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Interfaith Dialogue  
IslamiCity Forum  Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion  Islam : Interfaith Dialogue 
Topic: Ask an Atheist( Topic Closed)  
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Ron Webb
Male Humanism Senior Member Joined: 30 January 2008 Online Status: Online Posts: 1707 
Posted: 20 February 2008 at 5:00pm 
Thanks for that, poga, but you omitted the four madhabs, the six pillars of iman, and the seven heavens. I'm also surprised you couldn't manage to work the number 19 in there somewhere. 

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poga
Senior Member Joined: 03 January 2007 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 322 
Posted: 21 February 2008 at 6:07am 
Originally posted by Ron Webb
Thanks for that, poga, but you omitted the four madhabs, the six pillars of iman, and the seven heavens. I'm also surprised you couldn't manage to work the number 19 in there somewhere. salam dear ron it is not i who placed this numbers in our religion it was done by ALLAH and his RASUL Sallel la Hu Alahi Wa Sallim ps do you need to know about the cross 

awal


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poga
Senior Member Joined: 03 January 2007 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 322 
Posted: 22 February 2008 at 6:01am 
Originally posted by Ron Webb
Thanks for that, poga, but you omitted the four madhabs, the six pillars of iman, and the seven heavens. I'm also surprised you couldn't manage to work the number 19 in there somewhere. salam ron you said If the value of pi were calculated to several billion decimal places and the entire Quran were found to be encoded within that number sequence, then that would be convincing evidence. (This suggestion courtesy of Arthur C. Clarke.) i have given you Fibonacci sequence encoded within the deen of Islam and ask any pi and phi are connected in the Fibonacci sequence how can one get 4 and 19 because it begins with 1123581321 if you want 19 then see Miracle of AL QURAN what i gave is the Miracle of SUNNAH of MUHAMMAD Sallel La Hu Alahi Wa Sallim
For your convenience i will post my whole SWEETSWORDS 6 [ Fibonacci Fitna ] bellow now if you are truthful if you are truly logical person you must accept Islam but you still have choice as i have begun my post before this as deaf dumb and blind will not accept now it is up to you SWEETSWORDS 6 [ Fibonacci Fitna ] This poem is proof QADIAN is Be Iman Kaffir By mathmetical miracle of SUNNAH 3  2  1  1 + 2 + 3 + 5 + 8 BISMILLAH By Poga Humayun Dundiwala Heavy heart and weight of gratitude Heavy heart and weight of gratitude Poga Say's in a fooligton maze Weight of a being and measure of existence Heavy heart and weight of gratitude Awaluddin Marrifath Ulla Say's AL QURAN does not require science to prove it is the Divine book
Mr Barzakh Fitrath Ullah : ALLAH is manifest ALLAH is hidden and he have no partner Mrs Be Aql Khan Usta : The best business is religious SAWDAH Barzakh : He gave Fibbonacci formula in the HADITH of BIDAH E HASANAH and the sequence in the DEEN of ISLAM Be Aql : Prophet MUHAMMAD SALLEL LA HU ALAHI WA SALLAM said i warn you of the newly invented matter Barzakh :Now who else but you oh BE AQL can 1 ALLAH 1 MUHAMMAD 2 QURAN AND SUNNAH 3 IMAN AMAL AND IHSAAN 5 FIVE PILLERS OF ISLAM 8 AHKAM E ISLAM 13 AHAKAM AND ARKAN 21 SUNNAH IN SALATH 34 SUNNAH [21] AND MUSTAHAB [13] IN SALATH 55 SUNNAH [21] MOQRUH [ 21 ] MUSTAHAB [13] 89 SUNNATH E MUHAQADA [40] SUNNATH E GAIR E MUHAQADA [44]DAILY SALATH [5]
Fibonacci numbers have an interesting property. When you divide one number in the sequence by the number before it, you obtain numbers very close to one another. In fact, this number is fixed after the 13th number in the series. This number is known as the "golden ratio."  
  The Wikipedia encyclopaedia describes beauty as ethe phenomenon of the experience of pleasure, through the perception of balancef. Everyone admires beauty in nature and the unique balance found in it. Some say that this balance and perception of beauty is due to the Golden number or the ratio that gives certain things their exquisitness. If a pleasing or exceedingly balanced form is achieved in terms of elements of application or function, it is there that we may look for a function of the Golden Number. The Golden Number is a product not of mathematical imagination, but of a natural principle related to the laws of equilibrium.[1] What do the pyramids in Egypt, Leonardo da Vincifs portrait of the Mona Lisa, sunflowers, the snail, the pine cone and your fingers all have in common? The answer to this question lies hidden in a sequence of numbers discovered by the Italian mathematician Fibonacci. The characteristic of these numbers, known as the Fibonacci numbers, is that each one consists of the sum of the two numbers before it.[2] F0, 1, 1, 2, 3, 5, 8, 13, 21, 34, 55, 89, 144, 233, 377, 610, 987, 1597, 2584, c Fibonacci numbers have an interesting property. When you divide one number in the sequence by the number before it, you obtain numbers very close to one another. In fact, this number is fixed after the 13th number in the series. This number is known as the "golden ratio." ibonacci numbers
