IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum This is an XML content feed of; IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Interfaith Dialogue : CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES Wed, 22 May 2013 21:21:44 +0000 Tue, 05 Mar 2013 15:14:59 +0000 http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/tech/rss Web Wiz Forums 8.04 360 www.IslamiCity.com/forum/RSS_post_feed.asp?TID=23672 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_images/ICForum_Logo.gif http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Friendship, The only "labyrinth"... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=174714#174714 Author: Larry
Subject: 23672
Posted: 05 March 2013 at 3:14pm

Friendship,

   The only "labyrinth" here are your evasions and non-answers to my specific statements. You proceed from the notion that my religious beliefs are a "labyrinth" that needs to be "straightened" somehow, I assume this means that "labyrinth" is Judaism and/or Christianity, and will only be "straightened" by accepting Islam. The idea that the "creator has many faces and sides" is simply an attempt to rationalize beliefs that are not defensible from a scholarly point-of-view. God Himself is One and has no "faces and sides" such as those of pagan idols and revisionist beliefs that seek to portray Him as something other than the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. You, and some other, Muslims on this forum simply say or imply that "truth" is based on belief in Islam and any other belief is simply incorrect, based on their own faith, not an scholarly debate on the merits and discrepancies between the Old and New Testaments and the Qur'an.
   As I have said, I am content to recommend that anyone having religious questions as to Christianity and Islam should carefully read the Old and New Testaments and also the Qur'an and then make up their mind as to which "book" is the true message of God. Surely that is acceptable to you as a dispassionate contributor to this "forum?"

Larry
   

Edited by Larry - 05 March 2013 at 3:20pm]]> Tue, 05 Mar 2013 15:14:59 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=174714#174714 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Salaam.Good Larry! You have defined... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=174672#174672 Author: Friendship
Subject: 23672
Posted: 04 March 2013 at 3:44am

Salaam.

Good Larry! You have defined your self very clear and the labyrinth you have twined cannot be straightened except by you. It is correct that you believe in the creator of the heavens and the earth. However that creator has many faces and sides. If that is the case there is no need for this forum for it cannot achieve or solve anything. Let us follow the simple rule of like poles.

Friendship.
]]> Mon, 04 Mar 2013 03:44:30 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=174672#174672 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Greetings, I'm not sure... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=174605#174605 Author: Larry
Subject: 23672
Posted: 01 March 2013 at 2:48am

Greetings,

I'm not sure what you mean when you say that you "believe" in the Talmud. The Talmud is not the Torah or Old Testament, it contains the opinions of thousands of rabbis on a variety of subjects. Rabbinic tradition considers it second to the Torah, but it is not actual holy text. I think you are confusing it for the Torah.

I believe that Muhammad was an actual person who lived in 7th century Arabia and claimed to have received revelations from God through the angel Gabriel. I'm sorry but I do not believe that Muhammad was a true prophet of God, or that he was any kind of prophet whatever. The Biblical standard for a true prophet is one who makes specific prophecies that are later proved to be true. I have seen no evidence whatsoever that Muhammad ever made any specific prophecies at all. Likewise I do not believe that Allah is the same God Who is worshipped by Jews and Christians. Allah was a pre-Islamic pagan Arab god who was worshipped at the Kaaba, along with many other idols, including the "black stone." Every part of the Hajj in Mecca is pre-Islamic in origin. The running between the hills, stoning the devil, circumnambulating the Kaaba a certain number of times, kissing, touching or pointing at the "black stone," etc. How this can be interpreted as referring to the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob I have no idea. Abraham was over a hundred years old when Isaac was born. Hagar and Ishmael were sent away and Abraham never saw them in person again, and he certainly didn't travel to Southern Arabia to build the original Kaaba with Ishmael, this is simply a later Islamic invention.

Jerusalem, the "third holiest city" to Muslims is never mentioned even once in the Qur'an. Jerusalem is mentioned 667 times in the Bible and was, and still is, the holiest city for Jews and Christians. If Muhammad was a true prophet, why did he never mention Jerusalem by name, nor did Gabriel reveal the name Jerusalem when he delivered his revelations from Allah? Ibn Taymiyya said that there "was no place in Jerusalem that one could call sacred and the same holds true for the tombs of Hebron." The Qur'an itself is difficult to read, repeating itself over and over and gives conflicting views of how the "people's of the book" are to be seen and treated by Muslims. The Old and New Testaments compliment each other to an amazing degree, which is even more surprising when it is considered that the Old and New Testaments were written at different times in history and by at least 66 diferent authors. In contrast, the Qur'an, which is said to be the revealed truth of Allah through Gabriel to Muhammad, has many inconsistencies and discrepancies from both the Old and New Testaments, something you would not expect for a "holy" book that was supposedly in the same line of prophecy as the Old and New Testaments. The only way these discrepancies can be explained from an Islamic viewpoint is that the Jews and Christians "corrupted" their own holy texts. But Muslims can never seem to show just what parts of the Bible are true and which specific verses are "corrupted" text. It is simply said that any part of the Bible that supports the Qur'anic teachings is true and any that contradict the Qur'an are "corrupted" texts. I don't say that Muslims worship a false God or that Islam is not a true religion of God. My personal beliefs are that Allah is NOT the God of the Jews and Christians, Muhammad was not a true prophet of God and that Islam is not a true "Abrahamic" religion that is a continuation of the line of prophecy and content of the Old and New Testaments.

As you said, no one can force me to believe anything, my beliefs are just that, my personal beliefs. Using the Qur'an to prove the truth and accuracy of the Qur'an is not a methodology that I would accept, how could it say anything else? It would be like me trying to convince you that jesus Christ is the Son of God using the New Testament as proof? If you think I am rejecting the "true" religion and will certainly go to hell for it is fine, you are entitled to your beliefs, as I am for mine. As far as "encouraging those who know nothing of Islam from unexpalined texts," I have no idea of what you mean. I would simply say to a person who knows nothing of the Bible or the Qur'an that they should read the Old and New Testaments and the Qur'an and make their minds up after reading all three texts. The Qur'an says to kill your enemies who persecute you but Jesus Christ taught us to love our enemies and do good to those who persecute us.

My statement of belief is this:

"I believe in God the Father Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth: And in Jesus Christ His only Son our Lord: who was conceieved by the Holy Spirit, born of the Virgin Mary: suffered under Pontius Pilate, was crucified, dead and buried: He descended into hell: the third day He rose again from the dead: He ascended into heaven, and sits at the right hand of God the Father Almighty: from there he shall come to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit: the holy catholic (meaning "universal") Church: the communion of saints: the forgiveness of sins: the resurrection of the body: and the life everlasting."

That's about all I can say about my personal beliefs as a Christian. And you have every right to believe that Islam and the Qur'an are the true religion. No one here, you or I, is going to change their religious viewpoints, so the best thing is to say that I hope your religion brings you as much comfort and spiritual guidance as mine does for me.

Peace

Edited by Larry - 01 March 2013 at 3:01am]]> Fri, 01 Mar 2013 02:48:30 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=174605#174605 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Assalamu alaikum.Still there is... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=174566#174566 Author: Friendship
Subject: 23672
Posted: 27 February 2013 at 2:06am

Assalamu alaikum.

Still there is no logic and sense in you talking of the Qur'an and Muhammad. I talk of the Talmud because I believe in it and Allah will make be believe in it. If you do not believe in Muhammad, you will never believe in him. No one will ever force you or convince you to believe in something you consciously reject.  It is just like a prescription. Take that which is of benefit to you. You cannot deny the efficacy of the rest.
We believed in all the Messengers and Prophets from Allah. They name the one to come immediately after  they die. Moses mentioned Joshua and Joshua handed the mantle to Caleb. This is the series also mentioned in the Qur'an. Thus why Jesus mentioned Muhammad for he is to come after him.
The greatest mistake has been done. This is encouraging those who no nothing of Islam to read about it from unexplained texts.
]]> Wed, 27 Feb 2013 02:06:32 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=174566#174566 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Friendship, You say it is not... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=174540#174540 Author: Larry
Subject: 23672
Posted: 26 February 2013 at 1:06am

