IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : CAringheart, no offense but it...

Thu, 02 May 2013 13:39:59 +0000

Author: honeto
Subject: 24611
Posted: 02 May 2013 at 1:39pm

CAringheart,
no offense but it seams, you went backwards in all this time and wasted your chance of learning and growing in knowledge. When I said 124000 prophets, I meant these are prophets from God, it does not include any others. It include prophets like Noah, MOses, Abraham, David, JEsus and Mohammed (pbut).
Jesus (pbuh) was himself a prophet, how could he know other than what God told him. And the Bible is not authentic word of God anyway. There is no original Gospel that Jesus preached, so we cannot trust what some men wrote centuries later as versions of Gospels. Those are some of the facts I hear from former Christians, who by God's grace have accepted the truth.
Hasan

Edited by honeto - 02 May 2013 at 1:57pm

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : "Yes there were 124000...

Tue, 30 Apr 2013 13:44:00 +0000

Author: Caringheart
Subject: 24611
Posted: 30 April 2013 at 1:44pm

"Yes there were 124000 prophets according to Islamic teachings, and it is true according to the Quran we make no distinction between them."

There are those of us who, in keeping with the exhortations of Yeshua Himself, do make a very important distinction.

I am quoting someone else here:

Jesus doesn't teach that all prophets had the same message... Jesus prophesied that there will be false prophets who will deceive many. I boldened some in the verses below.

http://www.biblegate...w 7&version=NIV
"15 �Watch out for false prophets. They come to you in sheep�s clothing, but inwardly they are ferocious wolves. 16 By their fruit you will recognize them. Do people pick grapes from thornbushes, or figs from thistles? 17 Likewise, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Thus, by their fruit you will recognize them."

Since Jesus commanded his followers to love their enemies, bad fruit includes disobeying Jesus' commands.

http://www.biblegate... 24&version=NIV
"4 Jesus answered: �Watch out that no one deceives you. 5 For many will come in my name, claiming, �I am the Messiah,� and will deceive many. 6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. 7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. 8 All these are the beginning of birth pains.
9 �Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me. 10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other, 11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people. 12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold, 13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
15 �So when you see standing in the holy place �the abomination that causes desolation,� spoken of through the prophet Daniel�let the reader understand� 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. 17 Let no one on the housetop go down to take anything out of the house. 18 Let no one in the field go back to get their cloak. 19 How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! 20 Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. 21 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now�and never to be equaled again.
22 �If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. 23 At that time if anyone says to you, �Look, here is the Messiah!� or, �There he is!� do not believe it. 24 For false messiahs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect. 25 See, I have told you ahead of time."

So, it is important for Jesus' followers to not think that all prophets have the same message. There are people who claim they are prophets with God's Word/Revelation, yet really are false prophets. :( That is why for Christians, it is important for us to follow what Jesus said, which has by God's protection, power, and grace been preserved for centuries.

and, according to the guidance in the Biblical scriptures, written by author of the book called John;

4 Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world.

2 Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God:

3 And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

4 Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.

8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.

9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.

10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins.

11 Beloved, if God so loved us, we ought also to love one another.

12 No man hath seen God at any time. If we love one another, God dwelleth in us, and his love is perfected in us.

13 Hereby know we that we dwell in him, and he in us, because he hath given us of his Spirit.

14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Saviour of the world.

15 Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God.

16 And we have known and believed the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.

17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.

19 We love him, because he first loved us.

20 If a man say, I love God, and hateth his brother, he is a liar: for he that loveth not his brother whom he hath seen, how can he love God whom he hath not seen?

21 And this commandment have we from him, That he who loveth God love his brother also.

So anyone who believes in what Jesus taught, has a discrepancy to deal with.

Salaam.

Edited by Caringheart - 30 April 2013 at 1:52pm

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Webber, when we put things in...

Tue, 30 Apr 2013 12:47:34 +0000

Author: honeto
Subject: 24611
Posted: 30 April 2013 at 12:47pm

Webber,
when we put things in wrong order in our head that's when it makes us less sense.
Yes there were 124000 prophets according to Islamic teachings, and it is true according to the Quran we make no distinction between them.
Just like their is a distinction between the first man and prophet, Adam (Pbuh) there is special distinction that prophet Mohammed (pbuh)bears he was the seal of the prophets, the last of the chain of prophets that came to guide humanity. Also for those of us who live after he came as a prophet follow his example and the word of God that came through him puts him closer to us then previously sent ones, as we copy his example. But our love and respect for Jesus, Moses and Abraham (pbut)is in no way less, as they were all Allah's prophets and love ones. They are dear to us so much, that many Muslims name their son's after them as well. Musa (Moses), Ibraheem (Abraham), Daood (David) and Essa (Jesus) are some of most common names among Muslim men, of course Mohammed and Ahmed are more common for the reason I explained above.
Humanity has been living for thousands of years and in far places, so it is not hard for me to understand that God sent prophets in all eras and times and we also believe that God sent prophets in all people not just to Bani-Israel, even those who were living in far areas then others.
Hasan

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : There should be no punishment....

Wed, 17 Apr 2013 23:29:54 +0000

Author: Webber
Subject: 24611
Posted: 17 April 2013 at 11:29pm

There should be no punishment. If there is no compulsion in religion then there should be no intimidation for a person searching for answers. God is a very personal God, why leave Him to the explanation of others? Especially those who insist you believe something you don't understand. While they should be saying, "May God bless you in your search, then please enlighten me for I am stagnant."

Islam, being the religion perfected, since Adam...

124,000 prophets taught Islam. The Quran says we make no distinction, yet the final hurdle in becoming a Muslim is to place Muhammad above the rest.

Unfortunate, we don't have 124,000 accounts, as they would all carry more subjects and wisdom on them. We have but a few.

To insist evey man stick to one prophet only is to say you can only have this much of God.

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Originally posted by maazalisyedThere...

Wed, 17 Apr 2013 20:10:20 +0000

Author: nospam001
Subject: 24611
Posted: 17 April 2013 at 8:10pm

Originally posted by maazalisyed

There are many instances specially in Malaysia and Indonesia, where some Muslims accepted other faith because of lack of Islamic knowledge transferred by parents etc. But when preachers reach there they turn back to Islam, and there is no punishment... If a Muslim rejects Islam or leave his faith, there is always as option of forgiveness, as soon as he comes back towards Islam.

Granted, some ex-Muslims have rejected Islam because of incorrect information. Would Allah() seal their hearts to prevent them coming back? I presume not.

In that case, whose hearts would He() seal? Only those ex-Muslims who continue to reject Islam despite knowing the truth. But no sane person would ever do that, surely.

So we end up with an extra punishment reserved by Allah() for those who are already insane.

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : There are many instances specially...

Wed, 17 Apr 2013 06:14:08 +0000

Author: maazalisyed
Subject: 24611
Posted: 17 April 2013 at 6:14am

There are many instances specially in Malaysia and Indonesia, where some Muslims accepted other faith because of lack of Islamic knowledge transferred by parents etc. But when preachers reach there they turn back to Islam, and there is no punishment... If a Muslim rejects Islam or leave his faith, there is always as option of forgiveness, as soon as he comes back towards Islam.

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Originally posted by RationalInteresting....

Mon, 15 Apr 2013 15:55:40 +0000

Author: nospam001
Subject: 24611
Posted: 15 April 2013 at 3:55pm

Originally posted by Rational

Interesting. However, I don't agree with the claims from Wikipedia regarding this subject that shia believe this and sunnis believe that. There are varying opinions on both sides amongs people.

For me, a muslim trusts in Allah and submits to Him. For a muslim, Allah is the very definition of justice. He is just. He doesn't answer to us, we answer to Him. He is the judge, we do not judge Him. He knows what is just, we don't. He tells us what is just, we follow.

I agree that one's actual beliefs are not necessarily the same as any particular set of orthodox teachings. Indeed, your own opinions on divine justice would serve as a powerful example, assuming you have ever disagreed with Sunni doctrine on any other matter.

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Originally posted by RationalAssalamo...

Sun, 14 Apr 2013 15:48:56 +0000

Author: nospam001
Subject: 24611
Posted: 14 April 2013 at 3:48pm

Originally posted by Rational

Assalamo Alaik nospam,

Allah (subhanaho wa ta'ala) says:

Indeed, Allah is not timid to present an example - that of a mosquito or what is smaller than it. And those who have believed know that it is the truth from their Lord. But as for those who disbelieve, they say, "What did Allah intend by this as an example?" He misleads many thereby and guides many thereby. And He misleads not except the defiantly disobedient, (26) Who break the covenant of Allah after contracting it and sever that which Allah has ordered to be joined and cause corruption on earth. It is those who are the losers. (27)

In other words, Allah (subhanaho wa ta'ala) does not mislead those that are obedient, those that do not violate moral principles and are sincere in being righteous.

But Allah will, if He wishes, mislead the defiantly disobedient, the rebellious transgressors, the committed wrongdoers... and certainly those that worship other than Him (subhanaho wa ta'ala).

Hi Rational - Thanks. I had completely overlooked that verse. As I was never a believer, I cannot say I have been deliberately blinded by Allah(). It seems that the active misleading is reserved mainly for apostates, judging by 2:27.

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Originally posted by nospam001Here's...

Sat, 13 Apr 2013 06:28:06 +0000

Author: Rational
Subject: 24611
Posted: 13 April 2013 at 6:28am

Originally posted by nospam001

Here's a bit more on divine justice, thanks to Wikipedia.

The Shias believe that there is intrinsic good or evil in things, and that God commands them to do the good things and shun the evil. They believe that God acts according to a purpose or design, and human reason cannot comprehend this design or purpose in its entirety (though man must always strive to understand as much as he can).

The Sunni School of thought does not consider Justice of God as part of Uṣūl ad-Dīn (fundamentals of faith). It subscribes to the view that nothing is good or evil per se, and that what God commanded people to do became good by virtue of his command, and what he forbade became evil.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adalah

It would be a tautology for a Sunni to say "Allah() is just". That sentence is true by definition and therefore conveys absolutely no useful information. It is logically impossible for Him to do what is 'not just'. The Problem of Evil is 'solved' by declaring a word to mean something else. We may need a special Sunni dictionary, but at least it places no demands on Faith.

By contrast, the Shia does not rely on flexible semantics. Allah() could easily do what is not just, but He always chooses not to. This is acknowledged as an article of Faith. Stuff only seems unjust to the extent that we don't understand Allah's purpose or design. I don't subscribe to this view, obviously, but at least it's open to further discussion.

Interesting. However, I don't agree with the claims from Wikipedia regarding this subject that shia believe this and sunnis believe that. There are varying opinions on both sides amongs people.

For me, a muslim trusts in Allah and submits to Him. For a muslim, Allah is the very definition of justice. He is just. He doesn't answer to us, we answer to Him. He is the judge, we do not judge Him. He knows what is just, we don't. He tells us what is just, we follow.

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Assalamo Alaik nospam,Allah...

Fri, 12 Apr 2013 16:50:52 +0000

Author: Rational
Subject: 24611
Posted: 12 April 2013 at 4:50pm

Assalamo Alaik nospam,

Allah (subhanaho wa ta'ala) says:

Indeed, Allah is not timid to present an example - that of a mosquito or what is smaller than it. And those who have believed know that it is the truth from their Lord. But as for those who disbelieve, they say, "What did Allah intend by this as an example?" He misleads many thereby and guides many thereby. And He misleads not except the defiantly disobedient, (26) Who break the covenant of Allah after contracting it and sever that which Allah has ordered to be joined and cause corruption on earth. It is those who are the losers. (27)

In other words, Allah (subhanaho wa ta'ala) does not mislead those that are obedient, those that do not violate moral principles and are sincere in being righteous.

But Allah will, if He wishes, mislead the defiantly disobedient, the rebellious transgressors, the committed wrongdoers... and certainly those that worship other than Him (subhanaho wa ta'ala).

Edited by Rational - 13 April 2013 at 5:55am

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Here's a bit more on divine...

Thu, 28 Mar 2013 14:48:00 +0000

Author: nospam001
Subject: 24611
Posted: 28 March 2013 at 2:48pm

Here's a bit more on divine justice, thanks to Wikipedia.

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Originally posted by RationalSorry...

Wed, 06 Mar 2013 01:02:09 +0000

Author: nospam001
Subject: 24611
Posted: 06 March 2013 at 1:02am

Originally posted by Rational

Sorry for the very late reply.

Late or not, I'm grateful for intelligent conversation on this topic. It doesn't seem to matter to a lot of people.

I'm not sure what you mean by "just". Maybe give an example from the Quran.

I take your point. Googling the phrase "Allah is just", I found some tafsir but nothing in any translation of the Qur'an. "The Utterly Just" (Al-'Adl) is often said to be one of the 99 names, but even that originates from Hadith, evidently a disputed one.

So you've got me. It seems that Allah() Himself never actually claimed to be anything of the sort. Not in those words, anyway.

Having said that, the Qur'an (in English translation) does seem to blur the alleged distinction between esoteric divine justice and familiar human justice, allowing naive readers like me to form the impression that both forms of justice do indeed follow the same set of principles - principles that include 'whether the punishment fits the crime'.

What seems to be missing completely is the principle that 'unlike human justice, divine justice is whatever pleases the boss'.

In everyday commerce we often see advertisers trying to exploit a familiar-sounding word or phrase that also has a 'special' or unfamiliar meaning - so as to overcome resistance and shift more product. Take the word "guarantee" for example. I can't count the number of times I've been fooled by that one!

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Assalam Alaik...

Sat, 02 Mar 2013 14:14:37 +0000

Author: Rational
Subject: 24611
Posted: 02 March 2013 at 2:14pm

Assalam Alaik nospam001,

Sorry for the very late reply.

Originally posted by nospam001

By looking only at English translations, am I missing a crucial difference in meaning which would have been obvious in Arabic, even to a non-believer? In other words, why do English translations of Islamic texts use the word "just" when describing Allah(), given that it is meaningless to do so?

I'm not sure what you mean by "just". Maybe give an example from the Quran.

About reading translations of the Quran, some verses will seem to give different meanings. But it's good to read several translations to get a better understanding (you probably do this already), and even ask someone that can read arabic to explain what a word or verse means. When reading the Quran in arabic, the reader obtaines the original and obviously the most accurate meaning. Arabic is such a rich language and the holy Quran makes full use of it. And as you know, the Quran is written in classical arabic known as arabic "foss-ha" (that's one word btw).

The Quran is amazing when read in Arabic. No man-written poetry dares compete or even come close. In all those years and still, nothing has ever come close to it's quality in style, content and consistency. As they say "It's out of this world". There is no doubt that these are the words of our Creator.

Not sure if that answers your question but I tried.

Edited by Rational - 02 March 2013 at 2:34pm

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Originally posted by CaringheartLet's...

Mon, 11 Feb 2013 15:32:53 +0000

Author: Rational
Subject: 24611
Posted: 11 February 2013 at 3:32pm

Originally posted by Caringheart

Let's face it after Muhammad died so did his leadership.Salaam,Caringheart

Hasbun Allah Wa Ni'mal Wakeel

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Originally posted by Rational Originally...

Sun, 10 Feb 2013 16:52:22 +0000

Author: nospam001
Subject: 24611
Posted: 10 February 2013 at 4:52pm

Originally posted by Rational

Originally posted by nospam001

In the Arabic text, was there a different word for Allah(), one which always gets mistranslated into English as plain old "just"?

Assalam alaik nospam,

Not sure I understand the question.

By looking only at English translations, am I missing a crucial difference in meaning which would have been obvious in Arabic, even to a non-believer? In other words, why do English translations of Islamic texts use the word "just" when describing Allah(), given that it is meaningless to do so?

I'm wondering whether the original source documents actually used an entirely different word in Arabic, a word whose common everyday usage is not so loaded with inappropriate meanings that are bound to deceive the unsuspecting reader. That way, any confusion that may arise would be the fault of the translators and not the author.

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Originally posted by Ratio...

Sun, 10 Feb 2013 15:30:51 +0000

Author: Caringheart
Subject: 24611
Posted: 10 February 2013 at 3:30pm

Originally posted by Rational

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3gTtw23mS8

Greetings Rational,

Regarding Muhammad being an influential leader. I agree and I think of all the other great leaders for their time who came through history...
Ghandi, Nelson Mandela, and Martin Luther King Jr, come to my mind...
They all did great things for their people, were great leaders for their time.
I think Muhammad fits in with them. They were all ahead of their time.
There have been many people who have changed the course of the world... Abraham Lincoln, Steve Jobs...
Let's face it after Muhammad died so did his leadership.

Salaam,
Caringheart

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : "Whether thou warn...

Sun, 10 Feb 2013 15:20:14 +0000

Author: Caringheart
Subject: 24611
Posted: 10 February 2013 at 3:20pm

"Whether thou warn them or thou warn them not it is all one for them; they believe not. (6) Allah hath sealed their hearing and their hearts, and on their eyes there is a covering." (surah 2)
The god of this world has blinded the minds of those who do not believe, and prevents the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, the image of God, from shining on them... (Biblical scripture)
Who is the god of this world?
Who is it that blinds and deceives?

Greetings Rational,

"I am one person and I do not have followers, I am a follower... of God and His laws... of what Jesus taught."

Do you know what Jesus taught? Have you read any of the words of Jesus?

Salaam,
Caringheart

"Allah (Himself) doth mock"
"Allah taketh away their light and leaveth them in darkness"
"Allah encompasseth the disbelievers. (in His guidence)"

Edited by Caringheart - 10 February 2013 at 4:11pm

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Originally posted by Caringheartam...

Sun, 10 Feb 2013 14:34:06 +0000

Author: Rational
Subject: 24611
Posted: 10 February 2013 at 2:34pm

Originally posted by Caringheart

am a follower... of God and His laws..

You're a follower of satan because you worship a pagan trinity. Jesus (alaihi assalam) will put you to shame Caringheart. May Allah (subhanaho wa ta'ala) guide us all.

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Originally posted by Caringheart......

Sun, 10 Feb 2013 14:18:19 +0000

Author: Rational
Subject: 24611
Posted: 10 February 2013 at 2:18pm

Originally posted by Caringheart

...

Prophet Mohammad (Salla Allah Alaihi Wasallam)

http://www.themodernreligion.com/prophet/top100.htm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B3gTtw23mS8

Edited by Rational - 10 February 2013 at 2:38pm

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Originally posted by nospam001In...

Sun, 10 Feb 2013 13:52:05 +0000

Author: Rational
Subject: 24611
Posted: 10 February 2013 at 1:52pm

Originally posted by nospam001

In the Arabic text, was there a different word for Allah(), one which always gets mistranslated into English as plain old "just"?

Assalam alaik nospam,

Not sure I understand the question.

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : "There are two ways to approach...

Fri, 08 Feb 2013 09:22:22 +0000

Author: Caringheart
Subject: 24611
Posted: 08 February 2013 at 9:22am

"There are two ways to approach a study of Muhammad. One is with reverence and the other is with skepticism. Thinking persons choose the latter. They are not influenced by the number of Muslim believers in the world today or by their force of belief because these are meaningless for determining truth. They care only about fact."

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Originally posted by Rational Originally...

Fri, 08 Feb 2013 00:24:13 +0000

Author: nospam001
Subject: 24611
Posted: 08 February 2013 at 12:24am

Originally posted by Rational

Originally posted by nospam001

Allah's justice is intrinsically different from human justice...It is meaningless to ask whether He is just, because His judgement is what justice is.

- Sheikh Nuh Keller, 2008 Suffering and Divine Wisdom

That's exactly how I feel. It's what I'm trying to say in a nutshell. Thanks for sharing the link.

I accept that for Muslims the comforting notion of human justice is totally meaningless in this special context. Do you think maybe something has been lost in translation? In the Arabic text, was there a different word for Allah(), one which always gets mistranslated into English as plain old "just"?

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Originally posted by...

Thu, 07 Feb 2013 11:51:57 +0000

Author: Caringheart
Subject: 24611
Posted: 07 February 2013 at 11:51am

Originally posted by Rational

Originally posted by Caringheart

I think Muhammad misunderstood the scriptures

Mohammad (pbuh) has 1.57 billion followers and increasing.

How many do you have?

¹³Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

¹⁴Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

¹⁵Beware of false prophets...
(the words of Jesus)

I do not think we are measured in numbers of followers of man's religion.
I am one person and I do not have followers, I am a follower... of God and His laws... of what Jesus taught.

Salaam,
Caringheart

Edited by Caringheart - 08 February 2013 at 9:22am

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Originally posted by...

Thu, 07 Feb 2013 11:16:32 +0000

Author: Rational
Subject: 24611
Posted: 07 February 2013 at 11:16am

Originally posted by Caringheart

I think Muhammad misunderstood the scriptures

Mohammad (pbuh) has 1.57 billion followers and increasing.

How many do you have?

Edited by Rational - 07 February 2013 at 11:26am

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Originally posted by RationalThat's...

Thu, 07 Feb 2013 00:33:32 +0000

Author: nospam001
Subject: 24611
Posted: 07 February 2013 at 12:33am

Originally posted by Rational

That's exactly how I feel. It's what I'm trying to say in a nutshell. Thanks for sharing the link.

Hi Rational. My pleasure. It's a very impressive bit of writing, yes? And thanks for your thoughtful reply.

I think it also takes faith to accept that "Allah is just". This is why it's easy for me, a believer, to decide on this issue. Because I submit to His will. I therefore obey and accept His will, whatever it may be, regardless of what I think. Because I recognise Him to be the Creator, the Sustainer, the Judge, the Arbitrator, the Wise, the Utterly Just. And so I wouldn't dare question Him on "whether the punishment fits the crime". On the other hand, a non believer doesn't submit to Him and so finds it wrong, or not just.

I'm glad to see that you have no problem understanding why a non-believer 'finds it wrong, or not just'. That's good enough for me. It reinforces my hunch that an ancient tafsir would have been sure to discuss this very specific quibble; i.e. I'm not wasting my time hoping to find one eventually.

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Assalamo alaikom, goday mate :) Originally...

Wed, 06 Feb 2013 18:04:18 +0000

Author: Rational
Subject: 24611
Posted: 06 February 2013 at 6:04pm

Assalamo alaikom, goday mate :)

Originally posted by nospam001

I presume Rational is not serious when he equates people to lifeless plasticine figures in a child's game.

I am serious when I use plasticine figures in place of people. I identify both as being a creation. They are both created and owned by a creator. It's irrelevant what attributes or qualities they have. Let's assume that the figures had immortal souls. Would this reduce the authority that their creator has over them? No, because he gave them those immortal souls. They exist because of him. He owns them. They don't own themselves. If they did, they would have control over the beginning and end of their existence. So whether they have immortal souls or not, this doesn't influence the ownership of the creator over their destiny.