GOLDEN RATIO = 1.618 233 / 144 = 1.618 377 / 233 = 1.618 610 / 377 = 1.618 987 / 610 = 1.618 1597 / 987 = 1.618 2584 / 1597 = 1.618 The Golden Ratio When conducting their researches or setting out their products, artists, scientists and designers take the human body, the proportions of which are set out according to the golden ratio, as their measure. Leonardo da Vinci and Le Corbusier took the human body, proportioned according to the golden ratio, as their measure when producing their designs. The human body, proportioned according to the golden ratio, is taken as the basis also in the Neufert, one of the most important reference books of modernday architects. The Golden Ratio in the Human Body The M/m level (shown in the table to the right) is always equivalent to the golden ratio. M/m = 1.618 The first example of the golden ratio in the average human body is that when the distance between the navel and the foot is taken as 1 unit, the height of a human being is equivalent to 1.618. Some other golden proportions in the average human body are: The distance between the finger tip and the elbow / distance between the wrist and the elbow The distance between the shoulder line and the top of the head / head length The distance between the navel and the top of the head / the distance between the shoulder line and the top of the head The distance between the navel and knee / distance between the knee and the end of the foot The Human Hand Lift your hand from the computer mouse and look at the shape of your index finger. You will in all likelihood witness a golden proportion there. Our fingers have three sections. The proportion of the first two to the full length of the finger gives the golden ratio (with the exception of the thumbs). You can also see that the proportion of the middle finger to the little finger is also a golden ratio.[4] You have two hands, and the fingers on them consist of three sections. There are five fingers on each hand, and only eight of these are articulated according to the golden number: 2, 3, 5, and 8 fit the Fibonacci numbers. The Golden Ratio in the Human Face There are several golden ratios in the human face. Do not pick up a ruler and try to measure peoplefs faces, however, because this refers to the "ideal human face" determined by scientists and artists. For example, the total width of the two front teeth in the upper jaw over their height gives a golden ratio. The width of the first tooth from the centre to the second tooth also yields a golden ratio. These are the ideal proportions that a dentist may consider. Some other golden ratios in the human face are: Length of face / width of face Distance between the lips and where the eyebrows meet / length of nose Length of face / distance between tip of jaw and where the eyebrows meet Length of mouth / width of nose Width of nose / distance between nostrils Distance between pupils / distance between eyebrows Golden Proportion in the Lungs In a study carried out between 1985 and 1987,[5] the American physicist B. J. West and Dr. A. L. Goldberger revealed the existence of the golden ratio in the structure of the lung. One feature of the network of the bronchi that constitutes the lung is that it is asymmetric. For example, the windpipe divides into two main bronchi, one long (the left) and the other short (the right). This asymmetrical division continues into the subsequent subdivisions of the bronchi.[6] It was determined that in all these divisions the proportion of the short bronchus to the long was always 1/1.618. The Golden Rectangle and the Design in the Spiral The British aesthetician William Charlton explains the way that people find the spiral pleasing and have been using it for thousands of years stating that we find spirals pleasing because we are easily able to visually follow them.