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brotherMo
 
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Quote brotherMo Replybullet Topic: Khamr and Sakar is alcahol the same?
    Posted: 29 August 2007 at 6:38am

 

 

Assalam Alekom,

 

First off all, my question comes from a studying for the words of the Quran from the linguistic view of things to reach better understanding to the (Do) and the (NOT TO DO)

 

We know that GOD says that the Quran is in a perfect Arabic Tongue. We also learn that some words as they are meant in the Quran do not carry the same meaning in our existing Arabic nowadays.

Just as we were aware to tell the different between people who call them selves Muslims only and the true submitters.

I came to a study for a couple of words in the Quran that apparently have 2 different meanings simply because they are 2 different words.

These 2 words have a similar background in our common Arabic now, they are the word

(Khamr)   and the word (Sakar)

From my study to both words from the Quran I can find what they are possibly are and what are we suppose to do in regard of each one of them.

Let us mention first that these 2 words have almost one translation in most English interpretation, which are Intoxicants but let us study it from the Quran as it is.

 

1-     Khamr

God says in his Holy Book Quran.

 

[2:219]

 

    

 

[2:219] they ask you about AlKHAMR and gambling: say, "In them there is a gross sin and some benefits for the people. But their sinfulness far outweighs their benefit." They also ask you what to spend: say, "The pardon." GOD thus clarifies the revelations for you that you may reflect

 

 

Observation:

 

1-Clearly the (Khamr) is something that has a big value of SIN and a value of benefit for the people, and the SIN value is much more bigger than the benefit value.

 

2-The letter Waw (and) in Arabic gives a very clear meaning of equivalent

When always mentioned along with something else it clearly puts it on the same level, so the (Khamr) = gambling = both are Gross Sin more than their benefit.

 

 

 

 

 

[5:90]

 

 

[5:90]  O you who believe, (ALKHAMR), and gambling, and the altars of idols, and the games of chance are abominations work of the devil; you shall avoid them, that you may succeed.

 

Observation:

1-Clearly we are asked to avoid (Alkhamr) because it is an abomination from the work of the Devil as well as its companion in equivalent =gambling=the altars of idols=the game of chance.

 

 

[5:91]

 

 

 

[5:91] the SATAN wants to provoke animosity and hatred among you through (ALKHAMR) and gambling, and to Block you from remembering GOD Mentioning GOD GODs BOOK, and from observing the Contact Prayers (Salat). Will you then refrain?

 

Observation:

1- Devils Plan to make us enemies and hating each other = Devils plan on blocking us from (Zikr ALLAH) could mean, remembering GOD, mentioning GOD and also the Quran, and finally to block us from the Prayer.

 

2-After the justification given about the devils plan in regards to the (KHAMR) and gambling, we were asked if we were going to quit it period.

 

[12:36]

 

 

[12:36]  and Two young men entered in the prison with him. One of them said, "I saw my self (in my dream) that I was making squeezing (KHAMRAN)," and the other said, "I saw myself carrying bread on my head, from which the birds were eating. Inform us of the interpretation of these dreams. We see that you are righteous."

Observation:

1-     The first young man saw him self squeezing (Khamran) it seems that it is a part of the processing the (KHAMR), and clearly it passes from the state of solid to liquid as its being squeezed. 

 

 

 

[12:41]

 

 

[12:41]  "O my prison mates, one of you will serve his Lord (KHAMRAN) to drink, while the other will be crucified - the birds will eat from his head. This settles the matter about which you have inquired."

 

Observation:

1- Joseph interpreted the dream of the first young man in prison as -he will serve a beverage-drink- (KHAMR) to his lord

 

[47:15]

 

 

 

 

[47:15]  The allegory of Paradise that is promised for the righteous is this: it has rivers of unpolluted water, and rivers of fresh milk, and rivers of   (KHAMR) - delicious for the drinkers - and rivers of strained honey. They have all kinds of fruits therein, and forgiveness from their Lord. (Are they better) or those who abide forever in the hellfire, and drink hellish water that tears up their intestines?

 

Observation:

If we look at the beverages liquids mentioned in this verse, we witness,

Things that exist in the life we live in now but not as stated in heaven

 

1-     Rivers of unpolluted water  X  the water that exists in our current life time as it goes from different stages of pollution and saltiness.

