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Abdul-Azeem'876
 
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Quote Abdul-Azeem'876 Replybullet Topic: The Salafi Methodology?
    Posted: 18 August 2007 at 4:24pm
I would like to see peoples opinions on the salafi methodology. Whats Good about it? Whats bad about it? etc. Because I hear and see alot of indviduals saying negative things about the salafis or the "wahhabis" and have alot of opposition towards them when to my understanding the Salafi methodology places all of its jurisprudence on the Qur'an and Sunnah according to the interpretation of the Salaf (i.e. first three generations of Muslims) and rejects all Bid'a and Shirk. With that being said what is your take on this matter?

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Quote rami Replybullet Posted: 18 August 2007 at 10:07pm
Bi ismillahi rahmani raheem

assalamu alaikum

This whole post is self contradictory considering what they follow and dont follow.

when to my understanding the Salafi methodology places all of its jurisprudence

Salafi's have never developed there own principles of jurispridance or rather Usual al Fiqh, so wording it this way makes me think you are confusing there approach with that of the madhhabs.

 on the Qur'an and Sunnah according to the interpretation of the Salaf (i.e. first three generations of Muslims) and rejects all Bid'a and Shirk.

This is wishfull thinking, can you establish a link between there interpretation and that of the salaf? How can you when they reject Taqlid dont have any Ijazah going back to the time of the salaf and are anti madhhab which is the only link that exists between us and the salaf.

Just becouse they claim to be doing something does not mean they actualy are. What Bidah and shirk are they rejecting does that mean every one else is following Bidah and Shirk and the four orthodox madhhabs of islam which absolutely reject salafi's have been wrong for 1400 years?

This should have been posted in the Intrafaith section, make some effort brother and read the guidlines.



Edited by rami
Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.
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Quote Abu Mujahid Replybullet Posted: 19 August 2007 at 12:05am

Rami,

 

I was reading closely your premises for sometime only to find out you are either confused sufi or student beginner who doesnít want to learn Islam except from certain sufi people. Methodology, Madhab, Ijaza and other words has a meaning for four madhabs. No one is rejecting it but what you are missing is no madhab can exist without correct narration from prophet pbuh. That narration combining with whole range of Islamic textual collection are where madhahib can differ due to its chain euthenics, understanding, interpretation and so on.

Opinions of Imam Shafi, Abu Hanifa, Ibnu Hanbal or Malik said are not per se deen. Rather which verse or hadith they based on their opinion is what is counted if itís correct. They said our opinion don't count if it contradict correct hadith. Every student knows that none of four imams collect all correct hadiths. Despite they based their madhabs on many hadiths (authentic and non authentic), they missed also many ahadiths due to ruwatul hadith disperse in many countries. That is where Imam Bukhari/Muslim etc (Which has no Madhab to my reading) comes into picture to fill the gab.

If we force dhulabul Ilmi (Student of knowledge) who has means to learn the  Usul tafsir, usul alhadith, usul fiqh,  usul luqah the same understanding of certain things that four madhabs say so then we make four imams at the ranks of prophet pbuh. That is the baytul qasidah yaa sheekhana. We say, mujtahid, mujadid of this ummah can use same methodology and verify the wrongs of four madhahib without down grading their status.

 

Why is so difficult to understand this simple truth?  Why do you want to claim something that doesnít exist? Why you hate your brothers in Islam who strive hard to hold the same foundation that four Madahibs stand for without blind taqlid.

 

Bro, Its time you do revision of your sufi collection. Or Open your eyes on all correct sunni Islamic collections that form the bases of ahlul sunnah waljamaha.

 

Abu Mujahid

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Quote rami Replybullet Posted: 19 August 2007 at 1:37am
Bi ismillahi rahmani raheem

I was reading closely your premises for sometime only to find out you are either confused sufi or student beginner who doesnít want to learn Islam except from certain sufi people. Methodology, Madhab,

You mean you imagined something about me then chose to accept it as fact all the while claiming you are not a student not learning and thus know all there is to know.

So then are you a shaykh if your not a student becouse unless you are in the process of learning like my self and every other muslim who isnt a scholar your belittling people seeking knowledge is absolutely not of this Deen.

