Active TopicsActive Topics  Display List of Forum MembersMemberlist  CalendarCalendar  Search The ForumSearch  HelpHelp
  RegisterRegister  LoginLogin  Old ForumOld Forum  Twitter  Facebook
Advertisement:
         

Interfaith Dialogue
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Interfaith Dialogue
Message Icon Topic: Does God beget ? Post Reply Post New Topic
<< Prev Page  of 53 Next >>
Author Message
Jocko
 
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 11 September 2007
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 179
Quote Jocko Replybullet Posted: 23 September 2007 at 2:45am

 

  Wow, many comments to respond to.

  First yours, BMZ

Hello Jocko,

I have just one important comment to make:

There is no systemised theology in Psalms. Psalm are not prophecies. Psalms exalt and glorify God. There is no Jesus in there. Thanks

Praise only the Lord Almighty God.

BMZ

   BMZ,

        This what you have said goes against the very teaching of Jesus Himself.

         After His resurrection He appeared to the disciples. They examined Him. And He opened their minds to understand all that had been written concerning Him in the Old Testament Scriptures. This He also said:

   "These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you; that all the things written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and Psalms concerning Me must be fulfilled." (Luke 24:44)

  As you can clearly see, Jesus taught that the Psalms ALSO had things written in them concerning Himself.

  But it boils down to whether you accept the word of Jesus, the word of the Apostles and writers of the New Testament or whether you are putting your trust in what someone else said about it like Mohammed.

 I put my trust in what Jesus said about it as faithfully recorded by the Evangelist Luke.

 ( I might agree with you that the truth is not tightly "systematized" in Psalms. But it is there)

 



Edited by Jocko
I am a Christian Guest at this Moslem Forum - until otherwise informed. Hello!
IP IP Logged
Jocko
 
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 11 September 2007
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 179
Quote Jocko Replybullet Posted: 23 September 2007 at 2:56am

 

  Israfil,

   This is for you.

   1.) I do not copy and paste the Bible into this discussion. I write it in myself. Probably, you could catch me in a typo once or twice.

     But I do NOT copy and paste the Bible into this forum.

   2.) You can draw my attention to anything you feel I evaded purposely. It could be that I had time to address only some of your points and not others.

       Probably each of us participating are also doing many other things.

   If you do choose to ignore what I COPIED BY HAND from the Bible, the loss is yours, not mine.

   Now what was it that you feel I evaded?

 

 

 

I am a Christian Guest at this Moslem Forum - until otherwise informed. Hello!
IP IP Logged
minuteman
 
Senior Member
Senior  Member


Joined: 25 March 2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 1642
Quote minuteman Replybullet Posted: 23 September 2007 at 3:00am

 

 Jocko has proved that the Psalms are very much there, as shown below:

 "These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you; that all the things written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and Psalms concering Me must be fulfilled." (Luke 24:44)

 Very good. We must have a good look at this verse recorded by Luke. "That all the things written in the law of Moses and Pslams concerning me must be fulfilled..." Like 24:44.

 Now let us examine these words, specially about the law of Moses. Was it written in the Law of Moses that his law will be abolished when Jesus will come? The law of Moses has been abolished by the evangelists according to the teachings of Jesus. Please show where it was written in the Law of Moses that his law will be abolished in the time of Jesus a.s. That people will start eating the flesh of swine in the time of (or after) Jesus a.s.

 That prophesy seems to have been fulfilled and all things written must be fulfilled and the law has been abolished but where was it written in the books of Moses that his law will live only upto the time of the Mesiah (Jesus a.s.). Was it promised and it is fulfilled?? How it is fulfilled by abolishing it??

 



Edited by minuteman
If any one is bad some one must suffer
IP IP Logged
Jocko
 
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 11 September 2007
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 179
Quote Jocko Replybullet Posted: 23 September 2007 at 3:45am

 

 

 BMZ,

  If I see a group of children and I tell them, "Come, let us go and play a game." It is me, just one man, who is saying that.  We should not take that word 'us' or 'Us' or 'US' seriously to decide how many Gods were there.  The Christians just are trying their best to show the 'plurality' of G

   1.)  It is true that the capitalization in English is sometimes the preference of the translators. In some English Bibles you would not see "Us" in capitals, for example the 1901 American Standard Bible which I use very much as a Christian. The impact of the passage is the same to me though, with or without capitals.

  2.) We do not have to guess how many Gods there are. The Bible, on no uncertain grounds, informs us that there is only one. So "Let us" used three or four times in the Hebrew Scriptures in Genesis three times and in Isaiah once, do not circumvent the plan teaching that there is one God.

 3.) None of the things in which God said "Let Us / us" were a game. They were all crucial points in the relationship between the one God and His creature man.

     God wanted man to be united in Him and not in anything else. He interfered with the building of the tower of Babel because man was united apart from God and even against God. So the Divine Us came down and interfered that the history of man would take another course until He could unite man at Pentacost in the Holy Spirit. I speak of the book of Acts when the exalted Christ sent down the Holy Spirit to create the New Testament church.