Friendship,

   You say it is not wise and advisable to read the Qur'an and then reject it. But I have read the Qur'an and I found it repetitious, the same things being said over and over, the discrepancies in it concerning how the "Peoples of the Book" are to be seen and treated by Muslims is very apparent. I'm not slamming the Qur'an, I am simply saying what I felt after reading the entire book. It has no coherent form, no linear quality of earliest to latest, some of the revelations that concerned the personal life of Muhammad seemed a little too convenient when they make an exception for Muhammad, as in the matter of Aisha, the daughter of the companion Abu Bakr, for example. I don't reject it, I simply do not believe that it is truly from God Himself, revealed through Gabriel.
   You say "there was no Messenger or Prophet sent a body called "Christians." How you came up with that I have no idea. It was the coming of Jesus Christ Himself that instituted the religion called after Him, Christianity. There could be no "Christianity" until after the birth, life, death and ressurection of Jesus Christ, He is Christianity. Christians believe that Jesus Christ is the Messiah, prophesied by the Hebrew prophets such as Isaiah, and is literally the Son of God. I know you can't accept the idea that God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit are all of the same substance, and are not three separate "deities."
   George Bush and Tony Blair did not make war against the "Arabs," they made war against seriously deluded supposed "Muslims" such as Al Qaeda and the Taliban, who harbored Osama bin Laden after the terrorist attacks in New York, Washington and Flight 93. It was sheer and naked murder of 3,000 innocent people who did no more than show up for work, or take a scheduled flight, on that hideous day. The Americans in Afghanistan aren't making war against "Arabs" or "Muslims," they are making war, along with the Afghan government, on terrorists who kill many more Muslims than they do Americans or other coalition troops. For you to say that "Al-Qaeda, Taliban and Boko Haram is the doing of the Western civilization and their cohorts in the Muslim world," is obscene it it's ignorance and naievete. It is Al Qaeda, the Taliban and Boko Haram that are causing death and destruction to Muslims every day. Just look at Pakistan, the constant bombings and murders of innocent Muslims by these God-forsaken monsters is evidently something that you find admirable. Boko Haram kills foreign doctors who come to Mali to innoculate the children against polio, Mali being one of the very few countries where polio still exists. It is their ignorance and uncivilized mindlessness that teaches that Western medicine is somehow bad for Muslim children. It is obscene that children will continue to be paralyzed by this preventable disease because of the st**idity and gross ignorance of "Boko Haram," a ridiculous organization that deserves to be eliminated from the earth.
   It is the constant warfare between Sunni and Shiite Muslims that is tearing the "Arabic" and Iranian countries apart. Every day I look at the news from the Middle East and it is always the same, ruthless, pitiless terror and murder of innocent Muslims in marketplaces, or even in religious processions and gatherings, mostly of Shiites. "Suicide bombers" who chant "Allahu Akbar" as they senselessly murder other Muslims, is that something that the "West" inflicted on the Muslim world? Islam needs to get it's house in order before it accuses "Western Christian civilization" of creating this worldwide fundamentalist terrorism by Al Qaeda, the Taliban and Boko haram, among others.
   As to whether God told "Moses" about Muhammad makes no difference. Moses doesn't name all the other Hebrew prophets, most of which lived long after Moses died. The fact is that the Hebrew Torah and Christian New Testament reveal the names of every single prophet of God, but strangely does not reveal the name of Muhammad, the supposed "Seal of the Prophets." That is because Muhammad lived long after the Torah was written as well as the New Testament. That is why I cannot believe that Muhammad was truly a prophet, especially since the meaning of the word prophet is someones who prophsises future events that then take place, just as prophesied. I have never seen even one prophecy made by Muhammad, let alone any that were later proved to be accurate, the Biblical standard for a prophet of God.
   You say that Muhammad "banished" the Qurayza, I believe there were 800 Jewish men and boys of the Qurayza tribe that were murdered on the orders of Muhammad, because they did not support him in battle.
   The "Arabic language" has nothing to do with the Talmud, period. And the idea that by reciting the Qur'an in Arabic, even if the reciter does not understand the words he is speaking, is almost to give the Qur'an the status of something that is holy unto itself, the "magic" being in the language and not what is being said by non-Muslim speakers. This seems to be the definition of "shirk," along with things as the Tomb of Muhammad, the Black Stone and even the Kaaba itself, objects or places that inspire veneration of anything other than Allah.
   Bud, I am not angry or upset with you as a person, but I do feel that I have the right and freedom to express my opinions just as you do. You "reject" as a "fairy tale" bedrock Christian beliefs and practices. I have no problem with that, it's what you believe.
   That is what makes forums like this valuable. I can respect you as a person without necessarily agreeing with you on your beliefs and ideas. I have strong opinions too, and I'm not shy about saying so, but that is the way I am.

Hope you are well and content,

Larry]]> Tue, 26 Feb 2013 01:06:33 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=174540#174540 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : top <> Normal ... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=174533#174533 Author: Friendship
Subject: 23672
Posted: 25 February 2013 at 2:47pm

top

Assalaamu alaika Larry.

It seems as if you are confused and you do not know what you want to learn andthen reject. You cannot teach me what is revealed to Muhammad.It is not wise and advisable to read the Qur'an and then reject it. Those Muslims advising free and open reading the Qur'an are really deceiving you and putting you in more punishment. Be sure that Allah will ask you by the time you are placed in your grave what was lacking to convince you from the verses you quoted. As for me the more I read the Talmud the more I believed in Allah and the Muhammad Rasulullah. So take my advice to and stop reading the Qur'an. If the Talmud does not convince you to obey Allah, the Qur'an cannot.  

You said: You say that they are not named in the Biblebecause they were prophets who were not from the children of Jacob. This makesabsolutely no sense. If being from the "Children of Jacob" is aBiblical standard for naming prophets, then ANY prophet not from Jacob'slineage would not be named in the Bible.

Response: You are ignorant of what you claim to have believedand had studied assiduously. If you look into the book of Chronicles there isa definite line of prophets from the Children of Jacob. The Qur’an confirmedthat. Study carefully Qur’an 6:83-91. Let us go by the teaching of Muhammad thehated and despised Messenger of Allah by you (I am referring to your intellect and not person). He taught us to ask the Childrenof Israel on whatever we are in doubt or want to know about what was revealedto their prophets. You will never understand that because historians exceptvery few never mentioned the life history of the Levi clan of the children ofIsrael in Madina. Muhammad knew only them. The Rabbis I asked always politelyadmit knowing nothing about them and Muhammad because they are not mentioned intheir books. There is no place of ignorance and arrogance if we want tounderstand one another and stop shedding blood and aiding those behind thatindecent act. Secondly there are 52 states in USA. I visited only two- LA andHawaii. In Hawaii, I was in John Hopkins University and I can still rememberthe lecture hall, the dining hall, the beach and the kind gesture of theUniversity secretary in giving me a bus to take me for the friday prayer. Icannot say anything about the rest of the states. I will be a liar to say that.Please consider and regard revelation in that stream and chain.

You said:  Yet Muslim believe that this civilizationthat was "CHOSEN BY THE CREATOR OF THE HEAVENS AND EARTH TO TEACH TO HUMANBEINGS HIS LAWS..." has corrupted these very same Laws of God and changedthe Hebrew Bible from what was originally given to them by God Himself. I'm notsure why God, Who knows and sees everything, didn't foresee that the Jews (andlater Christians) would corrupt His own messages to humanity.

Response: Those Muslims were/are the ones the WesternChristian civilization befriends listens to and accept as the authority in makingclear what Muhammad made clear. Those were/are the enemies of Western Christiancivilization. In the early or mid USA/Britain invasion of Iraq, I wrote to yourPresident George Bush and his friend PM Blair warning them of the dangers of engagingthemselves in war with the Arabs whom the Roman Empire Generals described as ‘Peoplelooking seeking and desiring for death and never retreat. If a sword can piercea rock then it can pierce their skin.” They turned a deaf ear and blind eye tomy advice. What I warned them has been confirmed on Sunday in this video program:

http://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/empire/2013/02/2013222191052356555.html.The influence of Al-qaeeda, Taliban and Boko Haram is the doing of the Western Christiancivilization and their cohorts in the Muslim world. No practicing follower ofMuhammad will ever tell you that there is corruption in the Talmud- which isdifferent from the Old Testament. If you would take the pains of reading thatbook, you will understand that no one has the right to blame the Jews/Childrenof Israel in what they did. It is a sin to blame them. The G-d of Abraham willcertainly forgive them, for that was His Command, Decree, Will. They could notescape it. The Jews are different from the Christians. There was no Messengeror Prophet sent a body called ‘Christians’.

You said: The Qur'an is the ONLY "finaltestament" that does not fit together with the original Old and NewTestaments.

Response: It is only those who cannot speak Arabiclanguage are illiterate of the contents of the Talmud (not the Old Testament)knowing nothing on the life history of Muhammad in Madina from hijra to thebanishment of the Banu Qurayza that saw discrepancies. I do not find a dot or alead to it in the Talmud of another G-d other than that of Abraham. If you willexpect Allah to reveal to Muhammad verbatim all what was revealed from Adam toJesus son of Maryam, Muhammad then must be alive today!