You should also know how you judge others allah will judge you.

No one is rejecting

Your first mistake or lie. Salafi's reject the madhhabs, Ijazah and Taqlid maybe not in your little corner of the world but i assure you in every other place on earth i have seen this with my own eyes spoken to countless others who have seen the same and read the works of many shuyukh who have also seen the same.

Many on this board would testify to what i am saying, so clearly you are or speaking out of ignorance and not knowing something.

no madhab can exist without correct narration from prophet pbuh. That narration combining with whole range of Islamic textual collection are where madhahib can differ due to its chain euthenics, understanding, interpretation and so on.

This is one reason for differences claiming it is the main one is ignorant.  It was the madhhabs after the time of the tabiin that collected these works and finished everything so your conclusion does not lead to the salafiyah which came a mere 200 years ago.

Opinions of Imam Shafi, Abu Hanifa, Ibnu Hanbal or Malik said are not per se deen.

No they are taken after the tabiin above the common muslim and well ahead of any wahhabi shaykh.

Rather which verse or hadith they based on their opinion is what is counted if itís correct.

You imagine in your mind they simply "based" there opinion on ahadith then "simply" concluded what is correct all the while placing your self at there level becouse you CLAIM you understand what it is they did to arrive at there rulings. Its all so simple brother why dont you go do it?

The fact is you are over simplifying everything not factoring in entire islamic sciences and missing far to much.

They said our opinion don't count if it contradict correct hadith.

Thank you for proving my point of being such extremists that you actually think you can correct a mujtahid Imam by quoting a hadith. Why dont we play hadith checkers or even better hadith poker my set of hadith will trump yours anyday [thats sarcasm if you didnt pick that up]

Every student knows that none of four imams collect all correct hadiths.

Yes that is true, when they where missing ahadith they performed ijtihad, it is said by the uluma that Imam abu hanifah was missing something like 100 individual ahadith in his time, his latter students compared his ijtihad to these ahadith and found his opinion to be in line with them.

Despite they based their madhabs on many hadiths (authentic and non authentic),

you paint the picture as if it was all wishy washy, the fact is the science of hadith verification began in the time of the tabiin and was perfected by the muhadithin. It didnt begin in the time of the Muhadithin as you imply here.

Similarly Usul al Fiqh which is pretty much what the madhhabs are has nothing to do whith hadith verification or even relies on it, so much for your in depth knowledge.

That is where Imam Bukhari/Muslim etc (Which has no Madhab to my reading) comes into picture to fill the gab.

Then you should keep reading, Imam Bukhari was a mujtahid Imam who many scholars claim had his own madhhab, imam muslim was either shafii or hanbali according to diferent accounts or maybe he simply swithched madhhabs which explain this, Imam muslim also did Taqlid of Imam Bukhari.

If we force dhulabul Ilmi (Student of knowledge) who has means to learn the  Usul tafsir, usul alhadith, usul fiqh,  usul luqah the same understanding of certain things that four madhabs say so then we make four imams at the ranks of prophet pbuh.

Only according to your psychological short commings as you seemingly are incapable of telling the difference according to your own analogy. Other people br are smarter than that and actually know the difference between rasul allah [sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam] and the four imams.

That is the baytul qasidah yaa sheekhana. We say, mujtahid, mujadid of this ummah can use same methodology and verify the wrongs of four madhahib without down grading their status.

The mujtahid or mujadid have only come from within the madhhabs them selves, so then now what is your point that muhammad ibn abdul wahhab was a mujtahid....only to the people who follow which is different from any other mujtahid or mujadid that came beffore him ecouse they where accepted by the entire muslim ummah as having this status in islam regardless of whether they followed them or not.

Why is so difficult to understand this simple truth?  Why do you want to claim something that doesnít exist? Why you hate your brothers in Islam who strive hard to hold the same foundation that four Madahibs stand for without blind taqlid.

Becouse you lack knwoledge, its that simple for me. You constantly contradict your self becouse you dont even know the meanings of simple words.

