IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : The Ishmael Complex http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum This is an XML content feed of; IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Interfaith Dialogue : The Ishmael Complex Thu, 20 Jun 2013 01:26:32 +0000 Wed, 06 Feb 2013 21:05:39 +0000 http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/tech/rss Web Wiz Forums 8.04 360 www.IslamiCity.com/forum/RSS_post_feed.asp?TID=24774 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_images/ICForum_Logo.gif http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum The Ishmael Complex : Just calling something pure fantasy... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24774&PID=173915#173915 Author: Empiricist
Subject: 24774
Posted: 06 February 2013 at 9:05pm

Just calling something pure fantasy just avoids the issue. 

The other comments do not make sense to me. 
]]> Wed, 06 Feb 2013 21:05:39 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24774&PID=173915#173915 The Ishmael Complex : Originally posted by Webber What... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24774&PID=173704#173704 Author: Abu Loren
Subject: 24774
Posted: 03 February 2013 at 3:28am

Originally posted by Webber

What I have seen with Christians, and moreso with Jews is they don't like Muslims making Ishmael the "almost" sacrifice. There isn't enough Quranic evidence to rewrite history, and in the overall it makes no difference to any of us, so it should just be let go.
 
Consider this. Would Prophet Ibrahim (Alayhi Salaam) be more distressed about sacrificing Ishmael (Alayhi Salaam) than Prophet Isaac (Alayhi Salaam)?
If God had asked Prophet Ibrahim (Alayhi Salaam) to sacrifice Prophet Isaac (Alayhi Salaam0 then it makes no sense as he already has another son. However, just imagine the impact of sacrifcing Prophet Ishmael (Alayhi Salaam0 when he was his only child, and that after having him at old age.
I don't know about you but I think Prophet Ibrahim (Alyhi Salaam) would be more distressed in 'almost' losing Prophet Ishmael (Alayhi Salaam).
 
 
This is the point of contention though which leads people to read where it says Ishmael was a wild donkey of a man. Muslims panick, swear it must be corrupt, Christians and Jews chuckle about it, Muslims go away mad thinking they all hate Ishmael. Too bad a book wasn't written to follow Ishmael. It would have contained some serious wisdom, or something more to argue about, lol.
 
Was "wild donkey" an expression for temper tantrums? Not uncommon with first borns. Not usually a life long thing either, and does not mean he raised a nation of wild donkeys. Jews and christian would play on that though.
 
 
Prophet Muhammad (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) tells us that Prophet Ishmael (Alayhi Salaam) was an accomplished archer. May be he was very adept at hunting and (as usual) the Jews took that to be an aggressive qaulity. Allahu Alaum!
 
 
Haggar was obviously blessed and given the help she needed to raise him until they were established.
 
Next time you run into a Christian who wants to argue Ishmael as an outcast, you can show him where it says God blessed Ishmael. Shouldn't much matter their response, just ask them if God was wrong to bless him. Then tell them, (with a smile) they should read more.
 
Indeed I pray to have patience with Christians on this forum :)
]]> Sun, 03 Feb 2013 03:28:52 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24774&PID=173704#173704 The Ishmael Complex : Originally posted by EmpiricistAlso... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24774&PID=173703#173703 Author: Abu Loren
Subject: 24774
Posted: 03 February 2013 at 3:18am

Originally posted by Empiricist

Also note from Genesis 16-
Then the angel of the Lord told her, “Go back to your mistress and submit to her.” 10 The angel added, “I will increase your descendants so much that they will be too numerous to count.”S)'>

11 The angel of the LordT)'> also said to her:

“You are now pregnant
    and you will give birth to a son.U)'>
You shall name himV)'> Ishmael,a]'>[a]W)'>
    for the Lord has heard of your misery.X)'>
12 He will be a wild donkeyY)'> of a man;
    his hand will be against everyone
    and everyone’s hand against him,
and he will live in hostility
    towardb]'>[b] all his brothers.Z)'>”

This has carried forward to today if his descendants are the Muslims and the brothers are the Jews and Christians.  However that also gives credibility to the prophesy of Jesus in the old testament.  There is no prophesy of Muhammed.  That also means all the words of Jesus should be heeded and cannot be superceded by whatever Muhammed said.  This is not how truth is delivered- by multiple revisions.  Even Muhammed revised what he said- early verses are contradicted by later verses.  Jesus warned about false prophets.  Could Muhammed be one?
 

