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Message Icon Topic: Why (and how) women cheat? Post Reply Post New Topic
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Nausheen
 
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Quote Nausheen Replybullet Posted: 11 June 2005 at 5:34am

 

Looks like you dont have a sister or any female family member who you could be close with to the level of friendship. This could be one of the reason for your various posts against women.

Originally posted by ZamanH

By the way, I don't accept man betrays his wife/group by having sex outside marriage/group, unlike women.

Very  immature to say the least. Are u talking in regards to Muslim societies, or people in general? Or are u generalizing over a small group of people you have known?

In most of the muslims households, women do not go out unescorted. They do not let 'men' enter their homes when they are alone ... They have less chances of cheating than men ( and am not saying, men are given to cheating, just that your proportionality analysis is wrong).

 

Originally posted by ZamanH

Sex is not just a biological activity, at least in human beings it is used to convey the message of living together.

Come to the west! People prefer freedom to sharing.

Further, perhaps u have not heard of 'one night stands'?  

Originally posted by ZamanH

Unless incest is allowed, one of them has to leave the original home to live with the other partner. In almost all the societies, women move to the house of their spouses (and not the man).

Now this is confusing. If two ppl were having an affair, two ppl were cheating on two other, how can u blame the woman alone?

 

Originally posted by ZamanH

A man can only betray his wife, if he refuses to provide for her or protect her, even though he can do so.

A man betrays his wife when he looks at other women ... the prophet(saw) has said, if you look at other women, then go to your wife, she has all what this one has.

Originally posted by ZamanH

If a man has sex outside marriage, at worst, he can be deceiving another man, but not his own wife.

If he brings AIDS he is risking her life, and that amounts to deceiving and more ....

Polygamy cannot be justified by adultery.

Wanu nazzilu minal Qurani ma huwa
Shafaa un wa rahmatun lil mo'mineena
wa la yaziduzzalimeena illa khasara.
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ZamanH
 
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Quote ZamanH Replybullet Posted: 13 June 2005 at 11:05am
Originally posted by Nausheen

 

Originally posted by ZamanH

By the way, I don't accept man betrays his wife/group by having sex outside marriage/group, unlike women.

Very  immature to say the least. Are u talking in regards to Muslim societies, or people in general? Or are u generalizing over a small group of people you have known?

People in general.

Originally posted by Nausheen

In most of the muslims households, women do not go out unescorted. They do not let 'men' enter their homes when they are alone ... They have less chances of cheating than men ( and am not saying, men are given to cheating, just that your proportionality analysis is wrong).

Admittedly, in most societies more men have sex outside marriage compared to women. My point was, according to the article I have provided link to, more women have sex outside marriage than is generally thought (that is not my assessment, its the articles')

Originally posted by Nausheen

Originally posted by ZamanH

Sex is not just a biological activity, at least in human beings it is used to convey the message of living together.

Come to the west! People prefer freedom to sharing.

Further, perhaps u have not heard of 'one night stands'?  

My point was, minds of human beings are hardwired to think like that (that is the sense of belonging, love, etc and the pledge of living together) at the time of intercourse. I was talking about instincts. That gives people pleasure and satisfaction. Adulterers flirt with those "emotional messages" out of lust. And that is wrong. 

Originally posted by Nausheen

Originally posted by ZamanH

Unless incest is allowed, one of them has to leave the original home to live with the other partner. In almost all the societies, women move to the house of their spouses (and not the man).

Now this is confusing. If two ppl were having an affair, two ppl were cheating on two other, how can u blame the woman alone?

Your point is irrelevant to the text you have quoted from my earlier post. What I had said there in the quoted text is a undeniable fact and not even an opinion.

Originally posted by Nausheen

Originally posted by ZamanH

A man can only betray his wife, if he refuses to provide for her or protect her, even though he can do so.

A man betrays his wife when he looks at other women ... the prophet(saw) has said, if you look at other women, then go to your wife, she has all what this one has.

Did the Prophet  specifically said that he betrays his wife?? From what you have said, that is not apparent.

Originally posted by Nausheen

Originally posted by ZamanH

If a man has sex outside marriage, at worst, he can be deceiving another man, but not his own wife.

If he brings AIDS he is risking her life, and that amounts to deceiving and more ....

Yes, I agree, that is a valid point. My point was, assuming there is no AIDS or STDs etc. man cannot betray his wife just by having sex outside marriage, while the same is not true about women.