You said:  And lastly, it is shocking that the HebrewBible never specifically mentions the ACTUAL name of Muhammad, the final"seal" of the Jewish Biblical prophets. He is the ONLY prophet who isnot specifically named, a complete and total departure from Biblical tradition.But I suppose the Jews "corrupted" the name of Muhammad out of theirown Bible, a "prophet" sent to them by God Himself.

Response: Larry, if you are to scrutinize what transpiredbetween Moses and the G-d of Abraham how could you expected the G-d of Abrahamto tell Moses of Muhammad. What was actually given to Moses in the tablet isonly know to him. If Moses did not at least Jesus son of Maryam said that inQur’an 61:6. According to Muhammad, a prophet always mentions the name of theprophet after him.

Lastly, what is the value and essence of this forum whilewhatever one says is rejected as a lie and a fairy tale?  

Friendship.





Edited by Friendship - 25 February 2013 at 2:56pm]]> Mon, 25 Feb 2013 14:47:04 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=174533#174533 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Friendship, The names of Shu'aib,... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=174481#174481 Author: Larry
Subject: 23672
Posted: 23 February 2013 at 1:08pm

Friendship,

   The names of Shu'aib, Salih, Zulqarnain and Luqman, are not mentioned in the Jewish Bible because they are ARABIC names of people mentioned in the Qur'an but completely absent from the Torah or Jewish Bible.

   Salih (Arabic "Pious") is an Arabic prophet of ancient Arabia, mentioned in the Qur'an but not named anywhere in the Jewish Bible. Shu'aib is sometimes equated to "Shelah" of the Hebrew Bible, but there is virtually nothing in common between the two. Shu'aib is linked to the ancient Arabic story of the "She Camel."

   Shu'aib (Arabic) is absent from the Jewish tradition. He is sometimes identified with the Biblical Midian priest, Jethro, by Muslims, but this view is rejected by virtually all modern scholars, as there is no independent (except in the Qur'an) solid historical grounding for this belief.

   Zulqarnain (Arabic) Is also never named in the Hebrew Bible. The Qur'an says that Zulqarnain is a historical figure. Yusuf Ali states that Zulqarnain is Alexander the Great, but there is absolutely no scholarly basis for this belief at all.

   Luqman (Arabic) unknown to the Jewish Bible, was supposedly a wise man for whom the 31st Surah of Luqman is named. He is supposedly dated to 1100 B.C. and was believed to be from Africa.

   It is no wonder that none of these Arabic names are mentioned in the Hebrew Bible. You say that they are not named in the Bible because they were prophets who were not from the children of Jacob. This makes absolutely no sense. If being from the "Children of Jacob" is a Biblical standard for naming prophets, then ANY prophet not from Jacob's lineage would not be named in the Bible.

   The surprising statement of yours that "The Israelites are mentioned (in the Qur'an) because they were the civilization (human beings) chosen by the Creator of the heavens and the earth to teach to human beings His Laws and what is required from them.

   Yet Muslim believe that this civilization that was "CHOSEN BY THE CREATOR OF THE HEAVENS AND EARTH TO TEACH TO HUMAN BEINGS HIS LAWS..." has corrupted these very same Laws of God and changed the Hebrew Bible from what was originally given to them by God Himself. I'm not sure why God, Who knows and sees everything, didn't forsee that the Jews (and later Christians) would corrupt His own messages to humanity.

   The "reason" that the Hebrew and Christian Bibles, in Muslim belief, must have been "corrupted" by the Jews and Christians themselves, was because of the discrepancies and errors between these two "Testaments" of God and the Qur'an. The Qur'an is the ONLY "final testament" that does not fit together with the original Old and New Testaments.

    This constant need to explain WHY there are vast differences between the Old and New Testaments and the Qur'an, are a regular feature of many Muslim postings.

   I think you would get a negative response from many Muslims if you told them that they were all "spiritual" Israelites.

   And lastly, it is shocking that the Hebrew Bible never specifically mentions the ACTUAL name of Muhammad, the final "seal" of the Jewish Biblical prophets. He is the ONLY prophet who is not specifically named, a complete and total departure from Biblical tradition. But I suppose the Jews "corrupted" the name of Muhammad out of their own Bible, a "prophet" sent to them by God Himself.

Larry

Edited by Larry - 23 February 2013 at 1:22pm]]> Sat, 23 Feb 2013 13:08:08 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=174481#174481 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Originally posted by FriendshipAssalamu... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=174468#174468 Author: Webber
Subject: 23672
Posted: 22 February 2013 at 8:22pm

Originally posted by Friendship

Assalamu alaikum Larry etc.

If the members of this forum are really intelligent and are looking for a solution in what they do do not understand and see done wrongly, it is better they listen to those who know and then make up their minds. Those criticizing Islam in particular what Muhammad taught and practiced are the least qualified to do so for they do not have a single root or its bud to do so. Let them go back to school and learn Arabic language in all  its branches that will make them understand what Muhammad did. If they cannot do that, there are books in English language to help them and lead them to understanding the life of Muhammad. One will then know that Muhammad never claimed to bring a code of conduct that is knew to the world or unknown to those living with him. These were the Levi tribes and their clans of the children of Israel in Madina between the time they arrived to 629 AD and those who called themselves Christians living in Yaman. Muhammad emphasized that if one is looking for a solution and fails to find it from his code of conduct, let him refer to the Talmud for that solution. In all fairness and serenity, what is the justification in accusing Muhammad?
Just today, John Kerry emphasized USA foreign policy on education and looking inwards. Larry and Co, remember that Muhammad was first commanded to read. No Messenger if you believed in that ever received that command. That form of education is for the world and not the then Quraysh nor the Levis. In the same manner scientists are going to work on an early warning system to detect asteroid, let us do the same in looking for  SYSTEM to live together and in peace. Certainly, Muhammad achieved that to the disdain and rejection of you Larry and the rest. It will take about 2 years before the scientists develop the prototype but it will just take 2 days to find that solution for the world from the book in website spbra.com//allamadrsanisalihmustapha. It should be read by the Westerners are looking for a stable and peaceful world. 
Lastly, note that the appointment of the females Consultative Council by the Saudi Monarchy regarded and accepted as a model of the teaching of Muhammad by the most powerful Western civilization is against the practice of Muhammad. Had John Kerry learned Arabic and enjoyed the freedom of speech in asking seeking and knocking (Matth 7:7), he would have known that. Had Senator John Kerry believed in the Talmud he is bound to question that and by reflecting on the selection made by Moses in choosing those to spy the holy land would claim the superiority of the Talmud in justice and equity over the practice of Muhammad. He would them advice the Saudis to follow their way or else face sanction.  Western press would then support him in ridiculing Muhammad. But what are you going to do?
There is no sense and wisdom in what you and your cohorts are doing. Equally there is no sense and wisdom in becoming ignorant to the teaching of Muhammad. Unless we agree to follow the advice of Muhammad- get educated to choose and refuse and be free from the clutches of slavery, you will ever remain as a slave.

Friendship.

 
 
Thank you for your "Christians must bend" post. Christians I've seen on this site so far are not led by the western press. They've done their homework. You should acknowledge the bend it is for a Christian to come learn from a Muslim site. Your post is for street Christians.
 
Threads, posts and responses go in cycles. for a while everyone looks for similarities, then it turns to differences, some times people get irked, some tell their true feelings, someone doesn't like it, then someone pops in with a cure-all post.
 
Ya gotta look at the st**idity in the title for starters, then check out the dietary laws thread where Christians are expected to be Israelites...
 
I'd bet Mahdi the seeker sits back and LOL's at what he's started.
 
 
 
 
]]> Fri, 22 Feb 2013 20:22:22 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=174468#174468 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Muhammad teaches that if a name... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=174452#174452 Author: Friendship
Subject: 23672
Posted: 22 February 2013 at 1:02am

Muhammad teaches that if a name is mentioned in the Qur'an that is to serve as practical guide, a lead.The Israelites are mentioned because they were the civilization (human beings) chosen by the Creator of the heavens and the earth to teach to human beings His Laws and what is required from them. Human beings must be trained. Their behavior serves as a lesson to the next generation on how to behave and obey the Lord. Other names not in the Talmud are the Ad, the People of Shu'aib, Salih, Zulqarnain. There prophets were not from the children of Jacob and thus not mentioned in the Talmud. Luqman the wise was not also mentioned.
Generally, Muhammad was not understood because he is not from the family of Jacob.  I am not an Israelite by birth, but my conduct behavior and the future after my death is governed by the Talmudic story. The 613 positive and negative commands are my Laws also. Spiritually, we are all Israelites.

