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  <title>IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : ALL Christians will go to HELL</title>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :  Greetings Rational,I have started...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=174634#174634</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=69566">Caringheart</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 02 March 2013 at 10:28am<br /><br />Greetings Rational,<br><br>I have started many threads with proofs that were denied posting, and even though the moderators have eased up a bit I have given up expending my energy in this way.&nbsp; I try to just converse.<br><br>You're going to bring the religion thing into this thread?&nbsp; I believe in Jesus Christ, I guess that makes me 'Christian', if I must have a label, but this has nothing to do with the 'religion' of Christianity.&nbsp;&nbsp; I simply follow the ways of Christ, not a certain church, but God and His scriptures.<br><blockquote>"Let's see what they have to say about Allah, Mohammad, the Quran and Islam in general..."<br></blockquote>I have seen, and experienced, the hostile reactions... personal attacks, not simply addressing the questions... whenever a differing opinion on these matters is expressed.&nbsp; Questions have only infrequently been met with calm, cool heads, and relevant responses.&nbsp; Certain posters are much better than others at accepting that not everyone sees matters the way that they do and will try to offer explanations.&nbsp; But to me, this is why we talk... why we converse and exchange with each other... to grow better in understanding. :-)<br><br>Salaam,<br>Caringheart<br><span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by Caringheart - 02 March 2013 at 10:31am</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Sat, 02 Mar 2013 10:28:57 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :   Originally posted by Idil Originally...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=174629#174629</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71774">Rational</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 02 March 2013 at 6:36am<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Idil</strong></em><br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br /><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />I am also certain that a similar thread with reference to muslims and muslim belief, would never have been allowed, and even if it were, would it have received the same patient replies?</div>Caringheart, can you explain what you mean? Did muslims offend you in this thread?</div> <br> Asalamu Calykum there,<br><br>I am sure insulting one`s religion is not the way forward as ALLAH has mentioned to us, not insult their gods in case they might insult our Lord. And also when we are inviting others to our religion we should not do this in a harsh way as ALLAH when he sent Musa to the pharaoh he was commanded to be soft in speech and I am sure no one is worst than the pharaoh. Also, we never know who is actually destined for Hell, as nowadays many Christian and other faith are converting to Islam. Furthermore, what really determines whether one is destined for hell is their end, for this reason, no one knows who might have a good end or bad which goes out to everyone of every faith. As I am sure all of us have heard of the hadith whereby our prophet mentioned that one might live Islam all his life and be religious and he does something towards his end which makes him of the people of the hell fire and then there might be someone who does not live by Islam and yet does something towards his end which makes him of the people of paradise. Lets all remember this, before we say this Group of people will go to hell fire. I am no way saying that their religion is correct as I know the one I am on is the correct way.</div><br>Sister Idil, Why are you answering a question directed at Caringheart? <br><br>You're welcome to answer the questions that I asked you.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br />What do you find despicable? A christian tells you to worship Jesus, that he died for your sins, and if you don't worship him you're doomed to hell, and Mohammad is a false prophet, and God is three persons in one, and to worship and glorify something other than Allah (subhanaho wa ta'ala) etc. Don't you agree that worshiping Jesus is shirk? What does the Quran say about shirk? <br><br>Now what's better, to ignore them and let them continue with this shirk or to advise them and make them aware of the consequences of shirk? What would our beloved prophet expect from us because he cares for all of us believers and non-believers? <br><br>Despicable is a strong word. There is nothing to be ashamed of, there is no hate. If I said something that makes you ashamed then you better tell me what it is I said and be clear about it.<br></div><br>]]>
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   <pubDate>Sat, 02 Mar 2013 06:36:03 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :      Assalamo Alaikom Originally...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=174628#174628</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71774">Rational</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 02 March 2013 at 6:00am<br /><br />Assalamo Alaikom<br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />Could I have started a thread that said;<br>All muslims will go to hell?<br></div><br>Ofcourse you can. No one is stopping you. Start this thread and provide your evidence. Stop speculating.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />Let me state however that I would never presume to make such a statement.</div><br>Then don't ask the question whether you can start that thread or not. Be a man and go start that thread, provide your evidence and find out for yourself what will happen. Stop speculating.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br /><u>I think the <b>Christians</b> have been very patient in the face of such an offensive statement</u> as the one made by the poster of this thread, and in the face of many other offensive statements that have been made towards their belief, on the forum.</div><br>Are you saying you're a christian, Caringheart? Didn't you tell us that you don't believe in religion? Surely you can't be a christian if you don't believe in the christian <u>religion</u>.<br><br>You say christians have been patient. What about muslims, haven't they<i> </i>been patient? Maybe we should do a quick search on this forum and see how "friendly" and "patient" many of the christians are. Let's see what they have to say about Allah, Mohammad, the Quran and Islam in general... We can both play that game.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />Are all others allowed this same freedom to express their doubts and beliefs?</div><br>You can start that thread and find out for yourself. Otherwise don't speculate.<br><br>btw, are you male or female?<br><span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by Rational - 02 March 2013 at 6:06am</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Sat, 02 Mar 2013 06:00:36 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL : Salaams Caring heartYou are...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=174610#174610</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=70945">Idil</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 01 March 2013 at 8:28am<br /><br />Salaams Caring heart<br /><br />You are welcome. ]]>
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   <pubDate>Fri, 01 Mar 2013 08:28:41 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :  Originally posted by Rational Originally...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=174609#174609</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=70945">Idil</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 01 March 2013 at 8:22am<br /><br /> <div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />I am also certain that a similar thread with reference to muslims and muslim belief, would never have been allowed, and even if it were, would it have received the same patient replies?</div>Caringheart, can you explain what you mean? Did muslims offend you in this thread?<br /><br /><br /><br /></div> <br /> Asalamu Calykum there,<br /><br />I am sure insulting one`s religion is not the way forward as ALLAH has mentioned to us, not insult their gods in case they might insult our Lord. And also when we are inviting others to our religion we should not do this in a harsh way as ALLAH when he sent Musa to the pharaoh he was commanded to be soft in speech and I am sure no one is worst than the pharaoh. Also, we never know who is actually destined for Hell, as nowadays many Christian and other faith are converting to Islam. Furthermore, what really determines whether one is destined for hell is their end, for this reason, no one knows who might have a good end or bad which goes out to everyone of every faith. As I am sure all of us have heard of the hadith whereby our prophet mentioned that one might live Islam all his life and be religious and he does something towards his end which makes him of the people of the hell fire and then there might be someone who does not live by Islam and yet does something towards his end which makes him of the people of paradise. Lets all remember this, before we say this Group of people will go to hell fire. I am no way saying that their religion is correct as I know the one I am on is the correct way.<span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by Idil - 01 March 2013 at 8:26am</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Fri, 01 Mar 2013 08:22:40 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :     Originally posted by Rational  Originally...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=174594#174594</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=69566">Caringheart</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 28 February 2013 at 3:19pm<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />I am also certain that a similar thread with reference to muslims and muslim belief, would never have been allowed, and even if it were, would it have received the same patient replies?</div><br>Caringheart, can you do us all a favour and explain what you mean by this?<br></div><br>Greetings Rational,<br><br>Could I have started a thread that said;<br>All muslims will go to hell?<br><br>Let me state however that I would never presume to make such a statement.&nbsp; I am in total agreement with Idil that;<br><blockquote>"Only ALLAH knows who will enter hell and who will not and the judgement is truly His. Lets me compassionate towards each other and pray for each other guidance." <br></blockquote>I think the Christians have been very patient in the face of such an offensive statement as the one made by the poster of this thread, and in the face of many other offensive statements that have been made towards their belief, on the forum.<br>And this is ok.&nbsp; We are each entitled to our own beliefs, and to expressing what we believe, no matter how offensive that may be to some.<br>Are all others allowed this same freedom to express their doubts and beliefs?<br><br>Salaam,<br>Caringheart<br><br><span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by Caringheart - 28 February 2013 at 3:28pm</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Thu, 28 Feb 2013 15:19:21 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :      Originally posted by...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=174593#174593</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71774">Rational</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 28 February 2013 at 3:12pm<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />I am also certain that a similar thread with reference to muslims and muslim belief, would never have been allowed, and even if it were, would it have received the same patient replies?</div><br>Caringheart, can you explain what you mean? Did muslims offend you in this thread?<br><span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by Rational - 28 February 2013 at 5:10pm</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Thu, 28 Feb 2013 15:12:58 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :          Originally posted...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=174590#174590</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71774">Rational</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 28 February 2013 at 12:58pm<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Idil</strong></em><br /><br />Asalamu Calykum all,<br><br>Was this thread really necessary? I am really ashamed on how some Muslims within our community can act in such a despicable way. I am sure our beloved prophet was never condemning nor saying to people of other faiths that they would go to hell. Instead our beloved prophet was worried about them and for their guidance. It is time that we followed this practice. Only ALLAH knows who will enter hell and who will not and the judgement is truly His. Lets me compassionate towards each other and pray for each other guidance.</div>What do you find despicable? A christian tells you to worship Jesus, that he died for your sins, and if you don't worship him you're doomed to hell, and Mohammad is a false prophet, and God is three persons in one, and to worship and glorify something other than Allah (subhanaho wa ta'ala) etc. Don't you agree that worshiping Jesus is shirk? What does the Quran say about shirk? <br><br>Now what's better, to ignore them and let them continue with this shirk or to advise them and make them aware of the consequences of shirk? What would our beloved prophet expect from us because he cares for all of us believers and non-believers? <br><br>Despicable is a strong word. There is nothing to be ashamed of, there is no hate. If I said something that makes you ashamed then you better tell me what it is I said and be clear about it.<br><span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by Rational - 28 February 2013 at 5:12pm</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Thu, 28 Feb 2013 12:58:27 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :   Originally posted by IdilAsalamu...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=174571#174571</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=69566">Caringheart</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 27 February 2013 at 10:57am<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Idil</strong></em><br /><br />Asalamu Calykum all,<br><br>Was this thread really necessary? I am really ashamed on how some Muslims within our community can act in such a despicable way. I am sure our beloved prophet was never condemning nor saying to people of other faiths that they would go to hell. Instead our beloved prophet was worried about them and for their guidance. It is time that we followed this practice. Only ALLAH knows who will enter hell and who will not and the judgement is truly His. Lets me compassionate towards each other and pray for each other guidance.</div><br><br>Thank you Idil,<br><br>I am also certain that a similar thread with reference to muslims and muslim belief, would never have been allowed, and even if it were, would it have received the same patient replies?<br><br>"Only ALLAH knows who will enter hell and who will not and the judgement is truly His. Lets me compassionate towards each other and pray for each other guidance." <img src="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/smileys/smiley20.gif" border="0" align="absmiddle" alt="Thumbs%20Up" /><br><br>Salaam,<br>Caringheart<br>]]>
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   <pubDate>Wed, 27 Feb 2013 10:57:24 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL : Asalamu Calykum all,Was this...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=174557#174557</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=70945">Idil</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 26 February 2013 at 2:32pm<br /><br />Asalamu Calykum all,<br /><br />Was this thread really necessary? I am really ashamed on how some Muslims within our community can act in such a despicable way. I am sure our beloved prophet was never condemning nor saying to people of other faiths that they would go to hell. Instead our beloved prophet was worried about them and for their guidance. It is time that we followed this practice. Only ALLAH knows who will enter hell and who will not and the judgement is truly His. Lets me compassionate towards each other and pray for each other guidance.]]>
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   <pubDate>Tue, 26 Feb 2013 14:32:16 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :   Originally posted by EmpiricistJesus...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=174524#174524</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71774">Rational</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 25 February 2013 at 6:48am<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Empiricist</strong></em><br /><br />Jesus was unique in that <u>he was God's special <b>creation</b></u> to be the perfect human</div><br>Do you worship Jesus, the <b>creation</b> of God?<br><br>]]>
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   <pubDate>Mon, 25 Feb 2013 06:48:52 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :  Originally posted by Abu Loren Originally...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=174515#174515</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=69517">Empiricist</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 24 February 2013 at 11:18pm<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Abu Loren</strong></em><br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Empiricist</strong></em><br /><br /><DIV></DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV>It is difficult to understand what this verse is saying.&nbsp; The translation seems incorrect.&nbsp; The english grammer is not correct and confuses the meaning.&nbsp; What does <EM>or the torment be brought to them face to face? </EM>mean?&nbsp; <DIV>What is the passage trying to say?&nbsp; </DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV></div> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>Ok Mr. Empiricist fair enough.&nbsp;It's saying that the disbelievers would only believe when the punishment like that of Prophet Nuh's flood, the baked clay (sijjil) of Prophet Lut, earthquakes of Aad and Thamud etc. Try this translation</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV><FONT size=2></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"></FONT><P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-line-height-alt: 13.5pt" ="Ms&#111;normal"><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Georgia','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 18pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-: EN" lang=EN>Sahih International<?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><O:P></O:P></SPAN></P><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"></FONT><P style="LINE-HEIGHT: 13.5pt; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Ms&#111;normal"><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Georgia','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-: EN" lang=EN><O:P>&nbsp;</O:P></SPAN></P><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"></FONT><P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" ="Ms&#111;normal"><I><SPAN style="LINE-HEIGHT: 115%; FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial Narrow','sans-serif'; FONT-SIZE: 13.5pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-: EN" lang=EN>And nothing has prevented the people from believing when guidance came to them and from asking forgiveness of their Lord except that there &#091;must&#093; befall them the &#091;accustomed&#093; precedent of the former peoples or that the punishment should come &#091;directly&#093; before them.</SPAN></I><I><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Arial Narrow','sans-serif'"><O:P></O:P></SPAN></I></P><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"></FONT></DIV></div> <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>So I will believe in Muhammed if there is a flood or something?&nbsp; Some kind of severe punishment that could even kill me?&nbsp; I suppose I might say anthing to save my skin in such a situation.&nbsp; But this is not true belief.&nbsp; One does not believe in something by force.&nbsp; One only needs to look at what Jesus did.&nbsp; </DIV><span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by Empiricist - 24 February 2013 at 11:19pm</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Sun, 24 Feb 2013 23:18:01 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL : Abu Loren wrote: Good quotations...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=174514#174514</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=69517">Empiricist</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 24 February 2013 at 11:12pm<br /><br /><P>Abu Loren wrote:&nbsp; Good quotations from the Bible, but it just re-inforces that Jesus (Alayhi Salaam) was the Prophet and Messiah of God.</P><DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>What does it mean to be Messiah of God?&nbsp; Is that not unique and holy?&nbsp; Are not the words of Jesus accurate in the Bible?&nbsp; <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>Jesus was unique in that he was God's special creation to be the perfect human.&nbsp; Do we not want to heed the words of Jesus?&nbsp; All of them, not just what we like?]]>
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   <pubDate>Sun, 24 Feb 2013 23:12:47 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :   Originally posted by Empiricist It...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=174281#174281</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=70404">Abu Loren</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 15 February 2013 at 9:07am<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Empiricist</strong></em><br /><br /><div></div><div>&nbsp;</div>It is difficult to understand what this verse is saying.&nbsp; The translation seems incorrect.&nbsp; The english grammer is not correct and confuses the meaning.&nbsp; What does <em>or the torment be brought to them face to face? </em>mean?&nbsp; <div>What is the passage trying to say?&nbsp; </div><div>&nbsp;</div></div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>Ok Mr. Empiricist fair enough.&nbsp;It's saying that the disbelievers would only believe when the punishment like that of Prophet Nuh's flood, the baked clay (sijjil) of Prophet Lut, earthquakes of Aad and Thamud etc. Try this translation</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div><font size="2"></font>&nbsp;</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-line-height-alt: 13.5pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><span style='font-family: "Georgia","serif"; font-size: 18pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-: EN;' lang="EN">Sahih International<?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p></span></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 13.5pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><span style='font-family: "Georgia","serif"; font-size: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-: EN;' lang="EN"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><i><span style='line-height: 115%; font-family: "Arial Narrow","sans-serif"; font-size: 13.5pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-: EN;' lang="EN">And nothing hasprevented the people from believing when guidance came to them and from askingforgiveness of their Lord except that there &#091;must&#093; befall them the &#091;accustomed&#093;precedent of the former peoples or that the punishment should come &#091;directly&#093;before them.</span></i><i><span style='font-family: "Arial Narrow","sans-serif";'><o:p></o:p></span></i></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font></div>]]>
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   <pubDate>Fri, 15 Feb 2013 09:07:18 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :  Originally posted by Abu Loren Originally...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=174271#174271</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=69517">Empiricist</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 15 February 2013 at 12:38am<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Abu Loren</strong></em><br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Empiricist</strong></em><br /><br /><DIV></DIV>You are correct- but you cannot comprehend it.&nbsp; Jesus is a human being, as we all are.&nbsp; We also have spirits, like Jesus.&nbsp; Where does our spirit come from?&nbsp; God.&nbsp; But JESUS' spirit was GOD.&nbsp; I guess this is why he is called Son of God.&nbsp; You only try to find fault, some way to say it cannot be true.&nbsp; Some little detail.&nbsp; This is legalism.&nbsp; You are a hypocrite and a Pharisee.&nbsp; You will not see the kingdom of heaven, no matter how many times you pray to Allah today.&nbsp; I don't think your Allah is the true God.&nbsp; I think he is a false God.&nbsp;&nbsp; <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>I pray to JESUS, who GOD gave us to be the link to God.&nbsp; God knows it is hard if not impossible for us to worhsip something we cannot see.&nbsp; So he gave us Jesus, an man with the spirit of God, perfection.&nbsp; Don's ask how, or why, it doesn't matter.&nbsp; Just accept that God is doing this for OUR benefit, not to have us go to Hell if we don't follow Muhammed hundreds of&nbsp;years later, with a much different message.&nbsp; Sorry.&nbsp; Cannot be.&nbsp; Muhammed is a false prophet.</div> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>The following is for Empiricist.</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV style="LINE-HEIGHT: 18px; FONT-SIZE: 16px">Muhsin Khan</DIV><DIV style="LINE-HEIGHT: 18px; FONT-SIZE: 16px">&nbsp;</DIV><DIV><SPAN id=verse_2195__7_c&#111;ntent><EM>And nothing prevents men from believing, now when the guidance (the Quran) has come to them, and from asking Forgiveness of their Lord, except that the ways of the ancients be repeated with them (i.e. their destruction decreed by Allah), or the torment be brought to them face to face?</EM></SPAN></DIV><DIV><SPAN><SPAN><SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></SPAN>18:55-57</DIV></div> <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>It is difficult to understand what this verse is saying.&nbsp; The translation seems incorrect.&nbsp; The english grammer is not correct and confuses the meaning.&nbsp; What does <EM>or the torment be brought to them face to face? </EM>mean?&nbsp; <DIV>What is the passage trying to say?&nbsp; </DIV>]]>
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   <pubDate>Fri, 15 Feb 2013 00:38:17 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :   Originally posted by NausheenContrasting...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=174138#174138</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=70404">Abu Loren</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 11 February 2013 at 10:36pm<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Nausheen</strong></em><br /><br /><div>&nbsp;</div><div>&nbsp;<br>Contrasting that with yourself, do you find the soft ways of some people irritating or frustrating? Just a little curious. <br><br><br></div></div>tr</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>Yes I do find people like you frustrating. :P</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>However having said that it is a quality that is the best in humanity. Anybody who does not possess it must strive to acquire it. Hence we must try to emulate the Prophet (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam).</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>I believe there is a hadith in which the Prophet (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) tells us that one can change his nature through prayer and supplication.</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>Btw you said it yourself that you get angry too when Islam and the Prophet (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) is mocked. You probably have better understanding of how to control anger and be civil to people. Channelling anger is a great character to have, especially a Muslim Alhamdulilah.</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>Anger leads to hate, and hate leads to the fire.</div>]]>
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   <pubDate>Mon, 11 Feb 2013 22:36:09 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :  Originally posted by Abu Loren Originally...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=174131#174131</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=8">Nausheen</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 11 February 2013 at 9:44pm<br /><br /> <div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Abu Loren</strong></em><br /><br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Nausheen</strong></em><br /><br /><br />So who is the scorpion and who is the frog?<br />Sorry for being so dumb.<br /><br />Asking because a muslim should not be like that scorpion because islam teaches one to go back on 'fitra' and human 'fitra' is different from scorpions :)<br /><br />A muslim can also not be a frog. We are taught to be careful with those who we are sure of receiving harm from.<br /><br /><br /><div> </div><div>Salaam</div><div> </div><div>Being brought up in London, England I was far away from the goodness of Islam as is the West is from the East. The Brits have lost the importance of teaching children manners and basis etiquette. They are basically left to fend for themselves and learn as they go. My parents never taught me anything, what little goodness I possess I got it by knowing what is wrong and what is right.</div><div> </div><div>I think we are different people at the differing ends of the spectrum. I can imagine you being taught Islmic manners in how to behave and how to treat people from a very early age. Contrast that with the growing up in a godless country like England. To make things worse, England was also a very racist country (still is to an extent) and one had to be tough to survive. Foul language had to be used with every other word. If you ddidn't then you are thought of as being abnormal.</div><div> </div><div>Like I said I'm trying to shed my formal skin as I know now that my nature is not right according to the teaching of the Prophet (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam). I know the following hadith very well and I do strive against myself but sometimes satan gets the better of me.</div><div> </div><div><font color="#00ff00"><strong>Narrated AbuHurayrah:</strong></font>&lt;div ="text_details"&gt;<p><em>The Prophet (&#091;IMG&#093;http://sunnah.com/images/sallallahu_alaihi_wa_sallam.png" height="15" alt="sallallahu%20alaihi%20wa%20sallam" /&gt;) said: The most perfect believer in respect of faith is he who is best of them in manners.</em></p></div></div></div> <br /><br />Assalamualaikum,<br /><br />InshAllah IC is not boring lately.<br /><br />Im sorry for the delay in  responding. <br /><br />Thank you for taking the time to entertain my interference to the current discussion.<br /><br /> Believing, though a difficult decisions to arrive at is a one time event. What follows is practicing the religion which is a lifetime test. Nobody is free from the trials of practice. <br />Through your post I reaslized its a real blessing to be brought up in an envt. where I could learn calmness and composure. Alhamdulillah it goes a long way. <br />I agree its hard to unlearn the rough ways you must have had to muster as survival skills of the society. <br />For myself to face the harsh side of the world is very difficult. I find myself so unprepared and overwhelmed on several occasions.<br /><br />Contrasting that with yourself, do you find the soft ways of some people irritating or frustrating? Just a little curious. <br /><br />Trying to emulate the prophet sallallahu alaihe wassallam is the bottom line of religion. The Quran says : If you love Allah follow me, Allah will love you ... so u're on right track. Jihad al-akbar can be understood through qias of Chapter 91 v1-10 Ash-Shams. <br /><br />btw, I like your anger, and think when you decide to hold its reigns better it will be channelized more productively. <br /><br />]]>
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   <pubDate>Mon, 11 Feb 2013 21:44:06 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL : Following up from last post, here...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=174060#174060</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=69517">Empiricist</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 10 February 2013 at 11:48am<br /><br />Following up from last post, here is more about Jesus being the "Messiah" or chosen one&nbsp;in the old testament.&nbsp; From Luke&nbsp;9 Peter declares Jesus as the Messiah.&nbsp; (note that Jesus does not claim this- he lets them say this.&nbsp; He does not put words in their mouth.&nbsp; Then there is the "Transfiguration" event, where God again announces his chosen son, further confirms God's intention for Jesus, and his uniqueness.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <DIV><SPAN id=en-NIV-25320 ="text Luke-9-18"><strong></strong></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV><SPAN ="text Luke-9-18"><strong>Peter Declares That Jesus Is the Messiah<a href="#cen-NIV-25320T" target="_blank">T</A>)'&gt;</SUP><a href="#cen-NIV-25320U" target="_blank">U</A>)'&gt;</SUP></strong></SPAN></DIV><DIV><P><SPAN ="text Luke-9-18"><SUP ="versenum"><FONT size=2>18&nbsp;</FONT></SUP>Once when Jesus was praying<a href="#cen-NIV-25320V" target="_blank">V</A>)'&gt;</SUP> in private and his disciples were with him, he asked them, <SPAN ="woj">“Who do the crowds say I am?”</SPAN></SPAN></P><P><SPAN id=en-NIV-25321 ="text Luke-9-19"><SUP ="versenum"><FONT size=2>19&nbsp;</FONT></SUP>They replied, “Some say John the Baptist;<a href="#cen-NIV-25321W" target="_blank">W</A>)'&gt;</SUP> others say Elijah; and still others, that one of the prophets of long ago has come back to life.”<a href="#cen-NIV-25321X" target="_blank">X</A>)'&gt;</SUP></SPAN></P><P><SPAN id=en-NIV-25322 ="text Luke-9-20"><SPAN ="woj"><SUP ="versenum"><FONT size=2>20&nbsp;</FONT></SUP>“But what about you?”</SPAN> he asked. <SPAN ="woj">“Who do you say I am?”</SPAN></SPAN></P><P><SPAN ="text Luke-9-20">Peter answered, “God’s Messiah.”<a href="#cen-NIV-25322Y" target="_blank">Y</A>)'&gt;</SUP></SPAN></P><H3><SPAN id=en-NIV-25323 ="text Luke-9-21"><strong>Jesus Predicts His Death</strong></SPAN></H3><P><SPAN ="text Luke-9-21"><SUP ="versenum"><FONT size=2>21&nbsp;</FONT></SUP>Jesus strictly warned them not to tell this to anyone.<a href="#cen-NIV-25323Z" target="_blank">Z</A>)'&gt;</SUP></SPAN> <SPAN id=en-NIV-25324 ="text Luke-9-22"><SUP ="versenum"><FONT size=2>22&nbsp;</FONT></SUP>And he said, <SPAN ="woj">“The Son of Man<a href="#cen-NIV-25324AA" target="_blank">AA</A>)'&gt;</SUP> must suffer many things<a href="#cen-NIV-25324AB" target="_blank">AB</A>)'&gt;</SUP> and be rejected by the elders, the chief priests and the teachers of the law,<a href="#cen-NIV-25324AC" target="_blank">AC</A>)'&gt;</SUP> and he must be killed<a href="#cen-NIV-25324AD" target="_blank">AD</A>)'&gt;</SUP> and on the third day<a href="#cen-NIV-25324AE" target="_blank">AE</A>)'&gt;</SUP> be raised to life.”<a href="#cen-NIV-25324AF" target="_blank">AF</A>)'&gt;</SUP></SPAN></SPAN></P><P><SPAN id=en-NIV-25325 ="text Luke-9-23"><SUP ="versenum"><FONT size=2>23&nbsp;</FONT></SUP>Then he said to them all: <SPAN ="woj">“Whoever wants to be my disciple must deny themselves and take up their cross daily and follow me.<a href="#cen-NIV-25325AG" target="_blank">AG</A>)'&gt;</SUP></SPAN></SPAN> <SPAN id=en-NIV-25326 ="text Luke-9-24"><SPAN ="woj"><SUP ="versenum"><FONT size=2>24&nbsp;</FONT></SUP>For whoever wants to save their life will lose it, but whoever loses their life for me will save it.<a href="#cen-NIV-25326AH" target="_blank">AH</A>)'&gt;</SUP></SPAN></SPAN> <SPAN id=en-NIV-25327 ="text Luke-9-25"><SPAN ="woj"><SUP ="versenum"><FONT size=2>25&nbsp;</FONT></SUP>What good is it for someone to gain the whole world, and yet lose or forfeit their very self?</SPAN></SPAN> <SPAN id=en-NIV-25328 ="text Luke-9-26"><SPAN ="woj"><SUP ="versenum"><FONT size=2>26&nbsp;</FONT></SUP>Whoever is ashamed of me and my words, the Son of Man will be ashamed of them<a href="#cen-NIV-25328AI" target="_blank">AI</A>)'&gt;</SUP> when he comes in his glory and in the glory of the Father and of the holy angels.<a href="#cen-NIV-25328AJ" target="_blank">AJ</A>)'&gt;</SUP></SPAN></SPAN></P><P><SPAN id=en-NIV-25329 ="text Luke-9-27"><SPAN ="woj"><SUP ="versenum"><FONT size=2>27&nbsp;</FONT></SUP>“Truly I tell you, some who are standing here will not taste death before they see the kingdom of God.”&nbsp; <FONT color=#0000cc>****Could this be from a vision?&nbsp; One today has seen it- the child in the book Heaven is for Real- during a near death experience.&nbsp;</FONT></SPAN></SPAN></P><H3><SPAN id=en-NIV-25330 ="text Luke-9-28"><strong>The Transfiguration<a href="#cen-NIV-25330AK" target="_blank">AK</A>)'&gt;</SUP></strong></SPAN></H3><P><SPAN ="text Luke-9-28"><SUP ="versenum"><FONT size=2>28&nbsp;</FONT></SUP>About eight days after Jesus said this, he took Peter, John and James<a href="#cen-NIV-25330AL" target="_blank">AL</A>)'&gt;</SUP> with him and went up onto a mountain to pray.<a href="#cen-NIV-25330AM" target="_blank">AM</A>)'&gt;</SUP></SPAN> <SPAN id=en-NIV-25331 ="text Luke-9-29"><SUP ="versenum"><FONT size=2>29&nbsp;</FONT></SUP>As he was praying, the appearance of his face changed, and his clothes became as bright as a flash of lightning.</SPAN> <SPAN id=en-NIV-25332 ="text Luke-9-30"><SUP ="versenum"><FONT size=2>30&nbsp;</FONT></SUP>Two men, Moses and Elijah, appeared in glorious splendor, talking with Jesus.</SPAN> <SPAN id=en-NIV-25333 ="text Luke-9-31"><SUP ="versenum"><FONT size=2>31&nbsp;</FONT></SUP>They spoke about his departure,<a href="#fen-NIV-25333a" target="_blank">a</A>&#093;'&gt;<FONT size=2>&#091;</FONT><a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=luke%209&amp;versi&#111;n=NIV#fen-NIV-25333a" target="_blank"><FONT size=2>a</FONT></A><FONT size=2>&#093;</FONT></SUP><a href="#cen-NIV-25333AN" target="_blank">AN</A>)'&gt;</SUP> which he was about to bring to fulfillment at Jerusalem.</SPAN> <SPAN id=en-NIV-25334 ="text Luke-9-32"><SUP ="versenum"><FONT size=2>32&nbsp;</FONT></SUP>Peter and his companions were very sleepy,<a href="#cen-NIV-25334AO" target="_blank">AO</A>)'&gt;</SUP> but when they became fully awake, they saw his glory and the two men standing with him.</SPAN> <SPAN id=en-NIV-25335 ="text Luke-9-33"><SUP ="versenum"><FONT size=2>33&nbsp;</FONT></SUP>As the men were leaving Jesus, Peter said to him, “Master,<a href="#cen-NIV-25335AP" target="_blank">AP</A>)'&gt;</SUP> it is good for us to be here. Let us put up three shelters—one for you, one for Moses and one for Elijah.” (He did not know what he was saying.)</SPAN></P><P><SPAN id=en-NIV-25336 ="text Luke-9-34"><SUP ="versenum"><FONT size=2>34&nbsp;</FONT></SUP>While he was speaking, a cloud appeared and covered them, and they were afraid as they entered the cloud.</SPAN> <SPAN id=en-NIV-25337 ="text Luke-9-35"><SUP ="versenum"><FONT size=2>35&nbsp;</FONT></SUP>A voice came from the cloud, saying, “This is my Son, whom I have chosen;<a href="#cen-NIV-25337AQ" target="_blank">AQ</A>)'&gt;</SUP> listen to him.”<a href="#cen-NIV-25337AR" target="_blank">AR</A>)'&gt;</SUP></SPAN> <SPAN id=en-NIV-25338 ="text Luke-9-36"><SUP ="versenum"><FONT size=2>36&nbsp;</FONT></SUP>When the voice had spoken, they found that Jesus was alone. The disciples kept this to themselves and did not tell anyone at that time what they had seen.&nbsp;&nbsp; <FONT color=#0000cc>***** God directly tells them Jesus is the chosen son and to listen to Jesus!&nbsp; This is the second time.&nbsp; Also they saw Moses and Elijah.&nbsp; And Jesus&nbsp;became bright white, similar to Moses after God spoke with him.&nbsp; This alone confirms Jesus as Messiah.&nbsp; Jesus goes on to perform many miracles, healings etc. yet many Jews, Pharisees etc. simply cannot bear to&nbsp;believe Jesus is their Messiah for worldly reasons- money, power, etc.</P><DIV>Simon Peter tells us&nbsp;after the resurrection&nbsp;that they&nbsp;did not make all this up (2Peter 1)</DIV><P><SPAN id=en-NIV-30496 ="text 2Pet-1-16"><FONT color=#000000><SUP ="versenum"><FONT size=2>16&nbsp;</FONT></SUP>For we did not follow cleverly devised stories when we told you about the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ in power,</FONT><a href="#cen-NIV-30496AG" target="_blank"><FONT color=#000000>AG</FONT></A><FONT color=#000000>)'&gt;</SUP> but we were eyewitnesses of his majesty.</FONT><a href="#cen-NIV-30496AH" target="_blank"><FONT color=#000000>AH</FONT></A><FONT color=#000000>)'&gt;</SUP></FONT></SPAN><FONT color=#000000> <SPAN id=en-NIV-30497 ="text 2Pet-1-17"><SUP ="versenum"><FONT size=2>17&nbsp;</FONT></SUP>He received honor and glory from God the Father when the voice came to him from the Majestic Glory, saying, “This is my Son, whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”<a href="#fen-NIV-30497b" target="_blank">b</A>&#093;'&gt;<FONT size=2>&#091;</FONT><a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20peter%201&amp;versi&#111;n=NIV#fen-NIV-30497b" target="_blank"><FONT size=2>b</FONT></A><FONT size=2>&#093;</FONT></SUP><a href="#cen-NIV-30497AI" target="_blank">AI</A>)'&gt;</SUP></SPAN> <SPAN id=en-NIV-30498 ="text 2Pet-1-18"><SUP ="versenum"><FONT size=2>18&nbsp;</FONT></SUP>We ourselves heard this voice that came from heaven when we were with him on the sacred mountain.<a href="#cen-NIV-30498AJ" target="_blank">AJ</A>)'&gt;</SUP></SPAN></FONT></P><P><SPAN id=en-NIV-30499 ="text 2Pet-1-19"><FONT color=#000000><SUP ="versenum"><FONT size=2>19&nbsp;</FONT></SUP>We also have the prophetic message as something completely reliable,</FONT><a href="#cen-NIV-30499AK" target="_blank"><FONT color=#000000>AK</FONT></A><FONT color=#000000>)'&gt;</SUP> and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light</FONT><a href="#cen-NIV-30499AL" target="_blank"><FONT color=#000000>AL</FONT></A><FONT color=#000000>)'&gt;</SUP> shining in a dark place, until the day dawns</FONT><a href="#cen-NIV-30499AM" target="_blank"><FONT color=#000000>AM</FONT></A><FONT color=#000000>)'&gt;</SUP> and the morning star</FONT><a href="#cen-NIV-30499AN" target="_blank"><FONT color=#000000>AN</FONT></A><FONT color=#000000>)'&gt;</SUP> rises in your hearts.</FONT><a href="#cen-NIV-30499AO" target="_blank"><FONT color=#000000>AO</FONT></A><FONT color=#000000>)'&gt;</SUP></FONT></SPAN><FONT color=#000000> <SPAN id=en-NIV-30500 ="text 2Pet-1-20"><SUP ="versenum"><FONT size=2>20&nbsp;</FONT></SUP>Above all, you must understand<a href="#cen-NIV-30500AP" target="_blank">AP</A>)'&gt;</SUP> that no prophecy of Scripture came about by the prophet’s own interpretation of things.</SPAN> <SPAN id=en-NIV-30501 ="text 2Pet-1-21"><SUP ="versenum"><FONT size=2>21&nbsp;</FONT></SUP>For prophecy never had its origin in the human will, but prophets, though human, spoke from God<a href="#cen-NIV-30501AQ" target="_blank">AQ</A>)'&gt;</SUP> as they were carried along by the Holy Spirit.<a href="#cen-NIV-30501AR" target="_blank">AR</A>)'&gt;</SUP></SPAN></FONT></P><DIV>Paul tells us in 2 Corinthians 3 (sorry for such a long post but this is&nbsp;revealing). Who was Paul?&nbsp; Formerly Saul of Tarsus, a Pharisee in Jerusalem after the <a href="http://christianity.about.com/od/biblestorysummaries/p/crucifixi&#111;nstor.htm" target="_blank">crucifixion</A> and <a href="http://christianity.about.com/od/biblestorysummaries/p/theresurrecti&#111;n.htm" target="_blank">resurrection</A> of <a href="http://christianity.about.com/od/newtestamentpeople/p/jesuschrist.htm" target="_blank">Jesus Christ</A>, swore to wipe out the new Christian church, called The Way. He got letters from the high priest, authorizing him to arrest any followers of Jesus in the city of Damascus. <P>On the Damascus Road, Saul and his companions were struck down by a blinding light, brighter than the noonday sun. Saul heard a voice say to him:</P><P><EM>"Saul, Saul, why do you persecute me?"</EM> (Acts 9:4, <a href="http://christianity.about.com/od/faqhelpdesk/p/newinternati&#111;na.htm" target="_blank">NIV</A>)</P><P>When Saul asked who was speaking to him, the voice replied, <EM>"I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. Now get up and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do."</EM> (Acts 9:5-6, <a href="http://christianity.about.com/od/faqhelpdesk/p/newinternati&#111;na.htm" target="_blank">NIV</A>)</P><P>The men with Saul heard the sound but did not see the vision of the risen Christ that Saul did. Saul was blinded. They led him by the hand into Damascus to a man named Judas, on Straight Street. For three days Saul was blind and did not eat or drink anything.</P><P>Meanwhile, Jesus appeared in a vision to a disciple in Damascus named Ananias and told him to go to Saul. Ananias was afraid because he knew Saul's reputation as a merciless persecutor of the church.</P><P>Jesus repeated his command, explaining that Saul was his chosen instrument to deliver the gospel to the Gentiles, their kings, and the people of Israel. So Ananias found Saul at Judas' house, praying for help. Ananias laid his hands on Saul, telling him Jesus had sent him to restore his sight and that Saul might be filled with the <a href="http://christianity.about.com/od/topicalbiblestudies/a/whoisholyspirit.htm" target="_blank">Holy Spirit</A>.</P><P>Something like scales fell from Saul's eyes and he could see again. He arose and was <a href="http://christianity.about.com/od/faqhelpdesk/f/whatisbaptism.htm" target="_blank">baptized</A> into the Christian faith. Saul ate, regained his strength, and stayed with the Damascus disciples three days.</P><DIV>2 Corinthians ch. 3- Paul speaking.</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV><DIV><SPAN id=en-NIV-28854 ="text 2Cor-3-12"><SUP ="versenum"><FONT size=2></FONT></SUP></SPAN></DIV><SPAN ="text 2Cor-3-12"><FONT color=#000000><SUP ="versenum"><FONT size=2>12&nbsp;</FONT></SUP>Therefore, since we have such a hope,</FONT><a href="#cen-NIV-28854Q" target="_blank"><FONT color=#000000>Q</FONT></A><FONT color=#000000>)'&gt;</SUP> we are very bold.</FONT><a href="#cen-NIV-28854R" target="_blank"><FONT color=#000000>R</FONT></A><FONT color=#000000>)'&gt;</SUP></FONT></SPAN><FONT color=#000000> <SPAN id=en-NIV-28855 ="text 2Cor-3-13"><SUP ="versenum"><FONT size=2>13&nbsp;</FONT></SUP>We are not like Moses, who would put a veil over his face<a href="#cen-NIV-28855S" target="_blank">S</A>)'&gt;</SUP> to prevent the Israelites from seeing the end of what was passing away.</SPAN> <SPAN id=en-NIV-28856 ="text 2Cor-3-14"><SUP ="versenum"><FONT size=2>14&nbsp;</FONT></SUP>But their minds were made dull,<a href="#cen-NIV-28856T" target="_blank">T</A>)'&gt;</SUP> for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant<a href="#cen-NIV-28856U" target="_blank">U</A>)'&gt;</SUP> is read.<a href="#cen-NIV-28856V" target="_blank">V</A>)'&gt;</SUP> It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away.</SPAN> <SPAN id=en-NIV-28857 ="text 2Cor-3-15"><SUP ="versenum"><FONT size=2>15&nbsp;</FONT></SUP>Even to this day when Moses is read, a veil covers their hearts.</SPAN> <SPAN id=en-NIV-28858 ="text 2Cor-3-16"><SUP ="versenum"><FONT size=2>16&nbsp;</FONT></SUP>But whenever anyone turns to the Lord,<a href="#cen-NIV-28858W" target="_blank">W</A>)'&gt;</SUP> the veil is taken away.<a href="#cen-NIV-28858X" target="_blank">X</A>)'&gt;</SUP></SPAN> <SPAN id=en-NIV-28859 ="text 2Cor-3-17"><SUP ="versenum"><FONT size=2>17&nbsp;</FONT></SUP>Now the Lord is the Spirit,<a href="#cen-NIV-28859Y" target="_blank">Y</A>)'&gt;</SUP> and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom.<a href="#cen-NIV-28859Z" target="_blank">Z</A>)'&gt;</SUP></SPAN> <SPAN id=en-NIV-28860 ="text 2Cor-3-18"><SUP ="versenum"><FONT size=2>18&nbsp;</FONT></SUP>And we all, who with unveiled faces contemplate<a href="#fen-NIV-28860a" target="_blank">a</A>&#093;'&gt;<FONT size=2>&#091;</FONT><a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Corinthians+3&amp;versi&#111;n=NIV#fen-NIV-28860a" target="_blank"><FONT size=2>a</FONT></A><FONT size=2>&#093;</FONT></SUP><a href="#cen-NIV-28860AA" target="_blank">AA</A>)'&gt;</SUP> the Lord’s glory,<a href="#cen-NIV-28860AB" target="_blank">AB</A>)'&gt;</SUP> are being transformed into his image<a href="#cen-NIV-28860AC" target="_blank">AC</A>)'&gt;</SUP> with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit.</SPAN>&nbsp;</FONT></DIV></DIV><DIV><SPAN ="text 2Cor-4-1"><SPAN ="chapternum"><DIV><H3><SPAN id=en-NIV-28861 ="text 2Cor-4-1"><strong><FONT color=#000000>Present Weakness and Resurrection Life</FONT></strong></SPAN></H3></DIV><DIV><FONT color=#000000>Ch.4&nbsp; </FONT></SPAN><FONT color=#000000>Therefore, since through God’s mercy</FONT><a href="#cen-NIV-28861A" target="_blank"><FONT color=#000000>A</FONT></A><FONT color=#000000>)'&gt;</SUP> we have this ministry, we do not lose heart.</FONT><a href="#cen-NIV-28861B" target="_blank"><FONT color=#000000>B</FONT></A><FONT color=#000000>)'&gt;</SUP></FONT></SPAN><FONT color=#000000> <SPAN id=en-NIV-28862 ="text 2Cor-4-2"><SUP ="versenum"><FONT size=2>2&nbsp;</FONT></SUP>Rather, we have renounced secret and shameful ways;<a href="#cen-NIV-28862C" target="_blank">C</A>)'&gt;</SUP> we do not use deception, nor do we distort the word of God.<a href="#cen-NIV-28862D" target="_blank">D</A>)'&gt;</SUP> On the contrary, by setting forth the truth plainly we commend ourselves to everyone’s conscience<a href="#cen-NIV-28862E" target="_blank">E</A>)'&gt;</SUP> in the sight of God.</SPAN> <SPAN id=en-NIV-28863 ="text 2Cor-4-3"><SUP ="versenum"><FONT size=2>3&nbsp;</FONT></SUP>And even if our gospel<a href="#cen-NIV-28863F" target="_blank">F</A>)'&gt;</SUP> is veiled,<a href="#cen-NIV-28863G" target="_blank">G</A>)'&gt;</SUP> it is veiled to those who are perishing.<a href="#cen-NIV-28863H" target="_blank">H</A>)'&gt;</SUP></SPAN> <SPAN id=en-NIV-28864 ="text 2Cor-4-4"><SUP ="versenum"><FONT size=2>4&nbsp;</FONT></SUP>The god<a href="#cen-NIV-28864I" target="_blank">I</A>)'&gt;</SUP> of this age<a href="#cen-NIV-28864J" target="_blank">J</A>)'&gt;</SUP> has blinded<a href="#cen-NIV-28864K" target="_blank">K</A>)'&gt;</SUP> the minds of unbelievers, so that they cannot see the light of the gospel that displays the glory of Christ,<a href="#cen-NIV-28864L" target="_blank">L</A>)'&gt;</SUP> who is the image of God.<a href="#cen-NIV-28864M" target="_blank">M</A>)'&gt;</SUP></SPAN> <SPAN id=en-NIV-28865 ="text 2Cor-4-5"><SUP ="versenum"><FONT size=2>5&nbsp;</FONT></SUP>For what we preach is not ourselves,<a href="#cen-NIV-28865N" target="_blank">N</A>)'&gt;</SUP> but Jesus Christ as Lord,<a href="#cen-NIV-28865O" target="_blank">O</A>)'&gt;</SUP> and ourselves as your servants<a href="#cen-NIV-28865P" target="_blank">P</A>)'&gt;</SUP> for Jesus’ sake.</SPAN> <SPAN id=en-NIV-28866 ="text 2Cor-4-6"><SUP ="versenum"><FONT size=2>6&nbsp;</FONT></SUP>For God, who said, “Let light shine out of darkness,”<a href="#fen-NIV-28866a" target="_blank">a</A>&#093;'&gt;<FONT size=2>&#091;</FONT><a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Corinthians+4&amp;versi&#111;n=NIV#fen-NIV-28866a" target="_blank"><FONT size=2>a</FONT></A><FONT size=2>&#093;</FONT></SUP><a href="#cen-NIV-28866Q" target="_blank">Q</A>)'&gt;</SUP> made his light shine in our hearts<a href="#cen-NIV-28866R" target="_blank">R</A>)'&gt;</SUP> to give us the light of the knowledge of God’s glory displayed in the face of Christ.<a href="#cen-NIV-28866S" target="_blank">S</A>)'&gt;</SUP></SPAN></FONT></DIV><P><SPAN id=en-NIV-28867 ="text 2Cor-4-7"><FONT color=#000000><SUP ="versenum"><FONT size=2>7&nbsp;</FONT></SUP>But we have this treasure in jars of clay</FONT><a href="#cen-NIV-28867T" target="_blank"><FONT color=#000000>T</FONT></A><FONT color=#000000>)'&gt;</SUP> to show that this all-surpassing power is from God</FONT><a href="#cen-NIV-28867U" target="_blank"><FONT color=#000000>U</FONT></A><FONT color=#000000>)'&gt;</SUP> and not from us.</FONT></SPAN><FONT color=#000000> <SPAN id=en-NIV-28868 ="text 2Cor-4-8"><SUP ="versenum"><FONT size=2>8&nbsp;</FONT></SUP>We are hard pressed on every side,<a href="#cen-NIV-28868V" target="_blank">V</A>)'&gt;</SUP> but not crushed; perplexed,<a href="#cen-NIV-28868W" target="_blank">W</A>)'&gt;</SUP> but not in despair;</SPAN> <SPAN id=en-NIV-28869 ="text 2Cor-4-9"><SUP ="versenum"><FONT size=2>9&nbsp;</FONT></SUP>persecuted,<a href="#cen-NIV-28869X" target="_blank">X</A>)'&gt;</SUP> but not abandoned;<a href="#cen-NIV-28869Y" target="_blank">Y</A>)'&gt;</SUP> struck down, but not destroyed.<a href="#cen-NIV-28869Z" target="_blank">Z</A>)'&gt;</SUP></SPAN> <SPAN id=en-NIV-28870 ="text 2Cor-4-10"><SUP ="versenum"><FONT size=2>10&nbsp;</FONT></SUP>We always carry around in our body the death of Jesus,<a href="#cen-NIV-28870AA" target="_blank">AA</A>)'&gt;</SUP> so that the life of Jesus may also be revealed in our body.<a href="#cen-NIV-28870AB" target="_blank">AB</A>)'&gt;</SUP></SPAN> <SPAN id=en-NIV-28871 ="text 2Cor-4-11"><SUP ="versenum"><FONT size=2>11&nbsp;</FONT></SUP>For we who are alive are always being given over to death for Jesus’ sake,<a href="#cen-NIV-28871AC" target="_blank">AC</A>)'&gt;</SUP> so that his life may also be revealed in our mortal body.</SPAN> <SPAN id=en-NIV-28872 ="text 2Cor-4-12"><SUP ="versenum"><FONT size=2>12&nbsp;</FONT></SUP>So then, death is at work in us, but life is at work in you.<a href="#cen-NIV-28872AD" target="_blank">AD</A>)'&gt;</SUP></SPAN></FONT></P><P><SPAN id=en-NIV-28873 ="text 2Cor-4-13"><FONT color=#000000><SUP ="versenum"><FONT size=2>13&nbsp;</FONT></SUP>It is written: “I believed; therefore I have spoken.”</FONT><a href="#fen-NIV-28873b" target="_blank"><FONT color=#000000>b</FONT></A><FONT color=#000000>&#093;'&gt;<FONT size=2>&#091;</FONT></FONT><a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Corinthians+4&amp;versi&#111;n=NIV#fen-NIV-28873b" target="_blank"><FONT color=#000000 size=2>b</FONT></A><FONT color=#000000 size=2>&#093;</FONT></SUP><a href="#cen-NIV-28873AE" target="_blank"><FONT color=#000000>AE</FONT></A><FONT color=#000000>)'&gt;</SUP> Since we have that same spirit of</FONT><a href="#fen-NIV-28873c" target="_blank"><FONT color=#000000>c</FONT></A><FONT color=#000000>&#093;'&gt;<FONT size=2>&#091;</FONT></FONT><a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=2%20Corinthians+4&amp;versi&#111;n=NIV#fen-NIV-28873c" target="_blank"><FONT color=#000000 size=2>c</FONT></A><FONT color=#000000><FONT size=2>&#093;</FONT></SUP> faith,</FONT><a href="#cen-NIV-28873AF" target="_blank"><FONT color=#000000>AF</FONT></A><FONT color=#000000>)'&gt;</SUP> we also believe and therefore speak,</FONT></SPAN><FONT color=#000000> <SPAN id=en-NIV-28874 ="text 2Cor-4-14"><SUP ="versenum"><FONT size=2>14&nbsp;</FONT></SUP>because we know that the one who raised the Lord Jesus from the dead<a href="#cen-NIV-28874AG" target="_blank">AG</A>)'&gt;</SUP> will also raise us with Jesus<a href="#cen-NIV-28874AH" target="_blank">AH</A>)'&gt;</SUP> and present us with you to himself.<a href="#cen-NIV-28874AI" target="_blank">AI</A>)'&gt;</SUP></SPAN> <SPAN id=en-NIV-28875 ="text 2Cor-4-15"><SUP ="versenum"><FONT size=2>15&nbsp;</FONT></SUP>All this is for your benefit, so that the grace that is reaching more and more people may cause thanksgiving<a href="#cen-NIV-28875AJ" target="_blank">AJ</A>)'&gt;</SUP> to overflow to the glory of God.</SPAN></FONT></P><P><SPAN id=en-NIV-28876 ="text 2Cor-4-16"><FONT color=#000000><SUP ="versenum"><FONT size=2>16&nbsp;</FONT></SUP>Therefore we do not lose heart.</FONT><a href="#cen-NIV-28876AK" target="_blank"><FONT color=#000000>AK</FONT></A><FONT color=#000000>)'&gt;</SUP> Though outwardly we are wasting away, yet inwardly</FONT><a href="#cen-NIV-28876AL" target="_blank"><FONT color=#000000>AL</FONT></A><FONT color=#000000>)'&gt;</SUP> we are being renewed</FONT><a href="#cen-NIV-28876AM" target="_blank"><FONT color=#000000>AM</FONT></A><FONT color=#000000>)'&gt;</SUP> day by day.</FONT></SPAN><FONT color=#000000> <SPAN id=en-NIV-28877 ="text 2Cor-4-17"><SUP ="versenum"><FONT size=2>17&nbsp;</FONT></SUP>For our light and momentary troubles are achieving for us an eternal glory that far outweighs them all.<a href="#cen-NIV-28877AN" target="_blank">AN</A>)'&gt;</SUP></SPAN> <SPAN id=en-NIV-28878 ="text 2Cor-4-18"><SUP ="versenum"><FONT size=2>18&nbsp;</FONT></SUP>So we fix our eyes not on what is seen, but on what is unseen,<a href="#cen-NIV-28878AO" target="_blank">AO</A>)'&gt;</SUP> since what is seen is temporary, but what is unseen is eternal.</P></SPAN></FONT></FONT></SPAN></DIV></DIV><span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by Empiricist - 10 February 2013 at 11:53am</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Sun, 10 Feb 2013 11:48:56 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :   Originally posted by EmpiricistA...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=174045#174045</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=70404">Abu Loren</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 10 February 2013 at 2:07am<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Empiricist</strong></em><br /><br />A few more comments- it is difficult to comprehend the dualistic nature of Jesus.&nbsp; Jesus was baptised to fulfill prophesy.&nbsp; God spoke at this time about Jesus....<div><h3><span id="en-NIV-23206"><strong>The Baptism of Jesus (from Matthew 3)</strong></span></h3><p><span><sup><font size="2">13&nbsp;</font></sup>Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to be baptized by John.<a href="#cen-NIV-23206S" target="_blank">S</a>)'&gt;</span> <span id="en-NIV-23207"><sup><font size="2">14&nbsp;</font></sup>But John tried to deter him, saying, “I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?”</span></p><p><span id="en-NIV-23208"><sup><font size="2">15&nbsp;</font></sup>Jesus replied, <span>“Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness.”</span> Then John consented.</span></p><p><span id="en-NIV-23209"><sup><font size="2">16&nbsp;</font></sup>As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened,<a href="#cen-NIV-23209T" target="_blank">T</a>)'&gt; and he saw the Spirit of God<a href="#cen-NIV-23209U" target="_blank">U</a>)'&gt; descending like a dove and alighting on him.</span> <span id="en-NIV-23210"><sup><font size="2">17&nbsp;</font></sup>And a voice from heaven<a href="#cen-NIV-23210V" target="_blank">V</a>)'&gt; said, “This is my Son,<a href="#cen-NIV-23210W" target="_blank">W</a>)'&gt; whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”</span></p><div></div><div></div><p>So the SPIRIT of GOD descended into Jesus.&nbsp; I can only assume this is what Jesus spoke of about being ONE with God.&nbsp; Jesus the MAN had the sprit of God in him and knew God directly.&nbsp; So Jesus was a man and God at the same time.&nbsp; But this does not mean nobody was "holding the fort" while God was in Jesus- God can of course do other things and can have many forms I think.&nbsp; </p><div>Once&nbsp;this remarkable event occurred and Jesus was transformed,&nbsp;he went for 40 days in seclusion.&nbsp; Satan tried to tempt him away from God.&nbsp; </div><div><h3><span id="en-NIV-23211"><strong>Jesus Is Tested in the Wilderness (Matthew 4)<a href="#cen-NIV-23211A" target="_blank">A</a>)'&gt;</strong></span></h3><p><span><span>4&nbsp;</span>Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted<a href="#fen-NIV-23211a" target="_blank">a</a>&#093;'&gt;<font size="2">&#091;</font><a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+4&amp;versi&#111;n=NIV#fen-NIV-23211a" target="_blank"><font size="2">a</font></a><font size="2">&#093;</font><a href="#cen-NIV-23211B" target="_blank">B</a>)'&gt; by the devil.<a href="#cen-NIV-23211C" target="_blank">C</a>)'&gt;</span> <span id="en-NIV-23212"><sup><font size="2">2&nbsp;</font></sup>After fasting forty days and forty nights,<a href="#cen-NIV-23212D" target="_blank">D</a>)'&gt; he was hungry.</span> <span id="en-NIV-23213"><sup><font size="2">3&nbsp;</font></sup>The tempter<a href="#cen-NIV-23213E" target="_blank">E</a>)'&gt; came to him and said, “If you are the Son of God,<a href="#cen-NIV-23213F" target="_blank">F</a>)'&gt; tell these stones to become bread.”</span></p><p><span id="en-NIV-23214"><sup><font size="2">4&nbsp;</font></sup>Jesus answered, <span>“It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.’<a href="#fen-NIV-23214b" target="_blank">b</a>&#093;'&gt;<font size="2">&#091;</font><a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+4&amp;versi&#111;n=NIV#fen-NIV-23214b" target="_blank"><font size="2">b</font></a><font size="2">&#093;</font>”<a href="#cen-NIV-23214G" target="_blank">G</a>)'&gt;</span></span></p><p><span id="en-NIV-23215"><sup><font size="2">5&nbsp;</font></sup>Then the devil took him to the holy city<a href="#cen-NIV-23215H" target="_blank">H</a>)'&gt; and had him stand on the highest point of the temple.</span> <span id="en-NIV-23216"><sup><font size="2">6&nbsp;</font></sup>“If you are the Son of God,”<a href="#cen-NIV-23216I" target="_blank">I</a>)'&gt; he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written:</span></p><div><p><span>“‘He will command his angels concerning you,</span><br><span><span>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span>and they will lift you up in their hands,</span></span><br><span><span>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span>so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’<a href="#fen-NIV-23216c" target="_blank">c</a>&#093;'&gt;<font size="2">&#091;</font><a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+4&amp;versi&#111;n=NIV#fen-NIV-23216c" target="_blank"><font size="2">c</font></a><font size="2">&#093;</font>”<a href="#cen-NIV-23216J" target="_blank">J</a>)'&gt;</span></span></p></div><p><span id="en-NIV-23217"><sup><font size="2">7&nbsp;</font></sup>Jesus answered him, <span>“It is also written: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’<a href="#fen-NIV-23217d" target="_blank">d</a>&#093;'&gt;<font size="2">&#091;</font><a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+4&amp;versi&#111;n=NIV#fen-NIV-23217d" target="_blank"><font size="2">d</font></a><font size="2">&#093;</font>”<a href="#cen-NIV-23217K" target="_blank">K</a>)'&gt;</span></span></p><p><span id="en-NIV-23218"><sup><font size="2">8&nbsp;</font></sup>Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor.</span> <span id="en-NIV-23219"><sup><font size="2">9&nbsp;</font></sup>“All this I will give you,” he said, “if you will bow down and worship me.”</span></p><p><span id="en-NIV-23220"><sup><font size="2">10&nbsp;</font></sup>Jesus said to him, <span>“Away from me, Satan!<a href="#cen-NIV-23220L" target="_blank">L</a>)'&gt; For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’<a href="#fen-NIV-23220e" target="_blank">e</a>&#093;'&gt;<font size="2">&#091;</font><a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+4&amp;versi&#111;n=NIV#fen-NIV-23220e" target="_blank"><font size="2">e</font></a><font size="2">&#093;</font>”<a href="#cen-NIV-23220M" target="_blank">M</a>)'&gt;</span></span></p><p><span id="en-NIV-23221"><sup><font size="2">11&nbsp;</font></sup>Then the devil left him,<a href="#cen-NIV-23221N" target="_blank">N</a>)'&gt; and angels came and attended him.</span></p><div></div><p>So Jesus is not just a prophet but had a unique status of housing the sprit of God, and was able to because God created him for this purpose.&nbsp; </p><div>Other references to the holy spirit make up the third part of the "trinity", man's attempt to explain the three aspects of God displayed in the bible.&nbsp; </div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>What does NOT make sense to me is all the quibbling over Jesus, if he is God or just a Man or whatever.&nbsp; This is just more of satanic forces trying to cause doubt about what GOD was doing- to show MAN what the perfect man could be- Jesus, and that Jesus was basically God incarnate.&nbsp; Jesus continually tries to get the message across that one is to have faith in God, and one will be able to do miracles, even walking on water.&nbsp; It is not about following a long list of rules and laws, as the Pharisees did.&nbsp; </div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>Jesus fulfilled a long list of prophesies.&nbsp; God had a plan for it all and it culminated with Jesus.&nbsp; I don't see how along comes Muhammed and we now have a revision that&nbsp;encourages many evil intentions and actions.&nbsp; Did God make a mistake?&nbsp; No I don't think so.&nbsp; I think God only needs one attempt.&nbsp; Man needs many.&nbsp;&nbsp; Anyway&nbsp;Jesus makes it clear who he is and he is "Not of this world".&nbsp;&nbsp; Jesus was challenged much the same way Muslims continue to challenge him.&nbsp; Read for yourself his response.</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div><h3><span id="en-NIV-26394"><strong>Dispute Over Jesus’ Testimony</strong></span></h3><p><span><sup><font size="2">12&nbsp;</font></sup>When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, <span>“I am<a href="#cen-NIV-26394J" target="_blank">J</a>)'&gt; the light of the world.<a href="#cen-NIV-26394K" target="_blank">K</a>)'&gt; Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.”<a href="#cen-NIV-26394L" target="_blank">L</a>)'&gt;</span></span></p><p><span id="en-NIV-26395"><sup><font size="2">13&nbsp;</font></sup>The Pharisees challenged him, “Here you are, appearing as your own witness; your testimony is not valid.”<a href="#cen-NIV-26395M" target="_blank">M</a>)'&gt;</span></p><p><span id="en-NIV-26396"><sup><font size="2">14&nbsp;</font></sup>Jesus answered, <span>“Even if I testify on my own behalf, my testimony is valid, for I know where I came from and where I am going.<a href="#cen-NIV-26396N" target="_blank">N</a>)'&gt; But you have no idea where I come from<a href="#cen-NIV-26396O" target="_blank">O</a>)'&gt; or where I am going.</span></span> <span id="en-NIV-26397"><span><sup><font size="2">15&nbsp;</font></sup>You judge by human standards;<a href="#cen-NIV-26397P" target="_blank">P</a>)'&gt; I pass judgment on no one.<a href="#cen-NIV-26397Q" target="_blank">Q</a>)'&gt;</span></span> <span id="en-NIV-26398"><span><sup><font size="2">16&nbsp;</font></sup>But if I do judge, my decisions are true, because I am not alone. I stand with the Father, who sent me.<a href="#cen-NIV-26398R" target="_blank">R</a>)'&gt;</span></span> <span id="en-NIV-26399"><span><sup><font size="2">17&nbsp;</font></sup>In your own Law it is written that the testimony of two witnesses is true.<a href="#cen-NIV-26399S" target="_blank">S</a>)'&gt;</span></span> <span id="en-NIV-26400"><span><sup><font size="2">18&nbsp;</font></sup>I am one who testifies for myself; my other witness is the Father, who sent me.”<a href="#cen-NIV-26400T" target="_blank">T</a>)'&gt;</span></span></p><p><span id="en-NIV-26401"><sup><font size="2">19&nbsp;</font></sup>Then they asked him, “Where is your father?”</span></p><p><span><span>“You do not know me or my Father,”<a href="#cen-NIV-26401U" target="_blank">U</a>)'&gt;</span> Jesus replied. <span>“If you knew me, you would know my Father also.”<a href="#cen-NIV-26401V" target="_blank">V</a>)'&gt;</span></span> <span id="en-NIV-26402"><sup><font size="2">20&nbsp;</font></sup>He spoke these words while teaching<a href="#cen-NIV-26402W" target="_blank">W</a>)'&gt; in the temple courts near the place where the offerings were put.<a href="#cen-NIV-26402X" target="_blank">X</a>)'&gt; Yet no one seized him, because his hour had not yet come.<a href="#cen-NIV-26402Y" target="_blank">Y</a>)'&gt;</span></p><h3><span id="en-NIV-26403"><strong>Dispute Over Who Jesus Is (John 8)</strong></span></h3><p><span><sup><font size="2">21&nbsp;</font></sup>Once more Jesus said to them, <span>“I am going away, and you will look for me, and you will die<a href="#cen-NIV-26403Z" target="_blank">Z</a>)'&gt; in your sin. Where I go, you cannot come.”<a href="#cen-NIV-26403AA" target="_blank">AA</a>)'&gt;</span></span></p><p><span id="en-NIV-26404"><sup><font size="2">22&nbsp;</font></sup>This made the Jews ask, “Will he kill himself? Is that why he says, <span>‘Where I go, you cannot come’</span>?”</span></p><p><span id="en-NIV-26405"><sup><font size="2">23&nbsp;</font></sup>But he continued, <span>“You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.<a href="#cen-NIV-26405AB" target="_blank">AB</a>)'&gt;</span></span> <span id="en-NIV-26406"><span><sup><font size="2">24&nbsp;</font></sup>I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he,<a href="#cen-NIV-26406AC" target="_blank">AC</a>)'&gt; you will indeed die in your sins.”</span></span></p><p><span id="en-NIV-26407"><sup><font size="2">25&nbsp;</font></sup>“Who are you?” they asked.</span></p><p><span><span>“Just what I have been telling you from the beginning,”</span> Jesus replied.</span> <span id="en-NIV-26408"><span><sup><font size="2">26&nbsp;</font></sup>“I have much to say in judgment of you. But he who sent me is trustworthy,<a href="#cen-NIV-26408AD" target="_blank">AD</a>)'&gt; and what I have heard from him I tell the world.”<a href="#cen-NIV-26408AE" target="_blank">AE</a>)'&gt;</span></span></p><p><span id="en-NIV-26409"><sup><font size="2">27&nbsp;</font></sup>They did not understand that he was telling them about his Father.</span> <span id="en-NIV-26410"><sup><font size="2">28&nbsp;</font></sup>So Jesus said, <span>“When you have lifted up<a href="#fen-NIV-26410a" target="_blank">a</a>&#093;'&gt;<font size="2">&#091;</font><a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+8&amp;versi&#111;n=NIV#fen-NIV-26410a" target="_blank"><font size="2">a</font></a><font size="2">&#093;</font> the Son of Man,<a href="#cen-NIV-26410AF" target="_blank">AF</a>)'&gt; then you will know that I am he and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me.<a href="#cen-NIV-26410AG" target="_blank">AG</a>)'&gt;</span></span> <span id="en-NIV-26411"><span><sup><font size="2">29&nbsp;</font></sup><font color="#333333">The one who sent me is with me;</font> he has not left me alone,<a href="#cen-NIV-26411AH" target="_blank">AH</a>)'&gt; for I always do what pleases him.”<a href="#cen-NIV-26411AI" target="_blank">AI</a>)'&gt;</span></span> <span id="en-NIV-26412"><sup><font size="2">30&nbsp;</font></sup>Even as he spoke, many believed in him.<a href="#cen-NIV-26412AJ" target="_blank">AJ</a>)'&gt;</span></p><h3><span id="en-NIV-26413"><strong>Dispute Over Whose Children Jesus’ Opponents Are</strong></span></h3><p><span><sup><font size="2">31&nbsp;</font></sup>To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, <span>“If you hold to my teaching,<a href="#cen-NIV-26413AK" target="_blank">AK</a>)'&gt; you are really my disciples.</span></span> <span id="en-NIV-26414"><span><sup><font size="2">32&nbsp;</font></sup>Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”<a href="#cen-NIV-26414AL" target="_blank">AL</a>)'&gt;</span></span></p><p><span id="en-NIV-26415"><sup><font size="2">33&nbsp;</font></sup>They answered him, “We are Abraham’s descendants<a href="#cen-NIV-26415AM" target="_blank">AM</a>)'&gt; and have never been slaves of anyone. How can you say that we shall be set free?”</span></p><p><span id="en-NIV-26416"><sup><font size="2">34&nbsp;</font></sup>Jesus replied, <span>“Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin.<a href="#cen-NIV-26416AN" target="_blank">AN</a>)'&gt;</span></span> <span id="en-NIV-26417"><span><sup><font size="2">35&nbsp;</font></sup>Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever.<a href="#cen-NIV-26417AO" target="_blank">AO</a>)'&gt;</span></span> <span id="en-NIV-26418"><span><sup><font size="2">36&nbsp;</font></sup>So if the Son sets you free,<a href="#cen-NIV-26418AP" target="_blank">AP</a>)'&gt; you will be free indeed.</span></span> <span id="en-NIV-26419"><span><sup><font size="2">37&nbsp;</font></sup>I know that you are Abraham’s descendants. Yet you are looking for a way to kill me,<a href="#cen-NIV-26419AQ" target="_blank">AQ</a>)'&gt; because you have no room for my word.</span></span> <span id="en-NIV-26420"><span><sup><font size="2">38&nbsp;</font></sup>I am telling you what I have seen in the Father’s presence,<a href="#cen-NIV-26420AR" target="_blank">AR</a>)'&gt; and you are doing what you have heard from your father.<a href="#fen-NIV-26420b" target="_blank">b</a>&#093;'&gt;<font size="2">&#091;</font><a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+8&amp;versi&#111;n=NIV#fen-NIV-26420b" target="_blank"><font size="2">b</font></a><font size="2">&#093;</font>”<a href="#cen-NIV-26420AS" target="_blank">AS</a>)'&gt;</span></span></p><p><span id="en-NIV-26421"><sup><font size="2">39&nbsp;</font></sup>“Abraham is our father,” they answered.</span></p><p><span><span>“If you were Abraham’s children,”<a href="#cen-NIV-26421AT" target="_blank">AT</a>)'&gt;</span> said Jesus, <span>“then you would<a href="#fen-NIV-26421c" target="_blank">c</a>&#093;'&gt;<font size="2">&#091;</font><a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+8&amp;versi&#111;n=NIV#fen-NIV-26421c" target="_blank"><font size="2">c</font></a><font size="2">&#093;</font> do what Abraham did.</span></span> <span id="en-NIV-26422"><span><sup><font size="2">40&nbsp;</font></sup>As it is, you are looking for a way to kill me,<a href="#cen-NIV-26422AU" target="_blank">AU</a>)'&gt; a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God.<a href="#cen-NIV-26422AV" target="_blank">AV</a>)'&gt; Abraham did not do such things.</span></span> <span id="en-NIV-26423"><span><sup><font size="2">41&nbsp;</font></sup>You are doing the works of your own father.”<a href="#cen-NIV-26423AW" target="_blank">AW</a>)'&gt;</span></span></p><p><span>“We are not illegitimate children,” they protested. “The only Father we have is God himself.”<a href="#cen-NIV-26423AX" target="_blank">AX</a>)'&gt;</span></p><p><span id="en-NIV-26424"><sup><font size="2">42&nbsp;</font></sup>Jesus said to them, <span>“If God were your Father, you would love me,<a href="#cen-NIV-26424AY" target="_blank">AY</a>)'&gt; for I have come here from God.<a href="#cen-NIV-26424AZ" target="_blank">AZ</a>)'&gt; I have not come on my own;<a href="#cen-NIV-26424BA" target="_blank">BA</a>)'&gt; God sent me.<a href="#cen-NIV-26424BB" target="_blank">BB</a>)'&gt;</span></span> <span id="en-NIV-26425"><span><sup><font size="2">43&nbsp;</font></sup>Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say.</span></span> <span id="en-NIV-26426"><span><sup><font size="2">44&nbsp;</font></sup>You belong to your father, the devil,<a href="#cen-NIV-26426BC" target="_blank">BC</a>)'&gt; and you want to carry out your father’s desires.<a href="#cen-NIV-26426BD" target="_blank">BD</a>)'&gt; He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.<a href="#cen-NIV-26426BE" target="_blank">BE</a>)'&gt;</span></span> <span id="en-NIV-26427"><span><sup><font size="2">45&nbsp;</font></sup>Yet because I tell the truth,<a href="#cen-NIV-26427BF" target="_blank">BF</a>)'&gt; you do not believe me!</span></span> <span id="en-NIV-26428"><span><sup><font size="2">46&nbsp;</font></sup>Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don’t you believe me?</span></span> <span id="en-NIV-26429"><span><sup><font size="2">47&nbsp;</font></sup>Whoever belongs to God hears what God says.<a href="#cen-NIV-26429BG" target="_blank">BG</a>)'&gt; The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.”</span></span></p><h3><span id="en-NIV-26430"><strong>Jesus’ Claims About Himself</strong></span></h3><p><span><sup><font size="2">48&nbsp;</font></sup>The Jews answered him, “Aren’t we right in saying that you are a Samaritan<a href="#cen-NIV-26430BH" target="_blank">BH</a>)'&gt; and demon-possessed?”<a href="#cen-NIV-26430BI" target="_blank">BI</a>)'&gt;</span></p><p><span id="en-NIV-26431"><span><sup><font size="2">49&nbsp;</font></sup>“I am not possessed by a demon,”</span> said Jesus, <span>“but I honor my Father and you dishonor me.</span></span> <span id="en-NIV-26432"><span><sup><font size="2">50&nbsp;</font></sup>I am not seeking glory for myself;<a href="#cen-NIV-26432BJ" target="_blank">BJ</a>)'&gt; but there is one who seeks it, and he is the judge.</span></span> <span id="en-NIV-26433"><span><sup><font size="2">51&nbsp;</font></sup>Very truly I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never see death.”<a href="#cen-NIV-26433BK" target="_blank">BK</a>)'&gt;</span></span></p><p><span id="en-NIV-26434"><sup><font size="2">52&nbsp;</font></sup>At this they exclaimed, “Now we know that you are demon-possessed!<a href="#cen-NIV-26434BL" target="_blank">BL</a>)'&gt; Abraham died and so did the prophets, yet you say that whoever obeys your word will never taste death.</span> <span id="en-NIV-26435"><sup><font size="2">53&nbsp;</font></sup>Are you greater than our father Abraham?<a href="#cen-NIV-26435BM" target="_blank">BM</a>)'&gt; He died, and so did the prophets. Who do you think you are?”</span></p><p><span id="en-NIV-26436"><sup><font size="2">54&nbsp;</font></sup>Jesus replied, <span>“If I glorify myself,<a href="#cen-NIV-26436BN" target="_blank">BN</a>)'&gt; my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me.<a href="#cen-NIV-26436BO" target="_blank">BO</a>)'&gt;</span></span> <span id="en-NIV-26437"><span><sup><font size="2">55&nbsp;</font></sup>Though you do not know him,<a href="#cen-NIV-26437BP" target="_blank">BP</a>)'&gt; I know him.<a href="#cen-NIV-26437BQ" target="_blank">BQ</a>)'&gt; If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and obey his word.<a href="#cen-NIV-26437BR" target="_blank">BR</a>)'&gt;</span></span> <span id="en-NIV-26438"><span><sup><font size="2">56&nbsp;</font></sup>Your father Abraham<a href="#cen-NIV-26438BS" target="_blank">BS</a>)'&gt; rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it<a href="#cen-NIV-26438BT" target="_blank">BT</a>)'&gt; and was glad.”</span></span></p><p><span id="en-NIV-26439"><sup><font size="2">57&nbsp;</font></sup>“You are not yet fifty years old,” they said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”</span></p><p><span id="en-NIV-26440"><span><sup><font size="2">58&nbsp;</font></sup>“Very truly I tell you,”</span> Jesus answered, <span>“before Abraham was born,<a href="#cen-NIV-26440BU" target="_blank">BU</a>)'&gt; I am!”<a href="#cen-NIV-26440BV" target="_blank">BV</a>)'&gt;</span></span> <span id="en-NIV-26441"><sup><font size="2">59&nbsp;</font></sup>At this, they picked up stones to stone him,<a href="#cen-NIV-26441BW" target="_blank">BW</a>)'&gt; but Jesus hid himself,<a href="#cen-NIV-26441BX" target="_blank">BX</a>)'&gt; slipping away from the temple grounds.</span></p><div></div>So believing in Jesus will give you eternal life.&nbsp; Those that do not, are not of God but of Satan.&nbsp; They do not hear Jesus.&nbsp; And to repeat <span id="en-NIV-26428"><span><sup><font size="2">46&nbsp;</font></sup>Can any of you prove me guilty of sin?&nbsp; THIS is the difference between man and Jesus.&nbsp; Jesus was from God and his spirit never dies.&nbsp; He is at the right hand of God but of course is present when 2 or more gather and pray for him.&nbsp; He can somehow be everywhere at once.&nbsp; Man cannot attempt to explain how God works.&nbsp; Only God knows.</span></span></div></div></div></div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>Good quotations from the Bible, but it just re-inforces that Jesus (Alayhi Salaam) was the Prophet and Messiah of God. Read those verses very carefully or if you have difficulty I can translate it for you in a language you could understand.</div>]]>