I think it also takes faith to accept that "Allah is just". This is why it's easy for me, a believer, to decide on this issue. Because I submit to His will. I therefore obey and accept His will, whatever it may be, regardless of what I think. Because I recognise Him to be the Creator, the Sustainer, the Judge, the Arbitrator, the Wise, the Utterly Just. And so I wouldn't dare question Him on "whether the punishment fits the crime". On the other hand, a non believer doesn't submit to Him and so finds it wrong, or not just.

God instructed Ibraheem (as) to sacrifice his son. Was this just? Ibraheem was confused, nevertheless he was willing to obey because he submits to the will of God. And just before he carried out this task, he heard a voice telling him not to worry, and that he had passed a difficult test. God teaches us a lesson that He (subhanaho wa ta'ala) has complete authority over us, regardless of what we think.

Originally posted by nospam001

Allah's justice is intrinsically different from human justice...It is meaningless to ask whether He is just, because His judgement is what justice is.

- Sheikh Nuh Keller, 2008 Suffering and Divine Wisdom

That's exactly how I feel. It's what I'm trying to say in a nutshell. Thanks for sharing the link.

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Greetings nospam,I tried reading...

Wed, 06 Feb 2013 08:26:09 +0000

Author: Caringheart
Subject: 24611
Posted: 06 February 2013 at 8:26am

Greetings nospam,

I tried reading that article but is it just me...
it had me feeling like I was being talked around in circles.
Maybe it is just too early in the day for me...

Caringheart

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Originally posted by nospam001I...

Wed, 06 Feb 2013 02:16:42 +0000

Author: Abu Loren
Subject: 24611
Posted: 06 February 2013 at 2:16am

Originally posted by nospam001

I presume Rational is not serious when he equates people to lifeless plasticine figures in a child's game.

Judging from the lack of any serious response, I have to conclude that my questions have been overtaken by other topics, or simply misunderstood. It's not as though there is anything new or unfamiliar about their source, so it follows that a relevant tafsir must exist, somewhere out there.

Mr. Spammer I think I've told you once before that you are a waste of space. You do not have guidnace nor understanding nor knowledge. What's sad about you is that we give you examples but you are not willing to take it on board because you are happy being an agnositic whatever that means. I've also said before that you try to act clever but you are only being clever to yourself.

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : I presume Rational is not serious...

Wed, 06 Feb 2013 00:17:05 +0000

Author: nospam001
Subject: 24611
Posted: 06 February 2013 at 12:17am

I presume Rational is not serious when he equates people to lifeless plasticine figures in a child's game.

To repeat: For some people (including me) 'justice' is very much about whether the punishment fits the crime, regardless of who is in charge. Rational seems to be saying we are naive, and that true justice is defined as whatever pleases the boss. In this respect he is not alone.

Allah's justice is intrinsically different from human justice...It is meaningless to ask whether He is just, because His judgement is what justice is.

- Sheikh Nuh Keller, 2008 Suffering and Divine Wisdom

I'm sure you'd all laugh your socks off supposing I said "blue is the colour of something that is blue". But, if Keller is correct, then it is equally meaningless to claim that "Allah is just".

Does that reflect how most Muslims feel about justice, generally?

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Originally posted by nospam001 And...

Tue, 05 Feb 2013 10:27:03 +0000

Author: Caringheart
Subject: 24611
Posted: 05 February 2013 at 10:27am

Originally posted by nospam001

And if He places a veil on my heart and then damns me for not believing, that's entirely His choice. Clearly there has to be some kind of cosmic justice in that which, being veiled, I am just too blind to see.

A real 'Catch-22'. Maybe that's why no-one on this forum has actually come forward and said it.

I do keep bringing it up, I know. You could say it's my 'thing'. Sorry if you find it boring.

Greetings nospam,

I think Muhammad misunderstood the scriptures;

2 Cor 4:2-4,18 (Phi) ... If our gospel is "veiled", the veil must be in the minds of those who are spiritually dying. The god of this world has blinded the minds of those who do not believe, and prevents the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, the image of God, from shining on them... For we are looking all the time not at the visible things but at the invisible. The visible things are transitory: it is the invisible things that are permanent.

The god of this world

it is the 'god of this world', satan, that has blinded the eyes of the creation, because it is satan that seeks for God's creation to destroy itself.

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Originally posted by Abu Loren Originally...

Thu, 31 Jan 2013 21:32:01 +0000

Author: Webber
Subject: 24611
Posted: 31 January 2013 at 9:32pm

Originally posted by Abu Loren

Originally posted by nospam001

"Does the Trinity make sense, or is it just polytheism in disguise?"

Which trinity are you talking about? Many things were done in threes and could be considered a trinity situation. Trinity of man may interest you.

"Did Jesus ever actually say it's OK to eat pigs?"

There weren't any pigs around at the time so He settled on camels.

"Was he crucified, or beamed up at the last minute?"

Not sure there was an actual beam, but who knows. There was a Roman soldier and a lot of witnesses who said something happened.

Are these topics a fair cross-section of what gets everyone fired up in interfaith forums? Do they help convince anyone who isn't already convinced? Where might I find a less dogmatic (and therefore more persuasive) presentation of the case for God/Allah?

I must be in a low intulechewal spasm as I totally missed what it is you are looking for. Was I wrong to think you may be serious?

[quote] You've been given intellect by Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala but you choose to not to use it and sometimes your intellect is more lacking than a new born baby (not that they lack intellect).

Knowledge without maturity is dangerous.

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Originally posted by nospam001"Does...

Thu, 31 Jan 2013 19:07:45 +0000

Author: Abu Loren
Subject: 24611
Posted: 31 January 2013 at 7:07pm

Originally posted by nospam001

"Does the Trinity make sense, or is it just polytheism in disguise?"

"Did Jesus ever actually say it's OK to eat pigs?"

"Was he crucified, or beamed up at the last minute?"

Mr. Spammer these questions are very fundamental in establishing who Jesus (Alayhi Salaam) was and who God is. If one believes that the Trinity makes sense and Jesus (Alayhi Salaam) said it's OK to eat pigs and that he was crucified then this conflicts with the Islmaic belief and one would label Prophet Muhammad (Salallahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) as a false prophet. On the other side of the coin is, of course the opposite, which is that the Holy Qur'an is the Words of God and Prophet Muhammad (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) is the Prophet and Messenger of God Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala. So these crucially makes a difference to people's salvation.

You've been given intellect by Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala but you choose to not to use it and sometimes your intellect is more lacking than a new born baby (not that they lack intellect).

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : "Does the Trinity make sense,...

Tue, 29 Jan 2013 00:36:56 +0000

Author: nospam001
Subject: 24611
Posted: 29 January 2013 at 12:36am

"Does the Trinity make sense, or is it just polytheism in disguise?"

"Did Jesus ever actually say it's OK to eat pigs?"

"Was he crucified, or beamed up at the last minute?"

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : It seems some Muslims don‘t know...

Fri, 25 Jan 2013 18:38:58 +0000

Author: Robin Hood
Subject: 24611
Posted: 25 January 2013 at 6:38pm

It seems some Muslims don�t know that the Qur�an talks a lot about intellect.

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Originally posted by RationalIt's...

Fri, 25 Jan 2013 00:52:41 +0000

Author: nospam001
Subject: 24611
Posted: 25 January 2013 at 12:52am

Originally posted by Rational

It's not for us to ask him anything. The plasticine is his and so he can do whatever he wishes with it. He can choose to give whatever purpose to a figure. He can choose to have a figure with no purpose at all. He can choose to make a figure with no arms infinitly or temporarily. He can then choose to give the same figure arms and wings. The plasticine is his, he's the one working with it, he knows the purpose, we can only claim and assume we know. He qualifies to dictate over the plasticine in any way he chooses.

I agree that it would be absurd for me to ask our hypothetical protagonist to explain himself, given that you are the sole author of - and authority on - this thought experiment. And yes, people do act arbitrarily and without reason, sometimes with a lack of empathy that can be truly chilling. Especially young children.

By substituting lifeless objects in place of sentient beings you seem to imply that questions 3 & 4 above are both irrelevant. To me, they make a huge difference.

Maybe it is naive for me to think that 'justice' has something to do with whether the punishment fits the crime. I am guessing that many readers would agree with you that - just as we see in the grubby world of realpolitik - it's really all about who is in charge, and who doles out the punishment. As long as they're one and the the same, then my notion of 'justice' is rendered totally meaningless or, at best, an airy-fairy construct for philosophers and dreamers.

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Originally posted...

Thu, 24 Jan 2013 04:55:33 +0000

Author: Rational
Subject: 24611
Posted: 24 January 2013 at 4:55am

Originally posted by nospam001

I appreciate your choice of analogy. Before I can respond, however, there are some details that need to be clarified.

1 Did the child damage some of the plasticine figures?
2. If yes, was it on purpose, just so they would be 'not to his liking'?
3. Does each plasticine figure also have an immortal soul?
4. Will there be eternal suffering for the 'recycled' figures?
5. Is the child fully aware of all these facts?
6. Does he generally appear to know right from wrong?

What I think depends very much on these details.

[EDIT: Before today, I was able to post directly to this thread. Alas, not any more. How about you?]

It's not for us to ask him anything. The plasticine is his and so he can do whatever he wishes with it. He can choose to give whatever purpose to a figure. He can choose to have a figure with no purpose at all. He can choose to make a figure with no arms infinitly or temporarily. He can then choose to give the same figure arms and wings. The plasticine is his, he's the one working with it, he knows the purpose, we can only claim and assume we know. He qualifies to dictate over the plasticine in any way he chooses.

Do you disagree?

[I can post directly]

Edited by Rational - 24 January 2013 at 6:14am

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Originally posted by Abu LorenThey've...

Thu, 24 Jan 2013 00:00:11 +0000

Author: nospam001
Subject: 24611
Posted: 24 January 2013 at 12:00am

Originally posted by Abu Loren

They've probably taken away your privilege because you are a waste of space and a duck.

Ah... I always wondered why my feet looked like that.

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Originally posted by nospam001 Originally...

Wed, 23 Jan 2013 18:49:21 +0000

Author: Abu Loren
Subject: 24611
Posted: 23 January 2013 at 6:49pm

Originally posted by nospam001

Originally posted by Rational

I have an example. Tell me what you think. A child is given some plasticine and begins to create several figures. He decided that a couple of them are not to his liking and so chooses to put them into the recycling bin. Is this 'apparent injustice' to those unfortunate figures? He owns them and created them so it's his business what he does with them and no one has the right to tell him anything. If anyone shares their opinion with him by saying he is unfair, it's not incumbent upon him to answer.I appreciate your choice of analogy. Before I can respond, however, there are some details that need to be clarified.

What I think depends very much on these details.

[EDIT: Before today, I was able to post directly to this thread. Alas, not any more. How about you?]

They've probably taken away your privilege because you are a waste of space and a duck.

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Originally posted by RationalI...

Tue, 22 Jan 2013 13:51:12 +0000

Author: nospam001
Subject: 24611
Posted: 22 January 2013 at 1:51pm

I appreciate your choice of analogy. Before I can respond, however, there are some details that need to be clarified.

What I think depends very much on these details.

[EDIT: Before today, I was able to post directly to this thread. Alas, not any more. How about you?]

Edited by nospam001 - 22 January 2013 at 11:16pm

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Originally posted by nospam001I'd...

Tue, 22 Jan 2013 10:02:22 +0000

Author: Rational
Subject: 24611
Posted: 22 January 2013 at 10:02am

Originally posted by nospam001

I'd rate myself about a 5 on Dawkins' 7-point scale. More evolution than Creation

So currently you think it's more plausible that everything was created by chance, bish bash bosh and we have everything. Ok.

Originally posted by nospam001

Now, if we could get back to the 'apparent injustice' thing...

I have an example. Tell me what you think. A child is given some plasticine and begins to create several figures. He decided that a couple of them are not to his liking and so chooses to put them into the recycling bin. Is this 'apparent injustice' to those unfortunate figures? He owns them and created them so it's his business what he does with them and no one has the right to tell him anything. If anyone shares their opinion with him by saying he is unfair, it's not incumbent upon him to answer.

What do you think?

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Originally posted by nospam001 Originally...

Tue, 22 Jan 2013 04:42:51 +0000

Author: Abu Loren
Subject: 24611
Posted: 22 January 2013 at 4:42am

Originally posted by nospam001

Originally posted by Rational

In general, What are your thoughts on how everything came to being? Are you more Creation or more Evolution.

I just want to know how an Agnostic thinks.

"When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do sir?" (attributed to John Maynard Keynes).

There's a good intro on Wikipedia. For me personally, I'd rate myself about a 5 on Dawkins' 7-point scale. More evolution than Creation but, like Keynes and J B S Haldane, my views could change tomorrow.

Now, if we could get back to the 'apparent injustice' thing...

Originally posted by Rational

Maybe you acknowledge that but I don't because I believe He exists and so He can do whatever He wants with His creation.

I now see what you mean. (I think.) Supposing the word 'justice' is defined to include 'any act or omission of God', then any 'apparent injustice' would instantly disappear in a puff of semantics.

While we're at it, other familiar-sounding words like 'consistent', 'truthful', 'forgiving' and 'caring' may be said to apply to God by definition, regardless of His choices.

A sentence such as "God is just" may sound comforting to the proles but conveys no actual information, once you've read the disclaimer. Brilliant!

Why are you breathing God's precious air? Shouldn't you be grateful to Him?

So you think you are born by chance in a universe which came into existance by chance? You sure are taking a big chance.

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Originally posted by RationalIn...

Mon, 21 Jan 2013 14:16:58 +0000

Author: nospam001
Subject: 24611
Posted: 21 January 2013 at 2:16pm

Originally posted by Rational

In general, What are your thoughts on how everything came to being? Are you more Creation or more Evolution.

I just want to know how an Agnostic thinks.

"When the facts change, I change my mind. What do you do sir?" (attributed to John Maynard Keynes).

Now, if we could get back to the 'apparent injustice' thing...

Originally posted by Rational

Maybe you acknowledge that but I don't because I believe He exists and so He can do whatever He wants with His creation.

I now see what you mean. (I think.) Supposing the word 'justice' is defined to include 'any act or omission of God', then any 'apparent injustice' would instantly disappear in a puff of semantics.

While we're at it, other familiar-sounding words like 'consistent', 'truthful', 'forgiving' and 'caring' may be said to apply to God by definition, regardless of His choices.

A sentence such as "God is just" may sound comforting to the proles but conveys no actual information, once you've read the disclaimer. Brilliant!

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Originally posted by nospam001I...

Mon, 21 Jan 2013 02:24:04 +0000

Author: Rational
Subject: 24611
Posted: 21 January 2013 at 2:24am

Originally posted by nospam001

I believe that a God who chooses to handicap people and then punishes them for being handicapped must have a different set of values from those normally ascribed to Him.

In general, What are your thoughts on how everything came to being? Are you more Creation or more Evolution.

I just want to know how an Agnostic thinks.

Edited by Rational - 21 January 2013 at 2:46am

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Originally posted by RationalMaybe...

Sun, 20 Jan 2013 19:26:14 +0000

Author: nospam001
Subject: 24611
Posted: 20 January 2013 at 7:26pm

Originally posted by Rational

Maybe you acknowledge that but I don't because I believe He exists and so He can do whatever He wants with His creation.

So what do you believe then?

I believe that a God who chooses to handicap people and then punishes them for being handicapped must have a different set of values from those normally ascribed to Him.

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Originally posted by nospam001 Originally...

Sun, 20 Jan 2013 18:31:09 +0000

Author: Rational
Subject: 24611
Posted: 20 January 2013 at 6:31pm

Originally posted by nospam001

Originally posted by Rational

So if you don't believe that He exists, what do you believe? Do you believe it's more probable that everything evolved?

I gather you acknowledge the apparent injustice, but would rather discuss a different topic right now?

Maybe you acknowledge that but I don't because I believe He exists and so He can do whatever He wants with His creation.

Sowhat do you believe then?

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Originally posted by RationalSo...

Sun, 20 Jan 2013 17:46:31 +0000

Author: nospam001
Subject: 24611
Posted: 20 January 2013 at 5:46pm

Originally posted by Rational

So if you don't believe that He exists, what do you believe? Do you believe it's more probable that everything evolved?

I gather you acknowledge the apparent injustice, but would rather discuss a different topic right now?

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Originally posted by nospam001Yes,...

Sun, 20 Jan 2013 15:13:21 +0000

Author: Rational
Subject: 24611
Posted: 20 January 2013 at 3:13pm

Originally posted by nospam001

Yes, provided He exists, He can do anything at all. I don't dispute that.

So if you don't believe that He exists, what do you believe? Do you believe it's more probable that everything evolved?

I don't find it boring it's quite entertaining actually

Edited by Rational - 20 January 2013 at 3:19pm

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Originally posted by RationalBy...

Sun, 20 Jan 2013 13:55:13 +0000

Author: nospam001
Subject: 24611
Posted: 20 January 2013 at 1:55pm

Originally posted by Rational

By surrendering, I accept everything in the Quran. He (Almighty) created everything, and so He can do whatever he wishes to it.

Yes, provided He exists, He can do anything at all. I don't dispute that.

A real 'Catch-22'. Maybe that's why no-one on this forum has actually come forward and said it.

I do keep bringing it up, I know. You could say it's my 'thing'. Sorry if you find it boring.

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Originally posted...

Sun, 20 Jan 2013 03:45:39 +0000

Author: Rational
Subject: 24611
Posted: 20 January 2013 at 3:45am

Originally posted by nospam001

Originally posted by Rational

"Do the disbelievers await [anything] except that the angels should come to them or there comes the command of your Lord? Thus did those do before them. And Allah wronged them not, but they had been wronging themselves. (16:33)

This looks like it might be a rebuttal of my recent posts elsewhere about the
four verses of the veil. Perhaps you are suggesting that 16:33 completely abrogates those verses?

No I'm not suggesting that. The difference between me and you is that I surrender to Him (Almighty) and you don't. By surrendering, I accept everything in the Quran. He (Almighty) created everything, and so He can do whatever he wishes to it. If you believed in this seal (since you keep brining it up), means you believe in the Creator described in the Quran, which means you believe in His favors upon you and the Hereafter. That should be sufficient to fear Allah. And in fearing Allah you would strive to please Him because no person wants a seal including you. So fear Allah (Almighty).

Edited by Rational - 20 January 2013 at 4:07am

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Originally posted by RationalListen...

Sun, 20 Jan 2013 02:53:08 +0000

Author: nospam001
Subject: 24611
Posted: 20 January 2013 at 2:53am

Originally posted by Rational

Listen to Abu Lorens advice. He wants what is best for you.

Ok.

Originally posted by Abu Loren

[Posted today in thread "All Christians will go to HELL"] There is a good reason why you f ools don't understand anything that is because you associate partners to God and He has set a seal in your collective hearts.

Not that I'm Christian, but at least he gets the idea.

This looks like it might be a rebuttal of my recent posts elsewhere about the
four verses of the veil. Perhaps you are suggesting that 16:33 completely abrogates those verses?

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Originally posted...

Sat, 19 Jan 2013 14:01:28 +0000

Author: Rational
Subject: 24611
Posted: 19 January 2013 at 2:01pm

Originally posted by nospam001

I'm already earmarked for hell, so why not?

Listen to Abu Lorens advice. He wants what is best for you. You're bringing this seal to yourself and earmarking yourself to hell. Don't be one of those that Allah describes in these verses:

"Your god is one God. But those who do not believe in the Hereafter - their hearts are disapproving, and they are arrogant. (16:22) Assuredly, Allah knows what they conceal and what they declare. Indeed, He does not like the arrogant." (16:23)

"Do the disbelievers await [anything] except that the angels should come to them or there comes the command of your Lord? Thus did those do before them. And Allah wronged them not, but they had been wronging themselves. (16:33) So they were struck by the evil consequences of what they did and were enveloped by what they used to ridicule." (16:34)

Edited by Rational - 19 January 2013 at 2:25pm

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Originally posted by Abu LorenBy...

Sat, 19 Jan 2013 11:00:36 +0000

Author: Caringheart
Subject: 24611
Posted: 19 January 2013 at 11:00am

Originally posted by Abu Loren

By the way, no offence but you DO come across as a know it all on this forum.

Not to me he doesn't. I think he asks good questions.
Salaam.

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Originally posted by nospam001I'm...

Sat, 19 Jan 2013 02:04:10 +0000

Author: Abu Loren
Subject: 24611
Posted: 19 January 2013 at 2:04am

Originally posted by nospam001

I'm already earmarked for hell, so why not?

As you currently don't believe in anything or anyone you definately are going to hell. But there is good news. You can change it around by sincerely repenting to your Maker as He says that He will forgive those who sincerely repent of their sins. God does not lie. Change your life around. Stop being arrogant. Stop pretending that you know it all, submit and be humble. Admit to yourself that only God knows everything.

Take two witness or go to your local masjid or Islamic centre and tell them that you want to submit to God. You will recive plenty of help Insha'Allah. Then make sure there are at least two witness and tell them that you are doing this out of your own accord and that you are not forced to accept Islam. Then utter the Islamic statement of faith which is

"Ashadu anla Ilaha Illallah was ashadu anna Muhammdan abduhu rasooluhu".

More good news! ALL of your past sins will be forgiven and you will be like a new born baby without sins. Then practice the five pillats of Islam so that you are guided, they are Prayer (five times a day at the stipulated times), Charity or Zakah (once a year), Fasting (during the holy month of Ramadan), Hajj (pilgrimage to Mecca if you financially ablr to go) and Shahada which you would have already taken in the beginning.

Stop looking for 'proof' and have faith. Dive headlong from the top of a mountain and Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala will save you.

By the way, no offence but you DO come across as a know it all on this forum.

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Originally posted by nospam001 Originally...

Fri, 18 Jan 2013 21:29:52 +0000

Author: Caringheart
Subject: 24611
Posted: 18 January 2013 at 9:29pm

Originally posted by nospam001

Originally posted by Caringheart

Playing devil's advocate, eh?

I'm already earmarked for hell, so why not? (If there are any kids watching: Don't try this at home.)

If he were to kill anyone after knowing that it is a sin to do so, then he will certainly have to answer for it.

There are many stories of former criminals who knowingly did wrong and later turned to Christ. Until now I've always understood that they were certain to be forgiven for all their past sins, assuming they truly repented, of course. Isn't that one of the main messages in the Gospel?

