Active TopicsActive Topics  Display List of Forum MembersMemberlist  CalendarCalendar  Search The ForumSearch  HelpHelp
  RegisterRegister  LoginLogin  Old ForumOld Forum  Twitter  Facebook
Advertisement:
         

Interfaith Dialogue
 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Religion - Islam : Interfaith Dialogue
Message Icon Topic: Does God beget ? Post Reply Post New Topic
<< Prev Page  of 53 Next >>
Author Message
Jocko
 
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 11 September 2007
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 179
Quote Jocko Replybullet Posted: 16 September 2007 at 12:38am

 

  Many of us who enjoy Christ in the new covenant age call Him these names and more. My calling of Jesus the Mighty God and the Eternal Father qualify because I believe Isaiah's prophecy.

  Perhaps you don't count our calling Christ these names and more as important and you want to see quotations in the pages of the New Testament. Well I don't think it is necessary to show you in the pages of the New Testament explicit references. But I will offer some supporting evidence:

"Philip said to Him, Lord, show us the Father and it is sufficient for us. Jesus said to him, Have I been so long a time with you, and you have not known Me, Philip?" (John 14:9)

  The Father and the Son are so mutually coinherant within one another that they cannot be separated. Philip asks to see the Father. Jesus says " and you have not known Me, Philip?"

 Jesus could have gone on and said "Don't you remember Isaiah 9:6 Philip? Don't you remember that the Son given shall be called the Eternal Father?"

  In Romans 8:9-11 the Apostle Paul speaks of the indwelling of the Triune God within the Christians. There are a few titles which Paul uses interchangeably which amount to Jesus being God indwelling the Christians. And God is refered to as the Father throughout the NT.

 "But you are not in the flesh, but in the spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. And if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ he is not of Him. But if Christ is in you, though the body is dead because of sin, the spirit is life because of righteousness. And if the Spirit of the One who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, He who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who indwells you." (Rom. 8:9-11)

The Spirit of God equals the Spirit of Christ which equals Christ Himself in this passage. This virtually makes God and Christ two enterchangeable titles. Of course God is the Mighty God of which there is only one.

Though I cannot show an explicit reference to Jesus being called the Mighty God I can show Jesus saying that He is the Almighty:

"Behold, He comes with the clouds, and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him; and all the tribes of the land shall will mourn over Him. Yes, amen.

 I am the Alpha and the Omega, says the Lord God, He who is and who was and who is coming, the Almighty." (Rev. 1:7,8)

 I defintely understand that the Speaker of verse 8 Who says He is coming is the One in verse 7 which John sees coming with the clouds and being seen by the tribes in the land of Israel.

 In the Old Testament Jehovah God is called both the Might God and the Almighty. So by strong implication the child born Jesus is Jehovah God come in the flesh.

 Of course if there is any doubt that Jesus calls Himself the Almighty Alpha and Omega in Revelation 1:7,8 it is indisputable that He does so in Revelation 22:13:

 Behold, I come quickly, and My reward is with Me to render to each one as his work is. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End ... I Jesus have sent My angel to teastify to you these things for the churches ..." (See. Rev. 22:12-16)

 IF you do not want to call Jesus the Mighty God then that does not nullify the prophecy. Many of us call Him the Mighty God if you do not. We fulfill the prophecy that He shall be called that.

 And the disciple Thomas refered to Jesus as his Lord and God after he saw the proof of His resurrection:

 "Thomas answered and said to Him. My Lord and my God!

      Jesus said to him, Because you have seen Me you have believed. Blessed are those who have not seen and have believed." (John 20:28,29)

  It may not say Mighty God there in that passage. However the Jews had only one Mighty One - Jehovah God - YHWH (Psalm 50:1) (. So I think this passage comes pretty close to the disciples calling the born child the Mighty God.

   The writer of the books of Hebrews also refers to the Son as God. By way of quoting the OT the writer teaches that the Son is God:

 'But of the Son, "Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, and the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of Your kingdom." '(Hebrews 1:8)

 This New Testament writer calls the Son God, if not explicitly Mighty God. By saying God it is understood that the Mighty God is meant.