Originally posted by Nausheen

Polygamy cannot be justified by adultery.

I WAS NOT JUSTIFYING ADULTERY.Dammit.A man who commits adultery IS certainly wrong. The entire arguement is over the reason as to  WHY is he wrong. My point is, he is wrong because he decieves father/husband/family of the woman he commits adultery with,only. But he certainly does not betrays his wife by doing that.

Although, Prophet did warn women about adultery, while explaining to them their duties to their husbands, in his Last Sermon; he was notably silent about it while highlighting the duties of men towards their wives. If  a man really betrays his wife at all by having sex with another woman (that I believe is a modern western concept), it certainly won't have been permitted in Islam for men to have more than one wife or to have intercourse with female slaves.



Edited by ZamanH
An enemy of an enemy is a fickle friend.
There will be more women in hell than men.
..for persecution is worse than the slaughter of the enemy..(Quran 2:191)
Heaven lies under mother's feet
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ZamanH
 
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Quote ZamanH Replybullet Posted: 13 June 2005 at 11:38pm

Originally posted by Jenni

And most men who cheat don't simply marry another woman, they sleep with another woman outside of marraige or solicit prostitutes which is popular in India.

I have been living in India all my life and I didn't know that.

Though, it is certainly not more popular here than it is elsewhere (though it might be slightly more than it is in Islamic countries).

An enemy of an enemy is a fickle friend.
There will be more women in hell than men.
..for persecution is worse than the slaughter of the enemy..(Quran 2:191)
Heaven lies under mother's feet
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Jenni
 
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Quote Jenni Replybullet Posted: 14 June 2005 at 8:00am
Zamanh don't you think that when you marry a woman you are signing a contract to be commited to her? It is about monogamy. And yes polygamy is allowed in our religon, but how many men can love, support and care for more than one woman? Many women know like me expect a verbal or written agreement from thier husband that they will not marry another woman, so monogamy is the only choice and marrying someone with a good heart who is HONEST is the best option. Do you really respect women, it seems to me you like the Hadith there will be more women in hell than men, why does that appeal to you so much??
You cant be a good muslim if you are not decent and have a cold heart. Be a decent and kind person and care for women and children and the elderly.
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Israfil
 
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Quote Israfil Replybullet Posted: 14 June 2005 at 7:58pm

ZamanH first and foremost As'Salaamu Alaikum Wa' Rahmatullahi Wa' Barakatuh!

Before  I began to criticize what your title heading pre-suppose and your remarks underlining your belief I wanted to read over your statements as well as your responses. From what you say the thing that stands out in this subject is that when a man cheats it is unlike the woman. Perhaps you may have made this statement in the general sense and in the sense of intensity. What I mean is, as you have said before that the effects of cheating when it comes to men are less intense then that of a woman. You mention that when a man cheats at best it hurts the other man. but if a woman cheats it at best hurts both the man and the woman as well as the cheater.

ZamanH I will give you the best advice I can give: Read the Qur'an and carefully study its spiritual principle behind marriage. Of course you should know that cheating is prohibited. For the purpose of this subject I will not too much refer to religion as much as strictly adhere to the statements made here. When a man cheats and is Muslim and is married he is transgressing from God's law. Transgression of God's law regardless of the intensities is the same because such sinful acts break God's covenant to man in Islam.

In the words of one of the world's greatess human beings Buddha once said "life is suffering." What that means is that to live is not to physically suffer but to suffer is to desire. Such desires exist as natural and unnatural. In this case to desire another man while being married is a type of desire that is suffering. To cure this is to be mindful of Allah and his promise. As Nausheen puts it in her last post the prophet has said that a good Muslim is one who is good to his wife. The whole point of Islam is to mirror the Creator: To be one and absolute as a unified body. Why do you think the sustaining of kinsfolk is so important? Why do you think marriage is important?

When we mention polygamy we have to look at its historical context because at that time polygamy was used as political means to bridge ties to other tribes. Even kings from different nations would marry the daughters of other kings from other nations while still married to their previous spouse. Because we live in modern times it is best to conform to monogamy because society has intellectually evolved into a more traditional family: one man, one woman. God even says in the Qur'an that it is best to stay with one woman and only uses polygamy as an additional option but in no way God puts polygamy before monogamy in the Qur'an. It is not only hypocritical of a man to say the intensity of chaeating is lesser than that of a woman but its not in accordance to Islamic teaching.

