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Islamic INTRAfaith Dialogue
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Islamic INTRAfaith Dialogue
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Ali Zaki
 
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Quote Ali Zaki Replybullet Posted: 30 June 2005 at 8:30am

So I asked a simple question, (Why did Ibrahim (a.s.) ask for Allah (s.w.a.) to make him an imam while he was already a prophet?), what is you're answer?

"The structure of faith is supported by four pillars endurance, conviction, justice and jihad."

Imam Ali (a.s.)
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Ayubi1187
 
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Quote Ayubi1187 Replybullet Posted: 30 June 2005 at 8:50am
Quote for me the verse where nabi ibrahim(as) is asking to be made an Imam:
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Ali Zaki
 
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Quote Ali Zaki Replybullet Posted: 30 June 2005 at 8:56am

O.K., the request in the verse quoted (2:124) is implied, not stated directly. So for accuracy, let me re-phrase my question,

Why does Allah (s.w.a.) say,"Surely I am going to make you an Imam for men" when he was already a prophet?

"The structure of faith is supported by four pillars endurance, conviction, justice and jihad."

Imam Ali (a.s.)
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Ayubi1187
 
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Quote Ayubi1187 Replybullet Posted: 30 June 2005 at 10:01am
ok.

Your asking irrelevant question "why does Allah say this"?lol We are discussing the meaning of imam referred in this ayah so the question should be what douse it men "surely i am going to make you an imam for men" douse it mean "shia imammah"? The best tafsir of the quran is the quran itself, i will refer you to the quran so that you understand that its not referring to shia imamah(made up).

read ayah 74 in sura al-Furqan find the word imam



read ayah 12 sura at-Tawbah



read ayah 24 sura As-sajdah




read ayah 41 sura Al-qasas



And there is more ayahs that give explanation to the meaning of imam. We have even two ayah where the book of musa(as) is refered as imam, but its mostly used in the quran as referring to leadership.
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aservant
 
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Quote aservant Replybullet Posted: 30 June 2005 at 10:03am
Originally posted by Ali Zaki

if prophets are higher then imams then why did Ibrahim (a.s.) ask for Allah (s.w.a.) to make him an imam while he was already a prophet?

dear Ali Zaki

are you fooling yourself or you are trying to make us fool.  i am a human being and alhamdulillah i am a muslim.  now if i ask Allah to make me a doctor then does it mean that doctor is superior to being muslim or being a human?

Sulaman (as) was a messenger of Allah and he was made a king as well.  does it mean that kingship is something superior to being a messenger?

and also, the word imama used for prophet Ibrahim (as) is not the same as you use it for your supernatural imams.  if you are in some delusion then dont delude other.

a well wisher

 



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Ali Zaki
 
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Quote Ali Zaki Replybullet Posted: 30 June 2005 at 12:46pm

Dear aservent,

Here is the problem with your analogy,

1.) "If i ask Allah to make me a doctor..." If you ask Allah (s.w.a.) to make you a doctor, then you have misundertood the purpose of Dua'a (supplication). Allah (s.w.a.) has already given (most of us) the ability within us to become a doctor. It just take time and effort and does not require a divine decree, and even a Kafir, Mushrik, etc. can become a doctor. What is the point of asking for something that you already have (or the ability to acquire)

2.) " Sulaman (as) was a messenger of Allah and he was made a king as well" Yes, and so was Dawood (a.s.), however, this is an earthly title which was given to them by Nas (the people) not by Allah (s.w.a.). Again, Allah (s.w.a.) does not bestow kingship on someone and there are both just and unjust kings. The idea that the position of kingship is divinely appointed is a European (Chrisitian) deception.

Kingship is just a title, and does not have a divine reality behind it. If a king is not followed (or obeyed) by the people, then he is no longer a King. By contrast, an Imam is such whether or not he is obeyed by his Umma.

3.) " the word imama used for prophet Ibrahim (as) is not the same as you use it for your supernatural imams"

If the word "Imam" had only one, specific meaning (such as Nabowat, etc.), then there would be no reason for a discussion. I acknowedge that the word "Imam" is used in different ways. My point (in this discussion) is only that Allah (s.w.a.) is that when Allah (s.w.a.) says to the prophet Ibrahim that he will make him an Imam, he is giving him a HIGHER position then the one he already has (which is prophethood.) because Allah (s.w.a.) does not just give someone a useless title (like people do today).

 

"The structure of faith is supported by four pillars endurance, conviction, justice and jihad."

