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  <title>IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : C&#111;ntracts &amp; technical loopholes - what is</title>
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   <title>C&#111;ntracts &amp; technical loopholes - what is :  Originally posted by Abu LorenProvide...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24006&amp;PID=170009#170009</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71203">nospam001</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24006<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 11 November 2012 at 1:52pm<br /><br /><P><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Abu Loren</strong></em><br /><br />Provide your proof that the Prophet (pbuh) went back to Zainab secretly drinking honey.</div></P><P>What forms of evidence would you accept? </P><P>Supposing a hadith can count as 'proof', then which specific collections would you say are 'sufficiently reliable'?</P>]]>
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   <pubDate>Sun, 11 Nov 2012 13:52:50 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>C&#111;ntracts &amp; technical loopholes - what is :   Originally posted by nospam001Yes....</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24006&amp;PID=169998#169998</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=70404">Abu Loren</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24006<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 11 November 2012 at 1:55am<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by nospam001</strong></em><br /><br /><br>Yes. Assuming we stick to the 'honey pot' scenario, of course. &#091;No pun intended.&#093; </div><div></div><div>Provide your proof that the Prophet (pbuh) went back to Zainab secretly drinking honey.</div><br><br>]]>
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   <pubDate>Sun, 11 Nov 2012 01:55:12 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>C&#111;ntracts &amp; technical loopholes - what is :  Originally posted by Abu LorenWhy...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24006&amp;PID=169937#169937</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71203">nospam001</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24006<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 09 November 2012 at 1:37pm<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Abu Loren</strong></em><br /><br />Why don't you stop beating around the bush and ask clear and concise questions so we can answer them in the same way?</div>Abstract concepts are hard to avoid in matters of principle. Allowing for that, I think my questions are already pretty clear and concise. If you could take the time to highlight which bits are still ambiguous or confusing I will try restating them.<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Abu Loren</strong></em><br /><br />Are you saying that the Prophet (pbuh) went back to drinking honey with his wife Zainab after he said he would not?</div><br />Yes. Assuming we stick to the 'honey pot' scenario, of course. &#091;No pun intended.&#093; <br /><br />Furthermore, he did not try to retract/clarify the 'promise' or explain his actions. Not until <em>after</em> his other wives had already found out for themselves - and reacted accordingly.<br /><br />I am not so concerned with his behaviour (he was human after all), rather with how the Qur'an 'turns a blind eye' to those actions, which at face value seem far from exemplary. <br /><br />Obviously, being a non-Muslim, I have been applying the same ethical standards as I would for <em>any</em> husband, including my own future sons-in-law. <br /><br />It has been stated several times in this thread that the Prophet() enjoyed <em>absolute</em> moral freedom, but so far this has not been backed up with any verse or other authority. On closer inspection S33:50 only appears to grant certain conjugal privileges.]]>
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   <pubDate>Fri, 09 Nov 2012 13:37:47 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>C&#111;ntracts &amp; technical loopholes - what is :   Originally posted by nospam001Thanks,...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24006&amp;PID=169925#169925</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=70404">Abu Loren</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24006<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 09 November 2012 at 1:23am<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by nospam001</strong></em><br /><br /><p><br>Thanks, I really think we're making progress now.<br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Abu Loren</strong></em><br /><br />He acted in 'secret' because he was allowed to do <font color="#ff0000">anything he wanted to</font>...</div>Does the Qur'an actually say that, and if so is it in S33:50 or somewhere else?<br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Abu Loren</strong></em><br /><br />Explain to us the contradiction you keep talking about, the earlier understanding or promise.</p><p>'Ubaid bin 'Umair narrated from 'Aishah, the wife of the Prophet:<br><em>"...He said: 'No, rather I drank honey at the house of Zainab bint Jahsh, but <font color="#ff0000">I will never do it again</font>'..." </em></p><p>Sunan-an-Nasa'i<br>English reference : Vol. 4, Book 27, Hadith 3450 <br>Arabic reference : Book 27, Hadith 3434 <br></p><div>Wasn't the husband later observed doing <em>something</em> contrary, in secret <em>before</em> any retraction was uttered to his other wives? How else does one explain their behaviour, upon hearing about the secret?</div><div>&nbsp;Clearly their reaction, whatever it was, was wrong enough to deserve a severe rebuke from Allah() Himself.&nbsp; Would a devoted wife ever do such things supposing she had been fully informed, <em>in advance</em>? </div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>(Let us suppose, for now, that the quotation above is the most reliable of all hadiths relating to this sura; i.e., '<em>something</em> contrary' simply means 'drinking honey at a particular place'.)</div></div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>Why don't you stop beating around the bush and ask clear and concise questions so we can answer them in the same way?</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>Are you saying that the Prophet (pbuh) went back to drinking honey with his wife Zainab after he said he would not?</div>]]>
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   <pubDate>Fri, 09 Nov 2012 01:23:25 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>C&#111;ntracts &amp; technical loopholes - what is : Thanks, I really think we&amp;#039;re...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24006&amp;PID=169916#169916</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71203">nospam001</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24006<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 08 November 2012 at 7:59pm<br /><br /><P><BR>Thanks, I really think we're making progress now.<BR><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Abu Loren</strong></em><br /><br />He acted in 'secret' because he was allowed to do <FONT color=#ff0000>anything he wanted to</FONT>...</div>Does the Qur'an actually say that, and if so is it in S33:50 or somewhere else?<BR><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Abu Loren</strong></em><br /><br />Explain to us the contradiction you keep talking about, the earlier understanding or promise.</P><P>'Ubaid bin 'Umair narrated from 'Aishah, the wife of the Prophet:<BR><em>"...He said: 'No, rather I drank honey at the house of Zainab bint Jahsh, but <FONT color=#ff0000>I will never do it again</FONT>'..." </em></P><P>Sunan-an-Nasa'i<BR>English reference : Vol. 4, Book 27, Hadith 3450 <BR>Arabic reference : Book 27, Hadith 3434 <BR></div><BR>Wasn't the husband later observed doing <em>something</em> contrary, in secret <em>before</em> any retraction was uttered to his other wives? How else does one explain their behaviour, upon hearing about the secret?</P><DIV>&nbsp;Clearly their reaction, whatever it was, was wrong enough to deserve a severe rebuke from Allah() Himself.&nbsp; Would a devoted wife ever do such things supposing she had been fully informed, <em>in advance</em>? </DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>(Let us suppose, for now, that the quotation above is the most reliable of all hadiths relating to this sura; i.e., '<em>something</em> contrary' simply means 'drinking honey at a particular place'.)</DIV>]]>
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   <pubDate>Thu, 08 Nov 2012 19:59:58 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>C&#111;ntracts &amp; technical loopholes - what is :   Originally posted by nospam001Yes,...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24006&amp;PID=169876#169876</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=70404">Abu Loren</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24006<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 07 November 2012 at 7:32pm<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by nospam001</strong></em><br /><br /><p>Yes, but did those privileges also include the special freedoms <em>to act in secret, contrary to an earlier understanding or promise and (when found out) to stop the truth from spreading?</em> If so then please say where. I can't find it in 33:50.</div></p><div>First of all you are confused about one or two things here. The wife of the Prophet (pbuh) in question is Zainab and not Maria. He acted in 'secret' because he was allowed to do anything he wanted to because he was the Prophet of God. It's also true that Zainab was one of his favourite wives along with Aisha.</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>Explain to us the contradiction you keep talking about, the earlier understanding or promise. May be the following hadith will set your mind at ease.</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div><div ="hadith_narrated">'Ubaid bin 'Umair narrated from 'Aishah, the wife of the Prophet:</div><div ="text_details">                      <em>"The Prophet used to stay with Zainab bint Jahsh and drink honey at her house. Hafsah and I agreed that if the Prophet came to either of us, she would say: 'I detect the smell of Maghafir (a nasty-smelling gum) on you; have you eaten Maghafir?' He came to one of them and she said that to him. He said: 'No, rather I drank honey at the house of Zainab bint Jahsh, but I will never do it again.' Then the following was revealed: 'O Prophet! Why do you forbid (for yourself) that which Allah has allowed to you.' 'If you two turn in repentance to Allah, (it will be better for you).' addressing 'Aishah and Hafsah; 'And (remember) when the Prophet disclosed a matter in confidence to one of his wives.' refers to him saying: "No, rather I drank honey."" </em></div><div ="text_details">&nbsp;</div><div ="text_details">Sunan-an-Nasa'i</div><div ="text_details"><table ="hadith_reference" cellSpacing="0" cellPadding="0"><t><tr><td><font size="2">English reference</font></td><td><font size="2"> : Vol. 4, Book 27, Hadith 3450</font></td></tr><tr><td><font size="2">Arabic reference</font></td><td><font size="2"> : Book 27, Hadith 3434</font></td></tr></t></table></div></div>]]>
