Active TopicsActive Topics  Display List of Forum MembersMemberlist  CalendarCalendar  Search The ForumSearch  HelpHelp
  RegisterRegister  LoginLogin  Old ForumOld Forum  Twitter  Facebook
Advertisement:
         

Interfaith Dialogue
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Interfaith Dialogue
Message Icon Topic: Does God beget ? Post Reply Post New Topic
<< Prev Page  of 53 Next >>
Author Message
Israfil
 
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 08 September 2003
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 3984
Quote Israfil Replybullet Posted: 16 September 2007 at 10:18pm

I think Christians need to brush up on their Greek some more.

You guys (Christians) cannot tap dance around the fact that Jesus being both a human and God procreated himself through Mary, in accordance to "divine" scripture. Basically, God is a son of himself (which is utterly a contradiction in terminology).

IP IP Logged
Mauri
 
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 27 August 2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 143
Quote Mauri Replybullet Posted: 17 September 2007 at 12:28am

"Well, you didn't specify he would be verbally called by those literal titles.  You just indicated that he will fill those roles in the future.   But, you did indicate that he will be called (commissioned) to those titles (ranks).

I don't understand why you would say that he will never be addressed by the title of his position.  It's like saying that John Doe might accept a military commission of General, but no one is ever going to call him General."


I never said that Jesus will fulfill the role of "Eternal Father" or "Almighty God".  I said that Jesus will rule according to the Laws of Islam and will be a Muslim.  He will not rule as God, but God's servant.


I didn’t mean to imply that you did.  I was referring to this post of yours:

Jocko,

When was Jesus ever referred to as "Eternal Father" in the New Testament?  Besides that, when was he ever called "Wonderful Counselor", "Mighty God" or "Prince of Peace"? 
__________________
You said that Jesus would have a reign of peace.  Isn’t it quite possible that he will be recognized as “Wonderful Counselor” or “Prince of Peace”?   And, many people already call him “Mighty God”.



"Who do you think the child is that Isaiah mentions?"

According to the Jewish interpretation, the passage is referring to King Hezekiah, not the Messiah. 

According to Jewish interpretation, Jesus is not the Messiah.


Even if it did refer to Jesus, it would not mean that he is God.  As I showed in my post above, there were many names/titles in Hebrew which, if taken literally, would suggest a state of divinity in the person who holds such a name/title, but their meaning is not literal but allegorical.  Hezekiah, according to the Jewish interpretation, was the "Eternal Father" because God increased his life by 15 extra years (see Isaiah 38:5).  He is called the "Prince of Peace" because during his last years as King, there was peace (see 2 Chronicles 32:23).  None of these titles mean that Hezekiah was to be worshiped.  That would have been a great blasphemy in the eyes of the God of Israel.

Do you think that an extra 15 years is enough to make someone eternal?

IP IP Logged
Jocko
 
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 11 September 2007
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 179
Quote Jocko Replybullet Posted: 17 September 2007 at 4:41am
Originally posted by Israfil

I think Christians need to brush up on their Greek some more.

You guys (Christians) cannot tap dance around the fact that Jesus being both a human and God procreated himself through Mary, in accordance to "divine" scripture. Basically, God is a son of himself (which is utterly a contradiction in terminology).

   It is adnmitedly vey mysterious.  Even Paul who authored 13 or so of the New Testament books refered to the mystery of godliness.

   Eternal life does not simply mean a life which is in duration everlasting. Eternal life entails much more of a life which goes beyond usual limitations. God's eternal purpose is to dispense Himself into humanity. He does not simply give man some "things" like mercy, peace, and love. He actually gives Himself as the ZOE divine life to man. The result is that man lives God, man lives out from God, and God lives in man.

  To put it another way God's eternal plan is to be mingled with humanity.

 When two or more things are mingled together they are combined in such a way that they remain distinguuishable in the combination. In the Lord Jesus Christ we see the mingling of God and man. God and man are brought together in such a way that in the combination we see the distinct qualities of both man and God.

