Active TopicsActive Topics  Display List of Forum MembersMemberlist  CalendarCalendar  Search The ForumSearch  HelpHelp
  RegisterRegister  LoginLogin  Old ForumOld Forum  Twitter  Facebook
Advertisement:
         

Islamic INTRAfaith Dialogue
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Islamic INTRAfaith Dialogue
Message Icon Topic: A Return to Ignorance? Post Reply Post New Topic
Page  of 2 Next >>
Author Message
Ali Zaki
 
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 10 May 2005
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 217
Quote Ali Zaki Replybullet Topic: A Return to Ignorance?
    Posted: 02 June 2005 at 10:39am

"The Prophet of Islam, peace and blessings be upon him and his family, said: "Whosoever dies without recognizing the Imam of his time dies the death of the Jahiliyyah."[5]

COMMENTARY ON HADITH by the respect scholar Sayyid Mujtaba Musavi Lari

The reason for this is that during the Jahiliyyah pre-Islamic era of ignorance the people were polytheists; they knew nothing of either monotheism or of prophethood. This categorical declaration by the Prophet, peace and blessings be upon him and his family, shows the importance that he assigned to the Imamate, to the degree that if someone fails to place his spiritual life beneath the protective cover of a perfected ruler he is equivalent to one whose whole life was spent in the Jahiliyyah and then went unredeemed to his death."

[5.] Ahmad b. Hanbal, al-Musnad, p. 96.

SOURCE: http://al-islam.org/leadership/

If this hadith is accepted, what does it mean to our Sunni brothers? To those who do not accept the Imam of our Age (may Allah hasten his return) to be the leader of all Muslim, then who do you give this exalted leadership position to? Does this refer to the political head of state (i.e., Mr. Mubarak or Mr. Asad)???

"The structure of faith is supported by four pillars endurance, conviction, justice and jihad."

Imam Ali (a.s.)
IP IP Logged
MOCKBA
 
Moderator Group
Moderator Group
Avatar

Joined: 27 September 2000
Location: Malaysia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1410
Quote MOCKBA Replybullet Posted: 02 June 2005 at 8:44pm

Assalaamu'alaikum.

There are various ahadeeth on the concept of Islamic leadership, leaders (Imam, Khalif, Amir etc.), loyalty through allegiance and pledge (bay'ah) etc.    

To those who do not accept the Imam of our Age (may Allah hasten his return) to be the leader of all Muslim, then who do you give this exalted leadership position to? Does this refer to the political head of state (i.e., Mr. Mubarak or Mr. Asad)???

In the question above, you seem to be giving only two options: "Either you are with us or...".  Obviously Muslims cannot and should not accept leadership of someone imaginary and non-existent, on the other hand, that should not also mean that such role is to be asigned to Saddam Hussain or King Fahd. Perhaps we, world Muslims,  just do not have one at the moment.  

Imam Muslim (Rahimahullah) has related in his Sahih (3/4553) a Hadith on the authority of Hudhaifa ibn al-Yaman (Allah be pleased with him), who said: 

"People used to ask the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) about the good times, but I used to ask him about (the) bad times fearing lest they overtake me. I said, 'Messenger of Allah, we were in the midst of ignorance and evil, and then Allah brought us this good (time through Islam). Is there any bad time after this good one?' He said, 'Yes'. I asked, 'Will there be a good time again after that bad time?' He said, 'Yes, but therein will be a hidden evil.' I asked, 'What will be the evil hidden therein?' He said, '(That time will witness the rise of) the people who will adopt ways other than mine and seek guidance other than mine. You will know good points as well as bad points.' I asked, 'Will there be a bad time after this good one?' He said, 'Yes. (A time will come) when there will be people standing and inviting at the gates of Hell. Whoso responds to their call, they will throw them into the fire.' I said, 'Messenger of Allah (Peace be upon him), describe them for us.' He said, 'All right. They will be a people having the same complexion as ours and speaking our language.' I said, `Messenger of Allah (Peace be upon him), what do you suggest if I happen to live in their time?' He said, 'You should stick to the main body of the Muslims and their leader' I said, 'If they have no (such thing as the) main body of the Muslims and have no leader?' He said, 'Separate yourself from all these factions, though you may have to eat the roots of trees until death comes to you and you are in this state.'"

