Originally posted by Matt Browne



You seem to have misunderstood. Everyone can disagree with a law as long as he or she still follows it. Muslims are welcome to stay in our countries when they honor this principle. I don't agree with all of our laws. That's why we have political parties and a parliament with the power to change laws.I was talking about the fundamental secular principle that German laws supersede Islamic laws. And Christian laws too. Muslims who reject secularism are a threat to the entire Western world. These Muslims are better off living in theocratic countries. That was my point.

Originally posted by W.S.

Abu Loren, you are one entertaining fellow! Matt Browne has had so much patience with you that I'm amazed. I recall you once told him to grow up. Maybe you should consider doing that yourself.

Originally posted by Abu Loren

I've said it before, Matt Browne is a Nazi in disguise. Anyway, why would a German have the English name like Matt Browne?

Originally posted by Nausheen

For muslims in general telling them what not to do would mean telling them what islamic law is ... this is where clashes begin.

Originally posted by Nausheen

What most non-muslims have difficulty understanding is that islam is not just a religion, ie a set of rules on how to worship God. Within itself, it also contains instructions (pertaining to the soul)on spirituality and instructions (pertaining to society) on constitutional laws. It is a complete system with God in its center - unlike the secular states which do have a government and a law but God has been deleted - left for individuals to interact with (Him) on a very personal level. Since this is a working system of most countries today, we as muslims have to deal with the situation in best possible manner. At the same time those wishing to have peaceful coexistence with muslims need to understand that worship alone is not complete Islam, a muslim needs to implement on himself/herself their religion in totality.

Originally posted by Nausheen

Hijab is a personal choice just like 5 daily prayers are personal choice. If ALL of muslims, not just half, but ALL of muslims were to choose not to observe their daily prayers they are still wrong. Their leaving the prayer will not make their choice correct because of their number.Just like that if all of muslim women choose not to wear a hijab they are wrong.

Originally posted by Matt Browne

You consider this to be an attack on Islam? In Islam there is no compulsion in religion. So Allah gives women a choice. Muslim women who choose not to wear the hijab can still be devout followers of Islam.

Originally posted by Abu Loren

I've said it before, Matt Browne is a Nazi in disguise. Anyway, why would a German have the English name like Matt Browne?

Originally posted by Matt Browne



Thanks for this explanation, Nausheen. Outside of my own country, I'm not telling Muslims what to do.

Originally posted by Matt Browne


I have read numerous books from well-educated Muslims, for example Irshad Manji, and it is their understanding that Islam gives Muslims far more choices than they realize, especially Muslim women. If a woman wants to wear a hijab, this is a choice she made. Fine. Half of the women in Turkey choose not to wear it. Labeling them as deviant is unfair, because there is no such thing as a single valid interpretation of the Quran.

Originally posted by Matt Browne

Why are there Sunni and Shia? Why are there Protestants and Catholics. Why are there reformed Jews and ultra-orthodox Jews? When it comes to the matter of God and religion there is no such thing as 'one truth'.

Originally posted by Matt Browne

In Germany, German laws supersede Islamic laws, and Muslims who disagree with this should choose to live in a different country.

Originally posted by Matt Browne

That is the nature of secular countries. We can disagree with French law not allowing face veils, but we still have to follow the laws.

Originally posted by Matt Browne

A Christian can become a Muslim. A Muslim can become an atheist. A Christian can become a Buddhist. A Muslim can become a Christian. That's how our society works. When Muslims take issue with that, serious problems arise. Therefore our debates here are so important.

Originally posted by Matt Browne

You consider this to be an attack on Islam? In Islam there is no compulsion in religion. So Allah gives women a choice. Muslim women who choose not to wear the hijab can still be devout followers of Islam.

Originally posted by Matt Browne

I didn't attack Islam. Can you give me one example when I did?

I only have a problem with Muslims who don't want peace, who violate the 'no compulsion in religion' principle, who reject equal rights for men and women, and who violate other human rights.

