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Islamic INTRAfaith Dialogue
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midway
 
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Quote midway Replybullet Posted: 02 June 2005 at 4:36pm

Assalaamu alaikum

 

 

Dear brother Ali Zaki,

 

 

Would you mind clarifying a muse of mine?

 

 

I see you take pride in the fact that you follow a path, which agrees with the Ahadith of the Prophet (SAW) with regards to the 12 Caliphs of Islam.

 

May I ask who is your current leader?

 

 

 

Many kind regards

midway

 

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Ali Zaki
 
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Quote Ali Zaki Replybullet Posted: 03 June 2005 at 7:00am

Peace to you, Midway

Our current leader is Imam Mahdi (May Allah hasten his return). Since you asked a direct question, this is the direct answer and more information can be provided upon request.

"The structure of faith is supported by four pillars endurance, conviction, justice and jihad."

Imam Ali (a.s.)
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Quote Ayubi1187 Replybullet Posted: 04 June 2005 at 10:27am
Originally posted by Ali Zaki

Peace to you, Midway

Our current leader is Imam Mahdi (May Allah hasten his return). Since you asked a direct question, this is the direct answer and more information can be provided upon request.

Whats the purpose of his leadership if he is hiding in cave for 1000year? A leader is one who is with the people. When the 1000year old shia mehdi comes out of his invisible hiding place thats when you can clime he is your curren leader. Ofcourse it would be something ells if your beliefs is that he is guiding you like the holy ghost is guiding the christians every day



Edited by Ayubi1187
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Quote Abu Hadi Replybullet Posted: 04 June 2005 at 4:29pm

Salams to all, Ayubi1187 wrote,

Whats the purpose of his leadership if he is hiding in cave for 1000year? A leader is one who is with the people. When the 1000year old shia mehdi comes out of his invisible hiding place thats when you can clime he is your curren leader. Ofcourse it would be something ells if your beliefs is that he is guiding you like the holy ghost is guiding the christians every day

This is really off the original topic that we are discussing. Although I thought about not responding, I will anyway. First point, If you are going to post on an English forum, please make some attempt to use proper grammar, spelling, and spaces. Second point, Imam Mehdi is not invisible. If you are claiming he is invisible (like in the movie, 'The Invisible Man'), please give your source for this as I have never heard of it.  He is living on earth, somewhere that is unknown to his followers at the current time. This is my understanding. If a knowledgeable person on this forum, such as Ali Zaki or jello , would like to expand further on this, I would like to listen. And third, your comparison of Imam Mehdi to the Holy Ghost shows that you know nothing about either Imam Mehdi or the Holy Ghost. I happen to be a muslim re-vert ( I was born as a Christian and reverted to Islam when I was 20 years old) and (In Shah Allah) a follower of Ahl Al Bayt, so I know a little about both. I will not go into the details about the fallacy of this comparison, as it will probably bore most readers of this forum. In breif, Christians believe that the Holy Ghost is the third entity in the triune god head commonly known as the Holy Trinity. The Holy Ghost (as the christians believe) guides by manifesting itself as a physical entity (i.e. flames on the Day of Pentacost) or as a spiritual force that is felt in the hearts of the faithful christian. Obviously, we (as muslims) reject the possibility of Allah(s.w.a) being subdivided into parts, and call this shirik. We also reject the idea that Allah(s.w.a) would manifest Himself in a physical form. To conclude this point, there can never be any comparison between the Christian doctrine of the Holy Spirit and any Islamic doctrine, including the doctrine of Imam Mehdi (May Allah hasten his return) because there is no equivalent doctrine in Islam that is similar to the Christian doctrine of the Holy Spirit. Since there is no equivalent main doctrine, as was just stated, there can be no equivalency in derived doctrine (i.e. guidance).

The fourth point is that is this: If you are so skeptical about the doctrine of Imam Mehdi, know that this is a widely held doctrine amoung muslims, both Shia and Sunni. Here is one of many sources for you to consider. If this is not sufficient, I will provide more...

The Prophet (PBUH&HF) said: "Even if the entire duration of the world's existence has already been exhausted and only one day is left (before the day of judgment), Allah will expand that day to such a length of time, as to accommodate the kingdom of a person from my Ahlul-Bayt who will be called by my name. He will fill out the earth with peace and justice as it will have been full of injustice and tyranny (by then)."

