Jesus (Alayhi Salaam) or the One True God?

Good point, actually.

Unlike king Tutankhamun, Ramses II was not a teenager when he died. He was 5 feet 7 inches tall.

http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/ramesses2intro.htm

He lived 700 years before Rome was a Republic and almost 1200 years before it became an Empire. Yet he was shorter than the average Roman soldier. The book describing the height of Roman soldiers being 5 feet 10 inches to 6 feet was written in the 4th century AD.

Another interesting discovery is that of the Terracota Army- thousands of life sized statues of Chinese soldiers made during the time of Emperor Qin, who lived in the 3rd century BC. The statues of the men range from 5 feet 8 inches to 6 feet 2 inches, with the commanders being 6 feet 3 inches tall.

http://www.touregypt.net/featurestories/ramesses2intro.htm

Ramses II was shorter than them, too. So was his father, Seti I who was 5 feet 7 inches tall.

http://www.reference.com/browse/Seti+I

Nesyamun was an Egyptian pagan priest who lived in 1100 BC. His mummy was 5 feet 6 inches.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/leeds/content/articles/2008/08/14/history_nesyamun_feature.shtml


King Thutmose the IIIrd, who lived in the 15th century BC (prior to Tutankhamun, Ramses II, the Roman Army or Nesyamun)... was barely 5 feet tall.

http://ancienthistory.netscype.com/article/thutmose-iii-interesting-facts

Lindow Man, a mummy of a man who lived between 2 BC and 119 AD in Great Britain, was 168 centimetres, or approximately 5 feet 6 inches tall. Yet only 3-4 centuries afterwards, the average height of Roman soldiers ranged from 5 feet 10 inches to 6 feet!


And Muhammad claimed people have been getting shorter throughout history up to his time!

 

[/QUOTE]

 

 

If I wanted to disprove that people are shorter than Adam allegedly was, a 90 foot skeleton would indeed be necessary.

However, that is not what I am trying to do.

I am disproving the statement that people have been continually diminishing in height up to the time of Muhammad.

If that were true, you would not be finding mummies of Ancient Egyptians who lived a millennia before De Re Militari was written who were almost all shorter than the minimal height of a Roman soldier!

Why do I find it hard to believe that people had been diminishing in stature up to the time of Muhammad? Because they hadn't!

 

The Egyptian pharaohs who reigned before 1200 BC and the Roman soldiers of the 5th century AD lived more than "a few generations" apart.
 [/QUOTE]

 

Tell you what, instead of telling me to get lost and lamenting the fact you can't talk on this forum like you can talk on the street after coming out of a nightclub... why don't you prove to me that people in fact had been decreasing continuously in stature until the time of Muhammad? There is so much historical evidence. It should be a cinch for a man of your great intelligence to prove me wrong and once and for all show that between the time of Adam and the time of Muhammad, people had been continuously getting smaller! Go ahead!

 

 

Perhaps. What we know for certain is that God didn't tell Muhammad that people had been continuously getting smaller between the creation of Adam and his time.

 

[/QUOTE]

 

 

You don't know who God is, unfortunately. You are right about one thing. He is the greatest, and He does punish and forgive whom He wills.
 

When King Tut was killed, it's widely believed that he was a teenager at the time. So the answer is he had time to grow.

 

 

Because by faith I can believe in this statement. You on the other hand want to disprove it and for that purpose you need to find the skeleton of a90 feet man. Why do you find it hard to believe this?

 

 

Like I said you can't produce data that only compares a few generations. Do you believe it's possible that a grandfather who is tall, his son who is short and his grandson who is tall can occur within just three generations?
 

 

 

In that case, why don't you just get lost? Stop trying to disprove Islam and to discredit the holy Prophet of God (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam). I wish I could use stronger language on this forum.

 

 

 

It's only your opinion. So you can keep it, no probs. He was only a warner so those who want to believe then believe and those who want to disbelieve then disbelieve. Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala told Prophet Muhammad (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) not to cry for the disbelievers as hi only duty was to convey the message.

 

 

No. What I meant was that ALL humanity from Prophet Adam (Alayhi Salaam) to whoever the last person to die will be in rows in front of our Maker before Judgement. I was just hoping that I'd get a glimpse of him so I can see what the father humanity looked like. :)

I'm trying ringo. I'm really trying hard. But when I come across people like you who has zero knowledge of Islam and trying to preach it to Muslims it makes my blood boil. That's when I turn Mujahideen and wish there was a bomb nearby.]]> Fri, 01 Feb 2013 18:56:30 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24772&PID=173639#173639 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24772&PID=173635#173635 Author: nospam001
Subject: 24772
Posted: 01 February 2013 at 3:27pm

This is the best topic I've read in weeks!

