IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum: Does God beget ?

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minuteman

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Posted: 23 July 2008 at 11:36am

We can Imagine Jesus as a lord in present day usage of the word, as we have a house of Lords in London. That is a very senior respectable person. We can believe Jesus like that and some of his disciples too. I hope you also believe like that.

But the word used in the Quran is Rabb. That is an attribute of Allah. That means more than the present day meaning of the word (lord).

It means do not take others as lords and do not make them a source of guidance as good as they should know that God is a source. Anyhow, I am happy that you have sent a lengthy reply and explained the meaning of the word "Lord". Thanks.

I hope you will also agree with me that the christian ( and their church or false religion) took Jesus as a lord and they took the disciples also as a lord beside Allah. That is what corrupted their book. They should have remained to the teachings of Jesus only. (But you will not agree to my last sentence, perhaps).

You asked me about my English. I am beginning to feel that you are also very weak in English. You are not a proper natural english person.

Edited by minuteman - 23 July 2008 at 11:39am

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myahya

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Posted: 24 July 2008 at 12:56am

Robin:

SHOW ME WHAT HAS BEEN REMOVED THEN!

I have not hidden them to show you them again. However, Quran tells us some parts are removed or hidden which were about Islamic history and the Apostle of Islam Mohammad s.a.w.a. According to Quran, the priests recognized Mohammad s.a.w.a. as much as they recognized their children. Some of them used to hide parts of the book even at that time:

Quran (5:15): O people of the Book! There hath come to you our Messenger, revealing to you much that ye used to hide in the Book, and passing over much (that is now unnecessary). There hath come to you from Allah a (new) light and a perspicuous Book

Edited by myahya - 24 July 2008 at 12:57am

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robin

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Posted: 24 July 2008 at 1:11am

Originally posted by myahya

Robin:

SHOW ME WHAT HAS BEEN REMOVED THEN!

You have to use the Bible to show me where it is wrong, as I do not except the Quran as God's word, thus it has no authority when it comments on the Bible from my point of view!

Edited by robin - 24 July 2008 at 1:11am

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minuteman

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Posted: 24 July 2008 at 7:26pm

robin, would you believe the bible OT or NT? Which one? And the changes are to be shown made into OT or NT? Have we to prove that the NT is different to the bible OT? Or we have to show that OT is different to NT.

Since you do not believe in Quran, then there is no Moses too. And no Torah. So how you will prove the truth of Moses and Torah? Please tell. You will use history or some other book of God?

I believe that if there is no Muhammad and no Quran then there is no prophet in the world at all. Muhammad is super seal of all prophets of God.

Moses told about the coming of Muhammad (Deut 18:18). But some one made changes in the bible and concealed that news. Moses told of the coming of a prophet like him. Jesus told of the coming of a prophet like him (Ahmad, parclete). But people concealed that too. So on what ground can you do any business if you deny the sacred book of the other party. Who will believe your book? Please tell. Thanks.

If any one is bad some one must suffer

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myahya

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Posted: 25 July 2008 at 12:52am

Robin: You have to use the Bible to show me where it is wrong, as I do not except the Quran as God's word, thus it has no authority when it comments on the Bible from my point of view!

In the very verse you quoted (Revelation 22:18-19), why do you think it is mentioned that “If anyone makes an addition to these things,” or “if anyone takes anything away from the words of the scroll of this prophecy” ? It clearly means that people will do it. That is why it is warning people to avoid it. It would have been the same for Quran if Allah had not kept it. Allah in Quran says: “WE preserve it” and He did.

In addition, I have to say that you are carving a belief for yourself saying “I do not except the Quran as God's word”. Isa a.s. never told people to deny the true religion or Holy book after him. Because he knew that there had to be a new religion, a new book and the last prophet, while inviting people to the guidance after him.