[7] The spirals based on the golden ratio contain the most incomparable designs you can find in nature. Examples we can give of this are the spiral sequences on the sunflower and the pine cone. The Design in Sea Shells When investigating the shells of mollusks, which live at the bottom of the sea, the form and the structure of the internal and external surfaces of the shells attracted scientistsf attention. The internal surface is smooth, while the outside surface is fluted. The molluskfs body is inside the shell. The outside edges of the shell augment its rigidity and, thus, increase its strength. The shellfs form is astonishing in its perfection highlighting the beauty of its creation. The spiral idea in shells is expressed in the perfect geometrical form, in a surprisingly beautiful, "sharpened" design.[8] The shells of most mollusks grow in a logarithmic spiral manner. There can be no doubt, of course, that these animals are unaware of even the simplest mathematical calculation, let alone logarithmic spirals. So how is it that the creatures in question can know that this is the best way for them to grow? How do these animals, that some scientists describe as "primitive," know that this is the ideal form for them? It is impossible for growth of this kind to take place in the absence of a consciousness or intellect. That consciousness exists neither in mollusks nor, despite what some scientists would claim, in nature itself. It is totally irrational to seek to account for such a thing in terms of chance. This design can only be the product of the Almighty Allah. One can see one of the best examples of this type of growth in a nautilus, just a few centimetres in diameter. C. Morrison describes this growth process, which is exceptionally difficult to plan even with human intelligence, stating that along the nautilus shell, an internal spiral extends consisting of a number of chambers with motherofpearl (calcium carbonate and conchiolin secreted by the mantle of mollusks) lined walls. As the animal grows, it builds another chamber at the mouth of the spiral shell larger than the one before it, and moves forward into this larger area by closing the door behind it with a layer of motherofpearl.[10] Growth in a spiral form in the animal world is not restricted to the shells of mollusks. Animals such as antelopes, goats and rams complete their horn development in spiral forms based on the golden ratio.[11] The Golden Ratio in the Hearing and Balance Organ The cochlea in the human inner ear serves to transmit sound vibrations. This bony structure, filled with fluid, has a logarithmic spiral shape with a fixed angle of ƒ¿=73‹43L containing the golden ratio. The Golden Ratio in DNA The molecule in which all the physical features of living things are stored, too, has been created in a form based on the golden ratio. The DNA molecule, the very program of life, is based on the golden ratio. DNA consists of two intertwined perpendicular helixes. The length of the curve in each of these helixes is 34 angstroms and the width 21 angstroms. (1 angstrom is one hundred millionth of a centimetre.) 21 and 34 are two consecutive Fibonacci numbers. The Golden Ratio in Snow Crystals The golden ratio also manifests itself in crystal structures. Most of these are in structures too minute to be seen with the naked eye. Yet you can see the golden ratio in snow flakes. The various long and short variations and protrusions that comprise the snow flake all yield the golden ratio.[12] The Golden Ratio in Space In the universe there are many spiral galaxies containing the golden ratio in their structures. The Golden Ratio in Physics You encounter Fibonacci series and the golden ratio in fields that fall under the sphere of physics. When a light is held over two contiguous layers of glass, one part of that light passes through, one part is absorbed, and the rest is reflected. What happens is a "multiple reflection." The number of paths taken by the ray inside the glass before it emerges again depends on the number of reflections it is subjected to. In conclusion, when we determine the number of rays that reemerge, we find that they are compatible with the Fibonacci numbers.[13] The fact that a great many unconnected animate or inanimate structures in nature are shaped according to a specific mathematical formula is one of the clearest proofs that these have been specially designed. The golden ratio is an aesthetic rule well known and applied by artists. Works of art based on that ratio represent aesthetic perfection. Plants, galaxies, microorganisms, crystals and living things designed according to this rule imitated by artists are all examples of Allahfs superior artistry. Allah reveals in the Qurfan that He has created all things with a measure. Some of these verses read: [Allah has appointed a measure for all things.] (Qurfan, 65: 3) [Everything has its measure with Him.] (Qurfan, 13: 8)
Edited by poga 

