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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? :  Originally posted by WebberI...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24200&amp;PID=173230#173230</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=66457">bunter</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 23 January 2013 at 1:02pm<br /><br /> <div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Webber</strong></em><br /><br /><br /><br />I borrowed this btw.<div> </div><div>I have an example. Tell me what you think. A child is given some plasticine and begins to create several figures. He decided that a couple of them are not to his liking and so chooses to put them into the recycling bin. Is this 'apparent injustice' to those unfortunate figures? He owns them and created them so it's his business what he does with them and no one has the right to tell him anything. If anyone shares their opinion with him by saying he is unfair, it's not incumbent upon him to answer.</div></div> <br /><br />Do these figures have life?]]>
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   <pubDate>Wed, 23 Jan 2013 13:02:44 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? :   I borrowed this btw.I have...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24200&amp;PID=173199#173199</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71676">Webber</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 22 January 2013 at 4:20pm<br /><br />I borrowed this btw.<div>&nbsp;</div><div>I have an example. Tell me what you think. A child is given some plasticine and begins to create several figures. He decided that a couple of them are not to his liking and so chooses to put them into the recycling bin. Is this 'apparent injustice' to those unfortunate figures? He owns them and created them so it's his business what he does with them and no one has the right to tell him anything. If anyone shares their opinion with him by saying he is unfair, it's not incumbent upon him to answer.</div>]]>
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   <pubDate>Tue, 22 Jan 2013 16:20:11 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? :  Originally posted by Caringheart Originally...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24200&amp;PID=173122#173122</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=59438">honeto</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 21 January 2013 at 3:45pm<br /><br /> <div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Abu Loren</strong></em><br /><br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><strong>8:</strong>&lt;a name="17"&gt;<strong>17</strong>&lt;a name="17"&gt;&lt;/a&gt; &lt;span&gt;Ye (Muslims) slew them not, but Allah <br />slew them. And thou (Muhammad) threwest not when thou didst throw, but Allah <br />threw&lt;/span&gt;, that He might test the believers by a fair test from Him.<div> </div><div></div>So while you lay an argument against what the Israelites did when they entered Canaan, your very own scriptures say it is only allah using the hands of his people to do these things.<br /><div> </div><div>Do you see the problem in your own scriptures as you seem to find a problem with the torah?</div><br /></div><br /><div> </div><div>There is no problem actually as women and children were not killed. Only the combatants.</div></div><br /><div> </div><div>They were not killed?  Are you quite sure?  and if the women and children were not killed they were taken as slaves and the women were raped.  Is that better?  Is that approved by allah?</div></div><br /><br />CArinheart,<br />you are missing the point. It is about injustice which seems to have come as a command from God. And that's the issue. Of course, what we are saying is that such an order to kill all even babies and animals and trees cannot come from God, who is Just and Loving. Can your head process that?<br />Hasan ]]>
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   <pubDate>Mon, 21 Jan 2013 15:45:50 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? : Hi Islam,There was one last...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24200&amp;PID=172757#172757</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71448">Placid</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 15 January 2013 at 8:22am<br /><br />Hi Islam,<br /><br />There was one last question you posted that I want to respond to on this topic.<br />Quote: Your appeal to this verse (1 John 5:7) is bizarre given that it clearly refers to the trinitarian doctrine.  Of course, appealing to this verse in defense of the trinity is in itself a problem given that no Greek manuscripts have this wording.<br /><br />Response: --- (Not quite right.) --- The context of 1 John 5:7 begins in verse 6, and it refers to an alternate type of body that Jesus could have come in: <br />6 This is He who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth. <br />7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. <br />8 And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one.<br /><br />6 --- Had Jesus come as an angel, like Gabriel, He could have talked to men as Gabriel did, He could have taught the disciples, He could have healed the sick and raised the dead and done all the miracles. --- He could have done everything except die.  --- So rather than the alternate body called. --- a ‘water body’ (which would be one with low water content to adjust to gravity at near ‘zero weight,’ as the angels seem to have that can appear, or expand and disappear, even as Jesus did after His body was drained of blood and water, and after He was resurrected, He could appear or disappear with the disciples). <br />--- So rather than coming as an ‘angel like’ being, He came by water and blood, in a natural human body. --- And the Spirit bears witness that this is true, whether we believe it or not.<br /><br />7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; --- (the three who were there in the beginning, Genesis 1:1, God, the Creator and Father of all. --- And His Spirit that hovered over the waters and brought life in them, Genesis 1:2 . --- And the Word through whom all things were created when God said, “Let there BE.” Genesis 1:3<br /><br />--- And it was written previously by John, in John 1:<br />1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. <br />2 He was in the beginning with God. <br />3 All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.<br />--- This is the mystery of God, --- that the Holy Spirit and the Word (Logos) could be called Servants or Manifestations of God Himself, yet are one with Him, --- and be CALLED God, as God is one. <br /><br />--- Some Church Father in the second century who was explaining this relationship made the comparison of the Word and the Holy Spirit as being the two arms of God. --- As in our body the intellect determines or decides, --- then the arms, as willing servants, perform the action.<br />--- (That is quite a good analogy and this was from long before the ‘faulty’ trinity doctrine was introduced in the Roman Church in 325 AD.)<br />The Quran verifies this in Surah 4:171, where it says, Jesus was the Messenger on earth of the Three, --- God, --- and His Word, (which He conveyed into Mary), --- and a Spirit from Him (God). --- And the verse says, --- “BUT DON’T SAY THREE” --- God is only One God. --- Is that not the same as John said? <br /><br />7. While you might think verse 7 supports the ‘trinitarians,’ --- IT DOES NOT.<br />They put Jesus, the Son, in place of the Word, which is their own distortion, --- because the Word, from God, indwelt the human body of Jesus, and God was Manifested through Jesus. --- As I have said, Jesus had a human body, but Divine Spirit from God. <br /><br />The Greek manuscripts used in the Douay and King James versions have the verses intact. This proves that the Latin Vulgate contained the full verses, and the Greek manuscripts used for the King James as well.<br /><br />All older Bibles include the verses and make no mention of any alternate wording. The New King James makes mention of the other manuscript in a footnote, --- but the NIV has it this way in 1 John 5:<br />6 This is the one who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ. He did not come by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.<br />7 For there are three that testify: <br />8 the Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.<br /><br />--- And this is from the main manuscripts --- in the New King James:<br />6 This is He who came by water and blood—Jesus Christ; not only by water, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who bears witness, because the Spirit is truth. <br />7 For there are three that bear witness in heaven: the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit; and these three are one. <br />8 And there are three that bear witness on earth: the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and these three agree as one.<br /><br />It is obvious that the authorized Greek Manuscripts that were used for the Canon of Scripture in about 365 AD had the verses already numbered before that, so before the Latin Vulgate, so it is quite evident that verse 7 in the NIV is not a sentence, is it?<br />--- (However, if anyone doesn’t want to read it because they don’t understand its verification in Scripture, they don’t have to. --- But the NIV is a scholarly version and in most cases is compatible, but in some cases is ‘out on its own limb.’) <br /><br />But the proof for Muslims should be Surah 4:171, which ‘confirms’ verse 7 by saying --- That Jesus Christ was the Messenger --- ‘of God, His Word, and His Spirit.’ --- “BUT DON’T SAY THREE --- GOD IS ONLY ONE GOD.’<br />--- And notice: --- Neither in 1 John nor the Quran, is Jesus one of the Three.<br /><br /><br />Placid<br /><br />]]>
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   <pubDate>Tue, 15 Jan 2013 08:22:03 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? :   Originally posted by Abu Loren  Originally...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24200&amp;PID=172503#172503</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=69566">Caringheart</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 09 January 2013 at 1:47pm<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Abu Loren</strong></em><br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br /><strong>8:</strong><a name="17"><strong>17</strong><a name="17"></a> <span>Ye (Muslims) slew them not, but Allah slew them. And thou (Muhammad) threwest not when thou didst throw, but Allah threw</span>, that He might test the believers by a fair test from Him.<div>&nbsp;</div><div></div>So while you lay an argument against what the Israelites did when they entered Canaan, your very own scriptures say it is only allah using the hands of his people to do these things.<div>&nbsp;</div><div>Do you see the problem&nbsp;in your own scriptures as you seem to&nbsp;find a problem with the torah?</div></div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>There is no problem actually as women and children were not killed. Only the combatants.</div></div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>They were not killed?&nbsp; Are you quite sure?&nbsp; and if the women and children were not killed they were taken as slaves and the women were raped.&nbsp; Is that better?&nbsp; Is that approved by allah?</div>]]>
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   <pubDate>Wed, 09 Jan 2013 13:47:31 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? :  Originally posted by Caringheart8:&amp;lt;a...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24200&amp;PID=172447#172447</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=67758">Mahdi The Seeke</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 08 January 2013 at 1:14pm<br /><br /> <div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><strong>8:</strong>&lt;a name="17"&gt;<strong>17</strong>&lt;a name="17"&gt;&lt;/a&gt; &lt;span&gt;Ye (Muslims) slew them not, but Allah <br />slew them. And thou (Muhammad) threwest not when thou didst throw, but Allah <br />threw&lt;/span&gt;, that He might test the believers by a fair test from Him.<div> </div><div></div>So while you lay an argument against what the Israelites did when they entered Canaan, your very own scriptures say it is only allah using the hands of his people to do these things.<br /><div> </div><div>Do you see the problem in your own scriptures as you seem to find a problem with the torah?</div><br /></div> <br /><br />iN QURAN, FIGHTING IS COMMANDED ONLY IN SELF DEFENCE, AND ONLY AS LONG AS THE AGGRESSORS CONTINUE TO FIGHT. if the attackers cease to fight/surrender, you should stop fighting. prisoners of war are to be ransomed or set free.<span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by Mahdi The Seeke - 08 January 2013 at 1:15pm</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Tue, 08 Jan 2013 13:14:04 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? : Hi Webber,Quote: Yes, Titus...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24200&amp;PID=172443#172443</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71448">Placid</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 08 January 2013 at 12:44pm<br /><br />Hi Webber,<br /><br />Quote: Yes, Titus was successful in his ministry and well thought of by Paul. Paul’s epistles to Titus contained many good teachings. <br />Glad you added, I must confess I got stuck up on the NIV mistranslation and missed the true reason Titus was written.<br /><br />Response: --- Yes, we need to keep to the true translations. We don’t need to know Hebrew, Greek, or Latin, even though they were the languages posted on the cross (which proves that these languages were common at that time). --- It is good to have a friend or Pastor who does know some languages who can be a source of info when needed. --- Sometimes it is just the choice of words of the translators.<br /><br />As I said, I usually use the New King James, but I refer to many different ones at times for comparison.<br />I know some others who are KJV only, and I have no problem with them except when they start comparing and criticizing the New KJ. <br />Then I ask a simple question. “What does the word ‘holpen’ mean?”<br />There is a verse in the KJV that says, “He hath holpen His servant Israel.”<br /><br />I noticed your comment, and I agree on the trinity doctrine being ‘faulty,’ and I have mentioned it at different times.<br /><br />I have been asked about 1 John 5:7 on this topic so I will check it soon also.  <br /><br /><br />Placid<br /><br />]]>
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   <pubDate>Tue, 08 Jan 2013 12:44:21 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? : CAringheart,now I am really wondering...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24200&amp;PID=172440#172440</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=59438">honeto</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 08 January 2013 at 12:12pm<br /><br />CAringheart,<br />now I am really wondering if your understanding is that much clogged?<br />We are not talking about killings, we are talking about commands to unjustifiable killings. Please tell me first if you can differentiate between the two, it is very important that you do that first.<br />Love,<br />Hasan]]>
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   <pubDate>Tue, 08 Jan 2013 12:12:31 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? :   Originally posted by Caringheart    8:17...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24200&amp;PID=172421#172421</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=70404">Abu Loren</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 08 January 2013 at 2:35am<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br /><strong>8:</strong><a name="17"><strong>17</strong><a name="17"></a> <span>Ye (Muslims) slew them not, but Allah slew them. And thou (Muhammad) threwest not when thou didst throw, but Allah threw</span>, that He might test the believers by a fair test from Him.<div>&nbsp;</div><div></div>So while you lay an argument against what the Israelites did when they entered Canaan, your very own scriptures say it is only allah using the hands of his people to do these things.<div>&nbsp;</div><div>Do you see the problem&nbsp;in your own scriptures as you seem to&nbsp;find a problem with the torah?</div></div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>There is no problem actually as women and children were not killed. Only the combatants.</div>]]>
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   <pubDate>Tue, 08 Jan 2013 02:35:58 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? :     8:17 Ye (Muslims) slew...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24200&amp;PID=172415#172415</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=69566">Caringheart</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 07 January 2013 at 9:06pm<br /><br /><strong>8:</strong><a name="17"><strong>17</strong><a name="17"></a> <span>Ye (Muslims) slew them not, but Allah slew them. And thou (Muhammad) threwest not when thou didst throw, but Allah threw</span>, that He might test the believers by a fair test from Him.<div>&nbsp;</div><div></div>So while you lay an argument against what the Israelites did when they entered Canaan, your very own scriptures say it is only allah using the hands of his people to do these things.<div>&nbsp;</div><div>Do you see the problem&nbsp;in your own scriptures as you seem to&nbsp;find a problem with the torah?</div><span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by Caringheart - 07 January 2013 at 9:09pm</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Mon, 07 Jan 2013 21:06:34 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? : In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent,...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24200&amp;PID=172353#172353</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=53418">islamispeace</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 06 January 2013 at 11:40am<br /><br />In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Webber</strong></em><br /><br /><font size="3"><font face="Calibri">The point of the “rant” is, you asked for an explanation ofTitus 2:13, then said it opens another can of worms that you are very familiarwith. The plan was to rehash an old argument you had with someone else to seeif I knew as much about it? Or just to go over arguments you believe you’ve wonbefore regardless of the original topic?</font></font></div><br><br>The "plan" was to deal with your appeal to the KJV from an objective point of view.&nbsp; If you think that we should rely on the KJV instead of other translations, because it supposedly provides a more accurate translation, than the logical conclusion would be that the KJV would support your point of view on a consistent basis.&nbsp; I showed that while the wording of Titus 2:13 is different from the NIV, in other places, it clearly refers to a trinitarian doctrine (i.e. that Jesus is divine).&nbsp; Instead of offering a substantive rebuttal, you accused of changing topics, which is ironic because you have attempted to change the topic of this thread on a few occasions.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Webber</strong></em><br /><br /><font size="3"><font face="Calibri">Just a quick response to your off topic. The trinity theoryis flawed from the start. We'll get to that some day.</font></font></div><br><br>Well, of course it is flawed!&nbsp; You can blame your fellow Christians for it.&nbsp; Don't blame Muslims.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Webber</strong></em><br /><br /><font size="3"><font face="Calibri"> didn’t, Muhammad did. You said Sunnah and I responded. It’samazing how much the Quran says that gets hadithed away.</font></font></div><br><br>No, what's "amazing" is that you like to change topics whenever you feel like it and then accuse others of changing topics.&nbsp; We can deal with the Hadiths in a separate thread.&nbsp; This is not the place to discuss it.&nbsp; The topic of this thread is the Biblical genocide.&nbsp; <br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Webber</strong></em><br /><br /><font size="3"><font face="Calibri">Wow, just got here and I’m already a sheik, not bad. Thot I’dbe stuck a newbie for much longer. I can’t determine what you use for guidance,but there’s no end to it if you can pull stories out of a hat.</font></font></div><br><br>Again to repeat: regarding the prohibition in Islam against killing children, see the points I provided.&nbsp; Point #3 specifically refers to the prohibition of killing children during wartime, whereas the Bible says that God allowed the Israelites to kill children.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Webber</strong></em><br /><br /><font size="3"><font face="Calibri">Didn’t say I was questioning it, the question was asked backon the first page. I’m not going to remain a very good sheik if you keeptwisting my words.</font></font></div><br><br>Really?&nbsp; You weren't "questioning it"?&nbsp; Isn't this what you wrote:<br><br><font color="#0000FF">"<font size="3"><font face="Calibri">Of course there's nothing humanitarian aboutgenocide, <u><b>the question was is it evil</b></u>. The next question would be, Is God ahumanitarian? God does not look at human life the way we humanitarians do. <u><b>Isit a good idea to squeeze God into our modern day ideals</b></u>?</font></font>"</font><br><br>I submit that genocide is evil, no matter when it was done or by whom.&nbsp; Do you agree?<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Webber</strong></em><br /><br /><font size="3"><font face="Calibri">Rhetorical. Does every bombing that happens in the name ofAllah really have to do with Allah?</font></font></div><br><br>You just repeated the same point I wan making but did not answer the question.&nbsp; Isn't the reason that you are not condemning the genocide in the Bible because the Bible claims it was God's command?&nbsp; The truth is that this is the only reason why Christians do not condemn the genocide, while hypocritically condemning other acts of violence.&nbsp; Similarly, if the Bible had claimed that God allowed rape, you would have a hard time condemning it because "God" was allegedly involved.&nbsp; As I said on this thread long before you came to the forum, a person can justify any type of atrocity as long as "God" allegedly gave the command.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Webber</strong></em><br /><br /><font size="3"><font face="Calibri">So you must have all the facts.</font></font></div><br><br>Ah, speaking of "twisting of words"...<br><br>I never said I have all the facts.&nbsp; I said that your theories about the people the Israelites killed having AIDS was based on speculation and not facts.&nbsp; You have presented no evidence for this latest theory.&nbsp; The burden of proof is on you to prove your theory.<br><br>The truth is that you have simply added to a growing list of excuses presented by other Christians on this thread.&nbsp; There was even one person who tried to insinuate that the Canaanites were not even fully human!&nbsp; The excuse you have provided is that the people had AIDS!&nbsp; Apparently, that was a good enough reason (if it was even true) to kill everyone.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Webber</strong></em><br /><br /><font face="Calibri"><font size="3">So you don’t have allthe facts?</font></font></div><br><br><img src="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif" border="0" align="absmiddle" alt="LOL" /> Obviously, you have nothing substantive to add to this discussion.&nbsp; <br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Webber</strong></em><br /><br /><font size="3"><font face="Calibri">I guess that would depend on whether you envision an authorstanding on a hilltop declaring these statements while waving a flag, or asober author writing down the predicted outcome.</font></font></div><br><br>These verses would have been recited over and over again by the Israelites.&nbsp; It matters little whether they were declared by an "author standing on a hilltop" or not.&nbsp; These verses refer to the violence that was to come in a threatening tone.&nbsp; One could argue that it was preparing the Israelites for the gruesome "job".<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Webber</strong></em><br /><br /><font size="3"><font face="Calibri">I’m with ya buddy! Two dimes in a dozen. <span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">&nbsp;</span>There’s always a self-appointed Islamicscholar wannabe who tells the Christians where they stand on every site.</font></font></div><br><br>So Webber, anything substantive to add?&nbsp; <img src="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif" border="0" align="absmiddle" alt="Wink" /><br><br>So far, all you have done is make petty one-liners and bad jokes, changed topics at your whim, told Muslims that they can't use the Hadiths, and provided new excuses for the Biblical genocide.&nbsp; Good job!<br>]]>
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   <pubDate>Sun, 06 Jan 2013 11:40:08 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? :     Hi Placid.   Good to...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24200&amp;PID=172321#172321</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71676">Webber</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 05 January 2013 at 2:45pm<br /><br /><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><font size="3"><font face="Calibri">Hi Placid. <?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p></font></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><font size="3"><font face="Calibri">Good to see other Christians on the site. This sure beatsChristian sites. I’ve been booted, ignored, collected numerous titles, (besidesSheik) and virtually sent to hell on Christian sites. I like that Muslims havea more open approach to debate, as in…they are eager to debate. <span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></font></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><font size="3"><font face="Calibri"><div class="BBquote"><o:p></o:p></font></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><font size="3"><font face="Calibri">Hi Webber, <o:p></o:p></font></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><font size="3"><font face="Calibri">I just want to add a comment on the NIV --- which is quitecommonly used, even in many Churches. --- The work on this new contemporarytranslation began in 1965, and it is more of a ‘scholarly’ version, --- but ithas its difficulties.<o:p></o:p></font></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><font face="Calibri"><font size="3"><span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">&nbsp;</span>--- I want to say thatI don’t use the NIV except for reference, as I did in this case.</div><o:p></o:p></font></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><font size="3"><font face="Calibri">I really didn’t introduce myself here, but you could call mea Pauline Christian if you like. I’ve been called a couple other names becauseof it, but it doesn’t change Paul at all so no biggie. As Islamispeace notedI’m KJV only. I can read it, I can understand it, and it’s where I get myinspiration so why confuse the issue? <o:p></o:p></font></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><font size="3"><font face="Calibri"><div class="BBquote">The Canon of Scripture was approved about 365 AD byall the Churches, and Jerome set about to translate from the Hebrew, Greek (andwhat already existed in Latin), an authorized Bible which was the LatinVulgate. It was used from 400-1600, when it was translated into English in theDouay Version (of which I have a copy).<o:p></o:p></font></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><font size="3"><font face="Calibri"><span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></font></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><font size="3"><font face="Calibri">About the same time, King James of England gathered 47 BibleScholars and linguists to translate into English from the most ancient Hebrewand Greek manuscripts, and the result was the King James Version, about 1611.<o:p></o:p></font></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><font face="Calibri"><font size="3"><span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">&nbsp;</span>The Douay and theKing James are almost verse by verse the same, --- which proves that there wereno changes made in the Latin Vulgate, through those 1200 years of the Church,--- and the King James, translated from the Hebrew and Greek is the same exceptfor the choice of words of the translators.<o:p></o:p></font></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><font size="3"><font face="Calibri"><span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></font></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><font size="3"><font face="Calibri">I normally use the New King James which is an update of thelanguage from the Old English, but the verse structure is the same, --- And theinspiration is the same. --- Also the New American Standard Version is good,</div><o:p></o:p></font></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><font size="3"><font face="Calibri">This is what I’m talking about. Of course I’m nowhere withLatin, Hebrew, nor Greek so next best is English. Two separate Biblestranslated from the same source, in the same era, without attachment that arealmost word for word say more of the accuracy than any translation since. <o:p></o:p></font></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><font size="3"><font face="Calibri">The NIV Committee on Bible Translation were 15 scholars thatof which half resigned within the first few years. One thing you can count onis that every member of that committee was/is a Trinitarian. Not just Trinitarian,but most are Fire and brimstone Trinitarians. This is where it irks me to seethe NIV create a new meaning for the old message. <o:p></o:p></font></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><font face="Calibri"><font size="3"><span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">&nbsp;</span>{quote&#093; Regardless ofthe attacks on the Bible, God has preserved His Message the same, has He not?&#091;/quote&#093;<o:p></o:p></font></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><font size="3"><font face="Calibri">He has.<o:p></o:p></font></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><font face="Calibri"><font size="3"><span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">&nbsp;</span><div class="BBquote">--- The youngman, Titus, was a convert of Paul’s ministry and became a trusted companion,and he then became the Pastor of the Church in Crete, to set it in order and,‘to appoint elders, men of proven spiritual character in their homes andbusinesses.’ --- This is a good formula for new and ‘reformed’ Churches, is itnot?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">&nbsp; </span></div><o:p></o:p></font></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><font face="Calibri"><font size="3"><span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">&nbsp;</span>Yes, Titus was successfulin his ministry and well thought of by Paul. Paul’s epistles to Titus containedmany good teachings. <o:p></o:p></font></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><font size="3"><font face="Calibri">Glad you added, I must confess I got stuck up on the NIV mistranslationand missed the true reason Titus was written.<o:p></o:p></font></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><font size="3"><font face="Calibri"><span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></font></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><font size="3"><font face="Calibri">However--- The good teaching continues in Titus 3: <o:p></o:p></font></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><font size="3"><font face="Calibri">1 Remind them to be subject to rulers and authorities, toobey, to be ready for every good work,<o:p></o:p></font></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><font face="Calibri"><font size="3"><span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">&nbsp;</span>2 to speak evil of noone, to be peaceable, gentle, showing all humility to all men.<o:p></o:p></font></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><font face="Calibri"><font size="3"><span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">&nbsp;</span>3 For we ourselveswere also once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts andpleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another.<o:p></o:p></font></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><font face="Calibri"><font size="3"><span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">&nbsp;</span>4 But when thekindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, <o:p></o:p></font></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><font size="3"><font face="Calibri">5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, butaccording to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration andrenewing of the Holy Spirit,<o:p></o:p></font></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><font face="Calibri"><font size="3"><span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">&nbsp;</span>6 whom He poured outon us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, <o:p></o:p></font></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><font size="3"><font face="Calibri">7 that having been justified by His grace we should becomeheirs according to the hope of eternal life.<o:p></o:p></font></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><font face="Calibri"><font size="3"><span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">&nbsp;</span>8 This is a faithfulsaying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who havebelieved in God should be careful to maintain good works. These things are goodand profitable to men.<o:p></o:p></font></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><font size="3"><font face="Calibri"><span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></font></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><font size="3"><font face="Calibri">9 But avoid foolish disputes, genealogies, contentions, andstrivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and useless.<o:p></o:p></font></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><font face="Calibri"><font size="3"><span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">&nbsp;</span>10 Reject a divisiveman after the first and second admonition, <o:p></o:p></font></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><font size="3"><font face="Calibri">11 knowing that such a person is warped and sinning, beingself-condemned. <o:p></o:p></font></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><o:p><font size="3" face="Calibri">&nbsp;</font></o:p></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><o:p><font size="3" face="Calibri">&nbsp;</font></o:p></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><font size="3"><font face="Calibri">Placid<o:p></o:p></font></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font>]]>
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   <pubDate>Sat, 05 Jan 2013 14:45:59 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? : Hi Webber,I just want to add...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24200&amp;PID=172268#172268</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71448">Placid</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 04 January 2013 at 6:48am<br /><br />Hi Webber,<br /><br />I just want to add a comment on the NIV --- which is quite commonly used, even in many Churches. --- The work on this new contemporary translation began in 1965, and it is more of a ‘scholarly’ version, --- but it has its difficulties. <br />--- I want to say that I don’t use the NIV except for reference, as I did in this case. <br /><br />The Canon of Scripture was approved about 365 AD by all the Churches, and Jerome set about to translate from the Hebrew, Greek (and what already existed in Latin), an authorized Bible which was the Latin Vulgate. It was used from 400-1600, when it was translated into English in the Douay Version (of which I have a copy). <br /><br />About the same time, King James of England gathered 47 Bible Scholars and linguists to translate into English from the most ancient Hebrew and Greek manuscripts, and the result was the King James Version, about 1611.<br />The Douay and the King James are almost verse by verse the same, --- which proves that there were no changes made in the Latin Vulgate, through those 1200 years of the Church, --- and the King James, translated from the Hebrew and Greek is the same except for the choice of words of the translators.<br /><br />I normally use the New King James which is an update of the language from the Old English, but the verse structure is the same, --- And the inspiration is the same. --- Also the New American Standard Version is good,<br />Regardless of the attacks on the Bible, God has preserved His Message the same, has He not? <br /><br />--- The young man, Titus, was a convert of Paul’s ministry and became a trusted companion, and he then became the Pastor of the Church in Crete, to set it in order and, ‘to appoint elders, men of proven spiritual character in their homes and businesses.’ --- This is a good formula for new and ‘reformed’ Churches, is it not?&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<br /><br />However--- The good teaching continues in Titus 3:<br />1 Remind them to be subject to rulers and authorities, to obey, to be ready for every good work, <br />2 to speak evil of no one, to be peaceable, gentle, showing all humility to all men. <br />3 For we ourselves were also once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another. <br />4 But when the kindness and the love of God our Savior toward man appeared, <br />5 not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us, through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, <br />6 whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Savior, <br />7 that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.<br />8 This is a faithful saying, and these things I want you to affirm constantly, that those who have believed in God should be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable to men.<br /><br />9 But avoid foolish disputes, genealogies, contentions, and strivings about the law; for they are unprofitable and useless. <br />10 Reject a divisive man after the first and second admonition, <br />11 knowing that such a person is warped and sinning, being self-condemned.<br /><br /><br />Placid<br /><br />]]>
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   <pubDate>Fri, 04 Jan 2013 06:48:44 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? :  Originally posted by honeto Originally...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24200&amp;PID=172266#172266</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=67758">Mahdi The Seeke</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 04 January 2013 at 4:32am<br /><br /> <div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by honeto</strong></em><br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Webber</strong></em><br /><br /><br /><br />LOL@ 16 pages of contempt for Christians not giving the "right" answers. <div> </div><div>As for Titus 2:13, read the King James version, or earlier. </div><div>IMHO English translations/transliterations since then have added the beliefs of the "scholar" through subtle changes and punctuation. I won't even argue NIV and this verse is one of the reasons why.</div><div> </div><div>Go ahead, read the verse in the KJV and tell me if it reads the same. </div><div>Now you know Paul was not a trinitarian.</div><div> </div><div>Just wondering...</div><div>Genocide. Is it really evil to kill babies? Does the Quran say so? I don't want any "It is recorded that..." The Quran is your divine book. If you don't find it then it is only your opinion, regardless of how many agree with you. </div><div> </div><div>Nothing wrong with humanitarian views, and it's obvious we all have them now but it's hardly fair to force humanitarians into justifying genocide thousands of years ago. </div><div> </div><div>Idol worshippers had how many laws? Where was their morality? If they were a nation with aides what use would it be to preserve the children? Were those "poor" oxen and donkeys the subject of their worship? </div><div> </div><div>Rather than taking it upon yourselves to decide God would never do such a thing, how about why would God do it? Problem is, there is no explanation given. Does not mean there wasn't one.</div><div> </div><div>BTW, the Bible does not glorify genocide, it records it.</div><div> </div><div>Muslims say it's an honour to die in the service of Allah. Allah says C4 and ball bearings is not what I had in mind. </div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div></div><br /><br />Weber,<br />In Islam we know God as "The Just". God binds us to be just. God forbids us to take a life unless be by way of justice, i.e. a killer's, or one's who cause mischief on earth.<br />What we are talking about is that in OT God is quoted to have given commands to those who are "God's people" to kill even babies and infants, even more to kills animals, trees and so on. <br />We know that God has everything in His control and command but unjustified killings of innocent ones is something God forbids, and it is not the qualities of God to be unjust or unkind as portrayed by the OT and are a problem for anyone who claims that God is Just and loving.<br />Hasan</div> <br /> well said.]]>
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   <pubDate>Fri, 04 Jan 2013 04:32:03 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? :     Originally posted by islamispeaceIn...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24200&amp;PID=172258#172258</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71676">Webber</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 03 January 2013 at 9:43pm<br /><br /><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><font size="3"><font face="Calibri"><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by islamispeace</strong></em><br /><br />In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent,the Merciful...<?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p></font></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><font face="Calibri"><font size="3">So, the point of this rant is...you will avoid answering thequestion.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">&nbsp; </span>You were the one who insistedthat we rely on the KJV to better understand the meaning of Titus 2:13.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">&nbsp; </span>I did that, but then showed that this tacticbackfires because there are other verses which purportedly point to Jesus'alleged "divinity" or to the trinity.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">&nbsp;</span>Instead of responding to this argument, you went off on tangents.</div><o:p></o:p></font></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><font size="3"><font face="Calibri">The point of the “rant” is, you asked for an explanation ofTitus 2:13, then said it opens another can of worms that you are very familiarwith. The plan was to rehash an old argument you had with someone else to seeif I knew as much about it? Or just to go over arguments you believe you’ve wonbefore regardless of the original topic?</font></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><font size="3"><font face="Calibri"><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Webber</strong></em><br /><br />At least you know the "trinity"didn't include Mary, or did it? So it's not your amount of knowledge thatsflawed, just your opinion. It's not your fault you can't read what's written,you've been told what to believe.</div><span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">&nbsp;</span><o:p></o:p></font></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><font face="Calibri"><font size="3"><div class="BBquote">Isn't it funny how you just criticized me for"going off topic" and yet here we are 10 seconds later withyou...going off topic!<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">&nbsp; </span></div><o:p></o:p></font></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><font size="3"><font face="Calibri">Just a quick response to your off topic. The trinity theoryis flawed from the start. We'll get to that some day.</font></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><font face="Calibri"><font size="3"><span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">&nbsp;</span><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Webber</strong></em><br /><br />If youreally are that knowledgable then you would also know Muhammad once said"Don't quote me on anything that isn't in the Quran. You also have hadith.Some start with "It is recorded that" and some should start with Onceupon a time. Problem is you can't tell the difference. Even the Sunnah is notofficially considered as the Divine words of God. These things only addconfusion to Muslims and those they are trying to teach.</div><o:p></o:p></font></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><font size="3"><font face="Calibri"><div class="BBquote">Again going off topic?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">&nbsp; </span>You are all over the place!<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">&nbsp; </span><o:p></o:p></font></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><font face="Calibri"><font size="3">The fact is that you don't get to tell Muslims what they canand cannot use.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">&nbsp; </span>The majority of Muslimsrely on both the Quran and Sunnah, so you can be sure that we will useboth.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">&nbsp; </span>If you don't like it, toobad.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">&nbsp; </span></div><o:p></o:p></font></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><font size="3"><font face="Calibri">I didn’t, Muhammad did. You said Sunnah and I responded. It’samazing how much the Quran says that gets hadithed away. <o:p></o:p></font></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><font size="3"><font face="Calibri"><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Webber</strong></em><br /><br />Yeah, I get the don't kill your own kids forfear of poverty, but missed the "during a war" part. Get the feelingyou just added that for effect.</div><o:p></o:p></font></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><font face="Calibri"><font size="3"><div class="BBquote">See point #3.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">&nbsp;</span>I know you would love to determine what Muslims can use for guidance,but you don't get to decide that Sheik Webber!</div> <o:p></o:p></font></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><font size="3"><font face="Calibri">Wow, just got here and I’m already a sheik, not bad. Thot I’dbe stuck a newbie for much longer. I can’t determine what you use for guidance,but there’s no end to it if you can pull stories out of a hat. <o:p></o:p></font></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><o:p><font size="3" face="Calibri">&nbsp;</font></o:p></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><font size="3"><font face="Calibri"><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Webber</strong></em><br /><br />Of course there's nothing humanitarian aboutgenocide, the question was is it evil. The next question would be, Is God ahumanitarian? God does not look at human life the way we humanitarians do. Isit a good idea to squeeze God into our modern day ideals?</div><o:p></o:p></font></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><font face="Calibri"><font size="3"><div class="BBquote">Wow.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">&nbsp; </span>So youare questioning whether genocide is "evil".<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">&nbsp; </span>I would think that all God-fearing peoplewould immediately say "YES!".<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">&nbsp; </span></div><o:p></o:p></font></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><font size="3"><font face="Calibri">Didn’t say I was questioning it, the question was asked backon the first page. I’m not going to remain a very good sheik if you keeptwisting my words.<o:p></o:p></font></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><font face="Calibri"><font size="3"><div class="BBquote">So, do you also think that the various genocides thathave occurred throughout human history cannot be necessarily regarded as"evil"?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">&nbsp; </span>Hitler claimed he wasdoing God's work ("divine providence").<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">&nbsp; </span>Did the fact that he brought God into it makehis genocide to be excusable?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">&nbsp; </span>Or do you,like most human beings, see the man and his work as being pure evil which hadnothing to do with God?</div><o:p></o:p></font></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><font size="3"><font face="Calibri">Rhetorical. Does every bombing that happens in the name ofAllah really have to do with Allah? <o:p></o:p></font></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><font size="3"><font face="Calibri"><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Webber</strong></em><br /><br />Don't be shocked, how many didn't have aids,or STDs/we. Not excuses, possibilities unknown for lack of records. Wrongplace, wrong time, inheritance of land is a gimme. Add to that a nation bent ondoing everything wrong every time God, (or Moses) turn around makes me wonderwhy God let them last so long.</div><o:p></o:p></font></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><font face="Calibri"><font size="3"><div class="BBquote">You are not presenting any facts, just speculationand assumptions.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">&nbsp; </span>In other words, justmore (possible) excuses.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">&nbsp; </span></div> <o:p></o:p></font></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><font size="3"><font face="Calibri">So you must have all the facts.<o:p></o:p></font></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><o:p><font size="3" face="Calibri">&nbsp;</font></o:p></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><font face="Calibri"><font size="3"><div class="BBquote">One wonders why if God intended to given theIsraelites control of the land, children and babies...and animals...indeedentire nations, still had to be destroyed?<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">&nbsp;</span>That is where excuse #2 comes in; the excuse that the inhabitants of theHoly Land could entice the Israelites to commit sin.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">&nbsp; </span>So, instead of making the Israelitesresponsible for their own actions, instead the inhabitants are killed offbecause of the possibility that the Israelites would willingly follow in theircustoms.</div><o:p></o:p></font></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><font face="Calibri"><font size="3"><span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">&nbsp;</span>So you don’t have allthe facts?<o:p></o:p></font></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><o:p><font size="3" face="Calibri">&nbsp;</font></o:p></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><font size="3"><font face="Calibri"><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Webber</strong></em><br /><br />So it's recorded that God commands it. How isthat glorified? None of us know all the reason, nor the mind of God. You wereexpecting me to come up with why our humanitarian God would do such athing?</div><span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">&nbsp;&nbsp; </span><o:p></o:p></font></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><font size="3"><font face="Calibri"><div class="BBquote">Umm, saying things like "the people shall beafraid", "sorrow shall take hold..." and "all theinhabitants shall melt away" certainly sounds like a glorification of thebrutality to come.</div><o:p></o:p></font></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><font size="3"><font face="Calibri">I guess that would depend on whether you envision an authorstanding on a hilltop declaring these statements while waving a flag, or asober author writing down the predicted outcome.<o:p></o:p></font></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><o:p><font size="3" face="Calibri">&nbsp;</font></o:p></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><font size="3"><font face="Calibri"><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Webber</strong></em><br /><br /><o:p></o:p></font></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><font size="3"><font face="Calibri">Actually you showed me where it says don't kill your own,nothing in the references said anything about war. If you want to believe it'sbetween the lines it's up to you. Not going to condemn you for it, after all,none of these discussions should be the difference between heaven and hell forany of us.</div><o:p></o:p></font></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><font size="3"><font face="Calibri"><strong>So now Islamispeace turns to his supposed audience and giveshis closing&nbsp;statement for all, or whoever to hear.</strong> <o:p></o:p></font></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><font face="Calibri"><font size="3"><span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">&nbsp;</span><div class="BBquote">So far,Webber has not offered any substantive rebuttal.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">&nbsp; </span>Rather, he has changed topics whenever hefelt like it and threw in what I can only assume were attempted jabs (such asthe 72 virgins gag ).</div> <o:p></o:p></font></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><o:p><font size="3" face="Calibri">&nbsp;May as well add...</font></o:p></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><font face="Calibri"><font size="3"><div class="BBquote">I guess I shouldn't be surprised.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">&nbsp; </span>People like you are a dime a dozen...theself-appointed Islamic scholar wannabes who think they have figured out whatIslam is all about.<span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">&nbsp;&nbsp; </span></div><o:p></o:p></font></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font><p style="margin: 0cm 0cm 10pt;" ="Ms&#111;normal"><font size="3"><font face="Calibri">I’m with ya buddy! Two dimes in a dozen. <span style="mso-spacerun: yes;">&nbsp;</span>There’s always a self-appointed Islamicscholar wannabe who tells the Christians where they stand on every site. <o:p></o:p></font></font></p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman"></font>]]>
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   <pubDate>Thu, 03 Jan 2013 21:43:17 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? : In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent,...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=53418">islamispeace</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 03 January 2013 at 7:54pm<br /><br />In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Webber</strong></em><br /><br />Well, if you are fully aware of the arguments of both sides we don't really have to go over it, not to mention it is a typical Muslim strategy to go off topic in an effort to flood Christians with questions. Of course they have to answer them all right&nbsp;or else. It's a High five, down low, too slow, ha you loose, Christians all wrong, Muslims all right attitude that comes next. Let's not forget, you are not here to learn. By the same token, I am not hear to learn about the typical&nbsp;Muslim bias. Any Islamic website will give you that, which is in contrast to the Muslims I asssociate with, work with, and have worshipped with. Yes, I said worshipped with.</div><br><br>So, the point of this rant is...you will avoid answering the question.&nbsp; You were the one who insisted that we rely on the KJV to better understand the meaning of Titus 2:13.&nbsp; I did that, but then showed that this tactic backfires because there are other verses which purportedly point to Jesus' alleged "divinity" or to the trinity.&nbsp; Instead of responding to this argument, you went off on tangents.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Webber</strong></em><br /><br />At least you know the "trinity" didn't include Mary, or did it? So it's not your amount of knowledge thats flawed, just your opinion. It's not your fault you can't read what's written, you've been told what to believe.</div>&nbsp; <br><br><img src="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif" border="0" align="absmiddle" alt="LOL" /> Isn't it funny how you just criticized me for "going off topic" and yet here we are 10 seconds later with you...going off topic!&nbsp; <br><br>Do you want to discuss the absurd Christian propaganda about Mary and the trinity?&nbsp; This is not the place.&nbsp; Open a separate thread and we will discuss it there. <br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Webber</strong></em><br /><br />If you really are that knowledgable then you would also know Muhammad once said "Don't quote me on anything that isn't in the Quran. You also have hadith. Some start with "It is recorded that" and some should start with Once upon a time. Problem is you can't tell the difference. Even the Sunnah is not officially considered as the Divine words of God. These things only add confusion to Muslims and those they are trying to teach.</div><br><br>Again going off topic?&nbsp; You are all over the place!&nbsp; <br><br>The fact is that you don't get to tell Muslims what they can and cannot use.&nbsp; The majority of Muslims rely on both the Quran and Sunnah, so you can be sure that we will use both.&nbsp; If you don't like it, too bad.&nbsp; <br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Webber</strong></em><br /><br />Yeah, I get the don't kill your own kids for fear of poverty, but missed the "during a war" part. Get the feeling you just added that for effect.</div><br><br>See point #3.&nbsp; I know you would love to determine what Muslims can use for guidance, but you don't get to decide that Sheik Webber!<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Webber</strong></em><br /><br />Of course there's nothing humanitarian about genocide, the question was is it evil. The next question would be, Is God a humanitarian? God does not look at human life the way we humanitarians do. Is it a good idea to squeeze God into our modern day ideals?</div><br><br>Wow.&nbsp; So you are questioning whether genocide is "evil".&nbsp; I would think that all God-fearing people would immediately say "YES!".&nbsp; <br><br>So, do you also think that the various genocides that have occurred throughout human history cannot be necessarily regarded as "evil"?&nbsp; Hitler claimed he was doing God's work ("divine providence").&nbsp; Did the fact that he brought God into it make his genocide to be excusable?&nbsp; Or do you, like most human beings, see the man and his work as being pure evil which had nothing to do with God?&nbsp; <br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Webber</strong></em><br /><br />Don't be shocked, how many didn't have aids, or STDs/we. Not excuses, possibilities unknown for lack of records. Wrong place, wrong time, inheritance of land is a gimme. Add to that a nation bent on doing everything wrong every time God, (or Moses) turn around makes me wonder why God let them last so long.</div><br><br>You are not presenting any facts, just speculation and assumptions.&nbsp; In other words, just more (possible) excuses.&nbsp; <br><br>One wonders why if God intended to given the Israelites control of the land, children and babies...and animals...indeed entire nations, still had to be destroyed?&nbsp; That is where excuse #2 comes in; the excuse that the inhabitants of the Holy Land could entice the Israelites to commit sin.&nbsp; So, instead of making the Israelites responsible for their own actions, instead the inhabitants are killed off because of the possibility that the Israelites would willingly follow in their customs. <br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Webber</strong></em><br /><br />So it's recorded that God commands it. How is that glorified? None of us know all the reason, nor the mind of God. You were expecting me to come up with why our humanitarian God would do such a thing?</div> &nbsp; <br><br>Umm, saying things like "the people shall be afraid", "sorrow shall take hold..." and "all the inhabitants shall melt away" certainly sounds like a glorification of the brutality to come.<br><br>We already know the "reason".&nbsp; In fact, there were two, as I already pointed out.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Webber</strong></em><br /><br /><div>With 72 virgins...I like tossing that in the mix too.</div><div>&nbsp;</div>Actually you showed me where it says don't kill your own, nothing in the references said anything about war. If you want to believe it's between the lines it's up to you. Not going to condemn you for it, after all, none of these discussions&nbsp;should be the difference between heaven and hell for any of us.</div><br><br><img src="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif" border="0" align="absmiddle" alt="LOL" /> So far, Webber has not offered any substantive rebuttal.&nbsp; Rather, he has changed topics whenever he felt like it and threw in what I can only assume were attempted jabs (such as the 72 virgins gag <img src="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/smileys/smiley32.gif" border="0" align="absmiddle" alt="Clap" />).&nbsp; <br><br>I guess I shouldn't be surprised.&nbsp; People like you are a dime a dozen...the self-appointed Islamic scholar wannabes who think they have figured out what Islam is all about. &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; <br><br>]]>
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   <pubDate>Thu, 03 Jan 2013 19:54:11 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? : In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent,...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=53418">islamispeace</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 03 January 2013 at 7:29pm<br /><br />In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Placid</strong></em><br /><br />Response: --- This is plainly stated in Matthew 1:<br>21 And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.”<br>--- So when you say, “the Lord is salvation,” --- then you focus on the One who fulfilled the role of bringing salvation to mankind. <br>Then you can say “The Lord (Jesus) is salvation.”<br>--- If you say, “God saves” then you are confirming the verse that says, “God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself.” <br>Then if you say, “God saves,”  and “The Lord (Jesus) is Salvation, ---  you might get around to the faulty conclusion, that Jesus and God are One and the Same.</div><br><br>All this shows is that the author of Matthew either did not know the etymology of the name or he deliberately changed the meaning.&nbsp; <br><br>Your claims above once again point to your violation of the 1st commandment.&nbsp; You say "The Lord (Jesus) is salvation", but that is not what the name means!&nbsp; It literally means "God is salvation".&nbsp; God is "the Lord" in "The Lord is salvation", so how can you replace Him with Jesus?&nbsp; <br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Placid</strong></em><br /><br />It says in John 3:16 “For God so loved the (people of) the world that He gave His only begotten (Unique) Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.<br>17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him (Jesus) might be saved.<br>18 “He who believes in Him (Jesus) is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. <br>19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. <br>20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. <br>21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”<br><br>--- (Notice that this is what God said in the Scripture, so if you disagree with God’s word, then your argument is with Him, not with me.</div> &nbsp;&nbsp; <br><br>I don't consider the NT to be "scripture".&nbsp; It is not "God's Word".&nbsp; <br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Placid</strong></em><br /><br />--- So, “God saves,” or “The Lord is Salvation” verifies that Jesus was the Savior, because “The Salvation of God, came through Jesus.”</div>&nbsp; <br><br>I have no idea where you are getting this shaky logic from.&nbsp; First, you made a false claim about the name of the name "Jesus".&nbsp; Then, when you were refuted, you resorted to convoluted logic to make Jesus the "Lord" in the meaning of his name.&nbsp; What?!&nbsp; <br><br>As I said, salvation only comes from God.&nbsp; Even Jesus' name says that clearly.&nbsp; Yet you still insist that Jesus is your "savior" when in reality, it is God who is "Savior".&nbsp; <br>]]>
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   <pubDate>Thu, 03 Jan 2013 19:29:57 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? : Hi Webber,Quote: As for Titus...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71448">Placid</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 03 January 2013 at 5:07pm<br /><br />Hi Webber,<br /><br />Quote: As for Titus 2:13, read the King James version, or earlier. <br />Go ahead, read the verse in the KJV and tell me if it reads the same. <br /><br />Response: --- I wonder why you are suggesting others read a certain verse without writing it out and making the point you are suggesting.<br />--- It is written plainly: <br />12 Teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly, in this present world;<br /> 13 “Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;  <br />14 Who gave himself for us, that he might redeem us from all iniquity, and purify unto himself a peculiar people, zealous of good works.”<br />--- (The word ‘our’ was in the manuscripts, from which the Latin Vulgate was translated before 400 AD, --- the evidence is that it says “our Savior” in the Douay version, which was translated in 1600, from the Latin Vulgate. --- As well, the King James, which was translated from Greek Manuscripts, and published in 1611, says, “our Saviour.”)<br /><br />There are depths of meaning to this verse that the unbelieving will not understand anyway. --- But if we do make a comparison to the NIV, we can understand that there is an extra emphasis on the word ‘glory.’<br />--- The first thing is to notice that verses 12 to 14 are one sentence. --- In the KJV it separates the verses with a semicolon after world: --- and after Jesus Christ; --- (meaning: --- “A semicolon is used to separate complete thoughts within a sentence”) --- and verse 14 then identifies Him, --- ‘Jesus Christ, who gave Himself for us.’<br /><br />Compare the NIV:<br />12 --- It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age,<br />13 while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, <br />14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, --- eager to do what is good.<br /><br />--- Notice: the NIV uses commas, instead of semicolons to separate the verses, (even adding an important comma after Savior).--- So, if we remove the numbers which were not in the Greek Manuscripts, and put the emphasis on “glory”, where the NIV places it, --- it would read like this from verse --- NIV, 11-14:<br /><br />For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. --- It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the “glory” of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.<br /><br />Notice: --- While the KJV uses the term ‘glorious appearing’, --- the NIV emphasizes the noun ‘glory’, --- when it says, “The appearing of the GLORY of our great God and Savior--- do you see the difference? <br />Was it the ‘glorious appearing of God (who can’t be seen by men)? --- Or was it the ‘appearance of the Glory of God,’ --- through Jesus Christ who can be seen by men? --- And who we look forward to seeing in the ‘finality’ of the age. <br /><br />--- Since God cannot be seen, His GLORY was revealed through Jesus Christ. --- Look at these verses that John, who was an eyewitness, wrote, in John 1:<br />14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.<br />16 And of His fullness we have all received, and grace for grace. <br />17 For the law was given through Moses, but grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. <br />18 No one has seen God at any time. The only begotten (Unique, One of a kind) Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, He has declared (revealed) Him.<br /><br />Compare this also from the ‘J B Phillips,’ (a good contemporary version), 11-14<br />For the grace of God, which can save every man, has now become known, and it teaches us to have no more to do with godlessness or the desires of this world but to live, here and now, responsible, honourable and God-fearing lives. And while we live this life we hope and wait for the glorious denouement of the Great God and of Jesus Christ our saviour. For he gave himself for us all, that he might rescue us from all our evil ways and make for himself a people of his own, clean and pure, with our hearts set upon living a life that is good.<br /><br />Do you like that word --- “ denouement”? --- It means: ‘the unraveling of the mystery’ or ‘the final revealing’ --- of the great God, and of Jesus Christ our Saviour. --- For He gave Himself for us all ---. <br />--- This “Final Revealing” will be when Jesus will return. <br /><br /><br />Placid<br /><br />]]>
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   <pubDate>Thu, 03 Jan 2013 17:07:03 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? :   Originally posted by honetoWeber, In...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24200&amp;PID=172249#172249</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71676">Webber</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 03 January 2013 at 1:28pm<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by honeto</strong></em><br /><br /><br>Weber,<br>In Islam we know God as "The Just". God binds us to be just. God forbids us to take a life unless be by way of justice, i.e. a killer's, or one's who cause mischief on earth.<br>What we are talking about is that in OT God is quoted to have given commands to those who are "God's people" to kill even babies and infants, even more to kills animals, trees and so on. <br>We know that God has everything in His control and command but unjustified killings of innocent ones is something God forbids, and it is not the qualities of God to be unjust or unkind as portrayed by the OT and are a problem for anyone who claims that God is Just and loving.<br>Hasan</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>Hi Honeto, I know exactly what you are saying. The trouble is we, in our own minds could never justify genocide, how could we have a God that commanded it? Best answer is, we don't know. We're talking about the same God who blew up two ajoining cities and destroyed everyone except Lot and who he could get out in time. We're talking about a God who covered the earth with water and destroyed everything except who and what Noah could get into an ark. </div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>There's a really good chance God does not look at human life in the same way we do. Go figure, we only get one. </div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>Two things: </div><div>I don't believe that every reference that could be construed as God in the OT&nbsp;is always God Almighty. God created too many angels and servents to do all the work Himself. </div><div>Secondly, it also depends on how the witnesses and author understood the event as to how it was recorded.</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>So what is the final verdict on this? Do we insist God plays by our rules and this scripture&nbsp;must be&nbsp;a complete fabrication? Do we take it for what it's worth and hope it never happens to us? Do we gather around the wrath of God and go looking for those He might like destroyed? </div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>I just thought it entertaining the Christians were responsible for answering.</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>&nbsp;</div>]]>
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   <pubDate>Thu, 03 Jan 2013 13:28:06 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? :   Just got done watching a program...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=69566">Caringheart</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 02 January 2013 at 2:56pm<br /><br />Just got done watching a program which talked about how the book of 1 Samuel from the talmud was more of the epic hero tale, embellished for effect.<br>While the same story is told in a much different way in the book of Judges.<br><br>We're all connected to our tainted pasts.  The point is whether or not we evolve.]]>
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   <pubDate>Wed, 02 Jan 2013 14:56:46 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? :  Originally posted by WebberLOL@&#160;16...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=59438">honeto</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 02 January 2013 at 2:49pm<br /><br /> <div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Webber</strong></em><br /><br /><br /><br />LOL@ 16 pages of contempt for Christians not giving the "right" answers. <div> </div><div>As for Titus 2:13, read the King James version, or earlier. </div><div>IMHO English translations/transliterations since then have added the beliefs of the "scholar" through subtle changes and punctuation. I won't even argue NIV and this verse is one of the reasons why.</div><div> </div><div>Go ahead, read the verse in the KJV and tell me if it reads the same. </div><div>Now you know Paul was not a trinitarian.</div><div> </div><div>Just wondering...</div><div>Genocide. Is it really evil to kill babies? Does the Quran say so? I don't want any "It is recorded that..." The Quran is your divine book. If you don't find it then it is only your opinion, regardless of how many agree with you. </div><div> </div><div>Nothing wrong with humanitarian views, and it's obvious we all have them now but it's hardly fair to force humanitarians into justifying genocide thousands of years ago. </div><div> </div><div>Idol worshippers had how many laws? Where was their morality? If they were a nation with aides what use would it be to preserve the children? Were those "poor" oxen and donkeys the subject of their worship? </div><div> </div><div>Rather than taking it upon yourselves to decide God would never do such a thing, how about why would God do it? Problem is, there is no explanation given. Does not mean there wasn't one.</div><div> </div><div>BTW, the Bible does not glorify genocide, it records it.</div><div> </div><div>Muslims say it's an honour to die in the service of Allah. Allah says C4 and ball bearings is not what I had in mind. </div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div><div> </div></div><br /><br />Weber,<br />In Islam we know God as "The Just". God binds us to be just. God forbids us to take a life unless be by way of justice, i.e. a killer's, or one's who cause mischief on earth.<br />What we are talking about is that in OT God is quoted to have given commands to those who are "God's people" to kill even babies and infants, even more to kills animals, trees and so on. <br />We know that God has everything in His control and command but unjustified killings of innocent ones is something God forbids, and it is not the qualities of God to be unjust or unkind as portrayed by the OT and are a problem for anyone who claims that God is Just and loving.<br />Hasan ]]>
