Active TopicsActive Topics  Display List of Forum MembersMemberlist  CalendarCalendar  Search The ForumSearch  HelpHelp
  RegisterRegister  LoginLogin  Old ForumOld Forum  Twitter  Facebook
Advertisement:
         

Islam for non-Muslims
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Islam for non-Muslims
Message Icon Topic: How would you justify this...? Post Reply Post New Topic
<< Prev Page  of 4
Author Message
Angela
 Christian
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 11 July 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2555
Quote Angela Replybullet Posted: 10 October 2007 at 9:22am

 

IP IP Logged
minuteman
 
Senior Member
Senior  Member


Joined: 25 March 2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1642
Quote minuteman Replybullet Posted: 11 October 2007 at 2:21am

 

 Anatolian:

1) Would you like to see a women stoned to death for adultery?
2) A thief's hand being chopped off?
3) An ex Muslim professing his new faith being intimidated and killed for
this?
4) Those rejecting Islam who are either crucified, decapitated, hands and
feet cut off?
5) Getting caught drinking and being lashed at with a wip?

Just to name a few...


 1. Why  not !!! Do you want free sex every where? Why the men and women should do such a bad deed?? They should be punished and there is no harm if they are killed. But if you are thinking that it will be cruel to do that then it is your mistake. If you think it will be difficult to implement then that is also wrong. Intention is required. When a few adulterers will be stoned to death then people will see a great reduction in that crime.

 2.  My reply is the same as above in number 1. It will have to be seen that no one's hands are cut just for stealing bread etc. Why should any one try to steal?? Punishment is there even now in every country but it is some lenient punishment. So stealing goes on at high scale. Once a severe punishment is prescribed with the appropriate laws of Zakat and easy justice then people will have no need to steal. But if after all facilities being provided, they try to steal then the hand may be cut off.

 3 & 4. There is no need of killing any one for change of faith. It will be wrong to do that. There is no compulsion in religion. Let every one believe in what they like.

 5. There should be a punishment for drinking and gambling. It is inhuman and bad for the society.

 That is my opinion only. I am not enforcing it. I am only supporting it. If anatolian wants adultry and thieves and drinkers / gamblers then it may be good for anatolian. I do not say that we should change the laws of the western countries. They are democratic countries, masters of their own affairs  having sense and responsibilty. They can have the drinking and gambling and prostitution and free sex (no marriage necessary) etc.

 But I feel that they are doing wrong. Now the problem is that if those countries want to abolish drinking by law, they cannot do it. A good example of that is the prohibition law in United States of early 20th century. It had to be withdrawn very soon because they failed to achieve any good result.

 There is drinking ( in hiding ) in the Muslim countries too. There is severe punishment for drinking, yet the people steal and get hold of liqour. A bridge had to be erected for the Saudis to go to Bahrain (Island) easily by road.

If any one is bad some one must suffer
IP IP Logged
Anatolian
 
Groupie
Groupie


Joined: 12 September 2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 67
Quote Anatolian Replybullet Posted: 14 October 2007 at 3:52pm
Wow I must say I truly didn't expect such replies especially by minuteman
and Rami.

If Allah created man he created him with free thoughts, a conscience, why
would he allow his creations to attack one another for sins? Allah is all
powerfull and the true judge of all so why can't he punish those who
commit sins in the afterlife? Why use other humans to work such deeds in
such ways? Can he not do them himself?

I'm guessing both of you are fine with the Mutaween, the Islamic religious
inforcers of Saudia Arabia who beat and persecute those who do not
follow proper Islamic rituals and traditions. What "freedom" is that? All I
read in this forum is how Islam is free and allows all it's faithfull to live as
they please. Yet it doesn't. What's it to you or any other man to judge
one's thoughts, feeling, and acts? Has Allah given man the power to other
men to punish those who inflict harm to themselves through alcohol and
tobacco and whatever they may wish to use?

Now minuteman has twisted this whole situations to the point where he
believes that I like thieves I support adultery. What kind of mentality is
this? I dispise these sins but I also believe in human mistake and how one
can rise above all this and stop commiting them. For whatever reason why
one steals or sleeps around is no excuse. But for one to steal and feed his
children I believe he doesnt merrit such execution.