Hello again nospam,

Are you the same person I said once before...
"You ask intriguing questions?"
I am always pretty willing to admit that I do not have all the answers.
I guess I would have to say, "Did they knowingly do wrong? Did they really know? If they did not know Christ did they then know what it means to commit sin?"
But you are right this is one of the biggest things to turn former criminals around... to know that they have the forgiveness of God.
I look forward to the day I meet my Maker and will see 'not in part, but in full'. To the day when I may know all things. I hope I'm not in for any shocks.

Peace and blessings to you,
Caringheart

Edited by Caringheart - 18 January 2013 at 9:31pm

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Originally posted by CaringheartPlaying...

Fri, 18 Jan 2013 19:29:38 +0000

Author: nospam001
Subject: 24611
Posted: 18 January 2013 at 7:29pm

Originally posted by Caringheart

Playing devil's advocate, eh?

I'm already earmarked for hell, so why not? (If there are any kids watching: Don't try this at home.)

If he were to kill anyone after knowing that it is a sin to do so, then he will certainly have to answer for it.

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Originally posted by nospam001 Originally...

Fri, 18 Jan 2013 11:15:21 +0000

Author: Caringheart
Subject: 24611
Posted: 18 January 2013 at 11:15am

Originally posted by nospam001

Originally posted by Caringheart

Originally posted by Abu Loren

Every soul is responsible for it's own sins otherwise I could go out tomorrow and murder uncaringheart and give that sin to Jesus (Alayhi Salaam) Astaghfirullah!

Having the sacrifice of Jesus is all about repenting from sinful ways.

Yes but what if he murders you first, then repents?

Greetings nospam,

Playing devil's advocate, eh?

I'm just saying that if he were to kill anyone then obviously he does not have God or Jesus because he would be convicted in his heart that this was wrong to do.
If he were to kill anyone after knowing that it is a sin to do so, then he will certainly have to answer for it.
If someone kills without knowing it is a sin to do so... good question... is that a soul forever blackened beyond saving, or can they be brought into the light? I guess only our Maker has those answers. I don't.
CH

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Abu Loren wrote: You are right...

Fri, 18 Jan 2013 09:37:26 +0000

Author: Reepicheep
Subject: 24611
Posted: 18 January 2013 at 9:37am

Abu Loren wrote: You are right for once.

Good to hear. Even a broken clock is correct twice a day.

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Originally posted by ReepicheepAbu...

Fri, 18 Jan 2013 09:34:09 +0000

Author: Abu Loren
Subject: 24611
Posted: 18 January 2013 at 9:34am

Originally posted by Reepicheep

Abu Loren wrote: With regard to Shi'a 'twlevers' 'thirteeners' or whatever they are all deviant Muslims.

Your statement explains a lot about you. Since you so casually condemn hundreds of millions of your fellow muslims to hell, I guess we shouldn't be surprised when you likewise condemn billions of Christians to hell.

You must expect heaven to be an empty, lonely place. Do you think there will be anyone there other than you?

You are right for once. The majority of human beings will be in hell. As for me I will be judged first by my maker and He will have Mercy on whom He wills. I'd like to be in heaven rather than in hell for sure. Allahu Alum!

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Abu Loren wrote: With regard to...

Fri, 18 Jan 2013 09:08:14 +0000

Author: Reepicheep
Subject: 24611
Posted: 18 January 2013 at 9:08am

Abu Loren wrote: With regard to Shi'a 'twlevers' 'thirteeners' or whatever they are all deviant Muslims.

You must expect heaven to be an empty, lonely place. Do you think there will be anyone there other than you?

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Originally posted by ReepicheepAbu...

Fri, 18 Jan 2013 08:39:31 +0000

Author: Abu Loren
Subject: 24611
Posted: 18 January 2013 at 8:39am

Originally posted by Reepicheep

Abu Loren wrote: First of all you do not pray five times a day at the stipulated times which is the cornerstone of Islam, hence you are out of the fold of Islam.

Abu Loren, that's kind of a bizarre reason for you to declare W.S. a non-muslim, since there are many, many people who call themselves muslim but who don't believe in praying five times a day.

For example, there are a couple of hundred million "Shia Twelvers" who believe in praying three times a day. Are you saying that all Twelvers are apostates from islam because they don't pray five times a day???

I'm curious, why are you fascinated with Islam and Muslims? I think you a stuanch Christians supporter?

Anyway, Many, many people who call themselves and don't pray five times a day at the stipulated times are also out of the fold of Islam. One is meant to make up the prayer if they unintentionally miss it. Unfortunately there are millions of people who are born into Muslim families but do not practice the religion but they call themselves Muslim which is incorrect. A true Muslim has to follow a certain set of guidelines in which praying five times a day sits at the top.

With regard to Shi'a 'twlevers' 'thirteeners' or whatever they are all deviant Muslims. They've innovated so much in Islam that it is almost unrecognisable from the mainstream 'true' Islam.

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Abu Loren wrote:First of all you...

Fri, 18 Jan 2013 08:01:00 +0000

Author: Reepicheep
Subject: 24611
Posted: 18 January 2013 at 8:01am

Abu Loren wrote: First of all you do not pray five times a day at the stipulated times which is the cornerstone of Islam, hence you are out of the fold of Islam.

Abu Loren, that's kind of a bizarre reason for you to declare W.S. a non-muslim, since there are many, many people who call themselves muslim but who don't believe in praying five times a day.

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Originally posted by W.S. Interesting...

Fri, 18 Jan 2013 06:54:26 +0000

Author: Abu Loren
Subject: 24611
Posted: 18 January 2013 at 6:54am

Originally posted by W.S.

Interesting and very entertaining!

WS delete your religion as Islam from your profile as I can tell you to your face that you are not a Muslim. First of all you do not pray five times a day at the stipulated times which is the cornerstone of Islam, hence you are out of the fold of Islam.

You have one chance of redemption that is to sincerely repent to Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala for your doubts. But if you do that then leave Islam again then you will NEVER be forgiven.

So be careful from whom you take advise.

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Originally posted by TG12345 Originally...

Fri, 18 Jan 2013 05:25:36 +0000

Author: W.S.
Subject: 24611
Posted: 18 January 2013 at 5:25am

Originally posted by TG12345

Originally posted by TG12345

I have other examples but because of time constraints will leave it here for now. Looking forward to hearing your thoughts.

Originally posted by W.S.

Thanks for the reply! For now, I'll just say that I have discerned a couple of cracks before, and now more of them appeared. Take care yourself!

Originally posted by TG12345

Salaam Alaikum, W.S.

Wa aleikum asalaam! Sorry about my late and ridiculously short response. I too, have other things to do than being here. Also, reading posts and putting your thoughts into words in English is time-consuming. Posting as much as I'd like would have me sit here around the clock.

Originally posted by TG12345

I just wanted to say that although I believe it is very evident that there are a lot of 'cracks' in what Islam teaches, there is also a lot of good in it as well.

Your faith correctly teaches there is one God. It correctly teaches that He is good. It teaches that He sent prophets, and it teaches that He wants the world to come to know Him. It correctly teaches respect to parents, care for the vulnerable, disdain of adultery, fornication, homosexuality and other sins. It teaches many good things.

It does!

Originally posted by TG12345

It does not promote murdering non-Muslims. It does not promote terrorism. It does not promote pedophilia. It does not teach the many evil things that people who are bigoted towards it and towards Muslims claim it does.

It does not!

Originally posted by TG12345

It does, however, tragically deny what God for us on the cross.

God or Jesus? Make up your minds already!

Originally posted by TG12345

As you look at the 'cracks' in Islam, remember to keep God first in your mind though. Do not allow them to take you away from Him. Remember that none of us are perfect, and do not allow the cracks you see to judge either Muhammad or your fellow Muslim brothers and sisters who do love Him and believe they are serving and worshiping Him to the best of their ability.

That's good advice!

Originally posted by nospam001

[quote=W.S.]I'll just say that I have discerned a couple of cracks before, and now more of them appeared.

Speaking of cracks, how about verses 50:6 and 67:3, as discussed recently in the topic Literal or figurative: the sky 'has no cracks'...

Interesting and very entertaining!

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Originally posted by nospam001but...

Fri, 18 Jan 2013 03:41:53 +0000

Author: Rational
Subject: 24611
Posted: 18 January 2013 at 3:41am

Originally posted by nospam001

but what if he murders you first, then repents?

Good point I also want to know?

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Originally posted by Caringheart Originally...

Thu, 17 Jan 2013 22:44:10 +0000

Author: nospam001
Subject: 24611
Posted: 17 January 2013 at 10:44pm

Originally posted by Caringheart

Originally posted by Abu Loren

Every soul is responsible for it's own sins otherwise I could go out tomorrow and murder uncaringheart and give that sin to Jesus (Alayhi Salaam) Astaghfirullah!

Having the sacrifice of Jesus is all about repenting from sinful ways.

Yes but what if he murders you first, then repents?

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Originally posted by Rational Originally...

Thu, 17 Jan 2013 15:19:48 +0000

Author: Caringheart
Subject: 24611
Posted: 17 January 2013 at 3:19pm

Originally posted by Rational

Originally posted by Caringheart

I will hope you do justice to the name you choose and take a rational look at the links that I provided.

You too "caringheart"

Does this mean you took look at the links I provided.
I have always taken time to look at what is presented to me.

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Originally posted by Rational Originally...

Thu, 17 Jan 2013 15:18:19 +0000

Author: Caringheart
Subject: 24611
Posted: 17 January 2013 at 3:18pm

Originally posted by Rational

Originally posted by Caringheart

What it means 'that Jesus takes away our sins', is that our sinful nature, through belief, and love for His great sacrifice, is replaced with a conscience that is continually convicting us, and admonishing us, when we are tempted toward sin. This is the way the sacrifice of Jesus saves us. No other sacrifice offered... bulls, goats, sheep, etc. ... ever stung anyone's conscience enough to bring about change... but the sacrifice made by Jesus, and the Love that brings, when we accept Him...

This is not justice to any rational person.

"our sinful nature, through belief, and love for His great sacrifice, is replaced with a conscience that is continually convicting us, and admonishing us, when we are tempted toward sin. This is the way the sacrifice of Jesus saves us..."

Innovation is your trademark.

Where does 'justice' come into it? Were we discussing justice?
and whose justice?

I don't think you took the time to try and process any of what I was saying, which makes me sad.

Edited by Caringheart - 17 January 2013 at 3:22pm

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Originally posted by CaringheartWhat...

Thu, 17 Jan 2013 13:38:01 +0000

Author: Rational
Subject: 24611
Posted: 17 January 2013 at 1:38pm

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Originally posted by CaringheartI...

Thu, 17 Jan 2013 13:03:54 +0000

Author: Rational
Subject: 24611
Posted: 17 January 2013 at 1:03pm

Originally posted by Caringheart

I will hope you do justice to the name you choose and take a rational look at the links that I provided.

You too "caringheart"

Edited by Rational - 17 January 2013 at 1:20pm

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Originally posted by Abu...

Thu, 17 Jan 2013 12:23:06 +0000

Author: Caringheart
Subject: 24611
Posted: 17 January 2013 at 12:23pm

Originally posted by Abu Loren

Originally posted by Rational

Originally posted by TG12345

I pray He leads you to Him and that you accept what Christ did for you and us all on the cross.

If he has indeed taken my sins in such a degrading way, as God is my witness, I will ask for them back on judgment day as they are rightfully mine.

Bravo bro. well said. Every soul is responsible for it's own sins otherwise I could go out tomorrow and murder uncaringheart and give that sin to Jesus (Alayhi Salaam) Astaghfirullah!

No you couldn't Abu, because if you did such a thing it would mean that you do not have Jesus. Having accepted the sacrifice of Jesus means that you could never do such a thing because you would knowingly be committing a sin and yes, you would answer for it.

Having the sacrifice of Jesus is all about repenting from sinful ways.

Salaam,
CH

Without the law we would never see our sins and thus would never repent, so the law still stands, but it is Jesus who brings us to it.

God�s Law Reveals Our Sin

⁷Well then, am I suggesting that the law of God is sinful? Of course not! In fact, it was the law that showed me my sin. I would never have known that coveting is wrong if the law had not said, �You must not covet.� ⁸But sin used this command to arouse all kinds of covetous desires within me! If there were no law, sin would not have that power. ⁹At one time I lived without understanding the law. But when I learned the command not to covet, for instance, the power of sin came to life, ¹⁰and I died. So I discovered that the law�s commands, which were supposed to bring life, brought spiritual death instead. ¹¹Sin took advantage of those commands and deceived me; it used the commands to kill me. ¹²But still, the law itself is holy, and its commands are holy and right and good.

¹³But how can that be? Did the law, which is good, cause my death? Of course not! Sin used what was good to bring about my condemnation to death. So we can see how terrible sin really is. It uses God�s good commands for its own evil purposes.

Struggling with Sin

¹⁴So the trouble is not with the law, for it is spiritual and good. The trouble is with me, for I am all too human, a slave to sin.
(these are the words of Paul)

Edited by Caringheart - 17 January 2013 at 12:37pm

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Originally posted by Rational Originally...

Thu, 17 Jan 2013 12:19:12 +0000

Author: Caringheart
Subject: 24611
Posted: 17 January 2013 at 12:19pm

Originally posted by Rational

Originally posted by TG12345

I pray He leads you to Him and that you accept what Christ did for you and us all on the cross.

If he has indeed taken my sins in such a degrading way, as God is my witness, I will ask for them back on judgment day as they are rightfully mine.

Greetings Rational,

What it means 'that Jesus takes away our sins', is that our sinful nature, through belief, and love for His great sacrifice, is replaced with a conscience that is continually convicting us, and admonishing us, when we are tempted toward sin. This is the way the sacrifice of Jesus saves us. No other sacrifice offered... bulls, goats, sheep, etc. ... ever stung anyone's conscience enough to bring about change... but the sacrifice made by Jesus, and the Love that brings, when we accept Him...

Salaam,
Caringheart

Edited by Caringheart - 17 January 2013 at 12:20pm

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Originally posted by R...

Thu, 17 Jan 2013 12:08:09 +0000

Author: Caringheart
Subject: 24611
Posted: 17 January 2013 at 12:08pm

Originally posted by Rational

السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته

Originally posted by Caringheart

I have yet to have any muslim tell me what it is that they find so objectionable in the teaching of Paul.

Paul contradicted everything that Jesus (pbuh) said, did and was

Jesus taught that God is ONE, Pauline theology pioneered the Trinity
Jesus taught OT law, Paul negated it
Jesus taught accountability, Paul taught justification of faith
Jesus taught he was son of man, Paul taught Jesus was son of God
Jesus said pray to God, Paul said pray to Jesus
Jesus taught he was an ethnic prophet not sent but for the lost sheep of israel, Paul taught that Jesus was a universal prophet
and on and on and on�

Greetings Rational,

By your statements above,
You are obviously not aware then, of how often Jesus spoke against the Pharisees and their 'laws'.

The trouble is that people do not take the time to read and understand the teaching of Paul.
Here are some things you do not understand because you do not have the fullness of God's Word.
Rather than me posting a lot here on the forum, please go and read at this link,
http://www.eliyah.com/protorah.html
which I just came across. It shares much of what I had begun typing to share here on the forum and will save alot of my time and energy.

I would also like to throw in that you should read Hebrews 10 at the following link;
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=hebrews%2010&version=NLT

I will hope you do justice to the name you choose and take a rational look at the links that I provided.

If anything, God chose Paul because he knew the law so well.

Salaam,
Caringheart

Edited by Caringheart - 17 January 2013 at 12:13pm

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : ".....as God is my witness,...

Thu, 17 Jan 2013 07:09:27 +0000

Author: abuayisha
Subject: 24611
Posted: 17 January 2013 at 7:09am

".....as God is my witness, I will ask for them back on judgment day as they are rightfully mine."

Nafsi, nafsi (myself, myself), on that Day, indeed you would not want them back.

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Originally posted by Rational Originally...

Thu, 17 Jan 2013 07:09:11 +0000

Author: Abu Loren
Subject: 24611
Posted: 17 January 2013 at 7:09am

Originally posted by Rational

Originally posted by TG12345

I pray He leads you to Him and that you accept what Christ did for you and us all on the cross.

If he has indeed taken my sins in such a degrading way, as God is my witness, I will ask for them back on judgment day as they are rightfully mine.

Bravo bro. well said. Every soul is responsible for it's own sins otherwise I could go out tomorrow and murder uncaringheart and give that sin to Jesus (Alayhi Salaam) Astaghfirullah!

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Originally posted by TG12345I...

Thu, 17 Jan 2013 05:27:17 +0000

Author: Rational
Subject: 24611
Posted: 17 January 2013 at 5:27am

Originally posted by TG12345

I pray He leads you to Him and that you accept what Christ did for you and us all on the cross.

If he has indeed taken my sins in such a degrading way, as God is my witness, I will ask for them back on judgment day as they are rightfully mine.

Edited by Rational - 17 January 2013 at 5:44am

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : السلام...

Thu, 17 Jan 2013 04:32:01 +0000

Author: Rational
Subject: 24611
Posted: 17 January 2013 at 4:32am

السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته

Originally posted by Caringheart

I have yet to have any muslim tell me what it is that they find so objectionable in the teaching of Paul.

Paul contradicted everything that Jesus (pbuh) said, did and was

Jesus taught that God is ONE, Pauline theology pioneered the Trinity
Jesus taught OT law, Paul negated it
Jesus taught accountability, Paul taught justification of faith
Jesus taught he was son of man, Paul taught Jesus was son of God
Jesus said pray to God, Paul said pray to Jesus
Jesus taught he was an ethnic prophet not sent but for the lost sheep of israel, Paul taught that Jesus was a universal prophet
and on and on and on�

Edited by Rational - 17 January 2013 at 5:45am

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : You are right. I am...

Wed, 16 Jan 2013 10:59:55 +0000

Author: Caringheart
Subject: 24611
Posted: 16 January 2013 at 10:59am

[QUOTE=Abu Loren]

You are right. I am scared and I want to run as far away from your st**idity as possible. So you think that God should have sent Prophet Musa (Alayhi Salaam) to Emperor Ming in China? Surely that would have been pointless as the Children of Israel were in bondage in Egypt!Read the Holy Qur'an fully and then come back and debate.

Also see the thread 'Debating with Christians'. [ /QUOTE]

Might I make the recommendation to you also, of reading two things?

the thread, A Word about debate, in General discussion
http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24609&PID=172800#172800

and speaking of prophets or prophesy in China;
http://www.sacred-texts.com/journals/oc/pc-ilni.htm

We are trying to help you come out of the neanderthal age Abu.

Salaam.

Edited by Caringheart - 16 January 2013 at 11:12am

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Originally posted by Matt...

Wed, 16 Jan 2013 08:54:44 +0000

Author: Abu Loren
Subject: 24611
Posted: 16 January 2013 at 8:54am

Originally posted by Matt Browne

Originally posted by Caringheart

Abu Loren, I understand that you completely believe in what you believe in, but I do not. You have been free to challenge me, have you not? I also challenge what you believe.

Caringheart, according to the Sharia challenging Islam is a crime.

Challenging Christianity used to be a crime, but the Inquisition ended centuries ago. Because Christians are used to challenges and critical thinking and debate we sent people to the moon and invented web browsers and the software Islamicity runs on.

Most Christians are secure in their faith, so we can also handle insults. Yet insults in Islam mean the death penalty. Many Muslims are not yet secure in their faith. They are outraged when it comes to questioning their faith.

Many Muslims would choose to leave Islam, but by making apostacy a crime that requires the death penalty, these Muslims are trapped. They have to pretend to be Muslims and the Ummah proudly proclaims that Islam is the fastest growing religion. What an absurd miscalculation.

Why do progressive Muslims not organize demonstrations against the death penalty for apostacy. Why does the silent majority who want reform remain silent?

So says the know it all NAZI Herr Matthias Braun.

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Originally posted...

Wed, 16 Jan 2013 07:27:22 +0000

Author: Matt Browne
Subject: 24611
Posted: 16 January 2013 at 7:27am

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Originally posted by TG12345 Diostebendiga.Cristo...

Wed, 16 Jan 2013 04:58:07 +0000

Author: TG12345
Subject: 24611
Posted: 16 January 2013 at 4:58am

Originally posted by TG12345

Diostebendiga.

Cristo Vive!

Originally posted by Abu Loren

You are right. I am scared and I want to run as far away from your st**idity as possible.

If saying that makes you feel more competent, go ahead...

Originally posted by Abu Loren

So you think that God should have sent Prophet Musa (Alayhi Salaam) to Emperor Ming in China? Surely that would have been pointless as the Children of Israel were in bondage in Egypt!Read the Holy Qur'an fully and then come back and debate.

That's funny, because earlier you just wrote this is our 'last debate' and that I'm 'deaf, blind and dumb' anyways.

I don't think that according to the Quran God should have sent Moses to Emperor Ming. He did though send him to the Pharaoh, to call him to repentance and to let the Israelites go. It's there in the text.

You can deny it all you want. But this is what your holy book says.

Moses was a Prophet. God sent him to Pharaoh and his people and told them to stop sinning and come to God, and to also let the people of Israel go. They refused. Moses took his people and left Egypt. The pursuing Egyptians were drowned. He tried to take his people to the Holy Land but they would not enter because they were afraid to fight the people there. So they went into the desert. They worshiped a golden calf and committed other sins. God gave Moses the Torah.

These are only some things that the Quran teaches about Moses.

Originally posted by Abu Loren

Also see the thread 'Debating with Christians'.

I saw it. I feel the same way about some non-Christians who debate Christianity.

I have been able to refute your rebuttals, and so you get mad and say this will be our last debate and call me st**id.

Fine. Say whatever you want to say.

I will keep being a witness to God regardless of what you think or don't think.

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Originally posted by TG12345 Diostebendiga.Cristo...

Wed, 16 Jan 2013 01:54:17 +0000

Author: Abu Loren
Subject: 24611
Posted: 16 January 2013 at 1:54am

Originally posted by TG12345

Diostebendiga.

Cristo Vive!

Also see the thread 'Debating with Christians'.

Edited by Abu Loren - 16 January 2013 at 1:55am

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Salaam Alaikum, Abu Loren. Originally...

Tue, 15 Jan 2013 22:08:23 +0000

Author: TG12345
Subject: 24611
Posted: 15 January 2013 at 10:08pm

Salaam Alaikum, Abu Loren.

Originally posted by TG12345

20:42-29

"Go, thou and thy brother, with My Signs, and slacken not, either of you, in keeping Me in remembrance.

"Go, both of you, to Pharaoh, for he has indeed transgressed all bounds;

"But speak to him mildly; perchance he may take warning or fear (Allah)."

They (Moses and Aaron) said: "Our Lord! We fear lest he hasten with insolence against us, or lest he transgress all bounds."

