Active TopicsActive Topics  Display List of Forum MembersMemberlist  CalendarCalendar  Search The ForumSearch  HelpHelp
  RegisterRegister  LoginLogin  Old ForumOld Forum  Twitter  Facebook
Advertisement:
         

Comments & Complaints
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : General : Comments & Complaints
Message Icon Topic: Rules Lawyers Ruin Enjoyment(Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post Reply Post New Topic
Page  of 5 Next >>
Author Message
Angela
 Christian
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 11 July 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2555
bullet Topic: Rules Lawyers Ruin Enjoyment
    Posted: 19 December 2007 at 6:37am
There is a difference between Guidelines and RULES.

Simply put, I play a very complicated game on the weekends with a group of friends.  There are so many RULES that often it robs the game of enjoyment if you focus on them too much.  Therefore, 90% of the people who play this game will ignore certain rules to make the game more enjoyable.  Then there are 5% that ignore all rules, these people make the game unruly and are the very reason the rules exist.  Then there is that last 5% that must follow every rule specifically.

This 5% make the game just as unenjoyable as the 5% who insist on breaking every rule.

There comes a time and place where one must think, why was this rule put into place and does enforcing this rule defeat the purpose of the site.

Not all situations are the same. 

I for one am complaining because of the many "rules enforcements" that I PERSONALLY find ridiculous. 

The Saudi King (a secular monarch) gives a Christian Leader a sword.  Suddenly the post is in Intra-Faith where the CHRISTIANS cannot discuss what the symbolism might be perceived as.

The ORIGINAL post on the Girl of Qatif is placed where it belongs.  In the Women's section, this was a crime against a woman.  Its one that happens to WOMEN ALL OVER THE WORLD.  My point was to discuss not the legal mumbo-jumbo but the women's issues when it comes to female victims in society.  It wasn't a conversation intended to be about the Saudi Legal System as Israfil's was, but about the social plight of women.  I could care less about legal this and legal that.  I wanted to discuss women's rights, women's place in society and how women can change this condition that exists both in the strictest and freest of societies.

The GUIDELINES were put in place as a way of protecting the active and honest participants from the Trolls.  They are not meant to be enforced with an Iron Hand.  This is not a dictatorship.  I complain about things in general not JUST these examples.  The constant moving of forums, closing of forums about the same subject but different aspects.  The tolerance of the Umteen Million posts about Trinitarian Doctrine but other topics get slammed shut if they are similar. 

Oh, and the fact that NO ONE can comment on this forum to support or argue against my points.  Would you really want twenty different posts with the exact same arguments?  Or wouldn't you rather save a little server space (which is my profession, servers) and let others either agree or disagree.  20 people on one post is better than twenty different posts.

I think we should be able to back up or disagree on complaint posts.  If I could start a poll, I would to see how many people agree with me that the current environment is not conducive to open discussion.  I would also wonder how many believed that should be able to comment on compliant posts.  I go to three other Islamic sites.  None of them have this problem.  They allow user polls and real discussion on what people would like with the forum.

I personally WANT people to comment on this post and add their 2 cents.  I want them to be allowed to add their opinions so that ALL the moderators know that the active and longtime participates are tired of being treated like the shortterm troublemakers.

Rules Lawyers ruin it for everyone.  Sometimes, a rule is less a rule and more of just a  suggestion,  it not there to  enforce everytime.   This isn't obligatory stuff,  and not everything has been really effective for what it was intended.
IP IP Logged
peacemaker
Male Islam
Moderator Group
Moderator Group
Avatar

Joined: 29 December 2005
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3058
bullet Posted: 19 December 2007 at 10:46am

"Rules Lawyers ruin it for everyone.  Sometimes, a rule is less a rule and more of just a  suggestion,  it not there to  enforce everytime.  This isn't obligatory stuff,  and not everything has been really effective for what it was intended."

Many rules were derived facing the experiences we had that you would not understand nor can they be explained here. Many respectable members left this place due to the insults/violations caused by others. And yes, rules will be applied uniformly to  everyone.

This section alone has caused many personal attacks that will not be allowed any further. 

We interpret rules only for the sake of courtesy, we are not obligated to do so.

