IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : the Qur'an and peace http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum This is an XML content feed of; IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : General Discussion : the Qur'an and peace Sat, 25 May 2013 15:52:45 +0000 Sun, 28 Apr 2013 02:30:02 +0000 http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/tech/rss Web Wiz Forums 8.04 360 www.IslamiCity.com/forum/RSS_post_feed.asp?TID=24867 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_images/ICForum_Logo.gif http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum the Qur'an and peace : Originally posted by abuayisha W.S.,... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24867&PID=175706#175706 Author: Matt Browne
Subject: 24867
Posted: 28 April 2013 at 2:30am

Originally posted by abuayisha

W.S., I'm certainly not up for the task of addressing an entire list, which would require an essay, however I suggest for purposes of focus and clarity, that any "key message" or concerns of "constant denial" are taken one at a time in a thread other than "Quran and peace", and perhaps you'll get a more specific response to your question.  And Allah Knows Best.


It doesn't require an essay, in my opinion. Please have the courage to briefly comment on the most important items of this list. No one will think that you are a heretic. Or do you fear the wrath of fundamentalists?

]]> Sun, 28 Apr 2013 02:30:02 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24867&PID=175706#175706 the Qur'an and peace : Originally posted by W.S. Matt... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24867&PID=175705#175705 Author: Matt Browne
Subject: 24867
Posted: 28 April 2013 at 2:25am

Originally posted by W.S.

Matt Browne, I've read through this thread, including your list of key messages presented in Irshad Manji's two books, and I agree with them. I recently read her first book and I'm currently reading her second one. It is so very unfortunate that so few Muslims have the courage to speak out, instead of living in this constant denial and/or being silent because of fear.
Muslims! Especially you who've been such your whole lives: what do you think of Manji's key messages presented in Matt's list?! 


I'm glad to hear this. I learned so many positive things about Islam as well, especially in the second book. This book really gives me hope that humanity in all its diversity can evolve beyond greed and insults and war. Hope that some day in the future we will see respect, fairness and peace.



Edited by Matt Browne - 28 April 2013 at 2:31am]]> Sun, 28 Apr 2013 02:25:23 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24867&PID=175705#175705 the Qur'an and peace : Originally posted by RationalMatt,... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24867&PID=175704#175704 Author: Matt Browne
Subject: 24867
Posted: 28 April 2013 at 2:22am

Originally posted by Rational

Matt, are women and men equal?


Equal in what sense? They both have 46 chromosomes. On one chromosome there are differences.

Or do you mean equal rights? Then the answer is yes.
 
]]> Sun, 28 Apr 2013 02:22:01 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24867&PID=175704#175704 the Qur'an and peace : W.S., I'm certainly not... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24867&PID=175656#175656 Author: abuayisha
Subject: 24867
Posted: 26 April 2013 at 7:56am

W.S., I'm certainly not up for the task of addressing an entire list, which would require an essay, however I suggest for purposes of focus and clarity, that any "key message" or concerns of "constant denial" are taken one at a time in a thread other than "Quran and peace", and perhaps you'll get a more specific response to your question.  And Allah Knows Best.]]> Fri, 26 Apr 2013 07:56:23 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24867&PID=175656#175656 the Qur'an and peace : Matt Browne, I'veread... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24867&PID=175647#175647 Author: W.S.
Subject: 24867
Posted: 26 April 2013 at 1:57am

Matt Browne, I've read through this thread, including your list of key messages presented in Irshad Manji's two books, and I agree with them. I recently read her first book and I'm currently reading her second one. It is so very unfortunate that so few Muslims have the courage to speak out, instead of living in this constant denial and/or being silent because of fear.
Muslims! Especially you who've been such your whole lives: what do you think of Manji's key messages presented in Matt's list?! 
]]> Fri, 26 Apr 2013 01:57:27 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24867&PID=175647#175647 the Qur'an and peace : Matt, are women and men equal? ... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24867&PID=175606#175606 Author: Rational
Subject: 24867
Posted: 24 April 2013 at 2:27pm

Matt, are women and men equal?]]> Wed, 24 Apr 2013 14:27:36 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24867&PID=175606#175606 the Qur'an and peace : Abuayisha, thanks for admitting... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24867&PID=175587#175587 Author: Matt Browne
Subject: 24867
Posted: 24 April 2013 at 6:28am

Abuayisha, thanks for admitting that I'm not xenophobic. I had a feeling that none of my posted sentences ever indicated that. I love and appreciate diversity. I think having different cultures enriches humanity. And I endorse multiculturalism as long as it's based on tolerance and mutual respect.

Smile


Edited by Matt Browne - 24 April 2013 at 6:33am]]> Wed, 24 Apr 2013 06:28:50 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24867&PID=175587#175587 the Qur'an and peace : Originally posted by Matt... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24867&PID=175586#175586 Author: abuayisha
Subject: 24867
Posted: 24 April 2013 at 6:24am

Originally posted by Matt Browne


The list goes on and on.
 
Smile
]]> Wed, 24 Apr 2013 06:24:38 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24867&PID=175586#175586 the Qur'an and peace : Originally posted... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24867&PID=175578#175578 Author: Matt Browne
Subject: 24867
Posted: 24 April 2013 at 1:26am

Originally posted by Reepicheep

What we fear are muslims who feel their religion gives them the right to commit terrorist acts (for example, the two muslim brothers who attacked the Boston marathon, or the two muslims who were arrested in Canada yesterday, who were planning to blow up a train travelling from Toronto to New York.)