He said: "Fear not: for I am with you: I hear and see (everything).

"So go ye both to him, and say, 'Verily we are messengers sent by thy Lord: Send forth, therefore, the Children of Israel with us, and afflict them not: with a Sign, indeed, have we come from thy Lord! and peace to all who follow guidance!

"'Verily it has been revealed to us that the Penalty (awaits) those who reject and turn away.'"

http://quran.com/20

26:10,11

Behold, thy Lord called Moses: "Go to the people of iniquity,-

"The people of the Pharaoh: will they not fear Allah?"

http://quran.com/26

Unless you are going to claim that Pharaoh was Jewish and so were his people, it is pretty obvious that according to the Quran, God sent Moses to the Egyptians as well as to the Israelites.

Originally posted by Abu Loren

So you get your information from anti-Islamic sites? [/QUOTE]
No, the Quran.

Originally posted by Abu Loren

This is their favourite topic, which nobody seems to understand.Let me explain it again.Prophet Musa (Alayhi Salaam) an Israelite was sent to Pharoah an Egyptian who was oppressing his people the Israelites. He was sent to pharoah to free his people and not as their Prophet. If God wanted to send a Prophet to the Egyptians then he would have chosen an Egyptian. Get it? [/QUOTE]
Moses was a prophet. He was sent to the Pharaoh to tell him to let the Israelites go and to invite him to worship God. This is what the other prophets did to their people.

He was sent to Pharaoh and his people as well as to the Israelite people. Some of the Pharaoh's magicians repented and he killed them. They died because they accepted the message of God that Moses was sent to them to bring.

Clearly the Quran teaches that God sent the prophet Moses to both the Egyptian leaders and to the Israelite people. He told both peoples to turn to God and called them on their sins.

Your statement

"If God wanted to send a Prophet to the Egyptians then he would have chosen an Egyptian."

is not true, because according to your own faith, He sent them a Jew.

[QUOTE=Abu Loren]By the way, this is my last 'debate' with you as you don't have any knowledge nor taqwa. I've wasted my time already going back and forth debating with somebody who is like cattle, deaf, dumb and blind.

In other words, you are unable to prove your assertions or disprove mine, so you are going to insult me and run away.

Feel free to do that. I will keep praying for you my friend. God loves you and perhaps one day you will come to Him.

[QUOTE=Abu Loren]Adios Amigo!

Diostebendiga.

Cristo Vive!

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Originally posted by Abu LorenSo...

Tue, 15 Jan 2013 20:37:00 +0000

Author: Caringheart
Subject: 24611
Posted: 15 January 2013 at 8:37pm

Originally posted by Abu Loren

So you get your information from anti-Islamic sites?

By the way, this is my last 'debate' with you as you don't have any knowledge nor taqwa. I've wasted my time already going back and forth debating with somebody who is like cattle, deaf, dumb and blind.

Adios Amigo!

Ad hominem again?

You are funny. TG is so not anti-Islamic.

Peace Abu.

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Originally posted by TG12345I...

Tue, 15 Jan 2013 20:26:03 +0000

Author: nospam001
Subject: 24611
Posted: 15 January 2013 at 8:26pm

Originally posted by TG12345

I don't believe God would tell people His word can be trusted, and then lie to them. I don't believe Muslims believe Him to be like that either.

Maybe not, but my conjectures are based on some ideas found in modern Christian theodicy.

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Originally posted by TG12345 20:42-29"Go,...

Tue, 15 Jan 2013 18:57:56 +0000

Author: Abu Loren
Subject: 24611
Posted: 15 January 2013 at 6:57pm

Originally posted by TG12345

20:42-29

"Go, thou and thy brother, with My Signs, and slacken not, either of you, in keeping Me in remembrance.

"Go, both of you, to Pharaoh, for he has indeed transgressed all bounds;

"But speak to him mildly; perchance he may take warning or fear (Allah)."

They (Moses and Aaron) said: "Our Lord! We fear lest he hasten with insolence against us, or lest he transgress all bounds."

He said: "Fear not: for I am with you: I hear and see (everything).

"'Verily it has been revealed to us that the Penalty (awaits) those who reject and turn away.'"

http://quran.com/20

26:10,11

Behold, thy Lord called Moses: "Go to the people of iniquity,-

"The people of the Pharaoh: will they not fear Allah?"

http://quran.com/26

Unless you are going to claim that Pharaoh was Jewish and so were his people, it is pretty obvious that according to the Quran, God sent Moses to the Egyptians as well as to the Israelites.

So you get your information from anti-Islamic sites?

This is their favourite topic, which nobody seems to understand.

Let me explain it again.

Prophet Musa (Alayhi Salaam) an Israelite was sent to Pharoah an Egyptian who was oppressing his people the Israelites. He was sent to pharoah to free his people and not as their Prophet. If God wanted to send a Prophet to the Egyptians then he would have chosen an Egyptian. Get it?

Adios Amigo!

Edited by Abu Loren - 15 January 2013 at 6:58pm

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Originally posted by nospam001 Originally...

Tue, 15 Jan 2013 18:43:21 +0000

Author: TG12345
Subject: 24611
Posted: 15 January 2013 at 6:43pm

Originally posted by nospam001

Originally posted by TG12345

The inconsistencies and errors that are found in it prove to me that it cannot be from God, since God does not make mistakes.

But a 'crack' need not be a 'mistake', if it was done intentionally, eg. to test people's faith.

I don't believe God would tell people His word can be trusted, and then lie to them. I don't believe Muslims believe Him to be like that either.

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Originally posted by TG12345The...

Tue, 15 Jan 2013 18:05:02 +0000

Author: nospam001
Subject: 24611
Posted: 15 January 2013 at 6:05pm

Originally posted by TG12345

The inconsistencies and errors that are found in it prove to me that it cannot be from God, since God does not make mistakes.

But a 'crack' need not be a 'mistake', if it was done intentionally, eg. to test people's faith.

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Originally posted by TG12345I...

Tue, 15 Jan 2013 16:54:29 +0000

Author: TG12345
Subject: 24611
Posted: 15 January 2013 at 4:54pm

Originally posted by TG12345

I have other examples but because of time constraints will leave it here for now. Looking forward to hearing your thoughts.

Originally posted by W.S.

Thanks for the reply! For now, I'll just say that I have discerned a couple of cracks before, and now more of them appeared. Take care yourself!

Salaam Alaikum, W.S.

I just wanted to say that although I believe it is very evident that there are a lot of 'cracks' in what Islam teaches, there is also a lot of good in it as well.

Your faith correctly teaches there is one God. It correctly teaches that He is good. It teaches that He sent prophets, and it teaches that He wants the world to come to know Him. It correctly teaches respect to parents, care for the vulnerable, disdain of adultery, fornication, homosexuality and other sins. It teaches many good things.

It does not promote murdering non-Muslims. It does not promote terrorism. It does not promote pedophilia. It does not teach the many evil things that people who are bigoted towards it and towards Muslims claim it does.

It does, however, tragically deny what God for us on the cross. It teaches Jesus was a prophet and respects Him, but it fails to see He was much more than that. It contradicts His teachings on love for enemies. I think these are the biggest problems that exist with it.

The inconsistencies and errors that are found in it prove to me that it cannot be from God, since God does not make mistakes.

Remember to seek after Him, though. Pray to Him, and ask Him to guide you. I pray He leads you to Him and that you accept what Christ did for you and us all on the cross.

As you look at the 'cracks' in Islam, remember to keep God first in your mind though. Do not allow them to take you away from Him. Remember that none of us are perfect, and do not allow the cracks you see to judge either Muhammad or your fellow Muslim brothers and sisters who do love Him and believe they are serving and worshiping Him to the best of their ability.

Allah Akhbar.

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Originally posted by nospam001 Originally...

Tue, 15 Jan 2013 16:35:53 +0000

Author: TG12345
Subject: 24611
Posted: 15 January 2013 at 4:35pm

Originally posted by nospam001

Originally posted by TG12345

There are many Muslims on this forum, like Nausheen and W.S. and rational and others who I have never seen launching personal attacks. They hold true to their faith and propagate it and express their opposition to and challenge and debate beliefs that according to them are false (exactly like what we do), and do so in a way that does not involve name calling or insults or mocking another person's beliefs.

Their conduct is no less representative of Islam, if not more so actually, than Abu Loren's.

Very well said, TG.

Thanks, nospam001

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Originally posted by...

Tue, 15 Jan 2013 16:34:02 +0000

Author: TG12345
Subject: 24611
Posted: 15 January 2013 at 4:34pm

Originally posted by TG12345

I am really not trying to be insulting to you, but you haven't provided rebuttals to my points.

Originally posted by Abu Loren

Most people won't give you the time of day as you've come here to debate with Muslims without even reading the Holy Qur'an. But I feel sorry for you as you remind me of myself when I was a Christian lost and looking for answers. :)

Salaam Alaikum, Abu Loren.

You are wrong on two things.

Firstly, many people here are giving me "their time of day"... and I give them mine in return. I have had and am having some great discussions on and off this forum with Rational, W.S., Nausheen and Islamispeace.

Secondly, I am reading the Quran although I have not finished doing so yet. I just finished chapter 20.

Can I ask what made you leave Christianity and become a Muslim? How did your family and friends react when you did? What did you find appealing about Islam?

Feel free to answer all or none of these questions if this is too personal. I am just curious.

Originally posted by TG12345

1. You haven't managed to prove that Muhammad was right that 7 dates in the morning would cause that no toxins could harm a person.

Originally posted by Abu Loren

So you are aman of proof? A man of science? You want to feed a poor soul seven dates fromMedina and then put a venomous snake around his neck? OK good�.

A believerwho is sincere and who eats seven dates may be spared from death of toxins andpoison. We don�t know do we?

Why don't we know? What would be wrong with trying this out? Or are you afraid the man would die and thus Muhammad's words be proved wrong?

Originally posted by TG12345

2. You haven't managed to prove that there ever was the existence of a book called the Injil, a book that Christians allegedly believed in before they believed the Quran.

Originally posted by Abu Loren

I�ve already answered this in another thread, but likemany Christians you only want to see what you want to see.

I see what your books teach and I look at historical evidence.

Originally posted by Abu Loren

Do you accept that ProphetMusa (Alayhi Salaam) received a revelation from God and later it was writtendown into a book from and is called the Torah?

Yes.

Originally posted by Abu Loren

Do you also accept that MasihIsa (Alayhi Salaam) also recived revelations from God and it was called theInjil in Arabic. Part of these revelations are in the Gospels although it iscorrupted by man made additions and deletions. Not all of the books made itinto the Gospels as the Trinitarians hijacked it and only included their owndoctrine. [/QUOTE]

I accept that the Gospels are written accounts of Jesus and some of the things He said and did, one of the most important being His death on the cross.

Islam teaches that God gave Jesus a Book, like He gave Moses a Book and He gave Muhammad a Book.

There is no evidence of a Book that was given to Jesus or of Christians before or during Muhammad's time believing in the existence of such a book.

If the hadiths and Quran are to be believed, Christians in Muhammad's time had the Gospel with them since they were instructed to look into it to find Muhammad mentioned therein.

Also, in the hadith Bukhari we find the story of Waraqa, a Christian who met Muhammad and who wrote from the Gospel in Hebrew as much as God wanted him to write.

(1) Narrated 'Aisha: (the mother of the faithful believers) The commencement of the Divine Inspiration to Allah's Apostle was in the form of good dreams which came true like bright day light, and then the love of seclusion was bestowed upon him. He used to go in seclusion in the cave of Hira where he used to worship (Allah alone) continuously for many days before his desire to see his family. He used to take with him the journey food for the stay and then come back to (his wife) Khadija to take his food like-wise again till suddenly the Truth descended upon him while he was in the cave of Hira. The angel came to him and asked him to read. The Prophet replied, "I do not know how to read. The Prophet added, "The angel caught me (forcefully) and pressed me so hard that I could not bear it any more. He then released me and again asked me to read and I replied, 'I do not know how to read.' Thereupon he caught me again and pressed me a second time till I could not bear it any more. He then released me and again asked me to read but again I replied, 'I do not know how to read (or what shall I read)?' Thereupon he caught me for the third time and pressed me, and then released me and said, 'Read in the name of your Lord, who has created (all that exists) has created man from a clot. Read! And your Lord is the Most Generous." (96.1, 96.2, 96.3) Then Allah's Apostle returned with the Inspiration and with his heart beating severely. Then he went to Khadija bint Khuwailid and said, "Cover me! Cover me!" They covered him till his fear was over and after that he told her everything that had happened and said, "I fear that something may happen to me." Khadija replied, "Never! By Allah, Allah will never disgrace you. You keep good relations with your Kith and kin, help the poor and the destitute, serve your guests generously and assist the deserving calamity-afflicted ones." Khadija then accompanied him to her cousin Waraqa bin Naufal bin Asad bin 'Abdul 'Uzza, who, during the PreIslamic Period became a Christian and used to write the writing with Hebrew letters. He would write from the gospel in Hebrew as much as Allah wished him to write. He was an old man and had lost his eyesight. Khadija said to Waraqa, "Listen to the story of your nephew, O my cousin!" Waraqa asked, "O my nephew! What have you seen?" Allah's Apostle described whatever he had seen. Waraqa said, "This is the same one who keeps the secrets (angel Gabriel) whom Allah had sent to Moses. I wish I were young and could live up to the time when your people would turn you out." Allah's Apostle asked, "Will they drive me out?" Waraqa replied in the affirmative and said, "Anyone (man) who came with something similar to what you have brought was treated with hostility; and if I should remain alive till the day when you will be turned out then I would support you strongly." But after a few days Waraqa died and the Divine Inspiration was also paused for a while. Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah Al-Ansari while talking about the period of pause in revelation reporting the speech of the Prophet "While I was walking, all of a sudden I heard a voice from the sky. I looked up and saw the same angel who had visited me at the cave of Hira' sitting on a chair between the sky and the earth. I got afraid of him and came back home and said, 'Wrap me (in blankets).' And then Allah revealed the following Holy Verses (of Quran): 'O you (i.e. Muhammad)! wrapped up in garments!' Arise and warn (the people against Allah's Punishment),... up to 'and desert the idols.' (74.1-5) After this the revelation started coming strongly, frequently and regularly." (Book #1, Hadith #3)

http://www.searchtruth.com/searchHadith.php?keyword=gospel&translator=1&search=1&book=&start=0&records_display=10&search_word=all

Clearly, the "Injil" existed in the time of Muhammad, since God had someone write from it and Christians were ordered to look into it to find Muhammad... unless you are suggesting that God ordered an elderly man to write from a corrupted book and that He ordered people to look into corrupted books to find Muhammad mentioned therein...

Originally posted by TG12345

3. You haven't shown me a verse from the Quran that calls on adulterers to be stoned to death, even though Muhammad claimed he judged the shepherd's son and the woman who committed adultery with him on the basis of the Quran.

Originally posted by Abu Loren

Again I told you in another thread that when ProphetMuhammad (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) was asked to judge a Jew he asked for theTorah, and as you know the Torah is also from God so it is also �Alllah�s book(Laws)�.

Yet we are not discussing that, we are discussing Hadith #365, in Bukhari. You stated very clearly that Allahs' Book (Laws) was in reference to the Quran.

Originally posted by TG12345

Salaam Alaikum, Abu Loren.

Is "Allah's Book" a reference to the Quran in this hadith? I am assuming this is the case, since I don't see why a Bedouin would want Muhammad to judge his son on the basis of the Torah.

"Allah's Book" in this hadith refers to the Quran, right? If I am wrong, please correct me. Thanks.

(34) Narrated Abu Huraira: While we were with Allah's Apostle a bedouin got up and said, "O Allah's Apostle! Settle my case according to Allah's Book (Laws)." Then his opponent got up and said, "O Allah's Apostle! He has said the truth! Settle his case according to Allah's Book (Laws.) and allow me to speak," He said, "My son was a laborer for this man and he committed illegal sexual intercourse with his wife. The people told me that my son should be stoned to death but I ransomed him with one-hundred sheep and a slave girl. Then I asked the religious learned people and they told me that his wife should be stoned to death and my son should receive one-hundred lashes and be sentenced to one year of exile.' The Prophet said, "By Him in Whose Hands my life is, I will judge between you according to Allah's Book (Laws): As for the slave girl and the sheep, they are to be returned; and as for your son, he shall receive one-hundred lashes and will be exiled for one year. You, O Unais!" addressing a man from Bani Aslam, "Go tomorrow morning to the wife of this (man) and if she confesses, then stone her to death." The next morning Unais went to the wife and she confessed, and he stoned her to death. (Book #91, Hadith #365)

http://www.searchtruth.com/searchHadith.php?keyword=allah\%27s+book&translator=1&search=1&book=&start=0&records_display=50&search_word=exact

Abu Loren: Yes from the Holy Qur'an. 100 lashes for fornication and stoning for adultery.

Originally posted by Abu Loren

The Torah is also corrupted by man made additions and deletions.

Interesting view. If this is the case, why did God order the Jews to refer to it to find Muhammad mentioned in it?

Originally posted by Abu Loren

I�ve also provided the verse from the Holy Qur�an whichstipulates death for an adulterer. he Prophet (SalAllahu Alayhi Sallam) tellsus that it is by stoning that this punishment is to be carried out. Otherwise,we could kill that person in any manner of things.

The verse doesn't actually say to kill them but to confine them in their homes until death takes them or God provides a better way.

Stoning is not mentioned in the Quran. You could argue God revealed it to Muhammad outside the Quran, but it is not included in it. Muhammad agreed to judge the woman by the Quran.

The Quran doesn't say to stone her, or even to kill her.

Furthermore, even if "until death takes them" is a reference to stoning, he did not have her confined to her home as the verse says must be done before she is to die.

[QUOTE]

Originally posted by TG12345

4. You haven't explained how is it possible that allegedly God told humanity that milk is pleasant for those who drink it, even though there are people with milk allergies who this pure drink literally kills. (refer to point made above to W.S.)

Originally posted by Abu Loren

This is silly just like Christianity. Of course milk isgood for humanity. You want God to tell us �Oh those with milk allergies pleasedon�t drink it�. [QUOTE]

Are people with milk allergies not a part of humanity?

Or is milk pleasant for them too... even if it causes nausea, vomiting, anaphylaxis and even death in some of them?

If a doctor came out and said "aspirin is good for those who eat it" without stating a disclaimer that for some it can be deadly and to make sure a person is not allergic before taking it, he or she would probably lose their license. Someone who didn't know better who took their advice could possibly end up dead.

Originally posted by TG12345

5. You haven't explained how it is possible that before Muhammad the prophets were all sent to their nation only, but simultaneously Moses, who we agree was an Israelite and not Egyptian, was sent to Pharaoh, who was an Egyptian. (refer to point above made by W.S.)

[QUOTE=Abu Loren] Again silliness extraordinaire. You started a threadasking questions about Prophet Musa (Alayhi Salaam) and we gave you the answerswith which you were satisfied. [/QUOTE]

True. You and other Muslims managed to convince me that Islam teaches that Moses was an Israelite and Pharaoh an Egyptian. This is what the Bible teaches too.

[QUOTE=Abu Loren] Prophet Musa (Alayhi Salaam) was not sent toEgyptians but to set free his people the Children of Israel who were in bondageand who were oppressed with a great oppression. Do you not know that he tookthem out of Egypt and took them to the Promised Land? Did he take the Egyptiansor the Jews?

Moses was not sent to the Egyptians, according to the Quran? Really???

20:42-29

"Go, thou and thy brother, with My Signs, and slacken not, either of you, in keeping Me in remembrance.

"Go, both of you, to Pharaoh, for he has indeed transgressed all bounds;

"But speak to him mildly; perchance he may take warning or fear (Allah)."

They (Moses and Aaron) said: "Our Lord! We fear lest he hasten with insolence against us, or lest he transgress all bounds."

He said: "Fear not: for I am with you: I hear and see (everything).

"'Verily it has been revealed to us that the Penalty (awaits) those who reject and turn away.'"

http://quran.com/20

26:10,11

Behold, thy Lord called Moses: "Go to the people of iniquity,-

"The people of the Pharaoh: will they not fear Allah?"

http://quran.com/26

Unless you are going to claim that Pharaoh was Jewish and so were his people, it is pretty obvious that according to the Quran, God sent Moses to the Egyptians as well as to the Israelites.

He sent him to warn the Egyptians, and to lead the Israelites out of Egypt.

According to Muhammad, however, all prophets before him were sent only to their nation. Moses wasn't.

[QUOTE=Abu Loren] If you say things like Muhammad was an intellignet person and that he meant well then nobody here will take you seriously.

Would you rather have me refer to him as a "devil", like you refer to Paul? Or should I call him a "pedophile" and a "terrorist"?

Or would you want me to lie and say I believe he was a prophet when I don't?

I will neither stoop to a low level and use insulting language, or lie. I will be honest about my belief.

Whether or not you take me seriously because of this matters quite little to be honest with you.

Allah Akhbar.

Edited by TG12345 - 15 January 2013 at 5:32pm

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Originally posted by...

Tue, 15 Jan 2013 14:55:38 +0000

Author: Caringheart
Subject: 24611
Posted: 15 January 2013 at 2:55pm

Originally posted by TG12345

Hi Caringheart,

Just a comment on one thing you said to Abu Loren.

note: "Believe me I will stoop even lower...."
Doesn't this show what kind of god you serve? Doesn't it show the blackness upon your soul?

I don't know exactly what you are trying to say here, but if you are implying that Abu Loren's arrogance is an indicator of Islam please don't say that.

There are many Muslims on this forum, like Nausheen and W.S. and rational and others who I have never seen launching personal attacks. They hold true to their faith and propagate it and express their opposition to and challenge and debate beliefs that according to them are false (exactly like what we do), and do so in a way that does not involve name calling or insults or mocking another person's beliefs.

Their conduct is no less representative of Islam, if not more so actually, than Abu Loren's.

Peace in Christ.

*If I misunderstood your words and you were trying to say something else, please accept my apologies, but to me this sounded like you were implying that.

Oh no... and no need for apologies. I only meant what I am always saying. I meant it is a reflection on the heart of the individual, that perhaps they are the one who is astray and might want to examine themselves.
I completely agree with you about others on this forum. This is always my point, that we need to see each other as individuals and never make an opinion based on lumping people into categories. We need to be discerning in how we define a believer, and an unbeliever. God knows those who are His and it is shown in the behaviors of the individual, not by the name by which they call themselves.
Sorry, I am getting preachy.
I appreciate your statement.
Salaam,
CH

As water reflects the face,
so one�s life reflects the heart.[a]

Footnotes:
a. Proverbs 27:19 Or so others reflect your heart back to you

Edited by Caringheart - 19 January 2013 at 6:55pm

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Originally posted by W.S.I'll...

