IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : well behaved non believer vs bad behaved believer

well behaved non believer vs bad behaved believer : Hi Rational, --- It talks about...

Wed, 13 Mar 2013 12:57:14 +0000

Author: Placid
Subject: 24738
Posted: 13 March 2013 at 12:57pm

Hi Rational,

--- It talks about the faith of Abraham in Surah 2:
132 Pickthall: The same did Abraham enjoin upon his sons, and also Jacob, (saying): O my sons! Lo! Allah hath chosen for you the (true) religion; therefore die not save as men who have surrendered (unto Him).
133 Or were ye present when death came to Jacob, when he said unto his sons: What will ye worship after me? They said: We shall worship thy God, the God of thy fathers, Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac, One God, and unto Him we have surrendered.
136 Say (O Muslims): We believe in Allah and that which is revealed unto us and that which was revealed unto Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the tribes, and that which Moses and Jesus received, and that which the prophets received from their Lord. We make no distinction between any of them, and unto Him we have surrendered.

132 Yusuf Ali: And this was the legacy that Abraham left to his sons, and so did Jacob; "Oh my sons! God hath chosen the Faith for you; then die not except in the Faith of Islam."
133 Were ye witnesses when death appeared before Jacob? Behold, he said to his sons: "What will ye worship after me?" They said: "We shall worship Thy God and the God of thy fathers, of Abraham, Isma'il and Isaac, - the one (True) God: To Him we bow (in Islam)."
136 Say ye: "We believe in God, and the revelation given to us, and to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and that given to Moses and Jesus, and that given to (all) prophets from their Lord: We make no difference between one and another of them: And we bow to God (in Islam)."

--- So the Faith of Abraham that he handed down to his sons and grandsons was.
133 Pickthall: They said: We shall worship thy God, the God of thy fathers, Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac, One God, and unto Him we have surrendered.
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133 Yusuf Ali: They said: "We shall worship Thy God and the God of thy fathers, of Abraham, Isma'il and Isaac, - the one (True) God: To Him we bow (in Islam)."

Here is the difference, --- In Mr Pickthall�s Translation it says, --- �One God and unto Him we have surrendered.�
--- In Yusul Ali�s Translation it says, �The one (True) God: To Him we bow (in Islam)."

I want you to notice one more thing --- I understand that in the translations, they added words in brackets to join sentences, or to clarify the meaning. --- but these added words were not in the Arabic.

In Pickthall 132, we would drop (saying) and (unto Him). In 136, we would drop (O Muslims.)

In Yusuf Ali 133, we would drop (True) and (in Islam). In 136 we would drop (in Islam).

So then the two above statements say this:
Pickthall 133 --- �One God, and unto Him we have surrendered.�
Yusuf Ali 133 --- �The one God: To Him we bow."

--- So Islam always meant �Surrender unto God,� did it not? Does it mean the same today?

And it speak of the Faith of Abraham in Galatians 3:
9 So then those who are of Faith are blessed with believing Abraham.
26 For you are all sons of God through Faith in Christ Jesus.
27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.
29 And if you are Christ�s, then you are Abraham�s seed, and heirs according to the promise.

--- So if we, as Christians are surrendered unto God in following the �Faith of Abraham,� --- what new thing, or what else, do you believe we need to know?

Placid

well behaved non believer vs bad behaved believer : Hi Rational, Quote: You say you...

Thu, 07 Mar 2013 08:38:43 +0000

Author: Placid
Subject: 24738
Posted: 07 March 2013 at 8:38am

Hi Rational,

Quote: You say you believe that Mohammad (pbuh) received "revelations" (as you put it), then you say Mohammad (pbuh) didn't receive anything new.

Response: --- In reading the Quran, the revelations concerning the history from the OT. --- And the messages of the Gospel in Surahs 3, 5, and 19, are in harmony with what is written in the NT. --- Since Muslims say that Muhammad was the final Prophet, --- Then I asked, �What new laws did he reveal in the Quran, that were not already written.�
Can you outline some with the verse reference in the Quran?

Your only answer so far is �Stop eating pig.� --- But that was never a rule for Gentiles. --- To clarify it, the Jewish leaders in the Jerusalem Church wrote to the Gentile Church in Antioch, Syria, in Acts 15:
28 For it seemed good to the Holy Spirit, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things:
29 that you abstain from things offered to idols, from blood, from things strangled, and from sexual immorality. If you keep yourselves from these, you will do well.

In the comparable verse in Surah 5:
3 Forbidden to you (for food) are: dead meat, blood, the flesh of swine, and that on which hath been invoked the name of other than God; that which hath been killed by strangling.

--- The simple instructions are that Gentile Christians were never restricted from eating pork, --- but Muslims are instructed not to eat it, so they shouldn�t

Are there any other things you can think of that Christians should know, that are written in the Quran?

Placid

well behaved non believer vs bad behaved believer : Originally posted by PlacidThis...

Wed, 06 Mar 2013 10:48:58 +0000

Author: Rational
Subject: 24738
Posted: 06 March 2013 at 10:48am

Originally posted by Placid

This is what I mean, --- if you understand that Webber and I are not trinitarians, then why did you address Webber as though all Christians believe the same?

I'll say this one more time, I didn't address Webber as though all Christians believe the same. Please stop putting words in my mouth. Stop it now!

You accused me that I enjoy using misinformation in my posts. I asked you to show us where I do this in my posts, give one example. But you ignore it.

You say you believe that Mohammad (pbuh) received "revelations" (as you put it), then you say Mohammad (pbuh) didn't receive anything new.

Edited by Rational - 06 March 2013 at 12:19pm

well behaved non believer vs bad behaved believer : Hi Rational, This is what I mean,...

Tue, 05 Mar 2013 10:09:53 +0000

Author: Placid
Subject: 24738
Posted: 05 March 2013 at 10:09am

Hi Rational,

This is what I mean, --- if you understand that Webber and I are not trinitarians, then why did you address Webber as though all Christians believe the same?

--- Let's get beyond the trinity and talk about a subject that is Scriptural.

For instance, 'well behaved people' in some circles may be blasphemers, who don't believe in God, either Christian or Muslim. --- Do you think that God's plan of salvation reaches to them, --- or even to those who don't acknowledge that Jesus was the Messiah?

well behaved non believer vs bad behaved believer : Assalam Alaik Placid, Originally...

Mon, 04 Mar 2013 13:11:12 +0000

Author: Rational
Subject: 24738
Posted: 04 March 2013 at 1:11pm

Assalam Alaik Placid,

Originally posted by Placid

Hi Rational,

I am sorry if I misunderstood, --- but on page 7 you responded this way to Webber.
Quote: Assalamu Alaik Webber,

Unlike the christians that claim that Jesus is God, muslims don't believe that Mohammad (pbuh) is God or part of God. Christians claim that because God loves us, He decided to reveal Himself and lived amongst those people for a while then volunteered to die for everyone. But God never revealed Himself before that. So what about the people before the arrival of God (ie. Jesus)? Were they aware about God's form (3 persons in 1) and about the diety of Jesus? Obviously they didn't. Therefore what will thier fate be? Were they not loved? Maybe they are excused because the truth came after thier time. Can that be?

--- It sounds like You are a bit �trinitarian� when you say �God decided to live among those people for awhile then volunteered to die, (Was that God that volunteered to die?) --- What about the people before the arrival of God (ie Jesus) --- Were they aware of God�s form (3 persons in 1)

It was because of this that I wanted to clarify, that I understand from Scripture that �The Word� came from heaven to indwell the human body of Jesus. Jesus had no earthly father, but God brought Him into �Being� by having His Holy Spirit impregnate Mary. --- So Jesus was born on earth, He had a flesh and blood body and therefore did not come from heaven. But the Word (Logos) was the Manifestation from God that indwelt Jesus, so, my simple understanding is that He had a human body, and a Divine Spirit.

You asked about the salvation of those before Jesus, I answered some, but there�s much more, so if you want to hear about what the Scripture says, I will give more.
When you ask a question I like to answer it if I can, but we get so easily sidetracked.

Placid

You misunderstood. I'm not a "trinitarian". Not even a bit. Allah is One, and I assure you He is not "three persons"! You know this already, I think. Not sure how you would think I'm a bit trinitarian. I clearly stated that "Christians claim that...". I'm saying christians say this, those that say Jesus is God.

well behaved non believer vs bad behaved believer : Hi Rational, I am sorry if I...

Sun, 03 Mar 2013 21:12:35 +0000

Author: Placid
Subject: 24738
Posted: 03 March 2013 at 9:12pm

Hi Rational,

I am sorry if I misunderstood, --- but on page 7 you responded this way to Webber.
Quote: Assalamu Alaik Webber,

Unlike the christians that claim that Jesus is God, muslims don't believe that Mohammad (pbuh) is God or part of God. Christians claim that because God loves us, He decided to reveal Himself and lived amongst those people for a while then volunteered to die for everyone. But God never revealed Himself before that. So what about the people before the arrival of God (ie. Jesus)? Were they aware about God's form (3 persons in 1) and about the diety of Jesus? Obviously they didn't. Therefore what will thier fate be? Were they not loved? Maybe they are excused because the truth came after thier time. Can that be?