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   <pubDate>Sun, 10 Feb 2013 02:07:33 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL : A few more comments- it is difficult...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=174038#174038</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=69517">Empiricist</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 09 February 2013 at 8:58pm<br /><br />A few more comments- it is difficult to comprehend the dualistic nature of Jesus.&nbsp; Jesus was baptised to fulfill prophesy.&nbsp; God spoke at this time about Jesus....<DIV><H3><SPAN id=en-NIV-23206 ="text Matt-3-13"><strong>The Baptism of Jesus (from Matthew 3)</strong></SPAN></H3><P><SPAN ="text Matt-3-13"><SUP =versenum><FONT size=2>13&nbsp;</FONT></SUP>Then Jesus came from Galilee to the Jordan to be baptized by John.<a href="#cen-NIV-23206S" target="_blank">S</a>)'></SUP></SPAN> <SPAN id=en-NIV-23207 ="text Matt-3-14"><SUP =versenum><FONT size=2>14&nbsp;</FONT></SUP>But John tried to deter him, saying, “I need to be baptized by you, and do you come to me?”</SPAN></P><P><SPAN id=en-NIV-23208 ="text Matt-3-15"><SUP =versenum><FONT size=2>15&nbsp;</FONT></SUP>Jesus replied, <SPAN =woj>“Let it be so now; it is proper for us to do this to fulfill all righteousness.”</SPAN> Then John consented.</SPAN></P><P><SPAN id=en-NIV-23209 ="text Matt-3-16"><SUP =versenum><FONT size=2>16&nbsp;</FONT></SUP>As soon as Jesus was baptized, he went up out of the water. At that moment heaven was opened,<a href="#cen-NIV-23209T" target="_blank">T</a>)'></SUP> and he saw the Spirit of God<a href="#cen-NIV-23209U" target="_blank">U</a>)'></SUP> descending like a dove and alighting on him.</SPAN> <SPAN id=en-NIV-23210 ="text Matt-3-17"><SUP =versenum><FONT size=2>17&nbsp;</FONT></SUP>And a voice from heaven<a href="#cen-NIV-23210V" target="_blank">V</a>)'></SUP> said, “This is my Son,<a href="#cen-NIV-23210W" target="_blank">W</a>)'></SUP> whom I love; with him I am well pleased.”</P><DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV><P>So the SPIRIT of GOD descended into Jesus.&nbsp; I can only assume this is what Jesus spoke of about being ONE with God.&nbsp; Jesus the MAN had the sprit of God in him and knew God directly.&nbsp; So Jesus was a man and God at the same time.&nbsp; But this does not mean nobody was "holding the fort" while God was in Jesus- God can of course do other things and can have many forms I think.&nbsp; </P><DIV>Once&nbsp;this remarkable event occurred and Jesus was transformed,&nbsp;he went for 40 days in seclusion.&nbsp; Satan tried to tempt him away from God.&nbsp; </DIV><DIV><H3><SPAN id=en-NIV-23211 ="text Matt-4-1"><strong>Jesus Is Tested in the Wilderness (Matthew 4)<a href="#cen-NIV-23211A" target="_blank">A</a>)'></SUP></strong></SPAN></H3><P =chapter-1><SPAN ="text Matt-4-1"><SPAN =chapternum>4&nbsp;</SPAN>Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted<a href="#fen-NIV-23211a" target="_blank">a</a>&#093;'><FONT size=2>&#091;</FONT><a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+4&amp;versi&#111;n=NIV#fen-NIV-23211a" target="_blank"><FONT size=2>a</FONT></a><FONT size=2>&#093;</FONT></SUP><a href="#cen-NIV-23211B" target="_blank">B</a>)'></SUP> by the devil.<a href="#cen-NIV-23211C" target="_blank">C</a>)'></SUP></SPAN> <SPAN id=en-NIV-23212 ="text Matt-4-2"><SUP =versenum><FONT size=2>2&nbsp;</FONT></SUP>After fasting forty days and forty nights,<a href="#cen-NIV-23212D" target="_blank">D</a>)'></SUP> he was hungry.</SPAN> <SPAN id=en-NIV-23213 ="text Matt-4-3"><SUP =versenum><FONT size=2>3&nbsp;</FONT></SUP>The tempter<a href="#cen-NIV-23213E" target="_blank">E</a>)'></SUP> came to him and said, “If you are the Son of God,<a href="#cen-NIV-23213F" target="_blank">F</a>)'></SUP> tell these stones to become bread.”</SPAN></P><P><SPAN id=en-NIV-23214 ="text Matt-4-4"><SUP =versenum><FONT size=2>4&nbsp;</FONT></SUP>Jesus answered, <SPAN =woj>“It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.’<a href="#fen-NIV-23214b" target="_blank">b</a>&#093;'><FONT size=2>&#091;</FONT><a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+4&amp;versi&#111;n=NIV#fen-NIV-23214b" target="_blank"><FONT size=2>b</FONT></a><FONT size=2>&#093;</FONT></SUP>”<a href="#cen-NIV-23214G" target="_blank">G</a>)'></SUP></SPAN></SPAN></P><P><SPAN id=en-NIV-23215 ="text Matt-4-5"><SUP =versenum><FONT size=2>5&nbsp;</FONT></SUP>Then the devil took him to the holy city<a href="#cen-NIV-23215H" target="_blank">H</a>)'></SUP> and had him stand on the highest point of the temple.</SPAN> <SPAN id=en-NIV-23216 ="text Matt-4-6"><SUP =versenum><FONT size=2>6&nbsp;</FONT></SUP>“If you are the Son of God,”<a href="#cen-NIV-23216I" target="_blank">I</a>)'></SUP> he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written:</SPAN></P><DIV ="poetry top-05"><P =line><SPAN ="text Matt-4-6">“‘He will command his angels concerning you,</SPAN><BR><SPAN =indent-1><SPAN =indent-1-breaks>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</SPAN><SPAN ="text Matt-4-6">and they will lift you up in their hands,</SPAN></SPAN><BR><SPAN =indent-1><SPAN =indent-1-breaks>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</SPAN><SPAN ="text Matt-4-6">so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’<a href="#fen-NIV-23216c" target="_blank">c</a>&#093;'><FONT size=2>&#091;</FONT><a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+4&amp;versi&#111;n=NIV#fen-NIV-23216c" target="_blank"><FONT size=2>c</FONT></a><FONT size=2>&#093;</FONT></SUP>”<a href="#cen-NIV-23216J" target="_blank">J</a>)'></SUP></SPAN></SPAN></P></DIV><P =top-05><SPAN id=en-NIV-23217 ="text Matt-4-7"><SUP =versenum><FONT size=2>7&nbsp;</FONT></SUP>Jesus answered him, <SPAN =woj>“It is also written: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’<a href="#fen-NIV-23217d" target="_blank">d</a>&#093;'><FONT size=2>&#091;</FONT><a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+4&amp;versi&#111;n=NIV#fen-NIV-23217d" target="_blank"><FONT size=2>d</FONT></a><FONT size=2>&#093;</FONT></SUP>”<a href="#cen-NIV-23217K" target="_blank">K</a>)'></SUP></SPAN></SPAN></P><P><SPAN id=en-NIV-23218 ="text Matt-4-8"><SUP =versenum><FONT size=2>8&nbsp;</FONT></SUP>Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor.</SPAN> <SPAN id=en-NIV-23219 ="text Matt-4-9"><SUP =versenum><FONT size=2>9&nbsp;</FONT></SUP>“All this I will give you,” he said, “if you will bow down and worship me.”</SPAN></P><P><SPAN id=en-NIV-23220 ="text Matt-4-10"><SUP =versenum><FONT size=2>10&nbsp;</FONT></SUP>Jesus said to him, <SPAN =woj>“Away from me, Satan!<a href="#cen-NIV-23220L" target="_blank">L</a>)'></SUP> For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’<a href="#fen-NIV-23220e" target="_blank">e</a>&#093;'><FONT size=2>&#091;</FONT><a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+4&amp;versi&#111;n=NIV#fen-NIV-23220e" target="_blank"><FONT size=2>e</FONT></a><FONT size=2>&#093;</FONT></SUP>”<a href="#cen-NIV-23220M" target="_blank">M</a>)'></SUP></SPAN></SPAN></P><P><SPAN id=en-NIV-23221 ="text Matt-4-11"><SUP =versenum><FONT size=2>11&nbsp;</FONT></SUP>Then the devil left him,<a href="#cen-NIV-23221N" target="_blank">N</a>)'></SUP> and angels came and attended him.</P><DIV></DIV><P>So Jesus is not just a prophet but had a unique status of housing the sprit of God, and was able to because God created him for this purpose.&nbsp; </P><DIV>Other references to the holy spirit make up the third part of the "trinity", man's attempt to explain the three aspects of God displayed in the bible.&nbsp; </DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>What does NOT make sense to me is all the quibbling over Jesus, if he is God or just a Man or whatever.&nbsp; This is just more of satanic forces trying to cause doubt about what GOD was doing- to show MAN what the perfect man could be- Jesus, and that Jesus was basically God incarnate.&nbsp; Jesus continually tries to get the message across that one is to have faith in God, and one will be able to do miracles, even walking on water.&nbsp; It is not about following a long list of rules and laws, as the Pharisees did.&nbsp; </DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>Jesus fulfilled a long list of prophesies.&nbsp; God had a plan for it all and it culminated with Jesus.&nbsp; I don't see how along comes Muhammed and we now have a revision that&nbsp;encourages many evil intentions and actions.&nbsp; Did God make a mistake?&nbsp; No I don't think so.&nbsp; I think God only needs one attempt.&nbsp; Man needs many.&nbsp;&nbsp; Anyway&nbsp;Jesus makes it clear who he is and he is "Not of this world".&nbsp;&nbsp; Jesus was challenged much the same way Muslims continue to challenge him.&nbsp; Read for yourself his response.</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV><H3><SPAN id=en-NIV-26394 ="text John-8-12"><strong>Dispute Over Jesus’ Testimony</strong></SPAN></H3><P><SPAN ="text John-8-12"><SUP =versenum><FONT size=2>12&nbsp;</FONT></SUP>When Jesus spoke again to the people, he said, <SPAN =woj>“I am<a href="#cen-NIV-26394J" target="_blank">J</a>)'></SUP> the light of the world.<a href="#cen-NIV-26394K" target="_blank">K</a>)'></SUP> Whoever follows me will never walk in darkness, but will have the light of life.”<a href="#cen-NIV-26394L" target="_blank">L</a>)'></SUP></SPAN></SPAN></P><P><SPAN id=en-NIV-26395 ="text John-8-13"><SUP =versenum><FONT size=2>13&nbsp;</FONT></SUP>The Pharisees challenged him, “Here you are, appearing as your own witness; your testimony is not valid.”<a href="#cen-NIV-26395M" target="_blank">M</a>)'></SUP></SPAN></P><P><SPAN id=en-NIV-26396 ="text John-8-14"><SUP =versenum><FONT size=2>14&nbsp;</FONT></SUP>Jesus answered, <SPAN =woj>“Even if I testify on my own behalf, my testimony is valid, for I know where I came from and where I am going.<a href="#cen-NIV-26396N" target="_blank">N</a>)'></SUP> But you have no idea where I come from<a href="#cen-NIV-26396O" target="_blank">O</a>)'></SUP> or where I am going.</SPAN></SPAN> <SPAN id=en-NIV-26397 ="text John-8-15"><SPAN =woj><SUP =versenum><FONT size=2>15&nbsp;</FONT></SUP>You judge by human standards;<a href="#cen-NIV-26397P" target="_blank">P</a>)'></SUP> I pass judgment on no one.<a href="#cen-NIV-26397Q" target="_blank">Q</a>)'></SUP></SPAN></SPAN> <SPAN id=en-NIV-26398 ="text John-8-16"><SPAN =woj><SUP =versenum><FONT size=2>16&nbsp;</FONT></SUP>But if I do judge, my decisions are true, because I am not alone. I stand with the Father, who sent me.<a href="#cen-NIV-26398R" target="_blank">R</a>)'></SUP></SPAN></SPAN> <SPAN id=en-NIV-26399 ="text John-8-17"><SPAN =woj><SUP =versenum><FONT size=2>17&nbsp;</FONT></SUP>In your own Law it is written that the testimony of two witnesses is true.<a href="#cen-NIV-26399S" target="_blank">S</a>)'></SUP></SPAN></SPAN> <SPAN id=en-NIV-26400 ="text John-8-18"><SPAN =woj><SUP =versenum><FONT size=2>18&nbsp;</FONT></SUP>I am one who testifies for myself; my other witness is the Father, who sent me.”<a href="#cen-NIV-26400T" target="_blank">T</a>)'></SUP></SPAN></SPAN></P><P><SPAN id=en-NIV-26401 ="text John-8-19"><SUP =versenum><FONT size=2>19&nbsp;</FONT></SUP>Then they asked him, “Where is your father?”</SPAN></P><P><SPAN ="text John-8-19"><SPAN =woj>“You do not know me or my Father,”<a href="#cen-NIV-26401U" target="_blank">U</a>)'></SUP></SPAN> Jesus replied. <SPAN =woj>“If you knew me, you would know my Father also.”<a href="#cen-NIV-26401V" target="_blank">V</a>)'></SUP></SPAN></SPAN> <SPAN id=en-NIV-26402 ="text John-8-20"><SUP =versenum><FONT size=2>20&nbsp;</FONT></SUP>He spoke these words while teaching<a href="#cen-NIV-26402W" target="_blank">W</a>)'></SUP> in the temple courts near the place where the offerings were put.<a href="#cen-NIV-26402X" target="_blank">X</a>)'></SUP> Yet no one seized him, because his hour had not yet come.<a href="#cen-NIV-26402Y" target="_blank">Y</a>)'></SUP></SPAN></P><H3><SPAN id=en-NIV-26403 ="text John-8-21"><strong>Dispute Over Who Jesus Is (John 8)</strong></SPAN></H3><P><SPAN ="text John-8-21"><SUP =versenum><FONT size=2>21&nbsp;</FONT></SUP>Once more Jesus said to them, <SPAN =woj>“I am going away, and you will look for me, and you will die<a href="#cen-NIV-26403Z" target="_blank">Z</a>)'></SUP> in your sin. Where I go, you cannot come.”<a href="#cen-NIV-26403AA" target="_blank">AA</a>)'></SUP></SPAN></SPAN></P><P><SPAN id=en-NIV-26404 ="text John-8-22"><SUP =versenum><FONT size=2>22&nbsp;</FONT></SUP>This made the Jews ask, “Will he kill himself? Is that why he says, <SPAN =woj>‘Where I go, you cannot come’</SPAN>?”</SPAN></P><P><SPAN id=en-NIV-26405 ="text John-8-23"><SUP =versenum><FONT size=2>23&nbsp;</FONT></SUP>But he continued, <SPAN =woj>“You are from below; I am from above. You are of this world; I am not of this world.<a href="#cen-NIV-26405AB" target="_blank">AB</a>)'></SUP></SPAN></SPAN> <SPAN id=en-NIV-26406 ="text John-8-24"><SPAN =woj><SUP =versenum><FONT size=2>24&nbsp;</FONT></SUP>I told you that you would die in your sins; if you do not believe that I am he,<a href="#cen-NIV-26406AC" target="_blank">AC</a>)'></SUP> you will indeed die in your sins.”</SPAN></SPAN></P><P><SPAN id=en-NIV-26407 ="text John-8-25"><SUP =versenum><FONT size=2>25&nbsp;</FONT></SUP>“Who are you?” they asked.</SPAN></P><P><SPAN ="text John-8-25"><SPAN =woj>“Just what I have been telling you from the beginning,”</SPAN> Jesus replied.</SPAN> <SPAN id=en-NIV-26408 ="text John-8-26"><SPAN =woj><SUP =versenum><FONT size=2>26&nbsp;</FONT></SUP>“I have much to say in judgment of you. But he who sent me is trustworthy,<a href="#cen-NIV-26408AD" target="_blank">AD</a>)'></SUP> and what I have heard from him I tell the world.”<a href="#cen-NIV-26408AE" target="_blank">AE</a>)'></SUP></SPAN></SPAN></P><P><SPAN id=en-NIV-26409 ="text John-8-27"><SUP =versenum><FONT size=2>27&nbsp;</FONT></SUP>They did not understand that he was telling them about his Father.</SPAN> <SPAN id=en-NIV-26410 ="text John-8-28"><SUP =versenum><FONT size=2>28&nbsp;</FONT></SUP>So Jesus said, <SPAN =woj>“When you have lifted up<a href="#fen-NIV-26410a" target="_blank">a</a>&#093;'><FONT size=2>&#091;</FONT><a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+8&amp;versi&#111;n=NIV#fen-NIV-26410a" target="_blank"><FONT size=2>a</FONT></a><FONT size=2>&#093;</FONT></SUP> the Son of Man,<a href="#cen-NIV-26410AF" target="_blank">AF</a>)'></SUP> then you will know that I am he and that I do nothing on my own but speak just what the Father has taught me.<a href="#cen-NIV-26410AG" target="_blank">AG</a>)'></SUP></SPAN></SPAN> <SPAN id=en-NIV-26411 ="text John-8-29"><SPAN =woj><SUP =versenum><FONT size=2>29&nbsp;</FONT></SUP><FONT color=#333333>The one who sent me is with me;</FONT> he has not left me alone,<a href="#cen-NIV-26411AH" target="_blank">AH</a>)'></SUP> for I always do what pleases him.”<a href="#cen-NIV-26411AI" target="_blank">AI</a>)'></SUP></SPAN></SPAN> <SPAN id=en-NIV-26412 ="text John-8-30"><SUP =versenum><FONT size=2>30&nbsp;</FONT></SUP>Even as he spoke, many believed in him.<a href="#cen-NIV-26412AJ" target="_blank">AJ</a>)'></SUP></SPAN></P><H3><SPAN id=en-NIV-26413 ="text John-8-31"><strong>Dispute Over Whose Children Jesus’ Opponents Are</strong></SPAN></H3><P><SPAN ="text John-8-31"><SUP =versenum><FONT size=2>31&nbsp;</FONT></SUP>To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, <SPAN =woj>“If you hold to my teaching,<a href="#cen-NIV-26413AK" target="_blank">AK</a>)'></SUP> you are really my disciples.</SPAN></SPAN> <SPAN id=en-NIV-26414 ="text John-8-32"><SPAN =woj><SUP =versenum><FONT size=2>32&nbsp;</FONT></SUP>Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”<a href="#cen-NIV-26414AL" target="_blank">AL</a>)'></SUP></SPAN></SPAN></P><P><SPAN id=en-NIV-26415 ="text John-8-33"><SUP =versenum><FONT size=2>33&nbsp;</FONT></SUP>They answered him, “We are Abraham’s descendants<a href="#cen-NIV-26415AM" target="_blank">AM</a>)'></SUP> and have never been slaves of anyone. How can you say that we shall be set free?”</SPAN></P><P><SPAN id=en-NIV-26416 ="text John-8-34"><SUP =versenum><FONT size=2>34&nbsp;</FONT></SUP>Jesus replied, <SPAN =woj>“Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin.<a href="#cen-NIV-26416AN" target="_blank">AN</a>)'></SUP></SPAN></SPAN> <SPAN id=en-NIV-26417 ="text John-8-35"><SPAN =woj><SUP =versenum><FONT size=2>35&nbsp;</FONT></SUP>Now a slave has no permanent place in the family, but a son belongs to it forever.<a href="#cen-NIV-26417AO" target="_blank">AO</a>)'></SUP></SPAN></SPAN> <SPAN id=en-NIV-26418 ="text John-8-36"><SPAN =woj><SUP =versenum><FONT size=2>36&nbsp;</FONT></SUP>So if the Son sets you free,<a href="#cen-NIV-26418AP" target="_blank">AP</a>)'></SUP> you will be free indeed.</SPAN></SPAN> <SPAN id=en-NIV-26419 ="text John-8-37"><SPAN =woj><SUP =versenum><FONT size=2>37&nbsp;</FONT></SUP>I know that you are Abraham’s descendants. Yet you are looking for a way to kill me,<a href="#cen-NIV-26419AQ" target="_blank">AQ</a>)'></SUP> because you have no room for my word.</SPAN></SPAN> <SPAN id=en-NIV-26420 ="text John-8-38"><SPAN =woj><SUP =versenum><FONT size=2>38&nbsp;</FONT></SUP>I am telling you what I have seen in the Father’s presence,<a href="#cen-NIV-26420AR" target="_blank">AR</a>)'></SUP> and you are doing what you have heard from your father.<a href="#fen-NIV-26420b" target="_blank">b</a>&#093;'><FONT size=2>&#091;</FONT><a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+8&amp;versi&#111;n=NIV#fen-NIV-26420b" target="_blank"><FONT size=2>b</FONT></a><FONT size=2>&#093;</FONT></SUP>”<a href="#cen-NIV-26420AS" target="_blank">AS</a>)'></SUP></SPAN></SPAN></P><P><SPAN id=en-NIV-26421 ="text John-8-39"><SUP =versenum><FONT size=2>39&nbsp;</FONT></SUP>“Abraham is our father,” they answered.</SPAN></P><P><SPAN ="text John-8-39"><SPAN =woj>“If you were Abraham’s children,”<a href="#cen-NIV-26421AT" target="_blank">AT</a>)'></SUP></SPAN> said Jesus, <SPAN =woj>“then you would<a href="#fen-NIV-26421c" target="_blank">c</a>&#093;'><FONT size=2>&#091;</FONT><a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+8&amp;versi&#111;n=NIV#fen-NIV-26421c" target="_blank"><FONT size=2>c</FONT></a><FONT size=2>&#093;</FONT></SUP> do what Abraham did.</SPAN></SPAN> <SPAN id=en-NIV-26422 ="text John-8-40"><SPAN =woj><SUP =versenum><FONT size=2>40&nbsp;</FONT></SUP>As it is, you are looking for a way to kill me,<a href="#cen-NIV-26422AU" target="_blank">AU</a>)'></SUP> a man who has told you the truth that I heard from God.<a href="#cen-NIV-26422AV" target="_blank">AV</a>)'></SUP> Abraham did not do such things.</SPAN></SPAN> <SPAN id=en-NIV-26423 ="text John-8-41"><SPAN =woj><SUP =versenum><FONT size=2>41&nbsp;</FONT></SUP>You are doing the works of your own father.”<a href="#cen-NIV-26423AW" target="_blank">AW</a>)'></SUP></SPAN></SPAN></P><P><SPAN ="text John-8-41">“We are not illegitimate children,” they protested. “The only Father we have is God himself.”<a href="#cen-NIV-26423AX" target="_blank">AX</a>)'></SUP></SPAN></P><P><SPAN id=en-NIV-26424 ="text John-8-42"><SUP =versenum><FONT size=2>42&nbsp;</FONT></SUP>Jesus said to them, <SPAN =woj>“If God were your Father, you would love me,<a href="#cen-NIV-26424AY" target="_blank">AY</a>)'></SUP> for I have come here from God.<a href="#cen-NIV-26424AZ" target="_blank">AZ</a>)'></SUP> I have not come on my own;<a href="#cen-NIV-26424BA" target="_blank">BA</a>)'></SUP> God sent me.<a href="#cen-NIV-26424BB" target="_blank">BB</a>)'></SUP></SPAN></SPAN> <SPAN id=en-NIV-26425 ="text John-8-43"><SPAN =woj><SUP =versenum><FONT size=2>43&nbsp;</FONT></SUP>Why is my language not clear to you? Because you are unable to hear what I say.</SPAN></SPAN> <SPAN id=en-NIV-26426 ="text John-8-44"><SPAN =woj><SUP =versenum><FONT size=2>44&nbsp;</FONT></SUP>You belong to your father, the devil,<a href="#cen-NIV-26426BC" target="_blank">BC</a>)'></SUP> and you want to carry out your father’s desires.<a href="#cen-NIV-26426BD" target="_blank">BD</a>)'></SUP> He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.<a href="#cen-NIV-26426BE" target="_blank">BE</a>)'></SUP></SPAN></SPAN> <SPAN id=en-NIV-26427 ="text John-8-45"><SPAN =woj><SUP =versenum><FONT size=2>45&nbsp;</FONT></SUP>Yet because I tell the truth,<a href="#cen-NIV-26427BF" target="_blank">BF</a>)'></SUP> you do not believe me!</SPAN></SPAN> <SPAN id=en-NIV-26428 ="text John-8-46"><SPAN =woj><SUP =versenum><FONT size=2>46&nbsp;</FONT></SUP>Can any of you prove me guilty of sin? If I am telling the truth, why don’t you believe me?</SPAN></SPAN> <SPAN id=en-NIV-26429 ="text John-8-47"><SPAN =woj><SUP =versenum><FONT size=2>47&nbsp;</FONT></SUP>Whoever belongs to God hears what God says.<a href="#cen-NIV-26429BG" target="_blank">BG</a>)'></SUP> The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.”</SPAN></SPAN></P><H3><SPAN id=en-NIV-26430 ="text John-8-48"><strong>Jesus’ Claims About Himself</strong></SPAN></H3><P><SPAN ="text John-8-48"><SUP =versenum><FONT size=2>48&nbsp;</FONT></SUP>The Jews answered him, “Aren’t we right in saying that you are a Samaritan<a href="#cen-NIV-26430BH" target="_blank">BH</a>)'></SUP> and demon-possessed?”<a href="#cen-NIV-26430BI" target="_blank">BI</a>)'></SUP></SPAN></P><P><SPAN id=en-NIV-26431 ="text John-8-49"><SPAN =woj><SUP =versenum><FONT size=2>49&nbsp;</FONT></SUP>“I am not possessed by a demon,”</SPAN> said Jesus, <SPAN =woj>“but I honor my Father and you dishonor me.</SPAN></SPAN> <SPAN id=en-NIV-26432 ="text John-8-50"><SPAN =woj><SUP =versenum><FONT size=2>50&nbsp;</FONT></SUP>I am not seeking glory for myself;<a href="#cen-NIV-26432BJ" target="_blank">BJ</a>)'></SUP> but there is one who seeks it, and he is the judge.</SPAN></SPAN> <SPAN id=en-NIV-26433 ="text John-8-51"><SPAN =woj><SUP =versenum><FONT size=2>51&nbsp;</FONT></SUP>Very truly I tell you, whoever obeys my word will never see death.”<a href="#cen-NIV-26433BK" target="_blank">BK</a>)'></SUP></SPAN></SPAN></P><P><SPAN id=en-NIV-26434 ="text John-8-52"><SUP =versenum><FONT size=2>52&nbsp;</FONT></SUP>At this they exclaimed, “Now we know that you are demon-possessed!<a href="#cen-NIV-26434BL" target="_blank">BL</a>)'></SUP> Abraham died and so did the prophets, yet you say that whoever obeys your word will never taste death.</SPAN> <SPAN id=en-NIV-26435 ="text John-8-53"><SUP =versenum><FONT size=2>53&nbsp;</FONT></SUP>Are you greater than our father Abraham?<a href="#cen-NIV-26435BM" target="_blank">BM</a>)'></SUP> He died, and so did the prophets. Who do you think you are?”</SPAN></P><P><SPAN id=en-NIV-26436 ="text John-8-54"><SUP =versenum><FONT size=2>54&nbsp;</FONT></SUP>Jesus replied, <SPAN =woj>“If I glorify myself,<a href="#cen-NIV-26436BN" target="_blank">BN</a>)'></SUP> my glory means nothing. My Father, whom you claim as your God, is the one who glorifies me.<a href="#cen-NIV-26436BO" target="_blank">BO</a>)'></SUP></SPAN></SPAN> <SPAN id=en-NIV-26437 ="text John-8-55"><SPAN =woj><SUP =versenum><FONT size=2>55&nbsp;</FONT></SUP>Though you do not know him,<a href="#cen-NIV-26437BP" target="_blank">BP</a>)'></SUP> I know him.<a href="#cen-NIV-26437BQ" target="_blank">BQ</a>)'></SUP> If I said I did not, I would be a liar like you, but I do know him and obey his word.<a href="#cen-NIV-26437BR" target="_blank">BR</a>)'></SUP></SPAN></SPAN> <SPAN id=en-NIV-26438 ="text John-8-56"><SPAN =woj><SUP =versenum><FONT size=2>56&nbsp;</FONT></SUP>Your father Abraham<a href="#cen-NIV-26438BS" target="_blank">BS</a>)'></SUP> rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it<a href="#cen-NIV-26438BT" target="_blank">BT</a>)'></SUP> and was glad.”</SPAN></SPAN></P><P><SPAN id=en-NIV-26439 ="text John-8-57"><SUP =versenum><FONT size=2>57&nbsp;</FONT></SUP>“You are not yet fifty years old,” they said to him, “and you have seen Abraham!”</SPAN></P><P><SPAN id=en-NIV-26440 ="text John-8-58"><SPAN =woj><SUP =versenum><FONT size=2>58&nbsp;</FONT></SUP>“Very truly I tell you,”</SPAN> Jesus answered, <SPAN =woj>“before Abraham was born,<a href="#cen-NIV-26440BU" target="_blank">BU</a>)'></SUP> I am!”<a href="#cen-NIV-26440BV" target="_blank">BV</a>)'></SUP></SPAN></SPAN> <SPAN id=en-NIV-26441 ="text John-8-59"><SUP =versenum><FONT size=2>59&nbsp;</FONT></SUP>At this, they picked up stones to stone him,<a href="#cen-NIV-26441BW" target="_blank">BW</a>)'></SUP> but Jesus hid himself,<a href="#cen-NIV-26441BX" target="_blank">BX</a>)'></SUP> slipping away from the temple grounds.</P><DIV></DIV>So believing in Jesus will give you eternal life.&nbsp; Those that do not, are not of God but of Satan.&nbsp; They do not hear Jesus.&nbsp; And to repeat <SPAN id=en-NIV-26428 ="text John-8-46"><SPAN =woj><SUP =versenum><FONT size=2>46&nbsp;</FONT></SUP>Can any of you prove me guilty of sin?&nbsp; THIS is the difference between man and Jesus.&nbsp; Jesus was from God and his spirit never dies.&nbsp; He is at the right hand of God but of course is present when 2 or more gather and pray for him.&nbsp; He can somehow be everywhere at once.&nbsp; Man cannot attempt to explain how God works.&nbsp; Only God knows.</SPAN></SPAN></SPAN></DIV></SPAN></SPAN></DIV></DIV>]]>
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   <pubDate>Sat, 09 Feb 2013 20:58:10 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :   Originally posted by Empiricist You...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=174000#174000</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=70404">Abu Loren</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 09 February 2013 at 2:53am<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Empiricist</strong></em><br /><br /><div></div>You are correct- but you cannot comprehend it.&nbsp; Jesus is a human being, as we all are.&nbsp; We also have spirits, like Jesus.&nbsp; Where does our spirit come from?&nbsp; God.&nbsp; But JESUS' spirit was GOD.&nbsp; I guess this is why he is called Son of God.&nbsp; You only try to find fault, some way to say it cannot be true.&nbsp; Some little detail.&nbsp; This is legalism.&nbsp; You are a hypocrite and a Pharisee.&nbsp; You will not see the kingdom of heaven, no matter how many times you pray to Allah today.&nbsp; I don't think your Allah is the true God.&nbsp; I think he is a false God.&nbsp;&nbsp; <div></div><div></div><div></div>I pray to JESUS, who GOD gave us to be the link to God.&nbsp; God knows it is hard if not impossible for us to worhsip something we cannot see.&nbsp; So he gave us Jesus, an man with the spirit of God, perfection.&nbsp; Don's ask how, or why, it doesn't matter.&nbsp; Just accept that God is doing this for OUR benefit, not to have us go to Hell if we don't follow Muhammed hundreds of&nbsp;years later, with a much different message.&nbsp; Sorry.&nbsp; Cannot be.&nbsp; Muhammed is a false prophet.</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>The following is for Empiricist.</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div style="line-height: 18px; font-size: 16px;">Muhsin Khan</div><div style="line-height: 18px; font-size: 16px;">&nbsp;</div><div><span id="verse_2195__7_c&#111;ntent"><em>And nothing prevents men from believing, now when the guidance (the Quran) has come to them, and from asking Forgiveness of their Lord, except that the ways of the ancients be repeated with them (i.e. their destruction decreed by Allah), or the torment be brought to them face to face?</em></span></div><div><span><span id="verse_2196__7_c&#111;ntent"><em>And We send not the Messengers except as giver of glad tidings and warners. But those who disbelieve, dispute with false argument, in order to refute the truth thereby. And they treat My Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.), and that with which they are warned, as jest and mockery!</em></span></span></div><div><span><span><span id="verse_2197__7_c&#111;ntent"><em>And who does more wrong than he who is reminded of the Ayat (proofs, evidences, verses, lessons, signs, revelations, etc.) of his Lord, but turns away from them forgetting what (deeds) his hands have sent forth. Truly, We have set veils over their hearts lest they should understand this (the Quran), and in their ears, deafness. And if you (O Muhammad SAW) call them to guidance, even then they will never be guided.</em></span></span></span></div><div><span><span><span></span></span></span>18:55-57</div>]]>
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   <pubDate>Sat, 09 Feb 2013 02:53:58 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :  Originally posted by truthnowcomeIT...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=173988#173988</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=69517">Empiricist</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 08 February 2013 at 8:52pm<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by truthnowcome</strong></em><br /><br />IT IS OK TO SUBMIT YOUR <FONT color=#ff0000>OPINION</FONT> NO OFFENSE!<BR>PROVE MY ARGUMENT WRONG!<BR><BR>BR.ZAINOOL<BR><BR></div> <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>You are correct- but you cannot comprehend it.&nbsp; Jesus is a human being, as we all are.&nbsp; We also have spirits, like Jesus.&nbsp; Where does our spirit come from?&nbsp; God.&nbsp; But JESUS' spirit was GOD.&nbsp; I guess this is why he is called Son of God.&nbsp; You only try to find fault, some way to say it cannot be true.&nbsp; Some little detail.&nbsp; This is legalism.&nbsp; You are a hypocrite and a Pharisee.&nbsp; You will not see the kingdom of heaven, no matter how many times you pray to Allah today.&nbsp; I don't think your Allah is the true God.&nbsp; I think he is a false God.&nbsp;&nbsp; <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV>I pray to JESUS, who GOD gave us to be the link to God.&nbsp; God knows it is hard if not impossible for us to worhsip something we cannot see.&nbsp; So he gave us Jesus, an man with the spirit of God, perfection.&nbsp; Don's ask how, or why, it doesn't matter.&nbsp; Just accept that God is doing this for OUR benefit, not to have us go to Hell if we don't follow Muhammed hundreds of&nbsp;years later, with a much different message.&nbsp; Sorry.&nbsp; Cannot be.&nbsp; Muhammed is a false prophet.]]>
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   <pubDate>Fri, 08 Feb 2013 20:52:13 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :   Originally posted by Nausheen So...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=173828#173828</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=70404">Abu Loren</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 05 February 2013 at 1:45am<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Nausheen</strong></em><br /><br /><br><br>So who is the scorpion and who is the frog?<br>Sorry for being so dumb.<br><br>Asking because a muslim should not be like that scorpion because islam teaches one to go back on 'fitra' and human 'fitra' is different from scorpions :)<br><br>A muslim can also not be a frog. We are taught to be careful with those who we are sure of receiving harm from.<br><br></div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>Salaam</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>Being brought up in London, England I was far away from the goodness of Islam as is the West is from the East. The Brits have lost the importance of teaching children manners and basis etiquette. They are basically left to fend for themselves and learn as they go. My parents never taught me anything, what little goodness I possess I got it by knowing what is wrong and what is right.</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>I think we are different people at the differing ends of the spectrum. I can imagine you being taught Islmic manners in how to behave and how to treat people from a very early age. Contrast that with the growing up in a godless country like England. To make things worse, England was also a very racist country (still is to an extent) and one had to be tough to survive. Foul language had to be used with every other word. If you ddidn't then you are thought of as being abnormal.</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>Like I said I'm trying to shed my formal skin as I know now that my nature is not right according to the teaching of the Prophet (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam). I know the following hadith very well and I do strive against myself but sometimes satan gets the better of me.</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div><font color="#00ff00"><strong>Narrated AbuHurayrah:</strong></font><div ="text_details"><p><em>The Prophet (<img src="http://sunnah.com/images/sallallahu_alaihi_wa_sallam.png" height="15" border="0" alt="sallallahu%20alaihi%20wa%20sallam" />) said: The most perfect believer in respect of faith is he who is best of them in manners.</em></p></div></div>]]>
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   <pubDate>Tue, 05 Feb 2013 01:45:22 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :  Originally posted by Abu Loren Originally...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=173812#173812</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=8">Nausheen</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 04 February 2013 at 7:05pm<br /><br /> <div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Abu Loren</strong></em><br /><br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Nausheen</strong></em><br /><br />Abu Loren,<br />Assalamualaikum wa rahamtullah wa barkatuhu,<br /><br />I just posted a vedio in the Forum Prophet-Muhammad 'The Strength of Beauty and the beauty of strength'. It is 31+minutes long. Please take a look and humor me.<br /><br />Jazak Allahu khair.<br /><div> </div><div>A frog and a scorpion stood on a river bank and the scorpion said to the frog "put me on your back and carry me across to the other side of the river" the frog replied "no, you will only sting me when we are in the middle" in which the scorpion pleaded " I will not I promise".</div><div>So the frog put the scorpion on his back and started to cross the river, hwoever when they reached the middle of the river the scorpion stung the frog. The frog said "what have you done? Now we will both drown you f--l". The scorpion replied "I can't help it, it's in my nature".</div><div> </div><div>I'm trying ringo, really trying hard to emulate the Prophet (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) but I don't think I will even come close to within a mile of him.</div><div> </div><div>The Prophet (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) said that the greatest <em>Jihad</em> is the struggle within one self. Insha'Allah with prayer and dua'a I am hoping to get close to that.</div></div> <br /><br />So who is the scorpion and who is the frog?<br />Sorry for being so dumb.<br /><br />Asking because a muslim should not be like that scorpion because islam teaches one to go back on 'fitra' and human 'fitra' is different from scorpions :)<br /><br />A muslim can also not be a frog. We are taught to be careful with those who we are sure of receiving harm from.<br /><br />]]>
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   <pubDate>Mon, 04 Feb 2013 19:05:38 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :  Originally posted by NausheenYou...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=173797#173797</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71203">nospam001</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 04 February 2013 at 2:26pm<br /><br /><P><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Nausheen</strong></em><br /><br />You are not reading the Quran, you are only reading a translation of the verses. <BR>Even arabic speakers cannot know the quran without the background of revelation - so one cannot understand it with mere translation. <BR></div>Legal documents often assume the reader is qualified in law. But when the intended audience is 'the public' law-makers usually try their best to use plain language. It makes things so much simpler.</P><P>By choosing words that are <em>translation-proof</em>, perhaps a higher purpose is being served. I'm not sure what, but maybe it has something to do with the idea of Necessary Evil - that without the undeserved suffering of children (eg through religious conflict and war) there can be no good in the world. </P><P>I think I'm starting to get&nbsp;the hang of it now. </P>]]>
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   <pubDate>Mon, 04 Feb 2013 14:26:30 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :   Originally posted by NausheenGreetings...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=173787#173787</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=69566">Caringheart</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 04 February 2013 at 11:49am<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Nausheen</strong></em><br /><br /><br>Greetings Caringheart,<br><br>Before you dismiss the Quran I want to say this ...<br><br>You are not reading the Quran, you are only reading a translation of the verses. <br>Even arabic speakers cannot know the quran without the background of revelation  - so one cannot understand it with mere translation. <br></div><br><br>Greetings Nausheen,<br><br>I appreciate your words but in my view,<br>Even this is myth.<br>Why would God give us His Word in a form that no one could understand?&nbsp; How could this be the word for the whole world when we are constantly told that no one in the world can understand its meaning?<br>This myth only adds to my reasons for dismissing the authenticity of the qur'an as Word of God.<br>Not saying this to offend, just stating the facts the way I see them.<br>If I am to accept the qu'ran I must be able to read and understand its message, otherwise I am only following the words of man and what man tells me it means.<br><br>Salaam,<br>Caringheart<br>]]>
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   <pubDate>Mon, 04 Feb 2013 11:49:22 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :   Originally posted by truthnowcomeOk,...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=173783#173783</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71774">Rational</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 04 February 2013 at 9:11am<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by truthnowcome</strong></em><br /><br /><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Times">Ok, No oneresponde to me well then I will deal with the matter as a whole....</span></div><br>Assalamo alaik brother,<br><br>That was very informative and illustrates how Jesus(as) cannot be God.<br><br>Jazak Allahu kairan<br><br> ]]>
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   <pubDate>Mon, 04 Feb 2013 09:11:08 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :  Salaam Alaikum, Rational. Originally...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=173781#173781</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71711">TG12345</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 04 February 2013 at 8:33am<br /><br />Salaam Alaikum, Rational.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />I understand what you are saying. Do you call Allah your "father"? Did Muhammad do this? Is God called "the Father" in your mosque?</div><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br />&nbsp;No we don't. God is not a father or a mother or a grandfather whether in a literal or in a symbolic sense. He is Allah, other than whom there is no deity. The term "father" is not included in the 99 attributes of Allah (azza wa jall) for a reason. He (subhanaho wa ta'ala) didn't want that to be part of the final message because it leads to confusion. Just like how you are confused now. Allah has no children, sons or daughters. Jesus was not the son of Allah. You are not a child or a son of Allah.</div><br>But just earlier, you wrote:<br><b><i><br>It's common for people to call their seniors "father" out of respect. When I read about Jesus saying "father", i see it as him saying this out of respect and not the literal meaning. <br></i></b><br>If the term "Father" that Jesus used meant a sign of respect and nothing more, why doesn't Islam call God "Father"? Do you not respect Him?<br><br>Would it be wrong of me to say that Allah is the Father of Muhammad? When you pray, why don't you say "Allah, my Father". After all, it's only out of respect according to you that Jesus called Him that.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br />&nbsp;&nbsp;If Jesus was the son of Allah and we are Allah's children, then surley that would mean that you, me and Jesus are brothers and are all Son's of God?</div><br>Actually, Jesus did say that those who believe in Him and follow Him are the children of God.<br><br>Jesus is the Son of Allah, as well as Allah. Allah exists as three persons, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br /><u>Not using these exact words.</u> He has however said things about Himself that would be only true of God.</div><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br />&nbsp;&nbsp;"<i><span id="en-NIV-26512"><span>I and the Father are one</span></span></i>"<br>"<i><span id="en-NIV-26678"><span>Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father</span></span></i>"<br><br>Again, you're basing your claim on verses that do not say what you are claiming. <u>Those verses do not state what you are claiming</u>. You're giving them an interpretation that suits your personal views, because those verses are vague, and thier meaning can be interchanged. They can be given an interpretation that refutes your claim, which actually makes alot more sense. Watch this video to find out. It's funny because he even shows that your interpretation implies that you have 14 persons in your god, not 3.<br><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2IoyrY5OycY" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2IoyrY5OycY</a><br></div><br>I watched his video, and it is interesting to say the least.<br><br>Zakir Naik claims that every messenger was "the way the truth and the life". What is interesting is that he does not cite any 'messenger' other than Jesus saying that. If the same applied to Muhammad and Moses, where did they say such a thing? Where did Muhammad say "I am the way, the truth and the life, no one comes to the Father but through me"?<br>Also, according to Naik, every prophet was "the way the truth and the life to Almighty God". Yet Jesus said He is the way, the truth and the life and no one comes <b>to the Father </b>but through Him. <br><br>Muhammad did not call Allah the Father.<br><br>He said if you follow the prophets, you are following indirectly the teachings of God. Jesus did not say that those who follow Him "indirectly" follow God.<br><br>He quotes John 10:22-30 and sums it up by saying "in purpose, Jesus said I and my Father are one". Jesus did not say that He and the Father are one "in purpose". That is something Mr Naik inserted into the text.<br><br>He gives a great example, although I think unwittingly. He said "When I mean I and my Father are one, it means I am a doctor, he is a doctor, in profession, we are both medical doctors".<br><br>That's actually true. The Father is God and Jesus is God. So by saying I and my Father are one, Jesus is saying here that He is God! <br><br>He is correct in saying that one does not mean "one as a person". Jesus and the Father are not one as person, they are one God. God exists as three persons- the Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit.<br><br>He 'quotes' John 17:21 saying "My Father is in you, you in me, <u>we all are one</u>".<br><br>This is what the verse actually says:<br><br><b>John 17:20,21<br></b><br><i><span id="en-ESV-26768" ="text="" john-17-20"=""><span ="woj"=""><sup ="versenum"="">20&nbsp;</sup>“I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word,</span></span> <span id="en-ESV-26769" ="text="" john-17-21"=""><span ="woj"=""><sup ="versenum"="">21&nbsp;</sup>that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you, that they also may be in us, so that the world may believe that you have sent me.</span></span> <span id="en-ESV-26770" ="text="" john-17-22"=""><span ="woj"=""></span></span><br></i><br>Jesus did not say that "we all are one", He prayed that the disciples may be in Him and the Father (in <b>us</b>).<br><br>According to Naik, verse 23 states "I am in you, we are one"<br><br>This is what the actual verse says <br><br><b>John 17:23<br></b><br> <i><span id="en-ESV-26771" ="text="" john-17-23"=""><span ="woj"=""><sup ="versenum"="">23&nbsp;</sup>I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me.</span></span> <span id="en-ESV-26772" ="text="" john-17-24"=""><span ="woj"=""></span></span><br></i><br>He claimed that to believe "I and the Father are one" means they are actually one means that one needs to change the Trinity into a concept that means 14 gods. He says that Jesus and the Father and the disciples were one in purpose, and if you don't believe that you need to believe they are all one God.<br><br>Here are the verses Naik was quoting, I will use the to show his misunderstanding.<br><b><br>John 17:21-26</b><i><br><br><span id="en-ESV-26768" ="text="" john-17-20"=""><span ="woj"=""><sup ="versenum"="">20&nbsp;</sup>“I do not ask for these only, but also for those who will believe in me through their word,</span></span> <span id="en-ESV-26769" ="text="" john-17-21"=""><span ="woj"=""><sup ="versenum"="">21&nbsp;</sup>that they may all be one, <b>just as you, Father, are in me, and I in you</b>, that they also may be <b>in us</b>, so that the world may believe that you have sent me.</span></span> <span id="en-ESV-26770" ="text="" john-17-22"=""><span ="woj"=""><sup ="versenum"="">22&nbsp;</sup>The glory that you have given me I have given to them, <b>that they may be one even as we are one,</b></span></span><b> </b><span id="en-ESV-26771" ="text="" john-17-23"=""><span ="woj"=""><b><sup ="versenum"="">23&nbsp;</sup>I in them and you in me, that they may become perfectly one</b>, so that the world may know that you sent me and loved them even as you loved me.</span></span> <span id="en-ESV-26772" ="text="" john-17-24"=""><span ="woj"=""><sup ="versenum"="">24&nbsp;</sup>Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world.</span></span> <span id="en-ESV-26773" ="text="" john-17-25"=""><span ="woj"=""><sup ="versenum"="">25&nbsp;</sup>O righteous Father, even though the world does not know you, I know you, and these know that you have sent me.</span></span> </i><span id="en-ESV-26774" ="text="" john-17-26"=""><span ="woj"=""><i><sup ="versenum"="">26&nbsp;</sup>I made known to them your name, and I will continue to make it known, that the love with which you have loved me may be in them, and I in them.”<br></i><br>Jesus did not say that He, the Father and the disciples "we all are one". No, He prayed that the<i> disciples may be one</i> <u>just as the Father is in Him and He is in the Father</u><br><u><br></u>He did not say He wants "all of us to be one", no He made a clear distinction. He wanted the disciples to be one <b>as</b> He and the Father are. He then wanted them to be <b>in us</b>. <br><br>Let's continue examining verse 23.<br><br>Jesus prayed that the disciples "are one" <i>just as He and the Father are one.&nbsp; </i>He asked that <b>they</b> (not "<b>we"</b>) may become perfectly one.<br></span></span><br>Nowhere did Jesus say that the disciples, Him and the Father "are one". He said He prayed for the disciples to be in Him and the Father and that they will be in them, <i>but He never said that the fourteen of them should be one</i>. He made it very clear that there is a distinction between how He and the Father are one, and how the disciples are to be one.<br><br>Dr Naik mentions John 10:31-36, and said that Jesus merely meant that He and God are one in purpose. Jesus never said He and the Father are one "in purpose". He did not say such a thing anywhere in the Bible.<br><br>He conveniently forgot to quote verse 37... in which Jesus said:<br><br><span id="en-ESV-26506" ="text="" john-10-36"=""><span ="woj"=""><sup ="versenum"="">36&nbsp;</sup>do you say of him whom the Father consecrated and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ <i>because I said, <b>‘I am the Son of God’</b></i><b>?</b></span></span>&nbsp; <br><br>According to Islam, He isn't the Son of God.<br><br>Zakir Naik is a gifted orator, but a loud voice doesn't necessarily mean you are right.<br><br>He misquoted at least 2 passages and left out some important things that they say. Jesus never said that He and the Father are one "in purpose". He also did not say that He, the Father and the disciples "all are one". Jesus made a distinction between the disciples being one and He and the Father being one... something Mr. Zakir Naik either failed to notice or chose to ignore.<br><br>Again, in regards to the "those who have seen me have seen the Father" quote, you claim Muhammad did not say that those who have seen Him have seen Allah, because Muhammad was only a messenger, and not divine.<br><br>If what Jesus said merely meant that He and God are alike in purpose, there should be no problem in saying that those who have seen Muhammad have seen Allah. Next time someone asks you what Allah looks like, tell him to read up on what Muhammad looked like, because those who have seen Muhammad have seen God!<br><br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br />&nbsp;&nbsp;Indeed TG you've been brainwashed. Otherwise you wouldn't believe in a "Living Dead" god.&nbsp;</div><br>I believe in a God who is alive, and who at one point in history was both alive and dead.<br><br>You are the one who is brainwashed into following a religion that teaches you that people have been decreasing in height up to the time of Muhammad; that before Muhammad all prophets have been sent to their people only, despite the fact that your own book claims he was sent to Pharaoh before he was sent to the people of Israel; that teaches Christians and Jews hid the traits of Muhammad in the Gospel and Torah yet at the same time these traits are there and you need to look in these books to find him; that God told all of humanity that milk is palatable to all who drink it despite the fact there are deadly milk allergies... and many more things. <img src="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/smileys/smiley1.gif" border="0" align="absmiddle" alt="Smile" /><br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />Do you believe Allah is better than Satan?</div><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br />&nbsp;&nbsp;Obviously I do. Do you?</div><br>As do I. There are however some non-Muslims who believe Allah (as He is portrayed in the Quran) is Satan. <br><br>Show a verse from&nbsp; the Quran to prove them wrong. Remember, the verse must clearly say "Allah is better than Satan" or "We/I/the Lord of the Worlds am better than Iblis".<br>&nbsp; <br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />There are Muslims who use the Quran to refute the belief held by most other Muslims that the hadiths are Muhammad's sayings and that one needs to follow them.</div><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br />&nbsp;&nbsp;Let's stick to the Quran and the Bible.</div><br>Why is that? Are the hadiths not part of your faith? <br><br>Are you suggesting "we sweep them under the carpet, where they belong" like you accused me of wanting to do with the Bible passages that do not say what you think they say?<br>&nbsp;<div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br />&nbsp;&nbsp;Muslims don't dispute anything in the Quran as the Christians dispute over matters in the Bible. Christians are disputing on <u>who is God</u> in the Bible. Fact.</div><br>We do not dispute what is in the Bible. There are some disagreements over what the Bible means. Most Christians believe Jesus is God. There is a minority who does not because they misinterpret what it teaches.<br><br>You made an amazing claim. <i>Muslims don't dispute anything in the Quran as Christians dispute over matters in the Bible.</i> <br><br>Really?<br><br><br>The Muslims on the site below believe that the Quran confirms that Jesus was crucified, that the Bible we have in our hands today is the Injil and Torah, and that Christians and Jews did not change their Scriptures.<br><br>http://unchangingword.com/<br><br>The Muslims on this site believe the Quran teaches that hell is not eternal<br><br>http://www.islamrevolution.org/ishelleternal.htm<br><br>According to this Muslim, the Quran teaches that to follow the hadiths is a great sin.<br><br>http://www.masjidtucson.org/publications/books/qhi/qhi.html<br><br>I guess since Muslims do not dispute over the Quran as we Christians do, that must mean that you also believe that according to the Quran:<br><br>1) Jesus was crucified<br>2) The Bible is the unchanged and uncorrupted Injil and Torah<br>3) Hell is not eternal<br>4) It is a grave sin to follow or take any religious instruction from the hadith.<br><br>After all, unlike Christians, Muslims do not dispute over what is in the Quran, right?&nbsp;<img src="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif" border="0" align="absmiddle" alt="Wink" /><br><br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />I do not ignore anything in the Bible. I have addressed those passages you pasted on here and have shown you they do not state that Jesus is not God.</div><br>&nbsp;<div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br />&nbsp;&nbsp;Then please refute what the presenter claimed in this video:<br><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2IoyrY5OycY" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2IoyrY5OycY</a><br></div><br>Done already. See above.<br><br>Mr. Naik would do himself a big favour if he did not misquote passages and ignore those that prove him wrong.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />So as long as you worship only God, is it ok to believe believe He isn't better than Satan?</div><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br />&nbsp;&nbsp;What do you think?<br></div><br>I asked you first. <br><br>Again:<br><br>Rational: <i><b>God tells muslims that He is God and we should worship Him and only Him. This is the main part of the message. He then leaves the rest to us. If we obey, then on that day we're ok. </b>If we disobey, then on that day we're not ok, because God told us the message. But for you, you're excused because Jesus never told you he is God and you should worship him. So there is no requirement in worshiping him.</i><br><br>TG12345: So as long as you worship only God, is it ok to believe believe He isn't better than Satan?<br><br><br>Please answer the question. I answer yours.<br>&nbsp;<br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />That's nice, but I don't associate anyone with God. <u>God is God</u>.</div><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br />&nbsp;&nbsp;TG, that's not what you've been saying before. For you, God is not God. For you, God is (<u>God</u> the father + <u>God</u> the son + <u>God</u> the holy spirit).</div><br>As God the Father and God the Son is God and God the Holy Spirit is one God, when I say God is God, that is exactly what I mean.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br />&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;You have <u>THREE</u> images in your mind. An image of an old and wise looking father sitting on a throne, an image of a young handsome looking son, and an image of a spirit. You'll never be able to superimpose them into one image, no matter how hard you try. You will always have three pictures in your head. God is 3 persons remember?</div><br>When did I claim that when I think of God the Father I have an image of "a wise looking father sitting on a throne" or that when I think of Jesus I have an image of "a young handsome looking son" or that I have an image of the Holy Spirit.<br><br>Please don't assume you know what is in my mind. <br><br>I have no idea what God looks like. I don't know how He looks like as the Father, I have no idea how He looks like as Jesus, I have no idea how He looks like as the Holy Spirit.<br><br>I never claimed I did.<br>&nbsp;<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br />&nbsp;&nbsp;TG is <u>one</u> person, <br>Abu Loren is <u>one</u> person,<br>Caringheart is <u>one</u> person,&nbsp; <br>Rational is <u>one</u> person, <br><br>God is <u>three</u> persons.<br><br>Not one, two, four, five, or 10,000. <b>THREE</b> PERSONS!<br><br>Don't forget that.<br></div><br>Yes. God is not a human being, and it is silly to expect He looks like us. <br><br>He does exist as three persons. This does not mean there are three Gods.<br>&nbsp;<br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br />&nbsp;&nbsp;Ofcourse you have more than one god. For some reason you believe it's one god made up of three implying you worship only one. You said that <i>God the father</i> <u>allowed</u> <i>God the son</i> to die. That's two gods TG! Did you see that?</div><br>That would mean I believe in two Gods if I believed the Father and the Son are two separate Gods. However, I believe they are one God.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br />&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Problem is you're stubborn because you choose to ignore reality.</div><br>Problem is you don't understand what I believe, and try to fit it into your narrow view of God.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br />&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;You're acting like a zombie because you follow concepts that don't make sense.</div><br>You are getting frustrated and calling me a "zombie" because the Quran not only falsely portrays God, but you also have a skewed view of how Christians see Him.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br />&nbsp;&nbsp;You struggle to explain things but you don't care you just carry on walking. You make claims like <i>"God was alive and dead at the same time"</i> and you're proud of it.</div><br>I am proud not of myself, but of God. It is amazing that He loved us so much He was willing to suffer for us. It is also amazing He was able to be alive and dead at the same time.<br><br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br />&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;It's much more plausible to claim that Christians are <u>alive and dead at the same time</u>. Walking zombies. Are you offended? You shouldn't be because you made this claim about God.</div><br>Not offended, just amused by your misunderstanding of my faith. It is interesting how Christians on this forum are sometimes attacked for making claims about Islam without reading the Quran in full and misunderstanding what you believe, yet often Muslims do the same thing.<br><br>Calling God "a zombie" because He was alive and dead at the same time according to the Bible, is like calling Him "a conniving neo-con" because the Quran claims He is "the best planner". <br><br>Sure you can say that. It points only to how much you misunderstand Him.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br />&nbsp;&nbsp;By the way, what do you call God when you pray? father, Jesus or holy spirit?</div><br>I usually say "God", since the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit are one God.<br><br>Sometimes I say "Father", especially when I say the Lord's prayer. Sometimes I ask things in "Jesus' Name". Sometimes I address God as Jesus and the Holy Spirit.<br><br>Usually I say God, however, because He is the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.<br><br>BTW what do you call God when you pray?Do you pray to Allah the Almighty? Allah the All-Merciful? The Lord of the Worlds? Which one of them do you call on?<br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br />&nbsp;&nbsp;<br>&#1608;&#1575;&#1604;&#1587;&#1604;&#1575;&#1605; &#1593;&#1604;&#1610;&#1603;&#1605; &#1608;&#1585;&#1581;&#1605;&#1577; &#1575;&#1604;&#1604;&#1607; &#1608;&#1576;&#1585;&#1603;&#1575;&#1578;&#1607;<br></div><br>Wa anta.<br><br>Allahma3k. Blessed be His Name.<br><span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by TG12345 - 04 February 2013 at 8:52am</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Mon, 04 Feb 2013 08:33:38 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :  Originally posted by CaringheartI...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=8">Nausheen</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 04 February 2013 at 7:34am<br /><br /> <div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br /><br />I do not dismiss the qu'ran without first reading it for myself.But then I am truly seeking Truth and want to know Truth.   I am not wishing to hide from any part of it.Salaam,CH<br /><br /><br /></div> <br /><br />Greetings Caringheart,<br /><br />Before you dismiss the Quran I want to say this ...<br /><br />You are not reading the Quran, you are only reading a translation of the verses. <br />Even arabic speakers cannot know the quran without the background of revelation  - so one cannot understand it with mere translation. <br /><br />]]>
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   <pubDate>Mon, 04 Feb 2013 07:34:37 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :         Originally posted...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71774">Rational</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 03 February 2013 at 4:52am<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Webber</strong></em><br /><br />subhanaho wa ta'ala &lt;---- what does this mean?</div><br>Glorified and Exalted be He <span lang="ar">&#1587;&#1576;&#1581;&#1575;&#1606;&#1607; &#1608; &#1578;&#1593;&#1575;&#1604;&#1609;<br><br>In the Quran</span><span lang="ar"><span lang="ar"></span>, Allah (subhanaho wa ta'ala) uses this phrase</span><span lang="ar"> many times in response to those that associate deities with Him (azza wa jall).<br><br><a href="http://tanzil.net/#search/quran/%D8%B3%D8%A8%D8%AD%D8%A7%D9%86%D9%87%20%D9%88%D8%AA%D8%B9%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%89" target="_blank">http://tanzil.net/#search/quran/%D8%B3%D8%A8%D8%AD%D8%A7%D9%86%D9%87%20%D9%88%D8%AA%D8%B9%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%89</a><br><br>What's amazing is that </span><span lang="ar"><span lang="ar">in the Holy Quran, </span>the word "</span><span lang="ar">Glorified" is mentioned 14 times and the word "</span><span lang="ar">Exalted"</span><span lang="ar"><span lang="ar"> </span>is </span><span lang="ar"><span lang="ar">mentioned</span> 14 times also! What are the chances? There are many other examples like this, the Quran is full of Allah's magnificence. Subhana Allah!<br></span><br><span lang="ar">14 times "</span><span lang="ar">Glorified"<br><a href="http://www.searchtruth.com/search.php?keyword=%D8%B3%D8%A8%D8%AD%D8%A7%D9%86%D9%87&amp;chapter=&amp;translator=1&amp;search=1&amp;start=0&amp;records_display=10&amp;search_word=all" target="_blank">http://www.searchtruth.com/search.php?keyword=%D8%B3%D8%A8%D8%AD%D8%A7%D9%86%D9%87&amp;chapter=&amp;translator=1&amp;search=1&amp;start=0&amp;records_display=10&amp;search_word=all</a><br><br>14 times </span><span lang="ar">"</span><span lang="ar">Exalted"</span><span lang="ar"><br><a href="http://www.searchtruth.com/search.php?keyword=%D8%AA%D8%B9%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%89&amp;chapter=&amp;translator=1&amp;search=1&amp;start=0&amp;records_display=10&amp;search_word=all" target="_blank">http://www.searchtruth.com/search.php?keyword=%D8%AA%D8%B9%D8%A7%D9%84%D9%89&amp;chapter=&amp;translator=1&amp;search=1&amp;start=0&amp;records_display=10&amp;search_word=all</a><br><br>But why 14? <img src="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/smileys/smiley1.gif" border="0" align="absmiddle" alt="Smile" /> Allah knows best.<br></span><span lang="ar"></span><span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by Rational - 03 February 2013 at 6:51am</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Sun, 03 Feb 2013 04:52:13 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :   Originally posted by NausheenAbu...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=173702#173702</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=70404">Abu Loren</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 03 February 2013 at 3:04am<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Nausheen</strong></em><br /><br />Abu Loren,<br>Assalamualaikum wa rahamtullah wa barkatuhu,<br><br>I just posted a vedio in the Forum Prophet-Muhammad 'The Strength of Beauty and the beauty of strength'. It is 31+minutes long. Please take a look and humor me.<br><br>Jazak Allahu khair.</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>A frog and a scorpion stood on a river bank and the scorpion said to the frog "put me on your back and carry me across to the other side of the river" the frog replied "no, you will only sting me when we are in the middle" in which the scorpion pleaded " I will not I promise".</div><div>So the frog put the scorpion on his back and started to cross the river, hwoever when they reached the middle of the river the scorpion stung the frog. The frog said "what have you done? Now we will both drown you f--l". The scorpion replied "I can't help it, it's in my nature".</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>I'm trying ringo, really trying hard to emulate the Prophet (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) but I don't think I will even come close to within a mile of him.</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>The Prophet (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) said that the greatest <em>Jihad</em> is the struggle within one self. Insha'Allah with prayer and dua'a I am hoping to get close to that.</div>]]>
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   <pubDate>Sun, 03 Feb 2013 03:04:56 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :    Originally posted by EmpiricistI...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=173695#173695</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=56741">truthnowcome</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 02 February 2013 at 11:59pm<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Empiricist</strong></em><br /><br /><font color="#FF0000">I submit that man cannot begin to comprehend God,</font> that is why he created Jesus, so we could relate to God in human form.&nbsp; Man cannot comprehend that which he cannot see very well- we are trapped in a physical world.&nbsp; This is why the Jews and others worsipped idols.&nbsp; Jews wanted a king.&nbsp; Jews wanted God to come and save them, as a hero.&nbsp; But God did not do that.&nbsp; However some get a taste of God with a "near death experience".&nbsp; They report immense love, white light, etc.&nbsp; This is why Jesus was about love.&nbsp; Muhammed was a man for force, repression, worldly pleasures.&nbsp; Not a "final prophet"- this is impossible.&nbsp; Many have the gift of prophesy.&nbsp; I could say that I am the final prophet but that does not make it true.&nbsp; Any time somebody tells you to not verify what they say and just believe it, is suspect.&nbsp;&nbsp;THis is like&nbsp;a used car salesman.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;The&nbsp;Quran is no contest&nbsp;compared to the Bible.&nbsp;&nbsp;IMO the Quran is&nbsp;clearly a "made up" holy book, to create a religion to control the people.&nbsp; Sorry to offend Muslims but your arguments are feeble.</div>IT IS OK TO SUBMIT YOUR <font color="#FF0000">OPINION</font> NO OFFENSE!<br>PROVE MY ARGUMENT WRONG!<br><br>BR.ZAINOOL<br><br><span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by truthnowcome - 03 February 2013 at 12:01am</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Sat, 02 Feb 2013 23:59:54 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :              &amp;lt;&amp;gt;         WHO...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=173694#173694</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=56741">truthnowcome</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 02 February 2013 at 11:55pm<br /><br /><><!-- /* Font Definiti&#111;ns */@font-face {font-family:Arial; panose-1:2 11 6 4 2 2 2 2 2 4; mso-font-charset:0; mso-generic-font-family:auto; mso-font-pitch:variable; mso-font-signature:-536859905 -1073711037 9 0 511 0;}@font-face {font-family:"&#65325;&#65331; &#26126;&#26397;"; mso-font-charset:78; mso-generic-font-family:auto; mso-font-pitch:variable; mso-font-signature:1 134676480 16 0 131072 0;}@font-face {font-family:"Cambria Math"; panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4; mso-font-charset:0; mso-generic-font-family:auto; mso-font-pitch:variable; mso-font-signature:-536870145 1107305727 0 0 415 0;}@font-face {font-family:Cambria; panose-1:2 4 5 3 5 4 6 3 2 4; mso-font-charset:0; mso-generic-font-family:auto; mso-font-pitch:variable; mso-font-signature:-536870145 1073743103 0 0 415 0;}@font-face {font-family:"MS Mincho"; mso-font-alt:"&#65325;&#65331; &#26126;&#26397;"; mso-font-charset:128; mso-generic-font-family:modern; mso-font-pitch:fixed; mso-font-signature:-536870145 1791491579 18 0 131231 0;} /* Style Definiti&#111;ns */p.Ms&#111;normal, li.Ms&#111;normal, div.Ms&#111;normal {mso-style-unhide:no; mso-style-qat:yes; mso-style-parent:""; margin:0cm; margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-paginati&#111;n:widow-orphan; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";}.MsoChpDefault {mso-style-:ex-&#111;nly; mso-default-props:yes; font-size:10.0pt; mso-ansi-font-size:10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt;}@page WordSecti&#111;n1 {size:612.0pt 792.0pt; margin:72.0pt 90.0pt 72.0pt 90.0pt; mso-er-margin:36.0pt; mso-footer-margin:36.0pt; mso-paper-source:0;}div.WordSecti&#111;n1 {page:WordSecti&#111;n1;}--><p ="Ms&#111;normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">WHO IS THE ONE LIKE THE SON OFMAN?<span style="mso-tab-count:1">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; </span></span></p><p ="Ms&#111;normal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;text-indent:18.0pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">This chapter deals with theclaimed that the Christian’s commentators make…concern “the one like the son ofman”. They claimed that Revelation 1:13 refers to Jesus (S) which is not true;it was an angel whom God Almighty sent to signified the “vision of prophesy” toJohn who then put it in writings which supposed to be in his mother tongue“Aramaic and Hebrew”; and may be later on re written in Greek which is what wehave as the so call original.</span></p><p ="Ms&#111;normal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;text-indent:18.0pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:red;mso-bidi-:EN-US">However, using the English whichwas translated from the Greek… I will point out where they change it tofacilitate their doctrine ...they call it Christians’ theology. In otherswords, they try to twist the message to suite their explanations…to make Jesus(S) into a God. But a closer examination revealed the truth.</span></p><p ="Ms&#111;normal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;text-indent:18.0pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">Now, I will begin quoting fromthe book of revelation 1: 1 where we will see the book of revelation was avision of prophesy to John but it bear the name of Jesus (S), It mentioned:</span></p><p ="Ms&#111;normal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:38.25pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">“<i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal">The <b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal">Revelationof Jesus Christ</b>, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants thingswhich must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel untohis servant John:”</i> </span><a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelati&#111;n%201:1&amp;versi&#111;n=9" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">Rev.1:1</span></a><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US"> </span></i></p><p ="Ms&#111;normal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;text-indent:18.0pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">In the verse above it statedthat God Almighty gave Jesus (S) the revelation and that would be in Heaven.However, there is no such record in Islam that Jesus (S) received revelation inHeaven. It may be God Almighty wants us to acknowledge this vision as arevelation sent to Jesus (S). </span></p><p ="Ms&#111;normal" style="text-indent:18.0pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US"><span style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp; </span>Anyway, Jesus (S) alwaysreceived revelation from God Almighty, it mentioned in John 12:49:<i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"> “<u>For I have not spoken on My ownauthority</u>; but the Father who <u>sent Me gave Me a command, what I shouldsay and what I should speak.</u>"</i> (John 12:49)</span></p><p ="Ms&#111;normal" style="text-indent:18.0pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">&nbsp;</span></p><p ="Ms&#111;normal" style="text-indent:18.0pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">This revelation is a word of prophesy of things to come to pass in thefuture:</span></p><p ="Ms&#111;normal" style="margin-left:38.25pt"><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">Blessed is he that readeth,and they that hear the <b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal">“words of</b> <b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal">this prophecy”</b>, and keep those thingswhich are written therein: for the time is at hand.”</span></i><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;mso-bidi-:EN-US"> (</span></i><a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelati&#111;n%201:3&amp;versi&#111;n=9" target="_blank"><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">Rev.1:3</span></i></a><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;mso-bidi-:EN-US">).<span style="color:black"> </span></span></i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US"></span></p><p ="Ms&#111;normal" style="margin-left:38.25pt"><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">God give unto him to show untohis servants <b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal">things which must shortlycome to pass</b>…” (</span></i><a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelati&#111;n%201:1&amp;versi&#111;n=9" target="_blank"><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">Rev.1:1</span></i></a><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;mso-bidi-:EN-US">)</span></i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US"></span></p><p ="Ms&#111;normal" style="text-indent:18.0pt"><u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">A very important point to note</span></u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">: <u>God “gives” unto him to “show” unto his servant’s</u> things, whichmust shortly come to pass, <b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal">and what hedid?</b> Verse 1 mentioned: <i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal">“…and he(Jesus) <b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal">sent and signified</b> it by his<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal">ANGEL</b> unto his servant John.”</i></span></p><p ="Ms&#111;normal" style="text-indent:18.0pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:red;mso-bidi-:EN-US"><span style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp;</span>Jesus (S) did not come but he “<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal">sent and signified</b> it with an <b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal">ANGEL</b> unto John” and who John saw?</span></p><p ="Ms&#111;normal" style="text-indent:18.0pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;mso-bidi-:EN-US">Itstated in </span><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Cambria;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;&#65325;&#65331; &#26126;&#26397;&quot;"><a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelati&#111;n%201:12-13&amp;versi&#111;n=9" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">Rev.1:</span></a><a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelati&#111;n%201:12-13&amp;versi&#111;n=9" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">12-13</span></a></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;mso-bidi-:EN-US">:</span></p><p ="Ms&#111;normal" style="margin-left:38.25pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;mso-bidi-:EN-US">“<i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><u><span style="color:black">And I turned tosee the voice that spake with me</span></u><span style="color:black">. Andbeing turned, I saw seven golden candlesticks; 13And in the midst of the sevencandlesticks <b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal">one like unto the Son ofman,</b> clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps witha golden girdle.” </span></i></span></p><p ="Ms&#111;normal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;text-indent:18.0pt"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:red;mso-bidi-:EN-US"><span style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp;</span>“One <u>like</u>unto the Son of man”</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:red;mso-bidi-:EN-US"> And notthe son of man! It was that “<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal">Angel” whowas sent to signify the vision unto John</b> and not Jesus (S)! It wasconformed in </span><span style="color:red"><a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelati&#111;n%2022:8-9&amp;versi&#111;n=9" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:red;mso-bidi-:EN-US">Rev.22:8-9</span></a></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:red;mso-bidi-:EN-US">: </span></p><p ="Ms&#111;normal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:38.25pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">“<i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal">And I John saw these things, and heard them.And when I had heard and seen<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal">, I felldown to worship before the <u>feet of the angel which showed me these things.</u></b>9 And he said unto me (John), see thou do it not: <b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal">for “I am” thy fellow servant, and of thy brothering the prophet…</b> <b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal">“WORSHIP GOD”</b></i> </span><a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelati&#111;n%2022:8-9&amp;versi&#111;n=9" target="_blank"><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">Rev.22:8-9</span></i></a><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">:</span></i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US"> <i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp;</span></i></span></p><p ="Ms&#111;normal" style="text-indent:18.0pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">Same thing mentioned in <i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal">Rev.1:17: </i></span></p><p ="Ms&#111;normal" style="margin-left:38.25pt"><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">“And when I saw him, I fell athis feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not;I am the first and the last” Rev.1:17</span></i></p><p ="Ms&#111;normal" style="text-indent:18.0pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US"><span style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp;</span>Note: John did not worship theangel there; he just fell on his feet as dead. Rev. 22 Verse 8-9 that I havequoted above conforms that. Why he is the first and last, is because he wasthere in the beginning: </span></p><p ="Ms&#111;normal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:36.0pt"><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><sup><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;">11</span></sup></i><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;">Behold, I come quickly: hold thatfast which thou hast, that no man take thy crown. <sup>12</sup>Him thatovercometh will I make a pillar in the temple of <b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal"><span style="color:red">my God</span></b>, and he shall go no more out:and I will write upon him the name of <b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal"><span style="color:red">my God</span></b>, and the name of the city of <b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal"><span style="color:red">my God,</span></b>which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from <b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal"><span style="color:red">my God</span></b>:and I will write upon him my new name…</span></i><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">And unto the angel of thechurch of the Laodiceans write; These things saith the <b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal">Amen</b>, the faithful and true witness<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal">, the beginning of the creation of God;”</b> </span></i><a href="http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=re+3%3A14&amp;secti&#111;n=0&amp;it=kjv&amp;oq=re%203%3A14&amp;ot=bhs&amp;nt=na&amp;new=1&amp;nb=re&amp;ng=3&amp;ncc=3" target="_blank"><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">Rev.3:11-14</span></i></a><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;"></span></i></p><p ="Ms&#111;normal" style="text-indent:18.0pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">The “Amen” is the same angel that spoke to John and he has a God, he isa <b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal">“creation of God Almighty” </b>and hehas a<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal"> “beginning”.</b> That angel washere at the creation of Adam (S), to Lot (S) at Sodom and Gomorrah, when theMessiah (S) was born, when Muhammad (S) received his Revelation (see Q.97:4)and he is yet to come again at the end. He is, and was, and yet to come, hesaid: <i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal">“I am the beginning and the end”.</i>God Almighty doesn’t have a beginning; He God Almighty is absolute and eternal.And according the self appointed disciple Paul; he said Jesus (S) is the “<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal">FIRST BORN</b> OF <b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal">ALL CREATION</b>: </span></p><p ="Ms&#111;normal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:red;mso-bidi-:EN-US">“He (Jesus) is the image of the invisible God, the “FIRST BORN OF ALLCREATION”: (Colossians 1:15)</span></p><p ="Ms&#111;normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-bidi-:EN-US">He is the <b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal">“image”</b> of theinvisible God and <span style="color:red">“<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal">not”</b></span>the invisible God! Adam (s) <span style="color:black">and Eve </span>was “created”in the “image” of the same invisible God also:</span></p><p ="Ms&#111;normal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><sup><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:red;mso-bidi-:EN-US">27”</span></sup></i><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:red;mso-bidi-:EN-US">So God created man in his own image, <b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal">in the image of God created he him; male and </b>female created hethem.” (Genesis 1: 27)</span></i></p><p ="Ms&#111;normal" style="text-indent:18.0pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">Peter testimony when address the Jews:</span></p><p ="Ms&#111;normal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:red;mso-bidi-:EN-US">“Ye men of Israel, hear thesewords: Jesus of Nazareth, “<b>a man approve of God”</b> among you by miraclesand wonders and sign, <b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal">which God did byhim</b> in the midst of you, <u>as you your self also know</u>” (</span></i><span style="color:red"><a href="http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=ac+2%3A22&amp;secti&#111;n=0&amp;it=kjv&amp;oq=ac%202%3A22&amp;ot=bhs&amp;nt=na&amp;new=1&amp;nb=ac&amp;ng=2&amp;ncc=2" target="_blank"><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:red;mso-bidi-:EN-US">Acts2:22</span></i></a></span><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:red;mso-bidi-:EN-US">)</span></i></p><p ="Ms&#111;normal" style="text-indent:18.0pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">And Jesus (S) said:<i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"> </i></span></p><p ="Ms&#111;normal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">"I tell you the truth, no<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal">servant</b> is greater than his master,nor is a <b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal">messenger</b> greater than theone who <u>sent him</u>."</span></i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US"> <i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal">(</i></span><a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2013:16&amp;versi&#111;n=9" target="_blank"><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">John13:16</span></i></a><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">) </span></i></p><p ="Ms&#111;normal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">Jesus answered them and said,“My doctrine is not Mine, but His who <u>sent Me</u>.” (</span></i><a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%207:16&amp;versi&#111;n=9" target="_blank"><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">John7:16</span></i></a><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">) “For <b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal">I have not spoken on My own authority</b>; but the Father who <b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal"><u>sent Me</u></b><u> gave Me a command,what I should say and what I should speak.</u>” </span></i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US"><span style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp;</span><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal">(</i></span><a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john%2012:49&amp;versi&#111;n=9" target="_blank"><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">John12:49</span></i></a><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">)</span></i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US"></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">&nbsp;</span></p><p ="Ms&#111;normal" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">“I can of Myself do nothing. <b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal">As I hear, I judge</b>; and My judgment isrighteous, because <b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal">I do not seek My ownwill but the will of the Father who <u>sent Me</u></b>.” (John.5:30)</span></i></p><p ="Ms&#111;normal"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black">Again, one who is sentwith a message is a “messenger” and not God.</span></b></p><p ="Ms&#111;normal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;text-indent:18.0pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">In the above I haveestablished the “one like the son of man” is an “angel” AND NOT JESUS (S).Christians claimed that it was Jesus (S) because of Verse<i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"> Rev.1:18<span style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp; </span>which reads: “<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal">I am he that liveth, and was dead; and,behold, I am alive for evermore</b>, Amen; and have the keys of hell and ofdeath.” </i></span></p><p ="Ms&#111;normal" style="text-indent:18.0pt"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal"><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">“I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive forevermore”</span></i></b><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US"> That is a </span></i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">concoction! Angels don’t die. The truthis, They want to make Jesus (S) God and they some how add it to the book whenthey re write it into they so call original Greek where as it suppose to be inAramaic (the mother tongue of John). The above explanation clearly shows thatJesus (S) didn’t come, but he “<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal"><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal">sent and signified</i></b><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"> it with an <b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal">ANGEL</b> unto John;”</i> and that is whom John saw.</span></p><p ="Ms&#111;normal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:red;mso-bidi-:EN-US">JESUS(S) IS A FAITHFUL WITNESS</span></b><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:red;mso-bidi-:EN-US"> </span></i><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:red;mso-bidi-:EN-US">BACK THERE IN THE BEGINNING:</span></b></p><p ="Ms&#111;normal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:36.0pt"><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">“John to the seven churches which are inAsia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal">“him” </b>which is, and which was, and which is to come; <b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal">“and” from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;</b></span></i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US"> V.5<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal"><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"> </i></b></span><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal"><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:red;mso-bidi-:EN-US">“And”</span></i></b><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:red;mso-bidi-:EN-US"> from Jesus Christ, <b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal"><u>who is the faithful witness</u></b>…”<u> </u></span></i><span style="color:red"><a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelati&#111;n%201:4-5&amp;versi&#111;n=9" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:red;mso-bidi-:EN-US">Rev.1:&nbsp;4</span></a></span><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><u><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:red;mso-bidi-:EN-US">-5</span></u></i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:red;mso-bidi-:EN-US"></span></p><p ="Ms&#111;normal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;text-indent:18.0pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US"><span style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp; </span>As you can see all are distinct personality, </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:blue;mso-bidi-:EN-US">First God Almighty:</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US"> <b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal">“<i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal">Grace be unto you, and peace, from ‘him’which is, and which was, and which is to come</i></b><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal">”;</i> </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:blue;mso-bidi-:EN-US">then </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">the seven Spirits which is before thethrone: </span><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal"><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:blue;mso-bidi-:EN-US">“and</span></i></b><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal"><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US"> from the seven Spirits which are <u>beforehis throne</u>”</span></i></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">; </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:blue;mso-bidi-:EN-US">and then</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US"> Jesus Christ who is a Faithfull witness: </span><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal"><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:blue;mso-bidi-:EN-US">“and from</span></i></b><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal"><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">Jesus Christ, who is the <u>faithful witness</u>”.</span></i></b><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US"></span></i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">If the seven Spirits of GodAlmighty was part of Him well then they would also be on the throne, but theywere </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:red;mso-bidi-:EN-US">before the throne worshiping GodAlmighty.</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US"> So the One, which is, whichwas and which is to come is “GOD ALMIGHTY” because God Almighty existed as heis, He was here when Adam was created on earth; and is yet to come in the end.In Rev. 1: 8 mentioned that! He is </span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:red;mso-bidi-:EN-US">the ALMIGHTY</span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">: </span></p><p ="Ms&#111;normal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:18.0pt"><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:blue;mso-bidi-:EN-US">“I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning andthe ending, saith the Lord, <b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal">which is,and which was, and which is to come</b>, </span></i><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:red;mso-bidi-:EN-US">the<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal"> ALMIGHTY</b>”.</span></i><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US"> </span></i><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Cambria;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;&#65325;&#65331; &#26126;&#26397;&quot;"><a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelati&#111;n%20%201:8&amp;versi&#111;n=9" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">Rev.1:</span></a><a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelati&#111;n%20%201:8&amp;versi&#111;n=9" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">8</span></a></span><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">&nbsp;</span></i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US"></span></p><p ="Ms&#111;normal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">The seven spirits were before AlmightyGod’s Throne and Jesus (S) was a “faithful witness”. In Revelation 4: 2-11 and5:1-7 mentioned who was on the Throne: </span></p><p ="Ms&#111;normal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:18.0pt"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Cambria;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;&#65325;&#65331; &#26126;&#26397;&quot;"><a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Revelati&#111;n%20%204&amp;versi&#111;n=9" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US;text-decorati&#111;n:n&#111;ne;text-underline:n&#111;ne">Revelation4:2-11: </span></a></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US"></span></p><p ="Ms&#111;normal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:36.0pt"><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">And immediately I (John) was in thespirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and <b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal">one sat on the throne</b>. Rev. 4:2</span></i></p><p ="Ms&#111;normal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;text-indent:18.0pt"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">The one that sits on the throne is God!</span></b></p><p ="Ms&#111;normal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:36.0pt"><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">And he that sat</span></i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US"> <b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal"><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><u>was to look upon</u></i></b><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><u> like a jasper</u> and a sardine stone:and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.Rev.4:3</i></span></p><p ="Ms&#111;normal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:36.0pt"><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US"><span style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp;</span>Andround about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I sawfour and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on theirheads crowns of gold. Rev.4:4<span style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp; </span></span></i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US"></span></p><p ="Ms&#111;normal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:36.0pt"><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">And out of the throne preceded lightningsand thunderings and voices: and <u>there were seven lamps of fire burningbefore the throne</u>, <b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal">which are theseven Spirits of God.</b> Rev.4:5 <b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal"><span style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp;</span></b></span></i></p><p ="Ms&#111;normal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;text-indent:18.0pt"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">The seven Spirit is before the throne andnot on the throne; they are not part of God Almighty.</span></b></p><p ="Ms&#111;normal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:36.0pt"><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">And when those beasts give glory andhonour and thanks to him that <b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal">sat on thethrone, who liveth for ever and ever</b>, Rev.4:9</span></i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US"></span></p><p ="Ms&#111;normal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:36.0pt"><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive gloryand honour and power: for thou hast created all things, and for thy pleasurethey are and were created. Rev.4:11</span></i></p><p ="Ms&#111;normal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:red;mso-bidi-:EN-US">THEONE THAT SITS ON THE THRONE:</span></b></p><p ="Ms&#111;normal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;text-indent:18.0pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">Revelation 5</span></p><p ="Ms&#111;normal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:38.2pt"><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">And I saw in the right hand of “him thatsat on the throne” a book written within and on the backside, sealed with sevenseals. Rev.5:1</span></i></p><p ="Ms&#111;normal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;text-indent:18.0pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">The One that sits on thethrone has a book, and what he did with it? Let’s find out<i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal">.</i></span></p><p ="Ms&#111;normal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:38.2pt;:white"><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black">And one of the elderssaith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root ofDavid, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven sealsthereof.Rev.5:5 </span></i></p><p ="Ms&#111;normal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:38.2pt;:white"><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;color:black">And I beheld, and, lo,in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of theelders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes,which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. Rev.5:6</span></i></p><p ="Ms&#111;normal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:38.2pt"><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">And he came and took the book out of theright hand of him</span></i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US"> <i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal">that <b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal">satupon the throne.</b> Rev.5:7</i></span></p><p ="Ms&#111;normal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;text-indent:18.0pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">You see that? The One thatsits on the throne has a book, and what happen with the book? The lamb took it<u>.So, who took the book out of the right hand of him that sat on the throne? <b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal">The Lamb!</b> And who is sitting on thethrone? <b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal">God Almighty!</b></u></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:red;mso-bidi-:EN-US"> </span></p><p ="Ms&#111;normal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;text-indent:18.0pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">Nothing new! It’s all inRevelation 1:1</span></p><p ="Ms&#111;normal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:36.0pt"><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">The Revelation of Jesus Christ, </span></i><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal"><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:red;mso-bidi-:EN-US">which God gave unto him,</span></i></b><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sentand signified it by his angel unto his servant John. Rev.1:1</span></i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US"></span></p><p ="Ms&#111;normal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:36.0pt"><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">“For I have not spoken on My ownauthority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say andwhat I should speak."</span></i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US"><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal">(John 12:49)</i></span></p><p ="Ms&#111;normal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;text-indent:18.0pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">And who was Jesus (S)?Revelation 1:5 says:</span></p><p ="Ms&#111;normal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:36.0pt"><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">“Jesus Christ, <b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal">who is the faithful witness!</b>”</span></i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US"></span></p><p ="Ms&#111;normal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;text-indent:18.0pt"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:red;mso-bidi-:EN-US">And who is God Almighty? He is the“creator”:</span></b></p><p ="Ms&#111;normal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:36.0pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">“<i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal">Thou art worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: </i></span><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal"><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:red;mso-bidi-:EN-US">for thou hast created all things</span></i></b><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:red;mso-bidi-:EN-US">,and</span></i><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US"> for thy pleasure they are and were created.<span style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp; </span>Rev.4:11</span></i></p><p ="Ms&#111;normal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:36.0pt"><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">And when those beasts give glory andhonour and thanks<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal"> to him that sat on thethrone, who liveth for ever and ever,” Rev.4:9<span style="mso-spacerun:yes"> <br></span></b></span></i></p><p ="Ms&#111;normal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:36.0pt"><br><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal"><span style="mso-spacerun:yes"></span></b></span></i></p><p ="Ms&#111;normal" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:36.0pt"><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal"><span style="mso-spacerun:yes">Br.zainool<br></span></b></span></i></p>]]>