I would like to add that we should also fear

a) non-violent Muslims who support a political system based on the Quran and the Sunnah
b) non-violent Muslims who distort history and do not acknowledge Muslim cruelty and injustice of the past
c) non-violent Muslims who reject reform and do not acknowledge that there are problematic messages in the Quran and the Sunnah

Take a look at this:

Instances of problematic messages in the Bible:
Injustice: 1528
Cruelty and Violence: 1313
Intolerance: 699
Misogyny: 385
Homosexuality: 36

Instances of problematic messages in the Quran:
Injustice: 769
Intolerance: 536
Cruelty and Violence: 532
Misogyny: 68
Homosexuality: 4

Source:
http://skepticsannotatedbible.com
http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/index.htm



Edited by Matt Browne - 24 April 2013 at 6:30am]]> Wed, 24 Apr 2013 01:26:55 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24867&PID=175578#175578 the Qur'an and peace : Originally... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24867&PID=175576#175576 Author: Matt Browne
Subject: 24867
Posted: 24 April 2013 at 1:08am

Originally posted by abuayisha

Matt, interesting that you have mentioned witches, because while they were being burned and tortured the sharia you fear so much was living in peace with other faiths and translating books important to all of mankind.

You are distorting historical facts. While Christians burned and tortured heretics, Muslims had established an apartheid-type system called dhimmitude, based on the laws of the sharia (e.g. in Al-Andalus). As long as Christians and Jews didn't challenge their rulers, no one got hurt. Muslims tortured Muslims who didn't comply with the sharia laws. Muslims beheaded and stoned Muslim heretics, which is equally cruel as burning witches. You are right, at the time, there were also translation of books important to all of mankind. During segregation in the American South important books were also translated into other languages. This doesn't make having second-class citizens any better.

The difference between today's mainstream Christians and mainstream Muslims is that Christians acknowledge the cruelty of the past, while Muslims call Islamic Iberia a tolerant system. Irshad Manji knows that it wasn't, but then she isn't a mainstream Muslim.
Originally posted by abuayisha

Notwithstanding your xenophobia, your society is open and multicultural, therefore "our society" includes Muslims (no matter how much that scares you).

Decent peace-loving Muslims do not resort to using insults. Xenophobia is an irrational or unreasoned fear of that which is perceived to be foreign or strange. Show me one example, Abuayisha, of something I wrote that points to xenophobia. Just one example. Well, you won't find a single sentence. You are simply making unfounded accusations, when you run out of arguments.
Originally posted by abuayisha

And if you really understood sharia you would know your touted values and your western society could never be "sharia free" because the very bases of sharia upholds a persons life, religion and wealth - there shall be no harm.

Believe me, I really understand the sharia. There are parts in it that are harmless. But there are other parts in it that resemble the principles of totalitarian ideologies such as Stalinism, Maoism and Nazism. These parts of the sharia blatantly contradict universal human rights and the content of the constitutions of our Western countries. Here are a few examples

1) A Muslim who becomes a Christian or an atheist gets the death penalty.
2) A Muslim and non-Muslim who commits blasphemy must be tortured or killed.
3) The People of the Book are second-class citizens.
4) People who commit adultery are to be stoned to death.
5) Muslim men can socialize with other people, but Muslim women can't.
6) A Muslim woman's testimony is worth less than that of a Muslim man.
7) A non-Muslim's testimony is worth less than that of a Muslim man.
8) Wife beating is not a crime, when the husband has a good reason for it.
(...)
The list goes on and on.


Edited by Matt Browne - 24 April 2013 at 1:31am]]> Wed, 24 Apr 2013 01:08:47 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24867&PID=175576#175576 the Qur'an and peace : Originally posted by Reepicheep What... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24867&PID=175574#175574 Author: abuayisha
Subject: 24867
Posted: 23 April 2013 at 8:31pm

Originally posted by Reepicheep

  
What we fear are muslims who feel their religion gives them the right to commit terrorist acts
 
Indeed this is a troubling phenomenon, and Muslims throughout the west must learn the "narrative" these crazy ideologues spout, counter it, and ultimately, as New York's Mayor Bloomberg has said; 'when you see something say something'.  These guys need to brought to the attention of law enforcement whenever an individual's rhetoric has crossed the line.  I think one of the biggest challenges Muslims in the west face is wrapping their heads around the sad reality that one of their own actually do committ these heinous crimes.  Unfortuantely too much energy is wasted on conspriacy thinking. "sigh"
]]> Tue, 23 Apr 2013 20:31:52 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24867&PID=175574#175574 the Qur'an and peace : abuayisha wrote:it is little wonder... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24867&PID=175566#175566 Author: Reepicheep
Subject: 24867
Posted: 23 April 2013 at 2:53pm

abuayisha wrote:  it is little wonder so many Muslims are living in "your" countries. Your values and ours are basically the same.
 
Abuayisha, it appears that you share Irshad Manji's views on life in the west (i.e., you both have no real complaints about the Canadian and US legal systems), so neither of you are the type of muslims that us kuffar fear. 
 
What we fear are muslims who feel their religion gives them the right to commit terrorist acts (for example, the two muslim brothers who attacked the Boston marathon, or the two muslims who were arrested in Canada yesterday, who were planning to blow up a train travelling from Toronto to New York.)
 