Sunni References:

  • Sahih al-Tirmidhi, v2, p86, v9, pp 74-75
  • Sunan Abu Dawud, v2, p7
  • Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v1, pp 84,376; V3, p63
  • al-Mustadrak ala al-Sahihayn, by al-Hakim, v4, p557
  • Jami' al-Saghir, by al-Suyuti, pp 2,160
  • al-Urful Wardi, by al-Suyuti, p2
  • al-Majma', by al-Tabarani, p217
  • Tahdhib al-Tahdhib, by Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani, v9, p144
  • Fat'h al-Bari fi Sharh Sahih al-Bukhari, by Ibn Hajar Asqalani, v7, p305
  • al-Sawa'iq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar al-Haythami, Ch. 11, section 1, p249
  • al-Tathkirah, by al-Qurtubi, p617
  • al-Hawi, by al-Suyuti, v2, pp 165-166
  • Sharh al-Mawahib al-Ladunniyyah, by al-Zurqani, v5, p348
  • Fat'h al-Mugheeth, by al-Sakhawi, v3, p41
  • Kanz al-Ummal, v7 P186
  • Iqd al-Durar Fi Akhbar al-Mahdi al-Muntadhar, v12, Ch. 1,
  • al-Bayan fi Akhbar Sahib al-Zaman, By Ganji al-Shafi'i, Ch. 12
  • al-Fusool al-Muhimmah, by Ibn Sabbagh al-Maliki, Ch. 12
  • Arjahul Matalib, by Ubaidallah Hindi al-Hanafi, p380
  • Muqaddimah, by Ibn Khaldoon, p266
  • and also in the works of Ibn Habban, Abu Nua'ym, Ibn Asakir, etc.

 

 

There is no compulsion in religion; truly the right way has become clearly distinct from error...
Quran Ch.2 Verse 256
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Ayubi1187
 
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Quote Ayubi1187 Replybullet Posted: 05 June 2005 at 1:32am
Originally posted by Abu Hadi

Salams to all, Ayubi1187 wrote,

Whats the purpose of his leadership if he is hiding in cave for 1000year? A leader is one who is with the people. When the 1000year old shia mehdi comes out of his invisible hiding place thats when you can clime he is your curren leader. Ofcourse it would be something ells if your beliefs is that he is guiding you like the holy ghost is guiding the christians every day

This is really off the original topic that we are discussing. Although I thought about not responding, I will anyway. First point, If you are going to post on an English forum, please make some attempt to use proper grammar, spelling, and spaces. Second point, Imam Mehdi is not invisible. If you are claiming he is invisible (like in the movie, 'The Invisible Man'), please give your source for this as I have never heard of it.  He is living on earth, somewhere that is unknown to his followers at the current time. This is my understanding. If a knowledgeable person on this forum, such as Ali Zaki or jello , would like to expand further on this, I would like to listen. And third, your comparison of Imam Mehdi to the Holy Ghost shows that you know nothing about either Imam Mehdi or the Holy Ghost. I happen to be a muslim re-vert ( I was born as a Christian and reverted to Islam when I was 20 years old) and (In Shah Allah) a follower of Ahl Al Bayt, so I know a little about both. I will not go into the details about the fallacy of this comparison, as it will probably bore most readers of this forum. In breif, Christians believe that the Holy Ghost is the third entity in the triune god head commonly known as the Holy Trinity. The Holy Ghost (as the christians believe) guides by manifesting itself as a physical entity (i.e. flames on the Day of Pentacost) or as a spiritual force that is felt in the hearts of the faithful christian. Obviously, we (as muslims) reject the possibility of Allah(s.w.a) being subdivided into parts, and call this shirik. We also reject the idea that Allah(s.w.a) would manifest Himself in a physical form. To conclude this point, there can never be any comparison between the Christian doctrine of the Holy Spirit and any Islamic doctrine, including the doctrine of Imam Mehdi (May Allah hasten his return) because there is no equivalent doctrine in Islam that is similar to the Christian doctrine of the Holy Spirit. Since there is no equivalent main doctrine, as was just stated, there can be no equivalency in derived doctrine (i.e. guidance).

The fourth point is that is this: If you are so skeptical about the doctrine of Imam Mehdi, know that this is a widely held doctrine amoung muslims, both Shia and Sunni. Here is one of many sources for you to consider. If this is not sufficient, I will provide more...

The Prophet (PBUH&HF) said: "Even if the entire duration of the world's existence has already been exhausted and only one day is left (before the day of judgment), Allah will expand that day to such a length of time, as to accommodate the kingdom of a person from my Ahlul-Bayt who will be called by my name. He will fill out the earth with peace and justice as it will have been full of injustice and tyranny (by then)."

Sunni References:

