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Islamic INTRAfaith Dialogue
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Ali Zaki
 
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Quote Ali Zaki Replybullet Posted: 12 May 2005 at 3:59pm

To Israfil

Salam ala kum,

I respect your viewpoint, and would like to clarify one point and present my humble words.

Some sincere Muslims may ask" Why to the Shia seperate themselves, why don't they just say " We are Muslims, and that's all!" The main reason relates to the following issue.

(I apologize for the lengthy list of narrators, but I'm sure some will object to the following , and I want to establish that I am not making it up from myself)

Allah, the most Glorified and High says: "Allah wishes to remove all impurity from you, O members of the household, and to purify you completely" (33:33).

" The ahl al-sunna wa'l-Jama'a maintain that this verse was revealed for the wives of the Prophet (S.A.W.). They derive their proof from the context of the preceding and following verses. According to their claims, Allah therefore removed impurity from the wives of the Prophet and purified them completely.

Among them are those who add to the [list of the] wives of the Prophet, 'Ali, Fatima, al-Hasan and al-Husayn. But the truth, according to what has been transmitted, as well as according to reasoning, logic and history, refutes this explanation. [This is] because the ahl al-sunna narrate in their Sahihs that the verse was revealed regarding five people namely: Muhammad, 'Ali, Fatima, al-Hasan and al-Husayn, and that the Prophet of Allah (S.A.W.) identified them and his noble self as being referred to by the noble verse when he gathered 'Ali, Fatima, al-Hasan and al-Husayn with him under the cloak. He said: "O Allah! These are my household, so cleanse them of all impurity and purify them completely".

This narration has been reported by a large majority of Sunni scholars. I mention [some of] them:

1. Muslim in his Sahih, in "The Chapter on the Merits of the Prophet's household": Vol. 2, p. 368.

2. Al- Tirmidhi in his Sahih; Vol. 5, p. 30.

3. Al-Musnad, Imam Ahmad b. Hanbal; Vol. 1, p. 330.

4. Al-Mustadrak, al- Hakim; Vol. 3, p. 123.

5. Al-Khas'ais, Imam al-Nasa'i; p. 49

6. Talkhis, al-Dhahabi; Vol. 2, p. 150.

7. Mu'jam, al-Tabrani; Vol. 1, p. 65.

8. Shawahid al-Tanzil, Hakim al-Haskani; Vol. 2, p. 11.

9. Al-Bukhari in his Greater History; Vol. 1, p. 69.

10. Al-Isaba, Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani; Vol. 2, p. 502.

11. Tadhkira al-Khawas, Ibn al-Jawzi; p. 233.

12. Tafsir of al-Fakhr al-Razi; Vol. 2, p. 700.

13. The Fountains of Love, al-Qanduzi al-Hanafi; p. 107.

14. Manaqib of al-Khawarizmi, p. 23.

15. Al-Sira of al-Halabi, Vol. l3, p. 212.

16. Al-Sira of al-Dihlaniya; Vol. 3, p. 329.

17. Asad al-Ghaba, Ibn al-Athir; Vol. 2, p. 12.

18. Tafsir of al-Tabari; Vol. 22, p. 6.

19. Al-Dur al-Manthur, al-Suyuti; Vol. 5, p. 198.

20. Ta'rikh of Ibn Asakir; Vol. 1, p. 185.

21. Tafsir al-Kashshaf , al-Zamakhshari; Vol. 1, p. 193

22. Ahkam al-Qur'an , Ibn al-Arabi; Vol. 2, p. 166.

23. Tafsir al-Qurtubi, Vol. 14, p. 182.

24. Al-Sawa'iq al-Muhriqa of Ibn Hajar, p. 85.

25. Al-Isti'ab, Ibn Abd al-Barr; Vol. 3, p. 37.

26. Al-'Aqd al-Farid, Ibn 'Abd Rabbih; Vol. 4, p. 311

27. Muntakhab Kanz al-'Ummal; Vol. 5, p. 96.

28. Masabih al-Sunna, al-Baghawi, Vol. 2, p. 278.

29. Asbab al-Nuzul, al-Wahidi; p. 203.

30. Tafsir of Ibn Kathir; Vol. 3, p. 483.

SOURCE: http://www.al-islam.org/ask/3.html#1

YES, This is a lifted from Al-Islam.org, however, it is very important to understand the difference here (and the real souce of conflict).

The Quran and the prophet do not say of any other group that they have been cleansed from all sin, except the Ahl al Bayt.

This is why the Shia give their allegiance to them without question, while our Sunni brothers and sisters do not. This is the crux of the issue. If our non-Shia brothers and sisters in Islam would follow the orders of the prophet and Quran on this point, there would be not reason for any Fitna.