Edited by myahya - 25 July 2008 at 12:57am

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sdaignau

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Posted: 25 July 2008 at 10:20am

Robin:

Hi. Why are you even having this conversation (or any similar conversations in other posts on this site) if Islam's Quran and beliefs are unacceptable to you? I don't understand why you would even want to debate it. People who believe in Islam consider the Quran to be the only definite word of God on earth. Every other book of Abraham (or Abraham's figurative descendants) is a translation or copy that cannot be traced back to the "original". Only the Quran can be definitively traced back to Muhammad's statements as he made them to his followers 14-15 centuries, ago, since they were written down at that time and those original transcriptions still exist, today. This is the basis for the truth of Islam and in the mind of a Muslim, it cannot be denied. If you wish to find the same concrete evidence in Christianity, then there is nothing to discuss or debate. Faith and proof are mutually exclusive. People living in the present day do not have the benefit of first hand knowledge of proof that existed hundreds/thousands of years ago. Muslims, Christians, and Jews try to tell each other they have proof when they clearly do not accept each other's historical basis. This is the only self evidency of religion in the world, today.

Btw, my comments here do not reflect a personal bias or belief in any particular faith that I have. In particular, I am not qualified to make statements of fact regarding any religion. I can only repeat what I see other people say and write. I have no proof of any sort whatsoever.

Edited by sdaignau - 25 July 2008 at 10:22am

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robin

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Posted: 25 July 2008 at 10:53pm

Originally posted by minuteman

I believe that they are just one testament to the unfolding wll of God!

Since you do not believe in Quran, then there is no Moses too. And no Torah. So how you will prove the truth of Moses and Torah? Please tell. You will use history or some other book of God?

I do not believe that the Quran is inspired of God, that in no way effects the existance of Moses or other persons mentioned in the Bible!

I believe that if there is no Muhammad and no Quran then there is no prophet in the world at all. Muhammad is super seal of all prophets of God.

I did not say that Muhhamad did not exist, I just do not believe the he was God's prophet. He was a believer in a god but not the God of Jesus Christ!

Moses fortold the coming of one of his brothers a Jew, Jesus Christ!-robin

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robin

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Posted: 25 July 2008 at 11:02pm

Originally posted by sdaignau

Robin:

The theme of this thread is “Does God beget? This I address using the Bible:-

John 1:14

So the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a father. .

John 1:18

No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god* who is in the bosom [position] with the Father is the one that has explained him.

*Jesus in Heaven

John 3:16-18

“For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life. ¹⁷ For God sent forth his Son into the world, not for him to judge the world, but for the world to be saved through him. ¹⁸ He that exercises faith in him is not to be judged. He that does not exercise faith has been judged already, because he has not exercised faith in the name of the only-begotten Son of God.

1 John 4:9

By this the love of God was made manifest in our case, because God sent forth his only-begotten Son into the world that we might gain life through him.

So the Bible says Yes, God does beget! Whether in believe the Quran does not matter here, as the question is addressed to and about the Bible! See post one.

