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Interfaith Dialogue
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Interfaith Dialogue
Message Icon Topic: Xians, Muslims will bow to Rabbis Post Reply Post New Topic
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Bismarck
 
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Quote Bismarck Replybullet Topic: Xians, Muslims will bow to Rabbis
    Posted: 27 September 2007 at 12:18am
Sponsored by Israel, there is a burgeoning Noahide movement emerging in the world today.  The word Noahide refers to the covenant of Seven Noahide Commandments given by YHWH-God to Noah after the flood, and sealed by the sign of the rainbow (Gen 9).

The Plain Reading of Genesis 9:1-5 specifies
(1) "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth" (vv.1,7)
(2) Stewardship of all animal life (v.2)
(3) Authorization to eat meat, but not with blood (vv.3-4)
(4) Prohibition of murder, of either man or beast (vv.5-6)

However, the rainbow has seven colors, and Rabbinic interpretation of these and other passages has developed the Noahide Covenant into a set of seven laws.  All Goyim ("Gentiles") are Children of Noah, and are thus bound by YHWH-God's authority to obey the Commandments of the Noahide Covenant — as interpreted by the Rabbis.

Goyim ("Gentiles") who obey the Noahide Commandments, as interpreted by their Rabbis, are called "Righteous Gentiles" and "God-Fearing".

The principal introduction, intended for a Goyim ("Gentile") audience, is The Path of the Righteous Gentile by Chaim Clorfene and Yakov Rogalsky.  These authorities write:

By observing the Seven Noahide Commandments, a Gentile fulfills the purpose of his creation and receives a share of the World to Come, the blessed spiritual world of the righteous.

The hurdle that must be cleared in preparation for observing the Seven Noahide Commandments is the acceptance of the idea that mankind's way to the Father is through the rabbis.  Rebellion against the sanctity of rabbinic authority and tradition has been with us since those first days in the Wilderness of Sinai when the followers of Korah led a revolt against absolute rabbinic authority, as we learn in the Torah...

"And the earth opened her mouth and swallowed them and their houses and all the men that were for Korah and all their wealth.  And they went down, they and all who were for them, alive into the pit; and the earth closed over them and they disappeared from the midst of the congregation" (Num 16:32,33).

The lessons of the Torah are eternal as wee see by all those down through the ages who have emulated the actions of Korah and his band.

When God gave the Torah to the Jewish people on Mount Sinai, the people all accepted the written Torah willingly, but God had to lift the mountain over their heads and threaten to drop it on them to persuade them to accept the Oral Torah, that is, the rabbinic interpretation of the Hebrew Scriptures.  If the Jews had difficulty in accepting the Oral Torah as no less divine than the scriptures themselves, how much more difficult must it be for non-Jews.  But accept the rabbis they must, for the source of understanding the Seven Noahide Commandments is found in the Talmud and the later rabbinic writings, and nowhere else...

This [is] the true universal religion in which Israel, the Jewish people, is the priest and the Children of Noah, the righteous Gentiles, its faithful laymen.



Now, Jesus says in Matthew 23:2-3, "The scribes and the Pharisees have seated themselves in the chair of Moses; therefore all that they tell you, do and observe".

Therefore, all Goyim ("Gentiles") must acknowledge the absolute authority of the Rabbis, and be "faithful laymen" to Israel and World Jewry ("the Jewish people").  Resistance to absolute Rabbinic authority will mark you as a "Son of Korah" bound for "the pit" of sheol (hell), and will deny you any share in the World to Come.  As with Korah, your doom will be a witness to your sin.

The learned Jewish scholar, Walter Ziffer [1], echoes this further, saying that Jews are deeply concerned about the "proper behavior" of Gentiles.

I have quoted, directly and exactly, to the point of preserving capitalization, the words of Chaim Clorfene and Yakov Rogalsky, written under the guidance of Rabbi Mendel Feldman.  Rabbi Feldman says, in the preface, "the authors, both of whom I know to conscientious and God-fearing, have done a praise-worthy job".  Thus, their words speak with absolute Rabbinic authority.

Therefore, you must accept them, with all your heart, and all your soul, and all your strength, and all your might.  Amen.

Reference:
[1] http://www.krusch.com/bethisrael/
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BMZ
 
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Quote BMZ Replybullet Posted: 27 September 2007 at 5:30am

Not really bow but the Muslims respect Jewish Rabbis, Bismarck.

BMZ

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Bismarck
 
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Quote Bismarck Replybullet Posted: 03 October 2007 at 6:21pm
That is not enough. It is a pillar of Rabbinic Judaism that
Rabbis speak with Divine Authority. Furthermore, Rabbis cannot
sin
. In short, Rabbis claim their lives are guided by the Holy Spirit
of God — exactly like the Catholic Pope.

For example, the Rabbis hold that Jews cannot use any object made for
them, which was so constructed on a Sabbath. However, what if it
was not made specifically for a given Jew — can that Jew then use
that object?

The Rabbis' answer to that question is recorded in the Talmud:

A precedent in which Rabbi Gamaliel and the elders were
traveling in a ship, when a gentile made [on a Sabbath] a ramp on which
to descend, and Rabbi Gamaliel and the elders descended by it.

Sabbath, 122a


Thus, because Rabbis "cannot sin", and because their deeds are
"guided by God", the actions of R. Gamaliel "prove" that God allows Jews
to use objects, which were made on Sabbaths, if they were not specifically
gifts made for Jews alone.


To disobey the Rabbis is blasphemy:

Even if the Rabbis teach you that your right hand is your left, and
your left your right, you must obey them.

