Active TopicsActive Topics  Display List of Forum MembersMemberlist  CalendarCalendar  Search The ForumSearch  HelpHelp
  RegisterRegister  LoginLogin  Old ForumOld Forum  Twitter  Facebook
Advertisement:
         

Islamic INTRAfaith Dialogue
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Islamic INTRAfaith Dialogue
Message Icon Topic: Sunni Shiite Islam Post Reply Post New Topic
<< Prev Page  of 13 Next >>
Author Message
Ayubi1187
 
Groupie
Groupie


Joined: 06 December 2001
Location: Somalia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 69
Quote Ayubi1187 Replybullet Posted: 06 June 2005 at 9:06am
Originally posted by Ali Zaki

We muslims believe that its big scam on part of some shia to deceive and misguide people.


A couple of interesting things in this statement that I would like to bring to the attention of other forum members.


1.) "We muslims believe...big scam on the part of some Shia..."


Of course, this implies that this individual considers Shia's to be non-Muslims. If this is the case, maybe you should continue this discussion on an Al-Quida, or other Wahabbi website.


Whats Al-Quida? Their is not secret about this our scholars have only recognize four madhabs and shia madhab is not one of them. I do not consider every shia as kaffir.

2.) "We muslims..." Amazing that someone could claim to be speaking for all Muslims. I can only imagine that this could be the case if Ayubi1187 considers the "Muslims" to be a very small group. If so, then see above comment for suggested alternate discussion location.



The question is how many muslims believe in this imam who is still hiding himself after 1000 year who will suddenly one day re appear naked in daylight? only shia do and the rest don't, so you can figure out the rest.


3.) Since noone is claiming that the 12th Imam has come our of occultation, then how could this proposition provide an mechanism "to deceive and misguide people". After all, how could an "invisible man" living, " in a cave somewhere" be an effective propoganda tool. Ayubi1187 must think that us "non-Muslims" are pretty uncreative.



The people who gained most from this imaginary imam are non other the the four so cold representatives of the imam. They claimed to have contact with this imam and to be his representative. The weirdest part is non of this four men have compiled or written any religious book. In the shia books they are always mention in connection with collecting qums from the poor people in the name of this imam. It was only this men who supposedly have sen the mehdi before he went in to ghayba. Ther is report from Abu jafar at-tusi one of the representatives said
“We knew exactly what we were into(cheating people) with Abul Qasim ibn Rawh. We used to fight like dogs over this matter (the collected money).”

For those who wish to know, I included some hadith on this topic,"...



Bihar al-anwar? Ithbat al-hudat?
IP IP Logged
Ali Zaki
 
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 10 May 2005
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 217
Quote Ali Zaki Replybullet Posted: 06 June 2005 at 9:16am

Br. Ayubi1187

REGARDING THE HADITH QUOTED FROM Bihar Al-Anwar and Ithbat Al-Hudat

I quoted these Hadith because they are very clear. If I show you hadith from mainstream Sunni transmitters that clarify this topic for you will you accept the authority of Imam Mahdi?

"The structure of faith is supported by four pillars endurance, conviction, justice and jihad."

Imam Ali (a.s.)
IP IP Logged
Ayubi1187
 
Groupie
Groupie


Joined: 06 December 2001
Location: Somalia
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 69
Quote Ayubi1187 Replybullet Posted: 06 June 2005 at 9:44am
Originally posted by Ali Zaki

Br. <SPAN =bold>Ayubi1187</SPAN>


<SPAN =bold>REGARDING THE HADITH QUOTED FROM Bihar Al-Anwar and Ithbat Al-Hudat</SPAN>


I quoted these Hadith because they are very clear. If I show you hadith from mainstream Sunni transmitters that clarify this topic for you will you accept the authority of Imam Mahdi?



Please don't confuse yourself with our Imam Mehdi mentioned in our books who will be born in the future with your imam who supposedly was born 1000 year ago and is hiding until today to re emerge later to his shia. Even Ahmadi cult use our hadith the same way shia do.
IP IP Logged
Tasneem
 
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 28 April 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 124
Quote Tasneem Replybullet Posted: 09 June 2005 at 6:36am

Assalam-alaikum!

For the first time I have read this thread. I was curious about why the Shias beat themselves and seem to be in mourning most of the time wearing black etc, but reading this whole discussion I am really startled by the complications that have been brought into our simple and easy to understand and follow religion - Islam!

