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layalee
 
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Quote layalee Replybullet Topic: Jesus dying for our sins
    Posted: 12 January 2008 at 10:09pm

I am trying to hear from Christians or (anyone else that believes that Jesus died for our sins) more of the meaning behind this concept/belief. I have a basic understanding of why individuals believe why this event has taken place, and the reason behind it, but it still leaves me unsure how one fully accepts the concept. So I had a few question. I will discuss of what I learnt and then I will follow with the questions....

 What is being claimed is that Jesus had to die so that he will be able to wash away our sins and so that we will be forgiven. To follow God law- as the christian view is-  the punishment for sin is death. And by Jesus dying he saved us and sacrificed himself in order that we can continue to live on earth, giving us another chance to do the 'right thing' so that we have a chance of going to heaven. Also it is claimed that Jesus is God in the flesh. So God is our ultimate savior, but God had to be in man form on order to save us.

What I wrote above is how I understand the concept in a nutshell. If I have a misunderstanding of this Christian concept can someone please re-explain.

Now here are my questions..

1)How can the sacrifice of a MAN- even if he was sinless and his blood is considered to hold the spirit of God- wash away ANOTHER MAN sins??

Christians say that Jesus sacrifice relates to the sacrifice and offerings that were done in the times of the old testment. Animals were sacrificed in replacement for humans, and the animal death were symbolic to show that indeed the consequence of sin was death. The offerings were done to show their sign of repentance. (again, If I'm misunderstanding something can someone please re-explain).

But what's important to know is that God did not desire these offerings. God really wanted to be obeyed. Verses in the Old testament concludes this fact.

1 samual 15:22 'But Samual replied: Does the Lord delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices as much as in the obeying the voice of the Lord? To obey is better than sacrifice and to heed is better than the fat of rams'.

Psalm 40:6  ' Sacrfice and offerings you did not desire, but my ears you have pierced burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not require.

2) So if God desired us to follow his law and the offerings did not hold much 'weight' with God, why would all of a sudden the blood shed of man, God best creation- serves as a sacrifice that God will be so pleased with, when God really wants each individual to decide to follow the right path on his own? 

The claim is that Jesus blood was eternal because he was sinless. He was sinless because he was also the flesh of God, and God is eternal.

3)But there were men in the Bible before Jesus that God gave much praise to, so why did they have to wait until Jesus sacrifice?

Job 2:3 ' Then the Lord said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright man who fears God and shuns evil. And he still maintains is integrity though you incited me against him to ruin him WITHOUT ANY REASON'

Without true repentence blood shed means nothing!

The sacrifice of the animal and laying our hands in the blood were to show that we identify with the death and to HELP US UNDERSTAND our repentance.

final note- I read to gain knowledge. Even though I turn to both the Quran and the Bible ( mainly the old testament). I will never deny the wisdom that is indeed in the Bible. In fact Allah(swt) has told me to embrace the Torah.

Do I feel that Jesus (p.b.u.h) is a great man, Yes I indeed do.

Did he suffer alot to make sure we receive the message that God wanted to be sent to others? Yes! I believe so and I am really grateful from the bottom of my heart!

But ALL the prophets did work that I am grateful for from the bottom of my heart!

I am left believing that true repentance is more important then anything else. If it's not in my heart, no blood shed will ever save me!

4)Christian dogma says that if I do not accept Jesus as my savior then I am damn. But if I believe and accept God as my savior, and I am grateful for what Jesus(p.b.u.h) has done as a messenger, and (Christians already claim that Jesus is God in the flesh) then why am I still damn according to Christians?

With what shall I approach the Lord,
Do homage to God on high?
Shall I approach Him with burnt offerings,
With calves a year old?
Would the Lord be pleased with thousands of rams,
With myriads of streams of oil?
Shall I give my firstborn for my transgression,
The fruit of my body for my sins?
Man has told you what is good.
But what does the Lord require of you?
Only to do justice
And to love goodness,
And to walk humbly with your God (Micah 6:6-8).

Many blessings to all my sisters and brothers.

Layalee

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Quote believer Replybullet Posted: 13 January 2008 at 7:38am

Jesus' sacrifice has given us strength to fight sin.  On our own none of us is holy enough to be in the presence of GOD.  No matter how many good deeds we do, how much we pray, ask forgiveness, we do not measure up.

Something has to be paid for sin.  GOD was willing to give us His Son.  All the sacrifices of the perfect lamb of the Old Testament are a forshadowing of the sacrifice of Jesus.

