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Ron Webb
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bullet Posted: 20 February 2008 at 5:00pm

Thanks for that, poga, but you omitted the four madhabs, the six pillars of iman, and the seven heavens.  I'm also surprised you couldn't manage to work the number 19 in there somewhere.

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bullet Posted: 21 February 2008 at 6:07am
Originally posted by Ron Webb

Thanks for that, poga, but you omitted the four madhabs, the six pillars of iman, and the seven heavens.  I'm also surprised you couldn't manage to work the number 19 in there somewhere.

salam dear ron it is not i who placed this numbers in our religion it was done by ALLAH and his RASUL Sallel la Hu Alahi Wa Sallim

ps do you need to know about the cross

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bullet Posted: 22 February 2008 at 6:01am
Originally posted by Ron Webb

Thanks for that, poga, but you omitted the four madhabs, the six pillars of iman, and the seven heavens.  I'm also surprised you couldn't manage to work the number 19 in there somewhere.

salam ron

you said

If the value of pi were calculated to several billion decimal places and the entire Quran were found to be encoded within that number sequence, then that would be convincing evidence.  (This suggestion courtesy of Arthur C. Clarke.)

i have given you Fibonacci sequence encoded within the deen of Islam and ask any pi and phi are connected

in the Fibonacci sequence how can one get 4 and 19  because it begins with 1123581321 if you want 19 then see Miracle of AL QURAN what i gave is the Miracle of SUNNAH of MUHAMMAD Sallel La Hu Alahi Wa Sallim

 

For your convenience i will post my whole SWEETSWORDS 6 [ Fibonacci Fitna ] bellow now if you are truthful if you are truly logical person you must accept Islam

but you still have choice as i have begun my post before this as deaf dumb and blind will not accept

now it is up to you

SWEETSWORDS 6 [ Fibonacci Fitna ]

This poem is proof QADIAN is Be Iman Kaffir By mathmetical miracle of SUNNAH

3 - 2 - 1 - 1 + 2 + 3 + 5 + 8

BISMILLAH

By Poga Humayun Dundiwala

Heavy heart and weight of gratitude
Counting the blessing with extravagant attitude
Number of blessing and one too many
The IMAM of want and chant and Psalm of content phony

Heavy heart and weight of gratitude
Counting the cost under apparent magnitude
Number of blessing and needful suffice
Weight of beholden and audit office

Poga Say's in a fooligton maze

Weight of a being and measure of existence
A Eternal machine refueling with instance
A overflowing fullness that remain empty
Occasional outrage and permanent serenity

Heavy heart and weight of gratitude
Counting the beads with blessed blind attitude
Number of chant and want of man
Lightness of mark and weight of the pen

Awaluddin Marrifath Ulla Say's AL QURAN does not require science to prove it is the Divine book
But science does require the mastery of the metaphysical messengers to understand mistakes of theirs scientist schnook
AL HADIS does not require numbers but there are numbers of sects
And all are fabricated apart from the one with the QURANIC ambiguity and the SUNNATIC facts
Every sects believe have theirs own books and all believe in one AL QURAN
And even AL QURAN is not enough for those Jew Hindu Christian and the QADIANI BE IMAN
But in one thing they all must come to the agreement
Even the deaf dumb and blind with theirs self conscious doubt decrement
Even the blind can count one finger is one finger and two hand holds ten
Therefore SWEETSWORDS 6 [ Fibonacci Fitana ] with MIM Functional PHI spiraling ratio that is NURANI golden
It is the PHI spiraling SUTRA for the NURANI Na Laynn
The Golden Ratio that runs through the KURSI and the ARSH as the eight infinite sign
Therefore just as AL QURAN does not require the materialistic scientists to prove its magical BAYAN
Similarly SUNNAH does not require mathematics to tell its numerical FORMAN
And SWEETSWORDS 6 [Fibonacci Fitna ] is everyday science what does not require any TORJOMA or TOFSIR
Yes it is everyday common knowledge what proves QADIAN is The BE IMAN KAFFIR
We don't need theirs numerous and volumous QADIANI books what goes against every day pen
Nor do we need any SUFI SWINES the number is five ALAMS while there is the only two taken from the ten


Mr Barzakh Fitrath Ullah: The dark square niche with glowing cube crystal
The dark square footstool with the glowing circle
The four legged dark KURSI and the eight headed glowing ARSH
The first dimensional lines of the audible pen and the second dimensional planes of the visual brush
These are the silent blessing of watery niche with the sounding clay crystal
Square up of all SAWAB with rolling down KHOAB circle
These are payment of silent blessing with the grateful AWAZ
These are payment to silent water from vibrating QUARTZ