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   <pubDate>Wed, 07 Nov 2012 19:32:23 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>C&#111;ntracts &amp; technical loopholes - what is :  Originally posted by Abu Loren Originally...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24006&amp;PID=169871#169871</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71203">nospam001</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24006<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 07 November 2012 at 2:57pm<br /><br /><P><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Abu Loren</strong></em><br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by nospam001</strong></em><br /><br />It would save time supposing someone could refer back to my short narrative as posted on 23-Oct and point out which specific elements appear to be incorrect. When doing so, please remember to substitute the word 'wife' in place of 'concubine'.</div>I think we already answered your question. If you missed it then here it is again.<BR>&nbsp;<BR>Narrated 'Aishah:<BR><em>It was narrated that 'Aishah said: "The Messenger of Allah did not die until Allah permitted him to marry whatever women he wanted."</em></P><P>Reference : Sunan an-Nasa'i 3205<BR>In-book reference : Book 26, Hadith 10<BR>English translation : Vol. 4, Book 26, Hadith 3207</P><P>&nbsp;<BR>The Prophet (pbuh) was given special privileges by Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala because he was a highly regarded slave of Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala. The Prophet (pbuh) was to fulfil an important mission for mankind, also note that Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala forgave his past and future sins.<BR>&nbsp;<BR>If the Prophet (pbuh) was showing favouritism towards a wife that is because he was a human being and had all the faults of a human being. If you read his hadiths you will seee that time and again he reminds us that he was just a human being like you and me and prone to mistakes like you and me.<BR>&nbsp;<BR>Btw I don't know if you know but some of the wives, especially the older ones gave up their rights on visits by the Prophet (pbuh) so that he can spend time with whomever he wanted to. Again read the hadiths to get the full picture.</div><BR><FONT color=#0000ff>Sorry, but the question you insist on answering is not one that I have ever asked.</FONT></P><P><FONT color=#0000ff>In case you didn't notice, my question is <em>not</em> about sexual morality <em>or</em> 'sin' <em>or</em> who the husband was allowed to marry <em>or</em> whether he was entitled to have favourites. (As much as some people might enjoy discussing those topics.)</FONT></P><P><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by nospam001</strong></em><br /><br />Looking at S66 in isolation, the combined weight of sunna <em>plus</em> Qur'an <strong>could</strong> be used to justify <em>any</em> sort of cover-up, <em>whenever</em> the facts are felt to be inconvenient.</P><P>Presumably there are limits on such duplicity, but what are they? How do we deduce them from Qur'an or Hadith? Is the 'licence to deceive' reserved for certain situations only?</div></P><P><FONT color=#0000ff>Here's the reconstructed narrative I posted on 23-Oct. </FONT></P><P><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by nospam001</strong></em><br /><br />Prior to the revelation of Sura 66 the husband went to considerable lengths in order to appease his frustrated wives. He undertook to give equal attention to each in turn, and also to abstain from further relations with a particularly beautiful &#091;wife&#093;, who was the focus of their jealousy. (Some 'G-rated' commentaries talk instead of a 'honey pot'. Either way makes little difference to the core principles involved.) </P><P>In making this concession he had unwittingly spurned the unique honour of conjugal privileges given to him (alone) in <strong>S33:50-51</strong>, thereby offending the giver. That was his only mistake, for which he receives a gentle reprimand.</P><P>Some time later(?) - but before S66 was revealed - the husband realised that there was in fact no binding commitment.&nbsp; Thus freed from any moral obligation he resumed relations with the same &#091;wife&#093;, <em>in secret</em>. Things went smoothly until he was 'caught in the act' by one of his jealous wives. <em>Damage control then required her silence.</em> She duly swore she would keep the matter secret, but then broke her promise and told the other wives. As finally revealed, Sura 66 deals severely with gossiping and eavesdropping, but tacitly approves of the husband's duplicity, secrecy and attempted cover-up.</div> </P><P><FONT color=#0000ff>Aside from the word 'concubine' (already amended to 'wife'), <em>is there anything else in that narrative (above) which is not generally agreed by everyone?</em>&nbsp; </FONT></P><P><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by nospam001</strong></em><br /><br />The 'engine' of this thread, to me anyway, is that Sura 66 deals severely with gossiping and eavesdropping, but <strong>tacitly approves</strong> of the husband's duplicity, secrecy and attempted cover-up i.e. it <strong>condones the fact</strong> that he <em>acted in secret, contrary to an earlier understanding or promise and then, when found out, tried to stop the truth from spreading.</em> These points are not disputed anywhere, as far as I can tell.&nbsp; </P><P>It may surprise you to discover that I'm not raising objections to polygamy and I'm <strong><FONT color=#ff0000>not</FONT> saying that the husband by 'managing' information was therefore guilty of any offence - legal or moral.</strong> I assume he had good reasons to act in that way, possibly something to do with local cultural norms of that era. I also assume that <strong>the Qur'an has good reasons</strong> for condoning those actions for all believers, for all time. My problem is that those reasons are not self-evident, at least not to me, not yet.</div><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by nospam001</strong></em><br /><br /><BR><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Abu Loren</strong></em><br /><br />If you had read and understood the opening verse of Surah 66 then you would have known that the Prophet was given privileges.</div>Yes, but did those privileges also include the special freedoms <em>to act in secret, contrary to an earlier understanding or promise and (when found out) to stop the truth from spreading?</em> If so then please say where. I can't find it in 33:50.</div><BR></P>]]>
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   <pubDate>Wed, 07 Nov 2012 14:57:21 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>C&#111;ntracts &amp; technical loopholes - what is :   Originally posted by Usmani  Dear...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24006&amp;PID=169861#169861</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=70404">Abu Loren</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24006<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 07 November 2012 at 11:19am<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Usmani</strong></em><br /><br /><span style='color: black; font-family: "Verdana","sans-serif"; font-size: 9pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-: EN;' lang="EN"><div>&nbsp;</div><div>Dear Brother Abu Loren,</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>All the Prophets of God are Special people, they are infallible, God protect them for commenting sins. Whoever praise them above Allah Subhanau wa ta'ala are on mistake and who ever think that they commits sins, they too are on mistake. <?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p></div></span><div></div><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: normal;"><span style='color: black; font-family: "Verdana","sans-serif"; font-size: 9pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-: EN;' lang="EN">&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></span></p><p style="margin: 0in 0in 0pt; line-height: normal;"><span style='color: black; font-family: "Verdana","sans-serif"; font-size: 9pt; mso-fareast-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-bidi-font-family: "Times New Roman"; mso-ansi-: EN;' lang="EN">If the Prophets of God does not commit sins by the special protection of Almighty Himself, this is no way an attribute of Divine.<o:p></o:p></span></p><p style="margin: auto 0in 0pt;"><o:p><font size="3" face="Times New Roman">&nbsp;</font></o:p>&nbsp;</p></div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>All the Prophets of God were indeed special people, but they were just people just like you and me. I'm not saying that they committed sins during their Prophethood but that they all sinned just like you and me.</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>Prophet Ibrahim (pbuh) lied to a king to protect his wife Sarah and he lied to his people when they asked him who broke their idols. Prophet Musa (pbuh) killed an Egyptian albeit accidentally.</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>Also all the Prophets will be judged too just like you and me.</div>]]>
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   <pubDate>Wed, 07 Nov 2012 11:19:13 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>C&#111;ntracts &amp; technical loopholes - what is :   Dear Brother Abu Loren,  All...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24006&amp;PID=169857#169857</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=55108">Usmani</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24006<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 07 November 2012 at 10:36am<br /><br /><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 9pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-: EN" lang=EN><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>Dear Brother Abu Loren,</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>All the Prophets of God are Special people, they are infallible, God protect them for commenting sins. Whoever praise them above Allah Subhanau wa ta'ala are on mistake and who ever think that they commits sins, they too are on mistake. <?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p></SPAN></DIV><P style="LINE-HEIGHT: normal; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Ms&#111;normal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 9pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-: EN" lang=EN>&nbsp;<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P><P style="LINE-HEIGHT: normal; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Ms&#111;normal><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana','sans-serif'; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 9pt; mso-fareast-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-bidi-font-family: 'Times New Roman'; mso-ansi-: EN" lang=EN>If the Prophets of God does not commit sins by the special protection of Almighty Himself, this is no way an attribute of Divine.<o:p></o:p></SPAN></P><P style="MARGIN: auto 0in 0pt" =Ms&#111;normal><o:p><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">&nbsp;</FONT></o:p></P><P>&nbsp;</P>]]>
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   <pubDate>Wed, 07 Nov 2012 10:36:02 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>C&#111;ntracts &amp; technical loopholes - what is :   All Prophets of God sinned...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=70404">Abu Loren</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24006<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 07 November 2012 at 1:46am<br /><br />All Prophets of God sinned and none of them were withour sin. The Prophet (pbuh) himself warned us against giving him divine&nbsp;attributes like the Christians gave to Jesus (pbuh). The Prophet was a simply a man, a mere human being, nothing more and nothing less. Some people praise him above Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala and give him titles like 'perfect creation' which is not true at all. Nobody is perfect except Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala and millions of Muslims have forgotten this fact.<div>&nbsp;</div><div>Don't condemn me to hell fire and call me kufr for giving you the facts and telling the truth.</div>]]>
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   <pubDate>Wed, 07 Nov 2012 01:46:13 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>C&#111;ntracts &amp; technical loopholes - what is : Allah SubHanuhu wa Ta&amp;#039;ala...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=55108">Usmani</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24006<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 07 November 2012 at 1:27am<br /><br /><P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" =Ms&#111;normal><SPAN style="LINE-HEIGHT: 115%; FONT-FAMILY: 'Georgia','serif'; FONT-SIZE: 12pt">Allah SubHanuhu wa Ta'ala is the Lord and Creator of the Prophets and they are His beloved. He can mention their mistakes in whatever way He wishes and they can demonstrate their humility to Him in whatever way they wish. We have no right to speak about their mistakes or disrespect and slander them unless we want our record books blackened with sins. Allah SubHanuhu wa Ta'ala has ordered us to respect and revere His Prophets. If a Prophet became a sinner, both opposing him and obeying him would become necessary, and this is a concentration of two opposite things. So, the majority of the Scholars including the Imams of the Four Schools of Law followed what they considered to be the stronger position, namely that Prophets are protected even from minor sins. Beware... Beware.. Beware O My Muslim Brothers and Sisters!! To disrespect any Prophet, to find any faults or defect in them or to be rude or insolent to these Prophets is Kufr (Infidelity).<BR><BR>&nbsp;<a href="http://www.ahlesunnat.net/media-library/downloads/regularupdates/infallibilityofprophets.htm" target="_blank">http://www.ahlesunnat.net/media-library/downloads/regularupdates/infallibilityofprophets.htm</A></SPAN><SPAN style="LINE-HEIGHT: 115%; FONT-SIZE: 12pt"><?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p></SPAN></P>]]>
