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Islamic INTRAfaith Dialogue
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Islamic INTRAfaith Dialogue
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Ali Zaki
 
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Quote Ali Zaki Replybullet Topic: Respect Others Please!
    Posted: 07 June 2005 at 7:25am

 "O people! We have created you male and female, and have made you nations and tribes that ye may know one another. The noblest of you in the sight of Allah is the best in conduct…" (49:13)

 Imam Ja’far al‑Sadiq (a) reported from the Prophet (s) who said: "Whoso­ever possesses in his heart 'asabiyyah (prejudice in any of its forms) even to the extent of a mustard seed, God will raise him on the Day of Resurrection with the (pagan) Bedouins of the Jahiliyyah (the pre‑Islamic era).”

[Al‑Kulayni, al‑Kafi, vol. 2, bab al ‘asabiyah, p. 308, hadith # 3]

I have seen posts on this forum lately such as;

- "are you scared that people would call you a lunatic?" (personal attack, name calling)

- " We ahlul-sunnah believe that all sahaba remained faithful unlike your cult who believes that all sahaba(99%) became renegades..." (typical school-yard name calling)

- " Look at this guy acting so smart and piouse. Come out of the darkness man..." (personal attack, insulting)

- " Even Ahmadi cult use our hadith the same way shia do." (prejudical, name calling (from someone who is not Ahmadi, and vehmently disagrees with them as well)).

All these posts have taken place within a 48 hr. time period. With mudslinging like this coming so fast and furtious, one can only imagine what future posts will bring.

This is even more suprising, as these inflammatory comments have been directed at posting which reflect the views of MAIN STREAM, 12er Shiism (or the Ja'fari Mathhab, if you prefer), which is accepted as a fifth Mathab by the vast majority of Sunni's worldwide (and the Grand Mufti of Al-Azhar University).

I am quite sure of the non-mainstream school of thought to which these comments belong, however, I will put this aside for now. I do request, however, that other members of this forum would also express their opinions regarding such behavior. In addition, I would request that the administrators of this site take a look at where these comments are coming from, and decide if this is the type of discussion that is encouraged in this forum.

REGARDING OBEDIENCE TO THE AHL'AL BAYT.

There are numerous Hadith for numerous sources. Here is just another to add to the discussion

" Abul Qasim Ja'far b. Muhammad reported to me from his father, from Sa'd b. Abdillah, from Ahmad b. Muhammad b. Isa, from al-Hasan b. Mahboob, from Hisham, from Murazim who reported from al-Sadiq, Ja'far b. Muhammad, peace be upon him, who reported that:

The Prophet, peace be upon him and his progeny, said: "What has happened to some people in my Ummah, who become cheerful and jubilant when Ibrahim and the progeny of Ibrahim are mentioned to them; but when I and my progeny are mentioned, they detest it and frown at it! By He Who sent me as a truthful Prophet, if a person dies after having performed the (good) deeds of 70 Prophets, but he has no liking for the authority of our Ahlul Bait, Allah will not accept his obligatory or voluntary acts of worship."

"The structure of faith is supported by four pillars endurance, conviction, justice and jihad."

Imam Ali (a.s.)
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Ayubi1187
 
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Quote Ayubi1187 Replybullet Posted: 07 June 2005 at 9:19am
People will not tear any tears for your cry when they read your posts. Its really amazing that you complain for nothing when you promote the kufr belief that all sahaba except few became renegades after prophets death and that the rightly guided calips Abu Bakr(ra), Umar(ra) and Uthman(ra) were usurpers and that Ali(ra) was the true caliph? And you have couple times made insults against the mother of the believers Aisha(ra).

"This is even more suprising, as these inflammatory comments have been directed at posting

which reflect the views of MAIN STREAM, 12er Shiism (or the Ja'fari Mathhab, if you prefer),

which is accepted as a fifth Mathab by the vast majority of Sunni's worldwide (and the Grand

Mufti of Al-Azhar University)."


Vast majority of Sunni's? Fifth Mathhab? please dont delude yourself. Its something never heard of in the islamic history. Its that the best you can get a fatwa from mufti appointed by Husni mubarak and the same mufti who supported the ban of hijab in france? Nothing from our greatest scholars? or you consider al-tantawi one of the greatest scholar of ahlu-sunnah? .

Edited by Ayubi1187
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aservant
 
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Quote aservant Replybullet Posted: 28 June 2005 at 8:49am

dear Ali Zaki

it is good to point out any bad language. i hope that you would be doing this job within your own group too.  i have not read any language dirtier than the language that shia have used in their litrature for Umar (RA) and Aisha (RA).  i hope that you would be fighting against all the dirty words in shia litrature.

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Ali Zaki
 
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Quote Ali Zaki Replybullet Posted: 28 June 2005 at 12:28pm

To Br. Aservent,

Some of the Shia go too far in this, and I believe it is wrong. However, we also SHOULD NOT cover up actual events of history that happened, the substance of which are agreed to by both Sunni and Shia.

Those who actively and openly opposed the Prophet (a.s.) or his Ahly Al'Bayt are cursed by Allah (s.w.a.), and that is enought for me. As for those who secretly opposed them, Allah will bring the truth to everyone sooner or later. Whether each individual wants to face this clear truth in this world or the next is up to them.

May Allah (s.w.a) guide all those who sincerely seek him to his path.

"The structure of faith is supported by four pillars endurance, conviction, justice and jihad."