Just an opinion. 

 



Edited by MOCKBA
MOCKBA
IP IP Logged
Ali Zaki
 
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 10 May 2005
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 217
Quote Ali Zaki Replybullet Posted: 03 June 2005 at 7:21am

Salam Mocka,

" Obviously Muslims cannot and should not accept leadership of someone imaginary and non-existent, on the other hand, that should not also mean that such role is to be asigned to Saddam Hussain or King Fahd. Perhaps we, world Muslims,  just do not have one at the moment. "

Does the sun not exist because it is obscured by the clouds? No. It still gives light and warmth, although the physical object cannot be seen. But I don't want to dwell on this point, as this is advanced Calculus and we cannot even agree on the rules of basic mathmatics.

For any group to be effective, it must have an effective leader. The reason that the Muslim Umma can still call itself as such is because of the leadership of the Holy Messenger (p.b.u.h). The reason that we call ourself one Umma in name, however, we cannot accomplish anything is that we have lost that connection with the Prophet's leadership. If you agree with the above, then how do you propose that we re-establish this connection?

The position of the Shia is that the Prophet did nominate his successor. This is a logical position, and is also established by Quran and Hadith that are agreed upon. It is also known that each successive Imam also explicitly nominate his own successor (as Abu Bakr did). This is the "unbroken chain" which returns to the original authority of the Messenger. If you do not accept this, then you must propose and equally acceptable (or better) alternative.

Since their is no evidence to conclude that an election will produce the most competent or qualified leader (i.e., George Bush), then we must return to selection by the previous leader as the appropriate criteria. If this is the case, then who (According to the Sunni view) is our current leader which fulfills the position of "Caliphate"/Imam/Amir Al'Muminin, how was he selected and on what authority does he exercie this position? If this question cannot be answered, then thought should be given to the reason for this.

Salam

"The structure of faith is supported by four pillars endurance, conviction, justice and jihad."

Imam Ali (a.s.)
IP IP Logged
delight
 
Newbie
Newbie
Avatar

Joined: 11 May 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 20
Quote delight Replybullet Posted: 03 June 2005 at 10:26am
then who (According to the Sunni view) is our current leader which fulfills the position of "Caliphate"/Imam/Amir Al'Muminin, how was he selected and on what authority does he exercie this position? If this question cannot be answered, then thought should be given to the reason for this.
Ali Zaki

Who is the Imam of our time?
If an Imam can guide without being in power,like the 12th Imam,why do shia fight for the right of succession of Ali?
Ahmad b. Hanbal in his al-Musnad,included hadeeth without first verifying them.That is why it is not in the list of sahih books.
   Hazrat Abubakr appointed his successor because many people wanted Umar as even the first khalif,due to his popularity.
   But Hazrat Umar although wounded for a week,did not appoint his successor,but a selection committee.
   A successor is appointed ,when the leader is in his prime.So that people can get used to him.
    Not,as shia claim,in the last moments of leaders life

LOGIC IS SIMPLE OTHERWISE IT IS ARGUMENT.
IP IP Logged
Ali Zaki
 
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 10 May 2005
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 217
Quote Ali Zaki Replybullet Posted: 03 June 2005 at 11:21am

Salam Delight,

"If an Imam can guide without being in power,like the 12th Imam,why do shia fight for the right of succession of Ali?"

Sorry, I don't understand you're question. What does the question of whether or not the Prophet (p.b.u.h.) selected Imam Ali (a.s.) as his successor have to do with the method used to execute power by Imam Mahdi (May Allah hasten his return)? Clarification is needed.