In any case, I think we all agree that muslims who live in Canada and the USA have more religious freedom than muslims who live in any muslim majority country anywhere else in the world.


Edited by Reepicheep - 23 April 2013 at 6:27pm]]> Tue, 23 Apr 2013 14:53:31 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24867&PID=175566#175566 the Qur'an and peace : Abuayisha," Well, pretty... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24867&PID=175561#175561 Author: Caringheart
Subject: 24867
Posted: 23 April 2013 at 10:14am

Abuayisha,
"Well, pretty much what I thought; an irrational fear - " ... I may slip at some point and be overheard to express an opinion, I could end up at worst dead..."

Why do you deny that this actually happens in Islamic states?

Salaam,
Caringheart
]]> Tue, 23 Apr 2013 10:14:21 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24867&PID=175561#175561 the Qur'an and peace : Rational discussion...to quote... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24867&PID=175560#175560 Author: Caringheart
Subject: 24867
Posted: 23 April 2013 at 10:13am

Rational discussion...
to quote Matt;
"Within the Muslim world we see a struggle between these two kinds of interpretations. Ignoring the troubling interpretations would be irresponsible. Their existence is a fact."

"It's not just a problem of a tiny violent minority. The Quran needs an interpretation that works in the 21st century. Islam has to go through the same painful process as Christianity did, going from burning witches and scientists to supporting the declaration of universal human rights."




]]> Tue, 23 Apr 2013 10:13:12 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24867&PID=175560#175560 the Qur'an and peace : Originally posted by abuayisha Well,... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24867&PID=175559#175559 Author: Caringheart
Subject: 24867
Posted: 23 April 2013 at 10:05am

Originally posted by abuayisha

Well, pretty much what I thought; an irrational fear - " ... I may slip at some point and be overheard to express an opinion, I could end up at worst dead..."
 
In America about ten thousand people are killed each year by drunk drivers.  How many do you think die as a result of "overheard to express an opinion"?
 
Islamophobia.

Greetings abuayisha,
Yes... in the United States... a land of freedom and democracy and equal treatment of all...
How much longer will the United States remain that way?

Interesting how you honed in on one statement...
Did you completely ignore the rationality of the rest of what I wrote?
(This is why you spend so little time in interfaith discussion.)

Would you be content if, because of your individual beliefs and regardless of the fact that you were a good law abiding citizen, you were to be treated as a subjugated person?  Even when you behaved as every other God fearing person behaved?
Do you live in the United States where you are equal with all others regardless of the fact that you believe in Muhammad and his teachings, which may disagree with others, even of those who rule in the country?

Salaam,
Caringheart


Edited by Caringheart - 23 April 2013 at 10:06am]]> Tue, 23 Apr 2013 10:05:01 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24867&PID=175559#175559 the Qur'an and peace : Matt, interesting that you... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24867&PID=175555#175555 Author: abuayisha
Subject: 24867
Posted: 23 April 2013 at 6:35am

Matt, interesting that you have mentioned witches, because while they were being burned and tortured the sharia you fear so much was living in peace with other faiths and translating books important to all of mankind. Notwithstanding your xenophobia, your society is open and multicultural, therefore "our society" includes Muslims (no matter how much that scares you).  And if you really understood sharia you would know your touted values and your western society could never be "sharia free" because the very bases of sharia upholds a persons life, religion and wealth - there shall be no harm.  Therefore it is little wonder so many Muslims are living in "your" countries. Your values and ours are basically the same.  Anyway, the reason I spend so little time in the interfaith section of our forum is that people are going to believe what they want to believe, and you're quaking in your boots concerning our faith.]]> Tue, 23 Apr 2013 06:35:26 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24867&PID=175555#175555 the Qur'an and peace : Yes, Caringheart. All non-Muslims... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24867&PID=175549#175549 Author: Matt Browne
Subject: 24867
Posted: 23 April 2013 at 12:58am

Yes, Caringheart. All non-Muslims are in trouble when Muslims rule the world or a country, unless the ruling Muslims believe in a reformed Islam. Traditional Islam is basically an apartheid system. We Christians are treated like the black people were in South Africa during apartheid rule. All Islamic schools of law, Maliki, Hanafi, Shafi'i, Zahiri, Imami Shi'ite, Ahl al-Hadith, Jariri, Kharijite and so forth establish a system of cruelty and discrimination. Jews and Christians are second-class citizens. Hindus and atheists are treated as criminals with no rights.]]> Tue, 23 Apr 2013 00:58:25 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24867&PID=175549#175549 the Qur'an and peace : Okay, let's avoid the... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24867&PID=175548#175548 Author: Matt Browne
Subject: 24867
Posted: 23 April 2013 at 12:49am

Okay, let's avoid the term Islamism. We need to say no to political Islam and the Sharia. We need to say no to anything in the Quran and the Sunnah that violates human rights and the laws of the countries we live in.

At its core, the Islamic faith is very tolerant of other faiths and beliefs, when it is based on particular interpretations of the Quran and the Sunnah. The Islamic faith can be very intolerant of other faiths and beliefs, when it is based on a different set of interpretations of the Quran and the Sunnah. Within the Muslim world we see a struggle between these two kinds of interpretations. Ignoring the troubling interpretations would be irresponsible. Their existence is a fact.