Mrs Be Aql Khan Usta : This life is not some unreal Khawab
But this life is the place to gain the real Sawab
This life is where
I will my awareness to submit in sincere
To will of GOD
This life is where i sing the DURUD OF MUHAMMAD
Sallel La Hu Alahi Wa Sallaim
This life is blessing this life where we drink the living breathing Tasnim

Mr Barzakh Fitrath Ullah : ALLAH is manifest ALLAH is hidden and he have no partner
Therefore this life is not real nor unreal but reflectional SANSAR
Yet this life not the blind mutation of two
But the clear water with the NURANI view
This life is like this living breathing vibration
The WORD of GOD that occupies the whole without GOD being present in part portion or section

Mrs Be Aql Khan Usta : The best business is religious SAWDAH
The best of innovation is religious BIDAH
It is the business where profits multiplies by SUNNAH sanction
It is the TIJARAH where SAWAB multiplies by Fibonacci function
Therefore count this blessing where one is many
It is one present JULM where punishment multiplies without losing its previous tyranny

Barzakh : He gave Fibbonacci formula in the HADITH of BIDAH E HASANAH and the sequence in the DEEN of ISLAM
In the First KALAMA of ALLAH chose from his infinite names and infinite prophets he chose ALLAH 1 and MUHAMMAD 1 SALLEL LA HU ALAHI WA SALLAM
Now he who chooses the first sequence 1 + 1 may continue toward the two
With the QURAN and SUNNAH by his body and RUH 1 + 1 = 2
Then toward the third run
With IMAN AMAL and EHSAAN 1 + 1 + 1 = 3
He continues to ascend toward the infinite area
He continues to grow By five KALAMA E SHAHADA and eight AHKAM E SHARRIAH 5 + 8 = 1 + 3 + 4 + 7 + 1 + 1 + 2 + 3 + 5
This is the ASL asset of Islamic Bidathi innovation
And the inheritance SAWAB of its NAQL repetition
This is the real ISLAMIC enigmatic BIDAH and the ASL concept of ISLAMIC AWL
The RUHANI solution to all mental BE AQL

Be Aql : Prophet MUHAMMAD SALLEL LA HU ALAHI WA SALLAM said i warn you of the newly invented matter
And every newly invented matter is an innovation of its creator
And every innovation is misguidance
And every misguidance is in the hell fire residence
According to HADITH An Nasaee
All Ulema Say's this HADITH is Kullu shaee
Now doe's all newly invented matters leads to hell
Ancient water and modern well
I don't know that but i know this
When you neglect 13 Arkan and Ahkam and 21 SALAH SUNNAH your AHZAB increases while your SAWAB decrease 13 + 21

Barzakh :Now who else but you oh BE AQL can
Tell me about function of Fibonacci fitan
How it proves SUNNAH of prophet MUHAMMAD Sallel La Hu Alahi Wa Sallim is the last prophetic Bayan
How just as mathematical miracles of AL QURAN proves it is the last revelation
Similarly SWEETSWORDS 6 [ Fibonacci Fitna ] provides the proof the SUNNAH of prophet MUHAMMAD Sallel La Hu Alahi Wa Sallim is the last prophetic tradition
Therefore anyone who claims he or she is the prophet of ALLAH since his arrival
SWEETSWORDS 6 [Fibonacci Fitna ] will provide the proof that he is for sure the KUFFAR LIER DAJJAL
Now don't argue on me saying i have put similarity between AL QURAN and SWEETSWORDS oh BE AQL
No i have only shown the AL QURAN and AL SUNNAH both are protected by mathematical miracle
There is no QURAN but AL QURAN and SWEETSWORDS is just my physical marriage and your spiritual conception
SWEETSWORDS is only here to proof its honesty and the falsehood of the BE IMAN QADIAN
Now who else but you to tell me about 13 SALATH E MUSTAHAB and 21 SALATH SUNNAH SAWAB 13 + 21 = 34
Who else but you to tell me about 13 SALATH E MUSTAHAB and 21 SALATH E SUNNAH what can nullify SALATH by 21 acts MOQRUH AHZAB 13 + 21 + 21 = 55
Who else but you to tell me about 40 SUNNATH E MUHAQADA and 44 SUNNAH E GAIR E MUHAQADA in our 5 daily SALAH 40 + 44 + 5 = 89
Who else but you to tell me about SUNNAH OF MUHAMMAD UR RASUL ALLAH
Yes i agree i know very little about AL QURAN and AL HADIS
But i know lot about every other which what that and this
I know he is under ALLAH but above AL QURAN
I know he is the spiral stair case through what AL QURAN descended to the creation by Fibonacci function
I know he is above AL QURAN but under SUNNAH
I know he is the highest Father of every lowly Munnah
I know he is under ALLAH but above AL QURAN
I know he is above AL FURQAN but under its FORMAN 8 + 13 + 21 + 34 + 55 + 89