--- It sounds like You are a bit �trinitarian� when you say �God decided to live among those people for awhile then volunteered to die, (Was that God that volunteered to die?) --- What about the people before the arrival of God (ie Jesus) --- Were they aware of God�s form (3 persons in 1)

It was because of this that I wanted to clarify, that I understand from Scripture that �The Word� came from heaven to indwell the human body of Jesus. Jesus had no earthly father, but God brought Him into �Being� by having His Holy Spirit impregnate Mary. --- So Jesus was born on earth, He had a flesh and blood body and therefore did not come from heaven. But the Word (Logos) was the Manifestation from God that indwelt Jesus, so, my simple understanding is that He had a human body, and a Divine Spirit.

You asked about the salvation of those before Jesus, I answered some, but there�s much more, so if you want to hear about what the Scripture says, I will give more.
When you ask a question I like to answer it if I can, but we get so easily sidetracked.

Placid

well behaved non believer vs bad behaved believer : Originally...

Sun, 03 Mar 2013 05:18:32 +0000

Author: Rational
Subject: 24738
Posted: 03 March 2013 at 5:18am

Originally posted by Caringheart

Originally posted by Rational

Originally posted by Placid

Did Muhammad introduce any new laws in the Quran that we should know about?

Yes, stop eating pig.

Greetings Rational,

That's actually not new... it's old... from the Torah.

Salaam,
Caringheart

Yes, precisely. And that would explain why Jesus (as) didn't eat pig, because it was in the Torah!

But the fact that you still eat it means it's a new law for you. So maybe it's time you stop eating pig

It's a stronger case for Placid because he believes the Quran. Here's what Placid said in another thread:

Originally posted by Placid

I believe that Muhammad received the revelations in the Quran from the angel Gabriel, who had originally appeared to him in a vision.
I have the highest regard for Muhammad and the Quran because I recognize the way God spoke to His Prophets. --- Some by visions, or through tragedies, some by inner inspiration, and some unexpectedly, like Moses, through a burning bush.

And I really respect Placid for saying that.

Notice he used the word "revelations".

The word "revelation":

1. A surprising and previously unknown fact, esp. one made in a dramatic way.

2. The making known of a secret or the unknown.

Therefore, it's obvious that Placid agrees that Mohammad (pbuh) received surprising and previously unknown facts. That's what Placid is saying himself. No?

Edited by Rational - 03 March 2013 at 6:24am

well behaved non believer vs bad behaved believer : Originally posted by Rational Originally...

Sat, 02 Mar 2013 10:07:39 +0000

Author: Caringheart
Subject: 24738
Posted: 02 March 2013 at 10:07am

Originally posted by Rational

Originally posted by Placid

Did Muhammad introduce any new laws in the Quran that we should know about?

Yes, stop eating pig.

Greetings Rational,

That's actually not new... it's old... from the Torah.

Salaam,
Caringheart

well behaved non believer vs bad behaved believer : Originally posted by Placidyou...

Sat, 02 Mar 2013 09:14:15 +0000

Author: Rational
Subject: 24738
Posted: 02 March 2013 at 9:14am

Originally posted by Placid

you seem to enjoy using that misinformation in your posts

Placid, please show us, from my posts, where I use misinformation and I enjoy using it. We're all waiting.

Edited by Rational - 02 March 2013 at 9:15am

well behaved non believer vs bad behaved believer : Assalm...

Sat, 02 Mar 2013 08:37:05 +0000

Author: Rational
Subject: 24738
Posted: 02 March 2013 at 8:37am

Assalm Alaik Placid,

Originally posted by Placid

Even though Webber and I have said we are not trinitarians... you seem to...

Placid, did I direct my initial post to you and Webber? No. Then why are you saying this? My initial post was for Caringheart, a trinitarian. I hope this is clear.

Originally posted by Placid

...you seem to enjoy using that misinformation in your posts...

Placid, you have accused me, you said that I "enjoy using that misinformation". You've made an allegation about me even though you have nothing to prove it. You simply decided to throw that in. So you know, I'm not a person that enjoys using misinformation. I wouldn't use misinformation, period. You say many things that I don't agree with, but I don't claim that you "enjoy using misinformation".

Originally posted by Placid

...which doesn�t allow you to think any other way.

What is it that doesn�t allow me to think any other way? The misinformation? And what is the way I should be thinking? Your way?

Originally posted by Placid

In saying �The message was always the same, to worship God,� --- this verifies that the former prophets had the same message as Muhammad brought, and so for those who believed and worshipped God, even before Jesus came, God must have had a plan of salvation for them, as well, don�t you think?

That is what I'm saying. And since you claimed in another thread that you believe that the Quran is sent to Mohammad (pbuh) from God (saw) through Gabriel (as), therefore the Quran is the final revelation from God. Then what's stopping you from following the final revelation and declaring that "Mohammad is the final messenger from God"?

Originally posted by Placid

When you say �Muhammad had received the final message for all mankind.� --- How was it different than the message that you say �was the same message for all the prophets?�

The core of the message was always the same, to worship Allah and non other. That is the fundamental part of the message. The differences were in the examples and the lessons that were passed with every messenger, and was relayed through the experiences, trials and tribulations that the prophets had to endure for us to learn from. The final message in the Quran isn't only from the time of Mohammad (pbuh), it's an account of all the prophets and messengers, starting from Adam (as). It's a blessing from our Creator. There was always one message, that Allah is One and not to worship anything other than Him (subhanaho wa ta'ala).

We relate to you, [O Muhammad], the best of stories in what We have revealed to you of this Qur'an although you were, before it, among the unaware. (3)

That is why prophets are given high status. They were chosen to take part in this message and they did so by going through hardship, suffering, trails, tribulations... That is what they did for the sake of Allah (subhanaho wa ta'la). And with the wisdom and blessings of Allah, they left knowledge for us to learn from.

Originally posted by Placid

Did Muhammad introduce any new laws in the Quran that we should know about?

Yes, stop eating pig.

Edited by Rational - 02 March 2013 at 3:03pm

well behaved non believer vs bad behaved believer : Originally posted by WebberI...

Sat, 02 Mar 2013 07:02:21 +0000

Author: Rational
Subject: 24738
Posted: 02 March 2013 at 7:02am

Originally posted by Webber

I get your point, but as you know, I'm not a trinitarian, so now how would you answer me?

That's why I was specific when I said "Unlike the christians that claim that Jesus is God". I'm talking about those christians.

My initial post question:

"What about all the people that lived before Jesus was born? Did Jesus love them? They didn't know about Jesus so will they inherit the kingdom of heaven?"

... was not for you. It was for Caringheart, a trinitarian.

well behaved non believer vs bad behaved believer : Hi Rational, Quote: Unlike the...

Fri, 01 Mar 2013 17:22:42 +0000

Author: Placid
Subject: 24738
Posted: 01 March 2013 at 5:22pm

Hi Rational,

Quote: Unlike the christians that claim that Jesus is God, muslims don't believe that Mohammad (pbuh) is God or part of God.
So what about the people before the arrival of Jesus? --- Therefore what will thier fate be? Were they not loved? Maybe they are excused because the truth came after thier time. Can that be?

On the other hand, muslims believe that all nations before Mohammad had the message sent to them through previous prophets and messengers. That Mohammad was a man, like previous messengers, and that he recieved the final message for all man kind. The message was always the same, to worship Allah and non other.

Response: --- Even though Webber and I have said we are not trinitarians, ---because that was a doctrine that came out of a Church meeting in 325 AD, and not out of the Scripture, --- you seem to enjoy using that misinformation in your posts, which doesn�t allow you to think any other way.
Jesus came from God, but was not God. --- God was �manifested� in different ways throughout the Scriptures, but in the New Testament God sent Jesus to be the Messenger of the New Covenant, and the Message was the Gospel, the Good News of Salvation, --- This came through Jesus Himself, --- who was not only a Messenger, but the Messiah and Savior, through whom we can obtain that salvation.

--- In saying �The message was always the same, to worship God,� --- this verifies that the former prophets had the same message as Muhammad brought, and so for those who believed and worshipped God, even before Jesus came, God must have had a plan of salvation for them, as well, don�t you think?

When you say �Muhammad had received the final message for all mankind.� --- How was it different than the message that you say �was the same message for all the prophets?� --- Did Muhammad introduce any new laws in the Quran that we should know about?

Concerning previous plans of salvation:
It appears that God always loved his people and drew them unto Himself, so He would have a plan for their salvation, though it would have to wait for a �resurrection.�
From the time of Adam and Eve on earth, they were told to worship God and obey Him. --- And the first guide was their �conscience� within.
It would seem that for the first approximately 2000 years, the people would be �saved� by Faith in God, worshiping Him, and following their conscience, which was a �God awareness� that was with them, --- even as it has been with mankind ever since.

From the time of Abraham for the next approximately 2000 years, men were �saved� by Faith in God, worshiping Him, and being obedient to the Law (that came at different times to Abraham, but mainly through Moses.)