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   <pubDate>Wed, 02 Jan 2013 14:49:20 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? :   Originally posted by islamispeaceIn...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24200&amp;PID=172202#172202</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71676">Webber</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 01 January 2013 at 3:36pm<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by islamispeace</strong></em><br /><br />In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Webber</strong></em><br /><br /><div>As for Titus 2:13, read the King James version, or earlier. </div><div>IMHO&nbsp;English translations/transliterations since then have&nbsp;added the beliefs of the "scholar" through subtle changes and punctuation. I won't even argue NIV and this verse is one of the reasons why.</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>Go ahead, read the verse in the KJV and tell me if it reads the same. </div><div>Now you know Paul was not a trinitarian.</div></div><br><br><div class="BBquote">Well, well, well!&nbsp; We have a "KJV-only" Christian on the forum!&nbsp; The wording in the KJV is certainly different.&nbsp; But that opens up a whole new can of worms for you.&nbsp; Now you have to explain the following verse:<br><br><font color="#0000ff">"<span id="en-KJV-30632">For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.</span>" (1 John 5:7)</font><br><br>This is from the KJV.&nbsp; Do tell how a non-trinitarian such as yourself (bravo by the way) explains this verse which clearly refers to a trinitarian doctrine.&nbsp; <br><br>P.S. I am fully aware of the controversy surrounding this verse, as I mentioned above to Placid.</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>Well, if you are fully aware of the arguments of both sides we don't really have to go over it, not to mention it is a typical Muslim strategy to go off topic in an effort to flood Christians with questions. Of course they have to answer them all right&nbsp;or else. It's a High five, down low, too slow, ha you loose, Christians all wrong, Muslims all right attitude that comes next. Let's not forget, you are not here to learn. By the same token, I am not hear to learn about the typical&nbsp;Muslim bias. Any Islamic website will give you that, which is in contrast to the Muslims I asssociate with, work with, and have worshipped with. Yes, I said worshipped with.</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>&nbsp;At least you know the "trinity" didn't include Mary, or did it? So it's not your amount of knowledge thats flawed, just your opinion. It's not your fault you can't read what's written, you've been told what to believe.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Webber</strong></em><br /><br />Just wondering...<div>Genocide. Is it really evil to kill babies? Does the Quran say so? I don't want any "It is recorded that..." The Quran is your&nbsp;divine book. If you don't find it then it is only your opinion, regardless of how many agree with you. </div><div></div></div> &nbsp; <br><div class="BBquote"><br><img src="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif" border="0" align="absmiddle" alt="LOL" /> Oh boy.&nbsp; We have another Christian who wants to tell Muslims what sources they can and cannot use!&nbsp; Sorry to disappoint you Sheik Webber, but Muslims have two primary sources, the Quran and the Sunnah.&nbsp; You don't get to tell us which we may use.</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>If you really are that knowledgable then you would also know Muhammad once said "Don't quote me on anything that isn't in the Quran. You also have hadith. Some start with "It is recorded that" and some should start with Once upon a time. Problem is you can't tell the difference. Even the Sunnah is not officially considered as the Divine words of God. These things only add confusion to Muslims and those they are trying to teach. </div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div><div class="BBquote">Having said this, may I present the following:<br><br>1.&nbsp; The Quran actually prohibits the killing of children for fear of poverty:<br><br><font color="#333300">"Kill not your children for fear of want: We shall provide sustenance for them as well as for you. Verily the killing of them is a great sin." (17:31)</font>&nbsp; <br><br>2.&nbsp; It also prohibits the pagan Arab practice of killing newborn girls:<br><br><font color="#333300">"When the female (infant), buried alive, is questioned - For what crime she was killed;" (80:8-9)</font><br><br>3.&nbsp; The Sunnah also explicitly states that it is forbidden to kill women and children:<br><br><font color="#333300">"It is narrated by Ibn 'Umar that a woman was found killed in one of these battles; so the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) forbade the killing of women and children." (Sahih Muslim, Book 19, Number 4320)</font><br><br>So Sheik Webber, both the Quran and Sunnah prohibit the killing of children and babies, whether it is due to a fear of poverty or or during a war.</div></div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>Yeah, I get the don't kill your own kids for fear of poverty, but missed the "during a war" part. Get the feeling you just added that for effect.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Webber</strong></em><br /><br />Nothing wrong with humanitarian views, and it's obvious we all have them now but it's hardly fair to force humanitarians into justifying genocide thousands of years ago.</div><br><br><div class="BBquote">The problem is that there is nothing "humanitarian" about genocide.&nbsp; Not one Christian has stated that they find the genocide mentioned in the Bible as evil.&nbsp; Rather, they have all tried to come up with excuses, whereas others have stated that they accept that the slaughter happened but do not understand why it was allowed.</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>Of course there's nothing humanitarian about genocide, the question was is it evil. The next question would be, Is God a humanitarian? God does not look at human life the way we humanitarians do. Is it a good idea to squeeze God into our modern day ideals?<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Webber</strong></em><br /><br />Idol worshippers had how many laws? Where was their morality? If they were a nation with aides what use would it be to preserve the children? Were those "poor" oxen and donkeys the subject of their worship?</div><br><br><div class="BBquote">Ah, more excuse making.&nbsp; What a shock...<br><br>How many of the nations that were slaughtered had AIDS?&nbsp; <img src="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/smileys/smiley5.gif" border="0" align="absmiddle" alt="C&#111;nfused" /><br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Webber</strong></em><br /><br />Rather than taking it upon yourselves to decide God would never do such a thing, how about why would God do it? Problem is, there is no explanation given. Does not mean there wasn't one.<br><br><div class="BBquote">Actually, there was an "explanation" given:<br><br><font color="#0000ff">"<span id="en-KJV-5444">But of the cities of these people, which the <span style="font-variant: small-caps;">Lord</span> thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:</span> </font><p><font color="#0000ff"><span id="en-KJV-5445"><sup>17&nbsp;</sup>But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the <span style="font-variant: small-caps;">Lord</span> thy God hath commanded thee:</span></font></p><div><font color="#0000ff"> </font></div><p><font color="#0000ff"><span id="en-KJV-5446"><sup>18&nbsp;</sup>That they teach you not to do after all their abominations, which they have done unto their gods; so should ye sin against the <span style="font-variant: small-caps;">Lord</span> your God.</span>" (Deuteronomy 20:16-18)</font><br></p><div>As you can see, there are two reasons given for the slaughter:<br><br>1.&nbsp; The land on which these nations lived was given to the Israelites as an "inheritance", and,<br><br>2.&nbsp; They were to be killed so that they would not entice the Israelites to sin.<br><br>So apparently, these nations were obviously in the wrong place at the wrong time and were also being help responsible for the possibility that the Israelites might sin because of them.&nbsp; Never mind that if the Israelites did sin, it would be their own fault.&nbsp;</div></div></div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>Don't be shocked, how many didn't have aids, or STDs/we. Not excuses, possibilities unknown for lack of records. Wrong place, wrong time, inheritance of land is a gimme. Add to that a nation bent on doing everything wrong every time God, (or Moses) turn around makes me wonder why God let them last so long. <br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Webber</strong></em><br /><br />BTW, the Bible does not glorify genocide, it&nbsp;records it.</div><br><br>The Bible does not simply "record" genocide.&nbsp; It states that it was commanded by God.&nbsp; Even prior to the start of the genocide, the people inhabiting the land were threatened with annihilation:<br><br>"<span id="en-KJV-1935">The people shall hear, and be afraid: sorrow shall take hold on the <font color="#0000ff">inhabitants of Palestina.</font></span><font color="#0000ff"> </font></div><p><font color="#0000ff"><span id="en-KJV-1936"><sup>15&nbsp;</sup>Then the dukes of Edom shall be amazed; the mighty men of Moab, trembling shall take hold upon them; all the inhabitants of Canaan shall melt away.</span></font></p><div><font color="#0000ff"> </font></div><p><font color="#0000ff"><span id="en-KJV-1937"><sup>16&nbsp;</sup>Fear and dread shall fall upon them; by the greatness of thine arm they shall be as still as a stone; till thy people pass over, O <span style="font-variant: small-caps;">Lord</span>, till the people pass over, which thou hast purchased.</span></font></p><div><font color="#0000ff"> </font></div><p><font color="#0000ff"><span id="en-KJV-1938"><sup>17&nbsp;</sup>Thou shalt bring them in, and plant them in the mountain of thine inheritance, in the place, O <span style="font-variant: small-caps;">Lord</span>, which thou hast made for thee to dwell in, in the Sanctuary, O <span style="font-variant: small-caps;">Lord</span>, which thy hands have established.</span>" (Exodus 15:14-17)&#091;<font>/quote&#093;</p><div></font></font>So it's recorded that God commands it. How is that glorified? None of us know all the reason, nor the mind of God. You were expecting me to come up with why our humanitarian God would do such a thing? </div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Webber</strong></em><br /><br />Muslims say it's an honour to die in the service of Allah. Allah says C4 and ball bearings is not what I had in mind.</div><br>&#091;quote&#093;<br><img src="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif" border="0" align="absmiddle" alt="LOL" /> Well, one thing is clear from these discussions.&nbsp; Many of you Christians are not very original!&nbsp; Most of the other Christians who have posted on this thread have also tried to divert the topic from the Bible's stories of genocide to what some Muslims do in the present day.&nbsp; Thus, Webber takes the same route.</div></div><div>Yeah, I always like to toss those things in just to see where people go with it. Thanks for not going off the deep end, :)<br><br>&#091;quote&#093;As I showed above, Islam categorically prohibits killing civilians.&nbsp; It only allows fighting in self-defense and only against those who wage war against us.&nbsp; Therefore, those Muslims who die fighting against their oppressors are martyrs who will be in Allah's presence in Paradise, inshaAllah.</div></div></div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>With 72 virgins...I like tossing that in the mix too.</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>Actually you showed me where it says don't kill your own, nothing in the references said anything about war. If you want to believe it's between the lines it's up to you. Not going to condemn you for it, after all, none of these discussions&nbsp;should be the difference between heaven and hell for any of us. <br></div><div>&nbsp;</div>]]>
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   <pubDate>Tue, 01 Jan 2013 15:36:50 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? : Hi Islam, Quote: By the way,...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24200&amp;PID=172195#172195</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71448">Placid</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 01 January 2013 at 1:10pm<br /><br />Hi Islam, <br /><br />Quote: By the way, I already pointed out before that the name "Jesus" does not mean "savior".  I don't know where you are getting this from.  It actually means "God saves" or "Yahweh saves".  Put another way, it means "The Lord is Salvation"<br /><br />Response: --- This is plainly stated in Matthew 1:<br />21 And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.”<br />--- So when you say, “the Lord is salvation,” --- then you focus on the One who fulfilled the role of bringing salvation to mankind. <br />Then you can say “The Lord (Jesus) is salvation.”<br />--- If you say, “God saves” then you are confirming the verse that says, “God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself.” <br />Then if you say, “God saves,”  and “The Lord (Jesus) is Salvation, ---  you might get around to the faulty conclusion, that Jesus and God are One and the Same.<br /><br />It says in John 3:16 “For God so loved the (people of) the world that He gave His only begotten (Unique) Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.<br />17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him (Jesus) might be saved.<br />18 “He who believes in Him (Jesus) is not condemned; but he who does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. <br />19 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. <br />20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. <br />21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.”<br /><br />--- (Notice that this is what God said in the Scripture, so if you disagree with God’s word, then your argument is with Him, not with me.<br /><br />--- So, “God saves,” or “The Lord is Salvation” verifies that Jesus was the Savior, because “The Salvation of God, came through Jesus.”<br /><br /><br />Placid<br /><br /><br />]]>
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   <pubDate>Tue, 01 Jan 2013 13:10:29 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? : In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent,...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=53418">islamispeace</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 01 January 2013 at 12:38pm<br /><br />In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Webber</strong></em><br /><br /><div>As for Titus 2:13, read the King James version, or earlier. </div><div>IMHO&nbsp;English translations/transliterations since then have&nbsp;added the beliefs of the "scholar" through subtle changes and punctuation. I won't even argue NIV and this verse is one of the reasons why.</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>Go ahead, read the verse in the KJV and tell me if it reads the same. </div><div>Now you know Paul was not a trinitarian.</div></div><br><br>Well, well, well!&nbsp; We have a "KJV-only" Christian on the forum!&nbsp; The wording in the KJV is certainly different.&nbsp; But that opens up a whole new can of worms for you.&nbsp; Now you have to explain the following verse:<br><br><font color="#0000FF">"<span id="en-KJV-30632" ="text 1John-5-7">For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.</span>" (1 John 5:7)</font><br><br>This is from the KJV.&nbsp; Do tell how a non-trinitarian such as yourself (bravo by the way) explains this verse which clearly refers to a trinitarian doctrine.&nbsp; <br><br>P.S. I am fully aware of the controversy surrounding this verse, as I mentioned above to Placid.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Webber</strong></em><br /><br />Just wondering...<div>Genocide. Is it really evil to kill babies? Does the Quran say so? I don't want any "It is recorded that..." The Quran is your&nbsp;divine book. If you don't find it then it is only your opinion, regardless of how many agree with you. </div></div> &nbsp; <br><br><img src="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif" border="0" align="absmiddle" alt="LOL" /> Oh boy.&nbsp; We have another Christian who wants to tell Muslims what sources they can and cannot use!&nbsp; Sorry to disappoint you Sheik Webber, but Muslims have two primary sources, the Quran and the Sunnah.&nbsp; You don't get to tell us which we may use.&nbsp; Having said this, may I present the following:<br><br>1.&nbsp; The Quran actually prohibits the killing of children for fear of poverty:<br><br><font color="#333300">"Kill not your children for fear of want: We shall provide sustenance for them as well as for you. Verily the killing of them is a great sin." (17:31)</font>&nbsp; <br><br>2.&nbsp; It also prohibits the pagan Arab practice of killing newborn girls:<br><br><font color="#333300">"When the female (infant), buried alive, is questioned - For what crime she was killed;" (80:8-9)</font><br><br>3.&nbsp; The Sunnah also explicitly states that it is forbidden to kill women and children:<br><br><font color="#333300">"It is narrated by Ibn 'Umar that a woman was found killed in one of these battles; so the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) forbade the killing of women and children." (Sahih Muslim, Book 19, Number 4320)</font><br><br>So Sheik Webber, both the Quran and Sunnah prohibit the killing of children and babies, whether it is due to a fear of poverty or or during a war.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Webber</strong></em><br /><br />Nothing wrong with humanitarian views, and it's obvious we all have them now but it's hardly fair to force humanitarians into justifying genocide thousands of years ago.</div><br><br>The problem is that there is nothing "humanitarian" about genocide.&nbsp; Not one Christian has stated that they find the genocide mentioned in the Bible as evil.&nbsp; Rather, they have all tried to come up with excuses, whereas others have stated that they accept that the slaughter happened but do not understand why it was allowed.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Webber</strong></em><br /><br />Idol worshippers had how many laws? Where was their morality? If they were a nation with aides what use would it be to preserve the children? Were those "poor" oxen and donkeys the subject of their worship?</div><br><br>Ah, more excuse making.&nbsp; What a shock...<br><br>How many of the nations that were slaughtered had AIDS?&nbsp; <img src="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/smileys/smiley5.gif" border="0" align="absmiddle" alt="C&#111;nfused" /><br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Webber</strong></em><br /><br />Rather than taking it upon yourselves to decide God would never do such a thing, how about why would God do it? Problem is, there is no explanation given. Does not mean there wasn't one.</div><br><br>Actually, there was an "explanation" given:<br><br><font color="#0000FF">"<span id="en-KJV-5444" ="text Deut-20-16">But of the cities of these people, which the <span style="font-variant: small-caps" ="small-caps">Lord</span> thy God doth give thee for an inheritance, thou shalt save alive nothing that breatheth:</span> </font><p><font color="#0000FF"><span id="en-KJV-5445" ="text Deut-20-17"><sup ="versenum">17&nbsp;</sup>But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the <span style="font-variant: small-caps" ="small-caps">Lord</span> thy God hath commanded thee:</span></font></p><font color="#0000FF"> </font><p><font color="#0000FF"><span id="en-KJV-5446" ="text Deut-20-18"><sup ="versenum">18&nbsp;</sup>That they teach you not to do after all their abominations, which they have done unto their gods; so should ye sin against the <span style="font-variant: small-caps" ="small-caps">Lord</span> your God.</span>" (Deuteronomy 20:16-18)</font><br></p>As you can see, there are two reasons given for the slaughter:<br><br>1.&nbsp; The land on which these nations lived was given to the Israelites as an "inheritance", and,<br><br>2.&nbsp; They were to be killed so that they would not entice the Israelites to sin.<br><br>So apparently, these nations were obviously in the wrong place at the wrong time and were also being help responsible for the possibility that the Israelites might sin because of them.&nbsp; Never mind that if the Israelites did sin, it would be their own fault.&nbsp; <br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Webber</strong></em><br /><br />BTW, the Bible does not glorify genocide, it&nbsp;records it.</div><br><br>The Bible does not simply "record" genocide.&nbsp; It states that it was commanded by God.&nbsp; Even prior to the start of the genocide, the people inhabiting the land were threatened with annihilation:<br><br>"<span id="en-KJV-1935" ="text Exod-15-14">The people shall hear, and be afraid: sorrow shall take hold on the <font color="#0000FF">inhabitants of Palestina.</font></span><font color="#0000FF"> </font><p><font color="#0000FF"><span id="en-KJV-1936" ="text Exod-15-15"><sup ="versenum">15&nbsp;</sup>Then the dukes of Edom shall be amazed; the mighty men of Moab, trembling shall take hold upon them; all the inhabitants of Canaan shall melt away.</span></font></p><font color="#0000FF"> </font><p><font color="#0000FF"><span id="en-KJV-1937" ="text Exod-15-16"><sup ="versenum">16&nbsp;</sup>Fear and dread shall fall upon them; by the greatness of thine arm they shall be as still as a stone; till thy people pass over, O <span style="font-variant: small-caps" ="small-caps">Lord</span>, till the people pass over, which thou hast purchased.</span></font></p><font color="#0000FF"> </font><p><font color="#0000FF"><span id="en-KJV-1938" ="text Exod-15-17"><sup ="versenum">17&nbsp;</sup>Thou shalt bring them in, and plant them in the mountain of thine inheritance, in the place, O <span style="font-variant: small-caps" ="small-caps">Lord</span>, which thou hast made for thee to dwell in, in the Sanctuary, O <span style="font-variant: small-caps" ="small-caps">Lord</span>, which thy hands have established.</span>" (Exodus 15:14-17)</font><br></p><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Webber</strong></em><br /><br />Muslims say it's an honour to die in the service of Allah. Allah says C4 and ball bearings is not what I had in mind.</div><br><br><img src="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif" border="0" align="absmiddle" alt="LOL" /> Well, one thing is clear from these discussions.&nbsp; Many of you Christians are not very original!&nbsp; Most of the other Christians who have posted on this thread have also tried to divert the topic from the Bible's stories of genocide to what some Muslims do in the present day.&nbsp; Thus, Webber takes the same route.<br><br>As I showed above, Islam categorically prohibits killing civilians.&nbsp; It only allows fighting in self-defense and only against those who wage war against us.&nbsp; Therefore, those Muslims who die fighting against their oppressors are martyrs who will be in Allah's presence in Paradise, inshaAllah.<br>&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp; <br><br></div>]]>
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   <pubDate>Tue, 01 Jan 2013 12:38:30 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? : (To continue from above):(Jesus...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24200&amp;PID=172181#172181</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71448">Placid</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 01 January 2013 at 7:47am<br /><br />(To continue from above):<br /><br />(Jesus is still in authority and Titus 2:13 ‘reflects’ that, --- so, a little more on Titus 2):<br /><br />11 For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men, <br />12 teaching us that, denying ungodliness and worldly lusts, we should live soberly, righteously, and godly in the present age,<br /> <br />13 "looking for the blessed hope and glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ,"<br /> <br />14 who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works.<br /><br />Response: --- This portion of Scripture is good Christian teaching,<br />11 --- the grace of God --- brings salvation for all believers.<br />12 --- to live soberly, righteously, and godly lives.<br />13 --- looking forward to the ‘BLESSED HOPE’ which is, ‘a sure thing that hasn’t happened yet.’ --- You see, this is the 'assurance of salvation'.<br />--- Jesus was God’s Representative all the time He was on earth, and the ‘appearance’ of Jesus will be when we are joined with Him, either in physical death, --- or when He returns.<br /><br />14 (Is a continuation of 13 so it could read as follows): Jesus Christ, who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us.<br /><br />--- (It is interesting to note that God cannot be seen, so the "reappearing" of Jesus will represent the 'appearing' of God. <br />Jesus said in John 14:9 "He who has seen Me has seen My Father." --- And again, "I and my Father are One."<br />--- Paul did not worship Jesus but like other Christians worshipped God 'through' Jesus Christ the Savior.  <br />---Notice: in Titus 1:3, and 2:10, Paul says "God our Savior." --- Jesus left His earthly body behind when He ascended to God. Salvation is of God, but was revealed to mankind, THROUGH Jesus, the Christ.)<br /><br />--- At diferent times Jesus was worshiped as the Manifestation or Representative of God on earth, which was natural to some, because in worshiping Jesus, they were worshiping God. --- You see, ---JESUS WAS INDWELT BY THE WORD, AND SPIRIT OF GOD, --- SO, JESUS IS FROM GOD, --- NOT 'APART' FROM GOD.<br /><br />It says that ‘Wisemen’ from the East came to worship the Christ when He was born, in Matthew 2:<br />1 Now after Jesus was born in Bethlehem of Judea in the days of Herod the king, behold, wise men from the East came to Jerusalem, <br />2 saying, “Where is He who has been born King of the Jews? For we have seen His star in the East and have come to worship Him.”<br /><br />--- The “Star” was the “Sign” to the Wisemen, that Christ, the King of the Jews was born on earth.<br />Why did they want to worship Him? --- Because he represented God.  And this fulfilled the prophecy, that God would send a Messiah. --- Not just a man, but He who called Himself the Son of Man, --- but He was a Unique Person with a human body, who was indwelt by the Word (Logos) of God, and the Holy Spirit of God. <br /><br />--- And when they found that He was born in Bethlehem, --- they went there:<br /> 11 And when they had come into the house, they saw the young Child (Jesus) with Mary His mother, and fell down and worshiped Him. And when they had opened their treasures, they presented gifts to Him: gold, frankincense, and myrrh.<br /><br />--- Why did they worship Him? --- Because He was the Savior, Jesus, and the Messiah, Christ. --- He presently is seated on the right hand of the throne of God, and one day He will return to earth, to set up His earthly Kingdom.<br /><br />Quote: Jesus (pbuh) was never referred to by the name "Immanuel".  Yet, Isaiah 7:14 clearly states that the name of the child will be "Immanuel" (not Jesus).  How can this apply to Jesus?<br /><br />Response: --- Immanuel is what the Messiah was --- as it says in Matthew 1:<br />23  “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.”<br />--- Because Jesus had a human body and a Divine Spirit from God, He was called “God with us.” <br /><br />And John goes on to say in John 1: <br />14 And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father, full of grace and truth.<br /><br />(I have a few more quotes to respond to, which would make this post too long, especially since they are all off topic.)<br /><br /><br />Placid<br /><br />]]>
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   <pubDate>Tue, 01 Jan 2013 07:47:33 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? :   LOL@16 pages ofcontempt for...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24200&amp;PID=172169#172169</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71676">Webber</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 31 December 2012 at 8:02pm<br /><br />LOL@&nbsp;16 pages of&nbsp;contempt for Christians not giving the "right" answers. <div>&nbsp;</div><div>As for Titus 2:13, read the King James version, or earlier. </div><div>IMHO&nbsp;English translations/transliterations since then have&nbsp;added the beliefs of the "scholar" through subtle changes and punctuation. I won't even argue NIV and this verse is one of the reasons why.</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>Go ahead, read the verse in the KJV and tell me if it reads the same. </div><div>Now you know Paul was not a trinitarian.</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>Just wondering...</div><div>Genocide. Is it really evil to kill babies? Does the Quran say so? I don't want any "It is recorded that..." The Quran is your&nbsp;divine book. If you don't find it then it is only your opinion, regardless of how many agree with you. </div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>Nothing wrong with humanitarian views, and it's obvious we all have them now but it's hardly fair to force humanitarians into justifying genocide thousands of years ago. </div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>Idol worshippers had how many laws? Where was their morality? If they were a nation with aides what use would it be to preserve the children? Were those "poor" oxen and donkeys the subject of their worship? </div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>Rather than taking it upon yourselves to decide God would never do such a thing, how about why would God do it? Problem is, there is no explanation given. Does not mean there wasn't one.</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>BTW, the Bible does not glorify genocide, it&nbsp;records it.</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>Muslims say it's an honour to die in the service of Allah. Allah says C4 and ball bearings is not what I had in mind. </div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>&nbsp;</div>]]>
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   <pubDate>Mon, 31 Dec 2012 20:02:21 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? : In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent,...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=53418">islamispeace</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 31 December 2012 at 2:54pm<br /><br />In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Bunter</strong></em><br /><br />Here again it's all my fault, you cannot be in the wrong. By using insulting language you invalidate you arguments, such as they are, because such methods amount to a fallacy of the kind called&nbsp;"Ad Hominem" where you attack people not their arguments. But I shall say nothing more because I fear it will just be a waste of time with you.</div><br><br>Sweetheart, I have "attacked" your arguments.&nbsp; How then can I be committing an ad hominem fallacy?&nbsp; It's not my fault that you get insulted every two seconds.&nbsp; Get over yourself, please. <img src="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif" border="0" align="absmiddle" alt="LOL" /><br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Bunter</strong></em><br /><br />This just shows the absolute paucity of your answers. You quote the historical event as found in&nbsp;1 Samuel 15 as your only argument and then deny it is history - notice, without any foundation YOU decide it is not true. I ask you why would the Jews, as you allege, corrupt their own scriptures by adding this story if it were not true - you have no answer and fallback on your usual line that YOU decided it has been corrupted - no you are not interested in truth unless it's your truth.</div>&nbsp; <br><br>Have you been paying attention?&nbsp; Re-read what I wrote:<br><br><font color="#0000FF">"No, this is your own version of "history".&nbsp; Also, <u><b>if it is indeed authentic history</b></u>,<b> </b><u><b>it remains to be proven</b></u> whether the Israelites just killed everyone <u><b>because they wanted to and could OR whether they were only following God's command</b></u>.&nbsp; <br><br>It is only as "historical" as Hitler's claim that he was chosen to do the work of "Divine Providence".&nbsp; We know that Hitler killed millions of people but we don't actually buy his claim that he was only doing God's work, do we?"</font><br><br>I stated that if the events in question are indeed historically accurate, it still remains to be proven whether the order to kill every living thing actually came from God OR if the Israelites killed everyone themselves.&nbsp; I point this out because God said prior to these events:<br><br><font color="#0000FF">"<span id="en-NIV-2065" ="text Exod-20-13">You shall not murder.</span>" (Exodus 20:13)</font><br><br>How interesting it is that, on the one hand, God says do not commit murder and then on the other hand, He says "kill everything".&nbsp; <br><br>I also pointed out that it is possible that the Jews simply put these stories into the text to scare their enemies.&nbsp; However, I also stated that it is absurd to ask what was going on in the minds of people who lived thousands of years ago:<br><br><font color="#0000FF">"Obviously, the people who put these verses into the text could have done so for many reasons, <u><b>including to scare their enemies</b></u>.&nbsp; I don't know the exact reason and it is absurd of you to ask what was going on in the minds of people who lived thousands of years ago."</font><br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Bunter</strong></em><br /><br />Next, I am not approving the killing of babies, I am saying, and have said repeatedly, I accept it as history but cannot explain it or attempt to justify it, it is as we say closed off</div><br><br>By taking this route, you are indirectly "approving" of it because even if you don't try to "justify" it, you believe that since God ordered it, then you must accept it.&nbsp; That is the same as "approving" it.&nbsp; Suppose I said to you that I can't "explain" or "justify" why Hitler killed millions of Jews and others, but I believed his claim that he was carrying out God's will and that I accept it.&nbsp; How would you react?&nbsp; Would you be sickened?&nbsp; Would you not see it as an attempt to excuse genocide?&nbsp; That is the way I feel about your statement above.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Bunter</strong></em><br /><br />You on the other hand simply accept eternal punishment of the worst kind by deciding those who get it deserve it and think no more about it. In fact you contradict yourself by saying:&nbsp;"I feel sad that all unbelievers will go to Hell, ...... but I do not feel sad that only those who deserve this punishment will go there."</div><br><br>Nice to see that you like to misquote people right in front of them.&nbsp; Here is what I said, and which you hid by using ellipses (did you not think that I would remember what I wrote?):<br><font color="#0000FF"><br>"I feel sad that all unbelievers will go to Hell, as <u><b>BOTH</b></u> the Quran and Bible state, <u><b>because I would rather they all go to Paradise</b></u>, but I do <u><b>not</b></u> feel sad that only those who deserve this punishment will go there.&nbsp; It is absolutely absurd to compare this to the killings of the innocent, let alone of babies."</font><br><br>So, to repeat in plain English, I feel sad that all unbelievers will go to Hell because I want everyone to enjoy eternal happiness, but I do not feel sad that only those who deserve eternal punishment will go to Hell.&nbsp; Do you understand?&nbsp; I would much rather have everyone just believe and go to Paradise, rather than disbelieve and go to Hell.&nbsp; But, people have to make this choice for themselves.&nbsp; Therefore, which ever route they take, the destination will be what they deserved.&nbsp; So, even though I feel sad that not everyone will be in Paradise, I am comforted by the fact that everyone will get what they deserve.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Bunter</strong></em><br /><br />All you seem to be able to say is what YOU have decided is true. May I ask you do innocent babies die everyday? Does God will this or allow it, by your arguments a loving compassionate God would not do this would he? The point is, do you not see that these questions are far more difficult to deal with once we move away from the single issue you are using.</div><br><br>You don't even see the fallacy you are making.&nbsp; How are these two scenarios the same:<br><br>1.&nbsp; God ordered the Israelites to deliberately kill children and babies.<br><br>2.&nbsp; God causes children and babies to die everyday for various reasons (disease etc.).&nbsp; <br><br>One is a deliberate act of murder at the hands of humans.&nbsp; The other is God's own act.&nbsp; If God wants to take a life, that is His will.&nbsp; But, He doesn't command us to take that life ourselves, does He?&nbsp; The only time He has allowed us to take a life is during war (while prohibiting killing civilians) or in the pursuit of justice (as in executing a murderer). &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; <br><br>If someone told me that God had commanded him/her to murder children, I would think he was a quack who needs to be in a sanitarium.&nbsp; On the other hand, if a child or baby died due to natural causes despite the best efforts of all people involved to save him/her, I would say that it was God's will and accept it, because despite our best efforts, the infant still died. &nbsp;&nbsp; <br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Bunter</strong></em><br /><br />You quote Salman al-Oadah but where does he get this information from about this test? Suppose I take you line with&nbsp;al-Isrâ’: 15 and decide that God would not say that? I any case, taking the two ideas together leads to a contradiction since if Allah always sends a messenger there is no need for the test. How desperate can you get.</div><br><br><img src="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif" border="0" align="absmiddle" alt="LOL" /> Oh, so Sheik Bunter is questioning Shiek al-Oadah?&nbsp; <br><br>If you were to say that "God would not say that", you would have to provide a logical reason as to why you believe that.&nbsp; Just saying it proves nothing.&nbsp; When I said that God would not command the killing of infants, I am basing that on the beliefs that God is good and forbids the murder of the innocent, and that killing babies is evil.&nbsp; Therefore, the command to kill babies could not have been from God.&nbsp; How would you argue the claim that God would not send messengers before punishing people?<br><br>Your other absurd claim that there is a contradiction belies your ignorance as well as lack of attention.&nbsp; Allah (swt) sends messengers to people who have strayed from the truth.&nbsp; This could be due to their worship of false gods or committing injustice or other sins.&nbsp; The verse states that He does not punish these people until He sends them a messenger to warn them that what they are doing is wrong.&nbsp; If they refuse to reform, then the punishment will come upon them.&nbsp; That does not mean that a messenger was sent at every instance of time.&nbsp; Rather, God sent messengers whenever people had become so corrupt that He needed to intervene.&nbsp; But, if a person lived in a time when a messenger had not yet been sent, he would be tested in the afterlife rather than be punished outright because he had not been warned that what he was doing was wrong.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Bunter</strong></em><br /><br />Just to cover some of your points - you say Rabbis allowed killing of children but you do not know the context do you, I doubt you have even thought or care about it. The facts are that the question ONLY arose because Palestinians used children as suicide bombers - do you approve of that? Do you know that HAMAS obtained a legal ruling about what a female suicide bomber should wear - how sick is that when suicide bombers deliberately target innocent women and children?</div>&nbsp; <font color="#333300"><em></em></font><br><br>Wow!&nbsp; You wonder what the "context" was for this sick rabbi's belief that killing children is allowed.&nbsp; Are you equally interested in the "context" of Hamas' deliberate targeting of women and children?&nbsp; Hamas sees its actions as being in the interest of liberating Palestine from Israeli occupation and also accuses Israel of deliberately targeting Palestinian civilians:<br><br><font color="#0000FF">"The Islamic spirit is what should prevail in every Moslem society. The society that confronts a vicious enemy which acts in a way similar to Nazism, making no differentiation between man and woman, between children and old people - such a society is entitled to this Islamic spirit. Our enemy relies on the methods of collective punishment. He has deprived people of their homeland and properties, pursued them in their places of exile and gathering, breaking bones, shooting at women, children and old people, with or without a reason. The enemy has opened detention camps where thousands and thousands of people are thrown and kept under sub-human conditions. Added to this, are the demolition of houses, rendering children orphans, meting cruel sentences against thousands of young people, and causing them to spend the best years of their lives in the dungeons of prisons.  </font><p><font color="#0000FF">In their Nazi treatment, the Jews made no exception for women or children. Their policy of striking fear in the heart is meant for all. They attack people where their breadwinning is concerned, extorting their money and threatening their honour. They deal with people as if they were the worst war criminals. Deportation from the homeland is a kind of murder." <a href="http://aval&#111;n.law.yale.edu/20th_century/hamas.asp" target="_blank">&#091;1 - see Article 20&#093;</a></font><br></p>I am very interested if you think that the "context" of Hamas' terrorist operations are important, as you do with that specimen Manis Friedman.&nbsp; <br><br>If you had bothered to read the article about Friedman, you would see what this monster was saying:<br><br><font color="#0000FF">""The only way to fight a moral war is the Jewish way: Destroy their holy sites. Kill men, women and children (and cattle)...</font>"<br><br>The fact that he tried to "clarify" this plain statement only after the backlash it generated is further proof of what he was saying.&nbsp; In fact, this is how one person describes the group to which this rabbi belongs to:<br><br><font color="#0000FF">""They are not about loving the Arabs or a two-state solution or any of that stuff. They are fundamentalists. They are our fundamentalists.""</font><br><br>You also expose your own hypocrisy by pointing out "how sick is that when suicide bombers deliberately target innocent women and children", yet at the same time trying to defend the rabbi by claiming that he was only speaking about the "context" of Hamas using children as suicide bombers.&nbsp; How many Palestinian women and children, do you think, are potential suicide bombers?<br><br>This is sickening stuff, Bunter.&nbsp; Did you really think about this before you wrote it?<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Bunter</strong></em><br /><br />I don't approve of any massacres of any one by anyone. But Muslims have committed many massacres starting in medina.&nbsp;Moreover, Palestinian spokespersons blatantly&nbsp;exaggerate the number of victims, as they did following&nbsp;the fighting in Jenin in 2002. Palestinians claimed&nbsp;Israel had “massacred” 3,000 civilians, this was quickly reduced to 500 and eventually, the UN secretary general found the total number&nbsp;of Palestinians kllled to be 52, many of whom were armed combatants.</div><br><br>Have you forgotten "Operation Cast Lead" in 2008?&nbsp; According to a UN report:<br><br><font color="#0000FF">"&#091;The report &#093; concluded there is evidence indicating serious violations of international human rights and humanitarian law were committed by Israel during the Gaza conflict, and that Israel committed actions amounting to war crimes, and possibly crimes against humanity. </font><p><font color="#0000FF">The report also concludes there is also evidence that Palestinian armed groups committed war crimes, as well as possibly crimes against humanity, in their repeated launching of rockets and mortars into Southern Israel…" <a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/8257446.stm" target="_blank">&#091;2&#093;</a></font><br></p>You are starting to sound like a typical Christian fundamentalist apologist for Israel.&nbsp; You believe that Israel is the victim and that Palestinians are the real aggressors.&nbsp; I have a Christian friend who has been to the West Bank who would disagree with you.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Bunter</strong></em><br /><br />You also get muddled, I accept the verse in 1 Samuel 5 is historical fact but these verses are not NOT a general command for all time whereas marrying up to 4 wives and having concubines is - can you see this simple distinction?</div> &nbsp;&nbsp; <br><br><img src="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif" border="0" align="absmiddle" alt="LOL" /> "Simple distinction"?&nbsp; You would love to make it so "simple", wouldn't you?&nbsp; The fact is that:<br><br>1.&nbsp; I never said that Christians believe the commands of genocide are "for all time" (though "Rabbi" Friedman disagrees, it seems...), and,<br><br>2.&nbsp; Comparing genocide to polygamy is a desperate and laughable attempt by you.<br><br>Regardless of your beliefs regarding polygamy, how is it even remotely comparable to genocide, albeit genocide confined to a certain time period?&nbsp; You have yet to explain this bizarre comparison.&nbsp; I wonder why...<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Bunter</strong></em><br /><br />It is sadly your bias and obsessions that are exposed. You obviously and erroneously think that all criticism of Islam is brainless ignorant rants. With regard to your prophet and assassinations it's it easy to find the details - but may I suggest YOU research out these 4 from many cases:<br><br>The Case of Uqba bin Abu Mu’ayt - when you look this one up try to find out what your prophet said when Abu Mu'ayt pleaded for his children.<br>The Case of Ka’b bin al-Ashraf<br>The Case of Ibn Sunayna&nbsp;<br>The Case of Mirba bin Qayzi<span style="font-size:10px"></span></div><br><br>It's hilarious but expected how you gave me examples of assassinations but did not name your sources!&nbsp; I wonder why...<img src="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/smileys/smiley24.gif" border="0" align="absmiddle" alt="Ermm" />&nbsp; Unfortunately for you, I know exactly where you picked up this "information" from.&nbsp; Does the name "David Wood" mean anything to you? <img src="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif" border="0" align="absmiddle" alt="Wink" /><br><br>The reason I asked you what your source is for this information is because many of these stories are found in Ibn Ishaq's "Sirat al-RasulAllah", which is unanimously regarded by Islamic scholars as being unreliable and based on weak or even fabricated narrations.&nbsp; Brainless anti-Muslim websites cherry-pick these stories and assume that they are based on historical facts.&nbsp; In the process, gullible and ignorant non-Muslims such as yourself accept these assessments without bothering to check authentic Islamic sources for the real truth.<br><br>Here are some articles on these assassinations:<br><br><a href="http://www.answering-christianity.com/umar/dead_poets_rebuttal.htm" target="_blank">http://www.answering-christianity.com/umar/dead_poets_rebuttal.htm</a><br><a href="http://islamicresp&#111;nse.blogspot.com/2008/07/allegati&#111;n-that-muhammad-killed-ibn.html" target="_blank"><br>http://islamicresponse.blogspot.com/2008/07/allegation-that-muhammad-killed-ibn.html</a><br>&nbsp;&nbsp; <br><a href="http://www.bismikaallahuma.org/archives/2006/false-allegati&#111;ns-of-atrocities-ii/" target="_blank">http://www.bismikaallahuma.org/archives/2006/false-allegations-of-atrocities-ii/</a><br><br>I was suspicious about where you get your "information" on Islam from (as experience has taught me), and you certainly did not disappoint!<br><br>And once again...you did not answer my question:<br><br>Are you pro-life or pro-choice?&nbsp; Why do you keep ignoring this question?<br>]]>
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   <pubDate>Mon, 31 Dec 2012 14:54:27 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? : In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent,...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=53418">islamispeace</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 31 December 2012 at 12:42pm<br /><br />In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Placid</strong></em><br /><br />Response: --- It doesn’t matter how you want to view this one verse, Titus 2:13, --- because you have to understand that Jesus always represented God on earth. (You don’t have to believe it, but your disagreement is with God, and His word.)<br>--- Remember when Thomas, the doubter, was totally convinced that Jesus had risen from the dead, he said, “My Lord and My God.” --- And Jesus dis not rebuke him, did He? --- And why not? --- The Risen Jesus was not God, was He?</div><br><br>Oh, come on Placid!&nbsp; You make me wait all this time for an explanation of Titus 2:13, and when you finally response, you completely ignore Titus 2:13!<br><br>Why did Paul refer to Jesus as the "great god and savior"?&nbsp; He clearly worshiped him as "God".&nbsp; Yet, you insist that Jesus was not God (I agree with you, of course).&nbsp; The point is how do you reconcile the inconsistency of the New Testament regarding Jesus (pbuh) and your own beliefs about him?<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Placid</strong></em><br /><br />To go back to the beginning, the Sign from Isaiah said, “A virgin shall conceive and bring forth a son and you shall call His name Immanuel.” <br>In Matthew 1:23 this prophecy was fulfilled and it says the name ‘Immanuel’ means, “God with us.”<br>So God was ‘with us’ in the Person of Jesus.</div><br><br>Jesus (pbuh) was never referred to by the name "Immanuel".&nbsp; Yet, Isaiah 7:14 clearly states that the name of the child will be "Immanuel" (not Jesus).&nbsp; How can this apply to Jesus?<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Placid</strong></em><br /><br />-- Jesus did not have a human father, but He had a human body, and Divine Spirit. (So really, God was His Father, in that God brought Him into Being.)<br>--- But Jesus was not God, nor another God --- but Jesus came as a Servant of God, to do God’s will, and not His own. --- But He came as a Servant, and the name Jesus means Savior. --- The name Christ means Messiah. --- And He was the Redeemer that God sent to reconcile sinners to Himself through Faith, repentance, and obedience. --- And it says in 2 Corinthians 5:<br>18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, <br>19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself,</div><br><br>None of this explains why Paul referred to Jesus as the "great god and savior".&nbsp; By referring to other NT verses, you are only demonstrating what I already have pointed out...that the Bible is incredibly inconsistent.&nbsp; <br><br>By the way, I already pointed out before that the name "Jesus" does not mean "savior".&nbsp; I don't know where you are getting this from.&nbsp; It actually means "God saves" or "Yahweh saves".&nbsp; Put another way, it means "The Lord is Salvation" <a href="http://biblesuite.com/str&#111;ngs/hebrew/3091.htm" target="_blank">&#091;1&#093;</a>.&nbsp; <br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Placid</strong></em><br /><br />It might have been less confusing for the ‘trinitarians’ if it had just said, “Baptizing them in the Name of God.” --- However, the NAME involves God, and the Word which indwelt Jesus, and the Holy Spirit, the giver of life. ---John said this plainly in 1 John 5:<br>7 “For there are three that bear witness in heaven, the Father (God), the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one.”</div><br><br>Your appeal to this verse is bizarre given that it clearly refers to the trinitarian doctrine.&nbsp; Of course, appealing to this verse in defense of the trinity is in itself a problem given that no Greek manuscripts have this wording.&nbsp; As Ehrman points out:<br><br><font color="#0000FF">"...Erasmus did not find it in his Greek manuscripts, which instead simply read: 'There are three that bear witness: the Spirit, the water, and the blood, and these three are one.'&nbsp; Where did the 'Father, the Word, and the Spirit' go?&nbsp; They were not in Erasmus's primary manuscript, or in any of the other that he consulted, and so, naturally, he left them out of his first edition of the Greek text." ("Misquoting Jesus: The Story Behind Who Changed the Bible and Why", p. 81)</font><br><br>So, this verse is actually not the smoking gun the trinitarians have hoped for.&nbsp; However, if we consider that the verse makes no mention of "Father, word and Holy Spirit", then your appeal to it makes no sense, either.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Placid</strong></em><br /><br />And again in Surah 4:171, ‘Jesus, the Messiah, was the Messenger of God, --- and His Word (that He conveyed into Mary), --- and His Spirit. --- But don’t say “Three,” --- God is only One God.’</div><br><br>And again:<br><br><font color="#333300">"The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: "Be". And he was." (3:59)</font><br><br>I think it is advisable for you to leave the Quran to Muslims, because your cherry-picking of Quranic verses do not help your case.<br><br>Jesus (pbuh) was created, just like Adam (pbuh).&nbsp; In fact, the whole universe was created the same way:<br><br><font color="#333300">"It is He who created the heavens and the earth in true (proportions): the day He saith, "Be," behold! it is. His word is the truth. His will be the dominion the day the trumpet will be blown. He knoweth the unseen as well as that which is open. For He is the Wise, well acquainted (with all things)." (6:73)</font><br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Placid</strong></em><br /><br />And to give a conclusion to the authority of Jesus we read this in 1 Corinthians 15:<br>24 Then comes the end, when He (Jesus) delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. <br>25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. <br>26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. <br>27 For “He has put all things under His feet.”  <br>28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him (God) who put all things under Him, THAT GOD MAY BE ALL IN ALL.<br><br>(Jesus still has 'All Authority,' and Titus 2:13 ‘reflects’ that, --- so, a little more later.)</div><br><br>Titus 2:13 refers to Jesus (pbuh) as "great god and savior".&nbsp; That is a far cry from saying "Jesus has...all authority".&nbsp; Paul worshiped Jesus as "God" yet the 1st commandment states that "you shall have no other gods before me."&nbsp; In the Quran, Jesus (pbuh) reiterated this fundamental tenet:<br><br><font color="#333300">"They do blaspheme who say: "Allah is Christ the son of Mary." But said Christ: "O Children of Israel! worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord." Whoever joins other gods with Allah,- Allah will forbid him the garden, and the Fire will be his abode. There will for the wrong-doers be no one to help." (5:72)</font> &nbsp; <br><br>]]>
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   <pubDate>Mon, 31 Dec 2012 12:42:54 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? : &#160; Posted by Islamispeace -&#160;You...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=66457">bunter</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 29 December 2012 at 10:03am<br /><br /> <div class="BBquote">Posted by Islamispeace - You have got to be one of the touchiest people I have ever met.  What's wrong with using a little humor and sarcasm in a conversation?  Is it my fault that you get insulted so easily?</div><br />Here again it's all my fault, you cannot be in the wrong. By using insulting language you invalidate you arguments, such as they are, because such methods amount to a fallacy of the kind called "Ad Hominem" where you attack people not their arguments. But I shall say nothing more because I fear it will just be a waste of time with you.<br /><br /><div class="BBquote">Islampeace - No, this is your own version of "history".  Also, if it is indeed authentic history, it remains to be proven whether the Israelites just killed everyone because they wanted to and could OR whether they were only following God's command. It is only as "historical" as Hitler's claim that he was chosen to do the work of "Divine Providence".  We know that Hitler killed millions of people but we don't actually buy his claim that he was only doing God's work, do we?</div><br />This just shows the absolute paucity of your answers. You quote the historical event as found in 1 Samuel 15 as your only argument and then deny it is history - notice, without any foundation YOU decide it is not true. I ask you why would the Jews, as you allege, corrupt their own scriptures by adding this story if it were not true - you have no answer and fallback on your usual line that YOU decided it has been corrupted - no you are not interested in truth unless it's your truth.<br /><br />Next, I am not approving the killing of babies, I am saying, and have said repeatedly, I accept it as history but cannot explain it or attempt to justify it, it is as we say closed off. You on the other hand simply accept eternal punishment of the worst kind by deciding those who get it deserve it and think no more about it. In fact you contradict yourself by saying: "I feel sad that all unbelievers will go to Hell, ...... but I do not feel sad that only those who deserve this punishment will go there.". All you seem to be able to say is what YOU have decided is true. May I ask you do innocent babies die everyday? Does God will this or allow it, by your arguments a loving compassionate God would not do this would he? The point is, do you not see that these questions are far more difficult to deal with once we move away from the single issue you are using. <br /><br />You quote Salman al-Oadah but where does he get this information from about this test? Suppose I take you line with al-Isrâ’: 15 and decide that God would not say that? I any case, taking the two ideas together leads to a contradiction since if Allah always sends a messenger there is no need for the test. How desperate can you get.<br /><br />Just to cover some of your points - you say Rabbis allowed killing of children but you do not know the context do you, I doubt you have even thought or care about it. The facts are that the question ONLY arose because Palestinians used children as suicide bombers - do you approve of that? Do you know that HAMAS obtained a legal ruling about what a female suicide bomber should wear - how sick is that when suicide bombers deliberately target innocent women and children?<br /><br />I don't approve of any massacres of any one by anyone. But Muslims have committed many massacres starting in medina. Moreover, Palestinian spokespersons blatantly exaggerate the number of victims, as they did following the fighting in Jenin in 2002. Palestinians claimed Israel had “massacred” 3,000 civilians, this was quickly reduced to 500 and eventually, the UN secretary general found the total number of Palestinians kllled to be 52, many of whom were armed combatants.  <br /><br />You also get muddled, I accept the verse in 1 Samuel 5 is historical fact but these verses are not NOT a general command for all time whereas marrying up to 4 wives and having concubines is - can you see this simple distinction? <br /><br /><div class="BBquote">See, with these kinds of ignorant rants, you expose yourself as a biased individual!  Where did you get this information from?  Was it an Islamic source or was it some brainless anti-Muslim website run by a pseudo-scholar with no knowledge of Islam?  Do tell.</div><br />It is sadly your bias and obsessions that are exposed. You obviously and erroneously think that all criticism of Islam is brainless ignorant rants. With regard to your prophet and assassinations it's it easy to find the details - but may I suggest YOU research out these 4 from many cases:<br /><br />The Case of Uqba bin Abu Mu’ayt - when you look this one up try to find out what your prophet said when Abu Mu'ayt pleaded for his children.<br />The Case of Ka’b bin al-Ashraf<br />The Case of Ibn Sunayna <br />The Case of Mirba bin Qayzi<span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by bunter - 29 December 2012 at 10:10am</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Sat, 29 Dec 2012 10:03:02 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? : Hi Islam,Quote: Perhaps you...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71448">Placid</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 29 December 2012 at 8:47am<br /><br />Hi Islam,<br /><br />Quote: Perhaps you can explain why in Titus 2:13, Paul referred to Jesus as "the great god and savior":<br />12 "It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age, 13 while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, 14 who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good." (Titus 2:12-14) <br /><br />Response: --- It doesn’t matter how you want to view this one verse, Titus 2:13, --- because you have to understand that Jesus always represented God on earth. (You don’t have to believe it, but your disagreement is with God, and His word.)<br />--- Remember when Thomas, the doubter, was totally convinced that Jesus had risen from the dead, he said, “My Lord and My God.” --- And Jesus dis not rebuke him, did He? --- And why not? --- The Risen Jesus was not God, was He?<br /><br />To go back to the beginning, the Sign from Isaiah said, “A virgin shall conceive and bring forth a son and you shall call His name Immanuel.” <br />In Matthew 1:23 this prophecy was fulfilled and it says the name ‘Immanuel’ means, “God with us.”<br />So God was ‘with us’ in the Person of Jesus.<br /> <br />--- John said in 1:1, “In the beginning was the Word.” --- (The Word, Logos, was the creative power of God.)<br />--- “And the Word was with God.” --- (That means that God was there first, for the Word to be with Him.)<br />--- “And the Word was God.” --- (The Word ‘Manifested God’ in the world) <br />--- “And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us.” John 1:14. --- (The Word took on the form of flesh in the Person of Jesus.)<br /><br />--- Jesus did not have a human father, but He had a human body, and Divine Spirit. (So really, God was His Father, in that God brought Him into Being.)<br />--- But Jesus was not God, nor another God --- but Jesus came as a Servant of God, to do God’s will, and not His own. --- But He came as a Servant, and the name Jesus means Savior. --- The name Christ means Messiah. --- And He was the Redeemer that God sent to reconcile sinners to Himself through Faith, repentance, and obedience. --- And it says in 2 Corinthians 5:<br />18 Now all things are of God, who has reconciled us to Himself through Jesus Christ, and has given us the ministry of reconciliation, <br />19 that is, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself,<br /><br />--- And Jesus gave the Great Commission to the Apostles, in Matthew 28:<br />18 And Jesus came and spoke to them, saying, “All authority has been given to Me in heaven and on earth. <br />19 Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, <br />20 teaching them to observe all things that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, even to the end of the age.” Amen. <br />--- (Notice, it says, “Baptizing them in the NAME of.”  --- It doesn’t say, ‘In the NAMES of’ --- as though there were three, --- but just in the NAME of One God.)<br /><br />It might have been less confusing for the ‘trinitarians’ if it had just said, “Baptizing them in the Name of God.” --- However, the NAME involves God, and the Word which indwelt Jesus, and the Holy Spirit, the giver of life. ---John said this plainly in 1 John 5:<br />7 “For there are three that bear witness in heaven, the Father (God), the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one.”<br />&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<br />--- And again in Surah 4:171, ‘Jesus, the Messiah, was the Messenger of God, --- and His Word (that He conveyed into Mary), --- and His Spirit. --- But don’t say “Three,” --- God is only One God.’<br /><br />And to give a conclusion to the authority of Jesus we read this in 1 Corinthians 15:<br />24 Then comes the end, when He (Jesus) delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. <br />25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. <br />26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. <br />27 For “He has put all things under His feet.”  <br />28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him (God) who put all things under Him, THAT GOD MAY BE ALL IN ALL.<br /><br />(Jesus still has 'All Authority,' and Titus 2:13 ‘reflects’ that, --- so, a little more later.)<br /><br /><br />Placid<br /><br />]]>
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   <pubDate>Sat, 29 Dec 2012 08:47:08 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? : Hi Mahdi,Quote: Using this ridiculous...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71448">Placid</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 29 December 2012 at 5:35am<br /><br />Hi Mahdi,<br /><br />Quote: Using this ridiculous logic, then every child should be killed. <br /><br />Response: --- Then why are you using it? <br />placid , you are the one using that line of reasoning <br /><br />Response: --- Not quite right. --- I have said that children who die an untimely death, before the age of accountability, --- that God takes them unto Himself. God is Merciful.<br /><br />--- In the destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah, the innocent children and true believers who were destroyed in God’s judgment on that sinful society, would be saved. --- God is the Righteous Judge of us all.<br /><br />To kill children as Islam suggests, so that they could go to heaven, would cause the murderer to condemn himself to hell, would it not?<br /><br />God’s plan for children is to grow up in a family with loving parents, brothers and sisters. --- The Scripture says, “Train a child up in the way he should go and when he is old he will not depart from it.”<br /><br /><br />Placid<br /><br />]]>
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   <pubDate>Sat, 29 Dec 2012 05:35:47 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? : Just got done watching a program...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=69566">Caringheart</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 28 December 2012 at 8:28pm<br /><br />Just got done watching a program which talked about how the book of 1 Samuel from the talmud was more of the epic hero tale, embellished for effect.<br>While the same story is told in a much different way in the book of Judges.<br><br>We're all connected to our tainted pasts.&nbsp; The point is whether or not we evolve.<br>]]>
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   <pubDate>Fri, 28 Dec 2012 20:28:02 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? : placid saidHi Islam, Quote:...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24200&amp;PID=172056#172056</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=67758">Mahdi The Seeke</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 28 December 2012 at 7:16am<br /><br /><strong>placid said<br /><br />Hi Islam, <br /><br />Quote: Using this ridiculous logic, then every child should be killed. <br /><br />Response: --- Then why are you using it? </strong><br />placid , you are the one using that line of reasoning]]>
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   <pubDate>Fri, 28 Dec 2012 07:16:55 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? : In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent,...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24200&amp;PID=172001#172001</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=53418">islamispeace</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 26 December 2012 at 1:50pm<br /><br />In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Placid</strong></em><br /><br />Response: --- Then why are you using it?</div><br><br>I am not using it.&nbsp; I was criticizing your ridiculous excuse-making that the slaughter of Amalekite children was okay because it saved the children from growing up and going to Hell.&nbsp; The point I was making is that if that was the excuse, then why not continue it in modern times?&nbsp; Why not just save everyone by killing them as children?&nbsp; You know it makes no sense.&nbsp; So then why are you using it as an excuse for the Israelite slaughter of Amalekite children?&nbsp; <br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Placid</strong></em><br /><br />It is interesting that after you asked me ‘what I was?’ --- and I told you, you referred to me as being crazy, then you flood every post with words, to try and distort the subject.</div><br><br>When did I call you "crazy"?&nbsp; You are the one distorting the subject.&nbsp; We were talking about the Israelite slaughter of innocent children and you brought the Quran into the subject by claiming that it agrees with the Bible.&nbsp; I entertained your claims, even though they had nothing to do with the topic...and you accuse me of "distorting the topic"?&nbsp; Oh please...<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Placid</strong></em><br /><br />--- Then on Page 12, when I quoted from Surah 3:55 that God gives the followers of Jesus, the assurance of salvation, you responded with this statement: <br>“Anyone can give you "assurance".  That doesn't mean it is true.  Just because your scripture tells you that you are "saved" doesn't make it so.” <br>So you are saying, --- Though GOD SAID IT, --- in the Quran, --- it doesn’t make it true. --- You go on to say: <br>Quote: Just because your scripture (In the Quran) tells you that you are "saved" doesn't make it so. ---<br><br>--- Which indicates that you don’t believe what God says in the Quran any more than you believe what God said in the OT.</div><br><br>Obviously, you don't read my responses carefully and you jump to conclusions.<br><br>I was responding to your question "so do you have the assurance of eternal life, as the Scriptures say we can have?"&nbsp; Here was my response:<br><br>"Anyone can give you "assurance".&nbsp; That doesn't mean it is true.&nbsp; Just because <u><b>your scripture</b></u> tells you that you are "saved" doesn't make it so.<br><br>To answer your question, I am fully secure in my faith.&nbsp; <u><b>The Quran and Sunnah promise salvation for those who believe that "there is no god but Allah and that Muhammad is messenger."&nbsp; This declaration of faith will be the saving grace for all who sincerely believe it.</b></u>"<br><br>By "your scripture", I was referring to the Bible's promise of salvation to those who accept Jesus as their "lord and savior".&nbsp; Then, I stated that that the Quran and Sunnah promise salvation to all who accept the Shahada.&nbsp; I think it is clear that you are one distorting my responses.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Placid</strong></em><br /><br />--- Then you say I am breaking the first Commandment by following what Jesus taught, that we should make Him Lord of our lives.</div><br><br>And you are.&nbsp; You have yet to refute this.&nbsp; Is it not a violation of the 1st Commandment to make Jesus "lord of your lives"?&nbsp; <img src="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/smileys/smiley3.gif" border="0" align="absmiddle" alt="Shocked" /><br><br>Isn't it God who is supposed to be "Lord of our lives"?&nbsp; Who is Jesus (pbuh) compared to God?&nbsp; He is nothing.&nbsp; He is as dust compared to the Lord of all Creation.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Placid</strong></em><br /><br />Then you say, “This is shirk from Islam's point of view.  By taking Jesus as your "lord and savior", you are committing a grave sin, because only God is "Lord and Savior." --- <br>--- Because you don’t understand it, you made the erroneous statement that no one called Jesus Lord, --- so I gave some 80 references where the disciples and others addressed Jesus as Lord. <br>--- Then, after rejecting it again you say, “I know the Gospels well, and I was already well aware of the verses you referred to.”<br>--- (So if you knew them, you contradict yourself in arguing about them.)<br> </div><br><br>Your childish conclusions are not helping this discussion.&nbsp; By your own admission, you said that you accept Jesus as your "lord and savior"&nbsp; When I questioned this, you pointed to the New Testament and claimed that Jesus was referred to as "lord" not "LORD".&nbsp; But as I pointed out, you still take Jesus as your "lord AND savior".&nbsp; I stated that only God is our savior.&nbsp; You conveniently ignored this.&nbsp; <br><br>Moreover, you are not doing much to show that you are not committing shirk.&nbsp; Just above you said that you have made Jesus "lord of your life".&nbsp; Is this not shirk?&nbsp; Is this not a violation of the 1st Commandment?&nbsp; I think so!<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Placid</strong></em><br /><br />Then on Page 14 you used your four letter word, meaning condemn, which is a ‘spiritual’ word, but used in the wrong connotation, because you wouldn’t say, <br>“You are ‘condemned’ right that this is exclusivism.” ------ Does this mean that simple blasphemy can occur readily in your conversation?</div><br><br><img src="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif" border="0" align="absmiddle" alt="LOL" /> Oh come on Placid.&nbsp; Are you not aware that the word "damn" had different meanings?&nbsp; It is also:<br><br><font color="#0000FF">"<u><b>Used for emphasis</b></u>, esp. to express anger or frustration:  "turn that damn thing off!";  "don't be so damn silly!"." <a href="http://www.google.com/#hl=en&amp;tbo=u&amp;q=damn&amp;tbs=dfn:1&amp;sa=X&amp;ei=Im3bUKHpHYuq0AG3roDQCQ&amp;ved=0CC4QkQ4&amp;bav=&#111;n.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_qf.&amp;bvm=bv.1355534169,d.dmQ&amp;fp=a7e118819f5e1e5b&amp;bpcl=40096503&amp;biw=1366&amp;bih=569" target="_blank">&#091;1&#093;</a></font><br><br><font color="#0000FF"><font color="#000000">I was emphasizing the "exclusivity" (as you referred to it) of God being the only "Lord and Savior".&nbsp; Obviously, you seem to disagree, which only proves further that you are committing shirk and violating the 1st Commandment.&nbsp; Here is your final chance to prove that you are not committing shirk.&nbsp; Answer the following with a "yes" or "no":<br><br>Is God the only Lord and Savior of mankind?<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Placid</strong></em><br /><br /></font></font><font color="#0000FF"><font color="#000000">You have stretched this topic out for 15 Pages, --- and on Page 15, you distort what I say and say, ‘it makes you sick to your stomach.’</div><br><br>I am simply being honest, which is what I thought you were.&nbsp; I find the excuse-making for the Israelite slaughter of children to be sickening.&nbsp; If you don't like it, that's your problem.&nbsp; <br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Placid</strong></em><br /><br /></font></font><font color="#0000FF"><font color="#000000">--- As I look in the Forum Guidelines, I read this in 3 and 4:<br>3. A generally pleasant demeanor and cordiality in language is requested during discussions.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<br>4. When discussing issues dealing with Islam, please support your comments with the Quran or Sunnah<br>--- I always give references from the Bible and the Quran, but you seem to go mostly with your own opinion, which is always negative to the Scriptures.</div><br><br>You selectively quote the Quran, as do most Christians who use the argument that the Quran upholds the Bible.&nbsp; I have answered all of your appeals to the Quran and I showed that you were either misquoting the Quran or quoting out of context.&nbsp; <br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Placid</strong></em><br /><br /></font></font><font color="#0000FF"><font color="#000000">I will answer the question on Titus with some Scriptures, --- which you will naturally ridicule, --- and then I will use a verse from Titus to wrap this all up.</div><br><br>I don't know what you are waiting for.&nbsp; You have posted a few times since I asked the question and have yet to respond.&nbsp; <br><br>Contrary to your claim, I only "ridicule" nonsensical statements which are devoid of any facts.&nbsp; For example, I "ridiculed" your excuse-making of the Israelite slaughter (which is the topic of this thread) as being sickening and monstrous, because that is how I regard the killing of children...as sickening and monstrous.&nbsp; You may be fine with making excuses for the Biblical claims, but I am not.&nbsp; That is why I believe the Bible is not the word of God.&nbsp; The Quran and Sunnah make this clear, no matter how much you may try to misquote them. &nbsp; <br></font></font>]]>
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   <pubDate>Wed, 26 Dec 2012 13:50:53 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? : Hi Islam,Quote: Using this ridiculous...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24200&amp;PID=171985#171985</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71448">Placid</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 26 December 2012 at 7:07am<br /><br />Hi Islam,<br /><br />Quote: Using this ridiculous logic, then every child should be killed. <br /><br />Response: --- Then why are you using it?<br />It is interesting that after you asked me ‘what I was?’ --- and I told you, you referred to me as being crazy, then you flood every post with words, to try and distort the subject. <br /><br />--- Then on Page 12, when I quoted from Surah 3:55 that God gives the followers of Jesus, the assurance of salvation, you responded with this statement: <br />“Anyone can give you "assurance".  That doesn't mean it is true.  Just because your scripture tells you that you are "saved" doesn't make it so.” <br />So you are saying, --- Though GOD SAID IT, --- in the Quran, --- it doesn’t make it true. --- You go on to say: <br />Quote: Just because your scripture (In the Quran) tells you that you are "saved" doesn't make it so. ---<br /><br />--- Which indicates that you don’t believe what God says in the Quran any more than you believe what God said in the OT.<br /><br />--- Then you say I am breaking the first Commandment by following what Jesus taught, that we should make Him Lord of our lives.<br /><br />Then you say, “This is shirk from Islam's point of view.  By taking Jesus as your "lord and savior", you are committing a grave sin, because only God is "Lord and Savior." --- <br />--- Because you don’t understand it, you made the erroneous statement that no one called Jesus Lord, --- so I gave some 80 references where the disciples and others addressed Jesus as Lord. <br />--- Then, after rejecting it again you say, “I know the Gospels well, and I was already well aware of the verses you referred to.”<br />--- (So if you knew them, you contradict yourself in arguing about them.)<br /> <br />Then on Page 14 you used your four letter word, meaning condemn, which is a ‘spiritual’ word, but used in the wrong connotation, because you wouldn’t say, <br />“You are ‘condemned’ right that this is exclusivism.” ------ Does this mean that simple blasphemy can occur readily in your conversation?<br /><br />You have stretched this topic out for 15 Pages, --- and on Page 15, you distort what I say and say, ‘it makes you sick to your stomach.’<br /><br />--- As I look in the Forum Guidelines, I read this in 3 and 4:<br />3. A generally pleasant demeanor and cordiality in language is requested during discussions.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<br />4. When discussing issues dealing with Islam, please support your comments with the Quran or Sunnah<br />--- I always give references from the Bible and the Quran, but you seem to go mostly with your own opinion, which is always negative to the Scriptures.<br /><br />I will answer the question on Titus with some Scriptures, --- which you will naturally ridicule, --- and then I will use a verse from Titus to wrap this all up.<br /><br /><br />Placid<br /><br />]]>