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   <pubDate>Wed, 07 Nov 2012 01:27:30 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>C&#111;ntracts &amp; technical loopholes - what is : Assalamu alaika.You are an Arab...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=60288">Friendship</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24006<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 07 November 2012 at 12:12am<br /><br /><b>Assalamu alaika.<br><br>You are an Arab I guess. The Revelation is in your mother's tongue. All that you need is to read what the Sahabas explained on each and every letter, word and verse time and time again to understand the Revelation. I do not argue with a Muslim because they never give away their opinion and agree with the</b> <b><font color="#0000FF">Truth. <font color="#000000">I do not intend to insult you, but only to </font></font>live by my experience.<br><br>Friendship.</b><br>]]>
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   <pubDate>Wed, 07 Nov 2012 00:12:24 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>C&#111;ntracts &amp; technical loopholes - what is :   Originally posted by FriendshipAssalamu...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24006&amp;PID=169840#169840</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=70404">Abu Loren</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24006<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 07 November 2012 at 12:02am<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Friendship</strong></em><br /><br /><font size="3" face="Times New Roman, Times, serif">Assalamu alaikum.<br><br>I have no apology to offer to anyone who attempts to interpret the last revelation according to his ideas and fantasy. I had to learn Arabic although my ancestors were of Arab descent from Madina. My difference with other speaking Arabs is that I rely on the interpretation of the Qur'an according to the laid down standard. You believed that Muhammad committed a sin. Note that this is in your register and you have to account for it. I did not say so, and if Allah will ask me that question, I will tell Him that I have no proof from the history of Muhammad. If Allah will accuse Muhammad of sinning I have no objection.<br><br>Friendship.</font><br></div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>If the Prophet (pbuh) didn't sin then why was his past and future sins forgiven?</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>Do not try to make the Holy Prophet (pbuh) into another Jesus (pbuh).</div>]]>
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   <pubDate>Wed, 07 Nov 2012 00:02:55 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>C&#111;ntracts &amp; technical loopholes - what is : Assalamu alaikum.I have no apology...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24006&amp;PID=169819#169819</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=60288">Friendship</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24006<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 06 November 2012 at 5:39am<br /><br /><font face="Times New Roman, Times, serif" size="3">Assalamu alaikum.<br><br>I have no apology to offer to anyone who attempts to interpret the last revelation according to his ideas and fantasy. I had to learn Arabic although my ancestors were of Arab descent from Madina. My difference with other speaking Arabs is that I rely on the interpretation of the Qur'an according to the laid down standard. You believed that Muhammad committed a sin. Note that this is in your register and you have to account for it. I did not say so, and if Allah will ask me that question, I will tell Him that I have no proof from the history of Muhammad. If Allah will accuse Muhammad of sinning I have no objection.<br><br>Friendship.</font><br>]]>
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   <pubDate>Tue, 06 Nov 2012 05:39:03 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>C&#111;ntracts &amp; technical loopholes - what is :   Originally posted by FriendshipAssalamu...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24006&amp;PID=169814#169814</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=70404">Abu Loren</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24006<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 06 November 2012 at 3:18am<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Friendship</strong></em><br /><br />Assalamu alaikum.<br><br>I have stopped discussing in this thread and others because there is insincerity from some members who want to understand Muhammad and that some Muslims give a distorted explanation. It is to be understood that understanding Muhammad begins with understanding what was revealed before him. It is not the responsibility of the follower of Muhammad to make one believe in him. I, want to be told what made Noah, Abraham, Isaac and others believed in Allah and obeyed His commands. The same signs are in the soul of all of us. They are present today. Allah says that he created all of us as believers. It is our parents that make us believers of otherwise.<br>It is wrong to portray Muhammad as having committed a sin because no one can ever pin point such sin. The Bible explains that it is the sinless that Allah Trusts and appoints as leaders. That was the reason behind the killing of the first born children and the appointment of the Levi tribes as those to hold the Torah. Prophet Jonah sinned but that was a lesson, likewise Solomon. <br>Allah refers to Muhammad on issues that are very serious and not that he has committed that offense. It was only during the time of Muhammad that honor, protection and rights were given to women. We should not forget that Surayya the wife of Amr was the first female martyr. The remarks of Amr ibn Al-As to the Negus king: "We use them, buy them sell them and discard them" reveals the position of females before. Allah addressed mankind to be extremely lenient to women. They can easily be broken. The last words of Muhammad was: your women your women.&nbsp; Secondly the Shari'a like the previous ones was not based on arbitrariness, but on cause and effect. For every action there must be a reaction. For example why did Allah command Moses to throw a twig in the water at Morah?&nbsp; When the Levi clan finally left Madina in 6 A.H, the Shari'a seized because of the absence of a cause- the Levi clan.<br>The world is certainly ignorant of the Scriptures. Its knowledge like empirical knowledge is the only way to across and mend our problems. Did those who read the book in website: sbpra.com//allamadrsanisalihmustapha failed to understand the continuity of the Message? &nbsp; <br>Everything has been explained. It is better we refer to such explanations rather than explaining the Sharia based on our inexperience, not as witness to its foundation and consolidation, but on our ignorance and bias.<br>Let us stop joking and insulting the purpose and design of this forum. Let us leave those who want to joke do so without assisting them. Assisting and inclining&nbsp; them is a sin.<br><br>Friendship.<br><br><br></div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>Wa Alaikkum As'alaam</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>No offence but I can't trust somebody who puts the Prophet (pbuh) above Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala. What I wrote above is in the Hadiths of the Prophet (pbuh). People like you give devine attributes to the Prophet (pbuh) when time and again he said that he was only a human being who made mistakes and YES who possibly sinned. Hence Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala revealed that all of his past and future sins are forgiven. The Prophet (pbuh) was just a man like you and me who ate, drank and slept and had sexual intercourse with his wives. There is nothing to be ashamed of for his actions because Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala accepte all of his actions.</div>]]>
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   <pubDate>Tue, 06 Nov 2012 03:18:26 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>C&#111;ntracts &amp; technical loopholes - what is : Assalamu alaikum.I have stopped...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24006&amp;PID=169812#169812</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=60288">Friendship</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24006<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 06 November 2012 at 3:09am<br /><br />Assalamu alaikum.<br><br>I have stopped discussing in this thread and others because there is insincerity from some members who want to understand Muhammad and that some Muslims give a distorted explanation. It is to be understood that understanding Muhammad begins with understanding what was revealed before him. It is not the responsibility of the follower of Muhammad to make one believe in him. I, want to be told what made Noah, Abraham, Isaac and others believed in Allah and obeyed His commands. The same signs are in the soul of all of us. They are present today. Allah says that he created all of us as believers. It is our parents that make us believers of otherwise.<br>It is wrong to portray Muhammad as having committed a sin because no one can ever pin point such sin. The Bible explains that it is the sinless that Allah Trusts and appoints as leaders. That was the reason behind the killing of the first born children and the appointment of the Levi tribes as those to hold the Torah. Prophet Jonah sinned but that was a lesson, likewise Solomon. <br>Allah refers to Muhammad on issues that are very serious and not that he has committed that offense. It was only during the time of Muhammad that honor, protection and rights were given to women. We should not forget that Surayya the wife of Amr was the first female martyr. The remarks of Amr ibn Al-As to the Negus king: "We use them, buy them sell them and discard them" reveals the position of females before. Allah addressed mankind to be extremely lenient to women. They can easily be broken. The last words of Muhammad was: your women your women.&nbsp; Secondly the Shari'a like the previous ones was not based on arbitrariness, but on cause and effect. For every action there must be a reaction. For example why did Allah command Moses to throw a twig in the water at Morah?&nbsp; When the Levi clan finally left Madina in 6 A.H, the Shari'a seized because of the absence of a cause- the Levi clan.<br>The world is certainly ignorant of the Scriptures. Its knowledge like empirical knowledge is the only way to across and mend our problems. Did those who read the book in website: sbpra.com//allamadrsanisalihmustapha failed to understand the continuity of the Message? &nbsp; <br>Everything has been explained. It is better we refer to such explanations rather than explaining the Sharia based on our inexperience, not as witness to its foundation and consolidation, but on our ignorance and bias.<br>Let us stop joking and insulting the purpose and design of this forum. Let us leave those who want to joke do so without assisting them. Assisting and inclining&nbsp; them is a sin.<br><br>Friendship.<br><br><br>]]>