--- However, in these 4000 years, including the time of Noah, --- the people that were righteous, were not taken to heaven, but remained in �death.�
Sad as it may have seemed, Satan had succeeded in spoiling God�s plan, so the dead all had to wait for a 'resurrection,' even as we believe will happen at the end of the Age.

This is interesting to think about in the Book of Daniel 12:
2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake,
Some to everlasting life,
Some to shame and everlasting contempt.
3 Those who are wise shall shine
Like the brightness of the firmament
And those who turn many to righteousness
Like the stars forever and ever.

(Enough for now)

Placid

well behaved non believer vs bad behaved believer : Originally posted by Nur_IlahiSalam...

Thu, 28 Feb 2013 22:04:40 +0000

Author: Webber
Subject: 24738
Posted: 28 February 2013 at 10:04pm

Originally posted by Nur_Ilahi

Salam Webber,

Sorry for the late reply. Been busy for a while.

No worries, real life has a way of getting in the way.

If you insist this is talking about Muhammad then you have to believe he came in his own name, not in the name of Allah. I ask again, does this sound like Muhammad?[/QUOTE]Muhammad came with his own name as a Messenger of God, with a clear message from God Almighty. Btw, we Muslims have this habit of saying "Bismillahirahmaneeraheem" - In the Name of Allah Most Gracious, Most Merciful.[/quote]

In the name of Allah, not in the name of Muhammad? That is what the text refers to is self appointed prophets using their own name, not the name of Allah.

I did'nt know that Chrisitans believe in purgatory. It is not exactly what it meant. Maybe for a clearer idea you can go here - http://www.onislam.net/english/ask-about-islam/faith-and-worship/islamic-creed/167126-heaven-and-hell-permanent-or-temporary.html

Some do, some don't, it's all part of which denomination suits you best,

I call cop-out. Allah knows best but has given very clear understanding in the Bible and the Quran what suicide is worth.

May Allah bless you with hidayah.

Thank you. No idea what it means, but know you enough to appreciate it.

well behaved non believer vs bad behaved believer : Originally posted by Rational Originally...

Thu, 28 Feb 2013 21:53:27 +0000

Author: Webber
Subject: 24738
Posted: 28 February 2013 at 9:53pm

Originally posted by Rational

Originally posted by Webber

As for all the people who died pre Jesus, I guess you could ask the same about all who died pre Muhammad.

Assalamu Alaik Webber,

Unlike the christians that claim that Jesus is God, muslims don't believe that Mohammad (pbuh) is God or part of God. Christians claim that because God loves us, He decided to reveal Himself and lived amongst those people for a while then volunteered to die for everyone. But God never revealed Himself before that. So what about the people before the arrival of God (ie. Jesus)? Were they aware about God's form (3 persons in 1) and about the diety of Jesus? Obviously they didn't. Therefore what will thier fate be? Were they not loved? Maybe they are excused because the truth came after thier time. Can that be?

On the other hand, muslims believe that all nations before Mohammad had the message sent to them through previous prophets and messengers. That Mohammad was a man, like previous messengers, and that he recieved the final message for all man kind. The message was always the same, to worship Allah and non other.

And those who disbelieved say, "Why has a sign not been sent down to him from his Lord?" You are only a warner, and for every people is a guide. (7)

And We did not send any messenger except [speaking] in the language of his people to state clearly for them, and Allah sends astray [thereby] whom He wills and guides whom He wills. And He is the Exalted in Might, the Wise. (4)

It is He who has sent among the unlettered a Messenger from themselves reciting to them His verses and purifying them and teaching them the Book and wisdom - although they were before in clear error (2)

I get your point, but as you know, I'm not a trinitarian, so now how would you answer me?

well behaved non believer vs bad behaved believer : Salam Webber, Sorry for the late...

Thu, 28 Feb 2013 18:46:30 +0000

Author: Nur_Ilahi
Subject: 24738
Posted: 28 February 2013 at 6:46pm

Salam Webber,

Sorry for the late reply. Been busy for a while.

Originally posted by Webber

If you insist this is talking about Muhammad then you have to believe he came in his own name, not in the name of Allah. I ask again, does this sound like Muhammad?

Muhammad came with his own name as a Messenger of God, with a clear message from God Almighty. Btw, we Muslims have this habit of saying "Bismillahirahmaneeraheem" - In the Name of Allah Most Gracious, Most Merciful.

Originally posted by Webber

You'll have to show me where God decided it was a good idea and adapted it.

Originally posted by Webber

I'll go along with supposed terrorist, but let's talk about a real suicide bomber for a second. First the kalimah shahadah, the the Allah scream, then the suicide. The sin comes after the call-out, bye-bye.

I am not God, I cannot judge a person's intention, especially if I am not related to him or her whatsoever. Remember Allah is Al-Aleem. Al-Ghafur - He knows the real reason for this guy's action. He is Al-Khabir - All Aware. Al-Adl - Most Just.

*{Certainly, Allah has cursed the unbelievers and prepared for them a blazing fire to dwell therein forever, they shall find neither protector nor helper. On the day when their faces are turned about in the fire, they shall say, "Would that we had obeyed Allah and obeyed the Messenger!"}* (Al-Ahzab 33: 64-66)
May Allah bless you with hidayah.

well behaved non believer vs bad behaved believer : Originally posted...

Thu, 28 Feb 2013 16:36:40 +0000

Author: Rational
Subject: 24738
Posted: 28 February 2013 at 4:36pm

Originally posted by Webber

As for all the people who died pre Jesus, I guess you could ask the same about all who died pre Muhammad.

well behaved non believer vs bad behaved believer : "The same straight path has...

Wed, 27 Feb 2013 11:02:14 +0000

Author: Caringheart
Subject: 24738
Posted: 27 February 2013 at 11:02am

"The same straight path has been revealed in both our books and we understand it to be the seeking and surrender to God's will."

well behaved non believer vs bad behaved believer : Originally posted by Nur_Ilahishall...

Tue, 26 Feb 2013 08:36:34 +0000

Author: Webber
Subject: 24738
Posted: 26 February 2013 at 8:36am

Originally posted by Nur_Ilahi

shall come in his own name, him ye will receive"

Originally posted by Webber

Does that sound like Muhammad to you?
Jesus was talking about a false prophet, not Muhammad.

If it was not Prophet Muhamamd, did they receive the false prophet?

Which false prophet would you like it to be? It's not like we've gone without.

If you insist this is talking about Muhammad then you have to believe he came in his own name, not in the name of Allah. I ask again, does this sound like Muhammad?

Christians, even trinitarians believe that there is no other God worthy of being worshipped but God and Jesus, His Messenger.

I didn't know Muslims believed in pergatory. Is this in the Quran?

The Bible teaches we get one life and one judgement. As I see it, Pergatory is a man made second chance. You'll have to show me where God decided it was a good idea and adapted it.

I'll go along with supposed terrorist, but let's talk about a real suicide bomber for a second. First the kalimah shahadah, the the Allah scream, then the suicide. The sin comes after the call-out, bye-bye.

While Mother Theresa if she died denying the Oneness of God, then only God knows.

I doubt she died denying the oneness of God, I'd believe she died believing in the trinity, but these two are not the same.

Anyway, judgement lies in the hands of God.

Ahhh, the one liner that should have stopped this thread after the first post.

I am a non-believer in the deity of Jesus (as) and in the idea that he died for my sins.

Will I, a non-believer, inherit the kingdom of heaven?

What about all the people that lived before Jesus was born? Did Jesus love them? They didn't know about Jesus so will they inherit the kingdom of heaven?

These are good questions.

The book of James had a lot of contraveresy before it was put in the NT for the same reason. James obviously a knew his brother Jesus to be a Prophet yet human, not God. Wonder where a disciple would be about now.

In the eyes of stodgey Christians you may be an unbeliever, but we know better. The same straight path has been revealed in both our books and we understand it to be the seeking and surrender to God's will.

As for all the people who died pre Jesus, I guess you could ask the same about all who died pre Muhammad.

well behaved non believer vs bad behaved believer : Greetings Rational,Good...

Mon, 25 Feb 2013 12:58:21 +0000

Author: Caringheart
Subject: 24738
Posted: 25 February 2013 at 12:58pm

Greetings Rational,

Good questions. I was actually just pondering those questions myself, this morning before I got up.

I have sort of a partial answer to your first question...
You will believe in Jesus when you meet Him on judgement day.

As to the rest... I am pondering.

The thing is I don't believe that just believing in Jesus(belief in God) gains admittance to heaven. I believe actions matter. Actions that come from a true heart and not just for show. God will judge the heart. Actions must be a reflection of a true heart... and if the heart is true it will show in the actions. Belief in Jesus, (love for God, because of the great the Love He has shown for us in the giving of His Son), leads me to good actions. Jesus leads me to the Father through Love, the love He first showed me.
¹⁶For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son

Jesus may very well say to anyone, 'You never knew me'... You only proclaimed to know me by proclaiming my name, but you did not do the things you were commanded to do... in your heart you never truly belonged to the Father.