  Don't complain about my lack of Greek language skills. What I explain can be seen in English translations of the Greek New Testament:

 "Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in Me? The words that I say to you I do not speak from Myself, but the Father who abides in Me does His works" (John 14:19).

 There is the mutual enter indwelling of the Son in the Father and the Father in the Son. God and man are forevermore mingled together in the Lord Jesus Christ.

"Jesus said to him, Have I been so long a time with you, and you have not known Me Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how is it that you say, Show us the Father?" (John 14:9).

 The Father and the Son are mingled together. In the combination we bear witness that both God and man are in an organic union of oneness. And the purpose of God is to bring the saved into this union, not as an object of worship, but as those living in the realm of the mingling of divinity and humanity:

 "Yet a little while and the world beholds Me no longer, but you behold Me; because I live, you also shall live. In that day you will know that I am in My Father, and you in Me, and I in you" (John 14:19,20).

 The "little while" is the time that Jesus went away to the cross on Calvary to accomplish eternal redemption. He went away for three days to prepare a standing in God for man that where He is the believers also might be.

 He says that because He lives the redeemed shall also live. This seems perculiar. Should people live regardless of whether Jesus lives or not?  The living that Jesus speaks of is the living of God, the living in the sphere and realm of God and the living which is God living in man in a mingled way. Because He lives in resurrection it is possible for those who believe into Him to live also.

 The life in mingling with God is what the Apostle Paul called the life which is really life or the life which is life indeed - "that which is really life."

 "Laying away for themselves a good foundation as a treasure for the future, that they may lay hold on that which is really life" (1 Timothy 6:29).

  Have you not read that "In Him [the Word] was life and the life was the light of men" (John 1:4)?

 The Triune God is to be dispensed into man and lived out in man in a blended and mingled way. He is the uncreated eternal life.

  "Jesus said to him, I am the way and the reality and the life; no one comes to the Father except through Me" (John 14:6).

  No one comes to the Father does not mean no one comes to heaven. It means the destination is the Father Himself. That is Jesus the God-man is the living way into the living "place." The living "place" is the Divine Being of the Father. He is the uncreated eternal life for man to enter into through the one and only unique living way of Jesus the Son.

  For Paul to proclaim "For to me to live is Christ..." (Phil. 1:21) means that Paul, a saved man, now lives a mingled life in union with Jesus Christ.

 For Paul to write " ... and it is no longer I who live, but it is Christ who lives in me ..." (Gal. 2:20) means also that he lives a mingled and blended life with Jesus Christ.

 This is possible because God in the man Jesus Christ became a divine life giving Spirit in order to enter into man's being once man is forgiven and redeemed from his sins:

 "The last Adam became a life giving Spirit" (1 Cor. 15:45).

 The Triune God, the Father and Son and Holy Spirit has become embodied in Jesus and become a life giving Spirit to impart God Himself into man.

  It is as the life giving Spirit that the Father and the Son can come and make a living abode with those who love Jesus and keep His word:

 "Jesus answered and said to him, If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word, and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make an abode with him" (John 14:23).

  Therefore, God and man are mingled together in the Savior Jesus Christ. The Father and the Son mutually co-inhere One with the Other. And in God's salvation the divine "We" comes to live in the believers in Christ to make them living abodes in the Father's house.

  If such a reality were not possible - that is for God and man to dwell within one another, then Jesus says that He would have told us so:

 "In My Father's house there are many abodes; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I am coming again and will receive you to Myself, so that where I am you also may be." (John 14:2,3)

  This passage does not mean that Jesus went to heaven to take two thousand years to prepare mansions to live in. The place of the Father's house is the enlargement of the Body of Christ. The Father's house is the realm in which God and man are mingled together in an organic union. The Father's house is the living place where God and man dwell in union and mingling.

 Christ as God incarnate was in this place as the God-man. He then went to the cross of Calvary to prepare a way for we the sinners to be forgiven. Then having been justified and forgiven all of our sins we too can be where He is and be received unto Himself. That is we become the enlargement of the mingling of God and man.

