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Message Icon Topic: Does God beget ? Post Reply Post New Topic
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Israfil
 
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Quote Israfil Replybullet Posted: 18 September 2007 at 7:12pm

Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness above your companions" (See Psalm 45:6,7).

>>>The Person being spoken to is God and has His God. This could only be True of the incarnated Son and His Father.  The God Whose throne is forever and ever has His God<<<<

The above paragraph is an example of how ridiculously contradictory one can be when interpreting a confusing text. Just a basic example using one of God's attributes, let's say infinity. Since God is infinite, there is no such thing as a succession of infinities otherwise there would be a point of cessation (which otherwise would contradict the principle of infinity). Similarly, One God cannot have a god as this is merely a contradictory in terms. To say: The Person being spoken to is God and has His God. This could only be True of the incarnated Son and His Father.

The bold sentence implies that God is subordinate to himself (which was a mistake by early Christians proposing the Trinity as a doctrine). If Jesus was and truly is God he is not subordinate to himself, meaning, God cannot have unequal properties. Not only is this an error by Islamic standards but an error in Christian standards since you have implied that within God are qualities that are unequal and subordinate to other qualities. I would suggest learning the ancient language of Hebrew and Aramaic and Greek before you interpret such faulty language.

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Quote Jocko Replybullet Posted: 19 September 2007 at 12:22am

 

 Israfil,

       Even in the Old Testament some rather mysterious things about God are seen. For example, in the book of Zechariah we see the Jehovah of hosts sending the Jehovah of hosts. This amounts mysteriously to God sending God. This passage reveals Jehovah as both the Sender and the Sent One in Zechariah 2:8-11:

 "For thus says Jehovah of hosts, After the glory He sent Me against the nations who plunder you; for he who touches you touches the pupil of His eye. (v.8)

For I am now waving My hand over them, and they will be plunder for those who served them; and you will know that Jehovah of hosts has sent Me. (v.9)

Give a ringing shout and rejoice, O daughter of Zion, for now I am coming, and I will dwell in your midst, declares Jehovah. (v.10)

And many nations will join themselves to Jehovah in that day and will become My people; and I will dwell in your midst; and you will know that Jehovah of hosts has sent Me to you." (v.11)

 The speaker in verse 8 introduces Himself as God - "For thus says Jehovah of hosts ...,".  Yet Jehovah of hosts says that after the glory He has been sent by Jehovah to the nations which plunder Israel - "After the glory He has sent Me against the nations who plunder you ...". Those nations have touched the apple of God's eye.

Then in the next verse, on behalf of the plundered Israel, God says that He will wave His mighty hand over them - "For I am now waving My hand over them, and they will be a plunder..." But the strangest thing happens. The waver of the mighty hand is Jehovah God the speaker. Yet as a result Israel will know that the One waving the divine hand has been sent by Jehovah! " ... and they will be for plunder for those who serve them; and you will know that Jehovah of hosts has sent Me."

 Jehovah is not only the speaker and the waver of the mighty hand. Jehovah of hosts is the one who is sent by Jehovah of hosts.  We see God as the Sent One and God simultaneously as the Sender OF the Sent One.

In verse 10 Jehovah declares that He comes to dwell in the midst of Zion - "for now I am coming, and I will dwell in your midst, declares Jehovah".  But as a result of Jehovah dwelling in the midst of Zion they shall know that Jehovah God has sent Him. "And many nations will join themselves to Jehovah in that day and will become My people, and I will dwell in your midst, and you will know that Jehovah of hosts has sent Me to you."

  Therefore we see Jehovah as the Sent One and the Sender of the Sent One at the same time. This indicates something beyond normal limitation with the nature of God even in the Old Testament.

 Now we come to the Son on earth being sent by His Father. Though He is sent by the Father the Father comes with Him and in Him:

"And He Who sent Me is with Me; He has not left Me alone, for I always do the things that are pleasing to Him," (John 8:29)

 "Believe Me that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me, but if not believe Me because of the works themselves." (John 14:11)

The Lord Jesus would prefer that we simply believe that He is in the Father and the Father is in Him. But if this seems too much for us He wants us to believe it because of the works themselves He does which are clearly the works of God. And His words are the working of the Father within Him:

 "Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me? The words that I speak to you I do not speak from Myself, but the Father who abides in Me does His works." (John 14:10)

 I am so glad that God has had mercy on me to have the ability to believe that the Father is in the Son and the Son is in the Father.

 We should not scoff at the Triune God. To see and to know Christ is a divine revelation which God must grant to every man and woman:

 "And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled in those who are perishing, in whom the god of this age (the Devil) has blinded the thoughts of the unbelievers that the illumination of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, might not shine on them. For we do not preach ourselves but Christ Jesus as Lord, and ourselves as your slave for Jesus' sake. Because the God who said, Out of darkness light shall shine, is the One who shined in our hearts to illuminate the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ." ( 2 Cor. 4:3-6). 