25. Your participation in discussion forums is a privilege and not a right. "Free Speech" here means that you don't pay for speaking your mind as opposed to any other belief(s) you might have. We reserve the right to remove any comment or comments that are not in line with the above rules, without giving reasons, notifications, or explanations to anyone.

Guidelines

The issues you raised here have already been explained before. Therefore, there is no point to go over that.

Today is the day of Eid, let us celebrate it and avoid arguing, please. 

Peace

Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?
Qur'an 55:13
IP IP Logged
Angela
 Christian
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 11 July 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2555
bullet Posted: 19 December 2007 at 10:43pm
Originally posted by peacemaker

Many rules were derived facing the experiences we had that you would not understand nor can they be explained here. Many respectable members left this place due to the insults/violations caused by others. And yes, rules will be applied uniformly to  everyone.


Of all the condescending insults.  I could never understand.  Just search for any forum here with the word Mormon in it and you see insult upon insult.  Many respectable members have also left because of the insanity of the rules enforcements.

BMZ, Andalus and the other Mods are not nearly as strict as you?  Wonder why???  You enforce the rules arbitrarily and NO YOU DO NOT ENFORCE THEM UNIFORMLY OR THE QUESTIONS ON THE TRINITY FORUM WOULD BE CLOSED. 

I disagree that the rules are enforced fairly.  Explain the Saudi King, Pope forum being moved to INTRAfaith instead of INTERfaith...or left in Current Events since they are both MONARCHS of countries.  Vatican City being a country if you didn't know.

This is ridiculous.  If you look at ever single one of the complaints about threads being moved, closed and/or posters being threatened with being banned because they dared comment in the wrong section.  Your name is attached.  Not the other Moderators. 

You consider this a personal attack and threaten to ban me again.  So be it, ban me.  You're a MODERATOR that is acting unfairly and its obvious to many that you go overboard and make arbitrary rulings that ARE NOT in the guidelines.  The Pope is Christian, the Saudi King Muslim, where in your precious guidelines does that Make it INTRAfaith.

Where in the guidelines does it say you have to close forums that are on different aspects of the same subject.  If that were true, you would have to close every topic on Jesus's nature, proofs of Muhammed's prophethood and the history of Islam/Christianity that pop up in Interfaith because they've all been done before.

No, you can't do that because it would restrict that NATURAL flow of conversation.  I'm not talking about saying whatever you want.  Which is what the free speech rule is about.  That rules INTENTIONS were to prevent trolls from insulting people, telling lies about faiths and flat out attacking posters.  Which I might add is covered under other rules.  It was not intended to restrict normal conversations between posters which is what you've been using it for. 

We have had many great and wonderful moderators who've managed to keep the spirit of this forum alive without slamming the lawbook down when they feel like it.  If the rules were enforced uniformly, I would maybe be less inclined to complain...which is the TITLE of this section.  But Non-Muslims are dealt with more harshly than recent reverts and Muslims.  Even if that Non-Muslim like Servetus, DavidC, et al have show they understand the topic just as well as a recent revert or longterm Muslim.  Belief and Understanding are two different things.

I have seen behavior from Sign*Reader (no offense to SR) be tolerated that would have gotten a non Muslim Banned.  Whisper insults Americans with impunity...though I've finally learned most of its sarcasm on steriods, its hard for others to separate why that's okay, yet challenging Saudi justice systems is not okay. Wasi posted a NAKED picture and a lie about a Muslim woman on this site...both a violation of you GUIDELINES and of Quranic Law.  Yet, its me who's being threatened with being banned.

You are not as fair and balanced as you think you are.  And that is my complaint.   And as a Moderator, I am making my complaint public so if I get banned...everyone knows WHY!

IP IP Logged
peacemaker
Male Islam
Moderator Group
Moderator Group
Avatar

Joined: 29 December 2005
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3058
bullet Posted: 20 December 2007 at 4:56am

"Of all the condescending insults. I could never understand. Just search for any forum here with the word Mormon in it and you see insult upon insult. Many respectable members have also left because of the insanity of the rules enforcements."

We regret those insults. If you remember, many times you were insulted, moderators, including me, were involved to help you; once a thread, started by a Muslim member, was closed when you objected that it was against your faith.

