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|Topic: The Layman Has No Madhab.|
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Joined: 25 March 2007
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|Posted: 27 August 2007 at 11:21pm|
The first and second post by Abu Mujahid had many erroneous ideas as pointe dout by Rami. The posts are only discouraging any one to follow a scholar or Imam. If the mazhab makes a sect then what about ahle Hadith who talk too much against the mazahib?? Are they not a sect??
Al Wardah has rightly said that we should follow Allah and His messenger. But the problem arises in the approach. Is there any intermediary (teacher) or not?? I am sure that there is no harm if some one relies on an Imam and follows in his footsteps, it makes things easy for him.
That matter concerns the Muqallid. Why those who do not have any Imam should object to that?? They can mind their own business. If asked, "Who is your Imam?" they reply, "Our Imam is the prophet himself". That is a clever way of saying thing.
Alwardah may please add something to the formula of good guided life. Try to understand about the Sunnah that it first constitutes the actual practice of the Holy prophet and not his words or books of Hadith. The words (sayings found in the books of Hadith) come after the practice of the Holy prophet s.a.w.s. Thanks.
If any one is bad some one must suffer
Joined: 01 March 2000
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|Posted: 28 August 2007 at 6:44am|
Bi ismillahi rahmani raheem
What Brother Abu Mujahid posted is one view and what you posted is another. In my opinion both views although different are correct.
Can you outline how this is possible at all?
You cant believe la illaha illah llah and la illaha illah shiva at the same time one is correct while the other isnt, the conclusions and arguments made by combining them is false so i dont think it is possible that both arguments are equaly correct.
and I meant the same rule will apply to it if a sunni asked a question………refering to your post, that is the only point
I understood that, and i pointed out that this is wrong becouse you have the made up context and you have the original and intended context one is conjecture the other original is fact and not subjective.
There has to be a proper context, you cant say both are equally correct.
I was not attacking your comments or your post. If fact I said: “Masha Allah another opinion………” maybe you don’t know the meaning of Masha Allah.
If you say something wrong, like what you said about sects in islam and i correct it with the right understanding according to the ijma of sunni scholars how am i attcking you sister?
My reply was not an attack, you perceived it as such.
Brother I have said that the only logical step will be to follow a Madhhab or study them all. Why the do the quran and sunnah speak to you?
sorry that was funny the way you put it.
look at what i quoted beffore that comment "
As Muslims all we need to do is follow the teachings as per the Glorious Qur'an and Sunnah."
If you read the link i provided which is a basic explanation of the language you are using by a qualified shaykh then you will understand the intended meaning of those words.
but unfortunately today the situation is different. The Sunnis are divided into sects and the same with Shia they have their sects too. You don’t hear people say that I am a Sunni Muslim anymore. They don't even say they are Muslims. No today people say I am Hanafi, Shafie or Salafie. How sad? Today people ask me to which Sunni sect do I belong.
no it isnt you are dead wrong on this. the proof is the original article look at the names of the shaykhs, al shafii, al hanafi, they used to clearly define which madhhab they followed, how many people do you know today will legally put there madhhab in there last name as is the tradition of all past scholars. You only perceive a devision based on madhhabs and even if it was real Islam is based on ilm not gossip or feelings we dont change the ENTIRE definition of a word based on what YOU perceive as a person. It is rather insulting to here someone label people a sect when clearly they are not.
If you even understood the word properly you would never say Sunni's are a sect and this is according to the defanition of the word, sorry for the sturn words but there is no your opinion and my opinion on this point just wrong understanding.
Lastely are salafi's a sect the same way shia are a sect....no so why are they even being mentioned in the same grouping.
know brother Rami you read my response completely out of text. Before
you use statements like “false logic” and “double-edge swords” I advise
you to lighten up a bit and you should take a deep breathe.
Youre right on that sister.
I don’t need to go to the sites you mentioned. There are thousands of sites criticising the Sunni scholars and how they are deviated just as there are thousands of sites criticising the Wahhabi or Salafi scholars and calling them extremist.
well if you had bothered to even go you will see salafis are not mentioned and the topics have mostly nothing to do with them, what i was trying to get you to see was these same quotes or ones similar to them being used in the correct context by real scholars. If you dont want to even see that then how can you judge properly on anything.
At least click on this and stare at the screen for 10 seconds to see it isnt what you think!
Btw just for your information brother Rami, I hold all scholars in high esteem.
It wasnt a question of respect since you havnt disrespected any scholars in the past like others have.
May Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala forgive us for our shortcomings and bless us with useful knowledge. Ameen!
Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.
Joined: 25 March 2005
Location: South Africa
Online Status: Offline
|Posted: 29 August 2007 at 12:40am|
As Salamu Alaikum wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuhu Brother Rami
To imply that I was saying Allah and shiva are one just because I say that we don’t need to follow any Madhhab and at the same time we need to refer to scholars ……. Audho Billahe minash Shaitanir-Rajim!
What surprised me most is that you say both are not equally correct yet in almost all issues of fiqh we have different opinions and we are told all are correct. (here I am referring to the 4 Madhhabs). You just added to my confusion. Actually I am not confused as I have adapted my own way of seeking knowledge. Alhamdulillah! I know I don’t have to refer to scholars on each and every issue and I also know the importance of referring to scholars.