Midrash, Sifre Deuteronomy, 154


and:

A person must not say, "I will not keep the commandments of the
elders because they are not from the Torah." The almighty says to such a
person, "No my son! Rather all that they decree upon you, observe. As it
is written, 'According to the instruction which they teach' [Deut 17:11].
Even I must obey their decree, as it is written,
'You will decree, and He will fulfill it' [Job 22:28]."
Midrash, Pesikta Rabbati


Thus you see, Allah must obey the Rabbis.
How much more so you??

Here is a test of your loyalty to the Rabbis. For, the Rabbis
hold that:

A man must first put on his right shoe, then his left. Then he
laces up the left shoe, then he laces up the right.

Shulchan Aruch, Orach


Are you donning your shoes properly?

Before you is set Heaven and Hell, the World to Come, and the Pit
of Sheol
.

Your total obedience to the Rabbis determines your fate.

You will bow.
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Bismarck
 
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Quote Bismarck Replybullet Posted: 05 October 2007 at 3:41am
Originally posted by BMZ

Not really bow but the Muslims respect Jewish Rabbis,
Bismarck.


BMZ



the rabbis claim [Anan ben David] founded Karaism because he was
upset after being spurned by the Rabbis... The Rabbis tell this story
about all their enemies. According to the Talmud, Yeshua founded
Christianity because he was spurned by his teacher Rabbi Joshua ben
Perahjah; according to another Rabbinic legend, Mohammed founded
Islam because he was spurned by the Jews of Mecca.

Nehemia Gordon, The Hebrew Yeshua vs. the Greek Jesus,
pages 24-25
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mariyah
 
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Quote mariyah Replybullet Posted: 05 October 2007 at 6:47pm
Asalaamu alaikum  and Ramadan Mubarak:
I wonder if this is really a good subject for Ramadan. But then, everyone is entitled to their views.
One of my favorite stories is that of Abdullah Ibn Salaam (R.A.A), who was an honest Jewish Rabbi, who later reverted to Islam and became one of the companions of the Prophet (S.a.w) AND A GREAT TEACHER OF ISLAM. He was also known as Al_Hussein ibn Salaam, and as a Jewish rabbi he researched  the verses of the Torah and found those that pertained to the prophecy of the rise of the Arabian Prophet, and as a Rabbi he prayed to Allah Subanallah wa Taa'la that he would live to see the rise of Muhammad. Well he migrated to a Jewish settlement in Arabia called Yathrib, and the rest is history.
BTW, as  muslims we bow to no one but Allah subanallah wa taa'la, so what is the point?
Bismarck, as a muslimah I really question your motives, what is the point of continuing to attempt to create strife and chaos? But then you will have to account to God on the Last Day for yourself as we all will.
Ma Salaama


Edited by Maryah
"Every good deed is charity whether you come to your brother's assistance or just greet him with a smile.
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Bismarck
 
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Quote Bismarck Replybullet Posted: 06 October 2007 at 11:31pm
The words of the Messiah:

Luke 12:51-52
"Do you suppose that I came to grant peace on earth? I tell you, no, but
rather division; for from now on five members in one
household will be divided, three against two and two against three."


Does unholiness have any place with Holiness?

Does sin have any place with Righteousness?

On Doom's Day, the wicked will be cast away from the
Righteous:


Matthew 25:32-33
"All the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate
them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the
goats;and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left.


1 Corinthians 5
But actually, I wrote to you not to associate with any so-called
brother if he is an immoral person
, or covetous, or an idolater, or a
reviler, or a drunkard, or a swindler--not even to eat with such a one.
For what have I to do with judging outsiders? Do you not judge those who
are within the church? But those who are outside, God judges. 'REMOVE
THE WICKED MAN FROM AMONG YOURSELVES.' [Deut 13:5; 17:7,12; 21:
21; 22:21]


Immorality must be expelled and driven out from the midst
of the congregation, just as the Israelites (at first) expelled all the Ba'al
and Asherah worshippers from the highland hills of Canaan.

Name one (1) Scripture from any Abrahamic Faith which says
otherwise.


1 Corinthians 15:33
Do not be deceived: "Bad company corrupts good morals."

All I, for one, have to do is look around and I see the blatant,
flagrant proof of these words.
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Bismarck
 
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Quote Bismarck Replybullet Posted: 11 October 2007 at 11:34pm
My Son, be more careful in the observance of the words of the
Scribes than in the words of the Torah
(Old Testament)...

whosoever transgresses the words of the Scribes is liable for the death
penalty
...

Rabbi Akiba said to him ‘Give me some water to wash my hands.’ ‘It will
not suffice for drinking.’ the other complained, ‘Will it suffice for washing
your hands? What can I do? The former replied, when for neglecting the
words of the Rabbis one deserves death
? It is better that I myself
should die than that I transgress against the opinion of my colleagues.


Erubin 21b (attributed)
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Daniel Dworsky
 
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Quote Daniel Dworsky Replybullet Posted: 12 October 2007 at 4:06am
Rabbi Akivah had an "atomic" midlife crisis that led to the Bar Kochvah
revolt which in turn led to the expulsion of the jewish people from the
holy land.
He was the Meir Kahana of his time he was ignorant of his own faith until
the age of 40. When he found religion he went on a half cocked spiritual
rampage that ended in total catastrophe. My Guess is that it was caused
by
A problem he was having in the bedroom. You may quote me on this.

Bismarck,

If you ever wish to expand your horizon please widen your research to
include another Rabbi called Mamoneids or the Rambam. He would speak
to you from across time and perhaps offer comfort. He was an admirer of
the best qualities of Islam and a very wise man. He was one one the first
documented Pediatricians whose methods are still being rediscovered
today. Where you might really benefit from his work is a pamphlet called
"advice for the bewildered"
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