Originally posted by Matt Browne

You are right, Abu Loren, nobody on this forum has expressed any militant views. But it's also important to distance oneself from non-militant Islamism. Yes, most forms of Islam show that it is a religion of peace. But this does not mean that the goal of all Muslims is peace. You seem to have a hard time to simply say: 'My goal is peace', perhaps with an explanation how to achieve peace. So far you also have not shown any tolerance for beliefs that differ from yours. You even seem angry with fellow Muslims whose beliefs differ from yours. You continue to depict Christians in the worst possible way and continue to use words like crusaders or infidels. Most Christians don't want to win. Most of us are not missionaries. We want Muslims to keep their faith and we do respect this faith when it respects ours. And we want peace, while all of us can choose our beliefs. That is what no compulsion in religion is all about. If you call this a soft approach, fine. I call it respecting the dignity of every human being and a commitment to fundamental human rights.

Originally posted by Matt Browne

It's a well-known fact that both militant and non-militant Islamists have no interest in peace. Their vision of a "pseudopeace" is a planet Earth ruled entirely by a 7th-century-flavored Islam, which includes chopping off people's hands. The Islam of Islamists also means eradicating all non-Muslim beliefs, except those of Christians and Jews willing to obey their Muslim rulers and to pay the fine for not being Muslim.

All Islamists should know, however, that our world community opposed to Islamism is very capable of defending our values, which includes equal rights for men and women, freedom of religion and no compulsion in religion, and all other fundamental human rights that we are committed to upholding.

Abu Loren, I truly hope you change your mind and work with all of us to build a peaceful world. Islamism is a form of theocratic fascism. I'm very much opposed to Nazism and all other types of fascism, which rely on some master race with more rights and those they are trying to dominate.

So is peace your goal, or not, Abu Loren? Yes or no?

Originally posted by Matt Browne



I agree. But since there are only three Muslims on Islamicity, as mentioned by Abu Loren, who do not wish for peace, we should remain hopeful that peace between Muslims and Christians is possible. But we need to be vigilant. Even a small minority can cause a lot of damage and suffering in the world, all in the name of Islam.

Originally posted by Caringheart

Then obviously, Abu Loren, even though you claim belonging to a religion which is meant to be about peace, you do not wish for peace at all, and neither do you have guidance in the way of finding it.

Originally posted by Nausheen

Assalamualiakum wa rahmatullah,

Is it the best way to tell the non muslims 'you infedel! Im here to educate you, so better listen to me - as that is best for you' ?

just wondering

Originally posted by Abu Loren


You are right on every point, however I am very direct and I do not like to mince with words nor beat around the bush. So sometimes in the heat of the moment I do forget myself and get carried away. Having said all the I will defend myself by saying that what I've said so far in this forum is the truth and I always back up my claims by using the Holy Qur'an and the Hadith of the Prophet (Salallahu Alaihi Wasalam).

Originally posted by Matt Browne

Yes, the Hadiths, it's all in there. This is why Muslim men and women seek to get a good general education, and not just a good religious education.

The Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) said:
"The seeking of knowledge is obligatory for every Muslim." - Al-Tirmidhi, Hadith 74
"Acquire knowledge and impart it to the people." - Al-Tirmidhi, Hadith 107
"One who treads a path in search of knowledge has his path to Paradise made easy by God." - Riyadh us-Saleheen, 245

Trying to depict Christians and Western non-Christians in the worst possible way is no better than trying to depict Muslims in the worst possible way, as if all Muslim men beat their wives, burn churches while people are praying inside, or fly fuel-laden airplanes into skyscrapers.