1 ALLAH

1 MUHAMMAD

2 QURAN AND SUNNAH

3 IMAN AMAL AND IHSAAN

5 FIVE PILLERS OF ISLAM

8 AHKAM E ISLAM

13 AHAKAM AND ARKAN

21 SUNNAH IN SALATH

34 SUNNAH [21] AND MUSTAHAB [13] IN SALATH

55 SUNNAH [21] MOQRUH [ 21 ] MUSTAHAB [13]

89 SUNNATH E MUHAQADA [40] SUNNATH E GAIR E MUHAQADA [44]DAILY SALATH [5]


F0, 1, 1, 2, 3, 5, 8, 13, 21, 34, 55, 89, 144, 233, 377, 610, 987, 1597, 2584, c

Fibonacci numbers have an interesting property. When you divide one number in the sequence by the number before it, you obtain numbers very close to one another. In fact, this number is fixed after the 13th number in the series. This number is known as the "golden ratio."

------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------------
THESE ARE REFERENCES I HAVE TAKEN FROM OTHER SITES


General | Scientific Miracles in the Quran
 

------------------------------------------------------------ --------------------
 
 
Fibonacci Numbers: A Measure of Beauty
 
By Harun Yahya
 March 02, 2005
 
 
The Golden Number is not mathematical imagination, but a natural principle related to the laws of equilibrium
[Allah has appointed a measure for all things.] (Qurfan, 65: 3)

The Wikipedia encyclopaedia describes beauty as ethe phenomenon of the experience of pleasure, through the perception of balancef. Everyone admires beauty in nature and the unique balance found in it. Some say that this balance and perception of beauty is due to the Golden number or the ratio that gives certain things their exquisitness.  

If a pleasing or exceedingly balanced form is achieved in terms of elements of application or function, it is there that we may look for a function of the Golden Number. The Golden Number is a product not of mathematical imagination, but of a natural principle related to the laws of equilibrium.[1]

What do the pyramids in Egypt, Leonardo da Vincifs portrait of the Mona Lisa, sunflowers, the snail, the pine cone and your fingers all have in common?

The answer to this question lies hidden in a sequence of numbers discovered by the Italian mathematician Fibonacci. The characteristic of these numbers, known as the Fibonacci numbers, is that each one consists of the sum of the two numbers before it.[2]

F0, 1, 1, 2, 3, 5, 8, 13, 21, 34, 55, 89, 144, 233, 377, 610, 987, 1597, 2584, c

Fibonacci numbers have an interesting property. When you divide one number in the sequence by the number before it, you obtain numbers very close to one another. In fact, this number is fixed after the 13th number in the series. This number is known as the "golden ratio." ibonacci numbers

 

GOLDEN RATIO = 1.618

233 / 144 = 1.618

377 / 233 = 1.618

610 / 377 = 1.618

987 / 610 = 1.618

1597 / 987 = 1.618

2584 / 1597 = 1.618

The Golden Ratio

When conducting their researches or setting out their products, artists, scientists and designers take the human body, the proportions of which are set out according to the golden ratio, as their measure. Leonardo da Vinci and Le Corbusier took the human body, proportioned according to the golden ratio, as their measure when producing their designs. The human body, proportioned according to the golden ratio, is taken as the basis also in the Neufert, one of the most important reference books of modern-day architects.

The Golden Ratio in the Human Body

 
Click to Enlarge
 
The "ideal" proportional relations that are suggested as existing among various parts of the average human body and that approximately meet the golden ratio values can be set out in a general plan as follows:[3]

The M/m level (shown in the table to the right) is always equivalent to the golden ratio. M/m = 1.618

The first example of the golden ratio in the average human body is that when the distance between the navel and the foot is taken as 1 unit, the height of a human being is equivalent to 1.618. Some other golden proportions in the average human body are:

The distance between the finger tip and the elbow / distance between the wrist and the elbow

The distance between the shoulder line and the top of the head / head length

The distance between the navel and the top of the head / the distance between the shoulder line and the top of the head

The distance between the navel and knee / distance between the knee and the end of the foot

The Human Hand

Lift your hand from the computer mouse and look at the shape of your index finger. You will in all likelihood witness a golden proportion there.