Muslims need to acknowledge that mainstream Islam is in urgent need of reform. It's not just a problem of a tiny violent minority. The Quran needs an interpretation that works in the 21st century. Islam has to go through the same painful process as Christianity did, going from burning witches and scientists to supporting the declaration of universal human rights.

We need to focus on the first step of radicalization, when a mainstream Muslim becomes a non-militant supporter of political Islam. Any religious talk that contradicts our Western values must be met with fierce opposition from our side. Any belittling of the Sharia ('we just use it as family law to settle disputes') must be met with fierce opposition from our side. Our countries must be completely Sharia free. There is only one institution allowed to make laws: we the people when we elect our representatives. The Sharia was invented 1000 years ago and it violates almost everything we hold dear in the West. It is cruel. It discriminates people. It is actually the Sharia which contains a law that says criticizing Islam is a crime. This is why critics of Islam often need police protection.

Islam has a noble future as a faith. But Islam has to stay away from all three political branches, i.e. the legislature, executive, and judiciary branch. That's the role of the state. Period.

Mustafa Kemal Atatürk introduced this modern principle in Turkey in 1923. So even without oil, Turkey has become one of the most successful Muslim countries in the world.



Edited by Matt Browne - 23 April 2013 at 12:51am]]> Tue, 23 Apr 2013 00:49:01 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24867&PID=175548#175548 the Qur'an and peace : Well, pretty much what I thought;... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24867&PID=175544#175544 Author: abuayisha
Subject: 24867
Posted: 22 April 2013 at 10:17pm

Well, pretty much what I thought; an irrational fear - " ... I may slip at some point and be overheard to express an opinion, I could end up at worst dead..."
 
In America about ten thousand people are killed each year by drunk drivers.  How many do you think die as a result of "overheard to express an opinion"?
 
Islamophobia.
]]> Mon, 22 Apr 2013 22:17:16 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24867&PID=175544#175544 the Qur'an and peace : Originally posted by abuayisha Well,... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24867&PID=175540#175540 Author: Caringheart
Subject: 24867
Posted: 22 April 2013 at 7:52pm

Originally posted by abuayisha

Well, Caringheart, perhaps you may want to explain exactly what you "fear" of "Islamism".  I can only assume you are equating Islamism with terrorism, and indeed this is a mistake in terms. With respect to Irshad Manji, she has a reformed opinion on the permissibility of being a queer in Islam.  I simply don't desire my daughter to marry a woman.

Greetings abuayisha,

I would have no problem living with islam if islamic government would treat all people the same... regardless of whether or not they believed in Muhammad.  If I am able to adhere to the laws of the country and all the laws of God... dress code, I do not steal, I am honest and do not cheat or lie, or commit any crime against my country or my fellow countrymen... then why should I be treated any different from the rest... why should I pay any different tax than any other member of the country?  Why should I not serve my country the same as any other member of the country?  Why should I be denied the same rights and freedoms as any other?  In the past non-muslims were denied property rights... the right to own or even to ride horses... they had to leave the path in deference to any muslim that came their way... How is this right in the sight of God?

See the governing laws need to be able to make these accommodations, and will the islamic laws allow it?  To treat all people as equals.  God will judge whether or not we are equal in the next world, but in this world we are created equal... this is the biggest message of Yeshua... that all men are to be treated as brothers... as endowed with equal rights and freedoms... to treat one another as you would want to be treated... to treat one another as self.

My fear is that simply because I do not believe in Muhammad, and because I may slip at some point and be overheard to express an opinion, I could end up at worst dead, and at least, imprisoned.  It matters if I would not be free to speak about my own beliefs, while muslims were free to speak about theirs and to say whatever they wanted against my own, without punishment, yet I would be subject to punishment.  It matters not to be treated equally.

Do you know of anyone who would be content to be treated in their society as a person who was less than others?  Who had to watch every word that they say? ... Who had to 'lower their gaze' before certain people so as not to be mistaken as insolent?

The reason, I believe, that Islam does not work...  The laws that govern countries and its people must be able to change with the times and to meet the cultural needs.  The laws that govern spirituality do not change.

Salaam,
Caringheart

]]> Mon, 22 Apr 2013 19:52:54 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24867&PID=175540#175540 the Qur'an and peace : Originally posted by Matt... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24867&PID=175509#175509 Author: abuayisha
Subject: 24867
Posted: 21 April 2013 at 9:42am

Originally posted by Matt Browne

We need a zero tolerance attitude for non-militant Islamism.
 
Sounds like 'just say no to Islam'.  Anyway, I think we have a contradiction in terms, and a profound misunderstanding about certain buzzwords (Islamism), as well as, who speaks for Islam - (Irshad Manji is an nonstarter).  Perhaps several different threads will open to share and discuss these issues more specifically. After all, this thread's topic is Quran and peace.  Peace.
]]> Sun, 21 Apr 2013 09:42:47 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24867&PID=175509#175509 the Qur'an and peace : I'm... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24867&PID=175500#175500 Author: Matt Browne
Subject: 24867
Posted: 21 April 2013 at 2:45am

I'm not saying that outdated interpretations of Islam is the only root cause of terrorism. There is also terrorism committed in the name of nationalism (IRA, PKK...), in the name of right-wing ideologies (Timothy McVeigh, NSU...) and in the name of left-wing ideologies (FARC...).