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   <pubDate>Wed, 26 Dec 2012 07:07:31 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? :  In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent,...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24200&amp;PID=171912#171912</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=53418">islamispeace</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 24 December 2012 at 1:22pm<br /><br />In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Placid</strong></em><br /><br />--- You are ignoring the fact that GOD GAVE THE INSTRUCTIONS to destroy the Amalekites completely. <br>--- And since they had chosen an earthly king, then they have to use their king and their armies without the power and guidance of God.<br>THAT’S MAN’S WAY.</div><br><br>No, the Bible claims that "God gave the instructions".&nbsp; That does not mean that God actually gave those instructions.&nbsp; <br><br>Also, as I have pointed out several times already, and which you seem to want to ignore, the Israelites slaughtered not just the Amalekites, but other nations as well.&nbsp; This bloody tradition of committing genocide started well before Saul.&nbsp; It started with Moses (pbuh) and continued with his successors.&nbsp; This is what the Bible would have us believe, anyway.&nbsp; <br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Placid</strong></em><br /><br />--- The point is that all of the children would still be put to death, --- but I said that God takes the children unto Himself who die an untimely death, before they reach the age of accountability.<br>--- I don’t think you have an argument against that, do you?</div><br><br>Using this ridiculous logic, then every child should be killed.&nbsp; There shouldn't even be anyone alive on earth.&nbsp; Mankind should just save itself by killing everyone in their childhood.&nbsp; Do you accept this plan of salvation?&nbsp; <br><br>As I said, killing children is monstrous, no matter what excuse you can conjure up.&nbsp; To justify it by saying that "well the children are with God" is sickening.&nbsp; There are many children starving and dying all around the world.&nbsp; Do you think that it is better to just let all these children die, since it would probably spare most of them eternal damnation?&nbsp; <br><br>By the way, you have yet to explain why Paul referred to Jesus (pbuh) as God in his letter to Titus.<br><span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by islamispeace - 24 December 2012 at 1:23pm</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Mon, 24 Dec 2012 13:22:12 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? : Hi Islam,Quote: As I have said...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71448">Placid</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 23 December 2012 at 2:53pm<br /><br />Hi Islam,<br /><br />Quote: As I have said on numerous occasions, what God does is not for us to question.  When He destroyed many nations, He did it Himself.  He did not ask a human army to go in and massacre everyone.  Therefore, to compare the Israelite genocide to God's destruction of Sodom and Gammorah is absurd.<br /><br />Response: --- In the Scriptures from 1 Samuel 7, back on page 9, I was making the point that when God dealt with a problem, He did it His way. --- When the fearful army of Israel were called to go against the invading armies of the Philistines, they called on God, who was their only hope. --- While you are right, that the Israelites fought against, and defeated the armies of the Philistines, and chased them back to their own land, they didn’t bother Israel again, as it says in 1 Samuel 7:&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<br />13 So the Philistines were subdued, and they did not come anymore into the territory of Israel. And the hand of the Lord was against the Philistines all the days of Samuel. <br />14 Then the cities which the Philistines had taken from Israel were restored to Israel, from Ekron to Gath; and Israel recovered its territory from the hands of the Philistines.<br />--- THAT WAS GOD’S WAY.<br /><br />But some years later, when the people again rejected God, and said in 1 Samuel 8: <br />5 “Now make us a king to judge us like all the nations.”<br />--- Samuel objected and cried out to the Lord, but the Lord responded:<br />7 And the Lord said to Samuel, “Heed the voice of the people in all that they say to you; for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected Me, that I should not reign over them.”<br />--- So, they chose themselves an earthly king, whose name was Saul.<br /><br />Do you remember what the verses in Post 1 said, in 1 Samuel 8:<br />1 Samuel also said unto Saul, The LORD sent me to anoint thee to be king over his people, over Israel: now therefore hearken thou unto the voice of the words of the LORD. <br />2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. <br />3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling ox and sheep, camel and ass.<br /><br />--- You are ignoring the fact that GOD GAVE THE INSTRUCTIONS to destroy the Amalekites completely. <br />--- And since they had chosen an earthly king, then they have to use their king and their armies without the power and guidance of God.<br />THAT’S MAN’S WAY.<br /><br />Had God done it, He might have destroyed them in one of the following ways:<br />11:82 So when Our commandment came to pass We overthrew (that township) and rained upon it stones of clay, one after another,<br />15:74 And We utterly confounded them, and We rained upon them stones of heated clay.<br /> 29:40 So We took each one in his sin; of them was he on whom We sent a hurricane, and of them was he who was overtaken by the (Awful) Cry, and of them was he whom We caused the earth to swallow, and of them was he whom We drowned. It was not for Allah to wrong them, but they wronged themselves.<br />54:34 Lo! We sent a storm of stones upon them (all) save the family of Lot, whom We rescued in the last watch of the night,<br /><br />--- The point is that all of the children would still be put to death, --- but I said that God takes the children unto Himself who die an untimely death, before they reach the age of accountability.<br />--- I don’t think you have an argument against that, do you?<br /><br />And I think Mahdi would understand from the answers given in the first posts, that since there was no genocide by Christians in the NT, Christians don’t kill babies or sucklings.<br /><br /><br />Placid<br /><br />]]>
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   <pubDate>Sun, 23 Dec 2012 14:53:21 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? : Hi HasanQuote: Placid, so are...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71448">Placid</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 22 December 2012 at 1:18pm<br /><br />Hi Hasan<br /><br />Quote: Placid, <br />so are you saying that by calling someone Lord means ____? can you fill that out please. <br />Also, was Jesus the only one addressed as Lord in the Bible? <br />Hasan<br /><br />Response: --- If you are a servant or slave to someone on earth, he is your lord or master (small l, and small h).<br />Calling Jesus ‘Lord’ means that you are submitting unto Him as a servant or slave, therefore you call (only) Jesus Lord. --- Lord means Master, and Jesus,the Christ is the only one that came from God as Messiah, and Savior.--- (Jesus means Savior, Christ means Messiah<br /><br />So we are servants or slaves, to Christ, just as Jesus is the Servant or Slave, to God.<br /><br />It was only Jesus in the Gospels that said to the people “Follow Me.”<br />--- Paul said in one of his letters to a Church, “Follow me as I follow Christ.”<br /><br />In Surah 3:50 it says:<br /> “I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear God, and obey me.<br />51 It is God Who is my Lord and your Lord; then worship Him. This is a Way that is straight."<br /><br />There you have it --- Jesus said “Obey Me (as your Lord and Master), --- as I obey God (as My Lord and Master).”<br />--- And it says plainly in the Quran, --- “This is a Way that is straight.<br /><br />Notice that there is a capital S, on Sign, and a capital W, on Way. <br /><br /><br />Placid<br /><br /><br />]]>
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   <pubDate>Sat, 22 Dec 2012 13:18:21 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? : In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent,...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=53418">islamispeace</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 22 December 2012 at 11:38am<br /><br />In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Placid</strong></em><br /><br />Hi Islam,<br><br>I notice you didn't comment on the Poem that someone wrote about the tragedy of the 20 children, and how God takes care of little ones under the age of accountability.<br><br>This is what we believe from the Scriptures although the details are unknown, --- but this answers the question from Post 1.<br><br>I was going to ask you about God's destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah which is written in both Genesis and the Quran. --- Did God not destroy all the children who otherwise, would have grown up like their degraded and immoral parents?<br><br>But rather, God removed this blemish on the land and would save the innocent children who were not of the age of accountability, --- as well as any true believers. <br><br>Is that not God's justice --- and His right to do?<br><br><br>(We eill check Titus 2:13 next.)</div><br><br>What "poem" are you referring to?<br><br>Are you suggesting that the horrific massacre of those children is somehow a "blessing"?&nbsp; Should we have more of these "blessings" then?&nbsp; Should the psychotic murderer who committed those crimes be hailed instead of rightfully condemned?&nbsp; <br><br>As I have said on numerous occasions, what God does is not for us to question.&nbsp; When He destroyed many nations, He did it Himself.&nbsp; He did not ask a human army to go in and massacre everyone.&nbsp; Therefore, to compare the Israelite genocide to God's destruction of Sodom and Gammorah is absurd.<br><br>I am utterly shocked at how far you people will go to make excuses and justify the slaughter of children.&nbsp; It makes me sick to my stomach.&nbsp; <br>]]>
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   <pubDate>Sat, 22 Dec 2012 11:38:52 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? :  Originally posted by PlacidHi...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=59438">honeto</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 21 December 2012 at 6:14pm<br /><br /> <div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Placid</strong></em><br /><br />Hi Islam,<br /><br />Quote: As I have said, only God is Lord and Savior, whereas you have been saying that you have taken Jesus as your "lord and savior".  That is shirk.  It is blasphemy and a clear violation of the 1st commandment.  For you to try to teach me about salvation is like a mechanic teaching a doctor about medicine.  It just won't work.<br /><br />Response: --- I agree with your last line. --- I have heard that Muslims have their own plan of salvation through their ‘good works,’ --- even though in the Quran it puts Faith first, just like it does in the NT. --- If you look at various verses you will see that it says, “Those who BELIEVE and do good works, will receive the reward.” --- The pattern is, Faith first, which leads to obedience, --- which leads to doing God’s will, and doing His ‘Good works’.<br /><br />However, on an interfaith Forum I believe it is the idea for us to express what we believe, so that we each may understand the other a little better.  <br /><br />--- When you and others asked me, “Who are you?” or “What are you?” or “Are you a Unitarian?” or “Are you a Jehovah’s Witness?” --- I answered by saying, “I don’t usually talk about myself, but since you asked ---“. <br />--- So I told you.<br /><br />Now you have shown a type of ‘exclusivism’ by saying “Only God is Lord, --- None of the disciples called Jesus Lord.” <br /><br />--- So I checked the Gospels for a list of those who called Jesus Lord, --- and that doesn’t include the times that He is called ‘The Lord Jesus,’ or ‘The Lord Jesus Christ.’ --- You see, Lord also means ‘Master.’<br />In the New King James Version, and some others, --- if it is written ‘lord’ it refers to an earthly ‘master.’ --- If it is written ‘Lord’ it refers to Jesus. --- If it is written ‘LORD’ it refers to God.  <br /><br />And Jesus said, “Why do you call Me Lord, Lord, and do not the things I say?”<br />And again He said, “You call me Lord, and so I am.”<br />And again he said, “In that day many will come to Me and say Lord, Lord, haven’t we done this in your name --- and that in your name?” --- And I will say, Depart from Me, I never knew you.”<br /><br />Again He said, “Not everyone who says to Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of MY Father in heaven.”<br /><br />Now here is the partial list in the Gospels where the speaker called Jesus “Lord.”<br />Matthew 7:21-22;  8:2,  6,  8,  21,  25;  --- 9:28; --- 12:1,  8; --- 13:51; --- 14:28,  30; --- 15:22,  25,  27; --- 16:22; --- 17:15; --- 18:21; --- 20:30,  31,  33; --- 21:3; --- 24:42; --- 25:11,  37,  44; --- 26;22; --- 28:6<br />Mark 9:24; --- 11:3; --- 16:19,  20. --- (Many more in Mark are the same as in Matthew.)<br />Luke 1:43,  45; --- 2:11; --- 5:8,  17; --- 6:5, 46; --- 7:6; --- 9:54,  57,  59, 61; --- 10:17,  40; --- 11:1, --- 12:41; --- 13:23; --- 17:5,  37; --- 18:41; --- 19:8; --- 22:33,  38,  49; --- 23:42.<br />John 6:34,  68; --- 8:11; --- 9:36,  38; ---11:3,  12,  21,  27,  32,  34,  39; --- 13:6,  9,  13,  25,  36,  37;  --- 14:5,  8,  22; --- 20:13,  18,  20,  25,  29; --- 21:7,  12,  15,  16,  17,  20; --- 21:21.<br /><br />How little you know about the Gospels which the angel Gabriel confirmed.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;  <br /><br /><br />Placid<br /><br /></div> <br /><br />Placid,<br />so are you saying that by calling someone Lord means ____? can you fill that out please.<br />Also, was Jesus the only one addressed as Lord in the Bible?<br />Hasan]]>
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   <pubDate>Fri, 21 Dec 2012 18:14:05 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? : Hi Islam,I notice you didn&amp;#039;t...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24200&amp;PID=171802#171802</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71448">Placid</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 21 December 2012 at 7:04am<br /><br />Hi Islam,<br /><br />I notice you didn't comment on the Poem that someone wrote about the tragedy of the 20 children, and how God takes care of little ones under the age of accountability.<br /><br />This is what we believe from the Scriptures although the details are unknown, --- but this answers the question from Post 1.<br /><br />I was going to ask you about God's destruction of Sodom and Gomorrah which is written in both Genesis and the Quran. --- Did God not destroy all the children who otherwise, would have grown up like their degraded and immoral parents?<br /><br />But rather, God removed this blemish on the land and would save the innocent children who were not of the age of accountability, --- as well as any true believers. <br /><br />Is that not God's justice --- and His right to do?<br /><br /><br />(We eill check Titus 2:13 next.)<br /><br /> ]]>
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   <pubDate>Fri, 21 Dec 2012 07:04:28 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? :  In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent,...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24200&amp;PID=171787#171787</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=53418">islamispeace</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 20 December 2012 at 5:42pm<br /><br />In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Placid</strong></em><br /><br />Response: --- I agree with your last line. --- I have heard that Muslims have their own plan of salvation through their ‘good works,’ --- even though in the Quran it puts Faith first, just like it does in the NT. --- If you look at various verses you will see that it says, “Those who BELIEVE and do good works, will receive the reward.” --- The pattern is, Faith first, which leads to obedience, --- which leads to doing God’s will, and doing His ‘Good works’.</div><br><br>You agreed with the last line, which means that you didn't agree with the rest of my rebuttal, specifically this part:<br><br>"As I have said, only God is Lord and Savior, whereas you have been saying that you have taken Jesus as your "lord and savior".  That is shirk.  It is blasphemy and a clear violation of the 1st commandment."<br><br>Do you disagree that only God is "Lord and Savior"?! <img src="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/smileys/smiley3.gif" border="0" align="absmiddle" alt="Shocked" /><br><br>And when did I say that belief is not essential to salvation?&nbsp; <br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Placid</strong></em><br /><br />However, on an interfaith Forum I believe it is the idea for us to express what we believe, so that we each may understand the other a little better.</div>&nbsp; <br><br>I agree, but it is also the purpose of an interfaith forum to ultimately acknowledge the truth, not the truth as we may see it, but the actual truth.&nbsp; This can only be done by looking at the evidence and using our common sense and reason.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Placid</strong></em><br /><br />--- When you and others asked me, “Who are you?” or “What are you?” or “Are you a Unitarian?” or “Are you a Jehovah’s Witness?” --- I answered by saying, “I don’t usually talk about myself, but since you asked ---“. <br>--- So I told you.</div><br><br>Why would you be so secretive about your religious background?&nbsp; What's the big deal in identifying your religious background?&nbsp; If you were hesitating, I would become suspicious that you are trying to sell something instead of actually trying to have an honest discussion.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Placid</strong></em><br /><br />Now you have shown a type of ‘exclusivism’ by saying “Only God is Lord, --- None of the disciples called Jesus Lord.”</div>&nbsp; <br><br>You are damn right that this is "exclusivism"!&nbsp; Why do you think we call ourselves "monotheists"?&nbsp; Are you a monotheist?&nbsp; Do you acknowledge the 1st Commandment?<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Placid</strong></em><br /><br />--- So I checked the Gospels for a list of those who called Jesus Lord, --- and that doesn’t include the times that He is called ‘The Lord Jesus,’ or ‘The Lord Jesus Christ.’ --- You see, Lord also means ‘Master.’<br>In the New King James Version, and some others, --- if it is written ‘lord’ it refers to an earthly ‘master.’ --- If it is written ‘Lord’ it refers to Jesus. --- If it is written ‘LORD’ it refers to God.</div><br><br>You insisted that Jesus is your "lord <u><i><b>and</b></i></u> savior".&nbsp; Clearly, you are implying that he is more than just your "master", which in itself is a problem, because Jesus was just a servant.&nbsp; His master was God.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Placid</strong></em><br /><br />How little you know about the Gospels which the angel Gabriel confirmed.</div><br><br>How little you know about me!&nbsp; I know the Gospels well, and I was already well aware of the verses you referred to.&nbsp; What you fail to realize is that the "Gospels" are not Jesus' words, but the words of those who came after him.&nbsp; <br><br>Perhaps you can explain why in Titus 2:13, Paul referred to Jesus as "the great god and savior":<br><br><font color="#0000FF">"<span id="en-NIV-29921" ="text="" titus-2-12"="">It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age,</span> <span id="en-NIV-29922" ="text="" titus-2-13"=""><sup ="versenum"="">13&nbsp;</sup>while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,</span> <span id="en-NIV-29923" ="text="" titus-2-14"=""><sup ="versenum"="">14&nbsp;</sup>who gave himself for us to redeem us from all wickedness and to purify for himself a people that are his very own, eager to do what is good.</span>" (Titus 2:12-14)</font><br><br>Do you agree that this is shirk and a clear violation of the 1st commandment?&nbsp; Be honest with yourself.&nbsp; It is your future that is at stake.&nbsp; You do me no favors by acknowledging the truth.&nbsp; You acknowledge it for your own good.<br><span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by islamispeace - 20 December 2012 at 5:43pm</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Thu, 20 Dec 2012 17:42:07 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? : Hi Islam,Quote: As I have said,...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24200&amp;PID=171678#171678</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71448">Placid</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 18 December 2012 at 6:09am<br /><br />Hi Islam,<br /><br />Quote: As I have said, only God is Lord and Savior, whereas you have been saying that you have taken Jesus as your "lord and savior".  That is shirk.  It is blasphemy and a clear violation of the 1st commandment.  For you to try to teach me about salvation is like a mechanic teaching a doctor about medicine.  It just won't work.<br /><br />Response: --- I agree with your last line. --- I have heard that Muslims have their own plan of salvation through their ‘good works,’ --- even though in the Quran it puts Faith first, just like it does in the NT. --- If you look at various verses you will see that it says, “Those who BELIEVE and do good works, will receive the reward.” --- The pattern is, Faith first, which leads to obedience, --- which leads to doing God’s will, and doing His ‘Good works’.<br /><br />However, on an interfaith Forum I believe it is the idea for us to express what we believe, so that we each may understand the other a little better.  <br /><br />--- When you and others asked me, “Who are you?” or “What are you?” or “Are you a Unitarian?” or “Are you a Jehovah’s Witness?” --- I answered by saying, “I don’t usually talk about myself, but since you asked ---“. <br />--- So I told you.<br /><br />Now you have shown a type of ‘exclusivism’ by saying “Only God is Lord, --- None of the disciples called Jesus Lord.” <br /><br />--- So I checked the Gospels for a list of those who called Jesus Lord, --- and that doesn’t include the times that He is called ‘The Lord Jesus,’ or ‘The Lord Jesus Christ.’ --- You see, Lord also means ‘Master.’<br />In the New King James Version, and some others, --- if it is written ‘lord’ it refers to an earthly ‘master.’ --- If it is written ‘Lord’ it refers to Jesus. --- If it is written ‘LORD’ it refers to God.  <br /><br />And Jesus said, “Why do you call Me Lord, Lord, and do not the things I say?”<br />And again He said, “You call me Lord, and so I am.”<br />And again he said, “In that day many will come to Me and say Lord, Lord, haven’t we done this in your name --- and that in your name?” --- And I will say, Depart from Me, I never knew you.”<br /><br />Again He said, “Not everyone who says to Me ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of MY Father in heaven.”<br /><br />Now here is the partial list in the Gospels where the speaker called Jesus “Lord.”<br />Matthew 7:21-22;  8:2,  6,  8,  21,  25;  --- 9:28; --- 12:1,  8; --- 13:51; --- 14:28,  30; --- 15:22,  25,  27; --- 16:22; --- 17:15; --- 18:21; --- 20:30,  31,  33; --- 21:3; --- 24:42; --- 25:11,  37,  44; --- 26;22; --- 28:6<br />Mark 9:24; --- 11:3; --- 16:19,  20. --- (Many more in Mark are the same as in Matthew.)<br />Luke 1:43,  45; --- 2:11; --- 5:8,  17; --- 6:5, 46; --- 7:6; --- 9:54,  57,  59, 61; --- 10:17,  40; --- 11:1, --- 12:41; --- 13:23; --- 17:5,  37; --- 18:41; --- 19:8; --- 22:33,  38,  49; --- 23:42.<br />John 6:34,  68; --- 8:11; --- 9:36,  38; ---11:3,  12,  21,  27,  32,  34,  39; --- 13:6,  9,  13,  25,  36,  37;  --- 14:5,  8,  22; --- 20:13,  18,  20,  25,  29; --- 21:7,  12,  15,  16,  17,  20; --- 21:21.<br /><br />How little you know about the Gospels which the angel Gabriel confirmed.&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;  <br /><br /><br />Placid<br /><br />]]>
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   <pubDate>Tue, 18 Dec 2012 06:09:02 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? : In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent,...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24200&amp;PID=171524#171524</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=53418">islamispeace</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 15 December 2012 at 7:57pm<br /><br />In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Placid</strong></em><br /><br />Response: --- Jesus was a Messenger of God, also the Savior, Redeemer and Messiah, --- though He came as a Servant. Jesus said in John 5:<br>24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. (You see, Jesus words were the Gospel Message that God gave to Him, mentioned in Surah 3:48-49, --- and 5:46-47. <br>--- This says, “He who HEARS Jesus’ words (who receives His words with understanding), --- and believes in Him (God) who sent Him (Jesus), --- shall not come into judgment, but has already passed from spiritual death --- to Spiritual life.</div><br><br>This only confirms my point.&nbsp; Jesus (pbuh) said that all who believed his message, which came from God, would achieve salvation.&nbsp; Yet, he never said to them that he was their "lord".&nbsp; In fact, he went out of his way to reiterate that only God is "Lord" of all.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Placid</strong></em><br /><br />Response: --- Do you really follow the teachings of Muhammad? <br>When I was told by a Moderator, “If you want to know about Islam, read the Quran,” --- I thought, how wonderful, it is all here, I will find out what they believe.<br><br>--- I checked what God gave Muhammad to teach, --- like Surah 3:<br>2 God! There is no God but He, - the Living, the Self-Subsisting, Eternal.<br>3. It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus)<br>4 Before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong). Then those who reject Faith in the Signs of God will suffer the severest penalty, and God is Exalted in Might, Lord of Retribution.<br>7 He it is Who hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture wherein are clear revelations - they are the substance of the Book ---- (and others which are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is doubt pursue, forsooth, that which is allegorical seeking to cause dissension by seeking to explain it.) ---  None knoweth its explanation save Allah. And those who are of sound instruction say: We believe therein; the whole is from our Lord; but only men of understanding really heed.<br><br>--- I thought, Wow! --- I can agree with this.<br>2 God is Almighty and Eternal.<br>3 He sent down the teaching in truth step by step, ‘confirming’ the former Scriptures (without error) in the same way He sent down the Torah, (Law) to Moses, and the Gospel (Injil) to Jesus.<br>4 The ‘criterion of right and wrong’ --- The Ten Commandments to Moses and Aaron, (Surah 21:48)<br>7 The basics of the Book, Old and New Testament, and the ‘confirmation’ in the Quran, --- (and the division of those who argue about the truth which God revealed) --- Then the proclamation that no one knows the interpretation except God (and those He reveals it to), --- then the conclusion that the whole Book of the the Scriptures is from the Lord, --- but only men of understanding, really get it.<br><br>This said to me that since Muhammad was called to be a messenger of God in 600 AD, and the angel Gabriel confirming everything that he revealed to Zechariah and Mary in the Gospels  proves that everything that follows is true, because, if it wasn’t, --- Gabriel would not have approved it, would he?</div><br><br>The Quran was referring to the original Torah and Gospel, not the books we know today as the Tanakh and the New Testament.&nbsp; It also states that both the Jews and Christians forgot a large part of the message that was brought to them:<br><br><font color="#333300">"But because of their breach of their covenant, We cursed them, and made their hearts grow hard; <u><b>they change the words from their (right) places and forget a good part of the message that was sent them</b></u>, nor wilt thou cease to find them- barring a few - ever bent on (new) deceits: but forgive them, and overlook (their misdeeds): for Allah loveth those who are kind.<br><br><u><b>From those, too, who call themselves Christians, We did take a covenant, but they forgot a good part of the message that was sent them</b></u>: so we estranged them, with enmity and hatred between the one and the other, to the day of judgment. And soon will Allah show them what it is they have done." (5:13-14)</font><br><br>Also, the Quran referred to other previous scriptures, some of which obviously have not survived:<br><br><font color="#333300">"</font><font color="#333300">Nay, is he not acquainted with what is in the Books of Moses- </font><font color="#333300">And of Abraham who fulfilled his engagements?-" (53:36-37)<br><br>"And this is in the Books of the earliest (Revelation),- The Books of Abraham and Moses." (87:18-19)</font><br><br>These scriptures were the true revelations.&nbsp; Some have been lost.&nbsp; Others have been corrupted and are no longer reliable.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Placid</strong></em><br /><br />There are these verses that are very complimentary to Christians in Surah 5:<br>82 Strongest among men in enmity to the believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say, "We are Christians": because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant.<br>83 And when they listen to the revelation received by the Apostle, thou wilt see their eyes overflowing with tears, for they recognise the truth: they pray: "Our Lord! we believe; write us down among the witnesses.<br>84 "What cause can we have not to believe in God and the truth which has come to us, seeing that we long for our Lord to admit us to the company of the righteous?"<br>85 And for this their prayer hath God rewarded them with gardens, with rivers flowing underneath, - their eternal home. Such is the recompense of those who do good.<br>86 But those who reject Faith and belie our Signs, - they shall be companions of Hell-fire.<br><br>--- Note: --- What Muhammad was teaching had to be truths of Scripture that the Christians already believed, or they would not have become ‘weepy’ from ‘recognizing the truth’ --- (so it couldn’t have been some new doctrine that they had not heard of, --- could it?)<br>--- This says that because of the faith and prayers of believing Christians, they will go to their ‘Eternal home’ with God.</div><br><br>You need to study the historical context of these verses before making assumptions.&nbsp; These verse were revealed specifically with regard to the Negus, the ruler of Ethiopia.&nbsp; When he heard one of the Muslims refugees recite the Quranic story of Mary and Jesus, he immediately recognized it as the truth and, it is said, became a Muslim.&nbsp; Note that the Quranic story says nothing about Jesus being the son of God, yet the Negus still believed it.&nbsp; You can read about it the whole episode here:<br><a href="http://www.ilmfruits.com/2006/jafar-ibn-abu-talibs-speech-to-the-negus/" target="_blank"><br>http://www.ilmfruits.com/2006/jafar-ibn-abu-talibs-speech-to-the-negus/</a><br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Placid</strong></em><br /><br />There is a hint that Muhammad was teaching about Jesus, because Jesus was the Sign given in Surah 3, where he said:<br>50 I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear God, and obey me.<br>51 "'It is God Who is my Lord and your Lord; then worship Him. This is a Way that is straight.'"</div>&nbsp; <br><br>I already mentioned this verse myself.&nbsp; It proves that Jesus (pbuh) never told anyone to take him as their "lord" but instead taught them that Allah (swt) was Lord of all.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Placid</strong></em><br /><br />-- You see, these are the truths that Christians follow. --- Jesus was the Sign from the prophecy in Isaiah, --- This was the Sign fulfilled in Matthew that Jesus would be born of a virgin.<br>This was what the angel said to the shepherds, “This will be the Sign unto you, you will find the Babe wrapped in swaddling clothes, lying in a manger.” Luke 2:12.</div><br><br>No, you don't.&nbsp; Where in the Quran did Jesus say that he had come to die for everyone's sins?&nbsp; Where did he say that we should take him as our "lord"?&nbsp; <br><br>Just because there are similarities between some parts of the Gospels and the Quran does not mean they are in complete agreement.&nbsp; If you read the whole Quran, you will find many differences, one of which is the Christian claim that Jesus (pbuh) was God's "son".<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Placid</strong></em><br /><br />Also, I used this verse, and said that it gives the Christians assurance of their reward, --- Surah 3:<br>55 Behold! God said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection:<br>56 "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."<br>--- Notice the warning again, “And to those who reject FAITH.”<br><br>In response to my suggestion that this gives ‘the followers of Jesus’ direct assurance from God, --- because God said it. <br><br>--- You said, Quote: Anyone can give you "assurance".  That doesn't mean it is true.  Just because your scripture tells you that you are "saved" doesn't make it so.<br><br>--- I wonder if this is not a most contradictory statement?</div><br><br>You are mixing up different posts.&nbsp; My response above was made on <a href="http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24200&amp;PID=171385#171385" target="_blank">12/11</a> to answer the following question from you:<br><br>"That is true dedication, so do you have the assurance of eternal life, as the Scriptures say we can have? --- (I’m not inviting you to be like me, --- but how are you in your present level of faith in God?)"<br><br>I was responding to your Christian belief that you have an assurance of salvation.&nbsp; <br><br>Now, the verses you refer to are talking about the true followers of Jesus (pbuh), i.e. those who did not corrupt the message.&nbsp; Some Islamic scholars, such as Ibn Kathir, believed that these verses were referring to Christians and Jews, with the former being "closer" to the truth since they believed in Jesus (pbuh), even though they were still unbelievers, while the Jews rejected Jesus (pbuh) outright.&nbsp; In any case, it does not mean that Christians are true believers in Jesus (pbuh).&nbsp; The Quran makes that clear in many places.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Placid</strong></em><br /><br />So you are saying, --- Though GOD SAID IT, --- in the Quran, --- it doesn’t make it true. ---</div><br><br>Don't put words in my mouth.&nbsp; That is really annoying.<br><br>Your misquotes of the Quran do not prove your points.&nbsp; The Quran clearly refers to both Jews and Christians as unbelievers and does not say that Muslims must believe in the books now called the "Tanakh" and "New Testament".&nbsp; <br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Placid</strong></em><br /><br />---(You see, --- your verse in the Quran ‘confirms’ what the Gospel teaches about assurance of salvation through faith and obedience. --- Notice the wording, “THOSE WHO FOLLOW THEE.  --- This implies both Faith and Obedience. In the Gospel Jesus said “Follow Me” --- In Surah 3:50 Jesus said “Obey Me.”)</div><br><br>Well, of course it does!&nbsp; All people that were sent prophets were required to believe in them and follow them.&nbsp; How does that "confirm" your belief that Jesus (pbuh) is your "savior"?&nbsp; The Quran does not refer to the prophets as "saviors" so why would Jesus (pbuh) be any different?<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Placid</strong></em><br /><br />-- Or, are you saying: --- “Just because it says it “In the Quran” doesn’t make it so?”<br>--- Or, in saying “Anyone can give you assurance.” --- Does that mean a secular voice can give the same assurance that God’s Promise can?<br>--- So, where is your faith in our one Eternal God, who is the only One who CAN give assurance of salvation?</div><br><br>Again, you mixed up two different posts.&nbsp; Go back and read my responses carefully.&nbsp; <br><br>As I have said, only God is Lord and Savior, whereas you have been saying that you have taken Jesus as your "lord and savior".&nbsp; That is shirk.&nbsp; It is blasphemy and a clear violation of the 1st commandment.&nbsp; For you to try teach me about salvation is like a mechanic teaching a doctor about medicine.&nbsp; It just won't work.<br><br><br>]]>
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   <pubDate>Sat, 15 Dec 2012 19:57:38 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? : May be we need another Andalucia,...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=59438">honeto</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 15 December 2012 at 7:36pm<br /><br />May be we need another Andalucia, another Tariq bin Ziad?<br />Hasan]]>
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   <pubDate>Sat, 15 Dec 2012 19:36:09 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? :  In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent,...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=53418">islamispeace</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 15 December 2012 at 3:06pm<br /><br />In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by islamispeace</strong></em><br /><br /><br>It extends out of love for God.&nbsp; God wants us to give in charity.&nbsp; That is enough for us.&nbsp; Yes, helping our enemies and being kind to them is also recommended.&nbsp; A perfect example of that is in how the prophet Muhammad (pbuh) pardoned the Jewish woman who served him a poisoned lamb or how he exonerated the people of Mecca (those who had persecuted him and his followers for close to 20 years) when he conquered the city in a blood-less battle.&nbsp; Even when he fought against his enemies, he generally showed them mercy...unlike the Israelites who were told to kill everyone off (babies included).&nbsp; <br></div><br><br>What do you think it would take to put an end to the prejudice between muslims and Jews?<br></div><br><br>I think the resolution of the Palestinian-Israeli conflict would go a long way to ending the unfortunate hatred that exists on both sides.&nbsp; <br>]]>
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   <pubDate>Sat, 15 Dec 2012 15:06:39 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? :   In the Name of Allah, the...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=53418">islamispeace</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 15 December 2012 at 2:58pm<br /><br />In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Bunter</strong></em><br /><br />Here are just some of your sarcastic words: thin-skinned, dude, too dense to understand, Childish finger pointing, ignorant, grow up, lack common sense etc. On the one hand you tell us Allah is beneficent and tell stories of Mohammed's magnanimity and then effectively repudiate it with you attitude and words.  </div><br><br><img src="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif" border="0" align="absmiddle" alt="LOL" /> You have got to be one of the touchiest people I have ever met.&nbsp; What's wrong with using a little humor and sarcasm in a conversation?&nbsp; Is it my fault that you get insulted so easily?&nbsp; <br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Bunter</strong></em><br /><br />If we look at the passage in 1 Samuel 15 and the first few verses and we know this is history whether we like it or not.</div><br><br>No, this is your own version of "history".&nbsp; Also, if it is indeed authentic history, it remains to be proven whether the Israelites just killed everyone because they wanted to and could OR whether they were only following God's command.&nbsp; <br><br>It is only as "historical" as Hitler's claim that he was chosen to do the work of "Divine Providence".&nbsp; We know that Hitler killed millions of people but we don't actually buy his claim that he was only doing God's work, do we?<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Bunter</strong></em><br /><br />So it maybe that God ordains punishment for the Amalekites who were known to be exceedingly wicked. We also know from this passage that Saul had been rejected by God as King because of his disobedience - that is more or less the context plus one has to remember how the Amalekites treated the Israelites when they left Egypt. Now I feel very unhappy with this story as I feel unhappy with any similar thing, I feel unhappy that according to the Quran people will suffer the worst possible pain for all eternity - do you feel the same or do you think unbelievers get what they deserve since they are guilty and punishment is their due according to you.</div><br><br>You continue to make excuses and change the subject despite feeling "unhappy" without realizing that you are excusing the <u><i><b>KILLING OF BABIES</b></i></u>.&nbsp; <br><br>I feel sad that all unbelievers will go to Hell, as <u><b>BOTH</b></u> the Quran and Bible state, because I would rather they all go to Paradise, but I do <u><b>not</b></u> feel sad that only those who deserve this punishment will go there.&nbsp; It is absolutely absurd to compare this to the killings of the innocent, let alone of babies.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Bunter</strong></em><br /><br />As I have said before, both Jews and Christians regard passages like this as 's*****p', meaning we agree that they happened but cannot understand exactly why. You say that this verse shows that the Bible is not the word of God but then you disregard other verse that tell of love and compassion - the issue is that why would anyone put in such verses if it were not true? Its obvious to any one these verses are difficult and uncomfortable and if one wants to tamper with the text there is every reason to leave them out.</div><br><br>Obviously, the people who put these verses into the text could have done so for many reasons, including to scare their enemies.&nbsp; I don't know the exact reason and it is absurd of you to ask what was going on in the minds of people who lived thousands of years ago.&nbsp; <br><br>What you said above is actually why I believe the Bible is not God's word.&nbsp; God's word does not contain inconsistencies.&nbsp; The Bible makes God command the slaughter of the innocent in one place and then states that God is "loving" and "compassionate" in another.&nbsp; How can a "loving" and "compassionate" God command the slaughter of babies?&nbsp; The only answer you can give is "we don't know why", when I would think the obvious answer would be "He wouldn't".<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Bunter</strong></em><br /><br />You say that everyone has the chance to 'turn things around' but what about those who have never heard the message of salvation from the BIble or Quran, should they suffer enterally simply because they never heard? Why does God allow babies to die at all?</div><br><br>If you knew even a little about Islam, you would know the answer to that question already.&nbsp; As Sheik Salman al-Oadah of "IslamToday.com" states:<br><br><font color="#0000FF">"...they will be tested in the Hereafter. Allah will send them a messenger in the Hereafter. Whoever obeys the Messenger will enter Paradise and whoever disobeys him will go to Hell. Therefore, some of the people who did not receive the call to Islam will go to Paradise and some will go to Hell, depending on the outcome of this test." <a href="http://en.islamtoday.net/node/1320" target="_blank">&#091;1&#093;</a></font><br>&nbsp;<br>He also quotes the Quran and Sunnah which state that Allah (swt) only punishes those who have heard the message and rejected it, as in the following:<br><br><font color="#333300">"Nor would We punish until We had sent a messenger (to give warning).” &#091;<em>Sûrah al-Isrâ’</em>: 15&#093;</font><br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Bunter</strong></em><br /><br />Only Muslims it seems cry Allah Akba when they kill even indiscriminately - why is that? Why is it that Muslim will say it is better to die for Allah when Moses in Deuteronomy 30:19 Says "I call heaven and earth to witness this day against you that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and curses; therefore choose life, that your descendants may live."</div>&nbsp; <br><br>Changing the subject again?&nbsp; What does the fact that some "Muslims" invoke Allah (swt) when they kill "even indiscriminately" have to do with the Bible's claim that the Israelites killed babies at the behest of God?&nbsp; How desperate can you get?<br><br>Also, did you know that in the Shabra and Shatila massacres (have you even heard of them?), the Christian Lebanese militias carved crosses into the bodies of their Palestinian Muslim victims <a href="http://suite101.com/article/remembering-the-horrendous-sabra-and-shatila-massacre-a411495" target="_blank">&#091;2&#093;</a>?<br><br>Or did you know that an Israeli rabbi recently stated that it is allowed for Israeli soldiers to kill Palestinian children <a href="http://www.haaretz.com/news/chabad-rabbi-jews-should-kill-arab-men-women-and-children-during-war-1.277616" target="_blank">&#091;3&#093;</a>?&nbsp; <br><br>We can go on and on about people misusing religion but that is not the issue here, right?&nbsp; Or is it? &nbsp;&nbsp; <br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Bunter</strong></em><br /><br />But you are trying to prove it by picking ONLY verses or sections that suit your case, you are cherry picking and that is hardly and honest assessment is it?</div>&nbsp; <br><br>An "honest assessment"?&nbsp; When did I say that the Bible is <i><u><b>entirely</b></u></i> the work of man?&nbsp; I never said that.&nbsp; I believe the Bible contains some truths that are from God, but I also believe that much of it is the result of man-made corruptions.&nbsp; One such corruption is the Bible's claim that God commanded the Israelites to kill babies.&nbsp; It is precisely these types of verses which prove that the Bible is not God's word.&nbsp; God's word would not contain such monstrous verses.&nbsp; That is why I "cherry pick" these verses.&nbsp; It is because they prove that the Bible is the word of man, not God.&nbsp; <br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Bunter</strong></em><br /><br />I can go through the Quran and just pick verses I don't like and claim therefore it cannot be from God. For example, does the Quran call you to die for Allah, if so I rejects it because God calls us to life,  the Quran tells you that Muslims are the best of all people, this is obvious;y untrue so I rejects the Quran, the Quran tells of unimaginable suffering for unbelievers so I reject it and so on.</div><br><br><img src="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif" border="0" align="absmiddle" alt="LOL" /> The only problem is that you are comparing apples to oranges!&nbsp; There is a big difference in <u><b>misquoting</b></u> the Quran (which you do pretty well) or not "liking" certain things about the Quran such as people suffering in Hell for eternity for what they <u><i><b>consciously</b></i></u> did and <i><u><b>correctly quoting</b></u></i> the Bible and not liking things like saying God commanded the <b><i><u>killing of babies</u></i></b>.&nbsp; <br><br>Also, as I said, the Bible also says that all unbelievers will go to Hell.&nbsp; I showed the proof.&nbsp; But unlike your Bible, the Quran does not say that God commanded the killing of babies.&nbsp; <br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Bunter</strong></em><br /><br />Your argument for up to four wives and concubines is hopeless. Sure it is generally said that there are more women that men but it is also know that accurate figures are almost impossible to get. In any case there is certainly not 4 times as many women plus neither then Quran or hadith offer that nonsense as a reason. It is also in my view to treat all your wives equally, the very idea that I would leave my wife for another I find anathema. You keep mentioning common sense but do you know what it means? Its fine for everyday things like crossing the road but beyond that its very unreliable and often it only means that your ego give you an authority that is totally unwarranted. Try reading Duncan Watts's book "Everything is Obvious" and see what it really amounts to.</div><br><br>Regardless of your personal opinions, how is the Quran's permission to marry up to 4 wives similar to the Bible's claim that God allowed infanticide?&nbsp; Whose argument is really "hopeless"?&nbsp; <br><br>I think most people would agree that killing children is evil.&nbsp; They would base that on their common sense.&nbsp; In fact, just yesterday, some monstrous psycho burst into a school in the state of Connecticut and gunned down 20 children and 7 adults before killing himself <a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/16/nyregi&#111;n/gunman-kills-20-children-at-school-in-c&#111;nnecticut-28-dead-in-all.html?_r=0" target="_blank">&#091;4&#093;</a>.&nbsp; Any sane person would rightfully call this act a monstrous crime.&nbsp; I am sure you agree.&nbsp; What would they be basing that on?&nbsp; Is it not common sense?&nbsp; If not common sense, then what?&nbsp; Please do tell.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Bunter</strong></em><br /><br />Interesting, tell me is there ANYTHING in Islam or its history you would be ashamed of or sad about? For example, you mentioned your prophet about but he is also mention in about 40 assassinations, killings he approved of because for example they insulted him?</div>&nbsp; <br><br><img src="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif" border="0" align="absmiddle" alt="LOL" /> See, with these kinds of ignorant rants, you expose yourself as a biased individual!&nbsp; Where did you get this information from?&nbsp; Was it an Islamic source or was it some brainless anti-Muslim website run by a pseudo-scholar with no knowledge of Islam?&nbsp; Do tell.&nbsp; <br><br>Perhaps you can provide examples of these "assassinations".&nbsp; Only then can I attempt to comment on them. &nbsp;&nbsp; <br><br>By the way, you still have not answered my question: <br><br>Are you pro-life or pro-choice?<br><span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by islamispeace - 15 December 2012 at 4:19pm</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Sat, 15 Dec 2012 14:58:14 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? : Placid,you wrote above:&amp;#034;There...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=59438">honeto</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 15 December 2012 at 12:38pm<br /><br />Placid,<br />you wrote above:<br /><br />"There is a hint that Muhammad was teaching about Jesus, because Jesus was the Sign given in Surah 3, where he said: <br />50 I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear God, and obey me. <br />51 "'It is God Who is my Lord and your Lord; then worship Him. This is a Way that is straight.'" <br /><br />--- You see, these are the truths that Christians follow. --- Jesus was the Sign from the prophecy in Isaiah, --- This was the Sign fulfilled in Matthew that Jesus would be born of a virgin. "<br /><br />And that is true, we believe that, the problem comes when some who also claim to be Christians make Jesus, who was a sign for mankind as he was born to a virgin woman, God. or begotten son of God. That is in complete contrast to the qualities of God. A true beleiver can never say that a humble servant of God was God.<br />Hasan<span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by honeto - 15 December 2012 at 12:41pm</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Sat, 15 Dec 2012 12:38:39 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? :  Originally posted by Caringheart Originally...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=69381">iec786</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 15 December 2012 at 12:28pm<br /><br /> <div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by islamispeace</strong></em><br /><br /><br />It extends out of love for God.  God wants us to give in charity.  That is enough for us.  Yes, helping our enemies and being kind to them is also recommended.  A perfect example of that is in how the prophet Muhammad (pbuh) pardoned the Jewish woman who served him a poisoned lamb or how he exonerated the people of Mecca (those who had persecuted him and his followers for close to 20 years) when he conquered the city in a blood-less battle.  Even when he fought against his enemies, he generally showed them mercy...unlike the Israelites who were told to kill everyone off (babies included).  <br /><br /><br /></div>What do you think it would take to put an end to the prejudice between muslims and Jews?</div> <br /><br /><br /><br />Hi Caringheart,<br /><br />Get the illegal apartheid state of Israel to dismantle return of the land to the people who lived there prior to 1948 get rid of the Zionist maybe to Las Vegas.What about Europe in Germany where they came from or England.That would be a start.  ]]>
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   <pubDate>Sat, 15 Dec 2012 12:28:36 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? : Hi Islam,You said) Quote: &#8220;I...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71448">Placid</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 15 December 2012 at 5:54am<br /><br />Hi Islam,<br /><br />You said) Quote: “I follow the teachings of Muhammad,”<br />So I want to continue a little more with the things that Muhammad taught, that you should agree with. <br /><br />There are these verses that are very complimentary to Christians in Surah 5:<br />82 Strongest among men in enmity to the believers wilt thou find the Jews and Pagans; and nearest among them in love to the believers wilt thou find those who say, "We are Christians": because amongst these are men devoted to learning and men who have renounced the world, and they are not arrogant.<br />83 And when they listen to the revelation received by the Apostle, thou wilt see their eyes overflowing with tears, for they recognise the truth: they pray: "Our Lord! we believe; write us down among the witnesses.<br />84 "What cause can we have not to believe in God and the truth which has come to us, seeing that we long for our Lord to admit us to the company of the righteous?"<br />85 And for this their prayer hath God rewarded them with gardens, with rivers flowing underneath, - their eternal home. Such is the recompense of those who do good.<br />86 But those who reject Faith and belie our Signs, - they shall be companions of Hell-fire.<br /><br />--- Note: --- What Muhammad was teaching had to be truths of Scripture that the Christians already believed, or they would not have become ‘weepy’ from ‘recognizing the truth’ --- (so it couldn’t have been some new doctrine that they had not heard of, --- could it?)<br />--- This says that because of the faith and prayers of believing Christians, they will go to their ‘Eternal home’ with God.<br /><br />There is a hint that Muhammad was teaching about Jesus, because Jesus was the Sign given in Surah 3, where he said:<br />50 I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear God, and obey me.<br />51 "'It is God Who is my Lord and your Lord; then worship Him. This is a Way that is straight.'"<br /><br />--- You see, these are the truths that Christians follow. --- Jesus was the Sign from the prophecy in Isaiah, --- This was the Sign fulfilled in Matthew that Jesus would be born of a virgin.<br />This was what the angel said to the shepherds, “This will be the Sign unto you, you will find the Babe wrapped in swaddling clothes, lying in a manger.” Luke 2:12.<br /><br />Now notice the warning in verse 86:<br />--- But those who reject Faith and belie our "Signs," - they shall be companions of Hell-fire.<br /><br />Also, I used this verse, and said that it gives the Christians assurance of their reward, --- Surah 3:<br />55 Behold! God said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection:<br />56 "As to those who reject faith, I will punish them with terrible agony in this world and in the Hereafter, nor will they have anyone to help."<br />--- Notice the warning again, “And to those who reject FAITH.”<br /><br />In response to my suggestion that this gives ‘the followers of Jesus’ direct assurance from God, --- because God said it. <br /><br />--- You said, Quote: Anyone can give you "assurance".  That doesn't mean it is true.  Just because your scripture tells you that you are "saved" doesn't make it so.<br /><br />--- I wonder if this is not a most contradictory statement?<br />God said --- In the Quran, “I will make those who follow thee (Jesus) superior to those who reject faith.”<br /><br />So you are saying, --- Though GOD SAID IT, --- in the Quran, --- it doesn’t make it true. --- You go on to say:<br />Quote: Just because your scripture (In the Quran) tells you that you are "saved" doesn't make it so. --- <br /><br />---(You see, --- your verse in the Quran ‘confirms’ what the Gospel teaches about assurance of salvation through faith and obedience. --- Notice the wording, “THOSE WHO FOLLOW THEE.  --- This implies both Faith and Obedience. In the Gospel Jesus said “Follow Me” --- In Surah 3:50 Jesus said “Obey Me.”)<br /> <br />--- Or, are you saying: --- “Just because it says it “In the Quran” doesn’t make it so?”<br />--- Or, in saying “Anyone can give you assurance.” --- Does that mean a secular voice can give the same assurance that God’s Promise can?<br />--- So, where is your faith in our one Eternal God, who is the only One who CAN give assurance of salvation?<br /><br /><br />Placid<br /><br />]]>
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   <pubDate>Sat, 15 Dec 2012 05:54:28 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? :  Originally posted by islamispeaceIn...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24200&amp;PID=171480#171480</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=66457">bunter</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 15 December 2012 at 4:30am<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by islamispeace</strong></em><br /><br />In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...</div><br />Here are just some of your sarcastic words: thin-skinned, dude, too dense to understand, Childish finger pointing, ignorant, grow up, lack common sense etc. On the one hand you tell us Allah is beneficent and tell stories of Mohammed's magnanimity and then effectively repudiate it with you attitude and words.  <br /><br /><div class="BBquote">So God is "loving and just" yet He ordered the killings of infants.  Right...</div><br />If we look at the passage in 1 Samuel 15 and the first few verses and we know this is history whether we like it or not. So it maybe that God ordains punishment for the Amalekites who were known to be exceedingly wicked. We also know from this passage that Saul had been rejected by God as King because of his disobedience - that is more or less the context plus one has to remember how the Amalekites treated the Israelites when they left Egypt. Now I feel very unhappy with this story as I feel unhappy with any similar thing, I feel unhappy that according to the Quran people will suffer the worst possible pain for all eternity - do you feel the same or do you think unbelievers get what they deserve since they are guilty and punishment is their due according to you. <br /><br />As I have said before, both Jews and Christians regard passages like this as 's*****p', meaning we agree that they happened but cannot understand exactly why. You say that this verse shows that the Bible is not the word of God but then you disregard other verse that tell of love and compassion - the issue is that why would anyone put in such verses if it were not true? Its obvious to any one these verses are difficult and uncomfortable and if one wants to tamper with the text there is every reason to leave them out. <br /><br />You say that everyone has the chance to 'turn things around' but what about those who have never heard the message of salvation from the BIble or Quran, should they suffer enterally simply because they never heard? Why does God allow babies to die at all? Only Muslims it seems cry Allah Akba when they kill even indiscriminately - why is that? Why is it that Muslim will say it is better to die for Allah when Moses in Deuteronomy 30:19 Says "I call heaven and earth to witness this day against you that I have set before you life and death, the blessing and curses; therefore choose life, that your descendants may live."<br /><br /><div class="BBquote">What I am trying to prove is that the Bible cannot be God's Word. This thread is one of the proofs of this claim. The Bible contains alleged commands by God that called for merciless destruction and baby-killing.  What kind of God-fearing person would actually believe that God would order such monstrous behavior?  This is the same God who said "thou shalt not kill".  The same God who said in the Quran that if anyone killed a person unjustly, it would be as if he had killed all of mankind (5:32).</div><br />But you are trying to prove it by picking ONLY verses or sections that suit your case, you are cherry picking and that is hardly and honest assessment is it? I can go through the Quran and just pick verses I don't like and claim therefore it cannot be from God. For example, does the Quran call you to die for Allah, if so I rejects it because God calls us to life,  the Quran tells you that Muslims are the best of all people, this is obvious;y untrue so I rejects the Quran, the Quran tells of unimaginable suffering for unbelievers so I reject it and so on.<br /><br />Your argument for up to four wives and concubines is hopeless. Sure it is generally said that there are more women that men but it is also know that accurate figures are almost impossible to get. In any case there is certainly not 4 times as many women plus neither then Quran or hadith offer that nonsense as a reason. It is also in my view to treat all your wives equally, the very idea that I would leave my wife for another I find anathema. You keep mentioning common sense but do you know what it means? Its fine for everyday things like crossing the road but beyond that its very unreliable and often it only means that your ego give you an authority that is totally unwarranted. Try reading Duncan Watts's book "Everything is Obvious" and see what it really amounts to.<br /><br />&#091;/Quote&#093;It extends out of love for God. God wants us to give in charity.  That is enough for us.  Yes, helping our enemies and being kind to them is also recommended.  A perfect example of that is in how the prophet Muhammad (pbuh) pardoned the Jewish woman who served him a poisoned lamb or how he exonerated the people of Mecca (those who had persecuted him and his followers for close to 20 years) when he conquered the city in a blood-less battle.  Even when he fought against his enemies, he generally showed them mercy...unlike the Israelites who were told to kill everyone off (babies included).&#091;/QUOTE&#093; <br />Interesting, tell me is there ANYTHING in Islam or its history you would be ashamed of or sad about? For example, you mentioned your prophet about but he is also mention in about 40 assassinations, killings he approved of because for example they insulted him?]]>
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   <pubDate>Sat, 15 Dec 2012 04:30:06 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? :   Originally posted by islamispeace It...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24200&amp;PID=171462#171462</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=69566">Caringheart</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 14 December 2012 at 5:42pm<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by islamispeace</strong></em><br /><br /><br>It extends out of love for God.&nbsp; God wants us to give in charity.&nbsp; That is enough for us.&nbsp; Yes, helping our enemies and being kind to them is also recommended.&nbsp; A perfect example of that is in how the prophet Muhammad (pbuh) pardoned the Jewish woman who served him a poisoned lamb or how he exonerated the people of Mecca (those who had persecuted him and his followers for close to 20 years) when he conquered the city in a blood-less battle.&nbsp; Even when he fought against his enemies, he generally showed them mercy...unlike the Israelites who were told to kill everyone off (babies included).&nbsp; <br></div><br><br>What do you think it would take to put an end to the prejudice between muslims and Jews?<br>]]>
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   <pubDate>Fri, 14 Dec 2012 17:42:08 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? : Hi Again,You have many questions...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24200&amp;PID=171459#171459</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71448">Placid</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 14 December 2012 at 4:32pm<br /><br />Hi Again,<br /><br />You have many questions so I will just keep answering them.<br />Quote: The teachings Jesus (pbuh) brought were not his, but God's.  Therefore, Jesus should not be taken as your "Lord", but only God.  Taking a man as you "Lord" is a violation of the 1st Commandment. <br /><br />Response: --- Jesus was a Messenger of God, also the Savior, Redeemer and Messiah, --- though He came as a Servant. Jesus said in John 5:<br />24 “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life. (You see, Jesus words were the Gospel Message that God gave to Him, mentioned in Surah 3:48-49, --- and 5:46-47. <br />--- This says, “He who HEARS Jesus’ words (who receives His words with understanding), --- and believes in Him (God) who sent Him (Jesus), --- shall not come into judgment, but has already passed from spiritual death --- to Spiritual life.<br /> <br /><br />Quote: Let me give you an example.  I follow the teachings of Muhammad (pbuh), but I would never call him my "Lord".<br /><br />Response: --- Do you really follow the teachings of Muhammad? <br />When I was told by a Moderator, “If you want to know about Islam, read the Quran,” --- I thought, how wonderful, it is all here, I will find out what they believe.<br /><br />--- I checked what God gave Muhammad to teach, --- like Surah 3:<br />2 God! There is no God but He, - the Living, the Self-Subsisting, Eternal.<br />3. It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it; and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus)<br />4 Before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the criterion (of judgment between right and wrong). Then those who reject Faith in the Signs of God will suffer the severest penalty, and God is Exalted in Might, Lord of Retribution.<br />7 He it is Who hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture wherein are clear revelations - they are the substance of the Book ---- (and others which are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is doubt pursue, forsooth, that which is allegorical seeking to cause dissension by seeking to explain it.) ---  None knoweth its explanation save Allah. And those who are of sound instruction say: We believe therein; the whole is from our Lord; but only men of understanding really heed.<br /><br />--- I thought, Wow! --- I can agree with this.<br />2 God is Almighty and Eternal.<br />3 He sent down the teaching in truth step by step, ‘confirming’ the former Scriptures (without error) in the same way He sent down the Torah, (Law) to Moses, and the Gospel (Injil) to Jesus.<br />4 The ‘criterion of right and wrong’ --- The Ten Commandments to Moses and Aaron, (Surah 21:48)<br />7 The basics of the Book, Old and New Testament, and the ‘confirmation’ in the Quran, --- (and the division of those who argue about the truth which God revealed) --- Then the proclamation that no one knows the interpretation except God (and those He reveals it to), --- then the conclusion that the whole Book of the the Scriptures is from the Lord, --- but only men of understanding, really get it.<br /><br />This said to me that since Muhammad was called to be a messenger of God in 600 AD, and the angel Gabriel confirming everything that he revealed to Zechariah and Mary in the Gospels  proves that everything that follows is true, because, if it wasn’t, --- Gabriel would not have approved it, would he?<br /><br /><br />Placid<br /><br />]]>
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   <pubDate>Fri, 14 Dec 2012 16:32:03 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? : islamispeace (?)How is it that...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24200&amp;PID=171456#171456</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=69566">Caringheart</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 14 December 2012 at 3:25pm<br /><br />islamispeace (?)<br><br>How is it that you excuse your rudeness by saying others who call attention to it are thin skinned?&nbsp; It has little to do with being 'thin skinned', and only to do with you and your need for rudeness in conversation.<br><br>Salaam,<br>CH<br>]]>
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   <pubDate>Fri, 14 Dec 2012 15:25:14 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? : Hi Islam,Quote: --- Also, how...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71448">Placid</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 14 December 2012 at 1:20pm<br /><br />Hi Islam,<br /><br />Quote: --- Also, how can you claim Jesus as your "savior" if you don't believe he is God?  Isn't God the only Savior?<br /><br />Response: --- As I explained on a different topic, it says in the Prophecy in Isaiah 7:<br />14. Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, the virgin shall conceive and bear a Son, and shall call His name Immanuel.<br />And this is fulfilled in Matthew 1: <br />22 So all this was done that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the Lord through the prophet, saying: <br />23 “Behold, the virgin shall be with child, and bear a Son, and they shall call His name Immanuel,” which is translated, “God with us.”<br /><br /><br />Just before this it said in Matthew 1:<br />20 Behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to him (Joseph) in a dream, saying, “Joseph, son of David, do not be afraid to take to you Mary your wife, for that which is conceived in her is of the Holy Spirit. <br />21 And she will bring forth a Son, and you shall call His name Jesus, for He will save His people from their sins.” <br />--- And it says in Luke 1:<br />35 And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be CALLED the Son of God.<br /><br />God is God --- Jesus is the Savior. <br />As it says in John 3:<br />14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up, <br /><br />--- (You may not understand this, but you can study it later. ---The Israelites had sinned and turned away from God, and God sent fiery serpents among them to weed out the unfaithful ones. <br />--- This was a ‘test of Faith,’ written in Numbers 21:<br />6 So the Lord sent fiery serpents among the people, and they bit the people; and many of the people of Israel died.<br />7 Therefore the people came to Moses, and said, “We have sinned, for we have spoken against the Lord and against you; pray to the Lord that He take away the serpents from us.” So Moses prayed for the people.<br />8. Then the Lord said to Moses, “Make a fiery serpent, and set it on a pole; and it shall be that everyone who is bitten, when he looks at it, shall live.” <br />9 So Moses made a bronze serpent, and put it on a pole; and so it was, if a serpent had bitten anyone, when he looked at the bronze serpent, he lived.)<br /><br />--- Note that many died, but those who turned their Faith to God, repented and asked Moses again to help them. --- God gave them this ‘test of Faith and obedience,’ --- to ‘look,’ or put Faith in God’s provision. --- This serpent on the pole was a symbol of the Son of Man, --- Jesus, --- being lifted up on the cross, --- and those who “Look on Him in Faith and obedience,” can be saved.  <br /><br />--- (This is another little side note but often on signs on Pharmacies or Drug Stores, they have the symbol of a ‘serpent on a pole.’ --- And that comes from this Scripture in Numbers 21.)  <br /><br />--- To continue from 14 “Even so must the Son of Man be lifted up (on a cross), <br />15 that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have eternal life. <br />16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten (Unique) Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. <br />17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved.<br />--- So it is 'through' Jesus that we are saved, this is the core of the Gospel Message. <br /><br /> <br />Placid<br /><br />]]>
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   <pubDate>Fri, 14 Dec 2012 13:20:38 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? : In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent,...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24200&amp;PID=171451#171451</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=53418">islamispeace</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 14 December 2012 at 1:11pm<br /><br />In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Placid</strong></em><br /><br />Thank you for going over my post so that we can see the things you don’t understand about Christians, --- (though you moved part of one meaningful sentence, as you can see, near the beginning). --- I had written it as follows:<br>“In studying the NT, I realized that faith and knowledge were just the beginning. To really know God’s will for my life, I needed to surrender my will completely to God and take Jesus as my Lord, as well as my Savior.<br>--- To take Him as our Lord means that we become obedient to His teaching,”</div><br><br>This is shirk from Islam's point of view.&nbsp; By taking Jesus as your "lord and savior", you are committing a grave sin, because only God is "Lord and Savior".&nbsp; <br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Placid</strong></em><br /><br />Response: --- No, you are not crazy, just unaware of what Christians believe, --- yet you present yourself as though you do. (Perhaps the ‘flip side’ of being crazy, is suggesting that if you are not crazy, then we Christians are.)<br>Many Baptists will tell you they believe that Jesus is God, but that comes from a church doctrine of trinity (that is rarely discussed in Churches, but consistently on Muslim websites), which is not quite Scriptural. --- However, our salvation does not depend on our doctrinal understanding, but on our Faith in God and our obedience to Jesus Christ as our Savior and Lord.</div><br><br>I know many Christians who would disagree with you.&nbsp; If I were to have approached these Christians with what you stated above as being the true Christian understanding, they would say that I don't understand Christianity, the same as you!&nbsp; So, who is right?&nbsp; The plain truth is that the vast majority of Christians worship Jesus as "God".&nbsp; And they regard anyone who does not consider Jesus to be "God" to be outside the fold of Christianity.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Placid</strong></em><br /><br />--- In the Quran, Jesus is called the Messiah some 8 times and if you look at the name given Him, you might understand, --- Jesus means Savior, --- and Christ means Messiah, so we believe in Jesus, the Christ, whom God has sent.</div>&nbsp; <br><br>Actually, the name "Jesus" is the Greek form of the Hebrew Yehoshuah, which means "God saves" or "Yahweh saves".&nbsp; It does not mean "savior".&nbsp; As I said, only God is "Savior" and that is what Jesus' name implies as well.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Placid</strong></em><br /><br />--- The confusion comes from the fact that The Word (Logos), ‘that was with God in the beginning,’ (John 1:1), --- came from heaven and indwelt the fleshly body of Jesus who was born of Mary, on earth. --- Jesus was God’s Manifestation on earth. (He said, “I and My Father are one.”) --- He had a human body, and a Divine Soul and Spirit, did He not? --- He could say as a human, I am hungry, I am thirsty, I am tired,” --- and as the Word (Logos) of God, --- He could say, “Before Abraham was, I AM.”<br>And He could also speak to God through Jesus, as in the prayer of Jesus in John 17:<br>3 “And this is Eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.”</div><br><br>It seems the confusion is the fault of Christian doctrine itself.&nbsp; Even your statements above show the contradictory nature of Christian doctrine.&nbsp; You say that Jesus is not God yet then you say that "Jesus was God's Manifestation on earth".&nbsp; You also say that he had "a Divine Soul and Spirit".&nbsp; How can a human have a "divine soul"?&nbsp; <br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Placid</strong></em><br /><br />45. (And remember) when the angels said, “O Mary, God gives you glad tidings of a ‘Word’ from Him whose name is the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, illustrious in the world and the Hereafter and one of those brought near unto God.<br>46. He will speak unto mankind from his cradle and in his manhood and he is of the righteous.”<br>47. She said, “My Lord, how can I have a child when no mortal has touched me?” <br>He said, ”So it will be, God creates what He will. If He decrees a thing, He says unto it only ‘Be!’ and it is.</div><br><br>Yes, and this is the same "word" through which God created Adam (pbuh) as well:<br><br><font color="#336600">"The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: "Be". And he was." (3:59)</font><br><br>All mankind was created the same way.&nbsp; That includes Jesus (pbuh) as well.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Placid</strong></em><br /><br />-- While it is not ‘befitting’ --- and ‘out of the ordinary,’ and seemingly ‘below the Dignity of God’ that He should have one who is CALLED His son, --- but "If He decrees it," --- He says unto it only ‘Be!’ and it is.</div><br><br>It is below the Dignity of God, whether you say that Jesus was simply "called" God's "son" or as other Christians believe, he was "literally" God's "son", it is no different than what the Arab pagans believed about God.&nbsp; The only difference was that they believed that He had daughters!<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Placid</strong></em><br /><br />This comes from the original announcement in Luke 1, where the same angel Gabriel came to the same Virgin Mary and gave the same announcement some 600 years before it was revealed by the same Gabriel to Muhammad --- And this is the same angel Gabriel that ‘confirms‘ it to be true in Surah 3:3.<br>--- We could say, “He said it, he did it, and he confirmed it.”</div><br><br>There is a HUGE difference between the two.&nbsp; Luke claims that Mary (as) was given glad tidings of a son who would be "God's son" as well.&nbsp; The Quran makes no such statement, as you showed above.&nbsp; Mary (as) was simply given glad tidings of a son who would be God's prophet.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Placid</strong></em><br /><br />--- But Gabriel was only a Messenger of God. --- He is not the Holy Spirit, or it would be said that Jesus was the son of Gabriel. --- However, here is what it says in Luke 1:<br>34 Then Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I do not know a man?”<br>35 And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be CALLED the Son of God. </div><br><br>That is your belief, not the belief of Muslims.&nbsp; To us, the "Holy Spirit" is a created being, Gabriel (as).&nbsp; It is irrelevant what Luke stated.&nbsp; Muslims don't follow the Gospels for precisely this reason.&nbsp; The Quran clearly states that Gabriel (as) is the Holy Spirit:<br><br><font color="#336600">"Say, the holy spirit has brought the revelation from thy Lord in Truth, in order to strengthen those who believe, and as a Guide and Glad Tidings to Muslims." (16:102)</font><br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Placid</strong></em><br /><br />--- You see, this is why I was fascinated in reading the Quran, because it says the same as the Gospel, which Gabriel ‘confirms’ as true.</div><br><br>I disagree. The Quran may share some similarities with the "Gospels" but it differs in many places.&nbsp; Some examples have already been provided by both you and I.&nbsp; The verses you referred to, ironically, show the great differences between the Quran and the Gospels.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Placid</strong></em><br /><br />Now if you believe the Quran, as you say you do, --- you have to believe this, do you not?<br>--- (Or should I ask if I am crazy for believing these things in both the Bible and the Quran?)</div>&nbsp; <br><br>I think you are wrong, not crazy.&nbsp; The Quran does not tell Muslims that they have to believe the "Gospels".&nbsp; It does not say to Muslims to believe in the "Gospel of Luke" or the "Gospel of Matthew".&nbsp; It tells Muslims that the Quran is the final word and that is what they should believe.&nbsp; <br>]]>