Our fingers have three sections. The proportion of the first two to the full length of the finger gives the golden ratio (with the exception of the thumbs). You can also see that the proportion of the middle finger to the little finger is also a golden ratio.[4]

You have two hands, and the fingers on them consist of three sections. There are five fingers on each hand, and only eight of these are articulated according to the golden number: 2, 3, 5, and 8 fit the Fibonacci numbers.

The Golden Ratio in the Human Face

There are several golden ratios in the human face. Do not pick up a ruler and try to measure peoplefs faces, however, because this refers to the "ideal human face" determined by scientists and artists.

For example, the total width of the two front teeth in the upper jaw over their height gives a golden ratio. The width of the first tooth from the centre to the second tooth also yields a golden ratio. These are the ideal proportions that a dentist may consider. Some other golden ratios in the human face are:

Length of face / width of face

Distance between the lips and where the eyebrows meet / length of nose

Length of face / distance between tip of jaw and where the eyebrows meet

Length of mouth / width of nose

Width of nose / distance between nostrils

Distance between pupils / distance between eyebrows

Golden Proportion in the Lungs

In a study carried out between 1985 and 1987,[5] the American physicist B. J. West and Dr. A. L. Goldberger revealed the existence of the golden ratio in the structure of the lung. One feature of the network of the bronchi that constitutes the lung is that it is asymmetric. For example, the windpipe divides into two main bronchi, one long (the left) and the other short (the right). This asymmetrical division continues into the subsequent subdivisions of the bronchi.[6] It was determined that in all these divisions the proportion of the short bronchus to the long was always 1/1.618.

The Golden Rectangle and the Design in the Spiral

 
A rectangle, the proportion of whose sides is equal to the golden ratio is known as a "golden rectangle"
A rectangle, the proportion of whose sides is equal to the golden ratio is known as a "golden rectangle." A rectangle whose sides are 1.618 and 1 unit long is a golden rectangle. Let us assume a square drawn along the length of the short side of this rectangle and draw a quarter circle between two corners of the square. Then, let us draw a square and a quarter circle on the remaining side and do this for all the remaining rectangles in the main rectangle. When you do this you will end up with a spiral.

The British aesthetician William Charlton explains the way that people find the spiral pleasing and have been using it for thousands of years stating that we find spirals pleasing because we are easily able to visually follow them.[7]

The spirals based on the golden ratio contain the most incomparable designs you can find in nature. Examples we can give of this are the spiral sequences on the sunflower and the pine cone.

The Design in Sea Shells

When investigating the shells of mollusks, which live at the bottom of the sea, the form and the structure of the internal and external surfaces of the shells attracted scientistsf attention.

The internal surface is smooth, while the outside surface is fluted. The molluskfs body is inside the shell. The outside edges of the shell augment its rigidity and, thus, increase its strength. The shellfs form is astonishing in its perfection highlighting the beauty of its creation. The spiral idea in shells is expressed in the perfect geometrical form, in a surprisingly beautiful, "sharpened" design.[8]

The shells of most mollusks grow in a logarithmic spiral manner. There can be no doubt, of course, that these animals are unaware of even the simplest mathematical calculation, let alone logarithmic spirals. So how is it that the creatures in question can know that this is the best way for them to grow? How do these animals, that some scientists describe as "primitive," know that this is the ideal form for them? It is impossible for growth of this kind to take place in the absence of a consciousness or intellect. That consciousness exists neither in mollusks nor, despite what some scientists would claim, in nature itself. It is totally irrational to seek to account for such a thing in terms of chance. This design can only be the product of the Almighty Allah.

