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Islam for non-Muslims
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islamispeace
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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 02 October 2007 at 1:40pm
I think Anatolian is referring to Zainab (ra) , not Aisha (ra).  Yes, Zainab was married to the Prophet's adopted son, but their marriage was not successful and both were willing to opt for a divorce.  The point of the verse which allowed the marriage between the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and Zainab (ra) was to make it clear that one's adopted son is not a biological son.  In other words, adoption did not make people relatives.  Islam considers one's lineage to be of great importance, and one should never change one's family name.  Therefore, adoption is not encouraged, because that would make the adopted person's family name obsolete (it would be changed to the adopted father's name).  Of course, taking care of orphans is still a great deed in Islam, as the Prophet said that the one who cares for orphans will be with him in Paradise like the index and middle fingers.  
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Quote Angel Replybullet Posted: 02 October 2007 at 8:10pm

rami i think your post is way of topic  it doesn't comput with Anatolian's Post: In the Hadith Muhammed proclaims that he was given the right, by Allah, to
marry his adopted son's wife Aiysha. In what way does that help Islam and
why would Allah, or whoever was sending Muhammed messages, find that
truly important that an aya should proclaim such. I mean where is the sense
of it to better the faith to the masses by such a declaration by the prophet?

~ Our feet are earthbound, but our hearts and our minds have wings ~
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Quote Anatolian Replybullet Posted: 02 October 2007 at 11:43pm
A few points just to bring me up to see where everybody stands.

1) Hayfa you basically are for polygammy? I understand at that time many
widows were made so because of the warfare between the early muslims
and the remainder of the Arabian population. Personally that is not right
in my opinion but since thats not a basis for discussion will leave those
thoughts to myself. Now how does that apply to modern times? Should it
be applied to our times? And if so shouldnt women also have that right?

2) I completly understand with girls being married early off in that part of
the world because I'm originally from that part of the world where it was
accepted. My grandmother was 16 when she was married. The times
called for it sure. But to marry or engage a girl of 9 is a huge difference
between that and early twenties late teens. How does a girl truly mature.
Yes the marriage was consumed at 12 years old but still. No matter what
society dictates at any time that is rediculous. If Allah gave Muhammed
permission to wed her at that age why is that type of "priviledge" not
given to the other prophets sent before him. How is that act commited by
Muhammed, require Allah to basically send an ok to move forward with it?
How does that better your visin of him as a man and a prophet? Would
you allow your daughter if you had one to go to man much older then her
and wed her to him? Even if he claims to be a messenger of God?
Absolutly not!

3) Islamispeace, your right it was Zainab not Aiysha. Does it show in the
Qu'ran that the marriage wasn't successfull, fruitfull or a happy one? If so
please show me where. Thank you.

Also an interesting point made by Islamispeace is the adoption system, in
Islam. I understand that being a parentless orphan was a shamefull thing
in Arabia at the time and not just Arabia but many many places in this
world where the word "bastard" is used in the ugliest of derogatory
words. It's not only in Islamic or Arabic culture but the interesting point
here is the last name, geneology, of an individual. How is a child to be
loved and taken care for as any child with a mother and father? By state
institutions? How will he receive an individual, independent relaionship if
adoption is frowned upon in Islam? It's become a "class" system where
you cannot be as everyone else cannot be loved equally or raised equally
because your parentless. Throw orphans some bread and water but dont
raise them? How is that a great deed?
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Hayfa
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Quote Hayfa Replybullet Posted: 03 October 2007 at 5:30am

Hello,

Polygamy.. such anothe hot button topic.

There is quite little polygamy these days. but yes, actually it does still have relevance in this world. Yes it is not for most people. But it is for some. Here is why I believe that.. the world is changing.. rapidly. And in a way things are still relevent and such because women are always on the short end of the stick, economically etc. women are more vulnerable especially if they have children. The option should be provided..and for some it works out fine.

 to have it the other way.. woman marrying two men is not necessary... (except in India and China with all the female abortions and female infanticide but that is another issue )

Marriage at an early age. People agreed to marriages with chilren at a young age. Happened all over the world. It was a matter of biology. once you were able to reproduce etc. you got married.  It was a different world then. Life expectency was short (and still is in some places)  I know a boy recently in a village in the mountains who was married at 13! 13.  Hard to fathom. That is what you do.  And people would agree to marry their children at early ages. It was just how things were done.

The word "adoption" can be mixed up due to culture and terminology. We can adopt just not change a person's name and neglect our relatives. It is about not hiding a person's history from them. In the west they used to lie to children about the adoption. Never tell them. And when they were older they were in for the shock of their lives. It was like being lied to. When you try to "hide" someones lineage it is a deception. And that is not a healthy thing.