2-      And Rivers of milk that its taste does not change  X  the milk we get in our current life time, as it changes taste after a period of time being exposed to air and bacteria.

3-     And Rivers of   (KHAMR) - delicious for the drinkers   X   the (KHAMR) that is the abomination and work of the Satan.

4-     And rivers of strained honey  X  interesting the word honey in Arabic (ASAL) does not exist in the Quran except once for one of the rivers in Heaven, but the honey in current life that might contain wax or any other additional substances. is mentioned as beverages with various colors produced by the Bees in their stomach.

 

..

 

 

 

2-SAKAR

God says in his Holy book Quran.

 

 

 

[4:43]

   

 

 

[4:43]  O you who believe, do not observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) while (SUKARA), so that you know what you are saying. Nor after sexual orgasm without bathing, unless you are on the road, traveling; if you are ill or traveling, or you had urinary or fecal-related excretion (such as gas), or touched the women , and you cannot find water, you shall observe Tayammum (dry ablution) by touching clean dry soil, then wiping your faces and hands therewith. GOD is Pardoner, Forgiver.

 

Observation:

A clear Order from GOD Almighty to not approach the contact prayer (Salat) until transforming from one condition to another, as follow:

 

 

1-under the effect of Sakar (Sukara)

*The condition is - to be sober (until you know what you are saying)so the person under the effect of SAKAR does not really know what he is saying.

 

 

2-Sexual Orgasm (JUNUB)

 **(Exception)-if we were on the road we are permitted to pray...

*The Condition is taking a bath.

 

 

3-If we were, sick or traveling, or had urinary or fecal-related excretion, or touched the Women

*The Condition is Ablution with water, if water is not found then dry ablution.

 

NOTE: we are only prohibited to pray during the first states of the conditions, but they are not prohibited them selvesI think it is very clear from observing the Verse.

Q: what is Sakar?? It is mentioned among the things that are normally natural on daily bases??

The thing that makes you not know what you are saying???

Let us look at this coming verse

 

[16:67]

[16:67] And from the fruits of date palms and grapes you produce (SAKARAN), and good provisions. This should be (sufficient) proof for people who understand.

 

Observation:

The SAKAR definition: is something that is produced from the dates and grapes.

 

-GOD SWT put the letter Waw between the word Sakar and good provisions, automatically they are equivalent to each otherSAKAR produced from the dates and Grapes=Good Provisions.

...

 

This is my first study from the Quran to the meaning of both words KHAMR and SAKAR

And when I was studying the meaning of both I understand that these are 2 different beverages1-Khamr is forbidden, 2- SAKAR is not forbidden.

 

 

 

 

My second observation came after reading the last verse that contains the word (KHAMR) in comparison to the Verses that surround the Verse that contains the definition of (SAKAR) from Sura 16 the Bee Al-nahl .

Lets take a look at Gods marvelous Book:

 

 

 

 

[47:15]

 

 

 

 

[47:15] The allegory of Paradise that is promised for the righteous is this: it has rivers of unpolluted water, and rivers of fresh milk, and rivers of   (KHAMR) - delicious for the drinkers - and rivers of strained honey. They have all kinds of fruits therein, and forgiveness from their Lord. (Are they better) or those who abide forever in the hellfire, and drink hellish water that tears up their intestines?

 

Observation from [47:15]

 

 Check out the order of liquid things we will be rewarded in Heaven in Sura 47 in comparison to the things we have in this life from Sura 16:

 

1-Rivers of unpolluted water

     

  Compared to [16:65]

 

[16:65] GOD sends down from the sky water to revive the land after it had died. This should be (sufficient) proof for people who hear.

 

Observation from [47:15]

 

2-     Rivers of milk that its taste does not change

 

Compared to [16:66]

[16:66]  And in the livestock there is a lesson for you: we provide you with a drink from their bellies. From the midst of digested food and blood, you get pure milk, delicious for the drinkers.

 

Observation from [47:15]

3-Rivers of   (KHAMR) - delicious for the drinkers

 

 

 

Compared to [16:67]

[16:67] And from the fruits of date palms and grapes you produce (SAKAR), as well as good provisions. This should be (sufficient) proof for people who understand.