I was too old for the Smurfs myself but the kids have a DVD of 'Night at the Museum' (1 or 2, i forget which). It features some Roman soldiers that are about 6 inches high.

TG - I love the diminishing font size. ]]> Fri, 01 Feb 2013 15:27:16 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24772&PID=173635#173635 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24772&PID=173634#173634 Author: TG12345
Subject: 24772
Posted: 01 February 2013 at 3:01pm

Originally posted by TG12345


There is no way to prove or disprove the claim that Adam was 60 cubits tall. As both the Bible and Quran teach, there were times when giants existed on the earth. Unlike the Quran, the Bible does not teach that Adam lived in heaven prior to his coming to earth.

Originally posted by Abu Loren

 Have you never read the bible? The whole Judeo-Christian principle is based on the fall of Adam and Eve from heaven to earth after the 'original sin'. If you go back and re-read the bible you will see that they were living in paradise, God even came to see them in the garden.

Salaam Alaikum, Abu Loren.

Nowhere does the Bible say that the Garden of Eden was located in Heaven. It also doesn't instruct believers to insult non-Christians. As a "former Christian", you should know these things.

Originally posted by TG12345

 However, what I want to examine is what Muhammad said afterwards, namely that people have been decreasing in stature/size/height since the creation of Adam up until the time Muhammad spoke these words.

Originally posted by Abu Loren

Obviously if Adam (Alayhi Salaam) was created 60 cubits then it is very plain that humanity has been decreasing in size. If you can find a 90 feet man then you can say that mankind has NOT been decreasing. 

If Muhammad said it had decreased in size, maybe he would have been right. But he didn't say that. He said that humanity had been decreasing in size continuously from the creation of Adam to his time.

Originally posted by TG12345

If people have been decreasing in stature starting with the creation of Adam and up to the 7th century AD, how could it be possible that Tutankhamun who lived and died almost a milennia before Rome became an empire was slightly shorter than the average Roman soldier?

Clearly, people have not been continuously decreasing in size between the time of Adam's creation and the time of Muhammad. How do you reconcile this evidence with Muhammad's words?

Originally posted by Abu Loren

 What is the point of comparing people born within a space of a couple of thousans years? Height increases and decreases for various reasons. The main factor being diet. Nations that enjoy success in trade and wealth are bound to rise in height due to the readily available food that is on offer.

An example is when the British fought the Indians in the 18th century, they claimed the people there, in the North West Frontier were giants. They were undoubtedly taller than the British. The British people were shorter in the 18th century than they are now because of the wealth and hence the food that is available to them.

 

Another example is the Japanese. The modern Japanese enjoy American junk food and this has resulted in these people growing in height.

 

Your data is useless as we need the evidence to compare people who are 90 feet tall, so if you don't have that evidence then the likelihood IS that people are decreasing in height.

Why do you need to find someone 90 feet tall to disprove what Muhammad said?

He didn't say that people are smaller than Adam was. He said that from the time of Adam to the 7th century, they had been continuously decreasing in size.

That statement is quite simply not true. People's heights had gone up and down between the time of Adam's creation and the 7th century AD, due to a variety of factors. However, they have not been decreasing continuously. My "useless data" indicates that at least for several centuries between the creation of Adam and the 7th century, the height of human beings at time rose and at other times decreased. This shows that people have not been continuously been getting smaller until the 7th century.

 

Of course not. I'm not the one who claims they have been continuously decreasing in size, and I don't believe the person who made that claim was a prophet.

 

He was an intelligent man and he sincerely believed he was serving and following God. However, some of the things he said were clearly false. This is one of them.

Does your faith allow you to assume you will enter Heaven?