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   <pubDate>Tue, 06 Nov 2012 03:09:21 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>C&#111;ntracts &amp; technical loopholes - what is :    Originally posted by nospam001It...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=70404">Abu Loren</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24006<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 05 November 2012 at 11:53pm<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by nospam001</strong></em><br /><br />It would save time supposing someone could refer back to my short narrative as posted on 23-Oct and point out which specific elements appear to be <em>incorrect</em>.  When doing so, please remember to substitute the word 'wife' in place of 'concubine'.</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>I think we already answered your question. If you missed it then here it is again.</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>Narrated 'Aishah:</div><div>&nbsp;<em>It was narrated that 'Aishah said: "The Messenger of Allah did not die until Allah permitted him&nbsp;to marry whatever women he wanted."</em></div><div><br>Reference : Sunan an-Nasa'i 3205</div><div>In-book reference : Book 26, Hadith 10</div><div>English translation : Vol. 4, Book 26, Hadith 3207<br></div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>The Prophet (pbuh) was given special privileges by Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala because he was a highly regarded slave of Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala. The Prophet (pbuh) was to fulfil an important mission for mankind, also note that Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala forgave his past and future sins.</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>If the Prophet (pbuh) was showing favouritism towards a wife that is because he was a human being and had all the faults of a human being. If you read his hadiths you will seee that time and again he reminds us that he was just a human being like you and me and prone to mistakes like you and me.</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>Btw I don't know if you know but some of the wives, especially the older ones gave up their rights on visits by the Prophet (pbuh) so that he can spend time with whomever he wanted to. Again read the hadiths to get the full picture.</div><span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by Abu Loren - 07 November 2012 at 11:20am</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Mon, 05 Nov 2012 23:53:13 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>C&#111;ntracts &amp; technical loopholes - what is :  Originally posted by Nothing Originally...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71203">nospam001</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24006<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 02 November 2012 at 10:08pm<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Nothing</strong></em><br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Abu Loren</strong></em><br /><br />Which begs the question why would a Muslimah marry a kufr? This is against the commands from the Holy Qur'an.</div>Bro, let him be, his being is not important to us.</div>My being thanks you for the support. <img src="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/smileys/smiley1.gif" border="0" align="middle" /> But seriously folks, Abu has raised an interesting question which I am happy to discuss - in an entirely <a href="http://www.islamicity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24197" target="_blank">separate thread</a>, of course. <br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Nothing</strong></em><br /><br />Can you please point it to the online tafsir, or if you don't mind can you link the verses clearly with their reasons? Sorry I am still some kind of lost here.</div>Normally I would. However, in this case, by citing tafsir about Maria I would only be helping to divert attention away from my original question.<br /><br />You acknowledged earlier that some of the wives were upset, and for an understandable reason. I take it you are not asking me for clarification on those key points. <div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Nothing</strong></em><br /><br />Mary gave him a son by the name Ibrohim. That was the reason he stopped by her house <strong>more than agreed</strong>, not for sex but to visit his son. But the other wives still <strong>did not like it</strong> regardless.</div>It would save time supposing someone could refer back to my short narrative as posted on 23-Oct and point out which specific elements appear to be <em>incorrect</em>.  When doing so, please remember to substitute the word 'wife' in place of 'concubine'.  ]]>
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   <pubDate>Fri, 02 Nov 2012 22:08:29 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>C&#111;ntracts &amp; technical loopholes - what is :   Originally posted by Abu LorenWhich...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=60805">nothing</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24006<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 02 November 2012 at 11:41am<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Abu Loren</strong></em><br /><br />Which begs the question why would a Muslimah marry a kufr? This is against the commands from the Holy Qur'an.</div><br>Bro, let him be, his being is not important to us. I still don't know where the links of these subjects to start with. I start have a feeling maybe those mufassirin which he said he relied upon were wrongly linked up the verses. The same thing happened with the famous Jalalain, where Salman rushdie got the idea for his "Satanic verses".<br><br><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by nospam001</strong></em><br /><br />The scholars didn’t seem to be beating around the bush on this point so I assumed that it was not a contentious matter</div><br>Can you please point it to the online tafsir, or if you don't mind can you link the verses clearly with their reasons? Sorry I am still some kind of lost here.<br><br><br>]]>
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   <pubDate>Fri, 02 Nov 2012 11:41:55 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>C&#111;ntracts &amp; technical loopholes - what is :   Originally posted by nospam001 Originally...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=70404">Abu Loren</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24006<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 02 November 2012 at 3:00am<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by nospam001</strong></em><br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Abu Loren</strong></em><br /><br />Well you brought up the subject of concubine falsely when Maria was one of the wives of the Prophet (pbuh).The scholars didn’t seem to be beating around the bush on this point so I assumed that it was not a contentious matter. However, there are people who clearly disagree so I sincerely regret my ill-advised use of the c-word. It had zero relevance to my original question, as I was careful enough to&nbsp;say in the <em>very next sentence</em> - and&nbsp;in&nbsp;several posts since then.<div><div class="BBquote">Btw I've seen your kind before. When they first join the a site, they are ever so polite and ask "oh is it ok of I ask this question?" then they say things like "my wife and kids are Muslims" to gain trust, then the 'real' reason comes out why they are here. It is to sow doubt and to defame and to slander.<br></div></div>If all I wanted was to 'sow doubt and to defame and to slander' then there would be more effective ways than posting bland questions on this site.&nbsp; Yes, my later questions are more direct, but if you perceive any hostility on my part then I guess we’ll just have to agree to differ on that. What can I do to convince you that I’m not lying?&nbsp;(Without revealing my daughters' identities. Please.)<br></div></div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>Which begs the question why would a Muslimah marry a kufr? This is against the commands from the Holy Qur'an.</div>]]>
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   <pubDate>Fri, 02 Nov 2012 03:00:22 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>C&#111;ntracts &amp; technical loopholes - what is :  Originally posted by Abu LorenWell...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71203">nospam001</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24006<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 01 November 2012 at 7:04pm<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Abu Loren</strong></em><br /><br />Well you brought up the subject of concubine falsely when Maria was one of the wives of the Prophet (pbuh).</div>The scholars didn’t seem to be beating around the bush on this point so I assumed that it was not a contentious matter. However, there are people who clearly disagree so I sincerely regret my ill-advised use of the c-word. It had zero relevance to my original question, as I was careful enough to&nbsp;say in the <em>very next sentence</em> - and&nbsp;in&nbsp;several posts since then.<DIV><div class="BBquote">Btw I've seen your kind before. When they first join the a site, they are ever so polite and ask "oh is it ok of I ask this question?" then they say things like "my wife and kids are Muslims" to gain trust, then the 'real' reason comes out why they are here. It is to sow doubt and to defame and to slander.<BR></div>If all I wanted was to 'sow doubt and to defame and to slander' then there would be more effective ways than posting bland questions on this site.&nbsp; Yes, my later questions are more direct, but if you perceive any hostility on my part then I guess we’ll just have to agree to differ on that. What can I do to convince you that I’m not lying?&nbsp;(Without revealing my daughters' identities. Please.)<BR></DIV>]]>
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   <pubDate>Thu, 01 Nov 2012 19:04:33 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>C&#111;ntracts &amp; technical loopholes - what is :   Originally posted by nospam001We...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=70404">Abu Loren</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24006<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 01 November 2012 at 12:41am<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by nospam001</strong></em><br /><br /><p>We seem to be getting off the topic here. What does this have to do with my original questions about duplicity, secrecy &amp; cover-up?<br>&nbsp;</p></div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>Well you brought up the subject of concubine falsely when Maria was one of the wives of the Prophet (pbuh).</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>Btw I've seen your kind before. When they first join the a site, they are ever so polite and ask "oh is it ok of I ask this question?" then they say things like "my wife and kids are Muslims" to gain trust, then the 'real' reason comes out why they are here. It is to sow doubt and to defame and to slander.</div>]]>
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   <pubDate>Thu, 01 Nov 2012 00:41:11 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>C&#111;ntracts &amp; technical loopholes - what is :  Originally posted by nothing...he...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71203">nospam001</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24006<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 31 October 2012 at 7:15pm<br /><br /><P><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by nothing</strong></em><br /><br />...he stopped by her house more than agreed, not for sex but to visit his son. But the other wives still did not like it regardless.</div><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Abu Loren</strong></em><br /><br />There is no proof whatsoever that Maria was a concubine of Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) but rather his wife.</div>We seem to be getting off the topic here. What does this have to do with my original questions about duplicity, secrecy &amp; cover-up?<BR></P><P>&nbsp;</P>]]>
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   <pubDate>Wed, 31 Oct 2012 19:15:59 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>C&#111;ntracts &amp; technical loopholes - what is :   Originally posted by nothing  Originally...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=70404">Abu Loren</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24006<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 31 October 2012 at 12:47am<br /><br /><div></div><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by nothing</strong></em><br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by nospam001</strong></em><br /><br />The 'concubine' referred to in most commentaries was Maria al-Qibtiyya (<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_al-Qibtiyya" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_al-Qibtiyya</a>).</div><br>Ok I will only to add my input concerning the above Mary the Copt position from the way I understand. The governor of Egypt sent the gift to the Prophet, and the gift were two slave girls, they were sisters, Mary and Serene. Since the Islamic injunction states a man can not <b>marry</b> sisters at the same time therefore the Prophet passed on Sirin to one of his companion. <br>Mary gave him a son by the name Ibrohim. That was the reason he stopped by her house more than agreed, not for sex but to visit his son. But the other wives still did not like it regardless.<br><br>Anyway that is my input concerning the irregular visit. So what do you think, sound reasonable?<br></div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>This nospam001 is here looking for trouble. There is no proof whatsoever that Maria was a <em>concubine </em>of Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) but rather his wife. If wikipedia is his source of reference then the same people lists his wives as thus :-</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>Prophet Muhammad (saw) had 12 wives, 9 were alive at the time of his death.<p>1.Hazrat Khadija Bint Khuwaylid, the only wife during his youth.<p>He married the rest in the following order after Khadija's death. They were all for social reasons (eg. widow, divorcee). The reason he had more than 4 wives, which is the maximum allowed, is that the verse limiting the number of wives was revealed after his marriages. After the revelation of the verse, he did not marry any more.<p>2. Hazrat Sawada Bint Zam'a <p>3. Hazrat A'isha Bint Abu Bakr <div>4.Hazrat Hafsa Bint 'Umar</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>5.Hazrat Zaynab Bint Khuzayma </div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>6.Hazrat Ummay Salama Hind Bint Abi Umayya </div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>7.Hazrat Zaynab Bint Jahsh </div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>8.Hazrat Juwayria Bint Al-Haritha </div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>9. Hazrat Umm Habiba Ramla Bint Bint Abi Sufyan </div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>10.Hazrat Safya Bint Huyayya </div><div><br>11.Hazrat Maymuna Bint Al-Haritha</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>12.Hazrat Maria al-Qibtiyya </div><div>&nbsp;</div><div><a href="http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Names_of_the_wives_of_Prophet_Muhammad_in_order_please" target="_blank">http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Names_of_the_wives_of_Prophet_Muhammad_in_order_please</a></div></div>]]>