I'm saying that we have to deal with all root causes. Just because people also kill in the name of fascism or Marxism-Leninism, this doesn't make the killings in the name of Islam any better.

I'm not saying that outdated interpretations of Islam is the only case of religious intolerance. There are also outdated interpretations of Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism and so forth.

I'm saying that we have to deal with all forms of religious intolerance. Just because there is discrimination against women or homosexuals by some Christians, this doesn't make the discrimination against women or homosexuals by some Muslims any better.

Just like criticism of particular behavior and views of certain groups of Muslims and their interpretation of the Quran isn't Islamophobia,  criticism of particular behavior and views of certain groups of Christians and their interpretation of the Bible isn't Christianophobia.

Abuayisha hasn't come forward with a single counterargument to any of Irshad Manji's arguments listed in my previous post. There's only the pseudo-counterargument "she is a lesbian lunatic". Well, I call this intellectual bankruptcy. It includes the inability to think independently and the inability to counter criticism with arguments. Manji respects heterosexuals. And she never said that homosexuals should marry their partner. One can be against the idea of homosexual weddings, but still agree with many of the other 999 arguments Manji is making. Disagreement with one argument does not necessarily lead to disagreement with all the others.

The older brother in Boston committed a terrorist act in the name of Islam. Saying all of this has nothing to do with Islam doesn't solve anything. We need a debate about interpreting the Quran and the Sunnah.

In the past Christians killed witches and scientists in the name of Christianity. This led to a debate about interpreting the Bible.

Today people who criticize Christianity no longer need police protection.

Today people who criticize Islam still need police protection.

Unless we do something about this, this will not change. Political Islam has no future. We need a zero tolerance attitude for non-militant Islamism.

Without reform, Islam faces a very uncertain future. Manji wants to rescue the Islamic faith. She cares about Islam. And she cares about Muslims being able to be friends with Christians, Jews, Hindus and nonbelievers. She cares about peace and she is looking for ways how this can be accomplished. Her ideas are worthy of debate.

I fear Islamism, because it is cruel and it discriminates people. Islamism is a totalitarian system. Islamism is about abolishing human rights. We should all be afraid of Islamism. It is a threat to all of us. But above all, it is a serious threat to all modern peace-loving Muslims.




Edited by Matt Browne - 21 April 2013 at 3:03am]]> Sun, 21 Apr 2013 02:45:16 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24867&PID=175500#175500 the Qur'an and peace : May I? -- Originally posted... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24867&PID=175494#175494 Author: Ron Webb
Subject: 24867
Posted: 20 April 2013 at 10:26pm

May I? --
Originally posted by abuayisha

Well, Caringheart, perhaps you may want to explain exactly what you "fear" of "Islamism".  I can only assume you are equating Islamism with terrorism, and indeed this is a mistake in terms.
 
Islamism is political Islam -- the idea that Islam should be the basis of government, which amounts to the imposition of religion by force of law.  I would fear that regardless of whether the religion being imposed was Islam or Christianity or Hinduism or anything else. 
 
I disagree that Islamophobia is the fear of Islamism, however. Islamophobia is the fear of Islam in general, and hence of all Muslims.  It is essentially the idea that all Muslims are Islamists who desire to impose Islam on non-Muslims.
]]> Sat, 20 Apr 2013 22:26:23 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24867&PID=175494#175494 the Qur'an and peace : Well, Caringheart, perhaps... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24867&PID=175493#175493 Author: abuayisha
Subject: 24867
Posted: 20 April 2013 at 8:17pm

Well, Caringheart, perhaps you may want to explain exactly what you "fear" of "Islamism".  I can only assume you are equating Islamism with terrorism, and indeed this is a mistake in terms. With respect to Irshad Manji, she has a reformed opinion on the permissibility of being a queer in Islam.  I simply don't desire my daughter to marry a woman.]]> Sat, 20 Apr 2013 20:17:01 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24867&PID=175493#175493 the Qur'an and peace : Originally posted... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24867&PID=175492#175492 Author: Caringheart
Subject: 24867
Posted: 20 April 2013 at 2:57pm

Originally posted by abuayisha


it doesn'tsurprise me that Quran, Boston bombing, violence, and the lesbian"reformer" of Islam, Irshad Manji, would all fit well for Matt; under"the Qur'an and peace thread".

[/quote]

Ad hominem attack -
short for argumentum ad hominem, is an argument made against the person instead of against their argument.

"Ad hominem arguments work via the halo effect, a human cognitive bias in which the perception of one trait is influenced by the perception of an unrelated trait, e.g. treating an attractive person as more intelligent or more honest. People tend to see others as tending to be all good or tending to be all bad. Thus, if you can attribute a bad trait to your opponent, others will tend to doubt the quality of their arguments, even if the bad trait is irrelevant to the arguments."

I recommend taking the time to read and  give serious, sensible, consideration to the statements, rather than giving knee jerk reaction.
That is... if the goal you want... as I want... is peace. Smile

Salaam.

"- the term Islamophobia was invented to silence valid criticism; fear of Islamism is real and justified and it is not a mental illness"


Edited by Caringheart - 20 April 2013 at 3:02pm]]> Sat, 20 Apr 2013 14:57:55 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24867&PID=175492#175492 the Qur'an and peace : "We... need to become more... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24867&PID=175491#175491 Author: Caringheart
Subject: 24867
Posted: 20 April 2013 at 2:48pm

"We... need to become more creative to make future terror acts less likely, both by improving security and by engaging in an intelligent debate even if it makes some of us uncomfortable."