   </description>
   <pubDate>Sat, 02 Feb 2013 23:55:16 +0000</pubDate>
   <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=173694#173694</guid>
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  <item>
   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :                ...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=173693#173693</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=56741">truthnowcome</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 02 February 2013 at 11:31pm<br /><br />&lt;&gt;<!-- /* Font Definiti&#111;ns */@font-face {font-family:Arial; panose-1:2 11 6 4 2 2 2 2 2 4; mso-font-charset:0; mso-generic-font-family:auto; mso-font-pitch:variable; mso-font-signature:-536859905 -1073711037 9 0 511 0;}@font-face {font-family:"Courier New"; panose-1:2 7 3 9 2 2 5 2 4 4; mso-font-charset:0; mso-generic-font-family:auto; mso-font-pitch:variable; mso-font-signature:-536859905 -1073711037 9 0 511 0;}@font-face {font-family:Times; panose-1:2 0 5 0 0 0 0 0 0 0; mso-font-charset:0; mso-generic-font-family:auto; mso-font-pitch:variable; mso-font-signature:3 0 0 0 1 0;}@font-face {font-family:Wingdings; panose-1:5 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0; mso-font-charset:2; mso-generic-font-family:auto; mso-font-pitch:variable; mso-font-signature:0 268435456 0 0 -2147483648 0;}@font-face {font-family:Wingdings; panose-1:5 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0 0; mso-font-charset:2; mso-generic-font-family:auto; mso-font-pitch:variable; mso-font-signature:0 268435456 0 0 -2147483648 0;}@font-face {font-family:Calibri; panose-1:2 15 5 2 2 2 4 3 2 4; mso-font-charset:0; mso-generic-font-family:auto; mso-font-pitch:variable; mso-font-signature:-520092929 1073786111 9 0 415 0;}@font-face {font-family:"MS Mincho"; mso-font-alt:"&#65325;&#65331; &#26126;&#26397;"; mso-font-charset:128; mso-generic-font-family:modern; mso-font-pitch:fixed; mso-font-signature:-536870145 1791491579 18 0 131231 0;}@font-face {font-family:"Lucida Calligraphy"; panose-1:3 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1; mso-font-charset:0; mso-generic-font-family:auto; mso-font-pitch:variable; mso-font-signature:3 0 0 0 1 0;} /* Style Definiti&#111;ns */p.Ms&#111;normal, li.Ms&#111;normal, div.Ms&#111;normal {mso-style-unhide:no; mso-style-qat:yes; mso-style-parent:""; margin:0cm; margin-bottom:.0001pt; mso-paginati&#111;n:widow-orphan; font-size:12.0pt; font-family:"Times New Roman"; mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";}.MsoChpDefault {mso-style-:ex-&#111;nly; mso-default-props:yes; font-size:10.0pt; mso-ansi-font-size:10.0pt; mso-bidi-font-size:10.0pt;}@page WordSecti&#111;n1 {size:612.0pt 792.0pt; margin:72.0pt 90.0pt 72.0pt 90.0pt; mso-er-margin:36.0pt; mso-footer-margin:36.0pt; mso-paper-source:0;}div.WordSecti&#111;n1 {page:WordSecti&#111;n1;} /* List Definiti&#111;ns */@list l0 {mso-list-id:1664354283; mso-list-:hybrid; mso-list-template-ids:-126684788 67698699 67698691 67698693 67698689 67698691 67698693 67698689 67698691 67698693;}@list l0:level1 {mso-level-number-at:bullet; mso-level-text:&#61656;; mso-level-tab-stop:n&#111;ne; mso-level-number-:left; margin-left:56.2pt; text-indent:-18.0pt; font-family:Wingdings;}@list l0:level2 {mso-level-number-at:bullet; mso-level-text:o; mso-level-tab-stop:n&#111;ne; mso-level-number-:left; margin-left:92.2pt; text-indent:-18.0pt; font-family:"Courier New";}@list l0:level3 {mso-level-number-at:bullet; mso-level-text:&#61607;; mso-level-tab-stop:n&#111;ne; mso-level-number-:left; margin-left:128.2pt; text-indent:-18.0pt; font-family:Wingdings;}@list l0:level4 {mso-level-number-at:bullet; mso-level-text:&#61623;; mso-level-tab-stop:n&#111;ne; mso-level-number-:left; margin-left:164.2pt; text-indent:-18.0pt; font-family:Symbol;}@list l0:level5 {mso-level-number-at:bullet; mso-level-text:o; mso-level-tab-stop:n&#111;ne; mso-level-number-:left; margin-left:200.2pt; text-indent:-18.0pt; font-family:"Courier New";}@list l0:level6 {mso-level-number-at:bullet; mso-level-text:&#61607;; mso-level-tab-stop:n&#111;ne; mso-level-number-:left; margin-left:236.2pt; text-indent:-18.0pt; font-family:Wingdings;}@list l0:level7 {mso-level-number-at:bullet; mso-level-text:&#61623;; mso-level-tab-stop:n&#111;ne; mso-level-number-:left; margin-left:272.2pt; text-indent:-18.0pt; font-family:Symbol;}@list l0:level8 {mso-level-number-at:bullet; mso-level-text:o; mso-level-tab-stop:n&#111;ne; mso-level-number-:left; margin-left:308.2pt; text-indent:-18.0pt; font-family:"Courier New";}@list l0:level9 {mso-level-number-at:bullet; mso-level-text:&#61607;; mso-level-tab-stop:n&#111;ne; mso-level-number-:left; margin-left:344.2pt; text-indent:-18.0pt; font-family:Wingdings;}ol {margin-bottom:0cm;}ul {margin-bottom:0cm;}--><p ="ms&#111;normal"=""><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Times"><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by truthnowcome</strong></em><br /><br />Salaamto all,<br><br>I was more taken up in truing to unite the world against toe Masons. Now thatmy message has reach home I have the time to engage on the level of Dawah.<br><br>This discussion has move from it original topic to weather if Jesus (S) is Godor not. however, in response to weather if all Christians are going to Hell ornot Allah (S) knows best. Although He made it clear that people who believe inthe one true God will go to Heaven and the other hand those who worship createdbeings and associate partner with him would not enter Heaven we are not allowedto point out who will enter hell or Heaven only Allah (S) knows. Our mission isto conveyed the message to believe in the one true God and do not associatepartner with him, and if any one do they will not enter Heaven.<br><br>As for if Jesus (S) is God my first question and this is for TG, Can youexplain which part of Jesus (S) is the God part, and which is man part.<br><br>I need some clarification although it was proven that he prayed to some onesuperior to him whom he call "his God".<br><br>Br.&nbsp; zainool<br><br>Br. zainool&nbsp; &nbsp; <br></div> Salaam!</span></p><p ="ms&#111;normal"=""><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Times">&nbsp;</span></p><p ="ms&#111;normal"=""><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Times">Ok, No oneresponde to me well then I will deal with the matter as a whole.</span></p><p ="ms&#111;normal"="" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;text-indent:18.0pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">To explain who Jesus (S) is Iwill begin with quoting from the Qur’an. We Muslims believed that all themiracle he did was with the permission of Allah (S). It is mentioned in the <b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal">Qur'an 3: 49-51</b> That Jesus (S)said:<span style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp; </span>“<i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal">Lo! I come unto you with a sign from your Lord. Lo! I fashion for youout of clay the likeness of a bird, and I breathe into it and it is a bird <b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal">by Allah's leave</b>. I heal him who wasborn blind, and the leper, and I raise the dead, <b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal">by Allah's leave</b>. And I announce to you what you eat and what youstore up in your houses. Lo! herein verily is a portent for you if you are tobe believers. <br>And (I come) confirming that which was before me of the Torah, and to makelawful some of that which was forbidden unto you. I come unto you with a signfrom your Lord, so keep your duty to Allah and obey me. Lo! <b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal">Allah is my Lord and your Lord, so worshipHim. That is a straight path.</b></i>”</span></p><p ="ms&#111;normal"="" style="text-indent:18.0pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US"><span style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp;</span>The N.T. also supported theQur’an in that statement of Jesus’ (S), he said:<i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"> <b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal">“I can of Myself do nothing</b>.As I hear, I judge; and My judgment is righteous, <b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal">because I do not seek My own will </b>but the will of the Father who <b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal"><u>sent Me</u></b>.” (John.5:30);</i> <i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal">“For <b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal">Ihave not spoken on My own authority</b>; but the Father who <b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal"><u>sent Me</u></b><u> gave Me a command,what I should say and what I should speak.</u>”<span style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp;</span>(</i></span><a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john%2012:49&amp;versi&#111;n=9" target="_blank"><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">John12:49</span></i></a><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">)</span></i></p><p ="ms&#111;normal"="" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;text-indent:18.0pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">&nbsp;</span></p><p ="ms&#111;normal"="" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;text-indent:18.0pt"><font color="#FF0000"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">JESUS (S) REVEALED HIS TRUE IDENTITY TOHIS DISCIPLES</span></b></font></p><p ="ms&#111;normal"="" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;text-indent:18.0pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">It is stated in </span><a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2016&amp;versi&#111;n=9" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">Matthew 16:<b>13-15</b></span></a><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">:</span></p><p ="ms&#111;normal"="" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:39.05pt"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">“</span></b><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">WhenJesus came into the coasts of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples,saying, Whom do men say that I the Son of man am? <b>14</b>And they said, Somesay that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremiah, or oneof the prophets. <b>15</b>He saith unto them, <b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal"><u>But whom say ye that I am?”</u></b></span></i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US"> </span><a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2016&amp;versi&#111;n=9" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">Matthew 16:<b>13-15</b></span></a><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US"><br style="mso-special-character:line-break"></span></i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US"></span></p><p ="ms&#111;normal"="" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;text-indent:18.0pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US"><span style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp; </span>Very important question, he is about to letyou know who he is. </span></p><p ="ms&#111;normal"="" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:39.05pt"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal"><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">V.16</span></i></b><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">Simon Peter answered and said, </span></i><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">“You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.”</span></b><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US"></span></i><a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2016:15-18&amp;versi&#111;n=50" target="_blank"><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US;text-decorati&#111;n:n&#111;ne;text-underline:n&#111;ne">Matt.16:16</span></i></a><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US"></span></i></p><p ="ms&#111;normal"="" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;text-indent:18.0pt"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US"><span style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp;</span>Note:</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US"> the word <b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal">"Christ"</b>is Messiah in Hebrew:</span></p><p ="ms&#111;normal"="" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:39.05pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US"><span style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp;</span></span><a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%201:41&amp;versi&#111;n=50" target="_blank"><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">John1:41 “</span></i><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US;text-decorati&#111;n:n&#111;ne;text-underline:n&#111;ne">He firstfindeth his own brother Simon, and saith unto him, We have found the </span></i><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">Messiah,which is, being interpreted, the Christ;</span></i><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US;text-decorati&#111;n:n&#111;ne;text-underline:n&#111;ne">”</span></i></a><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US"> </span></i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">and in </span><a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john%204&amp;versi&#111;n=9" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">John 4:25-26</span></a><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">&nbsp;“<i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal">Thewoman saith unto him, <u>I know that Messiah cometh, which is called Christ</u>:when he is come, he will tell us all things. <b>26</b>Jesus saith unto her, <u>Ithat speak unto thee <b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal">am he.”</b></u> </i></span></p><p ="ms&#111;normal"="" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;text-indent:18.0pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">Having said that, let us lookat the Verse17:</span></p><p ="ms&#111;normal"="" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:39.05pt"><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">Jesus answered and said to him, “Blessedare you, Simon Bar-Jonah, for flesh and blood has not revealed <span style="mso-bidi-font-style:italic">this</span> to you, but My Father who is inheaven.</span></i><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">V.18</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US"> <i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal">And I also sayto you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build My church, and thegates of Hades shall not prevail against it.</i> </span><a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2016:15-18&amp;versi&#111;n=50" target="_blank"><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">Matt.16:17<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal"> </b></span></i></a><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US"></span></i></p><p ="ms&#111;normal"="" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;text-indent:18.0pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US"><span style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp;</span><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal">Notevery important:</b> Jesus (S) made his claimed that h<span style="mso-bidi-font-weight:bold">e is the Messiah (foretold in the OT.), the Son of the living God; <u>hedidn’t claimed he is God Almighty</u>!</span>&nbsp;</span></p><p ="ms&#111;normal"="" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;text-indent:18.0pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">When Jesus (S) mentioned, <i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal">“he is the Messiah, <span style="mso-bidi-font-weight:bold">the Son of the living God”, </span></i><span style="mso-bidi-font-weight:bold">that does not mean God has a biological son or he is a part of God asChristians believe; they misunderstood Jesus (S) statement in context of hismessage. The O.T. clearly stated Adam (S) the first Man the God of Abraham(s)created is his son and anyone who led by the spirit of God is the sons of God;and Jesus (S) falls in that category.</span></span></p><p ="ms&#111;normal"="" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">In the N.T. it mentioned:</span></p><p ="ms&#111;normal"="" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:36.0pt"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal"><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">“…Adam, which was the son ofGod.” Luke3:38 </span></i></b><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US"><span style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp;</span></span></b></p><p ="ms&#111;normal"="" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:36.0pt"><b><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">For as many as are led by the Spirit ofGod, they are the Sons of God. (</span></i></b><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US"> <b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal">Romans 8:14)</b></span></i></p><p ="ms&#111;normal"="" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;text-indent:18.0pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial">Jesus (S)was led by the spirit of God:</span></p><p ="ms&#111;normal"="" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:36.0pt"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">“<i><span style="mso-bidi-font-weight:bold">I saw the Spirit descending from heaven..., and abode upon him.”(John1:32)</span></i></span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US;mso-bidi-font-weight:bold;mso-bidi-font-style:italic"> </span></p><p ="ms&#111;normal"="" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:36.0pt"><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial">"...I cast out devils <span style="mso-bidi-font-style:italic">by the Spirit of God</span> then the kingdomof God is come unto you." (Matthew 12:28)</span></i></p><p ="ms&#111;normal"="" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:36.0pt"><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial"><span style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp;</span>"I can of mine <span style="mso-bidi-font-style:italic">own self</span> do nothing " (John 5:30)</span></i></p><p ="ms&#111;normal"="" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><font color="#FF0000"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial">JESUS (S) EXPLAINED WHAT HE MEANT BY SAYING HE IS THE MESSIAH SON OF THELIVING GOD.</span></b></font><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US"></span></b></p><p ="ms&#111;normal"="" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;text-indent:18.0pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">Let us look at </span><a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John10:23-36&amp;versi&#111;n=9" target="_blank"><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">John10:23-32</span></i></a><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">; this explanation was givenby the late Ahmad Deedat (May Allah (S) grant him Jannah):<i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"> </i></span></p><p ="ms&#111;normal"="" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:36.0pt"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal"><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">23</span></i></b><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">AndJesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch. </span></i></p><p ="ms&#111;normal"="" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:36.0pt"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal"><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">24</span></i></b><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou makeus to doubt? If thou be the Christ<b>, tell us plainly</b>.</span></i></p><p ="ms&#111;normal"="" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:36.0pt"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal"><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">25</span></i></b><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in myFather's name, they bear witness of me.</span></i></p><p ="ms&#111;normal"="" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:36.0pt"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal"><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">26</span></i></b><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep... </span></i></p><p ="ms&#111;normal"="" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;text-indent:18.0pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US"><span style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp;</span>Jesus (S) rebuts the false charge of the Jewsthat he was ambiguous in his claims to be the <b>Messiah that they were waitingfor</b>. He says that he did tell them clearly enough, yet they would not listento him. So he said:</span></p><p ="ms&#111;normal"="" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:36.0pt"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal"><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">27</span></i></b><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: </span></i></p><p ="ms&#111;normal"="" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:36.0pt"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal"><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">28 </span></i></b><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">AndI give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall anyman </span></i><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">pluck them out of <u>my hand</u>.</span></b><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US"></span></i></p><p ="ms&#111;normal"="" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:36.0pt"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal"><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">29</span></i></b><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to </span></i><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">pluck them out of <u>my Father's hand</u>.</span></b><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US"></span></i></p><p ="ms&#111;normal"="" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;text-indent:18.0pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US"><span style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp;</span>Yousee the <b>exactness of the ending of the last two verses</b><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal">?</b></span></p><p ="ms&#111;normal"="" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;text-indent:18.0pt"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US"><span style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp;</span>Pluck them out of “my hand”</span></b></p><p ="ms&#111;normal"="" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;text-indent:18.0pt"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US"><span style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp;</span>Pluck them out of “my Father's hand.”</span></b></p><p ="ms&#111;normal"="" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;text-indent:18.0pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US"><span style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp;</span>Heis telling the Jews the "REAL UNITY" or "RELATIONSHIP"between the Father and the son. The most crucial verse - </span></p><p ="ms&#111;normalcxspmiddle"="" style="margin-top:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:56.2pt;mso-add-space:auto;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><font color="#FF0000"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Wingdings;"><span style="mso-list:Ignore"><span style="font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;</span></span></span><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal"><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">V.30</span></i></b><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> - </span></i><b><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">I and my Father are one.</span></b></font><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US"></span></i></p><p ="ms&#111;normal"="" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;text-indent:18.0pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US"><span style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp;</span><font color="#FF0000">Onein what, DIVINITY? NO! ONE IN "PURPOSE" Once a believer has acceptedfaith, then Jesus (S) sees to it he remain in faith and God Almighty also seesto it that he remains in faith. This is the "PURPOSE" of the"Father" and the "son" and the "Holy Ghost" andof "every man and every woman of faith". John said that in </font></span><font color="#FF0000"><a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2017:21&amp;versi&#111;n=9" target="_blank"><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">John17:21</span></i></a><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal"><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;"> </span></i></b></font></p><font color="#FF0000"></font><p ="ms&#111;normalcxspmiddle"="" style="margin-top:0cm;margin-right:0cm;margin-bottom:12.0pt;margin-left:56.2pt;mso-add-space:auto;text-indent:-18.0pt;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><font color="#FF0000"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Wingdings;"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">Ø<span style="font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp; </span></span></span><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">Thatthey <b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal">"ALL"</b> may be <b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal">"ONE";</b> as thou, Father, artin me, and I in thee, that also may be <b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal">"ONE"</b>in <b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal">"US"...</b>I in them, and"THOU (THE DICIPLES) in <b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal">“ME</b> </span></i><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">(JESUS)<i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal">”,that "THEY </i>(ALL)<i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"> may be made <b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal">"PERFECT in ONE".</b>.. </i></span><a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2017:21&amp;versi&#111;n=9" target="_blank"><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">John17:21</span></i></a></font><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US"></span></p><p ="ms&#111;normal"="" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;text-indent:18.0pt"><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US"><span style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp;</span></span></i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">The Jews also miss the point like all Christians.</span></p><p ="ms&#111;normal"="" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:38.2pt"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal"><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">31</span></i></b><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">Thenthe Jews took up stones again to stone him. </span></i></p><p ="ms&#111;normal"="" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:38.2pt"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal"><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">32 - </span></i></b><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">Jesusanswered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which ofthose works do ye stone me? </span></i></p><p ="ms&#111;normal"="" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:38.2pt"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal"><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">33-</span></i></b><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">TheJews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but forblasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. </span></i></p><p ="ms&#111;normal"="" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:38.2pt"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal"><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">34</span></i></b><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">-Jesusanswered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, </span></i><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">Ye are gods? </span></b></p><p ="ms&#111;normal"="" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:38.2pt"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal"><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">35</span></i></b><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">-Ifhe (God Almighty) called them (the Jews) gods, unto whom the word of God came,and the scripture cannot be broken; </span></i></p><p ="ms&#111;normal"="" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:38.2pt"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal"><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">36-</span></i></b><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">Sayye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thoublasphemest; because I said, <b>I am the Son of God?</b></span></i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US"> </span><a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John10:23-36&amp;versi&#111;n=9" target="_blank"><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">John10:23-36</span></i></a><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US"></span></i></p><p ="ms&#111;normal"="" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;text-indent:18.0pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">Jesus said: <b>"YOUR LAW... YE AREGODS."</b> He is quoting from </span><a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalms82:6&amp;versi&#111;n=9" target="_blank"><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">82nd.Psalm V.6</span></i></a><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US"> <b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal">“I have said, YE ARE GODS: and all of youare children of the most High.”</b></span></p><p ="ms&#111;normal"="" style="margin-bottom:12.0pt;text-indent:18.0pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US"><span style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp;</span>Jesus is saying, "If He (God Almighty)called them (holy men) God, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripturecannot be broken (in other words - YOU CAN'T CONTRADICT ME!)." He knowshis scripture<u>; if good men, holy men, prophets of God are address as 'GODS'in our Books of authority, with which you find no fault - </u><b>then why doyou take exception to me?</b><u> </u></span></p><p ="ms&#111;normal"="" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">So, as you can clearly Jesus (S) himselfexplained his position as the son of God.</span><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial"></span></i></p><p ="ms&#111;normal"="" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:18.0pt"><b><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">For as many as are led by the Spirit ofGod, they are the Sons of God. (</span></i></b><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal"><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">Romans 8:14)</span></i></b><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US"></span></i></p><p ="ms&#111;normal"="" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;text-indent:18.0pt"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">JESUS (S) DECLARED WHERE WOULD BE THECHURCH.</span></b></p><p ="ms&#111;normal"="" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;text-indent:18.0pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US"><span style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp;</span>Remember what Jesus (S) said in Matt.16:15-18?He said: “<i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal">Bless art thou, Simon Bar-jona:for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is inheaven. And I say also unto thee, Thou art Peter, and <b>upon this rock I willbuild my church</b>; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.”</i> </span></p><p ="ms&#111;normal"="" style="text-indent:18.0pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">&nbsp; <font color="#FF0000">Peter name was “Simon Bar-jona” and Jesus (S) change his name to“Peter” (Little Rock).<b> The Rock represent Peter’s message;</b> and upon thisrock I will build my church. Peter was the only one knew who Jesus (S) was whenhe said:&nbsp;<b>“Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God,”</b> heunderstood that <u>anyone led by the Spirit of God is the Son of God.</u></font> </span></p><p ="ms&#111;normal"="" style="margin-left:18.0pt"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the Sons of God.</span></b><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">(</span></i><a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans.8:14&amp;versi&#111;n=9" target="_blank"><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">Romans.8:14</span></i></a><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">)<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal"> </b></span></i></p><p ="ms&#111;normal"="" style="margin-left:18.0pt"><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">“…the Lord hath said unto me,(David) Thou art my son: this day have I begotten thee.”</span></i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US"> <b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal"><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal">(</i></b></span><a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Psalms.2:7&amp;versi&#111;n=9" target="_blank"><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">Psalms.2:7</span></i></a><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal"><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">)</span></i></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US"></span></p><p ="ms&#111;normal"="" style="text-indent:18.0pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">Jesus (S) was led by Spirit of God:</span></p><p ="ms&#111;normal"="" style="margin-left:18.0pt"><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">“And John bare record, saying,I saw the Spirit descending from heaven…and abode upon him.”</span></i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US"> <i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal">(</i></span><a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John.1:32&amp;versi&#111;n=9" target="_blank"><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">John.1:32</span></i></a><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">)</span></i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US"></span></p><p ="ms&#111;normal"="" style="margin-left:18.0pt"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">…I cast out devil by the Spirit of God.</span></b><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US"> Then the kingdom of God iscome unto you.</span></i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US"> <i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal">(</i></span><a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2012:28&amp;versi&#111;n=9" target="_blank"><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">Matt.12:28</span></i></a><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">)</span></i><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US"></span></b></p><p ="ms&#111;normal"="" style="margin-left:18.0pt"><b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">I can of mine own self do nothing…</span></b><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US"> (</span></i><a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John.5:30&amp;versi&#111;n=9" target="_blank"><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">John.5:30</span></i></a><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">)</span></i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US"></span></p><p ="ms&#111;normal"="" style="margin-left:18.0pt"><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">…I with the finger of God castout devil… (</span></i><a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Luke.11:20&amp;versi&#111;n=9" target="_blank"><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">Luke.11:20</span></i></a><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">)</span></i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US"></span></p><p ="ms&#111;normal"="" style="margin-left:18.0pt"><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">For whosoever shall do thewill of my Father which is in heaven, <u>the same is my brother, and sister,and mother.</u></span></i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US"> (</span><a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2012:50&amp;versi&#111;n=9" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">Matthew 12:50</span></a><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">)&nbsp;</span></p><p ="ms&#111;normal"="" style="text-indent:18.0pt"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:red;mso-bidi-:EN-US">PETER TESTIMONY WHEN ADDRESS THEJEWS:</span></b></p><p ="ms&#111;normal"="" style="margin-left:38.2pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Lucida Calligraphy&quot;;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;mso-bidi-font-family:Arial;color:red;mso-bidi-:EN-US">“Ye men ofIsrael, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, “<b>a man approve of God”</b>among you by miracles and wonders and sign, <b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal">which God did by him</b> in the midst of you, <u>as you your self alsoknow</u>” (</span><span style="color:red"><a href="http://www.studylight.org/isb/bible.cgi?query=ac+2%3A22&amp;secti&#111;n=0&amp;it=kjv&amp;oq=ac%202%3A22&amp;ot=bhs&amp;nt=na&amp;new=1&amp;nb=ac&amp;ng=2&amp;ncc=2" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Lucida Calligraphy&quot;;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;mso-bidi-font-family:Arial;color:red;mso-bidi-:EN-US">Acts2:22</span></a></span><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:&quot;Lucida Calligraphy&quot;;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;mso-bidi-font-family:Arial;color:red;mso-bidi-:EN-US">)</span></p><p ="ms&#111;normal"="" style="text-indent:18.0pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">And Jesus (S) said:<i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"> </i></span></p><p ="ms&#111;normal"="" style="margin-left:38.2pt"><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">"I tell you the truth, no<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal">servant</b> is greater than his master,nor is a <b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal">messenger</b> greater than theone who <u>sent him</u>."</span></i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US"> <i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal">(</i></span><a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2013:16&amp;versi&#111;n=9" target="_blank"><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">John13:16</span></i></a><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">)</span></i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US"> <br style="mso-special-character:line-break"></span></p><p ="ms&#111;normal"="" style="margin-left:38.2pt"><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">Jesus answered them and said,“My doctrine is not Mine, but His who <u>sent Me</u>.” (</span></i><a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%207:16&amp;versi&#111;n=9" target="_blank"><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">John7:16</span></i></a><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">)</span></i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US"><br style="mso-special-character:line-break"></span></p><p ="ms&#111;normal"="" style="text-indent:18.0pt"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">Which Church teaches thatJesus (S) is a man approve of God? Islam!!</span></b></p><p ="ms&#111;normal"="" style="text-indent:18.0pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">And he (S) said:<i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"> </i></span></p><p ="ms&#111;normal"="" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">“And the gate of hell shallnot prevail against it.”</span></i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US"><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal">(</i></span><a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew%2016:18&amp;versi&#111;n=9" target="_blank"><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">Matt.16:18</span></i></a><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">)</span></i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US"></span></p><p ="ms&#111;normal"="" style="text-indent:18.0pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">In Qur’an it stated in 74:31<i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"> “AndWe have set non but angels as guardian of the fire</i>…”<b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal"><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"> </i></b></span></p><p ="ms&#111;normal"="" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;text-indent:18.0pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US"><span style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp;</span>Jesus (S) in Islam, he said: </span></p><p ="ms&#111;normal"="" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:36.0pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">“<i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal">Lo! I come unto you with a sign from your Lord. Lo! I fashion for youout of clay the likeness of a bird, and I breathe into it and it is a bird <b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal">by Allah's leave</b>. I heal him who wasborn blind, and the leper, and I raise the dead, <b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal">by Allah's leave</b>. And I announce to you what you eat and what youstore up in your houses. Lo! herein verily is a portent for you if you are tobe believers. <br>And (I come) confirming that which was before me of the Torah, and to makelawful some of that which was forbidden unto you. I come unto you with a signfrom your Lord, so keep your duty to Allah and obey me. Lo! <b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal">Allah is my Lord and your Lord, so worshipHim. That is a straight path.</b></i> Qur'an 3: 49-51</span></p><p ="ms&#111;normal"="" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;text-indent:18.0pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">Jesus (S) conforms: </span></p><p ="ms&#111;normal"="" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:36.0pt"><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">“And Jesus answered him, The first of allthe commandments is, Hear, O Israel; <b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal">TheLord our God is one Lord:</b> <b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal">V.30</b>And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul,and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: <b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal">this is the first commandment.”</b></span></i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Calibri;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US"> </span><a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%2012:29-30&amp;versi&#111;n=9" target="_blank"><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">Mark12:29-30</span></i></a><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US"></span></i></p><p ="ms&#111;normal"="" style="margin-left:38.2pt"><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">“For <b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal">I have not spoken on My own authority</b>; but the Father who <font color="#FF0000"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal"><u>sent Me</u></b></font><u> gave Me a command,what I should say and what I should speak.</u>” </span></i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US"><span style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp;</span><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal">(</i></span><a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john%2012:49&amp;versi&#111;n=9" target="_blank"><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">John12:49</span></i></a><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">)</span></i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US"></span></p><p ="ms&#111;normal"="" style="margin-left:38.2pt"><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">“I can of Myself do nothing. <b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal">As I hear, I judge</b>; and My judgment isrighteous, because <b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal">I do not seek My ownwill but the will of the Father who <font color="#FF0000"><u>sent Me</u></font></b>.” (John.5:30)</span></i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US"> <br style="mso-special-character:line-break"></span></p><p ="ms&#111;normal"="" style="text-indent:18.0pt"><font color="#FF0000"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal"><u><span style="font-size: 11pt; font-family: Arial;">And who is Jesus (S) Father?</span></u></b></font><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US"> Jesus (S) said: </span></p><p ="ms&#111;normal"="" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">“…Touch me not, for I am notyet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascendunto <font color="#FF0000"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal">my Father</b>, and <b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal">your Father</b>; and <b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal">my God</b>, and <b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal">your God.”</b> </font>(</span></i><a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2020:16-17%20&amp;versi&#111;n=9" target="_blank"><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">John20:16-17</span></i></a><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US"> AKJV)</span></i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US"> </span></p><p ="ms&#111;normal"="" style="text-indent:18.0pt"><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">According to him, his Fatheris “<u>OUR GOD</u> and <u>HIS GOD;</u> He has a GOD, He said: “MY GOD AND YOURGOD.” </span></b></p><p ="ms&#111;normal"=""><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US"><span style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span></span></i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">And the following verse hedeclared that he is not good <u>only God is good</u>, in reply to someone he(S) said to him:</span></p><p ="ms&#111;normal"="" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><i style="mso-bidi-font-style:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">"Why do you call me good?No one is good but <b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal"><u>God alone."</u></b></span></i><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US"> <b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal">(</b></span><a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Mark%2010:18&amp;versi&#111;n=9" target="_blank"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">Mark 10:18</span></a><b style="mso-bidi-font-weight:normal"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US">)</span></b><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US"> <br></span></p><p ="ms&#111;normal"="" style="margin-left:36.0pt"><span style="font-size:11.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;MS Mincho&quot;;color:black;mso-bidi-:EN-US"><br style="mso-special-character:line-break"><br style="mso-special-character:line-break"></span></p><p ="ms&#111;normal"="" style="mso-margin-top-alt:auto;margin-right:-59.9pt;mso-margin-bottom-alt:auto;margin-left:-2.0cm"><span style="font-size:10.0pt;font-family:Arial;mso-bidi-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;">Br.zainoBR</span></p><span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by truthnowcome - 03 February 2013 at 12:10am</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Sat, 02 Feb 2013 23:31:08 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :  http://www.youtube.com/watch...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=69566">Caringheart</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 02 February 2013 at 5:12pm<br /><br />http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jz8v5hS-jYE<br><br>http://www.notjustnotes.ws/buddhasprophecy.htm<br><br>&nbsp;there is a <b>prophecy from approximately 500 B.C. of the "Holy One" </b>who would come. One who would lead the people away from the old way, and introduce a new way.<br><br><b>"The Holy one who will keep the world in the future will be like this: In the palm of his hands and in the flat of his feet will be the design of a disk, in his side will be a stab wound; and his forehead will have many marks like scars."</b><br><br><br>http://www.jubilee-resources.com/articles/buddha-prophesied-jesus<br>the Buddha stated in writings, that he, the Buddha, was not God, and <b>you would know God&nbsp; had come among us when you saw a man walking on water.<br><br></b>Seek Truth<b><br></b><span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by Caringheart - 03 February 2013 at 10:20am</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Sat, 02 Feb 2013 17:12:52 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL : Abu Loren,Assalamualaikum wa...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=173680#173680</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=8">Nausheen</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 02 February 2013 at 5:05pm<br /><br />Abu Loren,<br />Assalamualaikum wa rahamtullah wa barkatuhu,<br /><br />I just posted a vedio in the Forum Prophet-Muhammad 'The Strength of Beauty and the beauty of strength'. It is 31+minutes long. Please take a look and humor me.<br /><br />Jazak Allahu khair.]]>
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   <pubDate>Sat, 02 Feb 2013 17:05:34 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :  Originally posted by Abu Loren Originally...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=173668#173668</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=59438">honeto</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 02 February 2013 at 2:00pm<br /><br /> <div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Abu Loren</strong></em><br /><br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br /><div></div>So for how long was God the Living Dead?<br /></div><br /><div> </div><div>Oooooh I can answer this one. Apparently Jesus (Alayhi Salaam) was in the grave or sepulchre for 3 days. So I would imagine the father and his spirit were looking after things without the son. Then I would guess that the 3 would 'meld' into 1 when Jesus (Alayhi Salaam) ascended.</div><div> </div><div>I love Christianity...it's fun.</div></div> <br /><br />Salam,<br />I know those who preach Christianity here and else has made it look like a funny joke. We can laugh at them, but we do not make fun of anyone's religion!!<br />Hasan<span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by honeto - 02 February 2013 at 2:00pm</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Sat, 02 Feb 2013 14:00:07 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :  Originally posted by EmpiricistI...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=173667#173667</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=59438">honeto</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 02 February 2013 at 1:56pm<br /><br /> <div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Empiricist</strong></em><br /><br />I think God got it right with Jesus.  Study the new testament and you will see for yourself.  <br /><div></div>The Quran evolved over many years.  Many people had inputs.  Muhammed said many things and there was a lot of confusion and conflicts as to this.  There were over 50 versions at one time. There are still 4 today.  Some were forced to be quiet and not contradict the "official" versions.  There is no way that the Quran today was not modified.  See the book The Quran Dilemma.  It is well documented.  Those of you who blindly say the Quran has never been modified are incorrect.  And Muhammed did not write it - he said many things, but his actions do not portray a holy prophet.  He contradicts Jesus.  They cannot both be right.  Jesus came first and makes much more sense.  The Quran makes little sense and is very poorly written and disjointed.  The only reason so many people believe it is because they are threatened with death if they do not, and are brainwashed as children.  If they were freely allowed to study the bible, they would most likely be Christians.  Christians do not threaten to kill you if you don't become a Christian, and do not say that God will send torture if you don't become one, yet say that God is loving.  A loving God is loving to everyone and does not torture them, burn them, etc.   God will give MUSLIMS a chance to know Jesus too.  This is why I am here.  I am a messenger too, just like you say Muhammed was.  I tell you from God that you do not kill people because they do not believe your Quran.  It is every way as wrong as you say the Bible is.  Satan used the same tactics as Muslims with his Pharasees- legalists.  Satan tested Jesus exactly as Muslims do.   Wish Jesus could answer you but he answers the Pharisees.  See that in the bible.  The book of John is to help you believe in Jesus.  Also Jesus fulfilled old testament prophesies.  Jesus is even coded into the great pyramid of Giza, believe it or not. His lifespen, birthdate, and the Jews as well.  Quite amazing actually.</div> <br /><br />Empiricist,<br />I welcome you to the forum. Seems you are new to the forum and new to Islam. Please read about Islam and the Quran before you comment on them. <br />Hasan]]>
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   <pubDate>Sat, 02 Feb 2013 13:56:23 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :   Jesus taught us how to pray,...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=173663#173663</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71676">Webber</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 02 February 2013 at 9:07am<br /><br /><div>Jesus taught us how to pray, and what to say in Matthew 6.</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div><span id="en-KJV-23292" ="text Matt-6-9"><sup ="versenum"><font size="2">9 </font></sup>After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.</span></div><div><div ="passage versi&#111;n-KJV result-text-style-normal text- "> <p><span id="en-KJV-23293" ="text Matt-6-10"><sup ="versenum"><font size="2">10 </font></sup>Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.</span></p> <p><span id="en-KJV-23294" ="text Matt-6-11"><sup ="versenum"><font size="2">11 </font></sup>Give us this day our daily bread.</span></p> <p><span id="en-KJV-23295" ="text Matt-6-12"><sup ="versenum"><font size="2">12 </font></sup>And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.</span></p> <p><span id="en-KJV-23296" ="text Matt-6-13"><sup ="versenum"><font size="2">13 </font></sup>And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.</p><div></div>A couple things to note though.<div></div><div></div>Jesus said "our Father", not My Father, which means He wasn't talking to all the fathers in the multitude, but to the creator of all. Somewhere, while creating everything you're likely to pick up some form of a paternal title. That's a gimme.<div></div><div>Note also Jesus said "in heaven", as He did almost every time He spoke of the "Father". He's not down on earth making babies. </div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>I think you said it best...</div><div><div class="BBquote">The term "father" is not included in the 99 attributes of Allah (azza wa jall) for a reason. He (subhanaho wa ta'ala) didn't want that to be part of the final  message because it leads to confusion.</div></div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>subhanaho wa ta'ala &lt;---- what does this mean?</div><div></div></span></div></div>]]>
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   <pubDate>Sat, 02 Feb 2013 09:07:55 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :                  Originally...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=173660#173660</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71774">Rational</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 02 February 2013 at 8:32am<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />I understand what you are saying. Do you call Allah your "father"? Did Muhammad do this? Is God called "the Father" in your mosque?</div><br>No we don't. God is not a father or a mother or a grandfather whether in a literal or in a symbolic sense. He is Allah, other than whom there is no deity. The term "father" is not included in the 99 attributes of Allah (azza wa jall) for a reason. He (subhanaho wa ta'ala) didn't want that to be part of the final message because it leads to confusion. Just like how you are confused now. Allah has no children, sons or daughters. Jesus was not the son of Allah. You are not a child or a son of Allah. If Jesus was the son of Allah and we are Allah's children, then surley that would mean that you, me and Jesus are brothers and are all Son's of God?<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br /><u>Not using these exact words.</u> He has however said things about Himself that would be only true of God.</div><br>"<i><span id="en-NIV-26512"><span>I and the Father are one</span></span></i>"<br>"<i><span id="en-NIV-26678"><span>Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father</span></span></i>"<br><br>Again, you're basing your claim on verses that do not say what you are claiming. <u>Those verses do not state what you are claiming</u>. You're giving them an interpretation that suits your personal views, because those verses are vague, and thier meaning can be interchanged. They can be given an interpretation that refutes your claim, which actually makes alot more sense. Watch this video to find out. It's funny because he even shows that your interpretation implies that you have 14 persons in your god, not 3.<br><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2IoyrY5OycY" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2IoyrY5OycY</a><br><br>Indeed TG you've been brainwashed. Otherwise you wouldn't believe in a "Living Dead" god. <br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />Do you believe Allah is better than Satan?</div><br>Obviously I do. Do you?<br>&nbsp;<br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />There are Muslims who use the Quran to refute the belief held by most other Muslims that the hadiths are Muhammad's sayings and that one needs to follow them.</div><br>Let's stick to the Quran and the Bible. Muslims don't dispute anything in the Quran as the Christians dispute over matters in the Bible. Christians are disputing on <u>who is God</u> in the Bible. Fact.<br>&nbsp;<br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />I do not ignore anything in the Bible. I have addressed those passages you pasted on here and have shown you they do not state that Jesus is not God.</div><br>Then please refute what the presenter claimed in this video:<br><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2IoyrY5OycY" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2IoyrY5OycY</a><br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />So as long as you worship only God, is it ok to believe believe He isn't better than Satan?</div><br>What do you think?<br>&nbsp;<br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />That's nice, but I don't associate anyone with God. <u>God is God</u>.</div><br>TG, that's not what you've been saying before. For you, God is not God. For you, God is (<u>God</u> the father + <u>God</u> the son + <u>God</u> the holy spirit). You have <u>THREE</u> images in your mind. An image of an old and wise looking father sitting on a throne, an image of a young handsome looking son, and an image of a spirit. You'll never be able to superimpose them into one image, no matter how hard you try. You will always have three pictures in your head. God is 3 persons remember?<br><br>TG is <u>one</u> person, <br>Abu Loren is <u>one</u> person,<br>Caringheart is <u>one</u> person,&nbsp; <br>Rational is <u>one</u> person, <br><br>God is <u>three</u> persons.<br><br>Not one, two, four, five, or 10,000. <b>THREE</b> PERSONS!<br><br>Don't forget that.<br>&nbsp;<br>Ofcourse you have more than one god. For some reason you believe it's one god made up of three implying you worship only one. You said that <i>God the father</i> <u>allowed</u> <i>God the son</i> to die. That's two gods TG! Did you see that? Problem is you're stubborn because you choose to ignore reality. You're acting like a zombie because you follow concepts that don't make sense. You struggle to explain things but you don't care you just carry on walking. You make claims like <i>"God was alive and dead at the same time"</i> and you're proud of it. It's much more plausible to claim that Christians are <u>alive and dead at the same time</u>. Walking zombies. Are you offended? You shouldn't be because you made this claim about God.<br><br>By the way, what do you call God when you pray? father, Jesus or holy spirit?<br><br>&#1608;&#1575;&#1604;&#1587;&#1604;&#1575;&#1605; &#1593;&#1604;&#1610;&#1603;&#1605; &#1608;&#1585;&#1581;&#1605;&#1577; &#1575;&#1604;&#1604;&#1607; &#1608;&#1576;&#1585;&#1603;&#1575;&#1578;&#1607;<br><span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by Rational - 02 February 2013 at 12:09pm</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Sat, 02 Feb 2013 08:32:47 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL : Interesting how Muslims and Jews...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=173650#173650</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=69517">Empiricist</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 02 February 2013 at 6:19am<br /><br />Interesting how Muslims and Jews have a requirement that Jesus must say certain things to be accepted, such as "I am God.&nbsp; Worship Me".&nbsp;&nbsp; Yet Jesus performed acts that people could see that only God could do.&nbsp; This was so people would see that he is God.&nbsp; There was a purpose for this- anyone can say "I am God- Worship Me".&nbsp;&nbsp; The Pharisees did not like Jesus either because their hundreds of laws they created were not acknowledged by Jesus.<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>Also interesting that Muslims think their Quran was not modified.&nbsp; This is not true.&nbsp; There were over 50 versions with much disagreement what Muhammed said.&nbsp; But how would any Muslim know since they are forbidden to question anthing about the Quran?&nbsp; Well some have- and very carefully.&nbsp; See "The Quran Dilemma".&nbsp; </DIV><DIV>In short, the Quran that is circulated today with readings of Hafs and Warsh have been revised repeatedly over three centuries.&nbsp; Fortunately the Sana manuscript was discovered in 1972, during the restoration of an ancient mosque.&nbsp; This manuscript contains unknown readings.&nbsp; It is the oldest Quranic manuscript currently available.&nbsp; The German Orientalist, G. Puin, conducted research on the manuscript and found that&nbsp;significant changes were made to the Quran.&nbsp; This tells us that the present Quran is not Muhammed's Quran.&nbsp; As a result of these serious discoveries, Yemeni authorities banned Puin from further access to these manuscripts.</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>Much of what Muhammed said was not written down, and what was written was on primitive materials.&nbsp;&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>Uthman worked to revise&nbsp;the Quran organized by the first compilation committee and to destroy other versions.</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>The book&nbsp;is well researched and had all references.&nbsp;&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>So one cannot say that the Quran is unchanged and&nbsp;the direct message from God.&nbsp; It is clearly written by man and has undergone several revisions.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</DIV>]]>
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   <pubDate>Sat, 02 Feb 2013 06:19:02 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :   Originally posted by RationalSo...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=173625#173625</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=70404">Abu Loren</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 01 February 2013 at 9:16am<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br /><div></div><br>So for how long was God the Living Dead?<br></div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>Oooooh I can answer this one. Apparently Jesus (Alayhi Salaam) was in the grave or sepulchre for 3 days. So I would imagine the father and his spirit were looking after things without the son. Then I would guess that the 3 would 'meld' into 1 when Jesus (Alayhi Salaam) ascended.</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>I love Christianity...it's fun.</div>]]>
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   <pubDate>Fri, 01 Feb 2013 09:16:18 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :   Originally posted by Ratio...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=173623#173623</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71711">TG12345</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 01 February 2013 at 8:48am<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br />&#1575;&#1604;&#1587;&#1604;&#1575;&#1605; &#1593;&#1604;&#1610;&#1603;&#1605; &#1608;&#1585;&#1581;&#1605;&#1577; &#1575;&#1604;&#1604;&#1607; &#1608;&#1576;&#1585;&#1603;&#1575;&#1578;&#1607;<br></div><br>Peace to you as well.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />Yes, you are correct. One God exists as three persons. The Son was volunarily making Himself inferior to the Father. God was voluntarily making Himself inferior to God.</div><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br />Thanks.</div><br>Afwan. You are welcome.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />God the Son while He was on earth was not able to act without God the Father.</div><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br />Ok.</div><br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />Do Muslims believe Jesus called God "Father"? Do you call Allah your "Father"? Was Jesus His Son? Are you one of His sons?</div><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br />No. You misunderstood. It's common for people to call their seniors "father" out of respect. When I read about Jesus saying "father", i see it as him saying this out of respect and not the literal meaning.&nbsp;</div><br>I understand what you are saying. Do you call Allah your "father"? Did Muhammad do this? Is God called "the Father" in your mosque?<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />Yes. He is referring to the Father, who along with Him and the Holy Spirit is one God.</div><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br />Ok thanks.</div><br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />Yes. He knew the Father would forsake Him and allow Him to die.</div><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br />Ok.</div><br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />It does, and you yourself have admitted this later in your response. I will show you where.</div><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br />I admit that Allah is God and Jesus is His messenger.<br></div><br>OK, thanks.<br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />None of these passages refute that Jesus is God.</div><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br />Ok thanks.</div><br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />Nowhere in the Bible did Jesus say "I am <b>not</b> God" or "do <b>not</b> worship me". Nowhere in the Bible is it written "Jesus is not God" or "Jesus is not to be worshiped".</div><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br />Ok.</div><br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />You demanded me to show you a passage from the Bible where Jesus said "I am God, worship me". I have shown you passages where He said things that He would only say if He claimed to be God... and you concurred on this, as I will show later on.</div><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br />"I am God, worship me", indeed Jesus never said it.<br></div><br>Not using these exact words. He has however said things about Himself that would be only true of God.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />If you challenged me to show you a passage where Jesus said "I am God, worship me", I challenge you to show me a passage where Jesus said "I am not God, do not worship me". You are unable to show such a passage.</div><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br />That's ok you don't need to challenge me.</div><br>You challenged me, so I don't see why I shouldn't pose a challenge to you. <img src="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/smileys/smiley1.gif" border="0" align="absmiddle" alt="Smile" /><br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />There is also no evidence in the Bible tor refute the claim that Jesus is God.</div><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br />Ok then. Let's brush all those verses under the carpet where they belong.<br><font color="#666666"><strike>(Mark 10:18, John 17:3, John 20:17, John 14:28, John 10:29, John 5:30, Revelation 3:12, Matthew 27:46, Matthew 12:28, luke 11:20, Matthew 6:9-13, Matthew 26:39, John 7:16, John 14:24, John 12:49, John 4:34, John 6:38, Luke 22:42, John 8:42, Mark 13:32, Matthew 24:36, John 7:16)</strike><br></font></div><br>No one is advocating brushing them under the carpet (except you). They are in the Bible, and have been inspired by God like everything else that is in it. They simply do not say what you claim they are saying ie that Jesus is not God.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />Then show me a passage from the Quran where it says "God is better than Satan" or Allah said "I am better than Satan", as you demanded I show you a passage from the Bible where Jesus said "I am God, worship me".</div><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br />I don't think you understood. Why should I if no one is denying this? There is no evidence to refute this. So no need to bother.</div><br>Do you believe Allah is better than Satan?<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br />Unlike your claim, where even Christians are disagreeing with you that Jesus is God, and those Christians are using the bible against you, not the Quran. I've seen two Christians on this forum alone, using the bible to refute that Jesus is God. There is evidence in the bible but you continue ignoring it.</div><br>There are Muslims who use the Quran to refute the belief held by most other Muslims that the hadiths are Muhammad's sayings and that one needs to follow them.<br><br>http://www.quranic.org/<br><br>I do not ignore anything in the Bible. I have addressed those passages you pasted on here and have shown you they do not state that Jesus is not God.&nbsp; <br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />Both are extremely clear from reading and understanding the Bible and Quran respectively.</div><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br />You failed to see the difference.</div><br>No, it is you who are misinterpreting the Bible and fall into the same mistakes that many Islamophobes make, but about Christianity. No offence intended.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />Using your logic, that God would never choose to let people come to a conclusion about Him themselves and there is no ayah that states He is better than Satan, then are you saying people will be allowed to excuse themselves on the Day of Judgement by saying they didn't know He is better than Iblis?</div><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br />God tells muslims that He is God and we should worship Him and only Him. This is the main part of the message. He then leaves the rest to us. If we obey, then on that day we're ok. If we disobey, then on that day we're not ok, because God told us the message. But for you, you're excused because Jesus never told you he is God and you should worship him. So there is no requirement in worshiping him.</div><br>So as long as you worship only God, is it ok to believe believe He isn't better than Satan?<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />You said that Muhammad did not say he shared glory with God before the world existed, that he did not claim he will judge the nations, that those who have seen him have seen God and that he and God are one, because, in your words, he is a messenger <b>and not God</b>.<br><br>If he was God, he surely would have said he will judge the world. He surely would have said that those who have seen him have seen Allah, and that he and Allah are one.<br><br>Yet he did not, because these are things only God would say.<br><br>These are things that Jesus said in the Gospels.<br><br>You said that the Bible does not say Jesus is God:<br><br>"Because most Christians insist that Jesus is God and to be worshiped <b>despite the fact that the bible doesn't say it. "<br><br></b>However, at the same time, you acknowledge that the reason that Muhammad in the Quran and hadiths did not say the things that Jesus said in the Bible was<b><u> because he is not God</u></b>.<br><br>You have just admitted that the Bible says that Jesus is God, because He said things that a messenger would not say since a messenger is not God.</div><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br />As the saying goes "desperate times call for desperate measures".<br><br>This doesn't prove that Jesus is God. That might be your criteria by relying on vague statements that allude to him being God, but not me, that doesn't satisfy me. All I said was "because he is a messenger and not God". Does this mean that if the messenger (pbuh) said these things, I would automatically believe him to be God? No. People like you might, but not me. I'm not as gullible as you are. It might be suggesting that he is God, doesn't mean I should believe that he is. He never said he was. My criteria is this, He identifies Himself as God and instructs us to worship Him. The Quran fulfils this criteria and more. You're not required to worship Jesus because he never instructed you to worship him. <br><br>And you forget what I said after:<br><i>"If the bible states that Jesus said he will "judge the nations and decide who goes to heaven and hell", <b>then I wouldn't believe those words to be his.</b>"</i><br><br>Because Jesus (alaihi as-salam) wouldn't say this. That's why I don't trust the bible. It's plagued with misinformation and contradiction.</div><br>One of your assertions was that the Bible doesn't say Jesus is God. I showed you some things He said in it and you said Muhammad wouldn't say them because he was only a messenger, not God.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br />If Jesus was God, he would have said it directly and people would have made a note of it. Jesus would have instructed you to worship him. But it's not there. That's why I showed you the verses in the Quran where God makes it clear that He is God and to worship Him. Jesus did not do this. Did he? Jesus never told you to worship him. Did he? What part of that don't you understand? Doesn't this make you suspicious? No? Seriously, you don't' find it odd? Your prepared to devote your entire life to worshiping Jesus without him telling you to?</div><br>I am prepared to devote my life to worshiping God- the Father, Son and Holy Spirit- because only He is worth following and worshiping. <br><br>Jesus is recorded in the Bible as saying some things that only God would say... and you yourself noticed this by saying Muhammad would not say these things because he was not God.<br><br>Regardless of whether you believe the Bible to be trustworthy or not, it does say Jesus is God.<br><br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br />Every time you pray to Jesus, remember that you're doing this even though he didn't tell you to. Every time you call his name, remember that he never told you he is God. You can even say it in your prayer<i>,<br><br>"O Jesus, you are God, even though you didn't say it. O Jesus, I worship you, even though you didn't tell me to"</i>. <br><br>You can say it every night and see how you feel.</div><br>Jesus did say He is God, and He allowed others to worship Him.<br><br>Every time you pray to Allah, then you can say<br><br><i>"O Allah, I believe you are better than Satan even though you never said such a thing"<br></i><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br />You've been warned:<br><br><font color="#0066CC"><i>"We will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve for what they have associated with Allah of which He had not sent down &#091;any&#093; authority. And their refuge will be the Fire, and wretched is the residence of the wrongdoers."</i></font> (151)<br><br><i><font color="#0066CC">"Indeed, Allah does not forgive association with Him, but He forgives what is less than that for whom He wills. And he who associates others with Allah has certainly fabricated a tremendous sin."</font></i> (48)<br><font color="#0066CC"><i><br>"Indeed, Allah does not forgive association with Him, but He forgives what is less than that for whom He wills. And he who associates others with Allah has certainly gone far astray."</i></font> (116)<br><br><font color="#0066CC"><i>"Indeed, he who associates others with Allah - Allah has forbidden him Paradise, and his refuge is the Fire. And there are not for the wrongdoers any helpers."</i></font> (72)<br><br></div><br>That's nice, but I don't associate anyone with God. God is God.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />Yet a misunderstanding of the royal "We" that God uses in the Quran could lead one to mistakenly believe that Muslims believe there are two Gods. Similarly, a misunderstanding of the nature of God as the Father, Son and Holy Spirit that the Bible teaches could lead someone to mistakenly believe that God has MPD or that Christians believe in more than one God.</div><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br />It's not the same. Stop confusing yourself.&nbsp;</div><br>Deny it all you want, but it is the same.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br /><br>&#1608;&#1575;&#1604;&#1587;&#1604;&#1575;&#1605; &#1593;&#1604;&#1610;&#1603;&#1605; &#1608;&#1585;&#1581;&#1605;&#1577; &#1575;&#1604;&#1604;&#1607; &#1608;&#1576;&#1585;&#1603;&#1575;&#1578;&#1607;<br><br></div><br><br>To you also. Allah Akhbar.<br>]]>
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   <pubDate>Fri, 01 Feb 2013 08:48:14 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :   Originally posted by TG12345  Originally...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=173596#173596</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71774">Rational</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 31 January 2013 at 6:55pm<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />Salaam Alaikum, Rational.<br><br>God both died as the Son and stayed alive as the Father and Holy Spirit.<br></div><br>But did the <u>One God</u> die?<br></div><br><br>He simultaneously died and stayed alive at the same time. This is something us human beings are incapable of doing, much less beginning to understand. Fortunately, God is not one of us.<br></div><br>God was alive and dead at the same time?<br></div><br><br>Na'am. (Yes)<br></div><br>So for how long was God the Living Dead?<br>]]>
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   <pubDate>Thu, 31 Jan 2013 18:55:49 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :                ...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71774">Rational</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 31 January 2013 at 6:50pm<br /><br />&#1575;&#1604;&#1587;&#1604;&#1575;&#1605; &#1593;&#1604;&#1610;&#1603;&#1605; &#1608;&#1585;&#1581;&#1605;&#1577; &#1575;&#1604;&#1604;&#1607; &#1608;&#1576;&#1585;&#1603;&#1575;&#1578;&#1607;<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />Yes, you are correct. One God exists as three persons. The Son was volunarily making Himself inferior to the Father. God was voluntarily making Himself inferior to God.</div><br>Thanks.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />God the Son while He was on earth was not able to act without God the Father.</div><br>Ok.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />Do Muslims believe Jesus called God "Father"? Do you call Allah your "Father"? Was Jesus His Son? Are you one of His sons?</div><br>No. You misunderstood. It's common for people to call their seniors "father" out of respect. When I read about Jesus saying "father", i see it as him saying this out of respect and not the literal meaning. <br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />Yes. He is referring to the Father, who along with Him and the Holy Spirit is one God.</div><br>Ok thanks.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />Yes. He knew the Father would forsake Him and allow Him to die.</div><br>Ok.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />It does, and you yourself have admitted this later in your response. I will show you where.</div><br>I admit that Allah is God and Jesus is His messenger.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />None of these passages refute that Jesus is God.</div><br>Ok thanks.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />Nowhere in the Bible did Jesus say "I am <b>not</b> God" or "do <b>not</b> worship me". Nowhere in the Bible is it written "Jesus is not God" or "Jesus is not to be worshiped".</div><br>Ok.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />You demanded me to show you a passage from the Bible where Jesus said "I am God, worship me". I have shown you passages where He said things that He would only say if He claimed to be God... and you concurred on this, as I will show later on.</div><br>"I am God, worship me", indeed Jesus never said it.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />If you challenged me to show you a passage where Jesus said "I am God, worship me", I challenge you to show me a passage where Jesus said "I am not God, do not worship me". You are unable to show such a passage.</div><br>That's ok you don't need to challenge me.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />There is also no evidence in the Bible tor refute the claim that Jesus is God.</div><br>Ok then. Let's brush all those verses under the carpet where they belong.<br><font color="#666666"><strike>(Mark 10:18, John 17:3, John 20:17, John 14:28, John 10:29, John 5:30, Revelation 3:12, Matthew 27:46, Matthew 12:28, luke 11:20, Matthew 6:9-13, Matthew 26:39, John 7:16, John 14:24, John 12:49, John 4:34, John 6:38, Luke 22:42, John 8:42, Mark 13:32, Matthew 24:36, John 7:16)</strike><br></font><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />Then show me a passage from the Quran where it says "God is better than Satan" or Allah said "I am better than Satan", as you demanded I show you a passage from the Bible where Jesus said "I am God, worship me".</div><br>I don't think you understood. Why should I if no one is denying this? There is no evidence to refute this. So no need to bother. Unlike your claim, where even Christians are disagreeing with you that Jesus is God, and those Christians are using the bible against you, not the Quran. I've seen two Christians on this forum alone, using the bible to refute that Jesus is God. There is evidence in the bible but you continue ignoring it.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />Both are extremely clear from reading and understanding the Bible and Quran respectively.</div><br>You failed to see the difference.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />Using your logic, that God would never choose to let people come to a conclusion about Him themselves and there is no ayah that states He is better than Satan, then are you saying people will be allowed to excuse themselves on the Day of Judgement by saying they didn't know He is better than Iblis?</div><br>God tells muslims that He is God and we should worship Him and only Him. This is the main part of the message. He then leaves the rest to us. If we obey, then on that day we're ok. If we disobey, then on that day we're not ok, because God told us the message. But for you, you're excused because Jesus never told you he is God and you should worship him. So there is no requirement in worshiping him.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />You said that Muhammad did not say he shared glory with God before the world existed, that he did not claim he will judge the nations, that those who have seen him have seen God and that he and God are one, because, in your words, he is a messenger <b>and not God</b>.<br><br>If he was God, he surely would have said he will judge the world. He surely would have said that those who have seen him have seen Allah, and that he and Allah are one.<br><br>Yet he did not, because these are things only God would say.<br><br>These are things that Jesus said in the Gospels.<br><br>You said that the Bible does not say Jesus is God:<br><br>"Because most Christians insist that Jesus is God and to be worshiped <b>despite the fact that the bible doesn't say it. "<br><br></b>However, at the same time, you acknowledge that the reason that Muhammad in the Quran and hadiths did not say the things that Jesus said in the Bible was<b><u> because he is not God</u></b>.<br><br>You have just admitted that the Bible says that Jesus is God, because He said things that a messenger would not say since a messenger is not God.</div><br>As the saying goes "desperate times call for desperate measures".<br><br>This doesn't prove that Jesus is God. That might be your criteria by relying on vague statements that allude to him being God, but not me, that doesn't satisfy me. All I said was "because he is a messenger and not God". Does this mean that if the messenger (pbuh) said these things, I would automatically believe him to be God? No. People like you might, but not me. I'm not as gullible as you are. It might be suggesting that he is God, doesn't mean I should believe that he is. He never said he was. My criteria is this, He identifies Himself as God and instructs us to worship Him. The Quran fulfils this criteria and more. You're not required to worship Jesus because he never instructed you to worship him. <br><br>And you forget what I said after:<br><i>"If the bible states that Jesus said he will "judge the nations and decide who goes to heaven and hell", <b>then I wouldn't believe those words to be his.</b>"</i><br><br>Because Jesus (alaihi as-salam) wouldn't say this. That's why I don't trust the bible. It's plagued with misinformation and contradiction. <br><br>If Jesus was God, he would have said it directly and people would have made a note of it. Jesus would have instructed you to worship him. But it's not there. That's why I showed you the verses in the Quran where God makes it clear that He is God and to worship Him. Jesus did not do this. Did he? Jesus never told you to worship him. Did he? What part of that don't you understand? Doesn't this make you suspicious? No? Seriously, you don't' find it odd? Your prepared to devote your entire life to worshiping Jesus without him telling you to? <br><br>Every time you pray to Jesus, remember that you're doing this even though he didn't tell you to. Every time you call his name, remember that he never told you he is God. You can even say it in your prayer<i>,<br><br>"O Jesus, you are God, even though you didn't say it. O Jesus, I worship you, even though you didn't tell me to"</i>. <br><br>You can say it every night and see how you feel.<br><br>You've been warned:<br><br><font color="#0066CC"><i>"We will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve for what they have associated with Allah of which He had not sent down &#091;any&#093; authority. And their refuge will be the Fire, and wretched is the residence of the wrongdoers."</i></font> (151)<br><br><i><font color="#0066CC">"Indeed, Allah does not forgive association with Him, but He forgives what is less than that for whom He wills. And he who associates others with Allah has certainly fabricated a tremendous sin."</font></i> (48)<br><font color="#0066CC"><i><br>"Indeed, Allah does not forgive association with Him, but He forgives what is less than that for whom He wills. And he who associates others with Allah has certainly gone far astray."</i></font> (116)<br><br><font color="#0066CC"><i>"Indeed, he who associates others with Allah - Allah has forbidden him Paradise, and his refuge is the Fire. And there are not for the wrongdoers any helpers."</i></font> (72)<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />Yet a misunderstanding of the royal "We" that God uses in the Quran could lead one to mistakenly believe that Muslims believe there are two Gods. Similarly, a misunderstanding of the nature of God as the Father, Son and Holy Spirit that the Bible teaches could lead someone to mistakenly believe that God has MPD or that Christians believe in more than one God.</div><br>It's not the same. Stop confusing yourself. <br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br /><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000">Why did it take Him 124,000 attempts before He was able to send a mseenger whose message and holy book has not been forgotten or tampered with?<br><br></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000">Why not preserve the first message to begin with, and not allow it to be changed?</font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></div><br>Allah (subhanaho wa ta'ala) can do anything He wishes, 'Be' and it is. I told you previously, if He had wanted to guide everyone from the start, He (subhanaho wa ta'ala) could have done so. I even cited the ayeh where Allah (azza wa jall) says this. This means that He didn't even need a single message to guide us, not even a first message. But our Creator chose to send us the message bit by bit. Why? I attempted to give my take on this previously (pasted below). I'm interested to know your beliefs of what happened.<br><br><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000">Rational<font size="2"> said<font size="2">:</font><br></font><i>"This is a good question. And maybe one of the muslim brothers or sisters can jump in on this. What I can say is this, we know and believe that the divine message from Allah (subhanaho wa ta'ala) was sent to us incrementally, bit by bit, through various prophets, over time, to different people. The message was constantly corrupted and people would repeatedly deviate from the true message sent to them. We know many of these occurrences and the prophets that had to endure them. Some prophets had scriptures and some didn't. But as we know it was a common trend for the message to get corrupted throughout history. And through those events of deviation and corruption, the next message can take that lesson and teach it to the next generation. In other words, those events in history serve as a warning, a lesson and example to learn from. This is the wisdom behind it in my opinion. So now we reach to the final prophet and his message from Allah. Why is God preserving this final message? Because if it was not preserved, it would have the same fate as all the other messages throughout history, it would eventually get corrupted and people would once again deviate, and that would mean complete loss of hope for us until the end of time. The last message had to be preserved by Allah (subhanaho wa ta'ala). And Allah knows best.</i></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font><i>"</i><br><br>&#1608;&#1575;&#1604;&#1587;&#1604;&#1575;&#1605; &#1593;&#1604;&#1610;&#1603;&#1605; &#1608;&#1585;&#1581;&#1605;&#1577; &#1575;&#1604;&#1604;&#1607; &#1608;&#1576;&#1585;&#1603;&#1575;&#1578;&#1607;<br><br><span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by Rational - 01 February 2013 at 2:11pm</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Thu, 31 Jan 2013 18:50:54 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :   Empiricist &amp;amp; TG12345Very...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=173560#173560</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=70404">Abu Loren</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 31 January 2013 at 1:42am<br /><br />Empiricist &amp; TG12345<div>&nbsp;</div><div>Very bold and crusading words from two people who are heading straight for HELL.</div>]]>