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   <pubDate>Wed, 31 Oct 2012 00:47:50 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>C&#111;ntracts &amp; technical loopholes - what is :   Originally posted by nospam001The...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24006&amp;PID=169563#169563</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=60805">nothing</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24006<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 30 October 2012 at 11:50pm<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by nospam001</strong></em><br /><br />The 'concubine' referred to in most commentaries was Maria al-Qibtiyya (<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_al-Qibtiyya" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_al-Qibtiyya</a>).</div><br>Ok I will only to add my input concerning the above Mary the Copt position from the way I understand. The governor of Egypt sent the gift to the Prophet, and the gift were two slave girls, they were sisters, Mary and Serene. Since the Islamic injunction states a man can not <b>marry</b> sisters at the same time therefore the Prophet passed on Sirin to one of his companion. <br>Mary gave him a son by the name Ibrohim. That was the reason he stopped by her house more than agreed, not for sex but to visit his son. But the other wives still did not like it regardless.<br><br>Anyway that is my input concerning the irregular visit. So what do you think, sound reasonable?<br>]]>
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   <pubDate>Tue, 30 Oct 2012 23:50:12 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>C&#111;ntracts &amp; technical loopholes - what is :  Originally posted by Abu LorenIf...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24006&amp;PID=169535#169535</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71203">nospam001</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24006<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 30 October 2012 at 12:55am<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Abu Loren</strong></em><br /><br />If you had read and understood the opening verse of Surah 66 then you would have known that the Prophet was given privileges.</div>Yes, but did those privileges also include the special freedoms <em>to act in secret, contrary to an earlier understanding or promise and (when found out) to stop the truth from spreading?</em> If so then please say where. I can't&nbsp;find it&nbsp;in 33:50.]]>
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   <pubDate>Tue, 30 Oct 2012 00:55:32 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>C&#111;ntracts &amp; technical loopholes - what is :   Originally posted by nospam001The...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24006&amp;PID=169500#169500</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=70404">Abu Loren</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24006<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 29 October 2012 at 11:47am<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by nospam001</strong></em><br /><br /><p>The 'concubine' referred to in most commentaries was Maria al-Qibtiyya (<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_al-Qibtiyya" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_al-Qibtiyya</a>). </p><div>However, let me repeat: 'concubine' or 'honey pot' makes no difference. The 'engine' of this thread, to me anyway, is that Sura 66 deals severely with gossiping and eavesdropping, but tacitly approves of the <em>husband's</em> duplicity, secrecy and attempted cover-up i.e. it condones the fact that he acted <em>in secret, contrary to an earlier understanding or promise</em> and then, when found out, <em>tried to stop the truth from spreading</em>. These&nbsp;points are not disputed anywhere, as far as I can tell.&nbsp; </div><p>It may surprise you to discover that I'm <em>not</em> raising objections to polygamy and I'm <em>not</em> saying that the husband by 'managing' information was therefore guilty of any offence - legal <em>or moral</em>. I assume he had good reasons to act in that way, possibly something to do with local cultural norms of that era. I also assume that the Qur'an has good reasons for <em>condoning</em> those actions for all believers, <em>for all time</em>. My problem is that those reasons are not self-evident, at least not to me, not yet.</p><div>In&nbsp;this discussion, I am&nbsp;<em>not</em> looking for 'proof' - just a clarification that makes sense. Is that too much to hope for?</div></div><br><br>If you had read and understood the opening verse of Surah 66 then you would have known that the Prophet was given privileges.<br><br><font size="3">Sahih International</font><br><br><i><span id="verse_5230__6_c&#111;ntent">O  Prophet,  why  do  you  prohibit  &#091;yourself  from&#093;  what Allah has  made  lawful  for  you, seeking  the  approval  of  your  wives?  And Allah is  Forgiving  and  Merciful.</span></i> <br>66:1<br><br><i><span id="verse_3583__6_c&#111;ntent">O  Prophet,  indeed  We  have  made  lawful  to  you  your  wives  to  whom  you  have  given  their due  compensation  and  those  your  right  hand  possesses  from  what Allah has  returned to  you  &#091;of  captives&#093;  and  the  daughters  of  your  paternal  uncles  and  the  daughters  of  your paternal  aunts  and  the  daughters  of  your  maternal  uncles  and  the  daughters  of  your maternal  aunts  who  emigrated  with  you  and  a  believing  woman  if  she  gives  herself  to the  Prophet  &#091;and&#093;  if  the  Prophet  wishes  to  marry  her,  &#091;this  is&#093;  only  for  you,  excluding  the &#091;other&#093;  believers.  We  certainly  know  what  We  have  made  obligatory  upon  them concerning  their  wives  and  those  their  right  hands  possess,  &#091;but  this  is  for  you&#093;  in  order that  there  will  be  upon  you  no  discomfort.  And  ever  is Allah Forgiving  and  Merciful.</span></i> 33:50<br><br>]]>
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   <pubDate>Mon, 29 Oct 2012 11:47:27 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>C&#111;ntracts &amp; technical loopholes - what is :  Originally posted by nothingI...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24006&amp;PID=169349#169349</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71203">nospam001</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24006<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 24 October 2012 at 3:20pm<br /><br /><P><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by nothing</strong></em><br /><br />I have read once long time ago a small book about the Prophet's wives, it did not mention concubine or sort, unless if I missed it. To add more to it I am not fond with hadiths so that create a problem in the way I try to catch up with your point. It does seem though that this concubine is the engine of this thread. Who was she? The story I heard from one perspective, it was about honey smell, that is where the Prophet promised would not touch it again. So can you tell about who was that beautiful concubine, thanks.</div>The 'concubine' referred to in most commentaries was Maria al-Qibtiyya (<a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_al-Qibtiyya" target="_blank">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_al-Qibtiyya</A>). </P><DIV>However, let me repeat: 'concubine' or 'honey pot' makes no difference. The 'engine' of this thread, to me anyway, is that Sura 66 deals severely with gossiping and eavesdropping, but tacitly approves of the <em>husband's</em> duplicity, secrecy and attempted cover-up i.e. it condones the fact that he acted <em>in secret, contrary to an earlier understanding or promise</em> and then, when found out, <em>tried to stop the truth from spreading</em>. These&nbsp;points are not disputed anywhere, as far as I can tell.&nbsp; </DIV><P>It may surprise you to discover that I'm <em>not</em> raising objections to polygamy and I'm <em>not</em> saying that the husband by 'managing' information was therefore guilty of any offence - legal <em>or moral</em>. I assume he had good reasons to act in that way, possibly something to do with local cultural norms of that era. I also assume that the Qur'an has good reasons for <em>condoning</em> those actions for all believers, <em>for all time</em>. My problem is that those reasons are not self-evident, at least not to me, not yet.</P><DIV>In&nbsp;this discussion, I am&nbsp;<em>not</em> looking for 'proof' - just a clarification that makes sense. Is that too much to hope for?</DIV>]]>
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   <pubDate>Wed, 24 Oct 2012 15:20:37 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>C&#111;ntracts &amp; technical loopholes - what is :   Originally posted by nospam001Prior...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=60805">nothing</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24006<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 24 October 2012 at 1:21pm<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by nospam001</strong></em><br /><br />Prior to the revelation of Sura 66 the husband went to considerable lengths in order to appease his frustrated wives. He undertook to give equal attention to each in turn, and also to abstain from further relations with&nbsp;a particularly <b>beautiful&nbsp;concubine</b>, who was the focus of their jealousy.</div><br>I have read once long time ago a small book about the Prophet's wives, it did not mention concubine or sort, unless if I missed it. To add more to it I am not fond with hadiths so that create a problem in the way I try to catch up with your point. It does seem though that this <b>concubine</b> is the engine of this thread. Who was she? The story I heard from one perspective, it was about honey smell, that is where the Prophet promised would not touch it again. So can you tell about who was that beautiful concubine, thanks.<br>]]>
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   <pubDate>Wed, 24 Oct 2012 13:21:40 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>C&#111;ntracts &amp; technical loopholes - what is :   Originally posted by nospam001Note...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24006&amp;PID=169313#169313</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=70404">Abu Loren</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24006<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 24 October 2012 at 3:00am<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by nospam001</strong></em><br /><br /><p>Note that the words 'duplicity, secrecy and cover-up' passed by unchallenged, which is my main point.</p><p>Looking at S66 in isolation, the combined weight of sunna <em>plus</em> Qur'an could be used to justify <em>any</em> sort of cover-up, <em>whenever</em> the facts are felt to be inconvenient.</p><p>Presumably there are limits on such duplicity, but what are they? How do we deduce them from Qur'an or Hadith? Is the 'licence to deceive' reserved for certain situations only?</p><p>Or should the whole episode be regarded as a special case, not for others to emulate, since this particular husband (alone) 'was given the freedom to do whatever he wanted'?<br></p></div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>For your information, duplicity, secrecy and cover-up was exposed by God Himself so what further judgement do you need?</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>If you really believe that the combined weight of sunna plus Qur'an has been used to cover up a fault then that's your AGNOSTIC view. </div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>What people like you should do is fall down in prostration to the One True God and ask for repentence and seek guidance from him so that you are given knowledge and wisdom. No human being can help you if yo do not have God as a helper. Those whom He guides nobody can mis-guide and those whom he mis-guides nobody can guide.</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>If you always look for proof then you will never accept faith. Can you stand on top of a mountain and jump <strong>believing</strong>&nbsp;God can save you? Or are you a person who wants to look at the safety feature down below before you jump?</div>]]>