 
An example of perfect geometry
Growth of this kind was described as "gnomic growth" by the biologist Sir DfArcy Thompson, an expert on the subject, who stated that it was impossible to imagine a simpler system, during the growth of a seashell, than which was based on widening and extension in line with identical and unchanging proportions. As he pointed out, the shell constantly grows, but its shape remains the same.[9]

One can see one of the best examples of this type of growth in a nautilus, just a few centimetres in diameter. C. Morrison describes this growth process, which is exceptionally difficult to plan even with human intelligence, stating that along the nautilus shell, an internal spiral extends consisting of a number of chambers with mother-of-pearl (calcium carbonate and conchiolin secreted by the mantle of mollusks) lined walls. As the animal grows, it builds another chamber at the mouth of the spiral shell  larger than the one before it, and moves forward into this larger area by closing the door behind it with a layer of mother-of-pearl.[10]

Growth in a spiral form in the animal world is not restricted to the shells of mollusks. Animals such as antelopes, goats and rams complete their horn development in spiral forms based on the golden ratio.[11]

The Golden Ratio in the Hearing and Balance Organ

The cochlea in the human inner ear serves to transmit sound vibrations. This bony structure, filled with fluid, has a logarithmic spiral shape with a fixed angle of ƒ¿=73‹43L containing the golden ratio.

The Golden Ratio in DNA

The molecule in which all the physical features of living things are stored, too, has been created in a form based on the golden ratio. The DNA molecule, the very program of life, is based on the golden ratio. DNA consists of two intertwined perpendicular helixes. The length of the curve in each of these helixes is 34 angstroms and the width 21 angstroms. (1 angstrom is one hundred millionth of a centimetre.) 21 and 34 are two consecutive Fibonacci numbers.

The Golden Ratio in Snow Crystals

The golden ratio also manifests itself in crystal structures. Most of these are in structures too minute to be seen with the naked eye. Yet you can see the golden ratio in snow flakes. The various long and short variations and protrusions that comprise the snow flake all yield the golden ratio.[12]

The Golden Ratio in Space

In the universe there are many spiral galaxies containing the golden ratio in their structures.

The Golden Ratio in Physics

You encounter Fibonacci series and the golden ratio in fields that fall under the sphere of physics. When a light is held over two contiguous layers of glass, one part of that light passes through, one part is absorbed, and the rest is reflected. What happens is a "multiple reflection." The number of paths taken by the ray inside the glass before it emerges again depends on the number of reflections it is subjected to. In conclusion, when we determine the number of rays that re-emerge, we find that they are compatible with the Fibonacci numbers.[13]

The fact that a great many unconnected animate or inanimate structures in nature are shaped according to a specific mathematical formula is one of the clearest proofs that these have been specially designed. The golden ratio is an aesthetic rule well known and applied by artists. Works of art based on that ratio represent aesthetic perfection. Plants, galaxies, micro-organisms, crystals and living things designed according to this rule imitated by artists are all examples of Allahfs superior artistry. Allah reveals in the Qurfan that He has created all things with a measure. Some of these verses read:

[Allah has appointed a measure for all things.] (Qurfan, 65: 3)

[Everything has its measure with Him.] (Qurfan, 13: 8)


 

 



Edited by poga
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Ron Webb
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bullet Posted: 22 February 2008 at 5:03pm

Originally posted by poga

i have given you Fibonacci sequence encoded within the deen of Islam and ask any pi and phi are connected

As an amateur mathematician I am well aware of the Fibonacci sequence and the Golden Ratio.  I don't know what you mean by "pi and phi" though.

in the Fibonacci sequence how can one get 4 and 19  because it begins with 1123581321

That is exactly my point (and I'm surprised I need to explain this to you).  You're simply picking and choosing numbers which happen to fit the Fibonacci sequence.  If you had needed a 4, the Madhabs would have provided it.  If you needed a 7, you would have cited the seven heavens.  And so on.  Things get even more arbitrary when you start adding unrelated numbers together to make other numbers.  In short, you're making the data fit the theory instead of the other way around.

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bullet Posted: 22 February 2008 at 8:59pm
Originally posted by Ron Webb

Originally posted by poga

i have given you Fibonacci sequence encoded within the deen of Islam and ask any pi and phi are connected

As an amateur mathematician I am well aware of the Fibonacci sequence and the Golden Ratio.  I don't know what you mean by "pi and phi" though.