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Author	Message
minuteman Senior Member Joined: 25 March 2007 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1642	Posted: 23 July 2008 at 11:36am
	We can Imagine Jesus as a lord in present day usage of the word, as we have a house of Lords in London. That is a very senior respectable person. We can believe Jesus like that and some of his disciples too. I hope you also believe like that. But the word used in the Quran is Rabb. That is an attribute of Allah. That means more than the present day meaning of the word (lord). It means do not take others as lords and do not make them a source of guidance as good as they should know that God is a source. Anyhow, I am happy that you have sent a lengthy reply and explained the meaning of the word "Lord". Thanks. I hope you will also agree with me that the christian ( and their church or false religion) took Jesus as a lord and they took the disciples also as a lord beside Allah. That is what corrupted their book. They should have remained to the teachings of Jesus only. (But you will not agree to my last sentence, perhaps). You asked me about my English. I am beginning to feel that you are also very weak in English. You are not a proper natural english person. Edited by minuteman - 23 July 2008 at 11:39am
	If any one is bad some one must suffer
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myahya Senior Member Joined: 06 February 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 222	Posted: 24 July 2008 at 12:56am
	Robin: SHOW ME WHAT HAS BEEN REMOVED THEN! I have not hidden them to show you them again. However, Quran tells us some parts are removed or hidden which were about Islamic history and the Apostle of Islam Mohammad s.a.w.a. According to Quran, the priests recognized Mohammad s.a.w.a. as much as they recognized their children. Some of them used to hide parts of the book even at that time: Quran (5:15): O people of the Book! There hath come to you our Messenger, revealing to you much that ye used to hide in the Book, and passing over much (that is now unnecessary). There hath come to you from Allah a (new) light and a perspicuous Book Edited by myahya - 24 July 2008 at 12:57am
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robin Senior Member Joined: 17 May 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 595	Posted: 24 July 2008 at 1:11am
	*Originally posted by myahya* Robin: SHOW ME WHAT HAS BEEN REMOVED THEN! I have not hidden them to show you them again. However, Quran tells us some parts are removed or hidden which were about Islamic history and the Apostle of Islam Mohammad s.a.w.a. According to Quran, the priests recognized Mohammad s.a.w.a. as much as they recognized their children. Some of them used to hide parts of the book even at that time: Quran (5:15): O people of the Book! There hath come to you our Messenger, revealing to you much that ye used to hide in the Book, and passing over much (that is now unnecessary). There hath come to you from Allah a (new) light and a perspicuous Book You have to use the Bible to show me where it is wrong, as I do not except the Quran as God's word, thus it has no authority when it comments on the Bible from my point of view! Edited by robin - 24 July 2008 at 1:11am
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minuteman Senior Member Joined: 25 March 2007 Online Status: Offline Posts: 1642	Posted: 24 July 2008 at 7:26pm
	robin, would you believe the bible OT or NT? Which one? And the changes are to be shown made into OT or NT? Have we to prove that the NT is different to the bible OT? Or we have to show that OT is different to NT. Since you do not believe in Quran, then there is no Moses too. And no Torah. So how you will prove the truth of Moses and Torah? Please tell. You will use history or some other book of God? I believe that if there is no Muhammad and no Quran then there is no prophet in the world at all. Muhammad is super seal of all prophets of God. Moses told about the coming of Muhammad (Deut 18:18). But some one made changes in the bible and concealed that news. Moses told of the coming of a prophet like him. Jesus told of the coming of a prophet like him (Ahmad, parclete). But people concealed that too. So on what ground can you do any business if you deny the sacred book of the other party. Who will believe your book? Please tell. Thanks.
	If any one is bad some one must suffer
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myahya Senior Member Joined: 06 February 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 222	Posted: 25 July 2008 at 12:52am
	Robin: You have to use the Bible to show me where it is wrong, as I do not except the Quran as God's word, thus it has no authority when it comments on the Bible from my point of view! In the very verse you quoted (Revelation 22:18-19), why do you think it is mentioned that “If anyone makes an addition to these things,” or “if anyone takes anything away from the words of the scroll of this prophecy” ? It clearly means that people will do it. That is why it is warning people to avoid it. It would have been the same for Quran if Allah had not kept it. Allah in Quran says: “WE preserve it” and He did. In addition, I have to say that you are carving a belief for yourself saying “I do not except the Quran as God's word”. Isa a.s. never told people to deny the true religion or Holy book after him. Because he knew that there had to be a new religion, a new book and the last prophet, while inviting people to the guidance after him. Edited by myahya - 25 July 2008 at 12:57am
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sdaignau Starter Joined: 03 July 2008 Location: United States Online Status: Offline Posts: 6	Posted: 25 July 2008 at 10:20am