Muslims keep bringing up the people before Jesus having to wait.  We all have to wait until the final judgement day.

Romans 2

6God "will give to each person according to what he has done." 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11For God does not show favoritism.

12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
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layalee
 
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Quote layalee Replybullet Posted: 13 January 2008 at 9:27am
Originally posted by believer

Jesus' sacrifice has given us strength to fight sin.  On our own none of us is holy enough to be in the presence of GOD. 

Romans 2

6God "will give to each person according to what he has done." 7To those who by persistence in doing good seek glory, honor and immortality, he will give eternal life. 8But for those who are self-seeking and who reject the truth and follow evil, there will be wrath and anger. 9There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11For God does not show favoritism.

12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law, 15since they show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts, their consciences also bearing witness, and their thoughts now accusing, now even defending them.) 16This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

Believer you say: 'Jesus' sacrifice has given us strength to fight sin.' 

so my question is from that statement:

How does Jesus sacrifice gives us strength?

Believer you say: 'On our own none of us is holy enough to be in the presence of GOD. '

You even provide a supporting verse from the Bible. While first reading it, it appeard as if it contradicted your statement, especially these verses:

Romans

'12All who sin apart from the law will also perish apart from the law, and all who sin under the law will be judged by the law. 13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous.'

My first impression from reading those verses is that every individidual will be judge by ones own actions. Based on how they carrried their life and the right and wrong they done.

But then I get confused when I read the following verse:

Romans

16This will take place on the day when God will judge men's secrets through Jesus Christ, as my gospel declares.

I don't understand this. Where is the fairness and justice at if we as individuals have to be judged through another man??

In my opinion it kinda contradicts the previous verses. If I'm misunderstanding the verse please kindly explain it.

So Believer if you can, do you mind further explaining some of the points I wrote.

Also I will like to challenge you and ask that you answer a question or two that I have in bold in my original first posting.

Thanks in advance.

Layalee

 

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layalee
 
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Quote layalee Replybullet Posted: 13 January 2008 at 9:10pm
I really wanted some answers to the questions I presented so I posted my same original mesage on a Christian forum. This particular posting provided a better view point of some Christian theory's that anyone have ever presented ( or maybe I cared to look for) to me. While I will never let go of my muslim faith, Insh'Allah, and my belief that there is only one God, I find these are some interesting responses. I posted this so that I can share some view points with anyone else that were looking for a response to the questions I asked.
 
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by layalee View Post
I am not a Christian. I am new to the group. I come in peace. I just ask that members respect me as I will respect others. Thank you,


Welcome Layalee. These are excellent quesitons!!! I think all Christians should consider these questions, not just non-Christians. Unfortunately many Christians do not have the time to study these questions as they ought to be studied. Therefore many denominations send folks, like me, to seminary for 8 eights to study and then call us to be their pastors. The reason I am mentioning this is that a lot of these questions are still being answered for me and it wasn't until several years of university that I began to see just how big they are!

Now guessing by some hints from your post, since there is no faith icon by your name, you are Muslim? So you may have some different perspectives than we do on scripture, so keep in mind I am only trying to explain the Christian perspective on scripture, which does not necessarily mean the only perspective.


Quote:
Originally Posted by layalee View Post
What is being claimed is that Jesus had to die so that he will be able to wash away our sins and so that we will be forgiven. To follow God law- as the christian view is- the punishment for sin is death.


While many Christians claim this, it is not precisely the case.

Christian have a doctrine called Original Sin. Sin (non-plural) is not acts or behaviors that are considered bad. Rather sin is a state of existence. Original sin expresses our separation from God. The story of Adam and Eve shows to us humanity's desire to be God in God's place. In order to be our own God, we turn away and reject God. This is what happened in the story of the Garden. When Adam and Eve ate of the fruit, they had already ruined their relationships with God, with each other and with the rest of creation. The first thing that God says to them once they had ate was, "Where are you?". They had separated themselves from God. And then when God asks what had happened, they start blaming each other. The "punishments" that God describes are not punishments that God lays upon them, but the result of their own actions. It was us who turned from God and chose death over life. This what our doctrine of Original Sin expresses.

Quote:
Originally Posted by layalee View Post
And by Jesus dying he saved us and sacrificed himself in order that we can continue to live on earth, giving us another chance to do the 'right thing' so that we have a chance of going to heaven.