Let me give you an example: If a person died, he left ¼ of his estate to a charitable organisation, and he is survived by a wife, 2 sons and 2 daughters. We don’t need to refer to any scholar on this issue as the full division of inheritance is found in Surah An-Nisa’ (4). However if there is a problem, like any step-daughters (his wife’s daughters thru another marriage) step-brothers or step-mother etc then yes we need to refer to the Sunnah and by extension to the scholars and maybe we will need to get a Fatawa before dividing the estate.
Let’s say someone, a sister, is studying the Hadith and reads this Hadith:
Narrated by Humaid bin 'Abdur-Rahman bin 'Auf (Radhi Allahu Anhu): That in the year he performed Hajj, he heard Mu'awiya bin Abi Sufyan, who was on the pulpit and was taking a tuft of hair from one of his guards, saying, "Where are your religious learned men? I heard Allah's Apostle (Sallallahu 'Alayhi wa Sallam) forbidding this (false hair) and saying, 'The children of
Narrated Abu Hurairah (Radhi Allahu Anhu): The Prophet said, "Allah has cursed the lady who artificially lengthens (her or someone else's) hair and the one who gets her hair lengthened and the One who tattoos (herself or someone else) and the one who gets herself tattooed" (Al-Bukhari)
This sister uses false hair so does she need to see what the scholars of fiqh are saying about this or stop doing it immediately to prevent Allah’s curse upon her. I would stop immediately without referring to any scholar as we are already told that the most authentic book on Ahadith is Sahih Bukhari.
Just two simple examples to show that we can make decisions based on the Glorious Qur'an and Sunnah without referring to scholars for a ruling.
Regarding the word Sect, this word is understood differently today and that is what I tried to explain. You know in some countries if a Shafie married a Hanafi the Imams call this marriage Zina - not acceptable from an Islamic prospective. During my travels I have come across many brothers and sisters who faced this type of problem. Their parents will not let them marry anyone who is not from their Madhhab. This, brother Rami, is the real world - not what you and I would like it to be. Everything looks great in print but in reality life is very different. To be able to communicate with the masses we need to understand these terms according to their understanding. Maybe I quoted that Hadith incorrectly, so what are the 73 sects that the Prophet (Sallallahu 'Alayhi wa Sallam) refers to. Maybe the Arabic word is translated incorrectly as sect. Allah knows best.
Well brother Rami, I don’t have anything more to add.
May Allah Subhanahu wa Ta'ala protect us from our whims and desires and keep our feet firm on His Siratul-Mustaqeem. Ameen!
Wa Alaikum Salam wa Rahmatullahi wa Barakatuhu
“Verily your Lord is quick in punishment; yet He is indeed Oft-Forgiving Most Merciful (Surah Al-An’am 6:165)
"Indeed, we belong to Allah and to Him is our return" (Surah Baqarah 2: 155)
Joined: 12 October 2005
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
|Posted: 31 August 2007 at 10:59pm|
Originally posted by Abu Mujahid
I struggled whether this will go under the topic of picking up Madhab or not. I concluded it is better to have a new topic. The writer debated the background of the topic in very informative way. You may not agree with him everything he wrote but he said it all in very convincing way.
See how some madhab fanatics went extreme to defend their madhab without prove from Quran and sunnah let alone four madhabs founders. The whole city was burned to ashes, marriage was banned or endangered and destructive words were used to make madhab whole deen.
May Allah reward the writer khair. Enjoy it
The Opinion of the Majority: The Layman Has No Madhab:
Ibn al-Jawzi on the Ash'arites:¡¥The heretics claim; i) there is no god in the Heavens, ii) neither is there Qur¡¦an in the Mushaf, and iii) nor is there a Prophet in the grave;¡¥your three shameful facets¡¦¡¦
These two pieces are nothing more than the usual "wahabi" drivel which over emphasizes the use of comments from Ibn Taymiyyan and his (not a big surprise) student. The over infatuation and over preoccupation of these two characters is central to the wahbabi thesis. So now, according to this unknown author, Muslims who are "laymen", should follow something other than the only established methods for jurisprudence, which leaves, not surprisingly, the “wahabi” ideals as the "other thing". It is like a “bait and switch” fraud put forth by bad businesses. The wahabis advertise to the unsuspecting that they do not need to follow a madhhab, which, alludes to the weary that we are able to follow nothing (nafs), but when the layman figures out that he cannot reasonably traverse the wilderness of primary tetxts through “ijtihad by naafs” (the advertised product given as bait), the "nothing other than the established madhhabs" become switched with the pseudo methodology of the “wahabis”. Even their clerics need followers. This piece wreaks of the usual “bait and switch” routine, and what makes it even worse is that the entire thesis of the “unknown author” (in terms of scholarship or any authority) is all on the grounds of what Ibn Taymiyyah and his student have to say (as if there is any big surprise). The author also attempts to use a “truth as a means to teach a falsehood”, which refers to the use of quotes from certain ulema and present them out of context from their actual meanings and then allow these quotes to allude to his fallacious conclusion.
The huge gaping fallacy in the argument is a non sequitur, large and dubious. The author tries to assert that a layman does not have to follow a madhhab, but uses evidence to show that we do not have to follow any “particular” madhhab. Not following a madhhab is not the same as not following any particular madhhab. In other words, the quotes from the great ulema do not tell us to follow a particular madhhab, but this does not conclude that we not follow any madhhab. Although no Sunni scholar will tell you that you can never use a ruling from another madhhab that is not from the madhhab you follow, this fact remains silent in this juvenile piece as the author “alludes” to an untrue idea about “following a madhhab”.
Edited by Andalus
A feeling of discouragement when you slip up is a sure sign that you put your faith in deeds. -Ibn 'Ata'llah
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