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Islam for non-Muslims
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Islam for non-Muslims
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minuteman
 
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bullet Posted: 21 September 2007 at 1:57pm

 

 The appearance of Jibreel a.s. to the prophet s.a.w.s. was in the form of a great man. Same angel appeared to Moses a.s. in the form of a fire in the bush. The same angel appeared to Isa (Jesus) a.s. in the form of a pigeon.

Hazrat Maryam (The mother Mary) was visited by the same angel in a dream. The case of the appearance to our prophet was different. It was almost real and physical. So fear was natural.

Muslims do not say that bible is corrupt from their own mind or wish. This matter is reported in the holy book Quran. The important points of corruption are also given in the Quran. We also see that the report of the Quran is correct because there is much difference in the teachings of Torah (OT) and Injeel (NT).

Whereas O.T. is strictly monotheistic, we see teachings of more than one god or god in three parts ( I may say Trinity) in NT. Eating of pigs is forbidden to the Jews and Jesus never ate it. His disciples also did not eat it. But the christians are eating it. Surely it was not told to Jesus that his men could eat the flesh of swine. Otherwise he would have said so and his friends would have started eating it in their lifetime.

 Therefore some one altered that principle. There was the circumcision. That has also been discarded. Surely it was not the teaching of Jesus a.s. Then think of the Sabath. That has also been thrown out. Next is the law of Moses a.s. His commandments that Jesus had come to observe in a good way. Jesus was observing and teaching the law of Moses to all people. That law has been abondoned. Some one has done it before the revelation of the Quran.

 So we know that the present bible (NT) is not the same as it should be. We are not worried where the original bible has gone. We have been told in the Quran that the christians have changed the real teachings after having received them. And we can see the proof too in the bible NT when compared to the bible O.T.

 Otherwise we have no grudge against the bible. We Muslims only have the word of God (Kalam Allah) with us, well preserved.

If any one is bad some one must suffer
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Anatolian
 
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bullet Posted: 01 October 2007 at 11:37pm
My question is why would Muhammed believe it was a jin who appeared to
him and needed a few more visions to clarify this? Don't first impressions
mean anything? The translation I was using is the one used by many
muslims who don't read arabic. As for if I have any evidence of injuries I
wouldnt know I wasnt there but it sure discribes a traumatic incident doesnt
it?
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Anatolian
 
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bullet Posted: 01 October 2007 at 11:58pm
Concerning the supposed tampering of the Bible, it is complete rubbish.

I will begin from the the Bible itself.

Revelation 22:18-19
Deuteronomy 4:2

If interested I can type both of those verses or you can look them up
yourself. Both enforce the Jews and Christians not to tamper with the
words of God.

What do the Christians and Jews have to gain by changing the Holy Bible?
So all those millions who perished for Christ put there lives on the line for
lies? Is this what God truly wanted?

There are many early manuscripts that were written close to the years
after Christ's death and resurection that show an exact word for word
copy to the present day Bible used.

Here are the following:
1) The Alexandrian script early 5th century
2) The Vatican copy, written 300 years before Islam
3) The Sinaitic written in 4th century
4) Codex Epraemi
5) Dead Sea Scrolls.

All share the exact wording and message. It is a false charge brought
upon Christians with no valid proof from Muslims.

As for the Qu'ran, it was gathered word for word by Khalif Uthman (3rd).
Many of those who recited it word for word either had died by the time of
his Khalifate or were killed in battle so one could not claim that the
Qu'ran had survived in complete form from Muhammed's mouth to now
can they? They are not even compiled in chronological order. The Meccan
and Medina verses are gathered down in disaray.
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Anatolian
 
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bullet Posted: 02 October 2007 at 12:07am
Also in Surah 29:46
"And dispute ye not with the people of the Book except with means better
(then mere disputation) unless it be with those who inflict wrong and injury.
but say "We believe in the Revelation which has come down to us and in
turn has came down to you: Our Allah and your Allah is one."
.

Is this describing the Revelations of the Bible now used by Christians and
Jews? So in fact Muhammed does not disclaim the truth of the Bible does he?
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rami
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bullet Posted: 02 October 2007 at 8:42am
Bi ismillahi rahmani raheem

As for the Qu'ran, it was gathered word for word by Khalif Uthman (3rd).
Many of those who recited it word for word either had died by the time of his Khalifate or were killed in battle.

Many sahaba died but not all, and we are talking about those who originaly heard most of the the revelation not simply recited it word for word which where  neumorous and there numbers increasing on a daily basis.

so one could not claim that the Qu'ran had survived in complete form from Muhammed's mouth to now can they?

yes they can you claims are simply incorrect and full of mistakes.

See, http://www.islamic-awareness.org/

They are not even compiled in chronological order. The Meccan
and Medina verses are gathered down in disaray.

Simply not true, we have the exact order as the prophet recited it himself preserved.

Is this describing the Revelations of the Bible now used by Christians and Jews? So in fact Muhammed does not disclaim the truth of the Bible does he?

This is reffering to the original revelation given to moses and Jesus [hs] not the bible or the torah, which the quran itself states have been corruptted.
Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.
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Angela
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bullet Posted: 02 October 2007 at 10:31am

Originally posted by Anatolian

Concerning the supposed tampering of the Bible, it is complete rubbish.

I will begin from the the Bible itself.

Revelation 22:18-19
Deuteronomy 4:2

If interested I can type both of those verses or you can look them up
yourself. Both enforce the Jews and Christians not to tamper with the
words of God. 

Ummm, you realize that prior to 325 that Deuteronomy and Revelations were their own books right?  They were not part of a collection?  That the ban is on adding specifically to those books...ie Revelations and Deuteronomy...

The "Bible" didn't come into being until 325AD... its a collection of books, with many, many others left out.  It was a Council of men who decided what was most accurate and true and in what order to put the books into...

The Book of Revelations is placed in one of two time periods... 68-69AD and more conservatively 95-96 AD... 

According to http://www.earlychristianwritings.com which is an excellent source for both canon and non canon texts, 2 Peter was written between 100 and 160 AD. 

Does that mean that all the books after Revelations should be thrown out???  Surely not.

I absolutely love it when people try to use Revelations 22: 18-19 wrongly.  So many Christians don't understand the origins of our own book.  They see it 1700 years ex-post facto as two books, the Old Testament and the New...its not...its 66 Books divided into two categories.

Please, if you are going to come to a site and ask a bunch of question...please get your facts in order.  (I noticed some aggregious errors in your other posts like Fatima in the place of Khadija and such).

If you are going to debate...have your facts checked in advance.

Now, as a Christian, I do not believe in the infallibility of any book.  If I did, I'd probably be Muslim.  As a history buff, I realize that the Holy Scriptures have been messed with for political gain since Rome converted to Christianity. 

Don't you think that the Council put Revelations exactly where its at to keep the "heretics" in check?  To cement their "absolute" authority over what books where and were not canon?

And if that's the case, everything passed Dueteronomy is out...

2 Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish ought from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you.

 

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peacemaker
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bullet Posted: 02 October 2007 at 10:52am
Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?
Qur'an 55:13
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peacemaker
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bullet Posted: 02 October 2007 at 10:55am

"There is no limit on questions one may ask or repeatedly ask to clarify a point about Islamic faith as long as the purpose is to seek knowledge about Islam. This is the place where only those who believe in Islamic faith and have proper knowledge on the subject should take part to answer, and those who can not positively contribute here should not take part."

http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=7684& ;PN=1

 

Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye deny?
Qur'an 55:13
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