¹⁹We love Him, because he first loved us.

²⁰If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

²¹And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.

Salaam,
CH

Edited by Caringheart - 25 February 2013 at 1:24pm

well behaved non believer vs bad behaved believer : Originally posted by CaringheartThis...

Mon, 25 Feb 2013 06:40:20 +0000

Author: Rational
Subject: 24738
Posted: 25 February 2013 at 6:40am

Originally posted by Caringheart

This makes it easier for me to see why muslims do not understand Jesus. It seems that muslims have an excuse for all their behavior, and so due to their own beliefs, by transference they assume this is the belief by followers of Jesus.

well behaved non believer vs bad behaved believer : In Islam the worst of a Muslim...

Sun, 24 Feb 2013 13:03:59 +0000

Author: Caringheart
Subject: 24738
Posted: 24 February 2013 at 1:03pm

This makes it easier for me to see why muslims do not understand Jesus. It seems that muslims have an excuse for all their behavior, and so due to their own beliefs, by transference they assume this is the belief by followers of Jesus.

well behaved non believer vs bad behaved believer : Dear Kristin, Originally posted...

Fri, 22 Feb 2013 01:59:08 +0000

Author: Nur_Ilahi
Subject: 24738
Posted: 22 February 2013 at 1:59am

Dear Kristin,

Originally posted by Kristin

�So then, Nur Ilahi.......Did Mother Theresa get to heaven before Muhammed Atta, or the other way around?

Muhammed Atta the supposed terrorist that was accused of 911? Well, in my opinion, if he is a Muslim and died as a Muslim, especially if he were executed by the authorities, meaning he knows when he will die, then most probably his place would be in heaven because he will have the chance to say the kalimah shahadah in his last moments before death.

While Mother Theresa if she died denying the Oneness of God, then only God knows. Anyway, judgement lies in the hands of God. He is Al-Alim - All Knowing and He is Al-Ghafur - Most Forgiving.

well behaved non believer vs bad behaved believer : In Islam the worst of a Muslim...

Thu, 21 Feb 2013 14:06:53 +0000

Author: Kristin
Subject: 24738
Posted: 21 February 2013 at 2:06pm

well behaved non believer vs bad behaved believer : Originally posted by Nur_Ilahi Originally...

Wed, 20 Feb 2013 14:28:05 +0000

Author: Kristin
Subject: 24738
Posted: 20 February 2013 at 2:28pm

Originally posted by Nur_Ilahi

Originally posted by nirvana

who goes to heaven.
this is for all christians and muslims people. will the most compassionate/honest/polite hindu/Buddhist go to hell while the most treacherous/lying/rude/murderous etc muslim/christian goes to heaven?

In Islam the worst of a Muslim is still better than the best of a non Muslim. What is the reason? Because even how bad that Muslim is, he still believes that there is no other God worthy of being worshipped but Allah and Prophet Muhammad is His Messenger. That person even though goes to hell at first, he would one day be transferred to heaven due to the Mercy of Allah Ar-Raheem Most Merciful.

While the best of a non-Muslim is still considered a kafir if he does not acknowledge that Allah the Creator of all the universe is the God worthy of being worshipped. But still we cannot do any judgement by ourselves. Allah is Al-Aleem (All Knowing) He knows what is in the heart of each and every one of His Creations.

well behaved non believer vs bad behaved believer : Salam Erin, I cannot forget the...

Tue, 19 Feb 2013 18:27:40 +0000

Author: Nur_Ilahi
Subject: 24738
Posted: 19 February 2013 at 6:27pm

Salam Erin,

I cannot forget the words that I read from one of the late Ahmad Deedat�s book. "The Bible is a compilation of God�s words, The Prophet�s words and the bulk of it are the words of a historian/scholars."

How do we base this? We base this on the Final Testament from Allah Our Creator � Alquran.

Originally posted by Salaam_Erin

Jesus says the Messenger will bring glory to Jesus.� (John 16:14)

In the Quran The Messenger relayed the message from God and glorify Jesus as a Prophet -
"Christ, the son of Mary, was no more than a messenger; many were the messengers that passed away before him. His mother was a woman of truth. They had both to eat their (daily) food. See how God makes His signs clear to them; yet see in what ways they are deluded away from the truth!" (5:75).

May the blessings of Allah be with you.

well behaved non believer vs bad behaved believer : When Muslims claim a Bible passage...

Tue, 19 Feb 2013 09:00:58 +0000

Author: Salaam_Erin
Subject: 24738
Posted: 19 February 2013 at 9:00am

When Muslims claim a Bible passage is about Muhammad then they are saying that the passage is authentic. So, Muslims need to ponder on these points Jesus made about the Messenger to come after Him:

In verse 17 Jesus says that the Messenger will be invisible, that His disciples already knew the Messenger who lived with them (this is AD 33 remember) and would be in them. So the Messenger is invisible, was alive in AD 33, the disciples knew Him and He had the power to live inside them.

In verse 26 the Father will send the Messenger in Jesus' Name. (As in on Jesus' authority.)

In the same verse the Messenger is to remind the disciples of everything that Jesus taught them.

In John 15:26 Jesus says HE Himself would send the Messenger- from the Father. So Jesus and the Father will jointly send the Messenger.

Jesus says the Messenger will bring glory to Jesus. (John 16:14)
I know the textual history of this passage, and I can assure you it has not been doctored. It is as John wrote it. Since this is so, and Muslims regard it as authentic, ask yourself a question. Is the Holy Spirit, the Messenger, Muhammad, or someone else?

well behaved non believer vs bad behaved believer : shall come in his own name, him...

Sun, 17 Feb 2013 05:19:08 +0000

Author: Nur_Ilahi
Subject: 24738
Posted: 17 February 2013 at 5:19am

shall come in his own name, him ye will receive"

Originally posted by Webber

Does that sound like Muhammad to you?
Jesus was talking about a false prophet, not Muhammad.

If it was not Prophet Muhamamd, did they receive the false prophet?

well behaved non believer vs bad behaved believer : Salam Caringheart. Whatever book...

Sun, 17 Feb 2013 05:12:12 +0000

Author: Nur_Ilahi
Subject: 24738
Posted: 17 February 2013 at 5:12am

Salam Caringheart.

Whatever book you read on Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him, first of all have an open heart and an open mind. InshaAllah (God willing) you will see the the world in a totally different perspective after reading it.

You may want to check it here. http://www.mysticsaint.info/2012/08/best-biography-prophet-muhammad-english.html

Edited by Nur_Ilahi - 17 February 2013 at 5:19am

well behaved non believer vs bad behaved believer : Be careful with the interpretation...

Sat, 16 Feb 2013 22:30:06 +0000

Author: Webber
Subject: 24738
Posted: 16 February 2013 at 10:30pm

Be careful with the interpretation of this verse. Muslims like it because Jesus mentions another coming after Him.They don't look at the text any closer.

"43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive." (these words were spoken by Jesus long before Muhammad came)

Did Muhammad come in his own name?

Check what verse 44 says;

How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?

Does that sound like Muhammad to you?

Jesus was talking about a false prophet, not Muhammad.

well behaved non believer vs bad behaved believer : Originally posted by Nur_IlahiTks...

Sat, 16 Feb 2013 10:55:52 +0000

Author: Caringheart
Subject: 24738
Posted: 16 February 2013 at 10:55am

Originally posted by Nur_Ilahi

Tks for the compliment Caringheart.

Greetings Nur_Ilahi,

You are quite welcome.

I remembered something you had said;

"Many new Muslims converted to Islam after reading his biography. They become humbled after knowing how he put others before him and how he showed the best example of a human being. "

and I wanted to ask, which Biography, do yo know?
I asked once before on the forums if someone could recommend a biography to read. Apparently Ghandi read one. Do you happen to know which biography that might have been? I am having trouble to find out.
Someone did recommend the one written by Karen Armstrong but I have only been able to get her book on Islam itself, not the biography of Muhammad... yet anyway. I try to get my books from the library. Don't have lots of money to be spending. The biography's I have read(on-line) about Muhammad do not show him in the perfect light that some seem to see him in. I've seen alot of good things but they are right there along with alot of bad things.
Thanks,
Caringheart

well behaved non believer vs bad behaved believer : Originally posted by Caringheart Originally...

Sat, 16 Feb 2013 03:21:51 +0000

Author: nirvana
Subject: 24738
Posted: 16 February 2013 at 3:21am

Originally posted by Caringheart

Originally posted by nirvana

you are no different than people since the beginning of time. that is why there is some form of religion in every culture all over the world. people use it as an explanation for things they do not understand or to give them comfort that this world/life carries more meaning than an elephant's/lion's. i do not know if God exists for sure because He has never revealed Himself to me.

There are thousands of religions and sects. They all believe that they are the only ones who have found the truth and will be saved and all those who don�t believe in what they believe will not be saved. So what do you do? You can�t believe in any god and be saved. You must believe in the right God. How do you know which god is the real McCoy and which ones are counterfeit? You have to use your reason. But when you use your reason you can�t believe in any god. The belief in God is based on faith not reason.

