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Message Icon Topic: Why (and how) women cheat? Post Reply Post New Topic
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Ali Zaki
 
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Quote Ali Zaki Replybullet Posted: 22 June 2005 at 2:22pm

Salam to Abuayisha,

" What is your evidence that taking another wife for "lustful" reasons is prohibited in Islam?"

Exibit A- Quran

" "Say to the believing men that they cast down their looks and guard their private parts..." (24:30). "

First, it is well known that taking a "second look" at a non-muharam women or even a first look with the intention of seeing her "shape" (even if not covered) is haram. So, is it not logical to say that if looking with lust is forbidden then it can be assumed that marriage for this reason is ALSO forbidden.

"The believers are...those who protect their sexual organs except from their spouse's. . . Therefore, whosoever seeks more beyond that in sexual gratification], then they are the transgressors."(23: 5-6)

"except from their spouse's" mean current spouses. As a result, it is hard to see how "guard themselves" in the way that is discussed and still marry for lustful reasons.

The Prophet (a.s.), our guide and example

It is well known that the Prophet(a.s.) did not marry any of his wives for reasons of lust. There are many proofs for this, however, proof should not be required for a well known fact.

If you would like more evidence I will try to provide it (inshahAllah)

Salam

 

"The structure of faith is supported by four pillars endurance, conviction, justice and jihad."

Imam Ali (a.s.)
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abuayisha
 
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Quote abuayisha Replybullet Posted: 22 June 2005 at 4:47pm
Originally posted by Ali Zaki

If you would like more evidence I will try to provide it (inshahAllah)

Yes, may Allah reward you, because what you have mentioned thus far, isn't what I consider evidence.

If we define lust as, say, an intense desire, maybe polygamy is a means of avoiding haram actions if they do get married.  One has to avoid haram, especially in the case of marriage, thus keeping himself chaste.

With respect to looking - if ones intention is marriage, this is allowed:

Al-Mughira ibn Shu'bah said, I asked for a woman in marriage and Allah's Messenger (peace be on him) asked me whether I had looked at her. When I replied that I had not, he said 'Then look at her, for it may produce love between you.' I went to her parents and informed them of the Prophet's advice. They seemed to disapprove of the idea. Their daughter heard the conversation from her room and said, 'If the Prophet (peace be on him) has told you to look at me, then look.' I looked at her, and subsequently I married her. (Reported by Ahmad, Tirmidhi, Ibn Majah, Ibn Hibban, and Darimi.)

The Prophet (peace be on him) did not specify either to Mughirah or to the other man how much of the woman they were permitted to see. Some scholars are of the opinion that looking is limited to seeing the face and hands. However, it is permissible for anyone to see the face and hands as long as no desire is involved; therefore, if asking for woman in marriage is an exemption, obviously the man making the proposal should be able to see much more of the woman than that. The Prophet (peace be on him) said, "When one of you asks for woman in marriage, if he is able to look at what will induce him to marry her, he should do so." (Reported by Abu Daoud.)

Also, with respect to “intense desire” women are usually hidden behind veils and inside their houses, and women tend to be more even-tempered than men, and less active than men, and men have been given more physical strength and energy which makes men’s desires greater than woman’s and men are affected by these desires more than women,  a man is allowed to marry more partners than a woman is. This is one of the things that have been given exclusively to men and not to women, one of the things in which they have been given something more than women, just as they are also favoured over women in that only men can be Messengers, Prophets, caliphs, kings, governors and judges, and go out for jihad, etc., and men have been made qawwaamoon (protectors and maintainers) of women, taking care of them, working to provide them with the means of living, exposing themselves to danger, travelling about in the land and exposing themselves to all sorts of trials in order to take care of their wives. 



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abuayisha
 
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Quote abuayisha Replybullet Posted: 22 June 2005 at 7:45pm

Muslim narrated the following hadith:

Isnad: Suleiman bin 'abd alRahman and 'Ali bin Hujr » 'Ibsai bin Bunus » Hisham bin 'Urwa » 'Abd Allah bin 'Urwah » 'Urwah

Narrated 'Aisha:

Eleven women sat (at a place) and promised and contracted that they would not conceal anything of the news of their husbands.

