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Interfaith Dialogue
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Interfaith Dialogue
Message Icon Topic: Ask an Atheist(Topic Closed Topic Closed) Post Reply Post New Topic
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Israfil
 
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bullet Posted: 18 November 2007 at 9:36am

Diagoras you said:

I make no claim that God does not exist

If you call yourself an atheist you are making a claim in of itself.

 just as I make no claim that the Flying Spaghetti Monster doesn't exist. I just don't consider hypothesis true before evidence has been presented for them.

How do you deny something before the claim is stated? Unless you have preconceived notions you cannot deny something before it is stated or unless I may be mistaken here. Also what hypothesis are you referring ? Perhaps I was confused.

Until I see good evidence for the God Hypothesis

It appears that you are coming here asking for proof when nobody has even made a claim to you in dialogue. Any postulation of any kind one must prove themselves. Now you made the indication of comparing the belief in God to that of phrenology. You didn't clarify how those two correlate and I'm surprise Herjihad didn't diassociate the two in detail in her previous post. In dialogue I've made no such claim that "God exist" I've simply responded to your inquiry in this post. You are the one that asked the question in the beginning (See your first post) so you provide evidence that God does not exist. Simply stating "I compare God to that of the Sphegetti monster and Phrenology" is not a good argument. Nor can you come to a website asking for proof when you have not presented none yourself.

If you start a thread with a weak hypothesis [in the form of a question] you must be prepare to defend it and so far the hypothesis is quite weak. I'd like for you to solidify your claim before I indulge myself.

Just to clarify [because I am a philosopher] an agnostic-atheist is a contradiction in terminology. You are either or and not both in between. You say that you are a "weak atheist" I'd like for you in addition to your claim [on why you disbelieve in God] define that clearly.

Lastly, you said:

I don't really understand what you are saying about subjective belief, are you saying that there is no such thing as objective reality?

I'm not saying there is no objective reality. I'm saying no statement claimed by anyone is objective. If I say:

"There is One God"

That is a subjective statement. Any personal claim can be manipulated based on the perception of the one postulating the claim. In addition, claims made personally are not universal, therefore, any claim made is therefore in context subjective in its own right and can be disproven. I am even fishy on associating attributes with God because I hold God for the most part, to be incomprehensible in any fashion but even saying that is also subjective and subject to change over time by me. Let me make it clear that even claims that are subjective does not necessitate them being invalid, it just means that they are not outside the influence of human perception.



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Israfil
 
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bullet Posted: 18 November 2007 at 9:55am

Who says spiritual beings don't exist?

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Diagoras
 
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bullet Posted: 18 November 2007 at 10:53am
Here's the definition: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weak_atheist

An atheist-agnostic acknowledges the possibility of a God's existence, but does not believe in one. Everyone is inherently atheist-agnostic to all claims.

I used phrenology to show that I have the same opinion towards the God Hypothesis (ie. a god exists) that I do towards phrenology, it might be true, but I see no evidence for it.

You probably hold the same view towards many things. I am pretty sure that you would describe yourself as a a-leprechaunist. Sure, leprechauns could exist, but you have seen no evidence for it and thus do not believe in them. Same with me and any postulated deity.

Burden of Proof may help clear this up: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Burden_of_proof#Science_and_oth er_uses

I quote from the article, "Outside a legal context, "burden of proof" means that someone suggesting a new theory or stating a claim must provide evidence to support it: it is not sufficient to say "you can't disprove this." Specifically, when anyone is making a bold claim, it is not someone else's responsibility to disprove the claim, but is rather the responsibility of the person who is making the bold claim to prove it. In short, X is not proven simply because "not X" cannot be proven (see negative proof)."

Replace God with X and that is my point.

On the subjectivity point, if I go "nothing travels faster than the speed of light" I am making an objective claim, based on observation of the empirical universe and confirmation of that observation.

Also, if none can make a subjective claim then morality as we know it is meaningless. All "do not murder" is is a claim.
A proud constitutional democratic republican.

The board's friendly neighborhood atheist.
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layalee
 
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bullet Posted: 18 November 2007 at 12:20pm

Originally posted by Diagoras

I make no claim that God does not exist, just as I make no claim that the Flying Spaghetti Monster doesn't exist. I just don't consider hypothesis true before evidence has been presented for them. Until I see good evidence for the God Hypothesis I put it in the same category as phrenology, interesting but no evidence. Indeed, both phrenology and the God Hypothesis make rather ridiculous claims.

I have heard several different forms of God Hypothesis, but I think it's truly impossible to develop any hypothesis that will use any  scientific, solid,  or factual method that will explain the concept of God. We as humans do not  have the knowledge of knowing exactly how God came into development and HOW God created us- unless God decides to grant man that power, for what God decides to do has no limit. But if we are not on God level, then one should not expect to ever run into such a solid hypothesis.

Even though we may never have the knowledge of developing a solid hypthosis that can explain the functioning of God and his makeup, their is not a need for a hypothesis to know that THERE IS a God. In my opinion we can see it with our own eyes. I know that I was created, and in basic terms I  know that something can not come from nothing. There was a original creator (creation) and I look at the original creator as someone that should be worshipped, but of course that is a personal choice.

Regardless of the possibilty that the original source is here for infidity, or if the original source had happen to 'pop up' we still can not deny the simple fact that there was an original creator (creation).

Because of the original creator (creation) that has happen, there was the development of the Holy Quran, which I feel is perfect in every way for the guidance it contains, if it was not for the original creator (creation) I could not have had the chance to witness the wisdom from this book.