Now I have said it time and again that I am not against the belief in God. In fact if I could believe in God I would. Unfortunately I can�t.

If you want to believe in a god ask yourself which qualities are more godly and which ones are not. Will God be loving or vengeful?

When you believe in God you can be manipulated by any Tom, Dick and Harry who succeeds to make you believe that they have a message for you from God.

Let reason be your guide. We all have been endowed with enough reason to find our way. Assuming God exists, reason says that if you live an ethical life and don�t hurt others He will be pleased with you even if you never believed in Him. This is my wager. I believe in doing the right thing and living by the Golden Rule. I don�t do to others what I don�t like myself. And I can bet that even if there is a God he is wise enough and loving enough to not send me to hell for not believing in him. He does not give a damn whether we worship him or not. His self-esteem does not depend on the belief or disbelief of his creatures. If He exists, he probably cares about whether we have been good to others or not.

I have been telling people about the Golden Rule. I have been saying all along that beliefs don�t matter, what matter are our deeds.

I do not promote evil and do not condone it. If God exists, I assume he must be wiser than me. If so, I bet He will give a hoot about our beliefs and whether we praise him or not. He will judge us by our deeds. Don�t harm others. If God exists, that is all he cares about. He does not care about our beliefs.

Greetings Nirvana,I wonder, If you don't believe in a Creator, do you have thoughts on how life came to be, and do you have any concept of what is the purpose for life?� Is there any thing after this life?Thanks,Caringheart

1.A creator could exist but I do not know for sure.
2.everybody can choose what their purpose of life is.
3.i do not know if there is anything after this life. we probably rot and disappear.

well behaved non believer vs bad behaved believer : Originally posted by CaringheartGreetings...

Fri, 15 Feb 2013 23:30:24 +0000

Author: Nur_Ilahi
Subject: 24738
Posted: 15 February 2013 at 11:30pm

Originally posted by Caringheart

Greetings Nu_Ilahi,No offense meant because you are very sweet and I like you very much,but I said you would have to come out of your disillusionment to see.I accept you as you are and with your beliefs.Salaam,Caringheart

Tks for the compliment Caringheart.

well behaved non believer vs bad behaved believer : Greetings Nu_Ilahi,No offense...

Fri, 15 Feb 2013 20:50:02 +0000

Author: Caringheart
Subject: 24738
Posted: 15 February 2013 at 8:50pm

Greetings Nu_Ilahi,
No offense meant because you are very sweet and I like you very much,
but I said you would have to come out of your disillusionment to see.
I accept you as you are and with your beliefs.
Salaam,
Caringheart

well behaved non believer vs bad behaved believer : Greetings to you too Caringheart. Caringheart...

Fri, 15 Feb 2013 19:56:41 +0000

Author: Nur_Ilahi
Subject: 24738
Posted: 15 February 2013 at 7:56pm

Greetings to you too Caringheart.

Caringheart you wrote -
You will first have to be disillusioned to see, but nothing is 'blanked out', because it was never there, he was self-created.

Perhaps you have not read carefully your own Bible Caringheart. There are many many instances in the Bible that prophesied the coming of the Prophet, but of course it is safer for you to just ignore it right? Anyway, the Bible sad to say is a corrupted scripture. Prophet Jesus spoke Aramaic, but what you are reading is the translation copy of not even the original one.

and just as Christianity is a religion created by man,

Is this an acknowledgement? Then you are right. Because why? If you depend on your Bible, prove to us any verses in the Bible that says God chose Christianity or even named Christianity as the religion of His choice.

Islam is a religion created by man.
Disagreed.

Indeed Ad-Deen (i.e the System of Life) approved by Allah is Al-Islam (Submission to His Laws and Commands). The people of the Scripture differed for nothing but selfish envy among themselves, after the Knowledge has come to them. One who rejects Allah�s Revelations will find that His Law of Requital is swift in reckoning. Quran 3:19

and just as Christian is a label placed on those who follow Jesus,

Agreed. Christ=Christians

muslim is a label placed on those who follow the leadership of Muhammad.

Disagreed. Muhammad=Muhammadans - wrong. Those following the teachings of Muhammad are called Muslims- Submitting to the will of God Almighty.

All the words of the qur'an are the words given by Muhammad and you believe them because he himself claimed they were from God. This is where I believe that you have not read the Quran carefully Caringheart. Many new converts before converting to Islam, they read the Quran and feels as if God Almighty is speaking directly to them. The Quran is indeed a communication from God to men in the language men understand.

"43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive." (these words were spoken by Jesus long before Muhammad came)

There is some truth in this verse. It indeed is referring to Prophet Muhammad that many received with open arms.

Jesus Himself was that attribute, the manifestation of God's Love

I cannot disagree with this verse because the reason God Almighty sent all these prophets is due to His Love towards His Creations. He sent them as a guide for us to follow, to worship Him, to glorify Him. But sadly some misunderstood instead of glorifying Him, some glorified the Prophet instead. Yes, Jesus was the manifestation of God's Love, but Jesus was not the Creator of the whole universe.

I can refer you to the thread on this forum called, What is this something else.

Perhaps I missed that thread. But there would be other future threads that we can discuss in relating to Prophet Muhammad.

�If the people of the scripture [Christians and Jews> had believed, it would have been better for them; among them are some with faith, but most of them are corrupt.� Quran (3):110

Salam

well behaved non believer vs bad behaved believer : Originally posted by Nur_Ilahibut...

Thu, 14 Feb 2013 17:24:37 +0000

Author: Caringheart
Subject: 24738
Posted: 14 February 2013 at 5:24pm

Originally posted by Nur_Ilahi

but where the last and most important one is concerned, it is all blanked out.

Greetings Nur_Ilahi,

You will first have to be disillusioned to see, but nothing is 'blanked out', because it was never there, he was self-created.

and just as Christianity is a religion created by man, Islam is a religion created by man.
and just as Christian is a label placed on those who follow Jesus, muslim is a label placed on those who follow the leadership of Muhammad.

All the words of the qur'an are the words given by Muhammad and you believe them because he himself claimed they were from God.

"43 I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive." (these words were spoken by Jesus long before Muhammad came)

"This is where the Bible is lacking in the descriptions of God's vast attribute."

Jesus Himself was that attribute, the manifestation of God's Love.

"Care to tell me what do you disagree about Muhammad?"

I can refer you to the thread on this forum called, What is this something else.

Salaam,
Caringheart

Edited by Caringheart - 14 February 2013 at 9:53pm

well behaved non believer vs bad behaved believer : Originally posted by CaringheartGreetings...

Thu, 14 Feb 2013 17:07:15 +0000

Author: Nur_Ilahi
Subject: 24738
Posted: 14 February 2013 at 5:07pm

Originally posted by Caringheart

Greetings Nur_Ilahi,"First of all are you definitely sure that the Bible is God's words?"I am sure.� It only takes reading them to be convicted of their Truth.

I have no doubt there are some truth in the Bible. Whatever that does not contradict the Quran is acceptable. Afterall originally the Bible was called the Injil or the Gospel - meaning - The Good News. And what good news did the Injil is trying to bring? None other that we worship God The Creator and to expect the last Prophet the seal of all Prophets. But of course, with the manipulation of men, the Bible hid this very important message. I have always wondered, there are many stories of prophets in the Bible similar to the ones we have in the Quran, but where the last and most important one is concerned, it is all blanked out.

Christian is only a religion created by man, - Exactly! Man! A True religion is from God Almighty created by The Almighty for the servants of The Almighty.

a label put on the people who follow Jesus.�- If it is from God, God Himself should name it not man. A stamp of approval from none other than The Creator.

This Day, I have perfected your Law /DEEN for you, completed My favor upon you, and chosen for you Al-Islam as the System of Life. Quran 5:3

Originally posted by Caringheart

God only calls us to Love and we are called through Jesus.We are already separated from God by sin... the first sin, which was committed in the garden of Eden, and which separated God from man.� Man was no longer pure and God can not be in the presence of anything that is not pure.

True, God calls us to Love. Because the basis of Life is indeed Love. He is the Loving One - Al-Wadud. This is where the Bible is lacking in the descriptions of God's vast attribute. Yes agreed that God is pure - Al-Quddus. Once we sin, we are allowed to repent because he is Al-Afuw - The Pardoner.

Originally posted by Caringheart

It is Jesus who teaches us God's will, God's Love.� It is Jesus who leads us to God.� It is Jesus who purifies us to return to the presence of God

I do agree to some extent. Jesus was sent to the people of his time teaching God's love and teaching them how to purify their souls. That was the mission of all Prophets including Prophet Muhammad the Last Prophet. But the one who has the Power to purify is not Jesus but God Almighty. He is Al-Muqtadir - The Most Powerful.

Originally posted by Caringheart

and I completely disagree with you about Muhammad.� Perhaps you should do some more reading.Peace and blessings to you,Caringheart

Care to tell me what do you disagree about Muhammad? Perhaps it is you who should read about him. Many new Muslims converted to Islam after reading his biography. They become humbled after knowing how he put others before him and how he showed the best example of a human being.

well behaved non believer vs bad behaved believer : Originally posted by nirvanayou...