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   <pubDate>Thu, 31 Jan 2013 01:42:22 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :   Originally posted by EmpiricistI...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71711">TG12345</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 30 January 2013 at 7:26pm<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Empiricist</strong></em><br /><br />I submit that man cannot begin to comprehend God, that is why he created Jesus, so we could relate to God in human form.&nbsp; Man cannot comprehend that which he cannot see very well- we are trapped in a physical world.&nbsp; This is why the Jews and others worsipped idols.&nbsp; Jews wanted a king.&nbsp; Jews wanted God to come and save them, as a hero.&nbsp; But God did not do that.&nbsp; However some get a taste of God with a "near death experience".&nbsp; They report immense love, white light, etc.&nbsp; This is why Jesus was about love.&nbsp; Muhammed was a man for force, repression, worldly pleasures.&nbsp; Not a "final prophet"- this is impossible.&nbsp; Many have the gift of prophesy.&nbsp; I could say that I am the final prophet but that does not make it true.&nbsp; Any time somebody tells you to not verify what they say and just believe it, is suspect.&nbsp;&nbsp;THis is like&nbsp;a used car salesman.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;The&nbsp;Quran is no contest&nbsp;compared to the Bible.&nbsp;&nbsp;IMO the Quran is&nbsp;clearly a "made up" holy book, to create a religion to control the people.&nbsp; Sorry to offend Muslims but your arguments are feeble.</div><br><br>I believe that the Quran is not God's word and Islam is not His religion.<br><br>But your claim that Muhammad was "a man for force, repression, worldly pleasures" is plain wrong. He spared the lives of many of his enemies, even if he killed others. When he and his family were going hungry, they still helped people who were more poor than they were. He outlawed the killing of infant baby girls. Because of his conviction, he allowed himself to be subjected to persecution and alienation in Mecca when he could have became a prosperous member of his tribe.<br><br>How much do you know about Islam? Have you read the Quran and hadiths?<br><br>If you did, you wouldn't be making such claims about Muhammad.<br><br>Instead of telling Muslims that their arguments are "feeble", I suggest you tell them where and why you disagree with what they believe. Be a witness to the Gospel to them and yes, when there are falsehoods confront them but make sure you know what you are talking about first.<br><br>In Christ.<br><br>TG12345<br>]]>
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   <pubDate>Wed, 30 Jan 2013 19:26:49 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL : I think God got it right with...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=69517">Empiricist</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 30 January 2013 at 7:14pm<br /><br />I think God got it right with Jesus.&nbsp; Study the new testament and you will see for yourself.&nbsp; <DIV></DIV>The Quran evolved over many years.&nbsp; Many people had inputs.&nbsp; Muhammed said many things and there was a lot of confusion and conflicts as to this.&nbsp; There were over 50 versions at one time. There are still 4 today.&nbsp; Some were forced to be quiet and not contradict the "official" versions.&nbsp; There is no way that the Quran today was not modified.&nbsp; See the book The Quran Dilemma.&nbsp; It is well documented.&nbsp; Those of you who blindly say the Quran has never been modified are incorrect.&nbsp; And Muhammed did not write it - he said many things, but his actions do not portray a&nbsp;holy prophet.&nbsp; He contradicts Jesus.&nbsp; They cannot both be right.&nbsp; Jesus came first and makes much more sense.&nbsp;&nbsp;The&nbsp;Quran makes little sense and&nbsp;is very poorly written and disjointed.&nbsp;&nbsp;The only reason so many people believe it is because they are threatened with death&nbsp;if they do not, and are brainwashed as children.&nbsp; If they were freely allowed to study the&nbsp;bible, they would most likely be Christians.&nbsp; Christians do not threaten&nbsp;to kill you if you don't become a&nbsp;Christian, and do not&nbsp;say that God will send torture if you don't become one, yet say that God&nbsp;is loving.&nbsp;&nbsp;A loving God is loving to everyone and does not torture them, burn them, etc.&nbsp;&nbsp; God will give&nbsp;MUSLIMS a chance to know Jesus too.&nbsp; This is why I am here.&nbsp; I&nbsp;am a messenger too,&nbsp;just&nbsp;like you say Muhammed was.&nbsp; I tell you from God that you do not kill people because they do not believe&nbsp;your Quran.&nbsp;&nbsp;It is every way as&nbsp;wrong as you say the Bible is.&nbsp; Satan used the same tactics as Muslims with&nbsp;his Pharasees- legalists.&nbsp; Satan tested Jesus&nbsp;exactly as Muslims do.&nbsp;&nbsp; Wish Jesus could answer you but he answers the Pharisees.&nbsp; See that in the bible.&nbsp; The book of John is to help you believe in Jesus.&nbsp; Also Jesus fulfilled old testament prophesies.&nbsp; Jesus is even coded into the great pyramid of Giza, believe it or not. His lifespen, birthdate, and the Jews as well.&nbsp; Quite amazing actually.]]>
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   <pubDate>Wed, 30 Jan 2013 19:14:20 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL : I submit that man cannot begin...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=173539#173539</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=69517">Empiricist</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 30 January 2013 at 6:49pm<br /><br />I submit that man cannot begin to comprehend God, that is why he created Jesus, so we could relate to God in human form.&nbsp; Man cannot comprehend that which he cannot see very well- we are trapped in a physical world.&nbsp; This is why the Jews and others worsipped idols.&nbsp; Jews wanted a king.&nbsp; Jews wanted God to come and save them, as a hero.&nbsp; But God did not do that.&nbsp; However some get a taste of God with a "near death experience".&nbsp; They report immense love, white light, etc.&nbsp; This is why Jesus was about love.&nbsp; Muhammed was a man for force, repression, worldly pleasures.&nbsp; Not a "final prophet"- this is impossible.&nbsp; Many have the gift of prophesy.&nbsp; I could say that I am the final prophet but that does not make it true.&nbsp; Any time somebody tells you to not verify what they say and just believe it, is suspect.&nbsp;&nbsp;THis is like&nbsp;a used car salesman.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;The&nbsp;Quran is no contest&nbsp;compared to the Bible.&nbsp;&nbsp;IMO the Quran is&nbsp;clearly a "made up" holy book, to create a religion to control the people.&nbsp; Sorry to offend Muslims but your arguments are feeble.]]>
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   <pubDate>Wed, 30 Jan 2013 18:49:20 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :    &amp;#034; In inviting people...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=173529#173529</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=69566">Caringheart</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 30 January 2013 at 4:41pm<br /><br />" In inviting people to goodness and forbidding from the wrong, Muslims will need to join hands with <i>other believers</i> who share a great deal of these values about good and bad and about right and wrong. The conflicts that we witness today are not conflicts between religions, they are conflicts of irreligion. Therefore, those who believe in God and know the right from the wrong - Jews, Christians and Muslims, especially - can join together to build a not a perfect, but an incomparably better world than we live in today: a society of neighbors who are just and fair to each other."<br>Dr. Shahid Athar , Millennium - An Islamic Perspective<br><br><br>Who is my neighbor?<br><font size="1">25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?<br>26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?<br><br>27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.<br><br>28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.<br><br>29 But he, willing to justify himself, said unto Jesus, And who is my neighbour?<br><br>30 And Jesus answering said, A certain man went down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among thieves, which stripped him of his raiment, and wounded him, and departed, leaving him half dead.<br>31 And by chance there came down a certain priest that way: and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.<br>32 And likewise a Levite, when he was at the place, came and looked on him, and passed by on the other side.<br>33 But a certain Samaritan, as he journeyed, came where he was: and when he saw him, he had compassion on him,<br>34 And went to him, and bound up his wounds, pouring in oil and wine, and set him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn, and took care of him.<br>35 And on the morrow when he departed, he took out two pence, and gave them to the host, and said unto him, Take care of him; and whatsoever thou spendest more, when I come again, I will repay thee.<br><br>36 Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves?<br><br>37 And he said, He that shewed mercy on him. Then said Jesus unto him, Go, and do thou likewise.</font><br><span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by Caringheart - 31 January 2013 at 9:25am</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Wed, 30 Jan 2013 16:41:43 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :   Originally posted by Rational    Originally...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=173527#173527</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71711">TG12345</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 30 January 2013 at 4:33pm<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />Salaam Alaikum, Rational.<br><br>God both died as the Son and stayed alive as the Father and Holy Spirit.<br></div><br>But did the <u>One God</u> die?<br></div><br><br>He simultaneously died and stayed alive at the same time. This is something us human beings are incapable of doing, much less beginning to understand. Fortunately, God is not one of us.<br></div><br>God was alive and dead at the same time?<br></div><br><br>Na'am. <br>]]>
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   <pubDate>Wed, 30 Jan 2013 16:33:20 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :   Originally posted by Ratio...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=173526#173526</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71711">TG12345</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 30 January 2013 at 4:32pm<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br />&#1575;&#1604;&#1587;&#1604;&#1575;&#1605; &#1593;&#1604;&#1610;&#1603;&#1605; &#1608;&#1585;&#1581;&#1605;&#1577; &#1575;&#1604;&#1604;&#1607; &#1608;&#1576;&#1585;&#1603;&#1575;&#1578;&#1607;<br></div><br>Peace in Christ.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />Yes. It is also clear and explicit that Jesus made Himself <u>voluntarily</u> inferior to the Father <u>although</u>(?) He was in the form of God.</div><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br />In other words, Jesus (alaihi al-salam) "volunteered" (offered) to be inferior to the father. Volunteering implies <i>two</i> parties, the one <u>offering</u> and the one <u>receiving</u>. But because you have <b>One God</b>, the only sensible deduction would be that God "volunteered" to Himself. <br><br>It's interesting to see the word "although" in your response. In other words, even though Jesus is God, He offered to be inferior to Himself. Otherwise you wouldn't have <b>One God.</b></div><br>Yes, you are correct. One God exists as three persons. The Son was volunarily making Himself inferior to the Father. God was voluntarily making Himself inferior to God.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br />Jesus (alaihi al-salam) said "<font color="#0066CC">I can of mine own self do <b><u>nothing</u></b></font>". You said Jesus was in the form of God, then why would God say he can do nothing?</div><br>God the Son while He was on earth was not able to act without God the Father. <br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br />Jesus (alaihi al-salam) said "<font color="#0066CC">because I seek <b>not mine own will, but the will of the Father</b></font>"<br>Anyone that says not my will but God's will, is a muslim. A muslim means the person who submits the will to almighty God. Jesus (pbuh) was a muslim, a mighty prophet of God.</div><br>Do Muslims believe Jesus called God "Father"? Do you call Allah your "Father"? Was Jesus His Son? Are you one of His sons?<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />Jesus often referred to the Father as His God.</div><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br />You say you have <b>One God</b>. Just to clarify, Is He referring to Himself as His God?</div><br>Yes. He is referring to the Father, who along with Him and the Holy Spirit is one God.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />He was calling to the Father.</div><br>Jesus (alaihi al-salam) said "<font color="#0066CC">My God, my God, <b><u>why have you forsaken me?</u></b></font>".<br>Does this sound like a volunteer? &#091;/Quote&#093;<br>Yes. He knew the Father would forsake Him and allow Him to die.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />I pray every night that God leads Muslims to the truth. I also pray that if I am mistaken about Him, He show me.</div><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br />Alhamdo lellah (<span ="st"="">Praise be to God</span>)</div><br>Blessed be His Name.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />Then why are you referring to it to claim Jesus did not say He is God?</div><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br />Because most Christians insist that Jesus is God and to be worshiped despite the fact that the bible doesn't say it.</div><br>It does, and you yourself have admitted this later in your response. I will show you where.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />You are right, that is a bad example. <br><br>Let me ask you this: Do you believe God is better than Satan?<br><br>If so, please show me a verse that states "Allah is better than Satan".</div><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br />Since you insist on going down this route let's see where it will lead us.<br><br>We've established that the previous question you had asked is not equivalent to what I am asking you. Now you've asked another question. Let's explore if this question is equivalent to mine.<br><br><b>Claim A. </b>Jesus is God and should be worshiped<br><br>Evidence to refute this claim from both the Quran and the Bible (Mark 10:18, John 17:3, John 20:17, John 14:28, John 10:29, John 5:30, Revelation 3:12, Matthew 27:46, Matthew 12:28, luke 11:20, Matthew 6:9-13, Matthew 26:39, John 7:16, John 14:24, John 12:49, John 4:34, John 6:38, Luke 22:42, John 8:42, Mark 13:32, Matthew 24:36, John 7:16)</div><br>None of these passages refute that Jesus is God. The Quran refutes this truth. The Bible does not.<br><br>Nowhere in the Bible did Jesus say "I am <b>not</b> God" or "do <b>not</b> worship me". Nowhere in the Bible is it written "Jesus is not God" or "Jesus is not to be worshiped".<br><br>You demanded me to show you a passage from the Bible where Jesus said "I am God, worship me". I have shown you passages where He said things that He would only say if He claimed to be God... and you concurred on this, as I will show later on.<br><br>If you challenged me to show you a passage where Jesus said "I am God, worship me", I challenge you to show me a passage where Jesus said "I am not God, do not worship me". You are unable to show such a passage.<br><br><b><b><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br />Claim B.</b> </b>Allah (subhanaho wa ta'ala) is better than satan<br><br>No evidence to refute this claim</div><br>There is also no evidence in the Bible tor refute the claim that Jesus is God.<br><br><b><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br />Conclusion: </b><br>'A' is questionable, disputable.</div><br>Questionable and disputable according to you and others who misunderstand God's word, but very clear to those of us who know and recognize who Jesus is.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br />'B'  is unquestionable, indisputable.</div><br>Then show me a passage from the Quran where it says "God is better than Satan" or Allah said "I am better than Satan", as you demanded I show you a passage from the Bible where Jesus said "I am God, worship me".<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br />'A' needs clarification, 'B' doesn't.</div><br>Both are extremely clear from reading and understanding the Bible and Quran respectively.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br />If you want an equivalent question, you could ask:<br><b><br>Q:</b> Does Allah say "I am God" or "Worship me"?<br><br><span id="t-2-21" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><span ="ayatext"=""><font color="#0066CC"><i><b><font color="#000000">1.</font> </b>"O mankind, <b>worship your Lord</b>, who created you and those before you, that you may become righteous"</i></font></span> <span ="ayanumber"="">(<a href="http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/2:21" target="_blank">2:21</a>)</span></span></span><br><br><font color="#0066CC"><i><span id="t-2-21" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><span ="ayatext"=""><font color="#0066CC"><i><b><font color="#000000">2.</font> </b></i></font></span></span></span>"</i><span id="t-112-1" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><span ="ayatext"=""><i>Say, "<b>He is Allah, &#091;who is&#093; One</b>,</i></span> <span ="ayanumber"="">(<a href="http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/112:1" target="_blank">1</a>)</span></span></span> <span id="t-112-2" ="aya"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><span ="ayatext"="">Allah, the Eternal Refuge.</span> <span ="ayanumber"="">(<a href="http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/112:2" target="_blank">2</a>)</span></span></span> <span id="t-112-3" ="aya"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><span ="ayatext"="">He neither begets nor is born,</span> <span ="ayanumber"="">(<a href="http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/112:3" target="_blank">3</a>)</span></span></span> <span id="t-112-4" ="aya"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><i><span ="ayatext"="">Nor is there to Him any equivalent."</span></i> <span ="ayanumber"="">(<a href="http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/112:4" target="_blank">4</a>)<br><br></span></span></span></font><i><font color="#0066CC"><span id="t-2-21" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><span ="ayatext"=""><font color="#0066CC"><i><b><font color="#000000">3.</font> </b></i></font></span></span></span>"</font></i><span id="t-3-51" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><i><font color="#0066CC"><span ="ayatext"="">Indeed, <b>Allah is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him</b>. That is the straight path."</span></font></i> <span ="ayanumber"="">(<a href="http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/3:51" target="_blank">3:51</a>)<br><br></span></span></span><i><font color="#0066CC"><i><font color="#0066CC"><span id="t-2-21" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><span ="ayatext"=""><font color="#000000"><b>4.</b></font></span></span></span></font></i> "</font></i><span id="t-4-36" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><i><font color="#0066CC"><span ="ayatext"=""><b>Worship Allah</b> and associate nothing with Him"</span> </font></i><span ="ayanumber"="">(<a href="http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/4:36" target="_blank">4:36</a>)</span></span></span><br><br><i><font color="#0066CC"><i><font color="#0066CC"><span id="t-2-21" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><span ="ayatext"=""><font color="#000000"><b>5.</b></font></span></span></span></font></i> "</font></i><span id="t-2-139" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><span ="ayatext"=""><i><font color="#0066CC">Say, &#091;O Muhammad&#093;, "Do you argue with us about <b>Allah while He is our Lord and your Lord</b>? For us are our deeds, and for you are your deeds. And we are sincere &#091;in deed and intention&#093; to Him."</font></i></span> <span ="ayanumber"="">(<a href="http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/2:139" target="_blank">139</a>)<br><br></span></span></span><font color="#0066CC"><i><i><font color="#0066CC"><span id="t-2-21" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><span ="ayatext"=""><font color="#000000"><b>6.</b></font></span></span></span></font></i> "</i></font><span id="t-5-72" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><span ="ayatext"=""><font color="#0066CC"><i>They have certainly disbelieved who say, "Allah is the Messiah, the son of Mary" while the Messiah has said, "O Children of Israel, <b>worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord.</b>" Indeed, he who associates others with Allah - Allah has forbidden him Paradise, and his refuge is the Fire. And there are not for the wrongdoers any helpers."</i></font></span> <span ="ayanumber"="">(<a href="http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/5:72" target="_blank">5:72</a>)</span></span></span><br><br><font color="#0066CC"><i><i><font color="#0066CC"><span id="t-2-21" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><span ="ayatext"=""><font color="#0066CC"><i><b><font color="#000000">7. </font></b></i></font></span></span></span></font></i>"</i></font><span id="t-5-117" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><span ="ayatext"=""><font color="#0066CC"><i>I said not to them except what You commanded me - <b>to worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord</b>. And I was a witness over them as long as I was among them; but when You took me up, You were the Observer over them, and You are, over all things, Witness."</i></font></span> <span ="ayanumber"="">(<a href="http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/5:117" target="_blank">5:117</a>)</span></span></span><br><i><br></i><span id="t-6-102" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><span ="ayatext"=""><i><font color="#0066CC"><i><font color="#0066CC"><span id="t-2-21" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><span ="ayatext"=""><font color="#0066CC"><i><b><font color="#000000">8. </font></b></i></font></span></span></span></font></i>"<b>That is Allah, your Lord</b>; there is no deity except Him, the Creator of all things, so worship Him. And He is Disposer of all things."</font></i></span> <span ="ayanumber"="">(<a href="http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/6:102" target="_blank">6:102</a>)<br><br></span></span></span><span id="t-6-102" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><span ="ayanumber"=""><font color="#0066CC"><i><i><font color="#0066CC"><span id="t-2-21" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><span ="ayatext"=""><font color="#0066CC"><i><b><font color="#000000">9. </font></b></i></font></span></span></span></font></i>"</i></font></span></span></span><span id="t-7-54" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><span ="ayatext"=""><font color="#0066CC"><i>Indeed,<b> your Lord is Allah</b>, who created the heavens and earth in six days and then established Himself above the Throne."</i></font></span> <span ="ayanumber"="">(<a href="http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/7:54" target="_blank">7:54</a>)</span></span></span><font color="#0066CC"><i><br></i></font><font color="#0066CC"><i><i><font color="#0066CC"><span id="t-2-21" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><span ="ayatext"=""><font color="#0066CC"><i><b><font color="#000000"><br>10. </font></b></i></font></span></span></span></font></i>"</i></font><span id="t-7-59" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><span ="ayatext"=""><font color="#0066CC"><i>We had certainly sent Noah to his people, and he said, "O my people, <b>worship Allah</b>; you have no deity other than Him. Indeed, I fear for you the punishment of a tremendous Day."</i></font></span> <span ="ayanumber"="">(<a href="http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/7:59" target="_blank">7:59</a>)</span></span></span><br><br><font color="#0066CC"><i><i><font color="#0066CC"><span id="t-2-21" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><span ="ayatext"=""><font color="#0066CC"><i><b><font color="#000000">11. </font></b></i></font></span></span></span></font></i>"</i></font><span id="t-7-65" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><span ="ayatext"=""><font color="#0066CC"><i>And to the 'Aad &#091;We sent&#093; their brother Hud. He said, "O my people, <b>worship Allah</b>; you have no deity other than Him. Then will you not fear Him?"</i></font></span> <span ="ayanumber"="">(<a href="http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/7:65" target="_blank">7:65</a>)</span></span></span><br><font color="#0066CC"><i><br></i></font><span id="t-7-73" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><font color="#0066CC"><i><span ="ayatext"=""><i><font color="#0066CC"><span id="t-2-21" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><span ="ayatext"=""><font color="#0066CC"><i><b><font color="#000000">12. </font></b></i></font></span></span></span></font></i>"And to the Thamud &#091;We sent&#093; their brother Salih. He said, "O my people, <b>worship Allah</b>; you have no deity other than Him. There has come to you clear evidence from your Lord. This is the she-camel of Allah &#091;sent&#093; to you as a sign. So leave her to eat within Allah 's land and do not touch her with harm, lest there seize you a painful punishment."</span></i></font> <span ="ayanumber"="">(<a href="http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/7:73" target="_blank">7:73</a>)</span></span></span><br><br><i><b>13. </b></i><span id="t-7-85" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><font color="#0066CC"><i><span ="ayatext"=""><i><font color="#0066CC"><span id="t-2-21" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><span ="ayatext"=""></span></span></span></font></i>"And to &#091;the people of&#093; Madyan &#091;We sent&#093; their brother Shu'ayb. He said, "O my people, <b>worship Allah</b>; you have no deity other than Him. There has come to you clear evidence from your Lord. So fulfill the measure and weight and do not deprive people of their due and cause not corruption upon the earth after its reformation. That is better for you, if you should be believers."</span></i></font> <span ="ayanumber"="">(<a href="http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/7:85" target="_blank">7:85</a>)</span></span></span><br><br><font color="#0066CC"><i><i><font color="#0066CC"><span id="t-2-21" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><span ="ayatext"=""><font color="#0066CC"><i><b><font color="#000000">14. </font></b></i></font></span></span></span></font></i>"</i></font><span id="t-11-50" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><span ="ayatext"=""><font color="#0066CC"><i>And to 'Aad &#091;We sent&#093; their brother Hud. He said, "O my people, <b>worship Allah</b>; you have no deity other than Him. You are not but inventors &#091;of falsehood&#093;."</i></font></span> <span ="ayanumber"="">(<a href="http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/11:50" target="_blank">11:50</a>)</span></span></span><br><br><font color="#0066CC"><i><i><font color="#0066CC"><span id="t-2-21" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><span ="ayatext"=""><font color="#0066CC"><i><b><font color="#000000">15. </font></b></i></font></span></span></span></font></i>"</i></font><span id="t-16-36" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><span ="ayatext"=""><font color="#0066CC"><i>And We certainly sent into every nation a messenger, &#091;saying&#093;, "<b>Worship Allah</b> and avoid Taghut." And among them were those whom Allah guided, and among them were those upon whom error was &#091;deservedly&#093; decreed. So proceed through the earth and observe how was the end of the deniers."</i></font></span> <span ="ayanumber"="">(<a href="http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/16:36" target="_blank">16:36</a>)<br><br></span></span></span><span id="t-16-36" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><span ="ayanumber"=""><i><font color="#0066CC"><i><font color="#0066CC"><span id="t-2-21" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><span ="ayatext"=""><font color="#0066CC"><i><b><font color="#000000">16. </font></b></i></font></span></span></span></font></i>"</font></i></span></span></span><span id="t-22-77" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><span ="ayatext"=""><i><font color="#0066CC">O you who have believed, bow and prostrate and <b>worship your Lord</b> and do good - that you may succeed."</font></i></span> <span ="ayanumber"="">(<a href="http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/22:77" target="_blank">22:77</a>)</span></span></span><br><br><i><font color="#0066CC"><i><font color="#0066CC"><span id="t-2-21" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><span ="ayatext"=""><font color="#0066CC"><i><b><font color="#000000">17. </font></b></i></font></span></span></span></font></i>"</font></i><span id="t-23-23" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><span ="ayatext"=""><i><font color="#0066CC">And We had certainly sent Noah to his people, and he said, "O my people, <b>worship Allah</b>; you have no deity other than Him; then will you not fear Him?"</font></i></span> <span ="ayanumber"="">(<a href="http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/23:23" target="_blank">23:23</a>)</span></span></span><br><br><font color="#0066CC"><i><i><font color="#0066CC"><span id="t-2-21" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><span ="ayatext"=""><font color="#0066CC"><i><b><font color="#000000">18. </font></b></i></font></span></span></span></font></i>"</i></font><span id="t-23-32" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><span ="ayatext"=""><font color="#0066CC"><i>And We sent among them a messenger from themselves, &#091;saying&#093;, "<b>Worship Allah</b>; you have no deity other than Him; then will you not fear Him?"</i></font></span> <span ="ayanumber"="">(<a href="http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/23:32" target="_blank">23:32</a>)</span></span></span><br><br><font color="#0066CC"><i><i><font color="#0066CC"><span id="t-2-21" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><span ="ayatext"=""><font color="#0066CC"><i><b><font color="#000000">19. </font></b></i></font></span></span></span></font></i>"</i></font><span id="t-27-45" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><span ="ayatext"=""><font color="#0066CC"><i>And We had certainly sent to Thamud their brother Salih, &#091;saying&#093;, "<b>Worship Allah</b>," and at once they were two parties conflicting."</i></font></span> <span ="ayanumber"="">(<a href="http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/27:45" target="_blank">27:45</a>)</span></span></span><br><br><font color="#0066CC"><i><i><font color="#0066CC"><span id="t-2-21" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><span ="ayatext"=""><font color="#0066CC"><i><b><font color="#000000">20. </font></b></i></font></span></span></span></font></i>"</i></font><span id="t-29-16" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><font color="#0066CC"><i><span ="ayatext"="">And &#091;We sent&#093; Abraham, when he said to his people, "<b>Worship Allah</b> and fear Him. That is best for you, if you should know."</span></i></font> <span ="ayanumber"="">(<a href="http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/29:16" target="_blank">29:16</a>)</span></span></span><br><br><i><font color="#0066CC"><i><font color="#0066CC"><span id="t-2-21" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><span ="ayatext"=""><font color="#0066CC"><i><b><font color="#000000">21. </font></b></i></font></span></span></span></font></i>"</font></i><span id="t-29-36" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><span ="ayatext"=""><i><font color="#0066CC">And to Madyan &#091;We sent&#093; their brother Shu'ayb, and he said, "O my people, <b>worship Allah</b> and expect the Last Day and do not commit abuse on the earth, spreading corruption."</font></i></span> <span ="ayanumber"="">(<a href="http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/29:36" target="_blank">29:36</a>)<br></span></span></span><br><span id="t-53-62" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><span ="ayatext"=""><font color="#0066CC"><i><i><font color="#0066CC"><span id="t-2-21" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><span ="ayatext"=""><font color="#0066CC"><i><b><font color="#000000">22. </font></b></i></font></span></span></span></font></i>"<b>So prostrate to Allah and worship &#091;Him&#093;.</b>"</i></font></span> <span ="ayanumber"="">(<a href="http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/53:62" target="_blank">53:62</a>)</span></span></span><br><br><font color="#0066CC"><i><i><font color="#0066CC"><span id="t-2-21" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><span ="ayatext"=""><font color="#0066CC"><i><b><font color="#000000">23. </font></b></i></font></span></span></span></font></i>"</i></font><span id="t-2-133" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><font color="#0066CC"><i><span ="ayatext"="">Or were you witnesses when death approached Jacob, when he said to his sons, "What will you worship after me?" They said, "<b>We will worship your God and the God of your fathers, Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac - one God. And we are Muslims &#091;in submission&#093; to Him</b>."</span></i></font> <span ="ayanumber"="">(<a href="http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/2:133" target="_blank">2:133</a>)</span></span></span><br><br><font color="#0066CC"><i><i><font color="#0066CC"><span id="t-2-21" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><span ="ayatext"=""><font color="#0066CC"><i><b><font color="#000000">24. </font></b></i></font></span></span></span></font></i>"</i></font><span id="t-9-112" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><span ="ayatext"=""><font color="#0066CC"><i>&#091;Such believers are&#093; the repentant, <b>the worshippers, the praisers &#091;of Allah&#093;</b>, the travelers &#091;for His cause&#093;, those who bow and prostrate &#091;in prayer&#093;, those who enjoin what is right and forbid what is wrong, and those who observe the limits &#091;set by&#093; Allah. And give good tidings to the believers."</i></font></span> <span ="ayanumber"="">(<a href="http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/9:112" target="_blank">9:112</a>)</span></span></span><br><br><i><b>25. </b></i><span id="t-6-164" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><span ="ayatext"=""><i><font color="#0066CC"><i><font color="#0066CC"><span id="t-2-21" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><span ="ayatext"=""></span></span></span></font></i>"Say, "<b>Is it other than Allah I should desire as a lord while He is the Lord of all things</b>?"</font></i></span> <span ="ayanumber"="">(<a href="http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/6:164" target="_blank">6:164</a>)</span></span></span> <br><br><b>26.</b> <font color="#0066CC"><i>"</i></font><span id="t-39-11" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><span ="ayatext"=""><font color="#0066CC"><i>Say, &#091;O Muhammad&#093;, "Indeed, I have been commanded to <b>worship Allah</b>, &#091;being&#093; sincere to Him in religion."</i></font></span> <span ="ayanumber"="">(<a href="http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/39:11" target="_blank">39:11</a>)</span></span></span><br><br><b>27.</b> <i><font color="#0066CC">"</font></i><span id="t-39-66" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><font color="#0066CC"><span ="ayatext"=""><i>Rather, <b>worship &#091;only&#093; Allah</b> and be among the grateful."</i></span></font> <span ="ayanumber"="">(<a href="http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/39:66" target="_blank">39:66</a>)</span></span></span><br><br><b>28.</b> <font color="#0066CC"><i>"</i></font><span id="t-20-14" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><font color="#0066CC"><i><span ="ayatext"="">Indeed, <b>I am Allah</b>. <b>There is no deity except Me</b>, <b>so worship Me</b> and establish prayer for My remembrance."</span></i></font> <span ="ayanumber"="">(<a href="http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/20:14" target="_blank">14</a>)<br><br></span></span></span>And so on...<br><br></div><br>That's not what I asked you to show me. I asked you to show me a passage from the Quran where God says He is better than Satan, or one that says God is better than Satan.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br />That's how Allah (subhanaho wa ta'ala) makes Himself known. <font size="2">Allah would never</font><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"> chose to allow people to come to that conclusion themselves (as you explained for Jesus), <font size="2">because the people would excuse themselves on that day and say<font size="2"> <i>"You never told us, you left it for us to come to that </i></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font size="2"><font size="2"><i><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000">conclusion, so don't blame us for not believing</font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></i></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font><i>"</i>. <font color="#000000">Instead, Allah is <font size="2">clear</font> in the Quran, and on that day we </font><font size="2"><font color="#000000">won't have that excuse</font><font size="2"><font color="#000000"> because </font><font size="2"><font color="#000000"><font size="2">H</font>e was explicit in </font><font size="2"><font color="#000000">identifying Himself</font><font size="2"><font color="#000000">.</font> </font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font>The Holy Quran is a miracle from God, a blessing and a mercy for His creation, if only most of us would know.</div><br>As there is no passage in the Quran that says "Allah is better than Satan" or where God says "I am better than Satan", you also need to come to that conclusion yourself by reading and understanding your Scripture.<br><br>Using your logic, that God would never choose to let people come to a conclusion about Him themselves and there is no ayah that states He is better than Satan, then are you saying people will be allowed to excuse themselves on the Day of Judgement by saying they didn't know He is better than Iblis?<br><br><i><font color="#0066CC"><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br />"</font></i><span id="t-17-88" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><span ="ayatext"=""><i><font color="#0066CC">Say, "If mankind and the jinn gathered in order to produce the like of this Qur'an, they could not produce the like of it, even if they were to each other assistants."</font></i></span> <span ="ayanumber"="">(<a href="http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/17:88" target="_blank">17:88</a>)</span></span></span><br><br>$5000 Reward If Jesus said - I am God Worship Me<br><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZmd4D9R3d0" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZmd4D9R3d0</a><br><br></div><br>I watched this clip already, and as I will show you, He did indeed say He is God. <br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />Did Muhammad claim he shared glory with God before the world existed? Did he claim he will judge the nations and decide who goes to heaven and hell? Did he claim that those who have seen him have seen God, and that he and God are one?</div><br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br />No Mohammad (pbuh) didn't say any of this <b>because he is a messenger <font color="#FF0000">and not God</font></b>. I didn't claim he said any of this.<br><br>If the bible states that Jesus said he will "judge the nations and decide who goes to heaven and hell", then I wouldn't believe those words to be his.</div><br>You said that Muhammad did not say he shared glory with God before the world existed, that he did not claim he will judge the nations, that those who have seen him have seen God and that he and God are one, because, in your words, he is a messenger <b>and not God</b>.<br><br>If he was God, he surely would have said he will judge the world. He surely would have said that those who have seen him have seen Allah, and that he and Allah are one.<br><br>Yet he did not, because these are things only God would say.<br><br>These are things that Jesus said in the Gospels.<br><br>You said that the Bible does not say Jesus is God:<br><br>"Because most Christians insist that Jesus is God and to be worshiped <b>despite the fact that the bible doesn't say it. "<br><br></b>However, at the same time, you acknowledge that the reason that Muhammad in the Quran and hadiths did not say the things that Jesus said in the Bible was<b><u> because he is not God</u></b>.<br><br>You have just admitted that the Bible says that Jesus is God, because He said things that a messenger would not say since a messenger is not God.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br /><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><span id="verse_2030__9_c&#111;ntent">Are there 2 Gods or does God have MPD? Or is this the kind of language you believed He used to express Himself?</span></font></font></div><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br />Different type of plural, a royal "we". &#1606;&#1581;&#1606; &#1604;&#1604;&#1578;&#1593;&#1592;&#1610;&#1605;<br><br>This is a type of plural to illustrate greatness.<br><br>Qur'an uses 'WE' for Allah (Two types of plural)<br><a href="http://www.irf.net/index.php?opti&#111;n=com_c&#111;ntent&amp;view=article&amp;id=492%3Aquran-uses-we-for-allah&amp;catid=72%3Amcq-who-have-some-knowledge-about-islam&amp;Itemid=199" target="_blank">http://www.irf.net/index.php?option=com_content&amp;view=article&amp;id=492%3Aquran-uses-we-for-allah&amp;catid=72%3Amcq-who-have-some-knowledge-about-islam&amp;Itemid=199</a><br><br>Why Does Quran Say "We &amp; He"?<br><a href="http://www.godallah.com/we_and_he.php" target="_blank">http://www.godallah.com/we_and_he.php</a><br><br>&#1605;&#1593;&#1606;&#1609; &#1575;&#1587;&#1578;&#1582;&#1583;&#1575;&#1605; &#1575;&#1604;&#1590;&#1605;&#1610;&#1585; "&#1606;&#1581;&#1606;" &#1601;&#1610; &#1575;&#1604;&#1602;&#1585;&#1570;&#1606;<br><a href="http://islamqa.info/ar/ref/606" target="_blank">http://islamqa.info/ar/ref/606</a><br><br></div><br>Yet a misunderstanding of the royal "We" that God uses in the Quran could lead one to mistakenly believe that Muslims believe there are two Gods. Similarly, a misunderstanding of the nature of God as the Father, Son and Holy Spirit that the Bible teaches could lead someone to mistakenly believe that God has MPD or that Christians believe in more than one God.<br>&nbsp;<br><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />If God chose not to guide people from the beginning, does this mean it is His will that people would wander off His path?</font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></div><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br />It might be so, Allah knows best. We are all born with the same Fitrah from Allah. He (subhanaho wa ta'ala) gave us everything, and free choice to do what we want and an intellect to decide with. He gave us prophets, signs, warnings, lessons, examples etc. Indeed we cannot count his infinite favours and blessings. But it's undeniable that some will believe whilest others won't. Why? Allah knows best. Whatever is His will, I submit to it.</div><br>Sp in other words, it is God's will that some people go to hell. <br><br><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br /></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font>Why was God <font size="2">according to your faith incapable of sending just one messenger and getting His message out the f<font size="2">irst time?</font></font></div><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br />He (subhanaho wa ta'ala) is capable of anything. If any muslim tells you otherwise then they are wrong.</div><br>Why did it take Him 124,000 attempts before He was able to send a mseenger whose message and holy book has not been forgotten or tampered with?<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />Why did He not preserve all of the books before the Quran?</div><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br />This is a good question. And maybe one of the muslim brothers or sisters can jump in on this. What I can say is this, we know and believe that the divine message from Allah (subhanaho wa ta'ala) was sent to us incrementally, bit by bit, through various prophets, over time, to different people. The message was constantly corrupted and people would repeatedly deviate from the true message sent to them. We know many of these occurrences and the prophets that had to endure them. Some prophets had scriptures and some didn't. But as we know it was a common trend for the message to get corrupted throughout history. And through those events of deviation and corruption, the next message can take that lesson and teach it to the next generation. In other words, those events in history serve as a warning, a lesson and example to learn from. This is the wisdom behind it in my opinion. So now we reach to the final prophet and his message from Allah. Why is God preserving this final message? Because if it was not preserved, it would have the same fate as all the other messages throughout history, it would eventually get corrupted and people would once again deviate, and that would mean complete loss of hope for us until the end of time. The last message had to be preserved by Allah (subhanaho wa ta'ala). And Allah knows best.</div><br>Why not preserve the first message to begin with, and not allow it to be changed?<br><br>And why would He contradict Himself by claiming that the traits of his final prophet were "hidden" by Christians and Jews as they corrupted the Injil and Torah and then claim they can be found in these very same books???<br><br><br>Nice talking with you. You are in my prayers. Looking forward to reading your response. Again, please accept my apologies for present and future delays in responses.<br><br>Allah Akhbar. Blessed be His Name.<br>]]>
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   <pubDate>Wed, 30 Jan 2013 16:32:44 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL : Greetings Rational,&amp;#034;Anyone...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=69566">Caringheart</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 30 January 2013 at 3:03pm<br /><br />Greetings Rational,<br><blockquote>"Anyone that says not my will but God's will, is a muslim. A muslim means the person who submits the will to almighty God. Jesus (pbuh) was a muslim, a mighty prophet of God."<br></blockquote>If these words are true then there are plenty who qualify as 'muslim', even Jews(like Jesus).&nbsp; There are many who are living their lives submitted to the one God.&nbsp; I follow Jesus and am submitted to God.&nbsp; "Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed by Thy name, Thy kingdom come, <b>Thy will be done</b>..."&nbsp; This is the prayer that I pray... the one Jesus taught us to pray.<br><br>You keep trying to understand and explain God with the mind of a human, instead of realizing and accepting that God is a great mystery.&nbsp; Only to one who has the Holy Spirit, is the mystery clear and understood.&nbsp; Only when you can stop putting God in the box of the limited human mind. <br><br>Salaam and may God bring you blessings,<br>Caringheart<br>]]>
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   <pubDate>Wed, 30 Jan 2013 15:03:03 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :   Originally posted by Rational     Originally...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=70404">Abu Loren</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 30 January 2013 at 9:11am<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />Salaam Alaikum, Rational.<br><br>He simultaneously died and stayed alive at the same time. This is something us human beings are incapable of doing, much less beginning to understand. Fortunately, God is not one of us.<br></div><br>God was alive and dead at the same time?<br></div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>This is getting better and better. I think this Christian is rounded up to a corner and think things along as he goes.</div>]]>
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   <pubDate>Wed, 30 Jan 2013 09:11:12 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :     Originally posted by TG12345   Originally...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71774">Rational</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 30 January 2013 at 6:25am<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />Salaam Alaikum, Rational.<br><br>God both died as the Son and stayed alive as the Father and Holy Spirit.<br></div><br>But did the <u>One God</u> die?<br></div><br><br>He simultaneously died and stayed alive at the same time. This is something us human beings are incapable of doing, much less beginning to understand. Fortunately, God is not one of us.<br></div><br>God was alive and dead at the same time?<br><span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by Rational - 30 January 2013 at 6:30am</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Wed, 30 Jan 2013 06:25:29 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL : Assalamo alaik truthnowcome,I...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71774">Rational</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 29 January 2013 at 11:28pm<br /><br />Assalamo alaik truthnowcome,<br /><br />I think it's safe to say that we're still within the original topic since believing in Jesus (alaihi as-salam) as God is shirk, a one way ticket to hell. Wa Allaho alam. But then again i didn't read the entire thread so i might be wrong :)<span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by Rational - 29 January 2013 at 11:30pm</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Tue, 29 Jan 2013 23:28:09 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL : Salaam to all,I was more taken...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=56741">truthnowcome</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 29 January 2013 at 10:48pm<br /><br />Salaam to all,<br><br>I was more taken up in truing to unite the world against toe Masons. Now that my message has reach home I have the time to engage on the level of Dawah.<br><br>This discussion has move from it original topic to weather if Jesus (S) is God or not. however, in response to weather if all Christians are going to Hell or not Allah (S) knows best. Although He made it clear that people who believe in the one true God will go to Heaven and the other hand those who worship created beings and associate partner with him would not enter Heaven we are not allowed to point out who will enter hell or Heaven only Allah (S) knows. Our mission is to conveyed the message to believe in the one true God and do not associate partner with him, and if any one do they will not enter Heaven.<br><br>As for if Jesus (S) is God my first question and this is for TG, Can you explain which part of Jesus (S) is the God part, and which is man part.<br><br>I need some clarification although it was proven that he prayed to some one superior to him whom he call "his God".<br><br>Br.&nbsp; zainool<br><br>Br. zainool&nbsp; &nbsp; <br>]]>
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   <pubDate>Tue, 29 Jan 2013 22:48:06 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :                ...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71774">Rational</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 29 January 2013 at 7:30pm<br /><br />&#1575;&#1604;&#1587;&#1604;&#1575;&#1605; &#1593;&#1604;&#1610;&#1603;&#1605; &#1608;&#1585;&#1581;&#1605;&#1577; &#1575;&#1604;&#1604;&#1607; &#1608;&#1576;&#1585;&#1603;&#1575;&#1578;&#1607;<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />Yes. It is also clear and explicit that Jesus made Himself <u>voluntarily</u> inferior to the Father <u>although</u>(?) He was in the form of God.</div><br>In other words, Jesus (alaihi al-salam) "volunteered" (offered) to be inferior to the father. Volunteering implies <i>two</i> parties, the one <u>offering</u> and the one <u>receiving</u>. But because you have <b>One God</b>, the only sensible deduction would be that God "volunteered" to Himself. <br><br>It's interesting to see the word "although" in your response. In other words, even though Jesus is God, He offered to be inferior to Himself. Otherwise you wouldn't have <b>One God.</b><br><br>Jesus (alaihi al-salam) said "<font color="#0066CC">I can of mine own self do <b><u>nothing</u></b></font>". You said Jesus was in the form of God, then why would God say he can do nothing?<br><br>Jesus (alaihi al-salam) said "<font color="#0066CC">because I seek <b>not mine own will, but the will of the Father</b></font>"<br>Anyone that says not my will but God's will, is a muslim. A muslim means the person who submits the will to almighty God. Jesus (pbuh) was a muslim, a mighty prophet of God.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />Jesus often referred to the Father as His God.</div><br>You say you have <b>One God</b>. Just to clarify, Is He referring to Himself as His God?<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />He was calling to the Father.</div><br>Jesus (alaihi al-salam) said "<font color="#0066CC">My God, my God, <b><u>why have you forsaken me?</u></b></font>".<br>Does this sound like a volunteer?<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />I pray every night that God leads Muslims to the truth. I also pray that if I am mistaken about Him, He show me.</div><br>Alhamdo lellah (<span ="st"="">Praise be to God</span>)<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />Then why are you referring to it to claim Jesus did not say He is God?</div><br>Because most Christians insist that Jesus is God and to be worshiped despite the fact that the bible doesn't say it.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />You are right, that is a bad example. <br><br>Let me ask you this: Do you believe God is better than Satan?<br><br>If so, please show me a verse that states "Allah is better than Satan".</div><br>Since you insist on going down this route let's see where it will lead us.<br><br>We've established that the previous question you had asked is not equivalent to what I am asking you. Now you've asked another question. Let's explore if this question is equivalent to mine.<br><br><b>Claim A. </b>Jesus is God and should be worshiped<br><br>Evidence to refute this claim from both the Quran and the Bible (Mark 10:18, John 17:3, John 20:17, John 14:28, John 10:29, John 5:30, Revelation 3:12, Matthew 27:46, Matthew 12:28, luke 11:20, Matthew 6:9-13, Matthew 26:39, John 7:16, John 14:24, John 12:49, John 4:34, John 6:38, Luke 22:42, John 8:42, Mark 13:32, Matthew 24:36, John 7:16)<br><br><b><b>Claim B.</b> </b>Allah (subhanaho wa ta'ala) is better than satan<br><br>No evidence to refute this claim<br><br><b>Conclusion: </b><br>'A' is questionable, disputable.<br>'B'  is unquestionable, indisputable.<br><br>'A' needs clarification, 'B' doesn't.<br><br>If you want an equivalent question, you could ask:<br><b><br>Q:</b> Does Allah say "I am God" or "Worship me"?<br><br><span id="t-2-21" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><span ="ayatext"=""><font color="#0066CC"><i><b><font color="#000000">1.</font> </b>"O mankind, <b>worship your Lord</b>, who created you and those before you, that you may become righteous"</i></font></span> <span ="ayanumber"="">(<a href="http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/2:21" target="_blank">2:21</a>)</span></span></span><br><br><font color="#0066CC"><i><span id="t-2-21" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><span ="ayatext"=""><font color="#0066CC"><i><b><font color="#000000">2.</font> </b></i></font></span></span></span>"</i><span id="t-112-1" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><span ="ayatext"=""><i>Say, "<b>He is Allah, &#091;who is&#093; One</b>,</i></span> <span ="ayanumber"="">(<a href="http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/112:1" target="_blank">1</a>)</span></span></span> <span id="t-112-2" ="aya"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><span ="ayatext"="">Allah, the Eternal Refuge.</span> <span ="ayanumber"="">(<a href="http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/112:2" target="_blank">2</a>)</span></span></span> <span id="t-112-3" ="aya"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><span ="ayatext"="">He neither begets nor is born,</span> <span ="ayanumber"="">(<a href="http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/112:3" target="_blank">3</a>)</span></span></span> <span id="t-112-4" ="aya"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><i><span ="ayatext"="">Nor is there to Him any equivalent."</span></i> <span ="ayanumber"="">(<a href="http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/112:4" target="_blank">4</a>)<br><br></span></span></span></font><i><font color="#0066CC"><span id="t-2-21" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><span ="ayatext"=""><font color="#0066CC"><i><b><font color="#000000">3.</font> </b></i></font></span></span></span>"</font></i><span id="t-3-51" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><i><font color="#0066CC"><span ="ayatext"="">Indeed, <b>Allah is my Lord and your Lord, so worship Him</b>. That is the straight path."</span></font></i> <span ="ayanumber"="">(<a href="http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/3:51" target="_blank">3:51</a>)<br><br></span></span></span><i><font color="#0066CC"><i><font color="#0066CC"><span id="t-2-21" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><span ="ayatext"=""><font color="#000000"><b>4.</b></font></span></span></span></font></i> "</font></i><span id="t-4-36" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><i><font color="#0066CC"><span ="ayatext"=""><b>Worship Allah</b> and associate nothing with Him"</span> </font></i><span ="ayanumber"="">(<a href="http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/4:36" target="_blank">4:36</a>)</span></span></span><br><br><i><font color="#0066CC"><i><font color="#0066CC"><span id="t-2-21" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><span ="ayatext"=""><font color="#000000"><b>5.</b></font></span></span></span></font></i> "</font></i><span id="t-2-139" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><span ="ayatext"=""><i><font color="#0066CC">Say, &#091;O Muhammad&#093;, "Do you argue with us about <b>Allah while He is our Lord and your Lord</b>? For us are our deeds, and for you are your deeds. And we are sincere &#091;in deed and intention&#093; to Him."</font></i></span> <span ="ayanumber"="">(<a href="http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/2:139" target="_blank">139</a>)<br><br></span></span></span><font color="#0066CC"><i><i><font color="#0066CC"><span id="t-2-21" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><span ="ayatext"=""><font color="#000000"><b>6.</b></font></span></span></span></font></i> "</i></font><span id="t-5-72" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><span ="ayatext"=""><font color="#0066CC"><i>They have certainly disbelieved who say, "Allah is the Messiah, the son of Mary" while the Messiah has said, "O Children of Israel, <b>worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord.</b>" Indeed, he who associates others with Allah - Allah has forbidden him Paradise, and his refuge is the Fire. And there are not for the wrongdoers any helpers."</i></font></span> <span ="ayanumber"="">(<a href="http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/5:72" target="_blank">5:72</a>)</span></span></span><br><br><font color="#0066CC"><i><i><font color="#0066CC"><span id="t-2-21" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><span ="ayatext"=""><font color="#0066CC"><i><b><font color="#000000">7. </font></b></i></font></span></span></span></font></i>"</i></font><span id="t-5-117" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><span ="ayatext"=""><font color="#0066CC"><i>I said not to them except what You commanded me - <b>to worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord</b>. And I was a witness over them as long as I was among them; but when You took me up, You were the Observer over them, and You are, over all things, Witness."</i></font></span> <span ="ayanumber"="">(<a href="http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/5:117" target="_blank">5:117</a>)</span></span></span><br><i><br></i><span id="t-6-102" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><span ="ayatext"=""><i><font color="#0066CC"><i><font color="#0066CC"><span id="t-2-21" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><span ="ayatext"=""><font color="#0066CC"><i><b><font color="#000000">8. </font></b></i></font></span></span></span></font></i>"<b>That is Allah, your Lord</b>; there is no deity except Him, the Creator of all things, so worship Him. And He is Disposer of all things."</font></i></span> <span ="ayanumber"="">(<a href="http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/6:102" target="_blank">6:102</a>)<br><br></span></span></span><span id="t-6-102" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><span ="ayanumber"=""><font color="#0066CC"><i><i><font color="#0066CC"><span id="t-2-21" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><span ="ayatext"=""><font color="#0066CC"><i><b><font color="#000000">9. </font></b></i></font></span></span></span></font></i>"</i></font></span></span></span><span id="t-7-54" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><span ="ayatext"=""><font color="#0066CC"><i>Indeed,<b> your Lord is Allah</b>, who created the heavens and earth in six days and then established Himself above the Throne."</i></font></span> <span ="ayanumber"="">(<a href="http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/7:54" target="_blank">7:54</a>)</span></span></span><font color="#0066CC"><i><br></i></font><font color="#0066CC"><i><i><font color="#0066CC"><span id="t-2-21" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><span ="ayatext"=""><font color="#0066CC"><i><b><font color="#000000"><br>10. </font></b></i></font></span></span></span></font></i>"</i></font><span id="t-7-59" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><span ="ayatext"=""><font color="#0066CC"><i>We had certainly sent Noah to his people, and he said, "O my people, <b>worship Allah</b>; you have no deity other than Him. Indeed, I fear for you the punishment of a tremendous Day."</i></font></span> <span ="ayanumber"="">(<a href="http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/7:59" target="_blank">7:59</a>)</span></span></span><br><br><font color="#0066CC"><i><i><font color="#0066CC"><span id="t-2-21" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><span ="ayatext"=""><font color="#0066CC"><i><b><font color="#000000">11. </font></b></i></font></span></span></span></font></i>"</i></font><span id="t-7-65" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><span ="ayatext"=""><font color="#0066CC"><i>And to the 'Aad &#091;We sent&#093; their brother Hud. He said, "O my people, <b>worship Allah</b>; you have no deity other than Him. Then will you not fear Him?"</i></font></span> <span ="ayanumber"="">(<a href="http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/7:65" target="_blank">7:65</a>)</span></span></span><br><font color="#0066CC"><i><br></i></font><span id="t-7-73" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><font color="#0066CC"><i><span ="ayatext"=""><i><font color="#0066CC"><span id="t-2-21" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><span ="ayatext"=""><font color="#0066CC"><i><b><font color="#000000">12. </font></b></i></font></span></span></span></font></i>"And to the Thamud &#091;We sent&#093; their brother Salih. He said, "O my people, <b>worship Allah</b>; you have no deity other than Him. There has come to you clear evidence from your Lord. This is the she-camel of Allah &#091;sent&#093; to you as a sign. So leave her to eat within Allah 's land and do not touch her with harm, lest there seize you a painful punishment."</span></i></font> <span ="ayanumber"="">(<a href="http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/7:73" target="_blank">7:73</a>)</span></span></span><br><br><i><b>13. </b></i><span id="t-7-85" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><font color="#0066CC"><i><span ="ayatext"=""><i><font color="#0066CC"><span id="t-2-21" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><span ="ayatext"=""></span></span></span></font></i>"And to &#091;the people of&#093; Madyan &#091;We sent&#093; their brother Shu'ayb. He said, "O my people, <b>worship Allah</b>; you have no deity other than Him. There has come to you clear evidence from your Lord. So fulfill the measure and weight and do not deprive people of their due and cause not corruption upon the earth after its reformation. That is better for you, if you should be believers."</span></i></font> <span ="ayanumber"="">(<a href="http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/7:85" target="_blank">7:85</a>)</span></span></span><br><br><font color="#0066CC"><i><i><font color="#0066CC"><span id="t-2-21" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><span ="ayatext"=""><font color="#0066CC"><i><b><font color="#000000">14. </font></b></i></font></span></span></span></font></i>"</i></font><span id="t-11-50" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><span ="ayatext"=""><font color="#0066CC"><i>And to 'Aad &#091;We sent&#093; their brother Hud. He said, "O my people, <b>worship Allah</b>; you have no deity other than Him. You are not but inventors &#091;of falsehood&#093;."</i></font></span> <span ="ayanumber"="">(<a href="http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/11:50" target="_blank">11:50</a>)</span></span></span><br><br><font color="#0066CC"><i><i><font color="#0066CC"><span id="t-2-21" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><span ="ayatext"=""><font color="#0066CC"><i><b><font color="#000000">15. </font></b></i></font></span></span></span></font></i>"</i></font><span id="t-16-36" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><span ="ayatext"=""><font color="#0066CC"><i>And We certainly sent into every nation a messenger, &#091;saying&#093;, "<b>Worship Allah</b> and avoid Taghut." And among them were those whom Allah guided, and among them were those upon whom error was &#091;deservedly&#093; decreed. So proceed through the earth and observe how was the end of the deniers."</i></font></span> <span ="ayanumber"="">(<a href="http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/16:36" target="_blank">16:36</a>)<br><br></span></span></span><span id="t-16-36" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><span ="ayanumber"=""><i><font color="#0066CC"><i><font color="#0066CC"><span id="t-2-21" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><span ="ayatext"=""><font color="#0066CC"><i><b><font color="#000000">16. </font></b></i></font></span></span></span></font></i>"</font></i></span></span></span><span id="t-22-77" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><span ="ayatext"=""><i><font color="#0066CC">O you who have believed, bow and prostrate and <b>worship your Lord</b> and do good - that you may succeed."</font></i></span> <span ="ayanumber"="">(<a href="http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/22:77" target="_blank">22:77</a>)</span></span></span><br><br><i><font color="#0066CC"><i><font color="#0066CC"><span id="t-2-21" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><span ="ayatext"=""><font color="#0066CC"><i><b><font color="#000000">17. </font></b></i></font></span></span></span></font></i>"</font></i><span id="t-23-23" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><span ="ayatext"=""><i><font color="#0066CC">And We had certainly sent Noah to his people, and he said, "O my people, <b>worship Allah</b>; you have no deity other than Him; then will you not fear Him?"</font></i></span> <span ="ayanumber"="">(<a href="http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/23:23" target="_blank">23:23</a>)</span></span></span><br><br><font color="#0066CC"><i><i><font color="#0066CC"><span id="t-2-21" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><span ="ayatext"=""><font color="#0066CC"><i><b><font color="#000000">18. </font></b></i></font></span></span></span></font></i>"</i></font><span id="t-23-32" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><span ="ayatext"=""><font color="#0066CC"><i>And We sent among them a messenger from themselves, &#091;saying&#093;, "<b>Worship Allah</b>; you have no deity other than Him; then will you not fear Him?"</i></font></span> <span ="ayanumber"="">(<a href="http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/23:32" target="_blank">23:32</a>)</span></span></span><br><br><font color="#0066CC"><i><i><font color="#0066CC"><span id="t-2-21" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><span ="ayatext"=""><font color="#0066CC"><i><b><font color="#000000">19. </font></b></i></font></span></span></span></font></i>"</i></font><span id="t-27-45" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><span ="ayatext"=""><font color="#0066CC"><i>And We had certainly sent to Thamud their brother Salih, &#091;saying&#093;, "<b>Worship Allah</b>," and at once they were two parties conflicting."</i></font></span> <span ="ayanumber"="">(<a href="http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/27:45" target="_blank">27:45</a>)</span></span></span><br><br><font color="#0066CC"><i><i><font color="#0066CC"><span id="t-2-21" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><span ="ayatext"=""><font color="#0066CC"><i><b><font color="#000000">20. </font></b></i></font></span></span></span></font></i>"</i></font><span id="t-29-16" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><font color="#0066CC"><i><span ="ayatext"="">And &#091;We sent&#093; Abraham, when he said to his people, "<b>Worship Allah</b> and fear Him. That is best for you, if you should know."</span></i></font> <span ="ayanumber"="">(<a href="http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/29:16" target="_blank">29:16</a>)</span></span></span><br><br><i><font color="#0066CC"><i><font color="#0066CC"><span id="t-2-21" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><span ="ayatext"=""><font color="#0066CC"><i><b><font color="#000000">21. </font></b></i></font></span></span></span></font></i>"</font></i><span id="t-29-36" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><span ="ayatext"=""><i><font color="#0066CC">And to Madyan &#091;We sent&#093; their brother Shu'ayb, and he said, "O my people, <b>worship Allah</b> and expect the Last Day and do not commit abuse on the earth, spreading corruption."</font></i></span> <span ="ayanumber"="">(<a href="http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/29:36" target="_blank">29:36</a>)<br></span></span></span><br><span id="t-53-62" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><span ="ayatext"=""><font color="#0066CC"><i><i><font color="#0066CC"><span id="t-2-21" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><span ="ayatext"=""><font color="#0066CC"><i><b><font color="#000000">22. </font></b></i></font></span></span></span></font></i>"<b>So prostrate to Allah and worship &#091;Him&#093;.</b>"</i></font></span> <span ="ayanumber"="">(<a href="http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/53:62" target="_blank">53:62</a>)</span></span></span><br><br><font color="#0066CC"><i><i><font color="#0066CC"><span id="t-2-21" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><span ="ayatext"=""><font color="#0066CC"><i><b><font color="#000000">23. </font></b></i></font></span></span></span></font></i>"</i></font><span id="t-2-133" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><font color="#0066CC"><i><span ="ayatext"="">Or were you witnesses when death approached Jacob, when he said to his sons, "What will you worship after me?" They said, "<b>We will worship your God and the God of your fathers, Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac - one God. And we are Muslims &#091;in submission&#093; to Him</b>."</span></i></font> <span ="ayanumber"="">(<a href="http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/2:133" target="_blank">2:133</a>)</span></span></span><br><br><font color="#0066CC"><i><i><font color="#0066CC"><span id="t-2-21" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><span ="ayatext"=""><font color="#0066CC"><i><b><font color="#000000">24. </font></b></i></font></span></span></span></font></i>"</i></font><span id="t-9-112" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><span ="ayatext"=""><font color="#0066CC"><i>&#091;Such believers are&#093; the repentant, <b>the worshippers, the praisers &#091;of Allah&#093;</b>, the travelers &#091;for His cause&#093;, those who bow and prostrate &#091;in prayer&#093;, those who enjoin what is right and forbid what is wrong, and those who observe the limits &#091;set by&#093; Allah. And give good tidings to the believers."</i></font></span> <span ="ayanumber"="">(<a href="http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/9:112" target="_blank">9:112</a>)</span></span></span><br><br><i><b>25. </b></i><span id="t-6-164" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><span ="ayatext"=""><i><font color="#0066CC"><i><font color="#0066CC"><span id="t-2-21" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><span ="ayatext"=""></span></span></span></font></i>"Say, "<b>Is it other than Allah I should desire as a lord while He is the Lord of all things</b>?"</font></i></span> <span ="ayanumber"="">(<a href="http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/6:164" target="_blank">6:164</a>)</span></span></span> <br><br><b>26.</b> <font color="#0066CC"><i>"</i></font><span id="t-39-11" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><span ="ayatext"=""><font color="#0066CC"><i>Say, &#091;O Muhammad&#093;, "Indeed, I have been commanded to <b>worship Allah</b>, &#091;being&#093; sincere to Him in religion."</i></font></span> <span ="ayanumber"="">(<a href="http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/39:11" target="_blank">39:11</a>)</span></span></span><br><br><b>27.</b> <i><font color="#0066CC">"</font></i><span id="t-39-66" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><font color="#0066CC"><span ="ayatext"=""><i>Rather, <b>worship &#091;only&#093; Allah</b> and be among the grateful."</i></span></font> <span ="ayanumber"="">(<a href="http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/39:66" target="_blank">39:66</a>)</span></span></span><br><br><b>28.</b> <font color="#0066CC"><i>"</i></font><span id="t-20-14" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><font color="#0066CC"><i><span ="ayatext"="">Indeed, <b>I am Allah</b>. <b>There is no deity except Me</b>, <b>so worship Me</b> and establish prayer for My remembrance."</span></i></font> <span ="ayanumber"="">(<a href="http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/20:14" target="_blank">14</a>)<br><br></span></span></span>And so on...<br><br>That's how Allah (subhanaho wa ta'ala) makes Himself known. <font size="2">Allah would never</font><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"> chose to allow people to come to that conclusion themselves (as you explained for Jesus), <font size="2">because the people would excuse themselves on that day and say<font size="2"> <i>"You never told us, you left it for us to come to that </i></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font size="2"><font size="2"><i><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000">conclusion, so don't blame us for not believing</font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></i></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font><i>"</i>. <font color="#000000">Instead, Allah is <font size="2">clear</font> in the Quran, and on that day we </font><font size="2"><font color="#000000">won't have that excuse</font><font size="2"><font color="#000000"> because </font><font size="2"><font color="#000000"><font size="2">H</font>e was explicit in </font><font size="2"><font color="#000000">identifying Himself</font><font size="2"><font color="#000000">.</font> </font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font>The Holy Quran is a miracle from God, a blessing and a mercy for His creation, if only most of us would know.<br><br><i><font color="#0066CC">"</font></i><span id="t-17-88" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><span ="ayatext"=""><i><font color="#0066CC">Say, "If mankind and the jinn gathered in order to produce the like of this Qur'an, they could not produce the like of it, even if they were to each other assistants."</font></i></span> <span ="ayanumber"="">(<a href="http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/17:88" target="_blank">17:88</a>)</span></span></span><br><br>$5000 Reward If Jesus said - I am God Worship Me<br><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZmd4D9R3d0" target="_blank">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZmd4D9R3d0</a><br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />Did Muhammad claim he shared glory with God before the world existed? Did he claim he will judge the nations and decide who goes to heaven and hell? Did he claim that those who have seen him have seen God, and that he and God are one?</div><br>No Mohammad (pbuh) didn't say any of this because he is a messenger and not God. I didn't claim he said any of this.<br><br>If the bible states that Jesus said he will "judge the nations and decide who goes to heaven and hell", then I wouldn't believe those words to be his.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br /><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><span id="verse_2030__9_c&#111;ntent">Are there 2 Gods or does God have MPD? Or is this the kind of language you believed He used to express Himself?</span></font></font></div><br>Different type of plural, a royal "we". &#1606;&#1581;&#1606; &#1604;&#1604;&#1578;&#1593;&#1592;&#1610;&#1605;<br><br>This is a type of plural to illustrate greatness.<br><br>Qur'an uses 'WE' for Allah (Two types of plural)<br><a href="http://www.irf.net/index.php?opti&#111;n=com_c&#111;ntent&amp;view=article&amp;id=492%3Aquran-uses-we-for-allah&amp;catid=72%3Amcq-who-have-some-knowledge-about-islam&amp;Itemid=199" target="_blank">http://www.irf.net/index.php?option=com_content&amp;view=article&amp;id=492%3Aquran-uses-we-for-allah&amp;catid=72%3Amcq-who-have-some-knowledge-about-islam&amp;Itemid=199</a><br><br>Why Does Quran Say "We &amp; He"?<br><a href="http://www.godallah.com/we_and_he.php" target="_blank">http://www.godallah.com/we_and_he.php</a><br><br>&#1605;&#1593;&#1606;&#1609; &#1575;&#1587;&#1578;&#1582;&#1583;&#1575;&#1605; &#1575;&#1604;&#1590;&#1605;&#1610;&#1585; "&#1606;&#1581;&#1606;" &#1601;&#1610; &#1575;&#1604;&#1602;&#1585;&#1570;&#1606;<br><a href="http://islamqa.info/ar/ref/606" target="_blank">http://islamqa.info/ar/ref/606</a><br><br><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />If God chose not to guide people from the beginning, does this mean it is His will that people would wander off His path?</font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></div><br>It might be so, Allah knows best. We are all born with the same Fitrah from Allah. He (subhanaho wa ta'ala) gave us everything, and free choice to do what we want and an intellect to decide with. He gave us prophets, signs, warnings, lessons, examples etc. Indeed we cannot count his infinite favours and blessings. But it's undeniable that some will believe whilest others won't. Why? Allah knows best. Whatever is His will, I submit to it.<br><br><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br /></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font>Why was God <font size="2">according to your faith incapable of sending just one messenger and getting His message out the f<font size="2">irst time?</font></font></div><br>He (subhanaho wa ta'ala) is capable of anything. If any muslim tells you otherwise then they are wrong.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />Why did He not preserve all of the books before the Quran?</div><br>This is a good question. And maybe one of the muslim brothers or sisters can jump in on this. What I can say is this, we know and believe that the divine message from Allah (subhanaho wa ta'ala) was sent to us incrementally, bit by bit, through various prophets, over time, to different people. The message was constantly corrupted and people would repeatedly deviate from the true message sent to them. We know many of these occurrences and the prophets that had to endure them. Some prophets had scriptures and some didn't. But as we know it was a common trend for the message to get corrupted throughout history. And through those events of deviation and corruption, the next message can take that lesson and teach it to the next generation. In other words, those events in history serve as a warning, a lesson and example to learn from. This is the wisdom behind it in my opinion. So now we reach to the final prophet and his message from Allah. Why is God preserving this final message? Because if it was not preserved, it would have the same fate as all the other messages throughout history, it would eventually get corrupted and people would once again deviate, and that would mean complete loss of hope for us until the end of time. The last message had to be preserved by Allah (subhanaho wa ta'ala). And Allah knows best.<br><br><span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by Rational - 30 January 2013 at 6:41am</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Tue, 29 Jan 2013 19:30:50 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :   Originally posted by TG12345  Blah...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=70404">Abu Loren</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 29 January 2013 at 2:38am<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br /><div></div>Blah blah blah....<div></div><br></div><div>&nbsp;</div><div><div style="line-height: 18px; font-size: 16px;">Muhsin Khan</div><div style="line-height: 18px; font-size: 16px;">&nbsp;</div><span id="verse_541__7_c&#111;ntent"><em>Verily, Allah forgives not that partners should be set up with him in worship, but He forgives except that (anything else) to whom He pleases, and whoever sets up partners with Allah in worship, he has indeed invented a tremendous sin. </em>4:48</span></div>]]>
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   <pubDate>Tue, 29 Jan 2013 02:38:11 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :  Originally posted by Rational]But...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=58927">Nur_Ilahi</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 28 January 2013 at 6:48pm<br /><br /> <div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br />&#093;But did the <u>One God</u> die?</div><br />Rational, I am so used to Facebook and when I see this words from you, I was looking for the Like Button.  ]]>