 

Observation from [47:15]

3-     rivers of strained honey 

 

Compared to [16:68] [16:69]

     [16:68]  And your Lord inspired the bee: build homes in mountains and trees, and in (the hives) they build for you.

[16:69] Then eat from all the fruits, following the design of your Lord, precisely. From their bellies comes a drink of different colors, wherein there is healing for the people. This should be (sufficient) proof for people who reflect.

 

Note1: the water river in Heaven has superior characteristics than the water around us now.

 

  Note2: the Milk River in Heaven has ever lasting fresh milk quality not like the milk we have now.

 

Note3: In heaven we will be rewarded the (KHAMR) as a river and it will be delicious for the drinkers, but remember that we were asked not to drink it in our current life because the one that exists now is from the work of the Satan. But the (Sakar) is not as the same as (KHAMR)

As we are allowed to consume it at certain positions (after praying maybe) as it takes a while for the effect to fade out.

 

Note4:

GOD called the River of Honey in heaven (ASAL)

And the one that comes out from the stomach of the bees are drinks with various colors, and it has cure in it healing for the people, so it operates like an ultimate medicine by GODs willing.

 

 

So every thing that GOD gives us in this life time to enjoy as believers will go back to state of purity and extreme purification.

Q: So my question nowIs Hardcore ALCOHOL=lever diseases=cancers = Behaving crazy= (KHAMR)?

 

And is Wine=antioxidants=heart medicine=high prestige habits= (SAKAR)?

 

 

 

Your Brother "Muslim" Submitter to ALLAH inshaALLAH always,

Mohammad Elshiekh

Brother Mohammed
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Quote aka2x2 Replybullet Posted: 29 August 2007 at 8:00am

Brother Mo,

You obviously have done a lot of work for this topic. Unfortunately the Arabic text does not show up in your post. But, you did provide adequate translation for the verses you cited.

 

I am afraid the arguments you bring forward are not very new. Over the centuries many Muslims have argued that one or another form of intoxicants is exempt from the Islamic prohibition. According to their understanding they have engaged in those intoxicants, and always with disastrous results.

 

Your methodology has one classic flaw; it ignores the order in which the verses were revealed. Personally I think all intoxicants are haram and forbidden. I posted on this subject once before and will not repeat my arguments here. If your research leads you to the conclusion that drinking wine is ok, I suggest you reexamine your methodology very carefully. You are on slippery slopes Brother Mo.


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aka2x2
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Quote minuteman Replybullet Posted: 29 August 2007 at 11:15am

 

 I feel that I agree with aka2x2. That is my short reply. Even though the word HARAM is never used in the Quran about wine yet it was interpretd as such by the holy prophet s.a.w.s. himself. And drinking was stopped at once in Madinah. But let us see more opinions on this subject.

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Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 29 August 2007 at 12:19pm
I also agree with aka2x2.  There is no doubt that alcohol and indeed all intoxicants are forbidden.  The problem with brotherMo's argument is in the chronology of the verses.  The verse which urges the believers to avoid prayer when they are intoxicated was abrogated by the verses which condemn intoxicants.  The order in which these verses were revealed needs to be taken into consideration before we make speculative claims.  Alcohol is haraam.  The Prophet said so, and the Sahabah said so. 
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

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Quote Khadija1021 Replybullet Posted: 31 August 2007 at 6:45am

Assalamu Alaikum

Although I don't care for the word "abrogated" when discussing the glorious revelations of Allah The All-Knowing, All-Wise, I do agree with what others have said in their response to you, BrotherMo.  Allah revealed the Qur'an in stages so that people could change their behavior over time instead of being overwhelmed, which would surely have lead many of them to turn away from the straight path.  Allah in His All-Knowing Wisdom knows the dangers of trying to get people to instantly change bad habit and the potential dangers that may overcome then if they tried to quit all at once.  The biggest problem with alcohol addiction is that a person can literally die during the withdrawal period if they quit cold turkey (that is, if they quit all at once); hence, the best way to overcome addiction without having the advantage of modern day medicines and medical facilities is to reduce the amount of consumptions over time to the point when the body is not longer dependant upon it and abstaining does not threaten their life.  Allah in His Infinite Wisdom didnt need modern technology to know these things and was merciful in warning us of the consequences of such behavior.