Thu, 14 Feb 2013 16:54:16 +0000

Author: Caringheart
Subject: 24738
Posted: 14 February 2013 at 4:54pm

Greetings Nirvana,

I wonder, If you don't believe in a Creator, do you have thoughts on how life came to be, and do you have any concept of what is the purpose for life? Is there any thing after this life?

Thanks,
Caringheart

Edited by Caringheart - 14 February 2013 at 4:54pm

well behaved non believer vs bad behaved believer : A perfect example of a human being....

Thu, 14 Feb 2013 16:26:46 +0000

Author: Nur_Ilahi
Subject: 24738
Posted: 14 February 2013 at 4:26pm

A perfect example of a human being. Every human being makes mistakes. So did Prophet Muhamamd. And what did he do when he made a mistake? He revert to Allah and asked for forgiveness. So should we. Allah indeed is Al-Ghafur - Most Forgiving.

"Perhaps Allah will put, between you and those to whom you have been enemies among them, affection. And Allah is competent, and Allah is Forgiving and Merciful." - Quran 60:7

Edited by Nur_Ilahi - 14 February 2013 at 4:31pm

well behaved non believer vs bad behaved believer : Greetings Nur_Ilahi,"First...

Thu, 14 Feb 2013 08:48:38 +0000

Author: Caringheart
Subject: 24738
Posted: 14 February 2013 at 8:48am

Greetings Nur_Ilahi,

"First of all are you definitely sure that the Bible is God's words?"
I am sure. It only takes reading them to be convicted of their Truth.
Christian is only a religion created by man, a label put on the people who follow Jesus. God only calls us to Love and we are called through Jesus.
We are already separated from God by sin... the first sin, which was committed in the garden of Eden, and which separated God from man. Man was no longer pure and God can not be in the presence of anything that is not pure.
It is Jesus who teaches us God's will, God's Love. It is Jesus who leads us to God. It is Jesus who purifies us to return to the presence of God.

and I completely disagree with you about Muhammad. Perhaps you should do some more reading.

Peace and blessings to you,
Caringheart

well behaved non believer vs bad behaved believer : Nur_Ilahi wrote:there is no other...

Thu, 14 Feb 2013 08:27:19 +0000

Author: Reepicheep
Subject: 24738
Posted: 14 February 2013 at 8:27am

Nur_Ilahi wrote: there is no other perfect example of a human being other than Prophet Muhammad

According to both the koran and hadith, Mohammad admitted that he was a sinner. For example:

That Allah may forgive thee of thy sin that which is past and that which is to come...Sura al-Fath 48:2

... O Allah! Forgive me my sins that I did in the past or will do in the future, and also the sins I did in secret or in public... Bukhari volume 9, book 93, number 482

If, as Mohammad admits, he was a sinner, then obviously Mohammad wasn't perfect.

well behaved non believer vs bad behaved believer : Salam Caringheart. You mentioned "What...

Thu, 14 Feb 2013 05:50:17 +0000

Author: Nur_Ilahi
Subject: 24738
Posted: 14 February 2013 at 5:50am

Salam Caringheart.

You mentioned
"What is not wrong is what I find in God's Word... the Bible."

First of all are you definitely sure that the Bible is God's words? Did God mention anything about Christians? Did He chose Christianity as the chosen religion?

"With Muhammad I gain nothing that I don't already have, without Jesus I lose everything."

From here I deduct that you are defying Jesus. It is as if Jesus was the one that created you, that gives the breath that you take, that created the earth that you stand on. But you forgot it is God Almighty that you ought to be appreciative of. Losing God Almighty means losing everything.
Perhaps you have not known Muhammad well. If you have known him or read the story of his life, you will acknowledge that there is no other perfect example of a human being other than Prophet Muhammad (May peace be with him). The best example of a human being every lived.

well behaved non believer vs bad behaved believer : Originally posted by Caringheart Originally...

Thu, 14 Feb 2013 01:22:35 +0000

Author: nirvana
Subject: 24738
Posted: 14 February 2013 at 1:22am

Originally posted by Caringheart

Originally posted by nirvana

Originally posted by Caringheart

Nirvana,Are you an athiest then... one who does not believe in God?� Or is there something else that you believe?Thanks for sharing if you will,Caringheart

i do not believe in any of the gods people worship, whether muslim, Christian,hindu etc. thtoo many loopholes/inconsistencies/contradictions. i cant believe in an all powerful, all knowing God.

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?
- Epicurus [341�270 B.C.]

Humans are more than capable of moral behavior, altruistic actions, inner peace and happiness on our own. We have a choice to make. We can choose to do what is right regardless of what religion tells us, or we can do what religion tells us, regardless if it is right.

Thanks Nirvana for your reply.So would it be correct to say that you believe in an intrinsic good?Do you believe in a life after death on earth?Do you believe that we were created for a purpose?� Or is life meaningless?Can you elaborate more on what you believe?� Do you believe in a Creator?I am very interested.See without a Creator I can see no purpose for life.� That, and I just really believe there is more.� I have always had a sense of knowing that there is more... that there is a Creator who does have a purpose for me, for all of this, and I am on a journey of discovery in this lifetime, knowing that it leads to more.� How about you?Caringheart

you are no different than people since the beginning of time. that is why there is some form of religion in every culture all over the world. people use it as an explanation for things they do not understand or to give them comfort that this world/life carries more meaning than an elephant's/lion's. i do not know if God exists for sure because He has never revealed Himself to me.

There are thousands of religions and sects. They all believe that they are the only ones who have found the truth and will be saved and all those who don�t believe in what they believe will not be saved. So what do you do? You can�t believe in any god and be saved. You must believe in the right God. How do you know which god is the real McCoy and which ones are counterfeit? You have to use your reason. But when you use your reason you can�t believe in any god. The belief in God is based on faith not reason.

Now I have said it time and again that I am not against the belief in God. In fact if I could believe in God I would. Unfortunately I can�t.

If you want to believe in a god ask yourself which qualities are more godly and which ones are not. Will God be loving or vengeful?

When you believe in God you can be manipulated by any Tom, Dick and Harry who succeeds to make you believe that they have a message for you from God.

Let reason be your guide. We all have been endowed with enough reason to find our way. Assuming God exists, reason says that if you live an ethical life and don�t hurt others He will be pleased with you even if you never believed in Him. This is my wager. I believe in doing the right thing and living by the Golden Rule. I don�t do to others what I don�t like myself. And I can bet that even if there is a God he is wise enough and loving enough to not send me to hell for not believing in him. He does not give a damn whether we worship him or not. His self-esteem does not depend on the belief or disbelief of his creatures. If He exists, he probably cares about whether we have been good to others or not.

I have been telling people about the Golden Rule. I have been saying all along that beliefs don�t matter, what matter are our deeds.

I do not promote evil and do not condone it. If God exists, I assume he must be wiser than me. If so, I bet He will give a hoot about our beliefs and whether we praise him or not. He will judge us by our deeds. Don�t harm others. If God exists, that is all he cares about. He does not care about our beliefs.

Edited by nirvana - 14 February 2013 at 12:20pm

well behaved non believer vs bad behaved believer : Originally posted by nirvana Originally...

Wed, 13 Feb 2013 21:50:35 +0000

Author: Caringheart
Subject: 24738
Posted: 13 February 2013 at 9:50pm

Originally posted by nirvana

Originally posted by Caringheart

Nirvana,Are you an athiest then... one who does not believe in God? Or is there something else that you believe?Thanks for sharing if you will,Caringheart

Thanks Nirvana for your reply.

So would it be correct to say that you believe in an intrinsic good?
Do you believe in a life after death on earth?
Do you believe that we were created for a purpose? Or is life meaningless?
Can you elaborate more on what you believe? Do you believe in a Creator?
I am very interested.

See without a Creator I can see no purpose for life. That, and I just really believe there is more. I have always had a sense of knowing that there is more... that there is a Creator who does have a purpose for me, for all of this, and I am on a journey of discovery in this lifetime, knowing that it leads to more. How about you?

Caringheart

Edited by Caringheart - 13 February 2013 at 9:53pm

well behaved non believer vs bad behaved believer : Originally posted by Caringheart Originally...

Wed, 13 Feb 2013 04:59:30 +0000

Author: nirvana
Subject: 24738
Posted: 13 February 2013 at 4:59am

Originally posted by Caringheart

Originally posted by nirvana

no. i do not choose an all powerful being who is supposed to be love itself but lets innocent people suffer.

Greetings Nirvana,Are you an athiest then... one who does not believe in God?� Or is there something else that you believe?Thanks for sharing if you will,Caringheart

well behaved non believer vs bad behaved believer : Hoping to hear back from Nirvana. ...

Tue, 12 Feb 2013 14:18:01 +0000

Author: Caringheart
Subject: 24738
Posted: 12 February 2013 at 2:18pm

Hoping to hear back from Nirvana.

well behaved non believer vs bad behaved believer : Greetings Hasan,I do not...