  • Sahih al-Tirmidhi, v2, p86, v9, pp 74-75
  • Sunan Abu Dawud, v2, p7
  • Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal, v1, pp 84,376; V3, p63
  • al-Mustadrak ala al-Sahihayn, by al-Hakim, v4, p557
  • Jami' al-Saghir, by al-Suyuti, pp 2,160
  • al-Urful Wardi, by al-Suyuti, p2
  • al-Majma', by al-Tabarani, p217
  • Tahdhib al-Tahdhib, by Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani, v9, p144
  • Fat'h al-Bari fi Sharh Sahih al-Bukhari, by Ibn Hajar Asqalani, v7, p305
  • al-Sawa'iq al-Muhriqah, by Ibn Hajar al-Haythami, Ch. 11, section 1, p249
  • al-Tathkirah, by al-Qurtubi, p617
  • al-Hawi, by al-Suyuti, v2, pp 165-166
  • Sharh al-Mawahib al-Ladunniyyah, by al-Zurqani, v5, p348
  • Fat'h al-Mugheeth, by al-Sakhawi, v3, p41
  • Kanz al-Ummal, v7 P186
  • Iqd al-Durar Fi Akhbar al-Mahdi al-Muntadhar, v12, Ch. 1,
  • al-Bayan fi Akhbar Sahib al-Zaman, By Ganji al-Shafi'i, Ch. 12
  • al-Fusool al-Muhimmah, by Ibn Sabbagh al-Maliki, Ch. 12
  • Arjahul Matalib, by Ubaidallah Hindi al-Hanafi, p380
  • Muqaddimah, by Ibn Khaldoon, p266
  • and also in the works of Ibn Habban, Abu Nua'ym, Ibn Asakir, etc.

Their is no need to write such lengthy explanation for something so simple. The similarity is ther your leader is not with you thats men he is leading you threw other means like the holy ghost do.

I think you are little confused when it comes to imam mehdi. We from ahlul-sunnah believe in the coming of Imam mehdi so no need to quote to me about that. I'm only objecting to the shia doctrine of imam mehdi who according to shia was alredy born and is hiding in invisible cave for 1000 year.



Edited by Ayubi1187
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Quote Abu Hadi Replybullet Posted: 05 June 2005 at 3:55am

Salams to all,

According to the Shia doctrine, he is alive on earth. Whether he is in an invisible cave or not, noone knowns. If you believe in Imam Mehdi(May Allah(s.w.a.) hasten his return) then what is your objection to the Shia doctrine. Is is that he guides the ummah while not being manifest or that he has remained alive for over 1000 years ?

There is no compulsion in religion; truly the right way has become clearly distinct from error...
Quran Ch.2 Verse 256
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Quote Ayubi1187 Replybullet Posted: 05 June 2005 at 4:31am
Originally posted by Abu Hadi

Salams to all,

According to the Shia doctrine, he is alive on earth. Whether he is in an invisible cave or not, noone knowns. If you believe in Imam Mehdi(May Allah(s.w.a.) hasten his return) then what is your objection to the Shia doctrine. Is is that he guides the ummah while not being manifest or that he has remained alive for over 1000 years ?

You can read from my post the objections we muslims have with the mythical shia mehdi who is still hiding after 1000 year to come out later to his shia, every thing about him is fishy . We muslims believe that its big scam on part of some shia to deceive and misguide people. We have sen allot of mehdis in the history of islam and the last one who claimed to be mehdi was Ghulam Ahmad.

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Quote Ali Zaki Replybullet Posted: 06 June 2005 at 6:10am

We muslims believe that its big scam on part of some shia to deceive and misguide people.

A couple of interesting things in this statement that I would like to bring to the attention of other forum members.

1.) "We muslims believe...big scam on the part of some Shia..."

Of course, this implies that this individual considers Shia's to be non-Muslims. If this is the case, maybe you should continue this discussion on an Al-Quida, or other Wahabbi website.

2.) "We muslims..." Amazing that someone could claim to be speaking for all Muslims. I can only imagine that this could be the case if Ayubi1187 considers the "Muslims" to be a very small group. If so, then see above comment for suggested alternate discussion location.

3.) Since noone is claiming that the 12th Imam has come our of occultation, then how could this proposition provide an mechanism "to deceive and misguide people". After all, how could an "invisible man" living, " in a cave somewhere" be an effective propoganda tool. Ayubi1187 must think that us "non-Muslims" are pretty uncreative.

For those who wish to know, I included some hadith on this topic,"

"Fatima Zahra(a.s.) told her son Husayn(a.s.):

When I gave birth to you, the Prophet came to see me. He took you in his hands and said to me: "O Fatima, take your Husayn, and know that he is the father of nine Imams. From his descendants will appear righteous leaders among whom the ninth will be the Qa'im."[20]
Ithbat al-hudat, Vol. 2, p. 552."

"Whoever acknowledges all the Imams, but denies the existence of the Mahdi, is like the one who acknowledges all the prophets but denies the prophethood of Muhammad (peace be upon him).

Someone asked him (Imam Jafar aSadiq (a.s.) : "Among whose descendants is the Mahdi?" The Imam responded:

The fifth progeny of the seventh Imam [Musa Kazim] will be the Mahdi. However, he will disappear. It is not proper for you to name him.[25]"

Bihar al-anwar, Vol. 51, p. 143; Ithbat al-hudat, Vol. 2, p. 404

There are many, many more. I have only included these two to conserve space, and because I know that many of our Sunni brothers claim to accept Hadith from these persons (although they do not specifiy which sources they accept for there hadiths. Again, both these hadith are considered reliable by Shia Ulama (I do not know what the Sunni scholars say about them, however).

"The structure of faith is supported by four pillars endurance, conviction, justice and jihad."

Imam Ali (a.s.)
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