Neither the word Trinity nor the explicit doctrine appears in the New Testament, nor did Jesus and his followers intend to contradict the Shema in the Hebrew Scriptures: “Hear, O Israel: The Lord our God is one Lord” (Deuteronomy 6:4). The earliest Christians, however, had to cope with the implications of the coming of Jesus Christ and of the presumed presence and power of God among them—i.e., the Holy Spirit, whose coming was connected with the celebration of the Pentecost. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit were associated in such New Testament passages as the Great Commission: “Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit” (Matthew 28:19); and in the apostolic benediction: “The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ and the love of God and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit be with you all” (2 Corinthians 13:14). Thus, the New Testament established the basis for the doctrine of the Trinity.

The doctrine developed gradually over several centuries and through many controversies. Initially, both the requirements of monotheism inherited from the Hebrew Scriptures and the implications of the need to interpret the biblical teaching to Greco-Roman religions seemed to demand that the divine in Christ as the Word, or Logos, be interpreted as subordinate to the Supreme Being. An alternative solution was to interpret Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as three modes of the self-disclosure of the one God but not as distinct within the being of God itself. The first tendency recognized the distinctness among the three, but at the cost of their equality and hence of their unity (subordinationism); the second came to terms with their unity, but at the cost of their distinctness as “persons” (modalism). It was not until the 4th century that the distinctness of the three and their unity were brought together in a single orthodox doctrine of one essence and three persons.

The Council of Nicaea in 325 stated the crucial formula for that doctrine in its confession that the Son is “of the same substance [homoousios] as the Father,” even though it said very little about the Holy Spirit. Over the next half century, Athanasius defended and refined the Nicene formula, and, by the end of the 4th century, under the leadership of Basil of Caesarea, Gregory of Nyssa, and Gregory of Nazianzus (the Cappadocian Fathers), the doctrine of the Trinity took substantially the form it has maintained ever since. It is accepted in all of the historic confessions of Christianity, even though the impact of the Enlightenment decreased its importance.

http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/605512/Trinity

The Trimurti doctrine teaches there are three gods who exist in one form. The Trinity doctrine teaches that one God exists as three persons.

Its theology is Apostolic and Catholic, and has remained unchanged throughout its history. Its doctrine of the Holy Trinity is in conformity with that of the Council of Nicea, at which it was represented.

http://www.nestorian.org/history_of_the_nestorian_churc.html

The Syrian Orthodox church  accepts only three Ecumenical Synods namely Nicea (A.D.325), Constantinople (A.D. 381) and Ephesus (A. D. 431) as the universal Synods. The Church meticulously observe all faith declaration of the Nicean Creed. The western church at a later stage appended a statement to this creed attributing the Holy Ghost to be originating from Son also, (Filioque) which we do not accept. The Church was totally merged with the divine element and became one (Monophysite).

http://www.jacobitesyrianchurch.org/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=49&Itemid=60

Transliteration

 la  yiḵ·heh  wə·la  yā·rūṣ,  ‘aḏ-  yā·śîm  bā·’ā·reṣ  miš·pāṭ;  ū·lə·ṯō·w·rā·ṯōw  ’î·yîm  yə·ya·ḥę·lū.  p̄ 

English Translation (New King James Version)

He will not fail nor be discouraged,
till He has established justice in the earth;
And the coastlands shall wait for His law.”

Fulfillment

The hadith confrims this with the words ولن يقبضه الله حتى يقيم به الملة العوجاء بأن يقولوا لا إله إلا الله ويفتح "Allah will not let him (the Prophet) die till he makes straight the crooked people by making them say: "None has the right to be worshipped but Allah," The Prophet was given a detailed Law (Shariah) by Allah, which is based on supreme justice, a Law similar to the Law of Moses in its comprehensiveness. Prior to the advent of Prophet Muhammad (sws), total anarchy had gripped Arabia, lewdness was rampant; slavery, usury, bloodshed, and tribal feuds was the order of the day. When the Noble Prophet commenced his mission of reforming his society based on the message of monotheism, he faced stiff opposition from the Pagans. When all the lucrative offers made to him to abandon his preaching did not work, the pagans of Makka resorted to torture and severe persecution. In the face of this stiff opposition an ordinary man might be discouraged, but the Noble Prophet (sws) struggled on. His mesage of equality of all humans was attractive for the slaves and the downtrodden. Many such as Bilal, Khabbab ibn al-Aratt, Yasir and Sumayya embraced Islam. These new converts suffered the most. But I only want to point out the grand prophecy which Prophet Muhammad (sws) made in these testing times. Following is the account given in Bukhari,

سمعت خبابا يقول أتيت النبي صلى الله عليه وسلم وهو متوسد بردة وهو في ظل الكعبة وقد لقينا من المشركين شدة فقلت يا رسول الله ألا تدعو الله فقعد وهو محمر وجهه فقال لقد كان من قبلكم ليمشط بمشاط الحديد ما دون عظامه من لحم أو عصب ما يصرفه ذلك عن دينه ويوضع المنشار على مفرق رأسه فيشق باثنين ما يصرفه ذلك عن دينه وليتمن الله هذا الأمر حتى يسير الراكب من صنعاء إلى حضرموت ما يخاف إلا الله زاد بيان والذئب على غنمه

Narrated Khabbab:

I came to the Prophet while he was leaning against his sheet cloak in the shade of the Ka'ba. We were suffering greatly from the pagans in those days. I said (to him). "Will you invoke Allah (to help us)?" He sat down with a red face and said, "(A believer among) those who were before you used to be combed with iron combs so that nothing of his flesh or nerves would remain on his bones; yet that would never make him desert his religion. A saw might be put over the parting of his head which would be split into two parts, yet all that would never make him abandon his religion. Allah will surely complete this religion (i.e. Islam) so that a traveler from Sana'a to Hadramawt will not be afraid of anybody except Allah." [Bukhari, Kitab Manaqib al-Ansar (Merits of the Helpers in Madinah) 63, Chapter 29, Hadith 191]

Notice the underlined words. The Prophet is predicting this at a time when there were hardly 150 Muslims in the whole of Arabia. Khabbab (ra) saw these words fulfilled in his lifetime. Is this not the fulfillment of the words "He will not fail nor be discouraged, till He has established justice in the earth"?

عن عطاء بن يسار قال لقيت عبد الله بن عمرو بن العاص رضي الله عنهما قلت أخبرني عن صفة رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم في التوراة قال أجل والله إنه لموصوف في التوراة ببعض صفته في القرآن يا أيها النبي إنا أرسلناك شاهدا ومبشرا ونذيرا وحرزا للأميين أنت عبدي ورسولي سميتك المتوكل ليس بفظ ولا غليظ ولا سخاب في الأسواق ولا يدفع السيئة بالسيئة ولكن يعفو ويغفر ولن يقبضه الله حتى يقيم به الملة العوجاء بأن يقولوا لا إله إلا الله ويفتح بها أعينا عميا وآذانا صما وقلوبا غلفا- تابعه عبد العزيز بن أبي سلمة عن هلال وقال سعيد عن هلال عن عطاء عن ابن سلام غلف كل شيء في غلاف سيف أغلف وقوس غلفاء ورجل أغلف إذا لم يكن مختونا  [صحيح البخاري » كتاب البيوع » باب كراهية السخب في السوق]

Narrated Ata bin Yasar:

I met Abdullah bin 'Amr bin Al-'As and asked him, "Tell me about the description of Allah's Apostle which is mentioned in Torah (i.e. Old Testament). He replied, 'Yes. By Allah, he is described in Torah with some of the qualities attributed to him in the Quran such as: "O Prophet ! We have sent you as a witness  and a giver of glad tidings, and a warner (Qur'an 48:8) and guardian of the Ummiyyeen. You are My Servant and My messenger (i.e. Apostle). I have named you "Al-Mutawakkil" (who depends upon Allah). You are neither discourteous, harsh nor a noise-maker in the markets And you do not do evil to those who do evil to you, but you deal with them with forgiveness and kindness. Allah will not let him (the Prophet) die till he makes straight the crooked people by making them say: "None has the right to be worshipped but Allah," with which will be opened blind eyes and deaf ears and enveloped hearts."
[Bukhari Kitaab al-Buyu' (Book of Sales and Trade) Chapter 50 (The dislike of raising voices in the market)]

A similar hadith is mention at another place in Bukhari as follows,

Narrated Abdullah bin Amr bin Al-As:

This Verse: 'Verily We have sent you (O Muhammad) as a witness, as a bringer of glad tidings and as a warner.' (48.8)

Which is in the Qur'an, appears in the Torah thus: 'Verily We have sent you (O Muhammad) as a witness, as a bringer of glad tidings and as a warner, and as a protector for the Ummiyyeen (i.e., the Arabs.) You are My Servant and My Apostle, and I have named you Al-Mutawakkil (one who depends upon Allah). You are neither hard-hearted nor of fierce character, nor one who shouts in the markets. You do not return evil for evil, but excuse and forgive. Allah will not take you unto Him till He guides through you a crocked (curved) nation on the right path by causing them to say: "None has the right to be worshipped but Allah." With such a statement He will cause to open blind eyes, deaf ears and hardened hearts.'
[Bukhari Kitaab at-Tafseer' (Commentary of the Qur'an) Surah 48 (Fath), Chapter 3 (Verily We have sent you  as a witness, as a bringer of glad tidings and as a warner)]

http://www.mushafiqsultan.com/isaiah-42-describes-prophet-muhammad-al-mustafaa/

So as to where Muhammad is described in the Injil, there is still no answer to that.

Yahya related to me from Malik from Abu'z-Zinad from al-Araj that Abu Hurayra said, "The Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, 'The muslim eats in one intestine, and the kafir eats in seven!' "

Book 49, Number 49.6.10:

Yahya related to me from Malik from Suhayl ibn Abi Salih from his father from Abu Hurayra that the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, gave hospitality to a kafir guest. The Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, ordered a sheep to be brought for him and it was milked. He drank its milk. Then another came, and he drank it. Then another came and he drank it until he had drunk the milk of seven sheep. In the morning he became muslim, and the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, ordered a sheep for him. It was milked and he drank its milk. Then he ordered another for him and he could not finish it. The Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, "The mumin drinks in one intestine, and the kafir drinks in seven intestines."

http://malikmuwatta.blogspot.ca/2008/03/book-49-description-of-prophet-may.html

If nothing was removed, then where is Muhammad mentioned in the Bible, Old Testament or New Testament?

Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

You have a NIV Bible as well as an NIV? What?

Oops I meant NIV and ESV.

Originally posted by TG12345


I am reading through the links you posted in your last reply, I have to admit I haven't seen the one you are referring to yet.

Where do you think Muhammad is mentioned in the Torah or Prophets?

Where do you think he is mentioned in the Gospels or New Testament? I am glad you realize He is not the Comforter.

Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

  The hadith implies Prophets as in Isaiah 42(?):

Narrated Ata bin Yasar:

I met Abdullah bin 'Amr bin Al-'As and asked him, "Tell me about the description of Allah's Apostle which is mentioned in Torah (i.e. Old Testament). He replied, 'Yes. By Allah, he is described in Torah with some of the qualities attributed to him in the Quran such as: "O Prophet ! We have sent you as a witness  and a giver of glad tidings, and a warner (Qur'an 48:8) and guardian of the Ummiyyeen. You are My Servant and My by CouponDropDown">messenger (i.e. Apostle). I have named you "Al-Mutawakkil" (who depends upon Allah). You are neither discourteous, harsh nor a noise-maker in the markets And you do not do evil to those who do evil to you, but you deal with them with forgiveness and kindness. Allah will not let him (the Prophet) die till he makes straight the crooked people by making them say: "None has the right to be worshipped but Allah," with which will be opened blind eyes and deaf ears and enveloped hearts."
[Bukhari Kitaab al-Buyu' (Book of Sales and Trade) Chapter 50 (The dislike of raising voices in the market)]

Read my links for more info on this.

Please show me which part of Isaiah 42 you believe prophesies of Muhammad.

Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

  The only accounts in the New Testament for Jesus' life are the Gospels are they not? So the Prophecy of Muhammad would be in the Gospel.

If that is the case, where is he prophesied in the Gospels?

Originally posted by TG12345


I asked because previously you wrote that there is a Shia Quran. So you do not believe this to be the case?

Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

  I do not know much about Shia Islam.

Then why did you say there is a Shia Quran?

Originally posted by TG12345


Yet if the Gospel = New Testament, it clearly states that Jesus was crucified. Can you please show me the hadith you are referring to? I guess I haven't gotten to it yet.
If you believe that the Bible is not corrupted, then the Quran and the Bible conflict since the Bible does state clearly that Jesus was crucified. Interestingly, the authors of "unchanging word" also believe He was crucified, though not that He is God.

Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

  There are different books in the New Testament, not just the Gospels.

Yes, that is true. Do you believe all the New Testament is the Injil and from God as the authors of "unchanging word" do, or just the Gospels?

Originally posted by 786SalamKhan



Ibn Abbas said, "Just before Allah raised Jesus to the Heavens, Jesus went to his disciples, who were twelve inside the house. When he arrived, his hair was dripping with water (as if he had just had a bath) and he said, 'There are those among you who will disbelieve in me twelve times after you had believed in me.' He then asked, 'Who among you will volunteer for his appearance to be transformed into mine, and be killed in my place. Whoever volunteers for that, he will be with me (in Paradise).' One of the youngest ones among them volunteered, but Jesus asked him to sit down. Jesus asked again for a volunteer, and the same young man volunteered and Jesus asked him to sit down again. Then the young man volunteered a third time and Jesus said, 'You will be that man,' and the resemblance of Jesus was cast over that man while Jesus ascended to Heaven from a hole in the roof of the house. When the Jews came looking for Jesus, they found that young man and crucified him. Some of Jesus' followers disbelieved in him twelve times after they had believed in him. They then divided into three groups. One group, the Jacobites, said, 'Allah remained with us as long as He willed and then ascended to Heaven.' Another group, the Nestorians, said, 'The son of Allah was with us as long as he willed and Allah took him to Heaven.' Another group, the Muslims, said, 'The servant and Messenger of Allah remained with us as long as Allah willed, and Allah then took him to Him.' The two disbelieving groups cooperated against the Muslim group and they killed them. Ever since that happened, Islam was then veiled until Allah sent Muhammad."

I don't know how authentic this

I do not know how authentic this is either, but for the sake of Ibn Abbas' credibility I hope he didn't actually state this. Even if we disregard the claim that Jesus was not crucified and that someone offered to take his place (which I do not believe of course), the claim that there were the mentioned three groups of disciples and that two of the groups killed the third group is not only offensive to the disciples but false... and I will show you why.

The Nestorians were a Christian sect that came in existence in the 5th century, started by a bishop called Nestorius.
http://www.everyculture.com/Africa-Middle-East/Nestorians-History-and-Cultural-Relations.html

The Jacobites came into existence in the 4th century.
http://www.everyculture.com/Africa-Middle-East/Jacobites-History-and-Cultural-Relations.html

As you and I know, Jesus lived on earth in the first century.