  I don't think that we need to withold our love and adoration to the Son of God until we see an explicit example of Him being refered to as Isaiah 9:6 says.  We who have touched the reality of Christ fulfill the prophecy of Isaiah by worshipping Him according to Isaiah's prophecy.

  It is Jesus Himself Who teaches that He is in the Father and the Father is in Him and to see Him is to see the Father in John 14.

  It is Jesus Himself Who says that He and the Father will come to make an abode within the one who loves Him and keeps His word. So though there is distinction between Father and Son there is no separation:

 "Jesus answered and said to him, If anyone loves Me, he will keep My word, and My Father will love him, and We will come to him and make an abode with him." (John 14:23)

 To us into whom the Father and the Son as the divine "We" have come to make an abode within us, we can detect no experiencial difference between the Father and the Son. As Paul wrote in Romans 8:9-11, the Spirit of God, the Spirit of Christ, Christ Himself, and the Spirit of the One Who raised Jesus Christ from the dead, are all enterchangeable names of the same one indwelling Person in our hearts.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I am a Christian Guest at this Moslem Forum - until otherwise informed. Hello!
IP IP Logged
Mauri
 
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 27 August 2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 143
Quote Mauri Replybullet Posted: 16 September 2007 at 9:41am
Originally posted by islamispeace

Jocko,

When was Jesus ever referred to as "Eternal Father" in the New Testament?  Besides that, when was he ever called "Wonderful Counselor", "Mighty God" or "Prince of Peace"? 

According to your post at http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=10259&am p;PN=1
it will not happen until the reign of the Dajjal comes and Jesus descends and kills him. 

Imam Mahdi will be a leader of Muslims during the reign of the Dajjal.  Prophet Jesus (pbuh) will descend in Damascus, according to the Hadiths, will kill the Dajjal and assume the role of God's vicegerent on Earth.  He will rule according to the laws of Islam for 40 years, and then die a natural death.  During his rule, the world will be a very peaceful, God-fearing place.  After his death, mankind will eventually become degenerate once more.  Paganism, idolatry and all other manners of sinful behavior will become widespread.  Even the holy city of Mecca will be conquered and the Kaaba will be destroyed.  All Muslims will die (sort of like the Rapture), leaving only the unbelievers on Earth.  It is at this moment that the Day of Judgment will begin.  God will destroy all life, and resurrect it once more to face judgment.
IP IP Logged
islamispeace
 Islam
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 01 November 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2168
Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 16 September 2007 at 11:37am
Jocko,

It seems that you are simply trying to link Isaiah with Jesus, even though there is no such link.  You say that "Many of us who enjoy Christ in the new covenant age call Him these names and more. My calling of Jesus the Mighty God and the Eternal Father qualify because I believe Isaiah's prophecy."  This seems like a self-fulfilling prophecy.  You simply say that "well I call him that so the prophecy came true".  The problem is that no where in the New Testament is Jesus explicitly called by those names, although you attempted to show that by quoting some verses even though there is nothing concrete.  Never is Jesus referred to as "Wonderful Counselor" or "Almighty God" anywhere in the New Testament or in any non-Biblical sources.  He is either referred to as "Rabbi", "Teacher", or "Lord".  None of these titles is among the titles mentioned in Isaiah.  The conclusion, then, is that Isaiah does not refer to Jesus (pbuh).  The same can be said about the so-called prophecy of "Emmanuel".  Jesus was never referred to in such a manner.  Therefore, the prophecy either failed or it did not apply to him.

There are many names and titles used in the Old Testament whose meanings can be interpreted as being "divine", but they are not meant to be.  For instance, in 1 Chronicles 4:18, the daughter of Pharaoh is known by the name "Bithiah" which means "daughter of Yahweh".  In Isaiah 36:3, the administrator of Hezekiah's (to whom Isaiah 9:6 is believed to be referring to) palace is known as "Eliakim" which means "God rises".  In 1 Kings 16:12, a Hebrew prophet is known as "Jehu" which means "Yahweh is he".  Jehu was also the name of the King of Israel.  All of these names may be interpreted as being divine, but the people who were known by these names were certainly not considered divine.  If (and that is a big if), as you claim, Jesus was known by those titles, why are they taken to be literal, when clearly a name such as "Jehu" can also be taken to be literal?