Tue, 15 Jan 2013 14:17:40 +0000

Author: nospam001
Subject: 24611
Posted: 15 January 2013 at 2:17pm

Originally posted by W.S.

I'll just say that I have discerned a couple of cracks before, and now more of them appeared.

Speaking of cracks, how about verses 50:6 and 67:3, as discussed recently in the topic Literal or figurative: the sky 'has no cracks'...

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Originally posted by TG12345There...

Tue, 15 Jan 2013 14:01:10 +0000

Author: nospam001
Subject: 24611
Posted: 15 January 2013 at 2:01pm

Their conduct is no less representative of Islam, if not more so actually, than Abu Loren's.

Very well said, TG.

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Originally posted by Abu Loren Originally...

Tue, 15 Jan 2013 13:31:23 +0000

Author: TG12345
Subject: 24611
Posted: 15 January 2013 at 1:31pm

Originally posted by Abu Loren

Originally posted by TG12345

Paul was a man of God, who met Jesus personally and taught about Him and suffered for his faith in Him. Muhammad believed in God and believed he was His prophet. In spite of this, he said some things that are evidently not true and contradicted the teachings of the same book he claimed God sent down to him.

You are right, it isn't fair to compare Paul to him.

However, I will not judge Muhammad as you judge Paul. I leave judgement to God, and will instead witness to the Truth.

Apart from Paul's cliam that he saw 'the risen Christ' show me where Paul met Jesus (Alayhi Salaam)?

He met Him on the road to Damascus. His words were backed up by his actions. Why would a person who had so much power and prestige gve that up to be mocked and persecuted?

Where did Muhammad meet Gabriel? Who witnessed this alleged encounter?

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Hi Caringheart, Just a comment...

Tue, 15 Jan 2013 13:29:43 +0000

Author: TG12345
Subject: 24611
Posted: 15 January 2013 at 1:29pm

Hi Caringheart,

Just a comment on one thing you said to Abu Loren.

note: "Believe me I will stoop even lower...."
Doesn't this show what kind of god you serve? Doesn't it show the blackness upon your soul?

I don't know exactly what you are trying to say here, but if you are implying that Abu Loren's arrogance is an indicator of Islam please don't say that.

There are many Muslims on this forum, like Nausheen and W.S. and rational and others who I have never seen launching personal attacks. They hold true to their faith and propagate it and express their opposition to and challenge and debate beliefs that according to them are false (exactly like what we do), and do so in a way that does not involve name calling or insults or mocking another person's beliefs.

Their conduct is no less representative of Islam, if not more so actually, than Abu Loren's.

Peace in Christ.

*If I misunderstood your words and you were trying to say something else, please accept my apologies, but to me this sounded like you were implying that.

Edited by TG12345 - 15 January 2013 at 1:32pm

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Originally posted by TG12345 Originally...

Tue, 15 Jan 2013 12:49:02 +0000

Author: Caringheart
Subject: 24611
Posted: 15 January 2013 at 12:49pm

Originally posted by TG12345

Originally posted by Abu Loren

By the way, you can't compare Paul to Muhammad (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) because Paul was a charlatan and Muhammad (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) was a Prophet of God Almighty.

I have yet to have any muslim tell me what it is that they find so objectionable in the teaching of Paul.

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Originally posted by Abu...

Tue, 15 Jan 2013 11:50:26 +0000

Author: Caringheart
Subject: 24611
Posted: 15 January 2013 at 11:50am

Originally posted by Abu Loren

Originally posted by TG12345

Funny how she never called you that.

What makes you need to stoop so low to need to resort to name calling?

You and uncaringheart have never read the Holy Qur'an yet you both want to debate Islam? If you haven't realised it already what you are doing is sowing doubts in the believers minds and this is a grat sin. Go back and read uncaringheart's posts and I've said before that what s/he writes is poison.

Believe me I will stoop even lower....

Peace Abu,

I will correct you. I am reading and studying the quran. I have told you this before but will repeat for the sake of others who may be reading.

Is it a poison if I am saving you from evil? If you are following someone, something, not God? Shouldn't you want to be sure? If I can see the problems with your teaching wouldn't I be doing you an injustice NOT to point them out?
Don't you point out the problems you see with Christianity in an effort to save their souls? Or do you have some other purpose?

My purpose is to see souls, and lives, preserved and saved for their Maker.

A poison?
Never once do I speak of not following God and His ways, seeking God and His ways.. being a believer.

Salaam,
CH

note: "Believe me I will stoop even lower...."
Doesn't this show what kind of god you serve? Doesn't it show the blackness upon your soul?

Edited by Caringheart - 15 January 2013 at 12:41pm

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Originally posted by TG12345I...

Tue, 15 Jan 2013 08:45:32 +0000

Author: W.S.
Subject: 24611
Posted: 15 January 2013 at 8:45am

Originally posted by TG12345

I have other examples but because of time constraints will leave it here for now. Looking forward to hearing your thoughts.

Thanks for the reply! For now, I'll just say that I have discerned a couple of cracks before, and now more of them appeared. Take care yourself!

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Originally posted by TG12345I...

Tue, 15 Jan 2013 03:35:17 +0000

Author: Abu Loren
Subject: 24611
Posted: 15 January 2013 at 3:35am

Originally posted by TG12345

I am really not trying to be insulting to you, but you haven't provided rebuttals to my points.

Most people won't give you the time of day as you've come here to debate with Muslims without even reading the Holy Qur'an. But I feel sorry for you as you remind me of myself when I was a Christian lost and looking for answers. :)

1. You haven't managed to prove that Muhammad was right that 7 dates in the morning would cause that no toxins could harm a person.

So you are aman of proof? A man of science? You want to feed a poor soul seven dates fromMedina and then put a venomous snake around his neck? OK good�.

A believerwho is sincere and who eats seven dates may be spared from death of toxins andpoison. We don�t know do we?

2. You haven't managed to prove that there ever was the existence of a book called the Injil, a book that Christians allegedly believed in before they believed the Quran.

I�ve already answered this in another thread, but likemany Christians you only want to see what you want to see. Do you accept that ProphetMusa (Alayhi Salaam) received a revelation from God and later it was writtendown into a book from and is called the Torah? Do you also accept that MasihIsa (Alayhi Salaam) also recived revelations from God and it was called theInjil in Arabic. Part of these revelations are in the Gospels although it iscorrupted by man made additions and deletions. Not all of the books made itinto the Gospels as the Trinitarians hijacked it and only included their owndoctrine.

3. You haven't shown me a verse from the Quran that calls on adulterers to be stoned to death, even though Muhammad claimed he judged the shepherd's son and the woman who committed adultery with him on the basis of the Quran.

I�ve also provided the verse from the Holy Qur�an whichstipulates death for an adulterer. The Prophet (SalAllahu Alayhi Sallam) tellsus that it is by stoning that this punishment is to be carried out. Otherwise,we could kill that person in any manner of things.

4. You haven't explained how is it possible that allegedly God told humanity that milk is pleasant for those who drink it, even though there are people with milk allergies who this pure drink literally kills. (refer to point made above to W.S.)

This is silly just like Christianity. Of course milk isgood for humanity. You want God to tell us �Oh those with milk allergies pleasedon�t drink it�.

5. You haven't explained how it is possible that before Muhammad the prophets were all sent to their nation only, but simultaneously Moses, who we agree was an Israelite and not Egyptian, was sent to Pharaoh, who was an Egyptian. (refer to point above made by W.S.)

Again silliness extraordinaire. You started a threadasking questions about Prophet Musa (Alayhi Salaam) and we gave you the answerswith which you were satisfied. Prophet Musa (Alayhi Salaam) was not sent toEgyptians but to set free his people the Children of Israel who were in bondageand who were oppressed with a great oppression. Do you not know that he tookthem out of Egypt and took them to the Promised Land? Did he take the Egyptiansor the Jews?

[/QUOTE]
If you say things like Muhammad was an intellignet person and that he meant well then nobody here will take you seriously.

Edited by Abu Loren - 15 January 2013 at 4:19am

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Originally posted by TG12345Paul...

Tue, 15 Jan 2013 02:20:40 +0000

Author: Abu Loren
Subject: 24611
Posted: 15 January 2013 at 2:20am

Apart from Paul's cliam that he saw 'the risen Christ' show me where Paul met Jesus (Alayhi Salaam)?

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Originally posted by TG12345 Funny...

Tue, 15 Jan 2013 02:17:55 +0000

Author: Abu Loren
Subject: 24611
Posted: 15 January 2013 at 2:17am

Originally posted by TG12345

Funny how she never called you that.

What makes you need to stoop so low to need to resort to name calling?

Believe me I will stoop even lower....

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : "Ad-hominem attacks"I...

Mon, 14 Jan 2013 22:29:19 +0000

Author: Caringheart
Subject: 24611
Posted: 14 January 2013 at 10:29pm

"Ad-hominem attacks"

I had to look it up;

An ad hominem argument has the basic form:

Person A makes claim X.
Person B makes an attack on person A.
Therefore A's claim must be false.

The reason why an Ad Hominem (of any kind) is a fallacy is that thecharacter, circumstances, or actions of a person do not (in most cases)have a bearing on the truth or falsity of the claim being made (or thequality of the argument being made).

: appealing to feelings or prejudices rather than intellect

: marked by or being an attack on an opponent's character rather than by an answer to the contentions made

Often, ad hominem attacks are used subtly in order to influence the views of spectators. There are many forms of this, such as pointing out bad things they (The opponent) have done in the past in arguments about morality (They are not attacking the person's points about morality, they are attacking the person)

Ad hominem attacks are hardly ever used plainly, and people who do are generally trolls who want to provoke people to fight. These are often partnered with not even responding to the person's post, using arguments that make no sense, and thus have never been heard of, then mocking their opponent when they fail to find a rebuttal, and many other such techniques. (this one reminds me not of Abu but of another on this forum).

Ad hominem attacks can take the form of overtly attacking somebody, or more subtly casting doubt on their character or personal attributes as a way to discredit their argument. The result of an ad hom attack can be to undermine someone's case without actually having to engage with it.

The person presenting an argument is attacked instead of theargument itself.

Very educational lesson for me. I don't know that I would say that this was what Abu was doing, but I certainly know someone else who does it.

Edited by Caringheart - 14 January 2013 at 10:34pm

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Originally posted by nospam001In...

Mon, 14 Jan 2013 21:58:59 +0000

Author: Caringheart
Subject: 24611
Posted: 14 January 2013 at 9:58pm

Originally posted by nospam001

In normal conversation it can be hard to adequately express how strongly one believes something.

So, to help you really convey the power of your conviction, let us imagine an alternative set of beliefs, one which is identical to your own except for one thing, namely that although your loyalty is still greatly appreciated by God (if not grandly rewarded in heaven), there is no guarantee of any heavenly compensation for the torture victim. (Or more simply, you could assume she is not the right kind of Christian and is therefore not eligible to earn herself any 'loyalty points' for her pains.)

I know I'm getting really hypothetical here, but please bear with me.

As before, let's also suppose you are in absolutely no doubt that you could stop her being tortured simply by saying something you don't actually believe.

Under these conditions, would you still pray for the strength to speak your truth at any cost? I guess the answer must be yes, given that 'being faithful to God' is all that matters, and it's 'not about heavenly reward or lack of it'.

In other words, so much unrewarded suffering would be the price she pays to help you demonstrate the indestructible faith you have in God.

I know you did say "It would be infinitely more painful and horrific for me to see them suffer than to see me suffer." If that's what you really meant, then... wow.

Now, what if there were not one but millions of innocent (but non-Christian) children you could save simply by uttering one falsehood? To make it even trickier, what if, by doggedly affirming your true faith, you were also certain to receive vast material advantage (money, power, good health, etc..)?

You get the idea. Do feel free to add even more outrageously extreme conditions as you see fit.

Very thought-provoking you are.
These are my thoughts;
I imagine I might condemn myself to hell to spare the one I love.
I wonder if I might then be forgiven on judgement day, because I laid down my life for love of another, and my motives were pure?
"Greater love has no man than this, but that he lay down his life for another."
Hmmmm......

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Hi Caringheart, TG12345 Ad-hominem...

Mon, 14 Jan 2013 21:26:05 +0000

Author: nospam001
Subject: 24611
Posted: 14 January 2013 at 9:26pm

Hi Caringheart, TG12345

Ad-hominem attacks are always counterproductive. I think Abu Loren realises that.

So don't worry, and don't expect him to apologise.

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Originally posted by TG12345What...

Mon, 14 Jan 2013 20:18:00 +0000

Author: nospam001
Subject: 24611
Posted: 14 January 2013 at 8:18pm

Originally posted by TG12345

What have you done to combat injustice and war in the world?

Not a lot, compared to your own daring exploits in Palestine, TG. That's for sure.

Originally posted by TG12345

Originally posted by nospam001

Supposing you lied, and thereby ended the torture, there'd be less suffering all round but correspondingly less heavenly reward, yes?

It's not about heavenly reward or lack of it. It's about being faithful to God.

In normal conversation it can be hard to adequately express how strongly one believes something.

I know I'm getting really hypothetical here, but please bear with me.

As before, let's also suppose you are in absolutely no doubt that you could stop her being tortured simply by saying something you don't actually believe.

In other words, so much unrewarded suffering would be the price she pays to help you demonstrate the indestructible faith you have in God.

I know you did say "It would be infinitely more painful and horrific for me to see them suffer than to see me suffer." If that's what you really meant, then... wow.

You get the idea. Do feel free to add even more outrageously extreme conditions as you see fit.

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Originally posted by TG12345 Funny...

Mon, 14 Jan 2013 19:52:47 +0000

Author: Caringheart
Subject: 24611
Posted: 14 January 2013 at 7:52pm

Originally posted by TG12345

[QUOTE=Abu Loren]
Funny how she never called you that.

What makes you need to stoop so low to need to resort to name calling?

I appreciate the defense TG. I actually had written something to Abu which I chose not to post on the forum.

Abu Loren,
I would like to share this with you now... on Jan 10th I wrote this in my offline journal;

believe it or not, I even understand why you see me as a demon. I am challenging your beliefs and to you this is something from the devil.
but do I see you as a demon for challenging mine? No, I see you as human.
It actually really does hurt me when people react as you do.

[end of journal post]

I also do not like it when I cause people distress which is what I tried to share with you on Jan. 10th.
However I do not see what purpose it serves to not allow me to express my thoughts, my ideas, my beliefs. You share yours no matter how offensive to others they may be. (I think I have said that already.)
If you feel my thoughts, my ideas, my beliefs to be wrong, you are free to share that with me... but how could you share if you did not know how things seem to me.

I wish you peace,
Caringheart

Edited by Caringheart - 14 January 2013 at 7:57pm

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Originally posted by TG12345Sorry,...

Mon, 14 Jan 2013 19:34:35 +0000

Author: Caringheart
Subject: 24611
Posted: 14 January 2013 at 7:34pm

Originally posted by TG12345

Sorry, Caringheart, not trying to rude sister but what evidence is there that Muhammad got his poetry from the Psalms?

Greetings TG,

This comes from a study I did when I was wanting to know more about the rosary. I was led to learn about psalter beads and how the monks used to chant the psalms as they worked in the fields and this is how the locals came to know them as well. As the monks would chant one verse the locals would respond. I think it highly plausible that Muhammad would have been exposed to this in his travels.

Also, was Jesus not found by His parents sitting in the temple? Could not Muhammad in his young years of traveling with his uncle have been found doing the same?

Originally posted by TG12345

The Quran contains many truths and it was written by someone who was very intelligent and meant well, and I believe who got some of his knowledge from the supernatural.

I do not disagree. It contains just enough of the truth...

It also contains things that are not true,

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Originally posted by Abu...

Mon, 14 Jan 2013 19:16:36 +0000

Author: TG12345
Subject: 24611
Posted: 14 January 2013 at 7:16pm

Originally posted by Abu Loren

There is no way a mere man living in the seventh century Arbia who could produce the Holy Qur'an without devine guidance.

Originally posted by Caringheart

Of course he could if he had heard the Psalms, and I am quite sure that he must have been exposed to them in all his travels.
and poetry was the arabic way. Anyone will tell you about the poetic cadences of the arabian language that make it so lovely to listen to.

Originally posted by Abu Loren

I think I called you a demon once?....

Funny how she never called you that.

What makes you need to stoop so low to need to resort to name calling?

Edited by TG12345 - 14 January 2013 at 7:27pm

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Originally posted...

Mon, 14 Jan 2013 18:57:33 +0000

Author: TG12345
Subject: 24611
Posted: 14 January 2013 at 6:57pm

Originally posted by TG12345

It is obvious that 7 dates in the AM will not protect a person against all toxins.

It is also evident that there is no verse in the Quran that commands adulterers to be stoned to death, and that when Muhammad had the woman stoned to death he was not passing this judgement based on the Quran but on what he must have believed God revealed to him outside of it.

It is also true that Muhammad was not correct when he said that before him all prophets were sent to their nation only... since as we both know Moses was an Israelite and Pharaoh an Egyptian... yet God sent Moses to the Pharaoh as well as his own people.

The allegation that there was a book given to Jesus and that Christians in the time of Muhammad believed in it before they believed in the Quran cannot be proven.

It is very obvious from the hadiths, that Muhammad said these things... and it is very obvious that on most if not all of these points, he was wrong.

Muhammad was a very intelligent person, and I believe he meant well in wanting to follow God. Unlike your abusive and insulting terminology you use to describe Paul, I do not call him a "devil" and I do not call him a "pedophile" or "terrorist" like some misguided and bigoted 'christians' do.

It is not for me to judge Muhammad, that is God's job. He will also judge you, and judge me, and everyone on and off this forum.

I have and I will always continue to ask God for guidance. I have prayed for His guidance as I began to read the Quran and study the hadiths. He has answered my prayers... and shown me the errors that are contained in it.

I am not the one who lives in a 'fantasy world', my friend.

I hope to continue this discussion with you, and I will be praying for you and all my other Muslim and non-Christian friends that you come to know Jesus Christ.

May God guide us all to Him.

Originally posted by Abu Loren

Well good luck looking for 'evidence' but believing in God is through faith.[/QUOTE]

I have faith in a God who doesn't make mistakes. I pointed out some of the mistakes and errors in the Quran and hadiths. You are evidently unable to refute any of what I have said, so you wish me 'good luck'.

[QUOTE=Abu Loren]By the way, you can't compare Paul to Muhammad (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) because Paul was a charlatan and Muhammad (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) was a Prophet of God Almighty.

Paul was a man of God, who met Jesus personally and taught about Him and suffered for his faith in Him. Muhammad believed in God and believed he was His prophet. In spite of this, he said some things that are evidently not true and contradicted the teachings of the same book he claimed God sent down to him.

You are right, it isn't fair to compare Paul to him.

However, I will not judge Muhammad as you judge Paul. I leave judgement to God, and will instead witness to the Truth.

Edited by TG12345 - 14 January 2013 at 7:00pm

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Originally posted by TG12345 ...

Mon, 14 Jan 2013 18:46:17 +0000

Author: Abu Loren
Subject: 24611
Posted: 14 January 2013 at 6:46pm

Originally posted by TG12345

It is obvious that 7 dates in the AM will not protect a person against all toxins.

It is also evident that there is no verse in the Quran that commands adulterers to be stoned to death, and that when Muhammad had the woman stoned to death he was not passing this judgement based on the Quran but on what he must have believed God revealed to him outside of it.

It is also true that Muhammad was not correct when he said that before him all prophets were sent to their nation only... since as we both know Moses was an Israelite and Pharaoh an Egyptian... yet God sent Moses to the Pharaoh as well as his own people.

The allegation that there was a book given to Jesus and that Christians in the time of Muhammad believed in it before they believed in the Quran cannot be proven.

It is very obvious from the hadiths, that Muhammad said these things... and it is very obvious that on most if not all of these points, he was wrong.

Muhammad was a very intelligent person, and I believe he meant well in wanting to follow God. Unlike your abusive and insulting terminology you use to describe Paul, I do not call him a "devil" and I do not call him a "pedophile" or "terrorist" like some misguided and bigoted 'christians' do.

It is not for me to judge Muhammad, that is God's job. He will also judge you, and judge me, and everyone on and off this forum.

I have and I will always continue to ask God for guidance. I have prayed for His guidance as I began to read the Quran and study the hadiths. He has answered my prayers... and shown me the errors that are contained in it.

I am not the one who lives in a 'fantasy world', my friend.

I hope to continue this discussion with you, and I will be praying for you and all my other Muslim and non-Christian friends that you come to know Jesus Christ.

May God guide us all to Him.

Well good luck looking for 'evidence' but believing in God is through faith.

By the way, you can't compare Paul to Muhammad (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) because Paul was a charlatan and Muhammad (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) was a Prophet of God Almighty.

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Originally posted by Caringheart Originally...

Mon, 14 Jan 2013 18:37:37 +0000

Author: Abu Loren
Subject: 24611
Posted: 14 January 2013 at 6:37pm

Originally posted by Caringheart

Originally posted by Abu Loren

There is no way a mere man living in the seventh century Arbia who could produce the Holy Qur'an without devine guidance.

Of course he could if he had heard the Psalms, and I am quite sure that he must have been exposed to them in all his travels.
and poetry was the arabic way. Anyone will tell you about the poetic cadences of the arabian language that make it so lovely to listen to.

I think I called you a demon once?....

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Originally posted by Caringheart Originally...

Mon, 14 Jan 2013 18:20:41 +0000

Author: TG12345
Subject: 24611
Posted: 14 January 2013 at 6:20pm

Originally posted by Caringheart

Originally posted by Abu Loren

There is no way a mere man living in the seventh century Arbia who could produce the Holy Qur'an without devine guidance.

????

Sorry, Caringheart, not trying to rude sister but what evidence is there that Muhammad got his poetry from the Psalms? The Arabic language is beautiful as is the Hebrew language used in the Psalms, but I think it's false to suggest that the Quran got its language from them. We have no evidence of that whatsoever.

The Quran contains many truths and it was written by someone who was very intelligent and meant well, and I believe who got some of his knowledge from the supernatural.

It also contains things that are not true, and it tells people to refer to the teachings of Muhammad, which are contained in the hadiths. The Quran claims that whoever obeys Muhammad has obeyed Allah, and that people must accept whatever he says to accept and reject whatever he says to reject.

The Quran teaches that when Muhammad spoke he did not speak from his own inclination but it was a revelation.

53:2-6

Your companion [Muhammad] has not strayed, nor has he erred,

Nor does he speak from [his own] inclination.