Can you please provide the source from where you got the commentary? Thanks.
 

Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

   Crucifixion followed by a resurrection in the Quran is still possible as it says ".....for of a surety they killed him not:-"
—Qur'an, sura 4 157 Could mean they did not kill him for good or definite as Jews and other non believers think they did.

Of course Jesus was not killed "for good". He rose from the dead!

Praise God!

The verse you cited says though very clearly that Muslims believe Jesus was not only not killed, but also not crucified.

4:157

And because of their saying: We slew the Messiah, Jesus son of Mary, Allah's messenger - they slew him not nor crucified him, but it appeared so unto them; and lo! those who disagree concerning it are in doubt thereof; they have no knowledge thereof save pursuit of a conjecture; they slew him not for certain.

Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

   But in Islam whether he was killed or not is not that important but that he is alive in Heaven and there will be a Second Coming.

The fact however is that He was both crucified and died on the cross... and then He came back to life. He is alive in Heaven and there will be a second coming. On that we agree.

Originally posted by TG12345

These passages do not contradict the crucifixion. The angels would have protected Jesus from falling if He jumped, it doesn't say He would be protected from the crucifixion.

Jesus could have called on angels to have protected Him from crucifixion.

Matthew 26:53

⁵³ Do you think that I cannot appeal to my Father, and he will at once send me more than twelve legions of angels?

Instead, He chose to suffer. He could have escaped from all this, but chose not to.

Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

   That contradicts Matthew 27:46:

⁴⁶ About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli,c]">[c] lema sabachthani?” (which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).

Where is the contradiction? Jesus knew it was the will of the Father that He die.

Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

   Also, you believe Jesus to be God yet he's calling out to his God!?

On earth, He made Himself voluntarily inferior to the Father, as the passages I cited previously in other threads already show.

Satan called on Jesus to worship him. Jesus was both man and God, and as man worshiped the Father.

Salaam to all!

Brothers can you see this guy is a pro.You nee a pro to deal with his game!

 Now, THE FACT: First of all when the scripture mentioned God reveal abook to some one it not literally a book that you can hold but rather a MESSAGEand later on people people memorise it or wrote it down; so when when the Quranmentioned names of books it is the message that was given to the respectiveProphet and it was then put in a form of a  literal book.

   As of the Injil, It was a message given to Jesus (S) and he convayed itto his disciples which was later on put in writhing with additional history ofJesus (S) and some opinions of others, that is why the qur’an conforms themessage but point out the additional imformation:

·                “There is amongthem a section who distort the Bookwith their tongues: (as they read) you would think it is a part of the Book, but it is no part of the Book; and they say, “That is from Allah,” But it is not from Allah: it is theywho tell a lie against Allah, and (well) they know it! (Q.3:78)

·              Ye People of the Book! Why do you mix truth with falsehood, and conceal the truth, while ye have knowledge. (Q.3:71)

·               O People of the Book! There hath come toyou our Messenger, revealing to you muchthat you used to hide in your Book,and passing over much (that is now unnecessary): There hath come to you fromAllah a light [Muhamed (pbuh)] and a perspicuous Book.” (Q.5:15)

·               ye People of the Book!Believe in what We have (now) revealed, conforming what was (already) with you…(Q.4: 47)

·               None of Ourrevelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitutesomething better or similar: knowest thou not Allah hath power over allthings?  (Q.2:106) 

·               Children of Israel! Callto mind the (special) favors which I bestowed upon you, and I preferred you toall others (of your time period, in the past). (Q.2:47)

·               …in that they (Jews) broke the Covenant; that theyreject the signs of Allah; that they slew the Messengers in defiance ofright…Allah hath set the seal on their heart for their blasphemy…that they REJECTED FAITH… (Q.4:155-156)

·               Of the Jews there arethose who displace words fromtheir (right) place, and say “We hear and disobey,”…and but few of them willbelieve. (Q.4:46)

From those, too, who called themselves Christians We didtake a Covenant, But they forgot a goodpart of the message that was sentdown: So We stirred up enmity and hatred between the one and the other, tothe Day of Judgment. And soon will Allah show them what it is they have done. (Q.5:14)

…and the discipleswere called Christians first inAn-ti-och. (Act.11:26)

“Those who conceal the clear (Signs) We have sent down, andthe Guidance, after We have made itclear for the people in the Book,-onthem shall be Allah's curse, andthe curse of those entitled to curse,”

…Truth has (now)come, and falsehood perished: for falsehood is (by its nature) bound toperish. (Q.17:81)

Al-Bukhari reported that Ibn ‘Abbas said that the Ayah means they alter and add although none among Allah’s creation CAN REMOVE THE WORDS OF ALLAH FROM HIS BOOKS, THEY ALTER AND DISTORT THEIR APPARENT MEANINGS. Wahb bin Munabbih said, "The Tawrah and Injil REMAIN AS ALLAH REVEALED THEM, AND NO LETTER IN THEM WAS REMOVED. However, the people misguide others by addition and false interpretation, relying on books that they wrote themselves." 

Nothing was removed but additions(such as the crucifixion account added to the written gospels) were made and meanings were changed.

Originally posted by TG12345

I have a NIV Bible at home, as well as an NIV. When I used to be a Catholic Christian, I would read the NRSV. The differences are so minor in most cases one can barely notice them. Theologically, they make no real difference.

You have a NIV Bible as well as an NIV? What?

Originally posted by TG12345


I am reading through the links you posted in your last reply, I have to admit I haven't seen the one you are referring to yet.

Where do you think Muhammad is mentioned in the Torah or Prophets?

Where do you think he is mentioned in the Gospels or New Testament? I am glad you realize He is not the Comforter.

The hadith implies Prophets as in Isaiah 42(?):

Narrated Ata bin Yasar:

I met Abdullah bin 'Amr bin Al-'As and asked him, "Tell me about the description of Allah's Apostle which is mentioned in Torah (i.e. Old Testament). He replied, 'Yes. By Allah, he is described in Torah with some of the qualities attributed to him in the Quran such as: "O Prophet ! We have sent you as a witness  and a giver of glad tidings, and a warner (Qur'an 48:8) and guardian of the Ummiyyeen. You are My Servant and My by CouponDropDown">messenger (i.e. Apostle). I have named you "Al-Mutawakkil" (who depends upon Allah). You are neither discourteous, harsh nor a noise-maker in the markets And you do not do evil to those who do evil to you, but you deal with them with forgiveness and kindness. Allah will not let him (the Prophet) die till he makes straight the crooked people by making them say: "None has the right to be worshipped but Allah," with which will be opened blind eyes and deaf ears and enveloped hearts."
[Bukhari Kitaab al-Buyu' (Book of Sales and Trade) Chapter 50 (The dislike of raising voices in the market)]

Read my links for more info on this.

The only accounts in the New Testament for Jesus' life are the Gospels are they not? So the Prophecy of Muhammad would be in the Gospel.

Originally posted by TG12345


I asked because previously you wrote that there is a Shia Quran. So you do not believe this to be the case?

I do not know much about Shia Islam.

Originally posted by TG12345


Yet if the Gospel = New Testament, it clearly states that Jesus was crucified. Can you please show me the hadith you are referring to? I guess I haven't gotten to it yet.
If you believe that the Bible is not corrupted, then the Quran and the Bible conflict since the Bible does state clearly that Jesus was crucified. Interestingly, the authors of "unchanging word" also believe He was crucified, though not that He is God.

There are different books in the New Testament, not just the Gospels.

Ibn Abbas said, "Just before Allah raised Jesus to the Heavens, Jesus went to his disciples, who were twelve inside the house. When he arrived, his hair was dripping with water (as if he had just had a bath) and he said, 'There are those among you who will disbelieve in me twelve times after you had believed in me.' He then asked, 'Who among you will volunteer for his appearance to be transformed into mine, and be killed in my place. Whoever volunteers for that, he will be with me (in Paradise).' One of the youngest ones among them volunteered, but Jesus asked him to sit down. Jesus asked again for a volunteer, and the same young man volunteered and Jesus asked him to sit down again. Then the young man volunteered a third time and Jesus said, 'You will be that man,' and the resemblance of Jesus was cast over that man while Jesus ascended to Heaven from a hole in the roof of the house. When the Jews came looking for Jesus, they found that young man and crucified him. Some of Jesus' followers disbelieved in him twelve times after they had believed in him. They then divided into three groups. One group, the Jacobites, said, 'Allah remained with us as long as He willed and then ascended to Heaven.' Another group, the Nestorians, said, 'The son of Allah was with us as long as he willed and Allah took him to Heaven.' Another group, the Muslims, said, 'The servant and Messenger of Allah remained with us as long as Allah willed, and Allah then took him to Him.' The two disbelieving groups cooperated against the Muslim group and they killed them. Ever since that happened, Islam was then veiled until Allah sent Muhammad."

I do not know how authentic this hadith is. But if we disregard it a Crucifixion followed by a resurrection in the Quran is still possible as it says ".....for of a surety they killed him not:-"
—Qur'an, sura 4 157 Could mean they did not kill him for good or definite as Jews and other non believers think they did. But in Islam whether he was killed or not is not that important but that he is alive in Heaven and there will be a Second Coming.

Originally posted by TG12345

These passages do not contradict the crucifixion. The angels would have protected Jesus from falling if He jumped, it doesn't say He would be protected from the crucifixion.

Jesus could have called on angels to have protected Him from crucifixion.

Matthew 26:53

⁵³ Do you think that I cannot appeal to my Father, and he will at once send me more than twelve legions of angels?

Instead, He chose to suffer. He could have escaped from all this, but chose not to.

That contradicts Matthew 27:46:

⁴⁶ About three in the afternoon Jesus cried out in a loud voice, “Eli, Eli,c]">[c] lema sabachthani?” (which means “My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?”).

Also, you believe Jesus to be God yet he's calling out to his God!?

And in the verses where Satan tells Jesus (who you believe to be God) to worship but Jesus(who you believe to be God) says he serves and worships the Lord his God only!?

Originally posted by TG12345

Please show me some of the science claims, let's look at them together.

Why? You do not think so?

Originally posted by TG12345

Notice that this was Jesus talking about Himself. When He returns, He will judge the world and send many people to hell.

Did Jesus himself say will judge to send people to either Heaven or Hell? Doesn't that contradict his teaching to condemn not?

Originally posted by TG12345

This was a parable describing what will happen to those who reject God. It was not Jesus giving His disciples permission to fight their enemies.

Originally posted by TG12345


Does that mean yes or no?

Thanks for the Surah quotation but I can't say it answered my question. Did Muhammad say the words attributed to him in Bukhari Book #8, #429?

Can you answer please with a "yes" or a "no"?

LOL, thanks for not holding grudges against me. If I am not mistaken, you referred me to Muwatta so I could read the Sunnah. Are you saying that Muhammad's words in Bukhari and Muslim are Sunnah also?

As for Muhammad "not" being in the Bible, I already posted a link in my last reply(which I don't know if you have read yet) with a hadith that describes Muhammad in the "Tawrat"; it suggests that the Tawrat actually refers to the Torah AND the Nevi'im(Prophets) sections of the Tanakh. As for Muhammad in the Injil the Quran already gives us a hint:

And [mention] when Jesus, the son of Mary, said, "O children of Israel, indeed I am the messenger of Allah to you confirming what came before me of the Torah and bringing good tidings of a messenger to come after me, whose name is Ahmad." But when he came to them with clear evidences, they said, "This is obvious magic."(61:6)

Luke 4:10-12
10 For the Scriptures say, ‘He will order his angels to protect and guard you.
11 And they will hold you up with their hands so you won’t even hurt your foot on a stone.’”
12 Jesus responded, “The Scriptures also say, ‘You must not test the Lord your God.’”

Matthew 4:5-10
5 Then the devil took him to the holy city, Jerusalem, to the highest point of the Temple,
6 and said, “If you are the Son of God, jump off! For the Scriptures say, ‘He will order his angels to protect you. And they will hold you up with their hands so you won’t even hurt your foot on a stone.’”
7 Jesus responded, “The Scriptures also say, ‘You must not test the Lord your God.’”
8 Next the devil took him to the peak of a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory.
9 “I will give it all to you,” he said, “if you will kneel down and worship me.”
10 “Get out of here, Satan,” Jesus told him. “For the Scriptures say, ‘You must worship the Lord your God and serve only him.’”

Although both the Bible and Quran are not science books they do contain aspects of science before man had discovered them, the Quran even more so and it is a much smaller book and doesn't really conflict with itself, is this not proof to you that the Quran is G-d's word? The Quran is right about many things so I don't see why it wouldn't be right about what it differs from the Bible.

Also, may I ask which sect or denomination are you a part of?

Originally posted by TG12345


This is something we can both agree on.

Blessed be His Name.


It was awesome to be able to respond! Like with Rational, please forgive me for how long it takes me to get back to you and for the fact that my responses will probably take more time in the future.


Allahma3k.

Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

It's okay, due to time off I found some useful material for us both.

I read the article and it is interesting, but I have to say I disagree. I think that when Thomas said "my Lord and my God" to Jesus, he was referring to Jesus as both Lord and God.

I think if "my God" was an exclamation and Jesus was not God, Jesus would have rebuked him since we are not to take God's name in vain.

http://bibleq.net/answer/1360/

9 But Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest ² and asked him for letters to the synagogues at Damascus, so that if he found any belonging to the Way, men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem. ³ Now as he went on his way, he approached Damascus, and suddenly a light from heaven shone around him. ⁴ And falling to the ground he heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?” ⁵ And he said, “Who are you, Lord?” And he said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting. ⁶ But rise and enter the city, and you will be told what you are to do.” ⁷ The men who were traveling with him stood speechless, hearing the voice but seeing no one. ⁸ Saul rose from the ground, and although his eyes were opened, he saw nothing. So they led him by the hand and brought him into Damascus. ⁹ And for three days he was without sight, and neither ate nor drank.

¹⁰ Now there was a disciple at Damascus named Ananias. The Lord said to him in a vision, “Ananias.” And he said, “Here I am, Lord.” ¹¹ And the Lord said to him, “Rise and go to the street called Straight, and at the house of Judas look for a man of Tarsus named Saul, for behold, he is praying, ¹² and he has seen in a vision a man named Ananias come in and lay his hands on him so that he might regain his sight.” ¹³ But Ananias answered, “Lord, I have heard from many about this man, how much evil he has done to your saints at Jerusalem. ¹⁴ And here he has authority from the chief priests to bind all who call on your name.” ¹⁵ But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen instrument of mine to carry my name before the Gentiles and kings and the children of Israel. ¹⁶ For I will show him how much he must suffer for the sake of my name.” ¹⁷ So Ananias departed and entered the house. And laying his hands on him he said, “Brother Saul, the Lord Jesus who appeared to you on the road by which you came has sent me so that you may regain your sight and be filled with the Holy Spirit.” ¹⁸ And immediately something like scales fell from his eyes, and he regained his sight. Then he rose and was baptized; ¹⁹ and taking food, he was strengthened.