Every scholar in Islam did Taqlid of his teacher this is how knowledge was handed down in Islam.

Some jahil came along redefined the word Taqlid by adding blind at the end of it and every ignorant muslim in this ummah agreed with him without actualy bothering to look up he proper meaning of the word. But i guess that is why they are ignorant to begin with they are uneducated and follow gossip.

Since the madhhabs where here first BR you have to accept our definition of it which doesnt incldue the "blind" qualifying remark and thus permits a student to ask his teacher questions.

Bro, Its time you do revision of your sufi collection. Or Open your eyes on all correct sunni Islamic collections that form the bases of ahlul sunnah waljamaha.

Subhanahllah you cant even differentiate between sufism and fiqh how then can you pretend to lecture others.

Im Hanafi in my fiqh not sufi, if you ever learn the difference between the two rather than make it up as you go along you will see how blind this statment of your is.


Edited by rami
Rasul Allah (sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam) said: "Whoever knows himself, knows his Lord" and whoever knows his Lord has been given His gnosis and nearness.
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Quote minuteman Replybullet Posted: 19 August 2007 at 5:10am

 

 Abu Mujahid is wrong in many things because he may be living in far country. The people in Indian sub continent have good experience of the so called Wahhabi or salafi sect. There are many mosques and schools teaching the salafi doctrine. Its headquarter was in Patnah in India more than 150 years ago.

 The present day salafi school of thought seems to emanate from Sh. Mohmmad ibne abdul Wahhab. WE do not have any earlier history of these people. Now I come to some of the beliefs of these people and others.

1. They do have some good points because the brelvis (or may be Sufis too) had many shrines and they were actually doing lot of worthless anti-Islamic deeds on the shrines. The poor illitrate muslims used to go to Peers asking for advice and even seeking children. I cannot go into detail. There were a lot of very bad things being done there including lot of music and dancing.

2. The Wahhabis came as a treatment for the above type of maladies. That was good. But then they all got mixed up in the Noor (Light) and knowledge / no knowledge of the unseen (Ghaib). There was lot of tussle.

3. More problem because the Wahhabis (pls excuse me for using this term) said that the prophet was just a man (Bashar) like us. The Berlvis or the sufis did not like it. They said it was a sin to say such thing.

4. The work of the Salafis on that line was very good. But please note that I myself heard one of those Salafi types saying to me about the Aulia Allah (The saints ) that they were all fraud. I did not like it.

 I will try to continue this subject in next posts, Insha Allah.

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Quote minuteman Replybullet Posted: 19 August 2007 at 10:37am

 

 There have been querrels on the way the people pray (Salat). There is pressure for loud Aameen and raising of both hands at every takbeer by the Ahle Hadith. The people in Indian sub continent were not used to it. Theyhad been living peacfully and praying for centuries in the country but never seen such a thing.

 When these Hadith people came, there were differences in the mode of the prayers just because some one read in the books of Hadith about loud Aameen. So they wanted to put it into practice. That was because it was written in the books of Hadith. That is all. But they forgot the practice of the holy prophet which was being done from generation to generation. Was that all wrong?? Suddenly??

Also Fateha khalf Imam (to recite the Sura Fateha behind the Imam in all cases even when he is reciting the Surah loudly). Imam Abu hanifah did not advise that and did not do that and many and all people were not doing it. On top of all that, another loud Ameen. Imam Abu Hanifah said that Ameen can be said gently and quietly. But Ahle Hadith did not want it like that because it was written in some Hadith.... One should remember that Sunnah, the practice of the prophet was also a good source of knowledge.

Then the ahle Hadith were saying that if there was no Hadith then people will not know how to do Wudhu (ablution) and people would not know how many Raka'at prayer (Salat) is required at different times. I say that is the biggest lie of the proponents of the Hadith.

The books of Hadith were written after about 200 years. Were the people not doing any Wudhu before that?? Were the people not praying (Salat)??

The important thing is that there are three sects.