Obviously if Adam (Alayhi Salaam) was created 60 cubits then it is very plain that humanity has been decreasing in size. If you can find a 90 feet man then you can say that mankind has NOT been decreasing.  What is the point of comparing people born within a space of a couple of thousans years? Height increases and decreases for various reasons. The main factor being diet. Nations that enjoy success in trade and wealth are bound to rise in height due to the readily available food that is on offer. [/QUOTE]]]> Fri, 01 Feb 2013 09:10:10 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24772&PID=173624#173624 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24772&PID=173622#173622 Author: Rational
Subject: 24772
Posted: 01 February 2013 at 7:56am

Originally posted by TG12345

OK, I am derailing my own thread temporarily but I really need to ask you... when you were a kid did you watch the Smurfs? LOL that was one of the coolest shows ever!!!!

Yup i used to watch those little blue things in arabic!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ycsUllvZ9gs



Edited by Rational - 01 February 2013 at 8:02am]]> Fri, 01 Feb 2013 07:56:34 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24772&PID=173622#173622 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24772&PID=173621#173621 Author: TG12345
Subject: 24772
Posted: 01 February 2013 at 7:28am

Originally posted by Rational

Originally posted by TG12345

Originally posted by Rational

Originally posted by TG12345

The average height of a Roman soldier was 6 inches

Now that's short. I can imagine the entire Roman army gathered and fighting a fierce battle on tiny horses, in the back garder. I wonder how many Romans you could fit in a Mini

What's a back garder, by the way?

It's a special garden for little people 

OK, I am derailing my own thread temporarily but I really need to ask you... when you were a kid did you watch the Smurfs? LOL that was one of the coolest shows ever!!!!
]]> Fri, 01 Feb 2013 07:28:57 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24772&PID=173621#173621 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24772&PID=173620#173620 Author: Rational
Subject: 24772
Posted: 01 February 2013 at 7:24am

Originally posted by TG12345

Originally posted by Rational

Originally posted by TG12345

The average height of a Roman soldier was 6 inches

Now that's short. I can imagine the entire Roman army gathered and fighting a fierce battle on tiny horses, in the back garder. I wonder how many Romans you could fit in a Mini

What's a back garder, by the way?

It's a special garden for little people 

]]> Fri, 01 Feb 2013 07:24:16 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24772&PID=173620#173620 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24772&PID=173618#173618 Author: TG12345
Subject: 24772
Posted: 01 February 2013 at 6:48am

Back garders and 6 inch soldiers aside, how do you reconcile the fact that, despite Muhammad's teaching, historical evidence points to the fact that people have not been continuously decreasing in stature up to the 7th century AD?]]> Fri, 01 Feb 2013 06:48:56 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24772&PID=173618#173618 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24772&PID=173617#173617 Author: TG12345
Subject: 24772
Posted: 01 February 2013 at 6:39am

Originally posted by Rational

Originally posted by TG12345

The average height of a Roman soldier was 6 inches

Now that's short. I can imagine the entire Roman army gathered and fighting a fierce battle on tiny horses, in the back garder. I wonder how many Romans you could fit in a Mini

What's a back garder, by the way?
]]> Fri, 01 Feb 2013 06:39:31 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24772&PID=173617#173617 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24772&PID=173615#173615 Author: TG12345
Subject: 24772
Posted: 01 February 2013 at 6:18am

Originally posted by Rational

Originally posted by TG12345

The average height of a Roman soldier was 6 inches

Now that's short. Can you imagine the tiny horses they were riding. I wonder how many romans you could fit in a Mini

LOL my bad. The source said the average height of one of these guys was 6 feet.
]]> Fri, 01 Feb 2013 06:18:42 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24772&PID=173615#173615 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24772&PID=173614#173614 Author: Rational
Subject: 24772
Posted: 01 February 2013 at 6:09am

Originally posted by TG12345

The average height of a Roman soldier was 6 inches

Now that's short. I can imagine the entire Roman army gathered and fighting a fierce battle on tiny horses, in the back garder. I wonder how many Romans you could fit in a Mini


Edited by Rational - 01 February 2013 at 6:20am]]> Fri, 01 Feb 2013 06:09:46 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24772&PID=173614#173614 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24772&PID=173611#173611 Author: TG12345
Subject: 24772
Posted: 01 February 2013 at 3:43am

This is a question to Muslims on Islamicity.

Salaam Alaikum. I hope you are well.

I found some interesting hadiths that contain something Muhammad said. They come from Muslim and Bukhari, so unless it can be proven otherwise, I will assume they are sound.

Muhammad evidently stated that Adam was 60 cubits tall and that people have been decreasing in height continuously from the day of Adam's creation to the time Muhammad stated the words below (sometime in the 7th century AD).

) Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "Allah created adam in his complete shape and form (directly), sixty cubits (about 30 meters) in height. When He created him, He said (to him), "Go and greet that group of angels sitting there, and listen what they will say in reply to you, for that will be your greeting and the greeting of your offspring." adam (went and) said, 'As-Salamu alaikum (Peace be upon you).' They replied, 'AsSalamu-'Alaika wa Rahmatullah (Peace and Allah's Mercy be on you) So they increased 'Wa Rahmatullah' The Prophet added 'So whoever will enter Paradise, will be of the shape and form of adam. Since then the creation of adam's (offspring) (i.e. stature of human beings is being diminished continuously) to the present time." (Book #74, Hadith #246)

Search the word adam cubits in the Hadith (Hadis) Books (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Sahih Muslim, Sunan Abu-Dawud, and Malik's Muwatta)


(2) Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: Allah, the Exalted and Glorious, created adam in His own image with His length of sixty cubits, and as He created him He told him to greet that group, and that was a party of angels sitting there, and listen to the response that they give him, for it would form his greeting and that of his offspring. He then went away and said: Peace be upon you! They (the angels) said: May there be peace upon you and the Mercy of Allah, and they made an addition of" Mercy of Allah". So he who would get into Paradise would get in the form of Adarn, his length being sixty cubits, then the people who followed him continued to diminish in size up to this day. (Book #040, Hadith #6809)

http://www.searchtruth.com/searchHad...earch_word=all


Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "Allah created Adam, making him 60 cubits tall. When He created him, He said to him, "Go and greet that group of angels, and listen to their reply, for it will be your greeting (salutation) and the greeting (salutations of your offspring." So, Adam said (to the angels), As-Salamu Alaikum (i.e. Peace be upon you). The angels said, "As-salamu Alaika wa Rahmatu-l-lahi" (i.e. Peace and Allah's Mercy be upon you). Thus the angels added to Adam's salutation the expression, 'Wa Rahmatu-l-lahi,' Any person who will enter Paradise will resemble Adam (in appearance and figure). People have been decreasing in stature since Adam's creation.


Hadith (Hadis) Books (Sahih Al-Bukhari, Sahih Muslim, Sunan Abu-Dawud, and Malik's Muwatta)

There is no way to prove or disprove the claim that Adam was 60 cubits tall. As both the Bible and Quran teach, there were times when giants existed on the earth. Unlike the Quran, the Bible does not teach that Adam lived in heaven prior to his coming to earth.

However, what I want to examine is what Muhammad said afterwards, namely that people have been decreasing in stature/size/height since the creation of Adam up until the time Muhammad spoke these words.

Are you aware that the height of people in Europe between the middle of the first century and the 7th century (when Muhammad began preaching)
fluctuated and significantly increased at times- like between the fourth and sixth century? Although people in Europe in the 7th century were shorter than people in the 6th century, they were in fact taller than those living in the 1st and 3th centuries.

Scroll to page 13 to see the table showing human height between the 1st and 18th centuries AD.

http://www.uni-tuebingen.de/uni/wwl/...omillennia.pdf

I am unaware of stats for Africa or Asia or the Americas or other parts of the world, but historical evidence shows that in some parts of the Europe, instead of continuously decreasing in stature from the beginning of time to the time of Muhammad, the growth of people fluctuated between the 1st and 7th century and have for the most part been on the rise.

How would you reconcile this data with Muhammad's statement that people have been decreasing in size between the creation of the world and the 7th century AD?

Another interesting fact: Tutankhamun, who lived 1332 BC – 1323 BC, was 5 feet 11 inches tall.
Radiologists Attempt To Solve Mystery Of Tut's Demise

The average height of a Roman soldier was 6 inches. The Roman Empire came into existence in 27 BC
Digital | Attic - Warfare : De Re Militari Book I: The Selection and Training of New Levies


If people have been decreasing in stature starting with the creation of Adam and up to the 7th century AD, how could it be possible that Tutankhamun who lived and died almost a milennia before Rome became an empire was slightly shorter than the average Roman soldier?

Clearly, people have not been continuously decreasing in size between the time of Adam's creation and the time of Muhammad. How do you reconcile this evidence with Muhammad's words?

Looking forward to hearing from you.

Allahu Akhbar. Blessed be His Name. ]]> Fri, 01 Feb 2013 03:43:50 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24772&PID=173611#173611