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   <pubDate>Fri, 14 Dec 2012 13:11:36 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? : In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent,...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=53418">islamispeace</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 14 December 2012 at 12:43pm<br /><br />In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />Greetings islamispeace,<br><br>You didn't answer my questions...<br><blockquote>"Does Islam teach about sin?&nbsp; Aren't God's laws meant to keep us from sinning?&nbsp; Isn't that the main purpose of the scriptures, and if they help us to do that, then there is the wisdom contained in them, correct?"<br></blockquote>Does Islam teach about sin?<br>and<br>Can you see then how, <b>'all scripture is useful for instruction'</b>?<br><br>Thanks and Salaam,<br>CH</div><br><br>Of course, Islam teaches about sin.&nbsp; But the difference between Christians and Muslims is that Muslims do not pay lip service to God's laws while not actually following them or enforcing them.&nbsp; This is what Christians like you do with the Tanakh.&nbsp; You pay lip service to it but you do not actually follow it.<br>]]>
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   <pubDate>Fri, 14 Dec 2012 12:43:24 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? :  In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent,...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24200&amp;PID=171428#171428</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=53418">islamispeace</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 13 December 2012 at 7:29pm<br /><br />In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Bunter</strong></em><br /><br />You insult again here - this is supposed to be about reasonable discussion but although you continually ask others to answer questions, YOU run away from them by deciding they are 'laughable' or 'ridiculous'. The whole point of discussion begins when we have adequately defined what we are talking about - in this case God.</div><br><br><img src="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif" border="0" align="absmiddle" alt="LOL" /> Well, I guess that answers my question!&nbsp; You really are so thin-skinned that you get "insulted" so quickly and easily.&nbsp; <br><br>I answered your question, dude.&nbsp; If you are too dense to understand, that is not my problem.&nbsp; Childish finger pointing does not help your case.&nbsp; Oh, sorry.&nbsp; Did you get insulted? <br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Bunter</strong></em><br /><br />God is not exonerated because he is God, he has a character that tells us how he acts unless for you he just acts on a whim? in this case I would say that God is loving and just - in fact this is central to Christianity and we see it most clearly in the death of Jesus on the cross. Loving in that jesus died for our sins and just in that he suffered for what others had done to satisfy his own holiness.</div><br><br>So God is "loving and just" yet He ordered the killings of infants.&nbsp; Right...<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Bunter</strong></em><br /><br />I will deal with the verse you quoted in another post but there is something wrong with your sense of right and wrong if you consider a comparison between external intense suffering and killing babies as 'ridiculous.' Let me ask you, would you prefer to be killed as a baby or suffer the most vicious suffering for eternity?</div><br><br>The difference is that one is innocent and yet was killed in the most brutal way while the other is guilty and deserving of punishment.&nbsp; One was killed for no reason while the other had every chance to turn things around but didn't.&nbsp; What kind of twisted mind does not see the difference?<br><br>To answer your question, I would rather not be murdered as a baby, but rather be given the chance at life.&nbsp; Alhamdulillah, I have been given a chance at life.&nbsp; I am 29 years old.&nbsp; God only knows how long I will live.&nbsp; But at least I was not brutally murdered by a marauding soldier allegedly doing "God's work".&nbsp; <br><br>Incidentally, are you pro-life or pro-choice?&nbsp; <br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Bunter</strong></em><br /><br />What in these posts are you trying to demonstrate or prove - that Islam and therefore its God is superior to that of Jews and Christians? No orthodox Christian or Jew would deny there is punishment for those who reject God and that in the Bible, whether we like it or not is the Bible is the whole revelation of God and we cannot pick and choose which bits we regard as acceptable.</div> &nbsp; <br><br>Quite the contrary, Bunter!&nbsp; I am not trying to demonstrate "my God" is better than "your God".&nbsp; If you weren't so ignorant about Islam, you would know that I worship the God of Abraham (pbuh), as you do.&nbsp; What I am trying to prove is that the Bible cannot be God's Word.&nbsp; This thread is one of the proofs of this claim.&nbsp; The Bible contains alleged commands by God that called for merciless destruction and baby-killing.&nbsp; What kind of God-fearing person would actually believe that God would order such monstrous behavior?&nbsp; This is the same God who said "thou shalt not kill".&nbsp; The same God who said in the Quran that if anyone killed a person unjustly, it would be as if he had killed all of mankind (5:32). &nbsp; <br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Bunter</strong></em><br /><br />here you go again, everyone who debates with you gets the same response: laughable, ridiculous, excuses but you never say much more that this, you cannot face up to truth can you? Do you not see how lame your answers are - first its about God decides and suddenly its common sense - so explain why having up to 4 wives and concubines is 'common sense'?</div><br><br><img src="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif" border="0" align="absmiddle" alt="LOL" /> Oh, grow up will ya?&nbsp; You people are so touchy!&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; <br><br>Did God give you common sense?&nbsp; Don't you just know that certain things are right or wrong?&nbsp; Or like some of the other people on this forum, was common sense missing when God created you?&nbsp; Oh, sorry.&nbsp; You must have been insulted again!<br><br>Regarding having 4 wives and concubines, the common sense is in the fact that there are more women then men in the world.&nbsp; Always have, and probably always will.&nbsp; So, it makes sense to allow men to marry up to 4 wives.&nbsp; Moreover, the Quran commands (and this you would have known if you had actually <i><b>read </b></i>it):<br><br><font color="#336600">"If ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly with the orphans, marry women of your choice, Two or three or four;<u><b> but if ye fear that ye shall not be able to deal justly (with them), <font size="3"><i>then only one</i></font></b></u>, or (a captive) that your right hands possess, that will be more suitable, to prevent you from doing injustice." (An-Nisa, 4:3)</font><br><br>So, the permission to marry up to 4 wives is incumbent upon treating them all equally.&nbsp; If the man finds that impossible, then he is only allowed one wife.&nbsp; See?&nbsp; Common sense!<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Bunter</strong></em><br /><br />Im glad we have some commonality over charity but does it for Islam issue out of love and does it extend to loving your enemies? </div>&nbsp; <br><br>It extends out of love for God.&nbsp; God wants us to give in charity.&nbsp; That is enough for us.&nbsp; Yes, helping our enemies and being kind to them is also recommended.&nbsp; A perfect example of that is in how the prophet Muhammad (pbuh) pardoned the Jewish woman who served him a poisoned lamb or how he exonerated the people of Mecca (those who had persecuted him and his followers for close to 20 years) when he conquered the city in a blood-less battle.&nbsp; Even when he fought against his enemies, he generally showed them mercy...unlike the Israelites who were told to kill everyone off (babies included).&nbsp; <br><span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by islamispeace - 13 December 2012 at 7:37pm</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Thu, 13 Dec 2012 19:29:17 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? : Hi Islam,Thank you for going...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71448">Placid</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 13 December 2012 at 7:48am<br /><br />Hi Islam,<br /><br />Thank you for going over my post so that we can see the things you don’t understand about Christians, --- (though you moved part of one meaningful sentence, as you can see, near the beginning). --- I had written it as follows:<br />“In studying the NT, I realized that faith and knowledge were just the beginning. To really know God’s will for my life, I needed to surrender my will completely to God and take Jesus as my Lord, as well as my Savior.<br />--- To take Him as our Lord means that we become obedient to His teaching,”<br /><br />Quote: Okay, now you have lost me.  You say you don't believe that Jesus is God, yet you say that you became a "Christian" in a Baptist Church.  Am I crazy or don't Baptists believe that Jesus is God?  <br /><br />Response: --- No, you are not crazy, just unaware of what Christians believe, --- yet you present yourself as though you do. (Perhaps the ‘flip side’ of being crazy, is suggesting that if you are not crazy, then we Christians are.)<br />Many Baptists will tell you they believe that Jesus is God, but that comes from a church doctrine of trinity (that is rarely discussed in Churches, but consistently on Muslim websites), which is not quite Scriptural. --- However, our salvation does not depend on our doctrinal understanding, but on our Faith in God and our obedience to Jesus Christ as our Savior and Lord. <br />--- In the Quran, Jesus is called the Messiah some 8 times and if you look at the name given Him, you might understand, --- Jesus means Savior, --- and Christ means Messiah, so we believe in Jesus, the Christ, whom God has sent. <br /><br />--- The confusion comes from the fact that The Word (Logos), ‘that was with God in the beginning,’ (John 1:1), --- came from heaven and indwelt the fleshly body of Jesus who was born of Mary, on earth. --- Jesus was God’s Manifestation on earth. (He said, “I and My Father are one.”) --- He had a human body, and a Divine Soul and Spirit, did He not? --- He could say as a human, I am hungry, I am thirsty, I am tired,” --- and as the Word (Logos) of God, --- He could say, “Before Abraham was, I AM.”<br />And He could also speak to God through Jesus, as in the prayer of Jesus in John 17:<br />3 “And this is Eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent.” <br /><br />--- And here is what it says about the Word (Logos) in Surah 3:<br />45. (And remember) when the angels said, “O Mary, God gives you glad tidings of a ‘Word’ from Him whose name is the Messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, illustrious in the world and the Hereafter and one of those brought near unto God.<br />46. He will speak unto mankind from his cradle and in his manhood and he is of the righteous.”<br />47. She said, “My Lord, how can I have a child when no mortal has touched me?” <br />He said, ”So it will be, God creates what He will. If He decrees a thing, He says unto it only ‘Be!’ and it is. <br /><br />And again it says in Surah 19:<br />21.  He (the angel) said, “So it will be, Your Lord says,’It is easy for Me, and it will be that We will make him a revelation (Sign) for mankind and a mercy from Us, and it is a thing ordained.’”<br />34. Such was Jesus, son of Mary, this is a statement of the truth concerning which they doubt.<br />35. It is not befitting for the (Majesty of God) that He should take unto Himself a son. Glory be to Him. When He decrees a thing He says unto it only ‘Be!’ and it is. <br /><br />--- While it is not ‘befitting’ --- and ‘out of the ordinary,’ and seemingly ‘below the Dignity of God’ that He should have one who is CALLED His son, --- but "If He decrees it," --- He says unto it only ‘Be!’ and it is.<br /><br />This comes from the original announcement in Luke 1, where the same angel Gabriel came to the same Virgin Mary and gave the same announcement some 600 years before it was revealed by the same Gabriel to Muhammad --- And this is the same angel Gabriel that ‘confirms‘ it to be true in Surah 3:3.<br />--- We could say, “He said it, he did it, and he confirmed it.” <br /><br />--- But Gabriel was only a Messenger of God. --- He is not the Holy Spirit, or it would be said that Jesus was the son of Gabriel. --- However, here is what it says in Luke 1:<br />34 Then Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I do not know a man?”<br />35 And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be CALLED the Son of God. <br /><br />--- You see, this is why I was fascinated in reading the Quran, because it says the same as the Gospel, which Gabriel ‘confirms’ as true.<br /><br />Now if you believe the Quran, as you say you do, --- you have to believe this, do you not?<br />--- (Or should I ask if I am crazy for believing these things in both the Bible and the Quran?)<br /><br /><br /><br />Placid<br /><br />]]>
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   <pubDate>Thu, 13 Dec 2012 07:48:21 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? :  Greetings islamispeace,You didn&amp;#039;t...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=69566">Caringheart</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 12 December 2012 at 8:56pm<br /><br />Greetings islamispeace,<br><br>You didn't answer my questions...<br><blockquote>"Does Islam teach about sin?&nbsp; Aren't God's laws meant to keep us from sinning?&nbsp; Isn't that the main purpose of the scriptures, and if they help us to do that, then there is the wisdom contained in them, correct?"<br></blockquote>Does Islam teach about sin?<br>and<br>Can you see then how, <b>'all scripture is useful for instruction'</b>?<br><br>Thanks and Salaam,<br>CH<span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by Caringheart - 12 December 2012 at 8:57pm</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Wed, 12 Dec 2012 20:56:50 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? :  Originally posted by Mahdi The...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=66457">bunter</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 12 December 2012 at 8:39am<br /><br /> <div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke</strong></em><br /><br /><font color=red>1 Samuel 15 King James Version (KJV) Samuel also said unto Saul, The LORD sent me to anoint thee to be king over his people, over Israel: now therefore hearken thou unto the voice of the words of the LORD. 2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. 3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, <em><u><strong>infant and suckling</strong></u></em> ox and sheep, camel and ass.</font></div> <br /><br />I assume you have not read the section because you do not quote the verse number so at this stage it looks like you do not know the context and we must know that to have any real hope of an interpretation. in fact it is verses 1-3]]>
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   <pubDate>Wed, 12 Dec 2012 08:39:29 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? :  Originally posted by islamispeaceWhy...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=66457">bunter</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 12 December 2012 at 8:19am<br /><br /> <div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by islamispeace</strong></em><br /><br />Why don't you try to answer the question?  How am I "denigrating" or "insulting" you by labeling the killing of babies as "evil"?  Are you that thin-skinned that you get "insulted" so easily? </div><br />You insult again here - this is supposed to be about reasonable discussion but although you continually ask others to answer questions, YOU run away from them by deciding they are 'laughable' or 'ridiculous'. The whole point of discussion begins when we have adequately defined what we are talking about - in this case God.<br /><br />God is not exonerated because he is God, he has a character that tells us how he acts unless for you he just acts on a whim? in this case I would say that God is loving and just - in fact this is central to Christianity and we see it most clearly in the death of Jesus on the cross. Loving in that jesus died for our sins and just in that he suffered for what others had done to satisfy his own holiness.<br /><br />I will deal with the verse you quoted in another post but there is something wrong with your sense of right and wrong if you consider a comparison between external intense suffering and killing babies as 'ridiculous.' Let me ask you, would you prefer to be killed as a baby or suffer the most vicious suffering for eternity?<br /><br />What in these posts are you trying to demonstrate or prove - that Islam and therefore its God is superior to that of Jews and Christians? No orthodox Christian or Jew would deny there is punishment for those who reject God and that in the Bible, whether we like it or not is the Bible is the whole revelation of God and we cannot pick and choose which bits we regard as acceptable.<br /><br />here you go again, everyone who debates with you gets the same response: laughable, ridiculous, excuses but you never say much more that this, you cannot face up to truth can you? Do you not see how lame your answers are - first its about God decides and suddenly its common sense - so explain why having up to 4 wives and concubines is 'common sense'?<br /><br />Im glad we have some commonality over charity but does it for Islam issue out of love and does it extend to loving your enemies? ]]>
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   <pubDate>Wed, 12 Dec 2012 08:19:39 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? : Greetings islamispeace,First let...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=69566">Caringheart</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 11 December 2012 at 8:57pm<br /><br />Greetings islamispeace,<br><br>First let me say I find your conversation with Placid helpful.<br><br>Just curious though, and I must ask you to think about this... Will you still think it is evil if it is Islam(or the muslims, rather than the Israelites) that does this to people in the name of ridding the world of those who do not believe in Muhammad?&nbsp; Do you think those intent on ridding the world of 'unbelievers' today is any different that the Israelites ridding the territory of the 'pagans' in their day?&nbsp; Do you think the muslims will stop at killing babies when they see the world as dar al Islam and dar al Harb?&nbsp; Will you have just as much of a problem with this issue in that scenario?&nbsp; Because I think this is really the crux of the matter that needs to be addressed.&nbsp; Will it be acceptable to repeat this behavior or should we have evolved?&nbsp; Will you condemn it just as strongly in a new scenario?<br>I condemn it because I follow a new covenant of God, one that would not order killing.&nbsp; I can not speak on the matter of the old testament and whether people did as God truly ordered, or if they did as they pleased.&nbsp; I can say that the new covenant takes us to a higher level of intelligence, understanding, and evolution.&nbsp; If the quran supports this new covenant then I have no problem with the people of the quran.<br><br>As long as your main purpose is to attack the beliefs of good people rather than being able to separate that there are good and evil in all groups of people, and seeking the common good, you serve the devils purpose of constant aggression, rather than seeking peace.&nbsp; I am seeking to find the good in the people of Islam, to assure myself that their beliefs are not beliefs that will cause constant chaos and fighting in the world.&nbsp; To assure myself that when evil reveals itself they will have the insight to turn from it, much as so many Germans and Polish did in saving their Jewish neighbors and friends from an evil when that evil became clear.<br><br>Salaam and thanks for your consideration,<br>CH<br>]]>
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   <pubDate>Tue, 11 Dec 2012 20:57:19 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? :  In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent,...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24200&amp;PID=171385#171385</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=53418">islamispeace</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 11 December 2012 at 7:56pm<br /><br />In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Placid</strong></em><br /><br />Response: --- What am I? --- I became a Christian, --- that means I accepted Jesus as my Savior many years ago, in a Baptist Church, for which I thank God, and the caring people that witnessed to me about the Love of God and His provision for salvation through Jesus Christ.</div><br><br>Okay, now you have lost me.&nbsp; You say you don't believe that Jesus is God, yet you say that you became a "Christian" in a Baptist Church.&nbsp; Am I crazy or don't Baptists believe that Jesus is God?&nbsp; <br><br>Also, how can you claim Jesus as your "savior" if you don't believe he is God?&nbsp; Isn't God the only Savior?<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Placid</strong></em><br /><br />-- Now since you ask I will speak freely of what Christians believe, --- and it is through Faith in God, and an awareness of His presence with us, that gives the assurance of Eternal life, (which is also verified to Christians in the Quran, Surah 3:55).<br>However, I began to read and study the Bible and I learned about the faith of Abraham, our Patriarch. --- Then the many other Prophets and teachers.<br>In studying the NT, I realized that faith and knowledge were just the beginning. To really know God’s will for my life, I needed to surrender my <br>--- To take Him as our Lord means that we become obedient to His teaching, which comes from ‘the Sermon on the Mount,’ Matthew 5, 6, and 7, --- and the two commandments to “Love God with all your heart,” --- And ‘love your neighbor as yourself’. --- A single verse that expresses this instruction is John 5:<br>24  “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him (God) who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.<br>--- “He who HEARS My word. --- The word ‘HEAR’ has the deeper meaning of --- ‘understanding and obeying’ Jesus’ teaching.<br>In dedicating myself to follow Jesus as He said to His disciples and Apostles, “Follow Me,” --- so I have done that.will completely to God and take Jesus as my Lord, as well as my Savior.</div><br><br>The teachings Jesus (pbuh) brought were not his, but God's.&nbsp; Therefore, Jesus should not be taken as your "Lord", but only God.&nbsp; Taking a man as you "Lord" is a violation of the 1st Commandment.&nbsp; <br><br>Let me give you an example.&nbsp; I follow the teachings of Muhammad (pbuh), but I would never call him my "Lord".&nbsp; That would be shirk, the worst possible sin.&nbsp; I have only one Lord and Savior, and that is the Lord of the Worlds, Allah (swt).&nbsp; <br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Placid</strong></em><br /><br />--- It is really like your signature verse:<br>--- Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for God, the Cherisher of the Worlds.” (Surat al-Anaam: 162).<br>--- That is true dedication, so do you have the assurance of eternal life, as the Scriptures say we can have? --- (I’m not inviting you to be like me, --- but how are you in your present level of faith in God?) --- Can you agree with what I say next?</div><br><br>Anyone can give you "assurance".&nbsp; That doesn't mean it is true.&nbsp; Just because your scripture tells you that you are "saved" doesn't make it so.<br><br>To answer your question, I am fully secure in my faith.&nbsp; The Quran and Sunnah promise salvation for those who believe that "there is no god but Allah and that Muhammad is messenger."&nbsp; This declaration of faith will be the saving grace for all who sincerely believe it.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Placid</strong></em><br /><br />I would like to make a comparison --- to becoming a true Muslim.<br>I understand that Islam means ‘Surrender,’ or ‘Submission,’ according to Surah 5:<br>3 This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favor upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion.<br>--- (This seems to have been ‘imbedded’ in this verse later, because it does not suit the context, and it seems that it was revealed to Muhammad in year 10 of the Hijrah, after the victory had been won over idolatry, --- shortly before his death.)<br>--- And this referred to the Faith of Abraham, as in Surah 2:<br>132 The same did Abraham enjoin upon his sons, and also Jacob, (saying): O my sons! Lo! Allah hath chosen for you the (true) religion; therefore die not save as men who have surrendered (unto Him).<br>Yusuf Ali: 132 And this was the legacy that Abraham left to his sons, and so did Jacob; "Oh my sons! God hath chosen the Faith for you; then die not except in the Faith of Islam."<br>--- (So to follow the Faith of Abraham makes one a ‘believer’ --- and you don’t need labels, because that tries to ‘categorize’ you, --- The word “Christian’ really means ‘Christ’s one.’</div>&nbsp; <br><br>But by taking Jesus and your "lord and savior", you are not believing in God but in Jesus.&nbsp; All the prophets taught submission to God alone, not to anyone else.&nbsp; Jesus (pbuh) himself taught as much.&nbsp; To follow the Faith of Abraham requires the acknowledgement of God alone and other elements of faith such as belief in all the prophets, angels, the unaltered books, the Day of Judgment etc.&nbsp; <br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Placid</strong></em><br /><br />-- I became fascinated by the Quran, because it gives the same pattern of conversion that the Gospel does.<br>The first point is to Believe in God as Sovereign and Almighty. Then to believe in His word, as it says in Surah 4:<br>162 But those among them who are well-grounded in knowledge, and the believers, believe in what hath been revealed to thee and what was revealed before thee: And (especially) those who establish regular prayer and practise regular charity and believe in God and in the Last Day: To them shall We soon give a great reward.<br>163 We have sent thee inspiration, as We sent it to Noah and the Apostles after him: we sent inspiration to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob and the Tribes, to Jesus, Job, Jonah, Aaron, and Solomon, and to David We gave the Psalms.<br>164&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Of some apostles We have already told thee the story; of others We have not; - and to Moses God spoke direct; -<br>165 Apostles who gave good news as well as warning, that mankind, after (the coming) of the apostles, should have no plea against God: For God is Exalted in Power, Wise.<br>166 But God beareth witness that what He hath sent unto thee He hath sent from His (own) knowledge, and the angels bear witness: But enough is God for a witness.<br>167 Those who reject Faith and keep off (men) from the way of God, have verily strayed far, far away from the Path.<br>--- (So, --- to know God’s will for our lives, we have to believe these words that speak of the inspiration of the Prophets, and receive this same ‘inspiration ‘ by the Holy Spirit, before we are in this realm of Faith as a believer.</div><br><br>You are mixing Christian elements with Islamic ones.&nbsp; The "Holy Spirit" is the Angel Gabriel (as), not an attribute of God.&nbsp; Also, do you accept all the prophets mentioned in the Quran, including Muhammad (pbuh)?&nbsp; <br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Placid</strong></em><br /><br />--- So I am a believer and ‘follower’ of Jesus like the Apostles were (and by God’s grace, will continue to be surrendered unto Him).<br>--- And finally, this last verse that follows gives the assurance:<br>3:55&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Behold! God said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection:</div><br><br>But the disciples did not say that Jesus was their "lord and savior".&nbsp; In fact, Jesus (pbuh) said:<br><br><font color="#333300">""'It is Allah Who is my Lord and your Lord; then worship Him. This is a Way that is straight.'"" (3:51)</font><br><br>Only when you acknowledge Allah (swt) as the One God and Jesus (pbuh) as a righteous prophet and not your "lord and savior" and also acknowledge Muhammad (pbuh) as the prophet of God, will you be in the "Faith of Abraham", as the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) taught:<br><font color="#333300"><br>"Narrated Abu Burda's father: Allah's Apostle said "Three persons will have a double reward: 1. A Person from the people of the scriptures who believed in his prophet (Jesus or Moses) and then believed in the prophet Muhammad (i .e. has embraced Islam). 2. A slave who discharges his duties to Allah and his master. 3. A master of a woman-slave who teaches her good manners and educates her in the best possible way (the religion) and manumits her and then marries her."" (Sahih Bukhari, 3:97)</font><br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Placid</strong></em><br /><br />Sorry, it is a little long, but you were asking. --- Would you also like to relate your testimony so that we might know your experience of Faith as well?)</div><br><br>Besides what I have already stated, what else would you like to know?<br><span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by islamispeace - 11 December 2012 at 7:57pm</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Tue, 11 Dec 2012 19:56:24 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? : In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent,...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24200&amp;PID=171384#171384</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=53418">islamispeace</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 11 December 2012 at 7:25pm<br /><br />In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Salaam Erin</strong></em><br /><br />Islamispeace, according to the Qur'an the human race were wiped out except for Noah and his family.&nbsp; Therefore Allah kills babies too- this is the same story that is in the Bible.</div><br><br>Not that this is in any way related to God commanding the Israelites to kill babies during a war, but:<br><br>1.&nbsp; There is actually no evidence in the Quran that the whole earth was destroyed in the flood, and,<br><br>2.&nbsp; As I explained to Placid, there is a difference between God destroying sinful nations and God ordering human armies to destroy entire nations, including killing the babies.<br><br>God carries out His judgment on whomsoever He wills.&nbsp; Humans have not been given the authority to condemn entire nations because that is God's right only.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Salaam Erin</strong></em><br /><br />It was judgement, not genocide- you are ignoring the fact that Rhab and her family and the Gibeonites were spared, ignoring the large amounts of Canaanites exiled in Egypt who came with the Israelites, that it was a war of liberation against quisling kings and their supporters in a part of the Egyptian Empire, that the Israelites only destroyed three cities, they never went through with the campaign, they were not warring against the Canaanites outside of Canaan, God upon seeing the lack of following through of Joshua's disabling operations (not acts of genocide), withdrew His support and let them mix to test them, including letting the bronze age weaponry of the Israelites not overcome the iron age weapons of their enemies.</div>&nbsp; <br><br>Wow.&nbsp; It was not genocide but "judgment".&nbsp; Right.&nbsp; So, this "judgment" apparently involved, for some reason, "utterly destroying" the target nation, including the killing of children and infants (i.e. genocide).&nbsp; What kind of "judgment" is that?<br><br>Regarding your ridiculous excuse that the killings are somehow off-set by the fact that Rahab and her family were spared, you neglect to mention the reason:<br><br><font color="#0000FF">"<span id="en-NIV-5971" ="text Josh-6-21"><u><b>They devoted the city to the <span style="font-variant: small-caps" ="small-caps">Lord</span> and destroyed with the sword every living thing in it—men and women, young and old, cattle, sheep and donkeys</b></u>.&nbsp; &#091;...&#093; </span><span id="en-NIV-5974" ="text Josh-6-24">Then they burned the whole city and everything in it, but they put the silver and gold and the articles of bronze and iron into the treasury of the <span style="font-variant: small-caps" ="small-caps">Lord</span>’s house.</span> <span id="en-NIV-5975" ="text Josh-6-25"><sup ="versenum">25<u><b>&nbsp;</b></u></sup><u><b>But Joshua spared Rahab the prostitute, with her family and all who belonged to her, because she hid the men Joshua had sent as spies to Jericho</b></u>—and she lives among the Israelites to this day.</span>" (Joshua 6: 21, 24-25)</font><br><br>So, the only reason she was spared was because she helped the Israelite spies.&nbsp; It was not because of the Israelites' compassion.&nbsp; Even if that was the case, you think that because Rahab and her family were spared, we can overlook the fact that the rest of the city was completely destroyed and every living thing along with it.&nbsp; <br><br>Regarding the Gibeonites, the only reason they were not slaughtered was because the Israelites had a treaty with them and it was considered a sin to violate one's treaty.&nbsp; Also, the whole reason the Gibeonites even tried to deceive the Israelites into forming the treaty was because they feared that what was done to the other nations would also be done to them:<br><br><font color="#0000FF">"</font><span id="en-NIV-6060" ="text Josh-9-22">Then Joshua summoned the Gibeonites and said, “Why did you deceive us by saying, ‘We live a long way from you,’ while actually you live near us?</span> <span id="en-NIV-6061" ="text Josh-9-23"><sup ="versenum">23&nbsp;</sup><u><b>You are now under a curse: You will never be released from service as woodcutters and water carriers for the house of my God</b></u>.”&nbsp; </span><font color="#0000FF"><span id="en-NIV-6062" ="text Josh-9-24">They answered Joshua, “Your servants were clearly told how the <span style="font-variant: small-caps" ="small-caps">Lord</span> your God had commanded his servant Moses to give you the whole land and to wipe out all its inhabitants from before you. <u><b>So we feared for our lives because of you, and that is why we did this</b></u>.</span> <span id="en-NIV-6063" ="text Josh-9-25"><sup ="versenum">25&nbsp;</sup>We are now in your hands. Do to us whatever seems good and right to you.”</span> </font><p><font color="#0000FF"><span id="en-NIV-6064" ="text Josh-9-26"><sup ="versenum">26&nbsp;</sup>So Joshua saved them from the Israelites, and they did not kill them.</span>" (Joshua 9:22-26)</font></p><p>How nice it was of Joshua to spare them to be the servants of the Israelites.&nbsp; The only reason was that he had a treaty with them, even though it was based on a deception that was designed to protect the Gibeonites from meeting the same grisly fate as the other nations. &nbsp;&nbsp; <br></p><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Salaam Erin</strong></em><br /><br />cts of genocide), withdrew His support and let them mix to test them, including letting the bronze age weaponry of the Israelites not overcome the iron age weapons of their enemies.&nbsp; This points to God, although giving the command of conquest and driving the Canaanites out (not genocide), really intended to let things go when the Israelites did not follow things throughm knowing it would test them and also prove to the world that our sin and failure is so complete that not even a human-run theocracy works.&nbsp; God also warned the Israelites He would do to them what He did to the Canaanites.&nbsp; This He did, in 721 BC, 587 BC and AD 70.&nbsp; And yet the Jews weren't wiped out.&nbsp; If the Canaanites were so wiped out, explain how Jesus spoke with a Canaanite woman 1200 years or so later.</div><br><br>This is a problem for you Christians to answer.&nbsp; Why?&nbsp; Because of what Deuteronomy 7 stated:<br><font color="#0000FF"><br>"<span ="text Deut-7-1">When the <span style="font-variant: small-caps" ="small-caps">Lord</span> your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you many nations—the Hittites, Girgashites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites, seven nations larger and stronger than you—</span> <span id="en-NIV-5114" ="text Deut-7-2"><sup ="versenum">2&nbsp;</sup>and <u><b>when the <span style="font-variant: small-caps" ="small-caps">Lord</span> your God has delivered them over to you and you have defeated them</b></u>,<u><b> then you must destroy them totally</b></u>.<a href="&quot;#fen-NIV-5114a&quot;" target="_blank">a</a>&#093;">&#091;<a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=deuter&#111;nomy%207&amp;versi&#111;n=NIV#fen-NIV-5114a" target="_blank">a</a>&#093;</sup> Make no treaty with them, and show them no mercy.</span>"</font><br><br>Apparently, God's promise was not fulfilled:<br><br><font color="#0000FF">"Judah could not dislodge the Jebusites, who were living in Jerusalem; to this day the Jebusites live there with the people of Judah." (Joshua 15:63</font>)<br><br>So, not only was God's promise not fulfilled, but it also explains why some of the target nations continued to survive despite the clear command to "destroy them totally".&nbsp; The only reason was that the Israelites failed to fulfill God's command.&nbsp; The Jebusites managed to survive not because of the Israelites' "compassion" but because they fought hard against them and managed to defeat them.<br><br>So, you ask a good question.&nbsp; Why did the target nations still survive when God allegedly promised that they would be defeated by the Israelites?&nbsp; Why indeed!&nbsp; That is a question for you to answer, not me.&nbsp; <br><br>The other point is that the nations that the Israelites managed to defeat were put to the sword and destroyed, allegedly.&nbsp; There was a definite attempt to wipe them off the fact of the earth.&nbsp; But just as any attempted genocide usually fails, so did the Israelites' attempted genocide ultimately fail.&nbsp; It was not because they were compassionate.&nbsp; They just failed to finish the job, just like the Nazis failed in their evil plot to exterminate the Jews or how the Hutu militias in Rwanda failed in their evil plot to exterminate the Tutsis or even how the Turks failed in their evil plot to exterminate the Armenians.&nbsp; Genocide is genocide, even if it ultimately failed.&nbsp; The attempt and the intention was there.&nbsp; <br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Salaam Erin</strong></em><br /><br />As for the death of babies, what about babies who die naturally?&nbsp; Don't you believe as a Muslim in predestination?&nbsp; Also, one other factor needs to be taken into consideration.&nbsp; God alone knows how a baby is going to turn out when he or she grows up.&nbsp; The only thing which could at all justify the death of a baby is if God knows that the survival of the human reace depends on it, considering His foreknowledge of how someone will turn out and what they will do.&nbsp; (Hitler was a baby.)</div><br><br>A natural death is different from being purposefully stabbed with a sword.&nbsp; <br>How screwed up can you be to not see the difference?&nbsp; <br><br>If the excuse you give for their killing was that God knew how they would turn out, then why didn't He just take their souls and let them die peacefully, instead of at the point of the sword of a marauding Israelite soldier?&nbsp; How much pain do you think they would have felt?&nbsp; <br><br>Yes, Hitler was a baby, and as a baby, he was innocent.&nbsp; It was only when he became a man and had an understanding of right and wrong did he become culpable for his actions.&nbsp; Hence, he became evil.&nbsp; Babies are not evil.&nbsp; <br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Salaam Erin</strong></em><br /><br />Also, unpopular as this is going to be, you believe that man was conceived and born sinless.&nbsp; We Christians do not.&nbsp; We were born in sin and shapen in iniquity.&nbsp; Paradoxically, God was acting in mercy.</div>&nbsp; <br><br>So being killed at the point of a sword was an "act of mercy"?&nbsp; I can't believe what I am reading!&nbsp; <img src="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/smileys/smiley3.gif" border="0" align="absmiddle" alt="Shocked" />&nbsp; Wouldn't it have been more merciful if God had just taken them peacefully, if it was that important for them die at all?&nbsp; <br><br>Why are they "born in sin"?&nbsp; How can you be held responsible for something that is out of your control?&nbsp; <br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Salaam Erin</strong></em><br /><br />Besides, as you read the Old Testament on, God is vindicated by His actions.&nbsp; The true Faith was only secured by God's ruthless treatment of the Jews in 587 BC, chastening the Jews and creating enough people of faith to jutify God coming amongst them as a Jew.&nbsp; Finally, given the ritual abuse of children, babies right from the beginning due to that abuse were already traumatised and corrupted.</div><br><br>"God is vindicated"?&nbsp; Was God on "trial"?&nbsp; Who are you to say that God needed "vindication"?&nbsp; It amazes me how far you guys will go to try to justify the senseless slaughter of infants.&nbsp; You make all sorts of excuses and then you blaspheme against God by saying that He was "vindicated" because He brought the same type of treatment on the Jews that He commanded them to do to others in the first place, all because of some discombobulated plan to eventually come down "amongst them as a Jew".&nbsp; So basically you are saying that all this bloodshed and pain had to occur so that God could eventually come down and die for our sins.&nbsp; That was the plan, right?&nbsp; <br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Salaam Erin</strong></em><br /><br />Also, I would advise you to read what is said in Genesis about the Nephilim, as well as Jude's letter in the New Testament.&nbsp; The 'sons of God' sinned and came down from Heaven and took the daughters of men, and had children, who were giants and conquerors.&nbsp; the 12 spies sent by Moses reported that the people in Canaan were giants and to them the spies were just grasshoppers.&nbsp; It seems that the people the Israelites were fighting weren't even fully human.&nbsp; And before you mock, remember you believe in jinn.&nbsp; ;o</div><br><br>Wow, another creative excuse for killing babies.&nbsp; They weren't even fully human!&nbsp; Funny, because that is exactly what Hitler said about the Jews...they weren't even humans!&nbsp; Nazi propaganda referred to Jews as "rats" <a href="http://library.thinkquest.org/C0111500/ww2/german/naziprop.htm" target="_blank">&#091;1&#093;</a>.&nbsp; To the Nazis, the Jews were essentially animals.&nbsp; That is how they justified their attempts at exterminating them.&nbsp; As Deepa Kumar of the "Post-Gazette" so eloquently stated in the aftermath of the recent shootings at a Sikh temple:<br><br><font color="#0000FF">"It's easier to kill people once you've dehumanized them" <a href="http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/opini&#111;n/perspectives/guilt-by-associati&#111;n-its-easier-to-kill-people-&#111;nce-youve-dehumanized-them-648009/" target="_blank">&#091;2&#093;</a>.&nbsp;</font> <br><br><font color="#0000FF"><font color="#000000">I truly hope that you think clearly on this issue.&nbsp; The things I am reading, all the excuse-making and twisted logic, is sickening.&nbsp; </font></font><br>]]>
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   <pubDate>Tue, 11 Dec 2012 19:25:36 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? : In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent,...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=53418">islamispeace</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 11 December 2012 at 5:52pm<br /><br />In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Bunter</strong></em><br /><br />It is a sad tactic of yours to denigrate or insult others? Do you think that a valid form of argument?</div><br><br>Why don't you try to answer the question?&nbsp; <br><br>How am I "denigrating" or "insulting" you by labeling the killing of babies as "evil"?&nbsp; Are you that thin-skinned that you get "insulted" so easily?&nbsp; <br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Bunter</strong></em><br /><br />There is no change of topic here but an attempt to ask you if the God of the OLd Testament is the same as the Allah of Islam? Hence. the question about Allah burning off skin and splashing water as hot as molten metal in peoples faces for eternity - so what is your answer?</div>&nbsp; <br><br><img src="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif" border="0" align="absmiddle" alt="LOL" /> This issue has already been dealt with.&nbsp; Comparing the killing of infants by the Israelites at God's alleged behest to God's punishment of sinners in Hell is a ridiculous comparison.&nbsp; One is done by humans.&nbsp; The other is done by God.&nbsp; Do you really think God would command believers to slaughter babies? &nbsp;&nbsp; <br><br>In addition, your attempt to compare "the God of the Old Testament" to "the Allah of Islam" because of the latter's punishment of sinners is laughable given that the "God of the New Testament" also punishes sinners in Hell!<br><font color="#0000FF"><br>"<span id="en-NIV-31062" ="text Rev-21-8">But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—they will be consigned to the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death.”</span>"&nbsp; (Revelation 21:8)</font><br><br>So, what's your point?<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Bunter</strong></em><br /><br />If we are talking about about the God of the Bible lets look at your item "God does not command evil" and I think I might agree with that but the question is who DECIDES what is evil? For example, Biblically the injunction is for one man and one wife so any God who commands anything different is commanding evil. Charity is indeed good but where does it originate - well the Bible in 1 Corinthians 13 tells us that it originates in or out of love - so love sees no race or creed and give to anyone in need - is this how you see it also?</div><br><br>This is the typical excuse I am getting from you guys.&nbsp; You ask "who decides what is evil".&nbsp; God does, of course.&nbsp; But you ask this question to protect yourself from answering the question whether the killing of babies in the Tanakh was evil.&nbsp; By refusing to answer the question and instead posing the question "who decides what is evil", you can excuse any type of evil or immoral behavior.&nbsp; Do you think rape is evil?&nbsp; How do you decide that?&nbsp; Aren't some things just common sense?&nbsp; Has not God given us common sense?&nbsp; <br><br>Regarding charity, it is to be given to all who need it, regardless of race or creed.&nbsp; The Quran commands charity:<br><br><font color="#333300">"It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces Towards east or West; but it is righteousness- to believe in Allah and the Last Day, and the Angels, and the Book, and the Messengers; to spend of your substance, out of love for Him, for your kin, for orphans, for the needy, for the wayfarer, for those who ask, and for the ransom of slaves; to be steadfast in prayer, and practice regular charity; to fulfil the contracts which ye have made; and to be firm and patient, in pain (or suffering) and adversity, and throughout all periods of panic. Such are the people of truth, the Allah-fearing." </font><span ="QuranSmall"><font color="#333300">(al-Baqarah, 2:177)</font><br></span><br>Let's get back to the killing of babies.&nbsp; It is obvious that all of you will refrain from labeling the Israelite massacres as evil.&nbsp; You cannot bring yourself around to admit that marauding soldiers spilling the blood of innocent children and babies is evil.&nbsp; That is both disturbing and sickening. <br>]]>
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   <pubDate>Tue, 11 Dec 2012 17:52:09 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? :  Islamispeace, according to the...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24200&amp;PID=171370#171370</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71439">Salaam_Erin</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 11 December 2012 at 9:05am<br /><br />Islamispeace, according to the Qur'an the human race were wiped out except for Noah and his family.&nbsp; Therefore Allah kills babies too- this is the same story that is in the Bible.&nbsp; <br><br><b>By the way, the genocide started with Moses (pbuh) and was continued by his successors, including Joshua.&nbsp; What was that you said about reading the Bible carefully to see what it actually says? &nbsp; </b><br><br>It was judgement, not genocide- you are ignoring the fact that Rhab and her family and the Gibeonites were spared, ignoring the large amounts of Canaanites exiled in Egypt who came with the Israelites, that it was a war of liberation against quisling kings and their supporters in a part of the Egyptian Empire, that the Israelites only destroyed three cities, they never went through with the campaign, they were not warring against the Canaanites outside of Canaan, God upon seeing the lack of following through of Joshua's disabling operations (not acts of genocide), withdrew His support and let them mix to test them, including letting the bronze age weaponry of the Israelites not overcome the iron age weapons of their enemies.&nbsp; This points to God, although giving the command of conquest and driving the Canaanites out (not genocide), really intended to let things go when the Israelites did not follow things throughm knowing it would test them and also prove to the world that our sin and failure is so complete that not even a human-run theocracy works.&nbsp; God also warned the Israelites He would do to them what He did to the Canaanites.&nbsp; This He did, in 721 BC, 587 BC and AD 70.&nbsp; And yet the Jews weren't wiped out.&nbsp; If the Canaanites were so wiped out, explain how Jesus spoke with a Canaanite woman 1200 years or so later.&nbsp; As for the death of babies, what about babies who die naturally?&nbsp; Don't you believe as a Muslim in predestination?&nbsp; Also, one other factor needs to be taken into consideration.&nbsp; God alone knows how a baby is going to turn out when he or she grows up.&nbsp; The only thing which could at all justify the death of a baby is if God knows that the survival of the human reace depends on it, considering His foreknowledge of how someone will turn out and what they will do.&nbsp; (Hitler was a baby.)&nbsp; Also, unpopular as this is going to be, you believe that man was conceived and born sinless.&nbsp; We Christians do not.&nbsp; We were born in sin and shapen in iniquity.&nbsp; Paradoxically, God was acting in mercy.&nbsp; Besides, as you read the Old Testament on, God is vindicated by His actions.&nbsp; The true Faith was only secured by God's ruthless treatment of the Jews in 587 BC, chastening the Jews and creating enough people of faith to jutify God coming amongst them as a Jew.&nbsp; Finally, given the ritual abuse of children, babies right from the beginning due to that abuse were already traumatised and corrupted.&nbsp; <br><br>Also, I would advise you to read what is said in Genesis about the Nephilim, as well as Jude's letter in the New Testament.&nbsp; The 'sons of God' sinned and came down from Heaven and took the daughters of men, and had children, who were giants and conquerors.&nbsp; the 12 spies sent by Moses reported that the people in Canaan were giants and to them the spies were just grasshoppers.&nbsp; It seems that the people the Israelites were fighting weren't even fully human.&nbsp; And before you mock, remember you believe in jinn.&nbsp; ;o) &nbsp;&nbsp; <br><span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by Salaam_Erin - 11 December 2012 at 9:17am</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Tue, 11 Dec 2012 09:05:06 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? : Hi Islam,Quote: So then what...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24200&amp;PID=171365#171365</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71448">Placid</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 11 December 2012 at 6:39am<br /><br />Hi Islam,<br /><br />Quote: So then what are you?  You say that Jesus is not God.  Well, this is the belief of the majority of "Christians".  Are you a Unitarian? <br /><br />Response: --- What am I? --- I became a Christian, --- that means I accepted Jesus as my Savior many years ago, in a Baptist Church, for which I thank God, and the caring people that witnessed to me about the Love of God and His provision for salvation through Jesus Christ. <br /><br />--- Now since you ask I will speak freely of what Christians believe, --- and it is through Faith in God, and an awareness of His presence with us, that gives the assurance of Eternal life, (which is also verified to Christians in the Quran, Surah 3:55).<br />However, I began to read and study the Bible and I learned about the faith of Abraham, our Patriarch. --- Then the many other Prophets and teachers.<br />In studying the NT, I realized that faith and knowledge were just the beginning. To really know God’s will for my life, I needed to surrender my will completely to God and take Jesus as my Lord, as well as my Savior.<br /><br />--- To take Him as our Lord means that we become obedient to His teaching, which comes from ‘the Sermon on the Mount,’ Matthew 5, 6, and 7, --- and the two commandments to “Love God with all your heart,” --- And ‘love your neighbor as yourself’. --- A single verse that expresses this instruction is John 5:<br />24  “Most assuredly, I say to you, he who hears My word and believes in Him (God) who sent Me has everlasting life, and shall not come into judgment, but has passed from death into life.<br />--- “He who HEARS My word. --- The word ‘HEAR’ has the deeper meaning of --- ‘understanding and obeying’ Jesus’ teaching.<br />In dedicating myself to follow Jesus as He said to His disciples and Apostles, “Follow Me,” --- so I have done that.<br /><br />--- It is really like your signature verse:<br />--- Say: "Truly, my prayer and my service of sacrifice, my life and my death, are (all) for God, the Cherisher of the Worlds.” (Surat al-Anaam: 162).<br />--- That is true dedication, so do you have the assurance of eternal life, as the Scriptures say we can have? --- (I’m not inviting you to be like me, --- but how are you in your present level of faith in God?) --- Can you agree with what I say next?<br /><br />I would like to make a comparison --- to becoming a true Muslim.<br />I understand that Islam means ‘Surrender,’ or ‘Submission,’ according to Surah 5:<br />3 This day have I perfected your religion for you, completed My favor upon you, and have chosen for you Islam as your religion.<br />--- (This seems to have been ‘imbedded’ in this verse later, because it does not suit the context, and it seems that it was revealed to Muhammad in year 10 of the Hijrah, after the victory had been won over idolatry, --- shortly before his death.)<br />--- And this referred to the Faith of Abraham, as in Surah 2:<br />132 The same did Abraham enjoin upon his sons, and also Jacob, (saying): O my sons! Lo! Allah hath chosen for you the (true) religion; therefore die not save as men who have surrendered (unto Him).<br />Yusuf Ali: 132 And this was the legacy that Abraham left to his sons, and so did Jacob; "Oh my sons! God hath chosen the Faith for you; then die not except in the Faith of Islam."<br />--- (So to follow the Faith of Abraham makes one a ‘believer’ --- and you don’t need labels, because that tries to ‘categorize’ you, --- The word “Christian’ really means ‘Christ’s one.’<br /><br />--- I have worked most of my time in inter-denominational Church groups. I just like to say I am a Bible believing, Evangelical, --- which you may understand in the following things I say.<br /><br />--- I became fascinated by the Quran, because it gives the same pattern of conversion that the Gospel does.<br />The first point is to Believe in God as Sovereign and Almighty. Then to believe in His word, as it says in Surah 4:<br />162 But those among them who are well-grounded in knowledge, and the believers, believe in what hath been revealed to thee and what was revealed before thee: And (especially) those who establish regular prayer and practise regular charity and believe in God and in the Last Day: To them shall We soon give a great reward.<br />163 We have sent thee inspiration, as We sent it to Noah and the Apostles after him: we sent inspiration to Abraham, Isma'il, Isaac, Jacob and the Tribes, to Jesus, Job, Jonah, Aaron, and Solomon, and to David We gave the Psalms.<br />164&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Of some apostles We have already told thee the story; of others We have not; - and to Moses God spoke direct; -<br />165 Apostles who gave good news as well as warning, that mankind, after (the coming) of the apostles, should have no plea against God: For God is Exalted in Power, Wise.<br />166 But God beareth witness that what He hath sent unto thee He hath sent from His (own) knowledge, and the angels bear witness: But enough is God for a witness.<br />167 Those who reject Faith and keep off (men) from the way of God, have verily strayed far, far away from the Path.<br />--- (So, --- to know God’s will for our lives, we have to believe these words that speak of the inspiration of the Prophets, and receive this same ‘inspiration ‘ by the Holy Spirit, before we are in this realm of Faith as a believer.<br /><br />So the first part in Islam would be to Believe in God and His word, and His Prophets and their Prophecies and fulfillment, --- and pray personally to God.<br />--- Then we are ready for the next step, --- which is a familiar word to you, but used with improper meaning. ---<br /><br />--- The word is ‘Jihad,’ --- which means ‘struggle.’<br />This is the inner struggle to yield one’s will to God's will and give Him full control of our lives.<br />Therefore, we make Him the Master of our days, and our destiny. <br />Then one would be a Muslim, --- A ‘Surrendered one,’ --- would they not?<br /><br />One more comparison from the Quran in Surah 3:<br />52 But when Jesus became conscious of their disbelief, he cried: Who will be my helpers in the cause of Allah? The disciples said: We will be Allah's helpers. We believe in Allah, and bear thou witness that we have surrendered (unto Him).<br />Yusuf Ali: 52 When Jesus found Unbelief on their part He said: "Who will be My helpers to (the work of) God?" Said the disciples: "We are God's helpers: We believe in God, and do thou bear witness that we are Muslims.<br />53 Our Lord (God)! -We believe in that which Thou hast revealed and we follow him (Jesus) whom Thou hast sent. Enroll us among those who witness (to the truth).<br /><br />--- So I am a believer and ‘follower’ of Jesus like the Apostles were (and by God’s grace, will continue to be surrendered unto Him).<br />--- And finally, this last verse that follows gives the assurance:<br />3:55&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;Behold! God said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection:<br /><br />(Sorry, it is a little long, but you were asking. --- Would you also like to relate your testimony so that we might know your experience of Faith as well?)  <br /> <br /><br />Placid<br /><br />]]>
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   <pubDate>Tue, 11 Dec 2012 06:39:15 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? :    Originally posted by islamispeace...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24200&amp;PID=171360#171360</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=69566">Caringheart</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 10 December 2012 at 6:20pm<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by islamispeace</strong></em><br /><br />&nbsp;&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; <br><br>What does the Bible say on this matter? <img src="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif" border="0" align="absmiddle" alt="Wink" />&nbsp; <br></div><br><br>In the Bible it says, 'satan do not tempt me&#091;by asking for shows of proof&#093;, you do not put the Lord God to the test'.&nbsp; Satan tried Jesus in the desert by provocating for him to give proofs of his God.<br>Jesus was clear that there are no proofs to be given since they would not be believed anyway.<br><br>Two questions...<br>- So what sources do you read that you think are so reliable and unbiased?&nbsp; Do you read from both sides?&nbsp; I do.<br>- Why is it so hard for you to have a civilized conversation with someone about your faith?&nbsp; You have expressed your doubts left and right, but have I been uncivil in answering your doubts?<br><span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by Caringheart - 10 December 2012 at 6:25pm</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Mon, 10 Dec 2012 18:20:32 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? : &amp;#034;Moreover, none of this explains...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24200&amp;PID=171358#171358</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=69566">Caringheart</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 10 December 2012 at 5:53pm<br /><br />"Moreover, none of this explains why "God" commanded the Israelites to kill infants."<br><br>You are correct, there is no answer for it.&nbsp; Only God can give the answer.<br>]]>
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   <pubDate>Mon, 10 Dec 2012 17:53:25 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? :   in your own words(islamispeace)...You...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24200&amp;PID=171357#171357</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=69566">Caringheart</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 10 December 2012 at 5:49pm<br /><br /><i>in your own words(islamispeace)</i>...<br><br>You are not a representative of <i>anything other than Islam</i>, so <i>why do you presume to speak</i> on behalf of <i>other religion</i>? <br>__________________________________<br><br>In my case, I am seeking answers to my questions about the teachings of Muhammad, and the prevalent beliefs of those who call themselves muslim.<br><span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by Caringheart - 12 December 2012 at 8:53pm</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Mon, 10 Dec 2012 17:49:52 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? : &amp;#034;Basically, you are saying...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24200&amp;PID=171356#171356</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=69566">Caringheart</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 10 December 2012 at 5:45pm<br /><br />"Basically, you are saying "it was in the past; what's done is done". <br><br>Actually I am saying to be sure you learn from the new covenant not to act in this way... the way of the old testament.<br>]]>
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   <pubDate>Mon, 10 Dec 2012 17:45:08 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? :  In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent,...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24200&amp;PID=171355#171355</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=53418">islamispeace</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 10 December 2012 at 5:31pm<br /><br />In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />If you take the time to read all of my posts you will see that I use many sources... muslim and non-muslim.</div><br><br>That's a load of BS.&nbsp; In none of your responses to me did you provide any sources, whether Muslim or non-Muslim, with the exception of the article by a Catholic apologist in your last post.&nbsp; I have asked you on numerous occasions to provide your sources and you have always ignored my request.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />I have actually been reading the quran because I thought the criticisms of it were unfair.&nbsp; I could see where much of the criticism of some of what is in the quran is no different than what is in the old testament.<br><br>Would your rather I take the word of those who speak against the quran, without reading to judge for myself?</div><br><br>You already do!&nbsp; <img src="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif" border="0" align="absmiddle" alt="LOL" />&nbsp; That is clear by the fact that many of your claims against the Quran mimic the claims of "those who speak against the Quran".&nbsp; For example, you foolishly referred to Surah al-Tawba ("kill them whereever you find them) and claimed that it was proof of the similarity between the Quran and the "Old Testament".&nbsp; Like many other ignoramuses and "those who speak against the Quran", you quoted the verse completely out of context and made a false claim about it.&nbsp; I know from experience that this verse is one of the favorites of anti-Islamic buffoons.&nbsp; The same claim you made, I have already heard many times from other like-minded people.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />If I am not interested in what you believe then why do I thank you for sharing what you believe?<br>The bigger question is whether or not you can take a similar interest in understanding others in order to reach understanding and peace, or do you prefer to chase after dissention?&nbsp; What would the Creator wish?</div><br><br>It is perfectly clear from your posts that you are not interested in "understanding".&nbsp; You are a phony.&nbsp; You pretend to be interested in dialogue and "understanding" but your posts show otherwise.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />If you don't care what I think then why bother to engage in these discussions?</div><br><br>Um...haven't I already made this clear?&nbsp; I am interested in facts, not opinions.&nbsp; That is why I "engage in these discussions."&nbsp; It is to determine the facts and refute the lies, inshaAllah.&nbsp; <br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />You are right, you don't need to convince me of anything, but if what you say offers encouragement then we are on a road to peace, and that should be the whole point of discussion.</div> &nbsp;&nbsp; <br><br>It doesn't matter to me if it gives you "encouragement".&nbsp; If you had already done the research that you claim you have done, you would already be encouraged, instead of repeating ad nauseum the same cliched arguments against Islam, the Quran and of course Muhammad (pbuh).&nbsp; Therefore, it is clear to me that the purpose of you being here is not to achieve "understanding" or "peace".&nbsp; <br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br /><blockquote>"I know that you have already made up your mind due to years of brainwashing and subjective and poor research. "<br></blockquote>There you go again saying that <i>you</i> know what <b>I</b> think.<br>It is a shame that you are so closed minded(or maybe you are just young), because you are wrong.</div><br><br>Sure, sure.&nbsp; I am simply making observations based on what I have read in your posts.&nbsp; If you think I am wrong, then you need to do a better job of proving it.&nbsp; It is amply clear from your posts that you are not interested in learning about Islam.&nbsp; How could you be?&nbsp; You repeat the same ridiculous arguments that any person with no idea about Islam would make.&nbsp; Don't blame me for your own failures.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />I have a question for you.<br>I don't see your allah of the quran as any different from the God of the old testament.&nbsp; Your Allah orders killing in his name also.&nbsp; So why are you making this argument against God of the old testament?</div> &nbsp;&nbsp; <br><br>You still don't get it, do you?&nbsp; The "God" of the "Old Testament" orders the killing of innocent people, including infants!&nbsp; Allah (swt) does not.&nbsp; That is the topic of this thread.&nbsp; There is a difference between killing infants and killing enemy combatants.&nbsp; Are you so dense and disturbed that you can't see that?<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />No, God of the old testament, by everything the old and new testament testify to, made the decision to 'do a new thing' (it is in the scriptures, prophesied in the old, fulfilled in the new)... He made a new covenant revealing a different aspect of Himself.&nbsp; We who <b>'have ears to hear and eyes to see'</b> follow the new covenant.</div>&nbsp; <br><br>Actually, you close your "ears" and "eyes" to the plain truth about the slaughter the "God" of the "Old Testament" ordered.&nbsp; You think that because there is a "new covenant" (which will expire as I showed), somehow we can forget about the horrific acts committed in the past.&nbsp; Basically, you are saying "it was in the past; what's done is done".&nbsp; What kind of sicko thinks this way?<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />I say, I am not one to justify anything.&nbsp; If God did indeed order it, then I am not one to call it evil, unless I also want to call God evil.&nbsp; I am not one to judge.&nbsp; I am not one to say blindly that it was ok.&nbsp; According to my own wisdom I can not understand killing and I would always have to argue with God anytime killing was said to be done in His name.&nbsp; But that is me in my own wisdom.&nbsp; It is why I say that I am glad that I do not live by a God who says such things.&nbsp; If that was God in the old testament, then I am fully devoted and grateful to God for the new testament.</div><br><br>Wow...arrogance, pride and blind faith, all rolled into one!&nbsp; <br><br>Furthermore, you still have not answered my question, silly!&nbsp; Here it is again for like the fifth time:<br><br><font color="#FF0000"><font color="#000000"><font color="#FF0000">"</font></font></font><font color="#FF0000"><font color="#000000"><font color="#FF0000"><u><b>"Killing babies is evil."&nbsp; You are telling me that this statement cannot be substantiated?</b></u>&nbsp; I don't know whether to laugh or scream!&nbsp; Your blind refusal to acknowledge evil as evil is both comedic and disturbing at the same time.&nbsp; It's really weird."<br><br><font color="#000000">I am asking you if the statement "killing babies is evil" can be substantiated or not.&nbsp; </font></font></font></font>Answer the question.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />As far as the "law"... if you read my reply to Hasan... you must do some studying on Judaism to understand... you must know the whole of the scriptures.&nbsp; The following is what I shared with Hasan.<br>There was the physical law - the law of rituals<br>and the spiritual law<br>If you do some study on Judaism it explains this much better than I can.<br>Jesus abolished the law of sacrifice.&nbsp; He showed that clean and unclean has not to do with ritual but with what is in the heart.&nbsp; He regularly revealed that the Pharisees, though they followed the letter of the law, were unclean because their hearts were far from God.<br>If one belongs to God He naturally follows the spiritual laws of God.</div>&nbsp; <br><br>The views of Judaism are irrelevant here, especially since neither one of us is a Jew.&nbsp; I have found that Christians tend to completely misrepresent Judaism for their own purposes.&nbsp; You are not a representative of Judaism, so why are you speaking on behalf of it?&nbsp; Without evidence, your claims about the Jewish law are nothing but uncorroborated opinions.<br><br>Moreover, none of this explains why "God" commanded the Israelites to kill infants.&nbsp; It is a distraction, but one which only affects Christians who can sleep better at night by trying to distance themselves from the Old Testament as much as possible.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />You also overlook where I say... quoting the scriptures... <b>'all scripture is useful for instruction'</b>.<br>It's not paying lip service to have learned not to go around killing people in the name of God.&nbsp; We still gain from the scriptures the wisdom of how, and why, not to sin.&nbsp; Does Islam teach about sin?&nbsp; Aren't God's laws meant to keep us from sinning?&nbsp; Isn't that the main purpose of the scriptures, and if they help us to do that, then there is the wisdom contained in them, correct?</div>&nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; <br><br>Again, none of this explains why your "scripture" talks about killing infants.&nbsp; The Israelites were not "sinning" when they were marauding through the Holy Land, killing everything in their path.&nbsp; This is psychotic behavior, and for Christians to claim that it was God's commandment is asick and perverse lie against God, who is just and compassionate.&nbsp; <br><br>When I said you were paying "lip service" to the Tanakh, I explained why I thought so.&nbsp; I said:<br><font color="#FF0000"><br>"So, in your view, <u><b>the only use now for the "Old Testament" is to "remind" you of how the Israelites could not follow the law, even though you also do not follow the law</b></u>!&nbsp; What "wisdom" is there to gain from paying lip service to a book you don't even follow?"</font><br><br>You don't follow the Tanakh.&nbsp; You only use it to when it suits your purpose.&nbsp; Therefore, you only pay "lip service" to it.&nbsp; <br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />Regarding proofs... There is no proof to be had except the proof that will come on judgement day.</div><br><br>Says one whose faith is blind.&nbsp; What would be the use of such "proof" if by then it would too late to acknowledge it?&nbsp; How can God expect us to believe in Him if He does not give us sound proof?&nbsp; What do you think will happen on Judgement Day when the "proof" is finally laid bare for all to see?&nbsp; Will God say to all (including the disbelievers who wanted proof):<br><br>"Good game everyone.&nbsp; Let's all go to Paradise!" <br><br>Or will He say to those who did not believe:<br><br>"Depart from me ye cursed into everlasting damnation!" &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; <br><br>What does the Bible say on this matter? <img src="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif" border="0" align="absmiddle" alt="Wink" />&nbsp; <br><span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by islamispeace - 10 December 2012 at 5:36pm</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Mon, 10 Dec 2012 17:31:40 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? :   Originally posted by honetogoing...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24200&amp;PID=171347#171347</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=69566">Caringheart</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 10 December 2012 at 3:43pm<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by honeto</strong></em><br /><br />going back to the original issue, how did such injustices (killing of innocent people, babies, and animals) creep into OT and claimed to be words of God? <br>Hasan</div><br><br>answered and done. <br>peace<br>]]>
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   <pubDate>Mon, 10 Dec 2012 15:43:01 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? :  Originally posted by Caringheart Originally...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=59438">honeto</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 10 December 2012 at 2:23pm<br /><br /> <div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by honeto</strong></em><br /><br />I believe that God has never ordered indiscriminate killings of innocent people ... by another people who are suppose to value life and be good. Hasan</div>Good to hear Hasan.Then I should never have to fear being killed by you or any other who believes as you do.salaam,CH</div><br /><br />Caringheart,<br />unless you commit murder or cause mischief on the land,according to the Quran.<br />So now going back to the original issue, how did such injustices (killing of innocent people, babies, and animals) creep into OT and claimed to be words of God? <br />Hasan ]]>