Acts 22:12-16

¹² “And one Ananias, a devout man according to the law, well spoken of by all the Jews who lived there, ¹³ came to me, and standing by me said to me, ‘Brother Saul, receive your sight.’ And at that very hour I received my sight and saw him. ¹⁴ And he said, ‘The God of our fathers appointed you to know his will, to see the Righteous One and to hear a voice from his mouth; ¹⁵ for you will be a witness for him to everyone of what you have seen and heard. ¹⁶ And now why do you wait? Rise and be baptized and wash away your sins, calling on his name.’

Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

You take that literally?

These words were not spoken by David, but by the Messiah.

Psalm 2:7-12

My Lord and my God - In this passage the name God is expressly given to Christ, in his own presence and by one of his own apostles. This declaration has been considered as a clear proof of the divinity of Christ, for the following reasons:

1. There is no evidence that this was a mere expression, as some have supposed, of surprise or astonishment.

2. The language was addressed to Jesus himself - "Thomas ...said unto him."

3. The Saviour did not reprove him or check him as using any improper language. If he had not been divine, it is impossible to reconcile it with his honesty that he did not rebuke the disciple. No pious man would have allowed such language to be addressed to him. Compare Acts 14:13-15; Revelation 22:8-9.

4. The Saviour proceeds immediately to commend Thomas for believing; but what was the evidence of his believing? It was this declaration, and this only. If this was a mere exclamation of surprise, what proof was it that Thomas believed? Before this he doubted. Now he believed, and gave utterance to his belief, that Jesus was his Lord and his God.

5. If this was not the meaning of Thomas, then his exclamation was a mere act of profaneness, and the Saviour would not have commended him for taking the name of the Lord his God in vain. The passage proves, therefore, that it is proper to apply to Christ the name Lord and God, and thus accords with what John affirmed in John 1:1, and which is established throughout this gospel.

http://bible.cc/john/20-28.htm

But in vain they do worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men.

Ciguatera poisoning is the most common nonbacterial, fish-borne poisoning in the United States. It is caused by consumption of reef fish that feed on certain dinoflagellates (ie, algae) associated with coral reef systems. At least 5 types of ciguatoxin have been identified and are noted to accumulate in larger and older fish higher up the food chain.

Ciguatera poisoning has been a significant concern in tropical areas for centuries and generally is believed to be confined to coral reef fish in water between the latitudes of 35 degrees north and 35 degrees south. One study of the impact of climate changes on ciguatera producing organisms has suggested that elevations of sea surface temperatures may expand the band of concern above and below the 35th degree parallels.^[1] Ironically, it also suggested that some areas may become too warm for the dinoflagellates to flourish. But, in the modern era of world travel and rapid transportation, many warm-water fish are available commercially in markets throughout the world, and cases of ciguatera poisoning may be seen in any location.

http://emedicine.medscape.com/article/813869-overview

Section: Game of the Sea

Yahya related to me from Malik from Nafi that Abd ar-Rahman ibn Abi Hurayra asked Abdullah ibn Umar about eating what was cast up by the sea and he forbade him to eat it. Then Abdullah turned and asked for a Qur'an, and read, "The game of the sea and its flesh are halal for you." Nafi added, "Abdullah ibn Umar sent me to Abdar-Rahman Ibn Abi Hurayra to say that there was no harm in eating it."

Yahya related to me from Malik from Zayd ibn Aslam that Sad al-Jari, the mawla of Umar ibn al-Khattab asked Abdullah ibn Umar about fish which had killed each other or which had died from severe cold . He said, "There is no harm in eating them.'' Sad said,' 'I then asked Abdullah ibn Amr ibn al As and he said the same."

Yahya related to me from Malik from Abu'z-Zinad from Abu Salama ibn Abd ar-Rahman from Abu Hurayra and Zayd ibn Thabit that they saw no harm in eating what was cast up by the sea.

Yahya related to me from Malik from Abu'z-Zinad from Abu Salama ibn Abd ar-Rahman that some people from al-Jar came to Marwan ibn al-Hakam and asked him about eating what was cast up by the sea. He said, "There is no harm in eating it." Marwan said, "Go to Zayd ibn Thabit and Abu Hurayra and ask them about it, then come to me and tell me what they say." They went to them and asked them, and they both said, "There is no harm in eating it " They returned to Marwan and told him. Marwan said, "I told you."

Malik said that there was no harm in eating fish caught by magians, because the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, "In the sea's water is purity, and that which is dead in it is halal. "

Malik said, "If it is eaten when it is dead, there is no harm in who catches it."

Section: The Intestines of the Kafir

Yahya related to me from Malik from Abu'z-Zinad from al-Araj that Abu Hurayra said, "The Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, 'The muslim eats in one intestine, and the kafir eats in seven!' "

Book 49, Number 49.6.10:

Yahya related to me from Malik from Suhayl ibn Abi Salih from his father from Abu Hurayra that the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, gave hospitality to a kafir guest. The Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, ordered a sheep to be brought for him and it was milked. He drank its milk. Then another came, and he drank it. Then another came and he drank it until he had drunk the milk of seven sheep. In the morning he became muslim, and the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, ordered a sheep for him. It was milked and he drank its milk. Then he ordered another for him and he could not finish it. The Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, "The mumin drinks in one intestine, and the kafir drinks in seven intestines."

http://malikmuwatta.blogspot.ca/2008/03/book-49-description-of-prophet-may.html

[/QUOTE]

Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

That is not what I'm saying. It is better to follow the Madhabs (Schools of Thought) than Hadith when following the Sunnah. Not every muslim has access to the Hadith but an average muslim has access to the Quran and Sunnah not by text but at least through his teacher. You asked where to read so I provided a list of books, I recommend for you Muwatta which can be found online.
Of course you can accept Hadith not just completely reject it especially one as important as that hadith. You just need the proper guidance or knowledge.

Can I ask you what makes the hadith above important? Do we know for sure that Muhammad said this? If so, is it binding for a Muslim to believe this?

Not trying to be argumentative, but I am curious what you and other think of this.

I will definitely read through the Muwatta, thank you for sharing it with me.

Originally posted by TG12345


Feel free to bring up one of these arguments if you want and we can discuss it.

Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

Do they not have any impact on Christian theology?

Let's look at these claims one by one.

Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

They also forgot to mention when Thomas saw Christ he called out to G-d and Christ praised him for that and other believers in G-d even though he had not taught them

I don't understand what you mean by this. Christ did not teach Thomas and other believers what? That He is God? He did so by saying He and the Father are one, that those who have seen Him have seen the Father, by saying He will judge the world, many other things.

Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

and that David is called begotten son in Psalms.

Can you please show me the verse you are referring to?

Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

And what about salvation for Moses and Abraham? Surely they never worshiped the Trinity and Malachi says G-d does not change.

God does not change. God also reveals Himself over time. He did not reveal He is a Trinity until He came down as Jesus. He refers to Himself in the plural sense throughout the New Testament, and He did personally come down and wrestle with Israel... and let him win. However, He didn't reveal He is a Trinity until the New Testament.

Did God reveal the Quran right away, or do you believe He revealed it with Muhammad and the prophets before him were given other books?

Originally posted by TG12345


Yes, I trust Paul's teachings. I have no reason not to. He was an amazing and courageous person who went from being a persecutor of the early church to one of its leaders, after he met Jesus.

Paul was accepted by Christ's followers and worked with them to build the early church. He suffered beatings, mockings, imprisonment, and eventually death for his faith.

Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

Well just because Paul saw Jesus alive he started preaching his Divinity,

Yes. You could say that just because Muhammad saw Gabriel according to your faith, he started preaching Islam.

Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

Paul abolished Moses' law even though Jesus came to fulfill it so how would he be a follower of Jesus?

This is what Jesus said:

Matthew 5:17,18

¹⁷ “Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. ¹⁸ For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished.

Jesus fulfilled the Law. He claimed that not one dot will pass from it until it is accomplished. This is what He did on the earth.

When He rose, the Law had been fulfilled by Him. All had been accomplished.

Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

And there was that time with Timothy's circumcision even though both our religions do not permit homosexuality...

I don't understand the connection between circumcision and homosexuality...

Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

Paul also taught that Christ died for all humanity's sins so it wouldn't even matter if anyone is non-Christian right?

Originally posted by TG12345


Ephesians 2:8,9

⁸ For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, ⁹ not a result of works, so that no one may boast.

Jesus died on the cross for all mankind. But we are saved by believing in Him.

Originally posted by TG12345

I'm not sure I understand, what are you neutral on?

Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

Never mind.

OK. Sorry, I can be kind of slow at times...


Edited by TG12345 - 25 January 2013 at 6:49pm]]> Fri, 25 Jan 2013 17:07:30 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24591&PID=173333#173333 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24591&PID=173310#173310 Author: 786SalamKhan
Subject: 24591
Posted: 24 January 2013 at 11:42pm

Wa Alaikum,

Originally posted by TG12345


Thanks for the link. Is it right to assume that since what matters is the Quran and Sunnah, a Muslim can then reject most of what is in Bukhari and Muslim and other hadiths?

Is following the hadiths just a good idea, or is accepting them crucial to salvation in Islam?

In other words, can a Muslim reject them and as long as he follows the Sunna and Quran still be a Muslim?

http://www.muftisays.com/viewarticle.php?article=zntaqleed

Originally posted by TG12345


Thanks for the link. Are you saying that Muslims are more obligated to follow what is in Bashar El Shariat then what is in Bukhari and Muslim?

For example, can a Muslim reject this statement as false:

(1) Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah: The Prophet said, "I have been given five things which were not given to any one else before me. 1. Allah made me victorious by awe, (by His frightening my enemies) for a distance of one month's journey. 2. The earth has been made for me (and for my followers) a place for praying and a thing to perform Tayammum, therefore anyone of my followers can pray wherever the time of a prayer is due. 3. The booty has been made Halal (lawful) for me yet it was not lawful for anyone else before me. 4. I have been given the right of intercession (on the Day of Resurrection). 5. Every Prophet used to be sent to his nation only but I have been sent to all mankind.  (Book #7, Hadith #331)

and still be a Muslim? Why or why not? Thanks.

That is not what I'm saying. It is better to follow the Madhabs (Schools of Thought) than Hadith when following the Sunnah. Not every muslim has access to the Hadith but an average muslim has access to the Quran and Sunnah not by text but at least through his teacher. You asked where to read so I provided a list of books, I recommend for you Muwatta which can be found online.
Of course you can accept Hadith not just completely reject it especially one as important as that hadith. You just need the proper guidance or knowledge.

Originally posted by TG12345


Feel free to bring up one of these arguments if you want and we can discuss it.

Do they not have any impact on Christian theology? They also forgot to mention when Thomas saw Christ he called out to G-d and Christ praised him for that and other believers in G-d even though he had not taught them and that David is called begotten son in Psalms. And what about salvation for Moses and Abraham? Surely they never worshiped the Trinity and Malachi says G-d does not change.

Originally posted by TG12345


Yes, I trust Paul's teachings. I have no reason not to. He was an amazing and courageous person who went from being a persecutor of the early church to one of its leaders, after he met Jesus.

Paul was accepted by Christ's followers and worked with them to build the early church. He suffered beatings, mockings, imprisonment, and eventually death for his faith.

Well just because Paul saw Jesus alive he started preaching his Divinity, Paul abolished Moses' law even though Jesus came to fulfill it so how would he be a follower of Jesus? And there was that time with Timothy's circumcision even though both our religions do not permit homosexuality...
Paul also taught that Christ died for all humanity's sins so it wouldn't even matter if anyone is non-Christian right?

Originally posted by TG12345


I'm not sure I understand, what are you neutral on?

Never mind.


Edited by 786SalamKhan - 24 January 2013 at 11:45pm]]> Thu, 24 Jan 2013 23:42:23 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24591&PID=173310#173310 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24591&PID=173294#173294 Author: TG12345
Subject: 24591
Posted: 24 January 2013 at 5:00pm

Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

Wa Alaikum,

Wa alaikum salaam.

Originally posted by TG12345


I have to admit I am confused, and there is something I am definitely not understanding, maybe you can help me. The Sunnah from what I read are the legal ways, orders, statements, acts of worship from Muhammad, right? The hadiths are collections of things that he said and did, is that correct?

If the hadiths and Sunnah are two different things, my question then is where can you read the Sunnah? Where can you read about the life of Muhammad and his teachings? I mistakenly assumed this was the hadith, I guess I was wrong.

Also, how do you know that 4:65 and 24:54 refer to the Sunnah and not the hadiths?

Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

http://www.islamawareness.net/Hadith/authenticity1.html

Thanks for the link. Is it right to assume that since what matters is the Quran and Sunnah, a Muslim can then reject most of what is in Bukhari and Muslim and other hadiths?

Is following the hadiths just a good idea, or is accepting them crucial to salvation in Islam?

In other words, can a Muslim reject them and as long as he follows the Sunna and Quran still be a Muslim?

Originally posted by TG12345


If Bukhari and Muslim and other hadiths are not the Sunnah, then what is? Where can I read it? Can you provide any links?

Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Sunni_books#Islamic_jurisprudence

Thanks for the link. Are you saying that Muslims are more obligated to follow what is in Bashar El Shariat then what is in Bukhari and Muslim?

For example, can a Muslim reject this statement as false:

(1) Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah: The Prophet said, "I have been given five things which were not given to any one else before me. 1. Allah made me victorious by awe, (by His frightening my enemies) for a distance of one month's journey. 2. The earth has been made for me (and for my followers) a place for praying and a thing to perform Tayammum, therefore anyone of my followers can pray wherever the time of a prayer is due. 3. The booty has been made Halal (lawful) for me yet it was not lawful for anyone else before me. 4. I have been given the right of intercession (on the Day of Resurrection). 5. Every Prophet used to be sent to his nation only but I have been sent to all mankind.  (Book #7, Hadith #331)

http://www.searchtruth.com/searchHadith.php?keyword=%22nation+only%22&translator=1&search=1&book=&start=0&records_display=10&search_word=all

and still be a Muslim? Why or why not? Thanks.

Originally posted by TG12345


They are interesting. There are some minor variations in Bible versions, but nothing that has any huge impact on Christian theology.

Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

http://www.turntoislam.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31511
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YW99U4JWNEc
http://www.answering-christianity.com/at.htm

Feel free to bring up one of these arguments if you want and we can discuss it.

Originally posted by TG12345


So what is the Gospel? This is explained in 1 Corinthians 15:1-11

Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

So you actually trust Paul's teachings? Well that explains alot.......
On another note:
'Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, ² and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

³  For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, ⁴ that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, ⁵ and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. ^6'

This is explaining Paul's Gospel not Jesus'.......