 God saying "Let us / Us" make man in our image must be reckoned with. Who is the image of the "us"?  If He was talking to angels you have to demonstrate at least one of two things:

 1.) The angels are in the image of God. How else could God say "our image?"

 2.) That the Creator needed the angels to help Him create anything.

   Can you point to another example in the Bible where the angels assist God in the creation of something? At least one other example would be helpful to stengthen your interpretation that God was speaking to the angels.

   Another question for you: If the angels were also in the image of God what was the need for Him to make more creatures out of the dust of the ground in His own image? Why could He not simply make more angels?

   All these answers may not be in one place. And they may not all be in Genesis. The truth of God is spread around in the other books of the Bible. You have to continue reading and have help from the Holy Spirit in understanding.

   Jesus said that He and His Father would come as the Divine "We" to make an abode in His saved people.  

  "Jesus answered and said to him, If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word, and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make an abode with him" (John 14:23).

  The New Testament tells us that for God to come into His people is according to His eternal purpose. So if it was according to His eternal purpose then even in Genesis, in relationship to His creating man, it is understandable that He would refer to a Divine "Us".

 Though the Son had not become a human you still see the concept of God entering into man in Genesis. You it in the tree of life which was central to the garden into which man was placed.

 The eating of the tree of life signified the entering into man of the life of God. Blood was not yet needed because man had not yet sinned and was not yet in need of the redeeming blood sacrifice for atonement.

 But before the problem of sin came in you had God's eternal intention to come into man as the Triune God, the Divine "Us" and the Divine "We". And this tree of life stood there to signify the taking into himself the divine and eternal life of God to mingle into the created human life of man.

 Apparently, eternal life is far beyond our ability to imagine. God is one. Yet He is an extensive, unbounded, unlimited life like no other created life in the universe.

 Though God is not easy to understand He is available to experience and enjoy.

 



Edited by Jocko
I am a Christian Guest at this Moslem Forum - until otherwise informed. Hello!
IP IP Logged
Jocko
 
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 11 September 2007
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 179
Quote Jocko Replybullet Posted: 23 September 2007 at 4:33am
Originally posted by minuteman

 

 Jocko has proved that the Psalms are very much there, as shown below:

 "These are My words which I spoke to you while I was still with you; that all the things written in the Law of Moses and the Prophets and Psalms concering Me must be fulfilled." (Luke 24:44)

 Very good. We must have a good look at this verse recorded by Luke. "That all the things written in the law of Moses and Pslams concerning me must be fulfilled..." Like 24:44.

 Now let us examine these words, specially about the law of Moses. Was it written in the Law of Moses that his law will be abolished when Jesus will come? The law of Moses has been abolished by the evangelists according to the teachings of Jesus. Please show where it was written in the Law of Moses that his law will be abolished in the time of Jesus a.s. That people will start eating the flesh of swine in the time of (or after) Jesus a.s.

 That prophesy seems to have been fulfilled and all things written must be fulfilled and the law has been abolished but where was it written in the books of Moses that his law will live only upto the time of the Mesiah (Jesus a.s.). Was it promised and it is fulfilled?? How it is fulfilled by abolishing it??

 Minuteman,

      I will try to answer your question but in relation to the topic of God's begetting. It is related to that very much. But I need time.

     It is not so simple that the law is abolished in Christ's coming.

    The morality of the law was not abolished. It was strengthened, uplifted, and made more penetrating down to the innermost motive of man rather than simply touching the outward action.

   The ritual part of the law consisting of symbols which pointed to the coming of Christ we abolished and replaced by Christ in His work.

  So the abolishing of the law is not a simple matter. As I am sure you know Jesus said:

  "Do not think that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets; I have not come to abolish, but to fulfill. For truly I say to you, Until heaven and earth pass away, one iota or one serif shall by no means pass away from the law until all came to pass." (Matthew 5:17,18)

  Yet at the same time we the Apostle Paul writing:

 "[Christ] Abolishing in His flesh the law of the commandments in ordinances, that He mght create thetwo in Himself (Jews and Gentiles) into one new man, so making peace" (Eph. 2:13).

 And we see Jesus breaking the law of the Sabbath and going against other traditions of the Jews. To deal with this matter takes more than a simple paragraph's discussion. So I will not try to briefly deal with it.

 Exept that the Old Testament said that in the new covenant God would impart something living into man's being. And this living law would cause God to have a people. Here is where we see God promising to replace the old law with a new law of life written into the inner being of His people:

 "Indeed, days are coming, declares Jehovah, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah, not like the covenant which I made with their fathers in the day I took them by their hand to bring them out from the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, although I was their Husband, declares Jehovah.

 But this is the covenant which I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares Jehovah. I will put My law within them and write it upon their hearts; and I will be their God, and they will be My people.

And they will no longer teach, each man his neighbor and each man his brother, saying, Know Jehovah; for all of them will know Me, from the little one among them even to the great one among them, declares Jehovah, for U will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more." (Jer. 31:31-34)

 Those who will not read my quotes from the Bible will miss out.

  In the new covenant to come God will impart His life into man. He will dispense His Spirit into man. He Himself will come to live in man and be a law of life.