Friendship
]]> Fri, 22 Feb 2013 01:02:33 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=174452#174452 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Just jumped into the thread,... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=174439#174439 Author: Webber
Subject: 23672
Posted: 21 February 2013 at 8:59pm

Just jumped into the thread, wonder if it's worth reading 33 pages.
 
In case it was an issue, I'm not an Israelite.
]]> Thu, 21 Feb 2013 20:59:16 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=174439#174439 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Nothing fraudulent there. and... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=174434#174434 Author: Caringheart
Subject: 23672
Posted: 21 February 2013 at 6:44pm

Nothing fraudulent there. Smile

and I'm still curious, what is your argument...
What is your beef?
Is it not a good thing that Jesus' message reaches all the world?
Question


Edited by Caringheart - 21 February 2013 at 6:46pm]]> Thu, 21 Feb 2013 18:44:26 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=174434#174434 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Originally posted by Caringheart Originally... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=174421#174421 Author: Mahdi The Seeke
Subject: 23672
Posted: 21 February 2013 at 1:30am

Originally posted by Caringheart




Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

Originally posted by Caringheart

11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.

14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

16 And
other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring,
and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one
shepherd.

17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.

18 No
man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay
it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I
received of my Father.

(the words of Jesus)

19 There was a division therefore again among the Jews for these sayings.


“Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel. As you go, preach this message: 'The kingdom of heaven is near.’ Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, drive out the demons. Freely you have received, freely give. Do not take along any gold or silver or copper in your belts; take no bag for the journey, or extra tunic, or sandals or a staff; for the worker is worth his keep." (Matthew 10:5)
Greetings Mahdi,

<span id="en-KJV-24888" ="text="" mark-16-14"=""><sup ="versenum"="">14 Afterward He appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them
with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not
them which had seen him after he was risen.</span>

<span id="en-KJV-24889" ="text="" mark-16-15"=""><sup ="versenum"="">15 And He said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.</span>

<span id="en-KJV-24890" ="text="" mark-16-16"=""><sup ="versenum"="">16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.</span>

<span id="en-KJV-24890" ="text="" mark-16-16"=""></span>

You just don't want to see,While He was with them He taught to the Jews.After His ascension the Word was to go out to all the world.and I'm still curious, what is your argument...What is your beef? Is it not a good thing that Jesus' message reaches all the world?Salaam,CH
now you are quoting fraudulent bible verses.]]> Thu, 21 Feb 2013 01:30:13 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=174421#174421 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Assalamu alaikum Larry etc.If... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=174420#174420 Author: Friendship
Subject: 23672
Posted: 21 February 2013 at 12:04am

Assalamu alaikum Larry etc.

If the members of this forum are really intelligent and are looking for a solution in what they do do not understand and see done wrongly, it is better they listen to those who know and then make up their minds. Those criticizing Islam in particular what Muhammad taught and practiced are the least qualified to do so for they do not have a single root or its bud to do so. Let them go back to school and learn Arabic language in all  its branches that will make them understand what Muhammad did. If they cannot do that, there are books in English language to help them and lead them to understanding the life of Muhammad. One will then know that Muhammad never claimed to bring a code of conduct that is knew to the world or unknown to those living with him. These were the Levi tribes and their clans of the children of Israel in Madina between the time they arrived to 629 AD and those who called themselves Christians living in Yaman. Muhammad emphasized that if one is looking for a solution and fails to find it from his code of conduct, let him refer to the Talmud for that solution. In all fairness and serenity, what is the justification in accusing Muhammad?
Just today, John Kerry emphasized USA foreign policy on education and looking inwards. Larry and Co, remember that Muhammad was first commanded to read. No Messenger if you believed in that ever received that command. That form of education is for the world and not the then Quraysh nor the Levis. In the same manner scientists are going to work on an early warning system to detect asteroid, let us do the same in looking for  SYSTEM to live together and in peace. Certainly, Muhammad achieved that to the disdain and rejection of you Larry and the rest. It will take about 2 years before the scientists develop the prototype but it will just take 2 days to find that solution for the world from the book in website spbra.com//allamadrsanisalihmustapha. It should be read by the Westerners are looking for a stable and peaceful world. 
Lastly, note that the appointment of the females Consultative Council by the Saudi Monarchy regarded and accepted as a model of the teaching of Muhammad by the most powerful Western civilization is against the practice of Muhammad. Had John Kerry learned Arabic and enjoyed the freedom of speech in asking seeking and knocking (Matth 7:7), he would have known that. Had Senator John Kerry believed in the Talmud he is bound to question that and by reflecting on the selection made by Moses in choosing those to spy the holy land would claim the superiority of the Talmud in justice and equity over the practice of Muhammad. He would them advice the Saudis to follow their way or else face sanction.  Western press would then support him in ridiculing Muhammad. But what are you going to do?
There is no sense and wisdom in what you and your cohorts are doing. Equally there is no sense and wisdom in becoming ignorant to the teaching of Muhammad. Unless we agree to follow the advice of Muhammad- get educated to choose and refuse and be free from the clutches of slavery, you will ever remain as a slave.

Friendship.

 
]]> Thu, 21 Feb 2013 00:04:31 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=174420#174420 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Originally posted by Mahdi... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=174417#174417 Author: Caringheart
Subject: 23672
Posted: 20 February 2013 at 10:54pm

Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

Originally posted by Caringheart

11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.

14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

16 Andother sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring,
and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one
shepherd.


17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.

18 Noman taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to layit down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

(the words of Jesus)

19 There was a division therefore again among the Jews for these sayings.

“Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel. As you go, preach this message: 'The kingdom of heaven is near.’ Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, drive out the demons. Freely you have received, freely give. Do not take along any gold or silver or copper in your belts; take no bag for the journey, or extra tunic, or sandals or a staff; for the worker is worth his keep." (Matthew 10:5)


Greetings Mahdi,

14 Afterward He appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.

15 And He said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.


You just don't want to see,
While He was with them He taught to the Jews.
After His ascension the Word was to go out to all the world.

and I'm still curious, what is your argument...
What is your beef?
Is it not a good thing that Jesus' message reaches all the world?

Salaam,
CH

Edited by Caringheart - 20 February 2013 at 10:59pm]]> Wed, 20 Feb 2013 22:54:56 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=174417#174417 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : The God of Abraham, Isaac and... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=174414#174414 Author: Larry
Subject: 23672
Posted: 20 February 2013 at 7:33pm

The God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob never turned human beings into animals because they broke faith with Him or turned away from Him. How could God change His own creation, made in His own image, by turning them into dumb beasts? It is an absurd thought and belief. It is like Judaiasm and Christianity who do not threaten people with death if they abandon their Judaism or Christianity, as Muslims believe, that is between them and God. It is not for mankind to murder people who they feel do not sufficiently honor and worship "Allah," even if that is what "Allah" supposedly commands in the Qur'an. The discrepancies and conflicting statements in the Qur'an, of which there are many, as well as mistakes regarding specific people first writtn of in the Old Testament, convince me that "Allah" of ther Qur'an is in no way connected to the God of the Jews and Christians. If the 66 authors of the Bible, living at diffent times and in many different places, can create a work such as the Bible that is remarkably consistent in it's contents, while the Qur'an, supposedly "revealed" to only one "prophet," has numerous contradictions, discrepancies and flat-out mistakes, then I think the answer for which "book," Bible or Qur'an, is the Truth is rather easy to conclude. The Qur'an is based on a 7th century pagan Arab mindset and culture, and is not easily reconciled to modern thinking or modern freedoms. Islam is categorically in opposition to the ideas of freedom of thought, religion (even with the statement that "there is no compulsion in religion"), democracy, and modern legal principles that are based upon precedent and settled case law, not by what is written in a religious book such as the Qur'an (Shariah, for example) that is an arbitrary legal system that can be applied in vastly different ways by vastly different religious "judges." The very idea that anyone would be instructed, by their religious text and belief, to cut off the hands or feet of a human being for a crime such as theft, for example, is morally repugnant and entirely rejected by the Western world. Mediaeval concepts of religion and justice belong to the past, not the modern world. This is one of the reasons why Islam has made such little progress over the last 1,400 years in the Western world. ]]> Wed, 20 Feb 2013 19:33:25 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=174414#174414 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Originally posted by Caringheart&lt;span... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=174410#174410 Author: Mahdi The Seeke
Subject: 23672
Posted: 20 February 2013 at 5:50pm

Originally posted by Caringheart

<span id="en-KJV-26493" ="text John-10-11"><sup ="versenum">11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.</span>

<span id="en-KJV-26495" ="text John-10-13"><sup ="versenum">13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.</span>

<span id="en-KJV-26496" ="text John-10-14"><sup ="versenum">14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.</span>

<span id="en-KJV-26497" ="text John-10-15"><sup ="versenum">15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.</span>

<span id="en-KJV-26498" ="text John-10-16"><sup ="versenum">16 And
other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring,
and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one
shepherd.</span>

<span id="en-KJV-26499" ="text John-10-17"><sup ="versenum">17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.</span>

<span id="en-KJV-26500" ="text John-10-18"><sup ="versenum">18 No
man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay
it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I
received of my Father.</span>

<span id="en-KJV-26500" ="text John-10-18">(the words of Jesus)</span>

<span id="en-KJV-26501" ="text John-10-19"><sup ="versenum">19 There was a division therefore again among the Jews for these sayings.</span>



“Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel. As you go, preach this message: 'The kingdom of heaven is near.’ Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy, drive out the demons. Freely you have received, freely give. Do not take along any gold or silver or copper in your belts; take no bag for the journey, or extra tunic, or sandals or a staff; for the worker is worth his keep." (Matthew 10:5)
]]> Wed, 20 Feb 2013 17:50:02 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=174410#174410 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : 11I am the good shepherd: the... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=174400#174400 Author: Caringheart
Subject: 23672
Posted: 20 February 2013 at 12:19pm

11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep.