Tue, 12 Feb 2013 14:16:49 +0000

Author: Caringheart
Subject: 24738
Posted: 12 February 2013 at 2:16pm

Greetings Hasan,

I do not understand what you are saying or what these conclusions are that you are reaching.

Something I posted on another thread;

"I have delved deeply into every thing that is said, to weigh carefully whether the views I have held are clear and true."
It is this that allows me to realize that any one of us could find, in the end, that we have been wrong.
If anything saves me it may be my humility to accept this truth.

Do you have humility?

What is not wrong is what I find in God's Word... the Bible.
With Muhammad I gain nothing that I don't already have, without Jesus I lose everything.

If Muhammad was a prophet of God, then he too follows the teaching of Jesus, and thus is able to lead his people to God. But you must know Jesus,
and I do, know Him. This is not the same as 'having religion'.

I'm guessing that I confuse you because I am not one dimensional, or one-sided. I am open minded to the beliefs of others because I honestly don't believe God belongs in such a small box.

Salaam,
Caringheart

Edited by Caringheart - 12 February 2013 at 6:16pm

well behaved non believer vs bad behaved believer : Originally posted by CaringheartWhat...

Tue, 12 Feb 2013 12:55:56 +0000

Author: honeto
Subject: 24738
Posted: 12 February 2013 at 12:55pm

Originally posted by Caringheart

What was it someone said to me just the other day...

"I'm one of those bizarre types who think 'absolute certainty' of any flavour is actually dangerous. Especially my own. Scripture never persuades me and neither does poetry, unfortunately."

and my response to them;

"And I agree that you are right... claiming absolute certainty is
dangerous.� Then we are crossing the line into thinking we have the mind
of God.� Though I do believe in absolute authority, I would never
claim to be one to have it.� I know what I believe to be true.� I know
what seems right to me and will always try to guide others, but I also
can always acknowledge that any one of us could find that we are wrong
in the end."

May God bless and keep us from harm.

Caringheart,
I do not know what to believe of what you say. On this forum you have said before that you do not believe in religion and think that it is man made. And here you are with a religion. Are there two different people behind " Caringheart?
And how are you going to guide anyone, when yourself is lost. You could not even explain without contradicting let alone to convince one person about trinity, the core of your belief.
Hasan

well behaved non believer vs bad behaved believer : Originally posted by nirvanano....

Mon, 11 Feb 2013 14:54:37 +0000

Author: Caringheart
Subject: 24738
Posted: 11 February 2013 at 2:54pm

Originally posted by nirvana

no. i do not choose an all powerful being who is supposed to be love itself but lets innocent people suffer.

Greetings Nirvana,

Are you an athiest then... one who does not believe in God? Or is there something else that you believe?

Thanks for sharing if you will,
Caringheart

well behaved non believer vs bad behaved believer : Originally posted by Caringheart Originally...

Sun, 10 Feb 2013 11:25:06 +0000

Author: nirvana
Subject: 24738
Posted: 10 February 2013 at 11:25am

Originally posted by Caringheart

Originally posted by nirvana

� I do believe that all who are chosen by God

guess i have not been 'chosen'

Greetings Nirvana,"when the time comes for it"� [IMG]smileys/smiley1.gif" align="absmiddle" alt="Smile" /> The time has not yet come."I have an open mind to the idea that there are other choices besides the
kingdom of God and hell.� My choice is that I want to be with Jesus." Do you choose Him?Salaam,Caringheart

no. i do not choose an all powerful being who is supposed to be love itself but lets innocent people suffer.

well behaved non believer vs bad behaved believer : Originally posted by nirvana...

Fri, 08 Feb 2013 10:55:34 +0000

Author: Caringheart
Subject: 24738
Posted: 08 February 2013 at 10:55am

Originally posted by nirvana

I do believe that all who are chosen by God

guess i have not been 'chosen'

Greetings Nirvana,

"when the time comes for it"
The time has not yet come.

"I have an open mind to the idea that there are other choices besides the kingdom of God and hell. My choice is that I want to be with Jesus."
Do you choose Him?

Salaam,
Caringheart

Edited by Caringheart - 08 February 2013 at 10:56am

well behaved non believer vs bad behaved believer : Originally posted by Caringheart Originally...

Thu, 07 Feb 2013 03:26:22 +0000

Author: nirvana
Subject: 24738
Posted: 07 February 2013 at 3:26am

Originally posted by Caringheart

Originally posted by nirvana

Originally posted by Caringheart

What was it someone said to me just the other day...

"I'm one of those bizarre types who think 'absolute certainty' of any flavour is actually dangerous. Especially my own. Scripture never persuades me and neither does poetry, unfortunately."

and my response to them;

"And I agree that you are right... claiming absolute certainty is
dangerous.� Then we are crossing the line into thinking we have the mind
of God.� Though I do believe in absolute authority, I would never
claim to be one to have it.� I know what I believe to be true.� I know
what seems right to me and will always try to guide others, but I also
can always acknowledge that any one of us could find that we are wrong
in the end."

May God bless and keep us from harm.

so you are not sure christianity is the right way. good to know

Greetings Nirvana,I think there is good in all people, and that God will choose from among all of us, who it was that best served Him.� I do believe that all who are chosen by God will see the Truth of Jesus though, when the time comes for it... and that indeed, this will be a prerequisite to admittance into the kingdom of God.� I have an open mind to the idea that there are other choices besides the kingdom of God and hell.� My choice is that I want to be with Jesus.Peace,CaringheartIn my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you.� (the words of Jesus)

I do believe that all who are chosen by God

guess i have not been 'chosen'

well behaved non believer vs bad behaved believer : Originally posted by...

Wed, 06 Feb 2013 09:44:13 +0000

Author: Caringheart
Subject: 24738
Posted: 06 February 2013 at 9:44am

Originally posted by nirvana

Originally posted by Caringheart

What was it someone said to me just the other day...

"I'm one of those bizarre types who think 'absolute certainty' of any flavour is actually dangerous. Especially my own. Scripture never persuades me and neither does poetry, unfortunately."

and my response to them;

"And I agree that you are right... claiming absolute certainty is
dangerous. Then we are crossing the line into thinking we have the mind
of God. Though I do believe in absolute authority, I would never
claim to be one to have it. I know what I believe to be true. I know
what seems right to me and will always try to guide others, but I also
can always acknowledge that any one of us could find that we are wrong
in the end."

May God bless and keep us from harm.

so you are not sure christianity is the right way. good to know

Greetings Nirvana,

I think there is good in all people, and that God will choose from among all of us, who it was that best served Him. I do believe that all who are chosen by God will see the Truth of Jesus though, when the time comes for it... and that indeed, this will be a prerequisite to admittance into the kingdom of God. I have an open mind to the idea that there are other choices besides the kingdom of God and hell. My choice is that I want to be with Jesus.

Peace,
Caringheart

In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. (the words of Jesus)

Edited by Caringheart - 06 February 2013 at 9:51am

well behaved non believer vs bad behaved believer : Originally posted by CaringheartWhat...

Tue, 05 Feb 2013 05:43:59 +0000

Author: nirvana
Subject: 24738
Posted: 05 February 2013 at 5:43am

Originally posted by Caringheart

What was it someone said to me just the other day...

"I'm one of those bizarre types who think 'absolute certainty' of any flavour is actually dangerous. Especially my own. Scripture never persuades me and neither does poetry, unfortunately."

and my response to them;

"And I agree that you are right... claiming absolute certainty is
dangerous.� Then we are crossing the line into thinking we have the mind
of God.� Though I do believe in absolute authority, I would never
claim to be one to have it.� I know what I believe to be true.� I know
what seems right to me and will always try to guide others, but I also
can always acknowledge that any one of us could find that we are wrong
in the end."

May God bless and keep us from harm.

so you are not sure christianity is the right way. good to know

well behaved non believer vs bad behaved believer : What was it someone said to me...

Mon, 04 Feb 2013 19:30:47 +0000

Author: Caringheart
Subject: 24738
Posted: 04 February 2013 at 7:30pm

What was it someone said to me just the other day...

"I'm one of those bizarre types who think 'absolute certainty' of any flavour is actually dangerous. Especially my own. Scripture never persuades me and neither does poetry, unfortunately."

and my response to them;

"And I agree that you are right... claiming absolute certainty is dangerous. Then we are crossing the line into thinking we have the mind of God.
Though I do believe in absolute authority, I would never claim to be one to have it. I know what I believe to be true. I know what seems right to me and will always try to guide others, but I also can always acknowledge that any one of us could find that we are wrong in the end."

May God bless and keep us from harm.

well behaved non believer vs bad behaved believer : Originally posted by Webber So...

Mon, 04 Feb 2013 19:13:17 +0000

Author: Nur_Ilahi
Subject: 24738
Posted: 04 February 2013 at 7:13pm

Originally posted by Webber

So if a Muslim man decided to orchestrate a genocide of Christians he may not even have to repent...

Hi Webber,
Pls read my post carefully.

Originally posted by Nur_Ilahi

However if he was a Muslim man full of repentance, InshaAllah - God Willing, he will enter heaven because dont ever forget that Allah is Al-Ghafur (Most Forgiving).