 Do not complain about Greek language. And do not be discouraged that this is very mystical and divine. Christ is today the life giving Spirit (1 Cor. 15:45) ready to enter into us. He andthe Father are ready to come to make a living abode with us as the eternal and divine "We" (John 14:23).

 

I am a Christian Guest at this Moslem Forum - until otherwise informed. Hello!
IP IP Logged
Jocko
 
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 11 September 2007
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 179
Quote Jocko Replybullet Posted: 17 September 2007 at 3:51pm

 

 

 Now Islamispeace, you had a point about Hebrew names. I understand that many men had God indicators in their names.

 All of the positive figures of the Old Testament were shadows, symbols, and forerunners of the Messiah to come. Hezekiah for example was a wise counselor. But you know that he made a bad mistake. Instead of dying when God willed him to he asked for an extension of life.

 God granted him 15 years. Immediately after this blessing he boasted to the Babylonians about his treasures and the prophet warned him that this would cost his kingdom terrible trouble.

Hezekiah said that as long as there was prosperity in his time he didn't care what happened after him. So you see he failed to really be the Wonderful Counselor.

 All have sinned and come short of the glory of God. Only Christ Himself is the Amen and the Yes to all the promises of God in the Old Testament. He is the greater Moses. He is the greater Joshua. He is the greater David and the greater Solomon.

 Hezekiah was good. But he was not as good as Jesus Christ the Son of God. He was a wise counselor. But he fell short of being the Wonderful Counselor for in the end it was revealed that he only cared for his own legacy. Only Jesus Christ is absolute for the will of God.

 Only the Son of God - Jesus was well pleasing in every possible aspect to the Father. He lived not only for the Father and unto the Father. He lived the Father Himself in a mingled and blended way. He cared nothing for Himself. He wanted everything for the Father. So He is called Eternal Father and He is the real antitype of the all the types of the Old Testament.

 Something greater than David is here. Something greater than the temple is here. Something greater than Hezekiah is here. Christ alone is totally well pleasing to God though God had many servants.

 Can you see then that all these positively named people in the Old Testament were forerunners, symbols, prefigures, and types of the Son of God?

  They may have been good in many respects. But only the Son Christ was gloriously perfect and qualified to take away the sin of the world through the offering of Himself to God.

 

 

 

 

I am a Christian Guest at this Moslem Forum - until otherwise informed. Hello!
IP IP Logged
islamispeace
 Islam
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 01 November 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2253
Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 18 September 2007 at 1:10pm
"You said that Jesus would have a reign of peace.  Isn’t it quite possible that he will be recognized as “Wonderful Counselor” or “Prince of Peace”?   And, many people already call him “Mighty God”."

Not according to the Islamic viewpoint.  There is nothing in the Hadiths which suggest that he would be known by such titles.  And he certainly would not be known as "Mighty God" because Muslims do not apply titles which belong only to God to a mere man.  Apparently, it was commonplace in the Old Testament.

"According to Jewish interpretation, Jesus is not the Messiah."

Irrelevant because they believe that Isaiah 9:6 was not a reference to the Messiah.  Neither was the passage about "Emmanuel".

"Do you think that an extra 15 years is enough to make someone eternal?"

According to the Jewish interpretation, it is.  It certainly makes more sense than to apply this title to Jesus, who lived a mere ~30 years and was then allegedly crucified.  The only way to apply this passage to Jesus is through a self-fulfilling prophecy by claiming that "well, we call him 'Mighty God' so he fulfilled the prophecy."  The problem is that he did not fulfill any of the conditions, nor did he ever refer to himself with such titles.  But as I said, even if he was, is or will be referred by such titles, it does not make him God because many Biblical figures had similar names, which if taken literally, would suggest a state of divinity. 
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

IP IP Logged
islamispeace
 Islam
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 01 November 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2253
Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 18 September 2007 at 2:15pm
"The many verses that I did refer to should not be discarded so easily. How can you say the Son is not called God in the NT in the light of what Hebrews 1:7 says?

 "But of the Son, Your throne, O God is forever and ever ...""