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   <pubDate>Mon, 10 Dec 2012 14:23:28 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? :  Originally posted by islamispeaceWhat...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24200&amp;PID=171328#171328</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=66457">bunter</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 10 December 2012 at 8:15am<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by islamispeace</strong></em><br /><br />What on earth does the punishment of Hellfire for those who deserve it due to the conscious choice they made have to do with killing babies, who represent everything that is innocent?  Do you realize how desperate you sound in trying to justify what any rational, God-fearing person would rightfully denounce as pure evil?  Why is it so hard for you to denounce evil? </div><br />It is a sad tactic of yours to denigrate or insult others? Do you think that a valid form of argument?<br /><br />There is no change of topic here but an attempt to ask you if the God of the OLd Testament is the same as the Allah of Islam? Hence. the question about Allah burning off skin and splashing water as hot as molten metal in peoples faces for eternity - so what is your answer?<br /><div class="BBquote">Let me know if you agree or disagree:1.  God is good.2. God is not evil.3. God commands good.4. God does not command evil.5. Charity is good.6. God commands charity.7. Killing babies is evil.8. God does not command killing babies. They are not even moral dilemmas...at least not to normal, rational people. I guess that does not include you guys</div> <br />If we are talking about about the God of the Bible lets look at your item "God does not command evil" and I think I might agree with that but the question is who DECIDES what is evil? For example, Biblically the injunction is for one man and one wife so any God who commands anything different is commanding evil. Charity is indeed good but where does it originate - well the Bible in 1 Corinthians 13 tells us that it originates in or out of love - so love sees no race or creed and give to anyone in need - is this how you see it also?]]>
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   <pubDate>Mon, 10 Dec 2012 08:15:10 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? :  Greetings islamispeace,If you...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24200&amp;PID=171314#171314</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=69566">Caringheart</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 09 December 2012 at 6:27pm<br /><br />Greetings islamispeace,<br><br>If you take the time to read all of my posts you will see that I use many sources... muslim and non-muslim.<br><br>I have actually been reading the quran because I thought the criticisms of it were unfair.&nbsp; I could see where much of the criticism of some of what is in the quran is no different than what is in the old testament.<br><br>Would your rather I take the word of those who speak against the quran, without reading to judge for myself?<br><br>If I am not interested in what you believe then why do I thank you for sharing what you believe?<br>The bigger question is whether or not you can take a similar interest in understanding others in order to reach understanding and peace, or do you prefer to chase after dissention?&nbsp; What would the Creator wish?<br><br>If you don't care what I think then why bother to engage in these discussions?<br><br>You are right, you don't need to convince me of anything, but if what you say offers encouragement then we are on a road to peace, and that should be the whole point of discussion.<br><blockquote>"I know that you have already made up your mind due to years of brainwashing and subjective and poor research. "<br></blockquote>There you go again saying that <i>you</i> know what <b>I</b> think.<br>It is a shame that you are so closed minded(or maybe you are just young), because you are wrong.<br><br>I have a question for you.<br>I don't see your allah of the quran as any different from the God of the old testament.&nbsp; Your Allah orders killing in his name also.&nbsp; So why are you making this argument against God of the old testament?<br><br>No, God of the old testament, by everything the old and new testament testify to, made the decision to 'do a new thing' (it is in the scriptures, prophesied in the old, fulfilled in the new)... He made a new covenant revealing a different aspect of Himself.&nbsp; We who <b>'have ears to hear and eyes to see'</b> follow the new covenant.<br><br>I have answered your question over and over, so there is really no point in your continuing to address me.&nbsp; Here was, and is, my answer, again.<br><blockquote>I say, I am not one to justify anything.&nbsp; If God did indeed order it, then I am not one to call it evil, unless I also want to call God evil.&nbsp; I am not one to judge.&nbsp; I am not one to say blindly that it was ok.&nbsp; According to my own wisdom I can not understand killing and I would always have to argue with God anytime killing was said to be done in His name.&nbsp; But that is me in my own wisdom.&nbsp; It is why I say that I am glad that I do not live by a God who says such things.&nbsp; If that was God in the old testament, then I am fully devoted and grateful to God for the new testament.<br></blockquote>As far as the "law"... if you read my reply to Hasan... you must do some studying on Judaism to understand... you must know the whole of the scriptures.&nbsp; The following is what I shared with Hasan.<br><blockquote>There was the physical law - the law of rituals<br>and the spiritual law<br>If you do some study on Judaism it explains this much better than I can.<br>Jesus abolished the law of sacrifice.&nbsp; He showed that clean and unclean has not to do with ritual but with what is in the heart.&nbsp; He regularly revealed that the Pharisees, though they followed the letter of the law, were unclean because their hearts were far from God.<br>If one belongs to God He naturally follows the spiritual laws of God.<br><br>This is why it is so important to know all of the scriptures and not just part.&nbsp; Full understanding can not come unless you know the whole of scripture.<br></blockquote>You also overlook where I say... quoting the scriptures... <b>'all scripture is useful for instruction'</b>.<br>It's not paying lip service to have learned not to go around killing people in the name of God.&nbsp; We still gain from the scriptures the wisdom of how, and why, not to sin.&nbsp; Does Islam teach about sin?&nbsp; Aren't God's laws meant to keep us from sinning?&nbsp; Isn't that the main purpose of the scriptures, and if they help us to do that, then there is the wisdom contained in them, correct?<br><br>Regarding proofs... There is no proof to be had except the proof that will come on judgement day.<br><br>Salaam,<br>CH<br><span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by Caringheart - 09 December 2012 at 6:38pm</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Sun, 09 Dec 2012 18:27:54 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? :  In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent,...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24200&amp;PID=171301#171301</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=53418">islamispeace</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 09 December 2012 at 11:37am<br /><br />In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Placid</strong></em><br /><br />Response: --- No, --- I am not a Jehovah’s Witness. --- The reason I have not answered before is because there were other questions in the same post that I want to answer as well, which we will get to later, but I have been busy on other posts and other things that take me away. <br>Since you want to dwell more on the OT, we will look at a little more in 1 Samuel before this terrible slaying and annihilation was done, for which we are sorry for, but are not responsible for.</div><br><br>So then what are you?&nbsp; You say that Jesus is not God.&nbsp; Well, this is the belief of the majority of "Christians".&nbsp; Are you a Unitarian?&nbsp; <br><br>I never said that you are "responsible" for the stories of infanticide in the Bible.&nbsp; In fact, no one has made that accusation.&nbsp; The issue is how can you believe that a just and compassionate God would allow the blood of innocents to be spilled in a mass orgy of senseless violence.&nbsp; You are not responsible for the alleged killings because they allegedly happened thousands of years ago, but by refusing to see them as evil and counter to everything God has said He wants, you blaspheme against Him.&nbsp; That is the issue.&nbsp; <br><br>Making excuses for the slaughter only compounds the problem.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Placid</strong></em><br /><br />As you said, all of the destroying of generations in the Quran, simply removed the older generation and allowed the younger generation to replace them. --- But was that true?<br>--- Is that what it says in these verses?:<br>17:16 When We decide to destroy a population, We (first) send a definite order to those among them who are given the good things of this life and yet transgress; so that the word is proved true against them: then (it is) We destroy them utterly. <br>18:59 And (all) those townships! We destroyed them when they did wrong, and We appointed a fixed time for their destruction. <br>21:95 And there is a ban upon any community which We have destroyed: that they shall not return. <br>22:45 How many a township have We destroyed while it was sinful, so that it lieth (to this day) in ruins, and (how many) a deserted well and lofty tower! <br>25:36 Then We said: Go together unto the folk who have denied Our revelations. Then We destroyed them, a complete destruction. <br>25:39 To each one We set forth Parables and examples; and each one We broke to utter annihilation (for their sins). <br><br>--- What does the word ‘annihilation’ mean in 25:39?  --- And when it adds the word ‘utter,’ --- would you suggest there was anything left?</div>&nbsp; <br><br>It is referring to the annihilation of the older generation.&nbsp; The subsequent generations had to come from somewhere.&nbsp; They didn't just grow out of the earth, did they?&nbsp; As Ibn Kathir notes in his commentary on Surah 6:6:<br><font color="#0000FF"><br>"(And created after them other generations.) so that We test the new generations, as well. Yet, they committed similar errors and were destroyed, <u><b>as their ancestors were destroyed</b></u>. Therefore, beware of the same end that might befall you, for you are not dearer to Allah than these previous nations, but the Messenger whom you defied is dearer to Allah than the Messengers they defied. Thus, you are more liable than them to receive torment, if it was not for Allah's mercy and kindness."</font><br><br>Also, as I said, the destruction of these nations was done by God, not by human armies supposedly following God's command.&nbsp; Only God has the authority to destroy a nation.&nbsp; He has not given that authority to mankind.&nbsp; That is why Muslims are forbidden to kill non-combatants.&nbsp; Genocide is strictly forbidden.&nbsp; It was not forbidden for the Israelites, according to the Bible.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Placid</strong></em><br /><br /><strong>(When the Israelites were influenced by the idolatrous nations around, they became idolaters as well. --- When they repented and turned back to God, then He delivered them and restored their land that had been taken away.)<br><br>--- I don’t want to make the posts too long, but I know you will not read and understand it if I don’t give you the Scriptures.<br>I enjoy our discussions. --- We know there has always been God’s judgment on sin. --- So I will add more later, to see what happened in this case.</strong></div><br><br>I am already aware of the excuses given for why the Israelites had to kill every living thing.&nbsp; It makes no sense to destroy a nation because the Israelites sinned.&nbsp; Each person is responsible for his/her own sins.&nbsp; The Israelites sinned themselves, by worshiping the idols of the surrounding nations.&nbsp; <u><b>How does that justify sticking a sword into the soft flesh of an infant?&nbsp; How does that justify staining the earth with the blood of the innocent?&nbsp; How heartless were these Israelites that they could kill an infant without any hesitation?</b></u>&nbsp; This is extremely disturbing behavior and I am shocked as to what lengths you will go to justify or excuse it.<br><br>I will say this though.&nbsp; I find your posts to be much more honest than that of Caringheart's, and I appreciate that.&nbsp; Even though I completely disagree with your reasoning and am utterly shocked and disturbed by it, I still have nothing but respect for you because of your honesty.&nbsp; <br><span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by islamispeace - 09 December 2012 at 11:40am</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Sun, 09 Dec 2012 11:37:34 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? :   In the Name of Allah, the...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24200&amp;PID=171300#171300</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=53418">islamispeace</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 09 December 2012 at 11:08am<br /><br />In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br /><blockquote>"Islam's history and nature is far too complex to be treated in a brief study. The very term Islam' is equivocal - its sects far exceed in variety and number the almost uncountable sects of Protestant Christianity. To speak indiscriminately of 'Muslims' as if all Muslims believed the same thing, or as if Islam and the Qur'an meant the same thing to all of them, is misleading." (http://jloughnan.tripod.com/3f_islam.htm)<br></blockquote><br>What about you?<br><i>in your own words...</i></div><br><br>What do you mean "in your own words"?&nbsp; Whose "words" are they going to be?&nbsp; What are you, a lawyer doing a cross-examination?&nbsp; This isn't "pretend time"!&nbsp; <img src="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif" border="0" align="absmiddle" alt="LOL" /><br><br>To answer your question, your attempted distraction by quoting a Catholic's opinion about Islam is irrelevant.&nbsp; It is irrelevant if some Muslims don't interpret the Quran according to the consensus, although it is true that many do, just as many Catholics don't necessarily follow the ruling of the Church.&nbsp; An individual's personal opinions are unimportant.&nbsp; We should practice Islam as the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) practiced it.&nbsp; The interpretation should be based on the texts, the Quran and Sunnah.&nbsp; Personal opinions are irrelevant.&nbsp; <br><br>In addition, the Catholic author makes a few inaccurate statements.&nbsp; For example, he claims that the 4 schools of jurisprudence (Fiqh) are actually different "sects", which is untrue.&nbsp; The Hanifis, Malikis, Shafis and Hanbalis are all Sunni Muslims.&nbsp; They agree on all the central tenets of Islam.&nbsp; The differences are on minor and mundane issues, such as whether to raise one's hands when going into rukuh during prayer.&nbsp; On the theological issues, they are in complete agreement.&nbsp; Therefore, they are not "sects".&nbsp; <br><br>By the way, thank you for showing where you get your information about Islam from.&nbsp; It is from like-minded fellow Christians!&nbsp; What a shock!&nbsp; So, instead of learning about Islam from Islamic sources, you learn it from Christian ones.&nbsp; How very "unbiased" of you!&nbsp;<img src="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif" border="0" align="absmiddle" alt="LOL" /> <br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />Who are you, a muslim, to interpret the Judeo-Christian scriptures, the holy scriptures, from your own point of view and then tell others what their scripture says?<br><br>What are <u>your</u> credentials to make judgements about what the scriptures of others say?</div>&nbsp; &nbsp; <br><br>Another attempted distraction.&nbsp; Why don't you answer my question?&nbsp; <br><br>When did I interpret the Bible from my "own point of view"?&nbsp; When I quoted the Bible, such as Luke 19:27, I backed it up with a commentary written by a Christian scholar!&nbsp; How is that my "point of view"?&nbsp; <img src="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif" border="0" align="absmiddle" alt="LOL" /><br><br>On the other hand, you have admitted that you read the Quran based on what it "means" to you.&nbsp; In other words, you admit that you read it with a certain level of bias.&nbsp; You are not interested in what it actually says, just what you want it to say.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />We are free to express what we think.&nbsp; We are free to discuss and learn from the beliefs of others.&nbsp; We need to understand what the other believes, to dispel misunderstanding.</div><br><br>If you were interested in "what the other believes, to dispel misunderstanding", you would not be (mis)quoting the Quran over and over again and then saying that your understanding is based on what the verses mean to you.&nbsp; This just shows that you are not interested in "what the other believes..."&nbsp; It is just another attempt by a phony to distract attention from her real agenda.&nbsp; You should know that I absolutely despise phonies!&nbsp; There have been many on this forum in the past. &nbsp;&nbsp; <br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />Yes, I am discussing the scriptures according to what they mean to me when I read them.&nbsp; (Just as you are discussing the scriptures of others according to what they mean to you) &nbsp; And if you can convince me that your scriptures mean something different, and that they do not mean to you what they mean to me... that is encouragement.</div><br><br>You still have not answered my question.&nbsp; What a surprise!&nbsp; <br><br>Who are you that I need to "convince" you?!&nbsp; Do you think I care what a random person like you thinks about my religion or my holy book?&nbsp; I could care less what an ignorant person like you thinks.&nbsp; As I said, I am not interested in personal opinions.&nbsp; I am interested in facts.&nbsp; Facts are supported by evidence.&nbsp; You have presented absolutely nothing in terms of evidence for any of your claims.&nbsp; <br><br>And I certainly don't suffer from any any delusions that I would be able to "convince" you of anything.&nbsp; I know that you have already made up your mind due to years of brainwashing and subjective and poor research. &nbsp;&nbsp; <br><br>Now, back to the topic and the other questions that you have desperately tried to ignore:<br><br><div ="bbquote"=""><font color="#FF0000"><font color="#000000"><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br /></font></font><font color="#FF0000"><font color="#000000">You either deliberately twist, or just misunderstand about blind faith...<br>Blind faith - when one uses the idea of faith to support a claim that can not be substantiated<br><b>blind faith</b> would be saying that God indeed ordered it... justifying killing with faith... supporting a claim that can not be proven (just as the radical Islamists are using what it says in the quran to justify killing even though there is no way to prove that what is said in the quran is from God)<br>However I say, I am not one to justify anything.&nbsp; If God did indeed order it, then I am not one to call it evil, unless I also want to call God evil.&nbsp; I am not one to judge.&nbsp; I am not one to say blindly that it was ok.&nbsp; According to my own wisdom I can not understand killing and I would always have to argue with God anytime killing was said to be done in His name.&nbsp; But that is me in my own wisdom.&nbsp; It is why I say that I am glad that I do not live by a God who says such things.&nbsp; If that was God in the old testament, </font></font><font color="#FF0000"><font color="#000000">then I am fully devoted and grateful to God for the new testament.</font></font><font color="#FF0000"><font color="#000000"></div></font></font></div><font color="#FF0000"><font color="#000000"><br>This ridiculous argument can be used to excuse every atrocity.&nbsp; By refusing to call evil what it is, because "God" allegedly ordered it, then one can excuse murder, rape and all around bad behavior.&nbsp; By remaining silent on the issue, you are justifying it.&nbsp; <br><br>I particularly like this utterly foolish statement:<br><font color="#0000FF"><br>"</font></font></font><font color="#FF0000"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0000FF"><u><b>It is why I say that I am glad that I do not live by a God who says such things</b></u>.&nbsp; If that was God in the old testament, then I am fully devoted and grateful to God for the new testament." &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; </font><br><br>"A God who says such things"?&nbsp; Isn't this "God" the same as in the "New Testament"?<br><br>You also did not actually answer my question, but instead tried to dance around it, as usual.&nbsp; I asked you:<br><font color="#FF0000"><br>"</font></font></font><font color="#FF0000"><font color="#000000"><font color="#FF0000"><u><b>"Killing babies is evil."&nbsp; You are telling me that this statement cannot be substantiated?</b></u>&nbsp; I don't know whether to laugh or scream!&nbsp; Your blind refusal to acknowledge evil as evil is both comedic and disturbing at the same time.&nbsp; It's really weird."</font><br><br></font></font><font color="#FF0000"><font color="#000000">Answer the question.&nbsp; Can the statement "killing babies is evil" be "substantiated" or is it a statement of "blind faith"?&nbsp; Think carefully now, if you have to.&nbsp; Most other people would realize the truth immediately.</font></font><br><br><div ="bbquote"=""><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />I have not read all that you wrote.&nbsp; I am responding to this one thing.<br><blockquote>How are "God's people" at fault for "making mistakes" when they were simply doing what God allegedly commanded them?&nbsp; The Israelites did not just wake up one morning and decide to kill everyone.&nbsp; The Bible says that God commanded them to kill everyone.&nbsp; How can it be a mistake if God ordered them to do it? <br></blockquote>The mistakes I am referring to are the mistakes of the Israelites in not following God's law.&nbsp; We learn from the old testament the mistakes of the Israelites in their disobedience.&nbsp; This is why the old testament has value even though we live by a new covenant.&nbsp; We were addressing how one could not be loyal to the old testament but still gain wisdom and guidance from it.<br><br><i>'all scripture is useful for instruction'</i></div></div><br>What does this have to do with this topic?&nbsp; Did the Israelites make a "mistake" when they butchered men, women, children and animals?&nbsp; <br><br>So, in your view, the only use now for the "Old Testament" is to "remind" you of how the Israelites could not follow the law, even though you also do not follow the law!&nbsp; What "wisdom" is there to gain from paying lip service to a book you don't even follow?<br><div ="bbquote"=""><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />"You would love to prove that wouldn't you?"<br><br>Not really.&nbsp; I would rather not believe than millions of people are being deceived and like innocent children being led astray.<br>I would dearly love for this not to be true.</div></div><br>But, in your view, it is still true, is it not?&nbsp; Even though you "would rather not believe" that other people are "being deceived", you still think that is the case, right?&nbsp; So, if you believe this, then this belief requires proof.&nbsp; <br><span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by islamispeace - 09 December 2012 at 11:16am</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Sun, 09 Dec 2012 11:08:41 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? : Hi IslamContinuing in 1 Samuel...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71448">Placid</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 09 December 2012 at 6:45am<br /><br />Hi Islam<br /><br />Continuing in 1 Samuel 8:<br />God delivered Israel from the Philistines by defeating them and putting such fear in them that they went back to their own land and lived at peace with Israel.<br />--- But again the Jewish people turned back to idolatry, --- so this was the result of their disobedience again in 1 Samuel 8: <br />1 Now it came to pass when Samuel was old that he made his sons judges over Israel. <br />2 The name of his firstborn was Joel, and the name of his second, Abijah; they were judges in Beersheba. <br />3 But his sons did not walk in his ways; they turned aside after dishonest gain, took bribes, and perverted justice.<br />4 Then all the elders of Israel gathered together and came to Samuel at Ramah, <br />5 and said to him, “Look, you are old, and your sons do not walk in your ways. Now make us a king to judge us like all the nations.”<br />6 But the thing displeased Samuel when they said, “Give us a king to judge us.” So Samuel prayed to the Lord. <br />7 And the Lord said to Samuel, “Heed the voice of the people in all that they say to you; for they have not rejected you, but they have rejected Me, that I should not reign over them. <br />8 According to all the works which they have done since the day that I brought them up out of Egypt, even to this day—with which they have forsaken Me and served other gods—so they are doing to you also. <br />9 Now therefore, heed their voice. However, you shall solemnly forewarn them, and show them the behavior of the king who will reign over them.”<br />10 So Samuel told all the words of the Lord to the people who asked him for a king. <br />11 And he said, “This will be the behavior of the king who will reign over you: He will take your sons and appoint them for his own chariots and to be his horsemen, and some will run before his chariots. <br />12 He will appoint captains over his thousands and captains over his fifties, will set some to plow his ground and reap his harvest, and some to make his weapons of war and equipment for his chariots. <br />13 He will take your daughters to be perfumers, cooks, and bakers. <br />14 And he will take the best of your fields, your vineyards, and your olive groves, and give them to his servants. <br />15 He will take a tenth of your grain and your vintage, and give it to his officers and servants. <br />16 And he will take your male servants, your female servants, your finest young men,&#091;a&#093; and your donkeys, and put them to his work. <br />17 He will take a tenth of your sheep. And you will be his servants. <br />18 And you will cry out in that day because of your king whom you have chosen for yourselves, and the Lord will not hear you in that day.”<br />19 Nevertheless the people refused to obey the voice of Samuel; and they said, “No, but we will have a king over us, <br />20 that we also may be like all the nations, and that our king may judge us and go out before us and fight our battles.”<br />21 And Samuel heard all the words of the people, and he repeated them in the hearing of the Lord. <br />22 So the Lord said to Samuel, “Heed their voice, and make them a king.”<br /><br />--- We will see the difference between doing things under God’s leadership and under man’s leadership.<br /><br /><br />Placid<br /><br />]]>
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   <pubDate>Sun, 09 Dec 2012 06:45:19 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? :  Greetings islamispeace,&amp;#034;Islam&amp;#039;s...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=69566">Caringheart</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 08 December 2012 at 7:52pm<br /><br />Greetings islamispeace,<br><blockquote>"Islam's history and nature is far too complex to be treated in a brief study. The very term Islam' is equivocal - its sects far exceed in variety and number the almost uncountable sects of Protestant Christianity. To speak indiscriminately of 'Muslims' as if all Muslims believed the same thing, or as if Islam and the Qur'an meant the same thing to all of them, is misleading." (http://jloughnan.tripod.com/3f_islam.htm)<br></blockquote><br>What about you?<br><i>in your own words...</i><br>Who are you, a muslim, to interpret the Judeo-Christian scriptures, the holy scriptures, from your own point of view and then tell others what their scripture says?<br><br>What are <u>your</u> credentials to make judgements about what the scriptures of others say?<br><br>We are free to express what we think.&nbsp; We are free to discuss and learn from the beliefs of others.&nbsp; We need to understand what the other believes, to dispel misunderstanding.<br><br>Yes, I am discussing the scriptures according to what they mean to me when I read them.&nbsp; (Just as you are discussing the scriptures of others according to what they mean to you) &nbsp; And if you can convince me that your scriptures mean something different, and that they do not mean to you what they mean to me... that is encouragement.<br><br>Salaam,<br>CH<br><br><span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by Caringheart - 08 December 2012 at 7:53pm</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Sat, 08 Dec 2012 19:52:13 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? : In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent,...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24200&amp;PID=171294#171294</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=53418">islamispeace</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 08 December 2012 at 2:11pm<br /><br />In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />I have not read all that you wrote.&nbsp; I am responding to this one thing.<br><blockquote>How are "God's people" at fault for "making mistakes" when they were simply doing what God allegedly commanded them?&nbsp; The Israelites did not just wake up one morning and decide to kill everyone.&nbsp; The Bible says that God commanded them to kill everyone.&nbsp; How can it be a mistake if God ordered them to do it? <br></blockquote>The mistakes I am referring to are the mistakes of the Israelites in not following God's law.&nbsp; We learn from the old testament the mistakes of the Israelites in their disobedience.&nbsp; This is why the old testament has value even though we live by a new covenant.&nbsp; We were addressing how one could not be loyal to the old testament but still gain wisdom and guidance from it.<br><br><i>'all scripture is useful for instruction'</i></div><br><br>What does this have to do with this topic?&nbsp; Did the Israelites make a "mistake" when they butchered men, women, children and animals?&nbsp; <br><br>So, in your view, the only use now for the "Old Testament" is to "remind" you of how the Israelites could not follow the law, even though you also do not follow the law!&nbsp; What "wisdom" is there to gain from paying lip service to a book you don't even follow?<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />"You would love to prove that wouldn't you?"<br><br>Not really.&nbsp; I would rather not believe than millions of people are being deceived and like innocent children being led astray.<br>I would dearly love for this not to be true.</div><br><br>But, in your view, it is still true, is it not?&nbsp; Even though you "would rather not believe" that other people are "being deceived", you still think that is the case, right?&nbsp; So, if you believe this, then this belief requires proof.&nbsp; <br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />"you try to insist that you are right."<br><br>Actually I believe I told you that I was encouraged by what you say the verse in question means to you.</div><br><br>But if you had done the "research" you claim to have done, would you not already have been "encouraged" and understood how the majority of Muslims have interpreted those verses?&nbsp; Yet, you claimed that you were reading the verses as you understood them.&nbsp; This is a very deceptive tactic, and one which shows your bias.&nbsp; How is your view of those verses representative of 1.5 billion Muslims?&nbsp; Who are you, a Christian, to interpret the Quran, the holy book of Islam, from your own point of view and then tell Muslims what their book says?&nbsp; Talk about arrogance.&nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; <br>]]>
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   <pubDate>Sat, 08 Dec 2012 14:11:28 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? :   Originally posted by honetoI...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24200&amp;PID=171269#171269</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=69566">Caringheart</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 07 December 2012 at 4:54pm<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by honeto</strong></em><br /><br /><br>I believe that God has never ordered indiscriminate killings of innocent people ... by another people who are suppose to value life and be good. <br>Hasan</div><br><br>Good to hear Hasan.<br>Then I should never have to fear being killed by you or any other who believes as you do.<br>salaam,<br>CH<br>]]>
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   <pubDate>Fri, 07 Dec 2012 16:54:31 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? :  Originally posted by CaringheartGreetings...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24200&amp;PID=171267#171267</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=59438">honeto</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 07 December 2012 at 4:30pm<br /><br /> <div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br /><br />Greetings islamispeace,I have not read all that you wrote.  I am responding to this one thing.<blockquote>How are "God's people" at fault for "making mistakes" when they were simply doing what God allegedly commanded them?  The Israelites did not just wake up one morning and decide to kill everyone.  The Bible says that God commanded them to kill everyone.  How can it be a mistake if God ordered them to do it? </blockquote>The mistakes I am referring to are the mistakes of the Israelites in not following God's law.  We learn from the old testament the mistakes of the Israelites in their disobedience.  This is why the old testament has value even though we live by a new covenant.  We were addressing how one could not be loyal to the old testament but still gain wisdom and guidance from it.<em>'all scripture is useful for instruction'</em><br /><br /><br /></div> <br /><br />CAringheart,<br />we are not talking about mistakes or disobedience, rather  commands that are associated with God and addressed to the "Jews" to kill everyone of those who did not believe as they did. So do not try to cover that truth up by distorting it.<br />I believe that God has never ordered such indiscriminate killings of innocent people including babies and animals by another people who are suppose to value life and be good. That's the dilemma we are talking about and you seem to agree that it is not a good command to follow. But then you are trying to distort this to make it look something else. <br />On top, the saying of Jesus (pbuh) according to the NT suggests, that his followers have to live and fulfill every iota of the OT laws.  While you say you don't! Where does that take you?<br /><br />Hasan<span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by honeto - 07 December 2012 at 5:01pm</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Fri, 07 Dec 2012 16:30:23 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? : Caringheart,that&amp;#039;s a contradictory...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24200&amp;PID=171266#171266</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=59438">honeto</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 07 December 2012 at 4:15pm<br /><br />Caringheart,<br />that's a contradictory statement. I wonder how you hold it as part of divine guidance, holy book, but cannot cope to agree or live with it? Must be hard?<br />Hasan]]>
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   <pubDate>Fri, 07 Dec 2012 16:15:23 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? : Hi IslamQuote: (I said) ---...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24200&amp;PID=171259#171259</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71448">Placid</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 07 December 2012 at 9:28am<br /><br />Hi Islam<br /><br />Quote: (I said) --- You notice too, that the Calendar was restarted with the life of Jesus, the Christ. <br />Here was the way to view the OT, --- after the NT began. --- It is like closing a door that has a large window in it. --- The door is closed, --- but whenever you want to look out at WHAT WAS, --- you can do that. --- But the focus is on the future.<br /><br />(You said): Even if the "door is closed", it does not change the fact that when it was "open", horrible things were being done, and it was claimed that God had commanded them.  It seems to me that "the door" should have been closed much sooner.<br />--- I asked you before if you were a Jehovah's Witness and you didn't answer.  Are you?  I am curious.<br /><br />Response: --- No, --- I am not a Jehovah’s Witness. --- The reason I have not answered before is because there were other questions in the same post that I want to answer as well, which we will get to later, but I have been busy on other posts and other things that take me away. <br />Since you want to dwell more on the OT, we will look at a little more in 1 Samuel before this terrible slaying and annihilation was done, for which we are sorry for, but are not responsible for.<br /><br />As you said, all of the destroying of generations in the Quran, simply removed the older generation and allowed the younger generation to replace them. --- But was that true?<br />--- Is that what it says in these verses?:<br />17:16 When We decide to destroy a population, We (first) send a definite order to those among them who are given the good things of this life and yet transgress; so that the word is proved true against them: then (it is) We destroy them utterly. <br />18:59 And (all) those townships! We destroyed them when they did wrong, and We appointed a fixed time for their destruction. <br />21:95 And there is a ban upon any community which We have destroyed: that they shall not return. <br />22:45 How many a township have We destroyed while it was sinful, so that it lieth (to this day) in ruins, and (how many) a deserted well and lofty tower! <br />25:36 Then We said: Go together unto the folk who have denied Our revelations. Then We destroyed them, a complete destruction. <br />25:39 To each one We set forth Parables and examples; and each one We broke to utter annihilation (for their sins). <br /><br />--- What does the word ‘annihilation’ mean in 25:39?  --- And when it adds the word ‘utter,’ --- would you suggest there was anything left?<br /><br />In the Book of Samuel, it shows how God dealt with the enemies of Israel, when they trusted in Him. Notice this example, in 1 Samuel 7:<br />3  Then Samuel spoke to all the house of Israel, saying, “If you return to the Lord with all your hearts, then put away the foreign gods and the Ashtoreths from among you, and prepare your hearts for the Lord, and serve Him only; and He will deliver you from the hand of the Philistines.” <br />4 So the children of Israel put away the Baals and the Ashtoreths,<strong> and served the Lord only.<br />5 And Samuel said, “Gather all Israel to Mizpah, and I will pray to the Lord for you.” <br />6 So they gathered together at Mizpah, drew water, and poured it out before the Lord. And they fasted that day, and said there, “We have sinned against the Lord.” And Samuel judged the children of Israel at Mizpah.<br />7 Now when the Philistines heard that the children of Israel had gathered together at Mizpah, the lords of the Philistines went up against Israel. And when the children of Israel heard of it, they were afraid of the Philistines. <br />8 So the children of Israel said to Samuel, “Do not cease to cry out to the Lord our God for us, that He may save us from the hand of the Philistines.”<br />9 And Samuel took a suckling lamb and offered it as a whole burnt offering to the Lord. Then Samuel cried out to the Lord for Israel, and the Lord answered him. <br />10 Now as Samuel was offering up the burnt offering, the Philistines drew near to battle against Israel. But the Lord thundered with a loud thunder upon the Philistines that day, and so confused them that they were overcome before Israel. <br />11 And the men of Israel went out of Mizpah and pursued the Philistines, and drove them back as far as below Beth Car. <br />12 Then Samuel took a stone and set it up between Mizpah and Shen, and called its name Ebenezer,&#091;c&#093; saying, “Thus far the Lord has helped us.”<br />13 So the Philistines were subdued, and they did not come anymore into the territory of Israel. And the hand of the Lord was against the Philistines all the days of Samuel. <br />14 Then the cities which the Philistines had taken from Israel were restored to Israel, from Ekron to Gath; and Israel recovered its territory from the hands of the Philistines.<br />--- (When the Israelites were influenced by the idolatrous nations around, they became idolaters as well. --- When they repented and turned back to God, then He delivered them and restored their land that had been taken away.)<br /><br />--- I don’t want to make the posts too long, but I know you will not read and understand it if I don’t give you the Scriptures.<br />I enjoy our discussions. --- We know there has always been God’s judgment on sin. --- So I will add more later, to see what happened in this case. <br /> <br /><br />Placid<br /><br />]]>
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   <pubDate>Fri, 07 Dec 2012 09:28:12 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? :   Originally posted by honetoCaringheart, I...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24200&amp;PID=171248#171248</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=69566">Caringheart</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 06 December 2012 at 9:10pm<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by honeto</strong></em><br /><br />Caringheart,<br>I think we then agree that OT and those quotes that are subject of our discussion are a problem. They are not inline with justice and mercy the followers of NT and FT (the Quran) profess.<br>I would like to know what you think happened here, in the OT?<br>Hasan</div><br><br>Greetings Hasan,<br>I can not, and do not, try to explain why God would order such killing.&nbsp; Have you read what I wrote to islamispeace?&nbsp; My answer is in there.<br>Salaam to you,<br>CH<br>]]>
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   <pubDate>Thu, 06 Dec 2012 21:10:40 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? : &amp;#034;you try to insist that you...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24200&amp;PID=171247#171247</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=69566">Caringheart</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 06 December 2012 at 8:54pm<br /><br />"you try to insist that you are right."<br><br>Actually I believe I told you that I was encouraged by what you say the verse in question means to you.<br>]]>
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   <pubDate>Thu, 06 Dec 2012 20:54:37 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? : &amp;#034;You would love to prove...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24200&amp;PID=171246#171246</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=69566">Caringheart</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 06 December 2012 at 8:51pm<br /><br />"You would love to prove that wouldn't you?"<br><br>Not really.&nbsp; I would rather not believe than millions of people are being deceived and like innocent children being led astray.<br>I would dearly love for this not to be true.<br>]]>
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   <pubDate>Thu, 06 Dec 2012 20:51:22 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? :  Greetings islamispeace,I have...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24200&amp;PID=171244#171244</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=69566">Caringheart</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 06 December 2012 at 8:20pm<br /><br />Greetings islamispeace,<br><br>I have not read all that you wrote.&nbsp; I am responding to this one thing.<br><blockquote>How are "God's people" at fault for "making mistakes" when they were simply doing what God allegedly commanded them?&nbsp; The Israelites did not just wake up one morning and decide to kill everyone.&nbsp; The Bible says that God commanded them to kill everyone.&nbsp; How can it be a mistake if God ordered them to do it? <br></blockquote>The mistakes I am referring to are the mistakes of the Israelites in not following God's law.&nbsp; We learn from the old testament the mistakes of the Israelites in their disobedience.&nbsp; This is why the old testament has value even though we live by a new covenant.&nbsp; We were addressing how one could not be loyal to the old testament but still gain wisdom and guidance from it.<br><br><i>'all scripture is useful for instruction'</i><br><span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by Caringheart - 06 December 2012 at 8:26pm</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Thu, 06 Dec 2012 20:20:12 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? :  In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent,...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24200&amp;PID=171237#171237</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=53418">islamispeace</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 06 December 2012 at 7:29pm<br /><br />In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...<br><br>Placid, you said:<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Placid</strong></em><br /><br />Correction: --- According to our Book, the New Testament, --- God didn’t order any killings of anyone. --- We refer to the OT, but we are under a new “Code” of --- Love God, and love your neighbor as yourself. --- Which fulfills the Ten Commandments, and the prophecy of a “New Covenant” in Jeremiah 31, --- and the fulfillment in Hebrews 8.</div><br><br>Brother Hasan was referring to the Tanakh, what you call the "Old Testament".&nbsp; Do you not regard it as "scripture"?<br><br>The argument that in the "New Testament", God does not order any killings is a distraction from the fact that in the "Old Testament", He does.&nbsp; What the NT says does not change what the OT says.&nbsp; You regard both as scripture, so the moral dilemma remains.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Placid</strong></em><br /><br />-- Can you find any killing of infants in the NT apart from what King Herod ordered in Matthew 2:16, which was the first attempt of Satan to kill Jesus?</div><br><br>Of course not, but the Jesus of the "New Testament" never actually denounced the killings of infants in the "Old Testament" as evil and wrong, did he?&nbsp; By not even considering it to be an issue, yet preaching nonviolence at the same time, does not make things all hunky-dory. &nbsp; <br><br>I am glad you brought up the "Massacre of the Innocents" episode mentioned in the Gospel of Matthew.&nbsp; It only proves my point about infanticide.&nbsp; Imagine how the Jewish mothers must have felt, assuming Herod did <u><i>actually</i></u> order the killings of all male children under 2 years of age, when soldiers came and massacred their babies.&nbsp; Now think about how the Canaanite women must have felt to watch their babies slaughtered before their very eyes.&nbsp; <br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Placid</strong></em><br /><br />will explain again that the New Covenant was based on the Prophecies of the Old Covenant, --- but as it says in Romans 10:<br>1 Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved. <br>2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. <br>3 For they, being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God.<br>4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.<br><br>You see, --- In the New Covenant, --- there is persecution, but no rebellion, no violence, no killing of adults, in vengeance, --- and no killing of babies.</div><br><br>I agree but that is not the issue.&nbsp; You are trying to reduce the "Old Testament's" significance by appealing to the "New Testament" but none of that changes the fact that in the "Old Testament", horrible things were done.&nbsp; The argument that "it was in the past" and "what's done is done" should be unacceptable to any rational person.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Placid</strong></em><br /><br />However, I wanted to ask Honeto, --- and I will ask you as well, “What is written in ‘your book’?” <br><br>Surah 6:6 See they not how many of those before them We did destroy? - generations We had established on the earth, in strength such as We have not given to you - for whom We poured out rain from the skies in abundance, and gave (fertile) streams flowing beneath their (feet): yet for their sins We destroyed them, and raised in their wake fresh generations (to succeed them). <br>10:13 We destroyed the generations before you when they did wrong; and their messengers (from Allah) came unto them with clear proofs (of His Sovereignty) but they would not believe. Thus do We reward the guilty folk. <br>17:16 When We decide to destroy a population, We (first) send a definite order to those among them who are given the good things of this life and yet transgress; so that the word is proved true against them: then (it is) We destroy them utterly. <br>18:59 And (all) those townships! We destroyed them when they did wrong, and We appointed a fixed time for their destruction. <br>21:95 And there is a ban upon any community which We have destroyed: that they shall not return. <br>22:45 How many a township have We destroyed while it was sinful, so that it lieth (to this day) in ruins, and (how many) a deserted well and lofty tower! <br>25:36 Then We said: Go together unto the folk who have denied Our revelations. Then We destroyed them, a complete destruction. <br>25:39 To each one We set forth Parables and examples; and each one We broke to utter annihilation (for their sins). <br>29:31 When Our Apostles came to Abraham with the good news, they said: "We are indeed going to destroy the people of this township: for truly they are (addicted to) crime." <br>29:40 Each one of them We seized for his crime: of them, against some We sent a violent tornado (with showers of stones); some were caught by a (mighty) Blast; some We caused the earth to swallow up; and some We drowned (in the waters): It was not Allah Who injured (or oppressed) them: They injured (and oppressed) their own souls. <br>32:26 Does it not teach them a lesson, how many generations We destroyed before them, in whose dwellings they (now) go to and fro? Verily in that are Signs: Do they not then listen? <br>38:3 How many generations before them did We destroy? In the end they cried (for mercy)- when there was no longer time for being saved! <br>50:36 But how many generations before them did We destroy (for their sins), - stronger in power than they? Then did they wander through the land: was there any place of escape (for them)?</div><br><br>I already dealt with this.&nbsp; Did you read my response to you on <a href="http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24200&amp;PID=170820#170820" target="_blank">11/28</a>?&nbsp; The verses above refer to God's punishment of sinful nations.&nbsp; In other words, <u><b>God Himself</b></u> brought down His wrath on these people.&nbsp; He <u><b>did not</b></u> order an army of humans to go and kill every living thing.&nbsp; <br><br>When God commanded believers to fight against their enemies, who were persecuting them for shunning their false gods and worshiping only God, He explicitly forbid the killing of unarmed civilians, especially women and children.&nbsp; It was only allowed to fight and kill enemy combatants.&nbsp; <br><br>Moreover, if you notice in Surah 6:6, it clearly states that after the sinful generation was destroyed, another generation took its place.&nbsp; Obviously, this new generation came from somewhere.&nbsp; They were the offspring of the previous generations that were destroyed and they were warned not to follow in the footsteps of their ancestors, lest the same punishment overtake them as well.&nbsp; In short, God did not just kill everyone.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Placid</strong></em><br /><br />--- You notice too, that the Calendar was restarted with the life of Jesus, the Christ. <br>Here was the way to view the OT, --- after the NT began. --- It is like closing a door that has a large window in it. --- The door is closed, --- but whenever you want to look out at WHAT WAS, --- you can do that. --- But the focus is on the future.</div><br><br>Even if the "door is closed", it does not change the fact that when it was "open", horrible things were being done, and it was claimed that God had commanded them.&nbsp; It seems to me that "the door" should have been closed much sooner.<br><br>Also, let me point out in reference to the "future" you speak of, as I pointed out to "Caringheart" before, the Bible says that Jesus (pbuh) will apparently return and destroy all who rejected him.&nbsp; So, using your analogy, "the door" will apparently be "reopened".&nbsp; Someone apparently forgot to lock it.&nbsp; Luke 19:27 states this clearly:<br><br><font color="#0000FF">"<span id="en-NIV-25759" ="text="" luke-19-27"=""><span ="woj"="">But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me.’”</span></span>"</font><br><br>I asked you before if you were a Jehovah's Witness and you didn't answer.&nbsp; Are you?&nbsp; I am curious.<br><br>I also asked you why you were trying to find excuses for the acts of genocide and infanticide found in the Tanakh.&nbsp; At first you said that you had "no comment" but then immediately afterwards, you attempted to find excuses for this senseless slaughter.&nbsp; What if it had been your child, God forbid?&nbsp; How would you have felt?&nbsp; How would that have brought you closer to God, if the people killing your child were claiming to do it at the behest of their "God"? &nbsp;&nbsp; <br><span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by islamispeace - 06 December 2012 at 7:35pm</span>]]>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? : In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent,...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24200&amp;PID=171236#171236</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=53418">islamispeace</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 06 December 2012 at 6:17pm<br /><br />In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />I respect your opinion.&nbsp; I hope you can respect that my position and my experience is different from yours.<br>I understand, you do not feel safe to argue with God.&nbsp; I on the other hand feel perfectly safe in doing so.<br>My God is a loving Father who gave me a mind and a free will, and one who understands and does not expect me to be without questions.&nbsp; How could I not have questions when the mind of God is so much greater than my own?</div><br><br>You still don't realize how self-contradictory all your "opinions" are.&nbsp; You preach to me about "pride" and "humility" yet you say that you "argue" with God.&nbsp; You say God gave you "a mind and a free will", yet you can't bring yourself around to using common sense and admitting that something evil is indeed evil.&nbsp; At that point, you simply consign yourself to the excuse that "God knows best" (despite claiming at the same time that you "argue" with Him).&nbsp; Uh-huh... <br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />Re:<br><blockquote>"I <i><b>believe</b></i> that God is one.&nbsp; Do I know it of a certainty?&nbsp; Could I end up being wrong?&nbsp; Could the whole Judeo teaching be a made up story?&nbsp; Of course it could.&nbsp; Does Jesus appearance on this earth confirm the stories though?&nbsp; <b>For me</b>, yes, He does."<br></blockquote>It's all about belief.&nbsp; Isn't that what I have been saying all along?</div><br><br>I responded to this statement and pointed out how utterly contradictory it is.&nbsp; How can your "beliefs" be "confirmed" yet you still think that they "could" be wrong?&nbsp; What is the purpose of "belief" if you have doubts?&nbsp; The fact that you have doubts yet still cling to your "beliefs" shows that your faith is blind.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />You said;<br><blockquote>"In short, I <b><i>believe</i></b> the Biblical stories of genocide are Satanic lies which were inserted into the Bible after the fact."<br></blockquote>Since you are allowed to say this then I should also be allowed to say the following...<br>that I <b><i>believe</i></b> that the word given to Muhammad is a deception of satan.</div><br><br>You would love to prove that wouldn't you?&nbsp; <img src="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif" border="0" align="absmiddle" alt="LOL" /><br><br>You conveniently ignored what I said in response to your absurd questions about God and Satan.&nbsp; You asked:<br><br><font color="#0000FF">"Do you not believe that Lucifer corrupted the creation?&nbsp; Did God know that Lucifer was going to be a fallen angel, that Lucifer would challenge God's supreme being and seek to destroy His creation?"</font><br><br>In response to these nonsensical questions, I wrote:<br><br><b><font color="#FF0000">"What the heck does that have to do with the Bible's claim that <u>God</u> (and NOT Satan) commanded the Israelites to kill infants and children?</font>&nbsp; </b><br><br><font color="#FF0000">Do I believe that Satan has corrupted mankind?&nbsp; Yes, of course.&nbsp; That explains why the Bible dares implicate the just and good Creator of the universe with pure evil.&nbsp; In short, I believe the Biblical stories of genocide are Satanic lies which were inserted into the Bible after the fact."</font><br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />I'm sorry that you do not understand the things I write and that you get them twisted.&nbsp; I don't imagine going over and over it will help.<br>I am discussing not a parent punishing their children but a parent losing their children and that, that causes pain.&nbsp; Just as when God loses His 'children', His creation, it causes Him pain.&nbsp; We are His children, even more so than our own human children are our children, because He created us, all of us.&nbsp; That makes all of us His children... His creation.&nbsp; Without God there are no children.</div><br><br>You really do have a short memory.&nbsp; You brought up the parent-child analogy in your response on <a href="http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24200&amp;PID=171038#171038" target="_blank">12/3</a> in which you stated:<br><font color="#0000FF"><br>"Let me ask... Do you love your children... assuming that you have any... if not, did your parents love you?&nbsp; <u><b>Do you not punish your children... or did your parents punish you?&nbsp; Is it unloving to do so, or are you trying to assert any means to get your children onto a right path?&nbsp; Would it be loving to never discipline your children and allow them to go their own way, without warning them that there would be consequences, some which are irreversible</b></u>?&nbsp; Would it not hurt to lose them to satan in spite of all your efforts?&nbsp; Do you see that this can happen?<br>God gives every chance to choose Him, but if we do not belong to Him can He allow us to enter into heaven, the purest of places?&nbsp; Can a corrupt thing enter into purity?&nbsp; Or must a corrupt thing go to be where corruption is."</font><br><br>As you can see, you clearly compared parents disciplining their children to God punishing His "children" with eternal damnation.&nbsp; Don't blame me for "twisting" your words when you can't even remember what you wrote.&nbsp; <br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />Have you never heard of learning from mistakes?&nbsp; It is said that a truly wise person learns from the mistakes of others.<br><i>" A fool learns from his own mistakes, A wise man learns from the mistakes of others"</i><br>The old testament shows us all the mistakes made by God's people, though we are not bound to living any longer by old testament ways.</div> &nbsp;&nbsp; <br><br>How are "God's people" at fault for "making mistakes" when they were simply doing what God allegedly commanded them?&nbsp; The Israelites did not just wake up one morning and decide to kill everyone.&nbsp; The Bible says that God commanded them to kill everyone.&nbsp; How can it be a mistake if God ordered them to do it? <br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />What I know of the Qur'an is what I get from reading it myself.&nbsp; Unlike you suggest, I have not been told any 'lies' about the Qur'an.&nbsp; Perhaps you go by what you are told.&nbsp; I investigate for myself.</div> <br><br>You sound like a used-car salesperson, trying to sell an obviously deficient car by promoting your credentials.&nbsp; I proved how you misquoted the Quran on numerous occasions.&nbsp; You have lied on several occasions about what the Quran says but instead of admitting that you are wrong, you try to insist that you are right.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />Not in the instance I am referring to.&nbsp; Are <u><i>you</i></u> too lazy to go back and see for yourself?&nbsp; or afraid to admit that I am correct?&nbsp; It's ok, it doesn't matter.&nbsp; My question was answered and that is all that matters.</div>&nbsp; <br><br>I have checked and I <b><u>know</u></b> that you are wrong! <img src="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/smileys/smiley4.gif" border="0" align="absmiddle" alt="Big%20smile" /><br><br>Given your short memory, it makes sense that you can't remember.&nbsp; I won't play this childish game with you.&nbsp; But...do try to remember.&nbsp; Come on, you can do it!&nbsp; All it takes is a little effort.&nbsp; Go back to when our conversation began and you will see that you are wrong and that acting like a child only damages your reputation more.&nbsp; Here is a little hint for you: my post from 11/28.&nbsp; Now, don't be lazy or afraid to find out that you are wrong.&nbsp; If you want to insist on your childishness, then so be it. &nbsp; <br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />I obviously do not fail in, as you say, 'my paraphrasing' because you knew exactly what surah I was referring to.&nbsp; However I was not paraphrasing, <br>"I was expressing in my own words what the qur'an means to me."&nbsp;&nbsp; There is a difference.&nbsp; I am telling you what it says to me.&nbsp; If you tell me that it means something different to you, that is good.&nbsp; I am then encouraged.</div> <br><br>That just shows that you are not interested in facts but rather upholding your own ignorant opinions.&nbsp; In contrast to you, I am interested in what a text actually says, not what it "means" to me.&nbsp; I am interested in the facts.&nbsp; <br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />You feel free to challenge my scriptures, I also say to you, I feel that it is you who follow the word of a man and not God.&nbsp; Is one of us wrong, neither or us wrong, or both of us wrong?</div> &nbsp;&nbsp; <br><br>The difference is that I provide supporting evidence for my claims.&nbsp; All you have done is make vague claims, most of which I have refuted.&nbsp; So to answer your question:<br><br><font color="#0000FF">"Is one of us wrong, neither or us wrong, or both of us wrong?"</font><br><br>The answer is obvious.&nbsp; Both of us cannot be right.&nbsp; We could both be wrong about certain issues, but the evidence shown so far in this thread has shown that you are wrong about the issues we have discussed.&nbsp; What else can explain your contradictions, inconsistencies, absurd logic and complete absence of evidence?<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />I love the way you can throw insults at a person just for having a conversation, calling them lazy and liar just because you do not like the things they say.&nbsp; I am not lazy but I am having a conversation, not a classroom debate and not looking for a grade.&nbsp; I am sharing in conversation.&nbsp; You are free to disagree.&nbsp; I disagree with you plenty but I do not feel the need to insult you, your character, your integrity, or your beliefs.</div><br><br>Don't blame me for seeing it as it is!&nbsp; I am not afraid to tell people what I think of them.&nbsp; If you have such thin-skin, that's your problem.&nbsp; As it stands, I showed why I think you are a liar and a lazy person.&nbsp; You have not done much to prove me wrong besides complaining.&nbsp; Until you do, expect the same type of treatment and get over it.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />The surah we are discussing...<br>It doesn't refer to asking about the blessings given...<br>It refers to "those who <b>have been reading</b> the Book from before thee" ... what those before thee have read in the Book... those who have had the Word of God before thee.</div><br><br>This is what I wrote:<br><br><font color="#FF0000">"Here is what the Quran actually says:<br><br>"<u><b>We settled the Children of Israel in a beautiful dwelling-place, and provided for them sustenance of the best</b></u>: it was after knowledge had been granted to them, that they fell into schisms. Verily Allah will judge between them as to the schisms amongst them, on the Day of Judgment.&nbsp; <u><b>If thou wert in doubt as to what We have revealed unto thee, then ask those who have been reading the Book from before thee</b></u>: the Truth hath indeed come to thee from thy Lord: so be in no wise of those in doubt." (10:93-94)<br><br>As you can see, the verses were simply saying that if any Muslims have any doubt about the many blessings God poured upon the Jews, that they should <u><i>ask the Jews themselves</i></u>.&nbsp; The Quran was not suggesting that Muslims should consult the Jews or Christians about scripture."</font><br><br>The verses are telling the Muslims that if they have any doubts about how God "settled the Children of Israel in a beautiful dwelling-place and provided for them sustenance of the best" (i.e. blessed them), that they should ask the Jews themselves (i.e. "those who have been reading the Book from before thee"), who would confirm these verses.&nbsp; There is nothing in the verse that says Muslims should consult the Jews for spiritual guidance.&nbsp; <br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />My word means nothing to you so you must seek for yourself.&nbsp; I will share with you what I know, then it is up to you to verify it to your own satisfaction.&nbsp; We come here to learn.&nbsp; Learning takes place by investigating for ones self what others have to say.</div><br><br>This is the excuse of a person who has no evidence for any of her claims.&nbsp; When poked and prodded to provide evidence, the answer is "go find it yourself".&nbsp; It's like that commercial for Carfax.&nbsp; You are a used-car salesperson and I am the customer.&nbsp; I am asking you to "show me the Carfax!"&nbsp; As the salespeople in the commercials, you just stall and make excuses.&nbsp; <img src="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/smileys/smiley36.gif" border="0" align="absmiddle" alt="LOL" /><br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />Are you also aware of how convoluted the 'facts' are in some sources... Egyptian textbooks for instance... How about those that teach that Jews require blood to make matzo... what about those 'facts' that have been believed by many?&nbsp; Do you seek facts from sources on both sides of the argument?&nbsp; I do.&nbsp; (By the way, that is the definition of not being lazy)</div><br><br>I seek facts from academic and scholarly sources.&nbsp; Where do you seek "facts"?&nbsp; I am dying to know!<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />This is the face of Islam that you present to the world.&nbsp; It is not a good face and you wonder why people do not see good in Islam?</div><br><br>Who cares what those people think?&nbsp; As I said, I am interested in <u><b>facts</b></u><b>.&nbsp; </b>That does not mean I don't tolerate people's opinions.&nbsp; It just means that I do not care about people's opinions, because opinions are not facts.&nbsp; Opinions can be based on misinformation.&nbsp; They are the opposite of facts.&nbsp; Let me give you an example:<br><br>Say a racist bigot says that Latinos are taking jobs from hard-working Americans.&nbsp; This is an opinion.&nbsp; The facts are completely different, because many Latinos are forced to take jobs which no one else will take.&nbsp; The fact is that they are not stealing jobs from anyone.&nbsp; One statement is a racist opinion, devoid of any facts.&nbsp; The other statement <u><b>is</b></u> a fact.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />Here are a few instances:<br><blockquote>"Your views and opinions mean nothing to me.&nbsp; My hope is that other people who read these posts will benefit.&nbsp; When I talk with people like you, it is with the understanding that 99% of the time, you will refuse to acknowledge the facts."<br></blockquote><i>Your</i> facts.&nbsp; <i>You</i> have all the answers, and could not possibly be wrong.</div><br><br>Where did I say that I have all the answers?&nbsp; Where did I say that I cannot "possibly be wrong"?&nbsp; All I said was that it was my hope that other people who are more open to the facts will accept what I have stated.&nbsp; I am confident that they will accept my claims as factually accurate because I have provided the evidence.&nbsp; How you misconstrue that think it means that I think I have all the answers is beyond me.<br><br>Thank you for proving once again that you are a deceptive and foolish individual.&nbsp; <br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br /><i>You</i> know what is in <b>my</b> mind, and of course <i>you</i> could not be wrong.</div><br><br>From what I have seen and read in your posts so far? Sure!&nbsp; Don't blame me for having an impression of you based on what you have written.&nbsp; I would get the same impression if someone refused to admit that the Holocaust was evil.&nbsp; You are the one who has refused to state that killing babies is evil.&nbsp; That is what is in your mind, right?&nbsp; I am simply making an observation based on my observations.&nbsp; If you want to blame someone, then blame yourself for not listening to your God-given common sense.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />and you are absolutely certain, with proof, beyond even the shadow of a doubt, that your beliefs could not be wrong, even though they are just that... beliefs.</div>&nbsp; <br><br>On the issues we have discussed so far?&nbsp; Yes.&nbsp; How does that prove that I think that I know everything?&nbsp; This is typical "Caringheart" logic!<br><br>Now with regard to the central topic of this thread, yes, I am certain, "beyond a shadow of a doubt" that killing babies is evil and that God could not have ordered such barbarous behavior.&nbsp; I am not afraid to say that, unlike you.&nbsp; <font color="#FF0000"><font color="#000000"><br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br /></font></font><font color="#FF0000"><font color="#000000">You either deliberately twist, or just misunderstand about blind faith...<br>Blind faith - when one uses the idea of faith to support a claim that can not be substantiated<br><b>blind faith</b> would be saying that God indeed ordered it... justifying killing with faith... supporting a claim that can not be proven (just as the radical Islamists are using what it says in the quran to justify killing even though there is no way to prove that what is said in the quran is from God)<br>However I say, I am not one to justify anything.&nbsp; If God did indeed order it, then I am not one to call it evil, unless I also want to call God evil.&nbsp; I am not one to judge.&nbsp; I am not one to say blindly that it was ok.&nbsp; According to my own wisdom I can not understand killing and I would always have to argue with God anytime killing was said to be done in His name.&nbsp; But that is me in my own wisdom.&nbsp; It is why I say that I am glad that I do not live by a God who says such things.&nbsp; If that was God in the old testament, then I am fully devoted and grateful to God for the new testament.</div><br><br>This ridiculous argument can be used to excuse every atrocity.&nbsp; By refusing to call evil what it is, because "God" allegedly ordered it, then one can excuse murder, rape and all around bad behavior.&nbsp; By remaining silent on the issue, you are justifying it.&nbsp; <br><br>I particularly like this utterly foolish statement:<br><font color="#0000FF"><br>"</font></font></font><font color="#FF0000"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0000FF"><u><b>It is why I say that I am glad that I do not live by a God who says such things</b></u>.&nbsp; If that was God in the old testament, then I am fully devoted and grateful to God for the new testament." &nbsp; &nbsp; &nbsp;&nbsp; </font><br><br>"A God who says such things"?&nbsp; Isn't this "God" the same as in the "New Testament"?<br><br>You also did not actually answer my question, but instead tried to dance around it, as usual.&nbsp; I asked you:<br><font color="#FF0000"><br>"</font></font></font><font color="#FF0000"><font color="#000000"><font color="#FF0000"><u><b>"Killing babies is evil."&nbsp; You are telling me that this statement cannot be substantiated?</b></u>&nbsp; I don't know whether to laugh or scream!&nbsp; Your blind refusal to acknowledge evil as evil is both comedic and disturbing at the same time.&nbsp; It's really weird."</font><br><br></font></font><font color="#FF0000"><font color="#000000">Answer the question.&nbsp; Can the statement "killing babies is evil" be "substantiated" or is it a statement of "blind faith"?&nbsp; Think carefully now, if you have to.&nbsp; Most other people would realize the truth immediately.</font></font><br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />And you say that you do not argue with God.&nbsp; If God indeed ordered it, then you are arguing with God.&nbsp; By not believing God ordered it, you may very well be arguing with God.<br>You do argue with God.&nbsp; It's just you have more trust in your own wisdom.<br>I am not afraid to say that I argue with God.</div><br><br>You are a fool.&nbsp; In case it is not <i>painfully</i> clear by now,<u><b> I know for sure that God did not order such monstrous behavior.&nbsp; Not my God.</b></u>&nbsp; You lie against God if you think He did.&nbsp; I would hate to be you on the Day you meet him.&nbsp; <br><br>So, no.&nbsp; I don't "argue" with God, because I know, based on the knowledge that God is just and compassionate, that He did not order the killing of babies.&nbsp; The only ones I am arguing against are hypocritical blasphemers like you who think that God is willing to order such merciless slaughter, and have the audacity to complain about the Quran.&nbsp; <br>]]>
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   <pubDate>Thu, 06 Dec 2012 18:17:54 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? : Caringheart,I think we then agree...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=59438">honeto</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 06 December 2012 at 2:05pm<br /><br />Caringheart,<br />I think we then agree that OT and those quotes that are subject of our discussion are a problem. They are not inline with justice and mercy the followers of NT and FT (the Quran) profess.<br />I would like to know what you think happened here, in the OT?<br />Hasan]]>
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   <pubDate>Thu, 06 Dec 2012 14:05:44 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? : Hi Islam(Sorry to have missed...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71448">Placid</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 06 December 2012 at 12:08pm<br /><br />Hi Islam<br /><br />(Sorry to have missed your busy weekend but this is to continue from the top of Page 3):<br />This was my response to Honeto when he said, Quote: “so according to your book, God ordered killings of man and women who do not believe as you do.”<br /><br />Correction: --- According to our Book, the New Testament, --- God didn’t order any killings of anyone. --- We refer to the OT, but we are under a new “Code” of --- Love God, and love your neighbor as yourself. --- Which fulfills the Ten Commandments, and the prophecy of a “New Covenant” in Jeremiah 31, --- and the fulfillment in Hebrews 8.<br /><br />--- Can you find any killing of infants in the NT apart from what King Herod ordered in Matthew 2:16, which was the first attempt of Satan to kill Jesus?<br /><br />I will explain again that the New Covenant was based on the Prophecies of the Old Covenant, --- but as it says in Romans 10:<br />1 Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved. <br />2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. <br />3 For they, being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God.<br />4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.<br /><br />You see, --- In the New Covenant, --- there is persecution, but no rebellion, no violence, no killing of adults, in vengeance, --- and no killing of babies. <br /><br />However, I wanted to ask Honeto, --- and I will ask you as well, “What is written in ‘your book’?” <br /><br />Surah 6:6 See they not how many of those before them We did destroy? - generations We had established on the earth, in strength such as We have not given to you - for whom We poured out rain from the skies in abundance, and gave (fertile) streams flowing beneath their (feet): yet for their sins We destroyed them, and raised in their wake fresh generations (to succeed them). <br />10:13 We destroyed the generations before you when they did wrong; and their messengers (from Allah) came unto them with clear proofs (of His Sovereignty) but they would not believe. Thus do We reward the guilty folk. <br />17:16 When We decide to destroy a population, We (first) send a definite order to those among them who are given the good things of this life and yet transgress; so that the word is proved true against them: then (it is) We destroy them utterly. <br />18:59 And (all) those townships! We destroyed them when they did wrong, and We appointed a fixed time for their destruction. <br />21:95 And there is a ban upon any community which We have destroyed: that they shall not return. <br />22:45 How many a township have We destroyed while it was sinful, so that it lieth (to this day) in ruins, and (how many) a deserted well and lofty tower! <br />25:36 Then We said: Go together unto the folk who have denied Our revelations. Then We destroyed them, a complete destruction. <br />25:39 To each one We set forth Parables and examples; and each one We broke to utter annihilation (for their sins). <br />29:31 When Our Apostles came to Abraham with the good news, they said: "We are indeed going to destroy the people of this township: for truly they are (addicted to) crime." <br />29:40 Each one of them We seized for his crime: of them, against some We sent a violent tornado (with showers of stones); some were caught by a (mighty) Blast; some We caused the earth to swallow up; and some We drowned (in the waters): It was not Allah Who injured (or oppressed) them: They injured (and oppressed) their own souls. <br />32:26 Does it not teach them a lesson, how many generations We destroyed before them, in whose dwellings they (now) go to and fro? Verily in that are Signs: Do they not then listen? <br />38:3 How many generations before them did We destroy? In the end they cried (for mercy)- when there was no longer time for being saved! <br />50:36 But how many generations before them did We destroy (for their sins), - stronger in power than they? Then did they wander through the land: was there any place of escape (for them)?<br /><br />--- You notice too, that the Calendar was restarted with the life of Jesus, the Christ. <br />Here was the way to view the OT, --- after the NT began. --- It is like closing a door that has a large window in it. --- The door is closed, --- but whenever you want to look out at WHAT WAS, --- you can do that. --- But the focus is on the future. <br />Jesus said “Follow Me.” And Jesus has gone on ahead --- This instruction is also given in Surah 3: <br />50 I have come to you with a Sign from your Lord. So fear God, and obey me.<br />51 "'It is God Who is my Lord and your Lord; then worship Him. This is a Way that is straight.'"<br /><br />--- And the promised reward of following Jesus is so good that we don’t want to look back.<br />55 Behold! God said: "O Jesus! I will take thee and raise thee to Myself and clear thee (of the falsehoods) of those who blaspheme; I will make those who follow thee superior to those who reject faith, to the Day of Resurrection.<br /><br /><br />Placid<br /><br />]]>