awal


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Ron Webb
Male Humanism Senior Member Joined: 30 January 2008 Online Status: Online Posts: 1707 
Posted: 22 February 2008 at 5:03pm 
Originally posted by poga
i have given you Fibonacci sequence encoded within the deen of Islam and ask any pi and phi are connected As an amateur mathematician I am well aware of the Fibonacci sequence and the Golden Ratio. I don't know what you mean by "pi and phi" though.
in the Fibonacci sequence how can one get 4 and 19 because it begins with 1123581321
That is exactly my point (and I'm surprised I need to explain this to you). You're simply picking and choosing numbers which happen to fit the Fibonacci sequence. If you had needed a 4, the Madhabs would have provided it. If you needed a 7, you would have cited the seven heavens. And so on. Things get even more arbitrary when you start adding unrelated numbers together to make other numbers. In short, you're making the data fit the theory instead of the other way around. 

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poga
Senior Member Joined: 03 January 2007 Location: United Kingdom Online Status: Offline Posts: 322 
Posted: 22 February 2008 at 8:59pm 
Originally posted by Ron Webb
Originally posted by poga
i have given you Fibonacci sequence encoded within the deen of Islam and ask any pi and phi are connected As an amateur mathematician I am well aware of the Fibonacci sequence and the Golden Ratio. I don't know what you mean by "pi and phi" though.
in the Fibonacci sequence how can one get 4 and 19 because it begins with 1123581321
you say you know about golden ratio yet you do not know how phi and pi are connected what can i say apart from you need glasses you again say i placed this sequence who am i to place anything in ISLAM it was done by our Prophet MUHAMMAD Sallel la Hu Alahi Wa Sallim i only discovered it like Rashid Khalifa discovered mathmetical miracle of QURAN yet by QURAN he became KAFFIR while SUNNAH saved one KAFFIR to become Musalman yet again you say four madhab how can there be four in Fibonacci sequence what can i say apart from what i said before deaf dumb and blind will never see Barzakh : He gave Fibbonacci formula in the HADITH of BIDAH E HASANAH and the sequence in the DEEN of ISLAM from SWEETSWORDS SEE there if you are not BLIND first there is SHAHADAH and with this SHAHADAH there two name MUHAMMAD and ALLAH who placed them me or ALLAH and his Prophet then there is QURAN and SUNNAH Third is IMAN AMAL and EHSAAN who placed them in ISLAM me or ALLAH and his Prophet
That is exactly my point (and I'm surprised I need to explain this to you). You're simply picking and choosing numbers which happen to fit the Fibonacci sequence. If you had needed a 4, the Madhabs would have provided it. If you needed a 7, you would have cited the seven heavens. And so on. Things get even more arbitrary when you start adding unrelated numbers together to make other numbers. In short, you're making the data fit the theory instead of the other way around. 

awal


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Diagoras
Senior Member Joined: 06 November 2007 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 115 
Posted: 23 February 2008 at 10:24pm 
Hey everyone,
Work and school have been both killing me, and will continue to do so for the near future. I'll try to get one more reply in and attempt to cover all your points in that one, probably tomorrow, then I probably won't get a chance to get back to this thread again in at least two weeks. However, seeing as Ron Webb here has been picking up my slack, I hereby appoint him the official atheist of this thread. He shall have the power to levy taxes, declare war, and regulate trade but NOT to confer titles or pass bills of attainder. Direct all questions, comments, complaints, and deaththreats to him. Anyway, I'll get my parting shots in tomorrow and see you all in a month, when I'll return to gloriously reclaim the thread. 'Till then, Godspeed. 

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Andalus
Moderator Group Joined: 12 October 2005 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 1187 
Posted: 24 February 2008 at 8:03am 
Originally posted by Diagoras
Hey everyone, Work and school have been both killing me, and will continue to do so for the near future. I'll try to get one more reply in and attempt to cover all your points in that one, probably tomorrow, then I probably won't get a chance to get back to this thread again in at least two weeks. However, seeing as Ron Webb here has been picking up my slack, I hereby appoint him the official atheist of this thread. He shall have the power to levy taxes, declare war, and regulate trade but NOT to confer titles or pass bills of attainder. Direct all questions, comments, complaints, and deaththreats to him. Anyway, I'll get my parting shots in tomorrow and see you all in a month, when I'll return to gloriously reclaim the thread. 'Till then, Godspeed. After the numerous pages of this thread that have developed and your refusal to contribute anything of real, solid value, I doubt that you will have anything of substance to offer (links and appealing to ideas from wikipeida do not count). Keep in mind that if, upon your return, your replies are the same rubbish that you have been writing, the thread will close. As a courtesy to you, I am leaving the thread open for now. Once a thread begins to move away from benefit, they are "normally" closed, which is where this thread was headed until this last reply by you. regards 

A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. Ibn 'Ata'llah
http://www.sunnipath.com http://www.sunniforum.com/forum/ http://www.ptgo.com/ 

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Ron Webb
Male Humanism Senior Member Joined: 30 January 2008 Online Status: Online Posts: 1707 
Posted: 24 February 2008 at 9:30am 
Originally posted by Diagoras
However, seeing as Ron Webb here has been picking up my slack, I hereby appoint him the official atheist of this thread. He shall have the power to levy taxes, declare war, and regulate trade but NOT to confer titles or pass bills of attainder. Direct all questions, comments, complaints, and deaththreats to him. Just for the record, I'm not comfortable with the "official atheist" designation. My personal views are complex and I don't like to be reduced to a a label, but if you need one, "agnostic" would be better. I can see the world from a variety of points of view. Atheism is just one of many patterns that can be applied to the universe. It happens to be my preferred pattern, but it isn't the only one. But I agree with Andalus that this discussion has pretty much passed its "best before" date. 

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