Again, I would rather not dwell on the subject of the 12th Imam, as we need to establish a basic understanding and agreement to go into this subject (which we have failed to do up to this point, but I am still hopeful )

Regarding the Authenticity of Ahmad b. Hanbal

This is a common problem with discussing these issues, Delight (as you know.) The good old "Yes, we respect him as a Sunni scholar, but he was not very careful. What if I show you Hadith that you will not accept from the Saheeh books? Will this change you opinion? Do you not accept Ahmad b. Hanbal PERIOD? (or just for the many hadith he transmits about the Ahly Al-Bayt). SEE http://al-islam.org/mot/musnad/

How about al-Tirmidhi? (This case study will investigate the allegation that this hadith("I am the city of knowledge and 'Ali is its gate") was included by al-Tirmidhi and used to be in his Sahih till it mysteriously disappeared at some stage in history). http://al-islam.org/tahrif/cityofknowledge/index.htm

How about Sheiks al-Bukhari and Muslim?

http://al-islam.org/ask/7.html

I have tried to avoid this issue until now, however, I feel that your calling into question the credibility of this hadith has neccesitated addressing this issue. Also, I will say it before you do that there are similar problems among many Shia books of hadith as well. As a result, we must revert to the Science of Hadith for deriving the authenticity of hadith on a CASE BY CASE bais, and not simply dismissing or accepting a hadith based on the author of the collection.

In addition, if only one or two hadith had been narranted regarding the neccessity of having a leader and who the leader(s) are, then one could question the Shia position. However, due to the number hadith and the number of different sources, I find it hard to believe that the importance of the Ahly Al-Bayt (specifically) and the importance of leadership (in general) can be denied.

"A successor is appointed ,when the leader is in his prime.So that people can get used to him."  How about if a successor is appointed numerous times, in public, over many years?

"The structure of faith is supported by four pillars endurance, conviction, justice and jihad."

Imam Ali (a.s.)
IP IP Logged
MOCKBA
 
Moderator Group
Moderator Group
Avatar

Joined: 27 September 2000
Location: Malaysia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1410
Quote MOCKBA Replybullet Posted: 03 June 2005 at 7:16pm

Assalamu'alaikum Ali Zaki,

I agree with you that the subject of the clouded suns and minds should be put aside for some time.

Today's problem lies in not so much that we have lost connection with the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) but in the fact that we have forgotten Allaah. We dedicate time and exhaust ourselves with petty questions, we seek spiritual warmth from the unknown, we seek support and help from the corrupt leaders and we expect implementation of rightful conduct and submission to Islam from our neighbours... rarely reflecting on our own selves. As a result we lay intoxicated with self-pleasing metaphors trying to find a shortcut from the Straight Path. 

Before we, Muslims, establish order on a strong foundation in our personal lives, it is very unlikely that we are going to see a deserving leader or recognise him anytime soon.  

This is the Book; in it is guidance sure, without doubt, to those who fear Allah. (02:02)

 

MOCKBA
IP IP Logged
Ali Zaki
 
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 10 May 2005
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 217
Quote Ali Zaki Replybullet Posted: 06 June 2005 at 6:32am

Salam alakum wa Rahmatullah Hewa Barakatu Mockba,

I would like to say that I apprecitate you careful and thoughtful replies. I often hesitate to continue this thread, as I know that many of my Muslim brothers and sisters will misunderstand my motivations for doing so. I continue to post only to try and share my understanding with others, and in the hope that the knowledge will be beneficial to them.

The question of leadership is of vital importance in our Umma today. The reason that the question of successorship after the death of the Prophet is so important is testified to by history. One need only contemplate on why the Muslims were so united during his lifetime, and became divided immidiately after his death. This division is the root cause of our division today.