in the Fibonacci sequence how can one get 4 and 19  because it begins with 1123581321

you say you know about golden ratio yet you do not know how phi and pi are connected

what can i say apart from you need glasses

you again say i placed this sequence

who am i to place anything in ISLAM it was done by our Prophet MUHAMMAD Sallel la Hu Alahi Wa Sallim

i only discovered it like Rashid Khalifa discovered mathmetical miracle of QURAN

yet by QURAN he became KAFFIR

while SUNNAH saved one KAFFIR to become Musalman

yet again you say four madhab how can there be four in Fibonacci sequence

what can i say apart from what i said before deaf dumb and blind will never see

Barzakh : He gave Fibbonacci formula in the HADITH of BIDAH E HASANAH and the sequence in the DEEN of ISLAM
In the First KALAMA of ALLAH chose from his infinite names and infinite prophets he chose ALLAH 1 and MUHAMMAD 1 SALLEL LA HU ALAHI WA SALLAM
Now he who chooses the first sequence 1 + 1 may continue toward the two
With the QURAN and SUNNAH by his body and RUH 1 + 1 = 2
Then toward the third run
With IMAN AMAL and EHSAAN 1 + 1 + 1 = 3
He continues to ascend toward the infinite area
He continues to grow By five KALAMA E SHAHADA and eight AHKAM E SHARRIAH 5 + 8 = 1 + 3 + 4 + 7 + 1 + 1 + 2 + 3 + 5
This is the ASL asset of Islamic Bidathi innovation
And the inheritance SAWAB of its NAQL repetition
This is the real ISLAMIC enigmatic BIDAH and the ASL concept of ISLAMIC AWL
The RUHANI solution to all mental BE AQL

from SWEETSWORDS

SEE there if you are not BLIND first there is SHAHADAH and with this SHAHADAH there two name MUHAMMAD and ALLAH

who placed them me or ALLAH and his Prophet

then there is QURAN and SUNNAH

Third is IMAN AMAL and EHSAAN

who placed them in ISLAM me or ALLAH and his Prophet

 

That is exactly my point (and I'm surprised I need to explain this to you).  You're simply picking and choosing numbers which happen to fit the Fibonacci sequence.  If you had needed a 4, the Madhabs would have provided it.  If you needed a 7, you would have cited the seven heavens.  And so on.  Things get even more arbitrary when you start adding unrelated numbers together to make other numbers.  In short, you're making the data fit the theory instead of the other way around.

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bullet Posted: 23 February 2008 at 10:24pm
Hey everyone,

Work and school have been both killing me, and will continue to do so for the near future. I'll try to get one more reply in and attempt to cover all your points in that one, probably tomorrow, then I probably won't get a chance to get back to this thread again in at least two weeks.

However, seeing as Ron Webb here has been picking up my slack, I hereby appoint him the official atheist of this thread. He shall have the power to levy taxes, declare war, and regulate trade but NOT to confer titles or pass bills of attainder. Direct all questions, comments, complaints, and death-threats to him.

Anyway, I'll get my parting shots in tomorrow and see you all in a month, when I'll return to gloriously reclaim the thread. 'Till then, Godspeed.
A proud constitutional democratic republican.

The board's friendly neighborhood atheist.
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bullet Posted: 24 February 2008 at 8:03am

Originally posted by Diagoras

Hey everyone,

Work and school have been both killing me, and will continue to do so for the near future. I'll try to get one more reply in and attempt to cover all your points in that one, probably tomorrow, then I probably won't get a chance to get back to this thread again in at least two weeks.

However, seeing as Ron Webb here has been picking up my slack, I hereby appoint him the official atheist of this thread. He shall have the power to levy taxes, declare war, and regulate trade but NOT to confer titles or pass bills of attainder. Direct all questions, comments, complaints, and death-threats to him.

Anyway, I'll get my parting shots in tomorrow and see you all in a month, when I'll return to gloriously reclaim the thread. 'Till then, Godspeed.

After the numerous pages of this thread that have developed and your refusal to contribute anything of real, solid value, I doubt that you will have anything of substance to offer (links and appealing to  ideas from wikipeida do not count). Keep in mind that if, upon your return, your replies are the same rubbish that you have been writing, the thread will close. As a courtesy to you, I am leaving the thread open for now. Once a thread begins to move away from benefit, they are "normally" closed, which is where this thread was headed until this last reply by you.

regards 

A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
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bullet Posted: 24 February 2008 at 9:30am

Originally posted by Diagoras

However, seeing as Ron Webb here has been picking up my slack, I hereby appoint him the official atheist of this thread. He shall have the power to levy taxes, declare war, and regulate trade but NOT to confer titles or pass bills of attainder. Direct all questions, comments, complaints, and death-threats to him.

Just for the record, I'm not comfortable with the "official atheist" designation.  My personal views are complex and I don't like to be reduced to a a label, but if you need one, "agnostic" would be better.  I can see the world from a variety of points of view.  Atheism is just one of many patterns that can be applied to the universe.  It happens to be my preferred pattern, but it isn't the only one.

But I agree with Andalus that this discussion has pretty much passed its "best before" date.

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