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Message Icon Topic: Rape victim gets 200 lashes Post Reply Post New Topic
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Israfil
 
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Quote Israfil Replybullet Posted: 27 November 2007 at 8:37am

Abuayisha let's break your comments down

1) You used a poor example of Rodney King which is (a) a different issue than this one and (b) you chose an an example of a repeat defender who was inappropriately beaten with excessive force. I again have to remind you that REGARDLESS of the crime, no lawgiver is justified in using excessive force beyond what is necessary to subdue the criminal.

2) You start the premise of your previous statement by saying:

As fathers aren’t we concerned and cautious about what our daughters wear?  If you tow someone’s car late at night, don’t you offer to call a cab for the individual?

(c) I'm not a father so I cannot relate and (d) If I were a father I would be concerned about what my daughter wears HOWEVER you must also take into consideration that the carelessness to extremely conservative varies from family to family so what you may think is appropriate or what not may not be equal to another family.

don’t you offer to call a cab for the individual? 

Where do you get these examples?

I think after reading your paragraph I understand what you are saying. You believe that SOME responsibility should be shared between the woman as well as the perps who committed the crime. In that respect I agree with you. I believe if this woman is aware that Saudi law prohibits such acts and continues to commit the act anyway, she is thus at least, partly responsible for her sentence. However, my main concern is what the Saudi Press had said about her which is, she invited the rape by her dress. As I mentioned before, regardless whether a woman is dressed skimpy or with nothing on (of course we have laws here against indecent exposure) gives no man any right to rape.

Kobe? Mike Tyson? Did you see what society did to them? It's bad enough that they're rich and black but one who supposedly, sexually assaults a woman who later claims rape (but she also gets pregnant after the whole ordeal after the unknown payout by Bryant) and also Tyson went to jail for what he did (which was also unproven). Those cases have extraneous implications but with this case, this is straightforward. I still believe Saudi society is an oppressive regime. When the family drives around in their bulletproof Mercedes in the slums of Arabia then, you know there is something wrong.

 

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abuayisha
 
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Quote abuayisha Replybullet Posted: 27 November 2007 at 9:20am

Originally posted by Israfil

 I still believe Saudi society is an oppressive regime. When the family drives around in their bulletproof Mercedes in the slums of Arabia then, you know there is something wrong.

Sure you do and thus your rush to judgment is expected, but by no means correct.

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Hayfa
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Quote Hayfa Replybullet Posted: 28 November 2007 at 7:05am

Yes we are all responsibilty for ourselves. And if a woman is raped due to her st**idity, ignorance, foolishness, etc. She pays the price by the actual event-the rape. 

Abuayisha, you are right that it is the predator -prey mentality that DOES exist. Although the most dangerous place for women is with people she knows as most rapes happen by people she knows. 

I think it is hard for many women to acknowledge this metalility of predator-prey. It is to address, acknowledge the "dark side" of humanity. People don't want to, cause its scary. I teach self-defense and for women it is really scary.  

But it most cases, rape is not proveable because its a "he said, she said" situation.

The thing is, from what I know in the case, the woman was gang-raped. Has to deal with that for the rest of her life. And is "punished' again not because she hurt other people-robbed or murdered someone but because she was really, really st**id.

When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi
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Israfil
 
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Quote Israfil Replybullet Posted: 28 November 2007 at 12:41pm

Hayfa I am (and am not) surprised by your recent posts.

I sincerely cannot believe the mentality here. There are in fact actual victims in the world. There are victims but there are also victims who contribute to their suffering and if I recall correctly, I believe I did a thread on this subject sometime long ago.

Hayfa your comment:

Yes we are all responsibilty for ourselves. And if a woman is raped due to her st**idity, ignorance, foolishness, etc. She pays the price by the actual event-the rape. 

We all don't know the actual details of the case as Abuayisha noted earlier and therefore, it is difficult to say whether our comments are true (or not). However, given the history of inequality of Saudi Arabia and in many other Muslim dominated countries we can therefore infer even for a moment that comments in the opposite (opposite in favor of these countries and their rules) that many disadvantaged women are taken advantaged of physically, mentally, spiritually, etc. I think Hayfa you have made a mistake in saying if she is raped due to her st**idity i.e. placing herself in a dangerous situation, your words are almost saying "she gets what she deserves."

Similarly, I made the comment about women in short skirts. If she wears a short skirt to a party where there is drunk men (with a lot of testosterone) and if she is raped, her st**idity has caused her thus. To me, this type of thinking is illogical and I'll tell you why:

1) To say what can and cannot a woman wears takes away individual responsibility and although we have moral principles within Islam, we must, in accordance to what God has given us naturally give humans that same right, that is freedom of expression.

2) We also understand that this "free" expression in itself is limited therefore we must clarify those limitations but must not make universal justifications if these limitations are exceeded except on a case by case analysis. To calrify, what this means is like the example I gave above we must first recognize that in a Muslim social setting wearing a short skirt is not only impermissible by law (in some countries) it is also setting oneself up to attract the wrong attention (this is setting the standar both lawfully, and also identifying our ethical standards) HOWEVER, if a rape occurs and especially if it creates physical and psychological harm and especially if the individual did not invite this harm we cannot say "well you get what you deserve."