	Robin: Hi. Why are you even having this conversation (or any similar conversations in other posts on this site) if Islam's Quran and beliefs are unacceptable to you? I don't understand why you would even want to debate it. People who believe in Islam consider the Quran to be the only definite word of God on earth. Every other book of Abraham (or Abraham's figurative descendants) is a translation or copy that cannot be traced back to the "original". Only the Quran can be definitively traced back to Muhammad's statements as he made them to his followers 14-15 centuries, ago, since they were written down at that time and those original transcriptions still exist, today. This is the basis for the truth of Islam and in the mind of a Muslim, it cannot be denied. If you wish to find the same concrete evidence in Christianity, then there is nothing to discuss or debate. Faith and proof are mutually exclusive. People living in the present day do not have the benefit of first hand knowledge of proof that existed hundreds/thousands of years ago. Muslims, Christians, and Jews try to tell each other they have proof when they clearly do not accept each other's historical basis. This is the only self evidency of religion in the world, today. Btw, my comments here do not reflect a personal bias or belief in any particular faith that I have. In particular, I am not qualified to make statements of fact regarding any religion. I can only repeat what I see other people say and write. I have no proof of any sort whatsoever. Edited by sdaignau - 25 July 2008 at 10:22am
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robin Senior Member Joined: 17 May 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 595	Posted: 25 July 2008 at 10:53pm
	*Originally posted by minuteman* robin, would you believe the bible OT or NT? Which one? And the changes are to be shown made into OT or NT? Have we to prove that the NT is different to the bible OT? Or we have to show that OT is different to NT. I believe that they are just one testament to the unfolding wll of God! Since you do not believe in Quran, then there is no Moses too. And no Torah. So how you will prove the truth of Moses and Torah? Please tell. You will use history or some other book of God? I do not believe that the Quran is inspired of God, that in no way effects the existance of Moses or other persons mentioned in the Bible! I believe that if there is no Muhammad and no Quran then there is no prophet in the world at all. Muhammad is super seal of all prophets of God. I did not say that Muhhamad did not exist, I just do not believe the he was God's prophet. He was a believer in a god but not the God of Jesus Christ! Moses told about the coming of Muhammad (Deut 18:18). But some one made changes in the bible and concealed that news. Moses told of the coming of a prophet like him. Jesus told of the coming of a prophet like him (Ahmad, parclete). But people concealed that too. So on what ground can you do any business if you deny the sacred book of the other party. Who will believe your book? Please tell. Thanks. Moses fortold the coming of one of his brothers a Jew, Jesus Christ!-robin
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robin Senior Member Joined: 17 May 2008 Online Status: Offline Posts: 595	Posted: 25 July 2008 at 11:02pm
	*Originally posted by sdaignau* Robin: Hi. Why are you even having this conversation (or any similar conversations in other posts on this site) if Islam's Quran and beliefs are unacceptable to you? I don't understand why you would even want to debate it. People who believe in Islam consider the Quran to be the only definite word of God on earth. Every other book of Abraham (or Abraham's figurative descendants) is a translation or copy that cannot be traced back to the "original". Only the Quran can be definitively traced back to Muhammad's statements as he made them to his followers 14-15 centuries, ago, since they were written down at that time and those original transcriptions still exist, today. This is the basis for the truth of Islam and in the mind of a Muslim, it cannot be denied. If you wish to find the same concrete evidence in Christianity, then there is nothing to discuss or debate. Faith and proof are mutually exclusive. People living in the present day do not have the benefit of first hand knowledge of proof that existed hundreds/thousands of years ago. Muslims, Christians, and Jews try to tell each other they have proof when they clearly do not accept each other's historical basis. This is the only self evidency of religion in the world, today. Btw, my comments here do not reflect a personal bias or belief in any particular faith that I have. In particular, I am not qualified to make statements of fact regarding any religion. I can only repeat what I see other people say and write. I have no proof of any sort whatsoever. The theme of this thread is “Does God beget? This I address using the Bible:- John 1:14 So the Word became flesh and resided among us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an only-begotten son from a father. . John 1:18 No man has seen God at any time; the only-begotten god* who is in the bosom [position] with the Father is the one that has explained him. *Jesus in Heaven John 3:16-18 “For God loved the world so much that he gave his only-begotten Son, in order that everyone exercising faith in him might not be destroyed but have everlasting life. ¹⁷ For God sent forth his Son into the world, not for him to judge the world, but for the world to be saved through him. ¹⁸ He that exercises faith in him is not to be judged. He that does not exercise faith has been judged already, because he has not exercised faith in the name of the only-begotten Son of God. 1 John 4:9 By this the love of God was made manifest in our case, because God sent forth his only-begotten Son into the world that we might gain life through him. So the Bible says Yes, God does beget! Whether in believe the Quran does not matter here, as the question is addressed to and about the Bible! See post one.
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