Yes, I trust Paul's teachings. I have no reason not to. He was an amazing and courageous person who went from being a persecutor of the early church to one of its leaders, after he met Jesus.


Notice the verse you quoted:


'Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, ² and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

³  For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, ⁴ that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, ⁵ and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. ^6'

Paul was accepted by Christ's followers and worked with them to build the early church. He suffered beatings, mockings, imprisonment, and eventually death for his faith.

Originally posted by TG12345


Thank you for yours. Sorry, I'm not sure if I understand what you mean that you concede. What are you conceding to?

Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

What I meant was because I withdrawed so I'm neutral with instead of against you(In debate), that kind of concession.

I'm not sure I understand, what are you neutral on? In either case, I wanted to say I enjoy our debates and if you want to continue I look forward to talking more.
]]> Thu, 24 Jan 2013 17:00:05 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24591&PID=173294#173294 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24591&PID=173223#173223 Author: 786SalamKhan
Subject: 24591
Posted: 23 January 2013 at 10:46am

Wa Alaikum,

Originally posted by TG12345


I have to admit I am confused, and there is something I am definitely not understanding, maybe you can help me. The Sunnah from what I read are the legal ways, orders, statements, acts of worship from Muhammad, right? The hadiths are collections of things that he said and did, is that correct?

If the hadiths and Sunnah are two different things, my question then is where can you read the Sunnah? Where can you read about the life of Muhammad and his teachings? I mistakenly assumed this was the hadith, I guess I was wrong.

Also, how do you know that 4:65 and 24:54 refer to the Sunnah and not the hadiths?

http://www.islamawareness.net/Hadith/authenticity1.html

Originally posted by TG12345


If Bukhari and Muslim and other hadiths are not the Sunnah, then what is? Where can I read it? Can you provide any links?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Sunni_books#Islamic_jurisprudence

Originally posted by TG12345


They are interesting. There are some minor variations in Bible versions, but nothing that has any huge impact on Christian theology.

http://www.turntoislam.com/forum/showthread.php?t=31511
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YW99U4JWNEc
http://www.answering-christianity.com/at.htm

Originally posted by TG12345


So what is the Gospel? This is explained in 1 Corinthians 15:1-11

So you actually trust Paul's teachings? Well that explains alot.......
On another note:
'Now I would remind you, brothers, of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, ² and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

³  For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, ⁴ that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, ⁵ and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. ^6'

This is explaining Paul's Gospel not Jesus'.......

Originally posted by TG12345


Thank you for yours. Sorry, I'm not sure if I understand what you mean that you concede. What are you conceding to?

What I meant was because I withdrawed so I'm neutral with instead of against you(In debate), that kind of concession.



Edited by 786SalamKhan - 23 January 2013 at 11:08am]]> Wed, 23 Jan 2013 10:46:28 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24591&PID=173223#173223 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24591&PID=173149#173149 Author: TG12345
Subject: 24591
Posted: 22 January 2013 at 4:41am

Originally posted by TG12345

Peace be upon you as well.

Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

Wa Alaikum, I know said I wasn't going to reply but are there some last few things I would like to say.

Wa alaikum salaam. Feel free to make any responses you want, just know that I will reply to them.

Originally posted by TG12345

I understand there is a substantial difference between the Quran and hadiths. Islam teaches the Quran was revealed by God to Muhammad through Gabriel, while the hadiths are his teachings that God revealed to him but are not part of the Quran.

However, as we both know the Quran tells its followers to defer to Muhammad for decisions. People can't have any real faith until their souls make no resistance to Muhammad's decisions and accept them with fullest conviction.

4:65

But no, by the Lord, they can have no (real) Faith, until they make thee judge in all disputes between them, and find in their souls no resistance against Thy decisions, but accept them with the fullest conviction.

Muslims are called to obey God and to obey Muhammad, according to the Quran. He preaches the clear message. This verse also says this duty was placed on him by God.

24:54

Say: "Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger: but if ye turn away, he is only responsible for the duty placed on him and ye for that placed on you. If ye obey him, ye shall be on right guidance. The Messenger's duty is only to preach the clear (Message).

If authentic hadith (like Bukhari and Muslim, as you will notice I am not quoting Abu Dawud or others that some see as suspect) contain mistakes, aren't you saying that the clear message God gave him is full of mistakes?

If I am wrong in any of this (ie that God does not tell people that what Muhammad told them is from Him and it must be followed if one is to follow God as these ayahs say) please correct me.

Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

Please stop trying to teach me Ahadith. I already know this. These Quran refer to the Sunnah of the Prophet and not Ahadith. Sunnah are the established acts of the Prophet and the closest way of following the Sunnah is to follow the one of the four Madhabs(Schools of thought) which by the way the founders appeared within 200 years after Prophet Muhammad while Bukhari and Muslim appeared around 600 years after!

I have to admit I am confused, and there is something I am definitely not understanding, maybe you can help me. The Sunnah from what I read are the legal ways, orders, statements, acts of worship from Muhammad, right? The hadiths are collections of things that he said and did, is that correct?

If the hadiths and Sunnah are two different things, my question then is where can you read the Sunnah? Where can you read about the life of Muhammad and his teachings? I mistakenly assumed this was the hadith, I guess I was wrong.

If Bukhari and Muslim and other hadiths are not the Sunnah, then what is? Where can I read it? Can you provide any links?

Also, how do you know that 4:65 and 24:54 refer to the Sunnah and not the hadiths?

According to Islaamnet,

Sunnah:=The legal way or ways, orders, acts of worship and statementsof the Prophet, that are idealsand models to be followed by Muslims.

http://www.islaamnet.com/whatissunnah.html

Interestingly, when I tried to look for Sunnahs to read them and came across sunnah.com, the collections were the hadiths.

http://sunnah.com/

Islam, the Arabic word Sunnah has come to denote the way Prophet Muhammad (S), the Messenger of Allah, lived his life. The Sunnah is the second source of Islamic jurisprudence, the first being the Qur’an. Both sources are indispensable; one cannot practice Islam without consulting both of them. The Arabic word hadith (pl. ahadith) is very similar to Sunnah, but not identical. A hadith is a narration about the life of the Prophet (S) or what he approved - as opposed to his life itself, which is the Sunnah as already mentioned.

In M. M. Azami's Studies in Hadith Methodology and Literature, the following precise definition of a hadith is given,

According to Muhaddithiin [scholars of hadith -ed.] it stands for 'what was transmitted on the authority of the Prophet, his deeds, sayings, tacit approval, or description of his sifaat (features) meaning his physical appearance. However, physical appearance of the Prophet is not included in the definition used by the jurists.'

Thus hadith literature means the literature, which consists of the narrations of the life of the Prophet and the things approved by him. However, the term was used sometimes in much broader sense to cover the narrations about the Companions [of the Prophet -ed.] and Successors [to the Companions -ed.] as well.

The explosion of Islam in the 7th and 8th centuries confronted Islamic scholars with a daunting task: to preserve the knowledge of the Sunnah of the Prophet (S). Hence the science of hadith evaluation was born.

http://www.nicheoftruth.org/pages/sunnah.htm

Originally posted by TG12345

Deuteronomy 18

18 “The Levitical priests, all the tribe of Levi, shall have no portion or inheritance with Israel. They shall eat the Lord's food offeringsa]">[a] as theirb]">[b] inheritance. ² They shall have no inheritance among their brothers; the Lord is their inheritance, as he promised them. ³ And this shall be the priests' due from the people, from those offering a sacrifice, whether an ox or a sheep: they shall give to the priest the shoulder and the two cheeks and the stomach. ⁴ The firstfruits of your grain, of your wine and of your oil, and the first fleece of your sheep, you shall give him. ⁵ For the Lord your God has chosen him out of all your tribes to stand and minister in the name of the Lord, him and his sons for all time.

Originally posted by 786SalaamKhan


Interesting, that goes against this:
Genesis 17:20

And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of twelve rulers, and I will make him into a great nation.

How does Deuteronomy 18 contradict this? Ishmael was indeed blessed by God and made into a great nation. Genesis 17 confirms this.

However, this does not change the fact that the word "brothers" refers to Israel. The passage you cited itself shows this.

18 “The Levitical priests, all the tribe of Levi, shall have no portion or inheritance with Israel. They shall eat the Lord's food offeringsa]">[a] as theirb]">[b] inheritance. ² They shall have no inheritance among their brothers; the Lord is their inheritance, as he promised them. ³ And this shall be the priests' due from the people, from those offering a sacrifice, whether an ox or a sheep: they shall give to the priest the shoulder and the two cheeks and the stomach. ⁴ The firstfruits of your grain, of your wine and of your oil, and the first fleece of your sheep, you shall give him. ⁵ For the Lord your God has chosen him out of all your tribes to stand and minister in the name of the Lord, him and his sons for all time.

Originally posted by 786SalaamKhan


And here are some interesting pages If you would like to see.
http://www.islamawareness.net/Christianity/bible_nt.html
http://www.islamawareness.net/Christianity/new.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fnSw6f6Pka4

They are interesting. There are some minor variations in Bible versions, but nothing that has any huge impact on Christian theology.

Originally posted by TG12345


No disrespect taken, 786SalaamKhan. I think these are important things to look at and debate, and hopefully the truth will come out of such discussions. If you want to not engage in them anymore, I have nothing against you.

I can assure you though that regardless of whether this discussion/debate would have continued or not, I would never curse, attack or insult you. My faith in Christ does not allow me to do that.

Salaam.

Originally posted by 786SalaamKhan

Thank you for your kindness. I forgot to say in my previous post that I concede.

Thank you for yours. Sorry, I'm not sure if I understand what you mean that you concede. What are you conceding to?

Salaam.
]]> Tue, 22 Jan 2013 04:41:16 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24591&PID=173149#173149 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24591&PID=173140#173140 Author: 786SalamKhan
Subject: 24591
Posted: 22 January 2013 at 3:11am

Originally posted by TG12345

Peace be upon you as well.

Wa Alaikum, I know said I wasn't going to reply but are there some last few things I would like to say.

Originally posted by TG12345

I understand there is a substantial difference between the Quran and hadiths. Islam teaches the Quran was revealed by God to Muhammad through Gabriel, while the hadiths are his teachings that God revealed to him but are not part of the Quran.

However, as we both know the Quran tells its followers to defer to Muhammad for decisions. People can't have any real faith until their souls make no resistance to Muhammad's decisions and accept them with fullest conviction.

4:65

But no, by the Lord, they can have no (real) Faith, until they make thee judge in all disputes between them, and find in their souls no resistance against Thy decisions, but accept them with the fullest conviction.

Muslims are called to obey God and to obey Muhammad, according to the Quran. He preaches the clear message. This verse also says this duty was placed on him by God.

24:54

Say: "Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger: but if ye turn away, he is only responsible for the duty placed on him and ye for that placed on you. If ye obey him, ye shall be on right guidance. The Messenger's duty is only to preach the clear (Message).

If authentic hadith (like Bukhari and Muslim, as you will notice I am not quoting Abu Dawud or others that some see as suspect) contain mistakes, aren't you saying that the clear message God gave him is full of mistakes?

If I am wrong in any of this (ie that God does not tell people that what Muhammad told them is from Him and it must be followed if one is to follow God as these ayahs say) please correct me.

Please stop trying to teach me Ahadith. I already know this. These Quran refer to the Sunnah of the Prophet and not Ahadith. Sunnah are the established acts of the Prophet and the closest way of following the Sunnah is to follow the one of the four Madhabs(Schools of thought) which by the way the founders appeared within 200 years after Prophet Muhammad while no disrespect to them Bukhari and Muslim appeared around 600 years after! I only follow hadith that don't conflict or contradict themselves, others I go to someone knowledgeable for guidance or I just leave it.

Originally posted by TG12345

Deuteronomy 18

18 “The Levitical priests, all the tribe of Levi, shall have no portion or inheritance with Israel. They shall eat the Lord's food offeringsa]">[a] as theirb]">[b] inheritance. ² They shall have no inheritance among their brothers; the Lord is their inheritance, as he promised them. ³ And this shall be the priests' due from the people, from those offering a sacrifice, whether an ox or a sheep: they shall give to the priest the shoulder and the two cheeks and the stomach. ⁴ The firstfruits of your grain, of your wine and of your oil, and the first fleece of your sheep, you shall give him. ⁵ For the Lord your God has chosen him out of all your tribes to stand and minister in the name of the Lord, him and his sons for all time.

Interesting, that goes against this:
Genesis 17:20

And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of twelve rulers, and I will make him into a great nation.

And here are some interesting pages If you would like to see.
http://www.islamawareness.net/Christianity/bible_nt.html
http://www.islamawareness.net/Christianity/new.html
http://www.islamawareness.net/DeadSeaScrolls/bible_scrolls_dead_sea.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fnSw6f6Pka4

Originally posted by TG12345


No disrespect taken, 786SalaamKhan. I think these are important things to look at and debate, and hopefully the truth will come out of such discussions. If you want to not engage in them anymore, I have nothing against you.

I can assure you though that regardless of whether this discussion/debate would have continued or not, I would never curse, attack or insult you. My faith in Christ does not allow me to do that.

Salaam.

Thank you for your kindness. I forgot to say in my previous post that I concede.


Edited by 786SalamKhan - 22 January 2013 at 5:15am]]> Tue, 22 Jan 2013 03:11:48 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24591&PID=173140#173140 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24591&PID=173130#173130 Author: TG12345
Subject: 24591
Posted: 21 January 2013 at 7:44pm

Originally posted by Abu Loren



As'alaamu Alaikkum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuhu

 

Good news for Christians and Jews.

 

<div ="hadith_narrated"="">Abu Burdah bin Abi Musa narrated from his father that the Messenger of Allah said:

<div ="text_details"="">                      "Three will receive their reward twice: A slave who fulfills the rights of Allah and the rights of his owners, then he will be given his reward twice. And a man who has a beautiful slave girl, so he teaches her good manners, then he frees her, then he married her seeking the Face of Allah by that; then he will be given his reward twice.

Originally posted by TG12345

Salaam Alaikum.Do you believe this applies to Christians and Jews today, or during Muhammad's time only?Also, what does the term "believe in" the earlier Book and "believe in" another Book mean? I would assume that means reading it and believing in what it says, am I right?

Originally posted by honeto

My two or so cents!