Our Sunni brothers and sisters say that the Shia are the ones who supported the (acording to the Sunni) the Fourth Rightly Guided Khalipate when he was accused by some of the companions of complicity or participation in the killing of Uthman. In reality, the shia (in the sense of the meaning of this verse) existed even during the lifetime of the prophet, and recognized Imam Ali (a.s.) as the rightful successor to the prophet (a.s.) during the prophet (a.s.)'s lifetime.

This is why we call ourselves Shia, which is shorthand for Shia of Ahl al-Bait or Shia of Ali (which are equivelent for obvious reasons).

Salam

"The structure of faith is supported by four pillars endurance, conviction, justice and jihad."

Imam Ali (a.s.)
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unity1
 
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Quote unity1 Replybullet Posted: 14 May 2005 at 12:54am

Comments on the post of Brother Ali Zaki.

I have presented my comments on your post , my post is in bold text and your post is in simple text.


Originally posted by Ali Zaki

To <SPAN =bold>Israfil</SPAN>


Salam ala kum,



You Said:

I respect your viewpoint, and would like to clarify one point and present my humble words.



Comment:
Thank you for your compliment, you are welcome to clarify our misconceptions.





You Said:

Some sincere Muslims may ask" Why to the Shia seperate themselves, why don't they just say " We are Muslims, and that's all!" The main reason relates to the following issue.



Comment:
First of all ,I would like to clarify that their is no such verse of the Qur'an which claims any muslim or any group of muslims to seperate themselves from the mainbody of muslims and on the other hand Prophet(pbuh) has mentioned the importance of the unity of muslims,he is reported to have said that "muslim Ummah is just like a body, when any part of the body gets injured or hurt ,the entire body suffers and feels the pain.
In the similar way, if any single muslim in the entire Muslim Ummah gets hurt ,the other muslims feel the pain and suffer."

Allah(swt) and His Messenger gives great priority to the unity of Muslim Ummah since our strength and progress lies in our unity.





You Said:

(I apologize for the lengthy list of narrators, but I'm sure some will object to the following , and I want to establish that I am not making it up from myself)


Allah, the most Glorified and High says: "Allah wishes to remove all impurity from you, O members of the household, and to purify you completely" (33:33).

" The ahl al-sunna wa'l-Jama'a maintain that this verse was revealed for the wives of the Prophet (S.A.W.). They derive their proof from the context of the preceding and following verses. According to their claims, Allah therefore removed impurity from the wives of the Prophet and purified them completely.

Comment:

If anyone reads the verses that preceed and follow this perticular verse of the Qur'an(33:33)with an unbiased mind,he or she without any hesitation and doubt will agree with the fact that this verse of purification(33:33) refers to the wives of the Prophet(pbuh).A family of any person cannot exclude the wife ,since wife plays not only the role of a wife but also a role of a mother and the status of a mother is 2nd highest in the family after father.
Their are two approaches that people take while reading and understanding the Qur'an, one is a biased approach and the other one is an unbiased approach. Whenever it comes to proving and justifying their point and belief,Shias unfortunately load their pre-concieved opinions and interpretation on the Qur'anic verses inorder to convince others of their beliefs instead of using an unbiased mind to understand those verses.
By the former approach, one not only understands the verses from a limited mind but also damages and violates the true purpose and messege of those verses which is I am sorry to say brother is typically an evil act. Allah(swt) has revealed the Qur'an for the guidance of entire mankind ,He has not revealed Qur'an so that one can load his point of views and interpretations on it and take certain verses out of context to prove their point.





You Said:

Among them are those who add to the [list of the] wives of the Prophet, 'Ali, Fatima, al-Hasan and al-Husayn. But the truth, according to what has been transmitted, as well as according to reasoning, logic and history, refutes this explanation. [This is] because the ahl al-sunna narrate in their Sahihs that the verse was revealed regarding five people namely: Muhammad, 'Ali, Fatima, al-Hasan and al-Husayn, and that the Prophet of Allah (S.A.W.) identified them and his noble self as being referred to by the noble verse when he gathered 'Ali, Fatima, al-Hasan and al-Husayn with him under the cloak. He said: "O Allah! These are my household, so cleanse them of all impurity and purify them completely".