Sahih International

 

And mention inthe Book, Ishmael. Indeed, he was true to his promise, and he was a messengerand a prophet. 9:54                                                And [mention] Ishmael and Idrees and Dhul-Kifl; all wereof the patient. 21:85                                                                                                     And remember Ishmael, Elisha and Dhul-Kifl, and all areamong the outstanding. 38:48

This conflicts with your version in the bible. As for the rest of your comment, it's just pure fantasy.

]]> Sun, 03 Feb 2013 03:18:47 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24774&PID=173703#173703 The Ishmael Complex : Originally posted by Abu... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24774&PID=173687#173687 Author: Caringheart
Subject: 24774
Posted: 02 February 2013 at 7:13pm

Originally posted by Abu Loren

Genesis17:18And Abraham said unto God, O that Ishmael might live before thee!

GodAllah Subhana Wa Ta’ala heard his pleas and replied :-

Genesis17:20And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him,and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princesshall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.

Christians would like to demonise Ishmaeland his mother Hagar. They say that because Hagar was the handmaid of Sarah,Prophet Ishmael was born into bondage and has lost his claim to be the son ofProphet Ibrahim (Alayhi Salaam). They fail to realize or even accept the factthat both sons of Prophet Ibrahim (Alayhi Salaam) Prophet Ishmael and ProphetIsaac (peace and blessings of Allah be upon them both) were blessed by GodAllah Subhana Wa Ta’ala.

Thisdeep rooted hatred for the first born son of Prophet Ibrahim (Alayhi Salaam) isunfounded. Nowhere in the Bible does it state that God Allah Subhana Wa Ta’alawould only bless Prophet Isaac (Alayhi Slaam) and his progeny.

TheJew and the Arab are indeed brothers.



"TheJew and the Arab are indeed brothers."

I agree.
and I refute what you say about 'Christians' demonizing Hagar and Ishmael.
Everything written of Ishmael was written in the old testament(before Jesus and His followers ever came along) and indeed the scriptures say that God would 'multiply the seed' of Ishmael.

13 And also of the son of the bondwoman will I make a nation, because he is thy seed. (Genesis 16)

21 And he dwelt in the wilderness of Paran: and his mother took him a wife out of the land of Egypt. (Genesis 21)


Ishmael, too, has his part to play.




Edited by Caringheart - 02 February 2013 at 7:14pm]]> Sat, 02 Feb 2013 19:13:29 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24774&PID=173687#173687 The Ishmael Complex : Certainly Ishmael was blessed... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24774&PID=173659#173659 Author: Webber
Subject: 24774
Posted: 02 February 2013 at 8:16am

Certainly Ishmael was blessed and made a great nation. I haven't noticed any deep rooted hatred for him from Christians though.
What I have seen with Christians, and moreso with Jews is they don't like Muslims making Ishmael the "almost" sacrifice. There isn't enough Quranic evidence to rewrite history, and in the overall it makes no difference to any of us, so it should just be let go.
This is the point of contention though which leads people to read where it says Ishmael was a wild donkey of a man. Muslims panick, swear it must be corrupt, Christians and Jews chuckle about it, Muslims go away mad thinking they all hate Ishmael. Too bad a book wasn't written to follow Ishmael. It would have contained some serious wisdom, or something more to argue about, lol.
 
Was "wild donkey" an expression for temper tantrums? Not uncommon with first borns. Not usually a life long thing either, and does not mean he raised a nation of wild donkeys. Jews and christian would play on that though.
 
Haggar was obviously blessed and given the help she needed to raise him until they were established.
 