 

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herjihad
 
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bullet Posted: 18 November 2007 at 1:27pm

Originally posted by Diagoras

Yup. Both have no evidence in their favor. Also unicorns, leprechauns, and evil ninja cyborgs from Proxima Centauri B.

Peace,

Upon reflection I consider that your topic is incorrectly posted in the Interfatih section, as you have no faith.  Are you allowed to post in general?  That would be more appropriate.

Also to your topic heading:  Ask an atheist.  Isn't it correct that this implies that you have only presented yourself to be questioned, but have little interest in asking Muslims why we have faith in Allah and why we believe what we do?  For that is the true purpose of this section.  Or for a compartive analysis of faiths, and atheism is not a faith, it is lack of one.

Honestly, it is foolish on many levels to equate belief in the All-Powerful, Loving, Creator to belief in spaghetti monsters.  It's disrespectful, rude, and completely arrogant and unneccessary.

When I look at the beauty and Glory of this world, I see the presence of Allah.  Now, obviously, you don't.  You see a mix of chemicals and weather patterns.  I understand that.  What we call spiritual, you call call superstitious.

Really either you have faith that our Loving Lord created this world or not.  There is not and will not be evidence as you have asked for someone to present to you.  For the evidence is there for those of us who see it, and for those who don't, it is a figment of our imagination.

And frankly, Scarlett, I don't give . .  Allah, The Evolver, opens the hearts of those whom Allah wishes.  Maybe you could just learn what we believe, how we are all different yet we have a common bond of faith.

Peace

Al-Hamdulillah (From a Married Muslimah) La Howla Wa La Quwata Illa BiLLah - There is no Effort or Power except with Allah's Will.
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Diagoras
 
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bullet Posted: 18 November 2007 at 6:14pm
I know that I was created, and in basic terms I  know that something can not come from nothing. There was a original creator (creation) and I look at the original creator as someone that should be worshipped, but of course that is a personal choice.

But then what created the creator? If you postulate a creator to explain the Universe you have just moved the question back a step.


A proud constitutional democratic republican.

The board's friendly neighborhood atheist.
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Diagoras
 
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bullet Posted: 18 November 2007 at 6:46pm
Upon reflection I consider that your topic is incorrectly posted in the Interfatih section, as you have no faith.  Are you allowed to post in general?  That would be more appropriate.

It is for Interfaith dialogue, where Muslims discuss with non-Muslims.
(Emphasis mine). However, if you feel that this topic belongs in general feel free to move it there.

Also to your topic heading:  Ask an atheist.  Isn't it correct that this implies that you have only presented yourself to be questioned, but have little interest in asking Muslims why we have faith in Allah and why we believe what we do?  For that is the true purpose of this section.  Or for a compartive analysis of faiths, and atheism is not a faith, it is lack of one.

I believe this section is for non-Muslim/Muslim discussion, and why my lack of faith should prevent my posting I fail to understand.

Honestly, it is foolish on many levels to equate belief in the All-Powerful, Loving, Creator to belief in spaghetti monsters.  It's disrespectful, rude, and completely arrogant and unneccessary.

It is a common answer to the claim that atheist must prove the non-existence of a deity. See: Flying Spaghetti Monster, Russel's Teapot.

And frankly, Scarlett, I don't give . .  Allah, The Evolver, opens the hearts of those whom Allah wishes.  Maybe you could just learn what we believe, how we are all different yet we have a common bond of faith.

I was PMed by a member curious about my atheism and I created a topic for those curious about it. I fail to see the harm in this.
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herjihad
 
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bullet Posted: 18 November 2007 at 7:16pm

Originally posted by Diagoras

Upon reflection I consider that your topic is incorrectly posted in the Interfatih section, as you have no faith.  Are you allowed to post in general?  That would be more appropriate.

It is for Interfaith dialogue, where Muslims discuss with non-Muslims.
(Emphasis mine). However, if you feel that this topic belongs in general feel free to move it there.

Also to your topic heading:  Ask an atheist.  Isn't it correct that this implies that you have only presented yourself to be questioned, but have little interest in asking Muslims why we have faith in Allah and why we believe what we do?  For that is the true purpose of this section.  Or for a compartive analysis of faiths, and atheism is not a faith, it is lack of one.

I believe this section is for non-Muslim/Muslim discussion, and why my lack of faith should prevent my posting I fail to understand.

Honestly, it is foolish on many levels to equate belief in the All-Powerful, Loving, Creator to belief in spaghetti monsters.  It's disrespectful, rude, and completely arrogant and unneccessary.

It is a common answer to the claim that atheist must prove the non-existence of a deity. See: Flying Spaghetti Monster, Russel's Teapot.

And frankly, Scarlett, I don't give . .  Allah, The Evolver, opens the hearts of those whom Allah wishes.  Maybe you could just learn what we believe, how we are all different yet we have a common bond of faith.

I was PMed by a member curious about my atheism and I created a topic for those curious about it. I fail to see the harm in this.

Salaams,

I am not a moderator, so my statement was basically directed towards those who move things.  I move the laundry basket around and that's about it. 

I see the harm, and I see that you don't.  However, here is my opinion, as you have given yours.

FYI, People of Faith find offense in comparing our Exalted Lord to spaghetti monsters, whatever the reference is.  In other words, if others started such a disrespectful practice, you are able to stop it if you choose.

Then we can talk!  Your atheism is your choice, whereas my faith is mine.  Now, let's work on important issues like world warfare, poverty, and the need for us all to advance our behavior to a much higher level in order to protect the precious human dignity that we are imbued with.

And you can learn about all the different kinds of muslims there are in this world.

Peace.

Al-Hamdulillah (From a Married Muslimah) La Howla Wa La Quwata Illa BiLLah - There is no Effort or Power except with Allah's Will.
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