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Islam for non-Muslims
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Islam for non-Muslims
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Anatolian
 
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Quote Anatolian Replybullet Topic: This should be a seperate post
    Posted: 09 October 2007 at 11:07pm
I wanted this post to be viewed by all and not to be lost in different
sections and missed by some.

Some of you may believe that I come here to specifically target Muslims
as individuals, which I have not done or will ever do. I never associated an
individual's actions to his religion. I don't plan on doing so not here or
now or ever for that matter I want that cleared now from the start. What I
do here, which I have expressed before, is to point out what I view as
intolerate and hate driven teachings. Some I have quoted from the
Hadiths and others from the Qu'ran. Some such as the last few about Dar
El Harb are Islamic views concerning non-Muslim dominated countries.
All these are not made up in where most here might think, in my sick and
twisted mind. At times I find it hard to respond because most of you hear
have chosen to reject sources or understandings outside of your normal
interpretations.

I for one have condemned the actions taken by Crusaders who began as a
liberating force, driven by their clergy to push back the Islamic forces out
of the Holy Land (I refuse to truly call it Holy for God only knows how
much blood has seeped into the stoneworks of Jerusalem...). The legacy
they left behind was dispicable and insulting to those who truly raise the
Cross and march for good rather then those European renegades using it
as an excuse to feed their greed. I would also like to point out that the
Crusaders, other then inflicting ill towards Muslims and Jews, also
massacred thousands of Christians so in all due respect lets avoid the
word Christian and Crusader in the same sentence. Just as many Christian
Levantines feel hatred towards these men more then the Muslims. I feel
the same towards this New World Order run by secret societies of the
world and attacking others in the name of "freedom" with a guise of
Christian backgrounds...

On the other end I rarely read any posters here who point out Muslim
difficencies or anything that would hurt the Ummah's loyalty.

As stated, I was born and raised in a Muslim country and I have
experienced life with them with all the goodness associate with them and
all the bad. The bad of course stemming from religion or not. So for
those who converted to Islam and had never lived in a truly Muslim
society I urge you to experiance it...

After all this bickering and back and forth discussions, which I feel are
healthy, I always think about this statement once mentioned by a Catholic
priest. He said true religion is how you act and how you treat others no
matter what creed, color, or religion. If you live up to goodness who is
stopping you from eternal glory? I just thought that was a beautifull
statement and wish it to all who believe in such a thing is possible.

Salamat...
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Hayfa
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Quote Hayfa Replybullet Posted: 10 October 2007 at 3:41am

On the other end I rarely read any posters here who point out Muslim
difficencies or anything that would hurt the Ummah's loyalty.

Actually it is no that we don't find people or actions terrible, corrupt etc. But we differentiate that from Islam, from the Quran and Hadiths.

Also, we hear critcism all over the place especially in western media. most coverage is not fair or blatantly wrong. I have written to numerous medias about their coverage of a particular issue. I reember seeing an article in BBC about how in Morocco they are now letting women be "priests" in Islam. I wrote them and explained their are no priests in Islam.

We do point out deficiencies about people. But its actually to correct them. Especially the women

 

When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi
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islamispeace
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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 10 October 2007 at 7:06pm
Actually, all you have mentioned on this forum is the result of your "...sick and twisted mind".  You have provided nothing to support your claims, yet you go rambling on about how Islam is "intolerant and hate driven...".  Thus far, you have attempted to raise issues with Muhammad's marriages, his experience in receiving the first revelation and now something about "dar al harb".  More often than not, you have displayed an abhorrent ignorance about several factors.  For instance, you confused Khadija (ra), the prophet's wife, with Fatima (ra), his daughter.  You confused Aisha (ra) with Zainab.  All this displays a lack of study.  It also displays a blind acceptance of information from non-Islamic sources. 

I would like to take this opportunity to renew my challenge to you concerning "dar al harb".  You tried to sideswipe this challenge by saying that this teaching is present all around the Islamic world, and that it does not have to be present in the Quran or Hadiths.  Where could they come from, if not from the Quran or the Hadiths?  It should come as a surprise then that while before you were attempting to raise concerns about certain Islamic issues straight from the Quran or Hadiths (the Islamic sources), now you feel that these are not important with regard to "dar al-harb".  If this ideology is rooted in Islam, then surely it must be present in the Islamic sources, which are the Quran and Hadiths.  Present your evidence about "dar al-harb" or admit that you are wrong.  Try to step out of your little bubble of ignorance and deceit.
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Anatolian
 
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Quote Anatolian Replybullet Posted: 14 October 2007 at 4:04pm
Actually Islam's intolerant actions that I have quoted and not just I but
others as well such as Rezz have been pointed out from your own holy
books. Your responses to all those statements have been "bad
translations" or "leave it to Muslims to read there own scriptures". What
room is there for those who wish to debate such topics but get shunned
down immediatly by all Muslims who participate here? Now if you wish to
ignore these posts by people who point these out, I can't do anything
about it nor can I force you to read them, nor can I repost them because it
will be futile.

