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Message Icon Topic: Whose the Terrorist Muslim or Christian? Post Reply Post New Topic
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Tom123
 
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Quote Tom123 Replybullet Posted: 02 January 2008 at 7:22am

In answer to your question "who is the terrorist- Muslim or Christian?", how about a third option- neither???

   A Muslim who is faithful to Islam would never attack someone unless if in self-defence and in war s/he would never murder civilians.

   A Christian who is faithful to the Gospel would never attack or seek to harm anyone, even if in self-defence, and would instead pray for their enemies and work for peace.

   The Bushes and bin Ladens are using religion to justify terrorism, imperialism, occupation and other forms of murder. Neither Christianity or Islam allow for the crimes they commit.

   Cristo Vive!

      - Tomasz

       

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Israfil
 
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Quote Israfil Replybullet Posted: 02 January 2008 at 8:57am

Tom123:

 "A Christian who is faithful to the Gospel would never attack or seek to harm anyone, even if in self-defence, and would instead pray for their enemies and work for peace."

That is the lamest and most wrongful answer you have said. I know many Christians who are "God fearing" but would take a persons life in a second if their life was in danger. Tom123 no offense because I don't know you in real life but you must be two things: 1) A wimp or 2) totally blind by ignorance. I remember in a previous thread I asked you would you be willing to take someones life to defend your family and you said you'd try to reason with someone or something along those lines. Although your answer is quite noble I still believe judging by your posts that your neo-altruist Christian thinking is not logical.

A Christian regardless whether he or she is quite religious/spiritual is still capable of committing evil and good, and murder people whether with evil or good (for defense) intent.

*Note: Tom you seem to be very good human being with a good heart and I admire your passion for good will. Perhaps I have a different perpspective on the issue of defense since I obviously grew up differently than you. I too cherish the life of others even if they are scum like terrorist however I believe as humans since we are instinctively selfish about our own life, should consider defending ourselves when our lives and the lives of our family is in danger. It is a misinterpretation to say Christians are taught to lay down their lives for their enemies. That is misinformation, not Christian. If anything if you are ignorant of what you say perhaps you are tappig into the selfishness of what you'll receive after death than the logic in this life.



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Chelle
 
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Quote Chelle Replybullet Posted: 02 January 2008 at 10:11am
I think what Tom is trying to say (and I agree with him) is that if someone is committing evil acts, they are not TRULY Christian or Muslim.  They are not following the doctrine of the religion they allegedly support and therefore should not be considered members of that faith.
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Quote OSCAR Replybullet Posted: 02 January 2008 at 2:38pm

Originally posted by Anatolian

Oscar you emphasize the word "Christian" when you speak of the West. As a
Christian who lives in the West I don't FEEL it's Christian at all. The
seperation of Church and State in Europe and America means religion is NOT
part of it's economic or political goals. Christian communities who are to this
day suffering under an Islamic regime are not heard yet Kosovo Albanians
are backed up by this "Christian" West. (By the way the Kosovo Albanians are
Muslims in case you didn't know. So are majority of Bosniaks who, with the
help of the West have an independent state.) Enough labeling NATO, The EU,
The US, Canada, and everybody who has one Christian more living in a
country that those policies are Christian. There not. Grow up and get
yourself an education. Try not to sound so foolish.

 

i didn't say the Wests leaders are Christians, I'M ONLY QUOTING WHAT THEY HAVE SAID.

SEPARATION OF NOTHING, CHRISTIANS ARE HIDING BEHIND DEMOCRACY TO COMMIT IMMORAL ACTS AROUND THE WORLD

Anatolia get yourself the truth



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Anatolian
 
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Quote Anatolian Replybullet Posted: 03 January 2008 at 12:27am
Oscar, please read your post. Here I'll quote it again.

"but according to the Christian west..." I see what your doing, you want us
to make sure that the West is Christian. Subconsciously telling us that the
West's attacks are also Christian based. I reiterate, grow up.

The world has been and will always be ruled by greed. In order to feed
your greed you must make war, disease, destruction... in order to survive.
That is a fact. Christianity is timid. If it's been hijacked by these people it
is not the Bible, or Jesus, or the Saints, or the Pope, or the preacher it's
the actual individual who commits them. The war in Iraq has no basis in
Christianity. If the main objective was missionary work, evangelizing to
Muslims then I'll stand by your opinion. It's the complete opposite! It's a
rise in Islam, it's destruction to the indigenous Christian population
(Assyrian, Chaldeans, Armenians, Aramaics.) Nobody gained by this. No
Christian or Muslim only manufacturers of war machinery, oil companies,
and a selected few rulers of "The New World Order". The Pope and
countless other Christian leaders have protested (I already pointed this
example when Pope Benedict refused an audience with Rice.) Jewish
leaders have also been opposed to this.

