Oh good.  The scholars have declared themselves infallible.  Well, that settles it.

But we weren't talking about making up hadith.  The topic is the  Battle of Badr, and you listed a whole lot supposedly eyewitness account of angels helping the Muslim army.  It doesn't occur to you that these witnesses might have been exaggerating, if not wholly inventing, these accounts, in order to gain status, and/or to bolster their own faith or that of others?

I especially liked your tale of the captured pagan Abbas bin Abdul-Muttalib.  His pride probably would not allow him to admit that he had been captured by an ordinary Muslim, so he made up a story about being captured by a much superior Being.  The Muslim soldier declared that he had indeed captured Abbas himself.

One of them was not telling the truth.  So who are we to believe: the pagan captive, or the Muslim?  Ordinarily one might presume that the good Muslim would be a more reliable witness than the heathen -- but guess what?  Muhammad, who wasn't even there,, tells the Muslim soldier to "be quiet" and confirms the pagan's story about an angel.

You don't see any possibility of pious fraud going on here?

Don't kid yourself, Beebok. Pious fraud happens in Islam, too:
"Narrated Um Kulthum bint Uqba: That she heard Allah's Apostle saying, 'He who makes peace between the people by inventing good information or saying good things, is not a liar.'"(Bukhari, Volume 3, Book 49, Number 857)

Besides, it's not necessary to deliberately lie in order to commit pious fraud.  Religious fervour can influence one's judgement and perceptions, leading witnesses to exaggerate events and misremember fantasies as reality.  In other words, people with the best of intentions can delude themselves without even realizing it.

How do you know what standards they used?  Do you think they just tossed dice or something?  Of course they had standards.  But the point is that by those standards they were largely able to agree on what belonged and what didn't belong in the Bible.  There are minor differences between the Catholic and the Protestant versions, for instance, but nothing like the differences between Sunni and Shia.  And that's not even considering the "weak" hadith, which by their own admission Muslim scholars are unable to decide.

Look how careful you need to be, and how even with such diligence you still have a whole boatload of hadith whose status is uncertain.  Good for you that you are open enough to admit it, but it doesn't remove the uncertainty.

But what if some of the weaker ones are actually legitimate?  How would that change your beliefs or your practices?  Can you just ignore the (alleged) word of Allah?

Is that the standard by which you define your religion?  "We're usually right?"

Oh, so that makes it okay?

I'm going to assume that you are just lost in your own rhetoric, and are not actually condoning 9/11; but it sure sounds like you think that was okay too.

Ron said, “If men can be wrong (and they certainly can),then your religion can also be wrong.”

Men can also be right, and when they putin the massive intellectual effort and objective scrutiny on standards that areused to accept other ancient events, then they usually are right.

And if Ron is a man, then Ron can be wrong, and he certainlyis because we can double check the work of the hadith collectors like Bukharito see if they were right or not.

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Ron said, “…each hadith is evaluated, by men, notby God.”

But what he leaves out there is that the hadith areevaluated by sincere, intelligent, educated men who use a very strict andobjective standard, not just a random assortment of men basing their judgmenton their personal feelings and personal prejudices as occurred with theChristian gospels.

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Ron said, “Therefore to the extent that your religionrelies on this evaluation, then your religion is defined by men, not by God.”

That’s false reasoning. When Webster defies a word and Irepeat it, then I’m not the one who defined it just by repeating it.

When God defines a religion, I’m not defining it byrepeating God’s definition.

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So, the disbelievers' argument is essentially that because there might be a miniscule chance that some hadith might be partially incorrect, they are going to disbelieve and ignore the mountains of evidence to believe.

Not necessarily.  Pious fraud happens all the time, not just in Islam but in all religions.  If you believe something fervently enough, and believe that you have a duty to convince others of this belief, then it is easy to rationalize making up a story to achieve that good purpose.

And the result?  Endless disputes over the reliability of not just individual hadith but whole collections of them.  Do not confuse precision with accuracy.  Your "standards of meticulous care" do not produce absolute certainty, but rather a hierarchy of authenticity, with varying levels of uncertainty.

And please note that this hierarchy is created and the authenticity of each hadith is evaluated, by men, not by God.  Therefore to the extent that your religion relies on this evaluation, then your religion is defined by men, not by God.  If men can be wrong (and they certainly can), then your religion can also be wrong.

To fight the aggressors, perhaps; but nothing can justify attacking unarmed civilians.  Not in caravans, and not in office towers in downtown Manhattan.