Again, this is not precisely what Christians believe. Christ's act of salvation is not about giving us another chance to get it right but about justification (salvation). We cannot ever do enough good works to earn our salvation. Only God, in infinite mercy and grace, can save us. We do the right thing in life as a response of praise and thanksgiving to God for granting us this free and undeserved gift of grace.


[quote=layalee;42547777]Also it is claimed that Jesus is God in the flesh. So God is our ultimate savior, but God had to be in man form on order to save us.[/quote[

Christian don't claim that God had become incarnate, but the God chose this as our means of salvation. Later in it will become more clear why God chose this means.
Quote:
Originally Posted by layalee View Post
1)How can the sacrifice of a MAN- even if he was sinless and his blood is considered to hold the spirit of God- wash away ANOTHER MAN sins??
Christians say that Jesus sacrifice relates to the sacrifice and offerings that were done in the times of the old testment. Animals were sacrificed in replacement for humans, and the animal death were symbolic to show that indeed the consequence of sin was death. The offerings were done to show their sign of repentance. (again, If I'm misunderstanding something can someone please re-explain).

Old Testament Sacrifice is one of the most mis-understood concepts in the Bible. At the seminary at attend, one of the professors is one of the foremost experts in the world on the Old Testament practice of sacrifice and how it relates to the New Testament.

It was not the death of the animal that washed away sins in the Old Testament. It was the blood being sprinkled on the people. The Ancient Hebrews believed that the life blood of any living thing had the power to wash away sin. The death of the animal was only necessary in so far as it granted access to the blood. Once the sacrificial animal had been slaughtered the Priest would take its blood and sprinkle it on the people to cleanse them of their sin.

Now as far as the issues of the sacrifice of a man atoning for the sin of another man. No, we do not believe. However, Christians believe that Christ was God, and thus is was God who was on the cross and died. It was through the very death and resurrection of God that we are saved. More on this later.

Quote:
Originally Posted by layalee View Post
But what's important to know is that God did not desire these offerings. God really wanted to be obeyed. Verses in the Old testament concludes this fact.
1 samual 15:22 'But Samual replied: Does the Lord delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices as much as in the obeying the voice of the Lord? To obey is better than sacrifice and to heed is better than the fat of rams'.
Psalm 40:6 ' Sacrfice and offerings you did not desire, but my ears you have pierced burnt offerings and sin offerings you did not require.


Yes, these two verses seem to say that God does not want sacrifices, however much of the Torah is about explaining how to properly make correct sacrifices which the Ancient Hebrews believed, that through the sprinkling of the life blood, that they would be made pure.

Quote:
Originally Posted by layalee View Post
2) So if God desired us to follow his law and the offerings did not hold much 'weight' with God, why would all of a sudden the blood shed of man, God best creation- serves as a sacrifice that God will be so pleased with, when God really wants each individual to decide to follow the right path on his own?
The claim is that Jesus blood was eternal because he was sinless. He was sinless because he was also the flesh of God, and God is eternal.

The sprinkling of God's blood, not just a man's blood, was understood by the early church to be blood that was sufficient to purify all the sin of all creation.

However, the sacrifice of Christ was not in being a sacrifice of purification. This was, indeed part of it, but rather it the sacrifice began much sooner than on the cross. And to be clear, it was not God who put Christ, or in other words Godself, to death on the cross. Christ doctrine is that humanity put the incarnate God to death.

And while God does indeed want us to follow the "right path" it is impossible. For as much as we strive to save ourselves through our own righteoussness, it will never be sufficient to save us. Therefore we are dependent wholly on the righteousness of God to save us.


Quote:
Originally Posted by layalee View Post
3)But there were men in the Bible before Jesus that God gave much praise to, so why did they have to wait until Jesus sacrifice?
Job 2:3 ' Then the Lord said to Satan, "Have you considered my servant Job? There is no one on earth like him; he is blameless and upright man who fears God and shuns evil. And he still maintains is integrity though you incited me against him to ruin him WITHOUT ANY REASON'
Without true repentence blood shed means nothing!
The sacrifice of the animal and laying our hands in the blood were to show that we identify with the death and to HELP US UNDERSTAND our repentance.
final note- I read to gain knowledge.



Now, I have explained how sacrifice worked in the OT above, so I will explain what is our theology of atonement here. Now, I am a Lutheran and so my particular theology is based on that of Martin Luther's Theology of the Cross, who based his on scripture and the Early Church Fathers.

Now because of Original Sin we are alienated from God. As expressed in the story of the Garden of Eden, God's initial desire was to be with us. For us to live with God and to walk with in the same place as God.