 God becomes a man in Jesus the Son of Man / the Son of God. He lives a perfect life on earth and dies a vicarious death for the sins of the people. Those who believe into Christ will have their sins forgiven and forgotten by God. God looks upon them as if they had never sinned. In fact they were punished for thier sins in Jesus Christ on His cross.

 Then He resurrects and becomes the indwelling Spirit of life imparting the law of life on the inside of man's being. "For the law of the Spirit of life has freed me in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and of death" (Romans 8:2).

  He Himself become the law inscribed "organically" into us by His mingling Himself into our being.

 So, my dear Moslem friends (and dear enemies), when you read "I will put My law within them and write it upon their hearts; and I will be their God, and they will be My people ...  for all of them will know Me..." in Jeremiah you must understand that that is what Jesus is doing when He says:

" ... he will keep My word, and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make an abode with him" (John 14:23).

 The writing of God's law into our hearts is His sending the Spirit of the resurrected Jesus into us with the Father to make an abode within us.

 God writes Himself into the saved ones. God imparts His life and nature into the saved ones. God dispenses His life into the hearts of the saved ones.

 This inward dispensing of the Triune God - the Father and the Son as teh Divine "We" as the Holy Spirit of life, the Spirit of reality, is the new covenant promised in Jeremiah 31:31-34.

It abolishes the older way of justification by keeping the commandments in ordinances of Moses.

 Now please recall that from the creation of man God desired that man would eat of the tree of life. This signified the taking of God as life into man. So even before sin came in God desired to impart Himself into even a good man.

 God simply wants to mingle Himself with man. God wants to be expressed from within man and have man live out from Him in a harmonious life union.

 When we look carefully at Jesus Christ we see this desired union and mingling of divinity and humanity.

 

I am a Christian Guest at this Moslem Forum - until otherwise informed. Hello!
IP IP Logged
Israfil
 
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 08 September 2003
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3984
Quote Israfil Replybullet Posted: 23 September 2007 at 9:55am
Originally posted by Jocko

 

  Israfil,

   This is for you.

   1.) I do not copy and paste the Bible into this discussion. I write it in myself. Probably, you could catch me in a typo once or twice.

     But I do NOT copy and paste the Bible into this forum.

   2.) You can draw my attention to anything you feel I evaded purposely. It could be that I had time to address only some of your points and not others.

       Probably each of us participating are also doing many other things.

   If you do choose to ignore what I COPIED BY HAND from the Bible, the loss is yours, not mine.

   Now what was it that you feel I evaded?

 

 

You have evaded everything.

You have responded to others before me when I offered you my response. It appears you have a better time arguing with other based on the Bible rather than dialetical discussion. Anyway no need to respond it appears that you run from discussion and to think I had hope you would be the one to stand up to a giant and discuss this.

IP IP Logged
Jocko
 
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 11 September 2007
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 179
Quote Jocko Replybullet Posted: 23 September 2007 at 10:43am

 

 

You have responded to others before me when I offered you my response. It appears you have a better time arguing with other based on the Bible rather than dialetical discussion. Anyway no need to respond it appears that you run from discussion and to think I had hope you would be the one to stand up to a giant and discuss this.

   Of course I argue with you about salvation based on the Bible.

   I don't argue about my faith based on the American Constitution or the teachings of Sigmund Freud or the philosophy of Socrates or the science of Albert Einstien or the Quran of Mohammed or the politics of Plato or anything else.

 If the arguement is about the Christian faith then you can expect that I will argue based on the Bible. That is where I derive my faith from.

I don't think I have ignored anyone completely.

 

   

 



Edited by Jocko
I am a Christian Guest at this Moslem Forum - until otherwise informed. Hello!
IP IP Logged
Jocko
 
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 11 September 2007
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 179
Quote Jocko Replybullet Posted: 23 September 2007 at 10:59am

 

  For anyone who thinks I have been unfair to Israfil, I will go back through Israfil's writings (which are as verbose as my own).

  I will find a point of his which I think is really difficult. I will either explain WHY I don't have a response or respond.

  I already told one poster that I could not explain something. It does not bother me to confess that there is something I don't know if that is the case.

 That is why this is a matter of faith. But by faith we enjoy and experience the resurrected Christ.

  

I am a Christian Guest at this Moslem Forum - until otherwise informed. Hello!
IP IP Logged
<< Prev Page  of 53 Next >>
Post Reply Post New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

Disclaimer:
The opinions expressed herein contain positions and viewpoints that are not necessarily those of IslamiCity. This forum is offered to stimulate dialogue and discussion in our continuing mission of being an educational organization.
If there is any issue with any of the postings please email to icforum at islamicity.com or if you are a forum's member you can use the report button.

Note: The 99 names of Allah avatars are courtesy of www.arthafez.com

Advertisement:



Sponsored by:
Islamicity Membership Program:
IslamiCity Donation Program  http://www.islamicity.com/Donate
IslamiCity Arabic eLearning http://www.islamiCity.com/ArabAcademy
Complete Domain & Hosting Solutions www.icDomain.com
Home for Muslim Tunes www.icTunes.com
Islamic Video Collections www.islamiTV.com
IslamiCity Marriage Site www.icMarriage.com