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   <pubDate>Thu, 06 Dec 2012 12:08:09 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? :   for islamispeace,RE: humility9And...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=69566">Caringheart</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 05 December 2012 at 7:39pm<br /><br />for islamispeace,<br><br>RE:&nbsp; humility<br><p><span id="en-KJV-25698" ="text="" luke-18-9"=""><sup ="versenum"="">9&nbsp;</sup>And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:</span></p> <p><span id="en-KJV-25699" ="text="" luke-18-10"=""><sup ="versenum"="">10&nbsp;</sup>Two men went up into the temple to pray; the one a Pharisee, and the other a publican.</span></p> <p><span id="en-KJV-25700" ="text="" luke-18-11"=""><sup ="versenum"="">11&nbsp;</sup>The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men are, extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.</span></p> <p><span id="en-KJV-25701" ="text="" luke-18-12"=""><sup ="versenum"="">12&nbsp;</sup>I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.</span></p> <p><span id="en-KJV-25702" ="text="" luke-18-13"=""><sup ="versenum"="">13&nbsp;</sup>And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.</span></p> <p><span id="en-KJV-25703" ="text="" luke-18-14"=""><sup ="versenum"="">14&nbsp;</sup>I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other: for every one that exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted. - a parable of Jesus <font size="1">(book of Luke)</font></span></p><p><font size="2">and love;</font></p><p><span id="en-KJV-25236" ="text Luke-7-40">Jesus answering said unto him, Simon, I have somewhat to say unto thee. And he saith, Master, say on.</span> </p><p><span id="en-KJV-25237" ="text Luke-7-41"><sup ="versenum">41&nbsp;</sup>There was a certain creditor which had two debtors: the one owed five hundred pence, and the other fifty.</span></p> <p><span id="en-KJV-25238" ="text Luke-7-42"><sup ="versenum">42&nbsp;</sup>And when they had nothing to pay, he frankly forgave them both. Tell me therefore, which of them will love him most?</span></p> <p><span id="en-KJV-25239" ="text Luke-7-43"><sup ="versenum">43&nbsp;</sup>Simon answered and said, I suppose that he, to whom he forgave the most. And he said unto him, Thou hast rightly judged. - the words of Jesus <font size="1">(book of Luke)</font><br></span></p><span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by Caringheart - 05 December 2012 at 7:48pm</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Wed, 05 Dec 2012 19:39:09 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? :  also for Hasan,20For  I say...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=69566">Caringheart</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 05 December 2012 at 7:34pm<br /><br />also for Hasan,<br><br><span id="en-KJV-23255" ="text="" matt-5-20"=""><sup ="versenum"="">20&nbsp;</sup>For I say unto you, That except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, ye shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven.&nbsp; - the words of Jesus <font size="1">(book of Matthew)</font></span><br><span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by Caringheart - 05 December 2012 at 7:36pm</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Wed, 05 Dec 2012 19:34:43 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? :  Greetings islamispeace,I respect...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=69566">Caringheart</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 05 December 2012 at 6:58pm<br /><br />Greetings islamispeace,<br><br>I respect your opinion.&nbsp; I hope you can respect that my position and my experience is different from yours.<br>I understand, you do not feel safe to argue with God.&nbsp; I on the other hand feel perfectly safe in doing so.<br>My God is a loving Father who gave me a mind and a free will, and one who understands and does not expect me to be without questions.&nbsp; How could I not have questions when the mind of God is so much greater than my own?<br><br>Re:<br><blockquote>"I <i><b>believe</b></i> that God is one.&nbsp; Do I know it of a certainty?&nbsp; Could I end up being wrong?&nbsp; Could the whole Judeo teaching be a made up story?&nbsp; Of course it could.&nbsp; Does Jesus appearance on this earth confirm the stories though?&nbsp; <b>For me</b>, yes, He does."<br></blockquote>It's all about belief.&nbsp; Isn't that what I have been saying all along?<br><br>You said;<br><blockquote>"In short, I <b><i>believe</i></b> the Biblical stories of genocide are Satanic lies which were inserted into the Bible after the fact."<br></blockquote>Since you are allowed to say this then I should also be allowed to say the following...<br>that I <b><i>believe</i></b> that the word given to Muhammad is a deception of satan.<br><br>I'm sorry that you do not understand the things I write and that you get them twisted.&nbsp; I don't imagine going over and over it will help.<br>I am discussing not a parent punishing their children but a parent losing their children and that, that causes pain.&nbsp; Just as when God loses His 'children', His creation, it causes Him pain.&nbsp; We are His children, even more so than our own human children are our children, because He created us, all of us.&nbsp; That makes all of us His children... His creation.&nbsp; Without God there are no children.<br><br><blockquote>"One cannot be loyal to something and yet still expect wisdom or guidance from it. "<br></blockquote>Have you never heard of learning from mistakes?&nbsp; It is said that a truly wise person learns from the mistakes of others.<br><div align="center"><i>" A fool learns from his own mistakes, A wise man learns from the mistakes of others"</i><br><div align="left">The old testament shows us all the mistakes made by God's people, though we are not bound to living any longer by old testament ways.<br></div></div><br>What I know of the Qur'an is what I get from reading it myself.&nbsp; Unlike you suggest, I have not been told any 'lies' about the Qur'an.&nbsp; Perhaps you go by what you are told.&nbsp; I investigate for myself.<br><br><blockquote>"I quoted from both the Quran and Sunnah."<br></blockquote>Not in the instance I am referring to.&nbsp; Are <u><i>you</i></u> too lazy to go back and see for yourself?&nbsp; or afraid to admit that I am correct?&nbsp; It's ok, it doesn't matter.&nbsp; My question was answered and that is all that matters.<br><br>I obviously do not fail in, as you say, 'my paraphrasing' because you knew exactly what surah I was referring to.&nbsp; However I was not paraphrasing, <br>"I was expressing in my own words what the qur'an means to me."&nbsp;&nbsp; There is a difference.&nbsp; I am telling you what it says to me.&nbsp; If you tell me that it means something different to you, that is good.&nbsp; I am then encouraged.<br><br>You feel free to challenge my scriptures, I also say to you, I feel that it is you who follow the word of a man and not God.&nbsp; Is one of us wrong, neither or us wrong, or both of us wrong?<br><br>I love the way you can throw insults at a person just for having a conversation, calling them lazy and liar just because you do not like the things they say.&nbsp; I am not lazy but I am having a conversation, not a classroom debate and not looking for a grade.&nbsp; I am sharing in conversation.&nbsp; You are free to disagree.&nbsp; I disagree with you plenty but I do not feel the need to insult you, your character, your integrity, or your beliefs.<br><br>The surah we are discussing...<br>It doesn't refer to asking about the blessings given...<br>It refers to "those who <b>have been reading</b> the Book from before thee" ... what those before thee have read in the Book... those who have had the Word of God before thee.<br><br><blockquote>"You made claim about it, so be ready to support it."<br></blockquote>My word means nothing to you so you must seek for yourself.&nbsp; I will share with you what I know, then it is up to you to verify it to your own satisfaction.&nbsp; We come here to learn.&nbsp; Learning takes place by investigating for ones self what others have to say.<br><br><blockquote>"I consult sources which give...you know...facts."<br></blockquote>Are you also aware of how convoluted the 'facts' are in some sources... Egyptian textbooks for instance... How about those that teach that Jews require blood to make matzo... what about those 'facts' that have been believed by many?&nbsp; Do you seek facts from sources on both sides of the argument?&nbsp; I do.&nbsp; (By the way, that is the definition of not being lazy)<br><br><blockquote>"I am not interested in people's personal opinions."<br></blockquote>This is the face of Islam that you present to the world.&nbsp; It is not a good face and you wonder why people do not see good in Islam?<br><br><blockquote>"when did I say that I have all the answers?"<br></blockquote>Here are a few instances:<br><blockquote>"Your views and opinions mean nothing to me.&nbsp; My hope is that other people who read these posts will benefit.&nbsp; When I talk with people like you, it is with the understanding that 99% of the time, you will refuse to acknowledge the facts."<br></blockquote><i>Your</i> facts.&nbsp; <i>You</i> have all the answers, and could not possibly be wrong.<br><br><blockquote>"Unfortunately, I already know what's in your mind, and I don't like it!"<br></blockquote><i>You</i> know what is in <b>my</b> mind, and of course <i>you</i> could not be wrong.<br><br>and you are absolutely certain, with proof, beyond even the shadow of a doubt, that your beliefs could not be wrong, even though they are just that... beliefs.<br><br><br>You either deliberately twist, or just misunderstand about blind faith...<br>Blind faith - when one uses the idea of faith to support a claim that can not be substantiated<br><b>blind faith</b> would be saying that God indeed ordered it... justifying killing with faith... supporting a claim that can not be proven (just as the radical Islamists are using what it says in the quran to justify killing even though there is no way to prove that what is said in the quran is from God)<br>However I say, I am not one to justify anything.&nbsp; If God did indeed order it, then I am not one to call it evil, unless I also want to call God evil.&nbsp; I am not one to judge.&nbsp; I am not one to say blindly that it was ok.&nbsp; According to my own wisdom I can not understand killing and I would always have to argue with God anytime killing was said to be done in His name.&nbsp; But that is me in my own wisdom.&nbsp; It is why I say that I am glad that I do not live by a God who says such things.&nbsp; If that was God in the old testament, then I am fully devoted and grateful to God for the new testament.<br><br><blockquote>"Let me just say this loud and clear: Any person who refuses to admit that killing infants and children is evil is evil as well."<br></blockquote>And you say that you do not argue with God.&nbsp; If God indeed ordered it, then you are arguing with God.&nbsp; By not believing God ordered it, you may very well be arguing with God.<br>You do argue with God.&nbsp; It's just you have more trust in your own wisdom.<br>I am not afraid to say that I argue with God.<br><br>Salaam,<br>CH<br><span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by Caringheart - 05 December 2012 at 7:12pm</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Wed, 05 Dec 2012 18:58:11 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? :  In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent,...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24200&amp;PID=171169#171169</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=53418">islamispeace</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 04 December 2012 at 5:57pm<br /><br />In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />I accept God's will.&nbsp; This does not mean I can not argue with Him about it when I don't understand.&nbsp; <br>Job argued with God and so did Jacob, so did the prophets.</div><br><br>You are nothing more than contradiction personified.&nbsp; It seems your entire spiritual life is struggling to find its way through a maze of circular logic.&nbsp; <br><br>One can't accept God's Will, yet "argue" with Him at the same time.&nbsp; You either accept His Will, even if you don't understand it, or you don't.&nbsp; The best of us, i.e. the prophets, were patient in adversity.&nbsp; Job (pbuh) was one of the most patient.&nbsp; In his adversity, he prayed to God to have mercy on him.&nbsp; He did not complain nor did he "argue".&nbsp; The Quran states this clearly:<br><font color="#333300"><br>"And (remember) Job, when He cried to his Lord, "Truly distress has seized me, but Thou art the Most Merciful of those that are merciful."&nbsp; So We listened to him: We removed the distress that was on him, and We restored his people to him, and doubled their number,- as a Grace from Ourselves, and a thing for commemoration, for all who serve Us." (21:83-84)</font><br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />I <i>believe</i> that God is one.&nbsp; Do I know it of a certainty?&nbsp; Could I end up being wrong?&nbsp; Could the whole Judeo teaching be a made up story?&nbsp; Of course it could.&nbsp; Does Jesus appearance on this earth confirm the stories though?&nbsp; For me, yes, He does.</div>&nbsp; <br><br>More contradictions.&nbsp; You believe that you "could" be wrong, yet you say that Jesus' appearance "confirms the stories"!&nbsp; If the stories are "confirmed", then how can you still insist that you still "could" be wrong?&nbsp; <br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />I understand why you say what you are saying about evil.&nbsp; Thank God it is in the past, the things that were done during the old testament, and thank God we have the new testament.</div><br><br>So, your excuse is "well, it was in the past".&nbsp; "What's done is done".&nbsp; Right?<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />Do you not believe that Lucifer corrupted the creation?&nbsp; Did God know that Lucifer was going to be a fallen angel, that Lucifer would challenge God's supreme being and seek to destroy His creation?</div>&nbsp; <br><br>What the heck does that have to do with the Bible's claim that <u><b>God</b></u> (and <b>NOT </b>Satan) commanded the Israelites to kill infants and children?&nbsp; <br><br>Do I believe that Satan has corrupted mankind?&nbsp; Yes, of course.&nbsp; That explains why the Bible dares implicate the just and good Creator of the universe with pure evil.&nbsp; In short, I believe the Biblical stories of genocide are Satanic lies which were inserted into the Bible after the fact.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />When, and if, you become a parent, you will understand that sometimes they can not be saved.&nbsp; It is not the parent that condemns them, but themselves, if they will not see light.&nbsp; Sometimes there is nothing a parent can do.&nbsp; God allows His children to choose.&nbsp; They must choose.&nbsp; It is the only way.&nbsp; There is no purification if they do not choose the way themselves.</div><br><br>None of this explains why, if God "loved" all of us as a "father", He would not throw us into Hell to burn forever.&nbsp; You tried to compare this to parents who discipline their children, but no parent would think of being the cause of the unending torment of their children.&nbsp; <br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />So you do not have children.&nbsp; Try to apply the analogy then to yourself and your own parents.&nbsp; Can you see that your own disobedience could separate you from your parents, and that if there is no repentance that separation could be permanent?</div>&nbsp; &nbsp; <br><br>Your analogies are nonsense.&nbsp; They are devoid of any logic.&nbsp; You are trying to justify why a "loving" God would punish His "children" for eternity by comparing this to a parent who punishes his/her children.&nbsp; There is no comparison.&nbsp; If a child grows up to be evil, he/she will pay the consequences and the parents may feel mental anguish, but that has nothing to do with God, who is our Creator and Judge, and His relationship to sinners.&nbsp; We are not His "children" in the sense that I am the son of my parents or you are the daughter of your parents.&nbsp; <br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />You think this does not pain God to be separated from His creation.&nbsp; I think it pains Him greatly and this is why He sent His Word to us to try and save us.&nbsp; <b>'He wants all to come to the Word and be saved.'</b>&nbsp; He wants us all to come home.<br></div><br><br>Well, of course He wants us to be saved!&nbsp; But the fact remains that if He loved everyone, including the sinners which He will burn for eternity, then there would be no such place as Hell.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />How do I explain this...<br>Let's see... How about the United States had a terrible time in its history when they bought, sold, and owned people as slaves.&nbsp; Do we not learn from the history that this is a terrible thing?&nbsp; So I would not choose to be loyal to reestablishing such a system.&nbsp; Yet there was still much wisdom in many of the other things which the United States did correctly... like abolishing slavery.<br>Or how about a man named Constantinople came to power and adopted Christianity as his religion and then set out to make that the religion of any nation which he ruled.&nbsp; Do we not learn from that history, that it was wrong?&nbsp; Yet here too, there were surely things gained that were good.<br>How about the Ottoman empire.&nbsp; Was it established rightly?&nbsp; And yet, there was good that came out of that too.<br>There is wisdom in all things, that we learn from the ancient generations.&nbsp; Wisdom of ages.</div>&nbsp; <br><br>You gain "wisdom" from the wise.&nbsp; Similarly, you gain "guidance" from those are guided.&nbsp; One cannot be loyal to something and yet still expect wisdom or guidance from it.&nbsp; That makes no sense.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />I don't feel like going back to it, but if I did... if you will... you will see that you compared Bible scriptures with sunna, not Qur'an.</div><br><br>As I have said before, you know nothing about Islam.&nbsp; You know nothing about the Quran except the lies you have heard from like-minded sources, and you know even less about the Sunnah.&nbsp; If you are too lazy to go back to the previous posts, that is your problem.&nbsp; I quoted from both the Quran and Sunnah.&nbsp; <br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />Not much different than what you believe about Muhammad either.<br><br>Ok, this was as I thought.&nbsp; I was not quoting the qur'an... so not a deliberate misquote as you say.&nbsp; I was expressing in my own words what the qur'an means to me.&nbsp; People must declare belief not just in the one God but also in Muhammad or be considered an enemy of God... a disbeliever... in which case you are instructed to smite their neck as an enemy. (or subjugate them as a second class citizen)</div><br><br>Then you are just a lazy person.&nbsp; You say you have a copy of the Quran at home, yet instead of actually finding the verse you had in mind, you lazily tried to paraphrase it and failed miserably.&nbsp; <br><br>So, what's your excuse now?&nbsp; Despite having been shown the actual verse, you insist on your preconceived view.&nbsp; This is the mark of a blind fool.&nbsp; You are lying only to yourself by persisting in your ignorance and refusal to acknowledge the facts.&nbsp; <br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />I know how you feel about the scripture.&nbsp; What I am pointing out is that the words I use are not my own but the Lords, whether you believe or not.&nbsp; The point was that you wish to say I am making excuses.&nbsp; I am not making excuses.&nbsp; I am following the Word of my Lord.&nbsp; Maybe not your Lord, but mine.</div><br><br>This shows that you are blind.&nbsp; You have confused the word of man with the Word of God.&nbsp; <br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />However I believe your prophet told you that God had spoken to the people of the book and if you were ever in doubt about the scriptures you were to consult them.&nbsp; I speak that Word.</div>&nbsp; <br><br>More misquotes of the Quran.&nbsp; The only explanation now is that you are not lazy; you are just a liar.&nbsp; Good improvement!<br><br>Here is what the Quran actually says:<br><br><font color="#333300">"<u><b>We settled the Children of Israel in a beautiful dwelling-place, and provided for them sustenance of the best</b></u>: it was after knowledge had been granted to them, that they fell into schisms. Verily Allah will judge between them as to the schisms amongst them, on the Day of Judgment.&nbsp; <u><b>If thou wert in doubt as to what We have revealed unto thee, then ask those who have been reading the Book from before thee</b></u>: the Truth hath indeed come to thee from thy Lord: so be in no wise of those in doubt." (10:93-94)</font><br><br>As you can see, the verses were simply saying that if any Muslims have any doubt about the many blessings God poured upon the Jews, that they should ask the Jews themselves.&nbsp; The Quran was not suggesting that Muslims should consult the Jews or Christians about scripture.&nbsp; <br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />f you doubt my word about Job why do you not read the book of Job, as I read the Qur'an and the hadith when I am in doubt.&nbsp; Do your own research.&nbsp; Don't take my word.&nbsp; You must read the book of Job to understand the relationship he had with God.&nbsp; He learned from arguing with God.&nbsp; Just as a child learns from arguing with its parent.</div><br><br>Why should I read to double check your claims about your own scripture?&nbsp; Don't you know your own scripture?&nbsp; You made claim about it, so be ready to support it.&nbsp; My point was that if you were right about Job's complaints against God and his subsequent admonition, it proves you wrong that a true believer can "argue" with God.&nbsp; I was going by what you said. &nbsp; &nbsp; <br><br>By the way, I don't rely on your "research" on Islam.&nbsp; You would be the last source I would consult.&nbsp; I consult sources which give...you know...facts.&nbsp; Do you know what those are? &nbsp;&nbsp; <br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />Vague claims? - easily backed up with a little research on your part.<br>Actually I think being compeled to look for divisions and strife, rather than unity, is where the evil lies.</div><br><br>You really are lazy.&nbsp; You made the claim!&nbsp; You need to back it up!&nbsp; Why would I waste my time going on a wild goose chase?&nbsp; In a discussion, it is typical for both sides to provide evidence for their claims.&nbsp; Otherwise, the discussion will go nowhere.&nbsp; You made a claim, so now back it up.&nbsp; Without evidence, you are just wasting people's time and as a result, no one will take you seriously.&nbsp; So, show a little backbone and support your empty, vague claims with a little thing called evidence!<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />Thanks for showing your respect.</div>&nbsp; <br><br>Get over it.&nbsp; I am not interested in people's personal opinions.&nbsp; I am interested in facts, knowledge and truth.&nbsp; If I wanted to hear mindless droning, I would befriend an air conditioner. <br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />Blind faith(and pride) is having the arrogance to think you have all the answers, and refusing to have the humility to accept that someone else may just be right, and you may be wrong.&nbsp; I am not blind to the fact that we could all be wrong.</div>&nbsp; <br><br>Again, when did I say that I have all the answers?&nbsp; Prove me wrong for once.&nbsp; <br><br>I have said that some answers are already in front of us.&nbsp; They can be found by using one's God-given intellect and common sense.&nbsp; Obviously, you don't use yours too often, at least in matters pertaining to your religion.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />Blind faith - when one uses the idea of faith to support a claim that can not be substantiated</div>&nbsp; <br><br>"Killing babies is evil."&nbsp; You are telling me that this statement cannot be substantiated?&nbsp; I don't know whether to laugh or scream!&nbsp; Your blind refusal to acknowledge evil as evil is both comedic and disturbing at the same time.&nbsp; It's really weird.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />No religious claim can be proven, or substantiated, beyond a shadow of a doubt.&nbsp; This is why we must accept the beliefs of others... because it is just that... belief.</div><br><br>The central theme of this thread is not a "religious claim".&nbsp; Let me just say this loud and clear: <b>Any person who refuses to admit that killing infants and children is evil is evil as well.</b><br><br>Take that any way you want.&nbsp; <br><span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by islamispeace - 04 December 2012 at 6:04pm</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Tue, 04 Dec 2012 17:57:45 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? :  Originally posted by islamispeace Originally...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24200&amp;PID=171165#171165</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=67758">Mahdi The Seeke</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 04 December 2012 at 5:33pm<br /><br /> <div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by islamispeace</strong></em><br /><br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by bunter</strong></em><br /><br />I think this might be a case of YOU know best. Let me ask you about just two of many such verses in the Quran.<br /><br /><em><strong>Q4:56</strong> We shall send those who reject Our revelations to the Fire. When their skins have been burned away We shall replace them with new ones so that they may continue to feel the pain. God is mighty and wise.<br /><br /><strong>Q18:29</strong> Say, Now the truth has come from your Lord let those who wish to believe in it do so and let those who wish to reject it do so. We have prepared a Fire for the wrongdoers that will envelop them from all sides. If they call for relief they will be relieved with water like molten metal scalding their faces. What a terrible drink. What a pain&#64257;il resting place.</em><br /><br />Now, surely a good God would know that burning off a person's skin and then replacing it to be burned off again with the only relief being water as hot as molten metal thrown in your face for all eternity must be worse thing anyone can think of, to use your words a monstrous crime? How do you feel about the verses, will you rejoice in them, be happy that such punishments exists?</div>This is the best you guys can do.  Try to change the topic and talk about something completely unrelated.  What on earth does the punishment of Hellfire for those who deserve it due to the conscious choice they made have to do with killing babies, who represent everything that is innocent?  Do you realize how desperate you sound in trying to justify what any rational, God-fearing person would rightfully denounce as pure evil?  Why is it so hard for you to denounce evil?  Let me submit to you the same statements I posed to Caringheart.  Let me know if you agree or disagree:<font size="2">1.  God is good.2.  God is not evil.3.  God commands good.4.  God does not command evil.5.  Charity is good.6.  God commands charity.7.  Killing babies is evil.8.  God does not command killing babies.</font>This is not a brain-teaser.  These statements are not philosophical dilemmas.  They are not even moral dilemmas...at least not to normal, rational people.  I guess that does not include you guys.   </div> <br /> <img src="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/smileys/smiley32.gif" border="0" align="middle" /> ]]>
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   <pubDate>Tue, 04 Dec 2012 17:33:48 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? :  Originally posted by islamispeace Originally...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24200&amp;PID=171164#171164</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=67758">Mahdi The Seeke</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 04 December 2012 at 5:23pm<br /><br /> <div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by islamispeace</strong></em><br /><br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br /><br /><br />Greetings islamispeace,I think the point Bunter is making is that if you wish to call God of the old testament evil for the things that are in the old testament, all you have to do is look to your own scriptures to find an evil God.Do you believe in the surah's which Bunter quoted?Do these things sound like things of a good and loving, merciful God, to you?Don't they sound a bit like the God of the old testament?Salaam,CH<br /></div>What Bunter was trying to do, like you, was to try to change the subject and move away from the uncomfortable topic of Biblically-sanctioned genocide.  Moreover, comparing the killing of babies to the punishment of sinners who had every chance to repent and mend their ways is laughably absurd.  In fact, I would think that baby-killers would be among the eternally damned!  Punishing such people is not "evil".  It is justice.  On the other hand, killing children and infants is nothing but pure evil.  There is no logical way to justify such evil.  By the way, the Jesus of the "New Covenant" promises eternal damnation to unbelievers as well.</div> <br />could not have said it any better myself. i hope they will take time to think and understand. ]]>
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   <pubDate>Tue, 04 Dec 2012 17:23:09 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? :   Originally posted by Caringheart  Greetings...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24200&amp;PID=171160#171160</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=53418">islamispeace</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 04 December 2012 at 4:35pm<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />Greetings islamispeace,<br><br>I think the point Bunter is making is that if you wish to call God of the old testament evil for the things that are in the old testament, all you have to do is look to your own scriptures to find an evil God.<br><br>Do you believe in the surah's which Bunter quoted?<br>Do these things sound like things of a good and loving, merciful God, to you?<br>Don't they sound a bit like the God of the old testament?<br><br>Salaam,<br>CH<br></div><br><br>What Bunter was trying to do, like you, was to try to change the subject and move away from the uncomfortable topic of Biblically-sanctioned genocide.&nbsp; Moreover, comparing the killing of babies to the punishment of sinners who had every chance to repent and mend their ways is laughably absurd.&nbsp; In fact, I would think that baby-killers would be among the eternally damned!&nbsp; Punishing such people is not "evil".&nbsp; It is justice.&nbsp; On the other hand, killing children and infants is nothing but pure evil.&nbsp; There is no logical way to justify such evil.&nbsp; <br><br>By the way, the Jesus of the "New Covenant" promises eternal damnation to unbelievers as well. <br>]]>
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   <pubDate>Tue, 04 Dec 2012 16:35:39 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? :    for Hasan,3And hereby we...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24200&amp;PID=171159#171159</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=69566">Caringheart</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 04 December 2012 at 3:58pm<br /><br /><p><span id="en-KJV-30554" ="text="" 1john-2-3"=""><sup ="versenum"=""><font size="2">for Hasan,</font><br></sup></span></p><p><span id="en-KJV-30554" ="text="" 1john-2-3"=""><sup ="versenum"="">3&nbsp;</sup><b>And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.</b></span></p> <p><b><span id="en-KJV-30555" ="text="" 1john-2-4"=""><sup ="versenum"="">4&nbsp;</sup><b>He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.</b></span></b></p><p><span id="en-KJV-30555" ="text="" 1john-2-4"="">&#091;for clarification I would add here not so much that people are liars as in a deliberate act, so much as they may be self deceived.&nbsp; They</span><b><span id="en-KJV-30555" ="text="" 1john-2-4"=""><b> </b></span></b><span id="en-KJV-30555" ="text="" 1john-2-4"="">may think they belong to God but if they are not keeping His commandments then they do not belong to God no matter how much they may think that they do.&nbsp; There are many who are blind to this Truth.&#093;</span><b><span id="en-KJV-30555" ="text="" 1john-2-4"=""><b><br></b></span></b></p> <p><span id="en-KJV-30556" ="text="" 1john-2-5"=""><sup ="versenum"="">5&nbsp;</sup>But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.</span></p> <p><span id="en-KJV-30557" ="text="" 1john-2-6"=""><sup ="versenum"="">6&nbsp;</sup>He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.</span></p> <p><span id="en-KJV-30558" ="text="" 1john-2-7"=""><sup ="versenum"="">7&nbsp;</sup><b>Brethren, I write no new commandment unto you, but an old commandment which ye had from the beginning. The old commandment is the word which ye have heard from the beginning.</b></span></p> <p><span id="en-KJV-30559" ="text="" 1john-2-8"=""><sup ="versenum"="">8 </sup>But, a new commandment which I do write unto you, which thing is true in him and in you: because the darkness is past, and the true light now shineth.</span></p> <p><span id="en-KJV-30560" ="text="" 1john-2-9"=""><sup ="versenum"="">9&nbsp;</sup>He that saith he is in the light, and hateth his brother, is in darkness even until now.</span></p> <p><span id="en-KJV-30561" ="text="" 1john-2-10"=""><sup ="versenum"="">10&nbsp;</sup>He that loveth his brother abideth in the light, and there is none occasion of stumbling in him.</span></p> <p><span id="en-KJV-30562" ="text="" 1john-2-11"=""><sup ="versenum"="">11&nbsp;</sup>But he that hateth his brother is in darkness, and walketh in darkness, and knoweth not whither he goeth, because that darkness hath blinded his eyes.&nbsp; </span><font size="1">(1 John 2) <font size="1"><br></font></font></p><p><font size="1"><font size="1">____________________<font size="1">_</font></font></font></p><p>There was the physical law - the law of rituals<br>and the spiritual law<br>If you do some study on Judaism it explains this much better than I can.<br>Jesus abolished the law of sacrifice.&nbsp; He showed that clean and unclean has not to do with ritual but with what is in the heart.&nbsp; He regularly revealed that the Pharisees, though they followed the letter of the law, were unclean because their hearts were far from God.<br>If one belongs to God He naturally follows the spiritual laws of God.</p><p>This is why it is so important to know all of the scriptures and not just part.&nbsp; Full understanding can not come unless you know the whole of scripture.<br></p><p><font size="1"><font size="1"></font>Salaam.<br></font></p><span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by Caringheart - 04 December 2012 at 4:15pm</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Tue, 04 Dec 2012 15:58:04 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? :  Originally posted by CaringheartGreetings...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24200&amp;PID=171156#171156</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=59438">honeto</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 04 December 2012 at 3:36pm<br /><br /> <div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br /><br />Greetings Hasan,"man, woman, infant..."gotcha.  Thanks.  I guess I just got hung up because islamispeace kept referring to 'sucklings'.Yes.  God did say to destroy them all.  I did know that.  That is why I shared that I do not know of anyone who follows Jesus who does not have difficulty with the things that went on in old testament times, and that is why they do not follow the old covenant, but the new one... Jesus.Salaam,CH<br /><br /><br /></div> <br /><br />CAringheart,<br />...because I see and believe that people naturally have common sense and this God given natural ability to distinguish between right and wrong works if put to work, with some guidance from above.<br />The Bible, both OT and NT has been together for over a thousand years I guess, taught as revelation from same God. It is difficult for anyone with logic and reason to accept when we are told that the source of OT and NT is the same God. <br />It does not match it does not fit.  On top of that, we see verse quoted to Jesus, saying that every bit of the law (contained in the OT) has to be fulfilled while others claim that Jesus came to do away with it, a true dilemma but not the only issue between the two (OT and NT)<br />Hasan<span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by honeto - 04 December 2012 at 3:37pm</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Tue, 04 Dec 2012 15:36:57 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? :   Greetings islamispeace,I accept...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=69566">Caringheart</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 03 December 2012 at 9:41pm<br /><br />Greetings islamispeace,<br><br>I accept God's will.&nbsp; This does not mean I can not argue with Him about it when I don't understand.&nbsp; <br>Job argued with God and so did Jacob, so did the prophets.<br><br>I <i>believe</i> that God is one.&nbsp; Do I know it of a certainty?&nbsp; Could I end up being wrong?&nbsp; Could the whole Judeo teaching be a made up story?&nbsp; Of course it could.&nbsp; Does Jesus appearance on this earth confirm the stories though?&nbsp; For me, yes, He does.<br><br>I understand why you say what you are saying about evil.&nbsp; Thank God it is in the past, the things that were done during the old testament, and thank God we have the new testament.<br><br>Do you not believe that Lucifer corrupted the creation?&nbsp; Did God know that Lucifer was going to be a fallen angel, that Lucifer would challenge God's supreme being and seek to destroy His creation?<br><br>When, and if, you become a parent, you will understand that sometimes they can not be saved.&nbsp; It is not the parent that condemns them, but themselves, if they will not see light.&nbsp; Sometimes there is nothing a parent can do.&nbsp; God allows His children to choose.&nbsp; They must choose.&nbsp; It is the only way.&nbsp; There is no purification if they do not choose the way themselves.&nbsp; <br>So you do not have children.&nbsp; Try to apply the analogy then to yourself and your own parents.&nbsp; Can you see that your own disobedience could separate you from your parents, and that if there is no repentance that separation could be permanent?<br>You think this does not pain God to be separated from His creation.&nbsp; I think it pains Him greatly and this is why He sent His Word to us to try and save us.&nbsp; <b>'He wants all to come to the Word and be saved.'</b>&nbsp; He wants us all to come home.<br><br><blockquote>"If I am not loyal to my country, then how could I learn or receive any guidance from it?"<br></blockquote>How do I explain this...<br>Let's see... How about the United States had a terrible time in its history when they bought, sold, and owned people as slaves.&nbsp; Do we not learn from the history that this is a terrible thing?&nbsp; So I would not choose to be loyal to reestablishing such a system.&nbsp; Yet there was still much wisdom in many of the other things which the United States did correctly... like abolishing slavery.<br>Or how about a man named Constantinople came to power and adopted Christianity as his religion and then set out to make that the religion of any nation which he ruled.&nbsp; Do we not learn from that history, that it was wrong?&nbsp; Yet here too, there were surely things gained that were good.<br>How about the Ottoman empire.&nbsp; Was it established rightly?&nbsp; And yet, there was good that came out of that too.<br>There is wisdom in all things, that we learn from the ancient generations.&nbsp; Wisdom of ages.<br><br>I don't feel like going back to it, but if I did... if you will... you will see that you compared Bible scriptures with sunna, not Qur'an.<br><br>Not much different than what you believe about Muhammad either.<br><br>Ok, this was as I thought.&nbsp; I was not quoting the qur'an... so not a deliberate misquote as you say.&nbsp; I was expressing in my own words what the qur'an means to me.&nbsp; People must declare belief not just in the one God but also in Muhammad or be considered an enemy of God... a disbeliever... in which case you are instructed to smite their neck as an enemy. (or subjugate them as a second class citizen)<br><br>I know how you feel about the scripture.&nbsp; What I am pointing out is that the words I use are not my own but the Lords, whether you believe or not.&nbsp; The point was that you wish to say I am making excuses.&nbsp; I am not making excuses.&nbsp; I am following the Word of my Lord.&nbsp; Maybe not your Lord, but mine.&nbsp; However I believe your prophet told you that God had spoken to the people of the book and if you were ever in doubt about the scriptures you were to consult them.&nbsp; I speak that Word.<br><br>If you doubt my word about Job why do you not read the book of Job, as I read the Qur'an and the hadith when I am in doubt.&nbsp; Do your own research.&nbsp; Don't take my word.&nbsp; You must read the book of Job to understand the relationship he had with God.&nbsp; He learned from arguing with God.&nbsp; Just as a child learns from arguing with its parent.<br><br>Vague claims? - easily backed up with a little research on your part.<br>Actually I think being compeled to look for divisions and strife, rather than unity, is where the evil lies.<br><br><blockquote>"Your views and opinions mean nothing to me."<br></blockquote>Thanks for showing your respect.<br><br><br>Blind faith(and pride) is having the arrogance to think you have all the answers, and refusing to have the humility to accept that someone else may just be right, and you may be wrong.&nbsp; I am not blind to the fact that we could all be wrong.<br><br>&nbsp;Blind faith - when one uses the idea of faith to support a claim that can not be substantiated<br><br>No religious claim can be proven, or substantiated, beyond a shadow of a doubt.&nbsp; This is why we must accept the beliefs of others... because it is just that... belief.<br><br>Salaam,<br>CH<br><span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by Caringheart - 03 December 2012 at 9:49pm</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Mon, 03 Dec 2012 21:41:15 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? :   Greetings islamispeace,I think...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24200&amp;PID=171096#171096</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=69566">Caringheart</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 03 December 2012 at 8:08pm<br /><br />Greetings islamispeace,<br><br>I think the point Bunter is making is that if you wish to call God of the old testament evil for the things that are in the old testament, all you have to do is look to your own scriptures to find an evil God.<br><br>Do you believe in the surah's which Bunter quoted?<br>Do these things sound like things of a good and loving, merciful God, to you?<br>Don't they sound a bit like the God of the old testament?<br><br>Salaam,<br>CH<br><span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by Caringheart - 03 December 2012 at 8:09pm</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Mon, 03 Dec 2012 20:08:45 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? : In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent,...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24200&amp;PID=171095#171095</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=53418">islamispeace</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 03 December 2012 at 8:00pm<br /><br />In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...<br><br>Caringheart, it seems you are getting desperate in continuing to justify your refusal to denounce evil, so you are now refusing to respond to all my points, and instead making excuses.&nbsp; I think you are planning to make a break for it and quietly bow out of this discussion.&nbsp; However, I will still respond to all your points, because that's the kind of guy I am!<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />Thanks for sharing.&nbsp; My replies will become shorter and shorter so that we do not just keep going over and over the same things. <img src="http://www.islamicity.com/forum/smileys/smiley1.gif" border="0" align="absmiddle" alt="Smile" /></div><br><br>Yep, that's the typical last resort of aperson left with no more excuses and no more logical arguments.&nbsp; <img src="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/smileys/smiley4.gif" border="0" align="absmiddle" alt="Big%20smile" /><br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br /><blockquote>RE:&nbsp; "infant and suckling ox and sheep camel and ass"<br></blockquote>I'd say that since it goes from talking about humans to animals it could easily mean suckling pig.&nbsp; It is not precisely clear is it?&nbsp; It is not only just now dawning on me.&nbsp; I have read the scripture before.&nbsp; I took it to mean suckling pig since that is the way pigs were most frequently referred to in the scriptures.</div><br><br>I'd say you have run out of excuses and are finding it increasingly difficult to defend the Biblical slaughter of babies.&nbsp; No, they were not "suckling pigs".&nbsp; That's a new one to me!&nbsp; Brother Hasan has already refuted this nonsensical statement.&nbsp; Allow me to refute it further.&nbsp; Here are some more verses which prove without a doubt that the command was to kill all humans (in all cases) and animals (in some cases):<br><br><font color="#000099"><font color="#000099"><span id="en-NIV-4971">When Sihon and all his army came out to meet us in battle at Jahaz,</span> <span id="en-NIV-4972"><sup>33&nbsp;</sup>the <span style="font-variant: small-caps">Lord</span> our God delivered him over to us and we struck him down, together with his sons and his whole army.</span> <span id="en-NIV-4973"><sup>34<u><b>&nbsp;</b></u></sup><u><b>At that time we took all his towns and completely destroyed them—men, women and children</b></u>. We left no survivors.</span> </font></font><span id="en-NIV-4974"><font color="#000099"><sup>35&nbsp;</sup><u><b>But the livestock and the plunder from the towns we had captured we carried off for ourselves</b></u>. (Deuteronomy 2:32-34) <font color="#000000">- Notice here that the animals were not killed but instead taken as plunder!<br></font></font></span><br><span id="en-NIV-4974"><font color="#000099"><font color="#000000"><font color="#0000FF">He also put to the sword Nob, the town of the priests, with its men and women, <u><b>its children and infants, and its cattle, donkeys and sheep</b></u>. (1 Samuel 22:19)</font> - Now here, everything living things was killed.&nbsp; Notice that the children and infants of Nob were among those killed!&nbsp; </font><br><br></font></span><font color="#0000FF"><span id="en-NIV-16231" ="text Ps-137-8">Daughter Babylon, doomed to destruction,</span><span ="indent-1"><span ="indent-1-breaks"> </span><span ="text Ps-137-8">happy is the one who repays you</span></span><span ="indent-1"><span ="indent-1-breaks"> </span><span ="text Ps-137-8">according to what you have done to us.</span></span><span id="en-NIV-16232" ="text Ps-137-9"><sup>&nbsp; </sup><u><b>Happy is the one who seizes your infants</b></u></span><span ="indent-1"><u><b><span ="indent-1-breaks"> </span></b></u><span ="text Ps-137-9"><u><b>and dashes them against the rocks</b></u>.</span></span> (Psalm 137:8-9)</font> - Even you should see that this lovely psalm is not talking about dashing suckling pigs on rocks (as inhumane as that would be)!<br><br>It keeps getting worse for you, doesn't it?&nbsp; That is what happens when people lie to others and to themselves.&nbsp; As the Blue Fairy said to Pinocchio:<br><br><i><b>"<span ="st">A lie keeps growing and growing until it's as plain as the nose on your face.</span>"</b></i><br><br>How long will you keep lying to yourself?<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />How else will I come to understand God if I do not argue with Him?<br>Why do you argue with me?&nbsp; Is it not for better understanding?</div><br><br>Tell me, in your scintillating "arguments" with God, does He answer you back?&nbsp; Are you sure you are not just arguing with yourself?<br><br>A true believer, a man/woman of faith, does not "argue" with God.&nbsp; We accept God's will, even if we don't understand it.&nbsp; However, God has taught us that He loves good and despises evil.&nbsp; He has also given us the criteria to distinguish between good and evil, so that we can identify what is God's will and what is not His will, but the will of men.&nbsp; Charity is the will of God.&nbsp; Selfishness is not.&nbsp; Protecting the innocent is God's will.&nbsp; Killing them is not.&nbsp; Do you see the difference?&nbsp; You don't need to argue with God about something that does not need arguing.&nbsp; Moreover, you should not be arguing with Him in the first place!&nbsp; Who are you to argue with the Lord and Master of the Universe?&nbsp; Talk about pride!<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />But you will <u>not</u> know the truth until you meet your Maker.&nbsp; That is an absolute truth.&nbsp; None of us will know of a certainty, the truth, until we meet our Maker.</div>&nbsp; <br><br>We will not know the truth of every matter until we meet God.&nbsp; I wonder how big the universes is.&nbsp; I don't anyone will ever know.&nbsp; But, I hope to find out when I meet God.&nbsp; <br><br>However, there are some truths that we already know.&nbsp; We know that God is One.&nbsp; Do you agree?&nbsp; We know that giving charity is good.&nbsp; Do you agree? <br><br>Similarly, we know that some things are evil.&nbsp; The Holocaust was evil.&nbsp; Do you agree?&nbsp; Killing babies is evil.&nbsp; Do you...well you know.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />Are there not some who can not be saved?&nbsp; Are there not those who in the end satan will win for his own?<br>Men have free will to choose, and if they do not choose God then God can not save them as His own.&nbsp; This by no means diminishes the pain of loss.</div> &nbsp; <br><br>It seems that God is simply choosing not to save them, even though He easily could.&nbsp; To argue that He would feel pain for something He could stop in an instant is absurd.&nbsp; If He knew from the very beginning that so many would reject Him, why did He create us?&nbsp; Wouldn't it have been better if He simply had not created those who would become sinners and end up in Hell?<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />Let me ask... Do you love your children... assuming that you have any... if not, did your parents love you?&nbsp; Do you not punish your children... or did your parents punish you?&nbsp; Is it unloving to do so, or are you trying to assert any means to get your children onto a right path?&nbsp; Would it be loving to never discipline your children and allow them to go their own way, without warning them that there would be consequences, some which are irreversible?&nbsp; Would it not hurt to lose them to satan in spite of all your efforts?&nbsp; Do you see that this can happen?<br>God gives every chance to choose Him, but if we do not belong to Him can He allow us to enter into heaven, the purest of places?&nbsp; Can a corrupt thing enter into purity?&nbsp; Or must a corrupt thing go to be where corruption is.</div> <br><br>Do you think before you come up with these ridiculous analogies?&nbsp; Disciplining one's children (I don't have kids by the way) is a far cry from the <u><b>eternal</b></u> torment all sinners will face in the Hell.&nbsp; The purpose of discipline is to get children on the right path, but it is by no means continuous and unending.&nbsp; What parent would keep their child in unending torment?&nbsp; I certainly hope you don't put your absurd analogy to practice, assuming you have children.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />This is not a contradiction.&nbsp; <b>"All scripture is useful for learning."&nbsp;</b> We learn from the old testament but we live by the new testament.<br><i>16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness</i></div><br><br>It is a contradiction because on the one hand you say that you owe no allegiance to the "Old Covenant", but then you say that you receive guidance from both the Old and New Covenants.&nbsp; <br><br>If I am not loyal to my country, then how could I learn or receive any guidance from it?&nbsp; <br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />So you were not comparing quran with Bible scriptures.</div>&nbsp; <br><br>Do you know how to read?&nbsp; I compared the bible with the two central sources of Islamic beliefs, the Quran and the Sunnah.&nbsp; <br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />Your comparison with the holocaust is absurd since that was without question the act of a human.</div><br><br>Wrong.&nbsp; It was the act of a human <u><b>who believed he was doing God's work</b></u>!&nbsp; Hitler was convinced that he had a divine mission.&nbsp; That is not much different from what you believe about Moses and his successors.&nbsp; According to you, they were simply doing God's Will.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />Where did I misquote the quran?</div><br><br>Here is one example. You said in one of your posts:<br><br><font color="#0000FF">"<b>And the quran instructs to smite the necks of all unbelievers(anyone who will not take the shahada, anyone who does not believe in Muhammad, even though they believe in the One God)</b>, this is no different that the Israelites being commanded to kill all the Canaanites, classifying them all as pagan idolators(i.e., as evil people)... same thing.&nbsp; Islam views anyone non-muslim the same way the Israelites were told to treat the Canaanites.&nbsp; Old covenant ways vs. new covenant ways.&nbsp; Islam ignores the 'new thing' which God brought."</font><br><br>I refuted this misquote by showing what the Quran actually says, which is:<br><br><font color="#333300">"Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), smite at their necks; At length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them):<u><b> thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens</b></u>. Thus (are ye commanded): but if it had been Allah's Will, He could certainly have exacted retribution from them (Himself); but (He lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the Way of Allah,- He will never let their deeds be lost." (47:4)</font><br><br>Conclusion: You misquoted, either deliberately or due to your ignorance, the Quran.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />I realized last night that you are probably not aware that alot of what I say comes straight from scripture so I am going to try to go back through my posts so that you will know which statements are not my own but words from God Himself.&nbsp; It is Job who argues with God and God who admonishes Him... '<b>Do you have the mind of God, did you create the universe'? </b>&#091;this is my paraphrase&#093;</div><br><br>I could care less what your "scripture" says.&nbsp; I don't regard those books as being "scripture".&nbsp; I certainly don't regard the verses talking about slaughtering babies to be "scripture".<br><br>Moreover, if what you say about Job is true, then it only proves my point about your blasphemous claim that you "argue" with God.&nbsp; If Job was admonished for arguing with God, who are you to argue with Him?<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />Sorry, I just do not put the time into these posts that I used to.&nbsp; As I said, I just don't have the time and energy for it.&nbsp; I speak from memory.<br>I come to the forums for conversation, not tit for tat, but an exchange of ideas... a further seeking.&nbsp; I want to know the minds of people.<br></div>&nbsp; <br><br>Unfortunately, I already know what's in your mind, and I don't like it!<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />As I am reading what you wrote some problems that I have...<br>1.&nbsp; there is no clear muslim history... there are differing testimonies of what happened with the treaty between Mecca and Medina.<br>2.&nbsp; why do you insist on comparisons?&nbsp; How is it beneficial?</div><br><br>1.&nbsp; More vague claims with no supporting evidence.<br>2.&nbsp; It helps us to distinguish between the truth and falsehood, between good and evil and between the Word of God and the word of man.&nbsp; I'd say that is immensely beneficial!<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />Sorry, but no, you have proved nothing to me, any more than I have 'proved' anything to you.&nbsp; You share with me what you believe, I do my own research into what you say, and reach my own conclusions.&nbsp; I think I have done more thorough research than you have.&nbsp; I think you speak from what you have been taught.&nbsp; I could be wrong though.<br>Do you ever look into the things that others share with you?&nbsp; I do.</div>&nbsp; <br><br>Your views and opinions mean nothing to me.&nbsp; My hope is that other people who read these posts will benefit.&nbsp; When I talk with people like you, it is with the understanding that 99% of the time, you will refuse to acknowledge the facts.&nbsp; I still talk, however, so that others who may be more open to the facts will benefit from reading our conversations, inshaAllah.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />Now as far as belief goes...<br><br>I don't think that I could be wrong... <br>I know that I could be wrong...<br>that's why it's called Faith.&nbsp; <img src="http://www.islamicity.com/forum/smileys/smiley1.gif" border="0" align="absmiddle" alt="Smile" /></div><br><br>Actually, that is called Blind Faith.&nbsp; <img src="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif" border="0" align="absmiddle" alt="Wink" /><br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br /><b>“For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been His counselor?”<br>"Who has known the mind of the Lord<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; so as to instruct him?”</b><br>(these are spoken in Isaiah, Job, Jeremiah)</div><br><font color="#336600"><br></font><font color="#336600"><font color="#336600">"And remember We gave Moses the Scripture and the criterion (Between right and wrong): There was a chance for you to be guided aright." (2:53)</font><br><br></font><font color="#336600"><font color="#336600">"O ye who believe! if ye fear Allah, He will grant you a criterion (to judge between right and wrong), remove from you (all) evil (that may afflict) you, and forgive you: for Allah is the Lord of grace unbounded.&nbsp;<span ="QuranSmall"></span>" (8:29)<br><br></font></font><font color="#336600"><font color="#336600"><font color="#336600">"Behold this is the Word that distinguishes (Good from Evil): It is not a thing for amusement." (17:13-14)</font></font><br><br>"Nor can goodness and evil be equal. Repel (evil) with what is better: Then will he between whom and thee was hatred become as it were thy friend and intimate!<span ="QuranSmall"></span>" (41:34)</font><br><font color="#336600"></font><br>These are spoken by God in the Quran.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />Do we then, place ourselves higher than God in understanding?&nbsp; It is arrogance to say that we know, without question, the mind of God.&nbsp; How do you think God will look upon this arrogance come judgement day?</div><br><br>He will not look upon it as "arrogance" but as rationality, inshaAllah.&nbsp; He will commend us for using our common sense, which He gave us, inshaAllah.&nbsp; And He will reward us for using His Word to distinguish between good and evil, inshaAllah.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />I am curious, can you tell me what the quran teaches about pride?</div><br><font color="#336600"><br>"</font><font color="#336600">Is then the man who believes no better than the man who is rebellious and wicked? Not equal are they." (32:18)<br><br>"They say, "If we return to Medina, surely the more honourable (element) will expel therefrom the meaner."<u><b> But honour belongs to Allah and His Messenger, and to the Believers</b></u>; but the Hypocrites know not." (63:8)</font><br><br>I am proud of my faith in Allah (swt).&nbsp; There is nothing wrong with that.&nbsp; In fact, being timid about my faith would be wrong.&nbsp; It is only in worldly matters that pride is a sin.&nbsp; Hence, pride in one's wealth, family or influence is sinful. &nbsp;&nbsp; <br><br>&nbsp; <br><br>]]>
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   <pubDate>Mon, 03 Dec 2012 20:00:43 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? :   Originally posted by bunterI...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24200&amp;PID=171092#171092</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=53418">islamispeace</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 03 December 2012 at 6:51pm<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by bunter</strong></em><br /><br />I think this might be a case of YOU know best. Let me ask you about just two of many such verses in the Quran.<br><br><em><strong>Q4:56</strong> We shall send those who reject Our revelations to the Fire. When their skins have been burned away We shall replace them with new ones so that they may continue to feel the pain. God is mighty and wise.<br><br><strong>Q18:29</strong> Say, Now the truth has come from your Lord let those who wish to believe in it do so and let those who wish to reject it do so. We have prepared a Fire for the wrongdoers that will envelop them from all sides. If they call for relief they will be relieved with water like molten metal scalding their faces. What a terrible drink. What a pain&#64257;il resting place.</em><br><br>Now, surely a good God would know that burning off a person's skin and then replacing it to be burned off again with the only relief being water as hot as molten metal thrown in your face for all eternity must be worse thing anyone can think of, to use your words a monstrous crime? How do you feel about the verses, will you rejoice in them, be happy that such punishments exists?</div><br><br>This is the best you guys can do.&nbsp; Try to change the topic and talk about something completely unrelated.&nbsp; What on earth does the punishment of Hellfire for those who deserve it due to the conscious choice they made have to do with killing babies, who represent everything that is innocent?&nbsp; Do you realize how desperate you sound in trying to justify what any rational, God-fearing person would rightfully denounce as pure evil?&nbsp; <br><br>Why is it so hard for you to denounce evil?&nbsp; Let me submit to you the same statements I posed to Caringheart.&nbsp; Let me know if you agree or disagree:<br><br><font size="2">1.&nbsp; God is good.<br><br>2.&nbsp; God is not evil.<br><br>3.&nbsp; God commands good.<br><br>4.&nbsp; God does not command evil.<br><br>5.&nbsp; Charity is good.<br><br>6.&nbsp; God commands charity.<br><br>7.&nbsp; Killing babies is evil.<br><br>8.&nbsp; God does not command killing babies.</font><br><br>This is not a brain-teaser.&nbsp; These statements are not philosophical dilemmas.&nbsp; They are not even moral dilemmas...at least not to normal, rational people.&nbsp; I guess that does not include you guys. &nbsp;&nbsp; <br>]]>
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   <pubDate>Mon, 03 Dec 2012 18:51:39 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? :  Greetings Hasan,&amp;#034;man, woman,...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=69566">Caringheart</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 03 December 2012 at 4:32pm<br /><br />Greetings Hasan,<br>"man, woman, infant..."<br>gotcha.&nbsp; Thanks.&nbsp; I guess I just got hung up because islamispeace kept referring to 'sucklings'.<br>Yes.&nbsp; God did say to destroy them all.&nbsp; I did know that.&nbsp; That is why I shared that I do not know of anyone who follows Jesus who does not have difficulty with the things that went on in old testament times, and that is why they do not follow the old covenant, but the new one... Jesus.<br>Salaam,<br>CH<br><span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by Caringheart - 03 December 2012 at 4:36pm</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Mon, 03 Dec 2012 16:32:50 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? : Carinheart,it is very clear according...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=59438">honeto</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 03 December 2012 at 11:41am<br /><br />Carinheart,<br />it is very clear according to the way it is written what it means. Don't try to change that as you wish to see it any other way.<br />1 Samuel 15:3<br />Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.<br />I have never heard of animal babies addressed as infants have you?<br />Here is a similar example from the Bible, Moses is suppose to be narrator of this one!<br />Deut :2:34 And we took all his cities at that time, and utterly destroyed the men, and the women, and the little ones, of every city, we left none to remain:<br /><br />Boy, many wish if they could see a rewriting of the Bible again!<br />Hasan<br />]]>
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   <pubDate>Mon, 03 Dec 2012 11:41:27 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? :  Originally posted by bunter Originally...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=59438">honeto</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 03 December 2012 at 11:23am<br /><br /> <div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by bunter</strong></em><br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by honeto</strong></em><br /><br />Bunter, by the way what lessons do you learn from those stories, and who declared that those are not to be followed, and if they are so bad, why are they there in the first place. According to your guys, Jesus is "love" and that he was with the father since the beginning so what was going on then, as these acts were actually quoted to have been directed by God as commands! And did not Jesus in the NT is quoted to have said that every iota of the law has to be fulfilled. And that he did not come to abolish but to fulfill, didn't he? Oh my..!Hasan</div>Some points.<br />1. No one 'decides', it is just that is the way it is generally interpreted. I might ask you - who interprets the Quran?<br /><br />2. Any event where judgement occurs is bad and meant to bring us sorrow - unless you are of the persuasion that we should rejoice and be glad when we see someone on their way to hell? How do you feel about the medina massacre by your prophet - do you feel glad about it, do you feel it was a good thing to happen?<br /><br />3. You are sadly mistaken if you think that because killings occurred in the Bible that they then become a law for all time - that might be the Islamic way, but it is neither Jewish or Christian nor logical.<br /><br />4. You seem to have a clear view on what is bad, so take a look at Q4:56 and Q18:29 where Allah one presumes <strong>burns off skins</strong> and then replaces them so they can be burned off again and the only relief from this with water like <strong>molten metal thrown</strong> in their faces for all eternity - is that good or bad? <br /><br />If we are to understand each other faith we have to be honest about it.<br /><br /></div> <br />bunter,<br />and that's where you lack, honesty.<br />Of course the punishment of hell is real, and there is no doubt about it. How it is described is to be taken as such. <br />But, if you missed that's not we are talking about, we are talking about God of OT and God of NT, they not only seem to be different, they seem to be sky a part, the difference between night and day. I am told by Christians that "God is love", like a parrot they repeat it, when asked to differentiate they cannot. <br />You understand what we are talking about and I know your actual position, you just cannot defend it, so you try to  your best to distract.<br />Please go back and read my pearlier posts and try to address the issue with your Bible, if you have issues with Islam or Quran put them up in their appropriate thread, don't make them escape goats here.<br />Hasan]]>
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   <pubDate>Mon, 03 Dec 2012 11:23:51 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? : Greetings islamispeace,Thanks...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=69566">Caringheart</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 02 December 2012 at 8:50pm<br /><br />Greetings islamispeace,<br><br>Thanks for sharing.&nbsp; My replies will become shorter and shorter so that we do not just keep going over and over the same things. <img src="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/smileys/smiley1.gif" border="0" align="absmiddle" alt="Smile" /><br><blockquote>RE:&nbsp; "infant and suckling ox and sheep camel and ass"<br></blockquote>I'd say that since it goes from talking about humans to animals it could easily mean suckling pig.&nbsp; It is not precisely clear is it?&nbsp; It is not only just now dawning on me.&nbsp; I have read the scripture before.&nbsp; I took it to mean suckling pig since that is the way pigs were most frequently referred to in the scriptures.<br><br><br>How else will I come to understand God if I do not argue with Him?<br>Why do you argue with me?&nbsp; Is it not for better understanding?<br><br>But you will <u>not</u> know the truth until you meet your Maker.&nbsp; That is an absolute truth.&nbsp; None of us will know of a certainty, the truth, until we meet our Maker.<br><br>Are there not some who can not be saved?&nbsp; Are there not those who in the end satan will win for his own?<br>Men have free will to choose, and if they do not choose God then God can not save them as His own.&nbsp; This by no means diminishes the pain of loss.<br><br>Let me ask... Do you love your children... assuming that you have any... if not, did your parents love you?&nbsp; Do you not punish your children... or did your parents punish you?&nbsp; Is it unloving to do so, or are you trying to assert any means to get your children onto a right path?&nbsp; Would it be loving to never discipline your children and allow them to go their own way, without warning them that there would be consequences, some which are irreversible?&nbsp; Would it not hurt to lose them to satan in spite of all your efforts?&nbsp; Do you see that this can happen?<br>God gives every chance to choose Him, but if we do not belong to Him can He allow us to enter into heaven, the purest of places?&nbsp; Can a corrupt thing enter into purity?&nbsp; Or must a corrupt thing go to be where corruption is.<br><br><blockquote>"Wait a minute.&nbsp; You just said above that you have no "allegiance" to the "Old Covenant".&nbsp; Yet here you say that you consider the laws in both the Old Testament and the New Testament to be "guidance".&nbsp; Contradictions galore...that's all I am getting from you."<br></blockquote>This is not a contradiction.&nbsp; <b>"All scripture is useful for learning."&nbsp;</b> We learn from the old testament but we live by the new testament.<br><i>16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness</i><br><br><br>So you were not comparing quran with Bible scriptures.<br><br>Your comparison with the holocaust is absurd since that was without question the act of a human.<br><br>Where did I misquote the quran?<br><br><br>I realized last night that you are probably not aware that alot of what I say comes straight from scripture so I am going to try to go back through my posts so that you will know which statements are not my own but words from God Himself.&nbsp; It is Job who argues with God and God who admonishes Him... '<b>Do you have the mind of God, did you create the universe'? </b>&#091;this is my paraphrase&#093;<br><br>Sorry, I just do not put the time into these posts that I used to.&nbsp; As I said, I just don't have the time and energy for it.&nbsp; I speak from memory.<br>I come to the forums for conversation, not tit for tat, but an exchange of ideas... a further seeking.&nbsp; I want to know the minds of people.<br><br><br>As I am reading what you wrote some problems that I have...<br>1.&nbsp; there is no clear muslim history... there are differing testimonies of what happened with the treaty between Mecca and Medina.<br>2.&nbsp; why do you insist on comparisons?&nbsp; How is it beneficial?<br><br><br>Sorry, but no, you have proved nothing to me, any more than I have 'proved' anything to you.&nbsp; You share with me what you believe, I do my own research into what you say, and reach my own conclusions.&nbsp; I think I have done more thorough research than you have.&nbsp; I think you speak from what you have been taught.&nbsp; I could be wrong though.<br>Do you ever look into the things that others share with you?&nbsp; I do.<br><br><br>Now as far as belief goes...<br><br>I don't think that I could be wrong... <br>I know that I could be wrong...<br>that's why it's called Faith.&nbsp; <img src="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/smileys/smiley1.gif" border="0" align="absmiddle" alt="Smile" /><br><br><b>“For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been His counselor?”<br>"Who has known the mind of the Lord<br>&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; so as to instruct him?”</b><br>(these are spoken in Isaiah, Job, Jeremiah)<br><br>Do we then, place ourselves higher than God in understanding?&nbsp; It is arrogance to say that we know, without question, the mind of God.&nbsp; How do you think God will look upon this arrogance come judgement day?<br><br>I am curious, can you tell me what the quran teaches about pride?<br><br>Salaam,<br>Caringheart<br>]]>