This narration has been reported by a large majority of Sunni scholars. I mention [some of] them:

1. Muslim in his Sahih, in "The Chapter on the Merits of the Prophet's household": Vol. 2, p. 368.

2. Al- Tirmidhi in his Sahih; Vol. 5, p. 30.

3. Al-Musnad, Imam Ahmad b. Hanbal; Vol. 1, p. 330.

4. Al-Mustadrak, al- Hakim; Vol. 3, p. 123.

5. Al-Khas'ais, Imam al-Nasa'i; p. 49

6. Talkhis, al-Dhahabi; Vol. 2, p. 150.

7. Mu'jam, al-Tabrani; Vol. 1, p. 65.

8. Shawahid al-Tanzil, Hakim al-Haskani; Vol. 2, p. 11.

9. Al-Bukhari in his Greater History; Vol. 1, p. 69.

10. Al-Isaba, Ibn Hajar al-Asqalani; Vol. 2, p. 502.

11. Tadhkira al-Khawas, Ibn al-Jawzi; p. 233.

12. Tafsir of al-Fakhr al-Razi; Vol. 2, p. 700.

13. The Fountains of Love, al-Qanduzi al-Hanafi; p. 107.

14. Manaqib of al-Khawarizmi, p. 23.

15. Al-Sira of al-Halabi, Vol. l3, p. 212.

16. Al-Sira of al-Dihlaniya; Vol. 3, p. 329.

17. Asad al-Ghaba, Ibn al-Athir; Vol. 2, p. 12.

18. Tafsir of al-Tabari; Vol. 22, p. 6.

19. Al-Dur al-Manthur, al-Suyuti; Vol. 5, p. 198.

20. Ta'rikh of Ibn Asakir; Vol. 1, p. 185.

21. Tafsir al-Kashshaf , al-Zamakhshari; Vol. 1, p. 193

22. Ahkam al-Qur'an , Ibn al-Arabi; Vol. 2, p. 166.

23. Tafsir al-Qurtubi, Vol. 14, p. 182.

24. Al-Sawa'iq al-Muhriqa of Ibn Hajar, p. 85.

25. Al-Isti'ab, Ibn Abd al-Barr; Vol. 3, p. 37.

26. Al-'Aqd al-Farid, Ibn 'Abd Rabbih; Vol. 4, p. 311

27. Muntakhab Kanz al-'Ummal; Vol. 5, p. 96.

28. Masabih al-Sunna, al-Baghawi, Vol. 2, p. 278.

29. Asbab al-Nuzul, al-Wahidi; p. 203.

30. Tafsir of Ibn Kathir; Vol. 3, p. 483.


SOURCE: http://www.al-islam.org/ask/3.html#1


YES, This is a lifted from Al-Islam.org, however, it is very important to understand the difference here (and the real souce of conflict).



Comment:
You are most welcome to quote the references from any sources of tradition you like. I have visited the link www.al-islam.org ,and I donot agree with them completely. I have also asked the Scholars of this site some questions regarding Shias beliefs but so far they have not answered any single question of mine explicitly.Can you please explain me how does these references prove your point of view?






You Said:

The Quran and the prophet do not say of any other group that they have been cleansed from all sin, except the Ahl al Bayt.



Comment:
I donot understand how does this verse of purification(33:33) prove your point of view regarding the progeny of Ahl'l Bait? According to shiasm, the 12 Imams are infallible since the task they were assigned required them to be infallible and their duty is to implement the Law of Allah(swt) on the face of the earth.
Now my question is that on what basis do you hold Hazrat Bibi Fatimah(Ra) as infallible since she was neither a Prophet nor an Imam?





You Said:

This is why the Shia give their allegiance to them without question, while our Sunni brothers and sisters do not. This is the crux of the issue. If our non-Shia brothers and sisters in Islam would follow the orders of the prophet and Quran on this point, there would be not reason for any Fitna.



Comment:
According to my understanding and knowledge ,the fitna can end only when Shias and Sunnis both sit together and discuss the main cause of their differences in the light of Qur'an instead of accusing each other.




You Said:

Our Sunni brothers and sisters say that the Shia are the ones who supported the (acording to the Sunni) the Fourth Rightly Guided Khalipate when he was accused by some of the companions of complicity or participation in the killing of Uthman. In reality, the shia (in the sense of the meaning of this verse) existed even during the lifetime of the prophet, and recognized Imam Ali (a.s.) as the rightful successor to the prophet (a.s.) during the prophet (a.s.)'s lifetime.


This is why we call ourselves Shia, which is shorthand for Shia of Ahl al-Bait or Shia of Ali (which are equivelent for obvious reasons).



Comment:
The successorship of Prophet(pbuh) is an issue which has been under debate for Centuries. If Imam Ali(Ra) was truely the successor of Prophet(pbuh), then he would not have stated that he doesnot find himself capable for the post of Caliphate. Imagine an Infallible Imam saying that he is not capable for the post of Caliphate.