These practices were inforced in Judaism such as stoning and lashes but
not in Christianity. Jesus Christ forgave those who commited these acts.
That is why he among other prophets before Him is different. He brought
peace and left all the Judging to God. If you are to claim such teaching in
the New Testament then by all means show me where.

Minuteman also claims that death sentences to those who change religion
is not a law yet it's done in every major islamic society even in the West!
After the death of Muhammed many returned to idol worshipping or
Christianity or Judeism, once that was happening the leaders of Islam
decideed to put an end to it... That is in the Hadiths. The prophjet himself
denounced this that explains why all ex muslims are faced with true
hardships in there decisions.

As for alcohol, it was a gift from God just like pork, shellfish or any other
foods or creations. Consume it appropriatly with complete self respect
and pleasure as long as no harm is done to you or others around you.
Thats my opinion...
IP IP Logged
rami
Male  Islam
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar
Senior Member

Joined: 01 March 2000
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2550
Quote rami Replybullet Posted: 14 October 2007 at 7:47pm
Bi ismillahi rahmani raheem


If Allah created man he created him with free thoughts, a conscience, why would he allow his creations to attack one another for sins? Allah is all powerfull and the true judge of all so why can't he punish those who commit sins in the afterlife? Why use other humans to work such deeds in such ways? Can he not do them himself?

Is this rhetoric or a serious theological question, you may as well be asking why Allah didnt materialise that shiny red car you wished for soon after you pleaded with him.

your statements painfully neglect the obvious, every other society on earth prescribes punishment for those who break the law, i wonder what type of standard you have set up for yourself to discern what the truth is.

Your comments are full of antagonism.

I'm guessing both of you are fine with the Mutaween, the Islamic religious inforcers of Saudia Arabia who beat and persecute those who do not follow proper Islamic rituals and traditions.

Then you would be wrong, since these people enforce something called fard al ain [personnel obligation] upon people and as the title states these religious obligations are personnel and not enforceable upon anyone so they are breaking a fundamental command in the Quran La Ikraha fi deen [there is no compulsion in religion].  Most people would come to the rational conclusion that humans are not following the dictates of the religion rather than form the extreme opinion that the religion itself is wrong based upon human actions.

What "freedom" is that? All I read in this forum is how Islam is free and allows all it's faithfull to live as they please.


You are making this up, there is a word for total freedom its called Anarchy.

Yet it doesn't. What's it to you or any other man to judge

one's thoughts, feeling, and acts? Has Allah given man the power to other men to punish those who inflict harm to themselves through alcohol and tobacco and whatever they may wish to use?

When your action affect the wider society than Yes he has. Dont be so st**id as to parade your vices to the public and expect no action to be taken against them that is just common sence.


These practices were inforced in Judaism such as stoning and lashes but not in Christianity. Jesus Christ forgave those who commited these acts. That is why he among other prophets before Him is different. He brought peace and left all the Judging to God. If you are to claim such teaching in the New Testament then by all means show me where.

Yes and this is why the church exists and why priests are the only ones who can forgive you your sins on behalf of God, what a myopic view view of things. Add to that the fact you dont actually know what jesus said or did, besides the obvious "I came not to change the law", yet it was changed on his behalf.

As for alcohol, it was a gift from God just like pork, shellfish or any other foods or creations. Consume it appropriatly with complete self respect and pleasure as long as no harm is done to you or others around you. Thats my opinion...

Christians are not supposed to drink alcohol period, according to there own religion or eat pork [if i remember correctly] but with the fall of christianity so to came the falshoods, "its all good" or so they say.