Mauri, where in my post did I say that he will be called by such titles in my post?  This is an interpretation which you choose to make.  I do not believe that Jesus (pbuh) will be known by such titles.  Furthermore, if that is what you believe, then Isaiah is not making a reference to Jesu, because he does not allude to a second coming.


Edited by islamispeace
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

IP IP Logged
Mauri
 
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 27 August 2006
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 143
Quote Mauri Replybullet Posted: 16 September 2007 at 12:30pm
Islamispeace:  Mauri, where in my post did I say that he will be called by such titles in my post?  This is an interpretation which you choose to make.  I do not believe that Jesus (pbuh) will be known by such titles.  Furthermore, if that is what you believe, then Isaiah is not making a reference to Jesu, because he does not allude to a second coming.

Well, you didn't specify he would be verbally called by those literal titles.  You just indicated that he will fill those roles in the future.   But, you did indicate that he will be called (commissioned) to those titles (ranks).

I don't understand why you would say that he will never be addressed by the title of his position.  It's like saying that John Doe might accept a military commission of General, but no one is ever going to call him General.

You said to Jocko: It seems that you are simply trying to link Isaiah with Jesus, even though there is no such link.

Who do you think the child is that Isaiah mentions?

Jesus said:
Search the scriptures;  for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.  John 5:38


Edited by Mauri
IP IP Logged
islamispeace
 Islam
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 01 November 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2168
Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 16 September 2007 at 2:27pm
"Well, you didn't specify he would be verbally called by those literal titles.  You just indicated that he will fill those roles in the future.   But, you did indicate that he will be called (commissioned) to those titles (ranks).

I don't understand why you would say that he will never be addressed by the title of his position.  It's like saying that John Doe might accept a military commission of General, but no one is ever going to call him General."

I never said that Jesus will fulfill the role of "Eternal Father" or "Almighty God".  I said that Jesus will rule according to the Laws of Islam and will be a Muslim.  He will not rule as God, but God's servant.

"Who do you think the child is that Isaiah mentions?"

According to the Jewish interpretation, the passage is referring to King Hezekiah, not the Messiah.  Even if it did refer to Jesus, it would not mean that he is God.  As I showed in my post above, there were many names/titles in Hebrew which, if taken literally, would suggest a state of divinity in the person who holds such a name/title, but their meaning is not literal but allegorical.  Hezekiah, according to the Jewish interpretation, was the "Eternal Father" because God increased his life by 15 extra years (see Isaiah 38:5).  He is called the "Prince of Peace" because during his last years as King, there was peace (see 2 Chronicles 32:23).  None of these titles mean that Hezekiah was to be worshiped.  That would have been a great blasphemy in the eyes of the God of Israel.
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

IP IP Logged
buddyman
 
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 26 June 2007
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 295
Quote buddyman Replybullet Posted: 16 September 2007 at 2:29pm

Originally posted by islamispeace

"Well, you didn't specify he would be verbally called by those literal titles.  You just indicated that he will fill those roles in the future.   But, you did indicate that he will be called (commissioned) to those titles (ranks).

I don't understand why you would say that he will never be addressed by the title of his position.  It's like saying that John Doe might accept a military commission of General, but no one is ever going to call him General."

I never said that Jesus will fulfill the role of "Eternal Father" or "Almighty God".  I said that Jesus will rule according to the Laws of Islam and will be a Muslim.  He will not rule as God, but God's servant.

"Who do you think the child is that Isaiah mentions?"

According to the Jewish interpretation, the passage is referring to King Hezekiah, not the Messiah.  Even if it did refer to Jesus, it would not mean that he is God.  As I showed in my post above, there were many names/titles in Hebrew which, if taken literally, would suggest a state of divinity in the person who holds such a name/title, but their meaning is not literal but allegorical.  Hezekiah, according to the Jewish interpretation, was the "Eternal Father" because God increased his life by 15 extra years (see Isaiah 38:5).  He is called the "Prince of Peace" because during his last years as King, there was peace (see 2 Chronicles 32:23).  None of these titles mean that Hezekiah was to be worshiped.  That would have been a great blasphemy in the eyes of the God of Israel.