It is all the more startling that when Abu Hadi writes: According to the Shia doctrine, he is alive on earth. Whether he is in an invisible cave or not, noone knowns. If you believe in Imam Mehdi(May Allah(s.w.a.) hasten his return) then what is your objection to the Shia doctrine. Is is that he guides the ummah while not being manifest or that he has remained alive for over 1000 years ?

We seek Allah's guidance which has been made clear to us in the Qur'an and not some Mehdi who is supposed to be hiding and guiding (Astaghfirullah) from a cave. What dimensions people give to Islam!  Allah, Most Compassionate and Merciful guide everyone of us to the Right Path and unite us Muslims to follow the straight way Ameen!



Edited by Tasneem
IP IP Logged
Ali Zaki
 
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 10 May 2005
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 217
Quote Ali Zaki Replybullet Posted: 09 June 2005 at 8:27am

Salam brother Tasneem,

Islam is simple, but not "simple-minded". Islam is easy to follow, but encourages it's followers to continue to increase their knowledge of all useful things, including religion. Allah judges us only based on our level of knowledge, but does not excuse those who "stick their heads in the sand".

REGARDING IMAM MAHDI (May Allah hastend his return)

I do now wish to comment extensively on this subject, as it requires a certain amount of pre-requisite knowledge to understand. Allah is the source of all authority, and Allah gave some of authority to the Holy Messenger(a.s.) by his will. The Prophet (a.s.) in turn designated a Wali during his lifetime and gave some of his "God-given" authority to his Wali (as was the practice of previous prophets). The Wali, during his lifetime, also designated his successor and passed the authority (Wasi) to him, etc, etc....and then to Imam Mahdi (who is hidden at this time, although we don't know the details of this and we cannot communicate with him directly). None of this is "Bidah" (and innovation) and is all supported extensively by Quran and Hadith.

If you would like to know more, see the "Hmmmm." topic in this forum, starting on page 5, or, many other sources of information are avilable upon request.

Salam

"The structure of faith is supported by four pillars endurance, conviction, justice and jihad."

Imam Ali (a.s.)
IP IP Logged
Tasneem
 
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 28 April 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 124
Quote Tasneem Replybullet Posted: 10 June 2005 at 3:53am

Wa-alaikum-Salaam

 

Mr Ali Zaki you have responded to one of my posts before when you stunned me (and perhaps many believers) when you ridiculed my post that conveyed the message of “Tauhid” under the thread “Islam for a Buddhist”. Despite being shocked that a believing Muslim could write this I ignored you assuming that you are a new revert who is still in the process of learning. Now that you have made it clear that you follow the Shia faith which baffles me on many fronts and because you have once more come forward to respond to my post I have a number of questions for you. I would also welcome input from any other Shia members.

 

Allah has said in Sura Al-Kahf:

018.001: Praise be to Allah, Who hath sent to His Servant the Book, and hath allowed therein no Crookedness:

018.002: (He hath made it) Straight (and Clear) in order that He may warn (the godless) of a terrible Punishment from Him, and that He may give Glad Tidings to the Believers who work righteous deeds, that they shall have a goodly Reward,

 

The Qur’an is Qaiyim meaning straight - opposite of crookedness and is clear without any ambiguity and makes things clear and perspicuous. Its directions are plain for everyone to understand. It is not full of mysteries and dark corners. According to the scholar and translator A Yusuf Ali whose translation is very widely read:”Any book that deals with the highest mysteries of spiritual life must necessarily have portions whose full meaning is clearer to some minds than to others not so well prepared. But here there is nowhere any mystification, any desire to wrap up things in dark sayings repugnant to human reason. God’s purpose to give clear warning of spiritual dangers and lead up to the highest bliss.”

 

018.054: We have explained in detail in this Qur'an, for the benefit of mankind, every kind of similitude: but man is, in most things, contentious.

 

003.007: He it is Who hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture wherein are clear revelations - they are the substance of the Book - and others (which are) allegorical. But those in whose hearts is doubt pursue, forsooth, that which is allegorical seeking (to cause) dissension by seeking to explain it. None knoweth its explanation save Allah. And those who are of sound instruction say: We believe therein; the whole is from our Lord; but only men of understanding really heed.