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   <pubDate>Sun, 02 Dec 2012 20:50:54 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? :  In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent,...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=53418">islamispeace</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 02 December 2012 at 1:25pm<br /><br /><font size="2">In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br /></font><div><font size="2">I am not confused.&nbsp; It is the message of Muhammad that is confused.&nbsp; The confusion is in whether to follow sunna(hadith) or quran, since they are often not in agreement.&nbsp; The confusion is in sorting out which surah's in the quran are to be followed, which are abrogated.</font></div><div><font size="2">Why would God be so unclear and confusing in His messsage?</div></div><br><br>It is only "unclear" to those who want it to be "unclear".&nbsp; You are the one who is confused.&nbsp; More than anything, the issue of abrogation has you confused even more, even though it should not.&nbsp; It is very clear to those with knowledge.&nbsp; <br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />Yes, I am aware of the things you quoted.&nbsp; Are you aware that anything a slave accumulated in terms of wealth in his lifetime could not be passed on to his children, (even if he was freed, if I am remembering correctly).&nbsp; How would you feel about that?&nbsp; How just and humane is it to not be able to give your children a better future?</div><br><br>Where did you hear this?&nbsp; Name your source.&nbsp; <br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />I have a copy of the Qur'an at home.&nbsp; I have read it.&nbsp; I refuse to devote extended time in providing proofs on this forum.&nbsp; I did in the past and the posts were not allowed to post.&nbsp; That meant a great deal of my time and energy was wasted.&nbsp; I won't do that anymore.&nbsp; I leave others to do their own research.&nbsp; If they are truly seeking the truth they will.&nbsp; Thank you for the online link though.</div><br><br>Well then, when you misquoted the Quran on this thread, you were just being purposefully deceptive.&nbsp; That's quite an improvement from just being ignorant!&nbsp; <br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br /></font><div><font color="#336600" size="2"><font color="#000000">So basically it says - make a treaty but they know full well the threat when the time for the treaty is up, and if they have not converted by then, kill them.&nbsp; How is that good?&nbsp; This makes me think of the child that is told he is going to receive punishment and then must wait for that punishment.&nbsp; The threat and fear of that punishment is enough to do them in.</font></font></div><div><font color="#336600" size="2"><font color="#000000">I am not sure I get the meaning of the last 2 sentences.&nbsp; Can one receive asylum without converting?</font></font><font size="2"></div></div><br><br>So now, you are having trouble with reading comprehension.&nbsp; <br><br>What the ayats are saying is that Allah and His messenger have dissolved their treaty obligations (the Treaty of Hudaybiyah) with those pagans who broke the treaty.&nbsp; If you know a little Islamic history, you would know that 2 years into the treaty, the pagans of Mecca ambushed and killed some Muslims.&nbsp; It was in response to this incident that these verses were revealed.&nbsp; But the verses added a stipulation that Muhammad (pbuh) was only dissolving treaty obligations with those pagans who had broken the treaty (specifically Abu Sufyan and his allies).&nbsp; Those pagans who had honored their treaty obligations were not being held responsible.&nbsp; <br><br>So, the "kill them where ever you find them" command is with regard to the pagans who had broken the treaty.&nbsp; Even then, Allah commanded that if any of the pagans surrendered, they were not to be killed, so that they could hear the Word of Allah. In other words, the Muslims were not allowed to just kill everyone, even the combatants if they surrendered.&nbsp; Compare this to the Israelites' treatment of the Amalekites, Midianites, Hittites etc., where the command was "kill everyone".&nbsp; <br><br>Who are you indeed to complain?<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />lol - Thanks for making me smile with your *cough. <br></div><br><br>I am glad my joke made you smile,&nbsp; but in all seriousness, you did not answer my question.&nbsp; Would you rather that the Muslims had just killed everyone off, like Moses (pbuh) allegedly did?<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br /></font><div><font size="2">Muhammad spoke to his people in his time.</font></div><div><font size="2">Moses spoke to his people in his time.</font></div><div><font size="2">Jesus is a man for all time.</div></div><br><br>Incorrect.&nbsp; Muhammad (pbuh) was sent to all mankind and his message is for all times.&nbsp; Moses and Jesus (pbut) were sent to their own people.&nbsp; Even the Gospel of Matthew stated that Jesus (pbuh) was sent to the Jews only (Matthew 15:24).&nbsp; <br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br /></font><div><font size="2">I don't know where you keep coming up with this blood bath notion when Jesus returns.&nbsp; It will not b Jesus killing.&nbsp; It will be Jesus coming to stop the blood bath of people killing one another.</font></div><div><font size="2">(But I do not accuse you of making 'assinine', unstudied, unfounded 'claims', do I?)&nbsp; If this is what you think or believe all I can do is tell you otherwise and you can either believe me or do some research.&nbsp; It is up to you.</div></div><br><br>Either you have a short memory or you are just pretending to be, if I may say so, st**id.&nbsp; I proved, using a Christian commentary, that Luke 19:27 was a prophecy about Jesus' return, when he would condemn all who refused to accept him to death.&nbsp; Remember the commentary from "Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible"?&nbsp; Your answer to that was the following:<br><br><font color="#0000FF">"I honestly can not understand the 'Gill's exposition'.&nbsp; If I can find the time and energy to delve into it at another time I will."</font><br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />Do you not see that this is exactly what I am telling you?&nbsp; I <em>use</em> my intellect.&nbsp; I am not the one following in blind faith.&nbsp; I am&nbsp;secure in my&nbsp;truth, in my belief, because I seek and thirst after it.&nbsp; I see that there is no sin, and no thing evil in Jesus.&nbsp; It is Jesus that can not be denied.&nbsp;</font><div><font size="2">So I am as sure in my truth as you feel sure about yours.</font></div><div><font size="2">Still, I know that either of us, or both of us, could be wrong.</font></div><div><font size="2">I have the humility to see that.</font></div><div><font size="2">Who will God save?</font></div><div><font size="2">I think the one with humility <em>and</em> faith.&nbsp; </font></div><div><font size="2">"Pride goeth before a fall."</div></div>&nbsp; <br><br>This "humility" you speak of, that either of us or both of us could be wrong, is not humility.&nbsp; It is uncertainty.&nbsp; How can you insist that you use your intellect when you are so unsure?&nbsp; How can you insist that you are "secure" in your faith yet at the same time think that you could be wrong?&nbsp; Where is the intellect?<br><br>As far as "pride" is concerned, I am "proud" of the intellect my Lord and Sustainer has given me.&nbsp; I am "proud" to say that I am secure in my faith.&nbsp; It is inconceivable to me, based on my studies, that Islam is wrong and that there is a possibility that Christianity could be right.&nbsp; There is nothing wrong with being proud of that.&nbsp; My Lord has blessed me with common sense.&nbsp; How can I not be proud of that?&nbsp; I am also proud to say that I regard the Biblical stories of genocide and baby-killing to be evil and that God could not have been the source of those commandments.<br></font></div></div><font size="2"><br>If you want to persist in your uncertainty and refusal to use your common sense, that is your prerogative.&nbsp; It is your problem.<br><br>Walaikum as-salaam.&nbsp; <br></font></div></div><font size="2"><br>&nbsp; <br></font></div><span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by islamispeace - 02 December 2012 at 1:29pm</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Sun, 02 Dec 2012 13:25:38 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? :   In the Name of Allah, the...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=53418">islamispeace</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 02 December 2012 at 12:45pm<br /><br />In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />Yes, I do,&nbsp;that's why I asked&nbsp;if you were quoting the Qur'an when comparing with the Bible scriptures, and if so, which surah's were you quoting?</div><br><br>I am not going to repeat myself.&nbsp; Go back to the old posts and re-read them.&nbsp; The relevant ayats and hadiths are there.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />How am I casting it aside when I have clearly stated that I am bothered and I see that this could make God look evil?&nbsp; When I have clearly stated that I understand this is why some people reject all notion of God.&nbsp; I don't see what there is for you to abhor in that.</div><br><br>Because you say "God knows best" instead of "God would not allow such evil".&nbsp; Therefore, you are casting the issue aside instead of talking the final step.&nbsp; The line is clearly drawn.&nbsp; You took one step towards it but you have not yet crossed it.&nbsp; <br><br>I abhor your statement because you cannot find it in yourself to call a spade a spade.&nbsp; Instead, you say that we will find out when we meet God.&nbsp; That would be like someone refusing to admit that the Holocaust was evil and instead say that we will find out if it was evil when we meet God, who will set the matter straight.&nbsp; Every rational and God-fearing person would abhor both statements.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br /><div>Answered that already.&nbsp;</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>I will research the rest of what you wrote... the two men... Abu Jahl and Abu Lahab... and get back to you.</div></div> &nbsp;&nbsp; <br><br>You answered nothing and you proved nothing, except that you definitely don't have <u><b>any</b></u> answers.<br><br>Let me enlighten you on Abu Jahl and Abu Lahab.&nbsp; They were Muhammad's uncles and were among the most vocal and cruelest of his opponents.&nbsp; Both persecuted Muslims.&nbsp; In fact, Abu Jahl was the one who martyred Hazrat Sumayyah, the first martyr of Islam.&nbsp; Of course, both Abu Jahl and Abu Lahab eventually met their doom.&nbsp; Abu Jahl was killed in the Battle of Badr.&nbsp; Abu Lahab died of a severe illness. &nbsp; <br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br /><div>May I respectfully point out that you have a habit of falsely accusing.&nbsp; Do you know that it is in the ten commandments that thou shalt not make false accusations?</div><div>I have researched thoroughly the subject of abrogation.&nbsp; I do not make statements without doing research.&nbsp; I began my study of Islam quite a while ago.&nbsp; I do not blindly quote what others have said, but rather do a thorough research from many sources.</div></div><br><br>Uh-huh, and what sources would those be?&nbsp; <br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br /><font color="#333300"><font color="#000000">hank you. &nbsp;I appreciate you for answering my question.&nbsp; What it has to do with&nbsp;is in regard to my original statement that you challenged... that Muhammad revives old testament ways.&nbsp; This type of thing was prescribed in the old testament.&nbsp; The difference here seems to be that it is tempered with the teaching that came with the new covenant... the teaching of mercy for repentance. (Again, I would have to research to see if surah 5 was abrogated by a later verse though)</font></font></div><br><br>You are extremely confused about abrogation.&nbsp; Let me clear the fog for you.&nbsp; This verse has <u><b>not</b></u> been abrogated and is valid for all times.&nbsp; <br><br>Walaikum as-salaam.<br></div></div><span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by islamispeace - 02 December 2012 at 12:47pm</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Sun, 02 Dec 2012 12:45:24 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? :   In the Name of Allah, the...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=53418">islamispeace</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 02 December 2012 at 12:22pm<br /><br /><font size="2">In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />I did already explain this.&nbsp; Jesus is only one aspect of God,&nbsp;conceived of later.&nbsp; I don't get into arguments trying to explain the Trinity aspect of God since God Himself has to&nbsp;illuminat the mind to understand.&nbsp; I explain once and then I leave it alone.&nbsp;&nbsp;I understand that you do not understand, but I would ask you not to not make accusations about me and my understanding and belief.&nbsp; I do not make accusations of anyone&nbsp;when I do not understand what they believe.&nbsp; I simply say, I do not believe what you believe, and I do not understand why you believe what you believe.&nbsp; I only ask the same in return.</div><br><br>This is a typical Christian answer.&nbsp; I gave you solid proof from your own scripture and backed it up with evidence from a Christian commentary that Jesus allegedly existed from the very beginning and your answer was that I will not understand until God "illuminates the mind".&nbsp; God has already given me a mind and an intellect.&nbsp; I use it.&nbsp; Why don't you?<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br /></font><div><font size="2">Not changing the subject simply saying that Muhammad teaches the same thing as is in the old testament.&nbsp; It was taught by Muhammad to&nbsp;destroy the unbelievers.&nbsp; This is no different than what was done to the Canaanites who were not practicing in the way of God... thus were considered unfaithful (i.e., unbelievers).</font></div><div><font size="2">Again, as in my first post, I question the meaning of the word sucklings.</font></div><font size="2"></div><br><br>You have been refuted on this nonsense on several occasions, yet you continue to persist in your ignorance.&nbsp; The fact is that even <b>IF </b>Muhammad (pbuh) taught the destruction of the unbelievers (which he didn't and which you have failed to prove), he did not kill off entire cities and nations, unlike the Moses of the Bible.&nbsp; Therefore, trying to explain away Moses' genocidal actions by diverting to what Muhammad (pbuh) allegedly did is nothing but a desperate attempt to change the subject.&nbsp; Moreover, who are you to complain about Muhammad (pbuh) when Moses (pbuh) apparently did far worse?<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />I do understand your challenge.&nbsp; I await the day when all Truth is made known.&nbsp; I can not say it was not commanded by God.&nbsp; But I do understand your problem.&nbsp; It is the same problem I have with things that were spoken by Muhammad.&nbsp; And I am sounding like a broken record but... "this is why I follow the new covenant... Jesus... I can find no evil thing in Jesus."</div><br><br>Yes, you do sound like a broken record, but you also sound like a mindless drone who simply can't look at the facts and use her commonsense, which God has given you.&nbsp; <br><br>Anyway, thank you for proving my point.&nbsp; No Christian will condemn the killing of babies in the Bible, yet these same Christians will hypocritically condemn the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) for doing far less!<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />I have no allegiance to the old covenant.</div>&nbsp; <br><br>Then you should have no problem saying:<br><br><u><b>"Yes, it was wrong.&nbsp; It was evil.&nbsp; It could not have been commanded by God."<br><br></b></u><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />I am not uncomfortable at all.&nbsp; I have acknowledged my doubts if you actually read my posts.&nbsp; I have told you that I wrestle with God as Jacob wrestled with God... to the point of dislocating a joint.&nbsp; I argue with God all the time... so no blind faith there, and plenty of rational thought.&nbsp; I do not fear to wrestle with God.&nbsp; I know He is a loving Father who would expect nothing less from one to whom He gave free will and determination, and whom He wants to come to Him in full faith with Love, not the faith of babes who are fed on milk but those who are ready for meat.</div><br><br>Wow...so you "wrestle" with God?&nbsp; You "argue" with Him?&nbsp; You are "ready for meat"?&nbsp; So, you say that God knows best yet you still "argue" with Him.&nbsp; You really are a walking contradiction, aren't you?&nbsp; <br><br>How about you just realize, using your common sense, that somethings are evil and that God would never order such things?&nbsp; Case in point: the killing of babies ("sucklings" if you will).&nbsp; This is a great evil.&nbsp; Since God is not evil, then God could not have ordered evil things, right?&nbsp; <br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br /></font><div><font size="2">By thinking that you have all the answers I'm afraid I would have to say that you are the one who is deceived.&nbsp; Where is humility?</font></div><div><font size="2">&nbsp;</font></div><div><font size="2">It saddens me that you do not believe in God's love.&nbsp; I hope one day that you will see it.</div></div><br><br></font></div><font size="2">When did I say that I have all the answers?&nbsp; Please keep your "sadness" to yourself.&nbsp; I don't fall for such false emotions.&nbsp; <br><br>What I said was that God has given us an intellect.&nbsp; He has given us common sense.&nbsp; You don't need to have all the answers to realize some basic truths using this intellect and common sense.&nbsp; Unlike you, I use both instead of just throwing my hands in the air and <font size="2">s</font>ay "I don't know God's mind.&nbsp; I will found out when I meet Him." <br><br>Here are some basic truths.&nbsp; Tell me if you agree or disagree:<br><br>1.&nbsp; God is good.<br><br>2.&nbsp; God is not evil.<br><br>3.&nbsp; God commands good.<br><br>4.&nbsp; God does not command evil.<br><br>5.&nbsp; Charity is good.<br><br>6.&nbsp; God commands charity.<br><br>7.&nbsp; Killing babies is evil.<br><br>8.&nbsp; God does not command killing babies.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br /></font><div><font size="2">and 'bring us gently to Him' is exactly what He is trying to do.&nbsp; You have made my point.</font></div><div><font size="2">&nbsp;</font></div><font size="2">&#091;edit:&nbsp; Interestingly this was my verse for the day, just before signing off;&nbsp; </font><p style="font-family: arial,helvetica,sans-serif;"><font size="2"><span style="letter-spacing: 1px; font-family: Verdana,Geneva,sans-serif;">VERSE OF THE DAY </span><br>  The Lord isn't really being slow about his promise, as some people think. No, He is being patient for your<strong> </strong>sake. He does not want anyone to be destroyed, but wants everyone to repent.  <em>– 2 Peter 3:9</em></font></p><font size="2">Is that not Love?&#093;</div><br><br>You completely misunderstood me, as usual.&nbsp; My point was that He would not throw us into Hellfire for eternity if He loved us and was "hurt" by our rejection of Him.&nbsp; Instead, when we all go to meet Him, He would simply bring us together to Him in a gentle manner, instead of with fire and brimstone for those who rejected Him.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />What meaning does love have if we do not choose it freely?</div><br><br>It would be far better than burning us for eternity!&nbsp; Where is the love in that?<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br /></font><div><font size="2">All the guidance that is given in the old and new testaments.</font></div><div><font size="2">If you are familiar with them you may know that God in the Bible is often referred to as Wisdom.</div></div><br><br>Wait a minute.&nbsp; You just said above that you have no "allegiance" to the "Old Covenant".&nbsp; Yet here you say that you consider the laws in both the Old Testament and the New Testament to be "guidance".&nbsp; Contradictions galore...that's all I am getting from you.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br /></font><div><font size="2">May peace be upon us all,</font></div><div><font size="2">CH</div></div><br><br>Ameen!&nbsp; And May Allah (swt) guide us to make the right choices, using the common sense which He has given us.<br><br><br></font></div></div><font size="2">&nbsp; <br></font><span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by islamispeace - 02 December 2012 at 12:25pm</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Sun, 02 Dec 2012 12:22:54 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? :   Originally posted by Caringheart Greetings...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=53418">islamispeace</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 02 December 2012 at 11:17am<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br /><div>Greetings islamispeace, <br><br>Just to make a note... you keep saying babies... I took sucklings to mean baby pigs... so not too sure about that.&nbsp; And what God knows, God knows, but I certainly do not claim to know all.</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>CH</div></div><br><br>Oh for the love of God...What do you think we have been talking about all this time?&nbsp; Did you read the verse that Mahdi mentioned in the opening of this post?<br><br><table ="tableBorder" align="center" cellpadding="3" cellspacing="1"><t><tr ="msgableRow"><td ="msgLineDevider" height="150" valign="top">      <div ="msg" style=":left; overflow:auto;">   <font color="red">1 Samuel 15 King James Version (KJV) Samuel also said unto Saul, The LORD sent me to anoint thee to be king over his people, over Israel: now therefore hearken thou unto the voice of the words of the LORD. 2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. 3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, <em><u><strong>infant and suckling</strong></u></em> ox and sheep, camel and ass.</font>   </div></td></tr></t></table><br>What do you think "infant and suckling" means?&nbsp; And why are you only now questioning the meaning?&nbsp; <br><br>Do you know what I think?&nbsp; I think the moral implications of this and other verses is finally dawning on you.&nbsp; That is why only now you are questioning the meaning of "suckling".&nbsp; This is progress which I am happy to see.&nbsp; It is a good first step to seeing the larger picture which is that the verses talking about slaughtering babies are evil and not from God.&nbsp; The day you realize that will be&nbsp; day of celebration!<br></div>]]>
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   <pubDate>Sun, 02 Dec 2012 11:17:41 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? :  Originally posted by islamispeaceYes,...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=66457">bunter</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 02 December 2012 at 7:47am<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by islamispeace</strong></em><br /><br />Yes, God knows best.  And He knows that killing babies is evil.  He knows that He did not order such atrocious and monstrous crimes.  He knows that the Biblical stories of genocide are lies against Him written by blasphemers. </div>I think this might be a case of YOU know best. Let me ask you about just two of many such verses in the Quran.<br /><br /><em><strong>Q4:56</strong> We shall send those who reject Our revelations to the Fire. When their skins have been burned away We shall replace them with new ones so that they may continue to feel the pain. God is mighty and wise.<br /><br /><strong>Q18:29</strong> Say, Now the truth has come from your Lord let those who wish to believe in it do so and let those who wish to reject it do so. We have prepared a Fire for the wrongdoers that will envelop them from all sides. If they call for relief they will be relieved with water like molten metal scalding their faces. What a terrible drink. What a pain&#64257;il resting place.</em><br /><br />Now, surely a good God would know that burning off a person's skin and then replacing it to be burned off again with the only relief being water as hot as molten metal thrown in your face for all eternity must be worse thing anyone can think of, to use your words a monstrous crime? How do you feel about the verses, will you rejoice in them, be happy that such punishments exists?<span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by bunter - 02 December 2012 at 7:50am</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Sun, 02 Dec 2012 07:47:53 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? :  Originally posted by honetoBunter,...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=66457">bunter</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 02 December 2012 at 7:40am<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by honeto</strong></em><br /><br />Bunter, by the way what lessons do you learn from those stories, and who declared that those are not to be followed, and if they are so bad, why are they there in the first place. According to your guys, Jesus is "love" and that he was with the father since the beginning so what was going on then, as these acts were actually quoted to have been directed by God as commands! And did not Jesus in the NT is quoted to have said that every iota of the law has to be fulfilled. And that he did not come to abolish but to fulfill, didn't he? Oh my..!Hasan</div>Some points.<br />1. No one 'decides', it is just that is the way it is generally interpreted. I might ask you - who interprets the Quran?<br /><br />2. Any event where judgement occurs is bad and meant to bring us sorrow - unless you are of the persuasion that we should rejoice and be glad when we see someone on their way to hell? How do you feel about the medina massacre by your prophet - do you feel glad about it, do you feel it was a good thing to happen?<br /><br />3. You are sadly mistaken if you think that because killings occurred in the Bible that they then become a law for all time - that might be the Islamic way, but it is neither Jewish or Christian nor logical.<br /><br />4. You seem to have a clear view on what is bad, so take a look at Q4:56 and Q18:29 where Allah one presumes <strong>burns off skins</strong> and then replaces them so they can be burned off again and the only relief from this with water like <strong>molten metal thrown</strong> in their faces for all eternity - is that good or bad? <br /><br />If we are to understand each other faith we have to be honest about it.<br /><br /><span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by bunter - 02 December 2012 at 7:41am</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Sun, 02 Dec 2012 07:40:34 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? :     Originally posted by islamispeace You...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24200&amp;PID=170976#170976</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=69566">Caringheart</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 01 December 2012 at 8:10pm<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by islamispeace</strong></em><br /><br /><br>You complain of being "confused"?&nbsp; How so?&nbsp; What is so confusing?&nbsp;</div><div>I am not confused.&nbsp; It is the message of Muhammad that is confused.&nbsp; The confusion is in whether to follow sunna(hadith) or quran, since they are often not in agreement.&nbsp; The confusion is in sorting out which surah's in the quran are to be followed, which are abrogated.</div><div>Why would God be so unclear and confusing in His messsage?</div><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by islamispeace</strong></em><br /><br /><br>Are you aware that Muhammad (pbuh) encouraged the freeing of slaves and their fair and humane treatment?&nbsp;</div><div>Yes, I am aware of the things you quoted.&nbsp; Are you aware that anything a slave accumulated in terms of wealth in his lifetime could not be passed on to his children, (even if he was freed, if I am remembering correctly).&nbsp; How would you feel about that?&nbsp; How just and humane is it to not be able to give your children a better future?</div><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by islamispeace</strong></em><br /><br /><br>If you are so interested in the "truth", why not just pick up a copy of the Quran or read it online.&nbsp;</div><div>I have a copy of the Qur'an at home.&nbsp; I have read it.&nbsp; I refuse to devote extended time in providing proofs on this forum.&nbsp; I did in the past and the posts were not allowed to post.&nbsp; That meant a great deal of my time and energy was wasted.&nbsp; I won't do that anymore.&nbsp; I leave others to do their own research.&nbsp; If they are truly seeking the truth they will.&nbsp; Thank you for the online link though.</div><a href="http://www.searchtruth.com/list.php" target="_blank"><br></a><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by islamispeace</strong></em><br /><br /><br>Let's see the <a href="http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display.php?chapter=9&amp;translator=2" target="_blank">surah</a> you refer to in the proper context:<br><br><font color="#336600">"And an announcement from Allah and His Messenger, to the people (assembled) on the day of the Great Pilgrimage,- that Allah and His Messenger dissolve (treaty) obligations with the Pagans. If then, ye repent, it were best for you; but if ye turn away, know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah. And proclaim a grievous penalty to those who reject Faith. (<b><i>But the treaties are) not dissolved with those Pagans with whom ye have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided any one against you</i></b>. So fulfil your engagements with them to the end of their term: for Allah loveth the righteous.&nbsp; But when the forbidden months are past, <b><i>then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war)</i></b>; but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. <i><b>If one amongst the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of Allah; and then escort him to where he can be secure</b></i>. That is because they are men without knowledge." (9:3-6)</div><div><font color="#000000">So basically it says - make a treaty but they know full well the threat when the time for the treaty is up, and if they have not converted by then, kill them.&nbsp; How is that good?&nbsp; This makes me think of the child that is told he is going to receive punishment and then must wait for that punishment.&nbsp; The threat and fear of that punishment is enough to do them in.</font></div><div><font color="#000000">I am not sure I get the meaning of the last 2 sentences.&nbsp; Can one receive asylum without converting?</font></div></font><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by islamispeace</strong></em><br /><br /><br>What is your problem with this surah?&nbsp; Would you rather that the Muslims just had killed everyone off, you know like...cough...Moses?</div>&nbsp; lol - Thanks for making me smile with your *cough. <br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by islamispeace</strong></em><br /><br /><br>Do you understand?&nbsp; Your "New Covenant" which you so proudly speak of will expire.&nbsp; So, it is irrelevant what the Apostles did or did not do.&nbsp; As far as they were concerned, when Jesus would come (in their lifetimes as far as they knew), he would start a bloodbath.&nbsp; You know...murder and mayhem, like the Old Testament ways.</div><div>Muhammad spoke to his people in his time.</div><div>Moses spoke to his people in his time.</div><div>Jesus is a man for all time.</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>I don't know where you keep coming up with this blood bath notion when Jesus returns.&nbsp; It will not b Jesus killing.&nbsp; It will be Jesus coming to stop the blood bath of people killing one another.</div><div>(But I do not accuse you of making 'assinine', unstudied, unfounded 'claims', do I?)&nbsp; If this is what you think or believe all I can do is tell you otherwise and you can either believe me or do some research.&nbsp; It is up to you.</div><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by islamispeace</strong></em><br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br /><br>I will not choose belief without questioning for then it is too easy for the deceiver to lead on the way of sure death.</div><br><br>Your Maker gave you an intellect.&nbsp; If you don't use it, you will have no excuse on the Day you meet him.&nbsp; <br></div><div>Do you not see that this is exactly what I am telling you?&nbsp; I <em>use</em> my intellect.&nbsp; I am not the one following in blind faith.&nbsp; I am&nbsp;secure in my&nbsp;truth, in my belief, because I seek and thirst after it.&nbsp; I see that there is no sin, and no thing evil in Jesus.&nbsp; It is Jesus that can not be denied.&nbsp;</div><div>So I am as sure in my truth as you feel sure about yours.</div><div>Still, I know that either of us, or both of us, could be wrong.</div><div>I have the humility to see that.</div><div>Who will God save?</div><div>I think the one with humility <em>and</em> faith.&nbsp; </div><div><b>"Pride goeth before a fall."</b></div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>Salaam,</div><div>CH</div><span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by Caringheart - 02 December 2012 at 9:05pm</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Sat, 01 Dec 2012 20:10:49 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? :      Originally posted by...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=69566">Caringheart</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 01 December 2012 at 7:17pm<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by islamispeace</strong></em><br /><br /><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />If you were quoting the quran, which verses were they?&nbsp; It looked to me like you were quoting statements made by followers of Muhammad.</div><br>I quoted from both the Quran and the Sunnah.&nbsp; Do you know their significance?</div><div>Yes, I do,&nbsp;that's why I asked&nbsp;if you were quoting the Qur'an when comparing with the Bible scriptures, and if so, which surah's were you quoting?</div><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by islamispeace</strong></em><br /><br /><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />Did I ever say I was not bothered by what Moses was ordered by God to do?&nbsp; I was bothered that God would order Abraham to kill his long awaited son also.&nbsp; But who am I?&nbsp; Do I have the mind of God?&nbsp; Am I the maker of all this creation to decide its fate?</div><br>And so, using this excuse, you basically wash your hands clean and cast the issue aside.&nbsp;</div><div>How am I casting it aside when I have clearly stated that I am bothered and I see that this could make God look evil?&nbsp; When I have clearly stated that I understand this is why some people reject all notion of God.&nbsp; I don't see what there is for you to abhor in that.</div><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by islamispeace</strong></em><br /><br />no supporting evidence.&nbsp;</div><div>Answered that already.&nbsp;</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>I will research the rest of what you wrote... the two men... Abu Jahl and Abu Lahab... and get back to you.</div><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by islamispeace</strong></em><br /><br /><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />Regarding the surah's that you quoted;<br>Yes, there are certain surah's that I can get behind, but then there are others that contradict... and then there's that little problem of abrogation.</div>&nbsp; <br><br>More vague and ignorant statements.&nbsp; Care to elaborate?&nbsp; Many ignorant non-Muslims, who have not even an iota of understanding on the issue of "abrogation", appeal to this phenomenon in order to justify their ignorance and bias.&nbsp; If you were so interested in it, I would think that you would do research the topic using authentic Islamic sources to gain a thorough understanding of it.&nbsp; But, no.&nbsp; You would rather just appeal to your limited knowledge based on reading material from like-minded people and just make absurd&nbsp; and vague statements.</div><div>May I respectfully point out that you have a habit of falsely accusing.&nbsp; Do you know that it is in the ten commandments that <b>thou shalt not make false accusations</b>?</div><div>I have researched thoroughly the subject of abrogation.&nbsp; I do not make statements without doing research.&nbsp; I began my study of Islam quite a while ago.&nbsp; I do not blindly quote what others have said, but rather do a thorough research from many sources.</div><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by islamispeace</strong></em><br /><br /><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />I mean this next question with all respect for I would like to know the answer... Where does the sharia teaching to cut off hands come from?&nbsp; Is it from the Qur'an?<br>You see, as I have said all along, the problem I have with Muhammad is that there is so much confusion that comes with his message.</div><br><br>Not that it has anything to do with this thread, but to answer your question, the punishment for cutting off hands is found in the Quran.&nbsp; It is the punishment for thieves and robbers, although repentance is also accepted:<br><br><font color="#333300">"As to the thief, Male or female, cut off his or her hands: a punishment by way of example, from Allah, for their crime: and Allah is Exalted in power.&nbsp; But if the thief repents after his crime, and amends his conduct, Allah turneth to him in forgiveness; for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful." (5:38-39)</div><div><font color="#000000">Thank you. &nbsp;I appreciate you for answering my question.&nbsp; What it has to do with&nbsp;is in regard to my original statement that you challenged... that Muhammad revives old testament ways.&nbsp; This type of thing was prescribed in the old testament.&nbsp; The difference here seems to be that it is tempered with the teaching that came with the new covenant... the teaching of mercy for repentance. (Again, I would have to research to see if surah 5 was abrogated by a later verse though)</font></div><div><font color="#000000">&nbsp;</font></div><div><font color="#000000">As with my last posts.&nbsp; I will need to stop here and hope to continue later.</font></div><div><font color="#000000">Salaam, and a good evening to you, (or a good day, depending on where you live <img src="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/smileys/smiley1.gif" height="17" width="17" border="0" align="absmiddle" alt="Smile" />).</font></div><div><font color="#000000">CH</font></div></font><span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by Caringheart - 02 December 2012 at 9:02pm</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Sat, 01 Dec 2012 19:17:34 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? :     Greetings islamispeace, Originally...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=69566">Caringheart</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 01 December 2012 at 6:52pm<br /><br /><div>Greetings islamispeace,</div><div></div><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by islamispeace</strong></em><br /><br /><br>It wasn't Jesus?&nbsp; Don't you believe Jesus is God?&nbsp; Does not the Gospel of John state that the "word" was there from the very beginning?<br><br><font color="#0000ff">"<span>In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.</span> <span id="en-NIV-26047"><sup>2&nbsp;</sup>He was with God in the beginning.</span>" (John 1:1-2)</font><br><br>"Barnes' Notes on the Bible" explains the meaning of "word":<br><font color="#0000ff"><br>"This name is given to him who afterward became "flesh," or was incarnate (<a href="http://bible.cc/john/1-14.htm" target="_blank">John 1:14</a> - that is, to the Messiah. Whatever is meant by it, therefore, is applicable to the Lord Jesus Christ." <a href="http://barnes.biblecommenter.com/john/1.htm" target="_blank">&#091;1&#093;</a></div><div></div></font>I did already explain this.&nbsp; Jesus is only one aspect of God,&nbsp;conceived of later.&nbsp; I don't get into arguments trying to explain the Trinity aspect of God since <b>God Himself has to&nbsp;illuminate the mind to understand</b>.&nbsp; I explain once and then I leave it alone.&nbsp;&nbsp;I understand that you do not understand, but I would ask you not to not make accusations about me and my understanding and belief.&nbsp; I do not make accusations of anyone&nbsp;when I do not understand what they believe.&nbsp; I simply say, I do not believe what you believe, and I do not understand why you believe what you believe.&nbsp; I only ask the same in return.<br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by islamispeace</strong></em><br /><br /><br>Again, you try to change the subject.&nbsp; First of all, Muslims do not believe that children can be killed.&nbsp; Allah (swt) never commanded the Muslims to dash babies on rocks.&nbsp; Who are you to accuse us of defending behavior similar to that of the Israelites?&nbsp;</div><div>Not changing the subject simply saying that Muhammad teaches the same thing as is in the old testament.&nbsp; It was taught by Muhammad to&nbsp;destroy the unbelievers.&nbsp; This is no different than what was done to the Canaanites who were not practicing in the way of God... thus were considered unfaithful (i.e., unbelievers).</div><div>Again, as in my first post, I question the meaning of the word sucklings.</div> <div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by islamispeace</strong></em><br /><br /><br><br>Second, any Muslim who does think that civilians, especially women and children, can be killed is contradicting the Quran and Sunnah.&nbsp; Your problem is that your scripture condones the killing of civilians and you cannot bring around to say <u><b>"Yes, it was wrong.&nbsp; It was evil.&nbsp; It could not have been commanded by God"</b></u>.&nbsp; This is my challenge to you and to all Christians.&nbsp; Make this statement and your hypocrisy and blasphemy against God will disappear.</div><div>I do understand your challenge.&nbsp; I await the day when all Truth is made known. <b>(for now we see only as in a glass darkly but then we will know in full)</b>&nbsp; I can not say it was not commanded by God.&nbsp; But I do understand your problem.&nbsp; It is the same problem I have with things that were spoken by Muhammad.&nbsp; And I am sounding like a broken record but... "this is why I follow the new covenant... Jesus... I can find no evil thing in Jesus."</div><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by islamispeace</strong></em><br /><br /><br>Wow...This excuse can be used to basically justify any type of atrocity.&nbsp; It is the excuse of someone who knows in the back of their minds that something is wrong or evil. But because of their allegiance or loyalty to an institution, whether it is a religion or a government etc., they cannot actually say it because it would mean turning their backs on that institution.</div><div>I have no allegiance to the old covenant.</div><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by islamispeace</strong></em><br /><br />your response illustrates your blind faith.&nbsp; You are not open to rational thought on matters pertaining to your religion.&nbsp; That is why you feel so uncomfortable with this subject.&nbsp;</div><div>I am not uncomfortable at all.&nbsp; I have acknowledged my doubts if you actually read my posts.&nbsp; I have told you that I wrestle with God as <b>Jacob wrestled with God... to the point of dislocating a joint</b>.&nbsp; I argue with God all the time... so no blind faith there, and plenty of rational thought.&nbsp; I do not fear to wrestle with God.&nbsp; I know He is a loving Father who would expect nothing less from one to whom He gave free will and determination, and whom He wants to come to Him in full faith with Love, <b>not the faith of babes who are fed on milk but those who are ready for meat.</b></div> <div><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by islamispeace</strong></em><br /><br /><br>&nbsp;by saying you don't "understand" everything, you are deceiving yourself.</div></div><div>By thinking that you have all the answers I'm afraid I would have to say that you are the one who is deceived.&nbsp; Where is humility?</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>It saddens me that you do not believe in God's love.&nbsp; I hope one day that you will see it.</div><div>&nbsp; <br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by islamispeace</strong></em><br /><br /><br>If He was "hurt" by our rejection of Him, then He would not throw us into hellfire for eternity but instead gently bring us to Him.&nbsp;</div></div><div>and 'bring us gently to Him' is exactly what He is trying to do.&nbsp; You have made my point.</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>&#091;edit:&nbsp; Interestingly this was my verse for the day, just before signing off;&nbsp; <p style="font-family: arial, helvetica, sans-serif; font-size: 12px;"><span style="letter-spacing: 1px; font-family: Verdana, Geneva, sans-serif; font-size: 10px;">VERSE OF THE DAY </span><br>  The Lord isn't really being slow about his promise, as some people think. No, He is being patient for your<strong> </strong>sake. He does not want anyone to be destroyed, but wants everyone to repent.  <em>– 2 Peter 3:9</em></p><div>Is that not Love?&#093;<br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by islamispeace</strong></em><br /><br /><br>Then He would have made us all believers.&nbsp; He has that power, does He not?</div></div></div><div>What meaning does love have if we do not choose it freely?<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by islamispeace</strong></em><br /><br /><br>What "laws" are you referring to?<br></div></div><div>All the guidance that is given in the old and new testaments.</div><div>If you are familiar with them you may know that God in the Bible is often referred to as Wisdom.</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>May peace be upon us all,</div><div>CH</div><span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by Caringheart - 02 December 2012 at 8:59pm</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Sat, 01 Dec 2012 18:52:56 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? :  Greetings islamispeace, Originally...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24200&amp;PID=170967#170967</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=69566">Caringheart</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 01 December 2012 at 6:20pm<br /><br /><div>Greetings islamispeace,</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by islamispeace</strong></em><br /><br /><br>As it stands, not ONE Christian that has posted on this thread, including yourself, has yet to categorically condemn the baby-killing in the Bible.&nbsp; You have all tried to dance around the issue, making contradictory statements and hypocritical comparisons.&#091;/quote<div>How can I condemn or not condemn?&nbsp; Am I God?&nbsp; Do I have the mind of God to know all Truth?&nbsp; If it is of a truth that God ordered it, I am not one to condemn it, and unless God Himself tells me He did not order it I am not one to say anything on the matter.</div>&nbsp; &#091;QUOTE=islamispeace&#093;<br>Yes, God knows best.&nbsp; And He knows that killing babies is evil.&nbsp; He knows that He did not order such atrocious and monstrous crimes.&nbsp; He knows that the Biblical stories of genocide are lies against Him written by blasphemers.&nbsp; <br></div><div>Just to make a note... you keep saying babies... I took sucklings to mean baby pigs... so not too sure about that.&nbsp; And what God knows, God knows, but I certainly do not claim to know all.</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>CH</div>]]>
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   <pubDate>Sat, 01 Dec 2012 18:20:32 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? :  In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent,...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24200&amp;PID=170966#170966</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=53418">islamispeace</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 01 December 2012 at 5:02pm<br /><br />In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />If you were quoting the quran, which verses were they?&nbsp; It looked to me like you were quoting statements made by followers of Muhammad.</div><br><br>I quoted from both the Quran and the Sunnah.&nbsp; Do you know their significance?<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />Did I ever say I was not bothered by what Moses was ordered by God to do?&nbsp; I was bothered that God would order Abraham to kill his long awaited son also.&nbsp; But who am I?&nbsp; Do I have the mind of God?&nbsp; Am I the maker of all this creation to decide its fate?</div><br><br>And so, using this excuse, you basically wash your hands clean and cast the issue aside.&nbsp; As I said before, people can use this excuse to justify any type of atrocious behavior, even (apparently) the slaughter of innocent children.&nbsp; All rational people of faith would abhor your statement.&nbsp; I certainly do.&nbsp; <br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />Muhammad conquered anyone <u>he</u> deemed to be his enemy.&nbsp; Only Muhammad says they were not innocent.&nbsp; He was judge, jury and executioner.&nbsp; I'll bet you those people felt they were innocent and undeserving of what they received at the hand of Muhammad.</div><br><br>And I suppose you will educate us and tell us the "real" story?&nbsp; All I have read in your posts are your own ridiculous opinions with no supporting evidence.&nbsp; <br><br>Tell us, teacher.&nbsp; Were the people the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) saw as his enemies really innocent?&nbsp; How so?&nbsp; Why was he not justified in fighting against them and killing them?&nbsp; Were Abu Jahl and Abu Lahab, the arch-persecutors of Muslims, really just two nice guys?<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />Regarding the surah's that you quoted;<br>Yes, there are certain surah's that I can get behind, but then there are others that contradict... and then there's that little problem of abrogation.</div>&nbsp; <br><br>More vague and ignorant statements.&nbsp; Care to elaborate?&nbsp; Many ignorant non-Muslims, who have not even an iota of understanding on the issue of "abrogation", appeal to this phenomenon in order to justify their ignorance and bias.&nbsp; If you were so interested in it, I would think that you would do research the topic using authentic Islamic sources to gain a thorough understanding of it.&nbsp; But, no.&nbsp; You would rather just appeal to your limited knowledge based on reading material from like-minded people and just make absurd&nbsp; and vague statements.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />I mean this next question with all respect for I would like to know the answer... Where does the sharia teaching to cut off hands come from?&nbsp; Is it from the Qur'an?<br>You see, as I have said all along, the problem I have with Muhammad is that there is so much confusion that comes with his message.</div><br><br>Not that it has anything to do with this thread, but to answer your question, the punishment for cutting off hands is found in the Quran.&nbsp; It is the punishment for thieves and robbers, although repentance is also accepted:<br><br><font color="#333300">"As to the thief, Male or female, cut off his or her hands: a punishment by way of example, from Allah, for their crime: and Allah is Exalted in power.&nbsp; But if the thief repents after his crime, and amends his conduct, Allah turneth to him in forgiveness; for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful." (5:38-39)</font><br><br>You complain of being "confused"?&nbsp; How so?&nbsp; What is so confusing?&nbsp; The killing of babies does not confuse you, huh?<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />Women and children were taken as slaves.</div><br><br>But before you were saying that the reason they were not killed was because Muhammad (pbuh) could get taxes from them.&nbsp; When you were refuted for that ignorant statement, you changed gears and said "well, women and children were taken as slaves".&nbsp; <br><br>Are you aware that Muhammad (pbuh) encouraged the freeing of slaves and their fair and humane treatment?&nbsp; <br><br><font color="#333300">"Narrated Abu Dhar: I asked the Prophet, "What is the best deed?" He replied, "To believe in Allah and to fight for His Cause." I then asked, "What is the best kind of manumission (of slaves)?" He replied, "The manumission of the most expensive slave and the most beloved by his master." I said, "If I cannot afford to do that?" He said, "Help the weak or do good for a person who cannot work for himself." I said, "If I cannot do that?" He said, "Refrain from harming others for this will be regarded as a charitable deed for your own good."" (Sahih Bukhari, Book 46, #694)</font><br><br><font color="#333300">"Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "Whoever manumits his share of a jointly possessed slave, it is imperative for him to get that slave manumitted completely by paying the remaining price, and if he does not have sufficient money to manumit him, then the price of the slave should be estimated justly, and he is to be allowed to work and earn the amount that will manumit him (without overburdening him)"." (Sahih Bukhari, Book 44, #672)</font><br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />It is because of my <u>lack</u> of ignorance, and my humility, that I do not claim to have all the answers.&nbsp; Whom of us does?&nbsp; But thanks for another attack on my personal character.&nbsp; I do not accuse anyone of ignorance, do I?&nbsp; Are we not all seeking after Truth?</div><br><br>If that was the case, then you would not be making the silly and ridiculous claims you have made about Islam and Muhammad (pbuh).&nbsp; Instead of making false accusations as if they were true, why didn't you just say "I have heard such and such verse says such and such thing"?&nbsp; Pleading ignorance after you have been thoroughly refuted just exposes you as biased individual.&nbsp; Case in point:<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />I could quote you the other surah's and see what order of abrogation they take, but I do not have the time for it.&nbsp; There is the one 'seek them out wherever you may find them, lay in wait, and slay them'.<br>So it depends on which surah's we choose to follow doesn't it?&nbsp; Again, the confusion of Muhammad and his message.</div><br><br>If you are so interested in the "truth", why not just pick up a copy of the Quran or read it online.&nbsp; Here is a website that has the Quran: <a href="http://www.searchtruth.com/list.php" target="_blank">http://www.searchtruth.com/list.php<br></a><br>Let's see the <a href="http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display.php?chapter=9&amp;translator=2" target="_blank">surah</a> you refer to in the proper context:<br><br><font color="#336600">"And an announcement from Allah and His Messenger, to the people (assembled) on the day of the Great Pilgrimage,- that Allah and His Messenger dissolve (treaty) obligations with the Pagans. If then, ye repent, it were best for you; but if ye turn away, know ye that ye cannot frustrate Allah. And proclaim a grievous penalty to those who reject Faith. (<b><i>But the treaties are) not dissolved with those Pagans with whom ye have entered into alliance and who have not subsequently failed you in aught, nor aided any one against you</i></b>. So fulfil your engagements with them to the end of their term: for Allah loveth the righteous.&nbsp; But when the forbidden months are past, <b><i>then fight and slay the Pagans wherever ye find them, an seize them, beleaguer them, and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war)</i></b>; but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practise regular charity, then open the way for them: for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful. <i><b>If one amongst the Pagans ask thee for asylum, grant it to him, so that he may hear the word of Allah; and then escort him to where he can be secure</b></i>. That is because they are men without knowledge." (9:3-6)</font><br><br>What is your problem with this surah?&nbsp; Would you rather that the Muslims just had killed everyone off, you know like...cough...Moses?<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />I have the solid evidence, which I once took the time to provide but they were never allowed to post so I quit investing the time.&nbsp; I have done my homework.&nbsp; I have studied.&nbsp; I hope you can say the same.</div>&nbsp; <br><br>Sure you do.&nbsp; I doubt you have done your homework.&nbsp; That is obvious from reading your posts.&nbsp; You make asinine claims and then when you are refuted, you simply make another asinine claim and then say that you don't have all the answers.&nbsp; Well of course you don't!&nbsp; I already know that!&nbsp; You don't have to tell me!<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />I see you easily ignore this.</div><br><br>When did I ignore this?&nbsp; Are you going to make me repeat myself?&nbsp; I responded to your post about Luke 19:27.&nbsp; Here is what I said:<br><i><br>The point is that this "New Covenant" has an expiration date.&nbsp; After this, says the Bible, Jesus will revert to the old ways and will command his followers (which includes you) to kill all who reject him.&nbsp; Therefore, this "love" you speak of is not for all times and it is conditional.</i><br><br>Do you understand?&nbsp; Your "New Covenant" which you so proudly speak of will expire.&nbsp; So, it is irrelevant what the Apostles did or did not do.&nbsp; As far as they were concerned, when Jesus would come (in their lifetimes as far as they knew), he would start a bloodbath.&nbsp; You know...murder and mayhem, like the Old Testament ways.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />Peace to you, and may we find common ground to respect one another and our individual beliefs.&nbsp; Only when we meet our Maker will we Know.<br>I will not choose belief without questioning for then it is too easy for the deceiver to lead on the way of sure death.</div><br><br>Your Maker gave you an intellect.&nbsp; If you don't use it, you will have no excuse on the Day you meet him.&nbsp; You are taking a big risk by consigning yourself to find out the truth only when you meet Him.&nbsp; By that time, it will be far too late to change your mind and repent.&nbsp; The truth is already in front of you.&nbsp; You just choose not to acknowledge it.&nbsp; In short, you have already been deceived.&nbsp; <br><span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by islamispeace - 01 December 2012 at 5:12pm</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Sat, 01 Dec 2012 17:02:33 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? : In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent,...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24200&amp;PID=170964#170964</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=53418">islamispeace</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 01 December 2012 at 3:58pm<br /><br />In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />No it was not Jesus.&nbsp; Jesus was not conceived by God until after it was what was "asked of the Lord".&nbsp; That was the point of sharing the scriptures.&nbsp; It was not irrelevant.&nbsp; It was God, before the idea of Jesus was even conceived, who spoke to Moses.&nbsp; Jesus is the new covenant... a different aspect of God.</div><br><br>It wasn't Jesus?&nbsp; Don't you believe Jesus is God?&nbsp; Does not the Gospel of John state that the "word" was there from the very beginning?<br><br><font color="#0000FF">"<span ="text John-1-1">In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.</span> <span id="en-NIV-26047" ="text John-1-2"><sup ="versenum">2&nbsp;</sup>He was with God in the beginning.</span>" (John 1:1-2)</font><br><br>"Barnes' Notes on the Bible" explains the meaning of "word":<br><font color="#0000FF"><br>"This name is given to him who afterward became "flesh," or was incarnate (<a href="http://bible.cc/john/1-14.htm" target="_blank">John 1:14</a> - that is, to the Messiah. Whatever is meant by it, therefore, is applicable to the Lord Jesus Christ." <a href="http://barnes.biblecommenter.com/john/1.htm" target="_blank">&#091;1&#093;</a></font><br><br>So, now you are contradicting your own scripture in these desperate attempts at explaining why God allowed the Israelites to kill babies.&nbsp; <br><br>It is simple logic.&nbsp; You believe Jesus is God.&nbsp; You believe it was God who commanded the Israelites to kill babies.&nbsp; Therefore, it was Jesus who commanded the Israelits to kill babies.&nbsp; <br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />God of the old testament is real.&nbsp; I agree God of the old testament can seem evil... yet there are Muslims who defend this same sort of Allah.</div>&nbsp; <br><br>Again, you try to change the subject.&nbsp; First of all, Muslims do not believe that children can be killed.&nbsp; Allah (swt) never commanded the Muslims to dash babies on rocks.&nbsp; Who are you to accuse us of defending behavior similar to that of the Israelites?&nbsp; <br><br>Second, any Muslim who does think that civilians, especially women and children, can be killed is contradicting the Quran and Sunnah.&nbsp; Your problem is that your scripture condones the killing of civilians and you cannot bring around to say <u><b>"Yes, it was wrong.&nbsp; It was evil.&nbsp; It could not have been commanded by God"</b></u>.&nbsp; This is my challenge to you and to all Christians.&nbsp; Make this statement and your hypocrisy and blasphemy against God will disappear.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />Who are we to judge God.&nbsp; I am happy God decided to do a new thing and conceive a Son, a new covenant and abandon the old ways... to show a new side of Himself to us.&nbsp; I can see no evil thing in Jesus.</div>&nbsp; <br><br>Wow...This excuse can be used to basically justify any type of atrocity.&nbsp; It is the excuse of someone who knows in the back of their minds that something is wrong or evil. But because of their allegiance or loyalty to an institution, whether it is a religion or a government etc., they cannot actually say it because it would mean turning their backs on that institution.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />How can I criticize you, yet still accept you?&nbsp; I can, because I choose to, knowing that <b>I</b> do not know all.&nbsp; I am not God, nor do I have the mind of God.&nbsp; It helps to know <u>all</u> of God's scriptures.</div> <br><br>You are comparing me to Moses (pbuh, the prophet of God, who received God's revelation and who spoke with God?&nbsp; <br><br>Also, your response illustrates your blind faith.&nbsp; You are not open to rational thought on matters pertaining to your religion.&nbsp; That is why you feel so uncomfortable with this subject.&nbsp; It is blatantly obvious from everyone of your posts.&nbsp; In fact, it is obvious that every Christian who has posted on this thread is extremely uncomfortable with this issue<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />Again, I do not have the mind of God.&nbsp; I hope to understand all one day but I know that day will not come until I meet my Maker.</div><br><br>God gave you an intellect.&nbsp; He gave you a conscience.&nbsp; By refusing to use your intellect and instead excuse your ignorance and contradictory viewpoints by saying you don't "understand" everything, you are deceiving yourself.&nbsp; When you do meet your Maker, and meet him you will, you will not have an excuse for failing to see the plain truth that was dangling in front of you the whole time.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />They will have a chance to see the Truth in Jesus during the time of the tribulation.&nbsp; There will still be a chance for redemption.</div><br><br>Yup, right before Jesus descends and kills everyone who rejected him.&nbsp; Hence, no more "New Covenant".&nbsp; No more "love".&nbsp; It will be back to the old days of murder and mayhem.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />You don't think it hurts God to see His children, His creation, all astray, and destroying the beautiful gift which He gave to them... the gift of the earth, the moon, the stars, the sky, the sun, all nature, and the gift of life?</div><br><br>God is free of all wants.&nbsp; If He was "hurt" by our rejection of Him, then He would not throw us into hellfire for eternity but instead gently bring us to Him.&nbsp; The truth is that we choose disbelief at our own peril, as the Quran states:<br><br><font color="#333300">"Let not those grieve thee who rush headlong into Unbelief: Not the least harm will they do to Allah: Allah's plan is that He will give them no portion in the Hereafter, but a severe punishment.&nbsp; Those who purchase Unbelief at the price of faith,- not the least harm will they do to Allah, but they will have a grievous punishment." (3:176-177)&nbsp;</font> <br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />He does not need us, but He created us, and you think He does not love His creation?&nbsp; That He does not hurt to see His creation hurt?&nbsp; Why do you think satan is trying to destroy God's creation if not to hurt Him?</div><br><br>Then He would have made us all believers.&nbsp; He has that power, does He not?<br><br><font color="#333300">"Even so, in the eyes of most of the pagans, their "partners" made alluring the slaughter of their children, in order to lead them to their own destruction, and cause confusion in their religion. If Allah had willed, they would not have done so: But leave alone them and their inventions." (6:137)</font><br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />I agree it is us that need God.&nbsp; He gives His law to protect us.</div><br><br>What "laws" are you referring to?<br>]]>
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   <pubDate>Sat, 01 Dec 2012 15:58:22 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? :  In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent,...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24200&amp;PID=170957#170957</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=53418">islamispeace</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 01 December 2012 at 11:49am<br /><br />In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />I think the only difference is that the Jewish history is honest about its history and does nothing to cover it up... as are the Christians honest about the despicable things done in the name of Christianity.</div><br><br>And Muslims don't?&nbsp; As I said before, you know NOTHING about Islam except your own biased, preconceived fantasies.&nbsp; <br><br>As it stands, not ONE Christian that has posted on this thread, including yourself, has yet to categorically condemn the baby-killing in the Bible.&nbsp; You have all tried to dance around the issue, making contradictory statements and hypocritical comparisons.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />Agreed, but as you say, God's knows best...<br>and that is why God came with a new covenant to 'do a new thing'.</div>&nbsp; <br><br>Yes, God knows best.&nbsp; And He knows that killing babies is evil.&nbsp; He knows that He did not order such atrocious and monstrous crimes.&nbsp; He knows that the Biblical stories of genocide are lies against Him written by blasphemers.&nbsp; <br><span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by islamispeace - 01 December 2012 at 11:50am</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Sat, 01 Dec 2012 11:49:03 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? :     Originally posted by islamispeaceI...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24200&amp;PID=170939#170939</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=69566">Caringheart</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 30 November 2012 at 7:27pm<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by islamispeace</strong></em><br /><br />I was comparing the "Word of the &#091;alleged&#093; Torah" and the "Word of the Quran".</div><br>If you were quoting the quran, which verses were they?&nbsp; It looked to me like you were quoting statements made by followers of Muhammad.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by islamispeace</strong></em><br /><br /><br>And that bothers you...but what Moses did is somehow justified?</div><br>Did I ever say I was not bothered by what Moses was ordered by God to do?&nbsp; I was bothered that God would order Abraham to kill his long awaited son also.&nbsp; But who am I?&nbsp; <b>Do I have the mind of God?&nbsp; Am I the maker of all this creation to decide its fate?</b><br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by islamispeace</strong></em><br /><br /><br>Also, let me just correct you for more of your absurd claims regarding Muhammad (pbuh).&nbsp; He conquered his <u><b>enemies</b></u>, not innocent people, unlike the Moses of the Bible.&nbsp; Moreover, he did not kill women and children, unlike the Moses of the Bible.&nbsp; How you have any reason to complain about Muhammad (pbuh) is beyond comprehension.&nbsp;</div><br><br>Muhammad conquered anyone <u>he</u> deemed to be his enemy.&nbsp; Only Muhammad says they were not innocent.&nbsp; He was judge, jury and executioner.&nbsp; I'll bet you those people felt they were innocent and undeserving of what they received at the hand of Muhammad.<br><br><br>Regarding the surah's that you quoted;<br>Yes, there are certain surah's that I can get behind, but then there are others that contradict... and then there's that little problem of abrogation.<br>I mean this next question with all respect for I would like to know the answer... Where does the sharia teaching to cut off hands come from?&nbsp; Is it from the Qur'an?<br>You see, as I have said all along, the problem I have with Muhammad is that there is so much confusion that comes with his message.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by islamispeace</strong></em><br /><br /><br>Also, if you were more knowledgeable about the tax that the Prophet took from non-Muslims, you would know that it was only taken from males, not women and children.&nbsp; Therefore, if taxes were his motivation for not killing women and children, as you claim, then there is no reason he would not have killed them!&nbsp; <br>I know that Muhammad did not seek wealth for himself personally, but those that followed him did, and it supported armies to build the empire.</div><br>Women and children were taken as slaves.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />I am not saying I have the answer, but I do know that the things he did are questionable.</div><br><br>It is because of my <u>lack</u> of ignorance, and my humility, that I do not claim to have all the answers.&nbsp; Whom of us does?&nbsp; But thanks for another attack on my personal character.&nbsp; I do not accuse anyone of ignorance, do I?&nbsp; Are we not all seeking after Truth?<br><br>I could quote you the other surah's and see what order of abrogation they take, but I do not have the time for it.&nbsp; There is the one 'seek them out wherever you may find them, lay in wait, and slay them'.<br>So it depends on which surah's we choose to follow doesn't it?&nbsp; Again, the confusion of Muhammad and his message.<br><br>I have the solid evidence, which I once took the time to provide but they were never allowed to post so I quit investing the time.&nbsp; I have done my homework.&nbsp; I have studied.&nbsp; I hope you can say the same.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br /><blockquote>"But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me." (Luke 19:27)"<br></blockquote>Yes, I have a problem with that scripture.&nbsp; Let it also be noted that none of the Apostles acted in this way.&nbsp; In fact Jesus reprimanded Peter for cutting of the ear of one who came to arrest Jesus.<br></div><br><br>I see you easily ignore this.<br><br>Peace to you, and may we find common ground to respect one another and our individual beliefs.&nbsp; Only when we meet our Maker will we Know.<br>I will not choose belief without questioning for then it is too easy for the deceiver to lead on the way of sure death.<br><br>Salaam and may we all be saved,<br>CH<br><span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by Caringheart - 02 December 2012 at 9:12pm</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Fri, 30 Nov 2012 19:27:39 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? :   Originally posted by honetoBunter, if...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24200&amp;PID=170938#170938</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=69566">Caringheart</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 30 November 2012 at 7:07pm<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by honeto</strong></em><br /><br /><br>Bunter,<br>&nbsp;if they are so bad, why are they there in the first place. According to your guys, Jesus is "love" and that he was with the father since the beginning so what was going on then, as these acts were actually quoted to have been directed by God as commands!<br>And did not Jesus in the NT is quoted to have said that every iota of the law has to be fulfilled. And that he did not come to abolish but to fulfill, didn't he?<br>Oh my..!<br>Hasan</div><br><br>Greetings Hasan,<br><br>'They are in there' because the Jews do nothing to deny or hide their history.&nbsp; For the rest, maybe you will have read my reply to islamispeace, above?<br><br>Peace to you,<br>CH<br>]]>
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   <pubDate>Fri, 30 Nov 2012 19:07:20 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? :    Greetings islamispeace,Since...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24200&amp;PID=170937#170937</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=69566">Caringheart</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 30 November 2012 at 6:47pm<br /><br />Greetings islamispeace,<br><br>Since your reply is so long.&nbsp; I have decided to answer in parts.<br>Again, I appreciate all that you have said.<br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by islamispeace</strong></em><br /><br /><br>This is all irrelevant, as I said before.&nbsp; None of this changes the fact that from your point of view, it was Jesus who would have been the one to have ordered the Israelites to commit genocide and infanticide.&nbsp; Pontificating on a "New Covenant" does not erase the legacy of genocide.</div><br>No it was not Jesus.&nbsp; Jesus was not conceived by God until after it was what was <b>"asked of the Lord"</b>.&nbsp; That was the point of sharing the scriptures.&nbsp; It was not irrelevant.&nbsp; It was God, before the idea of Jesus was even conceived, who spoke to Moses.&nbsp; Jesus is the new covenant... a different aspect of God.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by islamispeace</strong></em><br /><br /><br>But the point is that it should not have to be this way!&nbsp; God is good, not evil.&nbsp; The Biblical stories of genocide are evil.&nbsp; Therefore, they could not have been the result of God's command.&nbsp; In short, God did not command the Israelites to commit genocide.</div><br>God of the old testament is real.&nbsp; I agree God of the old testament can seem evil... yet there are Muslims who defend this same sort of Allah.&nbsp; Who are we to judge God.&nbsp; I am happy God decided to do a new thing and conceive a Son, a new covenant and abandon the old ways... to show a new side of Himself to us.&nbsp; I can see no evil thing in Jesus.<br><br>&nbsp;<div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by islamispeace</strong></em><br /><br /><br>How can you criticize him yet still "accept" him?&nbsp; More importantly, how can you be critical of him if he was only doing the will of God?<br></div><br>How can I criticize you, yet still accept you?&nbsp; I can, because I choose to, knowing that <b>I</b> do not know all.&nbsp; I am not God, <b>nor do I have the mind of God.</b>&nbsp; It helps to know <u>all</u> of God's scriptures.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by islamispeace</strong></em><br /><br /><br>"It did no good..."??&nbsp; Then why did God do it?&nbsp; Wouldn't He have known that it would do "no good"?&nbsp; Are you accusing God of incompetence, astagfirAllah?&nbsp; Be careful you do not blaspheme His Holy Name.</div><br>Again, I do not have the mind of God.&nbsp; I hope to understand all one day but I know that day will not come until I meet my Maker.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by islamispeace</strong></em><br /><br /><br>2.&nbsp; In the end, all who rejected God will once again experience His "wrath"?<br><br>Furthermore, how can any of us "hurt" God?&nbsp; As the Quran says, God does not need us.&nbsp; Rather, it is us who need Him:</div><br>They will have a chance to see the Truth in Jesus during the time of the tribulation.&nbsp; There will still be a chance for redemption.<br><br>You don't think it hurts God to see His children, His creation, all astray, and destroying the beautiful gift which He gave to them... the gift of the earth, the moon, the stars, the sky, the sun, all nature, and the gift of life?<br>He does not need us, but He created us, and you think He does not love His creation?&nbsp; That He does not hurt to see His creation hurt?&nbsp; Why do you think satan is trying to destroy God's creation if not to hurt Him?<br><br>I agree it is us that need God.&nbsp; He gives His law to protect us.<br><br>I must rest here.<br><br>Salaam for now,<br>CH<br><span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by Caringheart - 02 December 2012 at 9:09pm</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Fri, 30 Nov 2012 18:47:30 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? :     Originally posted by islamispeaceIn...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24200&amp;PID=170934#170934</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=69566">Caringheart</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 30 November 2012 at 6:07pm<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by islamispeace</strong></em><br /><br /><br>In any case, the punishment of the Bani Qurayza pales in comparison to the actual genocide in the Bible.&nbsp;</div><br>I think the only difference is that the Jewish history is honest about its history and does nothing to cover it up... as are the Christians honest about the despicable things done in the name of Christianity.<br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by islamispeace</strong></em><br /><br /><br>On the other hand, the Canaanites had done nothing to the Israelites to be wiped off the face of the earth.&nbsp; <br></div><br>Agreed, but as you say, God's knows best...<br>and that is why God came with a new covenant to '<b>do a new thing'</b>.<br><span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by Caringheart - 02 December 2012 at 9:07pm</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Fri, 30 Nov 2012 18:07:27 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? :  Originally posted by bunter Originally...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24200&amp;PID=170926#170926</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=59438">honeto</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 30 November 2012 at 3:43pm<br /><br /> <div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by bunter</strong></em><br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by islamispeace</strong></em><br /><br />This is the first time I have heard a Christian actually claim that this was not genocide.  All I can say is...wow.  Apparently, it is not genocide when you kill off entire cities and nations, slaughtering even the children and babies!  What is it if not genocide...?By the way, the genocide started with Moses (pbuh) and was continued by his successors, including Joshua.  What was that you said about reading the Bible carefully to see what it actually says? </div> <br />The position is that the Bible does describe events where large numbers are killed. In many cases one can rationalise what is done but that i think is unwise and the premier emotion is one of sorrow. But in Christian and Jewish theology we say those stories are closed, that is we acknowledge they happened but they are not examples to be followed. We may read the stories and there may be lessons we can learn but that is all.<br /><br />In Islam there have been many genocides from the massacre of the Jews in medina to Darfur. The question is do Muslims feel a deep sence of sorrow for these events and/or use them as examples to follow?<br /></div> <br /><br />Bunter,<br />by the way what lessons do you learn from those stories, and who declared that those are not to be followed, and if they are so bad, why are they there in the first place. According to your guys, Jesus is "love" and that he was with the father since the beginning so what was going on then, as these acts were actually quoted to have been directed by God as commands!<br />And did not Jesus in the NT is quoted to have said that every iota of the law has to be fulfilled. And that he did not come to abolish but to fulfill, didn't he?<br />Oh my..!<br />Hasan]]>