I don't depict Muslims in that way. Most Muslims are decent people most of the time and most Christians are decent people most of the time. But there are some differing beliefs between Muslims and Christians we should be aware of. Most Muslims assume the differences are mainly about Jesus being a prophet or the son of God. I think this assumption is wrong. To me, the main difference between Muhammad and Jesus is what the two said about how peace between large groups of people can be achieved. This is what Muslims and Christians should debate about. This is what truly matters in a globalized world of the 21st century. Good Christians are asked to love all their fellow human beings. That is the nature of our faith. We know that we are not perfect and sometimes we fail. But our failures drive us to become better human beings. We reject the sins, but not the sinners. Most people have the potential to become good and decent human beings. We Christians try hard to love all Muslims, even the Muslims who despise our faith and who despise everything about Western culture. It's easy to love a friend. It's difficult to love somebody who is hostile. But it's possible when we really try hard. We Christians don't focus on following all prescribed rituals (though they are also important). We focus on how we can learn to love and appreciate all human beings no matter how different they are. When other people give up their hatred, we forgive them. It's what the followers of Martin Luther King did, when Rosa Park's refusal to give up her bus seat made a lot of white supremacists very angry. Over the years millions gave up hatred of people with a different skin color. It's still there, but compare it to 1955. White people elect President Obama, because they think he is the best candidate. Imagine this in 1955. People can learn to give up hatred. People can learn to give up discrimination. Live and let live.

I'm trying hard not to be clueless about Islam. Are you trying hard not to be clueless about Christianity?

My wife and I have been married for 25 years. I never cheated on her. I don't go to night clubs. I don't like music with foul language in it. I don't use profanity in Internet forums. I'm trying to be polite and respectful. I drink alcohol in moderation, which is not a health risk like smoking. I don't smoke. I don't take drugs. I respect other cultures. I like to learn other languages. English is my second language and I love it. In 1986 I also learned some Arabic to find my way around Egypt.

Yes, there are drunk people out there. Yes, there are men who want to have sex with more than one woman. Yes, there are men who beat their wives. Yes, there is greed. This world is not perfect and it will never be. But we can make it a little better every day. With the exception of Yugoslavia, Europe has enjoyed peace for almost 70 years. Germans and French people hated each other. Today they are best friends. That's progress worth talking about. The same can happen with the Christian and the Muslim world in general. They can become best friends. It's one of my goals in life. We are all children of Ibrahim.

Friends don't call each other infidel or pagan or heathen. This is what Nausheen's question is all about. I think it's great she asked this question. If we can't get rid of derogatory terms, it's very difficult to appreciate diversity and celebrate differences. And if we all were the same, the world would be very boring.

Originally posted by Abu Loren


 The progress I'm talking about is not what you have described but what the Prophet (pbuh) warned all Muslims about. If you don't know what I'm talking about then go and read the Hadiths, it's all in there.

Originally posted by Matt Browne

I wonder if Muslims on Islamicity have the courage to challenge your views, Abu Loren.

If words like disbeliever are found in the Quran, does this mean you have to use them when meeting non-Muslims? If words like slave are found in the Quran, does this mean that you have to implement slavery in Muslim countries? If words like Jihad are found in the Quran, does this mean you should conquer non-Muslim countries (as was done between 632 and 1683 CE)?

Progressiveness and innovation is not forbidden in Islam. There are numerous verses in the Quran that encourage Muslims to use their brain and seek new knowledge. If progress was forbidden, people in the United Arab Emirates would ride camels and not drive cars and not use web browsers, and they would drink camel urine (as prescribed by the Hadith) and not get insulin shots. It doesn't matter what non-Muslims say, because they are all basically clueless? Yeah, well, I wonder how the clueless people found oil in the United Arab Emirates and built cars, and also replaced camel urine with insulin. I wonder who's clueless here.

Originally posted by Abu Loren



Greetings Abu Loren,

It would be good for you to remember that the earlier scriptures referred to infidels and unbelievers, and they were not referring precisely and specifically to all Jews, or Christians.  You really must be careful to discern what is an unbeliever.  This is where progress and intellect matter.  God does expect one to discern Truth from falsehood.
You are correct, those words apply only to those who do not believe in the one God of Abraham.
And still, all persons are entitled to their own belief... there should be 'no compulsion in religion'... God gives free will.