I hope I have made myself clear.

Regards


Salam


who call themselves superior are actually inferior in the eyes of Allah.Those who call themselves slaves of Allah are superior not only in the eyes of Allah but also superior in the eyes of man.
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Ali Zaki
 
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Quote Ali Zaki Replybullet Posted: 16 May 2005 at 6:13am

Salam unity 1,

Please reflect on the following verse from the Holy Quran

"He it is who has sent down upon thee the Book; in it are clear verses (muhkamat) , which are the mother of the Book, and others are ambiguous (mutashabihat). those in whose heart is sickness follow the ambiguous of them, seeking dissent and seeking their ta'wil, and none knows their ta'wil except Allah and those firmly grounded in knowledge. they say. 'We believe in it; all is from our Lord' ; yet none remembers but men possessed of minds."

(Surat Al'Imran, v.7)

According to the Shia, the phrase "those firmly grounded in knowledge" refers to the the Prophet (a.s.) and the Holy Imams from his household. However, even if you do not except this (and the famous Hadith which says "I leave among you two weighty things, The Holy Quran and my Ahl'al Bait, these two shall never part from eachother...), we must be very careful in doing our own tafseer of Quran. As far as I know, neither of us are religious scholars, nor we would consider ourselves to be among those "firmly grounded in knowledge" even in the common understanding of the term.

I have to admit, that I am becoming frustrated with the responses to my postings. I have invested considerable time and effort in documenting my sources of opinion as a courtesy to others and to allow a serious academic discussion. On the other hand if you review the responses to my posting, they can be catogrized as two types.

1.) Questions which are asked for the purpose of trying to cast doubt on the validity of my assertions.

2.) Non-scholarly opinion and speculation regarding the true meaning and interpretation of verses from the Holy Quran, Hadith and historical events.

As a courtesy, I would appreciate the following information in your responses.

1.) Instead of trying to "chip away" at my arguments based on you own opinions, please propose an ALTERNATIVE interpretation. This alternative should consider the points that I have made and offer another explanation that is not already addressed, or expand on something that has already been addressed. To just simply do your own tafseer of a verse and say that "it is obvious to anyone" is not what I am humbly asking for.

2.) PLEASE PROVIDE REFERENCES. All Muslims respect a scholarly opinion, and I am interested in hearing from those who are familiar with the works of scholars who have a different point of view.

If a person feels that his/her own knowledge is sufficient and that he does not need to resort to the guidance of knowledgeable persons, then the result is that his opinions will surely be a source only of misguidance to himself and others.

"The structure of faith is supported by four pillars endurance, conviction, justice and jihad."

Imam Ali (a.s.)
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Quote nadir Replybullet Posted: 16 May 2005 at 8:42am

 

Assalaamu alaikum

 

 

If I may offer my (Islamically) inexperienced voice to the discussion…..

 

 

I have had Christian friends of mine question the crescent some Muslim’s use on the top of Masjids, & Minarets etc.

 

Their questions (in part) emanated from our discussions with regards to the symbolism used in Christianity (ie the cross), & what it signifies (ie Isa (AS) been crucified for all ‘your’ sins….. well I might as well relax, & sin as much as I can then!!!).

 

 

If I may politely bring to (lifelong) Muslim’s attention, the fact that many people (of ignorance) actually think Islam is the worship of some pagan moon god, as a direct result of the symbolisation they see!!!!! I have only read a little into where & when the crescent first started to be used, but the main point here is that, it (the crescent) plays no role of importance in Islam (the worship of Allah [SWT]), but does play a role in turning people away from Islam.

 

Small & unnecessary additions to Islamic ‘culture’ such as the above, are widespread within modern Islamic culture. Self beating and mourning is just one of these.

 

The additions (that occur in many forms, & in many ‘sects’) may not necessarily (on an individual level) impede the participating people’s worship of Allah (SWT), but those actions certainly do effect how others (whether Muslim or not) perceive ‘their’ religion, & hence have an indirect effect on how those very people are treated (although fearing Allah [SWT] should be sufficient reason to cease).

 

 

Suleyman, you are able to act as a witness for me on this topic, as you asked me to put something down that was unnecessary, as far as my worship of Allah (SWT) is concerned (ie changing the colour of my words, so as not to irritate your eyes).

 

I could have said no go away, I like doing it this way, but instead I gave up something that was fond to me, for the sake of the whole. I realised that the action emanated from my habitual tendencies (pride/ego), & was not compulsory (within my religion), hence I was able to lay it down, even if initially there was some – resistance.

 

Maybe I am asking too much for lifelong Muslim’s to learn from me?!