That one statement summed it up well for me.
]]> Sat, 20 Apr 2013 14:48:55 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24867&PID=175491#175491 the Qur'an and peace : Originally posted by... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24867&PID=175490#175490 Author: abuayisha
Subject: 24867
Posted: 20 April 2013 at 9:09am

Originally posted by Matt Browne

Every educated Muslim knows that the Quran contains both messages of peace and messages of violence. The same applies to the Sunnah. The Bible also contains messages of peace and violence.

 

More appropriately, it contains"messages" of peace and conflict, however when blinded by islamophobia it doesn'tsurprise me that Quran, Boston bombing, violence, and the lesbian"reformer" of Islam, Irshad Manji, would all fit well for Matt; under"the Qur'an and peace thread".

http://www.loonwatch.com/?s=Irshad+Manji&x=8&y=9



Edited by abuayisha - 20 April 2013 at 9:32am]]> Sat, 20 Apr 2013 09:09:20 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24867&PID=175490#175490 the Qur'an and peace : Every educated Muslim knows... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24867&PID=175487#175487 Author: Matt Browne
Subject: 24867
Posted: 20 April 2013 at 3:51am

Every educated Muslim knows that the Quran contains both messages of peace and messages of violence. The same applies to the Sunnah. The Bible also contains messages of peace and violence.

Messages of violence lead to acts such as the Boston Marathon bombing. Caringheart posted a valid question.

In my opinion, we need to take a deeper look at the root causes of terrorist acts such as the Boston Marathon bombing, and when we do this we are facing an inconvenient truth, which Irshad Manji calls 'the trouble with Islam today'. In the modern Western world, almost all liberals, but also many conservatives, reject this inconvenient truth out of fear of political incorrectness. By doing so we confuse multiculturalism with blind multiculturalism. I've created a list of key messages presented in Irshad Manji's two books to make it clear of what I think is going wrong. She is a Muslim journalist and wrote her two books with the help of Islamic scholars. Here are her messages:

- the trouble with Islam today is that literalism is going mainstream, worldwide
- mainstream Islam is in urgent need of reform
- in mainstream Islam peace has to replace conformity as priority number one
- Islamic identity purists fear individuality
- the Muslim world needs education, not indoctrination
- only free societies allow for the reinvention of the self and the evolution of faiths
- we need pluralism of nonviolent ideas everywhere
- introspection is necessary when things go wrong
- Islamism is the political part of Islam that advocates cruelty and discrimination
- most mainstream Muslims don't dare to differ with their theocrats
- peace-loving mainstream Muslims have to snap out of denial and find the courage to speak out
- peace-loving mainstream Muslims must demand a sharia-free and fatwa-free world
- most mainstream Muslims were more offended by the Danish cartoons than by the riots and killings that occurred afterwards and this should be seen as a scandal
- the perceived consistency of holy texts is an illusion
- there is no such thing as perfect scripture
- the stubborn streak of anti-Semitism in Islam is a fact that has to be acknowledged
- the Quran needs an interpretation that works in the 21st century
- men don't have a monopoly of interpreting the Quran
- the Quran has three times as many verses urging Muslims to think than verses promoting blind worship
- tribal customs should not be confused with faith
- Islam has not conquered Arab culture, Arab culture has conquered Islam
- cultures are man-made and there is nothing sacred about culture; only good cultural practices should survive
- adherence to 7th-century Islam is destroying the Muslims' capacity for growth
- human rights violating cultures posing as sacred religions don't deserve rights
- the goal of Islamism is replacing democracy with a totalitarian system
- people who want to defend democracy should fear both militant and non-militant Islamism
- many non-Muslims in the West don't criticize Islamic ideas and Islamic cultures, because they are afraid of appearing intolerant towards Muslims
- the term Islamophobia was invented to silence valid criticism; fear of Islamism is real and justified and it is not a mental illness
- family loyalty and the idea of honor is one of the main obstacles in Muslim communities
- moderate Muslims can ardently assure non-Muslims that Islam goes hand in glove with freedom, but until moderates behave as if it does, non-Muslims have a right to challenge this view

Here's a longer quote from Manji's book "Allah, Liberty and Love" from page 191. The key to ending Islamic terrorism are mainstream Muslims - and the role of non-Muslims is to challenge mainstream Muslims if necessary. If mainstream Muslims don't change their attitude and mindset, the list of terrorists acts such as New York, Washington, London, Madrid, Beslan and now Boston will continue to grow. There will be more crimes like these, committed by people either linked to global terrorist networks or changed by self radicalization with the use of the Internet watching YouTube videos created by preachers of hatred. Here is the quote:

"Moderate Muslims blanch at the thought of exploring their religion's role in terrorist strife. They deplore violence committed in Islam's name, but reflexively recite that Islam has nothing to do with it. In their denial, moderate Muslims cede responsibility for interpretation, effectively terrorists-in-waiting: 'You guys get to walk away with the show. We're not going to come back at you with bold and competing reinterpretations. Because if we did, we'd be accepting that religion has something to do with the violence. Since Islam is perfect, we can't go there.'
Islam is what Muslims make it. Just as Christians and Jews have reinterpreted the troubling passages of their scriptures for new centuries, Muslims have to do likewise. That's not rewriting the Quran. It's updating interpretations of existing words. Islamo-tribalists may decree their interpretations as the only true ones, but their arrogance breaches the Quran's unambiguous reminder that God alone has the full truth, and it dupes too many of us into believing that just one approach can hold water. For both reasons, reinterpretation is a noble endeavor. All the more when certain verses are cited to service killing sprees.