When progressiveness is forbidden, you must ask yourself, who is it in order to keep you a slave to?  Who are you really serving?

God does not forbid seeking.  On the contrary, God encourages it.

Salaam,
CH


Edited by Caringheart - 12 November 2012 at 12:29pm]]> Mon, 12 Nov 2012 12:25:29 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24251&PID=170050#170050 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24251&PID=170042#170042 Author: Abu Loren
Subject: 24251
Posted: 12 November 2012 at 8:03am

Originally posted by Matt Browne

Is it the best way? Of course not. Muslims whose goal is peace on Earth and a peaceful co-existence of different religion never use the words nonbeliever, disbeliever, unbeliever, infidel or kafir.

I can't think of a single Christian active on Islamicity who has ever called a Muslim a disbeliever or pagan or heathen. In the Christian past, the word heathen was often used to describe non-Christians. But Christianity has evolved. Christians believe in progress. When German news programs report about the Hajj, they refer to Muslim pilgrims as believers. Of course there are differences between Christian believers and Muslim believers. But this doesn't mean that they are not believers. Jews are believers too. And so are Hindus. Their beliefs are quite different from ours. But they are still beliefs. The beliefs of Sunnis and Shiites do also differ. Still both groups are groups of believers.

Christians on Islamicity do not mock Islam or the Prophet. I can't think of a single example. Besides, if someone tried, the moderators would intervene.

Educated Christians respect educated Muslims, which means that there is criticism and disagreement about certain claims and certain interpretations of the Quran and the Hadith. In Western culture, challenging someone's view is a sign of respect. It makes no sense to challenge a silly child and try to engage him or her in a intellectual debate. Christians who invest time and visit Islamic websites want to treat Muslims as mature adults, not children.

During debates both Christians and Muslims learn a lot. Christians also learn a lot when Muslims explain Islam. I am a Christian who greatly values education.

 

Political correctness is a Western way.

 

The words nonbeliever, disbeliever, unbeliever, infidel or kafir can be found in the Holy Qur'an and refers to anybody who does not believe in Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala as the One True God who created the heavens and the earth.

 

Progressiveness can be a form of innovaion which is forbidden in Islam. We muslims must keep to the principles and guidelines that we are given in the Holy Qur'an and the Sunnah of the Prophet (pbuh).

 

To be it doesn't matter what any non-muslim says, they are all basically clueless. The proof is that the most intelligent people on earth are Christians and they believe in nonsense called the Trinity. This alone proves that Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala puts a veil over the eyes of the unbeliever and He guides whom He wills.

]]> Mon, 12 Nov 2012 08:03:41 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24251&PID=170042#170042 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24251&PID=170030#170030 Author: Matt Browne
Subject: 24251
Posted: 12 November 2012 at 5:57am

Is it the best way? Of course not. Muslims whose goal is peace on Earth and a peaceful co-existence of different religion never use the words nonbeliever, disbeliever, unbeliever, infidel or kafir.

I can't think of a single Christian active on Islamicity who has ever called a Muslim a disbeliever or pagan or heathen. In the Christian past, the word heathen was often used to describe non-Christians. But Christianity has evolved. Christians believe in progress. When German news programs report about the Hajj, they refer to Muslim pilgrims as believers. Of course there are differences between Christian believers and Muslim believers. But this doesn't mean that they are not believers. Jews are believers too. And so are Hindus. Their beliefs are quite different from ours. But they are still beliefs. The beliefs of Sunnis and Shiites do also differ. Still both groups are groups of believers.

Christians on Islamicity do not mock Islam or the Prophet. I can't think of a single example. Besides, if someone tried, the moderators would intervene.

Educated Christians respect educated Muslims, which means that there is criticism and disagreement about certain claims and certain interpretations of the Quran and the Hadith. In Western culture, challenging someone's view is a sign of respect. It makes no sense to challenge a silly child and try to engage him or her in a intellectual debate. Christians who invest time and visit Islamic websites want to treat Muslims as mature adults, not children.