13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.

14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine.

15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep.

16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again.

18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

(the words of Jesus)

19 There was a division therefore again among the Jews for these sayings.

]]> Wed, 20 Feb 2013 12:19:56 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=174400#174400 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Originally posted by Experiential&lt;P... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=171521#171521 Author: honeto
Subject: 23672
Posted: 15 December 2012 at 7:20pm

Originally posted by Experiential

<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">It still amounts to much the same thing to me Hoeto. God referring to people as animals.



Then I refer you to a language doctor, because this seems like a language hick up disorder!
Hasan]]> Sat, 15 Dec 2012 19:20:08 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=171521#171521 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Originally posted by Experiential Originally... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=171496#171496 Author: iec786
Subject: 23672
Posted: 15 December 2012 at 1:03pm

Originally posted by Experiential

Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

Originally posted by Experiential

Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

I challenge you to provide an ethical teaching from the Quran higher than this … “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[a] and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.. “O ye who believe! stand out firmly for Allah, as witnesses to fair dealing, and let not the hatred of others to you make you swerve to wrong and depart from justice. Be just: that is next to piety: and fear Allah. For Allah is well- acquainted with all that ye do.” (Surah Al Ma’idah 5:8) “As to the Righteous, they shall drink of a Cup (of Wine) mixed with Kafur,- A Fountain where the Devotees of Allah do drink, making it flow in unstinted abundance. They perform (their) vows, and they fear a Day whose evil flies far and wide. And they feed, for the love of Allah, the indigent, the orphan, and the captive,- (Saying),”We feed you for the sake of Allah alone: no reward do we desire from you, nor thanks.” (Surah Al Insan 76:5-9) Qur'an: Surah 90   Al-Balad (The City) Nay, I swear by this city... We verily have created man in an atmosphere... But he hath not attempted the Ascent, Ah, what will convey unto thee what the Ascent is! It is to free a slave, And to feed in the day of hunger, An orphan near of kin, Or some poor wretch in misery. And to be of those who believe and exhort one another to perseverance and exhort one another to pity. Qur'an 2:177   Surah Al- Baqarah (The Cow) It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces to the East and the West; but righteous is he who believeth in Allah and the Last Day and the angels and the Scripture and the Prophets; and giveth his wealth, for love of Him, to kinsfolk and to orphans and the needy and the wayfarer and to those who ask, and to set slaves free; and observeth proper worship and payeth the poor due. And those who keep their treaty when they make one, and the patient in tribulation and adversity and time of stress. Such are they who are sincere. Such are the God fearing. Quran 002.280 If the debtor is in a difficulty, grant him time Till it is easy for him to repay. But if ye remit it by way of charity, that is best for you if ye only knew. Quran 005.045 We ordained therein for them: "Life for life, eye for eye, nose or nose, ear for ear, tooth for tooth, and wounds equal for equal." But if any one remits the retaliation by way of charity, it is an act of atonement for himself. And if any fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (No better than) wrong-doers Quran 003.092 By no means shall ye attain righteousness unless ye give (freely) of that which ye love; and whatever ye give, of a truth Allah knoweth it well. "As for the orphan, do not oppress him; and as for the beggar, turn him not away." (Qur'an 93:9) Quran "Repel evil with what is best, when lo! he between whom and you there is enmity will be like a warm friend." (41:34) Quran
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">Yes I recognize the ethical basis to these. They are about charity, justice and mercy and of course I respect that. All religions have an ethical basis to them, Hinduism, Buddhism, etc.

<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </o:p>

<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">What particularly draws me to Isa is his call to lay down ones life not merely submission or attempting to achieve good standard in areas of justice, charity and mercy. He required these things but more. He requires and displays complete self sacrifice. He even forgave his persecutors and executioners while dying on the cross. And this is the central message of Christianity, God laid his life down for humanity which is the pattern for Christians to follow. To lay their own lives down.

<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">Yes Mohammad had some high ethical sayings and deeds, but at the end of the day he was a man of the sword while Jesus was of peace.

suicide bombers must be your heroes too then.

No. Thats a Muslim thing.
Anyway Im still waiting for your explanation as to why the Quaran refers to non Muslims as swine, donkeys,dogs, beasts and apes ?




Could you provide references to your claim??? ]]> Sat, 15 Dec 2012 13:03:02 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=171496#171496 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : It still amounts to much the same... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=171423#171423 Author: Experiential
Subject: 23672
Posted: 13 December 2012 at 4:04pm

It still amounts to much the same thing to me Hoeto. God referring to people as animals.

]]> Thu, 13 Dec 2012 16:04:41 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=171423#171423 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Originally posted by Experiential Originally... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=170931#170931 Author: honeto
Subject: 23672
Posted: 30 November 2012 at 5:47pm

Originally posted by Experiential

Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

Originally posted by Experiential

Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

I challenge you to provide an ethical teaching from the Quran higher than this … “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[a] and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.. “O ye who believe! stand out firmly for Allah, as witnesses to fair dealing, and let not the hatred of others to you make you swerve to wrong and depart from justice. Be just: that is next to piety: and fear Allah. For Allah is well- acquainted with all that ye do.” (Surah Al Ma’idah 5:8) “As to the Righteous, they shall drink of a Cup (of Wine) mixed with Kafur,- A Fountain where the Devotees of Allah do drink, making it flow in unstinted abundance. They perform (their) vows, and they fear a Day whose evil flies far and wide. And they feed, for the love of Allah, the indigent, the orphan, and the captive,- (Saying),”We feed you for the sake of Allah alone: no reward do we desire from you, nor thanks.” (Surah Al Insan 76:5-9) Qur'an: Surah 90   Al-Balad (The City) Nay, I swear by this city... We verily have created man in an atmosphere... But he hath not attempted the Ascent, Ah, what will convey unto thee what the Ascent is! It is to free a slave, And to feed in the day of hunger, An orphan near of kin, Or some poor wretch in misery. And to be of those who believe and exhort one another to perseverance and exhort one another to pity. Qur'an 2:177   Surah Al- Baqarah (The Cow) It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces to the East and the West; but righteous is he who believeth in Allah and the Last Day and the angels and the Scripture and the Prophets; and giveth his wealth, for love of Him, to kinsfolk and to orphans and the needy and the wayfarer and to those who ask, and to set slaves free; and observeth proper worship and payeth the poor due. And those who keep their treaty when they make one, and the patient in tribulation and adversity and time of stress. Such are they who are sincere. Such are the God fearing. Quran 002.280 If the debtor is in a difficulty, grant him time Till it is easy for him to repay. But if ye remit it by way of charity, that is best for you if ye only knew. Quran 005.045 We ordained therein for them: "Life for life, eye for eye, nose or nose, ear for ear, tooth for tooth, and wounds equal for equal." But if any one remits the retaliation by way of charity, it is an act of atonement for himself. And if any fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (No better than) wrong-doers Quran 003.092 By no means shall ye attain righteousness unless ye give (freely) of that which ye love; and whatever ye give, of a truth Allah knoweth it well. "As for the orphan, do not oppress him; and as for the beggar, turn him not away." (Qur'an 93:9) Quran "Repel evil with what is best, when lo! he between whom and you there is enmity will be like a warm friend." (41:34) Quran
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">Yes I recognize the ethical basis to these. They are about charity, justice and mercy and of course I respect that. All religions have an ethical basis to them, Hinduism, Buddhism, etc.