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   <pubDate>Mon, 28 Jan 2013 18:48:41 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :    Originally posted by Rational    Originally...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71711">TG12345</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 28 January 2013 at 6:05pm<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />Salaam Alaikum, Rational.<br><br>God both died as the Son and stayed alive as the Father and Holy Spirit.<br></div><br>But did the <u>One God</u> die?<br></div><br><br>He simultaneously died and stayed alive at the same time. This is something us human beings are incapable of doing, much less beginning to understand. Fortunately, God is not one of us.<br><span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by TG12345 - 28 January 2013 at 6:06pm</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Mon, 28 Jan 2013 18:05:59 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :    Originally posted by Rational  Originally...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71711">TG12345</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 28 January 2013 at 5:57pm<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />Quite frankly, I am surprised the Muslim posters here didn't jump in sooner than I did on this one.</div><br>Maybe becasue he asked you TG.<br></div><br><br>True enough. I just thought one of the Muslims here would correct him on that point. Both Muslim and non-Muslim posters have jumped into conversations on this forum that did not involve them. It's what happens on a forum. <img src="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/smileys/smiley1.gif" border="0" align="absmiddle" alt="Smile" /><br><br>Thanks for leaving it for me, though.<br><span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by TG12345 - 28 January 2013 at 6:04pm</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Mon, 28 Jan 2013 17:57:28 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :   Originally posted by Ratio...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71711">TG12345</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 28 January 2013 at 5:56pm<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br />&#1575;&#1604;&#1587;&#1604;&#1575;&#1605; &#1593;&#1604;&#1610;&#1603;&#1605; &#1608;&#1585;&#1581;&#1605;&#1577; &#1575;&#1604;&#1604;&#1607; &#1608;&#1576;&#1585;&#1603;&#1575;&#1578;&#1607;<br></div><br><br>Wa alaikum salaam.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />Whether the Bible is to be trusted or not is another discussion. However, it is clear that according to Christ's words... that are recorded in it... He was claiming to be God.</div><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br />It's not clear to me. Here are more examples:<br><br><b>John 5:30</b><br><font color="#0066CC">"<b>I can of mine own self do nothing</b>: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; <b>because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.</b>"</font><br><br>Clear and explicit.</div><br>Yes. It is also clear and explicit that Jesus made Himself voluntarily inferior to the Father although He was in the form of God.<br><br><b><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br />Revelation 3:12</b><br><font color="#0066CC">"The one who is victorious I will make a pillar in the temple of <b>my God</b>. Never again will they leave it. I will write on them the name of <b>my God</b> and the name of the city of <b>my God</b>, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from <b>my God</b>; and I will also write on them my new name."</font><br><br>To whom was Jesus calling to? Does God have a God?</div><br>Jesus often referred to the Father as His God. God exists as the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.<br><br><b><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br />Matthew 27:46</b><br><font color="#0066CC">"About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli,&#091;a&#093; lema sabachthani?” (which means “<b>My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?</b>”)"</font><br><br>To whom was Jesus calling to? Surely not to Himself?</div><br>He was calling to the Father.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br />You'll probably give me more explanations, because you're committed, and it's hard to let go even when you are faced with hard evidence, even when the language is simple in these verses. Are you 110% convinced with this belief? It was your destiny from God to be a Christian and only He Almighty knows why. But now you're learning and seeking about Muslims, you have an intriguing alternative to what you had before. I only pray that you're giving it a chance.</div><br>I pray every night that God leads Muslims to the truth. I also pray that if I am mistaken about Him, He show me.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br />I don't want to offend, but it's my opinion that the bible can't be trusted. This is not a different discussion, it's the very heart of the discussion.</div><br>Then why are you referring to it to claim Jesus did not say He is God?<br><br><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />Let me ask you a question. Where in the Quran does Allah say that He is not Satan? Where does Muhammad say Allah is not Satan?</font></font></div><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br />Your question doesn't serve the debate. Why are you asking me to prove something I didn't claim? I never claimed such a thing so why are you asking me to prove it? It doesn't work like that.</div><br>You are right, that is a bad example. <br><br>Let me ask you this: Do you believe God is better than Satan?<br><br>If so, please show me a verse that states "Allah is better than Satan".<br><br><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><br><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br /></font></font>Do you see how senseless this challenge is?</font></font></div><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br />I don't. You made a claim, I showed you from the Bible that you're wrong.</div><br>You didn't show from the Bible that I am wrong in stating Jesus is God. Jesus did not say anywhere in the Bible "I am God, worship me", but He said many other things that a person would not say unless he was claiming to be God. <br><br>You have not shown me a verse in the Bible where Jesus said "I am not God, do not worship me".<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br />Don't ask me to prove something I didn't claim. Be a man and take it on the chin. It's ok to do that once in a while. It's a sign of honesty and I think you are.</div><br>You are right, I gave a bad example. Asking you to prove something you didn't claim is definitely not equivalent to you asking me to prove something to you that I did claim.<br><br>Let me use another example then.<br><br>Do you believe Allah is better than Satan?<br><br><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br /></font></font></font></font>If verse 5 could mean anything, then what does it mean? Did Muhammad share glory with God before the world existed?</font></font></div><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br />It could mean anything. And Mohammad (pbuh) never claimed divinity neither did Jesus (pbuh). Not sure why you insist on asking obvious questions.</div><br>You didn't answer my question. <br><br>Did Muhammad claim he shared glory with God before the world existed? Did he claim he will judge the nations and decide who goes to heaven and hell? Did he claim that those who have seen him have seen God, and that he and God are one?<br><br><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br /></font></font></font></font></font></font>I find that to be quite insulting, actually, but as we are debating and I know you are not attacking or insulting me purposefully I'll let it pass.</font></font></div><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br />It wasn't my intention. I'm only sharing my thoughts because you're saying that God is three persons:<br><br><font color="#0066FF"><font color="#000000"><b><font color="#0066FF">(Person) </font></b>God the Father </font></font><b><br></b><font color="#336600"><font color="#000000"><font color="#336600"><b>(Person) </b></font>God the Son</font><b><font color="#000000"> </font></b></font><br><font color="#CC6600"><font color="#000000"><font color="#CC6600"><b>(Person) </b></font>God the Holy Spirit</font> </font><br><br>= <b>One</b> <b>God</b>. When the Son speaks to the Father, He is speaking to Himself, because One God. Something is wrong here surely. This is known as <span ="st"=""><i><u>Multiple Personality Disorder</u></i> (<wbr>MPD).</span> No offence but this is what it seems.<br></div><br>Sorry for misjudging you. I don't believe God has MPD because He speaks to Himself as the three persons.<br><br>Your claim of God having a Multiple Personality Disorder can be also alleged against Islam.<br><br>17:1<br><br><span id="verse_2030__9_c&#111;ntent">Glory to (Allah) Who did take <b>His</b> servant for a Journey by night  from the Sacred Mosque to the farthest Mosque, whose precincts <b>We</b> did bless,- in order that <b>We</b> might show him some of Our Signs: for <b>He</b> is the One Who heareth and seeth (all things).<br><br>http://quran.com/17<br><br>God refers to Himself in this passage both as "We" and "He". Are there two gods? Did God #1 take His servant on a journey from the sacred mosque to the farthest mosque, which was blessed by God #2, who then acknowledges God #1 hears and sees all things?<br><br>Are there 2 Gods or does God have MPD? Or is this the kind of language you believed He used to express Himself?<br><br></span><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br /></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font>What's with the slang? Should I start referring to Muhammad as "Mo"?</font></font><br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br />TG, you shouldn't mock someone for the words they choose to use. People have the freedom of talking the way they like. "Chilling" means relaxing and taking a break. Nothing offensive.</div><br>No, you're right on that one. I say "chilling" all the time, actually usually I say "chillaxing". Usually use it with my friends and students, not during religious debate, but there's nothing wrong with it.<br><br><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br /></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font>Because she did not recognize Him.</font></font></div><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br />S<font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000">o she thought he was the </font></font><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000">gardener</font></font>? God choose to look like a </font></font><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000">gardener</font></font></font></font>? God? Maybe he was holding some gardening tools. Seems strange. And how come all of a sudden no one can recognise Jesus? Why is it that he needs to show his hands and feet to prove it's him? Surely the people knew his face better than anything? More mysteries.</div><br>Why would God not disguise Himself? How do you know His face was uncovered? Jesus' hands and feet were pierced by the nails, seeing them would be proof of His crucifixion. <br></font></font><br><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br /></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font>Because one of the times He tried to do that, people thought He was a spirit.</font></font><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"></div><br></font></font><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br />Didn't God know that He would scare them? Or did God scare them deliberately so that the next time, He can show His feet and hands? And they didn't </font></font><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000">recognise his face? So only when he showed his hands and feet they were able to identify him? </font></font><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000">Really strange!</div><br>Yes, when they saw and touched His hands and feet they were convinced it was Him. Jesus said that those who believe without seeing are the ones who are blessed. He realized they had weak faith, they were human beings.<br></font></font><br><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br /></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font>Like you believe it was His will to send 124,000 prophets to earth even though only one's message according to what your faith teaches would be not corrupted.<font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"></div><br></font></font><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br />This belief is sound, it makes perfect sense.<br>&nbsp;</font></font><br><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font size="2">God sent every prophet with the same message being, <font size="2">w</font>orship one <font size="2">G</font>od and don’t associate any partners with God. <font size="2">They were sent over time and to different people.<font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"> Allah (SWT) <font size="2">set various signs, tasks, examples<font size="2">,</font> <font size="2">lessons to</font> every prophet. They went through many trials and tribulations. Why<font size="2">?</font> For us to benefit and learn. To take them as role models and live by th<font size="2">ei</font>r experiences<font size="2">. That'<font size="2">s why Allah (subhanaho wa ta'ala) gave them h<font size="2">igh status</font>. </font>It's beautiful<font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"> when everything makes sense.</font><br><br><i><font color="#0066CC"><font size="2">"</font></font></i></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><span id="t-13-38" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><i><font color="#0066CC"><span ="ayatext"="">We have sent forth other Messengers before you and given them wives and descendants. Yet none of them could bring a sign except by the permission of Allah. Every term has its Book."</span><span ="ayatext"=""></span></font></i> <span ="ayanumber"="">(<a href="http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.qaribullah/13:38" target="_blank">13:38</a>)<br><br>And if <font size="2">H</font>e Almighty wanted, He could have easily guided everyone from the beginning<font size="2">.<br></font></span></span></span></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font><br><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><span id="t-13-38" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><span ="ayanumber"=""><font size="2"><span id="t-5-48" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><span ="ayatext"=""><i><font color="#0066CC">"Had Allah willed, He could have made you one nation but that He might try you by that which He has bestowed upon you. Race with one another in good works, to Allah you shall all return and He will declare to you what you were at variance."</font></i></span> <span ="ayanumber"="">(<a href="http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.qaribullah/5:48" target="_blank">5:48</a>)</span></span></span><br></font></span></span></span></font></font><br><b>EVALUATION OF THE DIVINE MESSAGES</b><br><font size="2">http://home.swipnet.se/islam/books/islam-mankind/04.htm &#091;/Qu<font size="2">ote&#093;<br><br><font size="2">If God chose not to guide people from the beginning, does this mean it is His will that people would wander off His path?</font><br><br><font size="2">Why was God <font size="2">according to your faith incapable of sending just one messenger and getting His message out the f<font size="2">irst time? Why did He not p<font size="2">reserve <font size="2">all of the boo<font size="2">k<font size="2">s before the Quran? Was He inca<font size="2">pable of making sure their message wo<font size="2">uld<font size="2">n't be lost? Were the prophets <font size="2">He<font size="2"> sent not good or competent enough, so <font size="2">He had to finall<font size="2">y send Muhammad? <br><br><font size="2">How i<font size="2">s it possible that the Jews and Christians<font size="2"> hid <font size="2">t<font size="2">he <font size="2">traits and descriptions of Muhammad in the T<font size="2">orah and Injil, while at the same t<font size="2">ime Christian<font size="2">s and Jews are <font size="2">ordered to look i<font size="2">nto these books<font size="2"> to find <font size="2">him mentioned<font size="2"> there?<br><br><font size="2">Talk about strange and contrad<font size="2">ictory!</font></font><br></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font><br><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br /></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font>I won't speculate on God's mind and what I am about to share is my opinion only, however perhaps one reason why He would choose to make Himself inferior would be to demonstrate to human beings what it means to be humble to God and to sacrifice. If God was able to make Himself humble and to love sacrificially, what excuse have we for not doing so?<font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"></div><br></font></font><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br />Don't you at least suspect that the reason he was </font></font><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000">inferior was because he is not God?</div><br>If He wasn't God, He wouldn't have claimed that those who have seen Him have seen the Father. He also would have rebuked those who worshiped Him. He would have not done and said a lot of things that He both did and said.<br><br></font></font><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br />Because he fears God? Would God fear Himself? Why would he choose to pray to Himself? What is that teaching you, to pray to youself?</div><br>Because He chose to lead by example. In a math classroom, a good teacher does examples with the students and demonstrates how to solve them, even though he knows them by heart.<br><br></font></font><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br />Why didn't he come forth and say "I am your God, so worship me"?</div><br>Because He chose to allow people to come to that conclusion themselves. He helped them by saying things that only God would say.<br><br></font></font><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br />Why would God come among the people to punish Himself? Does He need to do this to show us love?</div><br>God didn't need to do anything. He chose to do them.<br><br></font></font><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br />Is that what you need to believe that God loves you?</div><br>No, I would believe Him regardless. Yet this is what He chose to do for us, and I love Him and am thankful to Him.<br><br></font></font><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br />Why</font></font><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"> didn't he punish and crucify Adam since he is the root of the problem (in your belief)?</div><br>Because He chose to suffer on the cross as Jesus.<br><br></font></font><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000">&#091;QUOTE=Rational&#093;Many problems and unsolved <font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000">mysteries </font></font>with this ideology.</div><br>If you choose to doubt Him and reject what He has done for you, I am sure you will see many problems.</font></font><br><br><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000">&#091;QUOTE=Rational&#093; </font></font>God Almighty has already provided a sufficient lesson about sacrifice when he set that task upon Ibraheem (alaihi as-salaam) and instructed him to kill his only son. And just before Ibraheem (alaihi as-salaam) did, Allah (azza wa jall) stopped him and told him he had passed the test. Ibraheem didn't realize, until after, that Allah (subhanaho wa ta'ala) loves his son more than he did. Through Ibraheem (alaihi as-salaam), Allah taught us a valuable lesson, that we must not live our lifes the way we want, we must sacrifice all our desires in this life and follow the way that Allah intended for us, because He created us, He knows what's best for us, in everything. And if we pass, we win.<br><br><span id="t-4-13" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><span ="ayatext"=""><font color="#0066CC"><i>"Such are the Bounds of Allah. He who obeys Allah and His Messenger, He will admit him to Gardens underneath which rivers flow. That is a great wining."</i></font></span> <span ="ayanumber"="">(<a href="http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.qaribullah/4:13" target="_blank">4:13</a>)</span></span></span><br></div><br>This was a powerful lesson God showed through Abraham. Another powerful lesson was Him showing His love for us by willing to suffer and die for us.<br><br>Looking forward to reading your response. Sorry again for the time it took. My responses will probably take more time since I am getting a bit busy.<br><br>Peace in Christ.<br>]]>
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   <pubDate>Mon, 28 Jan 2013 17:56:27 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :  Originally posted by CaringheartGreetings...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=59438">honeto</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 28 January 2013 at 1:18pm<br /><br /> <div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />Greetings Rational,in reply to yor response to me.  You are welcome. &#091;IMG&#093;smileys/smiley1.gif" align="absmiddle" alt="Smile" /&gt;As regards some of the things in your discussion with TG;My thoughts as I was reading.John 5:30 - "I can of mine own self do nothing"&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Can your arm do anything without your brain?Matthew 27:46 - Have you ever had your arm go dead asleep and wondered where it had gone... why your brain was not responding to your request to make it move?&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Jesus was as the arm of God.These verses only don't make sense to you because you have been taught not to trust them.<blockquote>"Your question doesn't serve the debate."</blockquote>I think that is what TG was demonstrating... that the question you ask... the thing you are asking for, is not a rational thing to be asking.<blockquote>" And how come all of a sudden no one can recognise Jesus? Why is it that he needs to show his hands and feet to prove it's him? Surely the people knew his face better than anything? More mysteries."</blockquote>I will just share with you... I would say, Do not think that Christians do not ask these same questions... I know that I have.  I also accept that I do not have all answers, nor should I expect to.  When has God ever fully revealed Himself?  How could our mind possibly receive the fullness of what God has to offer?  I accept what the Apostles had to say as they went about spreading the word of Jesus.  I accept that, (after having run away in fear for their own lives) they were then convinced enough to die for Jesus and for testimony of Him.   Something tremendous had to have occurred to bring about this change of heart.   I accept that they were obviously believable enough to convince many others, and the belief in Jesus never died but grew and survived these last 2012 years.Salaam,Caringheart</div> <br /><br /><br />Carinheart,<br />a human arm/hand in order to be moved is dependent on the brain as you said, and many more things. God on the  other hand is not dependent on anything. God is free of any needs and God does not depend on any. For God it's easy to get any task done, for Him it is like to say "be" and it is done!<br />Of course, the guidance God sent through the propehts, like health comes through the physicians. God's work is done through His creation. We all are His creations and His servants, some deny that, and to them if they continue to deny till their death, God will show the truth that day and they will not be able to fix it then.<br />Hasan<span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by honeto - 28 January 2013 at 1:44pm</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Mon, 28 Jan 2013 13:18:04 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL : Greetings Rational,No, no contradiction...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=173430#173430</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=69566">Caringheart</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 28 January 2013 at 10:13am<br /><br /><br>Greetings Rational,<br><br>No, no contradiction or confusion. <img src="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/smileys/smiley1.gif" border="0" align="absmiddle" alt="Smile" /><br>I'm not, 'describing Him', I'm giving a human analogy.&nbsp; God controls all.&nbsp; Doesn't the brain control all that the body does?&nbsp; All the parts of the body, are parts of one body, but yet all the parts are controlled&nbsp; by the brain.<br>Christian is just a word that refers to people who follow Jesus.&nbsp; A word that can mean many things to many people.&nbsp;&nbsp; I am simply making a reference to people who follow Jesus, however they may follow Him. (I am usually more careful in choosing my wording.&nbsp; i did not realize you would pick at minutia.) &nbsp;<br>Anyone who reads the Bible would have to ask themselves the same questions that you ask.<br>Just as anyone who would read the qu'ran would have to ask the same questions that I ask...<br>that is, if they are truly seeking after Truth.<br><br>Salaam,<br>Caringheart]]>
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   <pubDate>Mon, 28 Jan 2013 10:13:05 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :                 Originally...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=173422#173422</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71774">Rational</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 28 January 2013 at 5:21am<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />John 5:30 - "I can of mine own self do nothing"<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Can your arm do anything without your brain?<br>Matthew 27:46 - Have you ever had your arm go dead asleep and wondered where it had gone... why your brain was not responding to your request to make it move?<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Jesus was as the arm of God.<br></div><br>I thought you believe that God (Almighty) can do anything? All of a sudden you're <u>describing Him</u> like me? Like Jesus was asleep (the arm) because the father wasn't awake (the brain)? We humans have limitations, Does God have those limitations? Why are you <u>describing Him</u> in the first place? Weren't you the one who said:<br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br /><font size="3"><span lang=""><font face="Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif" size="2">God is not anything we with our human minds can <u>describe</u>.</font></span></font></div><br>^ contradiction and confusion on your part?<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />"Your question doesn't serve the debate."<br>I think that is what TG was demonstrating... that the question you ask... the thing you are asking for, is not a rational thing to be asking.</div><br>Let's make this even more simple. TG's question doesn't serve the debate <u>because</u> he is asking me to prove something I DIDN'T claim. I'm asking him to prove something he DID claim, that Jesus is God and to be worshiped. He is running away from this question because he can't provide any explicit proof from the bible. Because of this he's evading it by asking me to provide something I never said.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />I will just share with you... I would say, Do not think that Christians do not ask these same questions... I know that I have.</div><br>Why are you talking on behalf of Christians? Why are you even talking as a Christian? Christianity is a religion, is it not? You support your believes from the bible, the book that happens to be the umbrella of Christianity, no? Weren't you the one who said:<br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />I have said before that I do not believe in religion.&nbsp; Religion is a thing of man.</div><br>^ contradiction and confusion on your part?<br><span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by Rational - 28 January 2013 at 4:48pm</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Mon, 28 Jan 2013 05:21:00 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :     Originally posted by TG12345Salaam...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=173369#173369</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71774">Rational</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 26 January 2013 at 1:02pm<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />Salaam Alaikum, Rational.<br><br>God both died as the Son and stayed alive as the Father and Holy Spirit.<br></div><br>But did the <u>One God</u> die?<br><span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by Rational - 26 January 2013 at 1:09pm</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Sat, 26 Jan 2013 13:02:09 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :   Originally posted by TG12345Quite...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=173367#173367</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71774">Rational</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 26 January 2013 at 12:34pm<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />Quite frankly, I am surprised the Muslim posters here didn't jump in sooner than I did on this one.</div><br>Maybe becasue he asked you TG.<br>]]>
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   <pubDate>Sat, 26 Jan 2013 12:34:36 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL : Greetings Rational,in reply to...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=173363#173363</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=69566">Caringheart</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 26 January 2013 at 12:10pm<br /><br />Greetings Rational,<br><br>in reply to yor response to me.&nbsp; You are welcome. <img src="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/smileys/smiley1.gif" border="0" align="absmiddle" alt="Smile" /><br><br>As regards some of the things in your discussion with TG;<br>My thoughts as I was reading.<br>John 5:30 - "I can of mine own self do nothing"<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Can your arm do anything without your brain?<br>Matthew 27:46 - Have you ever had your arm go dead asleep and wondered where it had gone... why your brain was not responding to your request to make it move?<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Jesus was as the arm of God.<br>These verses only don't make sense to you because you have been taught not to trust them.<br><br><blockquote>"Your question doesn't serve the debate."<br></blockquote>I think that is what TG was demonstrating... that the question you ask... the thing you are asking for, is not a rational thing to be asking.<br><br><blockquote>" And how come all of a sudden no one can recognise Jesus? Why is it that he needs to show his hands and feet to prove it's him? Surely the people knew his face better than anything? More mysteries."<br></blockquote>I will just share with you... I would say, Do not think that Christians do not ask these same questions... I know that I have.&nbsp; I also accept that I do not have all answers, nor should I expect to.&nbsp; When has God ever fully revealed Himself?&nbsp; How could our mind possibly receive the fullness of what God has to offer?&nbsp; I accept what the Apostles had to say as they went about spreading the word of Jesus.&nbsp; I accept that, (after having run away in fear for their own lives) they were then convinced enough to die for Jesus and for testimony of Him.&nbsp;&nbsp; Something tremendous had to have occurred to bring about this change of heart.&nbsp;&nbsp; I accept that they were obviously believable enough to convince many others, and the belief in Jesus never died but grew and survived these last 2012 years.<br><br>Salaam,<br>Caringheart<br>]]>
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   <pubDate>Sat, 26 Jan 2013 12:10:19 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :                ...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=173362#173362</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71774">Rational</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 26 January 2013 at 11:17am<br /><br />&#1575;&#1604;&#1587;&#1604;&#1575;&#1605; &#1593;&#1604;&#1610;&#1603;&#1605; &#1608;&#1585;&#1581;&#1605;&#1577; &#1575;&#1604;&#1604;&#1607; &#1608;&#1576;&#1585;&#1603;&#1575;&#1578;&#1607;<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />Whether the Bible is to be trusted or not is another discussion. However, it is clear that according to Christ's words... that are recorded in it... He was claiming to be God.</div><br>It's not clear to me. Here are more examples:<br><br><b>John 5:30</b><br><font color="#0066CC">"<b>I can of mine own self do nothing</b>: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is just; <b>because I seek not mine own will, but the will of the Father which hath sent me.</b>"</font><br><br>Clear and explicit.<br><br><b>Revelation 3:12</b><br><font color="#0066CC">"The one who is victorious I will make a pillar in the temple of <b>my God</b>. Never again will they leave it. I will write on them the name of <b>my God</b> and the name of the city of <b>my God</b>, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from <b>my God</b>; and I will also write on them my new name."</font><br><br>To whom was Jesus calling to? Does God have a God? <br><br><b>Matthew 27:46</b><br><font color="#0066CC">"About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli,&#091;a&#093; lema sabachthani?” (which means “<b>My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?</b>”)"</font><br><br>To whom was Jesus calling to? Surely not to Himself?<br><br>You'll probably give me more explanations, because you're committed, and it's hard to let go even when you are faced with hard evidence, even when the language is simple in these verses. Are you 110% convinced with this belief? It was your destiny from God to be a Christian and only He Almighty knows why. But now you're learning and seeking about Muslims, you have an intriguing alternative to what you had before. I only pray that you're giving it a chance.<br><br>I don't want to offend, but it's my opinion that the bible can't be trusted. This is not a different discussion, it's the very heart of the discussion.<br><br><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />Let me ask you a question. Where in the Quran does Allah say that He is not Satan? Where does Muhammad say Allah is not Satan?</font></font></div><br>Your question doesn't serve the debate. Why are you asking me to prove something I didn't claim? I never claimed such a thing so why are you asking me to prove it? It doesn't work like that.<br><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><br><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br /></font></font>Do you see how senseless this challenge is?</font></font></div><br>I don't. You made a claim, I showed you from the Bible that you're wrong. Don't ask me to prove something I didn't claim. Be a man and take it on the chin. It's ok to do that once in a while. It's a sign of honesty and I think you are.<br><br><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br /></font></font></font></font>If verse 5 could mean anything, then what does it mean? Did Muhammad share glory with God before the world existed?</font></font></div><br>It could mean anything. And Mohammad (pbuh) never claimed divinity neither did Jesus (pbuh). Not sure why you insist on asking obvious questions.<br><br><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br /></font></font></font></font></font></font>I find that to be quite insulting, actually, but as we are debating and I know you are not attacking or insulting me purposefully I'll let it pass.</font></font></div><br>It wasn't my intention. I'm only sharing my thoughts because you're saying that God is three persons:<br><br><font color="#0066FF"><font color="#000000"><b><font color="#0066FF">(Person) </font></b>God the Father </font></font><b><br></b><font color="#336600"><font color="#000000"><font color="#336600"><b>(Person) </b></font>God the Son</font><b><font color="#000000"> </font></b></font><br><font color="#CC6600"><font color="#000000"><font color="#CC6600"><b>(Person) </b></font>God the Holy Spirit</font> </font><br><br>= <b>One</b> <b>God</b>. When the Son speaks to the Father, He is speaking to Himself, because One God. Something is wrong here surely. This is known as <span ="st"=""><i><u>Multiple Personality Disorder</u></i> (<wbr>MPD).</span> No offence but this is what it seems.<br><br><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br /></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font>What's with the slang? Should I start referring to Muhammad as "Mo"? </font></font></div><br>TG, you shouldn't mock someone for the words they choose to use. People have the freedom of talking the way they like. "Chilling" means relaxing and taking a break. Nothing offensive.<br><br><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br /></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font>Because she did not recognize Him.</font></font></div><br>S<font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000">o she thought he was the </font></font><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000">gardener</font></font>? God choose to look like a </font></font><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000">gardener</font></font></font></font>? God? Maybe he was holding some gardening tools. Seems strange. And how come all of a sudden no one can recognise Jesus? Why is it that he needs to show his hands and feet to prove it's him? Surely the people knew his face better than anything? More mysteries.<br></font></font><br><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br /></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font>Because one of the times He tried to do that, people thought He was a spirit.</font></font><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"></div><br>Didn't God know that He would scare them? Or did God scare them deliberately so that the next time, He can show His feet and hands? And they didn't </font></font><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000">recognise his face? So only when he showed his hands and feet they were able to identify him? </font></font><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000">Really strange!<br></font></font><br><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br /></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font>Like you believe it was His will to send 124,000 prophets to earth even though only one's message according to what your faith teaches would be not corrupted.<font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"></div><br>This belief is sound, it makes perfect sense.<br>&nbsp;</font></font><br><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font size="2">God sent every prophet with the same message being, <font size="2">w</font>orship one <font size="2">G</font>od and don’t associate any partners with God. <font size="2">They were sent over time and to different people.<font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"> Allah (SWT) <font size="2">set various signs, tasks, examples<font size="2">,</font> <font size="2">lessons to</font> every prophet. They went through many trials and tribulations. Why<font size="2">?</font> For us to benefit and learn. To take them as role models and live by th<font size="2">ei</font>r experiences<font size="2">. That'<font size="2">s why Allah (subhanaho wa ta'ala) gave them h<font size="2">igh status</font>. </font>It's beautiful<font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"> when everything makes sense.</font><br><br><i><font color="#0066CC"><font size="2">"</font></font></i></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><span id="t-13-38" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><i><font color="#0066CC"><span ="ayatext"="">We have sent forth other Messengers before you and given them wives and descendants. Yet none of them could bring a sign except by the permission of Allah. Every term has its Book."</span><span ="ayatext"=""></span></font></i> <span ="ayanumber"="">(<a href="http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.qaribullah/13:38" target="_blank">13:38</a>)<br><br>And if <font size="2">H</font>e Almighty wanted, He could have easily guided everyone from the beginning<font size="2">.<br></font></span></span></span></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font><br><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><span id="t-13-38" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><span ="ayanumber"=""><font size="2"><span id="t-5-48" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><span ="ayatext"=""><i><font color="#0066CC">"Had Allah willed, He could have made you one nation but that He might try you by that which He has bestowed upon you. Race with one another in good works, to Allah you shall all return and He will declare to you what you were at variance."</font></i></span> <span ="ayanumber"="">(<a href="http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.qaribullah/5:48" target="_blank">5:48</a>)</span></span></span><br></font></span></span></span></font></font><br><b>EVALUATION OF THE DIVINE MESSAGES</b><br><font size="2">http://home.swipnet.se/islam/books/islam-mankind/04.htm<br></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font><br><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font size="2"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br /></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font></font>I won't speculate on God's mind and what I am about to share is my opinion only, however perhaps one reason why He would choose to make Himself inferior would be to demonstrate to human beings what it means to be humble to God and to sacrifice. If God was able to make Himself humble and to love sacrificially, what excuse have we for not doing so?<font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"></div><br>Don't you at least suspect that the reason he was </font></font><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000">inferior was because he is not God? Because he fears God? Would God fear Himself? Why would he choose to pray to Himself? What is that teaching you, to pray to youself? Why didn't he come forth and say "I am your God, so worship me"? Why would God come among the people to punish Himself? Does He need to do this to show us love? Is that what you need to believe that God loves you? Why</font></font><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"> didn't he punish and crucify Adam since he is the root of the problem (in your belief)? </font></font><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000">Many problems and unsolved <font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000">mysteries </font></font>with this ideology. </font></font><br><br>God Almighty has already provided a sufficient lesson about sacrifice when he set that task upon Ibraheem (alaihi as-salaam) and instructed him to kill his only son. And just before Ibraheem (alaihi as-salaam) did, Allah (azza wa jall) stopped him and told him he had passed the test. Ibraheem didn't realize, until after, that Allah (subhanaho wa ta'ala) loves his son more than he did. Through Ibraheem (alaihi as-salaam), Allah taught us a valuable lesson, that we must not live our lifes the way we want, we must sacrifice all our desires in this life and follow the way that Allah intended for us, because He created us, He knows what's best for us, in everything. And if we pass, we win.<br><br><span id="t-4-13" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><span ="ayatext"=""><font color="#0066CC"><i>"Such are the Bounds of Allah. He who obeys Allah and His Messenger, He will admit him to Gardens underneath which rivers flow. That is a great wining."</i></font></span> <span ="ayanumber"="">(<a href="http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.qaribullah/4:13" target="_blank">4:13</a>)</span></span></span><br><span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by Rational - 26 January 2013 at 3:07pm</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Sat, 26 Jan 2013 11:17:54 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :   Originally posted by Caringheart  Originally...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71774">Rational</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 26 January 2013 at 2:51am<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br /><br>I want to know, Did the ONE God die?<br></div><br><br>Greetings Rational,<br><br>No, God is Spirit.&nbsp; Spirit does not die.<br></div><br>Thank you Caringheart.<br>]]>
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   <pubDate>Sat, 26 Jan 2013 02:51:07 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :   Originally posted by Abu Loren  For...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=173350#173350</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71711">TG12345</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 25 January 2013 at 9:32pm<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Abu Loren</strong></em><br /><br />For TG12345<div>&nbsp;</div><div><span id="verse_2197__6_c&#111;ntent"><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-line-height-alt: 13.5pt;" ="ms&#111;normal"=""><span style="font-family: &quot;Arial Narrow&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; font-size: 16pt; mso-fareast-font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;; mso-bidi-font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;; mso-ansi-: EN;" lang="EN">Sahih International<!--?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /--><o:p></o:p></span></p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 13.5pt;" ="ms&#111;normal"=""><span style="font-family: &quot;Arial Narrow&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; font-size: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;; mso-bidi-font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;; mso-ansi-: EN;" lang="EN"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt;" ="ms&#111;normal"=""><span style="line-height: 115%; font-family: &quot;Arial Narrow&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; font-size: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;; mso-bidi-font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;; mso-ansi-: EN;" lang="EN"><font color="#009900"><strong><em>And We havecertainly diversified in this Qur'an for the people from every &#091;kind of&#093;example; but man has ever been, most of anything, &#091;prone to&#093; dispute.<o:p></o:p></em></strong></font></span></p><font color="#009900" face="Times New Roman" size="3"><strong><em></em></strong></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt;" ="ms&#111;normal"=""><font color="#009900"><strong><em><span style="line-height: 115%; font-family: &quot;Arial Narrow&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;" lang="EN">And nothing hasprevented the people from believing when guidance came to them and from askingforgiveness of their Lord except that there &#091;must&#093; befall them the &#091;accustomed&#093;precedent of the former peoples or that the punishment should come &#091;directly&#093;before them.</span><o:p></o:p></em></strong></font></p><font color="#009900" face="Times New Roman" size="3"><strong><em></em></strong></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt;" ="ms&#111;normal"=""><font color="#009900"><strong><em><span style="line-height: 115%; font-family: &quot;Arial Narrow&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;" lang="EN">And We send notthe messengers except as bringers of good tidings and warners. And those whodisbelieve dispute by &#091;using&#093; falsehood to &#091;attempt to&#093; invalidate thereby thetruth and have taken My verses, and that of which they are warned, in ridicule.</span><o:p></o:p></em></strong></font></p><font color="#009900" face="Times New Roman" size="3"><strong><em></em></strong></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt;" ="ms&#111;normal"=""><span style="line-height: 115%; font-family: &quot;Arial Narrow&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;" lang="EN"><font color="#009900"><strong><em>And who is moreunjust than one who is reminded of the verses of his Lord but turns away fromthem and forgets what his hands have put forth? Indeed, We have placed overtheir hearts coverings, lest they understand it, and in their ears deafness.And if you invite them to guidance - they will never be guided, then - ever.</em></strong></font></span><o:p></o:p></p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt;" ="ms&#111;normal"=""><span style="line-height: 115%; font-family: &quot;Georgia&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;; font-size: 13.5pt; mso-ansi-: EN;" lang="EN">18:54-57</span></p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"></font></span></div></div><br><br>To Abu Loren<br><br><b><font size="3">Romans 5:1,2</font></b><br><br><i><b><span ="text Rom-5-1">Therefore, since we have been justified by faith, we<a href="&quot;#fen-ESV-28033a&quot;" target="_blank">a</a>&#093;">&#091;<a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%205&amp;versi&#111;n=ESV#fen-ESV-28033a" target="_blank">a</a>&#093;</sup> have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ.</span> <span id="en-ESV-28034" ="text Rom-5-2"><sup ="versenum">2&nbsp;</sup>Through him we have also obtained access by faith<a href="&quot;#fen-ESV-28034b&quot;" target="_blank">b</a>&#093;">&#091;<a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%205&amp;versi&#111;n=ESV#fen-ESV-28034b" target="_blank">b</a>&#093;</sup> into this grace in which we stand, and we<a href="&quot;#fen-ESV-28034c&quot;" target="_blank">c</a>&#093;">&#091;<a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%205&amp;versi&#111;n=ESV#fen-ESV-28034c" target="_blank">c</a>&#093;</sup> rejoice<a href="&quot;#fen-ESV-28034d&quot;" target="_blank">d</a>&#093;">&#091;<a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans%205&amp;versi&#111;n=ESV#fen-ESV-28034d" target="_blank">d</a>&#093;</sup> in hope of the glory of God.</span></b></i><br><br><br>I pray that one day you find this peace also. <br>]]>
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   <pubDate>Fri, 25 Jan 2013 21:32:50 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :   Originally posted by EoahPosted...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71711">TG12345</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 25 January 2013 at 7:36pm<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Eoah</strong></em><br /><br /><b>Posted by TG12345:<br><br></b><i>"Alaikum Salaam Eoah,<br><br>You just said the Holy Spirit is God almighty. Do you believe that the Father is God also? You believe God is one, yet you believe He exists as the Father and the Holy Spirit, do you not? Why then is it impossible for Him to be one and exist as the Father, Son and Holy Spirit?"<br><br></i>Because the Son is NOT God and the ideology of trinity is NOT in the Bible:&nbsp; Yes, I acknowledge the Father, Son and the Holy Ghost exist in the Bible, but when these 3 are exploited by Satan, through the council of Nicea, into 3 Gods. Now that is a heresy that is an insult to God and his commandments!</div><br>Salaam alaikum, Eoah. May the peace of Christ be with you.<br><br>The council of Nicae does not teach there are three gods, but that God exists as the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. This is also what the Bible teaches.<br><br>If believing that the Father, Son, Holy Spirit = one God according to you means belief in three gods, then using your logic, you stating that the Father is God and the Holy Spirit is God means you believe in two Gods. Do you? According to you is the Father God #1 and the Holy Spirit God #2? Are you a polytheist?<br><br>If not, then what makes you think believing God exists as a trinity makes one a heretic?<br><br><i><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Eoah</strong></em><br /><br />Do you know that he denied the crucifixion of Jesus?<br></i><br>No.&nbsp; Please show me the verses please.&nbsp; I do in fact believe that the crucifixion happened.</div><br><br>You want to see the verse where Muhammad denied the crucifixion?<br><br>Quite frankly, I am surprised the Muslim posters here didn't jump in sooner than I did on this one.<br><br>Here you go:<br><br><font size="3">4:157<br></font><i><br><span id="verse_650__6_c&#111;ntent">And  &#091;for&#093;  their  saying,  "Indeed,  we  have  killed  the  Messiah,  Jesus,  the  son  of  Mary,  the messenger  of Allah ."  And  they  did  not  kill  him,  nor  did  they  crucify  him;  but  &#091;another&#093; was  made  to  resemble  him  to  them.  And  indeed,  those  who  differ  over  it  are  in  doubt about  it.  They  have  no  knowledge  of  it  except  the  following  of  assumption.  And  they did  not  kill  him,  for  certain.</span></i><br><br>http://quran.com/4<br><br>According to Muhammad (or whoever is the author of the Quran), not only Jesus was not crucified, but those who are "in doubt" about another person made to resemble Jesus "have no knowledge". That basically includes me and you, and every other Christian (as well as many non-Christians) who know He was crucified.<br><br>Given that you believe Jesus was crucified and that Muhammad clearly stated that He wasn't, do you still believe him to have been a prophet and is he your spiritual role model- even though he denied what Christ did for us on the cross?<br><br><i><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Eoah</strong></em><br /><br /></i>&nbsp; And if you want to judge me as being a non Christian, that is your opinion.&nbsp; But, I know in my heart what I am and God can see in my heart what I am.&nbsp; I don't need your permission to be a Christian.<br></div><br><br>You used some lovely terminology to describe those of us who believe in what the Bible says, that Jesus is God (your words were "Jesus Idol Worshipers", to be exact). <br><br>Personally, I don't believe you are a Christian. I don't judge you for it. I don't even hold you in contempt, like you hold in contempt Christians who believe He is God. <br><br>I pray that one day you do accept His divinity.<br>]]>
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   <pubDate>Fri, 25 Jan 2013 19:36:25 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :   Originally posted by Ratio...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=173342#173342</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71711">TG12345</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 25 January 2013 at 7:21pm<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br />TG12345 and Caringheart, <br><br>When I asked about God dying (in your belief), TG initially said that God died temporarily and Caringheart said that God didn't die. After that, you both gave a similar answer, that the Son died, the Father and the Holy Spirit did not.<br><br>Summary:<br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />So while <u>one</u> of the persons of the Trinity died, the other <u>two</u> did not. <u>God both died and was alive at the same time</u>.</div><br>I asked, "If He died who brought Him back?", TG said:<br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />He was raised by God the Father, the Holy Spirit, and by Himself.</div><br>You say you worship ONE God. <br><br>I want to know, Did the ONE God die?<br></div><br><br>Salaam Alaikum, Rational.<br><br>God both died as the Son and stayed alive as the Father and Holy Spirit.<br>]]>
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   <pubDate>Fri, 25 Jan 2013 19:21:54 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :   Originally posted by Ratio...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=173341#173341</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71711">TG12345</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 25 January 2013 at 7:20pm<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br />&#1575;&#1604;&#1587;&#1604;&#1575;&#1605; &#1593;&#1604;&#1610;&#1603;&#1605; &#1608;&#1585;&#1581;&#1605;&#1577; &#1575;&#1604;&#1604;&#1607; &#1608;&#1576;&#1585;&#1603;&#1575;&#1578;&#1607;<br></div><br>Peace to you also.<br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />Why didn't Muhammad or any other prophet say those who have seen him have seen Allah?<br><br>Why didn't Muhammad or any other prophet claim they will be judging the nations and deciding who will go to heaven and who will go to hell?<br><br>Why didn't Muhammad or any other prophet say that He and God are one?<br></div><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br />Because they are not God, including Jesus (alayhi assalam). Jesus did not claim divinity. If you have read that in the Bible in <u>other words</u>, then either you have misunderstood the verse due to brainwashing or it is not his words. The Bible is not to be trusted. Allah did not send Himself to live among His creation to "allow" them to kill Him. Take a step back and think about it.</div><br>Whether the Bible is to be trusted or not is another discussion. However, it is clear that according to Christ's words... that are recorded in it... He was claiming to be God.<br><br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />Jesus was worshiped <u>several</u> times, and not once did He rebuke those who were worshiping Him.</div><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br />Let's try this one more time. Please show me in the Bible where Jesus said "worship me" or the father said "worship Jesus" or someone else said "I worship Jesus". In those words, not in <u>other words</u>. I want to see the words "Worship" and "Jesus". <font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000">Good luck with that.</div><br>Jesus did not say "worship me" in the Bible, and neither did the Father say to worship Christ. That does not disprove the fact that He was worshiped and that He said things about Himself that indicated He is God.<br><br>Let me ask you a question. Where in the Quran does Allah say that He is not Satan? Where does Muhammad say Allah is not Satan?<br><br>If this exact phrase is not found (I want to see the words "Allah" and "Satan" with "not" between them), does that mean that Allah is Satan?<br><br>Do you see how senseless this challenge is?<br><br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />John 17:1-5<br><br>When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you, 2&nbsp;since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him. 3&nbsp;And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. 4&nbsp;I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work that you gave me to do. 5&nbsp;And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.<br><br>Would a messenger of God have had glory with God before the world came into existence? Did Muhammad share God's glory... before he was even born? Before the world came into being?<br></div><br></font></font><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br />Read verses John 17:1-4, it's obvious that a messenger is praying to his Lord, his God. The context from 1-4 clearly refutes your claims. Verse 5 could mean anything, so again nothing concrete.</div><br>If verse 5 could mean anything, then what does it mean? Did Muhammad share glory with God before the world existed?<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />Jesus while on earth was man as well as God. <u>As man, He called the Father His God</u>.<br></div><br></font></font><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br /></font></font>You're saying that God is suffering from schizophrenia. Astakfur Allah</div><br>I find that to be quite insulting, actually, but as we are debating and I know you are not attacking or insulting me purposefully I'll let it pass.<br><br>God does not suffer schizophrenia. Saying He is schizophrenic because as Jesus (the Son) He called Himself (the Father) God isn't different from saying that according to Islam God is incompetent since of the 124,000 messengers He sent only one's message came through.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />I find it interesting that you use this verse to prove your point, as it contradicts what the Quran teaches about Jesus not being the Son of God, and about Christians not being His children.</div><br></font></font><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><br></font></font><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br /></font></font></font></font>I didn't share my opinion on this verse. If you take out the portion with "father", you still have the same problem. It serves as evidence against the idea that Jesus is God.</div><br>But the verse does say Father. You can't take it out without changing what it said.<br><br>I already explained why Jesus referred to the Father as God.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />Jesus was both man and God while on earth.</div><br></font></font><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><br></font></font><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br /></font></font></font></font>Jesus was man and God down here, while God the father was chilling up there?</div><br>What's with the slang? Should I start referring to Muhammad as "Mo"? <br><br>To answer your question, yes. God existed simultaneously as Jesus and was fully man and God at the same time, while also existing as the Father in heaven and the Holy Spirit?<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />"Supposing him to be the gardener"</div><br></font></font><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br /></font></font></font></font></font></font>Why did she think that Jesus (alyhi assalam) was the "gardener"?</div><br>Because she did not recognize Him.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />"When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord"<br>“Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side. Do not disbelieve, but believe.”</div><br></font></font><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br /></font></font></font></font></font></font>Why didn't he reveal his face instead? How do people best recognise one another, by their faces or their hands/nails/sides?&nbsp;</div><br><br>Because one of the times He tried to do that, people thought He was a spirit.<br><br>This is detailed in Luke<br><br></font></font><b><font size="3">Luke 24:36-42</font></b><br><p><i><span ="text Luke-24-36"><sup ="versenum">36&nbsp;</sup>As they were talking about these things, Jesus himself stood among them, and said to them, <span ="woj">“Peace to you!”</span></span> <span id="en-ESV-26018" ="text Luke-24-37"><sup ="versenum">37&nbsp;</sup>But they were startled and frightened and thought they saw a spirit.</span> <span id="en-ESV-26019" ="text Luke-24-38"><sup ="versenum">38&nbsp;</sup>And he said to them, <span ="woj">“Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts?</span></span> <span id="en-ESV-26020" ="text Luke-24-39"><span ="woj"><sup ="versenum">39&nbsp;</sup>See my hands and my feet, that it is I myself. Touch me, and see. For a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have.”</span></span> <span id="en-ESV-26021" ="text Luke-24-40"><sup ="versenum">40&nbsp;</sup>And when he had said this, he showed them his hands and his feet.</span> <span id="en-ESV-26022" ="text Luke-24-41"><sup ="versenum">41&nbsp;</sup>And while they still disbelieved for joy and were marveling, he said to them, <span ="woj">“Have you anything here to eat?”</span></span> <span id="en-ESV-26023" ="text Luke-24-42"><sup ="versenum">42&nbsp;</sup>They gave him a piece of broiled fish,<a href="&quot;#fen-ESV-26023b&quot;" target="_blank">b</a>&#093;">&#091;<a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=luke%2024&amp;versi&#111;n=ESV#fen-ESV-26023b" target="_blank">b</a>&#093;</sup></span> <span id="en-ESV-26024" ="text Luke-24-43"><sup ="versenum">43&nbsp;</sup>and he took it and ate before them.</span></i></p><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000">When Jesus appeared to some of His disciples, they thought they had seen a spirit. He told them to touch His hands and feet.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />If you took the time to read the Bible in its entirety, you would understand that Jesus, while on earth, <u>made Himself voluntarily inferior to the Father</u>.</div><br></font></font><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br /></font></font>The question remains, why?<br></font></font></div><br><br>It was God's will to do so. <br><br>Like you believe it was His will to send 124,000 prophets to earth even though only one's message according to what your faith teaches would be not corrupted.<br><br>I won't speculate on God's mind and what I am about to share is my opinion only, however perhaps one reason why He would choose to make Himself inferior would be to demonstrate to human beings what it means to be humble to God and to sacrifice. If God was able to make Himself humble and to love sacrificially, what excuse have we for not doing so?<br>]]>
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   <pubDate>Fri, 25 Jan 2013 19:20:11 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :   Originally posted by Ratio...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=173326#173326</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=69566">Caringheart</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 25 January 2013 at 7:46am<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br /><br>I want to know, Did the ONE God die?<br></div><br><br>Greetings Rational,<br><br>No, God is Spirit.&nbsp; Spirit does not die.<br>I find it impossible to explain Father, Son and Holy Ghost being One.&nbsp; I believe God has to reveal it to you and your heart has to be open before God can reveal it.<br>It would be like, my hand could die because of gangrene, but I would still live.&nbsp; A part of me can die while I continue to exist.<br>Jesus was only the flesh part of God the undescribable, entity.<br><br>Salaam,<br>Caringheart<br>]]>
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   <pubDate>Fri, 25 Jan 2013 07:46:26 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL : Hi Eoah,Quote: Personally, I...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=173323#173323</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71448">Placid</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 25 January 2013 at 7:25am<br /><br />Hi Eoah,<br /><br />Quote: Personally, I don't need miracles to believe in Jesus:  All I need is his life and his teachings.  I don't want to argue whether the miracles happened or not.  But my own personal miracle was when I became a Christian at the age of 10 years old and experianced the Holy Spirit for the first time.  It was totally shocking in its unexpectedness; I had no idea I could feel so much joy.  I was actually asked: "Do you want  to ask Jesus to come into your life?"  At the time I just assumed that "Getting Jesus into my life" was just a manner of speaking that actually mean't "-getting God into my life through acknowledging Jesus as my saviour".  At the time, it never occurred to me that Christians actually worshipped some sort of "Jesus Deity" -  That would be soooo against the 10 commandments!!!  Don't even think about it!<br />I grew up where when you go to church they say: "In the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost" and that it was called the 'Trinity'.  And, let's face it: I believe in the Father; I believe in the Son; I believe in the Holy Ghost and I still do.  But, if someone had told me that the Trinity was believing in 3 Gods in 1 God....that is a despicable Blasphemy against God no matter how many Christians believed in it!<br /><br />Response: --- These early life experiences are genuine and in making the decision to accept Jesus as Savior, --- is what the Scripture teaches, --- And the experience of Joy is the Holy Spirit that comes to dwell within, and will be our Guide through life.<br />--- If we rebel against God’s guidance through His Holy Spirit, we can ‘quiet’ this voice of guidance, and go back to following our own conscience.<br /><br />However, as we grow up going to Church, or Churches, we learn about the Word of God, and how the Scriptures apply to our lives.<br /><br />Nevertheless, we are taught some doctrines (teaching) like the trinity, --- which is not taught in the Scriptures, but was decided in a Church meeting in 325 AD. --- It was a faulty doctrine from the beginning, and in most Churches it has found its way in as a ‘tradition,’ --- but it causes all the controversy that continues on this forum.<br />--- I don’t have an argument with what others believe because that is the way they have learned it, but they have difficulty in explaining their belief.<br /> <br />While Christians praise and glorify Jesus, our worship is to God through Jesus as it says in John 5:<br />24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him (God) who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.”<br /><br />And Jesus said we are to ‘Pray to the Father, in Jesus’ name.’ --- We are not taught to worship Jesus, but to worship God. --- Nor are we to follow any ‘Unitarian’ teaching which is unscriptural, --- but while we keep reading the Scriptures and following the teachings of Jesus, our Savior and Role Model, --- and asking God to guide us by His Holy Spirit, --- then we will be led rightly, will we not? <br />And we can know the Joy that came with our first encounter when we were young.<br /><br />Jesus was CALLED the Son of God in Luke 1:<br />35  And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be CALLED the Son of God. <br />--- (I capitalized CALLED to emphasize that Jesus was not another God.) <br />--- But as John said in 1:<br />1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, <br />2 He was in the beginning with God.<br />3  All things were made through Him,<br />10 He (The Word) was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.<br />14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.<br /><br />This is what I understand:<br />Through the virgin birth Jesus was the Perfect man, --- and the Word (Logos), ‘that was in the beginning with God’ came down to indwell Jesus in a human body. --- So Jesus (meaning Savior) had a human body, and Christ (meaning Messiah) was the Word that came down from heaven to indwell Him, so this ‘Unique’ One was the Manifestation of God in the world.<br /><br /><br />Placid<br /><br />]]>
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   <pubDate>Fri, 25 Jan 2013 07:25:16 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :   For Caringheart  Sahih International    And...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=173316#173316</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=70404">Abu Loren</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 25 January 2013 at 3:16am<br /><br />For Caringheart<div>&nbsp;</div><div><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-line-height-alt: 13.5pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><span style='font-family: "Arial Narrow","sans-serif"; font-size: 16pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-: EN;' lang="EN">Sahih International<?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p></span></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 13.5pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><span style='font-family: "Arial Narrow","sans-serif"; font-size: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-: EN;' lang="EN"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><span style='line-height: 115%; font-family: "Arial Narrow","sans-serif"; font-size: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-: EN;' lang="EN"><font color="#ff0000"><strong><em>And We willpresent Hell that Day to the Disbelievers, on display –<o:p></o:p></em></strong></font></span></p><font color="#ff0000" size="3" face="Times New Roman"><strong><em></em></strong></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><font color="#ff0000"><strong><em><span style='line-height: 115%; font-family: "Arial Narrow","sans-serif"; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;' lang="EN">Those whose eyeshad been within a cover &#091;removed&#093; from My remembrance, and they were not ableto hear.</span><o:p></o:p></em></strong></font></p><font color="#ff0000" size="3" face="Times New Roman"><strong><em></em></strong></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><font color="#ff0000"><strong><em><span style='line-height: 115%; font-family: "Arial Narrow","sans-serif"; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;' lang="EN">Then do those whodisbelieve think that they can take My servants instead of Me as allies?Indeed, We have prepared Hell for the disbelievers as a lodging.</span><o:p></o:p></em></strong></font></p><font color="#ff0000" size="3" face="Times New Roman"><strong><em></em></strong></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><font color="#ff0000"><strong><em><span style='line-height: 115%; font-family: "Arial Narrow","sans-serif"; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;' lang="EN">Say, &#091;OMuhammad&#093;, "Shall we &#091;believers&#093; inform you of the greatest losers as to&#091;their&#093; deeds?</span><o:p></o:p></em></strong></font></p><font color="#ff0000" size="3" face="Times New Roman"><strong><em></em></strong></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><font color="#ff0000"><strong><em><span style='line-height: 115%; font-family: "Arial Narrow","sans-serif"; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;' lang="EN">&#091;They are&#093; thosewhose effort is lost in worldly life, while they think that they are doing wellin work."</span><o:p></o:p></em></strong></font></p><font color="#ff0000" size="3" face="Times New Roman"><strong><em></em></strong></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><font color="#ff0000"><strong><em><span style='line-height: 115%; font-family: "Arial Narrow","sans-serif"; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;' lang="EN">Those are theones who disbelieve in the verses of their Lord and in &#091;their&#093; meeting Him, sotheir deeds have become worthless; and We will not assign to them on the Day ofResurrection any importance.</span><o:p></o:p></em></strong></font></p><font color="#ff0000" size="3" face="Times New Roman"><strong><em></em></strong></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><span style='line-height: 115%; font-family: "Arial Narrow","sans-serif"; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;' lang="EN"><font color="#ff0000"><strong><em>That is theirrecompense - Hell - for what they denied and &#091;because&#093; they took My signs andMy messengers in ridicule.</em></strong></font></span><o:p></o:p></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><span style='line-height: 115%; font-family: "Georgia","serif"; font-size: 13.5pt; mso-ansi-: EN;' lang="EN">18:100-106</span></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font></div>]]>
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   <pubDate>Fri, 25 Jan 2013 03:16:40 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :   For TG12345  Sahih International    And...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=173315#173315</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=70404">Abu Loren</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 25 January 2013 at 3:07am<br /><br />For TG12345<div>&nbsp;</div><div><span id="verse_2197__6_c&#111;ntent"><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-line-height-alt: 13.5pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><span style='font-family: "Arial Narrow","sans-serif"; font-size: 16pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-: EN;' lang="EN">Sahih International<?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p></span></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 13.5pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><span style='font-family: "Arial Narrow","sans-serif"; font-size: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-: EN;' lang="EN"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><span style='line-height: 115%; font-family: "Arial Narrow","sans-serif"; font-size: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-: EN;' lang="EN"><font color="#009900"><strong><em>And We havecertainly diversified in this Qur'an for the people from every &#091;kind of&#093;example; but man has ever been, most of anything, &#091;prone to&#093; dispute.<o:p></o:p></em></strong></font></span></p><font color="#009900" size="3" face="Times New Roman"><strong><em></em></strong></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><font color="#009900"><strong><em><span style='line-height: 115%; font-family: "Arial Narrow","sans-serif"; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;' lang="EN">And nothing hasprevented the people from believing when guidance came to them and from askingforgiveness of their Lord except that there &#091;must&#093; befall them the &#091;accustomed&#093;precedent of the former peoples or that the punishment should come &#091;directly&#093;before them.</span><o:p></o:p></em></strong></font></p><font color="#009900" size="3" face="Times New Roman"><strong><em></em></strong></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><font color="#009900"><strong><em><span style='line-height: 115%; font-family: "Arial Narrow","sans-serif"; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;' lang="EN">And We send notthe messengers except as bringers of good tidings and warners. And those whodisbelieve dispute by &#091;using&#093; falsehood to &#091;attempt to&#093; invalidate thereby thetruth and have taken My verses, and that of which they are warned, in ridicule.</span><o:p></o:p></em></strong></font></p><font color="#009900" size="3" face="Times New Roman"><strong><em></em></strong></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><span style='line-height: 115%; font-family: "Arial Narrow","sans-serif"; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;' lang="EN"><font color="#009900"><strong><em>And who is moreunjust than one who is reminded of the verses of his Lord but turns away fromthem and forgets what his hands have put forth? Indeed, We have placed overtheir hearts coverings, lest they understand it, and in their ears deafness.And if you invite them to guidance - they will never be guided, then - ever.</em></strong></font></span><o:p></o:p></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><span style='line-height: 115%; font-family: "Georgia","serif"; font-size: 13.5pt; mso-ansi-: EN;' lang="EN">18:54-57</span></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font></span></div>]]>
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   <pubDate>Fri, 25 Jan 2013 03:07:33 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :                   TG12345...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=173300#173300</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71774">Rational</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 24 January 2013 at 8:01pm<br /><br />TG12345 and Caringheart, <br><br>When I asked about God dying (in your belief), TG initially said that God died temporarily and Caringheart said that God didn't die. After that, you both gave a similar answer, that the Son died, the Father and the Holy Spirit did not.<br><br>Summary:<br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />So while <u>one</u> of the persons of the Trinity died, the other <u>two</u> did not. <u>God both died and was alive at the same time</u>.</div><br>I asked, "If He died who brought Him back?", TG said:<br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />He was raised by God the Father, the Holy Spirit, and by Himself.</div><br>You say you worship ONE God. <br><br>I want to know, Did the ONE God die?<br><span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by Rational - 24 January 2013 at 11:10pm</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Thu, 24 Jan 2013 20:01:12 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :   &amp;#1575;&amp;#1604;&amp;#1587;&amp;#1604;&amp;#1575;&amp;#1605;...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=173298#173298</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71774">Rational</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 24 January 2013 at 7:33pm<br /><br />&#1575;&#1604;&#1587;&#1604;&#1575;&#1605; &#1593;&#1604;&#1610;&#1603;&#1605; &#1608;&#1585;&#1581;&#1605;&#1577; &#1575;&#1604;&#1604;&#1607; &#1608;&#1576;&#1585;&#1603;&#1575;&#1578;&#1607;<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />Why didn't Muhammad or any other prophet say those who have seen him have seen Allah?<br><br>Why didn't Muhammad or any other prophet claim they will be judging the nations and deciding who will go to heaven and who will go to hell?<br><br>Why didn't Muhammad or any other prophet say that He and God are one?<br></div><br>Because they are not God, including Jesus (alayhi assalam). Jesus did not claim divinity. If you have read that in the Bible in <u>other words</u>, then either you have misunderstood the verse due to brainwashing or it is not his words. The Bible is not to be trusted. Allah did not send Himself to live among His creation to "allow" them to kill Him. Take a step back and think about it.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />Jesus was worshiped <u>several</u> times, and not once did He rebuke those who were worshiping Him.</div><br>Let's try this one more time. Please show me in the Bible where Jesus said "worship me" or the father said "worship Jesus" or someone else said "I worship Jesus". In those words, not in <u>other words</u>. I want to see the words "Worship" and "Jesus". <font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000">Good luck with that.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />John 17:1-5<br><br>When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, “Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you, 2&nbsp;since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him. 3&nbsp;And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent. 4&nbsp;I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work that you gave me to do. 5&nbsp;And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.<br><br>Would a messenger of God have had glory with God before the world came into existence? Did Muhammad share God's glory... before he was even born? Before the world came into being?<br></div><br>Read verses John 17:1-4, it's obvious that a messenger is praying to his Lord, his God. The context from 1-4 clearly refutes your claims. Verse 5 could mean anything, so again nothing concrete.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />Jesus while on earth was man as well as God. <u>As man, He called the Father His God</u>.<br></div><br>You're saying that God is suffering from schizophrenia. Astakfur Allah<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />I find it interesting that you use this verse to prove your point, as it contradicts what the Quran teaches about Jesus not being the Son of God, and about Christians not being His children.</div><br>I didn't share my opinion on this verse. If you take out the portion with "father", you still have the same problem. It serves as evidence against the idea that Jesus is God.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />Jesus was both man and God while on earth.</div><br>Jesus was man and God down here, while God the father was chilling up there?<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />"Supposing him to be the gardener"</div><br>Why did she think that Jesus (alyhi assalam) was the "gardener"?<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />"When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord"<br>“Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side. Do not disbelieve, but believe.”</div><br>Why didn't he reveal his face instead? How do people best recognise one another, by their faces or their hands/nails/sides? <br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />If you took the time to read the Bible in its entirety, you would understand that Jesus, while on earth, <u>made Himself voluntarily inferior to the Father</u>.</div><br>The question remains, why?<br></font></font><span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by Rational - 24 January 2013 at 8:37pm</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Thu, 24 Jan 2013 19:33:23 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :   Originally posted by Ratio...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=173258#173258</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71711">TG12345</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 24 January 2013 at 4:50am<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br />&#1575;&#1604;&#1587;&#1604;&#1575;&#1605; &#1593;&#1604;&#1610;&#1603;&#1605; &#1608;&#1585;&#1581;&#1605;&#1577; &#1575;&#1604;&#1604;&#1607; &#1608;&#1576;&#1585;&#1603;&#1575;&#1578;&#1607;<br></div><br>Wa alaikum salaam.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />You asked me to show you where Jesus "I am God, worship me". I showed you things that He said that no other person would say unless He was claiming to be God.</div><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br />Yes I did ask you that. I read those versus very thoroughly. They did not convince me that I should worship Jesus (pbuh). In fact, they lean towards him being a man dependant on God, because he constantly relies on the father when he speaks and identifies the father as his superior, and God does not have a superior. Jesus does not explicitly say "I am God" or anything close to that, and he does not say "Worship me" or anything close to that. God (Almighty) has always been very explicit when identifying Himself, He explicitly declares and glorifies Himself as God and to be worshiped. He (Almighty) wants to be known. Jesus on the other hand never did this because if he was God, he would have made it straightforward for us to recognise him as God. Instead, we're disputing this because the Bible doesn't do justice to your claim that he is God. You are depending on implicit statements that don't conclusively prove that he is God, you even said it yourself <i>"God However, He did make it very clear He is God in <u><b>other words</b></u>."</i> Exactly my point, why is God using <u>other words</u> to tell us he is God? Those <u>other words</u> could mean God to you, man to me. They are not concrete. If he was indeed God, he would have been absolutely clear about his claim to be God.</div><br>If these other words mean He is saying He is only a man, then again, let me ask you:<br><br>Why didn't Muhammad or any other prophet say those who have seen him have seen Allah?<br><br>Why didn't Muhammad or any other prophet claim they will be judging the nations and deciding who will go to heaven and who will go to hell?<br><br>Why didn't Muhammad or any other prophet say that He and God are one?<br><br>If according to you, these were just "implicit statements", then surely there would have been other prophets who would have said such things.<br><br>There weren't. They were all merely human beings. Jesus was much more than that.<br><br>Jesus was worshiped several times, and not once did He rebuke those who were worshiping Him. One would think that if He was not God but merely a man, He would have told the people worshiping Him to worship God alone. I am sure that is what Muhammad would have done, wouldn't he?<br><br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />Let's see what Jesus (pbuh) said, explicitly:<br><br><b>John 17:3</b><br><font color="#0066CC">"Now this is eternal life:<b> that they know</b> <b>you</b>, <b>the only true God</b>, and <b>Jesus Christ, whom you have sent</b>"</font><br><br>Here a <u>messenger</u> is talking to <u>God</u>. Explicit and clear. A Muslim accepts wholeheartedly that this verse is the words of Jesus (pbuh) because it's identical to the first pillar of Islam, the Shahada, which every muslim declares:<br><br><font color="#0066CC">"<b>There is no God but Allah</b> and <b>Muhammad is His messenger</b>"<br><br><font color="#000000">Two messengers worshiping the same One God.</div><br>Let's look at some of the context of the passage, and then tell me if you still think He was merely a messenger.<br><br></font></font>John 17:1-5<br><br><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><i><span ="text John-17-1">When Jesus had spoken these words, he lifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, <span ="woj">“Father, the hour has come; glorify your Son that the Son may glorify you,</span></span> <span id="en-ESV-26750" ="text John-17-2"><span ="woj"><sup ="versenum">2&nbsp;</sup>since you have given him authority over all flesh, to give eternal life to all whom you have given him.</span></span> <span id="en-ESV-26751" ="text John-17-3"><span ="woj"><sup ="versenum">3&nbsp;</sup>And this is eternal life, that they know you the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.</span></span> <span id="en-ESV-26752" ="text John-17-4"><span ="woj"><sup ="versenum">4&nbsp;</sup>I glorified you on earth, having accomplished the work that you gave me to do.</span></span> <span id="en-ESV-26753" ="text John-17-5"><span ="woj"><sup ="versenum">5&nbsp;</sup>And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed.</span></span></i><br><b><br></b>Would a messenger of God have had glory with God before the world came into existence? Did Muhammad share God's glory... before he was even born? Before the world came into being?<br><br>If you can find me any proof of Muhammad or any other messenger or prophet claiming he had glory with God before the world existed, it would help to serve your cause and show that Jesus was a messenger like any other prophet. Good luck with that.<br><br>Jesus while on earth was man as well as God. As man, He called the Father His God.<br></font></font><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><b><span id="en-ESV-26753" ="text John-17-5"><span ="woj"><br></span></span></b></font></font><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><b><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />John 20:17</b><br><font color="#0066CC">"Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am ascending to my <b>Father and your Father</b>, to <b>my God and your God</b>.'"</font><br><br>Here Jesus (pbuh) clearly equates </font></font>his father and God as being our father and God, the same one God. So Jesus and the rest of us share the same God. Jesus is like us, a creation that has a God. Therefore he cannot be God. And if he was God, he could have said "I am ascending to myself", but he didn't.</div><br>I find it interesting that you use this verse to prove your point, as it contradicts what the Quran teaches about Jesus not being the Son of God, and about Christians not being His children.<br><br>Jesus was both man and God while on earth.<br><br>Also, later in John 20, Thomas saw Jesus. He didn't believe He could have been alive after the crucifixion (another fact that Islam denies) and declared that unless he see His hands and the mark of the nails and put his hands into His side (which was pierced by the spear), he would never believe. Jesus then appeared and&nbsp; let Thomas do just that.<br><br>Thomas then cried "My Lord and my God!"<br><br>That would have been an excellent oppurtunity for Jesus to rebuke Thomas for calling Him his God.<br><br>Instead, He said this:<br><br><span id="en-ESV-26885" ="text John-20-29"><span ="woj">“Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”<br><br><br><font size="3"><b>John 20:11-29</b></font><br></span></span><p><i><span ="text John-20-11"><sup ="versenum">11&nbsp;</sup>But Mary stood weeping outside the tomb, and as she wept she stooped to look into the tomb.</span> <span id="en-ESV-26868" ="text John-20-12"><sup ="versenum">12&nbsp;</sup>And she saw two angels in white, sitting where the body of Jesus had lain, one at the head and one at the feet.</span> <span id="en-ESV-26869" ="text John-20-13"><sup ="versenum">13&nbsp;</sup>They said to her, “Woman, why are you weeping?” She said to them, “They have taken away my Lord, and I do not know where they have laid him.”</span> <span id="en-ESV-26870" ="text John-20-14"><sup ="versenum">14&nbsp;</sup>Having said this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing, but she did not know that it was Jesus.</span> <span id="en-ESV-26871" ="text John-20-15"><sup ="versenum">15&nbsp;</sup>Jesus said to her, <span ="woj">“Woman, why are you weeping? Whom are you seeking?”</span> Supposing him to be the gardener, she said to him, “Sir, if you have carried him away, tell me where you have laid him, and I will take him away.”</span> <span id="en-ESV-26872" ="text John-20-16"><sup ="versenum">16&nbsp;</sup>Jesus said to her, <span ="woj">“Mary.”</span> She turned and said to him in Aramaic,<a href="&quot;#fen-ESV-26872b&quot;" target="_blank">b</a>&#093;">&#091;<a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john%2020&amp;versi&#111;n=ESV#fen-ESV-26872b" target="_blank">b</a>&#093;</sup> “Rabboni!” (which means Teacher).</span> <span id="en-ESV-26873" ="text John-20-17"><sup ="versenum">17&nbsp;</sup>Jesus said to her, <span ="woj">“Do not cling to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father; but go to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.’”</span></span> <span id="en-ESV-26874" ="text John-20-18"><sup ="versenum">18&nbsp;</sup>Mary Magdalene went and announced to the disciples, “I have seen the Lord”—and that he had said these things to her.</span></i></p><i> </i><h3><i><span id="en-ESV-26875" ="text John-20-19">Jesus Appears to the Disciples</span></i></h3><p><i><span ="text John-20-19"><sup ="versenum">19&nbsp;</sup>On the evening of that day, the first day of the week, the doors being locked where the disciples were for fear of the Jews,<a href="&quot;#fen-ESV-26875c&quot;" target="_blank">c</a>&#093;">&#091;<a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john%2020&amp;versi&#111;n=ESV#fen-ESV-26875c" target="_blank">c</a>&#093;</sup> Jesus came and stood among them and said to them, <span ="woj">“Peace be with you.”</span></span> <span id="en-ESV-26876" ="text John-20-20"><sup ="versenum">20&nbsp;</sup>When he had said this, he showed them his hands and his side. Then the disciples were glad when they saw the Lord.</span> <span id="en-ESV-26877" ="text John-20-21"><sup ="versenum">21&nbsp;</sup>Jesus said to them again, <span ="woj">“Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I am sending you.”</span></span> <span id="en-ESV-26878" ="text John-20-22"><sup ="versenum">22&nbsp;</sup>And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, <span ="woj">“Receive the Holy Spirit.</span></span> <span id="en-ESV-26879" ="text John-20-23"><span ="woj"><sup ="versenum">23&nbsp;</sup>If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld.”</span></span></i></p><i> </i><h3><i><span id="en-ESV-26880" ="text John-20-24">Jesus and Thomas</span></i></h3><p><i><span ="text John-20-24"><sup ="versenum">24&nbsp;</sup>Now Thomas, one of the Twelve, called the Twin,<a href="&quot;#fen-ESV-26880d&quot;" target="_blank">d</a>&#093;">&#091;<a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john%2020&amp;versi&#111;n=ESV#fen-ESV-26880d" target="_blank">d</a>&#093;</sup> was not with them when Jesus came.</span> <span id="en-ESV-26881" ="text John-20-25"><sup ="versenum">25&nbsp;</sup>So the other disciples told him, “We have seen the Lord.” But he said to them, “Unless I see in his hands the mark of the nails, and place my finger into the mark of the nails, and place my hand into his side, I will never believe.”</span></i></p><i> </i><p><i><span id="en-ESV-26882" ="text John-20-26"><sup ="versenum">26&nbsp;</sup>Eight days later, his disciples were inside again, and Thomas was with them. Although the doors were locked, Jesus came and stood among them and said, <span ="woj">“Peace be with you.”</span></span> <span id="en-ESV-26883" ="text John-20-27"><sup ="versenum">27&nbsp;</sup>Then he said to Thomas, <span ="woj">“Put your finger here, and see my hands; and put out your hand, and place it in my side. Do not disbelieve, but believe.”</span></span> <span id="en-ESV-26884" ="text John-20-28"><sup ="versenum">28&nbsp;</sup>Thomas answered him, “My Lord and my God!”</span> <span id="en-ESV-26885" ="text John-20-29"><sup ="versenum">29&nbsp;</sup>Jesus said to him, <span ="woj">“Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed.”</span></span></i></p><i> </i><h3><i><span id="en-ESV-26886" ="text John-20-30">The Purpose of This Book</span></i></h3><p><i><span ="text John-20-30"><sup ="versenum">30&nbsp;</sup>Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book;</span> <span id="en-ESV-26887" ="text John-20-31"><sup ="versenum">31&nbsp;</sup>but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name.</span></i></p><br><br><b><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><b><span id="en-ESV-26753" ="text John-17-5"><span ="woj"><br></span></span></b></font></font><font color="#0066CC"><font color="#000000"><b><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br /></b></font></font>John 14:28</b><br><font color="#0066CC">"for My Father is <b>greater</b> than I"</font><br><br>If jesus (pbuh) was claiming to be God, then he would not say that the father is greater than him, because they would be the same.<br><br></div><br><br>If you took the time to read the Bible in its entirety, you would understand that Jesus, while on earth, made Himself voluntarily inferior to the Father.<br><br><b><font size="3">Philippians 2:4-11<br></font></b><br> <i><span id="en-ESV-29379" ="text Phil-2-4"><sup ="versenum">4&nbsp;</sup>Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others.</span> <span id="en-ESV-29380" ="text Phil-2-5"><sup ="versenum">5&nbsp;</sup>Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,<a href="&quot;#fen-ESV-29380a&quot;" target="_blank">a</a>&#093;">&#091;<a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Philippians%202&amp;versi&#111;n=ESV#fen-ESV-29380a" target="_blank">a</a>&#093;</sup></span> <span id="en-ESV-29381" ="text Phil-2-6"><sup ="versenum">6&nbsp;</sup>who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,</span> <span id="en-ESV-29382" ="text Phil-2-7"><sup ="versenum">7&nbsp;</sup>but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant,<a href="&quot;#fen-ESV-29382b&quot;" target="_blank">b</a>&#093;">&#091;<a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Philippians%202&amp;versi&#111;n=ESV#fen-ESV-29382b" target="_blank">b</a>&#093;</sup> being born in the likeness of men.</span> <span id="en-ESV-29383" ="text Phil-2-8"><sup ="versenum">8&nbsp;</sup>And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.</span> <span id="en-ESV-29384" ="text Phil-2-9"><sup ="versenum">9&nbsp;</sup>Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name,</span> <span id="en-ESV-29385" ="text Phil-2-10"><sup ="versenum">10&nbsp;</sup>so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,</span> <span id="en-ESV-29386" ="text Phil-2-11"><sup ="versenum">11&nbsp;</sup>and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.</span></i><br>]]>