Non-Muslimsmay ask how we can know that Muhammad really saw the angelGabriel in the cave.

Herefollows an event from a different time in Muhammad’s life to illustrate hisveracity from which we can add to other events to form a foundation fordetermining Muhammad’s reliability.

The event of the battle in Badr valley:

Justthe facts,

1. The army of the Quraysh pagans was about 1000 strong.
2. The Muslim army had about 300 to 315 fighters.
3. As the Quraysh pagan army was winning, they suddenly turned around and fled in chaos.
4. The Badr valley is surrounded by mountains on all sides. There are only three narrow ways in and out of the valley.
5. The night before the battle, there had been a substantial rain and the ground was damp on the day of the battle.

Part 1, The Battle of Badr, a quick summary:

A, Muhammad predicts what was going to happen.

Afterlosing some man to man duels against the Muslims, the pagan Quraysh descendedon the Muslims with a fury and the Muslims were hard pressed to defend theirline.

Muhammadwas commanding from behind the Muslims, and the following verse of the Quranwas then revealed from God to Muhammad,

{ I will help you with a thousand angels in succession, onefollowing behind the other. }(Quran: 8,9)

Muhammadthen said to his friend, Abu Bakr, “. . . I can see the angel Gabriel on his mare inthe thick of a sand storm.”

Butthere was no sand storm that anyone else could see, . . . yet.

Thenthe following verse of the Quran was revealed,

{ Their (the pagan’s) multitude will be put to flight, andthey will show their backs.” } (Quran:54:45)

ThenMuhammad picked up a handful of gravel and threw it in the direction of thepagans and said, “confusion seize their faces!”

Justas he threw the gravel, a violent sandstorm blew into the faces of the enemies.

Thiswas very strange since it was difficult for any strong wind to blow into thevalley, and the ground was wet from the rain the night before.

B, An unexpectedsand-storm blows from the rock mountains.

In the Valley of Badr, the Muslims were based on the South West part of valley. The Qurayshdisbelievers were based on the North East part of the valley.

The Muslims had their backs to the Al-Asfal Mountains, which is the lower mountain chain to Makkah. 

So, the wind, if it was from naturalcauses, would have had to blow through a mountain chain when the ground wasdamp from the rain and had no loose dust to pick up, and would have had toappear just moments after Muhammad predicted it while no one else could see it,and just as Muhammad through the gravel at the Quraysh with his prayer.

Since the Muslims had the mountains justbehind them, the sand storm would have had to appear through a wall of wetrock, go just in the right direction, and just at the right time. Then therewould have had to have been reports of seeing or noticing the effects of angelsfrom both sides. 

Asthe pagans were blinded by the sand storm, the Muslims immediately regained theupper hand and the pagans were thrown into confusion. They turned around andfled in disorder and panic as the Muslim army gave pursuit.

Afterthe battle was over, the following verse was revealed by God to Muhammad,

{ And you (Muhammad) did not throw when you threw, but itwas God who threw. } (Quran:8:17)

Beforethe pagans fled, the Muslims were busy fighting and had not heard Muhammad saythat he saw Gabriel, nor had the Muslimsheard the verse in which God promised the help of angels.

Part 2, People report seeing angels:

Butthe Muslims later reported various sightings. Some said that they saw unknownhorsemen whose horses’ hoofs did not touch the ground.

SomeMuslims did not see the angels directly, butsaw the effects of the angels such as oneMuslim named Hazuim who reported seeing the head of a fleeing pagan getmysteriously cut off before he could reach him. Hazuim had been giving chaseand he heard a swashing of a horse whip and then a detached voice say, “forwardHazuim!”

Whenhe reported the incident to Muhammad, he said to Hazuim, “You have said thetruth. This was help from the third heaven.”

Evenone of the captured pagan disbelievers named Abbas bin Abdul-Muttalib reported,“this man did not capture me. I was captured by a different man who was baldand handsome and who was riding a piebald horse. I do not see him here amongthe people.” The Muslim holding Abbas captive then interrupted Abbas andproclaimed to Muhammad, “I captured him, O Messenger of Allah.”

Muhammadthen said to him, “Be quiet, God the All-Mighty strengthened you with the helpof a noble angel.”

Abbasbin Abdul-Muttalib had brought 100 gold coins with him, and had left a secretsavings with his wife in Mecca.