"BMZ, Andalus and the other Mods are not nearly as strict as you? Wonder why??? You enforce the rules arbitrarily and NO YOU DO NOT ENFORCE THEM UNIFORMLY OR THE QUESTIONS ON THE TRINITY FORUM WOULD BE CLOSED."

All moderators are unique and function in that manner, but we all have a common superior aim to make this forum a better place. We may have different ways or styles.

Due to time constraints and lack of moderators, I am not able to cover all forums. Sometimes I have not visited here for weeks. But, whenever I visit there and find anything in non-compliance I take steps. The best thing is to report when you see anything that violates rules.

Yes, I may appear strict. I am attached to IC not only from Dec 29, 2005. In fact, that was when I just visited the forum to see what was going on. When I saw the condition, I wanted to help it and didnít leave. In fact I have been a member of the main web site for more than 5 years. So, it is like motherly love that I carry. . . . All mothers are different, isnít it? And I am also a father in real life. . . . I have been more than a participant and moderator. . . .

"I disagree that the rules are enforced fairly. Explain the Saudi King, Pope forum being moved to INTRAfaith instead of INTERfaith...or left in Current Events since they are both MONARCHS of countries. Vatican City being a country if you didn't know."

I explained why I did what I did. I am not saying that I am perfect, and I also donít state that what I did must have been correct. Only some of the things donít seem to make sense, right? Why is there such an uproar over that? I am not a prophet. I am a human being. Have I not done any good thing here in my last 2 years. I donít see any thread over that. May I ask why?

"This is ridiculous. If you look at ever single one of the complaints about threads being moved, closed and/or posters being threatened with being banned because they dared comment in the wrong section. Your name is attached. Not the other Moderators."

How do you know it is only me who is doing all these things ? We work as "Moderator Group." This has been explained before. We work together. Admin is there. IC management is there. The public at IC is there. I have told them to explain to me in our private meetings if I am wrong somewhere. The public doesnít see all that. I also have the plan that the day I over step and make serious violations, I will ban myself. I am straight forward in my real life as well.

We receive numerous reports and Pms, and I am happy to say that most of the members at I C appear to be satisfied with what is being done here

Another thing is where did I threaten someone to ban? Please quote the post, and be specific. I have not used the word "ban" in any of my posts as far as I remember.

"You consider this a personal attack and threaten to ban me again. So be it, ban me."

You were never banned here. Where did I threaten to ban you? Please quote the post.

"You're a MODERATOR that is acting unfairly and its obvious to many that you go overboard and make arbitrary rulings that ARE NOT in the guidelines. The Pope is Christian, the Saudi King Muslim, where in your precious guidelines does that Make it INTRAfaith."

I have covered this issue before.

"Where in the guidelines does it say you have to close forums that are on different aspects of the same subject. If that were true, you would have to close every topic on Jesus's nature, proofs of Muhammed's prophethood and the history of Islam/Christianity that pop up in Interfaith because they've all been done before."

I have covered this as well.

"No, you can't do that because it would restrict that NATURAL flow of conversation. I'm not talking about saying whatever you want. Which is what the free speech rule is about. That rules INTENTIONS were to prevent trolls from insulting people, telling lies about faiths and flat out attacking posters. Which I might add is covered under other rules. It was not intended to restrict normal conversations between posters which is what you've been using it for."

We have tolerance at many levels here. Hundreds of threads have remained untouched where discussion goes on smoothly in all sections

"We have had many great and wonderful moderators who've managed to keep the spirit of this forum alive without slamming the lawbook down when they feel like it. If the rules were enforced uniformly, I would maybe be less inclined to complain...which is the TITLE of this section. But Non-Muslims are dealt with more harshly than recent reverts and Muslims. Even if that Non-Muslim like Servetus, DavidC, et al have show they understand the topic just as well as a recent revert or longterm Muslim. Belief and Understanding are two different things."

We try to enforce the rules uniformly. We are not perfect, though. Servetus, for example, has never been touched by any of us. I personally admire him, and he can be a good example for all of us the way he complies with rules.