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   <pubDate>Thu, 24 Jan 2013 04:50:37 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL : Posted by Abu Loren:G&amp;#039;day...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71902">Eoah</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 24 January 2013 at 1:32am<br /><br /><div><i><b>Posted by Abu Loren:</b><br><br>G'day mate (I'm not an Aussie)</i></div><div><i>&nbsp;</i></div><div><i>Well what is the definition of a Christian? A follower of Christ. A Christian is taught that Jesus is devine and the NT is overtaken by Pauline Trinitarians so if a Christian accept Jesus (Alayhi Salaam) just as the Messiah and not devine then he/she is thinking outside the box.</i></div><div><i>&nbsp;</i></div><div><i>However, I have heard the term 'Unitarian Christian' before and I think more and more "Christians" are coming around to the idea that Jesus (Alayhi Salaam) was not devine.<br></i><br>Gidday Abu Loren.&nbsp; Assalamu alaykum to you. ( I haven't figgered out how to get a quote box, so italics will have to do.)<br><br>I googled Unitarian Church and I guess I am not so alone in my beliefs.<br><br>What you say is well put.<br><br>&nbsp; Personally, I don't need miracles to believe in Jesus:&nbsp; All I need is his life and his teachings.&nbsp; I don't want to argue whether the miracles happened or not.&nbsp; But my own personal miracle was when I became a Christian at the age of 10 years old and experianced the Holy Spirit for the first time.&nbsp; It was totally shocking in its unexpectedness; I had no idea I could feel so much joy.&nbsp; I was actually asked: "Do you want&nbsp; to ask Jesus to come into your life?"&nbsp; At the time I just assumed that "Getting Jesus into my life" was just a manner of speaking that actually mean't "-getting God into my life through acknowledging Jesus as my saviour".&nbsp; At the time, it never occurred to me that Christians actually worshipped some sort of "Jesus Deity" -&nbsp; That would be soooo against the 10 commandments!!!&nbsp; Don't even think about it!<br><br>I grew up where when you go to church they say: "In the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost" and that it was called the 'Trinity'.&nbsp; And, let's face it: I believe in the Father; I believe in the Son; I believe in the Holy Ghost and I still do.&nbsp; But, if someone had told me that the Trinity was believing in 3 Gods in 1 God....that is a despicable Blasphemy against God no matter how many Christians believed in it!<br></div>]]>
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   <pubDate>Thu, 24 Jan 2013 01:32:37 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL : Posted by TG12345:&amp;#034;Alaikum...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=173255#173255</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71902">Eoah</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 24 January 2013 at 12:10am<br /><br /><b>Posted by TG12345:<br><br></b><i>"Alaikum Salaam Eoah,<br><br>You just said the Holy Spirit is God almighty. Do you believe that the Father is God also? You believe God is one, yet you believe He exists as the Father and the Holy Spirit, do you not? Why then is it impossible for Him to be one and exist as the Father, Son and Holy Spirit?"<br><br></i>Because the Son is NOT God and the ideology of trinity is NOT in the Bible:&nbsp; Yes, I acknowledge the Father, Son and the Holy Ghost exist in the Bible, but when these 3 are exploited by Satan, through the council of Nicea, into 3 Gods. Now that is a heresy that is an insult to God and his commandments!<br><br><i>Do you know that he denied the crucifixion of Jesus?<br></i><br>No.&nbsp; Please show me the verses please.&nbsp; I do in fact believe that the crucifixion happened.<br><br>&nbsp; And if you want to judge me as being a non Christian, that is your opinion.&nbsp; But, I know in my heart what I am and God can see in my heart what I am.&nbsp; I don't need your permission to be a Christian.<br>]]>
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   <pubDate>Thu, 24 Jan 2013 00:10:17 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :   Originally posted by EoahI...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=173249#173249</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=70404">Abu Loren</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 23 January 2013 at 7:05pm<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Eoah</strong></em><br /><br /><br>I wonder what the percentage of Christians who worship only God Almighty and none other - compared to all the rest.&nbsp; It must be a tiny minority.&nbsp; Maybe less than 5%?<br><br></div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>G'day mate (I'm not an Aussie)</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>Well what is the definition of a Christian? A follower of Christ. A Christian is taught that Jesus is devine and the NT is overtaken by Pauline Trinitarians so if a Christian accept Jesus (Alayhi Salaam) just as the Messiah and not devine then he/she is thinking outside the box.</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>However, I have heard the term 'Unitarian Christian' before and I think more and more "Christians" are coming around to the idea that Jesus (Alayhi Salaam) was not devine.</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>On another thread Carignheart asked why God would breathe His spirit into Jesus (Alayhi Salaam). Surely the answer is very simple, it was to show that God can do anything and to show that Jesus (Alayhi Salaam) was a miracle birth through a virgin. Also to show to the doubters that Jesus (Alayhi Salaam) was indeed the promised Messiah.</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>Why does his birth or his life needs to have devine qualities? Surely the idea that God Almighty can live among his creatures is abominable?</div>]]>
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   <pubDate>Wed, 23 Jan 2013 19:05:09 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :   &amp;#1575;&amp;#1604;&amp;#1587;&amp;#1604;&amp;#1575;&amp;#1605;...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71774">Rational</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 23 January 2013 at 5:18pm<br /><br />&#1575;&#1604;&#1587;&#1604;&#1575;&#1605; &#1593;&#1604;&#1610;&#1603;&#1605; &#1608;&#1585;&#1581;&#1605;&#1577; &#1575;&#1604;&#1604;&#1607; &#1608;&#1576;&#1585;&#1603;&#1575;&#1578;&#1607;<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />You asked me to show you where Jesus "I am God, worship me". I showed you things that He said that no other person would say unless He was claiming to be God.</div><br>Yes I did ask you that. I read those versus very thoroughly. They did not convince me that I should worship Jesus (pbuh). In fact, they lean towards him being a man dependant on God, because he constantly relies on the father when he speaks and identifies the father as his superior, and God does not have a superior. Jesus does not explicitly say "I am God" or anything close to that, and he does not say "Worship me" or anything close to that. God (Almighty) has always been very explicit when identifying Himself, He explicitly declares and glorifies Himself as God and to be worshiped. He (Almighty) wants to be known. Jesus on the other hand never did this because if he was God, he would have made it straightforward for us to recognise him as God. Instead, we're disputing this because the Bible doesn't do justice to your claim that he is God. You are depending on implicit statements that don't conclusively prove that he is God, you even said it yourself <i>"God However, He did make it very clear He is God in <u><b>other words</b></u>."</i> Exactly my point, why is God using <u>other words</u> to tell us he is God? Those <u>other words</u> could mean God to you, man to me. They are not concrete. If he was indeed God, he would have been absolutely clear about his claim to be God.<br><br>Let's see what Jesus (pbuh) said, explicitly:<br><br><b>John 17:3</b><br><font color="#0066CC">"Now this is eternal life:<b> that they know</b> <b>you</b>, <b>the only true God</b>, and <b>Jesus Christ, whom you have sent</b>"</font><br><br>Here a <u>messenger</u> is talking to <u>God</u>. Explicit and clear. A Muslim accepts wholeheartedly that this verse is the words of Jesus (pbuh) because it's identical to the first pillar of Islam, the Shahada, which every muslim declares:<br><br><font color="#0066CC">"<b>There is no God but Allah</b> and <b>Muhammad is His messenger</b>"<br><br><font color="#000000">Two messengers worshiping the same One God.<br><br><b>John 20:17</b><br><font color="#0066CC">"Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am ascending to my <b>Father and your Father</b>, to <b>my God and your God</b>.'"</font><br><br>Here Jesus (pbuh) clearly equates </font></font>his father and God as being our father and God, the same one God. So Jesus and the rest of us share the same God. Jesus is like us, a creation that has a God. Therefore he cannot be God. And if he was God, he could have said "I am ascending to myself", but he didn't.<br><br><b>John 14:28</b><br><font color="#0066CC">"for My Father is <b>greater</b> than I"</font><br><br>If jesus (pbuh) was claiming to be God, then he would not say that the father is greater than him, because they would be the same.<br><br><span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by Rational - 23 January 2013 at 5:54pm</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Wed, 23 Jan 2013 17:18:10 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :   Originally posted by EoahThankyou...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71711">TG12345</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 23 January 2013 at 4:56pm<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Eoah</strong></em><br /><br />Thankyou Rational for backing me up. I love you brother!<br><br>People read my introduction, because what I say there is somewhat relevant to what we are talking about here.&nbsp; No has yet responded to it and <i>I don't want to feel all ignored!!!@#!</i><br><br>I wonder what the percentage of Christians who worship only God Almighty and none other - compared to all the rest.&nbsp; It must be a tiny minority.&nbsp; Maybe less than 5%?<br><br>I was just reflecting the other day on the term "Unity in Christ".&nbsp; Think about it: "Unity in Christ" <b>is</b> "Disunity in God", because unity in Christ separates you from all other religions of the One God.&nbsp;&nbsp; Christians who believes that "Jesus is Lord" are essentially incapable of religious tolerance, because they are locked away in their own self imposed prison along with all their arrogance and smugness.<br><br>&nbsp; "And the truth shall set you free!"<br><br>Idealistically, I would like to see both Christian Submitters and non Christian Submitters studying both the Bible and the Quran with Muslims.&nbsp; And all support one another in their faiths.&nbsp; Not only is that genuine "Unity in God", but it is religious tolerance on steriods!!!<br><br>And with Christian Submitters and others you are less likely to have st**id head-banging circular arguments. <br></div><br><br>Eoah,<br><br>Salaam alaikum. I noticed you used the word "Submitters". What did you mean by that?<br><br>Are you by any chance an adherent of the Submitters group? If not, please accept my apologies and correct me. The language you are using just sounds similar to what I read on their site.<br><br>http://www.submission.info/index.html<br><br>I am just curious.<br>]]>
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   <pubDate>Wed, 23 Jan 2013 16:56:37 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :    Originally posted by Rational  Originally...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71711">TG12345</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 23 January 2013 at 4:41pm<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br /><br><img src="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/smileys/smiley5.gif" border="0" align="absmiddle" alt="C&#111;nfused" /><br><br></div><br><br>Your ability to copy and paste silly faces is amazing and astounding. When you have something to actually add to the discussion, let me know.<br></div><br><br>Assalamo Alaik TG, Please don't be upset. The face icon means "Confused" that's all.<br></div><br><br>Wa alaikum salaam Rational,<br><br>I am not at all upset, I guess I found it a bit annoying and thought you were trying to be insulting. <br><br>When I find something in Islam confusing or disagreeable, I always say what that is and try to provide the reasons for my disagreement, usually backing whatever points I make with quotes from the Quran, hadiths or other Muslim sources. <br><br>You have used the word "rubbish" in the past to describe my beliefs, something I would never do with yours regardless of how false I believe them to be. So I guess seeing the face made me think you were trying to be insulting.<br><br>I guess you showing a face icon was your way of saying you were confused. Sorry if I misunderstood what you were trying to get across.<br><br>Salaam.<br><span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by TG12345 - 23 January 2013 at 4:59pm</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Wed, 23 Jan 2013 16:41:08 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :   Originally posted by TG12345  Originally...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=173240#173240</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71774">Rational</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 23 January 2013 at 2:41pm<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br /><br><img src="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/smileys/smiley5.gif" border="0" align="absmiddle" alt="C&#111;nfused" /><br><br></div><br><br>Your ability to copy and paste silly faces is amazing and astounding. When you have something to actually add to the discussion, let me know.<br></div><br><br>Assalamo Alaik TG, Please don't be upset. The face icon means "Confused" that's all.<br>]]>
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   <pubDate>Wed, 23 Jan 2013 14:41:26 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :   Originally posted by EoahNo...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=173238#173238</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=69566">Caringheart</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 23 January 2013 at 2:16pm<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Eoah</strong></em><br /><br />No has yet responded to it</div><br><br><i>I did.&nbsp; <img src="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/smileys/smiley1.gif" border="0" align="absmiddle" alt="Smile" /></i><br><br><blockquote>"I wonder what the percentage of Christians who worship only God Almighty and none other - compared to all the rest."<br></blockquote>I worship one God, but I believe in Jesus and in what He said.<br><br><blockquote>"Idealistically, I would like to see both Christian Submitters and non Christian Submitters studying both the Bible and the Quran with Muslims.&nbsp; And all support one another in their faiths.&nbsp; Not only is that genuine "Unity in God", but it is religious tolerance on steriods!!!"<br></blockquote>Only if we truly follow the same God.<br><br>I agree though, argument over beliefs gets us nowhere, if you've read some of my other posts. &nbsp;<img src="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/smileys/smiley1.gif" border="0" align="absmiddle" alt="Smile" /> ]]>
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   <pubDate>Wed, 23 Jan 2013 14:16:06 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL : It is interesting to me that last...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=173229#173229</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=69566">Caringheart</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 23 January 2013 at 1:00pm<br /><br />It is interesting to me that last night I watched a muslim woman explaining the qur'ans version of Mary's conception, and she spoke of how allah breathed his spirit into the womb of Mary...<br>and yet muslims do not consider this child divine... ?<br>]]>
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   <pubDate>Wed, 23 Jan 2013 13:00:18 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :  Greetings Rational,Yes but quran...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=173228#173228</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=69566">Caringheart</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 23 January 2013 at 12:56pm<br /><br />Greetings Rational,<br><br>Yes but quran also says 'to each his own religion... God leads to whom He wills' &#091;my paraphrase&#093;<br>'to you your beliefs and to me my own'<br><br>If one of us is astray in our belief we will answer to God.<br><br>What I am addressing is not allowing this difference in beliefs to divert us, and blind us to what is evil, and the intents of satan.<br><br>Fighting one another over these beliefs would be evil, and would serve not the intents of God, but of satan. <br><br>Salaam,<br>Caringheart<br><span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by Caringheart - 23 January 2013 at 12:57pm</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Wed, 23 Jan 2013 12:56:53 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL : Thankyou Rational for backing...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=173219#173219</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71902">Eoah</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 23 January 2013 at 9:50am<br /><br />Thankyou Rational for backing me up. I love you brother!<br><br>People read my introduction, because what I say there is somewhat relevant to what we are talking about here.&nbsp; No has yet responded to it and <i>I don't want to feel all ignored!!!@#!</i><br><br>I wonder what the percentage of Christians who worship only God Almighty and none other - compared to all the rest.&nbsp; It must be a tiny minority.&nbsp; Maybe less than 5%?<br><br>I was just reflecting the other day on the term "Unity in Christ".&nbsp; Think about it: "Unity in Christ" <b>is</b> "Disunity in God", because unity in Christ separates you from all other religions of the One God.&nbsp;&nbsp; Christians who believes that "Jesus is Lord" are essentially incapable of religious tolerance, because they are locked away in their own self imposed prison along with all their arrogance and smugness.<br><br>&nbsp; "And the truth shall set you free!"<br><br>Idealistically, I would like to see both Christian Submitters and non Christian Submitters studying both the Bible and the Quran with Muslims.&nbsp; And all support one another in their faiths.&nbsp; Not only is that genuine "Unity in God", but it is religious tolerance on steriods!!!<br><br>And with Christian Submitters and others you are less likely to have st**id head-banging circular arguments. <br>]]>
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   <pubDate>Wed, 23 Jan 2013 09:50:42 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :       &amp;#8206;&amp;#1575;&amp;#16...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71774">Rational</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 23 January 2013 at 4:27am<br /><br />&#8206;&#1575;&#1604;&#1587;&#1604;&#1575;&#1605; &#1593;&#1604;&#1610;&#1603;&#1605; &#1608;&#1585;&#1581;&#1605;&#1577; &#1575;&#1604;&#1604;&#1607; &#1608;&#1576;&#1585;&#1603;&#1575;&#1578;&#1607;<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />You do know that satan loves nothing more than to cause strife... to see arguing for no purpose other than the sake of arguing.<br>Let us converse with one another, not argue over details.<br></div><br>Hi Caringheart, I don't see anyone arguing here. The details being discussed are very important, they're the difference between Heaven and Hell in Muslim believes. There is a great purpose and lesson to be learned here, if only you'd see it. This debate is annoying satan, it's killing him because we're exposing his lies and deciet. We're bringing the truth out and this drives him crazy, he can't stand it. <br><br>Claiming that God had a Son is very serious to Allah (Subhanahu wa ta'ala). He (almighty) warns against this matter several times in the Quran to signify the seriousness it has.<br><br><font color="#0066CC"><i>"</i><span id="t-2-116" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><i><span ="ayatext"="">They say, "Allah has taken a son." Exalted is He! Rather, to Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and the earth. All are devoutly obedient to Him,"</span></i> <span ="ayanumber"="">(<a href="http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/2:116" target="_blank">116</a>)</span></span></span><span id="t-6-101" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><span ="ayanumber"=""><br><br></span></span></span><i>"</i><span id="t-5-116" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><i><span ="ayatext"="">And &#091;beware the Day&#093; when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah?'" He will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen."</span></i> <span ="ayanumber"="">(<a href="http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/5:116" target="_blank">116</a>)</span></span></span><font color="#000000"> I see artisitc drawing of the virgin Mary and and baby Jesus everywhere in Ukraine, it's obvious they are idols being worshipped.<br></font><br><i>"</i><span id="t-6-101" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><span ="ayatext"=""><i>&#091;He is&#093; Originator of the heavens and the earth. How could He have a son when He does not have a companion and He created all things? And He is, of all things, Knowing."</i></span> <span ="ayanumber"="">(<a href="http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/6:101" target="_blank">101</a>)<br><br><i>"</i></span></span></span><span id="t-9-30" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><span ="ayatext"=""><i>The Jews say, "Ezra is the son of Allah"; and the Christians say, "The Messiah is the son of Allah." That is their statement from their mouths; they imitate the saying of those who disbelieved &#091;before them&#093;. May Allah destroy them; how are they deluded?"</i></span> <span ="ayanumber"="">(<a href="http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/9:30" target="_blank">30</a>)</span></span></span><br><br><i>"</i><span id="t-10-68" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><i><span ="ayatext"="">They have said, "Allah has taken a son." Exalted is He; He is the &#091;one&#093; Free of need. To Him belongs whatever is in the heavens and whatever is in the earth. You have no authority for this &#091;claim&#093;. Do you say about Allah that which you do not know?"</span></i> <span ="ayanumber"="">(<a href="http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/10:68" target="_blank">68</a>)<br><br><i>"</i></span></span></span><span id="t-10-68" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><span ="ayanumber"=""><span id="t-19-35" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><span ="ayatext"=""><i>It is not &#091;befitting&#093; for Allah to take a son; exalted is He! When He decrees an affair, He only says to it, "Be," and it is."</i></span> <span ="ayanumber"="">(<a href="http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/19:35" target="_blank">35</a>)<br><br><i>"</i></span></span></span></span></span></span><span id="t-19-88" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><span ="ayatext"=""><i>And they say, "The Most Merciful has taken &#091;for Himself&#093; a son."</i></span> <span ="ayanumber"="">(<a href="http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/19:88" target="_blank">88</a>)</span></span></span><br><br><i>"</i><span id="t-23-91" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><span ="ayatext"=""><i>Allah has not taken any son, nor has there ever been with Him any deity. &#091;If there had been&#093;, then each deity would have taken what it created, and some of them would have sought to overcome others. Exalted is Allah above what they describe &#091;concerning Him&#093;."</i></span> <span ="ayanumber"="">(<a href="http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/23:91" target="_blank">91</a>)</span></span></span><br><br><i>"</i><span id="t-37-151" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><span ="ayatext"=""><i>Unquestionably, it is out of their &#091;invented&#093; falsehood that they say,</i></span> <span ="ayanumber"="">(<a href="http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/37:151" target="_blank">151</a>)</span></span></span> <span id="t-37-152" ="aya="" hover"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><i><span ="ayatext"="">"Allah has begotten," and indeed, they are liars."</span></i> <span ="ayanumber"="">(<a href="http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/37:152" target="_blank">152</a>)</span></span></span><br><br><i>"</i><span id="t-39-4" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><span ="ayatext"=""><i>If Allah had intended to take a son, He could have chosen from what He creates whatever He willed. Exalted is He; He is Allah, the One, the Prevailing."</i></span> <span ="ayanumber"="">(<a href="http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/39:4" target="_blank">4</a>)</span></span></span><br><br><i>"</i><span id="t-43-81" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><span ="ayatext"=""><i>Say, &#091;O Muhammad&#093;, "If the Most Merciful had a son, then I would be the first of &#091;his&#093; worshippers."</i></span> <span ="ayanumber"="">(<a href="http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/43:81" target="_blank">81</a>)</span></span></span> <i></i><span id="t-43-82" ="aya"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><span ="ayatext"=""><i>Exalted is the Lord of the heavens and the earth, Lord of the Throne, above what they describe."</i></span> <span ="ayanumber"="">(<a href="http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/43:82" target="_blank">82</a>)</span></span></span> <font color="#000000">Subhan Allah, God is saying that if He had a son, Mohammad would be the </font><span id="t-43-81" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><span ="ayatext"=""><font color="#000000">first of &#091;his&#093; worshippers!</font><br><br><i>"</i></span></span></span><span id="t-72-3" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><i><span ="ayatext"="">And &#091;it teaches&#093; that exalted is the nobleness of our Lord; He has not taken a wife or a son"</span></i> <span ="ayanumber"="">(<a href="http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/72:3" target="_blank">3</a>)</span></span></span><br><br><i>"</i><span id="t-112-3" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><span ="ayatext"=""><i>He neither begets nor is born,</i></span> <span ="ayanumber"="">(<a href="http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/112:3" target="_blank">3</a>)</span></span></span> <span id="t-112-4" ="aya"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><span ="ayatext"=""><i>Nor is there to Him any equivalent."</i></span> <span ="ayanumber"="">(<a href="http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/112:4" target="_blank">4</a>)</span></span></span></font><br><br>Very serious matter indeed.<br><span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by Rational - 23 January 2013 at 5:56am</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Wed, 23 Jan 2013 04:27:18 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :    Originally posted by Reepicheepnospam001...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=173200#173200</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71711">TG12345</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 22 January 2013 at 4:23pm<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Reepicheep</strong></em><br /><br /><strong>nospam001 wrote: 3 modulo 2 = 1 in the sense that 1 is the <em>remainder</em> after division...</strong> <div>&nbsp;</div><div>You are of course correct.&nbsp; Clearly you are more than just a pretty face.&nbsp; I should have been more careful in my equations.</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>OK, how about this for an explanation.&nbsp; In the following equation:</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div><strong><font color="#ff0000">3</font> modulo 2 = <font color="#ff0000">1</font></strong></div><div><strong></strong>&nbsp;</div><div>I was clearly in error in claiming that the two numbers in red above are equivalent.&nbsp; But consider the following two equations:</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div><strong><font color="#ff0000">1</font> modulo 2 = 1</strong></div><div><strong><font color="#ff0000">3 </font>modulo 2 = 1</strong></div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>Here, the numbers 1 and 3 in red are equivalent.&nbsp; Or, combining these statements into one, we get:</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div><strong>3 &#8801; 1&nbsp;&nbsp; (mod 2)</strong></div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>So, lets make this&nbsp;equation my mathematical analogy for the Trinity.</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>(I hope this equation reads OK at your end; I tried to insert that weird symbol consisting of three parallel horizontal lines, and had difficulty doing so)</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>(EDIT: hey, it just occured to me that the weird symbol consists of THREE horizontal lines.&nbsp; Doesn't that make my equation twice as convincing as an argument proving the existance of the Trinity???)</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div><strong>********************</strong></div><div><strong></strong>&nbsp;</div><div><strong>nospam001 wrote, in reference to a post by Caringheart: As for the 'trinity' of fundamental forces, weak, strong and electromagnetic, What about gravity?&nbsp; </strong></div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>Actually, I&nbsp;really like Caringheart's analogy.&nbsp; I believe that the first three forces discovered by humans were electricity, magnetism, and gravity.&nbsp; We now&nbsp;know that electricity and magnetism are, in fact, the same force.&nbsp; If science ever does come up with a TOE ("theory of everything"), then we will have proven that gravity, electricity, and magnetism are all the same force.</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>So, then, are these three forces or one force?&nbsp; In the Trinity, are there 3 gods or 1 god?&nbsp; I think the analogy is&nbsp;quite good.</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>Of course, this analogy ignores the existance of the weak and strong forces, just as my&nbsp;modulo analogy ignores the fact that:</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>5 mod 2&nbsp;= 3 mod&nbsp;2</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>But that's the thing about analogies: they always break down at some point, and we must be careful not to&nbsp;take them too far.</div><div>&nbsp;</div></div><div>&nbsp;</div><div><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Abu Loren</strong></em><br /><br />You guys CANNOT be serious! Do you know how stoopid you guys look? All this science has clouded your brains.</div></div><br><br>Note to Abu Loren:<br><br>Salaam Alaikum.<br><br>Before you break Islamicity forum rules (again) by insulting other posters and to avoid bringing more embarrassment on yourself, consider using a spell checker.<br><br>It's spelled <i>s-t-u-p-i-d</i>. Not <i>s-t-o-o-p-i-d</i>.<br><br>End of Note.<br><span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by TG12345 - 22 January 2013 at 4:25pm</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Tue, 22 Jan 2013 16:23:53 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :   Originally posted by Rational TG,...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=173198#173198</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71711">TG12345</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 22 January 2013 at 4:00pm<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br /><br><br>TG, listen to your fellow Christian, our friend Eoah. He's telling you that Jesus is not God.<br></div><br><br>I can direct you to sites ran by your "fellow Muslims", who will tell you that hell will be emptied according to Islam, that Muhammad didn't stone anyone, and that the hadiths are Satanic fabrications.<br><br>I can direct you to other sides by "fellow Muslims" like Irshad Manjit who will tell you Islam needs to be reformed and that homosexuality is ok according to the Quran.<br><br>I have nothing against Eoah, but from his post that I just read and responded to, I believe he does not understand the truth about Jesus. You would probably argue that Irshad Manjit and Islam Revolution do not understand the truth about Islam.<br><br>Two can play this game.<br>]]>
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   <pubDate>Tue, 22 Jan 2013 16:00:19 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :    Originally posted by EoahGreetings...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=173197#173197</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71711">TG12345</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 22 January 2013 at 3:50pm<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Eoah</strong></em><br /><br />Greetings TG12345...and to all that have offered such interesting discussion on this hot topic.<br><br><br><i>"You are the one who is wrong. Jesus was God in the flesh. He was both God and man." </i><br><br>No, it is you who is wrong! The creator cannot be creation.&nbsp; The bottom line is that Jesus never said: "I am God", because Jesus is creation.&nbsp; Even though God resides in Heaven, that doesn't imply that God doesn't reside on earth, for we can experiance the joy and the knowingness of God within creation through the Holy Spirit.&nbsp; Now the Holy Spirit is not a separate God who is partner to God Almighty, either.&nbsp; The Holy Spirit <b>is </b>God Almighty who is the one and only.<br><br>When Jesus said: "I and my father are one" it is because he is connected to God through the Holy Spirit.&nbsp; Now, in that sentence it only seems like the Holy Spirit is a separate from God Almighty in Heaven.&nbsp; God in Heaven and God on Earth (Holy Spirit) is a totally seamless awesome universal one being that is totally beyond our comprehention!!!&nbsp; But, I love him and I live by him.&nbsp; And Jesus is my spiritual role model, but even though I am a Christian, Prophet Mohammed is my spiritual role model too.&nbsp; God bless them both!<br><br>There is nothing in the Bible that equates God as 3; there is nothing in the Bible that equates God with 2.&nbsp; But, over and over in the bible God is one all the way, baby!&nbsp; And the Quran backs that up over and over again that the Bible is true in the statement that God is one!&nbsp; The council of Nicea can't argue with that.&nbsp; And the council of Nicea don't have the authority to say God is 3 because they're not Prophets anointed by God.<br><br>Now TG12345, I might have alot of contempt for them "Jesus Idol worshippers",&nbsp; but, I respect you and love you simply because you are on this forum with the courage to discuss your spiritual convictions.&nbsp; May the One God Bless you.<br><br></div><br><br>Alaikum Salaam Eoah,<br><br>You just said the Holy Spirit is God almighty. Do you believe that the Father is God also? You believe God is one, yet you believe He exists as the Father and the Holy Spirit, do you not? Why then is it impossible for Him to be one and exist as the Father, Son and Holy Spirit?<br><br>If the statement "I and my Father are one" meant simply what you mean it says, then surely there would have been other prophets in the Old Testament or Quran who would have said such a thing. Someone (other than Jesus) also would have surely said He would judge the nations and condemn sinners to hell and doers of good to heaven, or that those who have seen him have seen the Father. If you can find me just one example of a prophet other than Jesus saying that, I will be more likely to consider this argument you are making. <br><br>I find it interesting that while you claim to be a Christian, you also make the statement that Muhammad is a Prophet and that he is your spiritual role model.<br><br>Do you know that he denied the crucifixion of Jesus?<br><br>If you agree with him that Jesus was not crucified, then I am sorry to tell you this but you are not a Christian. Unless you deny what Christ did for you on the cross, you cannot accept Muhammad as a prophet of God or a spiritual role model. <br><br><br><span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by TG12345 - 22 January 2013 at 3:54pm</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Tue, 22 Jan 2013 15:50:22 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :    Originally posted by TG12345Stating...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71711">TG12345</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 22 January 2013 at 3:42pm<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />Stating that one God existing as three persons = polytheism on the part of Christians requires as much ignorance of Christianity as stating that ascribing 99+ attributes to God = believing there are 99+ gods on the part of Muslims requires ignorance of Islam.</div><br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />Stop talking rubbish. I can't take anymore in one day my bin is full.</div><br>Salaam Alaikum, Rational.<br><br>If this discussion is frustrating you or you are unable to respond to my points, no one is forcing you to continue.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />These are 99 specific Names of Allah, attributes of Allah. They describe Him (Azza Wa Jall). Not a single one of these names "manifested itself on earth as God for us to see", as you believe with your "Son of God". Not a single one of these names was conceived in a woman and later born on earth, as we Muslims believe happened to Jesus (pbuh). Because Jesus (pbuh) is a man, attributes belong to God.</div><br>Yet there are 99 of them. So to a person ignorant about Islam that could mean you believe in 99 gods.<br><br>Christianity teaches that God exists as three persons... it would take someone ignorant of Christian beliefs to claim it teaches in 3 different gods.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />Since God exists as three <b><font color="#FF0000">persons</font></b>...<br><br>So while one of the <b><font color="#FF0000">persons</font></b> of the Trinity died...<br></div><br>Definition of "Person":<br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br />1. A human being regarded as an <u>individual</u>.<br>2. Used in legal or formal contexts to refer to an unspecified <u>individual</u>.<br>3. A self-conscious or rational being.<br><br>Therefore by definition, each one of those "Persons" is an Individual, a self-conscious or rational being. <br><br>Definition of "Individual":<br>1. A <u>distinct</u>, <u>indivisible entity</u>; <u>a single thing</u>, being, <u>instance</u>, or <u>item</u>.<br>2. A <u>single</u> human being as <u>distinct</u> from a group.<br><br>Adjective<br><u>Single</u>; <u>separate</u>: "individual tiny flowers".<br><br>So, each "Person" is a single, separate, distinct individual. And you have three persons. You say you worship One. By definition, you don't. By definition, you are worshiping <u>three Persons</u>, three Gods. <br><br>(<b>God</b> the father) + (<b>God</b> the son) + (<b>God</b> the spirit) = <b>3</b><br><br>No matter what fancy illustration you use to define 3=1, by definition you're wrong. What you really want is 3=3. Much easier.<br><br></div><br>If I believed that each of the three persons is a god, you would be right. But I don't. Neither do any Christians.<br><br>We believe one God exists and reveals Himself to humanity as the Father, the Son and Holy Spirit. It is simple as that. This may be very different from your view of God, but it does not mean we do not believe He is one. <br><br>He is one God, who exists as three persons. Just because in your mind that immediately has to mean there are 3 separate gods does not make it so.<br><br><br>You believe there are 99 attributes of God. That the Quran talks about AlRahim and AlRahman does not mean you worship a Merciful god and <br>another compassionate god, and they are 2 of the 99 deities Muslims worship. <br><span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by TG12345 - 22 January 2013 at 3:56pm</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Tue, 22 Jan 2013 15:42:01 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :    Originally posted by RationalDid...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=173195#173195</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71711">TG12345</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 22 January 2013 at 3:30pm<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br />Did Muhammad or any prophet in the Old Testament or Quran claim that those who have seen him have seen God?<br><br>Did Muhammad or any prophet in the Old Testament or Quran say that He and God are one?<br><br>Did Muhammad or any prophet in the Old Testament or Quran say that he will judge the nations and decide who goes to heaven and who goes to hell?</div><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />Ofcourse they didn't because thier books were not corrupted like yours. Why are you stating the obvious? Your fabricated book says this <u>because</u> it's corrupt. Jesus (pbuh) never wanted to be worshipped. He is a creation and you should not worship the creation, you should only worship the Creator. If you'll happen to be alive when Jesus (pbuh) returns to earth, make sure you get your facts straight before you walk up to him wearing a cross.<br></div><br><br>You asked me to show you where Jesus "I am God, worship me". I showed you things that He said that no other person would say unless He was claiming to be God.<br><br>When you meet Jesus, hopefully it will be before and not after you die and have to face Him and explain why you denied His divinity and suffering on the cross for you.<br><br>Speaking of corrupted holy books, the Quran can't even decide whether the traits and descriptions of Muhammad were hidden by Christians in the mythical "Injil" you believe was revealed to Him, or whether they should look in that same book (or remnants of it) to find him there. <br><span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by TG12345 - 22 January 2013 at 4:00pm</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Tue, 22 Jan 2013 15:30:14 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :   Originally posted by RationalYour...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=173194#173194</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71711">TG12345</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 22 January 2013 at 3:26pm<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br /><br><img src="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/smileys/smiley5.gif" border="0" align="absmiddle" alt="C&#111;nfused" /><br><br></div><br><br>Your ability to copy and paste silly faces is amazing and astounding. When you have something to actually add to the discussion, let me know.<br>]]>
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   <pubDate>Tue, 22 Jan 2013 15:26:34 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :  The new testament(mystery) is...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=69566">Caringheart</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 22 January 2013 at 2:56pm<br /><br />The new testament(mystery) is concealed in the old (the prophesy of Jesus to come)<br>and the old testament(mystery) is revealed in the new (the coming of Jesus reveals what was hidden in the old testament)<br><br><br><i>&nbsp;...that I might fully declare God's Word--that sacred mystery which up till now has been hidden in every age and every generation, but which is now as clear as daylight to those who love God.</i><br><br><span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by Caringheart - 05 February 2013 at 9:03pm</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Tue, 22 Jan 2013 14:56:14 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :  All Christians will go to hell?...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=173191#173191</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=69566">Caringheart</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 22 January 2013 at 2:50pm<br /><br />All Christians will go to hell?&nbsp; and what about the non-Christian?<br>Let us examine.<br><br>Man:&nbsp; "Lord I never knew You"<br>Jesus:&nbsp; "and yet you have lived in every way according to what I have taught."<br>Man:&nbsp; "Have I Lord?"<br>Jesus:&nbsp; "You have always sought the Father and now you see me.&nbsp; Do you see that I am the Son?"<br>Man:&nbsp; "Yes Lord, Yes I do."<br><br>and what judgement do you think Jesus will pass on this man?<br><br>You see whatever path one has taken, if they have been seeking God, they will one day see the Truth of Jesus... and yes, Jesus <i>is ,the way</i>, to the Father.&nbsp; Jesus is the One to grant admission to His kingdom.<br><br>Just something to ponder.<br><br><br>You do know that satan loves nothing more than to cause strife... to see arguing for no purpose other than the sake of arguing.<br>Let us converse with one another, not argue over details.<br><br>Peace and blessings to all. <img src="http://www.islamicity.com/forum/smileys/smiley27.gif" border="0" align="absmiddle" alt="Heart" /><span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by Caringheart - 22 January 2013 at 2:51pm</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Tue, 22 Jan 2013 14:50:08 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :  Just as there are muslims without...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=69566">Caringheart</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 22 January 2013 at 2:46pm<br /><br />Just as there are muslims without full understanding, there are those that call themselves Christian who lack knowledge and understanding... who are astray in their thinking.&nbsp; I respect Eoah, but he himself says he is not a practicing Christian.&nbsp; He obviously does not believe in the Christian faith even though he associates himself with it due to his family of origin.&nbsp; mho<span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by Caringheart - 22 January 2013 at 2:48pm</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Tue, 22 Jan 2013 14:46:18 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :     Originally posted by TG12345 Originally...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71774">Rational</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 22 January 2013 at 2:26pm<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br />Quick question, can you tell me where in the Bible that Jesus (pbuh) said "I am God, Worship me"? I want to see this in the Bible if it's there.</div><br>Did He say that statement in these exact words? No, He did not.<br><br>However, He did make it very clear He is God in other words.<br></div><br><br>TG, listen to your fellow Christian, our friend Eoah. He's telling you that Jesus is not God.<br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Eoah</strong></em><br /><br />Greetings TG12345...and to all that have offered such interesting discussion on this hot topic.<br><br><i>"You are the one who is wrong. Jesus was God in the flesh. He was both God and man." </i><br><br>No, it is you who is wrong! The creator cannot be creation.&nbsp; The bottom line is that Jesus never said: "I am God", because Jesus is creation.&nbsp; Even though God resides in Heaven, that doesn't imply that God doesn't reside on earth, for we can experiance the joy and the knowingness of God within creation through the Holy Spirit.&nbsp; Now the Holy Spirit is not a separate God who is partner to God Almighty, either.&nbsp; The Holy Spirit <b>is </b>God Almighty who is the one and only.<br><br>When Jesus said: "I and my father are one" it is because he is connected to God through the Holy Spirit.&nbsp; Now, in that sentence it only seems like the Holy Spirit is a separate from God Almighty in Heaven.&nbsp; God in Heaven and God on Earth (Holy Spirit) is a totally seamless awesome universal one being that is totally beyond our comprehention!!!&nbsp; But, I love him and I live by him.&nbsp; And Jesus is my spiritual role model, but even though I am a Christian, Prophet Mohammed is my spiritual role model too.&nbsp; God bless them both!<br><br>There is nothing in the Bible that equates God as 3; there is nothing in the Bible that equates God with 2.&nbsp; But, over and over in the bible God is one all the way, baby!&nbsp; And the Quran backs that up over and over again that the Bible is true in the statement that God is one!&nbsp; The council of Nicea can't argue with that.&nbsp; And the council of Nicea don't have the authority to say God is 3 because they're not Prophets anointed by God.<br><br>Now TG12345, I might have alot of contempt for them "Jesus Idol worshippers",&nbsp; but, I respect you and love you simply because you are on this forum with the courage to discuss your spiritual convictions.&nbsp; May the One God Bless you.</div><br><span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by Rational - 22 January 2013 at 2:31pm</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Tue, 22 Jan 2013 14:26:50 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :           Originally...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=173184#173184</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71774">Rational</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 22 January 2013 at 1:07pm<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />Stating that one God existing as three persons = polytheism on the part of Christians requires as much ignorance of Christianity as stating that ascribing 99+ attributes to God = believing there are 99+ gods on the part of Muslims requires ignorance of Islam.</div><br>Stop talking rubbish. I can't take anymore in one day my bin is full.<br><br>These are 99 specific Names of Allah, attributes of Allah. They describe Him (Azza Wa Jall). Not a single one of these names "manifested itself on earth as God for us to see", as you believe with your "Son of God". Not a single one of these names was conceived in a woman and later born on earth, as we Muslims believe happened to Jesus (pbuh). Because Jesus (pbuh) is a man, attributes belong to God.<br><br>It gets better…<br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />Since God exists as three <b><font color="#FF0000">persons</font></b>...<br><br>So while one of the <b><font color="#FF0000">persons</font></b> of the Trinity died...<br></div><br>Definition of "Person":<br>1. A human being regarded as an <u>individual</u>.<br>2. Used in legal or formal contexts to refer to an unspecified <u>individual</u>.<br>3. A self-conscious or rational being.<br><br>Therefore by definition, each one of those "Persons" is an Individual, a self-conscious or rational being. <br><br>Definition of "Individual":<br>1. A <u>distinct</u>, <u>indivisible entity</u>; <u>a single thing</u>, being, <u>instance</u>, or <u>item</u>.<br>2. A <u>single</u> human being as <u>distinct</u> from a group.<br><br>Adjective<br><u>Single</u>; <u>separate</u>: "individual tiny flowers".<br><br>So, each "Person" is a single, separate, distinct individual. And you have three persons. You say you worship One. By definition, you don't. By definition, you are worshiping <u>three Persons</u>, three Gods. <br><br>(<b>God</b> the father) + (<b>God</b> the son) + (<b>God</b> the spirit) = <b>3</b><br><br>No matter what fancy illustration you use to define 3=1, by definition you're wrong. What you really want is 3=3. Much easier.<br><br><span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by Rational - 22 January 2013 at 1:26pm</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Tue, 22 Jan 2013 13:07:20 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :  All Christians will go to hell?...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=173177#173177</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=69566">Caringheart</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 22 January 2013 at 11:50am<br /><br />All Christians will go to hell?&nbsp; Really?&nbsp; and what about the non-Christian?<br>Let us examine.<br><br>Man:&nbsp; "Lord I never knew You"<br>Jesus:&nbsp; "and yet you have lived in every way according to what I have taught."<br>Man:&nbsp; "Have I Lord?"<br>Jesus:&nbsp; "You have always sought the Father and now you see me.&nbsp; Do you see that I am the Son?"<br>Man:&nbsp; "Yes Lord, Yes I do."<br><br>and what judgement do you think Jesus will pass on this man?<br><br>You see whatever path one has taken, if they have been seeking God, they will one day see the Truth of Jesus... and yes, Jesus <i>is ,the way</i>, to the Father.&nbsp; Jesus is the One to grant admission to His kingdom.<br><br>Just something to ponder.<br><br><br>You do know that satan loves nothing more than to cause strife... to see arguing for no purpose other than the sake of arguing.<br>Let us converse with one another, not argue over details.<br><br>Peace and blessings to all. <img src="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/smileys/smiley27.gif" border="0" align="absmiddle" alt="Heart" /><br><span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by Caringheart - 22 January 2013 at 11:52am</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Tue, 22 Jan 2013 11:50:45 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :    Originally posted by RationalI...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=173176#173176</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=69566">Caringheart</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 22 January 2013 at 11:40am<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br /><br>I know your faith.<br></div><br><br>But you do not know the scriptures... you have not searched them for yourself.<br><br><font size="2"><span id="en-NIV-26250" ="text="" john-5-39"=""><span ="woj"="">These are the very Scriptures that testify about <font size="2">M</font>e,</span></span> <span id="en-NIV-26251" ="text="" john-5-40"=""><span ="woj"=""><sup ="versenum"="">40&nbsp;</sup>yet you refuse to come to <font size="2">M</font>e to have life.</span></span></font><font size="2"> <span id="en-NIV-26254" ="text="" john-5-43"=""><span ="woj"=""><sup ="versenum"="">43&nbsp;</sup>I have come in my Father’s name, and you do not accept me; but if someone else comes in his own name, you will accept him.</span></span>&nbsp;<span id="en-NIV-26255" ="text="" john-5-44"=""><span ="woj"=""></span></span></font><font size="2"></font><font size="2"> <span id="en-NIV-26257" ="text="" john-5-46"=""><span ="woj"=""><sup ="versenum"="">46&nbsp;</sup>If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me.</span></span> </font><span id="en-NIV-26258" ="text="" john-5-47"=""><span ="woj"=""><font size="2"><sup ="versenum"="">47&nbsp;</sup>But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?”&nbsp; (the words of Jesus)</font></span></span><p><br></p><p><span ="text="" john-5-31"=""><span ="woj"=""><sup ="versenum"="">31&nbsp;</sup>“If I testify about myself, my testimony is not true.</span></span> <span id="en-NIV-26243" ="text="" john-5-32"=""><span ="woj"=""><sup ="versenum"="">32&nbsp;</sup>There is another who testifies in my favor, and I know that his testimony about me is true.</span></span></p>  <span id="en-NIV-26247" ="text="" john-5-36"=""><span ="woj"=""><sup ="versenum"="">36&nbsp;</sup>“I have testimony weightier than that of John. For the works that the Father has given me to finish—the very works that I am doing—testify that the Father has sent me.</span></span>&nbsp; (the words of Jesus)<br><br><br>The new testament is concealed in the old (the prophesy of Jesus to come)<br>and the old testament is revealed in the new (the coming of Jesus reveals what was hidden in the old testament)<br><span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by Caringheart - 22 January 2013 at 11:42am</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Tue, 22 Jan 2013 11:40:56 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :   Originally posted by Rational Have...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=173174#173174</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=69566">Caringheart</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 22 January 2013 at 11:19am<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br /><br>Have you lived with a muslim? Have you experienced how a muslim worships God?<br></div><br><br>Hi Rational,<br><br>It's funny you asked that question because I have sometimes thought that the muslim 'lifestyle' would suit me very well.<br><br>Salaam,<br>CH<br>]]>
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   <pubDate>Tue, 22 Jan 2013 11:19:30 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL : what a hot topic. 9 pages in a...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=173170#173170</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=67758">Mahdi The Seeke</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 22 January 2013 at 9:44am<br /><br />what a hot topic. 9 pages in a day.]]>
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   <pubDate>Tue, 22 Jan 2013 09:44:18 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :   Originally posted by Reepicheepnospam001...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=173165#173165</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=70404">Abu Loren</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 22 January 2013 at 8:46am<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Reepicheep</strong></em><br /><br /><strong>nospam001 wrote: 3 modulo 2 = 1 in the sense that 1 is the <em>remainder</em> after division...</strong> <div>&nbsp;</div><div>You are of course correct.&nbsp; Clearly you are more than just a pretty face.&nbsp; I should have been more careful in my equations.</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>OK, how about this for an explanation.&nbsp; In the following equation:</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div><strong><font color="#ff0000">3</font> modulo 2 = <font color="#ff0000">1</font></strong></div><div><strong></strong>&nbsp;</div><div>I was clearly in error in claiming that the two numbers in red above are equivalent.&nbsp; But consider the following two equations:</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div><strong><font color="#ff0000">1</font> modulo 2 = 1</strong></div><div><strong><font color="#ff0000">3 </font>modulo 2 = 1</strong></div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>Here, the numbers 1 and 3 in red are equivalent.&nbsp; Or, combining these statements into one, we get:</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div><strong>3 &#8801; 1&nbsp;&nbsp; (mod 2)</strong></div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>So, lets make this&nbsp;equation my mathematical analogy for the Trinity.</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>(I hope this equation reads OK at your end; I tried to insert that weird symbol consisting of three parallel horizontal lines, and had difficulty doing so)</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>(EDIT: hey, it just occured to me that the weird symbol consists of THREE horizontal lines.&nbsp; Doesn't that make my equation twice as convincing as an argument proving the existance of the Trinity???)</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div><strong>********************</strong></div><div><strong></strong>&nbsp;</div><div><strong>nospam001 wrote, in reference to a post by Caringheart: As for the 'trinity' of fundamental forces, weak, strong and electromagnetic, What about gravity?&nbsp; </strong></div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>Actually, I&nbsp;really like Caringheart's analogy.&nbsp; I believe that the first three forces discovered by humans were electricity, magnetism, and gravity.&nbsp; We now&nbsp;know that electricity and magnetism are, in fact, the same force.&nbsp; If science ever does come up with a TOE ("theory of everything"), then we will have proven that gravity, electricity, and magnetism are all the same force.</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>So, then, are these three forces or one force?&nbsp; In the Trinity, are there 3 gods or 1 god?&nbsp; I think the analogy is&nbsp;quite good.</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>Of course, this analogy ignores the existance of the weak and strong forces, just as my&nbsp;modulo analogy ignores the fact that:</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>5 mod 2&nbsp;= 3 mod&nbsp;2</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>But that's the thing about analogies: they always break down at some point, and we must be careful not to&nbsp;take them too far.</div><div>&nbsp;</div></div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>You guys CANNOT be serious! Do you know how stoopid you guys look? All this science has clouded your brains.</div>]]>
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   <pubDate>Tue, 22 Jan 2013 08:46:27 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL : nospam001 wrote: 3 modulo 2 =...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=173160#173160</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=55605">Reepicheep</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 22 January 2013 at 6:16am<br /><br /><strong>nospam001 wrote: 3 modulo 2 = 1 in the sense that 1 is the <EM>remainder</EM> after division...</strong> <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>You are of course correct.&nbsp; Clearly you are more than just a pretty face.&nbsp; I should have been more careful in my equations.</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>OK, how about this for an explanation.&nbsp; In the following equation:</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV><strong><FONT color=#ff0000>3</FONT> modulo 2 = <FONT color=#ff0000>1</FONT></strong></DIV><DIV><strong></strong>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>I was clearly in error in claiming that the two numbers in red above are equivalent.&nbsp; But consider the following two equations:</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV><strong><FONT color=#ff0000>1</FONT> modulo 2 = 1</strong></DIV><DIV><strong><FONT color=#ff0000>3 </FONT>modulo 2 = 1</strong></DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>Here, the numbers 1 and 3 in red are equivalent.&nbsp; Or, combining these statements into one, we get:</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV><strong>3 &#8801; 1&nbsp;&nbsp; (mod 2)</strong></DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>So, lets make this&nbsp;equation my mathematical analogy for the Trinity.</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>(I hope this equation reads OK at your end; I tried to insert that weird symbol consisting of three parallel horizontal lines, and had difficulty doing so)</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>(EDIT: hey, it just occured to me that the weird symbol consists of THREE horizontal lines.&nbsp; Doesn't that make my equation twice as convincing as an argument proving the existance of the Trinity???)</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV><strong>********************</strong></DIV><DIV><strong></strong>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV><strong>nospam001 wrote, in reference to a post by Caringheart: As for the 'trinity' of fundamental forces, weak, strong and electromagnetic, What about gravity?&nbsp; </strong></DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>Actually, I&nbsp;really like Caringheart's analogy.&nbsp; I believe that the first three forces discovered by humans were electricity, magnetism, and gravity.&nbsp; We now&nbsp;know that electricity and magnetism are, in fact, the same force.&nbsp; If science ever does come up with a TOE ("theory of everything"), then we will have proven that gravity, electricity, and magnetism are all the same force.</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>So, then, are these three forces or one force?&nbsp; In the Trinity, are there 3 gods or 1 god?&nbsp; I think the analogy is&nbsp;quite good.</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>Of course, this analogy ignores the existance of the weak and strong forces, just as my&nbsp;modulo analogy ignores the fact that:</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>5 mod 2&nbsp;= 3 mod&nbsp;2</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>But that's the thing about analogies: they always break down at some point, and we must be careful not to&nbsp;take them too far.</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by Reepicheep - 22 January 2013 at 6:38am</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Tue, 22 Jan 2013 06:16:32 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :     Originally posted by TG12345Did...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=173158#173158</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71774">Rational</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 22 January 2013 at 5:33am<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />Did Muhammad or any prophet in the Old Testament or Quran claim that those who have seen him have seen God?<br><br>Did Muhammad or any prophet in the Old Testament or Quran say that He and God are one?<br><br>Did Muhammad or any prophet in the Old Testament or Quran say that he will judge the nations and decide who goes to heaven and who goes to hell?</div><br>Ofcourse they didn't because thier books were not corrupted like yours. Why are you stating the obvious? Your fabricated book says this <u>because</u> it's corrupt. Jesus (pbuh) never wanted to be worshipped. He is a creation and you should not worship the creation, you should only worship the Creator. If you'll happen to be alive when Jesus (pbuh) returns to earth, make sure you get your facts straight before you walk up to him wearing a cross.<br><span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by Rational - 22 January 2013 at 5:37am</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Tue, 22 Jan 2013 05:33:52 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL : BEFORE Originally posted by TG12345God...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=173156#173156</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71774">Rational</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 22 January 2013 at 5:21am<br /><br /><font color="#FF0000"><b>BEFORE</b></font><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />God chose to die temporarily</div><br><font color="#FF0000"><b>AFTER</b></font><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />The Son died.<br><br>while God the Son was dead God the Father and God the Holy Spirit was not.<br><br>In regards to Caringheart's statement "God did not die"... this is true in the sense that God the Father and God the Holy Spirit did not die. God the Son died.<br><br>The Father, the Holy Spirit, the Son are one God. The Son died. The Father and the Holy Spirit did not. <br><br>So while one of the persons of the Trinity died, the other two did not. God both died and was alive at the same time.<br></div><br><img src="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/smileys/smiley5.gif" border="0" align="absmiddle" alt="C&#111;nfused" /><br><br>]]>
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   <pubDate>Tue, 22 Jan 2013 05:21:07 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :   Originally posted by Rational   Originally...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=173153#173153</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71711">TG12345</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 22 January 2013 at 4:59am<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />Since God exists as three persons, while God the Son was dead God the Father and God the Holy Spirit was not</div><br>It's depressing to see people thinking they believe in one God but then come out with this nonsense. Read the verse that Abu Loren cited:<br><br>"<span id="t-2-135" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><span ="ayatext"="">They say, "Be Jews or Christians &#091;so&#093; you will be guided." Say, "Rather, &#091;we follow&#093; the religion of Abraham, inclining toward truth, <b>and he was not of the</b> <b>polytheists</b>."</span> <span ="ayanumber"="">(<a href="http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/2:135" target="_blank">135</a>)</span></span></span><br></div><br>A polytheist is someone who believes in more than one God. We believe in one God, who has revealed Himself as three persons.<br><br>What is depressing (more amusing than depressing, actually) is the misunderstanding some Muslims clearly have of Christian beliefs.<br><br>Stating that one God existing as three persons = polytheism on the part of Christians requires as much ignorance of Christianity as stating that ascribing 99+ attributes to God = believing there are 99+ gods on the part of Muslims requires ignorance of Islam.<br>&nbsp;<br><br>]]>
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   <pubDate>Tue, 22 Jan 2013 04:59:55 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :   Originally posted by Abu Loren  The...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=173152#173152</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71711">TG12345</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 22 January 2013 at 4:56am<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Abu Loren</strong></em><br /><br />The following is for preacher TG12345 read and UNDERSTAND.<div>&nbsp;</div><div><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-line-height-alt: 13.5pt;" ="ms&#111;normal"=""><span style="font-family: &quot;Georgia&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;; font-size: 18pt; mso-fareast-font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;; mso-bidi-font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;; mso-ansi-: EN;" lang="EN">Sahih International<!--?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /--><o:p></o:p></span></p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 13.5pt;" ="ms&#111;normal"=""><span style="font-family: &quot;Georgia&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;; font-size: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;; mso-bidi-font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;; mso-ansi-: EN;" lang="EN"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt;" ="ms&#111;normal"=""><span style="line-height: 115%; font-family: &quot;Arial Narrow&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; font-size: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;; mso-bidi-font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;; mso-ansi-: EN;" lang="EN">Neither those whodisbelieve from the People of the Scripture nor the polytheists wish that anygood should be sent down to you from your Lord. But Allah selects for His mercywhom He wills, and Allah is the possessor of great bounty. 2:105<o:p></o:p></span></p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="ms&#111;normal"=""><span style="font-family: &quot;Arial Narrow&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; font-size: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;; mso-bidi-font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;; mso-ansi-: EN;" lang="EN">Many of the People of the Scripture wish they could turnyou back to disbelief after you have believed, out of envy from themselves&#091;even&#093; after the truth has become clear to them. So pardon and overlook untilAllah delivers His command. Indeed, Allah is over all things competent. 2:109<o:p></o:p></span></p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="ms&#111;normal"=""><span style="font-family: &quot;Arial Narrow&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; font-size: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;; mso-bidi-font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;; mso-ansi-: EN;" lang="EN"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="ms&#111;normal"=""><span style="font-family: &quot;Arial Narrow&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;" lang="EN">And they say, "None will enter Paradise except onewho is a Jew or a Christian." That is &#091;merely&#093; their wishful thinking,Say, "Produce your proof, if you should be truthful."</span><font face="Calibri"><font size="3"> 2:111<o:p></o:p></font></font></p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="ms&#111;normal"=""><span style="font-family: &quot;Arial Narrow&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;" lang="EN"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="ms&#111;normal"=""><span style="font-family: &quot;Arial Narrow&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;" lang="EN">And never will the Jews or the Christians approve of youuntil you follow their religion. Say, "Indeed, the guidance of Allah isthe &#091;only&#093; guidance." If you were to follow their desires after what hascome to you of knowledge, you would have against Allah no protector or helper.</span><font face="Calibri"><font size="3">2:120<o:p></o:p></font></font></p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="ms&#111;normal"=""><span style="font-family: &quot;Arial Narrow&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;" lang="EN"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="ms&#111;normal"=""><span style="font-family: &quot;Arial Narrow&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; font-size: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;; mso-bidi-font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;; mso-ansi-: EN;" lang="EN">They say, "Be Jews or Christians &#091;so&#093; you will beguided." Say, "Rather, &#091;we follow&#093; the religion of Abraham, incliningtoward truth, and he was not of the polytheists." 2:135<o:p></o:p></span></p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="ms&#111;normal"=""><span style="font-family: &quot;Arial Narrow&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; font-size: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;; mso-bidi-font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;; mso-ansi-: EN;" lang="EN"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="ms&#111;normal"=""><span style="font-family: &quot;Arial Narrow&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;" lang="EN">Say, &#091;O Muhammad&#093;, "Do you argue with us about Allahwhile He is our Lord and your Lord? For us are our deeds, and for you are yourdeeds. And we are sincere &#091;in deed and intention&#093; to Him."</span><font face="Calibri"><font size="3"> <o:p></o:p></font></font></p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="ms&#111;normal"=""><span style="font-family: &quot;Arial Narrow&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;" lang="EN">Or do you say that Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac andJacob and the Descendants were Jews or Christians? Say, "Are you moreknowing or is Allah ?" And who is more unjust than one who conceals atestimony he has from Allah ? And Allah is not unaware of what you do.</span><font face="Calibri"><font size="3">2:139-140<o:p></o:p></font></font></p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="ms&#111;normal"=""><span style="font-family: &quot;Arial Narrow&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;" lang="EN"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="ms&#111;normal"=""><span style="font-family: &quot;Arial Narrow&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;" lang="EN">Those to whom We gave the Scripture know him as they knowtheir own sons. But indeed, a party of them conceal the truth while they know&#091;it&#093;.</span><font face="Calibri"><font size="3"> 2:146<o:p></o:p></font></font></p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="ms&#111;normal"=""><span style="font-family: &quot;Arial Narrow&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;" lang="EN"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="ms&#111;normal"=""><span style="font-family: &quot;Arial Narrow&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;" lang="EN"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="ms&#111;normal"=""><span style="font-family: &quot;Arial Narrow&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;" lang="EN">Indeed, the religion in the sight of Allah is Islam. Andthose who were given the Scripture did not differ except after knowledge hadcome to them - out of jealous animosity between themselves. And whoeverdisbelieves in the verses of Allah , then indeed, Allah is swift in &#091;taking&#093; account.</span><font face="Calibri"><font size="3"><o:p></o:p></font></font></p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="ms&#111;normal"=""><span style="font-family: &quot;Arial Narrow&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;" lang="EN">So if they argue with you, say, "I have submittedmyself to Allah &#091;in Islam&#093;, and &#091;so have&#093; those who follow me." And say tothose who were given the Scripture and &#091;to&#093; the unlearned, "Have yousubmitted yourselves?" And if they submit &#091;in Islam&#093;, they are rightlyguided; but if they turn away - then upon you is only the &#091;duty of&#093;notification. And Allah is Seeing of &#091;His&#093; servants.</span><font face="Calibri"><font size="3"> 3:19-20<o:p></o:p></font></font></p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="ms&#111;normal"=""><span style="font-family: &quot;Arial Narrow&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;" lang="EN"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="ms&#111;normal"=""><span style="font-family: &quot;Arial Narrow&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;" lang="EN">Say, "O People of the Scripture, come to a word thatis equitable between us and you - that we will not worship except Allah and notassociate anything with Him and not take one another as lords instead of Allah." But if they turn away, then say, "Bear witness that we are Muslims&#091;submitting to Him&#093;."</span><font face="Calibri"><font size="3"> 3:64<o:p></o:p></font></font></p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="ms&#111;normal"=""><span style="font-family: &quot;Arial Narrow&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;" lang="EN"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="ms&#111;normal"=""><span style="font-family: &quot;Arial Narrow&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;" lang="EN">Abraham was neither a Jew nor a Christian, but he was oneinclining toward truth, a Muslim &#091;submitting to Allah &#093;. And he was not of thepolytheists.</span><font face="Calibri"><font size="3"> 3:67<o:p></o:p></font></font></p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="ms&#111;normal"=""><span style="font-family: &quot;Arial Narrow&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;" lang="EN"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="ms&#111;normal"=""><span style="font-family: &quot;Arial Narrow&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;" lang="EN">A faction of the people of the Scripture wish they couldmislead you. But they do not mislead except themselves, and they perceive &#091;it&#093;not.</span><font face="Calibri"><font size="3"> 3:69<o:p></o:p></font></font></p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="ms&#111;normal"=""><span style="font-family: &quot;Arial Narrow&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;" lang="EN"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="ms&#111;normal"=""><span style="font-family: &quot;Arial Narrow&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;" lang="EN">O People of the Scripture, why do you confuse the truthwith falsehood and conceal the truth while you know &#091;it&#093;?</span><font face="Calibri"><font size="3"> 3:71<o:p></o:p></font></font></p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="ms&#111;normal"=""><span style="font-family: &quot;Arial Narrow&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;" lang="EN"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="ms&#111;normal"=""><span style="font-family: &quot;Arial Narrow&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;" lang="EN">O you who have believed, if you obey a party of those whowere given the Scripture, they would turn you back, after your belief, &#091;tobeing&#093; unbelievers.</span><font face="Calibri"><font size="3"> 3:100<o:p></o:p></font></font></p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="ms&#111;normal"=""><span style="font-family: &quot;Arial Narrow&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;" lang="EN"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="ms&#111;normal"=""><span style="font-family: &quot;Arial Narrow&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;" lang="EN">O you who have believed, do not take as intimates thoseother than yourselves, for they will not spare you &#091;any&#093; ruin. They wish youwould have hardship. Hatred has already appeared from their mouths, and whattheir breasts conceal is greater. We have certainly made clear to you thesigns, if you will use reason.</span><font face="Calibri"><font size="3"> 3:118<o:p></o:p></font></font></p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="ms&#111;normal"=""><span style="font-family: &quot;Arial Narrow&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;" lang="EN"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="ms&#111;normal"=""><span style="font-family: &quot;Arial Narrow&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;" lang="EN"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="ms&#111;normal"=""><span style="font-family: &quot;Arial Narrow&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;" lang="EN">You will surely be tested in your possessions and inyourselves. And you will surely hear from those who were given the Scripturebefore you and from those who associate others with Allah much abuse. But ifyou are patient and fear Allah - indeed, that is of the matters &#091;worthy&#093; ofdetermination.</span><font face="Calibri"><font size="3"> <o:p></o:p></font></font></p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="ms&#111;normal"=""><span style="font-family: &quot;Arial Narrow&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;" lang="EN">And &#091;mention, O Muhammad&#093;, when Allah took a covenantfrom those who were given the Scripture, &#091;saying&#093;, "You must make it clearto the people and not conceal it." But they threw it away behind theirbacks and exchanged it for a small price. And wretched is that which theypurchased.</span><font face="Calibri"><font size="3"> 3:186-187<o:p></o:p></font></font></p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="ms&#111;normal"=""><span style="font-family: &quot;Arial Narrow&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;" lang="EN"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="ms&#111;normal"=""><span style="font-family: &quot;Arial Narrow&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;" lang="EN">And there is none from the People of the Scripture butthat he will surely believe in Jesus before his death. And on the Day ofResurrection he will be against them a witness.</span><font face="Calibri"><font size="3"> 4:159<o:p></o:p></font></font></p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="ms&#111;normal"=""><span style="font-family: &quot;Arial Narrow&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;" lang="EN"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="ms&#111;normal"=""><span style="font-family: &quot;Arial Narrow&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;" lang="EN">O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in yourreligion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son ofMary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and asoul &#091;created at a command&#093; from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers.And do not say, "Three"; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allahis but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is inthe heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposerof affairs.</span><font face="Calibri"><font size="3"> 4:171<o:p></o:p></font></font></p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="ms&#111;normal"=""><span style="font-family: &quot;Arial Narrow&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;" lang="EN"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="ms&#111;normal"=""><span style="font-family: &quot;Arial Narrow&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;" lang="EN">And from those who say, "We are Christians" Wetook their covenant; but they forgot a portion of that of which they werereminded. So We caused among them animosity and hatred until the Day ofResurrection. And Allah is going to inform them about what they used to do.</span><font face="Calibri"><font size="3"><o:p></o:p></font></font></p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="ms&#111;normal"=""><span style="font-family: &quot;Arial Narrow&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;" lang="EN">O People of the Scripture, there has come to you OurMessenger making clear to you much of what you used to conceal of the Scriptureand overlooking much. There has come to you from Allah a light and a clear Book.</span><font face="Calibri"><font size="3">5:14-15<o:p></o:p></font></font></p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="ms&#111;normal"=""><span style="font-family: &quot;Arial Narrow&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;" lang="EN"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="ms&#111;normal"=""><span style="font-family: &quot;Arial Narrow&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;" lang="EN">But the Jews and the Christians say, "We are thechildren of Allah and His beloved." Say, "Then why does He punish youfor your sins?" Rather, you are human beings from among those He hascreated. He forgives whom He wills, and He punishes whom He wills. And to Allahbelongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and whatever is between them,and to Him is the &#091;final&#093; destination.</span><font face="Calibri"><font size="3"> O People of the Scripture, therehas come to you Our Messenger to make clear to you &#091;the religion&#093; after a period&#091;of suspension&#093; of messengers, lest you say, "There came not to us anybringer of good tidings or a warner." But there has come to you a bringerof good tidings and a warner. And Allah is over all things competent.5:18-19<o:p></o:p></font></font></p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="ms&#111;normal"=""><span style="font-family: &quot;Arial Narrow&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;" lang="EN"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="ms&#111;normal"=""><span style="font-family: &quot;Arial Narrow&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;" lang="EN">O you who have believed, do not take the Jews and theChristians as allies. They are &#091;in fact&#093; allies of one another. And whoever isan ally to them among you - then indeed, he is &#091;one&#093; of them. Indeed, Allahguides not the wrongdoing people.</span><font face="Calibri"><font size="3"> 5:51<o:p></o:p></font></font></p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="ms&#111;normal"=""><span style="font-family: &quot;Arial Narrow&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;" lang="EN"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="ms&#111;normal"=""><span style="font-family: &quot;Arial Narrow&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;" lang="EN">O you who have believed, take not those who have takenyour religion in ridicule and amusement among the ones who were given theScripture before you nor the disbelievers as allies. And fear Allah , if youshould &#091;truly&#093; be believers.</span><font face="Calibri"><font size="3"> 5:57<o:p></o:p></font></font></p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="ms&#111;normal"=""><span style="font-family: &quot;Arial Narrow&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;" lang="EN"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="ms&#111;normal"=""><span style="font-family: &quot;Arial Narrow&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;" lang="EN">Say, "O People of the Scripture, do you resent usexcept &#091;for the fact&#093; that we have believed in Allah and what was revealed tous and what was revealed before and because most of you are defiantlydisobedient?"</span><font face="Calibri"><font size="3"> 5:59<o:p></o:p></font></font></p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="ms&#111;normal"=""><span style="font-family: &quot;Arial Narrow&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;" lang="EN"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="ms&#111;normal"=""><span style="font-family: &quot;Arial Narrow&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;" lang="EN">Say, "O People of the Scripture, you are &#091;standing&#093;on nothing until you uphold &#091;the law of&#093; the Torah, the Gospel, and what hasbeen revealed to you from your Lord." And that which has been revealed toyou from your Lord will surely increase many of them in transgression anddisbelief. So do not grieve over the disbelieving people.</span><font face="Calibri"><font size="3"> 5:68<o:p></o:p></font></font></p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="ms&#111;normal"=""><span style="font-family: &quot;Arial Narrow&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;" lang="EN"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="ms&#111;normal"=""><span style="font-family: &quot;Arial Narrow&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;" lang="EN">And &#091;beware the Day&#093; when Allah will say, "O Jesus,Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deitiesbesides Allah ?'" He will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me tosay that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it.You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself.Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen.</span><span style="font-family: &quot;Arial Narrow&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; font-size: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;; mso-bidi-font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;; mso-ansi-: EN;" lang="EN">I said not to them except what You commanded me - to worship Allah , myLord and your Lord. And I was a witness over them as long as I was among them;but when You took me up, You were the Observer over them, and You are, over allthings, Witness. 5:116-117<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">&nbsp; </span><o:p></o:p></span></p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="ms&#111;normal"=""><span style="font-family: &quot;Arial Narrow&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; font-size: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;; mso-bidi-font-family: &quot;Times New Roman&quot;; mso-ansi-: EN;" lang="EN"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="ms&#111;normal"=""><span style="font-family: &quot;Arial Narrow&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;" lang="EN">They have taken their scholars and monks as lords besidesAllah , and &#091;also&#093; the Messiah, the son of Mary. And they were not commandedexcept to worship one God; there is no deity except Him. Exalted is He abovewhatever they associate with Him.</span><font face="Calibri"><font size="3"> They want to extinguish the light ofAllah with their mouths, but Allah refuses except to perfect His light,although the disbelievers dislike it. 9:31-32<o:p></o:p></font></font></p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="ms&#111;normal"=""><span style="font-family: &quot;Arial Narrow&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;" lang="EN">They have said, " Allah has taken a son."Exalted is He; He is the &#091;one&#093; Free of need. To Him belongs whatever is in theheavens and whatever is in the earth. You have no authority for this &#091;claim&#093;.Do you say about Allah that which you do not know?</span><font face="Calibri"><font size="3"> 10:68<o:p></o:p></font></font></p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="ms&#111;normal"=""><span style="font-family: &quot;Arial Narrow&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;" lang="EN"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="ms&#111;normal"=""><span style="font-family: &quot;Arial Narrow&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;" lang="EN">It is not &#091;befitting&#093; for Allah to take a son; exalted isHe! When He decrees an affair, He only says to it, "Be," and it is.</span><font face="Calibri"><font size="3">19:35<o:p></o:p></font></font></p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="ms&#111;normal"=""><span style="font-family: &quot;Arial Narrow&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;" lang="EN"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="ms&#111;normal"=""><span style="font-family: &quot;Arial Narrow&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;" lang="EN">&#091;Jesus said&#093;, "And indeed, Allah is my Lord and yourLord, so worship Him. That is a straight path."</span><o:p></o:p></p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="ms&#111;normal"=""><span style="font-family: &quot;Arial Narrow&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;" lang="EN">Then the factions differed &#091;concerning Jesus&#093; from amongthem, so woe to those who disbelieved - from the scene of a tremendous Day.</span><font face="Calibri"><font size="3">19:36-37 <o:p></o:p></font></font></p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="ms&#111;normal"=""><span style="font-family: &quot;Arial Narrow&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;" lang="EN"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="ms&#111;normal"=""><span style="font-family: &quot;Arial Narrow&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;" lang="EN">Has the time not come for those who have believed thattheir hearts should become humbly submissive at the remembrance of Allah andwhat has come down of the truth? And let them not be like those who were giventhe Scripture before, and a long period passed over them, so their heartshardened; and many of them are defiantly disobedient.</span><font face="Calibri"><font size="3"> 57:16<o:p></o:p></font></font></p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="ms&#111;normal"=""><span style="font-family: &quot;Arial Narrow&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;" lang="EN"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="ms&#111;normal"=""><span style="font-family: &quot;Arial Narrow&quot;,&quot;sans-serif&quot;; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;" lang="EN">Indeed, they who disbelieved among the People of theScripture and the polytheists will be in the fire of Hell, abiding eternallytherein. Those are the worst of creatures.</span><font size="3"><font face="Calibri"> 98:6<o:p></o:p></font></font></p><font face="Times New Roman" size="3"></font></div></div><br><br>Do you actually believe these verses applies to Christians and our faith?<br>]]>