As for Dar el Harb and Dar el Salam I will post soon where I found them.
And of course you will refuse to accept my experiance in these teachings
comming from my own experiance living in a Muslim society.

As for Hayfa's post. I do agree about the West's portrayal of Islam and of
other religions and traditions as lacking sources and truth but if you are
to point that you should also point out the non stop rubbish printed in
Islamic circles about Christianity and Judaism and how the West is
declining yet all rush to her arms for true freedom and peace. Try for
once to keep Islam out of the world's center and see how it also commits
the same crimes as others do to her. Like this story that stands out in my
mind where in Pakistan, the Muslims there believe Hindus sacrifice
Muslim babies at the alter. It lacks evidence and human decency.
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Hayfa
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Quote Hayfa Replybullet Posted: 15 October 2007 at 6:53am

non stop rubbish printed in Islamic circles about Christianity and Judaism and how the West is declining yet all rush to her arms for true freedom and peace.

Where have you seen this? Not the basic websites I am on..

And 2nd, the main reason people come to the US is due to economic and also that yes they have "peace" casue gee, their countries are often at war, often done by proxy by the US, Russia etc. Why are there so many Iraqi refugees? do tell..

Yes they come here for jobs cause their countries often are not able to get a good economic foothold cause of the international politics that largely affects their countries. The vast majority of the people are not coming here to live a "western" lifestyle. what they want is their kids to grow up. We do have an excellent standard of living, and it is off of the exploited backs of workers and the environment everywhere. And the this consumption is affecting people all over the globe.

And they come here, their kids come here, and tha parents are often horrified cause their kids grow up like kids here, lots of nudity, drugs, drinking etc.

As far as other peoples' ideas of other religions, let me ask you, what is the writted source of what you wrote about Hindus? Where is it. Never heard that one and I lived in Pakistan. And keep in mind 50% of the people of Pakistan are illiterate. So they cannot even read. The mis-imformation by the western media is by 'educated' people.

I think you would be better using sources by countries with a higher source of literacy such as UAE, Malaysia or Indonesia. Yes there are a few fringe groups that promote discord. But that is not the majority of Moslems, nor Islam itself.

I highly recommed a bok I just read by Akbar Ahmed called Journey into Islam. He is a professor at American University and traveled overseas to meet and talk to Moslems there. He really is one of those people who can explain things to Moslems and nonMonslems alike.

And he told a story of how in the partition times of India and Pakistan, how Jinnah, Nehru and Ganghe all fought for peace and no violence. And how Jinnah actually shielding some Hindus himself from angry people.

 

 

When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi
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Quote Hayfa Replybullet Posted: 15 October 2007 at 6:56am

Also, let me ask you:

If a man raped and murdered a woman, what should be his punishment?

What is forgiveness? What is justice? What is protection of society?

Where does it say in Christianity that this person should not receive punishment? Do tell..

 

 

When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi
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islamispeace
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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 15 October 2007 at 3:17pm
" Actually Islam's intolerant actions that I have quoted and not just I but others as well such as Rezz have been pointed out from your own holy books."

And those people have always been proven wrong, including Rezz.

"Your responses to all those statements have been "bad
translations" or "leave it to Muslims to read there own scriptures"."

Oh, and I suppose you will educate us about our own religion?  Don't make me laugh!  Oops, too late!

"What room is there for those who wish to debate such topics but get shunned down immediatly by all Muslims who participate here? Now if you wish to ignore these posts by people who point these out, I can't do anything about it nor can I force you to read them, nor can I repost them because it will be futile."

Your posts, as well as the posts of other like-minded individuals have never been ignored.  On the contrary, they have attracted much attention from the Muslims on this forum.  The issues you have risen have been refuted and explained ad nauseum, not only here and now, but in the past as well. 

"As for Dar el Harb and Dar el Salam I will post soon where I found them."

You mean you don't have this information at your fingertips?  What were you planning on doing?  Wait for someone to object and then look for the appropriate references?  Go ahead, bring me one Quranic verse which talks about "dar al-harb". 

"And of course you will refuse to accept my experiance in these teachings comming from my own experiance living in a Muslim society."

Someone needs a hug!  There, there poor Anatolian.  It's ok.  Those bad Muslims are far way now.  They won't hurt you anymore.  

Your "have pity on me" excuses will not fly here.  You come crying here about some alleged "experiences" you had in Muslim countries and claim that it must be the result of Islam, without providing any evidence.  The question is that if your experience was so bad, why are you still alive and breathing?  Why didn't those "intolerant" Muslims kill you for being an infidel?  How did you escape from their clutches? 
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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