We need people like Irshad Manji to create a more peaceful future in a globalized world. We need to help her spread the message, like MCLA did, which is part of the Massachusetts State University system. Manji seeks to empower non-Muslims to support Islamic reform in ways that bring out the best in all, see

http://www.mcla.edu/news/internationalbestsellingauthorirshadmanjitospeakatmcla_880/

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irshad_Manji

Arresting terrorists is only a first step. We also need to become more creative to make future terror acts less likely, both by improving security and by engaging in an intelligent debate even if it makes some of us uncomfortable.



Edited by Matt Browne - 20 April 2013 at 3:51am]]> Sat, 20 Apr 2013 03:51:04 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24867&PID=175487#175487 the Qur'an and peace : Originally posted by aka2x2 When... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24867&PID=175186#175186 Author: Caringheart
Subject: 24867
Posted: 03 April 2013 at 1:43pm

Originally posted by aka2x2


When those come to thee who believe in Our signs, Say: "peace be on you...
( سورة الأنعام , Al-Anaam, Chapter #6, Verse #54)

Only to those who believe what you believe...?



Edited by Caringheart - 03 April 2013 at 1:44pm]]> Wed, 03 Apr 2013 13:43:43 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24867&PID=175186#175186 the Qur'an and peace : These are just a few examples... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24867&PID=175179#175179 Author: aka2x2
Subject: 24867
Posted: 03 April 2013 at 2:17am

These are just a few examples found at "searchtruth.com":


And make not Allah's (name) an excuse in your oaths against doing good, or acting rightly, or making peace between persons; for Allah is One Who heareth and knoweth all things.
( سورة البقرة , Al-Baqara, Chapter #2, Verse #224)

Except those who join a group between whom and you there is a treaty (of peace), or those who approach you with hearts restraining them from fighting you as well as fighting their own people. If Allah had pleased, He could have given them power over you, and they would have fought you: Therefore if they withdraw from you but fight you not, and (instead) send you (Guarantees of) peace, then Allah Hath opened no way for you (to war against them).
( سورة النساء , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #90)

Wherewith Allah guideth all who seek His good pleasure to ways of peace and safety, and leadeth them out of darkness, by His will, unto the light,- guideth them to a path that is straight.
( سورة المائدة , Al-Maeda, Chapter #5, Verse #16)

When those come to thee who believe in Our signs, Say: "peace be on you: Your Lord hath inscribed for Himself (the rule of) mercy: verily, if any of you did evil in ignorance, and thereafter repented, and amend (his conduct), lo! He is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.
( سورة الأنعام , Al-Anaam, Chapter #6, Verse #54)

etc

etc]]> Wed, 03 Apr 2013 02:17:31 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24867&PID=175179#175179 the Qur'an and peace : "I saw in the Quran a message... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24867&PID=175120#175120 Author: Rational
Subject: 24867
Posted: 30 March 2013 at 9:54am

"I saw in the Quran a message of ..."


Edited by Rational - 30 March 2013 at 9:56am]]> Sat, 30 Mar 2013 09:54:47 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24867&PID=175120#175120 the Qur'an and peace : Caring heart you are going too... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24867&PID=175066#175066 Author: Idil
Subject: 24867
Posted: 27 March 2013 at 6:48pm

Caring heart you are going too far now. If you are really happy about your religion and content you sure would not be here to create m mischief. But please do know that what you are trying is not working ad in here we don't like hypocrites like your self.]]> Wed, 27 Mar 2013 18:48:18 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24867&PID=175066#175066 the Qur'an and peace : Originally posted by rational"In... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24867&PID=174909#174909 Author: nospam001
Subject: 24867
Posted: 17 March 2013 at 3:37pm

Originally posted by rational

"In their hearts is a disease (of doubt and hypocrisy) and Allah has increased their disease. A painful torment is theirs because they used to tell lies. (10) ... Their likeness is as the likeness of one who kindled a fire; then, when it lighted all around him, Allah took away their light and left them in darkness. (So) they could not see. (17) They are deaf, dumb, and blind, so they return not (to the Right Path). (18)"
A few verses which I had overlooked earlier. Thanks for posting.

]]> Sun, 17 Mar 2013 15:37:20 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24867&PID=174909#174909 the Qur'an and peace : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet)Edited... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24867&PID=174900#174900 Author: abuayisha
Subject: 24867
Posted: 16 March 2013 at 5:31pm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Troll_(Internet)

Edited by abuayisha - 17 March 2013 at 7:32pm]]> Sat, 16 Mar 2013 17:31:01 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24867&PID=174900#174900 the Qur'an and peace : Greetings Rational,I have not... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24867&PID=174897#174897 Author: Caringheart
Subject: 24867
Posted: 16 March 2013 at 2:26pm

Greetings Rational,

I have not found peace in the qur'an, or promotion of peace in the qur'an,
that is why I am asking muslims to share with me where they find the peace that is said to be in the qur'an, and promoted by the qur'an.