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   <pubDate>Tue, 22 Jan 2013 04:56:56 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :     Originally posted by TG12345Since...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=173151#173151</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71774">Rational</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 22 January 2013 at 4:45am<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />Since God exists as three persons, while God the Son was dead God the Father and God the Holy Spirit was not.<br><br>The Son died.<br><br>He was raised by God the Father, the Holy Spirit, and by Himself.<br><br>In regards to Caringheart's statement "God did not die"... this is true in the sense that God the Father and God the Holy Spirit did not die. God the Son died.<br><br>The Father, the Holy Spirit, the Son are one God. The Son died. The Father and the Holy Spirit did not. <br><br>So while one of the persons of the Trinity died, the other two did not. God both died and was alive at the same time.<br></div><br>It's depressing to see people thinking they believe in one God but then come out with this nonsense. Read the verse that Abu Loren cited:<br><br>"<span id="t-2-135" ="aya="" ed"=""><span style=": transparent;" ="aya-wrapper"=""><span ="ayatext"="">They say, "Be Jews or Christians &#091;so&#093; you will be guided." Say, "Rather, &#091;we follow&#093; the religion of Abraham, inclining toward truth, <b>and he was not of the</b> <b>polytheists</b>."</span> <span ="ayanumber"="">(<a href="http://tanzil.net/#trans/en.sahih/2:135" target="_blank">135</a>)</span></span></span><br><span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by Rational - 22 January 2013 at 5:00am</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Tue, 22 Jan 2013 04:45:48 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :       Originally posted...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=173145#173145</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71774">Rational</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 22 January 2013 at 3:40am<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />and you should not be afraid to read the Bible.</div><br>I forgot to mention, my father is a Christian. I don't see him as much as I would like. He told me a while ago he thinks he is a muslim. I intend to discuss this the next time I see him Insha Allah.<br><br>I know your faith.<br><span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by Rational - 22 January 2013 at 5:12am</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Tue, 22 Jan 2013 03:40:56 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL : Greetings TG12345...and to all...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=173144#173144</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71902">Eoah</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 22 January 2013 at 3:38am<br /><br />Greetings TG12345...and to all that have offered such interesting discussion on this hot topic.<br><br><br><i>"You are the one who is wrong. Jesus was God in the flesh. He was both God and man." </i><br><br>No, it is you who is wrong! The creator cannot be creation.&nbsp; The bottom line is that Jesus never said: "I am God", because Jesus is creation.&nbsp; Even though God resides in Heaven, that doesn't imply that God doesn't reside on earth, for we can experiance the joy and the knowingness of God within creation through the Holy Spirit.&nbsp; Now the Holy Spirit is not a separate God who is partner to God Almighty, either.&nbsp; The Holy Spirit <b>is </b>God Almighty who is the one and only.<br><br>When Jesus said: "I and my father are one" it is because he is connected to God through the Holy Spirit.&nbsp; Now, in that sentence it only seems like the Holy Spirit is a separate from God Almighty in Heaven.&nbsp; God in Heaven and God on Earth (Holy Spirit) is a totally seamless awesome universal one being that is totally beyond our comprehention!!!&nbsp; But, I love him and I live by him.&nbsp; And Jesus is my spiritual role model, but even though I am a Christian, Prophet Mohammed is my spiritual role model too.&nbsp; God bless them both!<br><br>There is nothing in the Bible that equates God as 3; there is nothing in the Bible that equates God with 2.&nbsp; But, over and over in the bible God is one all the way, baby!&nbsp; And the Quran backs that up over and over again that the Bible is true in the statement that God is one!&nbsp; The council of Nicea can't argue with that.&nbsp; And the council of Nicea don't have the authority to say God is 3 because they're not Prophets anointed by God.<br><br>Now TG12345, I might have alot of contempt for them "Jesus Idol worshippers",&nbsp; but, I respect you and love you simply because you are on this forum with the courage to discuss your spiritual convictions.&nbsp; May the One God Bless you.<br><br>]]>
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   <pubDate>Tue, 22 Jan 2013 03:38:14 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :   The following is for preacher...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=173139#173139</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=70404">Abu Loren</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 22 January 2013 at 3:07am<br /><br />The following is for preacher TG12345 read and UNDERSTAND.<div>&nbsp;</div><div><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-line-height-alt: 13.5pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><span style='font-family: "Georgia","serif"; font-size: 18pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-: EN;' lang="EN">Sahih International<?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p></span></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 13.5pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><span style='font-family: "Georgia","serif"; font-size: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-: EN;' lang="EN"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><span style='line-height: 115%; font-family: "Arial Narrow","sans-serif"; font-size: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-: EN;' lang="EN">Neither those whodisbelieve from the People of the Scripture nor the polytheists wish that anygood should be sent down to you from your Lord. But Allah selects for His mercywhom He wills, and Allah is the possessor of great bounty. 2:105<o:p></o:p></span></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><span style='font-family: "Arial Narrow","sans-serif"; font-size: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-: EN;' lang="EN">Many of the People of the Scripture wish they could turnyou back to disbelief after you have believed, out of envy from themselves&#091;even&#093; after the truth has become clear to them. So pardon and overlook untilAllah delivers His command. Indeed, Allah is over all things competent. 2:109<o:p></o:p></span></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><span style='font-family: "Arial Narrow","sans-serif"; font-size: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-: EN;' lang="EN"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><span style='font-family: "Arial Narrow","sans-serif"; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;' lang="EN">And they say, "None will enter Paradise except onewho is a Jew or a Christian." That is &#091;merely&#093; their wishful thinking,Say, "Produce your proof, if you should be truthful."</span><font face="Calibri"><font size="3"> 2:111<o:p></o:p></font></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><span style='font-family: "Arial Narrow","sans-serif"; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;' lang="EN"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><span style='font-family: "Arial Narrow","sans-serif"; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;' lang="EN">And never will the Jews or the Christians approve of youuntil you follow their religion. Say, "Indeed, the guidance of Allah isthe &#091;only&#093; guidance." If you were to follow their desires after what hascome to you of knowledge, you would have against Allah no protector or helper.</span><font face="Calibri"><font size="3">2:120<o:p></o:p></font></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><span style='font-family: "Arial Narrow","sans-serif"; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;' lang="EN"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><span style='font-family: "Arial Narrow","sans-serif"; font-size: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-: EN;' lang="EN">They say, "Be Jews or Christians &#091;so&#093; you will beguided." Say, "Rather, &#091;we follow&#093; the religion of Abraham, incliningtoward truth, and he was not of the polytheists." 2:135<o:p></o:p></span></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><span style='font-family: "Arial Narrow","sans-serif"; font-size: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-: EN;' lang="EN"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><span style='font-family: "Arial Narrow","sans-serif"; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;' lang="EN">Say, &#091;O Muhammad&#093;, "Do you argue with us about Allahwhile He is our Lord and your Lord? For us are our deeds, and for you are yourdeeds. And we are sincere &#091;in deed and intention&#093; to Him."</span><font face="Calibri"><font size="3"> <o:p></o:p></font></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><span style='font-family: "Arial Narrow","sans-serif"; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;' lang="EN">Or do you say that Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac andJacob and the Descendants were Jews or Christians? Say, "Are you moreknowing or is Allah ?" And who is more unjust than one who conceals atestimony he has from Allah ? And Allah is not unaware of what you do.</span><font face="Calibri"><font size="3">2:139-140<o:p></o:p></font></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><span style='font-family: "Arial Narrow","sans-serif"; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;' lang="EN"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><span style='font-family: "Arial Narrow","sans-serif"; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;' lang="EN">Those to whom We gave the Scripture know him as they knowtheir own sons. But indeed, a party of them conceal the truth while they know&#091;it&#093;.</span><font face="Calibri"><font size="3"> 2:146<o:p></o:p></font></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><span style='font-family: "Arial Narrow","sans-serif"; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;' lang="EN"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><span style='font-family: "Arial Narrow","sans-serif"; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;' lang="EN"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><span style='font-family: "Arial Narrow","sans-serif"; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;' lang="EN">Indeed, the religion in the sight of Allah is Islam. Andthose who were given the Scripture did not differ except after knowledge hadcome to them - out of jealous animosity between themselves. And whoeverdisbelieves in the verses of Allah , then indeed, Allah is swift in &#091;taking&#093; account.</span><font face="Calibri"><font size="3"><o:p></o:p></font></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><span style='font-family: "Arial Narrow","sans-serif"; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;' lang="EN">So if they argue with you, say, "I have submittedmyself to Allah &#091;in Islam&#093;, and &#091;so have&#093; those who follow me." And say tothose who were given the Scripture and &#091;to&#093; the unlearned, "Have yousubmitted yourselves?" And if they submit &#091;in Islam&#093;, they are rightlyguided; but if they turn away - then upon you is only the &#091;duty of&#093;notification. And Allah is Seeing of &#091;His&#093; servants.</span><font face="Calibri"><font size="3"> 3:19-20<o:p></o:p></font></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><span style='font-family: "Arial Narrow","sans-serif"; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;' lang="EN"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><span style='font-family: "Arial Narrow","sans-serif"; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;' lang="EN">Say, "O People of the Scripture, come to a word thatis equitable between us and you - that we will not worship except Allah and notassociate anything with Him and not take one another as lords instead of Allah." But if they turn away, then say, "Bear witness that we are Muslims&#091;submitting to Him&#093;."</span><font face="Calibri"><font size="3"> 3:64<o:p></o:p></font></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><span style='font-family: "Arial Narrow","sans-serif"; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;' lang="EN"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><span style='font-family: "Arial Narrow","sans-serif"; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;' lang="EN">Abraham was neither a Jew nor a Christian, but he was oneinclining toward truth, a Muslim &#091;submitting to Allah &#093;. And he was not of thepolytheists.</span><font face="Calibri"><font size="3"> 3:67<o:p></o:p></font></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><span style='font-family: "Arial Narrow","sans-serif"; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;' lang="EN"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><span style='font-family: "Arial Narrow","sans-serif"; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;' lang="EN">A faction of the people of the Scripture wish they couldmislead you. But they do not mislead except themselves, and they perceive &#091;it&#093;not.</span><font face="Calibri"><font size="3"> 3:69<o:p></o:p></font></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><span style='font-family: "Arial Narrow","sans-serif"; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;' lang="EN"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><span style='font-family: "Arial Narrow","sans-serif"; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;' lang="EN">O People of the Scripture, why do you confuse the truthwith falsehood and conceal the truth while you know &#091;it&#093;?</span><font face="Calibri"><font size="3"> 3:71<o:p></o:p></font></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><span style='font-family: "Arial Narrow","sans-serif"; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;' lang="EN"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><span style='font-family: "Arial Narrow","sans-serif"; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;' lang="EN">O you who have believed, if you obey a party of those whowere given the Scripture, they would turn you back, after your belief, &#091;tobeing&#093; unbelievers.</span><font face="Calibri"><font size="3"> 3:100<o:p></o:p></font></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><span style='font-family: "Arial Narrow","sans-serif"; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;' lang="EN"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><span style='font-family: "Arial Narrow","sans-serif"; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;' lang="EN">O you who have believed, do not take as intimates thoseother than yourselves, for they will not spare you &#091;any&#093; ruin. They wish youwould have hardship. Hatred has already appeared from their mouths, and whattheir breasts conceal is greater. We have certainly made clear to you thesigns, if you will use reason.</span><font face="Calibri"><font size="3"> 3:118<o:p></o:p></font></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><span style='font-family: "Arial Narrow","sans-serif"; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;' lang="EN"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><span style='font-family: "Arial Narrow","sans-serif"; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;' lang="EN"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><span style='font-family: "Arial Narrow","sans-serif"; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;' lang="EN">You will surely be tested in your possessions and inyourselves. And you will surely hear from those who were given the Scripturebefore you and from those who associate others with Allah much abuse. But ifyou are patient and fear Allah - indeed, that is of the matters &#091;worthy&#093; ofdetermination.</span><font face="Calibri"><font size="3"> <o:p></o:p></font></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><span style='font-family: "Arial Narrow","sans-serif"; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;' lang="EN">And &#091;mention, O Muhammad&#093;, when Allah took a covenantfrom those who were given the Scripture, &#091;saying&#093;, "You must make it clearto the people and not conceal it." But they threw it away behind theirbacks and exchanged it for a small price. And wretched is that which theypurchased.</span><font face="Calibri"><font size="3"> 3:186-187<o:p></o:p></font></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><span style='font-family: "Arial Narrow","sans-serif"; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;' lang="EN"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><span style='font-family: "Arial Narrow","sans-serif"; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;' lang="EN">And there is none from the People of the Scripture butthat he will surely believe in Jesus before his death. And on the Day ofResurrection he will be against them a witness.</span><font face="Calibri"><font size="3"> 4:159<o:p></o:p></font></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><span style='font-family: "Arial Narrow","sans-serif"; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;' lang="EN"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><span style='font-family: "Arial Narrow","sans-serif"; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;' lang="EN">O People of the Scripture, do not commit excess in yourreligion or say about Allah except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son ofMary, was but a messenger of Allah and His word which He directed to Mary and asoul &#091;created at a command&#093; from Him. So believe in Allah and His messengers.And do not say, "Three"; desist - it is better for you. Indeed, Allahis but one God. Exalted is He above having a son. To Him belongs whatever is inthe heavens and whatever is on the earth. And sufficient is Allah as Disposerof affairs.</span><font face="Calibri"><font size="3"> 4:171<o:p></o:p></font></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><span style='font-family: "Arial Narrow","sans-serif"; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;' lang="EN"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><span style='font-family: "Arial Narrow","sans-serif"; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;' lang="EN">And from those who say, "We are Christians" Wetook their covenant; but they forgot a portion of that of which they werereminded. So We caused among them animosity and hatred until the Day ofResurrection. And Allah is going to inform them about what they used to do.</span><font face="Calibri"><font size="3"><o:p></o:p></font></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><span style='font-family: "Arial Narrow","sans-serif"; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;' lang="EN">O People of the Scripture, there has come to you OurMessenger making clear to you much of what you used to conceal of the Scriptureand overlooking much. There has come to you from Allah a light and a clear Book.</span><font face="Calibri"><font size="3">5:14-15<o:p></o:p></font></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><span style='font-family: "Arial Narrow","sans-serif"; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;' lang="EN"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><span style='font-family: "Arial Narrow","sans-serif"; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;' lang="EN">But the Jews and the Christians say, "We are thechildren of Allah and His beloved." Say, "Then why does He punish youfor your sins?" Rather, you are human beings from among those He hascreated. He forgives whom He wills, and He punishes whom He wills. And to Allahbelongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and whatever is between them,and to Him is the &#091;final&#093; destination.</span><font face="Calibri"><font size="3"> O People of the Scripture, therehas come to you Our Messenger to make clear to you &#091;the religion&#093; after a period&#091;of suspension&#093; of messengers, lest you say, "There came not to us anybringer of good tidings or a warner." But there has come to you a bringerof good tidings and a warner. And Allah is over all things competent.5:18-19<o:p></o:p></font></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><span style='font-family: "Arial Narrow","sans-serif"; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;' lang="EN"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><span style='font-family: "Arial Narrow","sans-serif"; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;' lang="EN">O you who have believed, do not take the Jews and theChristians as allies. They are &#091;in fact&#093; allies of one another. And whoever isan ally to them among you - then indeed, he is &#091;one&#093; of them. Indeed, Allahguides not the wrongdoing people.</span><font face="Calibri"><font size="3"> 5:51<o:p></o:p></font></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><span style='font-family: "Arial Narrow","sans-serif"; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;' lang="EN"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><span style='font-family: "Arial Narrow","sans-serif"; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;' lang="EN">O you who have believed, take not those who have takenyour religion in ridicule and amusement among the ones who were given theScripture before you nor the disbelievers as allies. And fear Allah , if youshould &#091;truly&#093; be believers.</span><font face="Calibri"><font size="3"> 5:57<o:p></o:p></font></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><span style='font-family: "Arial Narrow","sans-serif"; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;' lang="EN"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><span style='font-family: "Arial Narrow","sans-serif"; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;' lang="EN">Say, "O People of the Scripture, do you resent usexcept &#091;for the fact&#093; that we have believed in Allah and what was revealed tous and what was revealed before and because most of you are defiantlydisobedient?"</span><font face="Calibri"><font size="3"> 5:59<o:p></o:p></font></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><span style='font-family: "Arial Narrow","sans-serif"; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;' lang="EN"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><span style='font-family: "Arial Narrow","sans-serif"; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;' lang="EN">Say, "O People of the Scripture, you are &#091;standing&#093;on nothing until you uphold &#091;the law of&#093; the Torah, the Gospel, and what hasbeen revealed to you from your Lord." And that which has been revealed toyou from your Lord will surely increase many of them in transgression anddisbelief. So do not grieve over the disbelieving people.</span><font face="Calibri"><font size="3"> 5:68<o:p></o:p></font></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><span style='font-family: "Arial Narrow","sans-serif"; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;' lang="EN"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><span style='font-family: "Arial Narrow","sans-serif"; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;' lang="EN">And &#091;beware the Day&#093; when Allah will say, "O Jesus,Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deitiesbesides Allah ?'" He will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me tosay that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it.You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself.Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen.</span><span style='font-family: "Arial Narrow","sans-serif"; font-size: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-: EN;' lang="EN">I said not to them except what You commanded me - to worship Allah , myLord and your Lord. And I was a witness over them as long as I was among them;but when You took me up, You were the Observer over them, and You are, over allthings, Witness. 5:116-117<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">&nbsp; </span><o:p></o:p></span></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><span style='font-family: "Arial Narrow","sans-serif"; font-size: 12pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-: EN;' lang="EN"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><span style='font-family: "Arial Narrow","sans-serif"; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;' lang="EN">They have taken their scholars and monks as lords besidesAllah , and &#091;also&#093; the Messiah, the son of Mary. And they were not commandedexcept to worship one God; there is no deity except Him. Exalted is He abovewhatever they associate with Him.</span><font face="Calibri"><font size="3"> They want to extinguish the light ofAllah with their mouths, but Allah refuses except to perfect His light,although the disbelievers dislike it. 9:31-32<o:p></o:p></font></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><span style='font-family: "Arial Narrow","sans-serif"; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;' lang="EN">They have said, " Allah has taken a son."Exalted is He; He is the &#091;one&#093; Free of need. To Him belongs whatever is in theheavens and whatever is in the earth. You have no authority for this &#091;claim&#093;.Do you say about Allah that which you do not know?</span><font face="Calibri"><font size="3"> 10:68<o:p></o:p></font></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><span style='font-family: "Arial Narrow","sans-serif"; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;' lang="EN"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><span style='font-family: "Arial Narrow","sans-serif"; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;' lang="EN">It is not &#091;befitting&#093; for Allah to take a son; exalted isHe! When He decrees an affair, He only says to it, "Be," and it is.</span><font face="Calibri"><font size="3">19:35<o:p></o:p></font></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><span style='font-family: "Arial Narrow","sans-serif"; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;' lang="EN"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><span style='font-family: "Arial Narrow","sans-serif"; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;' lang="EN">&#091;Jesus said&#093;, "And indeed, Allah is my Lord and yourLord, so worship Him. That is a straight path."</span><o:p></o:p></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><span style='font-family: "Arial Narrow","sans-serif"; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;' lang="EN">Then the factions differed &#091;concerning Jesus&#093; from amongthem, so woe to those who disbelieved - from the scene of a tremendous Day.</span><font face="Calibri"><font size="3">19:36-37 <o:p></o:p></font></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><span style='font-family: "Arial Narrow","sans-serif"; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;' lang="EN"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><span style='font-family: "Arial Narrow","sans-serif"; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;' lang="EN">Has the time not come for those who have believed thattheir hearts should become humbly submissive at the remembrance of Allah andwhat has come down of the truth? And let them not be like those who were giventhe Scripture before, and a long period passed over them, so their heartshardened; and many of them are defiantly disobedient.</span><font face="Calibri"><font size="3"> 57:16<o:p></o:p></font></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><span style='font-family: "Arial Narrow","sans-serif"; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;' lang="EN"><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: 18pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><span style='font-family: "Arial Narrow","sans-serif"; font-size: 12pt; mso-ansi-: EN;' lang="EN">Indeed, they who disbelieved among the People of theScripture and the polytheists will be in the fire of Hell, abiding eternallytherein. Those are the worst of creatures.</span><font size="3"><font face="Calibri"> 98:6<o:p></o:p></font></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font></div>]]>
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   <pubDate>Tue, 22 Jan 2013 03:07:04 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :        Originally posted...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=173138#173138</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71774">Rational</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 22 January 2013 at 2:44am<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />and you should not be afraid to read the Bible.</div><br>My family and I are currently visiting my wifes parents. We visit them a few times every year for the past 10 years of so. They are Christians. The room I always sleep in has two russian Bibles on display. I'm very acquainted with them, even though I don't read Russian, I pick them up now and again and skim through the pages. They really don't scare me <img src="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif" border="0" align="absmiddle" alt="LOL" /> Also on display within the property are many artistic drawings of the virgin Mary and baby Jesus. This is what I have all around me every day while I'm here with my family. I know your faith. I've spoken to many Christians over the years. They come knocking on my door most sundays (where I live) and we talk every time (given that I'm not busy). They always come back for more discussions and bring others with them because they know my door is open to them. I love talking to Christians that are sincere about discussing faith and the troubles in the world. I know your faith. I know what you guys believe in because I live with it.<br><br>Have you lived with a muslim? Have you experienced how a muslim worships God?<br><br><span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by Rational - 22 January 2013 at 3:12am</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Tue, 22 Jan 2013 02:44:02 +0000</pubDate>
   <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=173138#173138</guid>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :   Originally posted by Rational Caringheart...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=173132#173132</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71711">TG12345</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 21 January 2013 at 8:13pm<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br /><br>Caringheart said:<i><br>"God didn't die"</i><br><br>TG said: <i><br>"God chose to die temporarily"</i><br><br>Those statements are clearly opposite to each other. You disagree. Face the facts.<br><br>When you guys agree and sort out your differences then you can recommend the Bible for reading.<br></div><br><br>Salaam Alaikum, Rational. Let me just jump in for one second and provide you a similar example.<br><br>Nothing said:<br><br><i>If I am not mistaken: <br><b>Allah treats Musa as an Egyptian, </b><br><b>but Musa himself bias where he inclined to the Israelite,</b> <br><b>Yet Pharaoh (the new one) reminded Musa that he was one of them once</b> <b>upon a time.</b> <br>In the end Musa given up the Israelite.<br><b>And in the end he was alone, stateless, raceless.</b><br><br>Please don't ask me for sources, that would all over the place.<br></i><br><br>Abu Loren said:<br><br><i><br></i><div><b><i>You are mistaken!</i></b></div><div><i>&nbsp;</i></div><div><i>If you go and re-read the Holy Qur'an then you will know that Prophet Musa (Alayhi Salaam) was adopted by the wife of Pharoah as her own after finding him in the river.You will find the story of Prophet Musa (Alayhi Salaam) very similar to that in the Bible. Therefore, the story if Prophet Musa (Alayhi Salaam) has not been corrupted too much in the Bible.</i></div><div><i>&nbsp;</i></div><div><i><b>To answer TG12345's question, Prophet Musa (Alayhi Salaam) was a Jew who was adopted by Pharoah and the had to flee after killing an Egyptian.</b> Then at the age of forty he was chosen by Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala as a Prophet of God (God spoke to him directly). Then he was sent back to Egypt with his brother Prophet Harun (Alayhi Salaam) to free thier people who were in bondage.</i></div><div><i>&nbsp;</i></div><div><i>Read the Holy Qur'an from beginning to end and you will find their story.</i></div><div><i>&nbsp;</i></div><div><i>By the way, the reason his brother Prophet Harun (Alayhi Salaam) was sent also is because we are told that Prophet Musa (Alayhi Salaam) had a speech impediment.</i></div><br>...<br><br><b>Moreover, Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala says in the Holy Qur'an that a Prophet is sent to his own people, therefore, Prophet Musa (Alayhi&nbsp;Salaam) cannot be an Egyptian. He is also associated with leading the children of Israel.</b><br><br><br>So would it be right of me to say that when Abu Loren and Nothing sort out their differences, I should start reading the Quran?<br><br><br>Christians can disagree with each other, as can Muslims. I wouldn't recommend or disrecommend reading either the Bible or Quran based on the words of Jews and Christians.<br><br>In regards to Caringheart's statement "God did not die"... this is true in the sense that God the Father and God the Holy Spirit did not die. God the Son died.<br><br>The Father, the Holy Spirit, the Son are one God. The Son died. The Father and the Holy Spirit did not. <br><br>So while one of the persons of the Trinity died, the other two did not. God both died and was alive at the same time.<br><br>Impossible? For humans, definitely!!! For God, nothing is impossible.<br><br>]]>
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   <pubDate>Mon, 21 Jan 2013 20:13:49 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :     Originally posted by R...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=173121#173121</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71711">TG12345</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 21 January 2013 at 3:44pm<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br />&#1608;&#1575;&#1604;&#1587;&#1604;&#1575;&#1605; &#1593;&#1604;&#1610;&#1603;&#1605; &#1608;&#1585;&#1581;&#1605;&#1577; &#1575;&#1604;&#1604;&#1607; &#1608;&#1576;&#1585;&#1603;&#1575;&#1578;&#1607; <br></div><br>Wa alaikum salaam.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />God chose to die temporarily</div><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br />Where did He go when he died?</div><br>Jesus went into the earth to set captives free. The Bible does not say where God the Father and God the Son was. Since God exists as three persons, while God the Son was dead God the Father and God the Holy Spirit was not.<br><br><b><font size="3">Ephesians 4:7-10</font></b><br><br><i><span id="en-ESV-29263" ="text="" eph-4-7"=""><sup ="versenum"="">7&nbsp;</sup>But grace was given to each one of us according to the measure of Christ's gift.</span> <span id="en-ESV-29264" ="text="" eph-4-8"=""><sup ="versenum"="">8&nbsp;</sup>Therefore it says,</span></i><div ="poetry="" top-1"=""><p ="line"=""><i><span ="text="" eph-4-8"="">“When he ascended on high he led a host of captives,</span><br><span ="indent-1"=""><span ="indent-1-breaks"="">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span><span ="text="" eph-4-8"="">and he gave gifts to men.”<a href="&quot;#fen-ESV-29264a&quot;" target="_blank">a</a>&#093;"&gt;&#091;<a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=ephesians%204&amp;versi&#111;n=ESV#fen-ESV-29264a" target="_blank">a</a>&#093;</span></span></i></p></div><i> <span id="en-ESV-29265" ="text="" eph-4-9"=""><sup ="versenum"="">9&nbsp;</sup>(In saying, “He ascended,” what does it mean but that he had also descended into the lower regions, the earth?<a href="&quot;#fen-ESV-29265b&quot;" target="_blank">b</a>&#093;"&gt;&#091;<a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=ephesians%204&amp;versi&#111;n=ESV#fen-ESV-29265b" target="_blank">b</a>&#093;</span> </i><span id="en-ESV-29266" ="text="" eph-4-10"=""><i><sup ="versenum"="">10&nbsp;</sup>He who descended is the one who also ascended far above all the heavens, that he might fill all things.)</i><br><br>He also preaches to the spirits in prison of people who disobeyed Noah.<br><font size="4"><b><br>1 Peter 3:18-20</b></font><br></span><br><i><span id="en-ESV-30426" ="text="" 1pet-3-18"=""><sup ="versenum"="">18&nbsp;</sup>For Christ also suffered<a href="&quot;#fen-ESV-30426b&quot;" target="_blank">b</a>&#093;"&gt;&#091;<a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20peter%203&amp;versi&#111;n=ESV#fen-ESV-30426b" target="_blank">b</a>&#093; once for sins, the righteous for the unrighteous, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh but made alive in the spirit,</span> <span id="en-ESV-30427" ="text="" 1pet-3-19"=""><sup ="versenum"="">19&nbsp;</sup>in which<a href="&quot;#fen-ESV-30427c&quot;" target="_blank">c</a>&#093;"&gt;&#091;<a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20peter%203&amp;versi&#111;n=ESV#fen-ESV-30427c" target="_blank">c</a>&#093; he went and proclaimed<a href="&quot;#fen-ESV-30427d&quot;" target="_blank">d</a>&#093;"&gt;&#091;<a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20peter%203&amp;versi&#111;n=ESV#fen-ESV-30427d" target="_blank">d</a>&#093; to the spirits in prison,</span> <span id="en-ESV-30428" ="text="" 1pet-3-20"=""><sup ="versenum"="">20&nbsp;</sup>because<a href="&quot;#fen-ESV-30428e&quot;" target="_blank">e</a>&#093;"&gt;&#091;<a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=1%20peter%203&amp;versi&#111;n=ESV#fen-ESV-30428e" target="_blank">e</a>&#093; they formerly did not obey, when God's patience waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was being prepared, in which a few, that is, eight persons, were brought safely through water.</span> </i><br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br />Did He exist during this time?</div><br>Yes.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br />Did the father die or just the son or all?</div><br>The Son died.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br />If He died who brought Him back? Did He revive Himself? Please explain in more details if you can.</div><br>He was raised by God the Father, the Holy Spirit, and by Himself.<br><br><b><font size="3">1 Thesallonians 1:<font size="3">8-10</font></font></b><br><i><span id="en-ESV-29552" ="text 1Thess-1-8"><sup ="versenum">8&nbsp;</sup>For not only has the word of the Lord sounded forth from you in Macedonia and Achaia, but your faith in God has gone forth everywhere, so that we need not say anything.</span> <span id="en-ESV-29553" ="text 1Thess-1-9"><sup ="versenum">9&nbsp;</sup>For they themselves report concerning us the kind of reception we had among you, and how you turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God,</span> </i><span id="en-ESV-29554" ="text 1Thess-1-10"><i><sup ="versenum">10&nbsp;</sup>and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead, Jesus who delivers us from the wrath to come.<br></i><br></span><b><font size="3">Romans 8:<font size="3">9-1<font size="3">1</font></font></font></b><br><i><br></i><p><i><span id="en-ESV-28110" ="text Rom-8-9"><sup ="versenum">9&nbsp;</sup>You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him.</span> <span id="en-ESV-28111" ="text Rom-8-10"><sup ="versenum">10&nbsp;</sup>But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness.</span> <span id="en-ESV-28112" ="text Rom-8-11"><sup ="versenum">11&nbsp;</sup>If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus<a href="&quot;#fen-ESV-28112d&quot;" target="_blank">d</a>&#093;">&#091;<a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=romans%208&amp;versi&#111;n=ESV#fen-ESV-28112d" target="_blank">d</a>&#093;</sup> from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.</span></i></p><br><b><font size="3">John 2:<font size="3">18-21</font></font></b><br><i><br></i><p><i><span id="en-ESV-26103" ="text John-2-18"><sup ="versenum">18&nbsp;</sup>So the Jews said to him, “What sign do you show us for doing these things?”</span> <span id="en-ESV-26104" ="text John-2-19"><sup ="versenum">19&nbsp;</sup>Jesus answered them, <span ="woj">“Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up.”</span></span> <span id="en-ESV-26105" ="text John-2-20"><sup ="versenum">20&nbsp;</sup>The Jews then said, “It has taken forty-six years to build this temple,<a href="&quot;#fen-ESV-26105c&quot;" target="_blank">c</a>&#093;">&#091;<a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john%202&amp;versi&#111;n=ESV#fen-ESV-26105c" target="_blank">c</a>&#093;</sup> and will you raise it up in three days?”</span> <span id="en-ESV-26106" ="text John-2-21"><sup ="versenum">21&nbsp;</sup>But he was speaking about the temple of his body.</span> <span id="en-ESV-26107" ="text John-2-22"><sup ="versenum">22&nbsp;</sup>When therefore he was raised from the dead, his disciples remembered that he had said this, and they believed the Scripture and the word that Jesus had spoken.</span></i></p><br><font size="3"><b>John 10:7-18</b></font><br><p><i><span id="en-ESV-26477" ="text John-10-7"><sup ="versenum">7&nbsp;</sup>So Jesus again said to them, <span ="woj">“Truly, truly, I say to you, I am the door of the sheep.</span></span> <span id="en-ESV-26478" ="text John-10-8"><span ="woj"><sup ="versenum">8&nbsp;</sup>All who came before me are thieves and robbers, but the sheep did not listen to them.</span></span> <span id="en-ESV-26479" ="text John-10-9"><span ="woj"><sup ="versenum">9&nbsp;</sup>I am the door. If anyone enters by me, he will be saved and will go in and out and find pasture.</span></span> <span id="en-ESV-26480" ="text John-10-10"><span ="woj"><sup ="versenum">10&nbsp;</sup>The thief comes only to steal and kill and destroy. I came that they may have life and have it abundantly.</span></span> <span id="en-ESV-26481" ="text John-10-11"><span ="woj"><sup ="versenum">11&nbsp;</sup>I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep.</span></span> <span id="en-ESV-26482" ="text John-10-12"><span ="woj"><sup ="versenum">12&nbsp;</sup>He who is a hired hand and not a shepherd, who does not own the sheep, sees the wolf coming and leaves the sheep and flees, and the wolf snatches them and scatters them.</span></span> <span id="en-ESV-26483" ="text John-10-13"><span ="woj"><sup ="versenum">13&nbsp;</sup>He flees because he is a hired hand and cares nothing for the sheep.</span></span> <span id="en-ESV-26484" ="text John-10-14"><span ="woj"><sup ="versenum">14&nbsp;</sup>I am the good shepherd. I know my own and my own know me,</span></span> <span id="en-ESV-26485" ="text John-10-15"><span ="woj"><sup ="versenum">15&nbsp;</sup>just as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep.</span></span> <span id="en-ESV-26486" ="text John-10-16"><span ="woj"><sup ="versenum">16&nbsp;</sup>And I have other sheep that are not of this fold. I must bring them also, and they will listen to my voice. So there will be one flock, one shepherd.</span></span> <span id="en-ESV-26487" ="text John-10-17"><span ="woj"><sup ="versenum">17&nbsp;</sup>For this reason the Father loves me, because I lay down my life that I may take it up again.</span></span> <span id="en-ESV-26488" ="text John-10-18"><span ="woj"><sup ="versenum">18&nbsp;</sup>No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father.”</span></span></i></p><p><span id="en-ESV-26488" ="text John-10-18"><span ="woj"><br></span></span></p><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />That's funny, because I never said God is any of the things you describe.</div><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br />I should've been clearer. I meant Christians in general saying this.</div><br>As I haven't said such a thing, I will move on.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />Where did I say God allowed others to kill Him because He "needed a backup plan"? Where did I say He needed to do that? Please do us both a favour and don't put words in my mouth.</div><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br />I said:<br>"It's as if God needed a backup plan so he killed himself to save humanity, those sinful creatures."<br>I didn't say you said it. This is the impression I get from the Christian believe.</div><br>Sorry, I misinterpreted you. I can tell you that as a Christian, I do not believe God "needed" a "backup plan". He did this all on His own free will.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />He chose to do all these things</div><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br />He chooses to do things that don't make much sense. That's not sensible.</div><br>That don't make sense according to you. It makes no sense to me why God would send tens of thousands of prophets into the world and only allow the message of one of them to not get corrupted. It also makes no sense to me why He would allow men to physically discipline their wives..<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />Really? Then why have you been unable to refute the points I brought up?</div><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br />What points are you talking about? The Trinity or God killing himself?</div><br>The points about the Quran contradicting Muhammad's claim that before him all prophets were sent to their nation only, while the Quran states clearly that the Jewish Moses was sent to the Egyptian Pharaoh. Another interesting point is the Quran's statement that milk is good for those who drink it, while fact is that there are people in the world who are killed by it. Just some of many things that are mistakes in your faith.<br><br>Regarding the Trinity, what do you want me to clarify about it?<br><br>I don't believe God killed Himself, but that He allowed others to crucify Him.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />Have you read the whole Bible, Rational? All of it?</div><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br />To say that I held the bible and read it cover to cover, then No. I don't have the interest in reading it all. The fundamental parts of worship are flawed from the outset, namely the Trinity and God dying for our sins. I don't see the need to go further than that. If those can't be justified then the Bible is flawed.</div><br>If you are going to criticize Christian beliefs without even reading the Bible, then kindly don't get upset when I make criticisms of Islam based on what I have already read (and am continuing to read) from the Quran. <br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br />On the other hand, you have nothing as significant against the glorious Quran. Your claims are baseless.</div><br>Which of my claims? You have yet to disprove one of them.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br />For this reason I'm asking you to read the entire Quran for your own benefit.</div><br>I am reading it. However, seeing as you feel free to discuss my faith while not reading the Bible, I will continue to discuss yours as I read into yours.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br />Quick question, can you tell me where in the Bible that Jesus (pbuh) said "I am God, Worship me"? I want to see this in the Bible if it's there.</div><br>Did He say that statement in these exact words? No, He did not.<br><br>However, He did make it very clear He is God in other words.<br><br><b><font size="5">John 14:5-14<br></font></b><p><i><span><sup>5&nbsp;</sup>Thomas said to him, “Lord, we don’t know where you are going, so how can we know the way?”</span></i></p><i> </i><p><i><span id="en-NIV-26675"><sup>6&nbsp;</sup>Jesus answered, <span>“I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.</span></span> <span id="en-NIV-26676"><span><sup>7&nbsp;</sup>If you really know me, you will know<a href="http://www.islamicity.com/forum/#fen-NIV-26676b" target="_blank">b</a>&#093;"&gt;&#091;<a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John%2014&amp;versi&#111;n=NIV#fen-NIV-26676b" target="_blank">b</a>&#093; my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”</span></span></i></p><i> </i><p><i><span id="en-NIV-26677"><sup>8&nbsp;</sup>Philip said, “Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough for us.”</span></i></p><i> </i><p><i><span id="en-NIV-26678"><sup>9&nbsp;</sup>Jesus answered: <span>“Don’t you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time? Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’?</span></span> <span id="en-NIV-26679"><span><sup>10&nbsp;</sup>Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and that the Father is in me? The words I say to you I do not speak on my own authority. Rather, it is the Father, living in me, who is doing his work.</span></span> <span id="en-NIV-26680"><span><sup>11&nbsp;</sup>Believe me when I say that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; or at least believe on the evidence of the works themselves.</span></span> <span id="en-NIV-26681"><span><sup>12&nbsp;</sup>Very truly I tell you, whoever believes in me will do the works I have been doing, and they will do even greater things than these, because I am going to the Father.</span></span> <span id="en-NIV-26682"><span><sup>13&nbsp;</sup>And I will do whatever you ask in my name, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son.</span></span> <span id="en-NIV-26683"><span><sup>14&nbsp;</sup>You may ask me for anything in my name, and I will do it.</span></span></i></p>Jesus here said that He is in the Father, and the Father in Him. He said that those who have seen Him have seen the Father.<br><br><br><b><font size="5">John 10:22-39</font></b><br><br><p><i><span><sup>22&nbsp;</sup>Then came the Festival of Dedication<a href="http://www.islamicity.com/forum/#fen-NIV-26504b" target="_blank">b</a>&#093;"&gt;&#091;<a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+10&amp;versi&#111;n=NIV#fen-NIV-26504b" target="_blank">b</a>&#093; at Jerusalem. It was winter,</span> <span id="en-NIV-26505"><sup>23&nbsp;</sup>and Jesus was in the temple courts walking in Solomon’s Colonnade.</span> <span id="en-NIV-26506"><sup>24&nbsp;</sup>The Jews who were there gathered around him, saying, “How long will you keep us in suspense? If you are the Messiah, tell us plainly.”</span></i></p><i> </i><p><i><span id="en-NIV-26507"><sup>25&nbsp;</sup>Jesus answered, <span>“I did tell you, but you do not believe. The works I do in my Father’s name testify about me,</span></span> <span id="en-NIV-26508"><span><sup>26&nbsp;</sup>but you do not believe because you are not my sheep.</span></span> <span id="en-NIV-26509"><span><sup>27&nbsp;</sup>My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.</span></span> <span id="en-NIV-26510"><span><sup>28&nbsp;</sup>I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.</span></span> <span id="en-NIV-26511"><span><sup>29&nbsp;</sup>My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all<a href="http://www.islamicity.com/forum/#fen-NIV-26511c" target="_blank">c</a>&#093;"&gt;&#091;<a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+10&amp;versi&#111;n=NIV#fen-NIV-26511c" target="_blank">c</a>&#093;; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand.</span></span> <span id="en-NIV-26512"><span><sup>30&nbsp;</sup>I and the Father are one.”</span></span></i></p><i> </i><p><i><span id="en-NIV-26513"><sup>31&nbsp;</sup>Again his Jewish opponents picked up stones to stone him,</span> <span id="en-NIV-26514"><sup>32&nbsp;</sup>but Jesus said to them, <span>“I have shown you many good works from the Father. For which of these do you stone me?”</span></span></i></p><i> </i><p><i><span id="en-NIV-26515"><sup>33&nbsp;</sup>“We are not stoning you for any good work,” they replied, “but for blasphemy, because you, a mere man, claim to be God.”</span></i></p><i> <span id="en-NIV-26516"><sup>34&nbsp;</sup>Jesus answered them, <span>“Is it not written in your Law, ‘I have said you are “gods”’<a href="http://www.islamicity.com/forum/#fen-NIV-26516d" target="_blank">d</a>&#093;"&gt;&#091;<a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=John+10&amp;versi&#111;n=NIV#fen-NIV-26516d" target="_blank">d</a>&#093;?</span></span> <span id="en-NIV-26517"><span><sup>35&nbsp;</sup>If he called them ‘gods,’ to whom the word of God came—and Scripture cannot be set aside—</span></span> <span id="en-NIV-26518"><span><sup>36&nbsp;</sup>what about the one whom the Father set apart as his very own and sent into the world? Why then do you accuse me of blasphemy because I said, ‘I am God’s Son’?</span></span> <span id="en-NIV-26519"><span><sup>37&nbsp;</sup>Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father.</span></span> <span id="en-NIV-26520"><span><sup>38&nbsp;</sup>But if I do them, even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.”</span></span> <span id="en-NIV-26521"><sup>39&nbsp;</sup>Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.</span></i><br><br>In these verses, Jesus the Father is in Him, and that He is in the Father. He said that He and the Father are one.<br><br><b><font size="5">Matthew 25:31-49</font></b><br><i><span><span><sup><br>31&nbsp;</sup>“When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his glorious throne.</span></span> <span id="en-NIV-24041"><span><sup>32&nbsp;</sup>All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.</span></span> <span id="en-NIV-24042"><span><sup>33&nbsp;</sup>He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.</span></span></i><i> </i><p><i><span id="en-NIV-24043"><span><sup>34&nbsp;</sup>“Then the King will say to those on his right, ‘Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.</span></span> <span id="en-NIV-24044"><span><sup>35&nbsp;</sup>For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in,</span></span> <span id="en-NIV-24045"><span><sup>36&nbsp;</sup>I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.’</span></span></i></p><i> </i><p><i><span id="en-NIV-24046"><span><sup>37&nbsp;</sup>“Then the righteous will answer him, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink?</span></span> <span id="en-NIV-24047"><span><sup>38&nbsp;</sup>When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you?</span></span> <span id="en-NIV-24048"><span><sup>39&nbsp;</sup>When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?’</span></span></i></p><i> </i><p><i><span id="en-NIV-24049"><span><sup>40&nbsp;</sup>“The King will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.’</span></span></i></p><i> </i><p><i><span id="en-NIV-24050"><span><sup>41&nbsp;</sup>“Then he will say to those on his left, ‘Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels.</span></span> <span id="en-NIV-24051"><span><sup>42&nbsp;</sup>For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink,</span></span> <span id="en-NIV-24052"><span><sup>43&nbsp;</sup>I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.’</span></span></i></p><i> </i><p><i><span id="en-NIV-24053"><span><sup>44&nbsp;</sup>“They also will answer, ‘Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you?’</span></span></i></p><i> </i><p><i><span id="en-NIV-24054"><span><sup>45&nbsp;</sup>“He will reply, ‘Truly I tell you, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me.’</span></span></i></p><i> <span id="en-NIV-24055"><span><sup>46&nbsp;</sup>“Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”</span></span></i><br><br>This passage talks about Jesus judging the world, and deciding who will enter heaven and who will enter hell.<br><br>This is what God will do.<br><br><br>These are some passages that show that Jesus claimed He is God.<br><br>Did Muhammad or any prophet in the Old Testament or Quran claim that those who have seen him have seen God?<br><br>Did Muhammad or any prophet in the Old Testament or Quran say that He and God are one?<br><br>Did Muhammad or any prophet in the Old Testament or Quran say that he will judge the nations and decide who goes to heaven and who goes to hell?<br><br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />Please show me where I have misquoted Muslim sources if that is what you are alleging I am doing.</div><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br />I never said that you misquoted anything.</div><br>Then what is wrong with me criticizing Islam as I am learning about it?<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br />Since you have this great interest in Islam you should read and finish the Quran. I don't have interest in the bible or the Christian faith because it's corrupt.</div><br>Yet you enjoy talking about it, even though you do not fully understand ir since you have not taken the time to read the Bible.<br><br><br>&#091;/QUOTE&#093;<span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by TG12345 - 21 January 2013 at 3:56pm</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Mon, 21 Jan 2013 15:44:05 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :  Hi Rational,Just two quick comments......</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=173118#173118</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=69566">Caringheart</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 21 January 2013 at 3:30pm<br /><br />Hi Rational,<br><br>Just two quick comments... <br>as you and I both know, you can not take statements out of their context and hope to convey their full meaning.<br>and you should not be afraid to read the Bible.<br>In fact considering this is about life eternal, you should not make any conclusion without reading it.&nbsp; But it is certainly your choice.<br><br>ever heard the expression, 'you can't judge a book by its cover'?<br>I also never judge a movie, or a book, based on what others have said about it. <img src="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/smileys/smiley1.gif" border="0" align="absmiddle" alt="Smile" />&nbsp; <font size="1">(I might note too, that I very seldom agree with what others have said.&nbsp; The<font size="1">ir</font> judgements are usually far too shallow for me.)</font><br>]]>
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   <pubDate>Mon, 21 Jan 2013 15:30:19 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :              Originally...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71774">Rational</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 21 January 2013 at 1:25pm<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />I do not know that I agree with you, that TG and I disagree.&nbsp; We just have our different ways of explaining a thing <b>which is difficult to explain</b>.<br></div><br>It's difficult because it doesn't add up.<b><br></b><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />I don't know what TG means by 'temporary death'.&nbsp; Perhaps he will explain it to me, or <u>perhaps you can point me to where he writes about it</u>.</div><br>TG said it here (few posts back):<br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />You are the one who is wrong. Jesus was God in the flesh. He was both God and man. <font color="#FF0000"><b>God chose to die temporarily</b></font>. Jesus gave His life willingly. It was not taken from Him.<br></div><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />All muslims do not think identically the same either</div><br>Muslims have the same fundamentals, One God (no father, son, mother, brother, cousine), worship Him non other, you are accountable for your own sins and we are born sinless (no sin inheritance). You two can't even agree on whether God died or not! Astakfur Allah<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />I would have to know what TG said to see if we disagree or not.</div><br>Caringheart said:<i><br>"God didn't die"</i><br><br>TG said: <i><br>"God chose to die temporarily"</i><br><br>Those statements are clearly opposite to each other. You disagree. Face the facts.<br><br>When you guys agree and sort out your differences then you can recommend the Bible for reading.<br><br>Example, If you were looking to move and purchase a new house and the estate agent shows you a picture. Here it is:<br><br><a href="http://im.ft-static.com/c&#111;ntent/images/8430d2b6-35ba-11df-963f-00144feabdc0.img" target="_blank">http://im.ft-static.com/content/images/8430d2b6-35ba-11df-963f-00144feabdc0.img</a><br><br>Would you consider going inside this property after seeing that (house with severe subsidence)?<br><br>I wouldn't, because I want to go forwards in life not backwards. And I'm not even looking to move. I'm happy where I am. Seeing this house made me even happier with what I have. And I would love you to join me too.<br><br><span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by Rational - 21 January 2013 at 1:52pm</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Mon, 21 Jan 2013 13:25:23 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :    Originally posted by CaringheartI...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=173108#173108</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71774">Rational</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 21 January 2013 at 12:30pm<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />I say you are afraid to know the truth.&nbsp; You are afraid to learn that the truth is not what you have been told... and not the one you have been following.</div><br>I'm not afraid of the Bible my previous post was me kidding <img src="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif" border="0" align="absmiddle" alt="LOL" /><br><span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by Rational - 21 January 2013 at 12:36pm</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Mon, 21 Jan 2013 12:30:36 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL : Didn&amp;#039;t Jesus come to show...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=69566">Caringheart</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 21 January 2013 at 12:09pm<br /><br />Didn't Jesus come to show us that God overcomes death?<br>Did we have proof of this, before Jesus?<br>]]>
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   <pubDate>Mon, 21 Jan 2013 12:09:31 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :  Greetings Rational,I do not...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=69566">Caringheart</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 21 January 2013 at 12:02pm<br /><br />Greetings Rational,<br><br>I do not know that I agree with you, that TG and I disagree.&nbsp; We just have our different ways of explaining a thing which is difficult to explain.<br>If TG says God died temporarily, I can see this as his way of saying that when Jesus flesh died, the Spirit of God was with the flesh, so God would have felt the death of the flesh part of His nature.&nbsp; I don't know what TG means by 'temporary death'.&nbsp; Perhaps he will explain it to me, or perhaps you can point me to where he writes about it. <br><br>All muslims do not think identically the same either.&nbsp; That is an impossible and unrealistic thing to ask or expect.&nbsp; It will always be about personal understanding.&nbsp; This is nothing unusual with belief.&nbsp; That is why it is known as beliefs.&nbsp; We all have to come to our own understanding of God.<br>I would have to know what TG said to see if we disagree or not.<br><br><blockquote>"Why should I read the Bible when I have two Christians here giving me two contradicting claims."<br></blockquote>That is precisely why you should want to read for yourself.<br><br>I am led to read the qur'an because of the conflicting beliefs about what it says.&nbsp;&nbsp; No two muslims can give me identical, exact responses about it either... except what they are taught to parrot, about it being the divine revelation of allah to Muhammad.<br><br><blockquote>"I'm afraid because it might deviate me from the truth."<br></blockquote>That's the point.&nbsp; If you have the truth, you have no need to fear reading anything else.<br>I do not fear to read the qu'ran.&nbsp; If it stands out as Truth I will know.<br><br>You bring me back to my original statement... <br><font size="2"><b><i>You should not dismiss the scriptures without reading them for yourself. </i></b></font><br>I say you are afraid to know the truth.&nbsp; You are afraid to learn that the truth is not what you have been told... and not the one you have been following.<br><br>I do not dismiss the qu'ran without first reading it for myself.<br>But then I am truly seeking Truth and want to know Truth.&nbsp;&nbsp; I am not wishing to hide from any part of it.<br><br>Salaam,<br>CH<br><br><span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by Caringheart - 21 January 2013 at 12:07pm</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Mon, 21 Jan 2013 12:02:47 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :   Originally posted by CaringheartYou...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=173101#173101</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71774">Rational</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 21 January 2013 at 10:02am<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />You are correct, God didn't die, because God is not flesh and only flesh can die.&nbsp; God was not the flesh... Jesus was.&nbsp; This does not make them mutually exclusive.&nbsp; The flesh dies, the Spirit does not.&nbsp; Jesus was the flesh, God was the Spirit.</div><br>Sorry but this is the rubbish I'm talking about. Flesh this and spirit that. Now your saying he didn't die but TG said he died temporarily. You guys don't know what you believe. Why should I read the Bible when I have two Christians here giving me two contradicting claims. God died temporarily VS God didn't die.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />Then why are you afraid to investigate for yourself what the Bible says and read it for yourself, just like I, and so many others, are reading the quran for ourselves?&nbsp;</div><br>I'm afraid because it might deviate me from the truth.<br><br><span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by Rational - 21 January 2013 at 10:04am</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Mon, 21 Jan 2013 10:02:15 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :  Greetings Rational,&amp;#034;You...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=69566">Caringheart</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 21 January 2013 at 9:20am<br /><br />Greetings Rational,<br><blockquote>"You can't convince me that God died no matter what examples or illustrations you give because it doesn't add up."<br></blockquote>You are correct, God didn't die, because God is not flesh and only flesh can die.&nbsp; God was not the flesh... Jesus was.&nbsp; This does not make them mutually exclusive.&nbsp; The flesh dies, the Spirit does not.&nbsp; Jesus was the flesh, God was the Spirit.<br><br><blockquote>"I don't need to seek this truth because I already have it in my hands, it's called the Qur'an."<br></blockquote>Then why are you afraid to investigate for yourself what the Bible says and read it for yourself, just like I, and so many others, are reading the quran for ourselves?&nbsp; <br><br>Salaam,<br>Caringheart<br>]]>
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   <pubDate>Mon, 21 Jan 2013 09:20:48 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :  Originally posted by Caringheartcorrection......</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71774">Rational</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 21 January 2013 at 4:37am<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />correction... "because you've been told it's corrupt."<br></div><br>If you knew me, you'd now that I never follow anything before looking at the evidence myself. I don't care how many people are telling something, if I'm not convinced I'm not convinced. Simple! You can't convince me that God died no matter what examples or illustrations you give because it doesn't add up. I can assure you that the Bible in it's present form is a fabricated hoax. I've satisfied this conclusion to myself without anyone forcing it on me. <br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />This is what truth seekers do.<br></div><br>I don't need to seek this truth because I already have it in my hands, it's called the Qur'an.<br>]]>
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   <pubDate>Mon, 21 Jan 2013 04:37:47 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :   Originally posted by RationalI...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=69566">Caringheart</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 20 January 2013 at 7:18pm<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br />I don't have interest in the bible or the Christian faith because it's corrupt.<br></div><br><br>Greetings Rational,<br><br>correction... "because you've been <i>told </i>it's corrupt."<br><br>You really should not dismiss the scriptures if you have not read them for yourself.<br><br>When I heard things about the qu'ran I decided to investigate for myself.&nbsp; This is what truth seekers do.<br><br>Salaam,<br>CH<br>]]>
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   <pubDate>Sun, 20 Jan 2013 19:18:10 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL : Salaam Alaikum, Rational.You have...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71711">TG12345</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 20 January 2013 at 6:45pm<br /><br />Salaam Alaikum, Rational.<br><br>You have asked some really good and challenging questions, I thank you for this. I will be busy for the next 2 days, so although I will respond to your points, it will probably not be until Tuesday or Wednesday. If possible, I will do so sooner. Hope that is ok with you.<br><br>Shukran.<br>]]>
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   <pubDate>Sun, 20 Jan 2013 18:45:46 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL : &amp;#1608;&amp;#1575;&amp;#1604;&amp;#1587;&amp;#1604;&amp;#1575;&amp;#1605;...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71774">Rational</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 20 January 2013 at 6:14pm<br /><br />&#1608;&#1575;&#1604;&#1587;&#1604;&#1575;&#1605; &#1593;&#1604;&#1610;&#1603;&#1605; &#1608;&#1585;&#1581;&#1605;&#1577; &#1575;&#1604;&#1604;&#1607; &#1608;&#1576;&#1585;&#1603;&#1575;&#1578;&#1607;<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />God chose to die temporarily</div><br>Where did He go when he died? Did He exist during this time? Did the father die or just the son or all? If He died who brought Him back? Did He revive Himself? Please explain in more details if you can.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />That's funny, because I never said God is any of the things you describe.</div><br>I should've been clearer. I meant Christians in general saying this.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />Where did I say God allowed others to kill Him because He "needed a backup plan"? Where did I say He needed to do that?<br><br>Please do us both a favour and don't put words in my mouth.</div><br>I said:<br>"It's as if God needed a backup plan so he killed himself to save humanity, those sinful creatures."<br>I didn't say you said it. This is the impression I get from the Christian believe.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />He chose to do all these things</div><br>He chooses to do things that don't make much sense. That's not sensible.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />Really? Then why have you been unable to refute the points I brought up?</div><br>What points are you talking about? The Trinity or God killing himself?<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />Have you read the whole Bible, Rational? All of it?</div><br>To say that I held the bible and read it cover to cover, then No. I don't have the interest in reading it all. The fundamental parts of worship are flawed from the outset, namely the Trinity and God dying for our sins. I don't see the need to go further than that. If those can't be justified then the Bible is flawed. On the other hand, you have nothing as significant against the glorious Quran. Your claims are baseless. For this reason I'm asking you to read the entire Quran for your own benefit.<br><br>Quick question, can you tell me where in the Bible that Jesus (pbuh) said "I am God, Worship me"? I want to see this in the Bible if it's there.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />Please show me where I have misquoted Muslim sources if that is what you are alleging I am doing.</div><br>I never said that you misquoted anything. Since you have this great interest in Islam you should read and finish the Quran. I don't have interest in the bible or the Christian faith because it's corrupt.<br><br><br>]]>