It is not but a revelation revealed,

Taught to him by one intense in strength -

One of soundness.

Some of the things which Muhammad said (which are recorded in the hadiths) are true and beautiful but also there are others that are demonstrably and clearly false. This is one of the many reasons I do not believe the Quran was directly given to him from God.

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Originally posted by TG12345 Alaikum...

Mon, 14 Jan 2013 18:00:50 +0000

Author: TG12345
Subject: 24611
Posted: 14 January 2013 at 6:00pm

Originally posted by TG12345

Alaikum Salaam. Jesus will definitely come again, and we will definitely face Judgement. Satan is indeed a liar and deceiver, and he is leading most of humanity to an eternal hell.

God did not set a seal in my heart against coming to Him, He does not do such things. My faith teaches that He loves humanity and those who want to come to Him He guides to Him. I hope and pray that He will guide you to Him before it is too late.

I have posted frequently in this forum, and have pointed out some obvious mistakes in your scriptures, mistakes that even a non-Christian would notice. I have so far not have had been presented with any evidence that makes up for the contradictions and errors in some of the things Muhammad said. This is only in reference to the hadiths, I haven't yet even started too much on the Quran.

I am involved in a long running debate with a Muslim on this forum and also post on a Christian forum (as well as having a life outside of the internet), so I am not posting as much as I could be.

If you want to present me with evidence you think exists for your faith being true and my faith being wrong, feel free to do so. So far your words and the words of other well-meaning Muslims have only helped convince me of the opposite.

Allah Akhbar. Blessed be the Name of the Lord.

Originally posted by Abu Loren

I'm sorry I can't help you any further buddy because each person is responsible for his own salvation and I cannot bear your sins nor you mine.

I agree with you that there are contradictions in the Hadiths as it was written down by men. What you tried to point out of the contradictions we have rebutted you on every point. There is no way a mere man living in the seventh century Arbia who could produce the Holy Qur'an without devine guidance.

I feel sorry for you that you can't see the truth that is contained therein. Ask God to help you and guide you to the Truth. If you ask Him sincerely may be He will open your eyes and stop your existence in this fantasy world.

Salaam Alaikum Abu Loren,

With all due respect, I did not come to look for help, I came to discuss and debate my faith and yours. I came to be a witness to the Gospel and to allow you and other Muslims witness Islam to me.

I am very open about my faith, and don't come here to pretend I am here to merely "learn", I am here to debate and discuss and witness and be witnessed to. In the process of this, there is learning involved on both our parts.

I am really not trying to be insulting to you, but you haven't provided rebuttals to my points.

1. You haven't managed to prove that Muhammad was right that 7 dates in the morning would cause that no toxins could harm a person.

2. You haven't managed to prove that there ever was the existence of a book called the Injil, a book that Christians allegedly believed in before they believed the Quran.

3. You haven't shown me a verse from the Quran that calls on adulterers to be stoned to death, even though Muhammad claimed he judged the shepherd's son and the woman who committed adultery with him on the basis of the Quran.

4. You haven't explained how is it possible that allegedly God told humanity that milk is pleasant for those who drink it, even though there are people with milk allergies who this pure drink literally kills. (refer to point made above to W.S.)

5. You haven't explained how it is possible that before Muhammad the prophets were all sent to their nation only, but simultaneously Moses, who we agree was an Israelite and not Egyptian, was sent to Pharaoh, who was an Egyptian. (refer to point above made by W.S.)

You agree that there are contradictions in the hadiths, and claim this is because they were written by men. The hadiths I refer to for the most part all come from Muslim and Bukhari.

Islamic scholars today say they are some of the most authentic ones.

By all indication, and until you manage to prove otherwise, they are an accurate record of the words of Muhammad.

Fatwa No : 6956

The judging of Hadeeths must conform to the rules and fundamentals of the science of Hadeeth

Fatwa Date : Rabee' Al-Awwal 15, 1433 / 8-2-2012

Question

I had a dispute with a friend over his claim that most Hadeeths are inauthentic since the narrators were not contemporaries of the Prophet . He also alleges that Jihaad is the sixth pillar of Islam, because the Quran speaks about it more than any other thing.
In addition, he believes that the emergence of different Islamic groups and the disagreements among scholars prove that almost all Hadeeths are distorted.

Please, explain to me the correct opinion. May Allaah reward you.

Answer

All perfect praise be to Allaah, The Lord of the Worlds. I testify that there is none worthy of worship except Allaah, and that Muhammad , is His Slave and Messenger.

Hadeeths of the Prophet , are of different grades, including: Saheeh (Authentic), Hasan (Sound), Dha�eef (weak) and Mawdhoo' (fabricated). The scholars of Hadeeth have studied and defined these different grades very well.
Muslims accept all that was narrated in Saheeh Al-Bukhaari and Saheeh Muslim and scholars consider that the Hadeeths narrated by both Al-Bukhaari and Muslim are the most authentic Hadeeths, then the Hadeeths narrated by Al-Bukhaari alone, then the Hadeeths narrated by Muslim alone.
The authenticity of the Hadeeths narrated in Saheeh Al-Bukhaari are unarguable, to the extent that Al-Haafith Abu Nasr As-Sijizi said that Islamic jurists and other scholars agreed that, if a man made an oath in the name of Allaah that all Hadeeths mentioned in Saheeh Al-Bukhaari were unarguably said by the Messenger of Allaah , then his oath is valid and does an not need expiation.
As for the allegation concerning Jihaad, it does not even deserve consideration. The five pillars of Islam are the most important acts of worship in Islam, as stated in a Hadeeth narrated by Al-Bukhaari and Muslim. However, this does not mean that duties and obligations are confined to these five pillars, but Jihaad, encouraging good and forbidding evil, and dutifulness to parents are all established Islamic obligations. Jihaad is the highest peak of Islam, as described in the Hadeeth narrated by At-Tirmithi and Ibn Maajah .
As for the claim that the majority of Hadeeths are fabricated, it is a groundless allegation since the vast majority of Hadeeths that are narrated in the well-known books of Hadeeth are authentic. These well-known books of Hadeeth include:
1-      Saheeh Al-Bukhaari
2-      Saheeh Muslim
3-      Sunan At-Tirmithi
4-      Sunan An-Nasaa'i
5-      Sunan Abu-Daawood
6-      Sunan Ibn Maajah
7-      Musnad of Imaam Ahmad
8-      Muwatta� of Imaam Maalik
9-      Saheeh Ibn Khuzaymah
10 - Saheeh Ibn Hibbaan
Moreover, the existence of deviated groups does not prove that the Hadeeths are distorted. On the contrary, attacking the Sunnah, rejecting and casting doubts upon it, and interpreting it in a way that contradicts its obvious meaning are the causes behind such a deviation.
Depending only on the Quran and rejecting most of the Sunnah is one of the opinions that formed the foundation of some deviated groups, such as the Jahmiyyah, the Mu�tazilah, the Qur�aaniyyoon and others.
We advise you to know that the science of Hadeeth has rules and basics and no one has the right to judge a Hadeeth as Saheeh or Dha�eef depending on mere imagination or doubts in the mind. Rather, the chain of narrators and the text of the Hadeeth or the tradition should be considered carefully in light of the rules and regulations set by the Islamic scholars throughout the centuries.
We also advise this person to be careful not to become an opponent of the Prophet , by rejecting his Sunnah. He should know that Allaah The Exalted has undertaken the responsibility of preserving His religion and His book (the Quran) and this would be impossible if not accompanied by the preservation of the Sunnah of His Messenger , which is a revelation like the Quran. Allaah The Almighty Says (what means):
� {Nor does he speak from [his own] inclination. It is not but a revelation revealed.} [Quran 53:3,4]
� {And We revealed to you the message that you may make clear to the people what was sent down to them.} [Quran 16:44]
Allaah Knows best.
http://www.islamweb.net/emainpage/index.php?page=showfatwa&Option=FatwaId&Id=6956

It is obvious that 7 dates in the AM will not protect a person against all toxins.

It is also evident that there is no verse in the Quran that commands adulterers to be stoned to death, and that when Muhammad had the woman stoned to death he was not passing this judgement based on the Quran but on what he must have believed God revealed to him outside of it.

It is also true that Muhammad was not correct when he said that before him all prophets were sent to their nation only... since as we both know Moses was an Israelite and Pharaoh an Egyptian... yet God sent Moses to the Pharaoh as well as his own people.

The allegation that there was a book given to Jesus and that Christians in the time of Muhammad believed in it before they believed in the Quran cannot be proven.

It is very obvious from the hadiths, that Muhammad said these things... and it is very obvious that on most if not all of these points, he was wrong.

Muhammad was a very intelligent person, and I believe he meant well in wanting to follow God. Unlike your abusive and insulting terminology you use to describe Paul, I do not call him a "devil" and I do not call him a "pedophile" or "terrorist" like some misguided and bigoted 'christians' do.

It is not for me to judge Muhammad, that is God's job. He will also judge you, and judge me, and everyone on and off this forum.

I have and I will always continue to ask God for guidance. I have prayed for His guidance as I began to read the Quran and study the hadiths. He has answered my prayers... and shown me the errors that are contained in it.

I am not the one who lives in a 'fantasy world', my friend.

I hope to continue this discussion with you, and I will be praying for you and all my other Muslim and non-Christian friends that you come to know Jesus Christ.

May God guide us all to Him.

Edited by TG12345 - 14 January 2013 at 6:23pm

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Originally posted by Abu...

Mon, 14 Jan 2013 13:30:14 +0000

Author: Caringheart
Subject: 24611
Posted: 14 January 2013 at 1:30pm

Originally posted by Abu Loren

There is no way a mere man living in the seventh century Arbia who could produce the Holy Qur'an without devine guidance.

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Originally posted by TG12345 Alaikum...

Mon, 14 Jan 2013 07:16:23 +0000

Author: Abu Loren
Subject: 24611
Posted: 14 January 2013 at 7:16am

Originally posted by TG12345

I'm sorry I can't help you any further buddy because each person is responsible for his own salvation and I cannot bear your sins nor you mine.

Edited by Abu Loren - 14 January 2013 at 7:16am

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Originally posted by TG12345I...

Mon, 14 Jan 2013 05:32:20 +0000

Author: TG12345
Subject: 24611
Posted: 14 January 2013 at 5:32am

Originally posted by TG12345

I am reading the Quran. I am not finished it yet completely. God has already shown me errors and mistakes in it that prove to me that it cannot be His word, since He does not make mistakes or errors. He has also led me to see some obvious mistakes in some of the hadiths that are authentic. The major mistake and error of course is Islam's denial of Jesus' nature and death and resurrection, but there are others that make it extremely clear that Islam cannot be of God.

Originally posted by W.S.

I'm asking out of curiosity: Besides the one you mention, what errors and mistakes in the Quran and the hadiths have you come across? Btw, I haven't yet read the entire Quran either.

Salaam Alaikum, W.S.,

I will post some links to some discussions I am having.

1.

One example of an error would be Muhammad sentencing someone to be stoned to death for adultery and claiming that he made this judgement according to Allah's Book (Laws) which is a reference to the Quran, while in the Quran there is no verse, to my knowledge, that prescribes stoning for adultery.

http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24595&PN=2

2.

Another example are Muhammad's statements that no toxin or magic can harm a person who has eaten 7 Ajwa dates first thing in the morning, and that those who eat them will not be harmed by any poison. While dates have some health benefits, it is not true that no toxin can harm someone who has had 7 of them in the AM. A bite from a rattlesnake or ingestion of botulism would harm, if not kill, anyone- regardless of what he or she ate in the morning.

http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24387&PN=4
http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24596

3.

Another example would be of Muhammad promising a reward for Christians who used to believe in an earlier book (Injil) and then believed in the Quran. To my knowledge, there is no historical evidence of a book like the Injil, which God allegedly revealed to Jesus, ever existing. To the best of my knowledge, there is also no historical evidence outside the Quran and hadiths, of Christians or other non-Muslims believing in the existence of such a text. Most Muslims I speak to claim that the Scriptures that Christians have are corrupted and the book revealed to Jesus is "lost", yet Muhammad promised a reward for Christians who used to believe in an earlier book, and then believed in the Quran. How could they have believed in something that was lost?

The Quran states itself that those who follow Muhammad, whom they will find written with them in the Torah and Injil will be successful... how could that be possible if the original books are not around anymore and all we have are corruptions?

Also, where in the Torah and Injil that Christians during Muhammad's time allegedly had, is there any mention of him?

7:157

Those who follow the Messenger-Prophet, the Ummi, whom they find written down with them in the Taurat and the Injeel (who) enjoins them good and forbids them evil, and makes lawful to them the good things and makes unlawful to them impure things, and removes from them their burden and the shackles which were upon them; so (as for) those who believe in him and honor him and help him, and follow the light which has been sent down with him, these it is that are the successful.

http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24591

4.

Muhammad stated that before him, every prophet was sent to his nation only, but he had been sent to all mankind.

(1) Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah: The Prophet said, "I have been given five things which were not given to any one else before me. 1. Allah made me victorious by awe, (by His frightening my enemies) for a distance of one month's journey. 2. The earth has been made for me (and for my followers) a place for praying and a thing to perform Tayammum, therefore anyone of my followers can pray wherever the time of a prayer is due. 3. The booty has been made Halal (lawful) for me yet it was not lawful for anyone else before me. 4. I have been given the right of intercession (on the Day of Resurrection). 5. Every Prophet used to be sent to his nation only but I have been sent to all mankind. (Book #7, Hadith #331)
http://www.searchtruth.com/searchHadith.php?keyword=%22nation+only%22&translator=1&search=1&book=&start=0&records_display=10&search_word=all

It is pretty clear that Moses was an Israelite, and Pharaoh an Egyptian. I even had Abu Loren confirm this in our discussion here:
http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24576

However, as you probably know, according to the Quran God sent Moses to the Pharaoh to warn him and invite him to follow God.

A.13 The Chapter of An-Nazi�at (The Snatchers) (79.15-25)

Has the story of Moses reached you (79.15)? When his Lord called him in the holy valley of Tuwa (79.16): �Go to Pharaoh; he has transgressed (79.17). Say to him: �Do you have the will to purify yourself (79.18) and to let me guide you to your Lord so that you become pious to Him�� (79.19)? He showed him the great sign (79.20) but he denied [it] and disobeyed (79.21). Then he went to plan (79.22) so he gathered and proclaimed (79.23), saying: �I am your Lord supreme� (79.24). So Allah seized him with the punishment of the hereafter and this world (79.25).

http://www.quranicstudies.com/prophet-moses/prophet-moses-in-the-quran/

Given that Moses was an Israelite and Pharaoh an Egyptian, Muhammad's statement that every prohet used to be sent to his nation only is not true.

5.

The Quran teaches that milk is pure and palatable to those who drink it. While milk is healthy and good for most people, it is very unpalable and can be deadly for others.

16:66

And indeed, for you in grazing livestock is a lesson. We give you drink from what is in their bellies - between excretion and blood - pure milk, palatable to drinkers.

http://quran.com/16/66

Milk allergies are rare, but there are quite a few people in the world who have them. A person with a milk allergy who would have a sip of this "palatable" drink, will start wheezing and vomiting, and may have anaphylaxis which can kill him or her.

http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/milk-allergy/DS01008

Of course, there was no way for a human being living in the 7th century to know about milk allergies. But God would. Would He tell humanity that milk is pleasant to its drinkers if some people get extremely sick and even die because of it?

It would either indicate that He was unaware of such conditions, or that He doesn't care about the occasional innocent and unsuspecting person dying because of drinking something He said is pleasant to those who ingest it. I don't believe that God is ignorant or malicious like that, do you?

I have other examples but because of time constraints will leave it here for now. Looking forward to hearing your thoughts.

Take care and God bless. May He guide us all to the Truth.

Edited by TG12345 - 14 January 2013 at 5:34am

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Originally posted by TG12345I...

Mon, 14 Jan 2013 03:49:34 +0000

Author: W.S.
Subject: 24611
Posted: 14 January 2013 at 3:49am

I'm asking out of curiosity: Besides the one you mention, what errors and mistakes in the Quran and the hadiths have you come across? Btw, I haven't yet read the entire Quran either.

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Originally posted by TG12345 Salaam...

Mon, 14 Jan 2013 03:46:11 +0000

Author: TG12345
Subject: 24611
Posted: 14 January 2013 at 3:46am

Originally posted by TG12345

Salaam Alaikum, Abu Loren. I do believe in the One True God. He is my Creator, He is my Saviour, and He will be my Judge. He reveals Himself to humanity as the Father, He came to the earth as Jesus Christ, and He lives in me as the Holy Spirit.

There has been a time in my life when my faith in Him was shaken, and I have prayed and asked God to reveal to me whether what Islam says about Him is real. I began to read the Quran and there were times when I doubted what the Bible has to say. I asked Him to show me if my faith in Him was misplaced.

I am reading the Quran. I am not finished it yet completely. God has already shown me errors and mistakes in it that prove to me that it cannot be His word, since He does not make mistakes or errors. He has also led me to see some obvious mistakes in some of the hadiths that are authentic. The major mistake and error of course is Islam's denial of Jesus' nature and death and resurrection, but there are others that make it extremely clear that Islam cannot be of God.

My stance on the Quran and hadiths is not based on what non-Muslims say, it is based on what is in the books, and sometimes also on the opinion of Muslim scholars.

Through this journey, God has also helped me understand the Bible better.

I pray for you that you abandon your misguided belief in the misrepresentation of God's word that is in the Quran and hadiths, and accept who God really is and what He has done for you. You only have this life to choose to follow Him or not. After you die, it will be too late.

Originally posted by Abu Loren

Wa Alaikkum

Alas in that case all I can say is that you do not have guidnace from above and He has set a seal in your heart.

Indeed we will both have to face our conequences on THE DAY as everybody else. To me, Jesus (Alayhi Salaam) could never be God, he is a mighty messenger and prophet of God who will come back soon Insha'Allah and will set the world aright.

I suppose there will always be two camps, one for and for against God, as was from the beginning. Unfortunately satan has done a great job of misguiding the majority of humanity who will abide in hell for eternity.

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Originally posted by TG12345 Salaam...

Mon, 14 Jan 2013 03:22:28 +0000

Author: Abu Loren
Subject: 24611
Posted: 14 January 2013 at 3:22am

Originally posted by TG12345

Wa Alaikkum

Alas in that case all I can say is that you do not have guidnace from above and He has set a seal in your heart.

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Originally posted by Abu Loren Originally...

Mon, 14 Jan 2013 03:12:06 +0000

Author: TG12345
Subject: 24611
Posted: 14 January 2013 at 3:12am

Originally posted by Abu Loren

Originally posted by TG12345

Originally posted by TG12345

If I was in a situation where my wife or family or friends were being threatened with torture or death and the only way I could save them was by renouncing my faith, I would not do it. It would be infinitely more painful and horrific for me to see them suffer than to see me suffer, but I would ask God to give me the courage to not renounce regardless of what happened.

Originally posted by nospam001

It's axiomatic that God will make just the right adjustment to each soul's compensation in the afterlife. So, in the end, everything works out the same, or at least equivalent.

Supposing you lied, and thereby ended the torture, there'd be less suffering all round but correspondingly less heavenly reward, yes?

It's not about heavenly reward or lack of it. It's about being faithful to God.

He would maybe forgive as He forgave Peter when he repented, but it is not up to me to take advantage of His grace and forgiveness. In a weak moment perhaps I would deny my faith... but I would pray that this did not happen.

Originally posted by nospam001

Given this perspective, a world fraught with war and injustice is no 'worse' than one without it. Heck, it may even be better!

It never ceases to amaze me how many people think that way.

Suicide vest, anyone?

What have you done to combat injustice and war in the world?
He would probably forgive as He forgave Peter when he repented, but it is not up to me to take advantage of His grace and forgiveness. In a weak moment perhaps I would deny my faith... but I would pray that this did not happen.

I would urge you to abandon your misguided belief in Jesus (Alayhi Salaam) and embrace the belief in the One True God. Forget what people say and read the Holy Qur'an for yourself and ask for guidance. Submitting to the One True God will be the happiest day of your life. Be part of the Final Covenent of God before it's too late.

Sahih International

And fear a Day when no soul will suffice for another soul at all, nor will intercession be accepted from it, nor will compensation be taken from it, nor will they be aided. 2:48

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Originally posted by TG12345 Originally...

Sun, 13 Jan 2013 23:44:46 +0000

Author: Abu Loren
Subject: 24611
Posted: 13 January 2013 at 11:44pm

Originally posted by TG12345

Supposing you lied, and thereby ended the torture, there'd be less suffering all round but correspondingly less heavenly reward, yes?

It's not about heavenly reward or lack of it. It's about being faithful to God.

Originally posted by nospam001

Given this perspective, a world fraught with war and injustice is no 'worse' than one without it. Heck, it may even be better!

It never ceases to amaze me how many people think that way.

Suicide vest, anyone?

Sahih International

And fear a Day when no soul will suffice for another soul at all, nor will intercession be accepted from it, nor will compensation be taken from it, nor will they be aided. 2:48

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Originally posted by nospam001 Originally...

Sun, 13 Jan 2013 23:40:49 +0000

Author: Abu Loren
Subject: 24611
Posted: 13 January 2013 at 11:40pm

Originally posted by nospam001

It's axiomatic that God will make just the right adjustment to each soul's compensation in the afterlife. So, in the end, everything works out the same, or at least equivalent.

Supposing you lied, and thereby ended the torture, there'd be less suffering all round but correspondingly less heavenly reward, yes?

Given this perspective, a world fraught with war and injustice is no 'worse' than one without it. Heck, it may even be better!

It never ceases to amaze me how many people think that way.

Suicide vest, anyone?

This is why faith in God is not for you Mr. Agnostic, you are the kind of person, perhaps, pick and choose from the religion to suit whatever YOU feel is right. You would abandon God's Law and replace it with your own.

It's answers like these that makes us realise how different people have varying levels of understanding.

On a side note, you've been married to a Muslimah for sixteen years and you STILL do not know her religion? Shame.

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Originally posted by TG12345If...

Sun, 13 Jan 2013 22:15:13 +0000

Author: TG12345
Subject: 24611
Posted: 13 January 2013 at 10:15pm

Supposing you lied, and thereby ended the torture, there'd be less suffering all round but correspondingly less heavenly reward, yes?

It's not about heavenly reward or lack of it. It's about being faithful to God.

Originally posted by nospam001

Given this perspective, a world fraught with war and injustice is no 'worse' than one without it. Heck, it may even be better!

It never ceases to amaze me how many people think that way.

Suicide vest, anyone?