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   <pubDate>Fri, 30 Nov 2012 15:43:31 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? : In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent,...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=53418">islamispeace</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 30 November 2012 at 3:09pm<br /><br />In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...<br><br>Caringheart, you said:<br><br><div class="BBquote">Greetings Islamispeace, I appreciate all that you have said.<div ="msg" style=":left; overflow:auto;">   <br></div></div><br><br>Well that's great, but did you understand and contemplate the simple truth or did you cast it aside like so many others?&nbsp; Let' see.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />15 The Lord thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;<br>16 <b>For this is what you asked of the Lord your God</b> at Horeb on the day of the assembly when you said, “Let us not hear the voice of the Lord our God nor see this great fire anymore, or we will die.”<br>17 And the Lord said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken.<br>18 <b>I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him</b>.<br>19 I myself will call to account anyone who does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name.<br>20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.&nbsp; <br>(Deuteronomy 18, I have used both KJV and NIV to make reading easier without detracting from the true message)<br><br>and Deuteronomy 34<br><blockquote>10 Since then, no prophet has risen in Israel like Moses, whom the Lord knew face to face, 11 <b>who did all those signs and wonders the Lord sent him to do</b> in Egypt—to Pharaoh and to all his officials and to his whole land. 12 <b>For no one has ever shown the mighty power or performed the awesome deeds that Moses did <u>in the sight of all Israel</u>.</b><br></blockquote>&nbsp;... until Jesus.&nbsp; Jesus is this "new thing" which God decides to do, because the people asked for it.<br>37 Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. 38 But if I do them, <b>even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.”</b> 39 Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.&nbsp; - the words of Jesus.</div><br><br>This is all irrelevant, as I said before.&nbsp; None of this changes the fact that from your point of view, it was Jesus who would have been the one to have ordered the Israelites to commit genocide and infanticide.&nbsp; Pontificating on a "New Covenant" does not erase the legacy of genocide.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />You are correct, and this is why so many people reject religion... reject the notion of God.<br>and as I said...<br>"Most followers of Jesus also have trouble reconciling with what went on in the old testament... but that is why they do not follow the old testament but the Gospel... the new covenant."</div><br><br>But the point is that it should not have to be this way!&nbsp; God is good, not evil.&nbsp; The Biblical stories of genocide are evil.&nbsp; Therefore, they could not have been the result of God's command.&nbsp; In short, God did not command the Israelites to commit genocide.&nbsp; This is a lie against God which the Judeo-Christian tradition has perpetuated for centuries.&nbsp; <br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />Honestly... yes, I am.&nbsp; I only accept Moses because it was the first appearance of God to the people, and then in the later scriptures, more than once, God says that He is revealing that He will do a new thing, and it will not be understood until its time arrives.</div><br><br>I expected this sort of answer..self-contradictory.&nbsp; You say you are critical of Moses (pbuh) but then you say that you still "accept" him because it was God's "first appearance".&nbsp; How can you criticize him yet still "accept" him?&nbsp; More importantly, how can you be critical of him if he was only doing the will of God?<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />I believe in Jesus as the new covenant... that God of the old testament and of the first followers... i.e., Abraham et.al. ... God of the old testament was a God who visited His wrath, time and again, on His people, and it did no good...</div>&nbsp; <br><br>"It did no good..."??&nbsp; Then why did God do it?&nbsp; Wouldn't He have known that it would do "no good"?&nbsp; Are you accusing God of incompetence, astagfirAllah?&nbsp; Be careful you do not blaspheme His Holy Name.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />so yes, I believe God was doing just as He said He would do... He was "doing a new thing" when He decided to come to the people in human form, to show rather than His wrath, but the depth of His Love.&nbsp; It is this Love that leads the followers of Jesus to God.&nbsp; 'Greater love has no one than this... that he lay down his life for another.'&nbsp; It is in seeing this great love in the sacrifice God made for us that we are led to Love in return, and Love leads one into obedience, out of a desire not to cause hurt to the One who loves us so much.</div><br><br>What good is this gesture of "love" when:<br><br>1.&nbsp; For centuries prior, there was only "wrath", pain and violence;<br><br>2.&nbsp; In the end, all who rejected God will once again experience His "wrath"?<br><br>Furthermore, how can any of us "hurt" God?&nbsp; As the Quran says, God does not need us.&nbsp; Rather, it is us who need Him:<br><br><font color="#333300">"O ye men! It is ye that have need of Allah: but Allah is the One Free of all wants, worthy of all praise." (3:15)</font><br><br>Therefore, whether we accept Him or not, He does not need anything from us.&nbsp; We reject Him to our own detriment.&nbsp; <br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />Your comparisons are like comparing apples with oranges because it does not compare the word of the torah with the word of the quran.</div><br><br>Well of course it is "like comparing apples with oranges"!&nbsp; That's what I was saying!&nbsp; There is no comparison between the two.&nbsp; <br><br>And contrary to your claim, I was comparing the "Word of the &#091;alleged&#093; Torah" and the "Word of the Quran".&nbsp; The verses describing the genocide are from the alleged Torah.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />And regardless of what was said, the followers of Muhammad did the things boldened above.&nbsp; Muhammad was well known for conquering and taking the conquered as slaves.</div>&nbsp; <br><br>And that bothers you...but what Moses did is somehow justified?&nbsp; Wow...<br><br>Also, let me just correct you for more of your absurd claims regarding Muhammad (pbuh).&nbsp; He conquered his <u><b>enemies</b></u>, not innocent people, unlike the Moses of the Bible.&nbsp; Moreover, he did not kill women and children, unlike the Moses of the Bible.&nbsp; How you have any reason to complain about Muhammad (pbuh) is beyond comprehension.&nbsp; <br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />What I mean by Muhammad revives the old testament ways is the 'eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth', kind of thinking.</div><br><br>Actually, the Quran declares that when God revealed the true Torah to the Jews, it included a stipulation to the "an eye for an eye" maxim:<br><br><font color="#333300">"We ordained therein for them: "Life for life, eye for eye, nose or nose, ear for ear, tooth for tooth, and wounds equal for equal." <u><b>But if any one remits the retaliation by way of charity, it is an act of atonement for himself</b></u>. And if any fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (No better than) wrong-doers." (2:45)</font><br><br>So, while God allowed the victims of injustice to demand justice, He also stipulated that it was best to forgive, because forgiveness would atone for their own sins.&nbsp; This teaching was also applied to Muslims:<br><br><font color="#333300">"The recompense for an injury is an injury equal thereto (in degree): <u><b>but if a person forgives and makes reconciliation, his reward is due from Allah</b></u>: for (Allah) loveth not those who do wrong." (42:40)</font><br><br>There is also a famous hadith of the Prophet which stipulates the importance of forgiveness:<br><font color="#333300"><br>"Mu’adh ibn Anas reported: The Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him, said, “The best of virtues is that you maintain relations with one who cuts you off, that you give to one who deprives you, and that you pardon one who insults you.”" (Musnad Ahmad, Number 15191)</font><br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />To some extent Muhammad understood mercy, but not entirely.&nbsp; He was willing not to kill, but to subjugate.&nbsp; This was also to his benefit since he could then collect taxes from those whom he subjugated.&nbsp; You can't collect anything from a dead man.&nbsp; So we can question his motivation.</div><br><br>This is more nonsense.&nbsp; It is well-known that the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) lived a simple life of poverty and gave away all his possessions to others.&nbsp; So, if he was interested in acquiring wealth which was at his fingertips, giving it away would not be prudent.&nbsp; Here is the proof that his "motivation" was not wealth, as you so ignorantly assumed:<br><font color="#333300"><br>"Narrated 'Amr bin Al-Harith: The Prophet did not leave anything (after his death) except his arms, a white mule, and a (piece of) land which he had given as Sadaqa." (Sahih Bukhari, Book 53, Number 330)</font><br><br><font color="#333300">"Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah Apostle said, "If I had gold equal to the mountain of Uhud, it would not please me that anything of it should remain with me after three nights (i.e., I would spend all of it in Allah's Cause) except what I would keep for repaying debts."" (Sahih Bukhari, Book 76, Number 452)</font><br><br><font color="#333300">"Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "Riches does not mean, having a great amount of property, but riches is self-contentment."" (Sahih Bukhari, Book 76, Number 453)</font><br><font color="#333300"><br>"Narrated 'Aisha: The bed mattress of the Prophet was made of a leather case stuffed with palm fibres." (Sahih Bukhari, Book 76, Number 463)</font><br><br>Also, if you were more knowledgeable about the tax that the Prophet took from non-Muslims, you would know that it was only taken from males, not women and children.&nbsp; Therefore, if taxes were his motivation for not killing women and children, as you claim, then there is no reason he would not have killed them!&nbsp; <br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />I am not saying I have the answer, but I do know that the things he did are questionable.</div><br><br>You certainly don't have the answers because of your ignorance and bias.&nbsp; <br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />And the quran instructs to smite the necks of all unbelievers(anyone who will not take the shahada, anyone who does not believe in Muhammad, even though they believe in the One God), this is no different that the Israelites being commanded to kill all the Canaanites, classifying them all as pagan idolators(i.e., as evil people)... same thing.&nbsp; Islam views anyone non-muslim the same way the Israelites were told to treat the Canaanites.&nbsp; Old covenant ways vs. new covenant ways.&nbsp; Islam ignores the 'new thing' which God brought.</div><br><br>I can see you are getting more and more desperate to make Muhammad (pbuh) seem just as bloodthirsty as the Moses of the Bible, whom you hypocritically accept.&nbsp; Here is what the Quran actually says:<br><br><font color="#333300">"Therefore, when ye meet the Unbelievers (in fight), smite at their necks; At length, when ye have thoroughly subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them):<u><b> thereafter (is the time for) either generosity or ransom: Until the war lays down its burdens</b></u>. Thus (are ye commanded): but if it had been Allah's Will, He could certainly have exacted retribution from them (Himself); but (He lets you fight) in order to test you, some with others. But those who are slain in the Way of Allah,- He will never let their deeds be lost." (47:4)<br><br>"But if the enemy incline towards peace, do thou (also) incline towards peace, and trust in Allah: for He is One that heareth and knoweth (all things)."&nbsp; (8:61)</font><br><br>I think we can see a pattern emerging in your posts.&nbsp; You know nothing about Islam or the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) and you make accusations which you don't actually support with solid evidence.&nbsp; <br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br /><blockquote>"But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me." (Luke 19:27)"<br></blockquote>Yes, I have a problem with that scripture.&nbsp; Let it also be noted that none of the Apostles acted in this way.&nbsp; In fact Jesus reprimanded Peter for cutting of the ear of one who came to arrest Jesus.<br><br>I honestly can not understand the 'Gill's exposition'.&nbsp; If I can find the time and energy to delve into it at another time I will.</div><br><br>The point is that this "New Covenant" has an expiration date.&nbsp; After this, says the Bible, Jesus will revert to the old ways and will command his followers (which includes you) to kill all who reject him.&nbsp; Therefore, this "love" you speak of is not for all times and it is conditional.<br><br>And Allah knows best.<br><br>Walaikum as-salaam.<br>]]>
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   <pubDate>Fri, 30 Nov 2012 15:09:11 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? : In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent,...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=53418">islamispeace</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 30 November 2012 at 1:19pm<br /><br />In the Name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful...<br><br>Bunter, you said:<br><br><div class="BBquote">The position is that the Bible does describe events where large numbers are killed. In many cases one can rationalise what is done but that i think is unwise and the premier emotion is one of sorrow. But in Christian and Jewish theology we say those stories are closed, that is we acknowledge they happened but they are not examples to be followed. We may read the stories and there may be lessons we can learn but that is all.</div><br><br>One cannot "rationalize" the irrational.&nbsp; Killing babies is not only irrational, it is evil.&nbsp; God is not evil.&nbsp; God is merciful, compassionate, just and fair.&nbsp; In short, God is good.&nbsp; By "acknowledging" the stories of infanticide, Jews and Christians are acknowledging evil, but also accepting a lie against God.&nbsp; God did not order those crimes, if they even happened.&nbsp; There are no "lessons" to be learned from reading these stories.&nbsp; If you can name them, please be my guest.&nbsp; I, for one, cannot fathom what bizarre "lesson" one can gain from baby-killing.&nbsp; <br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Bunter</strong></em><br /><br />In Islam there have been many genocides from the massacre of the Jews in medina to Darfur. The question is do Muslims feel a deep sence of sorrow for these events and/or use them as examples to follow?</div>&nbsp; <br><br>What on earth does Darfur have to do with this?&nbsp; I can understand your reference to the Bani Qurayza incident, but Darfur?&nbsp; <br><br>In any case, the punishment of the Bani Qurayza pales in comparison to the actual genocide in the Bible.&nbsp; The ones that were killed of the Bani Qurayza were their fighters, not the women and children.&nbsp; Therefore, it is like comparing "apples to oranges", as Caringheart puts it.<br><br>Furthermore, the Bani Qurayza were only punished after their betrayal of Muhammad (pbuh) during the Battle of the Trench.&nbsp; On the other hand, the Canaanites had done nothing to the Israelites to be wiped off the face of the earth.&nbsp; <br><br>And Allah knows best.<br>]]>
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   <pubDate>Fri, 30 Nov 2012 13:19:35 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? :   Originally posted by Mahdi...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=53418">islamispeace</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 30 November 2012 at 1:08pm<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke</strong></em><br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by islamispeace</strong></em><br /><br />Placid, your response is a typical Christian response.&nbsp; First, you say that "loving God and loving your neighbor as yourself" is the way to go, yet at the same time, you cannot bring yourself around to categorically condemn the horrific genocide in the land of Canaan that the Bible claims God (Jesus, in your view) commanded.&nbsp; Also, it wasn't just the Amalekites which were "annihilated".&nbsp; It was also the Midianites...and the Hittites...and the Amorites...and the Perizzites...and so on...What I find even more ironic is the fact that the same Christians who so enthusiastically defend the Biblically-sanctioned genocide also have the audacity to actually criticize the prophet Muhammad (pbuh) for fighting against his enemies and killing them!&nbsp; Yet, Muhammad (pbuh) did not kill women, children, the elderly, or farm animals!&nbsp; I don't know if you are one of these Christians, but it is an all too common hypocrisy amongst many of your brethren.&nbsp; <br><br></div> <br><br>somebody should add a like button in this forum<br></div><br><br>Jazak Allah Khair, brother.&nbsp; <br>]]>
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   <pubDate>Fri, 30 Nov 2012 13:08:41 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? :   Originally posted by honetoJakallah...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=53418">islamispeace</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 29 November 2012 at 6:01pm<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by honeto</strong></em><br /><br />Jakallah brother, great replies to all three above.<br>Truth stands out clear from error and cover ups.<br>Hasan</div><br><br>Ameen!<br>]]>
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   <pubDate>Thu, 29 Nov 2012 18:01:02 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? :  Originally posted by islamispeaceThis...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=66457">bunter</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 29 November 2012 at 1:51pm<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by islamispeace</strong></em><br /><br />This is the first time I have heard a Christian actually claim that this was not genocide.  All I can say is...wow.  Apparently, it is not genocide when you kill off entire cities and nations, slaughtering even the children and babies!  What is it if not genocide...?By the way, the genocide started with Moses (pbuh) and was continued by his successors, including Joshua.  What was that you said about reading the Bible carefully to see what it actually says? </div> <br />The position is that the Bible does describe events where large numbers are killed. In many cases one can rationalise what is done but that i think is unwise and the premier emotion is one of sorrow. But in Christian and Jewish theology we say those stories are closed, that is we acknowledge they happened but they are not examples to be followed. We may read the stories and there may be lessons we can learn but that is all.<br /><br />In Islam there have been many genocides from the massacre of the Jews in medina to Darfur. The question is do Muslims feel a deep sence of sorrow for these events and/or use them as examples to follow?<br /><span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by bunter - 29 November 2012 at 1:54pm</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Thu, 29 Nov 2012 13:51:41 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? : Jakallah brother, great replies...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=59438">honeto</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 29 November 2012 at 10:47am<br /><br />Jakallah brother, great replies to all three above.<br />Truth stands out clear from error and cover ups.<br />Hasan]]>
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   <pubDate>Thu, 29 Nov 2012 10:47:58 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? : Hi Honeto,Quote: &#8216;so according...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71448">Placid</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 29 November 2012 at 5:49am<br /><br />Hi Honeto,&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<br /><br />Quote: ‘so according to your book, God ordered killings of man and women who do not believe as you do.’<br /><br />Response: --- By now you will have read my response to Islam.<br />However, I want to ask you, “What is written in your book?”<br /><br />Surah 6:6 See they not how many of those before them We did destroy? - generations We had established on the earth, in strength such as We have not given to you - for whom We poured out rain from the skies in abundance, and gave (fertile) streams flowing beneath their (feet): yet for their sins We destroyed them, and raised in their wake fresh generations (to succeed them).<br />10:13 We destroyed the generations before you when they did wrong; and their messengers (from Allah) came unto them with clear proofs (of His Sovereignty) but they would not believe. Thus do We reward the guilty folk.<br />17:16 When We decide to destroy a population, We (first) send a definite order to those among them who are given the good things of this life and yet transgress; so that the word is proved true against them: then (it is) We destroy them utterly.<br />18:59 And (all) those townships! We destroyed them when they did wrong, and We appointed a fixed time for their destruction.<br />21:95 And there is a ban upon any community which We have destroyed: that they shall not return.<br />22:45 How many a township have We destroyed while it was sinful, so that it lieth (to this day) in ruins, and (how many) a deserted well and lofty tower!<br />25:36 Then We said: Go together unto the folk who have denied Our revelations. Then We destroyed them, a complete destruction.<br />25:39 To each one We set forth Parables and examples; and each one We broke to utter annihilation (for their sins).<br />29:31 When Our Apostles came to Abraham with the good news, they said: "We are indeed going to destroy the people of this township: for truly they are (addicted to) crime."<br />29:40 Each one of them We seized for his crime: of them, against some We sent a violent tornado (with showers of stones); some were caught by a (mighty) Blast; some We caused the earth to swallow up; and some We drowned (in the waters): It was not Allah Who injured (or oppressed) them: They injured (and oppressed) their own souls.<br />32:26 Does it not teach them a lesson, how many generations We destroyed before them, in whose dwellings they (now) go to and fro? Verily in that are Signs: Do they not then listen?<br />38:3 How many generations before them did We destroy? In the end they cried (for mercy)- when there was no longer time for being saved!<br />50:36  But how many generations before them did We destroy (for their sins), - stronger in power than they? Then did they wander through the land: was there any place of escape (for them)?<br /><br />God was merciful and gave them warning, or an example, --- but sin reaches a limit, --- and that is what is coming again, is it not?<br /><br /><br />Placid<br /><br />]]>
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   <pubDate>Thu, 29 Nov 2012 05:49:23 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? :  Originally posted by islamispeace Originally...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24200&amp;PID=170840#170840</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=67758">Mahdi The Seeke</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 29 November 2012 at 5:48am<br /><br /> <div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by islamispeace</strong></em><br /><br /><br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />Greetings Islamispeace,It is because with Jesus came a new covenant... God was "doing a new thing".Muhammad's teaching is a throw back to the old testament ways.Most followers of Jesus also have trouble reconciling with what went on in the old testament... but that is why they do not follow the old testament but the Gospel... the good news... the new testament... the new covenant.Salaam,Caringheart<br /><br /></div>Caringheart, there are so many things wrong with your post, I don't know where to begin.  First, you say that Jesus came with a new covenant...that "God was doing a new thing".  But you believe Jesus is God.  Therefore, it was Jesus who ordered the merciless genocides which are described in graphic detail in the so-called "Old Testament" (Tanakh).  Nothing can change that.  So what if he came with a "new covenant"?  How does that change the fact that under his orders, the Israelites murdered hundreds of thousands of people, including <u><strong>innocent children and babies</strong></u>?  What sort of twisted individual is not disturbed by these monstrous verses?  Then you say the utterly ridiculous claim that "Muhammad's teaching is a throw back to the old testament ways."  Wow!  Really?  This is the good old Christian hypocrisy I was talking about.  Before I refute this absurd statement, inshaAllah, I would like to give you the opportunity to prove that you are not a hypocrite, like so many of your brethren.  <strong>If you think that Muhammad (pbuh) was so wrong for fighting against his enemies and killing them to protect his people, then do you also feel that Moses (pbuh) was wrong for fighting the Cannanites...and butchering all of them?</strong>  <strong>If you are critical of Muhammad (pbuh), are you also criticial of Moses (pbuh)?</strong>  Here is your chance to remove the stench of hypocrisy from yourself.Now, onto your claim that "Muhammad's teaching is a throw back to the old testament ways".  I think the best way to refute this utterly asinine statement is to make a simple comparison with the "Old Testament ways" and the Ways of Muhammad (pbuh):&lt;span id="en-NIV-5445" ="text="" deut-20-17"=""&gt;&lt;span id="en-NIV-5445" ="text="" deut-20-17"=""&gt;<font color="#0000CC">Old Testament Ways - "Completely destroy them—the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites—as the &lt;span style="font-variant: small-caps" ="small-caps"="">Lord&lt;/span> your God has commanded you." </font>&lt;/span&gt;<font color="#0000CC">(Deuteronomy 20:17)</font>&lt;/span&gt;<font color="#333300">Ways of Muhammad (pbuh) - "Allah<br /> forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) <br />Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly <br />with them: for Allah loveth those who are just." (Surah al-Mumtahana, 60:8)</font><font color="#000099">Old Testament Ways - <font color="#000099">&lt;span id="en-NIV-4971" ="text="" deut-2-32"="">When Sihon and all his army came out to meet us in battle at Jahaz,&lt;/span> &lt;span id="en-NIV-4972" ="text="" deut-2-33"="">&lt;sup ="versenum"="">33 </sup>the &lt;span style="font-variant: small-caps" ="small-caps"="">Lord&lt;/span> our God delivered him over to us and we struck him down, together with his sons and his whole army.&lt;/span> &lt;span id="en-NIV-4973" ="text="" deut-2-34"="">&lt;sup ="versenum"="">34 </sup>At that time we took all his towns and completely destroyed them—men, women and children. We left no survivors.&lt;/span> </font></font>&lt;span id="en-NIV-4974" ="text="" deut-2-35"=""&gt;<font color="#000099">&lt;sup ="versenum"="">35 </sup>But the livestock and the plunder from the towns we had captured we carried off for ourselves. (Deuteronomy 2:32-34)</font><font color="#333300">Ways of Muhammad (pbuh) - "</font>&lt;/span&gt;<font color="#333300">&lt;span id="en-NIV-4974" ="text="" deut-2-35"="">Hanzala Al-Katib reported: We went on an expedition with the Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him, and we passed by a woman who had been killed<a href="http://www.dailyhadith&#111;nline.com/2012/09/17/hadith-&#111;n-jihad-the-prophet-forbade-killing-women-workers-or-any&#111;ne-who-is-not-fighting/" target="_blank"></a> and the people were gathered around her. They dispersed and he said, “<strong>She was not among those who were fighting</strong>.” Then he told a man to return to Khalid ibn Al-Waleed and say to him, “<strong>Verily, the Messenger of Allah has commanded you, saying: do not kill children or workers</strong>.”"&lt;/span> (Sunan Ibn Majah, Book of Jihad, Number 2842)</font><font color="#000099">Old Testament Ways - "&lt;span id="en-NIV-4979" ="text="" deut-3-3"="">So the &lt;span style="font-variant: small-caps" ="small-caps"="">Lord&lt;/span> our God also gave into our hands Og king of Bashan and all his army. We struck them down, leaving no survivors.&lt;/span> &lt;span id="en-NIV-4980" ="text="" deut-3-4"="">&lt;sup ="versenum"="">4 </sup>At that time we took all his cities. There was not one of the sixty cities that we did not take from them—the whole region of Argob, Og’s kingdom in Bashan.&lt;/span> &lt;span id="en-NIV-4981" ="text="" deut-3-5"="">&lt;sup ="versenum"="">5 </sup>All these cities were fortified with high walls and with gates and bars, and there were also a great many unwalled villages.&lt;/span> &lt;span id="en-NIV-4982" ="text="" deut-3-6"="">&lt;sup ="versenum"="">6 </sup>We completely destroyed<a href="" target="_blank">a</a>>"&gt;&#091;<a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuter&#111;nomy+3&versi&#111;n=NIV#fen-NIV-4982a" target="_blank">a</a>> them, as we had done with Sihon king of Heshbon, destroying<a href="" target="_blank">b</a>>"&gt;&#091;<a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuter&#111;nomy+3&versi&#111;n=NIV#fen-NIV-4982b" target="_blank">b</a>> every city—men, women and children.&lt;/span> &lt;span id="en-NIV-4983" ="text="" deut-3-7"="">&lt;sup ="versenum"="">7 </sup>But all the livestock and the plunder from their cities we carried off for ourselves.&lt;/span>" (Deueteronomy 3:3-7)</font><font color="#333300">Ways of Muhammad (pbuh) - "Narrated Anas ibn Malik: The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Go in <br />Allah's name, trusting in Allah, and adhering to the religion of Allah's<br /> Apostle. do not kill a decrepit old man, o a young infant, or a child, or a woman; do not be dishonest about booty, but collect your spoils, do right and act well, for Allah loves those who do well." (Sunan Abu Dawud, Book 14, Number 2608)</font>We could go on and on, but I think the point has been made.  The "Old Testament ways", as you put them, are completely different from the Ways of Muhammad (pbuh) and the Ways of Islam.  Only a fool would think the two are comparable.  As for the "New Covenant", it seems that it will last only until the return of Jesus (pbuh), after which teachings like "turn the other cheek" and "love your enemy" will go out the window:<font color="#000099">"&lt;span ="woj"="">But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me.’”&lt;/span>" (Luke 19:27)</font>"<a href="http://gill.biblecommenter.com/luke/19.htm" target="_blank">Gill's Exposition of Entire the Bible</a>" comments on this verse:"<font color="#0000CC">bring hither, and slay them before me; which had its accomplishment in <br />the destruction of Jerusalem, when multitudes of them were slain with <br />the sword, both with their own, and with their enemies; and to this the <br />parable has a special respect, and of which Christ more largely <br />discourses in this chapter; see <a href="http://bible.cc/luke/19-41.htm" target="_blank">Luke 19:41</a><br /><u><strong> though it is true of all natural men, that they are enemies to Christ; <br />and so of all negligent and slothful professors, and ministers of the <br />word, who, when Christ shall come a second time, of which his coming to <br />destroy the Jewish nation was an emblem and pledge, will be punished <br />with everlasting destruction by him</strong></u>; and then all other enemies will be <br />slain and destroyed, sin, Satan, the world, and death:</font>"So much for the "New Covenant".  <br /></div> <br />like <img src="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/smileys/smiley32.gif" border="0" align="middle" /> ]]>
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   <pubDate>Thu, 29 Nov 2012 05:48:39 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? :  Originally posted by islamispeacePlacid,...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24200&amp;PID=170839#170839</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=67758">Mahdi The Seeke</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 29 November 2012 at 5:38am<br /><br /> <div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by islamispeace</strong></em><br /><br />Placid, your response is a typical Christian response.  First, you say that "loving God and loving your neighbor as yourself" is the way to go, yet at the same time, you cannot bring yourself around to categorically condemn the horrific genocide in the land of Canaan that the Bible claims God (Jesus, in your view) commanded.  Also, it wasn't just the Amalekites which were "annihilated".  It was also the Midianites...and the Hittites...and the Amorites...and the Perizzites...and so on...What I find even more ironic is the fact that the same Christians who so enthusiastically defend the Biblically-sanctioned genocide also have the audacity to actually criticize the prophet Muhammad (pbuh) for fighting against his enemies and killing them!  Yet, Muhammad (pbuh) did not kill women, children, the elderly, or farm animals!  I don't know if you are one of these Christians, but it is an all too common hypocrisy amongst many of your brethren.  <br /><br /></div> <br /><br />somebody should add a like button in this forum<br />]]>
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   <pubDate>Thu, 29 Nov 2012 05:38:56 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? :   Originally posted by islamispeaceIf...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24200&amp;PID=170832#170832</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=69566">Caringheart</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 28 November 2012 at 8:50pm<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by islamispeace</strong></em><br /><br /><br>If that is the case, then one could argue that such behavior should be done even today.&nbsp; If the idea is to "save" them from Hell, then all children living in the modern world, where sin is everywhere, should be killed.&nbsp; Furthermore, who is to say that those children could not be taught to worship the One God? &nbsp;&nbsp; <br><br><br>And as far as the cities that were punished, they were destroyed by <b>God Himself</b>, not by an army under His command.&nbsp; God decides who lives and who dies, not humans. <br></div><br><br>Greetings islamispeace,<br><br>I like these things you say.&nbsp; It shows that we are on common ground. <img src="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/smileys/smiley1.gif" border="0" align="absmiddle" alt="Smile" /><br><br>Salaam,<br>CH<br>]]>
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   <pubDate>Wed, 28 Nov 2012 20:50:04 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? :        Greetings Islamispeace,I...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24200&amp;PID=170831#170831</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=69566">Caringheart</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 28 November 2012 at 8:02pm<br /><br />Greetings Islamispeace,<br><br>I appreciate all that you have said.<br><br>15 The Lord thy God will raise up unto thee a Prophet from the midst of thee, of thy brethren, like unto me; unto him ye shall hearken;<br>16 <b>For this is what you asked of the Lord your God</b> at Horeb on the day of the assembly when you said, “Let us not hear the voice of the Lord our God nor see this great fire anymore, or we will die.”<br>17 And the Lord said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken.<br>18 <b>I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him</b>.<br>19 I myself will call to account anyone who does not listen to my words that the prophet speaks in my name.<br>20 But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.&nbsp; <br>(Deuteronomy 18, I have used both KJV and NIV to make reading easier without detracting from the true message)<br><br>and Deuteronomy 34<br><blockquote>10 Since then, no prophet has risen in Israel like Moses, whom the Lord knew face to face, 11 <b>who did all those signs and wonders the Lord sent him to do</b> in Egypt—to Pharaoh and to all his officials and to his whole land. 12 <b>For no one has ever shown the mighty power or performed the awesome deeds that Moses did <u>in the sight of all Israel</u>.</b><br></blockquote>&nbsp;... until Jesus.&nbsp; Jesus is this "new thing" which God decides to do, because the people asked for it.<br><blockquote>37 Do not believe me unless I do the works of my Father. 38 But if I do them, <b>even though you do not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.”</b> 39 Again they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.&nbsp; - the words of Jesus.<br></blockquote><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by islamispeace</strong></em><br /><br /><br>&nbsp; What sort of twisted individual is not disturbed by these monstrous verses?&nbsp;</div><br>You are correct, and this is why so many people reject religion... reject the notion of God.<br>and as I said...<br><blockquote>"Most followers of Jesus also have trouble reconciling with what went on in the old testament... but that is why they do not follow the old testament but the Gospel... the new covenant."<br></blockquote><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by islamispeace</strong></em><br /><br /><b>If you are critical of Muhammad (pbuh), are you also criticial of Moses (pbuh)?</b>&nbsp;</div><br>Honestly... yes, I am.&nbsp; I only accept Moses because it was the first appearance of God to the people, and then in the later scriptures, more than once, God says that He is revealing that He will do a new thing, and it will not be understood until its time arrives.&nbsp; I believe in Jesus as the new covenant... that God of the old testament and of the first followers... i.e., Abraham et.al. ... God of the old testament was a God who visited His wrath, time and again, on His people, and it did no good... so yes, I believe God was doing just as He said He would do... He was "doing a new thing" when He decided to come to the people in human form, to show rather than His wrath, but the depth of His Love.&nbsp; It is this Love that leads the followers of Jesus to God.&nbsp; <b>'Greater love has no one than this... that he lay down his life for another.'</b>&nbsp; It is in seeing this great love in the sacrifice God made for us that we are led to Love in return, and Love leads one into obedience, out of a desire not to cause hurt to the One who loves us so much.<br><br>Regarding this;<br><blockquote>Old Testament Ways - When Sihon and all his army came out to meet us in battle at Jahaz, 33 the Lord our God delivered him over to us and we struck him down, together with his sons and his whole army. 34 At that time we took all his towns and completely destroyed them—men, women and children. We left no survivors. 35 But <b>the livestock and the plunder from the towns we had captured we carried off for ourselves</b>. (Deuteronomy 2:32-34)<br></blockquote>Your comparisons are like comparing apples with oranges because it does not compare the word of the torah with the word of the quran.&nbsp; And regardless of what was said, the followers of Muhammad did the things boldened above.&nbsp; Muhammad was well known for conquering and taking the conquered as slaves.<br><br>What I mean by Muhammad revives the old testament ways is the 'eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth', kind of thinking.&nbsp; Jesus taught if anyone smite the one cheek, offer him the other... Jesus taught, whoever is without sin may cast the first stone... and 'go and sin no more', you are forgiven your sins.&nbsp; Jesus taught mercy.&nbsp; To some extent Muhammad understood mercy, but not entirely.&nbsp; He was willing not to kill, but to subjugate.&nbsp; This was also to his benefit since he could then collect taxes from those whom he subjugated.&nbsp; You can't collect anything from a dead man.&nbsp; So we can question his motivation.&nbsp; I am not saying I have the answer, but I do know that the things he did are questionable.&nbsp; And the quran instructs to smite the necks of all unbelievers(anyone who will not take the shahada, anyone who does not believe in Muhammad, even though they believe in the One God), this is no different that the Israelites being commanded to kill all the Canaanites, classifying them all as pagan idolators(i.e., as evil people)... same thing.&nbsp; Islam views anyone non-muslim the same way the Israelites were told to treat the Canaanites.&nbsp; Old covenant ways vs. new covenant ways.&nbsp; Islam ignores the 'new thing' which God brought.<br><blockquote>"But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me." (Luke 19:27)"<br></blockquote>Yes, I have a problem with that scripture.&nbsp; Let it also be noted that none of the Apostles acted in this way.&nbsp; In fact Jesus reprimanded Peter for cutting of the ear of one who came to arrest Jesus.<br><br>I honestly can not understand the 'Gill's exposition'.&nbsp; If I can find the time and energy to delve into it at another time I will.<br><br>Salaam,<br>CH<br><br><font size="1">We'll see if this is allowed to post.</font><br><span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by Caringheart - 02 December 2012 at 9:17pm</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Wed, 28 Nov 2012 20:02:25 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? :   Originally posted by Salaam_ErinExcept...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24200&amp;PID=170821#170821</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=53418">islamispeace</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 28 November 2012 at 2:18pm<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Salaam_Erin</strong></em><br /><br />Except that it wasn't a war of genocide but a war of liberation.  The Book of Joshua was written in a high context culture which knew that Canaan was part of the Egyptian Empire and that Canaan was ruled by pro-Egyptian Quisling Kings.  Most of the Canaanites had been exiled in Egypt and came back with the Israelites.  The Exodus led by Moses did not have Israelites in it.  And even then if you study the Book of Joshua carefully, Joshua's battles were disabling operations and not genocide.  He only destroyed three cities, Jericho, Ai and Hazor.  They then kept going back to Gilgal.  After Joshua died, the plan fell apart and Israel was overrun by different nations.  They ended up living with the Canaanites, and the conquest was only completed by David.  As God said to Abraham, the sin of the Amorites had not reached its full measure.  (Genesis 15:16)  As for the Amalekites, Saul was instructed only to attack one settlement.  If you study the history of the Amalekites from the Bible and from the records of the other nations around, the Amalekites were a unique culture which was entirely based on terrorism and raids, in which even the children were involved.  They had in earlier times attacked the elderly and babies from behind when Moses was marching with Israel through the Sinai Peninsula.  <br><br>God gave the order against the Canaanite tribes as an act of judgement for their sin, but He did so knowing Israel would fail, mix with them and lose the ideological war with them, ending up just like them, so they suffered the same fate as the Canaanites in the north in 721 BC and the south in 587 BC.  Remember, Midianites actually merged in with Israelit culture- after all, Moses' father in law was the Midianite priest of God.  <br><br>People need to read the Bible carefully to see what it actually says and not what people think it says.</div><br><br>This is the first time I have heard a Christian actually claim that this was not genocide.&nbsp; All I can say is...wow.&nbsp; Apparently, it is not genocide when you kill off entire cities and nations, slaughtering even the children and babies!&nbsp; What is it if not genocide...?<br><br>By the way, the genocide started with Moses (pbuh) and was continued by his successors, including Joshua.&nbsp; What was that you said about reading the Bible carefully to see what it actually says? &nbsp; <br><br>&nbsp;<br>]]>
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   <pubDate>Wed, 28 Nov 2012 14:18:21 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? :  Originally posted by PlacidResponse:...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24200&amp;PID=170820#170820</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=53418">islamispeace</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 28 November 2012 at 2:13pm<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Placid</strong></em><br /><br />Response: --- You arrived at some strange conclusions from what I said.<br>--- First, --- A typical Christian response might have been, “That was under the Old Covenant and happened about 3080 years ago, what has that got to do with Christians today?”</div><br><br>Placid, your response was typical of Christians as I explained.&nbsp; You tried to excuse the genocide instead of condemning it as any rational individual would do.&nbsp; <br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Placid</strong></em><br /><br />Second, ‘God (Jesus, in your view)’ --- is totally wrong, --- “God is God and there is no other.” --- There is no place in the NT where Jesus said, “I am God.”<br>--- Though some may express that, --- I don’t. --- Because Jesus was born on earth.</div><br><br>I am glad to hear you say that!&nbsp; I apologize for assuming that you believe Jesus was God.&nbsp; But as you identify yourself as a Christian, my assumption was understandable.&nbsp; If I may ask, are you a Jehovah's Witness?<br><br>But the problem still remains.&nbsp; If God ordered these killings, yet at the same time, God is just and fair, how do you reconcile the killing of babies?<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Placid</strong></em><br /><br />The same angel Gabriel that gave revelations to Muhammad, and ‘confirmed’ the former Scriptures as being true in Surah 3:3, and 5:48, also said to Mary in Luke 1:<br>34 Then Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I do not know a man?”<br>35 And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be CALLED the Son of God.”</div><br><br>This is off-topic but let me just say that the Holy Quran states clearly that Jesus is NOT the "son of God":<br><br><font color="#333300">"The Jews call 'Uzair a son of Allah, and the Christians call Christ the son of Allah. That is a saying from their mouth; (in this) they but imitate what the unbelievers of old used to say. Allah's curse be on them: how they are deluded away from the Truth!" (9:30)</font><br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Placid</strong></em><br /><br />Rodwell: And Mary, the daughter of Imran, who kept her maidenhood, and into whose womb We breathed of Our Spirit, and who believed in the words of her Lord and His Scriptures, and was one of the devout.  --- (So Jesus was CALLED the Son of God, --- and since He had no earthly Father, --- was he not from God?)</div><br><br>The Quran has a very simple answer for this:<br><br><font color="#333300">"<span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;;mso-ansi-:EN-US;mso-fareast-:EN-US;mso-bidi-:AR-SA">The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as thatof Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: "Be". 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Normal";	mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0;	mso-tstyle-colband-size:0;	mso-style-noshow:yes;	mso-style-priority:99;	mso-style-parent:"";	mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;	mso-para-margin:0in;	mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt;	mso-pagination:widow-orphan;	font-size:10.0pt;	font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";}<!&#091;endif&#093;--><br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Placid</strong></em><br /><br />Third --- There is no more ‘condoning’ of atrocities in those days than there is of ‘condoning’ terrorism today, --- which ends up with innocent victims.</div><br><br>There were innocent victims in the Israelite genocides.&nbsp; I have yet to hear one Christian condemn these genocides.&nbsp; On the other hand, plenty of Muslims condemn terrorism done in the name of Islam, and the Quran and Sunnah both categorically condemn the killing of innocent people.<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Placid</strong></em><br /><br />We can explain simply why it was done, --- but from 3080 years after the fact, --- I have no comment.</div><br><br>Exactly!&nbsp; This is the Christian answer: ignore it.&nbsp; But your answer also shows me that in the back of your mind, you know it is wrong.&nbsp; You just can't bring yourself around to say it because it would mean you are questioning what you believe is "scripture".&nbsp; <br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Placid</strong></em><br /><br />The people in the land were descendants of Noah’s 3 sons. The ones in Canaan were sons of Ham, --- and the ones in Ur of the Chaldees were sons of Shem --- but they were all idolaters. <br><br>Idolatry is the greatest sin against God, because ‘other gods’ suggest an ‘alternative’ to God. --- The people had become so overtaken with idolatry and immorality that there was no chance of recovery. --- Read about the account of Sodom and Gomorrah, in Genesis 18:16- 19:29, --- or some of the 7 places it is mentioned in the Quran. --- And how about the 360 some idols in the Kabah in Mecca when Muhammad was called to destroy idolatry, and return the people to believing in One God?</div>&nbsp; <br><br>I thought you said you had no comment?&nbsp; Now you are trying to find excuses again.&nbsp; What does the facts that the people of Canaan were descendants of Noah's sons and were all idolaters have to do with the killing of innocent children and babies?&nbsp; Why are you trying to excuse the inexcusable?<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Placid</strong></em><br /><br />While God destroys everything that is contaminated with sin, --- the innocent children, and the ones who truly believe in God, would be judged righteous by God, would they not?.</div><br><br>None of this changes the fact that these children were killed in the most gruesome ways.&nbsp; Just imagine what the scene must have looked like.&nbsp; Innocent children and babies being slaughtered like lambs with the sword, and their blood staining the earth.&nbsp; I doubt any rational person can say it was okay to kill them since they would "judged righteous by God..."&nbsp; <br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Placid</strong></em><br /><br />When a society gets to the point where all that the children learn from their parents is idolatry and immorality, --- is it not more ‘merciful’ to destroy the ‘sin center’ and save the innocent children and the true believers, and grant them eternal life, --- than to have them learn to live and die in sin, and all be cast into hell?</div><br><br>If that is the case, then one could argue that such behavior should be done even today.&nbsp; If the idea is to "save" them from Hell, then all children living in the modern world, where sin is everywhere, should be killed.&nbsp; Furthermore, who is to say that those children could not be taught to worship the One God? &nbsp;&nbsp; <br><br>Islam totally rejects this twisted logic:<br><br><font color="#333300">"Yazid ibn Hurmaz reported: Najda wrote a letter to Ibn Abbas asking him about killing children. He wrote back saying, “You wrote to me and asked me about killing children. The Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him, did not kill them and you should not kill them, unless you know about them what the companion of Moses knew about the boy.”" (Musnad Ahmad, #3254)</font><br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Placid</strong></em><br /><br />Abraham was called out of his idolatrous family in Ur of the Chaldees, whose father was an idolater, Surah 6:<br>74 (Remember) when Abraham said unto his father Azar: Takest thou idols for gods? Lo! I see thee and thy folk in error manifest.<br>Also, different places in the Quran God said, “How many cities have We destroyed because of their sin?”</div><br><br>But was Abraham (pbuh) killed?&nbsp; Of course not!&nbsp; <br><br>And as far as the cities that were punished, they were destroyed by <b>God Himself</b>, not by an army under His command.&nbsp; God decides who lives and who dies, not humans.&nbsp; This is true in everyday life as well as in battle.&nbsp; In battle, God has decreed that killing unarmed civilians is am abhorrent sin.&nbsp; <br>]]>
   </description>
   <pubDate>Wed, 28 Nov 2012 14:13:47 +0000</pubDate>
   <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24200&amp;PID=170820#170820</guid>
  </item> 
  <item>
   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? :    Originally posted by CaringheartGreetings...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24200&amp;PID=170817#170817</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=53418">islamispeace</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 28 November 2012 at 12:04pm<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Caringheart</strong></em><br /><br />Greetings Islamispeace,<br><br>It is because with Jesus came a new covenant... God was "doing a new thing".<br>Muhammad's teaching is a throw back to the old testament ways.<br>Most followers of Jesus also have trouble reconciling with what went on in the old testament... but that is why they do not follow the old testament but the Gospel... the good news... the new testament... the new covenant.<br><br>Salaam,<br>Caringheart<br></div><br><br>Caringheart, there are so many things wrong with your post, I don't know where to begin.&nbsp; <br><br>First, you say that Jesus came with a new covenant...that "God was doing a new thing".&nbsp; But you believe Jesus is God.&nbsp; Therefore, it was Jesus who ordered the merciless genocides which are described in graphic detail in the so-called "Old Testament" (Tanakh).&nbsp; Nothing can change that.&nbsp; So what if he came with a "new covenant"?&nbsp; How does that change the fact that under his orders, the Israelites murdered hundreds of thousands of people, including <u><b>innocent children and babies</b></u>?&nbsp; What sort of twisted individual is not disturbed by these monstrous verses?&nbsp; <br><br>Then you say the utterly ridiculous claim that "Muhammad's teaching is a throw back to the old testament ways."&nbsp; Wow!&nbsp; Really?&nbsp; This is the good old Christian hypocrisy I was talking about.&nbsp; Before I refute this absurd statement, inshaAllah, I would like to give you the opportunity to prove that you are not a hypocrite, like so many of your brethren.&nbsp; <b>If you think that Muhammad (pbuh) was so wrong for fighting against his enemies and killing them to protect his people, then do you also feel that Moses (pbuh) was wrong for fighting the Cannanites...and butchering all of them?</b>&nbsp; <b>If you are critical of Muhammad (pbuh), are you also criticial of Moses (pbuh)?</b>&nbsp; Here is your chance to remove the stench of hypocrisy from yourself.<br><br>Now, onto your claim that "Muhammad's teaching is a throw back to the old testament ways".&nbsp; I think the best way to refute this utterly asinine statement is to make a simple comparison with the "Old Testament ways" and the Ways of Muhammad (pbuh):<span id="en-NIV-5445" ="text="" deut-20-17"=""><span id="en-NIV-5445" ="text="" deut-20-17"=""><br><br><font color="#0000CC">Old Testament Ways - "Completely destroy them—the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites—as the <span style="font-variant: small-caps" ="small-caps"="">Lord</span> your God has commanded you." </font></span><font color="#0000CC">(Deuteronomy 20:17)</font><br></span><br><font color="#333300">Ways of Muhammad (pbuh) - "Allah forbids you not, with regard to those who fight you not for (your) Faith nor drive you out of your homes, from dealing kindly and justly with them: for Allah loveth those who are just." (Surah al-Mumtahana, 60:8)</font><br><font color="#000099"><br>Old Testament Ways - <font color="#000099"><span id="en-NIV-4971" ="text="" deut-2-32"="">When Sihon and all his army came out to meet us in battle at Jahaz,</span> <span id="en-NIV-4972" ="text="" deut-2-33"=""><sup ="versenum"="">33&nbsp;</sup>the <span style="font-variant: small-caps" ="small-caps"="">Lord</span> our God delivered him over to us and we struck him down, together with his sons and his whole army.</span> <span id="en-NIV-4973" ="text="" deut-2-34"=""><sup ="versenum"="">34&nbsp;</sup>At that time we took all his towns and completely destroyed them—men, women and children. We left no survivors.</span> </font></font><span id="en-NIV-4974" ="text="" deut-2-35"=""><font color="#000099"><sup ="versenum"="">35&nbsp;</sup>But the livestock and the plunder from the towns we had captured we carried off for ourselves. (Deuteronomy 2:32-34)</font><br><br><font color="#333300">Ways of Muhammad (pbuh) - "</font></span><font color="#333300"><span id="en-NIV-4974" ="text="" deut-2-35"="">Hanzala Al-Katib reported: We went on an expedition with the Messenger of Allah, peace be upon him, and we passed by a woman who had been killed<a href="http://www.dailyhadith&#111;nline.com/2012/09/17/hadith-&#111;n-jihad-the-prophet-forbade-killing-women-workers-or-any&#111;ne-who-is-not-fighting/" target="_blank"></a> and the people were gathered around her. They dispersed and he said, “<strong>She was not among those who were fighting</strong>.” Then he told a man to return to Khalid ibn Al-Waleed and say to him, “<strong>Verily, the Messenger of Allah has commanded you, saying: do not kill children or workers</strong>.”"</span> (Sunan Ibn Majah, Book of Jihad, Number 2842)</font><br><br><font color="#000099">Old Testament Ways - "<span id="en-NIV-4979" ="text="" deut-3-3"="">So the <span style="font-variant: small-caps" ="small-caps"="">Lord</span> our God also gave into our hands Og king of Bashan and all his army. We struck them down, leaving no survivors.</span> <span id="en-NIV-4980" ="text="" deut-3-4"=""><sup ="versenum"="">4&nbsp;</sup>At that time we took all his cities. There was not one of the sixty cities that we did not take from them—the whole region of Argob, Og’s kingdom in Bashan.</span> <span id="en-NIV-4981" ="text="" deut-3-5"=""><sup ="versenum"="">5&nbsp;</sup>All these cities were fortified with high walls and with gates and bars, and there were also a great many unwalled villages.</span> <span id="en-NIV-4982" ="text="" deut-3-6"=""><sup ="versenum"="">6&nbsp;</sup>We completely destroyed<a href="&quot;#fen-NIV-4982a&quot;" target="_blank">a</a>&#093;"&gt;&#091;<a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuter&#111;nomy+3&amp;versi&#111;n=NIV#fen-NIV-4982a" target="_blank">a</a>&#093; them, as we had done with Sihon king of Heshbon, destroying<a href="&quot;#fen-NIV-4982b&quot;" target="_blank">b</a>&#093;"&gt;&#091;<a href="http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuter&#111;nomy+3&amp;versi&#111;n=NIV#fen-NIV-4982b" target="_blank">b</a>&#093; every city—men, women and children.</span> <span id="en-NIV-4983" ="text="" deut-3-7"=""><sup ="versenum"="">7&nbsp;</sup>But all the livestock and the plunder from their cities we carried off for ourselves.</span>" (Deueteronomy 3:3-7)</font><br><br><font color="#333300">Ways of Muhammad (pbuh) - "Narrated Anas ibn Malik: The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: Go in Allah's name, trusting in Allah, and adhering to the religion of Allah's Apostle. do not kill a decrepit old man, o a young infant, or a child, or a woman; do not be dishonest about booty, but collect your spoils, do right and act well, for Allah loves those who do well." (Sunan Abu Dawud, Book 14, Number 2608)</font><br><br>We could go on and on, but I think the point has been made.&nbsp; The "Old Testament ways", as you put them, are completely different from the Ways of Muhammad (pbuh) and the Ways of Islam.&nbsp; Only a fool would think the two are comparable.&nbsp; <br><br>As for the "New Covenant", it seems that it will last only until the return of Jesus (pbuh), after which teachings like "turn the other cheek" and "love your enemy" will go out the window:<br><br><font color="#000099">"<span ="woj"="">But those enemies of mine who did not want me to be king over them—bring them here and kill them in front of me.’”</span>" (Luke 19:27)</font><br><br>"<a href="http://gill.biblecommenter.com/luke/19.htm" target="_blank">Gill's Exposition of Entire the Bible</a>" comments on this verse:<br><br>"<font color="#0000CC">bring hither, and slay them before me; which had its accomplishment in the destruction of Jerusalem, when multitudes of them were slain with the sword, both with their own, and with their enemies; and to this the parable has a special respect, and of which Christ more largely discourses in this chapter; see <a href="http://bible.cc/luke/19-41.htm" target="_blank">Luke 19:41</a><u><b> though it is true of all natural men, that they are enemies to Christ; and so of all negligent and slothful professors, and ministers of the word, who, when Christ shall come a second time, of which his coming to destroy the Jewish nation was an emblem and pledge, will be punished with everlasting destruction by him</b></u>; and then all other enemies will be slain and destroyed, sin, Satan, the world, and death:</font>"<br><br>So much for the "New Covenant".&nbsp; <br><br><span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by islamispeace - 28 November 2012 at 12:13pm</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Wed, 28 Nov 2012 12:04:08 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? : Hi Islam,Quote: Placid, your...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24200&amp;PID=170776#170776</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71448">Placid</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 27 November 2012 at 1:20pm<br /><br />Hi Islam,<br /><br />Quote: Placid, your response is a typical Christian response.  First, you say that "loving God and loving your neighbor as yourself" is the way to go, yet at the same time, you cannot bring yourself around to categorically condemn the horrific genocide in the land of Canaan that the Bible claims God (Jesus, in your view) commanded. <br /><br />Response: --- You arrived at some strange conclusions from what I said.<br />--- First, --- A typical Christian response might have been, “That was under the Old Covenant and happened about 3080 years ago, what has that got to do with Christians today?” --- And that could be the end of the response.<br />--- Second, ‘God (Jesus, in your view)’ --- is totally wrong, --- “God is God and there is no other.” --- There is no place in the NT where Jesus said, “I am God.”<br />--- Though some may express that, --- I don’t. --- Because Jesus was born on earth.  <br /><br />The same angel Gabriel that gave revelations to Muhammad, and ‘confirmed’ the former Scriptures as being true in Surah 3:3, and 5:48, also said to Mary in Luke 1:<br />34 Then Mary said to the angel, “How can this be, since I do not know a man?”<br />35 And the angel answered and said to her, “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be CALLED the Son of God.”<br /><br />--- You see, the New Covenant (Testament) introduces God as our “Heavenly Father” and Jesus was CALLED the “Son of God.” --- It starts the “Family of God,” --- which true believers can be “adopted” into. <br />--- Jesus was not a “Son” by physical relationship, but The Holy Spirit planted the seed of Life in Mary’s womb, as it says in Surah 66:<br />12 And Mary the daughter of 'Imran, who guarded her chastity; and We breathed into (her body) of Our spirit; and she testified to the truth of the words of her Lord and of His Revelations, and was one of the devout (servants).<br />12 Rodwell: And Mary, the daughter of Imran, who kept her maidenhood, and into whose womb We breathed of Our Spirit, and who believed in the words of her Lord and His Scriptures, and was one of the devout.  --- (So Jesus was CALLED the Son of God, --- and since He had no earthly Father, --- was he not from God?)<br /><br />--- Third --- There is no more ‘condoning’ of atrocities in those days than there is of ‘condoning’ terrorism today, --- which ends up with innocent victims.<br /><br />We can explain simply why it was done, --- but from 3080 years after the fact, --- I have no comment.<br /> --- The people in the land were descendants of Noah’s 3 sons. The ones in Canaan were sons of Ham, --- and the ones in Ur of the Chaldees were sons of Shem --- but they were all idolaters.<br /><br />--- Idolatry is the greatest sin against God, because ‘other gods’ suggest an ‘alternative’ to God. --- The people had become so overtaken with idolatry and immorality that there was no chance of recovery. --- Read about the account of Sodom and Gomorrah, in Genesis 18:16- 19:29, --- or some of the 7 places it is mentioned in the Quran. --- And how about the 360 some idols in the Kabah in Mecca when Muhammad was called to destroy idolatry, and return the people to believing in One God?<br /><br />While God destroys everything that is contaminated with sin, --- the innocent children, and the ones who truly believe in God, would be judged righteous by God, would they not?. <br />--- When a society gets to the point where all that the children learn from their parents is idolatry and immorality, --- is it not more ‘merciful’ to destroy the ‘sin center’ and save the innocent children and the true believers, and grant them eternal life, --- than to have them learn to live and die in sin, and all be cast into hell?<br /><br />Abraham was called out of his idolatrous family in Ur of the Chaldees, whose father was an idolater, Surah 6:<br />74 (Remember) when Abraham said unto his father Azar: Takest thou idols for gods? Lo! I see thee and thy folk in error manifest.<br />Also, different places in the Quran God said, “How many cities have We destroyed because of their sin?”&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<br />&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<br /><br />Placid<br /><br />]]>
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   <pubDate>Tue, 27 Nov 2012 13:20:41 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? :  Originally posted by PlacidHi...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24200&amp;PID=170773#170773</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=59438">honeto</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 27 November 2012 at 12:31pm<br /><br /> <div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Placid</strong></em><br /><br />Hi Mahdi,<br /><br />--- I have been going through your list of questions, that others have not answered, and I am nearing the end of them<br /><br />However, --- this was written about the Amalekites who lived about 1070 BC. They were a nomadic, marauding people who did not believe in God and were an enemy to Israel, so eventually, they were annihilated.<br /> <br />The Calendar was restarted with the birth of Jesus, --- and the New Covenant (the New Testament). --- During the time of Jesus, the followers were persecuted, but did not retaliate. --- The Scripture says, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay,” says the Lord.<br /><br />There have been atrocities in the name of religion, including Christianity, --- but for ‘believing’ Christians who worship God and follow Jesus, it is the very opposite of, --- “Loving God and loving your neighbor as yourself.”&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<br /><br />Quote: Christians would you kill a suckling?<br />1 Samuel 15 King James Version (KJV) Samuel also said unto Saul, The LORD sent me to anoint thee to be king over his people, over Israel: now therefore hearken thou unto the voice of the words of the LORD. 2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. 3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling ox and sheep, camel and ass. <br /><br /><br /></div> <br /><br />Placid, <br />so according to your book, God ordered killings of man and women who do not believe as you do including their infants and poor ox and sheep, camel and ass. <br />How you justify and associated such and action to God you claim to be loving?<br />Please explain in plain English and be brief.<br />Hasan]]>
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   <pubDate>Tue, 27 Nov 2012 12:31:55 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? :  Originally posted by Mahdi The...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24200&amp;PID=170762#170762</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=66457">bunter</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 27 November 2012 at 9:04am<br /><br /> <div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke</strong></em><br /><br /><font color=red>1 Samuel 15 King James Version (KJV) Samuel also said unto Saul, The LORD sent me to anoint thee to be king over his people, over Israel: now therefore hearken thou unto the voice of the words of the LORD. 2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. 3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, <em><u><strong>infant and suckling</strong></u></em> ox and sheep, camel and ass.</font></div> <br /><br />One wonders why you quote this verse and not Matthew 5:44 where Jesus tells us to love our enemies?]]>
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   <pubDate>Tue, 27 Nov 2012 09:04:52 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? : Except that it wasn&amp;#039;t a war...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24200&amp;PID=170743#170743</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71439">Salaam_Erin</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 27 November 2012 at 3:59am<br /><br />Except that it wasn't a war of genocide but a war of liberation.  The Book of Joshua was written in a high context culture which knew that Canaan was part of the Egyptian Empire and that Canaan was ruled by pro-Egyptian Quisling Kings.  Most of the Canaanites had been exiled in Egypt and came back with the Israelites.  The Exodus led by Moses did not have Israelites in it.  And even then if you study the Book of Joshua carefully, Joshua's battles were disabling operations and not genocide.  He only destroyed three cities, Jericho, Ai and Hazor.  They then kept going back to Gilgal.  After Joshua died, the plan fell apart and Israel was overrun by different nations.  They ended up living with the Canaanites, and the conquest was only completed by David.  As God said to Abraham, the sin of the Amorites had not reached its full measure.  (Genesis 15:16)  As for the Amalekites, Saul was instructed only to attack one settlement.  If you study the history of the Amalekites from the Bible and from the records of the other nations around, the Amalekites were a unique culture which was entirely based on terrorism and raids, in which even the children were involved.  They had in earlier times attacked the elderly and babies from behind when Moses was marching with Israel through the Sinai Peninsula.  <br /><br />God gave the order against the Canaanite tribes as an act of judgement for their sin, but He did so knowing Israel would fail, mix with them and lose the ideological war with them, ending up just like them, so they suffered the same fate as the Canaanites in the north in 721 BC and the south in 587 BC.  Remember, Midianites actually merged in with Israelit culture- after all, Moses' father in law was the Midianite priest of God.  <br /><br />People need to read the Bible carefully to see what it actually says and not what people think it says.  ]]>
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   <pubDate>Tue, 27 Nov 2012 03:59:50 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? : Greetings Islamispeace,It is because...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24200&amp;PID=170731#170731</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=69566">Caringheart</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 26 November 2012 at 9:00pm<br /><br />Greetings Islamispeace,<br><br>It is because with Jesus came a new covenant... God was "doing a new thing".<br>Muhammad's teaching is a throw back to the old testament ways.<br>Most followers of Jesus also have trouble reconciling with what went on in the old testament... but that is why they do not follow the old testament but the Gospel... the good news... the new testament... the new covenant.<br><br>Salaam,<br>Caringheart<br>]]>
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   <pubDate>Mon, 26 Nov 2012 21:00:33 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? : Placid, your response is a typical...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24200&amp;PID=170720#170720</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=53418">islamispeace</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 26 November 2012 at 4:44pm<br /><br />Placid, your response is a typical Christian response.&nbsp; First, you say that "loving God and loving your neighbor as yourself" is the way to go, yet at the same time, you cannot bring yourself around to categorically condemn the horrific genocide in the land of Canaan that the Bible claims God (Jesus, in your view) commanded.&nbsp; <br><br>Also, it wasn't just the Amalekites which were "annihilated".&nbsp; It was also the Midianites...and the Hittites...and the Amorites...and the Perizzites...and so on...<br><br>What I find even more ironic is the fact that the same Christians who so enthusiastically defend the Biblically-sanctioned genocide also have the audacity to actually criticize the prophet Muhammad (pbuh) for fighting against his enemies and killing them!&nbsp; Yet, Muhammad (pbuh) did not kill women, children, the elderly, or farm animals!&nbsp; I don't know if you are one of these Christians, but it is an all too common hypocrisy amongst many of your brethren.&nbsp; <br><br><br>]]>
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   <pubDate>Mon, 26 Nov 2012 16:44:36 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? :  Originally posted by PlacidHi...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24200&amp;PID=170710#170710</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=67758">Mahdi The Seeke</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 26 November 2012 at 12:25pm<br /><br /> <div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Placid</strong></em><br /><br />Hi Mahdi,<br /><br />--- I have been going through your list of questions, that others have not answered, and I am nearing the end of them<br /><br />However, --- this was written about the Amalekites who lived about 1070 BC. They were a nomadic, marauding people who did not believe in God and were an enemy to Israel, so eventually, they were annihilated.<br /> <br />The Calendar was restarted with the birth of Jesus, --- and the New Covenant (the New Testament). --- During the time of Jesus, the followers were persecuted, but did not retaliate. --- The Scripture says, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay,” says the Lord.<br /><br />There have been atrocities in the name of religion, including Christianity, --- but for ‘believing’ Christians who worship God and follow Jesus, it is the very opposite of, --- “Loving God and loving your neighbor as yourself.”&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<br /><br />Quote: Christians would you kill a suckling?<br />1 Samuel 15 King James Version (KJV) Samuel also said unto Saul, The LORD sent me to anoint thee to be king over his people, over Israel: now therefore hearken thou unto the voice of the words of the LORD. 2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. 3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling ox and sheep, camel and ass. <br /><br /><br /></div> <br /><br />wow. justifying the killing of sucklings.wow]]>
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   <pubDate>Mon, 26 Nov 2012 12:25:19 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? : Hi Mahdi,--- I have been going...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24200&amp;PID=170571#170571</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71448">Placid</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 23 November 2012 at 2:13pm<br /><br />Hi Mahdi,<br /><br />--- I have been going through your list of questions, that others have not answered, and I am nearing the end of them<br /><br />However, --- this was written about the Amalekites who lived about 1070 BC. They were a nomadic, marauding people who did not believe in God and were an enemy to Israel, so eventually, they were annihilated.<br /> <br />The Calendar was restarted with the birth of Jesus, --- and the New Covenant (the New Testament). --- During the time of Jesus, the followers were persecuted, but did not retaliate. --- The Scripture says, “Vengeance is mine, I will repay,” says the Lord.<br /><br />There have been atrocities in the name of religion, including Christianity, --- but for ‘believing’ Christians who worship God and follow Jesus, it is the very opposite of, --- “Loving God and loving your neighbor as yourself.”&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;<br /><br />Quote: Christians would you kill a suckling?<br />1 Samuel 15 King James Version (KJV) Samuel also said unto Saul, The LORD sent me to anoint thee to be king over his people, over Israel: now therefore hearken thou unto the voice of the words of the LORD. 2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. 3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling ox and sheep, camel and ass. <br /><br /><br />]]>
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   <pubDate>Fri, 23 Nov 2012 14:13:01 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>CHRISTIANS:WOULD YOU KILL A SUCKLING? : 1 Samuel 15 King James Version...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24200&amp;PID=169710#169710</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=67758">Mahdi The Seeke</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24200<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 03 November 2012 at 4:52am<br /><br /><font color=red>1 Samuel 15 King James Version (KJV) Samuel also said unto Saul, The LORD sent me to anoint thee to be king over his people, over Israel: now therefore hearken thou unto the voice of the words of the LORD. 2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. 3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, <em><u><strong>infant and suckling</strong></u></em> ox and sheep, camel and ass.</font>]]>
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   <pubDate>Sat, 03 Nov 2012 04:52:29 +0000</pubDate>
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