As someone who worked in the field of addiction for 13 years I completely understand why Allah forbid us from partaking in such behaviors as consuming addictive substances and gambling.  Out of the thousands of people I worked with, not a single one said that they started out doing the behavior with the intention of becoming addicted.  Furthermore, they all thought that it would not happen to them.  That is, they truly had believed that they would not become addicted as others around them had. 

Addiction has nothing to do with willpower and once a person's brain has become addicted, it is not the same brain.  Studies clearly show that the rational part of the brain either closes down (as is the case with addiction to depressant drugs such as alcohol and opiates), or it becomes the slave of the pleasure center (as is the case with addictions to stimulate drugs such as cocaine and methamphetamines...gambling would also fall into this category).  In either case, the person no longer has control over their ability to use the rational part of their brain.  Their brain is more like a 2 year old who only knows and understands what he/she wants and will have a tantrum if they dont get it.  There is truly no talking rationally to these individuals.  In fact, you would have better luck with the 2 year old.   

It truly is as if their brain has been overcome by a demon with all of its resources being used solely for the purpose of the next high.  I will not even go into the things that people who are addicted have done because of their addiction, things they would never have done if they were not under the influence of some substance.  However, I will say that of the thousands of young adults that I have provided addiction education to (these were not addicts but rather young adults, mostly college students, who were at a crossroads in their life) when asked if they had ever driven while under the influence, of those who had which was most of them, not a single one of them said that it was okay to drink and drive.  This clearly shows that once a person puts such substances into their bodies, they are on longer in control of the rational part of their brains. 

The addicts state of existence has been labeled by many experts as a disease which affects the soul and that the only way to recover from this state of existence is to experience a spiritual awakening.  In other words, the only way to get away from the demon in their head (the devil) is to find their way back to God (Allah).  Hence, I would definitely say that Allah truly knows best and that if we take the time to look at reality, we will see the merciful signs that Allah has blessed us with.  Allahu Akbar!  Allah Is The All-Wise and He truly cares for all of His creation.

What I suggest to you BrotherMo is for you too examine the motivation behind your research regarding khamr and sakar.  What lead you to this reseach?  Did you simply accidently stumble upon it? Or did you do it as a means to hopefully find a way to justify consuming date wine or grape wine?  If this played a part in your research, then you need to ask yourself why this is so important to you.  Remember the words of Allah when He said:

But their sinfulness far outweighs their benefits.

And never forget that Allah is All-Wise as opposed to Iblis who is ever watching and waiting to find a way to insert a wedge between us and Allah because Iblis, although he doesnt know all things, knows that a small wedge is all he needs to get a foothold on our lives. 

I dont know about for you, but for me, there is only one thing that causes me more fear than finding myself in the companionship of Satan, and that is, once there, not being able to find my way back to Allah.  This is a good enough reason for me to refrain from such behaviors. 

Inshallah BrotherMo you will be guided to make the right decision about such behavior.  I will keep you in my prayers.  Allah knows best.

Allah Hafiz

Sister Khadija

Say: 'My prayer and my rites, my living and my dying, are for Allah alone, the Lord of all the worlds. (Qur'an, 6:162)
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Quote minuteman Replybullet Posted: 31 August 2007 at 10:29am

 

 There is no abrogation. Every verse stands as used to do. Every verse is a true descriptive. Quran said, "There are some advantages in Khamar and disadvantages. But disadvantages are more than advantages. That is perfectly true. Nothing is wrong with it. Also, it is only a part of the verse. The verse is longer. Some people feel that a part of the verse is abrogated now.

The other verse is also true that nobody should go near prayer when he is drunk and he does not understand what is being said.

The third verse clearly tells us that drinking and gambling is the dirty work of the dare devil (Shaitan). So keep away from it. That is the final order to refrain from drinking and gambling.