 

It is clear from the above verse that we are to follow the clear revelations and not worry about the allegorical. Keeping this in mind please explain quoting the verse from the Qur’an  and if possible the authentic Hadith (Qudsi, Sahih Bukhari or Sahih Muslim) answers to the following questions:

 

  1. The Shias practise “matam” or beating the chest to mourn the death of Hazrat Ali, Hassan and Hussain. Where does it say in the Qur’an to mourn their deaths even after 1400 years? It seems to me that people who practise this form of mourning and beating etc are not willing to accept Allah’s will and are continuously taunting Allah for the suffering of the above. The Prophet Mohammed fobade mourning beyond three days except for a woman whose husband has died in which case it is 4 months and ten days. If you follow the Qur’an and the teachings of Mohammed (SAW) can you please provide where this practise comes from?
  2. You’ve written: I do now wish to comment extensively on this subject, as it requires a certain amount of pre-requisite knowledge to understand. Allah is the source of all authority, and Allah gave some of authority to the Holy Messenger(a.s.) by his will. The Prophet (a.s.) in turn designated a Wali during his lifetime and gave some of his "God-given" authority to his Wali (as was the practice of previous prophets). The Wali, during his lifetime, also designated his successor and passed the authority (Wasi) to him, etc, etc....and then to Imam Mahdi (who is hidden at this time, although we don't know the details of this and we cannot communicate with him directly). None of this is "Bidah" (and innovation) and is all supported extensively by Quran and Hadith.”

 

I am too “simple minded” and worried about “sticking my head in the sand”. While you do not wish to extensively comment on this subject you nevertheless contend that it is not an innovation and is all supported extensively in the Qur’an and Hadith. Could you please give a few references from the Qur’an first and then the Hadith. Please give full quotations from the Qur’an.

 

  1. Unity1 has given a very good explanation of what the Shia’s practise and since you have not objected to the explanation I take it that the practise of this temporary contract marriage called “Mutah” is a reality. If so could you please give the sources from the Qur’an where one is allowed to enter into a temporary contract? As Allah has discouraged divorce and is a last resort when a married couple cannot bear to live with each other, how can a temporary marriage be allowed? It seems like it is legalising adultery, please forgive me if my understanding is wrong. What is the minimum and maximum periods that these contracts are entered into and where is the source of this permission?

 I have many more questions but I shall ask them after hearing from you.

IP IP Logged
Ali Zaki
 
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar

Joined: 10 May 2005
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 217
Quote Ali Zaki Replybullet Posted: 10 June 2005 at 8:02am

Salam Tasneem,

I think maybe you misunderstood my post under "Islam and Buddism". The verses you quoted from Quran establish GENERAL PRINCIPLES which are clear and unambigous. The APPLICATION of those GENERAL PRINCIPLES to a SPECIFIC individual (i.e., to say " he/she is going to hell, or, this group or that group is going to hell (other then those specifically mentioned in Quran such as the people of Pharoah) is what I was refering to. I won't spend alot of time on this, as this is not the appropriate thread for that discussion and Sunni and Shia do not disagree on this principle.

LET ME GO THROUGH YOUR QUESTIONS ONE BY ONE

1.)  The Shias practise “matam” or beating the chest to mourn the death of Hazrat Ali, Hassan and Hussain. ...

First of all, the practice of "beating the chest", "hitting the forehead", "self-mutilation", etc. are all cultural practices that the Shia Ulama unanimously agree are HARAM if they cause harm to the individual. However, the concept of the annual mouring the dealth (murder) of Imam Ali and Imam Hussain (I am not aware of any specific practices related to the martyrdom of Imam Hassan, however) is, of course, central to Shiism.

Of course, you will not find any Hadith (that would be acceptable to a Sunni) from the Prophet (a.s.) or anything in the Holy Quran that explicitly call for this type of ritual. As a result, many of our Sunni brothers accuse of us of "exageration" or even "creating innovations" in the religion by practicing these rituals.

One of the most concise and comprehensive statements regarding the importance of remembering Imam Husayn (a.s.) and the events of Karbala was made by the Imam (a.s.) himself, when he said,

" Imam Husayn ('a) says, "I have risen up to carry out amr bil ma'ruf, to revive the faith, and to struggle against corruption. My movement is one which is Islamic and aimed at reform." 

So the rememberance of Imam Husayn (and the same applies to Imam Ali (a.s.)) cannot be compared with a typical funeral and mourning period. Let me explain using the words of the Imam (a.s.).

" I have risen up to carry our amr bil ma'ruf"

"Do not follow those who have forgotten mention of Me and pursue their own fancies." (18:27) 

Today, the anti-Islamic behavior, both in his personal life and his actions as "Caliphate" of Yazid ibn Muawiyah are well know (ie., drinking alchohol in public, incest, playing with monkeys, etc.). However, at the time of Imam Husayn (a.s.), these things were known by only a small group of people due to lack of any effective opposition movement. In Imam Husayn (a.s.) refusing to pay allegience to such a person, he was educating the Umma about the neccessity of not following such a person, as supported by numerous verses of Quran, Hadith, etc.