You know, Christianity is the only religion I know of whose followers misquote their own scripture.  Hebrews 1:7 is a direct quote from Psalm 45:6-7, which says:

"Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever;
       a scepter of justice will be the scepter of your kingdom."

Obviously, this prayer from Psalm is a reference to God (who is called Father by Jesus himself!) not to Jesus (pbuh).  Paul, the author of Hebrews, quoted Psalm 45 out of context, making this verse into a reference to Jesus.  Is it just coincidence that the Jesus of the New Testament always refers to God as "Father" but never himself?  How than can he be called "Eternal Father"? 

"Here is a New Testament reference to both the Son and the Son as "O God"/ Only by rejecting the New Testament as God's oracles can the Moslem possibly say this has no relation to Isaiah 9:6."

The verse is actually from the Old Testament.  Paul simply twisted its meaning. 

By the way, the word is pronounced M-U-S-L-I-M, not "Moslem". 

"There is another problem. Isaiah's prophecy did not say that specifically "in the document of the New Testament to come, He shall be called ...". He just said that He shall be called such and such. Saying that one could not find the quotation of this calling in the New Testament document does not prove that He was not called such things.  Besides, I showed instances where it is virtually true that the man Jesus is believed and called God incarnate."

So what does prove that he was called such things?  Verses from Psalm which do not even refer to the Messiah?  I think not.

"The prophecy of Isaiah also does not give a specific time table as to when Christ will be called this or that. His kingdom, Isaiah says will have no end. So if the duration of His kingdom is eternity at best one could only say that they have not yet heard the Son be called this or that. That does not prove that the calling will never take place."

This applies to Hezekiah because his reign brought an end to idolatry and also brought peace to the kingdom, which would last beyond his death.  Notice also that in Isaiah 9:7, Isaiah says:

"Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end.
He will reign on David's throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever. The zeal of the LORD Almighty will accomplish this."

Now, when we read Isaiah 37:30-32, it says:

"30 "This will be the sign for you, O Hezekiah: This year you will eat what grows by itself, and the second year what springs from that.
But in the third year sow and reap, plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
31 Once more a remnant of the house of Judah will take root below and bear fruit above. 32 For out of Jerusalem will come a remnant, and out of Mount Zion a band of survivors.  The zeal of the LORD Almighty will accomplish this."

This is more evidence that Isaiah 9 was not referring to the Messiah, but to Hezekiah. 

But, the important point is that even if Jesus was or is referred to by such titles, does it mean that he is God?  No at all.  Of course, it is clear that the passage in Isaiah is not a reference to him.

"Actually, since at least some of the passages I showed demonstrate the New Testament designation of Christ the Son as God, we do not have to wait to eternity to hear Him be called Mighty God. God is the only one Mighty God and the Son is addressed as "O God" in Hebrews chapter one and doubting Thomas acknowledged the resurrected Son as his God."

Hebrews took that verse from Psalm, which is not a reference to the Messiah. 

"Now we come to the complaint about Jesus not being called Emmanual. For those of us who do not reject the New Testament as the oracles of God it is quite enough that the apostle Matthew explains to us that the apostle explains to us under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit - "Now all this has happened sp that what was spoken by the Lord through the prophet might be fulfilled, saying, 'Behold, the virgin shall be with child and shall bear a son, and they shall call His name Emmanuel[ which is translated God with us' (Matt. 1:22,23)."

Another self-fulfilling prophecy. Just because Matthew says that the "sign of Emmanuel" was fulfilled in Jesus does not mean that it was, nor does it take into account the actual meaning of the passage in question.  The passage concerns important events during the reign of King Ahaz.  Let us look at the details of the passage:

"10 Again the LORD spoke to Ahaz, 11 "Ask the LORD your God for a sign, whether in the deepest depths or in the highest heights."