"CHRISTIANS ARE HIDING BEHIND DEMOCRACY TO COMMIT IMMORAL
ACTS AROUND THE WORLD" Once again I remind you these people are
not Christian. This is where the problem is Oscar between my
understanding of one's religion and the way Muslims perceive an
individual. A Muslim believes if you are born a Muslim you die one. No
matter what. A Christian's point of view is this. You are born into a family
of Christians BUT your acts decide what you are. Means nothing to us if
your baptized or not it's how you treat others and how you live that
makes you a Christian. Not going to church once a year or on holidays
and a few days later committing the same sins. You can wear a cross
around your neck and quote Psalms all day long but that doesn't add up
to anything if your ACTS are deplorable.

Now I have explained this to you numerous times. If you care to
understand I'm glad if you will continue to generalize which you have
been doing since your first posts and replies here, then you have proven
your inability to comprehend a thing.
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nu001
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Quote nu001 Replybullet Posted: 03 January 2008 at 12:51am
Originally posted by Tom123

In answer to your question "who is the terrorist- Muslim or Christian?", how about a third option- neither???

   A Muslim who is faithful to Islam would never attack someone unless if in self-defence and in war s/he would never murder civilians.

   A Christian who is faithful to the Gospel would never attack or seek to harm anyone, even if in self-defence, and would instead pray for their enemies and work for peace.

   The Bushes and bin Ladens are using religion to justify terrorism, imperialism, occupation and other forms of murder. Neither Christianity or Islam allow for the crimes they commit.

   Cristo Vive!

      - Tomasz

 

I like to agree with Tom.

Israfil: I know many Christians who are "God fearing" but would take a persons life in a second if their life was in danger.

That is for self defense which is acceptable in Islam, but as tom said, if a christian is truly god fearing he even can't do that. "If someone slaps you on one cheek, offer him the other" is the teaching of bible. neither Islam nor christianity advocates anarchy and killings without permitted resons.

So who are making all these troubles? they are truly not believers.... so religion is the solution to all these problems, but the policy makers seem to look for it somewhere else.....

"Al-Quran-The only Straight path to success. Alhamdulillah"
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Anatolian
 
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Quote Anatolian Replybullet Posted: 03 January 2008 at 12:54am
Israfil,

Concerning Tom's reaction to violence. He is right. If we were to live as
such it would truly be wonderful. Greatest example was Christ on the
cross when He forgave his tormentors for what they had done. Oh wait
you guys don't believe Jesus was nailed to a cross but another man
posing as Christ... A little dogmatic difference shouldn't belittle this
example

I wish I can say that I feel or act as Tom does. As much as I have tried to
do so in my life, to turn the other cheek, I somewhat resort back at times
to revengeful attacks. I place that blame on the environment where I grew
up. The household was pure bliss but outside the house I had to fend that
way because it was the only way to comeback home in one piece. Maybe
the fact that I grew up near the Mediterranean has much to explain for

Can the same be said about Islam though? Let's use a bit of common
sense here. How can religion spread within a generation from the Arabian
peninsula to the Taurus mountains of Turkey to the Atlantic shores of
Morocco? I doubt peace was the answer. And to nu001's comment about
how Muhammed only attacked those who attacked him first. I will quote a
few Koranic verses for you. If you can find any references Jesus made
along the same lines please do inform me.

1) "Fight (kill) them (non Muslims) and Allah will punish them by your
hands, cover them with shame." Surah 9:14

2) "O ye who believe! Fight the unbelievers...let them find firmness in you
and know that Allah is with those who fear Him." Sunah 9:12

3) "Strike terror onto the enemies of Allah and your enemies" Sunah 8:60

4) Al Bukhari Vol. 4:196 (Hadith) Mohammed: "I have been ordered to
fight with the people till they say, none has the right to be worshipped
but Allah."

Number 4 was one of many to be used in the context of war. Prime
example of this is because there are no more Jews or Christians in Saudi
Arabia. What more evidence is there. The Jews (Banu Ḳainuḳa, the Banu
Ḳuraiẓa, and the Banu al-Naḍir.) were large Jewish clans who were settled
in Medina and Mecca long before Islam arrived. Where are they now?
There were indigenous Christian and Jewish tribes in Arabia. They are no
longer there...
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Angela
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Quote Angela Replybullet Posted: 03 January 2008 at 1:27am
Actually, Anatolian, the Chaldean Christians still number 100,000 and have only recently had to flee Bagdhad. 

Estimates of the population of Saudi Arabia are said to have anywhere from 200,000 to 800,000 christians.  Its just impossible to know because they are non-citizens.

The Maronite Church, Eastern Orthodox and Coptic Churches are all within Muslim dominated countries and have survived just fine. 

The Jews were dispersed over and over by all sorts of anti-Jewish groups.  There are only 14million worldwide.  That's hard to pin on one group of people.  Romans persecuted Jews, Catholics persecuted Jews, Crusaders, Invaders, Persians, Sultan's, Germans, Russians...

There is a group of nomads in the Saudi/Yemeni area that claim to be the descendants of the Sabians.  And there is a group in Yemen who claim to be the descendants of the Queen of Sheba (whom they name Bilquis, do not trust that spelling).

Now for your lovely quotes....you Evangelicals always love to take out of context.  Read the lines before 9:14.