During debates both Christians and Muslims learn a lot. Christians also learn a lot when Muslims explain Islam. I am a Christian who greatly values education.



Edited by Matt Browne - 12 November 2012 at 6:00am]]> Mon, 12 Nov 2012 05:57:38 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24251&PID=170030#170030 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24251&PID=170006#170006 Author: Abu Loren
Subject: 24251
Posted: 11 November 2012 at 6:19am

Originally posted by Nausheen

 

Assalamualiakum wa rahmatullah wa barkatuhu,

 

Then what's the point educating them?

 

And what's the point in referring to them with derogatory terminology?

 

 

 

Wa Alaikkum As'alaam Wa Rahmatullahi Wa Barakatuhu

 

Tell me where I have used derogatory terms?

 

If you haven't noticed already the majority of the non-muslims particularly the Christians are not here to educate themselves but to mock and discredit Islam and the Prophet (pbuh).

]]> Sun, 11 Nov 2012 06:19:27 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24251&PID=170006#170006 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24251&PID=170003#170003 Author: Nausheen
Subject: 24251
Posted: 11 November 2012 at 5:29am

Originally posted by Abu Loren

Indeed, [O Muhammad], you do not guide whom you like, but Allah guides whom He wills. And He is most knowing of the [rightly] guided 

 

You and I on our own cannot do anything without the guidance of Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala.

 

And of the people is he who disputes about Allah without knowledge or guidance or an enlightening book [from Him], 22:8

 

I think the above verse is more relevant to the people here (non-Muslims).

 

Salaam

 

Assalamualiakum wa rahmatullah wa barkatuhu,

 

Then what's the point educating them?

 

And what's the point in referring to them with derogatory terminology?

 

 

]]> Sun, 11 Nov 2012 05:29:20 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24251&PID=170003#170003 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24251&PID=169926#169926 Author: Abu Loren
Subject: 24251
Posted: 09 November 2012 at 1:57am

Originally posted by Nausheen

Assalamualiakum wa rahmatullah,

It is said in the Quran the following:
16:125

Invite to the way of your Lord with wisdom and good instruction, and argue with them in a way that is best. Indeed, your Lord is most knowing of who has strayed from His way, and He is most knowing of who is [rightly] guided.

We are instructed to invite others to the way of Our Lord 'with wisdom' and 'with good'

We are told to do this 'in a way that is best'

Is it the best way to tell the non muslims 'you infedel! Im here to educate you, so better listen to me - as that is best for you' ?

just wondering

 

Wa Alaikkum As'alaam Wa Rahmatulliah Wa Barakatuhu

 

You are right, however if you haven't noticed it already most of the non-Muslims on this forum are here to dicredit Islam and the Prophet (pbuh).

 

Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala also says in the Holy Qur'an

 

Sahih International

Indeed, [O Muhammad], you do not guide whom you like, but Allah guides whom He wills. And He is most knowing of the [rightly] guided 

 

You and I on our own cannot do anything without the guidance of Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala.

 

And of the people is he who disputes about Allah without knowledge or guidance or an enlightening book [from Him], 22:8

 

I think the above verse is more relevant to the people here (non-Muslims).

 

Salaam

]]> Fri, 09 Nov 2012 01:57:10 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24251&PID=169926#169926 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24251&PID=169911#169911 Author: Nausheen
Subject: 24251
Posted: 08 November 2012 at 6:16pm

Assalamualiakum wa rahmatullah,

It is said in the Quran the following:
16:125

Invite to the way of your Lord with wisdom and good instruction, and argue with them in a way that is best. Indeed, your Lord is most knowing of who has strayed from His way, and He is most knowing of who is [rightly] guided.

We are instructed to invite others to the way of Our Lord 'with wisdom' and 'with good'

We are told to do this 'in a way that is best'

Is it the best way to tell the non muslims 'you infedel! Im here to educate you, so better listen to me - as that is best for you' ?

just wondering ]]> Thu, 08 Nov 2012 18:16:38 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24251&PID=169911#169911