1. Ahle Hadith, who give more importance to the Ahadith after the Quran.

2. Ahle Sunnah, who give more importance to the Sunnah (Practice) of the holy prophet after the Quran.

3. Ahle Tashieh, the Shias who have their own hadith (and probably Own Quran too).

The discussion here is between the group No. 1 and group No. 2. Who is right and who is better in the matter of Deen e Islam. There is no need to be harsh. Every one can present their view peacefully.

More later if required.

 

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Quote Abu Mujahid Replybullet Posted: 20 August 2007 at 1:05am

[QUOTE=rami] Bi ismillahi rahmani raheem


No one is rejecting

Your first mistake or lie. Salafi's reject the madhhabs, Ijazah and Taqlid maybe not in your little corner of the world but i assure you in every other place on earth i have seen this with my own eyes spoken to countless others who have seen the same and read the works of many shuyukh who have also seen the same.

 

It's you and likes who lie about Salafi in this regard. The Salafis reject blind following of Madhab as I stated before. Sh. Ibnu Baz and Othaimein was Hanabali in Madhabs but not blind followers of such madhab. Your hatred toward Salafist and ignorance about slam makes you perpetuate this kind of  lies all the time. 



>Many on this board would testify to what i am saying, so clearly you are or speaking out of ignorance and not knowing something<.

 

Hada mabalghula minal ILmi.....Board members would testify for you?!! What ahlul ilm? You don't only lacks legit istidlaal but also lack method of Istidlaal. Listen bro why not getting proof from Salafi books in which they are saying no madhab should be followed if you want to close this chapter. Once you do that the readers will see who is telling the truth from who is lying and twisting the words.



no madhab can exist without correct narration from prophet pbuh. That narration combining with whole range of Islamic textual collection are where madhahib can differ due to its chain euthenics, understanding, interpretation and so on.

>This is one reason for differences claiming it is the main one is ignorant.  It was the madhhabs after the time of the tabiin that collected these works and finished everything so your conclusion does not lead to the salafiyah which came a mere 200 years ago<

 

Look what I said and your empty response. Again you demonstrate your utter ignorance about Islam despite you wear big hanafi Turban. Your hate to truth blinds you even choosing the correct words. When you define the whole salaf by a group of people bound by timeline then I should give up and have a coffee. Your saying of Salafiyah come into existence two hundred years ago shows how much you read rather know about Islam.

 

Opinions of Imam Shafi, Abu Hanifa, Ibnu Hanbal or Malik said are not per se deen.

>No they are taken after the tabiin above the common muslim and well ahead of any wahhabi shaykh<

 

Again, don't you get it eh? I can't keep up with your ignorance. What is wrong with you bro? Where is in the world I said Wahabi Sheikh said this or that in our exchange here?.  The simple fact is and  most muslims agree: four imam opinions don't count unless they back up by daliil. Period.



Rather which verse or hadith they based on their opinion is what is counted if itís correct.


>You imagine in your mind they simply "based" there opinion on ahadith then "simply" concluded what is correct all the while placing your self at there level becouse you CLAIM you understand what it is they did to arrive at there rulings. Its all so simple brother why dont you go do it?

The fact is you are over simplifying everything not factoring in entire islamic sciences and missing far to much<

 

But you didnít refute the simple fact I stated above. Stop personalizing the debate. What I said is simple fact that all muslim scholars agree. They (Four Imams) draw their madhab or conclusion from Quran and sunnah using each IMAM his own methodology and understanding. That is why they differ sometimes, while other times they concur.



They said our opinion don't count if it contradict correct hadith.

>Thank you for proving my point of being such extremists that you actually think you can correct a mujtahid Imam by quoting a hadith. Why dont we play hadith checkers or even better hadith poker my set of hadith will trump yours anyday [thats sarcasm if you didnt pick that up]<

 

Aside from your fake Sarcasm!!!   What proof are you talking about? Why personalizing debate? You can't refute it eh?!! It seems you are after Abu Mujahid only not the substance of the subject. Listen bro, you can label me as your turban thread reach but don't lie about the foundation of four IMAMS.



Every student knows that none of four imams collect all correct hadiths.

>Yes that is true, when they where missing ahadith they performed ijtihad, it is said by the uluma that Imam abu hanifah was missing something like 100 individual ahadith in his time, his latter students compared his ijtihad to these ahadith and found his opinion to be in line with them<.