YUSUFALI: If one amongst the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of Allah; and then escort him to where he can be secure. That is because they are men without knowledge.
PICKTHAL: And if anyone of the idolaters seeketh thy protection (O Muhammad), then protect him so that he may hear the Word of Allah, and afterward convey him to his place of safety. That is because they are a folk who know not.
SHAKIR: And if one of the idolaters seek protection from you, grant him protection till he hears the word of Allah, then make him attain his place of safety; this is because they are a people who do not know.

009.007
YUSUFALI: How can there be a league, before Allah and His Messenger, with the Pagans, except those with whom ye made a treaty near the sacred Mosque? As long as these stand true to you, stand ye true to them: for Allah doth love the righteous.
PICKTHAL: How can there be a treaty with Allah and with His messenger for the idolaters save those with whom ye made a treaty at the Inviolable Place of Worship? So long as they are true to you, be true to them. Lo! Allah loveth those who keep their duty.
SHAKIR: How can there be an agreement for the idolaters with Allah and with His Messenger; except those with whom you made an agreement at the Sacred Mosque? So as long as they are true to you, be true to them; surely Allah loves those who are careful (of their duty).

009.008
YUSUFALI: How (can there be such a league), seeing that if they get an advantage over you, they respect not in you the ties either of kinship or of covenant? With (fair words from) their mouths they entice you, but their hearts are averse from you; and most of them are rebellious and wicked.
PICKTHAL: How (can there be any treaty for the others) when, if they have the upper hand of you, they regard not pact nor honour in respect of you? They satisfy you with their mouths the while their hearts refuse. And most of them are wrongdoers.
SHAKIR: How (can it be)! while if they prevail against you, they would not pay regard in your case to ties of relationship, nor those of covenant; they please you with their mouths while their hearts do not consent; and most of them are transgressors.

009.009
YUSUFALI: The Signs of Allah have they sold for a miserable price, and (many) have they hindered from His way: evil indeed are the deeds they have done.
PICKTHAL: They have purchased with the revelations of Allah a little gain, so they debar (men) from His way. Lo! evil is that which they are wont to do.
SHAKIR: They have taken a small price for the communications of Allah, so they turn away from His way; surely evil is it that they do.

009.010
YUSUFALI: In a Believer they respect not the ties either of kinship or of covenant! It is they who have transgressed all bounds.
PICKTHAL: And they observe toward a believer neither pact nor honour. These are they who are transgressors.
SHAKIR: They do not pay regard to ties of relationship nor those of covenant in the case of a believer; and these are they who go beyond the limits.

009.011
YUSUFALI: But (even so), if they repent, establish regular prayers, and practise regular charity,- they are your brethren in Faith: (thus) do We explain the Signs in detail, for those who understand.
PICKTHAL: But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then are they your brethren in religion. We detail Our revelations for a people who have knowledge.
SHAKIR: But if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, they are your brethren in faith; and We make the communications clear for a people who know.

009.012
YUSUFALI: But if they violate their oaths after their covenant, and taunt you for your Faith,- fight ye the chiefs of Unfaith: for their oaths are nothing to them: that thus they may be restrained.
PICKTHAL: And if they break their pledges after their treaty (hath been made with you) and assail your religion, then fight the heads of disbelief - Lo! they have no binding oaths - in order that they may desist.
SHAKIR: And if they break their oaths after their agreement and (openly) revile your religion, then fight the leaders of unbelief-- surely their oaths are nothing-- so that they may desist.

009.013
YUSUFALI: Will ye not fight people who violated their oaths, plotted to expel the Messenger, and took the aggressive by being the first (to assault) you? Do ye fear them? Nay, it is Allah Whom ye should more justly fear, if ye believe!
PICKTHAL: Will ye not fight a folk who broke their solemn pledges, and purposed to drive out the messenger and did attack you first? What! Fear ye them? Now Allah hath more right that ye should fear Him, if ye are believers
SHAKIR: What! will you not fight a people who broke their oaths and aimed at the expulsion of the Messenger, and they attacked you first; do you fear them? But Allah is most deserving that you should fear Him, if you are believers.

009.014
YUSUFALI: Fight them, and Allah will punish them by your hands, cover them with shame, help you (to victory) over them, heal the breasts of Believers,
PICKTHAL: Fight them! Allah will chastise them at your hands, and He will lay them low and give you victory over them, and He will heal the breasts of folk who are believers.
SHAKIR: Fight them, Allah will punish them by your hands and bring them to disgrace, and assist you against them and heal the hearts of a believing people.

009.015
YUSUFALI: And still the indignation of their hearts. For Allah will turn (in mercy) to whom He will; and Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise.
PICKTHAL: And He will remove the anger of their hearts. Allah relenteth toward whom He will. Allah is Knower, Wise.
SHAKIR: And remove the rage of their hearts; and Allah turns (mercifully) to whom He pleases, and Allah is Knowing, Wise.



Clearly they are talking about fighting those that made peace treaties and then broke them. 



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