  The spiritual battle is to remove the blinding veil over the hearts of the unbelievers in the Son of God that the light of revelation might freely shine into them to see Christ - the expression of the glory of God united with man.

   But not only to see that Christ is God the Son but to be brought into the divine life and share His experience of union with God - not as an object of worship, but as an extension and expansion of God mingled with humanity. This was the prayer of the Son:

"That they all may be one; even as You, Father are in Me and I in You, that they also may be in Us; that the world may believe that You have sent Me. And now the glory whoch You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, even as We are one; I in them, and You in Me, that they may be perfected into one, that the world may know that You have sent Me and have loved them even as You have loved Me." (John 17:21-23).

 The eternal purpose of God is to have sons who share His life and nature. This is what He cannot fail to obtain through the salvation of the Son of the Father. This prayer above cannot go unanswered. The New Jerusalem in eternity is the fulfillment of this request of the Son to the Father that believers be brought into oneness with the Triune God.

 

 



Edited by Jocko
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Jocko
 
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Quote Jocko Replybullet Posted: 20 September 2007 at 3:18am

 

    God created the universe expressly for the purpose of having sons of God. If God could not have sons I don't believe that the universe would even exist.

    Here are my reasons:

  1.) "Even as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world to be holy and without blemish before HIm in love, predestinating us unto SONSHIP (my emphasis) through Jesus Christ, according to the good pleasure of His will" (Eph. 1:4-5).

    This passage says that God chose some human beings unto SONSHIP before the foundation of the world. That means before the creation of the world. The word adoption is not the better translation of that word. It means literally "the place of a son".

  Anyway, SONSHIP - "the place of a son" was pre-destinated for some saved human beings "before the foundation of the world". THis strongly implies that first God had a good pleasure to obtain sons for Himself. And then based upon this plan He then laid the foundation of the world. He then created the universe.

 2.) I know Moslems want to ignore the Apostle Paul and do not regard his letters as Scripture. We Christians regard them as Scripture. But not only Ephesians 1:4-5 says this. The very prayer of Jesus in John 17 goes some way to confirm this:

   "Father, concerning that which You have given Me, I desire that they also may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory, which You have goven Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world." (John 17:24).

    The implication is strong here that the Son and the Father desire that many others would be where the Son is to behold His glory. And this glory He had before the creation of the universe, before the foundation of the world.

 We should not be superfiscial to think this merely means that these others may be in heaven with Jesus. To be with Jesus the Son where He is is to be in God Himself. It is to be mingled with God in an "organic union" of  interwoven living. The Son petitions the Father that that glory which He had before the foundation of the world His saved people would likewise enter.

 He is God-man by way of incarnation, death, and resurrection. They are God-men by way of salvation. He is the HEAD of the relationship. They are the Body of it. He is the object of worship as their Lord and Savior the incarnate redeeming God-man. They are His expansion, His encrease, His enlargment as His Body to express Him corporately.

 3.) We have seen God desired some to have SONSHIP before He created the world. We have seen that Christ desired that others be with Him in His divine glory which He had through the Father's love before the foundation of the world.

   Now in Revelation we see that God created all things for this plan:

 "You are worthy, our Lord and God, to receive the glory and the honor and the power, for You have created all things, and because of You will they were, and were created." (Revelation 4:11).

  Here the ancient angelic beings, the "elders" of the creation (v.10) say that all things were created by God because of His will. This does not mean that they merely were created because of His will-power. They were all created because God had a will, God had a plan, God had an eternal purpose.

 First God had a good pleasure to have sons. He had this plan. Then based upon this plan He created all things. He laid the foundation of the world that He might obtain many sons of God.

 Finally we see the satisfied Triune God in New Jerusalem happy that He has now obtained His sons:

 "And He said to me, They have come to pass. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. I will give to him who thirsts from the spring of the water of life freely.

He who overcomes will inherit these things, and I will be God to him, and he will be a son to Me" (Rev. 21:6,7).

 What more proof do we need that God begets sons? He is a spring of eternal life. He is a fountain of divine life. The thirsty for eternal and divine life can come to Him and drink. That means they can take the Triune God Himself into their being. And in taking God into them they become sons of God. They drink of the divine life of the uncreated Being for His glory and for their satisfaction.

  "You are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus" (Gal.3:26)

 



Edited by Jocko
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minuteman
 
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Quote minuteman Replybullet Posted: 20 September 2007 at 6:30am

 

 The term "son of God"  in spiritual sense is not objectionable. We need not say that God needed sons or all men are sons of God. We can easily say that all are creatures of God. Why to use a confusing term "son"?? The relation of son and father is known to every one. But in the case of Jesus, that relation is absent. Jesus is not the son of God. So it is better not to use the son terminology.