Edited by rami
Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.
IP IP Logged
islamispeace
 Islam
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 01 November 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1804
Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 16 October 2007 at 3:57pm
Anatolian wrote:

I completly understand with girls being married early off in that part of
the world because I'm originally from that part of the world where it was accepted. My grandmother was 16 when she was married. The times called for it sure. But to marry or engage a girl of 9 is a huge difference between that and early twenties late teens. How does a girl truly mature. Yes the marriage was consumed at 12 years old but still. No matter what society dictates at any time that is rediculous. If Allah gave Muhammed permission to wed her at that age why is that type of "priviledge" not given to the other prophets sent before him. How is that act commited by Muhammed, require Allah to basically send an ok to move forward with it? How does that better your visin of him as a man and a prophet? Would you allow your daughter if you had one to go to man much older then her and wed her to him? Even if he claims to be a messenger of God? Absolutly not?"

It seems the mother of your savior was just 12-14 years old when she wed Joseph, who was nearly 90 years old!  Hmmm.  Strange isn't it?  I guess Joseph, the man who would raise Jesus as his own son, was a pedophile, for having married a girl who was at least 75 years younger!

All the information is available at the online Catholic Encyclopedia.  Oh, but Anatolian is probably going to object to his brethren using the apocryphal texts for this information, even though the synoptic gospels offer no help on the matter.
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

IP IP Logged
rami
Male  Islam
Senior Member
Senior Member
Avatar
Senior Member

Joined: 01 March 2000
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2550
Quote rami Replybullet Posted: 17 October 2007 at 11:42am
Bi ismillahi rahmani raheem

Pedophilia is a modern term and invention that applies to our time, it is idiotic to even attempt to apply it to an age where the concept itself did not exist.

How is a person guilty of something they do not know is wrong, having said that on what authority are we declaring this thing wrong? did anyone in the society at the time object to the marriage or was it a norm and acceptable.

Modern society seeks to replace devine rule and commands, if in modern times the age limit needs to be raised becouse by our current standards of education the human mind has not developed enough by the age of 18 [as apposed to 100 years ago] then that is fine since this is what is required to reduce any psychological damage or abuse but any thinking person will easily understand here that the age of 18 is simply an arbitrary number upheld on the advice and expertise of  respective doctors in there field relevant to our time alone and based on modern studies of people who lived in our lifetimes not a magic number that is used as a yard stick for all time.


Edited by rami
Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.
IP IP Logged
minuteman
 
Senior Member
Senior  Member


Joined: 25 March 2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1642
Quote minuteman Replybullet Posted: 17 October 2007 at 11:49pm

 

 Anatolian, your post was full of wrong ideas. rami has already replied to you very well. I will only reply to the first part of your post shown below:

 If Allah created man he created him with free thoughts, a conscience, why
would he allow his creations to attack one another for sins? Allah is all
powerfull and the true judge of all so why can't he punish those who
commit sins in the afterlife? Why use other humans to work such deeds in
such ways? Can he not do them himself?

 Please know that there are two types of mistakes. One type is a personal belief, right or wrong. The other is a practical deed. The mistakes of bad or wrong belief will be looked after in the next world by Allah. The crimes or bad deeds of murder and rape etc. have to be looked after here in this world. That would be a test of the society too, whether it is a good society or corrupt society.

 I hope you understand these things. I believe you are a christian and you believe in the God, the one who created. Creator knows best about his creation, what is good for them and what is bad for them, i.e. the do's and dont's. You and I cannot formulate things for ourselves. WE can only understand and follow the advice given by the Creator God.

 So please do not make your own rules please.

 

If any one is bad some one must suffer
IP IP Logged
<< Prev Page  of 4
Post Reply Post New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

Disclaimer:
The opinions expressed herein contain positions and viewpoints that are not necessarily those of IslamiCity. This forum is offered to stimulate dialogue and discussion in our continuing mission of being an educational organization.
If there is any issue with any of the postings please email to icforum at islamicity.com or if you are a forum's member you can use the report button.

Note: The 99 names of Allah avatars are courtesy of www.arthafez.com

Advertisement:



Sponsored by:
Islamicity Membership Program:
IslamiCity Donation Program  http://www.islamicity.com/Donate
IslamiCity Arabic eLearning http://www.islamiCity.com/ArabAcademy
Complete Domain & Hosting Solutions www.icDomain.com
Home for Muslim Tunes www.icTunes.com
Islamic Video Collections www.islamiTV.com
IslamiCity Marriage Site www.icMarriage.com