"I have seen behavior from Sign*Reader (no offense to SR) be tolerated that would have gotten a non Muslim Banned. Whisper insults Americans with impunity...though I've finally learned most of its sarcasm on steriods, its hard for others to separate why that's okay, yet challenging Saudi justice systems is not okay. Wasi posted a NAKED picture and a lie about a Muslim woman on this site...both a violation of you GUIDELINES and of Quranic Law. Yet, its me who's being threatened with being banned."

Many Muslim members such as Hanan and Whisper were suspended for some time. Many Muslims have also been banned here. Many non-Muslims such as buddyman also continue to take part in spite of many violations.

Saudi justice system is currently being discussed in the Current Events section in the rape victim thread. If sectarian theological issues develop there, it will be moved to intra faith, even though I personally wish that that doesn't happen.

Moderators normally donít ban people individually. Banning is a decision that is done collectively. At that level, admin or/and IC management get involved.

"You are not as fair and balanced as you think you are. And that is my complaint. And as a Moderator, I am making my complaint public so if I get banned...everyone knows WHY!"

With all due respect, I may have flaws. I will never deny that. As a Muslim and human being, it is my duty to strive to become a better person each day, and I do that by the grace of Allah. And insha Allah, I will do more in the future.

I have never used "ban" word in any of my 1400+ posts. Please quote me one post. Yes, some guidelines may say so, and there is a reason why they say so. Yes, I have warned many here. But, I have never warned you as far as I remember, and I appreciate that you came up openly in this thread. I like discussions. I donít like name-calling and personal attacks.

We appreciate your participation here. I will be away now for some time.

May Allah guide us all.

Peace



Edited by peacemaker
Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?
Qur'an 55:13
IP IP Logged
martha
 
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 30 October 2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1141
bullet Posted: 20 December 2007 at 5:36am

I have a question please. Something I dont understand.

Over the course of some weeks, one particular member has repeatedly attacked me verbally on IC, saying that I am deluded, need to see the GP, that Iam in self-destruct mode. Is this not an insult to me? He does not personally know, so why does he do it?Why has this not been challenged by the moderators? I am a human being, and I have no idea why this member likes to insult me He gives the facts clearly enough on certain topics raised, and I have no qualms about this. He is very knowledgeable. But surely I dont deserve the insults he dishes out. So why is this not picked up?

IP IP Logged
minuteman
 
Senior Member
Senior  Member


Joined: 25 March 2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1642
bullet Posted: 20 December 2007 at 12:20pm

 

 Martha, I have followed your posts in some other threads and found them quite well written. You seem to have a good idea of the religion. I feel that your posts were very well edited showing that you are a person with good knowledge and determination for the good. May Allah bless all the more.

If any one is bad some one must suffer
IP IP Logged
Angel
 
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 03 July 2001
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6639
bullet Posted: 20 December 2007 at 5:17pm
banging my head on the desk screaming!!



Edited by Angel
~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~
IP IP Logged
karina
 
Starter
Starter


Joined: 19 December 2007
Location: Canada
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 6
bullet Posted: 20 December 2007 at 10:19pm

I have just joined this forum thios wekk, and I ma appalled y what's goign on.

I feel for Angela and others, and I may reconsider particpating.

This is so sad.

I  joined in the hope of getting closer to my religion and fellow muslims.

IP IP Logged
Page  of 5 Next >>
Post Reply Post New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

Disclaimer:
The opinions expressed herein contain positions and viewpoints that are not necessarily those of IslamiCity. This forum is offered to stimulate dialogue and discussion in our continuing mission of being an educational organization.
If there is any issue with any of the postings please email to icforum at islamicity.com or if you are a forum's member you can use the report button.

Note: The 99 names of Allah avatars are courtesy of www.arthafez.com

Advertisement:



Sponsored by:
Islamicity Membership Program:
IslamiCity Donation Program  http://www.islamicity.com/Donate
IslamiCity Arabic eLearning http://www.islamiCity.com/ArabAcademy
Complete Domain & Hosting Solutions www.icDomain.com
Home for Muslim Tunes www.icTunes.com
Islamic Video Collections www.islamiTV.com
IslamiCity Marriage Site www.icMarriage.com