Imam Ali (a.s.)
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aservant
 
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Quote aservant Replybullet Posted: 29 June 2005 at 2:32am

dear Ali Zaki

wait wait wait. which hsitory is agreed to by both sunni and shia?  the history told to us by shia?  no no no.

history tels us that the Holy Prophet peace be upon him himelf orderded Abu Bakar (ra) to be imam in masjid-e-nabvi.  and i am sure that what was the meaning of beeing imam in that masjid at that time.  and once even prophet peace be upon him intended to pray behind Abu Bakar (ra) but Abu Bakar (ra) did not let it happen.

by the way, do you realy understand the meaning to Ahly AlBayt?  in Quran Allah mentions about Ahly AlBayt of Nooh (as). who were they?  i tell you.  Aisha (ra) was more of Ahly AlBayt than Ali (ra).  Allah mentions in Quran about Abu Bakar (ra) with the title of  "THE COMPANION".  is there any other companion mentioned by Allah like this.  Ali (ra) gave his daughter in marriage to Omer (ra).  i read in one of your books that Ali (ra) had so much knowledge that actualy he was the teacher of Ambiya (as).  Astaghfirullah.  if he had this much knowledge then why did he give his daughter to Omer (ra) who in you books in munafiq (Astaghfirullah).

is this all the history that is agreed upon?

you mentiond that some people opposed Prophet peace be upon him secretly and Allah will bring that truth to us.  by the way who told you that secret that no one else other than the shias knows even before Allah has brought that "truth" to us?

a well wisher

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Ali Zaki
 
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Quote Ali Zaki Replybullet Posted: 29 June 2005 at 6:22am

Salam to Br. aservent,

I wonder where you get this information?

If you read my previous posts on the subject of the appointment of Imam Ali (a.s.) by the Holy Messenger (a.s.), (see Hmmmm, starting on page 5), I quoted sources for my statements from MAINSTREAM Sunni collections of hadith. I also gave tafseer of Quran (regarding the "verse of purification" ) from MAINSTREAM sunni scholars.

By contrast you (and others) are found of simply making statements like " once even prophet peace be upon him intended to pray behind Abu Bakar (ra)" without citing your sources. If these hadith come from the collections of hadith that you are found of (such as Ibn Tamian), then please cite the source so that I can verify where you are getting this from. I have asked (many, many times now) for sources, and have yet to receive a response.

By the way, I have talked to many Sunni brothers about this subject, and this is the first time that I heard any Sunni claim that Abu Bakr was APPOINTED by the Prophet (a.s.) as the first Caliph. So you deny that the Saqifa (election) took place? Isn't the Sunni position that the Prophet DID NOT appoint a successor? Please cite you sources for this information.

"i read in one of your books that Ali (ra) had so much knowledge that actualy he was the teacher of Ambiya (as)." WHICH BOOK?

Have I made myself clear on this point yet???

"The structure of faith is supported by four pillars endurance, conviction, justice and jihad."

Imam Ali (a.s.)
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Quote MOCKBA Replybullet Posted: 29 June 2005 at 6:38am

Bismillah

Wa'alaikumu Salaam Br Ali Zaki,

Without intending to add any fuel in the fire, i'd like to add that although i have some shia acquaintances, i've always wondered why, quite frequently, they attribute more attention to Ali (may Allah be pleased with him) than to Muhammad (may Allah's peace be upon him) himself.

Some of the sayings of the Prophet are re-attributed as sayings of Ali (and there is no doubt that he might have ben citing the Prophet, of which there is often no mention).

Ali (may Allah reward him) is well accepted and very much respected by Muslims, whereas Shia strictly refuse to give names like Abu Bakr, or Umar to their children.

I have always been, not so much ignorant, as uninterested to study details of shiah thought especially when widely practiced acts of self-beating are self-explanatory.

Why divide when our God is same and the Prophet (peace be upon him) is the same... so sad.



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Ali Zaki
 
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Quote Ali Zaki Replybullet Posted: 29 June 2005 at 7:22am

Salam to MOCKBA,

The Shia belive that the souce of ALL of the knowledge of the 12 Imams comes exclusively from Quran and Sunna (of the Prophet (a.s.)). You will often see (in Shia books of Hadith) that the Imam will say, "I heard such and such from my grandfather (or my ancestor)" and this refers only to the Holy Messenger (a.s.), and not the literal grandfather (except in the case of Imam Hassan (a.s.) and Imam Hussien (a.s.)). The reason that an anterior "chain of narration" is not cited when an Imam (a.s.) gives a hadith is because of the concept of infallibility of the Imams. Which means that if someone is massom (infallible), then it is not proper to ask them for a source as all of their words can be accepted on their own merits.

Imam Ali (a.s.) is famous for his speeches, however, you will notice that all of the statements he makes are supported by Quran and Hadith (even if he doesn't explicitly state that this is from Quran). This becomes even more clear if you read any of his famous dua'as (such as Duya Kumail http://al-islam.org/kumayl/english.htm) in which he combines Quranic concepts in such a beautiful and elegant way that noone can question doubt that it comes from a divine source (i.e., the Holy Quran).

If you study the early history of the Shia, you will notice Shia's with names like Abu Bakr and Omar. However, due to the polarization of the Umma after the tragedy of Karbala (and the Ummayids), this changed.

The Shia did not try to seperate themselves, and in fact, the Imams who were allowed to preach and teach in the open had students of many different backgrounds and schools of thought. The seperation of the Shia occured mainly due to the policies of the Ummayid and Abbasiad Caliphs who made it their policy to murder anyone who claimed to be a Shia, thus challenging their authority and legitimacy. The Shia today do not try to seperate themselves, however, they also do not hide their obedience to and love for the Ahly Al'Bayt (which many do not like to see expressed).

Salam

"The structure of faith is supported by four pillars endurance, conviction, justice and jihad."

Imam Ali (a.s.)
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