I can remember a time where a Muslimah told me she loved me and later called me one night and told me: "While I was with you I was also planning my marriage." Of course it hurt me but it greatlky hurts her because she has made an oath to God to have desire for her husband and no other and she violated that. As Allah as mentioned in his precious book that all who do sin and not reflect sincerely on what they've done she get a recourse of what they've done.

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DavidC
 
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Quote DavidC Replybullet Posted: 15 June 2005 at 12:17am
This thread is great. ZamanH makes a bad joke in the "men's" group
about women's guile and now all the women have tied him up in his own
remarks!

David C.
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ZamanH
 
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Quote ZamanH Replybullet Posted: 15 June 2005 at 4:14am

Walai Kum As Salaam,

From what you say the thing that stands out in this subject is that when a man cheats it is unlike the woman.

Yes, that is because men and women are different and their desires and responsibilities are different. I will even say they can cheat each other only in totally different manners.

 but if a woman cheats it at best hurts both the man and the woman as well as the cheater.

I am not sure about the cheater part. I don't know, perhaps because I am not a cheater :D.

When a man cheats and is Muslim and is married he is transgressing from God's law.

Yeah, I agree. Muslim should not need any "justification" for following any of the religious laws. I was answering to KIM. She had posted something about the subject, somewhere. I forgot where she had posted it, therefore I posted my opinion about it here (when she replied to my first post in this thread). I gave a secular justification of polygamy.

In the words of one of the world's greatess human beings Buddha

He was not great. He was a Kaafir. He taught about foregoing all of the desires. He preached celibacy etc. That is unislamic. Overall, I think people who renounce all the desires of life to be pretending to be great, while they are only simply weak-hearted to face life.

Why do you think the sustaining of kinsfolk is so important? Why do you think marriage is important?

That is to worship Allah. and Allah gave us emotions to help us worship Him. Our emotions are not end in themselves, they are only means.

Because we live in modern times it is best to conform to monogamy because society has intellectually evolved into a more traditional family:

I don't think people have intellectually "evolved". They have become more godless. World Wars were fought in the modern era. In the Cold War, both the "great" superpowers threaten to destroy all of the humanity (that cannot be denied, because they actively deployed their missiles to do it).In my country, I see most of the people who have adopted Western culture, care less about their parents and prefer to live in nuclear families. Look at the standard of the movies in the West, now. Now, they are openly showing nude/sex scenes. Even 30 years back, I think, that was unthinkable. The Western civilization is certainly in downswirl (ofcourse, no society is perfect, but West is certainly degrading very fast).

It is not only hypocritical of a man to say the intensity of chaeating is lesser than that of a woman but its not in accordance to Islamic teaching.

I accept, monogamy is better compared to polygamy. But what quality do you think I am simulating to be called a hypocrite (by the way)??!!! As far as I know, equating adultery by husband to that by a wife is a modern Western concept (that has nothing to do with Islam).

I can remember a time where a Muslimah told me she loved me and later called me one night and told me: "While I was with you I was also planning my marriage."

But she wasn't married to you.

An enemy of an enemy is a fickle friend.
There will be more women in hell than men.
..for persecution is worse than the slaughter of the enemy..(Quran 2:191)
Heaven lies under mother's feet
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ZamanH
 
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Quote ZamanH Replybullet Posted: 15 June 2005 at 4:37am

Zamanh don't you think that when you marry a woman you are signing a contract to be commited to her?

If I marry  a woman I will promise to take care for her and to be always with her, both in her joys and sorrows and not to leave her (of course, as long as she is married to me). I don't accept I will be leaving her if I marry (though I won't do it) another woman because husbands don't leave their homes after their marriage (while women do). My second wife will be coming to my home, I won't be going to her house.

Do you really respect women?

That depends on what do you mean by respect. If respecting (and loving) them means feeding and clothing them and not hurting them physically and  mentally(at least, not intentiontionaly), I do respect them.

I don't accept marrying another woman or, even committing adultery means disrespecting the first wife.

it seems to me you like the Hadith there will be more women in hell than men

Its not that it "appeals" to me. My signature is not for giving me  satisfaction but to warn others. Women are sensitive and as I had said earlier in this forum, to be good requires one to be insensitive to ones own inconveniences to alleviate the greater sufferings of others.

 



Edited by ZamanH
An enemy of an enemy is a fickle friend.
There will be more women in hell than men.
..for persecution is worse than the slaughter of the enemy..(Quran 2:191)
Heaven lies under mother's feet
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