"to revive the faith, and the struggle against corruption"

It is well known that due to the lack of proper leadership of the Muslim Umma during the Caliphate of Muawiya, the Muslim Umma was largely unaware of many of the truth of Islam. Such practices as cursing Imam Ali (a.s.) from pulpit, fabrication of Hadith and exiling or executing prominant companions of the Prophet such as (Abu Tharr) had weakened the faith of the majority of the Muslims and "paved the road" for the spread of corruption and innovation. Imam Husayn stood firmly for the religion of Islam as preached by his grandfather, and reawakened the Muslim Umma of the time to the true, original Islam.

In regards to the struggle against corruption, this applies today as well. When Shia today celebrate Ashura, we are reminded of the neccessity of stading aginst corrpution and stading for justice for all mankind.

I can answer this question in more detail, if you like.

I have asked many times for authentic sources that the Sunni will accept of eyewitness acconts of the events at Karbala and Sham. Since we both agree that the event occured, why no credible sources for information. I have previously quoted the speech of Imam Hussien, and was accused of spreading fabricated traditions. However, no alternate sources have been provided. I have yet to receive any reply from our Sunni brothers regarding my request.

2.) Regarding the proof in Quran and Hadith for the identity and person of Imam Mahdi.

There are no Ayat of Quran (that I am aware of) that address this issue.

Hadith

FROM IMAM ALI (a.s.)

" The promised Mahdi will emerge at the End of Time from among us. There is no Mahdi in any nation other than him being awaited." Ithbat al-hudat, Vol. 7, p. 147. There are 50 similar reports from Imam Ali (a.s.)

FROM IMAM HUSSIEN (a.s.)

" Twelve Imams will be from among us. The first among them will be 'Ali b. Abi Talib and the last will be my ninth descendant, the rightful Qa'im. Because of his blessed existence God will bring back the dead earth to life and prosperity. God will give victory to His religion over all other religions, even if this be against the liking of the disbelievers. The Mahdi will disappear from public for a while. During his occultation a number of people will abandon religion, whereas others will remain steadfast and will suffer because of their faith. This latter group will be asked tauntingly: "If your belief is true, when would your promised Imam rise?" But, remember that whoever perseveres under those unfavorable circumstances when enemies would falsify and harm them, their status will be like those who fought by the side of the Prophet in defending the religion of God."

Ibid., Vol. 2, pp. 333, 399; Majlisi, Bihar al-anwar, Vol. 51, p. 133. There are thirteen more traditions reported from Imam Husayn.

FROM IMAM JAFAR AS-SADIQ (a.s.)

"Ja'far b. Muhammad Sadiq said:

Whoever acknowledges all the Imams, but denies the existence of the Mahdi, is like the one who acknowledges all the prophets but denies the prophethood of Muhammad (peace be upon him).

Someone asked him: "Among whose descendants is the Mahdi?" The Imam responded:

The fifth progeny of the seventh Imam [Musa Kazim] will be the Mahdi. However, he will disappear. It is not proper for you to name him."

Bihar al-anwar, Vol. 51, p. 143; Ithbat al-hudat, Vol. 2, p. 404. There are one hundred and twenty-three additional traditions reported on the authority of al-Sadiq.

Of course, all of these traditions are from the Imams themselves (and from authentic Shia sources). There are two problems with discussing these issues with our Sunni brothers.

1.) SOURCES. Again, our Sunni brothers claims to respect and love the Ahly Al'Bayt (Imam Ali (a.s.), Imam Hussien (a.s.)), however, they will not accept our hadith from them and they will not present any alternative collection of authentic Hadith from them. As a result, they treat them like those people who have a very lovely, expensive Quran in their home that is never actually opened or read.

2.) Their are many Hadith from Imam Jarar As'Sadiq regarding the identity of Imam Mahdi, however, again our Sunni brothers do not accept our hadith from him (although they claim to accept his scholarly status, in general) and do not present any alternative collection of hadith . As a result, the Imam is respected but wholly ignored on these issues.

This is what I meant by pre-requisite knowedge. A person must accept (first) the Immate of Imam Ali (a.s), then that of his progeny, otherwise, this point cannot be logically discussed. (for the above reasons)

3.) REGARDING "Mutah" (temporary marriage).