In my opinion, being physically taken advantage of regardless of provocative dress still is unwarranted. How would you like it if I said the innocent Palestinians get what they deserve because they live in a hostile environment, because, they have the choice to move out the war zone. That would be an unfair analysis of the situation therefore I believe in order to make such an analysis we must udentify the variables (both internal and extraneous) that may affect the situation.

3) As mentioned above, there is no justification for unwarranted harm regardless whether we question the persons cognitive ability (and decision making). In my belief women, like men have a right to dress freely without repricussion (save what the law mandates) without backlash from the general public.

I think it is hard for many women to acknowledge this metalility of predator-prey. It is to address, acknowledge the "dark side" of humanity. People don't want to, cause its scary. I teach self-defense and for women it is really scary.  

Sister what world are you living in? Or are you assuming women are not aware based on your own experiences? At USC and the California State school systems many lecturers (mainly feminist) lecture on rape and a woman's reponsibilities in these situations. lecturers do not say a woman is absolved from responsibility, nor are they not looking at the so-called "predator and prey model" what they look at are the contributable factors to rape (because it not simply sexual). Sister, sad to say as a man to tell you (because you are an instructor) that sociologically speaking women have to go up against not just raped but the inequalities of life because we live primarily in a patriarchal society. So, it is not just rape in itself but also the factors of some men, treating women poorly.

rape is not proveable because its a "he said, she said" situation.

Sister that is a sad comment, and consequently wrong. Most rapes first and formost are unreported. In these cultural settings i.e. Arab/Central-South Asian culturals rape is definitely unreported due to backlash. If it is reported and if it is as you say "he said she said" it is most likely due to other variables not necessarily the accusation in itself. To say rape is unprovable to assert that there is no physical evidence which is not true. If you wish I can show some statistical evidence for my statement.

I've personally worked on rape cases and I'd like for you to tell the many women I've interviewed that there is no evidence of rape and that it is he said she said while they're at the rape clinics trying to repair the vaginal walls as well as the psychological trauma.

And is "punished' again not because she hurt other people-robbed or murdered someone but because she was really, really st**id.

Another sad statement.......

If men did that to my daughter, they would have to move to another country to keep me from having to blow their head off-Muslim or not. No woman deserves to be taken advantage of regardless of what situation she is in. Like I said, if the law has mandated her not to be alone in the company of a man she deserves to get punished for violating that mandate but she does not deserve to be gang raped. Notice the difference between the two? I can expect men to say those words sister but not you shame shame.

 

 

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ops154
 
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Quote ops154 Replybullet Posted: 28 November 2007 at 4:18pm

WOW!!! It is the womens fault for being raped? By that thinking I guess it is the Iraqi civilians fault for being killed because they stayed in a war zone. Glad you guys cleared this up.

 

One day you guys will educate yourselves and find that research has shown it's not about what the girl looks like but the feeling of power the rapist feels over the women. She can be covered from head to toe and still end up being raped. When that happens do you still try to justify the rape?

Get it through your heads that I don't support Bush or the Israeli's! Thank your lucky stars for America is here to stay!!!
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abuayisha
 
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Quote abuayisha Replybullet Posted: 28 November 2007 at 9:07pm
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genki
 
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Quote genki Replybullet Posted: 29 November 2007 at 12:05am
As for as this topic is concerned we need to examine it from its main points;

1. NO man nor woman is allowed to rape anybody UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCE. The woman or man could be naked and leading you on but if they stop or want to stop or say NO YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO FORCE YOURSELF.   This is what we all want to believe and know is true and ideal However reality is different.

2. When a woman or man presents themselves in a provocative setting and leading people etc though they may not want to be raped etc THEY ARE ATLEAST IN PART RESPONSIBILE FOR IT. We have to accept responsibility that our actions may have unwanted consequences.
Hence why a woman wearing almost nothing, had been drinking etc and in the company of men and maybe even leading them on making out etc is by default increasing all the risks of her being raped and she is partly responsible due to her dress code, behavior, surrounding and intoxications.  

3. When a woman/man is raped and she/he had not done anything wrong then the rapist deserves to be stoned!
AS in the time of the prophet where a woman was raped and the people were negotiating a monetary compensation and he stepped in and demanded justice!



Now from all the news etc on this particular case and lets assume for 1 second that maybe this girl had indeed been having an affair though she was married and the guy too and she was dressed "inappropriately" and both were raped then they should all die. The woman was having an affair ie adultery and guy too and the rapists for raping them.

However if her story was true ALLAH KNOWS then even if she may not have been dressed perfectly and in a car with the guy whom she claims she just wanted her photo back from and consequentially both were raped then so long as they werent commiting adultery etc then STONE the rapists away.

I have no love for rapists at all.
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Daniel Dworsky
 
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Quote Daniel Dworsky Replybullet Posted: 29 November 2007 at 1:10am
It's not any kind of "good ol' justice"
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