 12 But Ahaz said, "I will not ask; I will not put the LORD to the test."

 13 Then Isaiah said, "Hear now, you house of David! Is it not enough to try the patience of men? Will you try the patience of my God also? 14 Therefore the Lord himself will give you [c] a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and [d] will call him Immanuel. [e] 15 He will eat curds and honey when he knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right. 16 But before the boy knows enough to reject the wrong and choose the right, the land of the two kings you dread will be laid waste. 17 The LORD will bring on you and on your people and on the house of your father a time unlike any since Ephraim broke away from Judah—he will bring the king of Assyria.""

Some important points to make here are that the verses from Isaiah 7 say that the boy "Emmanuel" would initially not know right from wrong (as any young child would).  Christians believe that Jesus was perfect (he would have to be since he is God to them) and certainly would know right from wrong from the moment he was born.  Obviously, then, Isaiah 7 is either a failed prophecy or it is not a reference to him.  Furthermore, Isaiah 7 says that before Emmanuel is able to tell right from wrong, the two kings which Ahaz was fighting against and was fearful of would be destroyed.  If this is a reference to Jesus, who would come some 700 years later, it would not be a reassuring prophecy to Ahaz, who needed help immediately.  Therefore, it is clear that the "sign of Emmanuel" was not a reference to the Messiah.  But, as I have emphasized over and over again, just having a name or title which means something divine, does not make the holder of the name or title "divine".  Jehu means "Yaheweh is He", but we all know that Jehu (both the prophet and the king) was not "Yahweh".

"This word from the Apostle Matthew is authoritative enough. We need no more of an explanation that Jesus is indeed "God with us." The Bible says so. And Matthew does not need to sit at the feet of a Moslem to be better educated about the matter."

It is not even a matter of faith now.  Clearly, our Christian friend does not like to read each verse in its context.  He simply chooses to hang on to every word of the author of the Gospel of Matthew (which is the only Gospel which makes the claim that Isaiah 7 was fulfilled in Jesus) rather than to discern the real meaning by simply reading and understanding the whole story.

 In fact Jesus Himself teaches that He is indeed that Old Testament God come to earth in the form of a man in Matthew 23:

 "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I desired to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not!" (Matthew 23:37)

 The footnote of the Recovery Version says:

 It was always God Himself who cared for Jerusalem, as a bird flutters over her young (Isa. 31:5; Deut. 32:11-12). Hence, when Jesus said, "I desired to gather your children together the way a hen gathers her brood under her wings." He indicated that He was God Himself.

  So in Matthew 23:37 Jesus is indeed "God with us" lamenting over Jerusalem's coming rejection of her Messiah and incarnate God - the Son Jesus Christ."

How sad that Christians need a footnote to tell them the real meaning of what Jesus was saying.  It does not go unnoticed that Jesus never says this himself. 

"I think it is also significant for the subject of God with us that Matthew closes with this passage:

"And behold, I am with you all the days until the consummation of the age." (Matt. 28:20)."

If one reads Isaiah 7 in context, it should become clear that there is no reference to the Messiah.  Obviously, the author of Matthew did not do so.  Apparently, the other Gospel authors did not see any link between Isaiah 7 and Jesus.  


"Now because the Moslem rejects the New Testament they substitute other ideas which they prefer to believe. It was said that Islamic sacred writings say Jesus will reign in for forty years and then die a natural death."

We are not talking about the Islamic viewpoint.  It was Mauri who brought that topic into this thread.  


"Furthermore, I can't believe that after His crucifixion and resurrection Jesus would die a natural death. Not in the New Testament. Maybe in the Quran."

Maybe you should read the Holy Quran.  It says that Jesus (pbuh) was not crucified, so he never really died. 

"That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of Allah";- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not:-" (An-Nisa:157)

Now, since all men must die at least once, Jesus (pbuh) will die after he returns.

Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

IP IP Logged
islamispeace
 Islam
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 01 November 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2253
Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 18 September 2007 at 2:28pm
"Hezekiah for example was a wise counselor. But you know that he made a bad mistake. Instead of dying when God willed him to he asked for an extension of life.  God granted him 15 years. Immediately after this blessing he boasted to the Babylonians about his treasures and the prophet warned him that this would cost his kingdom terrible trouble.