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Originally posted by TG12345 Hi...

Sun, 13 Jan 2013 22:11:36 +0000

Author: TG12345
Subject: 24611
Posted: 13 January 2013 at 10:11pm

Originally posted by TG12345

Hi nospam001,

I have to say that I can understand Abu Loren here. If God gives you a command, you follow it.

I agree with Abu Loren that it is all or nothing.

Originally posted by Caringheart

You would cut off your own child's hand?
You would think that could possibly be a command of God?

No, I do not believe that God wants us to cut off anyone's hands.

However, at a certain point in history He commanded that disobedient children be stoned to death. An Israelite who did that during the times of Deuteronomy would have been following God's commands at that time. He would have found it extremely difficult and traumatic, but he would have done so because this is what God desired then.

God at the present does not allow us to stone people to death or harm them, because vengeance is His to take and we are ordered not to judge and condemn or we will be judged and condemned ourselves.

This is what Christ revealed. People in the OT times did not have that yet. If I was Abu Loren during that time and God's law said I would have to stone my son, I would have done it. Because it is what God wants.

I do not believe in cutting off people's hands, however I agree with Abu Loren that we should follow God's laws even if the rest of the world disagrees.

Originally posted by Caringheart

I think that is the point nospam was making.
I think he is asking Abu would he do this to his own child, or seek another way?

Let's move the discussion from hand removal to something the Bible commands. If you had a choice between denying Jesus and losing your child, what would you do?

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Originally posted by TG12345If...

Sun, 13 Jan 2013 22:00:56 +0000

Author: nospam001
Subject: 24611
Posted: 13 January 2013 at 10:00pm

It's axiomatic that God will make just the right adjustment to each soul's compensation in the afterlife. So, in the end, everything works out the same, or at least equivalent.

Supposing you lied, and thereby ended the torture, there'd be less suffering all round but correspondingly less heavenly reward, yes?

Given this perspective, a world fraught with war and injustice is no 'worse' than one without it. Heck, it may even be better!

It never ceases to amaze me how many people think that way.

Suicide vest, anyone?

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Originally posted by TG12345 Hi...

Sun, 13 Jan 2013 21:22:42 +0000

Author: Caringheart
Subject: 24611
Posted: 13 January 2013 at 9:22pm

Originally posted by TG12345

Hi nospam001,

I have to say that I can understand Abu Loren here. If God gives you a command, you follow it.

I agree with Abu Loren that it is all or nothing.

You would cut off your own child's hand?
You would think that could possibly be a command of God?

I think that is the point nospam was making.
I think he is asking Abu would he do this to his own child, or seek another way?

Edited by Caringheart - 13 January 2013 at 9:24pm

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Originally posted by Abu...

Sun, 13 Jan 2013 20:54:16 +0000

Author: TG12345
Subject: 24611
Posted: 13 January 2013 at 8:54pm

Originally posted by Abu Loren

From the Hadiths it is clear that the judgement is for all time.

Abu Loren

Originally posted by nospam001

Are you simply presenting the 'official' facts here, out of a sense of public duty, or is it something you actually agree with in your heart?

Suppose your own child's neck were on the chopping block? And what if the sword were in your hands? Would that make a difference?

Originally posted by Abu Loren

Very good questions Mr. Agnostic,

Prophet Muhammad (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) was willing to cut off his own daughter's hands if she would sin by stealing. These commands are from God and one must follow through with them.

In my own situation, however I wouldn't have even contemplated it a couple of years ago but today as a Muslim I must carry that through. We cannot pick and choose what we want from the religion, it's all or nothing. So I would have to say that if my married daughter was caught in the act of adultery then yes she must be punished according to God's Laws.

'A'isha reported that the Quraish had been anxious about the Makhzumi woman who had committed theft, and said:

Who will speak to Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) about her? They said: Who dare it, but Usama, the loved one of Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him)? So Usama spoke to him. Thereupon Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: Do you intercede regarding one of the punishments prescribed by Allah? He then stood up and addressed (people) saying: O people, those who have gone before you were destroyed, because if any one of high rank committed theft amongst them, they spared him; and it anyone of low rank committed theft, they inflicted the prescribed punishment upon him. By Allah, if Fatima, daughter of Muhammad, were to steal, I would have her hand cut off. In the hadith transmitted on the authority of Ibn Rumh (the words are):" Verily those before you perished."

Hi nospam001,

I have to say that I can understand Abu Loren here. If God gives you a command, you follow it.

I obviously do not believe that God wants people to kill those who leave the faith. This is not what Christianity teaches. Abu Loren and Nausheen believe this is what Islam teaches, other Muslims feel differently. It is between them to figure out what Islam teaches on the matter.

However, Christianity does teach things that many non-Christians would strongly disagree with... and that even many Christians who are mellow in their belief try to ignore.

Our faith that we should not renounce Jesus, no matter what. If I was in a situation where my wife or family or friends were being threatened with torture or death and the only way I could save them was by renouncing my faith, I would not do it. It would be infinitely more painful and horrific for me to see them suffer than to see me suffer, but I would ask God to give me the courage to not renounce regardless of what happened. My wife feels the same way.

Jesus also said to love one's enemies and to turn the other cheek. When I was in the West Bank, I did not try to fight back or run from the settlers in black ski masks who beat me with a metal pipe. I would put my body between whoever was trying to hurt someone I love and they would have to kill me before killing them, but I would not fight.

Some would probably see this as sick or fanatical or extremist. I see it as following God, and if the world has a problem with that, that is a problem of the world and not mine. I care more about pleasing God than pleasing the world. The world didn't die on the cross for my salvation. Jesus did.

I agree with Abu Loren that it is all or nothing.

Edited by TG12345 - 13 January 2013 at 8:56pm

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Originally posted by Abu LorenIn...

Sun, 13 Jan 2013 20:47:45 +0000

Author: nospam001
Subject: 24611
Posted: 13 January 2013 at 8:47pm

Originally posted by Abu Loren

In my own situation, however I wouldn't have even contemplated it a couple of years ago but today as a Muslim I must carry that through. We cannot pick and choose what we want from the religion, it's all or nothing. So I would have to say that if my married daughter was caught in the act of adultery then yes she must be punished according to God's Laws.

By "must" do you simply mean "otherwise I will be punished", or is there something else (as well) that makes killing your own daughter the only possible option?

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Originally posted by nospam001 Originally...

Sun, 13 Jan 2013 18:50:58 +0000

Author: Abu Loren
Subject: 24611
Posted: 13 January 2013 at 6:50pm

Originally posted by nospam001

Originally posted by Abu Loren

From the Hadiths it is clear that the judgement is for all time.

Abu Loren

Are you simply presenting the 'official' facts here, out of a sense of public duty, or is it something you actually agree with in your heart?

Suppose your own child's neck were on the chopping block? And what if the sword were in your hands? Would that make a difference?

Very good questions Mr. Agnostic,

Prophet Muhammad (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) was willing to cut off his own daughter's hands if she would sin by stealing. These commands are from God and one must follow through with them.

'A'isha reported that the Quraish had been anxious about the Makhzumi woman who had committed theft, and said:

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Originally posted by Abu LorenFrom...

Sun, 13 Jan 2013 17:39:31 +0000

Author: nospam001
Subject: 24611
Posted: 13 January 2013 at 5:39pm

Originally posted by Abu Loren

From the Hadiths it is clear that the judgement is for all time.

Abu Loren

Are you simply presenting the 'official' facts here, out of a sense of public duty, or is it something you actually agree with in your heart?

Suppose your own child's neck were on the chopping block? And what if the sword were in your hands? Would that make a difference?

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Originally posted by CaringheartAt...

Sun, 13 Jan 2013 14:56:31 +0000

Author: TG12345
Subject: 24611
Posted: 13 January 2013 at 2:56pm

Originally posted by Caringheart

At least you two have made me laugh...
sheik, pope, and caliph

Glad to hear that some good came out of our conversation LOL.

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : At least you two have made me...

Sun, 13 Jan 2013 13:23:32 +0000

Author: Caringheart
Subject: 24611
Posted: 13 January 2013 at 1:23pm

At least you two have made me laugh...
sheik, pope, and caliph

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Abu,What you don't seem to...

Sun, 13 Jan 2013 13:22:05 +0000

Author: Caringheart
Subject: 24611
Posted: 13 January 2013 at 1:22pm

Abu,

What you don't seem to understand is that when other people are asked questions they do research on their own and then share what they have found. That is all that TG was doing.

Salaam,
CH

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Originally posted by Abu Loren Originally...

Sun, 13 Jan 2013 11:50:03 +0000

Author: TG12345
Subject: 24611
Posted: 13 January 2013 at 11:50am

Originally posted by Abu Loren

Originally posted by TG12345

Dear Pope Abu Loren,

In case you didn't notice, I said when I signed up on Islamicity that I was here to discuss Islam and Christianity and to share my faith with Muslims and have you share your faith with me.

I am reading the Quran (Yusuf Ali translation) and the hadith websites allow me to read through the hadiths when I want to check something out.

You like to preach your misunderstanding of Christianity to Christians and try to convince us Paul was changing God's law. So don't be a hypocrite.

I am not arguing that Islam doesn't order apostates to be executed, I'm arguing that if it does I believe it contradicts the passage about there being no compulsion in Islam and it indicates a weakness in your faith. I also said that there are some Muslims who do not believe that apostates should be killed after the time of Muhammad. Nausheen asked for proof of that. So I showed her some links to MUSLIM sites.

Finally, dear Guardian of the Vatican and throne warmer O most guided infallible (in thy view and according to the view of some of thy followers) Pope Abu Loren, I have no intention of getting lost.

Actually, I once was lost but then put my faith in Jesus Christ, and now I am found. Hopefully one day you will find God too.

Dear Caliph TG12345

I had to have a quiet laugh when you said you've found God in Messiah Jesus (Alayhi Slaam). Why aren't you uncomfortable in worshipping a man like you and me? By doing so you are saying that Jesus (Alayhi Salaam) failed in his message that he brought to the world.

By the way that devil Paul did change God's Laws. See the thread 'CHRISTIANS - Answer this question'.

Dear Reverend Pat "Abu Loren" Robertson,

I'm glad you had a quiet laugh, laughter is a healthy thing actually.

If Jesus was a man like you or me or Muhammad, I wouldn't worship Him. However, unlike you or I or Muhammad, Jesus was Allah in the flesh.

You calling Paul a "devil" puts you on the same intellectual and moral level of those who call Muhammad a "terrorist" or a "pedophile". You have joined their club.

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Originally posted by TG12345 Dear...

Sun, 13 Jan 2013 08:38:09 +0000

Author: Abu Loren
Subject: 24611
Posted: 13 January 2013 at 8:38am

Dear Caliph TG12345

By the way that devil Paul did change God's Laws. See the thread 'CHRISTIANS - Answer this question'.

Edited by Abu Loren - 13 January 2013 at 8:38am

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Originally posted by Abu...

Sun, 13 Jan 2013 06:58:40 +0000

Author: TG12345
Subject: 24611
Posted: 13 January 2013 at 6:58am

Originally posted by Abu Loren

Originally posted by TG12345

Originally posted by Nausheen

Salaam Alaikum Nausheen,Thank you for being so honest and open about your faith. I have spoken to other Muslims who have argued the death penalty for apostacy applied only during the time of Muhammad, I wasn't aware of Muslims (outside of countries like Afghanistan etc) who believe it should still be applied.

Originally posted by Nausheen

Walaikum assalam TG. I did not speak of myself when I said the punishemnt is a death penalty, rather how the sharia sees it.

Do you have references from those who said this was implemented only in the time of the prophet pbuh?

Peace be upon you as well, Nausheen. A Muslim friend of mine who I will not name because I have not obtained his permission does not believe it is applicable today.

Here is an article written by a Muslim who states that the death penalty for apostasy is against the teachings of the Quran. He does not state that the death penalty for apostasy applied only during the time of Muhammad, but rather, the only apostates who were to be executed were those who were fighting Muslims. According to the author, those apostates who kept on friendly terms with Muslims and those who were neutral towards them were to be left alone.

http://www.islamicperspectives.com/Apostasy1.htm

HE DEATH PENALTY FOR APOSTASY CONFLICTS WITH THEQUR`AN

The evidence against any legally prescribed penaltyfor apostasy in Islam does not rest only on the fact that the Qur`an does notprescribe any such penalty while referring to the subject of apostasy manytimes. We can go further and state that:

a) Thereis no mandatory death penalty in the Qur`an for any crime.

b) The death penalty for apostasy in fact conflictswith the Qur`an.

The truth of the above statements can be seen byexamining the verses: 5:32-33, 45, 2:178 and 4:88-91.

Qur`an 5:32-33, 45, 2:178

In 5:32,after relating the story of the murder of Habil by his brother Qabil, God says:

On that account We ordained for the Children ofIsrael that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreadingmischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole humanity: and if anyone saved a life, it would be as if he saved the whole humanity. Then althoughthere came to them Our Messengers with clear (guidance), yet, even after that,many of them continued to commit excesses in the land. (5:32)

In the context of an emphasis on preserving thelife of each and every individual the above verse mentions only two crimes forwhich a person can be killed:

1) Murderinganother human being;

2) Spreadingmischief (fasad) in the land.

...

At first sight the words �seize them and kill themwherever you find them� would suggest that they are to be killed. But this isquickly seen to be wrong if we read the next two verses:

Except those who join a group between you and whomthere is a (peace-) treaty or those who approach you with their heartsrestraining them from fighting you or fighting their own people. Had God willed he would have given thempower over you and they would have fought you. So if they withdraw from you and do not fight you but give you (guaranteesof) peace, then God has opened no way for you against them.

You will find others that wish to gain your confidence as well as that oftheir people. Every time they are sent back to temptation they give in to it.If they do not withdraw from you nor give you (guarantees) of peace, norrestrain their hands, seize them and kill them, wherever you find them. Intheir case We have provided you with a clear warrant against them. (4:90-91).

Theseverses clarify the command �seize them and kill them�. The apostates whorejected Islam by failing to emigrate as commanded by God are divided intothree categories:

1) Those who ally themselves with agroup with whom Muslims have a peace treaty;

2) Those who want to keep neutrality,committing themselves to peace with both the Muslims and their own people whohad not accepted Islam;

3) Those who provide no real guaranteeof peace to Muslims and by all indications ally themselves with non-believers engagedin hostilities towards Islam.

Thefirst two types of apostates are to be left in peace while the third one is tobe treated like any non-believers in a state of war: they are to be seized andkilled wherever they are found. Notice that the Qur`an uses the words �God has opened no way for you against them�in connection with the apostates of the first two types. This means that theQur`an actually prohibits killing those apostates who want to live in peacefulterms with the Muslims.

The anti-Christian website "answering Christianity"- which I actually have a very low opinion of because of its highly insulting content- also challenges this belief. The authors state that apostates were killed during the time of Muhammad only because they were joining forces that were militarily fighting Muslims.

4- The Sayings ofProphet Muhammad, peace be upon him, regarding killing the renegades came when Islam waspartial and the Muslims were dealing with wars all the time. As I said above, if theperson wasn't with the Muslims, then he was certainly with his people, the pagans and theother non-Muslims, and he would've then had to join the evil forces to fight theMuslims. So the case back then was different than today.

http://www.answering-christianity.com/apostates.htm

Originally posted by Nausheen

Why do you think Afghanistan can implement sharia rulings - its not an islamic state, fully, rather they are having democracy - am not sure of the exact politics there.

You just admitted that Afghanistan is not an Islamic state. Some would argue that its puppet rulers who are helping maintain a US and NATO occupation are the opposite of what an Islamic government would be. The high corruption also makes me question how Islamic the government there is.

Is it possible that Afghanistan's implementation of the death penalty for apostasy (or effort to, since the Christian convert was allowed to flee) is based on a misunderstanding of Islam?

Originally posted by TG12345

I have to say, with all due respect, that this is one of the reasons I would never become Muslim. I don't think that a religion that is truly of no compulsion would punish people for leaving. I also think it is a form of weakness to punish people for no longer believing what you believe, and points to an inability to convince them to come back to what you believe is true, and a fear that others will also fall away.

Originally posted by Nausheen

You are right.

Sorry, what did you say I was right about? That killing apostates is contradictory to the claim there is no compulsion in Islam? That it is a form of weakness to punish people for leaving one's faith? That it is based on an inability to convince people to return and a fear that others will also leave?

Originally posted by Nausheen

I dont understand why the death penalty. Although the people who do not declare themselves as apostates are to be given the benefit of doubt. A person who declares publicly,should be counseled, sent out of the state, and given time to reconsider etc, etc ... there is a whole protocol, I dont remember exactly, but do know that its not a simple matter to be judged or even sentenced.

I understand, but why is there the need to sentence or judge them at all? Why can't you leave that to God?

Two friends of mine over the past few years left Christianity. It was a very sad thing for me (FYI they became atheists, not Muslims). I feel sad that they have rejected God, however I still keep on good terms with them and witness to them, and pray for them.

I would never ever even think of harming them, and would die rather than allow someone to harm them.

Well Sheikh TG12345 now we know why you are here on this forum. You probably have never read the translation of the Holy Qur'an nor the Hadiths yet you want to preach Islam to Muslims. That's rich. If that is indeed your intention then you can get lost.

Dear Pope Abu Loren,

In case you didn't notice, I said when I signed up on Islamicity that I was here to discuss Islam and Christianity and to share my faith with Muslims and have you share your faith with me.

I am reading the Quran (Yusuf Ali translation) and the hadith websites allow me to read through the hadiths when I want to check something out.

You like to preach your misunderstanding of Christianity to Christians and try to convince us Paul was changing God's law. So don't be a hypocrite.

I am not arguing that Islam doesn't order apostates to be executed, I'm arguing that if it does I believe it contradicts the passage about there being no compulsion in Islam and it indicates a weakness in your faith. I also said that there are some Muslims who do not believe that apostates should be killed after the time of Muhammad. Nausheen asked for proof of that. So I showed her some links to MUSLIM sites.

Finally, dear Guardian of the Vatican and throne warmer O most guided infallible (in thy view and according to the view of some of thy followers) Pope Abu Loren, I have no intention of getting lost.

Actually, I once was lost but then put my faith in Jesus Christ, and now I am found. Hopefully one day you will find God too.

Edited by TG12345 - 13 January 2013 at 7:07am

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Originally posted by TG12345 Originally...

Sun, 13 Jan 2013 01:33:34 +0000

Author: Abu Loren
Subject: 24611
Posted: 13 January 2013 at 1:33am

Originally posted by TG12345

a) Thereis no mandatory death penalty in the Qur`an for any crime.

b) The death penalty for apostasy in fact conflictswith the Qur`an.

The truth of the above statements can be seen byexamining the verses: 5:32-33, 45, 2:178 and 4:88-91.

Qur`an 5:32-33, 45, 2:178

In 5:32,after relating the story of the murder of Habil by his brother Qabil, God says:

On that account We ordained for the Children ofIsrael that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreadingmischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole humanity: and if anyone saved a life, it would be as if he saved the whole humanity. Then althoughthere came to them Our Messengers with clear (guidance), yet, even after that,many of them continued to commit excesses in the land. (5:32)

In the context of an emphasis on preserving thelife of each and every individual the above verse mentions only two crimes forwhich a person can be killed:

1) Murderinganother human being;

2) Spreadingmischief (fasad) in the land.

...

At first sight the words �seize them and kill themwherever you find them� would suggest that they are to be killed. But this isquickly seen to be wrong if we read the next two verses:

Except those who join a group between you and whomthere is a (peace-) treaty or those who approach you with their heartsrestraining them from fighting you or fighting their own people. Had God willed he would have given thempower over you and they would have fought you. So if they withdraw from you and do not fight you but give you (guaranteesof) peace, then God has opened no way for you against them.

You will find others that wish to gain your confidence as well as that oftheir people. Every time they are sent back to temptation they give in to it.If they do not withdraw from you nor give you (guarantees) of peace, norrestrain their hands, seize them and kill them, wherever you find them. Intheir case We have provided you with a clear warrant against them. (4:90-91).

Theseverses clarify the command �seize them and kill them�. The apostates whorejected Islam by failing to emigrate as commanded by God are divided intothree categories:

1) Those who ally themselves with agroup with whom Muslims have a peace treaty;

2) Those who want to keep neutrality,committing themselves to peace with both the Muslims and their own people whohad not accepted Islam;

3) Those who provide no real guaranteeof peace to Muslims and by all indications ally themselves with non-believers engagedin hostilities towards Islam.

http://www.answering-christianity.com/apostates.htm

Originally posted by Nausheen

You are right.

I understand, but why is there the need to sentence or judge them at all? Why can't you leave that to God?

Two friends of mine over the past few years left Christianity. It was a very sad thing for me (FYI they became atheists, not Muslims). I feel sad that they have rejected God, however I still keep on good terms with them and witness to them, and pray for them.

I would never ever even think of harming them, and would die rather than allow someone to harm them.

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Originally posted by...

Sat, 12 Jan 2013 12:57:32 +0000

Author: TG12345
Subject: 24611
Posted: 12 January 2013 at 12:57pm

a) Thereis no mandatory death penalty in the Qur`an for any crime.

b) The death penalty for apostasy in fact conflictswith the Qur`an.

The truth of the above statements can be seen byexamining the verses: 5:32-33, 45, 2:178 and 4:88-91.

Qur`an 5:32-33, 45, 2:178

In 5:32,after relating the story of the murder of Habil by his brother Qabil, God says:

On that account We ordained for the Children ofIsrael that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreadingmischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole humanity: and if anyone saved a life, it would be as if he saved the whole humanity. Then althoughthere came to them Our Messengers with clear (guidance), yet, even after that,many of them continued to commit excesses in the land. (5:32)

In the context of an emphasis on preserving thelife of each and every individual the above verse mentions only two crimes forwhich a person can be killed:

1) Murderinganother human being;

2) Spreadingmischief (fasad) in the land.

...

At first sight the words �seize them and kill themwherever you find them� would suggest that they are to be killed. But this isquickly seen to be wrong if we read the next two verses:

Except those who join a group between you and whomthere is a (peace-) treaty or those who approach you with their heartsrestraining them from fighting you or fighting their own people. Had God willed he would have given thempower over you and they would have fought you. So if they withdraw from you and do not fight you but give you (guaranteesof) peace, then God has opened no way for you against them.

You will find others that wish to gain your confidence as well as that oftheir people. Every time they are sent back to temptation they give in to it.If they do not withdraw from you nor give you (guarantees) of peace, norrestrain their hands, seize them and kill them, wherever you find them. Intheir case We have provided you with a clear warrant against them. (4:90-91).