As a Muslim Umma, we had the choice to follow the guidance that the prophet had intended for us, or to ingore the prophets words. When we ignored the Prophet, here is the type of leaders we got, "

" Among[1] all the people the most detested before Allah are two persons. One is he who is devoted to his self. So he is deviated from the true path and loves speaking about (foul) innovations and inviting towards wrong path. He is therefore a nuisance for those who are enamoured of him, is himself misled from the guidance of those preceding him, misleads those who follow him in his life or after his death, carries the weight of others' sins and is entangled in his own misdeeds.

The other man is he who has picked up ignorance. He moves among the ignorant, is senseless in the thick of mischief and is blind to the advantages of peace. Those resembling like men have named him scholar but he is not so. He goes out early morning to collect things whose deficiency is better than plenty, till when he has quenched his thirst from polluted water and acquired meaningless things.

He sits among the people as a judge responsible for solving whatever is confusing to the others. If an ambiguous problem is presented before him he manages shabby argument about it of his own accord and passes judgement on its basis. In this way he is entangled in the confusion of doubts as in the spider's web, not knowing whether he was right or wrong. If he is right he fears lest he erred, while if he is wrong he hopes he is right. He is ignorant, wandering astray in ignorance and riding on carriages aimlessly moving in darkness. He did not try to find reality of knowledge. He scatters the traditions as the wind scatters the dry leaves.

By Allah, he is not capable of solving the problems that come to him nor is fit for the position assigned to him. Whatever he does not know he does not regard it worth knowing. He does not realise that what is beyond his reach is within the reach of others. If anything is not clear to him he keeps quiet over it because he knows his own ignorance. Lost lives are crying against his unjust verdicts, and properties (that have been wrongly disposed of) are grumbling against him.

I complain to Allah about persons who live ignorant and die misguided. For them nothing is more worthless than Qur'an if it is recited as it should be recited, nor anything more valuable than the Qur'an if its verses are removed from their places, nor anything more vicious than virtue nor more virtuous than vice."

NOTE- I am (certainly) not implying that these descriptions are applicable to any particulart individual.

I invite the members of this forum to read the above words of Imam Ali (a.s.) in speech #17 in Nagul Balagha, and decide for themselves whether or not these descriptions are applicable to any of the "Muslim Leaders" that came after the death of the Prophet until today.

So we have a clear choice today, as we did then on whom we should turn to for guidance and leadership. This issue effects each one of us in our daily lives.

Salam.

"The structure of faith is supported by four pillars endurance, conviction, justice and jihad."

Imam Ali (a.s.)
IP IP Logged
MOCKBA
 
Moderator Group
Moderator Group
Avatar

Joined: 27 September 2000
Location: Malaysia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1410
Quote MOCKBA Replybullet Posted: 06 June 2005 at 7:14am

Bismillah

Wa'alaikumu Salaam Brother Ali Zaki,

Jazzak Allahu Khair for your comment. May I also add that many answers to our concerns in terms of leadership and unity have been narrated by the Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) in his final sermon. We should go back to its content more often...

Ma'a Salaam

MOCKBA
IP IP Logged
Page  of 2 Next >>
Post Reply Post New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

Disclaimer:
The opinions expressed herein contain positions and viewpoints that are not necessarily those of IslamiCity. This forum is offered to stimulate dialogue and discussion in our continuing mission of being an educational organization.
If there is any issue with any of the postings please email to icforum at islamicity.com or if you are a forum's member you can use the report button.

Note: The 99 names of Allah avatars are courtesy of www.arthafez.com

Advertisement:



Sponsored by:
Islamicity Membership Program:
IslamiCity Donation Program  http://www.islamicity.com/Donate
IslamiCity Arabic eLearning http://www.islamiCity.com/ArabAcademy
Complete Domain & Hosting Solutions www.icDomain.com
Home for Muslim Tunes www.icTunes.com
Islamic Video Collections www.islamiTV.com
IslamiCity Marriage Site www.icMarriage.com