Whenthe time for ransom came, Abbas said that he had no other wealth than what hehad brought, and then Muhammad asked Abbas about the gold that he had left withhis wife. Abbas was stunned and asked Muhammad how he knew about that, andMuhammad responded that the angel Gabriel had told him.

Toadd more to the miracle of angels in the Battle of Badr, I will quote MartinLings’ biography of Muhammad where Lings summarizes the hadith,

“Others had briefglimpses of the Angels riding on horses whose hooves never touched the ground,led by Gabriel wearing a yellow turban, whereas the turbans of the other angelswere white, with one end left streaming behind them.”

page152.

Here is another example of a non-Muslimdisbeliever reporting the angels.

One of the defeated non-Muslim survivorsnamed Abu Sufyan bin Al-Harith fled back to Mecca. He narrated the events of the defeat to anotherdisbeliever named Abu Lahab who had not been present at the battle.

Abu Sufyan’s account emphasized the angelsas being the cause of the defeat.

When a poor Muslim named Abu Rafi overheard the discussion, he began to repeat the event with the miraculous role ofthe angels, and Abu Lahab became so angry that he began beating up thedestitute Abu Rafi. 

Theabove is only one event from the life of Muhammad. There were others. Thecombination of such incidents along with the miracles of the Quran, theexcellence of the personality of Muhammad, and many other things attest thatMuhammad was indeed telling the truth when he spoke of having seen the angel Gabriel inthe night of the first revelation, as Matt Browne has asked about.

Part 3, Review:

A,  The disbeliever’s challenge has been met:Others did see the angels.

The disbelievers raised the challenge,“did others besides Muhammad see the angels?”

So, in answer to the disbeliever’schallenge of anyone else seeing angels, we have as one example, the Battle ofBadr where other people saw the angels also.

1,  Someother Muslims witnessed the angels.

The Muslims later reported various sightings. Some said that theysaw unknown horsemen whose horses’ hoofs did not touch the ground.”

2,  Someexamples of non-Muslims seeing the angles.

Remember that an angel that told Muhammadabout the gold that Abbas bin Abdul-Muttalib had secretly given to his wife,and that Abbas also reported being captured by one invisible to others. Thatwas a case where a disbeliever saw an angel, but a Muslim standing next to himdidn’t see it.

I had also mentioned the report of aMuslim named Hazuim who reported seeing the head of a disbeliever get cut offby no means that he could see while at the same time he heard a detached voiceencouraged him on.

I had written:

Some Muslims did not see theangels directly, but saw the effects of the angels such as one Muslim namedHazuim who reported seeing the head of a fleeing pagan get mysteriously cut offbefore he could reach him. Hazuim had been giving chase and he heard a swashingof a horse whip and then a detached voice say, “forward Hazuim!”

When Hazuim reported theincident to Muhammad, he said to Hazuim, “You have said the truth. This washelp from the third heaven.”

B, Other examples ofMuhammad’s knowledge of the unknown.

1, Muhammad’s knowledge of death of thePersian king before the king’s own agents knew:

Muhammad’s knowledge of Abbas’s secretgold at the Battle of Badr was not the only example of Muhammad havingknowledge unknown to others. On a different occasion, the king of Persia, Khosroe, once ordered the governor of Yaman, aman named Bazan, to arrest Muhammad. Bazan sent to agents to arrest Muhammad.When they arrived in Medinah, Muhammad informed them that Khosroe was dead.They returned to Yaman empty handed and later word arrived that king Khosroehad been murdered by his son the very night of the agents’ meeting withMuhammad.

Bazan, the governer of Yaman, converted toIslam upon learning this and succeeded from Persia.

 2, Muhammad’s knowledge of thesecret mission of Umair:

Umair bin Wahb Al-Jumahi was one of thehardened polytheists who had gone further and further astray.
After the battle of Badr, he went on a secret mission from Mecca to Medina to murder the holy prophet Muhammad (peace be uponhim).

Safwan bin Umaiyah had quietly offered topay Umair’s debts and family financial obligations so that Umair could go onthat assassination attempt.

But when Umair was caught, and the prophet revealed to Umair his secretmission, then Umair was taken by surprise. He converted to Islam, and thenreturned to Mecca to spread the message, and many converted back toIslam. Such was the compassionate miracle of Allah through His prophet thatbrought Umair back.

I had also mentioned the report of aMuslim named Hazuim who reported seeing the head of a disbeliever get cut offby no means that he could see while at the same time he heard a detached voiceencouraged him on.