<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </o:p>

<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">What particularly draws me to Isa is his call to lay down ones life not merely submission or attempting to achieve good standard in areas of justice, charity and mercy. He required these things but more. He requires and displays complete self sacrifice. He even forgave his persecutors and executioners while dying on the cross. And this is the central message of Christianity, God laid his life down for humanity which is the pattern for Christians to follow. To lay their own lives down.

<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">Yes Mohammad had some high ethical sayings and deeds, but at the end of the day he was a man of the sword while Jesus was of peace.

suicide bombers must be your heroes too then.

No. Thats a Muslim thing.
Anyway Im still waiting for your explanation as to why the Quaran refers to non Muslims as swine, donkeys,dogs, beasts and apes ?

Experiential,
I bet if you have paid attention to the verses you are talking about, you did not need to ask this question.

The verses are as follows:
5:60 (Y. Ali) Say: "Shall I point out to you something much worse than this, (as judged) by the treatment it received from Allah. those who incurred the curse of Allah and His wrath, those of whom some He transformed into apes and swine, those who worshipped evil;- these are (many times) worse in rank, and far more astray from the even path!"
And:
7:166 (Y. Ali) When in their insolence they transgressed (all) prohibitions, We said to them: "Be ye apes, despised and rejected."

If you notice, it is not addressed to non-Muslims as you tried to claim it did. It directly deals with those who received guidance from God but rejected it transgressed and worshiped evil. So as a punishment God turned them as such. And God will punish them and those like them in the hell fire.
Hasan


Edited by honeto - 30 November 2012 at 5:48pm]]> Fri, 30 Nov 2012 17:47:27 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=170931#170931 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Originally posted by Mahdi The... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=170736#170736 Author: Experiential
Subject: 23672
Posted: 27 November 2012 at 1:55am

Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

Originally posted by Experiential

Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

I challenge you to provide an ethical teaching from the Quran higher than this … “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[a] and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.. “O ye who believe! stand out firmly for Allah, as witnesses to fair dealing, and let not the hatred of others to you make you swerve to wrong and depart from justice. Be just: that is next to piety: and fear Allah. For Allah is well- acquainted with all that ye do.” (Surah Al Ma’idah 5:8) “As to the Righteous, they shall drink of a Cup (of Wine) mixed with Kafur,- A Fountain where the Devotees of Allah do drink, making it flow in unstinted abundance. They perform (their) vows, and they fear a Day whose evil flies far and wide. And they feed, for the love of Allah, the indigent, the orphan, and the captive,- (Saying),”We feed you for the sake of Allah alone: no reward do we desire from you, nor thanks.” (Surah Al Insan 76:5-9) Qur'an: Surah 90   Al-Balad (The City) Nay, I swear by this city... We verily have created man in an atmosphere... But he hath not attempted the Ascent, Ah, what will convey unto thee what the Ascent is! It is to free a slave, And to feed in the day of hunger, An orphan near of kin, Or some poor wretch in misery. And to be of those who believe and exhort one another to perseverance and exhort one another to pity. Qur'an 2:177   Surah Al- Baqarah (The Cow) It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces to the East and the West; but righteous is he who believeth in Allah and the Last Day and the angels and the Scripture and the Prophets; and giveth his wealth, for love of Him, to kinsfolk and to orphans and the needy and the wayfarer and to those who ask, and to set slaves free; and observeth proper worship and payeth the poor due. And those who keep their treaty when they make one, and the patient in tribulation and adversity and time of stress. Such are they who are sincere. Such are the God fearing. Quran 002.280 If the debtor is in a difficulty, grant him time Till it is easy for him to repay. But if ye remit it by way of charity, that is best for you if ye only knew. Quran 005.045 We ordained therein for them: "Life for life, eye for eye, nose or nose, ear for ear, tooth for tooth, and wounds equal for equal." But if any one remits the retaliation by way of charity, it is an act of atonement for himself. And if any fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (No better than) wrong-doers Quran 003.092 By no means shall ye attain righteousness unless ye give (freely) of that which ye love; and whatever ye give, of a truth Allah knoweth it well. "As for the orphan, do not oppress him; and as for the beggar, turn him not away." (Qur'an 93:9) Quran "Repel evil with what is best, when lo! he between whom and you there is enmity will be like a warm friend." (41:34) Quran

<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">Yes I recognize the ethical basis to these. They are about charity, justice and mercy and of course I respect that. All religions have an ethical basis to them, Hinduism, Buddhism, etc.


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </o:p>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">What particularly draws me to Isa is his call to lay down ones life not merely submission or attempting to achieve good standard in areas of justice, charity and mercy. He required these things but more. He requires and displays complete self sacrifice. He even forgave his persecutors and executioners while dying on the cross. And this is the central message of Christianity, God laid his life down for humanity which is the pattern for Christians to follow. To lay their own lives down.


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">Yes Mohammad had some high ethical sayings and deeds, but at the end of the day he was a man of the sword while Jesus was of peace.



suicide bombers must be your heroes too then.
No. Thats a Muslim thing.
Anyway Im still waiting for your explanation as to why the Quaran refers to non Muslims as swine, donkeys,dogs, beasts and apes ?


Edited by Experiential - 29 November 2012 at 1:25pm]]> Tue, 27 Nov 2012 01:55:57 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=170736#170736 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Originally posted by Experiential Originally... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=170709#170709 Author: Mahdi The Seeke
Subject: 23672
Posted: 26 November 2012 at 12:22pm

Originally posted by Experiential

Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

I challenge you to provide an ethical teaching from the Quran higher than this … “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[a] and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you.. “O ye who believe! stand out firmly for Allah, as witnesses to fair dealing, and let not the hatred of others to you make you swerve to wrong and depart from justice. Be just: that is next to piety: and fear Allah. For Allah is well- acquainted with all that ye do.” (Surah Al Ma’idah 5:8) “As to the Righteous, they shall drink of a Cup (of Wine) mixed with Kafur,- A Fountain where the Devotees of Allah do drink, making it flow in unstinted abundance. They perform (their) vows, and they fear a Day whose evil flies far and wide. And they feed, for the love of Allah, the indigent, the orphan, and the captive,- (Saying),”We feed you for the sake of Allah alone: no reward do we desire from you, nor thanks.” (Surah Al Insan 76:5-9) Qur'an: Surah 90   Al-Balad (The City) Nay, I swear by this city... We verily have created man in an atmosphere... But he hath not attempted the Ascent, Ah, what will convey unto thee what the Ascent is! It is to free a slave, And to feed in the day of hunger, An orphan near of kin, Or some poor wretch in misery. And to be of those who believe and exhort one another to perseverance and exhort one another to pity. Qur'an 2:177   Surah Al- Baqarah (The Cow) It is not righteousness that ye turn your faces to the East and the West; but righteous is he who believeth in Allah and the Last Day and the angels and the Scripture and the Prophets; and giveth his wealth, for love of Him, to kinsfolk and to orphans and the needy and the wayfarer and to those who ask, and to set slaves free; and observeth proper worship and payeth the poor due. And those who keep their treaty when they make one, and the patient in tribulation and adversity and time of stress. Such are they who are sincere. Such are the God fearing. Quran 002.280 If the debtor is in a difficulty, grant him time Till it is easy for him to repay. But if ye remit it by way of charity, that is best for you if ye only knew. Quran 005.045 We ordained therein for them: "Life for life, eye for eye, nose or nose, ear for ear, tooth for tooth, and wounds equal for equal." But if any one remits the retaliation by way of charity, it is an act of atonement for himself. And if any fail to judge by (the light of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (No better than) wrong-doers Quran 003.092 By no means shall ye attain righteousness unless ye give (freely) of that which ye love; and whatever ye give, of a truth Allah knoweth it well. "As for the orphan, do not oppress him; and as for the beggar, turn him not away." (Qur'an 93:9) Quran "Repel evil with what is best, when lo! he between whom and you there is enmity will be like a warm friend." (41:34) Quran

<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">Yes I recognize the ethical basis to these. They are about charity, justice and mercy and of course I respect that. All religions have an ethical basis to them, Hinduism, Buddhism, etc.


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </o:p>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">What particularly draws me to Isa is his call to lay down ones life not merely submission or attempting to achieve good standard in areas of justice, charity and mercy. He required these things but more. He requires and displays complete self sacrifice. He even forgave his persecutors and executioners while dying on the cross. And this is the central message of Christianity, God laid his life down for humanity which is the pattern for Christians to follow. To lay their own lives down.