The first one said, "My husband is like the meat of a lean weak camel which is kept on the top of a mountain which is neither easy to climb, nor is the meat fat, so that one might put up with the trouble of fetching it."

The second one said, "I shall not relate my husband's news, for I fear that I may not be able to finish his story, for if I describe him, I will mention all his defects and bad traits."

The third one said, "My husband is a tall man; if I describe him (and he hears of that) he will divorce me, and if I keep quiet, he will neither divorce me nor treat me as a wife."

The fourth one said, "My husband is a moderate person like the night of Tihama which is neither hot nor cold. I am neither afraid of him, nor am I discontented with him."

The fifth one said, "My husband, when entering (the house) is a leopard, and when going out, is a lion. He does not ask about whatever is in the house."

The sixth one said, "If my husband eats. he eats too much (leaving the dishes empty), and if he drinks he leaves nothing, and if he sleeps he sleeps alone (away from me) covered in garments and does not stretch his hands here and there so as to know how I fare (get along)."

The seventh one said, "My husband is a wrong-doer or weak and foolish. All the defects are present in him. He may injure your head or your body or may do both."

The eighth one said, "My husband is soft to touch like a rabbit and smells like a Zarnab (a kind of good smelling grass)."

The ninth one said, "My husband is a tall generous man wearing a long strap for carrying his sword. His ashes are abundant and his house is near to the people who would easily consult him."

The tenth one said, "My husband is Malik, and what is Malik? Malik is greater than whatever I say about him. (He is beyond and above all praises which can come to my mind). Most of his camels are kept at home (ready to be slaughtered for the guests) and only a few are taken to the pastures. When the camels hear the sound of the lute (or the tambourine) they realize that they are going to be slaughtered for the guests."

The eleventh one said, "My husband is Abu Zar and what is Abu Zar (i.e., what should I say about him)? He has given me many ornaments and my ears are heavily loaded with them and my arms have become fat (i.e., I have become fat). And he has pleased me, and I have become so happy that I feel proud of myself. He found me with my family who were mere owners of sheep and living in poverty, and brought me to a respected family having horses and camels and threshing and purifying grain . Whatever I say, he does not rebuke or insult me. When I sleep, I sleep till late in the morning, and when I drink water (or milk), I drink my fill. The mother of Abu Zar and what may one say in praise of the mother of Abu Zar? Her saddle bags were always full of provision and her house was spacious. As for the son of Abu Zar, what may one say of the son of Abu Zar? His bed is as narrow as an unsheathed sword and an arm of a kid (of four months) satisfies his hunger. As for the daughter of Abu Zar, she is obedient to her father and to her mother. She has a fat well-built body and that arouses the jealousy of her husband's other wife. As for the (maid) slave girl of Abu Zar, what may one say of the (maid) slavegirl of Abu Zar? She does not uncover our secrets but keeps them, and does not waste our provisions and does not leave the rubbish scattered everywhere in our house." The eleventh lady added, "One day it so happened that Abu Zar went out at the time when the milk was being milked from the animals, and he saw a woman who had two sons like two leopards playing with her two breasts. (On seeing her) he divorced me and married her. Thereafter I married a noble man who used to ride a fast tireless horse and keep a spear in his hand. He gave me many things, and also a pair of every kind of livestock and said, 'Eat (of this), O Um Zar, and give provision to your relatives." She added, "Yet, all those things which my second husband gave me could not fill the smallest utensil of Abu Zar's." 'Aisha then said: Allah's Apostle said to me, "I am to you as Abu Zar was to his wife Um Zar."

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Ali Zaki
 
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Quote Ali Zaki Replybullet Posted: 23 June 2005 at 7:24am

Salam to abuayisha,

I hesitate to discuss this, as my suspicion is that we are talking about something that is clear in Quran and Hadith and about which there is little debate between various schools of thought in Islam. I also suspect that there is (in reality) very little "daylight" between us on this, and we are just not carefully defining our terms.