I had written:

Some Muslims did not see theangels directly, but saw the effects of the angels such as one Muslim namedHazuim who reported seeing the head of a fleeing pagan get mysteriously cut offbefore he could reach him. Hazuim had been giving chase and he heard a swashingof a horse whip and then a detached voice say, “forward Hazuim!”

When he reported the incident toMuhammad, he said to Hazuim, “You have said the truth. This was help from thethird heaven.” 

So, Muslims and non-Muslims had seen theangels.  

Part 4, Responding tosome objections: 

 A, How can we trust theauthenticity of the events?

Muslims believe that we must follow theQuran and the example of the prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) if we are toenter into heaven. So, it is to our advantage to copy the sayings and actionsof Muhammad, as well as the contextual events surrounding his life, friends,and enemies, as closely as possible.

To that end, they followed an objectiveand complex set of standards to determine which hadith were reliable and whichwere not. They followed those standards with meticulous care. Those standardsare preserved as well as the hadith. Their methodology can be reproduced atwill.

B, The miracle was notjust that the Muslims defeated a more powerful force.

Now, the disbelievers may object byclaiming that the history of warfare is filled with examples against vastly superiorforces; but that is not our standard for miracles, and the disbelievers wouldbe just misrepresenting our point with such an objection.

C, The miracle was notjust that an unexpected wind blew into the faces of the disbelievers at justthe right time.

They might also object and say that it isnot an impressive event for wind to blow into the face of the enemy. Forexample, Hannibal, the leader of an army from Carthage that fought Rome, arranged matters so that thewind blew dust into the faces of the advancing Romans.”

There is a huge difference betweenHannibal “arranging matters” so that a wind will blow dust in the faces of theenemy, and what happened in the valley of Badr, where as I had statedpreviously,

1. The Badr valley is surrounded by mountains on all sides. There are only three narrow ways in and out of the valley.
2. The night before the battle, there had been a substantial rain and the ground was damp on the day of the battle.

So, the ground was damp from a rain thenight before, and the valley was surrounded by mountains such that a sand stormcould not blow in. Muhammad could not have “arranged matters” for things tofall into place under such circumstances.

On top of that, the sand storm came justas Muhammad threw the gravel and made the prayer.

On top of that still, there was thereports of the angels from both the Muslims and the non-Muslim disbelievers,and this might have been the main miracle of all.

So, clearly the miracle was not at allmerely that of inferior forces beating a vastly superior force.

In the Valley of Badr, the Muslims were based on the South West part of valley. The Qurayshdisbelievers were based on the North East part of the valley.

The Muslims had their backs to the Al-Asfal Mountains, which is the lower mountain chain to Makkah.

 How could a wind blow through amountain chain, especially when the ground around was wet and there was no drydust to pick up? And what are the chances that such an inexplicable event wouldhave happened just as the Muslims needed it to happen? And what are the chancesthat such an inexplicable wind happening at just the right time would havewould have blown in just the right direction.

D, Why were the Muslimsattacking an unarmed caravan to begin with?

The pagan Quraysh of Mecca, in their rage,had sent a letter to the Muslims in Medina promising to slaughter them.

In addition, Muslim intelligence sourcesin Mecca were reporting back to Muslims in Medina that the pagan Quraysh were openly plottingagainst them.

Muhammad at one time even called forvolunteers to protect his family as they slept at night.

As the Muslims escaped from Medina to Mecca, the pagan Quraysh had seized much of the wealththat the Muslims left behind. In addition, the pagans persecuted those Muslimswho had been unable to flee. The pagans had also sent an ultimatum to theleader of pagans in Medina to fight and expel the Muslims. To that effect,the pagans in Medina gathered to fight the Muslims, but backed down atthe last second.

The pagan Quraysh of Mecca had even puteconomic sanctions, blockades, and embargoes against the Muslims in Medina. It was based on hostile actions such as the onesabove that the permission to fight was given to the Muslims.

Part 5, What to think of such an event:

An appropriate response to the events ofthe miracles of angels at the battle of Badr is for one to think somethinglike, “this is amazing and lends evidence to Muhammad’s help from God.”

So, when Muhammad narrates his seeing the angel Gabriel, wecan add this event to many other things to see that Muhammad was true.

But then again, if someone like Abu Sufyancould be so hard hearted to reject Islam even after he saw the angels, it isnot surprising then that others like Abu Lahab and the critics here would rejectIslam upon hearing of the events.