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   <pubDate>Wed, 24 Oct 2012 03:00:16 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>C&#111;ntracts &amp; technical loopholes - what is :  Originally posted by FriendshipNospam001,...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24006&amp;PID=169304#169304</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71203">nospam001</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24006<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 23 October 2012 at 8:07pm<br /><br /><P><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Friendship</strong></em><br /><br /><FONT size=4><FONT face="Times New Roman"><FONT color=#0000ff>Nospam001, it is high time YOU join your two daughters. You are causing an </FONT><FONT color=#ff0000>anguish</FONT><FONT color=#0000ff> on them. Please <B>love</B> them and show <B>leniency</B>. Why are you leaving them </FONT><FONT color=#ff0000>suspended</FONT><FONT color=#0000ff> in the air? Do you want them to </FONT><FONT color=#ff0000>fall down and break their bones</FONT><FONT color=#0000ff>? Who stopped the burying of the female infants? Think of your action towards your beautiful innocent female children! Any difference? Muhammad is certainly a mercy to you NOSPAM001.</FONT></FONT></FONT><BR></div>Since you ask: I was born and raised in an agnostic family or, if you prefer, Allah () has chosen to lead me astray as an example to others. Either way, I cannot start believing in something before it makes sense to me. (Not everyone has the same handicap, as I'm beginning to realise.)</P><P>Regarding my daughters: One day I imagine they too will stumble upon S66 and be gobsmacked by the same perplexing questions. I hope that by then I will have found an answer that might comfort them, supposing they ask&nbsp;me.&nbsp;(Surely, that's what any father would do.) Unfortunately, the rhetorical images of suspending, falling, breaking and burying are way too figurative and poetic for my feeble mind to grasp. If you want to change my thinking you may wish to try a different approach. Plain, everyday English prose usually works pretty well.<BR><img src="http://www.islamicity.com/forum/smileys/smiley2.gif" height="17" width="17" border="0" align="absmiddle" alt="Wink" /></P>]]>
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   <pubDate>Tue, 23 Oct 2012 20:07:32 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>C&#111;ntracts &amp; technical loopholes - what is :  Originally posted by Abu LorenWhat&amp;#039;s...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24006&amp;PID=169296#169296</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71203">nospam001</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24006<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 23 October 2012 at 3:32pm<br /><br /><P><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Abu Loren</strong></em><br /><br />What's the confusion? The Prophet Pbuh) has been given special privileges...the Prophet (pbuh) was given the freedom to do whatever he wanted.</div>Note that the words 'duplicity, secrecy and cover-up' passed by unchallenged, which is my main point.</P><P>Looking at S66 in isolation, the combined weight of sunna <em>plus</em> Qur'an could be used to justify <em>any</em> sort of cover-up, <em>whenever</em> the facts are felt to be inconvenient.</P><P>Presumably there are limits on such duplicity, but what are they? How do we deduce them from Qur'an or Hadith? Is the 'licence to deceive' reserved for certain situations only?</P><P>Or should the whole episode be regarded as a special case, not for others to emulate, since this particular husband (alone) 'was given the freedom to do whatever he wanted'?<BR></P>]]>
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   <pubDate>Tue, 23 Oct 2012 15:32:10 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>C&#111;ntracts &amp; technical loopholes - what is :   Originally posted by nospam001Some...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24006&amp;PID=169273#169273</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=70404">Abu Loren</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24006<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 23 October 2012 at 2:54am<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by nospam001</strong></em><br /><br />Some time later(?) - but before S66 was revealed - the husband realised that there was in fact no binding commitment.  Thus freed from any moral obligation he resumed relations with the same concubine, <em>in secret</em>. Things went smoothly until he was 'caught in the act' by one of his jealous wives. <em>Damage control then required her silence</em>. She duly swore she would keep the matter secret, but then broke her promise and told the other wives. As finally revealed, Sura 66 deals severely with gossiping and eavesdropping, but tacitly approves of the husband's duplicity, secrecy and attempted cover-up. <p></div></p><div>What's the confusion? The Prophet Pbuh) has been given special privileges thus the reason why Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala scolds the Prophet (pbuh) in saying "O Prophet why do you make unlawful what I have made lawful for you" (paraphrased).</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>The 'honeypot' scenario is also clearly explained in the Holy Qur'an.</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>As a side note : The Prophet indeed had his favourites, Zainab bint Jahsh and Aisha (Allah be pleased with them). This was not illegal in any sense of the word because the Prophet (pbuh) was given the freedom to do whatever he wanted. Some of the wives in understanding this gave up their visiting rights so that the could spend more time with them.</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>If you read his hadiths he constantly tells people that he is just a human being and he makes mistakes and has human desires just like you and me.</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div>&nbsp;</div><div></div>]]>
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   <pubDate>Tue, 23 Oct 2012 02:54:18 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>C&#111;ntracts &amp; technical loopholes - what is :  Originally posted by Abu LorenStop...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24006&amp;PID=169251#169251</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71203">nospam001</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24006<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 22 October 2012 at 3:57pm<br /><br /><P><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Abu Loren</strong></em><br /><br />Stop beating around the bush and ask clearly and precisely what you want to know. I think I'm right in saying that Muslims at this forum will not be offended.</div></P><P>Prior to the revelation of Sura 66 the husband went to considerable lengths in order to appease his frustrated wives. He undertook to give equal attention to each in turn, and also to abstain from further relations with&nbsp;a particularly beautiful&nbsp;concubine, who was the focus of their jealousy. (Some 'G-rated' commentaries talk instead of a 'honey pot'. Either way makes little difference to the core principles involved.) </P><P>In making this concession he had unwittingly spurned the unique honour of conjugal privileges given to him (alone) in S33:50-51, thereby offending the giver. That was his only mistake, for which he receives a gentle reprimand.</P><P>Some time later(?) - but&nbsp;before S66 was revealed - the husband realised that there was in fact no binding commitment.&nbsp; Thus freed&nbsp;from any moral obligation&nbsp;he resumed relations with the same concubine, <em>in secret</em>. Things went smoothly until he was 'caught in the act' by one of his jealous wives. <em>Damage control then required her silence</em>. She duly swore she would keep the matter secret, but then broke her promise and told the other wives.&nbsp;As finally revealed, Sura 66 deals severely with gossiping and eavesdropping, but&nbsp;tacitly approves&nbsp;of the husband's duplicity, secrecy&nbsp;and attempted cover-up. </P><P>Following an identical set of principles, the US Government now seeks to punish and make an example of Pvt Bradley Manning (for breaking an oath of secrecy) and Wikileaks (for incitement and spreading the secrets) while blatantly and shamelessly ignoring the much bigger moral issues - simply because the embarrassing facts were 'classified information' according to ... the US Government. </P><P>Supporters of the US say that's just an unavoidable part of being a world superpower. Even when you're the 'good guys', there will always be embarrassing facts that need to be kept from the people - and to think otherwise is just naive or st**id. Maybe the same is also true for a household comprising several wives. It would certainly explain a lot.<BR></P>]]>
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   <pubDate>Mon, 22 Oct 2012 15:57:07 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>C&#111;ntracts &amp; technical loopholes - what is :  &amp;lt;&amp;gt;     Normal   0 ...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24006&amp;PID=169172#169172</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=60288">Friendship</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24006<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 20 October 2012 at 3:43am<br /><br /><!--&#091;if gte mso 9&#093;><> <w:Word>  <w:View>Normal</w:View>  <w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom>  <w:TrackMoves/>  <w:Trackatting/>  <w:Punctuati&#111;nKerning/>  <w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/>  <w:SaveIfInvalid>false</w:SaveIfInvalid>  <w:IgnoreMixedC&#111;ntent>false</w:IgnoreMixedC&#111;ntent>  <w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>  <w:D&#111;notPromoteQF/>  <w:LidThemeOther>EN-US</w:LidThemeOther>  <w:LidThemeAsian>X-NONE</w:LidThemeAsian>  <w:LidThemeComplex>AR-SA</w:LidThemeComplex>  <w:Compatibility>   <w:BreakWrappedTables/>   <w:SnapToGridInCell/>   <w:WrapTextWithPunct/>   <w:UseAsianBreakRules/>   <w:D&#111;ntGrowAutofit/>   <w:SplitPgBreakAndark/>   <w:D&#111;ntVertAlignCellWithSp/>   <w:D&#111;ntBreakC&#111;nstrainedForcedTables/>   <w:D&#111;ntVertAlignInTxbx/>   <w:Word11KerningPairs/>   <w:CachedColBalance/>  </w:Compatibility>  <w:BrowserLevel>MicrosoftInternetExplorer4</w:BrowserLevel>  <m:mathPr>   <m:mathFont m:val="Cambria Math"/>   <m:brkBin m:val="before"/>   <m:brkBinSub m:val="--"/>   <m:smallFrac m:val="off"/>   <m:dispDef/>   <m:lMargin m:val="0"/>   <m:rMargin m:val="0"/>   <m:defJc m:val="centerGroup"/>   <m:wrapIndent m:val="1440"/>   <m:intLim m:val="subSup"/>   <m:naryLim m:val="undOvr"/>  </m:mathPr></w:Word></><!&#091;endif&#093;--><p ="introducti&#111;n"="" style="text-align:justify">Assalamu alaika nospam001.</p><p ="introducti&#111;n"="" style="text-align:justify">&nbsp;</p><p ="introducti&#111;n"="" style="text-align:justify">I thought you are referring toS.65.</p><p ="introducti&#111;n"="" style="text-align:justify">Madinan verses refers to the lifehistory /Sunna/Sharia/ of Muhammad Rasulullah. They have to be understoodaccording to the way he explained them. No one has the authority to mutilatehis explanation as such incidents or actions were witnessed by Allah and then commanded Muhammad on what to do. The Shari’a was not a cowboy action, a fairytale, folk tales or something of amusement and play. It is only what Allahcommanded Muhammad. Remember that homicide became a crime only after Abelkilled Cain. I will try to explain to you briefly. However note that you didnot mention the verses to be explained.</p><p ="introducti&#111;n"="" style="margin-left:.5in;text-align:justify;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">1.<span style="font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span></span><span dir="LTR"></span>The Shari’a of Muhammad was whatAllah commanded him following his action. That action in most cases was neverdone by a prophet or messenger before him for Muhammad was guided by previous Shari'a. </p><p ="introducti&#111;n"="" style="margin-left:.5in;text-align:justify;text-indent:-.25in;mso-list:l0 level1 lfo1"><span style="mso-list:Ignore">2.