Answering your first question:
Yes it does. The Quran and the Prophet(pbuh) are valid till the end times.
The last line of the Hadith Abu Loren has written is very simple. If you believe in a book from God before, and believe the Quran to be from God, it is those whose reward will be doubled.
There were many who fit this category when the Quran was revealed and they accepted it to be from God, and became Muslim.
I personally believe that yes it applies to all of the people of the book that followed it's (Quran's) revelation. I say that on the basis of this understanding that once they accept the Quran, they enter light and guidance that also shows them that what they believed to be from God was indeed from God, just not in it's purity.
So as a reward for their test of faith, they are rewarded twice!
Hasan

Originally posted by honeto


Salaam Alaikum Hasan,Thank you for your answer. I will ask you the same question I asked of Abu Loren.What evidence is there that Christians, before they met Muhammad and had the Quran come to them, believed in or even stated there was such a thing as the Injil (which would be the 'previous Book' for Christians if I am not mistaken)? According to the hadith:And a man who believed in an earlier Book, then another Book
came to him and he believed in it; then he will be given his reward
twice." It is pretty clear from the text that the Christians rewarded twice first believed in an earlier Book, and then the Quran came to them and they believed in it.I have yet to find evidence outside the Quran and hadiths that Christians ever believed in a book like the Injil, which the Quran describes as a Scripture that was given to Jesus.If you have any evidence of the belief in the existence of a Book revealed to Jesus by God from Christians or other non-Muslims around or prior to the time of Muhammad, please show me.Allahu Akhbar.

Originally posted by honeto

TG12345,
sorry, I have been busy so could not reply soon, but here is my response and answer to your question.
First of all for me and any believer, the Quran being the Final word of God and the most authentic source with us today says so. So for a believer like myself there it is clear, what it says what it is. 

Salaam Alaikum, Hasan. Thank you for your response and please do not worry about it coming 'late', sometimes my responses can take a while too.

I feel the same way with the Bible that you do about the Quran so I understand where you are coming from, but if a non-believer questions something in the Bible, I try to say more than tell him or her it is from God so it is true. The Bible definitely is God breathed, but this explanation makes little sense to a non-Christian so I try to explain more.

Like you are doing below.

Originally posted by honeto

For those of you that needs other proves out side the authentic word of God, I have previously mentioned that what we have of the Injeel, you call the NT or the Bible,

Where does the Quran or hadiths say that what we have of the Injil is in the Bible or New Testament?

Originally posted by honeto

  there are verses that clearly show the existence of the Gospel, the one that Jesus went around preaching! Whatever Jesus was revealed to preach is the Gospel or Injeel.
Here are a couple of those verses for you:
Mark 1:14
"Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the GOSPEL of the kingdom of God,"
Matthew 9:35
"And Jesus went about all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the GOSPEL of the kingdom, and healing every sickness and every disease among the people."

And people other than Jesus also are recorded to have preached the same:
Luke 9:6 And they (the twelve disciples) departed, and went through the towns, preaching the GOSPEL, and healing every where.

Hasan

True, and as you surely see, there is nothing about the Gospel being a book that was revealed by God to Jesus as the Quran teaches. There is nothing about the Gospel about Muhammad, or about Him making birds out of clay or doing many other things that the Quran claims He did, like escaping the crucifixion, or saying He is not God.


So what is the Gospel? This is explained in 1 Corinthians 15:1-11


Now I would remind you, brothers,a]">[a] of the gospel I preached to you, which you received, in which you stand, ² and by which you are being saved, if you hold fast to the word I preached to you—unless you believed in vain.

³  For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received: that Christ died for our sins in accordance with the Scriptures, ⁴ that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day in accordance with the Scriptures, ⁵ and that he appeared to Cephas, then to the twelve. ⁶

 Then he appeared to more than five hundred brothers at one time, most of whom are still alive, though some have fallen asleep. ⁷ Then he appeared to James, then to all the apostles. ⁸ Last of all, as to one untimely born, he appeared also to me. ⁹ For I am the least of the apostles, unworthy to be called an apostle, because I persecuted the church of God. ¹⁰ But by the grace of God I am what I am, and his grace toward me was not in vain. On the contrary, I worked harder than any of them, though it was not I, but the grace of God that is with me. ¹¹ Whether then it was I or they, so we preach and so you believed.

The Gospel is the Good News about Jesus- including Jesus dying for our sins, His burial and resurrection.

Jesus foretold of His death, burial and resurrection in the Bible. The Gospels confirm Paul's words. For the most part, they do not confirm what is said of Jesus in the Quran.

Edited by TG12345 - 21 January 2013 at 7:45pm]]> Mon, 21 Jan 2013 19:44:37 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24591&PID=173130#173130 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24591&PID=173112#173112 Author: Placid
Subject: 24591
Posted: 21 January 2013 at 2:07pm

Hi TG and others,

Quoted from one of your posts:
Deuteronomy 18:15 “The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your brothers—it is to him you shall listen—
16 just as you desired of the Lord your God at Horeb on the day of the assembly, when you said, ‘Let me not hear again the voice of the Lord my God or see this great fire any more, lest I die.’
17 And the Lord said to me, ‘They are right in what they have spoken.
18 I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers. And I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him.
19 And whoever will not listen to my words that he shall speak in my name, I myself will require it of him

Response: --- While there are some similarities between Moses and Muhammad in their calling, and them sacrificing themselves in their dedication to God’s work,--- these verses definitely refer to Jesus.

--- The crowd compared Jesus to Moses, --- in the miracle of Moses having given them ‘manna’ from heaven, --- to the miracle of Jesus feeding the 5000 on the hillside,--- and it says this in John 6:
14 Then those men, when they had seen the sign that Jesus did, said, “This is truly the Prophet who is to come into the world.”

And at Jesus baptism in Matthew 3:
16 When He had been baptized, Jesus came up immediately from the water; and behold, the heavens were opened to Him, and He saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove and alighting upon Him.
17 And suddenly a voice came from heaven, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.”

On the mount of transfiguration in Matthew 17:
1 Now after six days Jesus took Peter, James, and John his brother, led them up on a high mountain by themselves;
2 and He was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and His clothes became as white as the light.
3 And behold, Moses and Elijah appeared to them, talking with Him.
5 Behold, a bright cloud overshadowed them; and suddenly a voice came out of the cloud, saying, “This is My beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased. Hear Him!”

And, after Jesus had ascended to the right hand of God, and the Holy Spirit had come, in Acts 3:
22 (Peter is speaking) --- For Moses truly said to the fathers, ‘The Lord your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your brethren. Him you shall hear in all things, whatever He says to you.
23 And it shall be that every soul who will not hear that Prophet shall be utterly destroyed from among the people.’
24 Yes, and all the prophets, from Samuel and those who follow, as many as have spoken, have also foretold these days.
25 You are sons of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying to Abraham, ‘And in your seed all the families of the earth shall be blessed.’
26 To you first, God, having raised up His Servant Jesus, sent Him to bless you, in turning away every one of you from your iniquities.”

And concerning Jesus speaking the words that God put in His mouth, it says this in John 17:
8 For I have given to them the words which You have given Me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came forth from You; and they have believed that You sent Me.


Placid

]]> Mon, 21 Jan 2013 14:07:51 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24591&PID=173112#173112 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24591&PID=173103#173103 Author: honeto
Subject: 24591
Posted: 21 January 2013 at 10:11am

Originally posted by TG12345

Originally posted by honeto

Originally posted by TG12345

Originally posted by Abu Loren



As'alaamu Alaikkum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuhu

 

Good news for Christians and Jews.

 

<div ="hadith_narrated"="">Abu Burdah bin Abi Musa narrated from his father that the Messenger of Allah said:

<div ="text_details"="">                      "Three will receive their reward twice: A slave who fulfills the rights of Allah and the rights of his owners, then he will be given his reward twice. And a man who has a beautiful slave girl, so he teaches her good manners, then he frees her, then he married her seeking the Face of Allah by that; then he will be given his reward twice.

Salaam Alaikum.Do you believe this applies to Christians and Jews today, or during Muhammad's time only?Also, what does the term "believe in" the earlier Book and "believe in" another Book mean? I would assume that means reading it and believing in what it says, am I right?

My two or so cents!

Answering your first question:
Yes it does. The Quran and the Prophet(pbuh) are valid till the end times.
The last line of the Hadith Abu Loren has written is very simple. If you believe in a book from God before, and believe the Quran to be from God, it is those whose reward will be doubled.
There were many who fit this category when the Quran was revealed and they accepted it to be from God, and became Muslim.
I personally believe that yes it applies to all of the people of the book that followed it's (Quran's) revelation. I say that on the basis of this understanding that once they accept the Quran, they enter light and guidance that also shows them that what they believed to be from God was indeed from God, just not in it's purity.
So as a reward for their test of faith, they are rewarded twice!
Hasan

Salaam Alaikum Hasan,Thank you for your answer. I will ask you the same question I asked of Abu Loren.What evidence is there that Christians, before they met Muhammad and had the Quran come to them, believed in or even stated there was such a thing as the Injil (which would be the 'previous Book' for Christians if I am not mistaken)? According to the hadith:And a man who believed in an earlier Book, then another Book
came to him and he believed in it; then he will be given his reward
twice." It is pretty clear from the text that the Christians rewarded twice first believed in an earlier Book, and then the Quran came to them and they believed in it.I have yet to find evidence outside the Quran and hadiths that Christians ever believed in a book like the Injil, which the Quran describes as a Scripture that was given to Jesus.If you have any evidence of the belief in the existence of a Book revealed to Jesus by God from Christians or other non-Muslims around or prior to the time of Muhammad, please show me.Allahu Akhbar.

TG12345,
sorry, I have been busy so could not reply soon, but here is my response and answer to your question.
First of all for me and any believer, the Quran being the Final word of God and the most authentic source with us today says so. So for a believer like myself there it is clear, what it says what it is. For those of you that needs other proves out side the authentic word of God, I have previously mentioned that what we have of the Injeel, you call the NT or the Bible, there are verses that clearly show the existence of the Gospel, the one that Jesus went around preaching! Whatever Jesus was revealed to preach is the Gospel or Injeel.
Here are a couple of those verses for you:
Mark 1:14
"Now after that John was put in prison, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the GOSPEL of the kingdom of God,"
Matthew 9:35
"And Jesus went about all the cities and villages, teaching in their synagogues, and preaching the GOSPEL of the kingdom, and healing every sickness and every disease among the people."

And people other than Jesus also are recorded to have preached the same:
Luke 9:6 And they (the twelve disciples) departed, and went through the towns, preaching the GOSPEL, and healing every where.

Hasan]]> Mon, 21 Jan 2013 10:11:01 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24591&PID=173103#173103 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24591&PID=173056#173056 Author: TG12345
Subject: 24591
Posted: 20 January 2013 at 1:10pm

Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

WaAlaikum,

Peace be upon you as well.

Originally posted by TG12345


If you will notice, the only hadiths I cite are from Bukhari and Muslim. MostMuslims consider them to be an accurate description of what Muhammad said.

Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

However hadith are not divine and will contain mistakes whether they areunchanged or not.

I understand there is a substantial difference between the Quran and hadiths. Islam teaches the Quran was revealed by God to Muhammad through Gabriel, while the hadiths are his teachings that God revealed to him but are not part of the Quran.

However, as we both know the Quran tells its followers to defer to Muhammad for decisions. People can't have any real faith until their souls make no resistance to Muhammad's decisions and accept them with fullest conviction.

4:65

But no, by the Lord, they can have no (real) Faith, until they make thee judge in all disputes between them, and find in their souls no resistance against Thy decisions, but accept them with the fullest conviction.

Muslims are called to obey God and to obey Muhammad, according to the Quran. He preaches the clear message. This verse also says this duty was placed on him by God.

24:54

Say: "Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger: but if ye turn away, he is only responsible for the duty placed on him and ye for that placed on you. If ye obey him, ye shall be on right guidance. The Messenger's duty is only to preach the clear (Message).

If authentic hadith (like Bukhari and Muslim, as you will notice I am not quoting Abu Dawud or others that some see as suspect) contain mistakes, aren't you saying that the clear message God gave him is full of mistakes?

If I am wrong in any of this (ie that God does not tell people that what Muhammad told them is from Him and it must be followed if one is to follow God as these ayahs say) please correct me.

Originally posted by TG12345


If the Torah and Gospel are books that have been lost, yet parts of them remainin certain scriptures, which scriptures was Muhammad referring to? Whichscriptures that Christians and Jews read in the time of Muhammad containanything about Muhammad? You used the word "Bible verses". Do youbelieve that the Bible is a corrupted version of the Injil and Torah? If thatis the case, where in the Bible (New Testament or Old Testament) is anything saidabout Muhammad?

Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

Deuteronomy 18:18

KingJames Version (KJV)

I willraise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will putmy words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall commandhim.

Brethrenimmediately suggests Edomites, Moabites, Ammonites, Midianites or Ishmaelites. Later translations say amongIsrael but how did brethren transform into Israel? Unless the actual hebrewword is Y'srael for both.

Thanks for bringing this up. Let's examine Deuteronomy 18:18 in the context of the chapter. As you will surely agree, it is important to read texts in the proper context... when this doesn't happen you have Christians who make errors about the Quran and Muslims who make errors about the Bible.

Deuteronomy 18

18 “The Levitical priests, all the tribe of Levi, shall have no portion or inheritance with Israel. They shall eat the Lord's food offeringsa]">[a] as theirb]">[b] inheritance. ² They shall have no inheritance among their brothers; the Lord is their inheritance, as he promised them. ³ And this shall be the priests' due from the people, from those offering a sacrifice, whether an ox or a sheep: they shall give to the priest the shoulder and the two cheeks and the stomach. ⁴ The firstfruits of your grain, of your wine and of your oil, and the first fleece of your sheep, you shall give him. ⁵ For the Lord your God has chosen him out of all your tribes to stand and minister in the name of the Lord, him and his sons for all time.

⁶ “And if a Levite comes from any of your towns out of all Israel, where he lives—and he may come when he desiresc]">[c]—to the place that the Lord will choose, ⁷ and ministers in the name of the Lord his God, like all his fellow Levites who stand to minister there before the Lord, ⁸ then he may have equal portions to eat, besides what he receives from the sale of his patrimony.d]">[d]

Abominable Practices

⁹ “When you come into the land that the Lord your God is giving you, you shall not learn to follow the abominable practices of those nations. ¹⁰ There shall not be found among you anyone who burns his son or his daughter as an offering,e]">[e] anyone who practices divination or tells fortunes or interprets omens, or a sorcerer ¹¹ or a charmer or a medium or a necromancer or one who inquires of the dead, ¹² for whoever does these things is an abomination to the Lord. And because of these abominations the Lord your God is driving them out before you. ¹³ You shall be blameless before the Lord your God, ¹⁴ for these nations, which you are about to dispossess, listen to fortune-tellers and to diviners. But as for you, the Lord your God has not allowed you to do this.