 

King Hezekiah is not called Emmanuel. King Hezekiah is not God.

Emmanuel means "God with us".

IP IP Logged
islamispeace
 Islam
Senior Member
Senior  Member
Avatar

Joined: 01 November 2005
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 2168
Quote islamispeace Replybullet Posted: 16 September 2007 at 2:43pm
"King Hezekiah is not called Emmanuel. King Hezekiah is not God.

Emmanuel means "God with us"."

That is a different passage from Isaiah.  The passage about the "Wonderful Counselor" is believed to be a reference to Hezekiah.  Again, the meanings of many names in the Bible could be interpreted to be literal.  Do you believe that the prophet Jehu was really Yahweh?

Also, the passage about "Emmanuel" was referring to the time of King Ahaz, not Hezekiah.  It was meant to be a sign of assurance to the King that God would save him and his nation from the kings of Syria and the northern kingdom of Israel.  If it was referring to Jesus, who would be born some 700 years later, most probably Ahaz would have been defeated.


Edited by islamispeace
Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for Allah, the Cherisher of the Worlds. (Surat al-Anaam: 162)

IP IP Logged
Jocko
 
Senior Member
Senior Member


Joined: 11 September 2007
Location: United States
Online Status: Offline
Posts: 179
Quote Jocko Replybullet Posted: 16 September 2007 at 7:50pm

 

    The general subject here is the begetting of sons by God. I will try to keep my responses related to that matter.

    Someone objected that nowhere in the New Testament could I show explicit callings of Jesus "Mighty God, Wonderful Counseloor, Prince of Peace, and Eternal Father."

    The many verses that I did refer to should not be discarded so easily. How can you say the Son is not called God in the NT in the light of what Hebrews 1:7 says?

 "But of the Son, Your throne, O God is forever and ever ..."

Here is a New Testament reference to both the Son and the Son as "O God"/ Only by rejecting the New Testament as God's oracles can the Moslem possibly say this has no relation to Isaiah 9:6.

 It is a weak excuse to point out that "O God" is not "Mighty God."

 There is another problem. Isaiah's prophecy did not say that specifically "in the document of the New Testament to come, He shall be called ...". He just said that He shall be called such and such. Saying that one could not find the quotation of this calling in the New Testament document does not prove that He was not called such things. Besides, I showed instances where it is virtually true that the man Jesus is believed and called God incarnate.

  The prophecy of Isaiah also does not give a specific time table as to when Christ will be called this or that. His kingdom, Isaiah says will have no end. So if the duration of His kingdom is eternity at best one could only say that they have not yet heard the Son be called this or that. That does not prove that the calling will never take place.

 Actually, since at least some of the passages I showed demonstrate the New Testament designation of Christ the Son as God, we do not have to wait to eternity to hear Him be called Mighty God. God is the only one Mighty God and the Son is addressed as "O God" in Hebrews chapter one and doubting Thomas acknowledged the resurrected Son as his God.  

 Now we come to the complaint about Jesus not being called Emmanual. For those of us who do not reject the New Testament as the oracles of God it is quite enough that the apostle Matthew explains to us that the apostle explains to us under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit - "Now all this has happened sp that what was spoken by the Lord through the prophet might be fulfilled, saying, 'Behold, the virgin shall be with child and shall bear a son, and they shall call His name Emmanuel[ which is translated God with us' (Matt. 1:22,23).

 This word from the Apostle Matthew is authoritative enough. We need no more of an explanation that Jesus is indeed "God with us." The Bible says so. And Matthew does not need to sit at the feet of a Moslem to be better educated about the matter.

 In fact Jesus Himself teaches that He is indeed that Old Testament God come to earth in the form of a man in Matthew 23:

 "Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I desired to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her brood under her wings, and you would not!" (Matthew 23:37)

 The footnote of the Recovery Version says:

 It was always God Himself who cared for Jerusalem, as a bird flutters over her young (Isa. 31:5; Deut. 32:11-12). Hence, when Jesus said, "I desired to gather your children together the way a hen gathers her brood under her wings." He indicated that He was God Himself.