Hezekiah said that as long as there was prosperity in his time he didn't care what happened after him. So you see he failed to really be the Wonderful Counselor."

This is all well and good, but as we have seen, the passages in question point to only one person, and that is Hezekiah, not the Messiah.

"All have sinned and come short of the glory of God. Only Christ Himself is the Amen and the Yes to all the promises of God in the Old Testament. He is the greater Moses. He is the greater Joshua. He is the greater David and the greater Solomon."

Not if you believe that Isaiah 7 was making a reference to Jesus.  Jesus would have known right from wrong from the moment of his birth (if he was indeed perfect), but Isaiah 7 says that "Emmanuel" would not know right from wrong until a certain time. 

Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

IP IP Logged
Jocko
 
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 11 September 2007
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 179
Quote Jocko Replybullet Posted: 18 September 2007 at 5:19pm

 

 Islamispeace,

You know, Christianity is the only religion I know of whose followers misquote their own scripture.  Hebrews 1:7 is a direct quote from Psalm 45:6-7, which says:

 You, Islamispeace, failed to understand that if the writer of the book of Hebrews says that the verses refers to Christ that is the end of the matter. We Christians do no regard the New Testament as an error prone and faulty commentary on the Hebrew Bible. We receive it as the oracles of God like Genesis or Exodus.

 You also failed to take note of what the both the Psalm and Hebrews say:

 "Your throne, O God is forever and ever ... Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness above your companions" (See Psalm 45:6,7).

 The Person being spoken to is God and has His God. This could only be True of the incarnated Son and His Father.  The God Whose throne is forever and ever has His God - "Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You ...".

Furthermore the Psalm depicts this One addressed as God with companions. As a man the Son has human companions. They also serve and obey God. However, they do not occupy the unique position as the King in His kingdom. Therefore He is anointed with the oil of gladness above His companions.

As a man Jesus had the 12 disciples as His companions. They too were men. Yet He is God become a man. So He is of them yet anointed with a special joy above all of them.

This is the utterance of the very Psalm itself.

Hebrews 1:7 is a direct quote from Psalm 45:6-7, which says:

 Which says "Therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of gladness above your companions."  And Hebrews 1:9 says "You [the One addressed as O God] have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness; therefore God, Your God, has anointed You with the oil of exultant joy above your partners."

  This is therefore a Man Who is God and has His God and loves righteousness to the point that His God has anointed Him with joy above His other human companions in life and partners in His kingdom. All this refers to God the Son, the Man, the God-man Jesus Christ.

 Then you say - Paul simply twisted its meaning. 

  No he did not. Under the inspiration and revelation of the Holy Spirit the writer of Hebrews quite faithfully showed us who really are in submission that the passage points to Christ.

 You write concerning Jesus being Emmanuel - God with us:

 Another self-fulfilling prophecy. Just because Matthew says that the "sign of Emmanuel" was fulfilled in Jesus does not mean that it was,

  Here we simply have a fundamental departure in each of our understandings of the nature of the Bible.  The New Testament is the Word of God - period. We do not regard it as a error filled commentary on the Old Testament. We regard it as God's speaking.

 But Christ said that we shall know them by their fruits. Neither Ahaz or Hezekiah or David or Solomon attained to the level of the glory of Jesus. They in their own ways were pointers and types leading up to the coming of the Son.

Take for example Jonah. He was a type of Christ Who was three days in the grace as Jonah was three days in the belly of a great fish. Jonah pointed to the coming Son of God. Therefore Jesus taught:

"For just as Jonah was in the belly of the great fish three days and three nights, so will the Son of Man be in the heart of the earth three days and three nights."

 Jesus is the greater Jonah. He is also the greater Hezekiah and the greater Ahaz. Jesus the Son of God said "The queen of the south will rise up in the judgment with this generation and will condemn it, because she came from the ends of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon, and behold, something more than Solomon is here." (Matt.12:42).