A New Prophet like Moses

¹⁵ “The Lord your God will raise up for you a prophet like me from among you, from your brothers—it is to him you shall listen— ¹⁶ just as you desired of the Lord your God at Horeb on the day of the assembly, when you said, ‘Let me not hear again the voice of the Lord my God or see this great fire any more, lest I die.’ ¹⁷ And the Lord said to me, ‘They are right in what they have spoken. ¹⁸ I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their brothers. And I will put my words in his mouth, and he shall speak to them all that I command him. ¹⁹ And whoever will not listen to my words that he shall speak in my name, I myself will require it of him. ²⁰ But the prophet who presumes to speak a word in my name that I have not commanded him to speak, orf]">[f] who speaks in the name of other gods, that same prophet shall die.’ ²¹ And if you say in your heart, ‘How may we know the word that the Lord has not spoken?’— ²² when a prophet speaks in the name of the Lord, if the word does not come to pass or come true, that is a word that the Lord has not spoken; the prophet has spoken it presumptuously. You need not be afraid of him.

As we can see from the text (in its entirety), the word "brothers" was used for the Israelites. God promised the Israelites to raise a prophet from among them, from their brothers. (Deuteronomy 18:15).

Deuteronomy 17:14,15 forbids Israelites from letting a foreigner rule over them, who would not be from among their brothers.

Deuteronomy 17:14,15

¹⁴ “When you come to the land that the Lord your God is giving you, and you possess it and dwell in it and then say, ‘I will set a king over me, like all the nations that are around me,’ ¹⁵ you may indeed set a king over you whom the Lord your God will choose. One from among your brothers you shall set as king over you. You may not put a foreigner over you, who is not your brother.

For Muhammad to have matched the description in Deuteronomy, he would have had to been an Israelite. There is no word to insert "Israelite" into the text... when read in its context it is clear that "brothers" referred to other Israelites, not non-Israelites.

Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

Muhammadalso performed miracles like Moses such as the splitting of the moon.
Deuteronomy 34:10

KingJames Version (KJV)

¹⁰ And there arose not a prophetsince in Israel like unto Moses, whom the Lord knew face to face,

I know that the Quran teaches that Muhammad did miracles, according to the Bible so did Jesus and also His followers. Unlike Jesus and many of His followers (and other prophets in the Old Testament), Muhammad was not an Israelite.

There is nothing wrong with non-Jews, but the prophecy in Deuteronomy 18 could not have been about him.

Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

In thenight of Isra and Miraj Muhammad spoke to Allah himself about the prayers.

I am aware Islam teaches this, thanks for sharing. However, what we are debating is whether the Torah and Injil (or remnants of them as Muslims believe that what we have are changed copies of the original) contain descriptions of Muhammad. When read it its entirety, the Book of Deuteronomy is clearly not describing Muhammad or any other non-Israelite prophet.

Also, is Deuteronomy considered by Muslims to be part of the Injil? Where in the New Testament is Muhammad mentioned?

Originally posted by TG12345


Also, where does the Quran say Christians changed their Scriptures? I know IbnAbbas said this, he also said in his tafsirs that Christians and Jews have theInjil and Torah with them. He was obviously contradicting himself. Did Muhammador the author of the Quran who you believe to be God say that? Thanks.

Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

Can ye (o ye men of Faith) entertain the hope that they will believe inyou?- Seeing that a party of them heard the Word of Allah, and perverted itknowingly after they understood it… Then woe to those who write the Book with theirown hands, and then say:"This is from Allah," to traffic with it formiserable price!- Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gainthey make thereby. (Quran 2:75,79) 

Thanks for sharing this, 786Salaam Khan. Are you aware of the fact that this passage is about Jews, and not Christians?

According to tafsir Ibn Abbas:

(Have ye any hope that they will be true to you) do you hope, O Muhammad, that the Jews will believe in you (when a party of them) the 70 men who were with Moses (used to listen to the Word of Allah) used to listen to Moses reciting the Word of Allah, (then used to change it) alter it, (after they had understood it) after knowing it and fully understanding it (knowingly?) while knowing that they were altering it?

http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=73&tSoraNo=2&tAyahNo=75&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2

The alterations that the Jews were charged with are of changing the description of Muhammad in the Torah... yet in the same Quran the Jews are told to look to the Torah to find Muhammad mentioned there!

(Therefore woe) severe punishment, and it is said this means: a valley in hell (be unto those who write the Scripture with their hands) change the description and traits of Muhammad (pbuh) in the Book (and then say, “This is) in the Book that has come (from Allah”, that they may purchase) through changing and altering it (a small gain therewith) a small gain in terms of means of subsistence and surplus of property. (Woe unto them) theirs is a severe punishment (for what their hands have written) have altered (and woe unto them) and theirs is a severe punishment (for what they earn thereby) of unlawful earnings and bribes.

http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=73&tSoraNo=2&tAyahNo=79&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2

Tafsir Ibn Jalalayn says the same thing more or less.

Also, the charge of writing Scripture with their hands is made to Jews in Muhammad's time... which would indicate they were the ones who changed the text. The 70 Jews in the time of Moses allegedly would alter the word they heard recited to them, but there is no mention of them changing the Scripture. That allegation was made against Jews in the time of Muhammad. 

Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

There is among them a section who distort the Book with their tongues:(As they read) you would think it is a part of the Book, but it is no part ofthe Book; and they say, "That is from Allah," but it is not fromAllah: It is they who tell a lie against Allah, and (well) they know it! (Quran3:78)

3:78 is also not a reference to Christians, but to Jews in the time of Muhammad.

(And Lo! there is) of the Jews (a party of them) Ka'b and his fellow men (who distort the Scripture with their tongues) by reading the traits of the anti-Christ in their Scripture, (that ye may think) that the lowly may think (that what they say is from the Scripture, when it is not from the Scripture. And they say: It is from Allah) in the Torah, (when it is not from Allah) in the Torah; (and they speak a lie concerning Allah knowingly) fully aware that this is not in their Scripture.

http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=73&tSoraNo=3&tAyahNo=78&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2

They are accused not of changing the text, but from misreading it to alter what the Torah really says. Notice they are fully aware that what they read is not in their Torah... so that would indicate quite clearly that the Torah was around in its true form up to the time of Muhammad and it was misread by some Jews who knew what it really said and were twisting it anyways.

Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

And remember Allah took a covenant from the Peopleof the Book, to make it known and clear to mankind, and not to hide it; butthey threw it away behind their backs, and purchased with it some miserablegain! And vile was the bargain they made! (Quran 3:187)

3:187 does refer to Christians and Jews according to Ibn Abbas, and Jews only according to Ibn Jalalayn.

According to Ibn Abbas, the Christians and Jews hid the traits and descriptions of Muhammad in their Scriptures.

Then Allah mentioned His covenant with the people of the Book in the Scripture, which required them to exposit the traits and description of His Prophet, saying: (And (remember) when Allah laid a charge on those who had received the Scripture) i.e. the Torah and the Gospel ((He said): Ye are to expound it) the trait and description of Muhammad (to mankind and not to hide it) not to hide these traits and description of Muhammad in their Scripture. (But they flung it behind their backs) and did not act upon it (and bought thereby a little gain) a paltry acquisition in their means of living by hiding the traits and description of Muhammad in their Scripture. (Verily evil is that which they have gained thereby) evil is that which they have chosen for themselves: Judaism and the concealment of the traits and description of Muhammad.

http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=73&tSoraNo=3&tAyahNo=187&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2

If this verse applies to Christians and the Injil, then Christians were ordered to proclaim to mankind the traits and descriptions of Muhammad in their text, but instead they hid it and did not act upon it. If the traits and descriptions of Muhammad were hidden in the Gospel by the Christians, then how is it possible that God would tell Christians to look for these same things therein? Were they hidden from the Gospel, or were they not?

According to tafsir Ibn Jalalayn, the verse is a reference to the Jews.

And, mention, when God made covenant with those who had been given the Scripture, that is, the pledge [taken] from them in the Torah, ‘You shall expound it (read tubayyinunnahu, or yubayyinunnahu, ‘they shall expound it’) the Book, to people, and not conceal it’ (read taktumūnahu, ‘you shall not conceal it’, or yaktumūnahu, ‘they shall not conceal it’). But they rejected it, they discarded the covenant, behind their backs, and so they did not act in accordance with it, and bought with it, they took in its place, a small price, of this world from the debased among them, enjoying supremacy over them in knowledge, and they concealed it, lest it [the supremacy] escape them; how evil is what they have bought, [how evil is] this purchase of theirs!

Originally posted by TG12345


He did. I don't see the point you are getting at though.

Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

You asked why Allah would allow falsehoods to be written and I said because offree will. Waraqa was no Prophet and he didn't have any direct or spiritualcontact with G-d, just influence.

What do you mean by "influence"?

If Ibn Waraqa had no direct or spiritual contact with God, how could he have known that Gabriel was the angel who Muhammad spoke to?

Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

No disrespect but to be honest I can't even be bothered to reply to the rest or reply anymore. I'm not gonna convince you and you're not gonna convince me. I'm not a good debater, usually when I have a religious debate with either muslim or non muslim it leads to nowhere or the other person ends up insulting, cursing or attacking me personally. What's the point? I've been a better questioner than a answerer.

Life is really simple, but men insist on making it complicated.- Confucius

No disrespect taken, 786SalaamKhan. I think these are important things to look at and debate, and hopefully the truth will come out of such discussions. If you want to not engage in them anymore, I have nothing against you.

I can assure you though that regardless of whether this discussion/debate would have continued or not, I would never curse, attack or insult you. My faith in Christ does not allow me to do that.

Salaam.
]]> Sun, 20 Jan 2013 13:10:24 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24591&PID=173056#173056 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24591&PID=173049#173049 Author: 786SalamKhan
Subject: 24591
Posted: 20 January 2013 at 7:23am

WaAlaikum,

Originally posted by TG12345



If you will notice, the only hadiths I cite are from Bukhari and Muslim. MostMuslims consider them to be an accurate description of what Muhammad said.

However hadith are not divine and will contain mistakes whether they areunchanged or not.

Originally posted by TG12345


If the Torah and Gospel are books that have been lost, yet parts of them remainin certain scriptures, which scriptures was Muhammad referring to? Whichscriptures that Christians and Jews read in the time of Muhammad containanything about Muhammad? You used the word "Bible verses". Do youbelieve that the Bible is a corrupted version of the Injil and Torah? If thatis the case, where in the Bible (New Testament or Old Testament) is anything saidabout Muhammad?

Deuteronomy 18:18

KingJames Version (KJV)

I willraise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will putmy words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall commandhim.

Brethrenimmediately suggests Edomites, Moabites, Ammonites, Midianites or Ishmaelites. Later translations say amongIsrael but how did brethren transform into Israel? Unless the actual hebrewword is Y'srael for both.

Muhammadalso performed miracles like Moses such as the splitting of the moon.

Deuteronomy 34:10

KingJames Version (KJV)

¹⁰ And there arose not a prophetsince in Israel like unto Moses, whom the Lord knew face to face,

In thenight of Isra and Miraj Muhammad spoke to Allah himself about the prayers.

Originally posted by TG12345


Also, where does the Quran say Christians changed their Scriptures? I know IbnAbbas said this, he also said in his tafsirs that Christians and Jews have theInjil and Torah with them. He was obviously contradicting himself. Did Muhammador the author of the Quran who you believe to be God say that? Thanks.

Can ye (o ye men of Faith) entertain the hope that they will believe inyou?- Seeing that a party of them heard the Word of Allah, and perverted itknowingly after they understood it… Then woe to those who write the Book with theirown hands, and then say:"This is from Allah," to traffic with it formiserable price!- Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gainthey make thereby. (Quran 2:75,79)

 

There is among them a section who distort the Book with their tongues:(As they read) you would think it is a part of the Book, but it is no part ofthe Book; and they say, "That is from Allah," but it is not fromAllah: It is they who tell a lie against Allah, and (well) they know it! (Quran3:78)

 

And remember Allah took a covenant from the Peopleof the Book, to make it known and clear to mankind, and not to hide it; butthey threw it away behind their backs, and purchased with it some miserablegain! And vile was the bargain they made! (Quran 3:187)

Originally posted by TG12345


He did. I don't see the point you are getting at though.

You asked why Allah would allow falsehoods to be written and I said because offree will. Waraqa was no Prophet and he didn't have any direct or spiritualcontact with G-d, just influence.

No disrespect but to be honest I can't even be bothered to reply to the rest or reply anymore. I'm not gonna convince you and you're not gonna convince me. I'm not a good debater, usually when I have a religious debate with either muslim or non muslim it leads to nowhere or the other person ends up insulting, cursing or attacking me personally. What's the point? I've been a better questioner than a answerer.

Life is really simple, but men insist on making it complicated.- Confucius

Edited by 786SalamKhan - 20 January 2013 at 10:56am]]> Sun, 20 Jan 2013 07:23:11 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24591&PID=173049#173049 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24591&PID=172988#172988 Author: TG12345
Subject: 24591
Posted: 18 January 2013 at 9:25pm

Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

Wa Alaikum,

Hadith like majority of the New Testament, Majority of the Tanakh and the Talmud isn't divine. It will obviously conflict and contradict itself in some places, many hadith are fabricated but not all are.

Alaikum Salaam, 786SalaamKhan.

If you will notice, the only hadiths I cite are from Bukhari and Muslim. Most Muslims consider them to be an accurate description of what Muhammad said.

3 - Sahih Al-Bukhari

Imam Bukhari had written several books, but his most distinguished work was this compilation of ahadith book titled as ‘ al Jaama’e al Sahih Al Musnad min Hadith Rasool Allah sws wa Sunnahi wa Ayyamihi’. Imam Bukhari was inspired by his most beloved teacher Imam Ishaq ibn Rahwayh (161 – 238 H, was muhaddith, faqih, and the Imam of Khurasan of his time) to compile a book that contains only Sahih ahadith. In this book Imam Bukhari collected only those ahadith that fulfilled all the criterion of soundness and reliability of ‘isnad’ and ‘matan’.

 

From the collected ahadith, Imam Bukhar had inferred the biography of Rasool Allah sws and the principles of ‘fiqh’ (jurisprudence). This book is divided into 97 chapters, that are further subdivided into 3450 chapters. In all this book contains 7275 ahadith. If the repeated ahadith are omitted then the number falls down to 4000 only.

 

Uncountable commentaries and ‘Sharuh’ (explanations) have been written for this ‘Sahih al-Bukari’, the most prominent one is that of Hafiz ibn Hajar Assqalani, titled as ‘ Fath al-Bari’.

 

4 - Sahih Muslim

It is the second most authentic hadith collection after Sahih Al-Bukhari, and is highly acclaimed book. Out of 300,000 hadith which he evaluated, approximately 4,000 were extracted for inclusion into his collection based on stringent acceptance criteria. Each report in his collection was checked and the veracity of the chain of reporters was painstakingly established. Muslim is divided into 43 books,containing a total of 7190 narrations. It is estimated that there are a total of 4000 hadiths (without repetition) in Sahih Muslim.

 

In this ‘Sahih’ Imam Muslim collected those ahadith which are narrated by at least two narrators of all the periods right from him to that of the Prophet sws. For Imam Muslim all the narrators should not only be honest but he hould fulfill all the conditions of being a witness. In this book 218 ‘Sahaaba’ (companions) are included as narrators, whereas in Sahih al-Bukhari this number is 208.