Every one of the above verses are true today and they are needed. I need to write  bit about Iblis and Shaitan. There are two types of forces inciting us to evil. One force tries to present the sinful things as something good, as something useful, not harmful. That is the way of Iblis who invites to bad deeds secretly and presenting them as something beautiful.

 The other force (I call it dare devil) is the one which does not keep any secret face. That incites to open rebellion and open misbehaviour. That one does not cover or wrap up the bad deeds in sweet covers. It incites to open evil. That is Shaitan. That is the open (manifest) enemy of mankind. That is not a secret enemy.

 We are told to seek refuge with Allah from the doings of the dare devil (Shaitan). We are told to shun the manifest evil shameful deeds. If we do that then Allah will protect us from the doings of the Iblis too, Insha Allah. But if we indulge in open shameful bad deeds such as fornication or killing innocent people or robbing then we will have nothing to save us from smaller type of sins.



Edited by minuteman
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Quote Khadija1021 Replybullet Posted: 31 August 2007 at 11:12am

Assalamu Alaikum

Br. minuteman I don't want to derail this thread by discussing the nature of Satan here since the topic is the haram nature of intoxicants.  If you want to discuss the nature of Satan, you can start a new thread.

Allah Hafiz

Sister Khadija

Say: 'My prayer and my rites, my living and my dying, are for Allah alone, the Lord of all the worlds. (Qur'an, 6:162)
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Quote brotherMo Replybullet Posted: 01 September 2007 at 8:53am
Assalm Alekom to All,
Note: I Dont drink ALCAHOL"KHAMAR"
But I might drink WINE "SAKAR" with my wife in the right time "which is properly after SALAT ALISHAA because the effect is going to ware off until the dawn prayer insha'ALLAH)
Please don't attack me for my intention; Im trying to Follow GODs word the correct way. I am a strong believer. Before you replying to my post I want to know your understanding of the 2 words mentioned above ,Khamr and Sakarbut take a look at my reasoning from the Holy BOOK.

Again, my brothers and sisters.
I get my knowledge from the Quran Alone because ALLAH said he made it easy for people to understand.
If you go to any man made book regardless of whom the man is to get understanding to GOD words you have done wrong, you have passed GOD's word, and this direct invitation from the devil to follow his interpretations and and translation.


I ask all to witness the 2 words mentioned in Quran by GOD ALMIGHTY,

1-KHAMR          ; 2- SAKAR

I don't know if you understand the meaning of the words in Arabic, but let me put it this way...If you drink Khamr you are "Makhmour" wich means you are under the effect of KHAMR(ALCAHOL)...which we all agree that it is forbidden and it kills you slowly and fast depending on your consumssion even if it had some benefit and pleasure,
But if you drink Sakar you are "SAKRAN"
Which we are prohibited to pray under the effect of SAKAR. But not from SAKAR it self.
Okay dear brothers and Sisters...now this is my questions to the ones who are Observing the word of GOD Directly...regardless of what is being put under Human Category as to it is Called "Intoxicants".
If you believe that GOD says the Word KHAMR and the word SAKAR as 2 different words then you are seeing the truth. If you still want to put the 2 words in one ORDER from GOD then you are on the wrong path. then this is a problem.

It might be clear for many people that "drinking" is all the same, but if you make a research in the verse of the Khamr you will find that it is different from SAKAR.

If you ask an Alcoholic prson about Alcoholic beverages you will find that ALCAHOL is not the same as Wine they might tell you that Wine is some type of alcohol, but it is not the same thing.
It is clear on the scientific side Wine is not even compared to Alcahol when it comes to its health Benefits.
Alcahol might have some benefit, but Wine is really massive in its benefit and there is no recall of any health problems of the wine.

Wine is a heart disease medicine, it helps the arteries to open up when they are blocked, and it has Antioxidants and several useful chemicals for the health of the skin and the body and the teeth and more and more,
GOOGLE search: ALCAHOL vs. WINE
Or, WINE and ALCAHOL.


Now do you still want to put the words in the same category?
If you want to put it in the same Category of Beverages then maybe you didnt deny what GOD says.
But if you want to put it in the Category of Forbidden and not Forbidden, you have to be careful and watch your self.
in the end
ASSALM ALEKOM WA RAHMATU ALLAH.
Brother Mohammed
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