 Because that will be used to make a god out of a mere man. That terminology becomes all the more objectionable. God does not need anything. He does not need a son. A God in need is not a God indeed.

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Quote minuteman Replybullet Posted: 21 September 2007 at 12:13am

 

 I forgot to mention the love affair. God loved Jesus. Yes. Very good. That can be as an example of love from the father. But it all boils down to reality whether Jesus is the son or not. If he is not a literal son (as he is not) then that love affair should also be not  used to make Jesus the son of God. God does not beget in physical sense. Begetting in spiritual sense should always carry the word spiritual with it otherwise common people get misled.

When christians say Jesus is the son of God then they should say that Jesus is a spiritual son of God. When they say that Jesus is the begotten or the only begotten son of God then they should also say that Jesus is the spiritually begotten son of God. That will cause less confusion. Thanks.

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Israfil
 
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Quote Israfil Replybullet Posted: 21 September 2007 at 12:33am
Originally posted by minuteman

 

 I forgot to mention the love affair. God loved Jesus. Yes. Very good. That can be as an example of love from the father. But it all boils down to reality whether Jesus is the son or not. If he is not a literal son (as he is not) then that love affair should also be not  used to make Jesus the son of God. God does not beget in physical sense. Begetting in spiritual sense should always carry the word spiritual with it otherwise common people get misled.

When christians say Jesus is the son of God then they should say that Jesus is a spiritual son of God. When they say that Jesus is the begotten or the only begotten son of God then they should also say that Jesus is the spiritually begotten son of God. That will cause less confusion. Thanks.

Minuteman this is even more confusing than the Christian interpretation of the concept of Sonship. So you are saying Jesus is the "spiritually begotten Son of God?" How does God beget spiritually?

 

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Israfil
 
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Quote Israfil Replybullet Posted: 21 September 2007 at 12:41am

"God created the universe expressly for the purpose of having sons of God. If God could not have sons I don't believe that the universe would even exist"

Need I remind the Christians that God is incoporeal and therefore is indivisible. Unless we are specifically referring to God's "essence" how is God divisible ina hierarchy? Christians are continuously creating fallacies by saying that Jesus and God are one and that, one is subordinate to the other. Again, let me remind the crowd that, such beliefs are problematic since you would rank-order God's qualities.

I cannot blame Christians however since, the NT contradicts God's attribtues.

Jocko...If God needs something then its not God at all. Desire by necessity is a trait life forms have and if God is supposedly absent of all human traits then how does God need sons?

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Quote Israfil Replybullet Posted: 21 September 2007 at 12:52am

The concept of Trinity (in relation to the current subject):

The following is perhaps the best description of the Trinity and how God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are all equal (thus would not amount to subordinate qualities within God) I suggest the thread posters read it:

"The traditional account of identity, derived from Boethius, holds that things may be either generically, specifically, or numerically the same or different. Abelard accepts this account but finds it not sufficiently fine-grained to deal with the Trinity. The core of his theory of identity, as presented in his Theologia christiana, consists in four additional modes of identity: (1) essential sameness and difference; (2) numerical sameness and difference, which Abelard ties closely to essential sameness and difference, allowing a more fine-grained distinction than Boethius could allow; (3) sameness and difference in definition; (4) sameness and difference in property (in proprietate). Roughly, Abelard's account of essential and numerical sameness is intended to improve upon the identity-conditions for things in the world given by the traditional account; his account of sameness in definition is meant to supply identity-conditions for the features of things; and his account of sameness in property opens up the possibility of there being different identity-conditions for a single thing having several distinct features."

Now for the payoff. Abelard deploys his theory of identity to shed light on the Trinity as follows. The three Persons are essentially the same as one another, since they are all the same concrete thing (namely God). They differ from one another in definition, since what it is to be the Father is not the same as what it is to be the Son or what it is to be the Holy Spirit. The three Persons are numerically different from one another, for otherwise they would not be three, but they are not numerically different from God: if they were there would be three gods, not one. Moreover, each Person has properties that uniquely apply to it — unbegotten to the Father, begotten to the Son, and proceeding to the Holy Spirit — as well as properties that are distinctive of it, such as power for the Father, wisdom for the Son, and goodness for the Holy Spirit. The unique properties are unmixed in Abelard's technical sense, for the Persons differ from one another in their unique properties, and such properties do not apply to God; the distinctive properties are mixed, though, in that God is characterized by each (the powerful God is the wise God is the good God). Further than that, Abelard holds, human reason cannot go; but reason validates the analysis (strictly speaking only a “likeness” or analogy) as far as it can go.

From Stanford Encyclopedia http://plato.stanford.edu/entries/abelard/#7

 



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