Now adoptions in the west are far more "open." And the way we think of "adoption" is rare becasue most people have relatives who help each other out in times of need.  But if I ever "adopted" a child who has no parents or relatives, and loved them that is a blessing. 

I look at it this way..  THe Prohet Mohammed (PBUh) adopted. his must make it fine to adopt. 2nd, the inheritance to one's own children and not to others is due to the fact that you wer repsonsible for producing these children. This does not mean you cannot give a "gift" to an adopted child before one's passing. And thw Quran saying it is okay for him to marry his adopted son's wife is to let people know that just cause you are related through "adoption" does not mean you cannt marry. The Quran lists who you can and cannot marry. This was just one more "point" so people will know for the future.  

 

 

When you do things from your soul, you feel a river moving in you, a joy. Rumi
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islamispeace
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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 03 October 2007 at 3:26pm
"Islamispeace, your right it was Zainab not Aiysha. Does it show in the
Qu'ran that the marriage wasn't successfull, fruitfull or a happy one? If so please show me where. Thank you."

The verse in question says that Zaid willingly dissolved the marriage with Zainab.  Furthermore, in the Hadiths, it is explained by Zaid himself that he was not happy with the marriage.  I will get you the exact references shortly.  It is almost Iftar time! 
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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islamispeace
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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 05 October 2007 at 5:30pm
The Holy Quran says (my comments are in red):

"Behold! Thou didst say to one who had received the grace of Allah and thy favour: "Retain thou (in wedlock) thy wife, and fear Allah." (This statement refers to Prophet Muhammad's advice to Zaid to try to work out the problems of the marriage with Zainab, after Zaid had complained to him) But thou didst hide in thy heart that which Allah was about to make manifest: thou didst fear the people, but it is more fitting that thou shouldst fear Allah. Then when Zaid had dissolved (his marriage) with her, with the necessary (formality), We joined her in marriage to thee (Here we get confirmation that Zaid did indeed willingly divorce Zainab and that he found no way to work out the problems they had): in order that (in future) there may be no difficulty to the Believers in (the matter of) marriage with the wives of their adopted sons, when the latter have dissolved with the necessary (formality) (their marriage) with them. And Allah's command must be fulfilled." (Sura Al-Ahzab:37)

In Sahih Bukhari:

"Volume 9, Book 93, Number 516:

Narrated Anas:


Zaid bin Haritha came to the Prophet complaining about his wife. The Prophet kept on saying (to him), "Be afraid of Allah and keep your wife." Aisha said, "If Allah's Apostle were to conceal anything (of the Quran he would have concealed this Verse." Zainab used to boast before the wives of the Prophet and used to say, "You were given in marriage by your families, while I was married (to the Prophet) by Allah from over seven Heavens." And Thabit recited, "The Verse:-- 'But (O Muhammad) you did hide in your heart that which Allah was about to make manifest, you did fear the people,' (33.37) was revealed in connection with Zainab and Zaid bin Haritha."

So, it is clear that Zaid and Zainab were not happy with the marriage, and that despite this, the Prophet (pbuh) was urging them to work out their problems.  Had he wanted, he could have said to Zaid "well, there are plenty other fish in the sea; divorce her and I will take her".  He did not do this.  Furthermore, after Zaid divorced her, the Prophet did not immediately go to her and ask her for marriage.  On the contrary, he waited for the 'Iddah period (which is 3 months, I believe)
and then sent Zaid to propose to her on his behalf. 

Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Quote Anatolian Replybullet Posted: 06 October 2007 at 12:48am
Just a quick observation I will just make this point. This law of Allah differs
quite strongly with previous mentions of marriage and divorce compared in
the OT and NT. Jewish and Christian teachings are much different then the
Islamic. Why is it that Allah, if He is the same God of the Judeo/Christian
believers, so different not just in this aspect but others as well? How is Islam
in this way a "continuence" of the previous two faiths? It's like God changed
his mind within 600 years after the death of Christ and decided to go a
different route...
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Quote minuteman Replybullet Posted: 06 October 2007 at 2:15am

 

 It is a wandering type of statement from Anatolian. No specific example is given for some good reason. Was it necessary to keep things in shadow?? If the laws of Islam are different to those of the OT and NT then those laws should be mentioned so that every one can see the points of difference and disagreement.

 Moses a.s. was given a law, a very good law for the Jews (and the Christians) . When came Muhammad s.a.w.s. then definitely some changes occured in the new law. But I am sure that there was nothing bad. If there was anything good in the law of Moses a.s. then the same will be found (retained) in the Islamic law.

 Anatolian may please indicate where there is a difference in the Mosaic law and the Islamic law. We can leave the church alone for the time being because they do not follow any law.

If any one is bad some one must suffer
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