Theseverses clarify the command �seize them and kill them�. The apostates whorejected Islam by failing to emigrate as commanded by God are divided intothree categories:

1) Those who ally themselves with agroup with whom Muslims have a peace treaty;

2) Those who want to keep neutrality,committing themselves to peace with both the Muslims and their own people whohad not accepted Islam;

3) Those who provide no real guaranteeof peace to Muslims and by all indications ally themselves with non-believers engagedin hostilities towards Islam.

http://www.answering-christianity.com/apostates.htm

Originally posted by Nausheen

You are right.

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Originally posted by Abu...

Sat, 12 Jan 2013 11:14:40 +0000

Author: Caringheart
Subject: 24611
Posted: 12 January 2013 at 11:14am

Originally posted by Abu Loren

Muhsin Khan

They wish that youreject Faith, as they have rejected (Faith), and thus that you all become equal(like one another). So take not Auliya' (protectors or friends) from them, tillthey emigrate in the Way of Allah (to Muhammad SAW). But if they turn back(from Islam), take (hold) of them and kill them wherever you find them, andtake neither Auliya' (protectors or friends) nor helpers from them. 4:89

From the Hadiths it is clear that the judgement is for all time. The reason, I think, is because an apostate will sow discord amongst the believers and people will not be committed to their faith. Of course there are apostates in Islam, it's just that they don't go around publishing that fact.

Right... fear that the religion can not stand on its own... much like what TG has stated in his views.

and thus the other concern, the "desire to �improve� the image of Islam among non-Muslims." That there are those being misled into joining Islam by glossing over, instead of presenting the unvarnished truth, and once joined not free to leave.
If you join something under false pretenses should you then be held to it? and yet you are. When you discover this truth which you did not know beforehand, it is too late for you.
Because Islam must build its power by locking people into it.
Surah 4 is from the Medinian period.

I think truth should be made very clear and known... all truth.
Surah 4:89 basically says not only can you kill any person who does not believe in Islam, but you have an obligation to if you consider yourself part of the faith of Islam, thus abrogating the "no compulsion in religion" which came from the earlier Meccan period when Muhammad thought people would hear his word and willingly join with him.
So who is being misled, who is being deceived into thinking that they serve God? Does it serve the Creator for His creation to be killing one another? to take away all chance of redemption for those who are lost? Did Jesus not come to seek and save the lost? to bring all to repentance? Did not the Creator want to save His creation? or does He want to throw them all into hell fire?

Salaam,
Caringheart

Again, this is not a statement against muslims, just the religion. I believe there are many wonderful muslim people who truly wish to be honoring to God.

Edited by Caringheart - 12 January 2013 at 11:25am

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Originally posted by NausheenYou...

Sat, 12 Jan 2013 09:17:28 +0000

Author: Abu Loren
Subject: 24611
Posted: 12 January 2013 at 9:17am

Originally posted by Nausheen

You are right. I dont understand why the death penalty. Although the people who do not declare themselves as apostates are to be given the benefit of doubt. A person who declares publicly,should be counseled, sent out of the state, and given time to reconsider etc, etc ... there is a whole protocol, I dont remember exactly, but do know that its not a simple matter to be judged or even sentenced.

Narrated `Abdullah:

Allah's Messenger ( )said, "The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to beworshipped but Allah and that I am His Apostle, cannot be shed except in threecases: In Qisas for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexualintercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (apostate) and leaves theMuslims."

Reference	: Sahih al-Bukhari 6878
In-book reference	: Book 87, Hadith 17

Mu�adh bin Jabal (RAA) narrated - concerning a manwho embraced Islam and then turned to Judaism (i.e. apostated), �I shall notsit down until he is killed. That is the Command of Allah and His Messenger,and he gave an order that he must be killed and so he was.� Agreed upon. In aversion by Abu Dawud, �He was given a chance to repent and retrun to Islam buthe refused.�

Muhsin Khan

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Originally posted by TG12345 Salaam...

Sat, 12 Jan 2013 07:34:47 +0000

Author: Nausheen
Subject: 24611
Posted: 12 January 2013 at 7:34am

Originally posted by TG12345

Salaam Alaikum Nausheen,Thank you for being so honest and open about your faith. I have spoken to other Muslims who have argued the death penalty for apostacy applied only during the time of Muhammad, I wasn't aware of Muslims (outside of countries like Afghanistan etc) who believe it should still be applied.

Walaikum assalam TG. I did not speak of myself when I said the punishemnt is a death penalty, rather how the sharia sees it.

Do you have references from those who said this was implemented only in the time of the prophet pbuh?
Why do you think Afghanistan can implement sharia rulings - its not an islamic state, fully, rather they are having democracy - am not sure of the exact politics there.

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Originally posted by W.S. I...

Sat, 12 Jan 2013 07:18:40 +0000

Author: Nausheen
Subject: 24611
Posted: 12 January 2013 at 7:18am

Originally posted by W.S.

I think I do understand the meaning of salat. But there are too many things that I don't heartily�believe in, even if I want to, and I won't fake it. This does not mean, however, that I see myself as having left Islam, or that I see myself as a case forever lost.

Would you care to discuss any of your fears with us.

In a frank setting, where we do not know or judge you personally, but may be we can help you a bit.

Nobody is forcing anything on you. Just for you to make better sense of things, would you like to give it a try.

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Greetings again Nausheen,"Punishment...

Fri, 11 Jan 2013 19:16:35 +0000

Author: Caringheart
Subject: 24611
Posted: 11 January 2013 at 7:16pm

Greetings again Nausheen,

"Punishment of apostacy is indeed a death sentence. "

Have you ever thought about, wondered, or considered, "Why"?
.
.
.
. take more than just a few minutes to consider that...
.
.
.
.

People like to say that Islam is a religion of logic and reason.
What is the logic and reason for killing people who exercise the free will given to them by the Creator Himself?
Islam is supposed to be against oppression.
Isn't this oppression?

So what place does this idea have in God's plan? How did it get into the scriptures? (Is it in the scriptures or just in the Hadiths?) Does this really come from the Creator? (Whether it does or does not, Islam holds you to it.)

If God is saying that you are condemning yourself to an eternity in hell... to death eternal, rather than life eternal, that is logical. That God is saying humans shall take away your life for Me, and take away all chance of redemption, that is not logical or reasonable.
So the thing is, with the scriptures, is that they can hold you to something God never intended. They can be a deception to lead you into your own damnation.

I think TG makes a good statement.

I am not speaking against muslims, in fact I have both respect and concern for them, and all people.

Salaam,
Caringheart

Edited by Caringheart - 11 January 2013 at 7:24pm

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Originally posted by Abu LorenWell...

Fri, 11 Jan 2013 13:32:54 +0000

Author: W.S.
Subject: 24611
Posted: 11 January 2013 at 1:32pm

Originally posted by Abu Loren

Well WS it looks like you didn't have guidance from above when you became a Muslim and probably you became a Muslims for the wrong reasons.

Perhaps it is so.

Originally posted by Abu Loren

Do you feel anything when you read the translation of the Holy Qur'an?

Not so much anymore.

Originally posted by Abu Loren

Are you moved when you listen to an Arabic recitation of the Holy Qur'an?

I haven't really been listening to an Arabic recitation of the Quran, but I guess that in combination with something else that is fascinating, the sound of someone reciting the Quran in Arabic can have a certain effect. Like, if you see a big, beautiful mosque or a community in a Muslim country on TV, and you hear a recitation in the background. I walked passed the door of the home a Muslim family not so long ago, and you could hear that they were listening to a recitation, and I remember kind of wishing that that attractive wife in there was my wife, and that those kids in there were my kids.

Originally posted by Abu Loren

If you find salat cumbersome then you don't understand Islam. Sorry to be blunt but there's no other way around it.

I think I do understand the meaning of salat. But there are too many things that I don't heartily believe in, even if I want to, and I won't fake it. This does not mean, however, that I see myself as having left Islam, or that I see myself as a case forever lost.

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Originally posted by W.S. Originally...

Fri, 11 Jan 2013 11:01:24 +0000

Author: Abu Loren
Subject: 24611
Posted: 11 January 2013 at 11:01am

Originally posted by W.S.

Originally posted by Abu Loren

You want to believe that there is only One God, that all the Prophets and Messengers (peace be upon them all) of God were sent to warn people who were astray. Jesus (Alayhi Salaam) is the Messiah and a mighty Prophet of God. He is fully human like you and me, therefore worshipping him like a god is wrong. God has always been outside of his creation.

Yes, but just in case you weren't aware: people become Muslim for various reasons.

Originally posted by Abu Loren

You find out the truth for yourself, yet there still remains a nagging doubt.

You may start to believe in something, but finding out the truth?

Originally posted by Abu Loren

Satan will work overtime to put doubts in your mind.

Or maybe you realize, for instance, that you and I and all animals and plants on this planet wouldn't be here if it weren't for evolution.

Originally posted by Abu Loren

The closer you are to God, the more fulfilling your life is

And how do you get there? By performing the salat? I did that for two months and the longer I'd done it, the more mechanical and meaningless it felt. Plus, I could barely walk normally during this period.

Well WS it looks like you didn't have guidance from above when you became a Muslim and probably you became a Muslims for the wrong reasons. Do you feel anything when you read the translation of the Holy Qur'an? Are you moved when you listen to an Arabic recitation of the Holy Qur'an? If you find salat cumbersome then you don't understand Islam. Sorry to be blunt but there's no other way around it.

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Originally posted by Abu...

Fri, 11 Jan 2013 10:53:49 +0000

Author: W.S.
Subject: 24611
Posted: 11 January 2013 at 10:53am

Yes, but just in case you weren't aware: people become Muslim for various reasons.

Originally posted by Abu Loren

You find out the truth for yourself, yet there still remains a nagging doubt.

You may start to believe in something, but finding out the truth?

Originally posted by Abu Loren

Satan will work overtime to put doubts in your mind.

Or maybe you realize, for instance, that you and I and all animals and plants on this planet wouldn't be here if it weren't for evolution.

Originally posted by Abu Loren

The closer you are to God, the more fulfilling your life is

Originally posted by TG12345

I don't think that a religion that is truly of no compulsion would punish people for leaving. I also think it is a form of weakness to punish people for no longer believing what you believe, and points to an inability to convince them to come back to what you believe is true, and a fear that others will also fall away.

I just have to say that I totally agree with you here.

Edited by W.S. - 11 January 2013 at 11:00am

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Originally posted by Nausheen Originally...

Fri, 11 Jan 2013 04:17:10 +0000

Author: TG12345
Subject: 24611
Posted: 11 January 2013 at 4:17am

Originally posted by Nausheen

Originally posted by TG12345

Caringheart, it is to my understanding that Islam does not teach that people who leave the faith are to be killed, but this was only for those who fought the Muslims after leaving Islam.

Apostacy is another very complicated issue for non-muslims, like so many others they found in islam.

If an apostate does not voice their choices openly, the sharia has nothing to do with them and it is not the business of common people to punish them under any circumstances.
If they really want to make public of their choice, then they better go out of darul-haram, ie out of a land which is ruled by islamic sharia.

...And, there are very many details to how and when the sharia deals with an apostate.

Punishment of apostacy is indeed a death sentence.

As for those who enter islam in western countries, if realize later that they have made a mistake, there is no problem ... they can do whatever they like.

Salaam Alaikum Nausheen,

Thank you for being so honest and open about your faith. I have spoken to other Muslims who have argued the death penalty for apostacy applied only during the time of Muhammad, I wasn't aware of Muslims (outside of countries like Afghanistan etc) who believe it should still be applied.

I have to say, with all due respect, that this is one of the reasons I would never become Muslim. I don't think that a religion that is truly of no compulsion would punish people for leaving. I also think it is a form of weakness to punish people for no longer believing what you believe, and points to an inability to convince them to come back to what you believe is true, and a fear that others will also fall away.

Judas betrayed Jesus, yet He never punished him. Christianity does not allow us to kill even our enemies, we are to show love to our friends and neighbours and enemies alike. We are told to specifically pray for our enemies.

People who turn away from Christianity turn away from the Truth, they may or may not come back to Jesus. If they do, God will welcome them with open arms. If they do not, they will lose their salvation. He will be their judge.

He, not us. Our job is to pray for them, witness to them and to love them.

I have to say I strongly disagree with the Islamic teaching (if that is indeed what Islam teaches, since I do know Muslims who believe differently) that apostates should be made to leave a Muslim nation or be killed if they make their choice public.

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Originally posted by CaringheartAbu...

Fri, 11 Jan 2013 02:16:25 +0000

Author: Abu Loren
Subject: 24611
Posted: 11 January 2013 at 2:16am

Originally posted by Caringheart

Abu Loren,

I understand that you completely believe in what you believe in,
but I do not. You have been free to challenge me, have you not? I also challenge what you believe.

Salaam,
Caringheart

Ever since I've known you in this forum you have closed your ears to what we say to you and twist our words to suit your own belief. You divert believers away from the Straight Path, this is a great sin and hence the reason I called you a demon.

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : This was a beautiful topic started...

Thu, 10 Jan 2013 22:38:08 +0000

Author: Nausheen
Subject: 24611
Posted: 10 January 2013 at 10:38pm

This was a beautiful topic started by Abu Loren, and I hate to derail it with the apostasy discussion.
If anyone is annoyed by the discourse, please feel free to voice it. I will not mind taking it to a new string.

Hello Caringheart,

Thank you for respecting us and our belief. I hope you also do not see any disrepect towards yourself or your religion in this response of mine, as none whatsoever is intended.

"I think apostasy is a complicated issue not just for non-muslims but for the muslim as well. One that must be addressed."

You are partly correct. It is an issue for a) muslims who have entered islam without doing their homework, and now somehow want to get out.
b) those muslims who are active in dawah work and need to discuss the issue with non-muslims.

I myself got aquainted with it on islamicity, after it was brought up by an apostate. Thanks to him.

"By who? Does your allah say that humans are to carry this out upon one another... or is it meant that they condemn themselves to death, rather than eternal life, at judgement day when they meet their maker?"

The 'hudud of Allah' - ie the punishments in islam, which are pronounced on a person through the sharia are supposed to be commands of Allah.
Although the sharia laws are executed by 'humans' its function is like that of a judiciary in secular governments. Sharia is not equivalent to just any human being, like a judiciary.
The laws and prescribed punishments in a judiciary are made by humans, but the laws and punishemnts in sharia are made by Allah.
- this is not a mere personal statement, it is the islamic belief that the laws and prescibed punishments are divine in nature.

"... until Islam comes to their country... then they may be in for something they didn't bargain for... their loss of freedom to choose... of 'no compulsion in religion'."

You mean when islamic sharia becomes a governing force in their country ...
weather or not that happens in near future. Faith and matters of afterlife should never be taken lightly. For the person who wants to enter islam, should not do so without thorough scrutiny of the belief system and their own spiritual inclination towards it. One who is in doubt should wait and research further till their heart is fully in line with it.

I agree with Abu Loren that once a person enters the faith Shaytan starts working overtime with whispers ... however Allah has said that the temptations of the shaytan are weak. He only suggests, he cannot physically make a person act upon those suggestions. One who turns to Allah and takes refuge in Him from the whispers of shaytan these doubts get fainter, and gradually fade away.

You've said in another post that one cannot learn about islam without entering it - this is wrong. No knowledge is hidden from anyone. It may be camaflouged in the propaganda, lies and delusions about islam from the anti-islamic activists. From the Muslims, there is no secret agenda of trapping people in islam, one enters for the sake of Allah and for the benefit of their own soul, thus benefit is for the person who accepts.

Peace!

Edited by Nausheen - 10 January 2013 at 10:39pm

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Abu Loren,I understand that you...

Thu, 10 Jan 2013 22:12:01 +0000

Author: Caringheart
Subject: 24611
Posted: 10 January 2013 at 10:12pm

Abu Loren,

I understand that you completely believe in what you believe in,
but I do not. You have been free to challenge me, have you not? I also challenge what you believe.

Salaam,
Caringheart

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Originally posted by Nausheen Originally...

Thu, 10 Jan 2013 21:59:31 +0000

Author: Caringheart
Subject: 24611
Posted: 10 January 2013 at 9:59pm

Originally posted by Nausheen

Greetings Nausheen,

I do mean this reply with all due respect to you because I do respect you and I do care about your belief.

"Apostacy is another very complicated issue for non-muslims"

I think apostasy is a complicated issue not just for non-muslims but for the muslim as well. One that must be addressed.

"Punishment of apostacy is indeed a death sentence."

By who? Does your allah say that humans are to carry this out upon one another... or is it meant that they condemn themselves to death, rather than eternal life, at judgement day when they meet their maker?

"As for those who enter islam in western countries, if realize later that they have made a mistake, there is no problem ... they can do whatever they like. "

... until Islam comes to their country... then they may be in for something they didn't bargain for... their loss of freedom to choose... of 'no compulsion in religion'.

Salaam,
Caringheart

Edited by Caringheart - 10 January 2013 at 10:05pm

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : I feel bad for the upset...

Thu, 10 Jan 2013 21:10:37 +0000

Author: Caringheart
Subject: 24611
Posted: 10 January 2013 at 9:10pm

I feel bad for the upset that I caused to Abu Loren. I just am stating what I, and others, see in the doctrine of Islam. If I am wrong I have always been open to hearing the other side, but I also feel it is important to discuss the issues as they present to the world.

There is a criticism also of Christianity, where ministers are quick to invite visitors to church to come forward and say the Jesus prayer and misleads people into believing that by saying this prayer they are saved. It grows the church, it can make the preacher look good, but does not save souls for God. The difference in Christianity is there is no penalty for falling away, except on one's own soul when you face God one day. There is no human condemnation for apostasy.

It has been seen in Islam to practice human condemnation for having 'wrong' beliefs. This is simply a fact and something that everyone should consider before making such an important decision. I do not think one can really learn about Islam though without first joining the ranks. I see this as a problem. Once you're in, no way out. You are bound to the religion and its requirements.

note: I am accustomed to speaking freely...
and, it is not as though my faith has not been challenged and insulted many times...
even the opening post of this thread is an attack on my faith and belief.

Edited by Caringheart - 30 January 2013 at 4:48pm

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Originally posted by TG12345 Caringheart,...

Thu, 10 Jan 2013 21:07:27 +0000

Author: Nausheen
Subject: 24611
Posted: 10 January 2013 at 9:07pm

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Originally posted by Caringheart and...

Thu, 10 Jan 2013 18:56:38 +0000

Author: TG12345
Subject: 24611
Posted: 10 January 2013 at 6:56pm

Originally posted by Caringheart

and once you take the Shahada, if you have doubts and find you have made a mistake, too bad... no way out.

Originally posted by Abu Loren

Caringheart go to hell you demon!

Abu Loren... seriously? Resorting to calling another poster a "demon"? Telling her to go to hell?

Stooping down to name calling and insults shows not only a lack of courtesy but also calls to question whether you have any apologetics or rebuttals to offer. It is also against the rules of this forum.

15. We will not tolerate personal attacks on participants from ANY Community (personal attacks are defined as comments that reflect upon the person instead of their opinion). Furthermore, any insults intended to ANY religion, ANY prophet of God, or ANY holy scripture shall be removed.

16. Slanderous, defamatory, obscene, indecent, lewd, pornographic, violent, abusive, insulting, threatening, or harassing comments are not tolerated. ALL comments by the person who adopts such a manner may be removed and the person will lose the privilege of participating in the forums in future. We will try to block attempts from the same person to sign up with a different User name as well.

http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=4589&FID=30&PR=3

This kind of trashtalk and insults is something I saw used on CARM by some Islamophobic evangelicals. I am an evangelical Christian myself, and always called these jerks on it when they insulted Muslims. I really didn't think you would be behaving like them.

I feel sorry for you, bro. Praying for you that God frees you of your hatred and draws you to Him.

Caringheart, it is to my understanding that Islam does not teach that people who leave the faith are to be killed, but this was only for those who fought the Muslims after leaving Islam.

Edited by TG12345 - 10 January 2013 at 6:59pm

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : Originally posted by Caringheart and...

Thu, 10 Jan 2013 18:32:45 +0000

Author: Abu Loren
Subject: 24611
Posted: 10 January 2013 at 6:32pm

Originally posted by Caringheart

and once you take the Shahada, if you have doubts and find you have made a mistake, too bad... no way out.

Caringheart go to hell you demon!

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : and once you take the Shahada,...

Thu, 10 Jan 2013 13:58:21 +0000

Author: Caringheart
Subject: 24611
Posted: 10 January 2013 at 1:58pm

and once you take the Shahada, if you have doubts and find you have made a mistake, too bad... no way out.

The Final Hurdle of becoming a Muslim is : As'alaamu Alaikkum...

Thu, 10 Jan 2013 11:37:01 +0000

Author: Abu Loren
Subject: 24611
Posted: 10 January 2013 at 11:37am

As'alaamu Alaikkum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuhu

(Peace, Mercy and Blessings of Allah be upon you)

So your curiosity is aroused about Islam. You've heard this and that but mostly bad things from your parents and friends. Then you decide to check it out for yourself. You read the Holy Qur'an and the Hadiths, you check out the life of Prophet Muhammad (SalAllahu Alayhi Wa Sallam) and to your amazement you realis that you have been sold a big lie.

You want to believe that there is only One God, that all the Prophets and Messengers (peace be upon them all) of God were sent to warn people who were astray. Jesus (Alayhi Salaam) is the Messiah and a mighty Prophet of God. He is fully human like you and me, therefore worshipping him like a god is wrong. God has always been outside of his creation.

You find out the truth for yourself, yet there still remains a nagging doubt. You are sure but at the same time you want to deny that truth. What would family and friends say? Am I a traitor to my religion and to my people? The agony of doubt remains for a while but each day your reslove is getting stronger. I know the truth and I don't care what people say. I want my soul to be saved. I want to spend eternity with God my Maker rather than spending eternity burning in hell.

So the final hurdle is yourself. You must overcome yourself and decide what is more important. Looking from the outside, overcoming this hurdle is really simple. You just find two witnesses and declare the Shahada "Ashadu anla Ilaha Illallah wa ashadu anna Muhammadan abduhu rasooluhu". I declare that there is no God but Allah and that Muhammad is His slave and Messenger.

If you take the Shahada and submit yourself wholly to God and become a Muslim, then the trials and tribulations will begin. Satan will work overtime to put doubts in your mind, your family and friends may disown you, you may feel all alone and helpless and without hope. Just remember at this time that people who really love you will never leave you at a time like this and you only need God to be at your side. The closer you are to God, the more fulfilling your life is. Family and friends may abandon you but only God will be with you always and forever.

Edited by Abu Loren - 11 January 2013 at 2:04am