However, humankind's choice was to turn and walk away. We rejected God in favour of being our own God. We were estranged from God like a husband and wife who are estranged from each other.

Now, despite this alienation and estrangement that humanity chose over God, God continued to call the people of Israel in the Old Testament to repent, to turn back towards God. Thus one of the major themes of the Old Testament is that Israel continually turning back towards and then away from God over and over. The story of Abraham, Isaac, Jospeh, Moses, David, the prophets Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel and so on.

However, as much as God called for Israel, and all creation, to return to God, it simply did not work. If Mohamed will come to the Mountain, then the Mountain must come to Mohamed. If Creation will not return to God, God will go and seek creation.

Christians believe that in the incarnation God so desired to be reunited with the creation that had its back to God, that he set aside, or sacrificed, his power, glory and kingship, in order to live as one of us. Its interesting that you mentioned Job earlier on. The story of Job is that God causes all these terrible things to happen to Job, and at the end of it all, Job tells God that he does not know what it is like to be human, that is God does not know what it is like to suffer. God responds to Job that job doesn't know what its like to God, which in the end is a rather unsatisfactory answer. However, if you consider God's answer to Job is the incarnation, that God coming to live and breathe as one of us, to be born, to grow up, and to die as one of us.

God's goal in the incarnation was reunite with us so that would know God as we were meant to know God. We we know God's face, God's voice, God's flesh, God's eyes. In the person of Jesus of Nazareth God came to us so that we would know God and so that God would be One with us in our living, breathing, suffering and dying. We would know that our life has meaning and value and that the creator has great love for that which is created.

And yet, despite God's coming to be with us a Jesus, creation, humanity still rejected God. In fact it was the religious leaders, the heads of society, the best that humanity had to offer that put God to death on the cross. With a resounding "NO", humanity proclaimed to God that we would rather be our own God's than have God live with us. We used our most powerful tool, our most finite answer to any problem. We killed God. However, despite our resounding "NO" God proclaimed a resounding "YES" to creation three day later. In Christ's resurrection, God proclaimed to us that death is not the final answer to life, God is the final answer to life.

And so it is that death is the option humanity chose, death is the answer to our sin. However, God resolved our misguided choice by removing death's finality. By proclaiming through the birth, life, death and resurrection of Christ that God has the final say on life. Not death and not us. And through Christ God's grants grace and mercy to all creation despite our rejection of God.

Quote:
Originally Posted by layalee View Post
Even though I turn to both the Quran and the Bible ( mainly the old testament). I will never deny the wisdom that is indeed in the Bible. In fact Allah(swt) has told me to embrace the Torah.
Do I feel that Jesus (p.b.u.h) is a great man, Yes I indeed do.
Did he suffer alot to make sure we receive the message that God wanted to be sent to others? Yes! I believe so and I am really grateful from the bottom of my heart!
But ALL the prophets did work that I am grateful for from the bottom of my heart!
I am left believing that true repentance is more important then anything else. If it's not in my heart, no blood shed will ever save me!
4)Christian dogma says that if I do not accept Jesus as my savior then I am damn. But if I believe and accept God as my savior, and I am grateful for what Jesus(p.b.u.h) has done as a messenger, and (Christians already claim that Jesus is God in the flesh) then why am I still damn according to Christians?
Christians may have at one time said this, however, again this is not the case. We can only proclaim that which we know. We know that Christ Saves Us, however, God in infinite wisdom and mercy may chose to also save others. As Christians we can proclaim that Christ Saves, but it is not up to us who God saves and who will be damned. That is up to God, we have no say in the end.

Christians will often refer to John 14, "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life, no one comes to the Father except by me". While some may say that Jesus prescribing our way to salvation, I see this as a descriptive declaration of the divinity of Christ. Jesus and the Father are One. Therefore to get to God means to get to Jesus also.

Quote:
Originally Posted by layalee View Post
Many blessings to all my sisters and brothers.
Layalee
I appologize for the poor transliteration, however, Assalamu alaikum layalee , or as we would say, Pax Vobiscum.

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Quote buddyman Replybullet Posted: 14 January 2008 at 12:59pm

Layalee,

You ask good questions...it actually goes even further then Jesus dying for our sins.

In Romans 5 it states that Jesus died for our sins. What does that mean?

Well, it means, that we are reconciled to God. We sinned against God...God did nothing. God was our enemy...we weren't God's enemies. So he sent God the Son (Jesus Christ) to die. Through out the Bible, we are told that this Annointed One would take away thesin of the world. Why? Well because sin can not be in the presence f God.