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">Yes Mohammad had some high ethical sayings and deeds, but at the end of the day he was a man of the sword while Jesus was of peace.



suicide bombers must be your heroes too then.]]> Mon, 26 Nov 2012 12:22:27 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=170709#170709 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : i said:I have read the whole chapter.... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=170708#170708 Author: Mahdi The Seeke
Subject: 23672
Posted: 26 November 2012 at 12:21pm

i said:I have read the whole chapter. And it is a massive false prophecy since "I tell you the truth, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes." did not happen.

salim said
Wrong. The Gospel will be constantly preached to the Jews in the Holy Land until the Second Coming. That's all that means.

my response
of course it means something else than what it actually says. how st**id i must be.

salim said
Except that the people were NOT innocent. The Amalekites were notorious for their ruthless treatment of people around them, their entire culture was based round terrorism and the other nations had the same problem with them. The Canaanites were not innocents either; and in fact their kings were quisling agents for the Egyptian Empire which ran Canaan. Most Canaanites were in fact exiles and slaves in Egypt who left there with the Israelites during the Exodus; the Israelites then were spearheading a war of liberation, which they didn't carry through properly anyway- Joshua's campaigns were disabling operations never carried through to their logical conclusion and in the end Israel lost the ideological war that followed.

i say:i guess you are one of those who would rip pregnant women open and kill sucklings.]]> Mon, 26 Nov 2012 12:21:05 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=170708#170708 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Originally posted by Experiential Originally... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=170707#170707 Author: Mahdi The Seeke
Subject: 23672
Posted: 26 November 2012 at 12:13pm

Originally posted by Experiential

Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

Experiential, thanks for not answering my questions and acting like a parrot. The God i believe in could not order mass murder of innocent people. So, the Bible must be wrong. And for people to commit massacres and credit it to God is despicable, claiming God gave them the land and ordered the killings. That is preposterous. And since Jesus is depicted displaying the same racist behaviour in the New Testament, and since Jesus is part of the Trinity makes him equally responsible for old Testament massacres, this is mind boggling. If the Bible and christianity is true, Jesus was racist.

<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">Thanks for not acknowledging or attempting to refute my points. As your response is to simply repeat your allegations without responding to my points I will simply repeat my points until you attempt to refute. Here they are for you again to respond to.


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </o:p>


<OL style="MARGIN-TOP: 0in" =1>
<LI style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in" =Msonormal><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">As you believe in the same God as Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses and Jesus, your argument as a Muslim does not makes sense as the God you are ‘judging’ is your God.
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><o:p><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </o:p>


<OL style="MARGIN-TOP: 0in" =1 start=2>
<LI style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in" =Msonormal><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">What happened to the non Jews, God also brought about on the Jewish people through the Assyrians, Babylonians and Romans. So there was no favoritism there.
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><o:p><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </o:p>


<OL style="MARGIN-TOP: 0in" =1 start=3>
<LI style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1; tab-stops: list .5in" =Msonormal><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">In terms of the Canaanites the Bible is clear in that God was exceedingly patient with them.
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><o:p><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </o:p><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">Im not sure how as a Muslim you would insult Gods prophet and The Messiah Isa (pbuh)? Surely you will be weighed in balance on the scales?


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">Remember Jesus was a man of peace while Mohammad was a war monger with blood on his hands. No comparison there!


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt"><o:p><FONT face="Times New Roman"> </o:p></SPAN>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><SPAN style="FONT-SIZE: 14pt"><o:p><FONT face="Times New Roman"> </o:p></SPAN>



parroting again.]]> Mon, 26 Nov 2012 12:13:36 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=170707#170707 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : I have read the whole chapter.... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=170617#170617 Author: Salaam_Erin
Subject: 23672
Posted: 24 November 2012 at 1:42pm

I have read the whole chapter. And it is a massive false prophecy since "I tell you the truth, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes." did not happen.

Wrong. The Gospel will be constantly preached to the Jews in the Holy Land until the Second Coming. That's all that means.

I have no problem with dogs, and i agree that the Creator should not consider the creation unclean. The problem i have is Jesus insulting a woman, especially when she comes begging for help in a time of need simply for being non israelite. The Bible was not written by americans so their attitude towards dogs is irrelevant. On the other hand, dogs are one of the most,if not the most despised animals in the Bible. Example

The Syro-Phoenician woman was a Greek speaker and Jesus, speaking back to her in Greek, punned in typical Rabbinic fashion using the diminutive form as Experiential showed you. Jesus is quoting a tongue in cheek proverb on this issue and the woman has so much faith she even interrupts Jesus and finishes the quotation! This whole incident was a lesson in which Jesus taught His disciples a lesson.

It doesn't matter Mahdi if Luke himself wasn't an eyewitness as he got his information from those who were. Besides, in the chain of transmission from Jesus he is only link number 2. Yet you can accept Hadith from 300 years after Muhammad 100 commentators down the line.

Besides, Matthew records the incident as well. ;o)

Experiential, thanks for not answering my questions and acting like a parrot. The God i believe in could not order mass murder of innocent people. So, the Bible must be wrong. And for people to commit massacres and credit it to God is despicable, claiming God gave them the land and ordered the killings. That is preposterous. And since Jesus is depicted displaying the same racist behaviour in the New Testament, and since Jesus is part of the Trinity makes him equally responsible for old Testament massacres, this is mind boggling. If the Bible and christianity is true, Jesus was racist.

Except that the people were NOT innocent. The Amalekites were notorious for their ruthless treatment of people around them, their entire culture was based round terrorism and the other nations had the same problem with them. The Canaanites were not innocents either; and in fact their kings were quisling agents for the Egyptian Empire which ran Canaan. Most Canaanites were in fact exiles and slaves in Egypt who left there with the Israelites during the Exodus; the Israelites then were spearheading a war of liberation, which they didn't carry through properly anyway- Joshua's campaigns were disabling operations never carried through to their logical conclusion and in the end Israel lost the ideological war that followed.

As for Jesus and the Syro-Phoenician woman, you miss on the banter between Jesus and the woman and how it was a lesson for the racist disciples, and ignore that Jesus actually healed the little girl.

PS I wish to correct a common mistake. The Emperor Constantine LEGALISED Christianity. It was the Emperor THEODOSIUS I who made Christianity the State Religion in AD 390 and banned all pagan religions. (Constantine died in 337.)]]> Sat, 24 Nov 2012 13:42:58 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=170617#170617 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Originally posted by Caringheart Originally... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=170596#170596 Author: Larry
Subject: 23672
Posted: 24 November 2012 at 2:59am

Originally posted by Caringheart



Originally posted by Larry

[QUOTE=Caringheart]

If you study the old testament, many of the laws of Rome are descendants of what was taught(by God) in the Jewish scriptures and in their society.  So I think Roman thinking was influenced by the Jewish population.       Christian teaching which flows from the Judeo teaching. the principles of Judeo-Christian teaching(because they are the true guidance of God), incorporated with the forward thinking of earlier societies, such as the philosophy of the Greeks, that has resulted in the stability of other countries.This is why I still say, " I believe the strength of the west lies precisely in the fact that it is built on a solid Christian foundation, which includes separation of church and state and free will to choose..."  "It is precisely Christianity that teaches equality for all."


Caringheart,

   I agree with some of your points but disagree on others. Your statement that "the basis of our law, constitution and democracy comes from Christian teaching," is not completely correct. The actual word, "demokratia" is Greek for "popular government." Roman law descended from the Greeks almost exclusively. In fact, the Romans persecuted the Christians for centuries before declaring Christianity the "state religion" by Emperor Constantine in the fourth century A.D. Most of the fundamentals of Roman law were settled long before Christianity even existed. I am not saying that Christianity had no impact on Roman law, but it was much less than you desribe and did not come into effect for the most part until Constantine.
   I don't really understand what you mean whewn you say, "Just look at was is happening to western nations as they slip away from those Christian foundations." Could you give me some examples of what you mean by that statement?
   Christianity does not need the help of any human government to give it it's legitimacy, in fact, when religion is mixed with politics, it is religion that loses the most in terms of it's moral authority. I am a Christian and always have been, but I do not want other "Christians" telling me how to live my religion or impose their particular beliefs onto me. I support the complete separation of church and state, period.
   Just look what happened in the early history of the United States when early colonies used Christianity and the Bible as the basis of their laws and social "norms." People were branded as "heretics" and "witches", based on the colonial's interpretation of what the Bible had to say and committed the most heinous executions of these and other people branded as not being "good Christians."
   The Bible has been used (incorrectly) as the source for many of the world's most cruel and inhuman persecutions, such as the Spanish Inquisition, for one example. I think that Jesus knew very well what he was saying when he made the comment, "Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's and to God the things that are God's."
   But these cruel and inhuman examples do not come from Christianity alone, all religions have been misused at different times to persecute and discriminate against others who are not seen as properly "religious" by the religious authorities at the time.
   The ancient "philosophy of the Greeks" was not based on Christianity, it was actually based on humanism, a belief in the strength of human achievement and human political theories. The Greek emphasis on Christianity did not come until after the firsty century A.D. when Christianity was introduced to the Greek people.
   As I said before, I am a Christian and believe strongly in the teachings of Jesus Christ, but there are many Christians who have a very different interpretations of what Christianity means and how it should be practiced by "true Christians."
   Anyway, just some thoughts of mine. I hope you have a great Thanksgiving too!