  It is losing case for you to insist that this or that Old Testament person was the sole point of these prophetic utterances. They were progressive pointers leading up to the Son of God - David, Solomon, Hezekiah, Jonah. even the very Temple itself:

"Destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up. But He spoke of the temple of His body. " (John 2:20,21).

This Man was the dwelling place of God on the earth at that time and God LIVED within Him as in a human temple. So He tells us "But I say to you that something greater than the temple is here." (Matt.12:6).

  Islamispeace, you will repeat again and again your tactic of saying "Oh this is just speaking about Ahaz." Or "Oh, this is just talking about Hezekiah." Or "Oh, this is just talking about Solomon or David or one of the other kings of Judah or Israel."

You do not grasp that it is THEY who point to Christ the Son. - "God, having spoken of old in many portions and in many ways to the fathers in the prophets, has at the last of these days spoken to us in the Son, whom also He appointed Heir of all things, through Whom also He made the universe ... " (Hebrews 1:1)

"For as many promises of God as there are, in Him is the Yes, therefore also through Him is the Amen to God ..." (2 Cor. 1:20).

 Then Islamis peace writes :

How sad that Christians need a footnote to tell them the real meaning of what Jesus was saying.  It does not go unnoticed that Jesus never says this himself. 

  Rather how comical that your sadness reminds me of the tears of a crocodile. You needn't feel sorry for us. It is quite wonderful that a footenote could enlighten the student of the New Testament concerning its significance. We learn from one another. This is Christians fellowship. Perhaps no Quran's have any footnotes in them. But if there were I would not consider it a sad affair that a teacher could pass on to others some important point.

 Actually, it is quite obvious that for Jesus to lament over Jesusalem in that way that He is God incarnate. Before He was born, when they were killing the prophets and stoning those sent to Jesuralem God desired to collect His naughty children like a mother bird. Now God comes as a Man and has the same tender care.

  Save your sympathy. We're doing quite Okay to correctly understand Matthew 23:37 this way.

  Concerning insisting that the details of Isaiah 7 or Isaiah 9 have only contemporary significance goes too far with an idea that does have some truth. It is not hard to see that there was some contemporary significance to this prophetic utterances.

 But think again reader. They could not be entirely related to those contemporary people. There is NO reason to call Hezekiah the Eternal Father. That is to call Hezekiah God Himself for there forever is only one Divine Father in the Bible Who is eternal - Jehovah God. So the prophecy must point beyond him. It points to this One of Whom the Apostle John wrote:

 "No one has ever seen God; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared Him." (John 1:18)

 Jesus, fully manifested the Divine Father. Jesus declared Him by expressing Him. To see Jesus was to see the Father. He defined God and explained God. His whole being expressed God's divine attributes within His glorious human virtues.

The Word Who was with God and was God became flesh and tabernacled among us. (John 1:1,14).  It is no wonder that His first title in Isaiah is Wonderful. Whatever is Wonderful is full of wonder. It is not easy to comprehend how God and man could be blended together in a mingled way. But this is Jesus Christ.

 He is the universal union, mingling, and blending of divinity and humanity.

 

 

 



Edited by Jocko
I am a Christian Guest at this Moslem Forum - until otherwise informed. Hello!
IP IP Logged
<< Prev Page  of 53 Next >>
Post Reply Post New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

Disclaimer:
The opinions expressed herein contain positions and viewpoints that are not necessarily those of IslamiCity. This forum is offered to stimulate dialogue and discussion in our continuing mission of being an educational organization.
If there is any issue with any of the postings please email to icforum at islamicity.com or if you are a forum's member you can use the report button.

Note: The 99 names of Allah avatars are courtesy of www.arthafez.com

Advertisement:



Sponsored by:
Islamicity Membership Program:
IslamiCity Donation Program  http://www.islamicity.com/Donate
IslamiCity Arabic eLearning http://www.islamiCity.com/ArabAcademy
Complete Domain & Hosting Solutions www.icDomain.com
Home for Muslim Tunes www.icTunes.com
Islamic Video Collections www.islamiTV.com
IslamiCity Marriage Site www.icMarriage.com