 

Yaa Salaam what a lie?!!! So his ijtihad was protected by Allah. Why don't you say also it was Ruhani Ilham that guide his students to reach this marvelous conclusion. Or his tongue was protected from saying any wrong.  Hey, why we blame Shia IMAMS hooligans when we have in our midst this diehard sunni extremist Madhabist. Listen, what you said is utter nonsense. IMAM Abu Hanifa is well known as Sahibu Al-Rai' (Opinion person). He was weak in hadith so he built his madhab on whatever hadith he got it and and his own ijtihad. No one blame him for that because he did not meet a lot of people carrying correct sunnah. While four other madhabs if you aware are more close to sunnah despite Malik used Madina group deeds as hujjah (prove).

 

The four Madhahib ranks are well known among scholars and you are preaching here Abu Hanifa only missed 100 hadith. You are Mutassib hanafi Halik.  



Despite they based their madhabs on many hadiths (authentic and non authentic),


>you paint the picture as if it was all wishy washy, the fact is the science of hadith verification began in the time of the tabiin and was perfected by the muhadithin. It didnít begin in the time of the Muhadithin as you imply here<

 

That is also a lie. What about when prophet warned sahaba not lie about him? What about Omar Bin Khatab challenge to one of sahaba about hadith he said? Anyway, Itís not wishy washy what I said. Its fact that they based their madhab -beside Quran- on hadith collection they have at their disposal.


>Similarly Usul al Fiqh which is pretty much what the madhhabs are has nothing to do with hadith verification or even relies on it, so much for your in depth knowledge<

 

 I talk about what they based on their madhab not hadith verification. BTW, are you saying usul fiqhi has nothing to with Quran and correct sunnah? you are very confused Sufi 


That is where Imam Bukhari/Muslim etc (Which has no Madhab to my reading) comes into picture to fill the gab.


>Then you should keep reading, Imam Bukhari was a mujtahid Imam who many scholars claim had his own madhhab, imam muslim was either shafii or hanbali according to diferent accounts or maybe he simply swithched madhhabs which explain this, Imam muslim also did Taqlid of Imam Bukhari<

 

Imam Bukhari/Muslim was 2 muhadiths/Mujtahidins not blind muqallidens. Both followed Quran and sunnah with the concept of Sahaba only. Any other claim against this is mere hearsay only.

 

BTW, Imam Muslim never did taqlid to Imam Bukhari despite he was his students. He didn't follow entire madhab of tajrih or tashih (correction) of IMAM Bukhari. Read his intro where he went after Bukhari condition of rawi and almarwi anhu. Bukhari said they should meet face to face. Imam muslim went opposite and said suffice to me they live same time etc.



If we force dhulabul Ilmi (Student of knowledge) who has means to learn the  Usul tafsir, usul alhadith, usul fiqh,  usul luqah the same understanding of certain things that four madhabs say so then we make four imams at the ranks of prophet pbuh.

>Only according to your psychological short commings as you seemingly are incapable of telling the difference according to your own analogy. Other people br are smarter than that and actually know the difference between rasul allah [sallah llahu alaihi wa sallam] and the four imams<.

 

The person who is incapable here is you. In a nutshell, my point was we are not bound to everything four imams has said all the time. Look what you replied with arrogance.



That is the baytul qasidah yaa sheekhana. We say, mujtahid, mujadid of this ummah can use same methodology and verify the wrongs of four madhahib without down grading their status.


>The mujtahid or mujadid have only come from within the madhhabs them selves, so then now what is your point that muhammad ibn abdul wahhab was a mujtahid....only to the people who follow which is different from any other mujtahid or mujadid that came beffore him ecouse they where accepted by the entire muslim ummah as having this status in islam regardless of whether they followed them or not<.

 

Why brinking Sh. Muhammad Ibnu Abdulwahab who was Hanbali in Madhab into this discussion. I never mention him once in my entire post. Bro you need to be real. Anyway, you didn't come up different than what I said.   