Next time you run into a Christian who wants to argue Ishmael as an outcast, you can show him where it says God blessed Ishmael. Shouldn't much matter their response, just ask them if God was wrong to bless him. Then tell them, (with a smile) they should read more.
]]> Sat, 02 Feb 2013 08:16:50 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24774&PID=173659#173659 The Ishmael Complex : Also note from Genesis 16- Then... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24774&PID=173649#173649 Author: Empiricist
Subject: 24774
Posted: 02 February 2013 at 5:17am

Also note from Genesis 16-
Then the angel of the Lord told her, “Go back to your mistress and submit to her.” 10 The angel added, “I will increase your descendants so much that they will be too numerous to count.”S)'>

11 The angel of the LordT)'> also said to her:

“You are now pregnant
    and you will give birth to a son.U)'>
You shall name himV)'> Ishmael,a]'>[a]W)'>
    for the Lord has heard of your misery.X)'>
12 He will be a wild donkeyY)'> of a man;
    his hand will be against everyone
    and everyone’s hand against him,
and he will live in hostility
    towardb]'>[b] all his brothers.Z)'>”

This has carried forward to today if his descendants are the Muslims and the brothers are the Jews and Christians.  However that also gives credibility to the prophesy of Jesus in the old testament.  There is no prophesy of Muhammed.  That also means all the words of Jesus should be heeded and cannot be superceded by whatever Muhammed said.  This is not how truth is delivered- by multiple revisions.  Even Muhammed revised what he said- early verses are contradicted by later verses.  Jesus warned about false prophets.  Could Muhammed be one?
]]> Sat, 02 Feb 2013 05:17:20 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24774&PID=173649#173649 The Ishmael Complex : Alhamdulilahi Rabbil... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24774&PID=173613#173613 Author: Abu Loren
Subject: 24774
Posted: 01 February 2013 at 5:38am

AlhamdulilahiRabbil Alamin Ar Rahman ir Rahim

As’alaamuAlaikkum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuhu

 

Prophet Ishmael (Alayhi Salaam) was the first bornson of the beloved Prophet of God Allah Subhana Wa Ta’ala Prophet Ibrahim(Alayhi Salaam). Being the first born, Ishmael (Alyhi Salaam) was especiallyloved by his father as Prophet Ibrahim (Alayhi Salaam) was getting on years.  Prophet Ibrahim made a supplication to GodAllah Subhana Wa Ta’ala to bless his son and his progeny.

Genesis17:18And Abraham said unto God, O that Ishmael might live before thee!

GodAllah Subhana Wa Ta’ala heard his pleas and replied :-

Genesis17:20And as for Ishmael, I have heard thee: Behold, I have blessed him,and will make him fruitful, and will multiply him exceedingly; twelve princesshall he beget, and I will make him a great nation.

Inthe Holy Qur’an we are told by God Allah Subhana Wa Ta’ala that He orderedProphets Ibrahim and Ishmael (peace and blessings of Allah be upon them both)to buid the Kaba’a in Mecca. This is where Hagar and Ishmael were ordered to besettled. We can deduce from this blessing that God Allah Subhana Wa Ta’alawould send Prophets and Messengers to the descendants of Ishmael (Alayhi Salaam).We can deduce from the Holy Qur’an that Prophets Hud, Salih, Shua’ib etc (Peaceand blessings of Allah be upon them) were the direct descendants of ProphetIshmael (Alayhi Salaam). The final Messenger and Prophet of this line beingProphet Muhammad (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam).

GodAllah Subhana Wa Ta’ala does not lie. Christians would like to demonise Ishmaeland his mother Hagar. They say that because Hagar was the handmaid of Sarah,Prophet Ishmael was born into bondage and has lost his claim to be the son ofProphet Ibrahim (Alayhi Salaam). They fail to realize or even accept the factthat both sons of Prophet Ibrahim (Alayhi Salaam) Prophet Ishmael and ProphetIsaac (peace and blessings of Allah be upon them both) were blessed by GodAllah Subhana Wa Ta’ala.

Thisdeep rooted hatred for the first born son of Prophet Ibrahim (Alayhi Salaam) isunfounded. Nowhere in the Bible does it state that God Allah Subhana Wa Ta’alawould only bless Prophet Isaac (Alayhi Slaam) and his progeny.

TheJew and the Arab are indeed brothers.

]]> Fri, 01 Feb 2013 05:38:07 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24774&PID=173613#173613