Tks.

well behaved non believer vs bad behaved believer : Caringheart, ..no we don't....

Mon, 04 Feb 2013 15:08:19 +0000

Author: honeto
Subject: 24738
Posted: 04 February 2013 at 3:08pm

Caringheart,

..no we don't. We only convey what God has said, nothing from ourselves.
What I wrote above is from those respective sources.
Here is the Bible's version:
Matthew 12:31
"Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men."

And here is the Final Testament.
4:48 (Y. Ali) "Allah forgiveth not that partners should be set up with Him; but He forgiveth anything else, to whom He pleaseth; to set up partners with Allah is to devise a sin Most heinous indeed."

Bring your proof if you speak the truth, most certainly, you cannot!
Hasan

well behaved non believer vs bad behaved believer : I love the way people think they...

Sat, 02 Feb 2013 16:37:26 +0000

Author: Caringheart
Subject: 24738
Posted: 02 February 2013 at 4:37pm

I love the way people think they can decide what God will do.
I do not pretend to have the 'mind of God'.

�Can you fathom the mysteries of God?
Can you probe the limits of the Almighty?
⁸They are higher than the heavens above�what can you do?
They are deeper than the depths below�what can you know?" - Job 11

well behaved non believer vs bad behaved believer : Originally posted by nirvanawho...

Sat, 02 Feb 2013 14:16:06 +0000

Author: honeto
Subject: 24738
Posted: 02 February 2013 at 2:16pm

Originally posted by nirvana

who goes to heaven.

this is for all christians and muslims people. will the most compassionate/honest/polite hindu/Buddhist go to hell while the most treacherous/lying/rude/murderous etc muslim/christian goes to heaven?

nirvana,
the answer is simple and it is not from myself rather from the one who know us and knows what we do not know. I have studied the Bible and the Quran, and according to both of them God will not forgive the sin of serving and worshiping anyone other than Him. Also it is important to know that God is forgiving so even if the worst sinner comes to Him and seeks His forgiveness and follow His guidance he/she will find God Forgiving and Merciful. So as long as the person is not worshiping what God has created there is a chance, but you have to ask for it!
Hasan

well behaved non believer vs bad behaved believer : So if a Muslim man decided...

Sat, 02 Feb 2013 08:32:49 +0000

Author: Webber
Subject: 24738
Posted: 02 February 2013 at 8:32am

So if a Muslim man decided to orchestrate a genocide of Christians he may not even have to repent...

well behaved non believer vs bad behaved believer : Originally posted by nirvanalet's...

Sat, 02 Feb 2013 07:24:22 +0000

Author: Nur_Ilahi
Subject: 24738
Posted: 02 February 2013 at 7:24am

Originally posted by nirvana

let's say a christian man orchestrates a genocide of hindus and after millions die cruel deaths, he is overcome with guilt and repents. will he go to heaven while is hindu victims go to hell?

If it were a Christian man, theoretically, he still goes to hell together with the hindu victims. Still, we cannot be judges of other people's intentions. That we have to leave to God Almighty because he is Al-Aleem - All knowing.

However if he was a Muslim man full of repentance, InshaAllah - God Willing, he will enter heaven because dont ever forget that Allah is Al-Ghafur (Most Forgiving).

well behaved non believer vs bad behaved believer : Originally posted by TG12345 Originally...

Fri, 01 Feb 2013 09:20:57 +0000

Author: nirvana
Subject: 24738
Posted: 01 February 2013 at 9:20am

Originally posted by TG12345

Originally posted by nirvana

who goes to heaven.

this is for all christians and muslims people. will the most compassionate/honest/polite hindu/Buddhist go to hell while the most treacherous/lying/rude/murderous etc muslim/christian goes to heaven?

A Christian who is murderous/rude/lying/treacherous and doesn't try to change it is a person who is consciously and willingly living in sin and does not have the Holy Spirit inside him/her. Regardless of what he or she says, that person does not believe in Christ or try to follow Him, and therefore is not a Christian.

let's say a christian man orchestrates a genocide of hindus and after millions die cruel deaths, he is overcome with guilt and repents. will he go to heaven while is hindu victims go to hell?

well behaved non believer vs bad behaved believer : you have to worship the one true...

Fri, 01 Feb 2013 00:16:23 +0000

Author: Mahdi The Seeke
Subject: 24738
Posted: 01 February 2013 at 12:16am

you have to worship the one true GOD and obey GOD'S laws to gain paradise.

Edited by Mahdi The Seeke - 01 February 2013 at 11:40pm

well behaved non believer vs bad behaved believer : I don't presume to know or...

Thu, 31 Jan 2013 23:15:20 +0000

Author: Caringheart
Subject: 24738
Posted: 31 January 2013 at 11:15pm

I don't presume to know or decide who God will allow into heaven. I do believe that all, whether they have been Buddhist, Hindu, sunni, shia, or sufi, mormon, Jehovah's witness, Catholic, protestant, Methodist, or any other religion, will come at the end of times to see the truth that is Jesus, and that this will be a pre-cursor to entry.

well behaved non believer vs bad behaved believer : Originally posted by nirvanaso,...

Thu, 31 Jan 2013 17:17:59 +0000

Author: Nur_Ilahi
Subject: 24738
Posted: 31 January 2013 at 5:17pm

Originally posted by nirvana

so, belief in a supernatural being is better than treating others well?

Dear Nirvana,

In Islam if you want to be the best of a human being, there are two kinds of relationship that you have to maintain.
First Habluminallah - Your relationship with Allah (vertical)
Second Habluminanaas - Your relationship with other people (horizontal)
Then your life is stable/complete. Near perfect.

So believing in the Supernatural being - if you mean God, and at the same time doing bad to others, that means your life is unstable/incomplete. The faith is still not strong.

well behaved non believer vs bad behaved believer : Originally posted by WebberI...

Thu, 31 Jan 2013 13:46:51 +0000

Author: nospam001
Subject: 24738
Posted: 31 January 2013 at 1:46pm

Originally posted by Webber

I believe a Buddhist who truly seeks God will find Him in one place, and will forget his other gods.

Which other gods might those be, for a Buddhist?

Originally posted by Nur Ilahi

In Islam the worst of a Muslim is still better than the best of a non Muslim.

Ok so maybe Caringheart was wrong and this belief is not reinforced daily as part of the salah. So where does it come from?

Originally posted by nirvana

so, belief in a supernatural being is better than treating others well?

But only if you are lucky and choose the right one to believe in.

well behaved non believer vs bad behaved believer : Originally posted by Nur_Ilahi Originally...

Thu, 31 Jan 2013 08:32:33 +0000

Author: nirvana
Subject: 24738
Posted: 31 January 2013 at 8:32am

Originally posted by Nur_Ilahi

so, belief in a supernatural being is better than treating others well?

well behaved non believer vs bad behaved believer : Originally posted by nirvanawho...

Thu, 31 Jan 2013 07:02:29 +0000

Author: Nur_Ilahi
Subject: 24738
Posted: 31 January 2013 at 7:02am

well behaved non believer vs bad behaved believer : Originally posted by TG12345 Originally...

Thu, 31 Jan 2013 00:10:24 +0000

Author: nirvana
Subject: 24738
Posted: 31 January 2013 at 12:10am

Originally posted by TG12345

Originally posted by nirvana

who goes to heaven.

this is for all christians and muslims people. will the most compassionate/honest/polite hindu/Buddhist go to hell while the most treacherous/lying/rude/murderous etc muslim/christian goes to heaven?

what if A Christian who is murderous/rude/lying/treacherous repents. then he will go to heaven and the good-doing hindu will go to hell?

well behaved non believer vs bad behaved believer : I believe a Buddhist who truly...

Wed, 30 Jan 2013 23:12:33 +0000

Author: Webber
Subject: 24738
Posted: 30 January 2013 at 11:12pm

I believe a Buddhist who truly seeks God will find Him in one place, and will forget his other gods.

God knows our hearts and the faces we wear. Bad enough we are sinners while doing our best.

There is a Christian doctrine that says once saved, always saved, but as our friend Mahdi the seeker pointed out (inadvertantly) in another thread, the one who turns away dies as well.

well behaved non believer vs bad behaved believer : Originally posted by nirvanawho...

Wed, 30 Jan 2013 19:45:36 +0000

Author: TG12345
Subject: 24738
Posted: 30 January 2013 at 7:45pm

Originally posted by nirvana

who goes to heaven.

this is for all christians and muslims people. will the most compassionate/honest/polite hindu/Buddhist go to hell while the most treacherous/lying/rude/murderous etc muslim/christian goes to heaven?

well behaved non believer vs bad behaved believer : who goes to heaven. this is for...

Tue, 29 Jan 2013 07:45:46 +0000

Author: nirvana
Subject: 24738
Posted: 29 January 2013 at 7:45am

who goes to heaven.

this is for all christians and muslims people. will the most compassionate/honest/polite hindu/Buddhist go to hell while the most treacherous/lying/rude/murderous etc muslim/christian goes to heaven?