<span style="font:7.0pt &quot;Times New Roman&quot;">&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;</span></span><span dir="LTR"></span>As exemplary to mankind allactions stem from him and thus the Shari’a. No one can claim inability to beguided on such trivial issues since Muhammad stood as a man created to obeyAllah. (Unless scientists could be allowed to have a sample of the holyapostles DNA and then prove that we have a different gene that made us disobeyAllah, no one has an excuse of disobeying Allah). <br></p><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;;mso-ansi-:EN-US;mso-fareast-:EN-US;mso-bidi-:AR-SA"><span style="mso-spacerun:yes">&nbsp;</span>With referenceto 66:3, the Shari’a is on those practicing polygamy. </span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;;mso-ansi-:EN-US;mso-fareast-:EN-US;mso-bidi-:AR-SA">That human nature stemmedfrom polygamy. </span><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;;mso-ansi-:EN-US;mso-fareast-:EN-US;mso-bidi-:AR-SA"><span style="font-size:12.0pt;font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;,&quot;serif&quot;;mso-fareast-font-family:&quot;Times New Roman&quot;;mso-ansi-:EN-US;mso-fareast-:EN-US;mso-bidi-:AR-SA">It is a trivial issue (called lamama) that is forgiven by Allah on doing good deeds.</span>The details are given Maududis, and Syed Qutb translations ofthe Qur’an. I am not a polygamist andas such I cannot elaborate on my personal experience.&nbsp; <br>From this Shari'a wire tapping, eves dropping etc are not allowed. The case of Rupert Mudock proved the universality of the Shari'a of Muhammad. <br><font color="#0000FF" size="4">Nospam001, it is high time YOU join your two daughters. You are causing an <font color="#FF0000">anguish</font> on them. Please <b>love</b> them and show <b>leniency</b>. Why are you leaving them <font color="#FF0000">suspended</font> in the air? Do you want them to <font color="#FF0000">fall down and break their bones</font>? Who stopped the burying of the female infants? Think of your action towards your beautiful innocent female children! Any difference? Muhammad is certainly a mercy to you NOSPAM001.<br></font><br>Friendship.<br>&nbsp;<br></span><!--&#091;if gte mso 9&#093;><> <w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" DefUnhideWhenUsed="true"  DefSemi="true" DefQat="false" DefPriority="99"  LatentStyleCount="267">  <w:LsdExcepti&#111;n Locked="false" Priority="0" Semi="false"   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Qat="true" Name="Normal"/>  <w:LsdExcepti&#111;n Locked="false" Priority="9" Semi="false"   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Qat="true" Name="ing 1"/>  <w:LsdExcepti&#111;n Locked="false" Priority="9" Qat="true" Name="ing 2"/>  <w:LsdExcepti&#111;n Locked="false" Priority="9" Qat="true" Name="ing 3"/>  <w:LsdExcepti&#111;n Locked="false" Priority="9" Qat="true" Name="ing 4"/>  <w:LsdExcepti&#111;n Locked="false" Priority="9" Qat="true" Name="ing 5"/>  <w:LsdExcepti&#111;n Locked="false" Priority="9" Qat="true" Name="ing 6"/>  <w:LsdExcepti&#111;n Locked="false" Priority="9" Qat="true" Name="ing 7"/>  <w:LsdExcepti&#111;n Locked="false" Priority="9" 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Normal";	mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0;	mso-tstyle-colband-size:0;	mso-style-noshow:yes;	mso-style-priority:99;	mso-style-qformat:yes;	mso-style-parent:"";	mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;	mso-para-margin:0in;	mso-para-margin-bottom:.0001pt;	mso-pagination:widow-orphan;	font-size:10.0pt;	font-family:"Times New Roman","serif";}<!&#091;endif&#093;--><!--&#091;if gte mso 9&#093;><> <o:shapedefaults v:ext="edit" spidmax="1026"/></><!&#091;endif&#093;--><!--&#091;if gte mso 9&#093;><> <o:shapelayout v:ext="edit">  <o:id v:ext="edit" ="1"/> </o:shapelayout></><!&#091;endif&#093;--><span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by Friendship - 20 October 2012 at 3:44am</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Sat, 20 Oct 2012 03:43:57 +0000</pubDate>
   <guid isPermaLink="true">http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24006&amp;PID=169172#169172</guid>
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  <item>
   <title>C&#111;ntracts &amp; technical loopholes - what is :  Originally posted by nospam001So...</title>
   <link>http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=24006&amp;PID=169170#169170</link>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=70404">Abu Loren</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24006<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 20 October 2012 at 2:44am<br /><br /> <div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by nospam001</strong></em><br /><br />So far no-one has stepped forward to defend the moral correctness of the husband's actions.  It seems like a very simple and clear-cut question, until one utters his name.  <em>That</em> is when things suddenly get complicated, so I can totally understand people's difficulty with 'joining the dots'. Especially when we consider a few of the hadith that deal with untruthful behaviour, e.g. al-Bukhari, 33 & 1973. <br /><br />As possible <em>mitigating factors</em>, it has been suggested above that perhaps the original 'promise' was made either 'lightly' (in jest) or under duress. Viewed in this way, the subterfuge that followed was a benevolent act, so that his dearest wife would be spared the unnecessary pain of feeling cheated.<br /><br />I don't want to insult anyone by pointing to chapter and verse. If you find this approach too complicated then I suggest you choose a commentary of Sura 66 by any respected Muslim scholar, in any language. You'll soon have enough detail to fill in what I've left out. It's all in there, and the scholars evidently don't have a problem with it. This only reinforces the principle implied in the sura itself: <em>that it doesn't matter what you say to your wife, if it stops her nagging.</em> (But next time, be careful not to make a promise that is beyond your authority, okay?)<br /><br />My daughters (both Muslims) have been taught there are no 'bad' questions. Is it really a 'silly game' for me to ask for clarification, on their behalf?<br /></div> <br /><br />Stop beating around the bush and ask clearly and precisely what you want to know. I think I'm right in saying that Muslims at this forum will not be offended.]]>
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   <pubDate>Sat, 20 Oct 2012 02:44:15 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>C&#111;ntracts &amp; technical loopholes - what is : So far no-one has stepped forward...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71203">nospam001</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24006<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 19 October 2012 at 8:53pm<br /><br />So far no-one has stepped forward to defend the moral correctness of the husband's actions.  It seems like a very simple and clear-cut question, until one utters his name.  <em>That</em> is when things suddenly get complicated, so I can totally understand people's difficulty with 'joining the dots'. Especially when we consider a few of the hadith that deal with untruthful behaviour, e.g. al-Bukhari, 33 & 1973. <br /><br />As possible <em>mitigating factors</em>, it has been suggested above that perhaps the original 'promise' was made either 'lightly' (in jest) or under duress. Viewed in this way, the subterfuge that followed was a benevolent act, so that his dearest wife would be spared the unnecessary pain of feeling cheated.<br /><br />I don't want to insult anyone by pointing to chapter and verse. If you find this approach too complicated then I suggest you choose a commentary of Sura 66 by any respected Muslim scholar, in any language. You'll soon have enough detail to fill in what I've left out. It's all in there, and the scholars evidently don't have a problem with it. This only reinforces the principle implied in the sura itself: <em>that it doesn't matter what you say to your wife, if it stops her nagging.</em> (But next time, be careful not to make a promise that is beyond your authority, okay?)<br /><br />My daughters (both Muslims) have been taught there are no 'bad' questions. Is it really a 'silly game' for me to ask for clarification, on their behalf?<br />]]>
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   <pubDate>Fri, 19 Oct 2012 20:53:08 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>C&#111;ntracts &amp; technical loopholes - what is :   Well certainly &amp;#034;simple&amp;#034;...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=51697">abuayisha</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24006<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 11 October 2012 at 2:35pm<br /><br />Well certainly "simple" is relative, anyway, perhaps our Prophet's response was because of collusion, however there are several other instances of acts of jealously from his wife that he seemed to have taken lightly and in good cheer. I think with respect to rebuke and feeling cheated, men and women are equals.]]>
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   <pubDate>Thu, 11 Oct 2012 14:35:28 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>C&#111;ntracts &amp; technical loopholes - what is : Surah 66 giving us picture about...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=60805">nothing</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24006<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 11 October 2012 at 2:09pm<br /><br />Surah 66 giving us picture about his life with his wives. Here we can see that Muhammad as normal human with weakness toward his wives, in contrast what we have been hearing all the time that he was tough and dominant husband. Read this in conjunction with this verse below and you will see the picture better.<br><br>"And you will never be able to be equal &#091;in feeling&#093; between wives, even if you should strive &#091;to do so&#093;. So do not incline completely &#091;toward one&#093; and leave another hanging. And if you amend &#091;your affairs&#093; and fear Allah - then indeed, Allah is ever Forgiving and Merciful." (4:129) <br><br><br>]]>
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   <pubDate>Thu, 11 Oct 2012 14:09:18 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>C&#111;ntracts &amp; technical loopholes - what is :  Originally posted by nospam001I&amp;#039;m...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=70404">Abu Loren</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24006<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 11 October 2012 at 12:45pm<br /><br /> <div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by nospam001</strong></em><br /><br />I'm sorry for tiptoeing so delicately around the subject, but I really don't want to cause offence. Hopefully there's someone else reading this thread who is already acquainted with these moral questions, and who can point me to an authority that settles the matter using clear and precise logic. I'll then be one step closer to accepting Islam.</div> <br /><br />As'alaamu Alaikkum<br /><br />If the reason for you in accepting Islam hangs on this answer then don't accept Islam, you will be accepting Islam for the wrong reasons. Accept it only if you truly love God and you truly believe that there is no god but Allah and Muhammed (pbuh) is His slave and Messenger. Also you must make an oath to yourself that you will pray at the stipulated times, give to charity, fast and go on pilgrimage when you can afford to do so.<br /><br />Don't play silly games with your salvation.]]>
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   <pubDate>Thu, 11 Oct 2012 12:45:24 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>C&#111;ntracts &amp; technical loopholes - what is : Thanks abuayisha. We do seem to...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71203">nospam001</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24006<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 10 October 2012 at 2:57pm<br /><br /><P>Thanks abuayisha. We do seem to be approaching a common understanding. Yes, Sura 66 deals with a woman's jealousy. More precisely it deals with her jealous <EM>reaction</EM> to certain acts and omissions by her husband. Those same acts and omissions are referred to in the sura but are not 'dealt with' - with one notable exception, namely the husband's effrontery in setting a limit on the special freedoms previously granted to him.</P><P>Trying to keep it simple I was assuming that the answer to my original questions would <EM>not</EM> depend on gender. Clearly not everyone thinks that way. In Tolstoy's <EM>Anna Karenina</EM>, for example, Count Vronsky observes a moral principle that "one must never lie to a man, but one may to a woman." He would have seen nothing wrong in rebuking a woman for feeling cheated, while condoning her husband's attempt to hide the truth from her. Indeed, maybe that is the norm and anything else is the work of Shaytaan.<BR></P>]]>