But that won’t stop me from pointing these things out!

 

Wasalaam

nadir     

 

 
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Quote new_muslimah Replybullet Posted: 24 May 2005 at 1:17pm

dear brothers and sisters Salamun alaykum.I am a ne-revert to Islam after a long period of soul searching and reading. Islam is the most beautiful message of GOD.

After reading in-depth , after what happened after the demise of Holy Prophet (PBUH) , i concluded, that IMAM ALI is the rightly appointed successor to Holy Prophet and the followers of Imam Ali , have thus direct link to Holy Prophet.

Look at what Muawiyah did to Imam Ali....hundreds of people killed in Siffeen in the war against the RIGHTLY Appointed successor of Prophet. But I am amazed how my Sunni brothers and sisters just ignore this huge fact and still respect this person (muawiya)

Even if you look at the world today, True Islam is being represented by the teachings of Islamic Revolution in iran.

We have same book, same Allah, same Kaaba, same Prophet, but unfortunately, i have seen Salafis, curse and swear and label as Kafir 'other muslims". I have not met a single Shia brother or sister who will call others Kafir.

All this has led me to study Shia school deeply and I conlcuded that SHIAISM is the mainstream and the direct connection to Holy Prophet.

Another mind-boggling fact :

SON of Imam Ali, hussain gave up everything in karabala , when he was killed by Yazeed son of Muawiya.

But HOW MANY SUNNIS do we know who even respect and consider Imam hussain as a HERO of islam and condemn the killer army of yazid?

Despite the difference my shia -contacts urge me to join hands with other muslims based on our common points.

I just want to urge every one to be open and fair minded.

Long live Muslim Unity.

 



Allah is the Light of the Universe.
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Quote Ali Zaki Replybullet Posted: 24 May 2005 at 1:32pm

Salam Sister,

I'm sorry I don't have time (right now) to provide an adequate reply to your comments, however, I do want to say one thing in defense of our Sunni brothers.

In Egypt (a predominately Sunni country), you maybe surprised to know that there is a famous Masjid dedicated to Imam Hussien(a.s.). I believe it is in Cairo (but I may be mistaken). In fact, our Sunni brothers believe that the blessed head of our Imam is buried there. Tens of thousands our our Egyptian (mostly) Sunni brothers visit this mosque and weap over the tragedy of Karbala and curse the killers of the grandson of the Holy Prophet (a.s.)

In fact, most Sunni brothers do recognize that Yazid was an oppressor, and that what happened at Karbala was a tragedy. What the Sunnis say, however, is that the Shia go "too far" and are "too extreme" in morning for Imam Hussien (a.s.). While this is true in some cases (such as those who injure themselves), in general, this is a result of the suppression of the importance of the Imams by the Caliphates who came after the prophet because of their fear of being exposed as usurpers.

Maybe this issue is more important for one of our Sunni brothers to elaborate on (or maybe disagree with).

"The structure of faith is supported by four pillars endurance, conviction, justice and jihad."

Imam Ali (a.s.)
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Quote new_muslimah Replybullet Posted: 24 May 2005 at 1:45pm

salams

Well, thanks for the information. I maybe have been biased by what i saw . I have some pakistani sunni friends , who consider Shia -kafirs.

similar is the deal with the brothers from saudi.

Again I stress today, the enemies of islam would love for us to attack each other.

Allah is the Light of the Universe.
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Quote firewall Replybullet Posted: 24 May 2005 at 3:32pm
So set you (O Muhammad SAW) your face towards the religion of pure Islâmic Monotheism Hanifa (worship none but Allah Alone) Allah's Fitrah (i.e. Allah's Islamic Monotheism), with which He has created mankind. No change let there be in Khalq­illâh (i.e. the Religion of Allâh Islâmic Monotheism), that is the straight religion, but most of men know not[]. [Tafsir At­Tabarî, Vol 21, Page 41]

(Always) Turning in repentance to Him (only), and be afraid and dutiful to Him; and perform As­Salât and be not of Al­Mushrikűn -- of those who split up their religion, and became sects, each sect rejoicing in that which is with it.

[Quran, 30:30-32]



i'm sorry that i'm not arabic speaking, so correct me if i'm mistaken. i understand it as "don't you become one of the mushrikun -- that is people that make their religion sects, each sect rejoicing in that which is with it." when we become sects, we're mimicking the mushrikun& that's very bad. that's why the first ayat tells, we must refer back to Allah, worship none but Allah. at least 5 times a day, we pray "guide us to the straight path"

not just me, but us -- all muslims.

Islam is suppose to unite & bring peace to its ummah, not hate between us. true? 
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