Salaam.
]]> Sat, 16 Mar 2013 14:26:35 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24867&PID=174897#174897 the Qur'an and peace : Originally posted by Caringheart Originally... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24867&PID=174896#174896 Author: Rational
Subject: 24867
Posted: 16 March 2013 at 1:57pm

Originally posted by Caringheart

Originally posted by NABA

can U quote some verses related to violence and injustice from Qur'an.

Greetings NABA,

That's not what this thread is for.
Thanks.

Salaam,
Caringheart

Assalamo Alaikom Caringheart (Peace be upon you Caringheart),

Peace be upon you Naba. You asked a fair question relating to this thread. I also want to know what Caringheart feels about Peace and the Quran.

They (think to) deceive Allah and those who believe, while they only deceive themselves, and perceive (it) not! (9) In their hearts is a disease (of doubt and hypocrisy) and Allah has increased their disease. A painful torment is theirs because they used to tell lies. (10) And when it is said to them: "Make not mischief on the earth," they say: "We are only peacemakers." (11) Verily! They are the ones who make mischief, but they perceive not. (12) And when it is said to them (hypocrites): "Believe as the people (followers of Muhammad Peace be upon him, Al-Ansar and Al-Muhajirun) have believed," they say: "Shall we believe as the fools have believed?" Verily, they are the fools, but they know not. (13) And when they meet those who believe, they say: "We believe," but when they are alone with their Shayatin (devils - polytheists, hypocrites, etc.), they say: "Truly, we are with you; verily, we were but mocking." (14) Allah mocks at them and gives them increase in their wrong-doings to wander blindly. (15) These are they who have purchased error for guidance, so their commerce was profitless. And they were not guided. (16) Their likeness is as the likeness of one who kindled a fire; then, when it lighted all around him, Allah took away their light and left them in darkness. (So) they could not see. (17) They are deaf, dumb, and blind, so they return not (to the Right Path). (18) Or like a rainstorm from the sky, wherein is darkness, thunder, and lightning. They thrust their fingers in their ears to keep out the stunning thunderclap for fear of death. But Allah ever encompasses the disbelievers (i.e. Allah will gather them all together). (19) The lightning almost snatches away their sight, whenever it flashes for them, they walk therein, and when darkness covers them, they stand still. And if Allah willed, He could have taken away their hearing and their sight. Certainly, Allah has power over all things. (20) O mankind! Worship your Lord (Allah), Who created you and those who were before you so that you may become Al-Muttaqun (the pious - see V. 2:2). (21)

Peace be upon you, Caringheart.



Edited by Rational - 16 March 2013 at 2:00pm]]> Sat, 16 Mar 2013 13:57:48 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24867&PID=174896#174896 the Qur'an and peace : Originally posted by NABA can... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24867&PID=174891#174891 Author: Caringheart
Subject: 24867
Posted: 16 March 2013 at 9:09am

Originally posted by NABA

can U quote some verses related to violence and injustice from Qur'an.

Greetings NABA,

That's not what this thread is for.
Thanks.

Salaam,
Caringheart
]]> Sat, 16 Mar 2013 09:09:11 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24867&PID=174891#174891 the Qur'an and peace : can U quote some verses related... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24867&PID=174885#174885 Author: NABA
Subject: 24867
Posted: 15 March 2013 at 10:40pm

can U quote some verses related to violence and injustice from Qur'an.]]> Fri, 15 Mar 2013 22:40:15 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24867&PID=174885#174885 the Qur'an and peace : Originally posted by Matt... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24867&PID=174884#174884 Author: NABA
Subject: 24867
Posted: 15 March 2013 at 10:38pm

Originally posted by Matt Browne

The early Meccan suras promote peace, many of the later Medinan suras promote violence and injustice.

]]> Fri, 15 Mar 2013 22:38:47 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24867&PID=174884#174884 the Qur'an and peace : The early Meccan suras promote... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24867&PID=174793#174793 Author: Matt Browne
Subject: 24867
Posted: 10 March 2013 at 8:40am

The early Meccan suras promote peace, many of the later Medinan suras promote violence and injustice.

]]> Sun, 10 Mar 2013 08:40:14 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24867&PID=174793#174793 the Qur'an and peace : Surah Al Maidaah ch 5 v 32-Allah... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24867&PID=174276#174276 Author: NABA
Subject: 24867
Posted: 15 February 2013 at 2:27am

Surah Al Maidaah ch 5 v 32-Allah says if you save an innocent human being as if U have save the whole humanity.Surah Al Fussilat ch 41 v 34-Allah says no doubt good deeds and bad deeds can never b same,supress the bad deeds by doing good deeds and U will see ur enemy will become ur best friend.Surah Al Hujurat ch 49 v 6-whenever a message posed on to U do enquiry whether it is right or wrong,We know that most people blame each other just by hearing somebody,without finding truth.surah Al hujurat ch 49 v 11-12 forbids backbiting or laughing at others behind their back and v know backbiting is the root of big fights and quarrels.Allahfiz]]> Fri, 15 Feb 2013 02:27:39 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24867&PID=174276#174276 the Qur'an and peace : I would like if anyone would share... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24867&PID=174215#174215 Author: Caringheart
Subject: 24867
Posted: 13 February 2013 at 5:21pm

I would like if anyone would share with me where they feel the Qur'an promotes peace.
Thank you.
]]> Wed, 13 Feb 2013 17:21:36 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24867&PID=174215#174215