  So in Matthew 23:37 Jesus is indeed "God with us" lamenting over Jerusalem's coming rejection of her Messiah and incarnate God - the Son Jesus Christ.

  I think it is also significant for the subject of God with us that Matthew closes with this passage:

"And behold, I am with you all the days until the consummation of the age." (Matt. 28:20).

 He is therefore Emmanuel - God with us, in chapter 23 and God with us all the days until the consummation of the age. Matthew, unlike Luke or Mark, does not conclude with the concept of Jesus going anywhere. Like the Gospel of John there is no indication that Jesus left His disciples. On one hand therefore He ascended to the right hand of God in heaven. And on the other hand He is still Emmanuel as God with us even today until the consummation of the age.

 Since God is immortal, for Jesus to teach that He is with us until the consummation of the age indicates that He too is immortal God.

 Now because the Moslem rejects the New Testament they substitute other ideas which they prefer to believe. It was said that Islamic sacred writings say Jesus will reign in for forty years and then die a natural death.

 The number forty in the Bible is usually reserved to indicate a time of trials and hardships. Forty days and nights Noah's ark road on the waters of the flood. Forty years in the wilderness the Hebrews suffered hardship before entering into the good land. Jesus fasted for forty days.

 There is nothing in the Bible about Jesus ruling for only forty years and then dying a natural death. And if there is peace during this time it is unlikely that the number 40 would be associated with something this positive. The teaching is not in the Bible so I don't receive it.

 Furthermore, I can't believe that after His crucifixion and resurrection Jesus would die a natural death. Not in the New Testament. Maybe in the Quran.

 But our New Testament has Jesus proclaiming after His resurrection that He will never die again. This was shown to the Apostle John in his Revelation:

" ... and He placed His right hand on me, saying, Do not fear; I am the First and the Last. And the living One, and I became dead, and behold, I am living forever and ever; and I have the keys of death and of Hades. (Rev. 1:17,18).

  After His resurrection on the third day, behold, He is living forever and ever. He has the keys of death and of Hades. He is eternally victorious over the realm of death. How then can we accept that He will reign for forty years and then die a natural death? There is no such idea in the New Testament.

     Why then do we need to wait to call Him Wonderful Counselor. Who could be more Wonderful than this Son of God Who has come off victorious from death and has the keys to release all of us from its grip. We do not need to legally wait until it is the proper moment to pour out our love for the Wonderful Counselor and the Mighty God. We need not be so legal and dogmatic. Now is the time for me to pour out my love in praises for this Son Who is given to us and is the Eternal Father Jehovah come as a man.

     If you wait to find the verse where Jesus is adoringly called Eternal Father and Wonderful Counselor it may be to late to call Him that when He returns physically to the earth.

    Since He is with us all the days until the consummation of the age and beyond into eternity, we can call Him all that He is worthy to be called.  I don't want to hold back my love for the Son by waiting around until someone shows me the exact quotation of Isaiah's calling in the document of the New Testament. He has proved that He is the Mighty God and the Eternal Father incarnated as the God-man Christ the Lord, victorious over the world and sin and death itself.

 

 

I am a Christian Guest at this Moslem Forum - until otherwise informed. Hello!
IP IP Logged
<< Prev Page  of 53 Next >>
Post Reply Post New Topic
Printable version Printable version

Forum Jump
You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot create polls in this forum
You cannot vote in polls in this forum

Disclaimer:
The opinions expressed herein contain positions and viewpoints that are not necessarily those of IslamiCity. This forum is offered to stimulate dialogue and discussion in our continuing mission of being an educational organization.
If there is any issue with any of the postings please email to icforum at islamicity.com or if you are a forum's member you can use the report button.

Note: The 99 names of Allah avatars are courtesy of www.arthafez.com

Advertisement:



Sponsored by:
Islamicity Membership Program:
IslamiCity Donation Program  http://www.islamicity.com/Donate
IslamiCity Arabic eLearning http://www.islamiCity.com/ArabAcademy
Complete Domain & Hosting Solutions www.icDomain.com
Home for Muslim Tunes www.icTunes.com
Islamic Video Collections www.islamiTV.com
IslamiCity Marriage Site www.icMarriage.com