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   <pubDate>Wed, 10 Oct 2012 14:57:02 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>C&#111;ntracts &amp; technical loopholes - what is : nospamoo1, This surah basically...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=51697">abuayisha</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24006<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 07 October 2012 at 10:08am<br /><br />nospamoo1, This surah basically deals with a woman's jealousy, and I think it would be helpful to&nbsp;pose your understanding of the verse and ask any clarifying questions you may have.&nbsp; I can only assume from your hypothetical analogy that perhaps you don't understand the context of this verse, and the issue of making oaths to Allah in Islam.&nbsp; One of the scholars of Islam once said, 'if I ask you to touch your ear, one would not expect that you would wrap your arm around the back of your head to reach your right ear using your left hand.'&nbsp; Let's just keep it simple.]]>
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   <pubDate>Sun, 07 Oct 2012 10:08:38 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>C&#111;ntracts &amp; technical loopholes - what is : In my dealings with atheists,...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=70404">Abu Loren</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24006<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 07 October 2012 at 5:41am<br /><br />In my dealings with atheists, theists, agnostics, unbelievers and the downright criminals is that it is like you are talking to a brick wall as they have no faith to begin with. No matter how much you reason with them, they will find an excuse to rebuttle and rebuke because they did not understood in the first place.<br /><br />No offence intended to any atheists, thiests, agnositcs and the downright criminals.]]>
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   <pubDate>Sun, 07 Oct 2012 05:41:26 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>C&#111;ntracts &amp; technical loopholes - what is : I&amp;#039;m sorry for tiptoeing so...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71203">nospam001</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24006<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 07 October 2012 at 3:07am<br /><br />I'm sorry for tiptoeing so delicately around the subject, but I really don't want to cause offence. Hopefully there's someone else reading this thread who is already acquainted with these moral questions, and who can point me to an authority that settles the matter using clear and precise logic. I'll then be one step closer to accepting Islam.]]>
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   <pubDate>Sun, 07 Oct 2012 03:07:34 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>C&#111;ntracts &amp; technical loopholes - what is : Assalamu alaika. nospam001First...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=60288">Friendship</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24006<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 07 October 2012 at 12:48am<br /><br />Assalamu alaika. nospam001<br><br>First of all you have to put your coordinates correct.<br>You said earlier on: An agnostic is simply someone who is unsure what to believe. It seems you do not have an authority transcending through every matter. There are no basic facts evidences subjected to you as coordinates to stimulate you to think. Imagine this verse: Does not man remember that We created him before, while he was nothing? The next verse says: So by your Lord, surely, We shall gather them.....(Qur'an 19:67-68).<br><br>Sura 66 is a Madinan Sura attached to Sura 2. I cannot find anything leading to deception in the Sura.&nbsp; Also note that your saying or understanding that: ... or has it been excluded from sunnah by some other fatwa or piece of scripture... is wrong and not accepted. There is no fatwa that obliterates the Sunna. This what the Wahabis and Salafis are confusing you with. Fatwa is actually an elucidation on the Sunna and never intends to be making a 'law'.&nbsp; <br>Probably you do not understand what is 'epidemiology'. Epidemiology is to relate cause with incidents. The best example is that of tracing the cause of 'cholera' in London to a tap of water. That data is still valid today. Now who is the G-d of Abraham? Is he still the same G-d of one created from a male and a female? For what purpose was Abraham created?<br><br>Friendship.<br><br>]]>
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   <pubDate>Sun, 07 Oct 2012 00:48:14 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>C&#111;ntracts &amp; technical loopholes - what is : My question is about Sura 66 and...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71203">nospam001</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24006<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 06 October 2012 at 5:07pm<br /><br />My question is about Sura 66 and whether that particular form of tactical deception is condoned for all Muslims, or has it been excluded from sunnah by some other fatwa or piece of scripture. <br /><br />I realise that it can be helpful and persuasive to use carefully chosen examples that your audience can relate to. However, this strategy can backfire if the specific details divert attention from the more general and abstract 'core' of the question. That's what I was trying to avoid in my original post, where I was careful not to mention Sura 66. The apparent precedent (given its documented context) is clear enough that one could use a simple analogy involving children without any loss of relevance, as far as moral guidance is concerned.<br /><br />But if you think it will help, do feel free to draw on epidemiology. I'm always curious to learn... <img src="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/smileys/smiley1.gif" border="0" align="middle" /> ]]>
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   <pubDate>Sat, 06 Oct 2012 17:07:05 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>C&#111;ntracts &amp; technical loopholes - what is : Assalamu alaika nospam001.Sorry...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=60288">Friendship</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24006<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 05 October 2012 at 10:09pm<br /><br />Assalamu alaika nospam001.<br><br>Sorry my brother. You can only deal with terrorism, Al-Qaeda and Taliban if you listen understand and help in establishing the true Islam that is the Sunna of Muhammad Rasulullah. Listen Muhammad calls and directs one to speak to one according to his baseline and mental capacity. I have already made it clear that Allah mentions infertility in the Qur'an. Muhammad did not mention the causes. But gave a lead to fusion of sperm and ova. I said, bring medical personnel from all walks of faith or what you call religion to mention the causes of infertility. Will they speak the same thing?<br>Data analysis is knew but probably close to epidemiology my field of study. Is it so that I can discuss on that line?<br><br>Friendship.<br>]]>
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   <pubDate>Fri, 05 Oct 2012 22:09:21 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>C&#111;ntracts &amp; technical loopholes - what is :  Originally posted by FriendshipPlease...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71203">nospam001</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24006<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 04 October 2012 at 11:07pm<br /><br /><div class="BBquote"><strong><em>Originally posted by Friendship</strong></em><br /><br />Please tell us your profession so that you will the sign that will make you sure to believe in Muhammad.</div><br />The hypothetical scenario above has nothing to do with my own profession as data analyst. I'm sorry if my second post didn't make that clear. <br /><br />Are you saying an agnostic is someone who already believes in Islam - <em>unconsciously</em> - therefore there is no need to discuss further?  <img src="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/smileys/smiley1.gif" border="0" align="middle" /> ]]>
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   <pubDate>Thu, 04 Oct 2012 23:07:58 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>C&#111;ntracts &amp; technical loopholes - what is : Assalamu alaika nospam001.I am...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=60288">Friendship</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24006<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 04 October 2012 at 10:20pm<br /><br />Assalamu alaika nospam001.<br><br>I am extremely delighted by your honest comment. I will give the glad tidings of what Muhammad told his arch enemy his cousin/nephew Abu Jahl who was called Abu Hakeem ( the father of wisdom) before the beginning of revelation. Muhammad told him it is impossible that you do not understand the G-d of Abraham. We also read that Khalid ibn Walid confessed that at the beginning of revelation he did not put any interest and concern in&nbsp; hearing what Muhammad was saying. He was then a young lad probably about 17 years old.<br>It is impossible for one not to be sure what to believe. It is not allowed in Islam to waste time and to talk to one outside the sphere he will understand Muhammad for every second is important. Please tell us your profession so that you will the sign that will make you sure to believe in Muhammad.<br><br>Friendship.<br>]]>
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   <pubDate>Thu, 04 Oct 2012 22:20:07 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>C&#111;ntracts &amp; technical loopholes - what is : Thank you for your reply. Although...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71203">nospam001</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24006<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 03 October 2012 at 3:02pm<br /><br />Thank you for your reply. <br /><br />Although my scenario is hypothetical, the same actions do seem to be condoned in Sura 66 (Al-Tahreem). Supposing this is true - and it is consistent with several respected commentaries - then I'm wondering if that sets a precedent for others to follow, or if there is some other fatwa or piece of scripture that explains why it should not apply universally with the authority of both Qur'an and Sunnah.<br /><br />An agnostic is simply someone who is unsure what to believe. Other than that, there's no set of beliefs or practices that define 'agnosticism'. ]]>
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   <pubDate>Wed, 03 Oct 2012 15:02:00 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>C&#111;ntracts &amp; technical loopholes - what is : Assalamu alaika. nospam001.   Since...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=60288">Friendship</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24006<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 03 October 2012 at 2:18pm<br /><br />Assalamu alaika. nospam001. <DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>Since you are a male agnostic, I do not know how to explain what Muhammad said. Just to know that hypothetical situations are not part of the Sunna of Muhammad. Muhamamd and hence Islam respects all forms of submission to Allah. What is it in agnostism?</DIV><DIV>&nbsp;</DIV><DIV>Friendship</DIV><span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by Friendship - 03 October 2012 at 2:20pm</span>]]>
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   <pubDate>Wed, 03 Oct 2012 14:18:46 +0000</pubDate>
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   <title>C&#111;ntracts &amp; technical loopholes - what is : Please help me with some moral...</title>
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    <![CDATA[<strong>Author:</strong> <a href="http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/member_profile.asp?PF=71203">nospam001</a><br /><strong>Subject:</strong> 24006<br /><strong>Posted:</strong> 02 October 2012 at 7:54pm<br /><br />Please help me with some moral guidance for this hypothetical scenario:<br /><br />Suppose I promise something to you but later I discover a technical loophole that means my promise was invalid and is therefore not legally binding. Is it OK for me to start exploiting that advantage straight away, in secret, without telling you first? <br /><br />If someone else finds out what I'm doing, can I make them promise not to tell you? Supposing you do hear about it and then feel 'cheated', would you deserve to be rebuked for failing to recognise the loophole yourself?<br /><br />Are there any sura/hadith that clarify what is acceptable? For example, does the answer depend on other details not already specified above?<span style="font-size:10px"><br /><br />Edited by nospam001 - 02 October 2012 at 8:04pm</span>]]>
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