This is simple to explain. It is well known that this was practiced during the lifetime of the Prophet, and it was never abrogated (nullified) by him. Omar said that this practice was allowed during the time of the prophet but I am aborgating it. Not even Imam Ali (a.s.), is able to (nor did he ever attempt to) alter the Sunnah of the Prophet. Who, then, gave Omar the authority to do it?

Salam,


 

"The structure of faith is supported by four pillars endurance, conviction, justice and jihad."

Imam Ali (a.s.)
IP IP Logged
Tasneem
 
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 28 April 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 124
Quote Tasneem Replybullet Posted: 11 June 2005 at 4:25am

Assalam-alaikum Mr Ali Zaki

Thankyou for the explanation. The first and foremost source of guidance for a Muslim is the Qur'an and the Sunnah of the Prophet Mohammed (SAW). In your response you say that all the practises discussed above are supported by the Qur'an and (Hadith), but I am disappointed that you have not quoted any verse from the Qur'an to support your argument.

"Do not follow those who have forgotten mention of Me and pursue their own fancies." (18:27)”

I am not sure where you got this from. Verse 18:27 in the Qur’an is

And recite (and teach) what has been revealed to thee of the Book of thy Lord: none can change His Words, and none wilt thou find as a refuge other than Him.” 018.027

 May be I am asking too many questions and causing confusion for you, so let us take one issue at a time.

You have written :

3.) REGARDING "Mutah" (temporary marriage).

This is simple to explain. It is well known that this was practiced during the lifetime of the Prophet, and it was never abrogated (nullified) by him. Omar said that this practice was allowed during the time of the prophet but I am aborgating it. Not even Imam Ali (a.s.), is able to (nor did he ever attempt to) alter the Sunnah of the Prophet. Who, then, gave Omar the authority to do it?

After Islam was perfected many of the pagan practises that existed during the time of the Prophet Mohammed (SAW) and those before his time were all abrogated. Whether or not you agree with me about it, as a Muslim you would agree that we should first follow the laws of marriage as laid out to us in the Qur'an by Allah the sole creator of the universe! Islam has been perfected for us and all the commands of Allah have nothing but benefit for us.

Instead of following the commands of Allah by dwelling upon the Quran when we direct our attention to historical events and base the practise of our life making human beings as our heros there is the grave danger of falling into sin whilst thinking that we are doing right. If this was the practise of anyone you revere, they may have done it under completely different circumstances and for different reasons. Allah has said in the Qur’an:

018.103: Say: "Shall we tell you of those who lose most in respect of their deeds?-

018.104: Those whose efforts have been wasted in this life, while they thought that they were acquiring good by their works?"

Allah has made it plain and clear in the Qur’an that we should obey Him and obey His Apostle Mohammed (SAW). The laws pertaining to marriage, divorce, inheritance etc have been discussed at length in the Qur’an.

 But this practise of temporary contract marriage raises a number of questions in my mind that would be very harmful to the entire community.

1. Can you tell me, who gets custody of the child in a temporary marriage?

2. Say a woman has entered into two contracts one after another the first contract being for a six month period. Immediately after finishing this contract she enters into another contract and a child is born to her. How is it decided whose child it is and who gets custody of this child?

3. Is there a period of "iddat" for the woman after the contract has ended? Who maintains her during this period? If not does she go back to her parents after ending the contract? 

3. How can a community allow the formation of a society where a child would grow up with a single parent despite not being an orphan?

4. A marriage in Islam should not be based on lust, how would you explain the reasons why these temporary marriages are contracted?

I look forward to your response and will move to other issues later. To me the first source of guidance is the Qur’an so I look forward to quotations from the Qur’an.

 

 

IP IP Logged
<< Prev Page  of 13 Next >>
Post Reply Post New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

Disclaimer:
The opinions expressed herein contain positions and viewpoints that are not necessarily those of IslamiCity. This forum is offered to stimulate dialogue and discussion in our continuing mission of being an educational organization.
If there is any issue with any of the postings please email to icforum at islamicity.com or if you are a forum's member you can use the report button.

Note: The 99 names of Allah avatars are courtesy of www.arthafez.com

Advertisement:



Sponsored by:
Islamicity Membership Program:
IslamiCity Donation Program  http://www.islamicity.com/Donate
IslamiCity Arabic eLearning http://www.islamiCity.com/ArabAcademy
Complete Domain & Hosting Solutions www.icDomain.com
Home for Muslim Tunes www.icTunes.com
Islamic Video Collections www.islamiTV.com
IslamiCity Marriage Site www.icMarriage.com