Quickly,

If you define "Lust" simply as "sexual desire" (as many Western physicology books do), then there is (of course) no problem with this in general. Marriage is made easy and adaptable to our needs in Islam, as Allah (s.w.a.) knows well our needs. In fact, I have read some hadiths that specify a reward for a man having intercourse with his lawful wife that is similar to the reward for jihad al-zarir (the lesser jihad, or, fighting in the way of Allah (s.w.a.)).

However, Lust is commonly defined (by Muslims, Chrisitians, Jews) as an inordinant sexual desire, or, a "satanically inspired" desire. If a man looks at a women with lust that is 1.) non-muharram and 2.) without her knowledge and permission then this is clearly forbidden (based on ayat previously quoted). If a man is looking at a women in a controlled setting, with the clear and sincere intention of marriage and with her (and in some cases her fathers) permission, then this is a different matter all together.

In an Islamic society, men and women do not engage in joking, flirting behavior, etc. This is to prevent inordinant, destructive or unatural desires from forming or being acted upon. Since you also live in the U.S., you know that free and open contact between non-muharam men and women is everywhere you go. This is not based on religious princples, but rather, animalistic tendencies that exist in every person if not controlled.

Regarding the "11th", I do not accept this part of the hadith. Abu Zar (may Allah be pleased with him) was a pious and respect companion of the Holy Messenger (a.s.) and would not divorce his wife because he "happened to see" a more physically attractive women. This is the behavior of oppresive rulers like Yazid, not a noble and respected companion of the Prophet (a.s.). If you look into the chain of narration, I'm sure you will find some individuals with questionable credibility.

Salam

"The structure of faith is supported by four pillars endurance, conviction, justice and jihad."

Imam Ali (a.s.)
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abuayisha
 
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Quote abuayisha Replybullet Posted: 23 June 2005 at 11:15am

My basic issue here is that we must exercise extreme caution when saying something is forbidden in Islam.  You asserted that "If a man is simply wanting to marry a second, third or fourth wife for lustful reasons, then this is prohibited in Islam" and I do not believe your statement is supported by textual evidence.  Certainly, I suppose we can say that as a result of not lowering the gaze, one may became "satanically inspired" but does this mean his subsequent marriage is forbidden? 

 

 



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Ali Zaki
 
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Quote Ali Zaki Replybullet Posted: 23 June 2005 at 11:33am

Salam to Abuayisha,

With all due respect, if you want an answer according to Shira, then ask a Muslim scholar that you respect and not me. I am not "making a Fatwa", nor am I qualified to do so.

Notice, my definition of Lust was defined as a sexually desire that is inordinant or satanically inspired. Based on this, I don't think there is any controversy, and I'm not trying to be controversial. The Holy Quran, in several places (although I can't put my finger on the exact verse right now, and I'm reading it in English) condemns all types of lustful, sexual behavior and cautions against it. Again, I suspect that we are just mixing up our definitions here.

Salam

"The structure of faith is supported by four pillars endurance, conviction, justice and jihad."

Imam Ali (a.s.)
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abuayisha
 
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Quote abuayisha Replybullet Posted: 23 June 2005 at 1:09pm
Originally posted by Ali Zaki

 The Holy Quran, in several places (although I can't put my finger on the exact verse right now, and I'm reading it in English) condemns all types of lustful, sexual behavior and cautions against it.

Are you saying that the verse you can't put your finger on, condemns lustful, sexual behavior between a man and his second, third or fourth wife?  Because this is the issue, not terminology, and, that you understand the importance of having proof for your assertions.  May Allah, Most High, bless you - your point about asking a scholar is well taken.

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Quote ZamanH Replybullet Posted: 24 June 2005 at 6:14am

So you are saying that a man, in the end, is like a dog and cannot control himself if polygamy is banned??? Then why not have this for women too? That way it is fair for all.

Men are just as much like dogs as women are as like ...

Men and women are significantly different. Equality of rights don't imply their identicality. Man and women are very different (both physically and mentally) and their responsibilities are different. What is right for one is not be neccessarily right for others. In Islam, one  (either of the men and women) has greater right over the other, here and there, but overall it evens out.



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An enemy of an enemy is a fickle friend.
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