Why is so difficult to understand this simple truth?  Why do you want to claim something that doesnít exist? Why you hate your brothers in Islam who strive hard to hold the same foundation that four Madahibs stand for without blind taqlid.

>Becouse you lack knwoledge, its that simple for me. You constantly contradict your self becouse you dont even know the meanings of simple words<

 

Listen you didn't answer my question. Instead you refuge as usual bad mouthing. The sad reality is you run an Islamic school or college or Islamic courses somewhere in your Lebanese etc community in Australia and you behave here like that this way. May Allah give you knowledge and clean heart.



>Every scholar in Islam did Taqlid of his teacher this is how knowledge was handed down in Islam. Taqlid<

 

That is not whole true. If what are you saying is true then why four madhahibs founders didn't stick with their first teacher Abu Hanifa?. They were following him with dalil (prove) not taqlid yaa sheekhana.


>Some jahil came along redefined the word Taqlid by adding blind at the end of it and every ignorant muslim in this ummah agreed with him without actualy bothering to look up he proper meaning of the word. But i guess that is why they are ignorant to begin with they are uneducated and follow gossip<

.

They were Jahil and following gossip!!.... What a cheap claim. Rami, you are losing here your sufi steam. Stop insult and focus on the topic at hand. Following one Madhab is not all that deen. IMAMs never said it, so why puting things in their mouth.  Fear Allah



>Since the madhhabs where here first BR you have to accept our definition of it which doesnt incldue the "blind" qualifying remark and thus permits a student to ask his teacher questions<

 

Accept your definition?!!  what definition? to follow your madhab blindly or ala basirah? masha Allah what A fiqhi!!!. You like to invent things eh!!! I call you bro to learn how to ask dalil or prove your muridi/teachers.  With that you can save your deen. Otherwise you miss a lot of this deen.



Bro, Its time you do revision of your sufi collection. Or Open your eyes on all correct sunni Islamic collections that form the bases of ahlul sunnah waljamaha.


>Subhanahllah you cant even differentiate between sufism and fiqh how then can you pretend to lecture others.

Im Hanafi in my fiqh not sufi, if you ever learn the difference between the two rather than make it up as you go along you will see how blind this statment of your is<

 

I know from the begining you are Hanafi in madhab sufi halik in tariqah. Don't make habba Qubah.


 

May Allah guide us to the right path.

 

Abu Mujahid



Edited by Abu Mujahid
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Quote minuteman Replybullet Posted: 20 August 2007 at 1:22pm

 

 The above reply from Abu Mujahid is to Rami. See his post:

 Again, don't you get it eh? I can't keep up with your ignorance. What is wrong with you bro? Where is in the world I said Wahabi Sheikh said this or that in our exchange here?.  The simple fact is and  most muslims agree: four imam opinions don't count unless they back up by daliil. Period.

 

My comments:

Who are the most Muslims? The salafis or Wahhabis are a minority group. And Abu Mujahid wants a daleel from some where for what the four Imams say. According to him the daleel should come from where, from his book of Hadees??? or from Quran?? orfrom the practice of the holy prophet s.a.w.s.

 

 But Abu Mujahid is not telling which daleel will suit him. I had posted above. Perhaps Abu Mujahid has not seen that yet. Anyhow, I will wait for a reply. I feel that Abu Mujahid lives in a different world. I have seen that this salafi faith is all over the S. Arabia and that was prescribed by Muhammad bin Abdul Wahhab.

 

 Abu Mujahid has objection to following the Imams blindly. Likewise we have objection to the Salafis about following the Hadith blindly and giving it too much importance, undue importance. We Sunnis do not reject the Hadith. We do Taqleed. Our Imam (Abu Hanifah) was well aware of the Hadees too. Imam Malik was a great teacher of Hadees in Madinah.

 

The problem with the salafis is that since they do not have an Imam, they have to interpret the Hadith themselves. So every one becomes a Mujtahid. How come?? The present day salafi teachings all seem to emanate from Muhammad bin Abdul Wahhab. But letus say thatitis wrong. Then Abu Mujahid should tell the status of Muhammad bin Abdul Wahhab in the salafi line or doctrine.

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