 

A large number of commentaries and ‘Sharuh’ (explanations) have been written for Sahih Muslim. These include Al-Dibaj ela Sahih Muslim by Imam Jalaluddin Sauti or Sharah Muslim by Mulla Ali Qari.

 

The creditability of this Sahih can be judged by the opinion of some of the scholars who rate this book over Sahih Bukhari.

http://www.studying-islam.org/articletext.aspx?id=1325
 

Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

Again not all of the Torah and the Gospels are corrupted which is why the Quran says to look in the scriptures for the unlettered Prophet. The Quran also criticizes Christians for believing the Trinity and the Divine Sonship of Jesus but we know that not all christians believe these things. Most of the time anything that contradicts the Quran is false so 'Do not believe the people of the Book, nor disbelievethem' probably refers to Bible verses that do not contradict the Quran but are also not mentioned in the Quran.

If the Torah and Gospel are books that have been lost, yet parts of them remain in certain scriptures, which scriptures was Muhammad referring to? Which scriptures that Christians and Jews read in the time of Muhammad contain anything about Muhammad? You used the word "Bible verses". Do you believe that the Bible is a corrupted version of the Injil and Torah? If that is the case, where in the Bible (New Testament or Old Testament) is anything said about Muhammad?

The Bible clearly says that Jesus is divine and that He is the Son of God. The teaching of the Trinity is derived from the fact that the Bible teaches that Jesus, the Father and the Holy Spirit are God.

Also, where does the Quran say Christians changed their Scriptures? I know Ibn Abbas said this, he also said in his tafsirs that Christians and Jews have the Injil and Torah with them. He was obviously contradicting himself. Did Muhammad or the author of the Quran who you believe to be God say that? Thanks.

Is there an authentic hadith that says that the Scriptures that Christians have contain traces of the Torah and Injil, as many Muslims claim?

Again, if the Gospel was lost at the time of Muhammad and there were only copies with half truths, it makes no sense for God to have instructed Waraqa to be translating them.

The charge against the Jews who changed the Torah was thrown against the Jews of the time of Muhammad, as the tafsir of Ibn Abbas shows. Is there evidence of changes to the Torah in the 7th century?

Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

We both worship G-d yet why is he allowing us to continue in this discussion? Same with Waraqa. Allah gave us free will.

He did. I don't see the point you are getting at though.

Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

Fair enough the New Testament does claim enough evidence for christians to believe in the Trinity. But anytime Jesus would pray who exactly is he worshiping or praying to? Himself?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5upXp-8xHAY

The video made me laugh at some points, I have to admit. The speaker offered $5000 to anyone who could find Jesus saying He is God in the Bible.

He said very clearly that those who have seen Him have seen the Father. Did Muhammad ever say that those who have seen him have seen Allah? Or did Adam or Moses or Abraham, in either the Bible or Quran ever say that? Of course not!

Jesus was God in the flesh.

The speaker can keep his money, but he should read the Bible better before he talks about what it says on tv. :)

John 14:1-14

14 “Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God;a]">[a] believe also in me. ² In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you?b]">[b] ³ And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also. ⁴ And you know the way to where I am going.”c]">[c] ⁵ Thomas said to him, “Lord, we do not know where you are going. How can we know the way?” ⁶ Jesus said to him, “I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. ⁷ If you had known me, you would have known my Father also.d]">[d] From now on you do know him and have seen him.”

⁸ Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.” ⁹ Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? ¹⁰ Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works. ¹¹ Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else believe on account of the works themselves.

¹² “Truly, truly, I say to you, whoever believes in me will also do the works that I do; and greater works than these will he do, because I am going to the Father. ¹³ Whatever you ask in my name, this I will do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. ¹⁴ If you ask mee]">[e] anything in my name, I will do it.

Jesus voluntarily made Himself inferior to the Father, though He was in the form of God. So He prayed to the Father.

Why did He do this? On earth, He was both man and God. As man He prayed to God. He also set a good example for Christians.

Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

Well there is no known evidence for me or other muslims to provide about the Injil, but it's a good thing this is the InterFAITH section.

True, but if I came to you and said that the Quran you have today is not the real Quran but earlier on there was a book called the "Message" whose message was lost but traces of it can be found in what you refer to as the Quran, you would probably demand evidence right? ;)

Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

There is not much known evidence for what both our religions claim such as Adam and Noah(PBUT) but we still believe.

True, but there was little to no traces of books existing back then. That is not the case with early Christianity and early Islam.

 

Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

Now It's known in the New Testament and the Talmud that Jesus(PBUH) was a Galilean or Nazarean Jew who taught things to others which were unknown or foreign to the Rabbis etc. Is this not proof of a new law? The Injil perhaps? Again, Allah knows best.

Jesus did not come to change the Law but to fulfill it. He explained its meaning and revealed the full truth. He exposed the hypocrisy of the religious leadership at that time and explained the truth to those really looking for it. However, He did not at any time receive a book and there is no evidence whatsoever of such a book existing.

Also, there is historical proof for the crucifixion of Jesus, from both Christian and non-Christian sources.

Jesus' crucifixion was recorded by the Roman historian Tacitus, who although is widely respected for the accuracy of his works, was also very anti-Christian and would not have been influenced by the early church.

But not all the relief that could come from man, not all the Bounties that the prince could bestow, nor all the atonements Which could be presented to the gods, availed to relieve Nero From the infamy of being believed to have ordered the Conflagration, the fire of Rome. Hence to suppress the rumor, he Falsely charged with the guilt, and punished Christians, who were Hated for their enormities. Christus, the founder of the name, was Put to death by Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judea in the reign Of Tiberius: but the pernicious superstition, repressed for a time Broke out again, not only through Judea, where the mischief Originated, but through the city of Rome also, where all things Hideous and shameful from every part of the world find their Center and become popular. Accordingly, an arrest was first Made of all who pleaded guilty; then, upon their information, an Immense multitude was convicted, not so much of the crime of Firing the city, as of hatred against mankind.

http://www.tektonics.org/jesusexist/tacitus.html

There is no evidence however for a book called the Injil ever existing.
[/QUOTE]

Edited by TG12345 - 18 January 2013 at 9:42pm]]> Fri, 18 Jan 2013 21:25:51 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24591&PID=172988#172988 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24591&PID=172943#172943 Author: 786SalamKhan
Subject: 24591
Posted: 18 January 2013 at 3:39am

Wa Alaikum,

Hadith like majority of the New Testament, Majority of the Tanakh and the Talmud isn't divine. It will obviously conflict and contradict itself in some places, many hadith are fabricated but not all are.

Again not all of the Torah and the Gospels are corrupted which is why the Quran says to look in the scriptures for the unlettered Prophet. The Quran also criticizes Christians for believing the Trinity and the Divine Sonship of Jesus but we know that not all christians believe these things. Most of the time anything that contradicts the Quran is false so 'Do not believe the people of the Book, nor disbelievethem' probably refers to Bible verses that do not contradict the Quran but are also not mentioned in the Quran.

We both worship G-d yet why is he allowing us to continue in this discussion? Same with Waraqa. Allah gave us free will. Fair enough the New Testament does claim enough evidence for christians to believe in the Trinity. But anytime Jesus would pray who exactly is he worshiping or praying to? Himself?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5upXp-8xHAY

Well there is no known evidence for me or other muslims to provide about the Injil, but it's a good thing this is the InterFAITH section. There is not much known evidence for what both our religions claim such as Adam and Noah(PBUT) but we still believe. Now It's known in the New Testament and the Talmud that Jesus(PBUH) was a Galilean or Nazarean Jew who taught things to others which were unknown or foreign to the Rabbis etc. Is this not proof of a new law? The Injil perhaps? Again, Allah knows best.



Edited by 786SalamKhan - 18 January 2013 at 3:42am]]> Fri, 18 Jan 2013 03:39:47 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24591&PID=172943#172943 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24591&PID=172857#172857 Author: TG12345
Subject: 24591
Posted: 16 January 2013 at 7:50pm

Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

Wa Alaikum, I am fine thank you I hope you are doing well also.

Salaam Alaikum. Shukran, ana tamaam. InshAllah anta tamaam aydan.

Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

Narrated Ubaidullah:  "Ibn 'Abbas said, 'Why do you askthe people of the scripture about anything while your Book (Quran) which has been revealedto Allah's Apostle is newer and the latest? You read it pure, undistorted and unchanged, andAllah has told you that the people of the scripture (Jews and Christians) changed theirscripture and distorted it, and wrote the scripture with their own hands and said, 'It isfrom Allah,' to sell it for a little gain. Does not the knowledge which has cometo you prevent you from asking them about anything? No, by Allah, we have never seen anyman from them asking you regarding what has been revealed to you!'  (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Holding Fast to the Qur'an and Sunnah,Volume 9, Book 92, Number 461)"  

I can see that this states that according to Muhammad the Jews and Christians corrupted their scriptures, and I can see why Muslims would claim Islam teaches this.

I think that this is a contradiction of ayahs which call Christians and Jews to find Muhammad in the Gospel and Torah and of the hadith about Waraqa.

This may be an inconsequential observation, but notice that the bit about Jews and Christians corrupting their scriptures in the hadith you cited was stated not by Muhammad, but Ibn Abbas.

Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

Narrated Abu Huraira:  "The people of the Book used toread the Torah in Hebrew and then explain it in Arabic to the Muslims. Allah's Apostlesaid (to the Muslims). 'Do not believe the people of the Book, nor disbelievethem, but say, 'We believe in Allah and whatever is revealed to us, and whateveris revealed to you.' '  (Translation of Sahih Bukhari,Holding Fast to the Qur'an and Sunnah, Volume 9, Book 92, Number 460)" 

I find this hadith to be very interesting. If the people of the Book are believing false things about God, why would they not be disbelieved?

Also if the Torah was corrupted, how could the people of the Book be reading it to the Arabs?

Interestingly, Muhammad was cited as saying:

 'We believe in Allah and whatever is revealed to us, and whateveris revealed to you.'

What did the Jews have at the time of Muhammad that God revealed to them? I think this is a reference to the Torah they were reading to the Muslims, whom Muhammad told to neither believe or disbelieve the Jews.

If the Torah that the Jews were reading were what God revealed to them, how could it be corrupt?

Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

According to Islam, Allah Almighty (GOD Almighty) in the Bible promised those who tryto tamper His Words in the Bible to face hell fire, because He knew that it was going tohappen.   He gave the people of the book (Jews and Christians) a chance/test and theysimply blew it!.Look at Noble Verse 5:13 from the Noble Quran: "But on account of their breaking their covenant We cursed them (Jewsand Christians) and made their hearts hard; they altered the words from theirplaces and they neglected a portion of what they were reminded of; and youshall always discover treachery in them excepting a few of them; so pardon them and turnaway; surely Allah loves those who do good (to others)."

Thanks for sharing that verse. Let's look at what Ibn Abbas had to say about it.

Allah then explained the punishment of those who had disbelieved, saying: (And because of their) i.e. the kings (breaking their covenant, We have cursed them) We punished them through imposing the capitation tax upon them (and made hard) and lightless (their hearts. They change words from their context) they change the traits and description of Muhammad (pbuh) and the legal ruling on stoning [married people who fornicate] after this was exposited upon in the Torah (and forget a part) and leave part (of that whereof they were admonished) they were commanded with in the Torah concerning their following of Muhammad (pbuh) and manifesting his traits and description to others. Allah then showed their betrayal of the Prophet (pbuh) saying: (Thou wilt not) O Muhammad (cease to discover treachery) and contravention (from all) i.e. the Banu Qurayzah (save a few of them) 'Abdullah Ibn Salam and his followers. (But bear with them) and punish them not (and pardon them) and leave them. (Lo! Allah loveth the kindly) towards others.

http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=73&tSoraNo=5&tAyahNo=13&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2

According to Ibn Abbas (who is quoted in the hadith about Christians and Jews corrupting their scriptures) , the Torah was corrupted by the Jews at the time of Muhammad. They changed the parts which allegedly talked about him and the ruling of stoning... although funnily enough that is in the Old Testament. They allegedly left what the Torah said about their command to follow Muhammad and tell others about him. These same Jews then betrayed Muhammad.

According to 5:13, the Jews who changed the Torah were the ones who betrayed Muhammad and refused to follow him.

This would imply that before their time, the Torah spoke of Muhammad and of stoning adulterers (which it still does).

Can you show me any copy of the Torah where Muhammad is mentioned?


Sorry for going off on a tangent, but this brings me to another question. If 5:13 is a reference to the textual corruption of the Torah and according to Ibn Abbas tafsir one of the things the Jews removed was the stoning verse, then what do you make of this?

(1) Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar: The Jews came to Allah's Apostle and told him that a man and a woman from amongst them had committed illegal sexual intercourse. Allah's Apostle said to them, "What do you find in the torah (old Testament) about the legal punishment of Ar-Rajm (stoning)?" They replied, (But) we announce their crime and lash them." Abdullah bin Salam said, "You are telling a lie; torah contains the order of Rajm." They brought and opened the torah and one of them solaced his hand on the Verse of Rajm and read the verses preceding and following it. Abdullah bin Salam said to him, "Lift your hand." When he lifted his hand, the Verse of Rajm was written there. They said, "Muhammad has told the truth; the torah has the Verse of Rajm. The Prophet then gave the order that both of them should be stoned to death. ('Abdullah bin 'Umar said, "I saw the man leaning over the woman to shelter her from the stones." 
(Book #56, Hadith #829)

http://www.searchtruth.com/searchHadith.php?keyword=torah+stoning&translator=1&search=1&book=&start=0&records_display=10&search_word=all

The verse was clearly in the Torah, Abdullah bin Salaam had the Jew uncover it, and there it was!

Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

It's not like there isn't some truth left in the previous scriptures.

However, the Quran verses and hadiths I brought up do not say that. They call on Christians and Jews to refer to the Injil and Torah. There is nothing to my knowledge saying to refer to corrupted books that contain some traces of them.

Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

Also I don't think Allah literally commanded Waraqa to write the Gospel, it could merely be narrated in that way because nothing happens without Allah's will.

He wrote as much as God wished him to write. If Waraqa was a follower of God would God have allowed him to translate falsehoods into Arabic?

Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

Also who else would Khadija go to for help in a Pagan Arabia when her husband told her that it was Gabriel that had visited him? And Allah knows best.

Good question. Another one is this- if Waraqa had been reading and copying down perversions of the Gospel, would he have had revelation about Muhammad's prophethood?

Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

And silly me, I never realized that variant of the book of James was available outside of that video but then again I didn't fully agree with the title of the video.

It's ok, we all make mistakes. That's what makes us us and makes God God. We mess up, He does not. Hopefully however as you can see it does not prove any evidence of a suppressed Gospel of Jesus.

Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

How does it mention the trinity if it says "In the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost"? If you had three people sitting together eating lunch would it mean they are one?

Notice that the Father, Son, Holy Spirit are identified as one. "in the name..."