So when Jesus died for us, we became friends of God again. BUT it in Romans it says we are SAVED BY HIS LIFE.

 

We are RECONCILED by HIS DEATH, and SAVED BY HIS LIFE...so the free gift is this: Once you believe that Jesus died for your sins, the Holy Spirit is poured in to you heart. God then works through you. He restores us back in to his immage.

You literally have God inside of you!!! That is the good news!!!



Edited by buddyman
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Quote buddyman Replybullet Posted: 14 January 2008 at 1:06pm

Isaiah 7

10Then the LORD spoke again to Ahaz, saying,

 11"Ask a (R)sign for yourself from the LORD your God; make it deep as Sheol or high as heaven."

 12But Ahaz said, "I will not ask, nor will I test the LORD!"

 13Then he said, "Listen now, O (S)house of David! Is it too slight a thing for you to try the patience of men, that you will (T)try the patience of (U)my God as well?

 14"Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, (V)a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name [a](W)Immanuel.

 15"He will eat (X)curds and honey at the time He knows enough to refuse evil and choose good.

 16"(Y)For before the boy will know enough to refuse evil and choose good, (Z)the land whose two kings you dread will be forsaken.

Layalee,

Immanuel means "God with us"

Isaiah 9

1But there will be no more (A)gloom for her who was in anguish; in earlier times He (B)treated the (C)land of Zebulun and the land of Naphtali with contempt, but later on He shall make it glorious, by the way of the sea, on the other side of Jordan, Galilee of the Gentiles.
    2(D)The people who walk in darkness
         Will see a great light;
         Those who live in a dark land,
         The light will shine on them.
    3(E)You shall multiply the nation,
         You (F)shall increase their gladness;
         They will be glad in Your presence
         As with the gladness of harvest,
         As (G)men rejoice when they divide the spoil.
    4For (H)You shall break the yoke of their burden and the staff on their shoulders,
         The rod of their (I)oppressor, as at the battle of (J)Midian.
    5For every boot of the booted warrior in the battle tumult,
         And cloak rolled in blood, will be for burning, fuel for the fire.
    6For a (K)child will be born to us, a (L)son will be given to us;
         And the (M)government will rest (N)on His shoulders;
         And His name will be called (O)Wonderful Counselor, (P)Mighty God,
         Eterna l (Q)Father, Prince of (R)Peace.

    7There will be (S)no end to the increase of His government or of peace,
         On the (T)throne of David and over his kingdom,
         To establish it and to uphold it with (U)justice and righteousness
         From then on and forevermore
         (V)The zeal of the LORD of hosts will accomplish this.

You see...he will be called Mighty God...no other prophet has been calle Mighty God....

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Quote minuteman Replybullet Posted: 14 January 2008 at 7:23pm

 

 And His name will be called (O)Wonderful Counselor, (P)Mighty God,
         Eterna l
(Q)Father, Prince of (R)Peace.
    7There will be (S)no end to the increase of His government or of peace,
         On the (T)throne of David and over his kingdom,
         To establish it and to uphold it with (U)justice and righteousness
         From then on and forevermore
         (V)The zeal of the LORD of hosts will accomplish this.

I feel that there should be a comma between wonderful and counsellor in above quote. But let it be as it is shown.

None of these attributes fits Jesus. He was never mentioned as wonderful. He never counselled (consulted) any one, he was not the mighty god but his opponents (Jews) were mightier than him.

 He (Jesus) was not the eternal father. He was not a father at all of any kind. Nobody saw him as a father. He was not a prince except that he could be (child) from the line of king David. He was not seen as any prince of peace.

 the last few lines of the quote are absolutely wrong. Jesus was never sitting on the throne of david:

7There will be (S)no end to the increase of His government or of peace,
         On the (T)throne of David and over his kingdom,
         To establish it and to uphold it with (U)justice and righteousness

He never had any government even for a day or any peace. We have not seen (in the books) that Jesus was on the throne of David over his kingdom....

 The post is not reliably applicable to Jesus. It may apply to some one else. Please explain it. Unless all these words are symbolic, they cannot be reconciled.



Edited by minuteman
If any one is bad some one must suffer
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Quote believer Replybullet Posted: 14 January 2008 at 7:58pm

When a wrong is done a payment must be made, that is justice.

Jesus has atoned once and for all, any sin that I have in the past or future do.  God loves me so much that He gave His Son.  That gives anyone who believes amazing power to fight sin. 

 

 

 

 



Edited by believer
John 3
16"For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.
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