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   <pubDate>Sun, 20 Jan 2013 18:14:47 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :     Originally posted by TG12345It...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=173063#173063</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71711">TG12345</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 20 January 2013 at 3:22pm<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />It is disgusting and provocative and foul to not be thankful to God for what He has done for us. He has created us and sent us prophets, and willingly came down to earth in the form of Jesus Christ the Son. He willingly lived among us, suffered for us and died, so by accepting what He has done for us we can be led to salvation. By denying these things, you are basically showing Him your middle finger and saying "I don't care what You did for me. I am not grateful to the sacrifice you made. None of it happened anyways".</div><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br />Jesus is not God, he is a man. And God does not die. It's really that simple TG.</div><br><br>Salaam Alaikum, Rational.<br><br>You are the one who is wrong. Jesus was God in the flesh. He was both God and man. God chose to die temporarily. Jesus gave His life willingly. It was not taken from Him.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br />You're believes portray shame and weakness to God and this is blasphemous.</div><br>Shame? I also never said God is weak. I said He chose to temporarily let others harm Him and hurt Him. He was at no point less powerful than them. He allowed people to do the wrong things to Him.<br><br>Stating that God allowed Himself to be crucified means He is weak is like stating that God does not throw down thunderbolts on an atheist who dares Him because He can't. God chooses in how He acts. It is up to us to accept His will.<br><br>&nbsp;<br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br />The guys you listen to changed the true message of Jesus (pbuh), they invented an idea. That's all they did. Who influenced them? Satan!&nbsp; Who else but him? It's hard for you to swallow but it's true. It's fiction at best meant to separate you from the truth. That's all it is.</div><br>The book you believe is from God tells people to look into the "Gospel" to find Muhammad mentioned in it.&nbsp; It also makes the claim about a book that no one in history except Muhammad and Muslims ever claimed to have existed and for which there is no proof whatsoever that it was there.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br />You're people are proving this everytime they foolishly attempt to describe a representation of this mysterious trinity thing. One day God is like an egg, another day like a three-headed dog, or 3=1 because Integer Modulo 2, or or or. You guys are stuck with it. It's all about innovation for you.</div><br>That's funny, because I never said God is any of the things you describe.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br />It's as if God needed a backup plan so he killed himself to save humanity, those sinful creatures. Subhan Allah. You've been praying to an idea since you were eighteen. Allah hears your prayers but how can he be pleased if you call Him Jesus. How can he be pleased when you're praying and saying things like "I thank you for spilling Your blood for me"? Unthinkable Astakfur Allah. This is how you thank your Creator, you Sustainer? You think He needs to kill himself for anything?</div><br>Where did I say God allowed others to kill Him because He "<i><b>needed a backup plan</b></i>"? Where did I say He <b><i>needed </i></b>to do that?<br><br>Please do us both a favour and don't put words in my mouth.<br><br>God chose to allow Himself to be crucified for us. He didn't need to do this. He didn't even need to create us. He chose to do all these things. Praise and honour and glory be to Him.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />If I am wrong and Islam is right, I am grateful to God and thanking Him for something He didn't do. If you are wrong and Christianity is right, you are in effect telling God you don't care about what He has done for you.</div><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br />Not if, you are wrong. You are so wrong! You can't even begin to imagine how wrong you are. See I'd never say "if I'm wrong", because i know I'm not, because Islam gives me sufficient sound information to wash away any doubts, unlike you with your trinity.</div><br>Really? Then why have you been unable to refute the points I brought up?<br><br>Islam teaches that before Muhammad, all prophets were sent to their people only. Yet the Israelite Moses was sent to the Egyptian Pharaoh.<br><br>Islam teaches that the Christians and Jews hid the traits and descriptions of Muhammad in the Injil and Gospel... yet Christians and Jews are commanded to look in these books to find Muhammad mentioned therein!<br><br>Islam teaches that God told mankind that milk is palatable to those who drink it... yet a person with a milk allergy who drinks this drink will either get very sick or die.<br><br>Islam teaches that a person who eats 7 ajwa dates in the morning cannot be harmed by any toxin... yet you would never want to test this one out on someone and agree with me it would be cruel to feed a Muslim who lives by the above mentioned diet botulism.<br><br>Islam teaches that people have been decreasing in size from Adam's creation up to Muhammad's time. Yet history shows us that human height in at least one part of the world (Europe) has fluctuated and for the most part risen between the 1st and 6th century AD. <br><br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br />You're not thanking Him (The One God), your thanking an idea. And this is shirk, the only sin that Allah The Creator won't forgive. Fear what you are saying. Fear in Allah and give yourself a chance. You told me that you had doubts before in your faith. That was your heart telling you something. It's telling you it wants the truth, because it will only accept the truth, otherwise it won't be in peace. That's all your heart really wants, it wants peace. With Islam you get peace, everlasting peace and all your doubts are washed away. &#091;/QUOTE&#091;<br>I thank God for what He has done for me... and this is unfortunately what you as a Muslim are not doing by ignoring what Jesus did for us on the cross.<br><br>My faith and trust in God is strong enough to ask Him to show me if my faith or idea in Him is wrong. I have asked Him whether Islam is true. I am still learning about it. What I know so far very much indicates that it is not, but I continue reading the Quran.<br><br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />It is as offensive to me to hear people denying the crucifixion as it is to you to hear people affirming it.</div><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br />That's why I have mixed opinions about debating with Christians on a regular basis. It can get very personal. But in the end it's worth it, given that both parties are willing to demonstrate in sensible reasoning, accept defeat when defeated and not deter from the topic being discussed. Otherwise it's time to move on.</div><br>On that we can agree.<br><br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />However, because God loves you I do not hate you and I will not demean you or insult you.</div><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br />We're discussing sensitive topics here so expect a bit of something from time to time. But if I insulted you I never meant to.</div><br>Thank you, you have never said anything to me that is insulting or demeaning. I was referring to people who act like Abu Loren. <br><br>I expect people to get defensive from time to time, I know I do. I expect people to be passionate about their faith, I know I am.<br><br>It is when people start throwing insults and swearing and demeaning others is when it is wrong.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />BTW I have not been raised with these 'blasphemous doctrines'... I became a believer in Jesus Christ when I was eighteen. Religion was not taken seriously in my family.</div><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br />That's good. You should have given Islam a fair chance by reading the Quran. I'd advise you to focus on the Quran first before you start reading the hadiths. The hadiths are taken as extra supporting material to the Quran. You should read and finish the Quran first. It seems you haven't completed reading the Quran yet still, this didn't stop you from making claims about Islam. You keep making statements about Mohammad (pbuh) having some truths and having some falsehoods, and that he's not a prophet blah blah blah. You haven't read the whole Quran, so please be fair to muslims and finish reading the Quran.</div><br>Have you read the whole Bible, Rational? All of it?<br><br>If not, does that mean you are not allowed to make comments about Christianity and what we believe?<br><br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />I believe Islam does not show God for who He really is, and I believe there are some mistakes in the Quran and hadiths that show that Islam is not from God.</div><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br />Please finish reading the entire Quran and read the tafseer of all the versus to get a good understanding of the whole message. Otherwise don't make claims because you're proving that you don't care about what Islam has to teach, you just want to teach what you have.</div><br>I am still reading through the Quran. The claims that I make on this forum are based on the Quran and authentic hadiths, as well as what is on Muslim websites like IslamQA. <br><br>Please show me where I have misquoted Muslim sources if that is what you are alleging I am doing.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />I believe what is in the Bible to be true, and believe that <b>much of your religion is false</b>.</div><br>&#091;QUOTE=Rational&#093;This demonstrates how you make your claims while being ignorant in the Quran.</div><br><br>This is a conclusion I make based on what I have read so far. <br><br>Have you read the entire Bible? <br><br>Salaam.<br><span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by TG12345 - 20 January 2013 at 3:24pm</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Sun, 20 Jan 2013 15:22:56 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :  Greetings Rational,I shared...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=173062#173062</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=69566">Caringheart</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 20 January 2013 at 3:18pm<br /><br />Greetings Rational,<br><br>I shared this with someone else once before.&nbsp; You see you view the crucifixion of Jesus as weakness.&nbsp; I say exactly the opposite... it took great strength to do what Jesus did... Could you do what He did?&nbsp; Turn the other cheek, not fight back, accept God's will to the very end?&nbsp; If this is strength for you then surely it is strength for Jesus.<br><blockquote>" Allah hears your prayers but how can he be pleased if you call Him Jesus."<br></blockquote>I recommend a book you can read, called The Shack.&nbsp; It's a fiction but illustrates the nature of God quite well. <br><br><blockquote>"It seems you haven't completed reading the Quran yet still..."<br></blockquote>It doesn't take alot of reading the qu'ran to see the problems with it.<br>and only the qu'ran is claimed to be the word of God, anything else is the word of man, trying to make things right with the qu'ran... trying to make clear what isn't.<br><br>mho<br><br>I will let you know if my opinion changes about the 'whole message' in the qu'ran.<br><br>I think islam has taught many good things but that it is also just as far astray.<br><br>Salaam,<br>CH<br><span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by Caringheart - 20 January 2013 at 3:20pm</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Sun, 20 Jan 2013 15:18:50 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :  Originally posted by TG12345It...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=173059#173059</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71774">Rational</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 20 January 2013 at 2:46pm<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />It is disgusting and provocative and foul to not be thankful to God for what He has done for us. He has created us and sent us prophets, and willingly came down to earth in the form of Jesus Christ the Son. He willingly lived among us, suffered for us and died, so by accepting what He has done for us we can be led to salvation. By denying these things, you are basically showing Him your middle finger and saying "I don't care what You did for me. I am not grateful to the sacrifice you made. None of it happened anyways".</div><br>Jesus is not God, he is a man. And God does not die. It's really that simple TG. You're believes portray shame and weakness to God and this is blasphemous. The guys you listen to changed the true message of Jesus (pbuh), they invented an idea. That's all they did. Who influenced them? Satan!&nbsp; Who else but him? It's hard for you to swallow but it's true. It's fiction at best meant to separate you from the truth. That's all it is. You're people are proving this everytime they foolishly attempt to describe a representation of this mysterious trinity thing. One day God is like an egg, another day like a three-headed dog, or 3=1 because Integer Modulo 2, or or or. You guys are stuck with it. It's all about innovation for you. It's as if God needed a backup plan so he killed himself to save humanity, those sinful creatures. Subhan Allah. You've been praying to an idea since you were eighteen. Allah hears your prayers but how can he be pleased if you call Him Jesus. How can he be pleased when you're praying and saying things like "I thank you for spilling Your blood for me"? Unthinkable Astakfur Allah. This is how you thank your Creator, you Sustainer? You think He needs to kill himself for anything? <br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />If I am wrong and Islam is right, I am grateful to God and thanking Him for something He didn't do. If you are wrong and Christianity is right, you are in effect telling God you don't care about what He has done for you.</div><br>Not if, you are wrong. You are so wrong! You can't even begin to imagine how wrong you are. See I'd never say "if I'm wrong", because i know I'm not, because Islam gives me sufficient sound information to wash away any doubts, unlike you with your trinity. You're not thanking Him (The One God), your thanking an idea. And this is shirk, the only sin that Allah The Creator won't forgive. Fear what you are saying. Fear in Allah and give yourself a chance. You told me that you had doubts before in your faith. That was your heart telling you something. It's telling you it wants the truth, because it will only accept the truth, otherwise it won't be in peace. That's all your heart really wants, it wants peace. With Islam you get peace, everlasting peace and all your doubts are washed away.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />It is as offensive to me to hear people denying the crucifixion as it is to you to hear people affirming it.</div><br>That's why I have mixed opinions about debating with Christians on a regular basis. It can get very personal. But in the end it's worth it, given that both parties are willing to demonstrate in sensible reasoning, accept defeat when defeated and not deter from the topic being discussed. Otherwise it's time to move on.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />However, because God loves you I do not hate you and I will not demean you or insult you.</div><br>We're discussing sensitive topics here so expect a bit of something from time to time. But if I insulted you I never meant to.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />BTW I have not been raised with these 'blasphemous doctrines'... I became a believer in Jesus Christ when I was eighteen. Religion was not taken seriously in my family.</div><br>That's good. You should have given Islam a fair chance by reading the Quran. I'd advise you to focus on the Quran first before you start reading the hadiths. The hadiths are taken as extra supporting material to the Quran. You should read and finish the Quran first. It seems you haven't completed reading the Quran yet still, this didn't stop you from making claims about Islam. You keep making statements about Mohammad (pbuh) having some truths and having some falsehoods, and that he's not a prophet blah blah blah. You haven't read the whole Quran, so please be fair to muslims and finish reading the Quran.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />I believe Islam does not show God for who He really is, and I believe there are some mistakes in the Quran and hadiths that show that Islam is not from God.</div><br>Please finish reading the entire Quran and read the tafseer of all the versus to get a good understanding of the whole message. Otherwise don't make claims because you're proving that you don't care about what Islam has to teach, you just want to teach what you have.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />I believe what is in the Bible to be true, and believe that <b>much of your religion is false</b>.</div><br>This demonstrates how you make your claims while being ignorant in the Quran.<br><br>]]>
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   <pubDate>Sun, 20 Jan 2013 14:46:50 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :    Originally posted by Rational Originally...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71711">TG12345</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 20 January 2013 at 11:41am<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Rational</strong></em><br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />God loves you and He spilled His blood for you on the cross.</div><br>TG, how can you say that he is insulting you when you are insulting God Himself? How can you say that Abu is using foul language when it is you that is using the most despicable, provocative and outright disgusting language towards your God? To say "He spilled His blood"? How far can you go? In the name of Allah, He (Almighty) will not be pleased with you when you stand before Him. You must realise the seriousness of what you are saying. You must have been raised with this blasphemous doctrines and it's engraved in your thoughts and find it hard to reason without them. You must abandon them. Your intentions might be sincere but your foundation is all wrong. It's blinding you from what is true. You must give yourself a chance. You owe it to yourself. This is madness what you are saying. I saw you in the video standing supporting the people of Palestine doing good against the oppressors, I only ask that you do good to yourself too. Insha Allah.<br></div><br><br>Salaam Alaikum Rational,<br><br>It is disgusting and provocative and foul to not be thankful to God for what He has done for us. He has created us and sent us prophets, and <i><u><b>willingly</b></u></i> came down to earth in the form of Jesus Christ the Son. He willingly lived among us, suffered for us and died, so by accepting what He has done for us we can be led to salvation. By denying these things, you are basically showing Him your middle finger and saying "I don't care what You did for me. I am not grateful to the sacrifice you made. None of it happened anyways". <br><br>If I am wrong and Islam is right, I am grateful to God and thanking Him for something He didn't do. If you are wrong and Christianity is right, you are in effect telling God you don't care about what He has done for you.<br><br>It is as offensive to me to hear people denying the crucifixion as it is to you to hear people affirming it. However, because God loves you I do not hate you and I will not demean you or insult you.<br><br>BTW I have not been raised with these 'blasphemous doctrines'... I became a believer in Jesus Christ when I was eighteen. Religion was not taken seriously in my family. <br><br>Furthermore, in my disagreement with what Islam teaches, I have <u>never</u> called either you or Abu Loren or any Muslims on this forum or Muhammad or God st**id, or deaf, blind and dumb or called you or your prophets devils or said I enjoy assaulting and insulting Muslims. I believe Islam does not show God for who He really is, and I believe there are some mistakes in the Quran and hadiths that show that Islam is not from God. I know that you see Christianity as false and that you believe the Bible and Christians blaspheme against God. <br><br>You are determined to preach Islam. I am determined to preach the Gospel.<br><br>We are both doing so without resorting to insults against each other. One of us is right and one of us is wrong. I believe what is in the Bible to be true, and believe that much of your religion is false. I am being completely honest with you. I am doing so without calling you st**id or a fool or saying I enjoy insulting and assaulting "ignorant" people like yourself.<br><br>That is how people like Abu Loren behave. And even he admits it isn't right to do... though he falsely blames it on Christianity rather than taking responsibility for his own actions.<br><span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by TG12345 - 20 January 2013 at 11:42am</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Sun, 20 Jan 2013 11:41:14 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :  Originally posted by TG12345God...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71774">Rational</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 20 January 2013 at 10:47am<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br />God loves you and He spilled His blood for you on the cross.</div><br>TG, how can you say that he is insulting you when you are insulting God Himself? How can you say that Abu is using foul language when it is you that is using the most despicable, provocative and outright disgusting language towards your God? To say "He spilled His blood"? How far can you go? In the name of Allah, He (Almighty) will not be pleased with you when you stand before Him. You must realise the seriousness of what you are saying. You must have been raised with this blasphemous doctrines and it's engraved in your thoughts and find it hard to reason without them. You must abandon them. Your intentions might be sincere but your foundation is all wrong. It's blinding you from what is true. You must give yourself a chance. You owe it to yourself. This is madness what you are saying. I saw you in the video standing supporting the people of Palestine doing good against the oppressors, I only ask that you do good to yourself too. Insha Allah.<br><br>]]>
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   <pubDate>Sun, 20 Jan 2013 10:47:45 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :   Originally posted by Nausheen Originally...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=172991#172991</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71711">TG12345</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 18 January 2013 at 9:49pm<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Nausheen</strong></em><br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br /><br>Salaam Alaikum Nausheen,<br><br>I was going to take a few days off and am cutting down a bit on the time I spend on here, but decided to answer some posts.I should clarify what I meant by posting the the verse. For a Christian, believing in Christ means more than believing He was a prophet. It means accepting He was the Son of God and God in the flesh, and accepting what He did for us on the cross, as well as His teachings.I would imagine it would be similar in Islam... Islam means submission to God if I am not mistaken and I would argue that as a Christian I submit (or do my best to, although at times I sin) to God but you would as a Muslim argue that in order to submit to God I need to believe Muhammad was His prophet, that Jesus is not the Son of God, and a variety of other things Islam teaches.Believing in Jesus means something else to a Christian than to a Muslim. Submitting to God means something else to a Muslim than to a Christian.Hope that clarified a bit what I meant. Take care.</div> <br><br>Walaikum assalam TG,<br><br>Thank you for stopping by and giving clarification. I thought something similar, that is why I said we do not believe in Christ as you do ...<br><br>Somewhere on these forums I was told that serving God is the thing that will save us, even if we did not do so in the love of Christ ... perhaps I should make a fresh post on this subject and discuss my concerns when you have more time. <br><br>For now enjoy your break. <br><br>Peace to you!</div><br><br>Wa alaikum salaam Nausheen,<br><br>sigh this forum is too awesome to take a real break from <img src="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/smileys/smiley1.gif" border="0" align="absmiddle" alt="Smile" /> I'll slow down in my responses but don't see myself walking too long away from it.<br><br>Please feel free to start a new thread, I'll gladly respond to it if not soon than in a few days. <br><br>Allahma3k.<br><br><br>PS If I was gone for too long, I think Abu Loren would get really worried and have one less Christian to insult to make himself feel better so I won't deprive him of that. Just kidding! Feel free to start the new thread and I'll respond to your points, probably sooner than later.<br><br>Salaam. <br><br><br>]]>
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   <pubDate>Fri, 18 Jan 2013 21:49:17 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL : I know it&amp;#039;s pedantic and...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71203">nospam001</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 18 January 2013 at 7:57pm<br /><br />I know it's pedantic and tangential, but i couldn't resist...<br /><br /><a href="forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&PID=172836#172836" target="_blank">Reepicheep</a>: 3 modulo 2 = 1 in the sense that 1 is the <em>remainder</em> after division, which might tempt irreverent comments from someone as warped as I am.<br /><br /><a href="forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&PID=172846#172846" target="_blank">Caringheart</a>: As for the 'trinity' of fundamental forces, weak, strong and electromagnetic, What about gravity? Yes, it extends far beyond the subatomic scale, but so does electromagnetism, eg in the form of light. Yes, the Standard Model fails to address gravity, but if that's your point of reference, then you would have to unify the electromagnetic and weak nuclear forces, so leaving only two - strong and 'electro-weak'. Hmm?  <img src="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/smileys/smiley23.gif" border="0" align="middle" /> ]]>
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   <pubDate>Fri, 18 Jan 2013 19:57:00 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :  Originally posted by TG12345Salaam...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=172936#172936</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=8">Nausheen</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 17 January 2013 at 11:56pm<br /><br /> <div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br /><br />Salaam Alaikum Nausheen,<br /><br />I was going to take a few days off and am cutting down a bit on the time I spend on here, but decided to answer some posts.I should clarify what I meant by posting the the verse. For a Christian, believing in Christ means more than believing He was a prophet. It means accepting He was the Son of God and God in the flesh, and accepting what He did for us on the cross, as well as His teachings.I would imagine it would be similar in Islam... Islam means submission to God if I am not mistaken and I would argue that as a Christian I submit (or do my best to, although at times I sin) to God but you would as a Muslim argue that in order to submit to God I need to believe Muhammad was His prophet, that Jesus is not the Son of God, and a variety of other things Islam teaches.Believing in Jesus means something else to a Christian than to a Muslim. Submitting to God means something else to a Muslim than to a Christian.Hope that clarified a bit what I meant. Take care.</div> <br /><br />Walaikum assalam TG,<br /><br />Thank you for stopping by and giving clarification. I thought something similar, that is why I said we do not believe in Christ as you do ...<br /><br />Somewhere on these forums I was told that serving God is the thing that will save us, even if we did not do so in the love of Christ ... perhaps I should make a fresh post on this subject and discuss my concerns when you have more time. <br /><br />For now enjoy your break. <br /><br />Peace to you!]]>
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   <pubDate>Thu, 17 Jan 2013 23:56:24 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :  Originally posted by CaringheartGreetings...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=172935#172935</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=8">Nausheen</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 17 January 2013 at 11:41pm<br /><br /> <div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br /><br />Greetings Nausheen,<blockquote>"Associating partners is a sin"</blockquote>We must be careful to discern what this means... associating partners with God.  Did Muhammad have a divine birth?  and yet you can not speak the name of allah without speaking also the name of Muhammad.  So be careful in your discerning.</div><br /><br />Hello Caringheart,<br /><br />Perhaps you missed my statement in of the previous posts. Whatever I said here is from the standpoint of the Quran. <br />Im very careful in saying what is associating partners ... it may be different for a christian, and that is not the debate to make it clear. <br />According to the Islamic faith associating partners has a definition - according to that definition noone shares divinity with Allah.<br /><br />I have seen your charges on raising the status of Muhammad next to Allah in another message a response to which is still pending ...<br />Declaration of faith includes the name of Muhammad (pbuh) as follows:<br /><br />There is no god but God and Muhammad is His messenger.<br /><br />We don't say Muhammad (pbuh) is god or a part of god or one with god etc, we call him His messenger. If this reads as attaching a status of divinity, then I cannot help.<br /><br />It is said in the Quran that obedience to the messenger is obedience to Allah. <br />But for you the Quran was written by Muhammad (pbuh) himself - thus we can keep going in circles :)<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />"the belief that there is a god besides God"<br /><br />Regarding this,This is what is so hard to make others understand"the belief that there is a god besides God"We do not believe there is a god besides God.  We do not believe Jesus is <em>a</em> god.  Jesus is One with God... a part of Him...the part that God Himself chose to send to this earth, to His creation, in human form,</div><br /><br />According to our faith God does not have any parts in form of flesh and blood. <br />Flesh and blood is His creation, and very much separate from His entity. <br /><br />I dont think its as hard to make others understand as you see it. Because I am reading many of TGs comments where he seems to understand most of our beliefs, including the differences between us and his faith. <br /><br /><br /><span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by Nausheen - 17 January 2013 at 11:46pm</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Thu, 17 Jan 2013 23:41:53 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :  Originally posted by ReepicheepNausheen...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=172934#172934</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=8">Nausheen</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 17 January 2013 at 11:22pm<br /><br /> <div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Reepicheep</strong></em><br /><br /><strong>Nausheen wrote: Honestly, this question it way too technical for me to handle... perhaps the opener can explain his intent further...</strong> <br /><div></div>OK, Nausheen, I think I finally understand what you believe.  To summarize:<br /><div> </div><br /><div>- without defining what the word "Christian" means, Abu Loren has declared that every single Christian without exception is destined to spend eternity in hell</div><br /><div> </div><br /><div>- you then came along and declared your belief that Abu Loren is correct in what he says about Christians and hell</div><br /><div> </div><br /><div>- when I asked you for clarification on what Abu Loren believes, you stated that you're not really sure WHAT he believes, but whatever it is, you believe it to be true</div><br /><div> </div><br /><div>You seem to have placed an incredible amount of faith in Abu Loren, since you have apparently attached your eternal fate to his.  </div><br /><div> </div><br /><div>Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that on the day of judgement Allah finds Abu Loren guilty of blasphemy for falsly claiming that every single Christian without exception is going to hell.  Even though you admit that you don't know exactly what Abu Loren believes, you have nevertheless declared Abu Loren's beliefs to be true.  So, if Allah decides that Abu Loren is guilty of blasphemy, then you admit that you too are guilty of blasphemy.  Correct?</div><br /><div> </div><br /><div>I find it interesting that you have such a deep belief in Abu Loren that you are willing to tie your eternal fate to his.  Instead of putting your faith in Abu Loren as you seem to have done, I suggest it might be wiser of you to instead put your faith in Allah, but the decision is of course up to you. </div></div><br /><br /><br />Reepicheep,<br /><br />Thank you for telling me what I believe.<br /><br />Most people, with the exception of only one or two come here and tell us what we believe. <br /><br />And mind you, I did not go to any christian site to ask what I believe, you guys have come here ... now if you can convince me about what you say, you win. As for now you have even lost my audience unless I like your tone in future.<br /><br />peace.<span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by Nausheen - 17 January 2013 at 11:23pm</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Thu, 17 Jan 2013 23:22:16 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :   Originally posted by Nausheen Originally...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=172928#172928</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71711">TG12345</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 17 January 2013 at 9:35pm<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Nausheen</strong></em><br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br /><u><strong>John 3:16-18</strong></u><strong>&lt;span ="text John-3-16"&gt;&lt;span ="woj"&gt;&lt;sup ="versenum"&gt;16&nbsp;“For God so loved the world,<a href="" target="_blank">i</a>&#093;"&gt;&#091;<a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john%203&amp;versi&#111;n=ESV#fen-ESV-26126i" target="_blank">i</a>&#093; that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt; &lt;span id="en-ESV-26127" ="text John-3-17"&gt;&lt;span ="woj"&gt;&lt;sup ="versenum"&gt;17&nbsp;For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt; &lt;span id="en-ESV-26128" ="text John-3-18"&gt;&lt;span ="woj"&gt;&lt;sup ="versenum"&gt;18&nbsp;Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt; </strong><br><br></div> <br><br>Hello TG,<br><br>I thought you were gone for a while. Good to see you around. Even if its just a few quotes from the Bible.<br><br>Im not sure what you are trying to say, unless you make a statement alongside. <br><br>If I make a guess, you are saying that Muslims do not believe in Christ. <br>According to christian belief, yes we deny - ie we deny his divinity. But according to a muslim belief we do not deny him. We believe (unlike Jews)that he was a prophet of Allah. That he was sent to re-establish the law of Moses. (peace and blessings upon them both).<br><br></div><br><br>Salaam Alaikum Nausheen,<br><br>I was going to take a few days off and am cutting down a bit on the time I spend on here, but decided to answer some posts.<br><br>I should clarify what I meant by posting the the verse. For a Christian, believing in Christ means more than believing He was a prophet. It means accepting He was the Son of God and God in the flesh, and accepting what He did for us on the cross, as well as His teachings.<br><br>I would imagine it would be similar in Islam... Islam means submission to God if I am not mistaken and I would argue that as a Christian I submit (or do my best to, although at times I sin) to God but you would as a Muslim argue that in order to submit to God I need to believe Muhammad was His prophet, that Jesus is not the Son of God, and a variety of other things Islam teaches.<br><br>Believing in Jesus means something else to a Christian than to a Muslim. Submitting to God means something else to a Muslim than to a Christian.<br><br>Hope that clarified a bit what I meant. Take care.<br>]]>
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   <pubDate>Thu, 17 Jan 2013 21:35:25 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :    Originally posted by NausheenQuran...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=172896#172896</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=69566">Caringheart</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 17 January 2013 at 11:30am<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Nausheen</strong></em><br /><br /><br><font color="blue">Quran 5:14 - 17<br><br>And from those who say, "We are Christians" We took their covenant; but they forgot a portion of that of which they were reminded. So We caused among them animosity and hatred until the Day of Resurrection. And Allah is going to inform them about what they used to do.<br><br>O People of the Scripture, there has come to you Our Messenger making clear to you much of what you used to conceal of the Scripture and overlooking much. There has come to you from Allah a light and a clear Book.<br><br>By which Allah guides those who pursue His pleasure to the ways of peace and brings them out from darknesses into the light, by His permission, and guides them to a straight path.<br><br><b>They have certainly disbelieved who say that Allah is Christ, the son of Mary</b>. Say, "Then who could prevent Allah at all if He had intended to destroy Christ, the son of Mary, or his mother or everyone on the earth?" And to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and whatever is between them. He creates what He wills, and Allah is over all things competent.</font><br><br>These verses appear in the same chapter before verse 69.<br><br>The Quran is charging those of disbeleif who say Allah is christ.</div><br><br>I have only just found this, shared by Nausheen... thank you Nausheen... which of course just adds further confusion to the issue, but at least now I understand the confusion. <img src="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/smileys/smiley1.gif" border="0" align="absmiddle" alt="Smile" /><br><br>so it says;<br>""Whosoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right"<br>but it also says that those who believe in Jesus as the Son of God do not believe in allah...<br>there may be real truth in that...<br>allah is not our God may be the truth.<br><span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by Caringheart - 17 January 2013 at 11:35am</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Thu, 17 Jan 2013 11:30:42 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :   Originally posted by NausheenIf...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=172894#172894</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=69566">Caringheart</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 17 January 2013 at 11:16am<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Nausheen</strong></em><br /><br /><br>If I make a guess, you are saying that Muslims do not believe in Christ. <br>According to christian belief, yes we deny - ie we deny his divinity. But according to a muslim belief we do not deny him. We believe (unlike Jews)that he was a prophet of Allah. That he was sent to re-establish the law of Moses. (peace and blessings upon them both).<br></div><br><br>I'm sorry, and I know this sounds contentious, but in all truth(and truly spoken in love), this is known in the financial world as 'hedging your bets'... attempting to cover yourself from both ends.<br>Wishing peace and blessings.<br>]]>
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   <pubDate>Thu, 17 Jan 2013 11:16:30 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :   Originally posted by Nausheen Associating...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=69566">Caringheart</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 17 January 2013 at 11:12am<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Nausheen</strong></em><br /><br /><br>Associating partners is a sin which Allah has declared in the Quran that it is unforgivable. ie if one dies upon this sin. If one repents, then there is no sin which is unpardonable in this life. <br><br>Again, technically speaking ... anyone who dies with the belief that there is a god besides God, then he has associated partners - a sin which will not be forgiven. <br><br>3:55<br>&#091;Mention&#093; when Allah said, "O Jesus, indeed I will take you and raise you to Myself and purify you from those who disbelieve and make those who follow you &#091;in submission to Allah alone&#093; superior to those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection. Then to Me is your return, and I will judge between you concerning that in which you used to differ.<br></div><br><br>Greetings Nausheen,<br><blockquote>"Associating partners is a sin"<br></blockquote>We must be careful to discern what this means... associating partners with God.&nbsp; Did Muhammad have a divine birth?&nbsp; and yet you can not speak the name of allah without speaking also the name of Muhammad.&nbsp; So be careful in your discerning.<br><br><blockquote>"the belief that there is a god besides God"<br></blockquote>Regarding this,<br>This is what is so hard to make others understand<br>"the belief that there is a god besides God"<br>We do not believe there is a god besides God.&nbsp; We do not believe Jesus is <i>a</i> god.&nbsp; Jesus is One with God... a part of Him... the part that God Himself chose to send to this earth, to His creation, in human form, in the hopes of reaching them.&nbsp; God decides to 'do a new thing' in the hopes of reaching the hearts of His creation.&nbsp; It seems a concept that is just too difficult for some to grasp, but not for those who believe in Jesus and in what Jesus said and revealed of the Father through Himself.<br><br>Salaam,<br>Caringheart<br>]]>
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   <pubDate>Thu, 17 Jan 2013 11:12:13 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :      Originally posted by...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=172891#172891</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=69566">Caringheart</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 17 January 2013 at 10:41am<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br /><span></span><br>Caringheart,<br><br>This verse in the Quran refers to Christians who lived before Muhammad and according to Islam's teachings followed the teachings of Jesus that the Quran claims He said and the Book it claims God gave Him.<br><br>There are contradictions in Islam, but this is not one of them.<br></div><br><br>TG,<br><blockquote>"This verse in the Quran refers to Christians who lived before Muhammad"<br></blockquote>Who says?&nbsp; It does not say this in the qur'an.<br><br>I'm not sure how you come to this conclusion... from where do you get this conception?&nbsp; It does not say in the quran, what you are saying... it does not say, 'Oh you Christians who came before I sent you Muhammad'.&nbsp; <br><br>It says that <span>the qualifying factor for belief is<br>"</span><span>Whosoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right"</span><br><br>God's Word... in His scriptures, is meant to be for all time.&nbsp; It doesn't distinguish people of one time from another.&nbsp; I'm not sure I am quite clear on what it is that you are saying.<br><br>Caringheart<br><br>note;<br>&nbsp;the quranic scriptures differ <br><br>whoever believes in allah <i>and his messenger</i>... (we might ask, which messenger was actually meant if this was spoken by Muhammad) and the last day.<br><br>and surah 5 was one of the final few to be revealed.<br><br>Some things to think about.<br><span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by Caringheart - 17 January 2013 at 10:56am</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Thu, 17 Jan 2013 10:41:55 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :   I just want to quote verses...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71698">NABA</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 17 January 2013 at 9:07am<br /><br />I just want to quote verses from Qur'an that in surah an Nisa ch 4 v 48 and in verse 116,Allah says that Allah if wants will forgive any sin except shirk(associating partners with God).for eg when any Muslim says merry Christmas he is committing shirk.]]>
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   <pubDate>Thu, 17 Jan 2013 09:07:16 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :   Originally posted by ReepicheepNausheen...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=172885#172885</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=70404">Abu Loren</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 17 January 2013 at 7:15am<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Reepicheep</strong></em><br /><br /><strong>Nausheen wrote: Honestly, this question it way too technical for me to handle... perhaps the opener can explain his intent further...<br></strong>&nbsp;<div></div>OK, Nausheen,&nbsp;I think I finally&nbsp;understand what you believe.&nbsp; To summarize:<div>&nbsp;</div><div>- without defining what the word "Christian" means, Abu Loren has declared that every single Christian without exception is destined to spend eternity in hell</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>- you then came along and declared your belief that Abu Loren is correct in what he says about Christians and hell</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>- when I asked you for clarification on what Abu Loren believes, you stated that you're not really sure WHAT he believes, but whatever it is, you believe it to be true</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>You seem to have placed an incredible amount of faith in Abu Loren, since you have apparently attached your eternal fate to his.&nbsp; </div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that on the day of judgement Allah finds Abu Loren guilty of blasphemy for falsly claiming that every single Christian without exception is going to hell.&nbsp; Even though you admit that you don't know exactly what Abu Loren believes, you have nevertheless declared&nbsp;Abu Loren's&nbsp;beliefs to be true.&nbsp; So, if Allah decides that Abu Loren is guilty of blasphemy, then you admit that you too are guilty of blasphemy.&nbsp; Correct?</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>I find it&nbsp;interesting that you have such a deep belief in Abu Loren that you are willing to tie your eternal fate to his.&nbsp;&nbsp;Instead of&nbsp;putting your faith&nbsp;in Abu Loren as you seem to&nbsp;have done, I suggest it might be&nbsp;wiser of you to instead put your faith in Allah, but&nbsp;the decision is of course up to you.&nbsp;</div></div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>Reepicheep Reepicheep Reepicheep how underhanded you are! Like all the Christians here you like to twist everything around. Go back and read I mean READ what Nausheen has written. Christians lack that too, I'm afraid.</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>No wonder ALL Christians are snakes in the grass. Dispicable hypocrites.</div>]]>
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   <pubDate>Thu, 17 Jan 2013 07:15:38 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL : Nausheen wrote: Honestly, this...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=172884#172884</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=55605">Reepicheep</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 17 January 2013 at 7:09am<br /><br /><strong>Nausheen wrote: Honestly, this question it way too technical for me to handle... perhaps the opener can explain his intent further...<BR></strong>&nbsp;<DIV></DIV>OK, Nausheen,&nbsp;I think I finally&nbsp;understand what you believe.&nbsp; To summarize:<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>- without defining what the word "Christian" means, Abu Loren has declared that every single Christian without exception is destined to spend eternity in hell</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>- you then came along and declared your belief that Abu Loren is correct in what he says about Christians and hell</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>- when I asked you for clarification on what Abu Loren believes, you stated that you're not really sure WHAT he believes, but whatever it is, you believe it to be true</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>You seem to have placed an incredible amount of faith in Abu Loren, since you have apparently attached your eternal fate to his.&nbsp; </DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>Let's assume, for the sake of argument, that on the day of judgement Allah finds Abu Loren guilty of blasphemy for falsly claiming that every single Christian without exception is going to hell.&nbsp; Even though you admit that you don't know exactly what Abu Loren believes, you have nevertheless declared&nbsp;Abu Loren's&nbsp;beliefs to be true.&nbsp; So, if Allah decides that Abu Loren is guilty of blasphemy, then you admit that you too are guilty of blasphemy.&nbsp; Correct?</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>I find it&nbsp;interesting that you have such a deep belief in Abu Loren that you are willing to tie your eternal fate to his.&nbsp;&nbsp;Instead of&nbsp;putting your faith&nbsp;in Abu Loren as you seem to&nbsp;have done, I suggest it might be&nbsp;wiser of you to instead put your faith in Allah, but&nbsp;the decision is of course up to you.&nbsp;</DIV>]]>
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   <pubDate>Thu, 17 Jan 2013 07:09:29 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :  Originally posted by ReepicheepNausheen...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=172872#172872</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=8">Nausheen</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 16 January 2013 at 10:41pm<br /><br /> <div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Reepicheep</strong></em><br /><br /><strong>Nausheen wrote: Im not saying the christians who died on the true faith of Jesus (alaihe salam) and the true message of the bible BEFORE islam was perfected are damned in hell.  </strong><br /><div>You're still not being very clear.</div><br /><div> </div><br /><div>I'm certain that sometime in the past day, somewhere in the world, people have died who believed that Jesus is God, and who had never heard of the koran, Mohammad, or Islam.  Are you declaring, in the name of Allah, that those people are going to spend eternity in hell?&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</div></div> <br /><br />Honestly, this question it way too technical for me to handle.<br />The answer is I don't know about those who were in shirk(polytheism) before the revelation of the Quran. <br />To clarify further, all christians and all jews, means all of these people to whom the message of Quran and news of Muhammad has reached. This is how I saw the first message on this string. &#091;perhaps the opener can explain his intent further if it was meant otherwise&#093;<br /><br /><br />I can give you my speculation on the subject. <br />It is said that Allah has sent 125000 prophets on earth, and there has never been a nation who has not received a prophet. Therefore, there has never been a nation who has not been told about the seriousness of tawheed (oneness of God). Allah has corrected polytheism amongst various generations and various nations through a series of prophets - and His message against it has always been very strict. He has also punished nations by natural calamities - ie those who rejected their prophets, like the A'ad and Thamud. <br />Thus it seems those who committed shirk, even though they had not heard of muhammad's (pbuh) message, have offended God and have earned hell fire. <br /><br />As for the followership of muhammad (pbuh), only those are guilty of rejecting him who have done so AFTER his message was clearly delivered to them - this is understood by the example of the uncle of Khadija (ra) who was a christian monk. He was a true believer of Isa (pbuh), and he died before Islam was perfected. People like him are regarded as believers in Islam.<br /><br />]]>
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   <pubDate>Wed, 16 Jan 2013 22:41:01 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :  Originally posted by Caringheart&amp;#039;and...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=172871#172871</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=8">Nausheen</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 16 January 2013 at 10:19pm<br /><br /> <div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br /><br />'and if one verse comes after another it abrogates the earlier'</div><br /><br />This is a very lose definition of abrogation. <br /><br />I posted a rather long article on what is meant by abrogation in the Quran under a topic dealing with the verse of the sword - not sure if you have seen it.<br /><br />Also remember, just because two verses appear one after another, does not necessarily mean the one appearing earlier was revealed early. eg; some verses of chapter 5 were revealed before those of chapter 3.<br /><br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />Sorry if I dispensed with formalities.  I'm actually wanting to get off the computer. &#091;IMG&#093;smileys/smiley27.gif" align="absmiddle" alt="Heart" /&gt;&lt;/span&gt;<br /></div> <br /><br />No worries. Good night!<span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by Nausheen - 16 January 2013 at 10:20pm</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Wed, 16 Jan 2013 22:19:38 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL : Nausheen wrote: Im not saying...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=172870#172870</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=55605">Reepicheep</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 16 January 2013 at 9:44pm<br /><br /><strong>Nausheen wrote: Im not saying the christians who died on the true faith of Jesus (alaihe salam) and the true message of the bible BEFORE islam was perfected are damned in hell.&nbsp;<BR>&nbsp;</strong><DIV>You're still not being very clear.</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>I'm certain that sometime in the&nbsp;past day,&nbsp;somewhere in the world,&nbsp;people have died who believed that Jesus is God, and who had never heard of the koran, Mohammad, or Islam.&nbsp; Are you&nbsp;declaring, in the name of Allah, that those people are going to spend eternity in hell?&nbsp;&nbsp;<BR>&nbsp;</DIV>]]>
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   <pubDate>Wed, 16 Jan 2013 21:44:25 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :  Originally posted by ReepicheepNausheen,...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=172869#172869</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=8">Nausheen</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 16 January 2013 at 9:35pm<br /><br /> <div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Reepicheep</strong></em><br /><br />Nausheen, you are not being very clear in what you are saying.<br /><div> </div><br /><div>Consider the following.  There have been many, many, millions of Christians who died without ever hearing of Mohammad, the Koran, or Islam.  You are declaring, in the name of Allah, that every one of those Christians without exception is going to spend eternity in hell.  Correct?  And, if even one of those Christians makes it into heaven, then you agree that you will spend eternity in hell for making false claims on behalf of Allah.  Also correct?</div></div> <br /><br />Oh My God!<br /><br />NOOOOOOO!!!<br /><br />Im not saying the christians who died on the true faith of Jesus (alaihe salam) and the true message of the bible BEFORE islam was perfected are damned in hell. <br /><br />Thank you for asking the clarification. <br /><br />You see, revelations of the Quran took 23 years to complete. During this period, quran has made many arguments to the Jews and Christians - like a live dialogue with them.  Before the declaration that islam is the only true religion, which appears in verse 3:19, all the Jews and Christains who dies on true faith, are saved - this is our belief.<br /><br />Im sorry for the confusion :(]]>
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   <pubDate>Wed, 16 Jan 2013 21:35:19 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :  Originally posted by TG12345John...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=172868#172868</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=8">Nausheen</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 16 January 2013 at 9:27pm<br /><br /> <div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by TG12345</strong></em><br /><br /><u><strong>John 3:16-18</strong></u><strong>&lt;span ="text John-3-16"&gt;&lt;span ="woj"&gt;&lt;sup ="versenum"&gt;16 </sup>“For God so loved the world,<a href="" target="_blank">i</a>&#093;"&gt;&#091;<a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john%203&versi&#111;n=ESV#fen-ESV-26126i" target="_blank">i</a>&#093;</sup> that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt; &lt;span id="en-ESV-26127" ="text John-3-17"&gt;&lt;span ="woj"&gt;&lt;sup ="versenum"&gt;17 </sup>For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt; &lt;span id="en-ESV-26128" ="text John-3-18"&gt;&lt;span ="woj"&gt;&lt;sup ="versenum"&gt;18 </sup>Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.&lt;/span&gt;&lt;/span&gt; </strong><br /><br /></div> <br /><br />Hello TG,<br /><br />I thought you were gone for a while. Good to see you around. Even if its just a few quotes from the Bible.<br /><br />Im not sure what you are trying to say, unless you make a statement alongside. <br /><br />If I make a guess, you are saying that Muslims do not believe in Christ. <br />According to christian belief, yes we deny - ie we deny his divinity. But according to a muslim belief we do not deny him. We believe (unlike Jews)that he was a prophet of Allah. That he was sent to re-establish the law of Moses. (peace and blessings upon them both).<br /><br />]]>
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   <pubDate>Wed, 16 Jan 2013 21:27:49 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL : Nausheen, you are not being very...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=172867#172867</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=55605">Reepicheep</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 16 January 2013 at 9:23pm<br /><br />Nausheen, you are not being very clear in what you are saying.<DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>Consider the following.&nbsp;&nbsp;There have been many, many, millions of Christians who died without ever hearing of Mohammad, the Koran, or Islam.&nbsp; You are declaring, in the name of Allah, that every one of those Christians without exception is going to spend eternity in hell.&nbsp; Correct?&nbsp; And, if even one of those Christians makes it into heaven, then you agree that you will spend eternity in hell for making false claims on behalf of Allah.&nbsp; Also correct?</DIV>]]>
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   <pubDate>Wed, 16 Jan 2013 21:23:23 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :  Originally posted by CaringheartGreetings...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=172866#172866</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=8">Nausheen</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 16 January 2013 at 9:20pm<br /><br /> <div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br /><br />Greetings Nausheen,<font size="1">Sorry if I am seeming argumentative tonight.</font>"Any who believes Jesus is God has associated partners."Only according to your belief... according to the one you believe in... Muhammad.Why was there the need for the virgin birth?You see even what is said in your qu'ran is inaccurate, and incorrect..."And &#091;beware the Day&#093; when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you<br /> say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ?"Christians have never taken Mary to be anything other than human and blessed by God.  But some are confused by the great reverence for Mary, though I don't know why any muslim should be, since they revere her as well as blessed and holy.It is not good to make assumptions about understanding another person's faith.Salaam,Caringheart</div> <br /><br />Hello Caringheart,<br /><br />I did not take this argument in any other light except from the reference point of the Quran. This is how the first message was challenged - using a verse from the Quran. Thus I am responding from the Quranic point of view.<br /><br />Secondly, making images of Mother Mary in church - is it just emulating her? Are they not worshiping Mother Mary? <br />Honestly I did not know this.  Thank you for sahring.<br />However I know that making images/idols is blasphemy in Islam. ]]>
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   <pubDate>Wed, 16 Jan 2013 21:20:21 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :  Originally posted by ReepicheepNausheen...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=172865#172865</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=8">Nausheen</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 16 January 2013 at 9:12pm<br /><br /> <div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Reepicheep</strong></em><br /><br /><strong>Nausheen wrote: The reasoning is based on this fact. Though I can admit it is a very bold statement, one which should create a lot of repercussions, and as muslims we may want tone it down ... however toning it down will not change the fact - it can only change its impact on the listener.  Any who believes Jesus is God has associated partners.</strong><br /><div></div><br /><div><strong> </strong></div><br /><div>Nausheen, just to confirm what you are saying: you are declaring that every single Christian without exception who believes Jesus is God is going to spend eternity in hell.  Furthermore, you realize that, if Allah disagrees with you and admits even one person into heaven who believes Jesus is God, then you are guilty of blasphemy and you will spend eternity in hell.  </div><br /><div> </div><br /><div>Correct?</div></div> <br /><br />Associating partners is a sin which Allah has declared in the Quran that it is unforgivable. ie if one dies upon this sin. If one repents, then there is no sin which is unpardonable in this life. <br /><br />As for where I will end, even after knowing till date that I do not associate partners - I don't know. This is what we are taugt. We are taught that we should not feel safe regarding our hereafter unless we have made it, so I don't know. <br /><br />Again, technically speaking ... anyone who dies with the belief that there is a god besides God, then he has associated partners - a sin which will not be forgiven. <br /><br />If you think God has made an exception with the Christians - which muslims are unaware of, then the Quran says Allah will judge in the matters where people have differences.<br /><br />3:55<br />&#091;Mention&#093; when Allah said, "O Jesus, indeed I will take you and raise you to Myself and purify you from those who disbelieve and make those who follow you &#091;in submission to Allah alone&#093; superior to those who disbelieve until the Day of Resurrection. Then to Me is your return, and I will judge between you concerning that in which you used to differ.<br /><br /><br /><br />]]>
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   <pubDate>Wed, 16 Jan 2013 21:12:57 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL : Abu Loren wrote: diverting attention...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=172863#172863</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=55605">Reepicheep</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 16 January 2013 at 8:38pm<br /><br /><DIV><SPAN><strong>Abu Loren wrote: diverting attention away from 1+1+1=3</strong></SPAN></DIV><DIV><SPAN><strong>&nbsp;</strong></SPAN></DIV><DIV><SPAN>I'm not diverting attention away, I'm agreeing with you.</SPAN></DIV><DIV><SPAN></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV><SPAN>In <strong>Integer Modulo 2</strong> arithmetic, the following two statements are both true:</SPAN></DIV><DIV><SPAN></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV><SPAN><FONT color=#ff0000><strong>3 = 3</strong></FONT></SPAN></DIV><DIV><SPAN><FONT color=#ff0000><strong></strong></FONT></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV><SPAN><FONT color=#ff0000><strong>3 = 1</strong></FONT></SPAN></DIV><DIV><SPAN><strong></strong></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV><SPAN>surely a beautiful mathematical way of illustrating the nature of the Triune God.</SPAN></DIV>]]>
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   <pubDate>Wed, 16 Jan 2013 20:38:10 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL : Nausheen wrote: The reasoning...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=172862#172862</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=55605">Reepicheep</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 16 January 2013 at 8:24pm<br /><br /><strong>Nausheen wrote: The reasoning is based on this fact. Though I can admit it is a very bold statement, one which should create a lot of repercussions, and as muslims we may want tone it down ... however toning it down will not change the fact - it can only change its impact on the listener.&nbsp; Any who believes Jesus is God has associated partners.</strong><DIV></DIV><DIV><strong>&nbsp;</strong></DIV><DIV>Nausheen, just to confirm what you are saying: you are declaring that every single Christian without exception who believes Jesus is God is going to spend eternity in hell.&nbsp; Furthermore, you realize that, if Allah disagrees with you and admits even one person into heaven who believes Jesus is God, then you are guilty of blasphemy and you will spend eternity in hell.&nbsp; </DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>Correct?</DIV>]]>
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   <pubDate>Wed, 16 Jan 2013 20:24:33 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL : Abu Loren wrote: I wrote what...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=172861#172861</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=55605">Reepicheep</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 16 January 2013 at 8:16pm<br /><br /><strong>Abu Loren wrote: I wrote what I wrote not on my own authority</strong> <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV><strong>&nbsp;</strong> <DIV>Interesting.&nbsp; So, it's not on your authority that you sentence all Christians to eternal damnation.&nbsp; Under whose authority, then, do you sentence all Christians to hell???</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>Also, as Caringheart has pointed out, you seem to be adding words to the koran, in particular, the words in red below:</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV><SPAN id=verse_738__6_c&#111;ntent><EM><strong>Indeed, those who have believed <FONT color=#ff0000>&#091;in Prophet Muhammad&#093;</FONT> and those <FONT color=#ff0000>&#091;before Him&#093; </FONT>who were Jews or Sabeans or Christians</strong> </EM></SPAN></DIV><DIV><SPAN><EM></EM></SPAN>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV><SPAN>Under whose authority are you adding words to the koran?&nbsp; Is it under your authority?&nbsp; And, if you have the authority to make changes to this verse, then I assume you have the authority to make whatever changes you want to any and all passages in the koran?</SPAN></DIV><span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by Reepicheep - 16 January 2013 at 8:31pm</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Wed, 16 Jan 2013 20:16:10 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :   Originally posted by Caringheart  Originally...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=172860#172860</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71711">TG12345</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 16 January 2013 at 8:09pm<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Nausheen</strong></em><br /><br /><br>These verses appear in the same chapter before verse 69.<br><br>The Quran is charging those of disbeleif who say Allah is christ.</div><br><br><b>5:<a name="69">69</a></b>Lo! those who believe, and those who are Jews, and Sabaeans, and <span>Christians  - Whosoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - there shall no fear  come upon them neither shall they grieve.<br><br>and here the qualifying factor for belief is<br>"</span><span>Whosoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right"<br><br>'and if one verse comes after another it abrogates the earlier'<br><br></span><span>The qu'ran is very conflicting with it's own self.<br><br>Sorry if I dispensed with formalities.&nbsp; I'm actually wanting to get off the computer. <img src="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/smileys/smiley27.gif" border="0" align="absmiddle" alt="Heart" /><br></span></div><br><br>Caringheart,<br><br>This verse in the Quran refers to Christians who lived before Muhammad and according to Islam's teachings followed the teachings of Jesus that the Quran claims He said and the Book it claims God gave Him.<br><br>There are contradictions in Islam, but this is not one of them.<br><br><br>]]>
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   <pubDate>Wed, 16 Jan 2013 20:09:54 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL : John 3:16-1816&#8220;For God so loved...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71711">TG12345</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 16 January 2013 at 8:07pm<br /><br /><u><b>John 3:16-18</b></u><br><br><b><span ="text John-3-16"><span ="woj"><sup ="versenum">16&nbsp;</sup>“For God so loved the world,<a href="&quot;#fen-ESV-26126i&quot;" target="_blank">i</a>&#093;">&#091;<a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=john%203&amp;versi&#111;n=ESV#fen-ESV-26126i" target="_blank">i</a>&#093;</sup> that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life.</span></span> <span id="en-ESV-26127" ="text John-3-17"><span ="woj"><sup ="versenum">17&nbsp;</sup>For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.</span></span> <span id="en-ESV-26128" ="text John-3-18"><span ="woj"><sup ="versenum">18&nbsp;</sup>Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.</span></span> </b><br>]]>
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   <pubDate>Wed, 16 Jan 2013 20:07:44 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :   Originally posted by NausheenThese...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=69566">Caringheart</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 16 January 2013 at 7:38pm<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Nausheen</strong></em><br /><br /><br>These verses appear in the same chapter before verse 69.<br><br>The Quran is charging those of disbeleif who say Allah is christ.</div><br><br><b>5:<a name="69">69</a></b>Lo! those who believe, and those who are Jews, and Sabaeans, and <span>Christians  - Whosoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - there shall no fear  come upon them neither shall they grieve.<br><br>and here the qualifying factor for belief is<br>"</span><span>Whosoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right"<br><br>'and if one verse comes after another it abrogates the earlier'<br><br></span><span>The qu'ran is very conflicting with it's own self.<br><br>Sorry if I dispensed with formalities.&nbsp; I'm actually wanting to get off the computer. <img src="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/smileys/smiley27.gif" border="0" align="absmiddle" alt="Heart" /><br></span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Wed, 16 Jan 2013 19:38:16 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :   Originally posted by Nausheen Originally...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=172855#172855</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=69566">Caringheart</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 16 January 2013 at 7:30pm<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Nausheen</strong></em><br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Reepicheep</strong></em><br /><br /><strong>Abu Loren wrote: ALL Christians will go to HELL</strong> <br><div></div><br><div></div><strong>&nbsp;</strong> <br><div>Very bravely spoken, Abu Loren!!!&nbsp; Since you are, on your own authority, sentencing every single Christian without exception to hell, you are claiming that you have the authority to determine who goes to hell and who goes to heaven.&nbsp; In other words, by claiming for yourself a right which belongs to Allah alone, you are elevating yourself to the level of Allah and claiming partnership with Him.&nbsp; Correct?</div><br></div><br><br>Hello Reepicheep,<br><br>The least requirement of a constructive debate is honesty.Without that one cannot lead to anywhere.<br><br>How can you says that anyone is claiming on his personal authority that associating partners is the gravest sin in the sight of Allah.<br><br>The reasoning is based on this fact. Though I can admit it is a very bold statement, one which should create a lot of repercussions, and as muslims we may want tone it down ... however toning it down will not change the fact - it can only change its impact on the listener.<br><br>Any who believes Jesus is God has associated partners. Now if there are christians who are free from this belief, their heart is indeed pure from this sin, and they have a wiggle room with Allah on the day of judgement. <br><br>Quran 5:116<br><br>And &#091;beware the Day&#093; when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ?'" He will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen.<br></div><br><br>Greetings Nausheen,<br><br><font size="1">Sorry if I am seeming argumentative tonight.</font><br><br>"Any who believes Jesus is God has associated partners."<br><br>Only according to your belief... according to the one you believe in... Muhammad.<br>Why was there the need for the virgin birth?<br><br>You see even what is said in your qu'ran is inaccurate, and incorrect...<br><br>"And &#091;beware the Day&#093; when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ?"<br><br>Christians have never taken Mary to be anything other than human and blessed by God.&nbsp; But some are confused by the great reverence for Mary, though I don't know why any muslim should be, since they revere her as well as blessed and holy.<br><br>It is not good to make assumptions about understanding another person's faith.<br><br>Salaam,<br>Caringheart<br><br>]]>
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   <pubDate>Wed, 16 Jan 2013 19:30:19 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :  Originally posted by CaringheartWho...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=172854#172854</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=8">Nausheen</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 16 January 2013 at 7:29pm<br /><br /> <div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br /><br /><br />Who changed(added to) the words of the qu'ran?&lt;/span&gt;<br /></div> <br /><br /><font color=blue>Quran 5:14 - 17<br /><br />And from those who say, "We are Christians" We took their covenant; but they forgot a portion of that of which they were reminded. So We caused among them animosity and hatred until the Day of Resurrection. And Allah is going to inform them about what they used to do.<br /><br />O People of the Scripture, there has come to you Our Messenger making clear to you much of what you used to conceal of the Scripture and overlooking much. There has come to you from Allah a light and a clear Book.<br /><br />By which Allah guides those who pursue His pleasure to the ways of peace and brings them out from darknesses into the light, by His permission, and guides them to a straight path.<br /><br />They have certainly disbelieved who say that Allah is Christ, the son of Mary. Say, "Then who could prevent Allah at all if He had intended to destroy Christ, the son of Mary, or his mother or everyone on the earth?" And to Allah belongs the dominion of the heavens and the earth and whatever is between them. He creates what He wills, and Allah is over all things competent.</font><br /><br />These verses appear in the same chapter before verse 69.<br /><br />The Quran is charging those of disbeleif who say Allah is christ. <span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by Nausheen - 16 January 2013 at 7:34pm</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Wed, 16 Jan 2013 19:29:12 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :    Originally posted by Abu...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=172853#172853</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=69566">Caringheart</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 16 January 2013 at 7:17pm<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Abu Loren</strong></em><br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Reepicheep</strong></em><br /><br /><strong></strong><div><strong>Surely those who believe and those who are Jews and the Sabians and the Christians whoever believes in Allah and the Final Day and does good-- they shall have no fear nor shall they grieve. &nbsp;Surah 5:69</strong></div><div><strong></strong>&nbsp;</div></div><div>&nbsp;Sahih International</div><div><span id="verse_738__6_c&#111;ntent"><em>Indeed,  those  who  have  believed  &#091;in  Prophet  Muhammad&#093;  and  those  &#091;before  Him&#093;  who were  Jews  or  Sabeans  or  Christians  -   those  &#091;among  them&#093;  who  believed  in Allah and the  Last  Day  and  did  righteousness  -   no  fear  will  there  be  concerning  them,  nor  will they  grieve. </em>5:69</span></div></div><br><br><b>5:<a name="69">69</a></b>Lo! those who believe, and those who are Jews, and Sabaeans, and <span ="c"="">Christians  - Whosoever believeth in Allah and the Last Day and doeth right - there shall no fear  come upon them neither shall they grieve.<br><br>Who changed(added to) the words of the qu'ran?<br><br></span><span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by Caringheart - 16 January 2013 at 7:18pm</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Wed, 16 Jan 2013 19:17:51 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :  Originally posted by ReepicheepAbu...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=172852#172852</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=8">Nausheen</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 16 January 2013 at 7:16pm<br /><br /> <div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Reepicheep</strong></em><br /><br /><strong>Abu Loren wrote: ALL Christians will go to HELL</strong> <br /><div></div><br /><div></div><strong> </strong> <br /><div>Very bravely spoken, Abu Loren!!!  Since you are, on your own authority, sentencing every single Christian without exception to hell, you are claiming that you have the authority to determine who goes to hell and who goes to heaven.  In other words, by claiming for yourself a right which belongs to Allah alone, you are elevating yourself to the level of Allah and claiming partnership with Him.  Correct?</div><br /></div><br /><br />Hello Reepicheep,<br /><br />The least requirement of a constructive debate is honesty.Without that one cannot lead to anywhere.<br /><br />How can you says that anyone is claiming on his personal authority that associating partners is the gravest sin in the sight of Allah.<br /><br />The reasoning is based on this fact. Though I can admit it is a very bold statement, one which should create a lot of repercussions, and as muslims we may want tone it down ... however toning it down will not change the fact - it can only change its impact on the listener.<br /><br />Any who believes Jesus is God has associated partners. Now if there are christians who are free from this belief, their heart is indeed pure from this sin, and they have a wiggle room with Allah on the day of judgement. <br /><br />Quran 5:116<br /><br />And &#091;beware the Day&#093; when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ?'" He will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen.<br /><br /><br /><br /><span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by Nausheen - 16 January 2013 at 7:20pm</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Wed, 16 Jan 2013 19:16:34 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :    Originally posted by ReepicheepAbu...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=172849#172849</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=70404">Abu Loren</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 16 January 2013 at 6:47pm<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Reepicheep</strong></em><br /><br /><strong>Abu Loren wrote: ALL Christians will go to HELL</strong> <div></div><div></div><strong>&nbsp;</strong> <div>Very bravely spoken, Abu Loren!!!&nbsp; Since you are, on your own authority, sentencing every single Christian without exception to hell, you are claiming that you have the authority to determine who goes to hell and who goes to heaven.&nbsp; In other words, by claiming for yourself a right which belongs to Allah alone, you are elevating yourself to the level of Allah and claiming partnership with Him.&nbsp; Correct?</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>I'm sure you agree that, if Allah decides to contradict you and lets even one Christian into heaven, then you face a very severe fate on the Day of Judgement.</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>By the way, are you familiar with the following passage from the Koran?</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div><strong>Surely those who believe and those who are Jews and the Sabians and the Christians whoever believes in Allah and the Final Day and does good-- they shall have no fear nor shall they grieve. &nbsp;Surah 5:69</strong></div><div><strong></strong>&nbsp;</div><div>Since you are claiming that this passage is wrong, and since muslims believe that this passage was revealed to humanity through Muhammad, then I assume you are accusing Muhammad of being a false prophet?&nbsp; </div><div>&nbsp;</div><div><strong>Abu Loren wrote: ...<font face="Arial">believe that 1+1+1=1. </font></strong></div><div><font face="Arial"></font>&nbsp;</div><div><font face="Arial">Yes, you are correct.&nbsp; There are systems of mathematics where 3 = 1, for example, <strong>Integer Modulo 2</strong> arithmetic.&nbsp; To see this for yourself, go to (for example) <a href="http://www.google.com" target="_blank">www.google.com</a> and type in</font></div><div><font face="Arial"></font>&nbsp;</div><div><font face="Arial"><strong>3 MOD 2</strong></font></div><div><strong><font face="Arial"></font></strong>&nbsp;</div><div><font face="Arial">It will confirm that 3 is, in fact, equal to 1.</font></div></div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>Reepicheep I see that you come out of the woodwork now and then and show your face on this forum.</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>I wrote what I wrote not on my own authority as I know the consequences of it, unlike the Christians. All I'm doing is just simplifying what God has said in His final Revelation to mankind.</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>By the way, all Christians like to quote passage 5:69 as it makes them feel secure that everything is ok. But here's the real meaning of that verse.</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div style="line-height: 18px; font-size: 16px;">Sahih International</div><div style="line-height: 18px; font-size: 16px;">&nbsp;</div><div><span id="verse_738__6_c&#111;ntent"><em>Indeed,  those  who  have  believed  &#091;in  Prophet  Muhammad&#093;  and  those  &#091;before  Him&#093;  who were  Jews  or  Sabeans  or  Christians  -   those  &#091;among  them&#093;  who  believed  in Allah and the  Last  Day  and  did  righteousness  -   no  fear  will  there  be  concerning  them,  nor  will they  grieve. </em>5:69</span></div><div><span></span>&nbsp;</div><div><span>As you can see you as a Christian, Jew or a Sabean must believe in Prophet Muhammad (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) and in the Holy Qur'an. As far as I can see only a handful of Christians will make it. It is those who followed the original message of of Jesus (Alayhi Salaam) before the Trinitarians hijacked Christianity.</span></div><div><span></span>&nbsp;</div><div><span>You can give me all the science you want as. again. diverting attention away from 1+1+1=3 makes you Christians feel secure or rather a false sense of security.</span></div><div><span></span>&nbsp;</div><div><span>By the way, when can we see you next on this forum?</span></div><span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by Abu Loren - 16 January 2013 at 6:57pm</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Wed, 16 Jan 2013 18:47:15 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :    I think a person should...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=69566">Caringheart</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 16 January 2013 at 6:36pm<br /><br />I think a person should have faith because they believe in the faith, because the faith itself has something to recommend it, not because they have lost faith in another.<br><br>Many are astray in their practice...<br>it does not necessarily mean they are astray in their belief.<br>God, and only God, can judge the heart.<br><br>Peace/salaam.<br><br><span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by Caringheart - 16 January 2013 at 6:41pm</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Wed, 16 Jan 2013 18:36:06 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :    Originally posted by ReepicheepAbu...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=172846#172846</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=69566">Caringheart</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 16 January 2013 at 6:33pm<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Reepicheep</strong></em><br /><br /><strong>Abu Loren wrote: ALL Christians will go to HELL</strong> <div></div><div></div><strong>&nbsp;</strong> <div>Very bravely spoken, Abu Loren!!!&nbsp; Since you are, on your own authority, sentencing every single Christian without exception to hell, you are claiming that you have the authority to determine who goes to hell and who goes to heaven.&nbsp; In other words, by claiming for yourself a right which belongs to Allah alone, you are elevating yourself to the level of Allah and claiming partnership with Him.&nbsp; Correct?</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>I'm sure you agree that, if Allah decides to contradict you and lets even one Christian into heaven, then you face a very severe fate on the Day of Judgement.</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>By the way, are you familiar with the following passage from the Koran?</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div><strong>Surely those who believe and those who are Jews and the Sabians and the Christians whoever believes in Allah and the Final Day and does good-- they shall have no fear nor shall they grieve. &nbsp;Surah 5:69</strong></div><div><strong></strong>&nbsp;</div><div>Since you are claiming that this passage is wrong, and since muslims believe that this passage was revealed to humanity through Muhammad, then I assume you are accusing Muhammad of being a false prophet?&nbsp; </div><div>&nbsp;</div><div><strong>Abu Loren wrote: ...<font face="Arial">believe that 1+1+1=1. </font></strong></div><div><font face="Arial"></font>&nbsp;</div><div><font face="Arial">Yes, you are correct.&nbsp; There are systems of mathematics where 3 = 1, for example, <strong>Integer Modulo 2</strong> arithmetic.&nbsp; To see this for yourself, go to (for example) <a href="http://www.google.com" target="_blank">www.google.com</a> and type in</font></div><div><font face="Arial"></font>&nbsp;</div><div><font face="Arial"><strong>3 MOD 2</strong></font></div><div><strong><font face="Arial"></font></strong>&nbsp;</div><div><font face="Arial">It will confirm that 3 is, in fact, equal to 1.</font></div></div><br><br>Another illustration is in the atomic (or micro) level of all matter... the energy that forms everything...<br>is made up of <br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; electro magnetic force&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; weak force<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; \&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; /<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; strong<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; force<br>trinity<br>Is God energy itself?<br>capable of taking any form...<br>something to ponder on<br>Does anyone know the nature of God?<br>Why is it that we can not look upon Him?<br><br>on a side note:<br>Does a shamrock have three leaves and yet it is one?<br><br><span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by Caringheart - 16 January 2013 at 6:38pm</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Wed, 16 Jan 2013 18:33:55 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL : Abu Loren wrote: ALL Christians...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=172836#172836</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=55605">Reepicheep</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 16 January 2013 at 3:18pm<br /><br /><strong>Abu Loren wrote: ALL Christians will go to HELL</strong> <DIV></DIV><DIV></DIV><strong>&nbsp;</strong> <DIV>Very bravely spoken, Abu Loren!!!&nbsp; Since you are, on your own authority, sentencing every single Christian without exception to hell, you are claiming that you have the authority to determine who goes to hell and who goes to heaven.&nbsp; In other words, by claiming for yourself a right which belongs to Allah alone, you are elevating yourself to the level of Allah and claiming partnership with Him.&nbsp; Correct?</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>I'm sure you agree that, if Allah decides to contradict you and lets even one Christian into heaven, then you face a very severe fate on the Day of Judgement.</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>By the way, are you familiar with the following passage from the Koran?</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV><strong>Surely those who believe and those who are Jews and the Sabians and the Christians whoever believes in Allah and the Final Day and does good-- they shall have no fear nor shall they grieve. &nbsp;Surah 5:69</strong></DIV><DIV><strong></strong>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>Since you are claiming that this passage is wrong, and since muslims believe that this passage was revealed to humanity through Muhammad, then I assume you are accusing Muhammad of being a false prophet?&nbsp; </DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV><strong>Abu Loren wrote: ...<FONT face=Arial>believe that 1+1+1=1. </FONT></strong></DIV><DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV><FONT face=Arial>Yes, you are correct.&nbsp; There are systems of mathematics where 3 = 1, for example, <strong>Integer Modulo 2</strong> arithmetic.&nbsp; To see this for yourself, go to (for example) <a href="http://www.google.com" target="_blank">www.google.com</A> and type in</FONT></DIV><DIV><FONT face=Arial></FONT>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV><FONT face=Arial><strong>3 MOD 2</strong></FONT></DIV><DIV><strong><FONT face=Arial></FONT></strong>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV><FONT face=Arial>It will confirm that 3 is, in fact, equal to 1.</FONT></DIV><span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by Reepicheep - 16 January 2013 at 4:56pm</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Wed, 16 Jan 2013 15:18:30 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>ALL Christians will go to HELL :     As&#8217;alaamu Alikkum Wa Rahmatullahi...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24641&amp;PID=172817#172817</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=70404">Abu Loren</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24641<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 16 January 2013 at 7:21am<br /><br /><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><span style='line-height: 115%; font-family: "Arial Narrow","sans-serif"; font-size: 14pt;'>As’alaamu Alikkum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuhu<?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p></span></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><span style='line-height: 115%; font-family: "Arial Narrow","sans-serif"; font-size: 14pt;'><o:p>&nbsp;</o:p></span></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><span style='line-height: 115%; font-family: "Arial Narrow","sans-serif"; font-size: 12pt;'>It is written that the greatest sin which AllahSubhana Wa Ta’ala will not forgive is associating partners to Him. TheChristians associate the Holy Spirit who is Jibril (Alyhi Salaam) and the Sonwho is Jesus (Alayhi Salaam) with God Almighty. However, their escape clause isin stipulating that all three are one. A simple mathematical calculationrenders this impossible. I was taught at school that 1+1+1=3. This is simplemathematics that all school children learn when they start kindergarten. Thisformula is pure polytheism which they do not want to acknowledge as it isbetter to close your eyes and believe that 1+1+1=1. Then they argue that Godhas always been three in one even they say, in the Old Testament. I have readand re-read the Old Testament but I just can’t find this reasoning anywhere.May be I am just st**id.<o:p></o:p></span></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><span style='line-height: 115%; font-family: "Arial Narrow","sans-serif"; font-size: 12pt;'>Then you have the Catholic denomination ofChristianity where all of their churches are adorned with idols. Everywhere youlook you will find a figure hanging from a cross, the idol of Mary mother Jesus(Alayhi Salaam) and saints from their history. They pray to these idols and askfor intercession, which is nonsensical because all these people are deadawaiting resurrection. No human being can intercede for you. <o:p></o:p></span></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><span style='line-height: 115%; font-family: "Arial Narrow","sans-serif"; font-size: 12pt;'>When Prophet Muhammad (Alayhi Salaam) started toreceive his revelations he invited the people of the Book both Jews andChristians to be part of the New Muhammadan Covenant. They refused to thedetriment of their souls. They could not see the light that was sent during thetime of darkness. They refused the Mercy that was sent to all mankind, thereforethey are still in that darkness where the light just does not shine.<o:p></o:p></span></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><span style='line-height: 115%; font-family: "Arial Narrow","sans-serif"; font-size: 12pt;'>There is a simple solution for all Christians andJews who are seeking their own salvation. It is simply to submit to the OneTrue God Allah Subhana Wa Ta’ala and be part of the Final Covenant of GodAlmighty. They need to open their eyes and their hearts and worship God how Hewants us to worship Him.<o:p></o:p></span></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0in 0in 10pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><span style='line-height: 115%; font-family: "Arial Narrow","sans-serif"; font-size: 12pt;'>“Ashadu anla Illaha Illallah wa Ashadu annaMuhammadan abduhu rasool Allah”.<o:p></o:p></span></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font>]]>
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   <pubDate>Wed, 16 Jan 2013 07:21:36 +0000</pubDate>
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