In John 1, it is explicitly stated that Jesus (the Son) is God. Jesus was called God by Thomas, He also said that those who have seen Him have seen the Father, and said a variety of things to indicate He is God.

God is referred to as the Father in many places in the Bible.

The Holy Spirit is referred to as God. An example of this would be in the Book of Acts 5:3-4 where Peter rebukes Ananias for lying.

3 aBut Peter said, “Ananias, why has bSatan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and keep back part of the price of the land for yourself? 4 While it remained, was it not your own? And after it was sold, was it not in your own control? Why have you conceived this thing in your heart? You have not lied to men but to God.”

The Trinity teaching states that God exists as the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. One God, but in three persons (not 'people').

Jesus confirmed this in the Book of Matthew, and the Didache quotes Him as saying this.

Furthermore, notice that Jesus said "in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit".

The Quran does not call God the Father, and calling Jesus the Son of God is considered blasphemous if I am not mistaken.

Neither the Didache or Book of James confirm the documentary maker's point that Jesus' disciples somehow preached a message opposite to what is in the Bible, nor do they prove that a book called the Gospel of Jesus ever existed. They not only do not contradict the Bible but they actually contradict Islamic teachings in their theology.

Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

I knew that the Quran was written during Prophet Muhammad(PBUH)'s lifetime but I merely pointed out he didn't receive it in written.

Fair enough, but Islam teaches it is a Book. To the best of my understanding, it also teaches the Gospel is a Book. It tells Christians in Muhammad's time to refer to it and find him mentioned therein.

Originally posted by 786SalamKhan

And regarding Quran 3:7Allah points out that some verses need interpretation, I applied that to when it says that Jesus received a "book".

Do you have any proof that unlike the Torah and Quran, the Gospel that God according to the Quran revealed to Jesus was not a book?

According to Islamic Learning,

The only Gospel we are concerned with, is the Gospel of Jesus. But like many other Books of Allah, the actual text is no longer available.

http://islamiclearningmaterials.com/books-of-allah/

Originally posted by 786SalamKhan


The hadith in discussion I think means that Jews and Christians who become muslims will receive more rewards that any other non muslims who accept Islam. Again, Allah knows best.

If that is all it said, I wouldn't be writing these posts :-)

However, it clearly says that Christians and Jews who believed in a Book (the Injil or Torah) and then believed in another book (the Quran) will be rewarded more.

As I pointed out, outside of the Quran and hadiths, there is no evidence of a book called the Injil ever existing.

I'll be away from the forum probably until next week, I will read your response and be glad to answer it but it may take a few days.

Allahma3k.


Edited by TG12345 - 16 January 2013 at 8:05pm]]> Wed, 16 Jan 2013 19:50:40 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24591&PID=172857#172857 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24591&PID=172792#172792 Author: Webber
Subject: 24591
Posted: 16 January 2013 at 1:15am

I don't get it. If Moses followed the laws and so did his people they would have gone to heaven. If all the Prophets followed the same "injil" then following any one of them would land you in heaven, why only Muhammad? The Quran seems to have the least "plan of salvation" of all.

Which Muslim knows they will be saved for sure, anyone on this site?

]]> Wed, 16 Jan 2013 01:15:55 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24591&PID=172792#172792 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24591&PID=172754#172754 Author: 786SalamKhan
Subject: 24591
Posted: 15 January 2013 at 5:54am

Wa Alaikum, I am fine thank you I hope you are doing well also.

Narrated Ubaidullah:  "Ibn 'Abbas said, 'Why do you askthe people of the scripture about anything while your Book (Quran) which has been revealedto Allah's Apostle is newer and the latest? You read it pure, undistorted and unchanged, andAllah has told you that the people of the scripture (Jews and Christians) changed theirscripture and distorted it, and wrote the scripture with their own hands and said, 'It isfrom Allah,' to sell it for a little gain. Does not the knowledge which has cometo you prevent you from asking them about anything? No, by Allah, we have never seen anyman from them asking you regarding what has been revealed to you!'  (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Holding Fast to the Qur'an and Sunnah,Volume 9, Book 92, Number 461)" 

Narrated Abu Huraira:  "The people of the Book used toread the Torah in Hebrew and then explain it in Arabic to the Muslims. Allah's Apostlesaid (to the Muslims). 'Do not believe the people of the Book, nor disbelievethem, but say, 'We believe in Allah and whatever is revealed to us, and whateveris revealed to you.' '  (Translation of Sahih Bukhari,Holding Fast to the Qur'an and Sunnah, Volume 9, Book 92, Number 460)" 

According to Islam, Allah Almighty (GOD Almighty) in the Bible promised those who tryto tamper His Words in the Bible to face hell fire, because He knew that it was going tohappen.   He gave the people of the book (Jews and Christians) a chance/test and theysimply blew it!.Look at Noble Verse 5:13 from the Noble Quran: "But on account of their breaking their covenant We cursed them (Jewsand Christians) and made their hearts hard; they altered the words from theirplaces and they neglected a portion of what they were reminded of; and youshall always discover treachery in them excepting a few of them; so pardon them and turnaway; surely Allah loves those who do good (to others)."

It's not like there isn't some truth left in the previous scriptures. Also I don't think Allah literally commanded Waraqa to write the Gospel, it could merely be narrated in that way because nothing happens without Allah's will. Also who else would Khadija go to for help in a Pagan Arabia when her husband told her that it was Gabriel that had visited him? And Allah knows best.

And silly me, I never realized that variant of the book of James was available outside of that video but then again I didn't fully agree with the title of the video. How does it mention the trinity if it says "In the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost"? If you had three people sitting together eating lunch would it mean they are one? I knew that the Quran was written during Prophet Muhammad(PBUH)'s lifetime but I merely pointed out he didn't receive it in written.

And regarding Quran 3:7Allah points out that some verses need interpretation, I applied that to when it says that Jesus received a "book". The hadith in discussion I think means that Jews and Christians who become muslims will receive more rewards that any other non muslims who accept Islam. Again, Allah knows best.



Edited by 786SalamKhan - 15 January 2013 at 6:24am]]> Tue, 15 Jan 2013 05:54:54 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24591&PID=172754#172754 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24591&PID=172708#172708 Author: TG12345
Subject: 24591
Posted: 14 January 2013 at 4:19am

786SalaamKhan,

Salaam Alaikum. I hope you are doing well. I found some more hadiths which I think show that Muhammad believed that the Gospel was in book form.


(1) Narrated 'Aisha: (the mother of the faithful believers) The commencement of the Divine Inspiration to Allah's Apostle was in the form of good dreams which came true like bright day light, and then the love of seclusion was bestowed upon him. He used to go in seclusion in the cave of Hira where he used to worship (Allah alone) continuously for many days before his desire to see his family. He used to take with him the journey food for the stay and then come back to (his wife) Khadija to take his food like-wise again till suddenly the Truth descended upon him while he was in the cave of Hira. The angel came to him and asked him to read. The Prophet replied, "I do not know how to read. The Prophet added, "The angel caught me (forcefully) and pressed me so hard that I could not bear it any more. He then released me and again asked me to read and I replied, 'I do not know how to read.' Thereupon he caught me again and pressed me a second time till I could not bear it any more. He then released me and again asked me to read but again I replied, 'I do not know how to read (or what shall I read)?' Thereupon he caught me for the third time and pressed me, and then released me and said, 'Read in the name of your Lord, who has created (all that exists) has created man from a clot. Read! And your Lord is the Most Generous." (96.1, 96.2, 96.3) Then Allah's Apostle returned with the Inspiration and with his heart beating severely. Then he went to Khadija bint Khuwailid and said, "Cover me! Cover me!" They covered him till his fear was over and after that he told her everything that had happened and said, "I fear that something may happen to me." Khadija replied, "Never! By Allah, Allah will never disgrace you. You keep good relations with your Kith and kin, help the poor and the destitute, serve your guests generously and assist the deserving calamity-afflicted ones." Khadija then accompanied him to her cousin Waraqa bin Naufal bin Asad bin 'Abdul 'Uzza, who, during the PreIslamic Period became a Christian and used to write the writing with Hebrew letters. He would write from the Gospel in Hebrew as much as Allah wished him to write. He was an old man and had lost his eyesight. Khadija said to Waraqa, "Listen to the story of your nephew, O my cousin!" Waraqa asked, "O my nephew! What have you seen?" Allah's Apostle described whatever he had seen. Waraqa said, "This is the same one who keeps the secrets (angel Gabriel) whom Allah had sent to Moses. I wish I were young and could live up to the time when your people would turn you out." Allah's Apostle asked, "Will they drive me out?" Waraqa replied in the affirmative and said, "Anyone (man) who came with something similar to what you have brought was treated with hostility; and if I should remain alive till the day when you will be turned out then I would support you strongly." But after a few days Waraqa died and the Divine Inspiration was also paused for a while. Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah Al-Ansari while talking about the period of pause in revelation reporting the speech of the Prophet "While I was walking, all of a sudden I heard a voice from the sky. I looked up and saw the same angel who had visited me at the cave of Hira' sitting on a chair between the sky and the earth. I got afraid of him and came back home and said, 'Wrap me (in blankets).' And then Allah revealed the following Holy Verses (of Quran): 'O you (i.e. Muhammad)! wrapped up in garments!' Arise and warn (the people against Allah's Punishment),... up to 'and desert the idols.' (74.1-5) After this the revelation started coming strongly, frequently and regularly."  (Book #1, Hadith #3)

(2) Narrated 'Aisha: The Prophet returned to Khadija while his heart was beating rapidly. She took him to Waraqa bin Naufal who was a Christian convert and used to read the Gospels in Arabic Waraqa asked (the Prophet), "What do you see?" When he told him, Waraqa said, "That is the same angel whom Allah sent to the Prophet) Moses. Should I live till you receive the Divine Message, I will support you strongly."  (Book #55, Hadith #605)

http://www.searchtruth.com/searchHadith.php?keyword=Waraqa+bin+Naufal&translator=1&search=1&book=&start=0&records_display=10&search_word=all


According to these hadiths in Bukhari,

God had Ibn Warraqa, who was a Christian who was an elderly man when he met Muhammad, write in Hebrew from the Gospel.

Ibn Warraqa used to read the Gospels in Arabic.


This is I think significant, since it shows that people in Muhammad's time did have the Gospel, and that it was in written form.

I don't see how the first hadith could refer to a 'changed Gospel', unless you would assume that God would order an elderly man to write words that were not from Him.

It is interesting to me that Ibn Warraqa would read "the Gospels" in Arabic. If they were books that were changed by man, why would Khadija take Muhammad to him?


What are your thoughts?
]]> Mon, 14 Jan 2013 04:19:22 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24591&PID=172708#172708 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24591&PID=172691#172691 Author: TG12345
Subject: 24591
Posted: 13 January 2013 at 8:40pm

Originally posted by honeto

Originally posted by TG12345

Originally posted by Abu Loren



As'alaamu Alaikkum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuhu

 

Good news for Christians and Jews.

 

<div ="hadith_narrated"="">Abu Burdah bin Abi Musa narrated from his father that the Messenger of Allah said:

<div ="text_details"="">                      "Three will receive their reward twice: A slave who fulfills the rights of Allah and the rights of his owners, then he will be given his reward twice. And a man who has a beautiful slave girl, so he teaches her good manners, then he frees her, then he married her seeking the Face of Allah by that; then he will be given his reward twice.

Salaam Alaikum.Do you believe this applies to Christians and Jews today, or during Muhammad's time only?Also, what does the term "believe in" the earlier Book and "believe in" another Book mean? I would assume that means reading it and believing in what it says, am I right?

My two or so cents!

Answering your first question:
Yes it does. The Quran and the Prophet(pbuh) are valid till the end times.
The last line of the Hadith Abu Loren has written is very simple. If you believe in a book from God before, and believe the Quran to be from God, it is those whose reward will be doubled.
There were many who fit this category when the Quran was revealed and they accepted it to be from God, and became Muslim.
I personally believe that yes it applies to all of the people of the book that followed it's (Quran's) revelation. I say that on the basis of this understanding that once they accept the Quran, they enter light and guidance that also shows them that what they believed to be from God was indeed from God, just not in it's purity.
So as a reward for their test of faith, they are rewarded twice!
Hasan

Salaam Alaikum Hasan,

Thank you for your answer. I will ask you the same question I asked of Abu Loren.

What evidence is there that Christians, before they met Muhammad and had the Quran come to them, believed in or even stated there was such a thing as the Injil (which would be the 'previous Book' for Christians if I am not mistaken)?

According to the hadith:

And a man who believed in an earlier Book, then another Book came to him and he believed in it; then he will be given his reward twice."

It is pretty clear from the text that the Christians rewarded twice first believed in an earlier Book, and then the Quran came to them and they believed in it.


I have yet to find evidence outside the Quran and hadiths that Christians ever believed in a book like the Injil, which the Quran describes as a Scripture that was given to Jesus.

If you have any evidence of the belief in the existence of a Book revealed to Jesus by God from Christians or other non-Muslims around or prior to the time of Muhammad, please show me.

Allahu Akhbar.
]]> Sun, 13 Jan 2013 20:40:58 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24591&PID=172691#172691 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24591&PID=172685#172685 Author: honeto
Subject: 24591
Posted: 13 January 2013 at 3:08pm

Originally posted by TG12345

Originally posted by Abu Loren



As'alaamu Alaikkum Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuhu

 

Good news for Christians and Jews.

 

<div ="hadith_narrated"="">Abu Burdah bin Abi Musa narrated from his father that the Messenger of Allah said:

<div ="text_details"="">                      "Three will receive their reward twice: A slave who fulfills the rights of Allah and the rights of his owners, then he will be given his reward twice. And a man who has a beautiful slave girl, so he teaches her good manners, then he frees her, then he married her seeking the Face of Allah by that; then he will be given his reward twice. And a man who believed in an earlier Book, then another Book came to him and he believed in it; then he will be given his reward twice."

Salaam Alaikum.Do you believe this applies to Christians and Jews today, or during Muhammad's time only?Also, what does the term "believe in" the earlier Book and "believe in" another Book mean? I would assume that means reading it and believing in what it says, am I right?


My two or so cents!

Answering your first question:
Yes it does. The Quran and the Prophet(pbuh) are valid till the end times.
The last line of the Hadith Abu Loren has written is very simple. If you believe in a book from God before, and believe the Quran to be from God, it is those whose reward will be doubled.
There were many who fit this category when the Quran was revealed and they accepted it to be from God, and became Muslim.
I personally believe that yes it applies to all of the people of the book that followed it's (Quran's) revelation. I say that on the basis of this understanding that once they accept the Quran, they enter light and guidance that also shows them that what they believed to be from God was indeed from God, just not in it's purity.
So as a reward for their test of faith, they are rewarded twice!
Hasan



Edited by honeto - 13 January 2013 at 3:11pm]]>