Imam Ali (a.s.)
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Tasneem
 
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Quote Tasneem Replybullet Posted: 30 June 2005 at 8:43pm

Br Ali Zaki

I have no intention of hurting you and if I have hurt you or anyone else on this forum, please forgive me. As a Muslim who tries to read and understand the Qur'an I feel the responsibility (which Allah's has entrusted on everyone of us) not to turn a blind eye when one is thinking that he is doing the right thing, but is actually going against the commandments of Allah. And when you guide others on the forum and constantly allude to your favourite website I really fear because you are endorsing actions that contradict the teachings of the Qur'an. I have already referred to all those things (muta, mourning, etc) to which your brief and evasive answers have been in defence of your belief. Now we have moved to another crucial area. You have written:

Imam is a leader who guides by a Divine Command, which is closely associated with him. The imamah, in its esoteric sense, is al‑wilayah (guardianship, authority) over the people in their actions and activities; and its guidance entails conveying them to the final destination by the command of Allah. It is different from that guidance which only shows the way ‑ and which is usually done by the prophets and messengers of Allah as well as by other believers who guide the people towards Allah with sincere exhortation and good advice."

Are you trying to say that the Message that was brought to all mankind by Prophet Mohammed (SAW) was not divine? Was it not divine command? Was Jibrael a human being? What do you mean by "It is different from that guidance which only shows the way"? The guidance we have received from Allah and His Messenger is the complete guidance. And please tell me where is the name of Hazrat Ali in the Quran.? According to your website it has been mentioned 300 times! Are we blind or deluded? Is your Quran different from ours? On the contrary Allah has commanded us to obey the Prophet Mohammed(SAW) in the Quran. Obedience to the prophet Mohammed (SAW) is obedience to Allah. This is what we have been told in the Quran. There is a complete chapter on the Prophet Mohammed (SAW) in the Quran! Do you overlook all this and say that Ali is greater than Mohammed (SAW)? In his last sermon Mohammed (SAW) said:

O People, no prophet or apostle will come after me and no new faith will be born. Reason well, therefore, O People, and understand my words which I convey to you. I leave behind me two things, the Quran and my example, the Sunnah, and if you follow these you will never go astray.

All those who listen to me shall pass on my words to others, and those to others again; and may the last ones understand my words better that those who listen to me directly. Be my witness O Allah, that I have conveyed Your message to Your people."

Allah has made the Quran easy for us to understand, and we are to follow what has been made plain to us, not to go looking for the meaning of that which is allegorical. It seems to me that the main problem here is the efforts of Shiaism to understand the allegorical and bringing dissension in the Muslim ummah.

"And (remember) when his Lord tried Ibrahim with certain words, then he fulfilled them. He said: "Surely I am going to make you an Imam for men" (Ibrahim) said: "And of my offspring?" He said: "My covenant will not include the unjust" (2:124)

The above verse has been made plain to us. The meaning of Imam as plainly understood is leader a model, why complicate things by attaching some special meaning to it? Additionally, these words were for Hazrat Ibrahim, where does Hazrat Ali come into this? Anyway, I am not looking for answers from you for this if they are from outside of the Quran.

the status of an Imam is higher than a prophet who was not given Immate

Do Shias ever accept Allahs will? If Hazrat Ali was not given the caliphate it was Allahs will. How can one be a Muslim and promote Islam when one does not have the capacity of accepting Allahs will and when one distorts the message of the Quran?

May Allah guide you Br Zaki to the right path and through you to your other Shia brethren. And May Allah guide us all to the right path, Ameen!

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Ali Zaki
 
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Quote Ali Zaki Replybullet Posted: 01 July 2005 at 5:04am

Br. Tasneem,

I must admit, sometimes I do tire of repeating myself.

The Prophet Mohammad's (a.s.) status before Allah (s.w.a.) is HIGHER then any other human being who ever lived. Even Imam Ali (a.s.) testifies to this NUMEROUS times. The Prophet (a.s.) was BOTH a prophet AND an IMAM (however, obiedience to ALL prophets is mandatory).

So you are continuing to guess about why I am saying this. Why? It is a simple issue. Ibrahim was given prophethood, then Allah (s.w.a.) made him an Imam. This is not my interpretation, but clear based on verse I quoted. Again, if you reject the explanation of the scholar cited, then provide an alternative. Do you have one?

" If Hazrat Ali was not given the caliphate it was Allahs will. " This would be true if we were a flock of birds or sheep, however, Allah (s.w.a.) in Quran has told us many times the Allah (s.w.a.) shows us the way (i.e., gives us his Hidayah), it is our choice to be grateful (obedient) or ungrateful (disobeidient). If people disobey Allah (s.w.a.) and his messenger (s.w.a.), then they are only able to do this because Allah (s.w.a.) has given them the choice. This choice made by (the majority of) Umma of Muhammad (a.s.), i.e., to follow a leader other then him who Allah (s.w.a.) and his Messenger (a.s.) had ordered us to follow and obey is still "bearing it's fruits" today. This is why I keep posting.  

"The structure of faith is supported by four pillars endurance, conviction, justice and jihad."

Imam Ali (a.s.)
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