Larry
Hi Larry,I think you misunderstood alot of what I wrote but I don't have the time to go into it right now other than to say briefly...that I didn't/don't say that Romans took away from Christianity but that it is the old testament scriptures given to the Jews which came first and influenced both Roman society and Christianity.  It is Christianity that takes from the old.If I had time and energy I could provide the supporting proofs... I did a study on it one time, but I do not know where those notes are now.  Read the old testament.If I had time I could also provide the proofs of how Christian teachings guided the forefathers in shaping the United States of America.  Get a Geneva Bible Patriot's edition and read it.I agree many wrong things have occurred in the name of religion but this is due to misguided leaders.The foundations are still without flaw.
"Just look at was is happening to western nations as they slip away from those Christian foundations." Could you give me some examples of what you mean by that statement?
Can you really not see how societies are crumbling as they fall away from God?  Can you not see how God is removing His blessings from the United States of America as they fall away from God?Specific examples?look at the porn industrylook at the divorce rateslook at the decadencelook at the sexual depravitylook at the kinds of things that play on TV and movie screens now... soft porn, nudity... When I was growing up you would never have seen underwear(people in their underwear) on TV.  I remember being horrified when the first ad for feminine supplies was presented on TV.  Nothing is private, nothing is sacred or personal anymore.  It seems that nothing is off limits no matter how offensive.look at all the children growing up without fathersmothers with children from multiple fathersNeed I go on?You think these things are not having their impact on the generations subjected to them?  You think these things do not cause chaos and confusion in young minds?  and who is the author of chaos and confusion?  Who is the one who seeks to lead us away from God, who seeks to deceive at every turn, using what seems harmless to lead God's creation down a destructive path to their end.  Who is the author of the lie?What preceded the fall of the Roman empire?  Moral decline.Moral decline always precedes a fall.  Pride goeth before a fall... believing in oneself rather than in serving the laws of God.and obviously I do not know how to be brief... [IMG]smileys/smiley4.gif" align="absmiddle" alt="Big%20smile" />I better get back to my Thanksgiving.Have a good one.Watch some old movies some time... the old TV shows.  The Christian message used to be in everything.  It kept people atuned to Godly principles and values.  It governed the people, by their own choosing, but that moral compass has long since disappeared from the public sphere.


Caringheart,

   My Mother used to tell me all the time, "If you look for the bad in any situation or person you will always find it, so it is always better to look for the good."

Larry]]> Sat, 24 Nov 2012 02:59:05 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=170596#170596 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Originally posted by Mahdi The... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=170581#170581 Author: Experiential
Subject: 23672
Posted: 23 November 2012 at 6:32pm

Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

I challenge you to provide an
ethical teaching from the
Quran higher than this …
“You have heard that it was
said, ‘Love your neighbor[a]
and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and
pray for those who persecute
you..



“O ye who believe! stand
out firmly for Allah, as
witnesses to fair dealing,
and let not the hatred of
others to you make you
swerve to wrong and depart from justice. Be just:
that is next to piety: and
fear Allah. For Allah is well-
acquainted with all that ye
do.” (Surah Al Ma’idah 5:8)


“As to the Righteous, they
shall drink of a Cup (of
Wine) mixed with Kafur,-
A Fountain where the
Devotees of Allah do drink,
making it flow in unstinted abundance. They perform
(their) vows, and they fear
a Day whose evil flies far
and wide. And they feed,
for the love of Allah, the
indigent, the orphan, and the captive,- (Saying),”We
feed you for the sake of
Allah alone: no reward do
we desire from you, nor
thanks.” (Surah Al Insan 76:5-9)


Qur'an: Surah 90   Al-Balad
(The City) Nay, I swear by this city... We
verily have created man in an
atmosphere... But he hath not
attempted the Ascent, Ah, what will convey unto thee
what the Ascent is! It is to
free a slave, And to feed in the day of hunger, An orphan near
of kin, Or some poor wretch in
misery. And to be of those
who believe and exhort one
another to perseverance and
exhort one another to pity.


Qur'an 2:177   Surah Al-
Baqarah (The Cow) It is not righteousness that ye
turn your faces to the East and
the West; but righteous is he who believeth in Allah and the Last Day and the angels and
the Scripture and the Prophets;
and giveth his wealth, for love
of Him, to kinsfolk and to
orphans and the needy and the
wayfarer and to those who ask, and to set slaves free; and observeth proper worship
and payeth the poor due. And
those who keep their treaty
when they make one, and the
patient in tribulation and
adversity and time of stress. Such are they who are sincere.
Such are the God fearing.

Quran 002.280 If the debtor is in a difficulty, grant him time Till it is easy for him to repay. But if ye remit it by way of charity, that is best for you if ye only knew.

Quran
005.045 We ordained therein for them: "Life for life, eye for eye, nose or nose, ear for ear, tooth for tooth, and wounds equal for equal." But if any one remits the retaliation by way of charity, it is an act of atonement for himself. And if any fail to judge by (the light
of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (No better than) wrong-doers

Quran
003.092 By no means shall ye attain righteousness unless ye give (freely) of that which ye love; and whatever ye give, of a truth Allah knoweth it well.


"As for the orphan, do not oppress him; and as for the beggar, turn him not away." (Qur'an 93:9)

Quran
"Repel evil with what
is best, when lo! he
between whom and
you there is enmity
will be like a warm
friend." (41:34)

Quran

Yes I recognize the ethical basis to these. They are about charity, justice and mercy and of course I respect that. All religions have an ethical basis to them, Hinduism, Buddhism, etc.

 

What particularly draws me to Isa is his call to lay down ones life not merely submission or attempting to achieve good standard in areas of justice, charity and mercy. He required these things but more. He requires and displays complete self sacrifice. He even forgave his persecutors and executioners while dying on the cross. And this is the central message of Christianity, God laid his life down for humanity which is the pattern for Christians to follow. To lay their own lives down.

Yes Mohammad had some high ethical sayings and deeds, but at the end of the day he was a man of the sword while Jesus was of peace.

]]> Fri, 23 Nov 2012 18:32:01 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=170581#170581 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Originally posted by Mahdi The... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=170580#170580 Author: Experiential
Subject: 23672
Posted: 23 November 2012 at 6:29pm

Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

Experiential, thanks for not answering my questions and acting like a parrot. The God i believe in could not order mass murder of innocent people. So, the Bible must be wrong. And for people to commit massacres and credit it to God is despicable, claiming God gave them the land and ordered the killings. That is preposterous. And since Jesus is depicted displaying the same racist behaviour in the New Testament, and since Jesus is part of the Trinity makes him equally responsible for old Testament massacres, this is mind boggling. If the Bible and christianity is true, Jesus was racist.

Thanks for not acknowledging or attempting to refute my points. As your response is to simply repeat your allegations without responding to my points I will simply repeat my points until you attempt to refute. Here they are for you again to respond to.

 

  1. As you believe in the same God as Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses and Jesus, your argument as a Muslim does not makes sense as the God you are ‘judging’ is your God.

 

  1. What happened to the non Jews, God also brought about on the Jewish people through the Assyrians, Babylonians and Romans. So there was no favoritism there.

 

  1. In terms of the Canaanites the Bible is clear in that God was exceedingly patient with them.

 Im not sure how as a Muslim you would insult Gods prophet and The Messiah Isa (pbuh)? Surely you will be weighed in balance on the scales?

Remember Jesus was a man of peace while Mohammad was a war monger with blood on his hands. No comparison there!

 

 

]]> Fri, 23 Nov 2012 18:29:19 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=170580#170580 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Mahdi Said And that is why the... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=170579#170579 Author: Experiential
Subject: 23672
Posted: 23 November 2012 at 6:25pm

Mahdi Said

And that is why the Bible scholars used 'dog'. Quran holds everybody to the same standards and does not discriminate based on race/tribe/nation.

Are you resorting to blatant lies because you are ashamed of what is written in the Bible?

 

κυνάριον (kynarion, 2952) Meanings dogs Greek-English Concordance: 4

verses Greek (NLG) English (NLT) Matt.15:26 26ὁ δὲ ἀποκριθεὶς

εἶπεν, Οὐκ

ἔστιν καλὸν

λαβεῖν τὸν

ἄρτον τῶν

τέκνων καὶ βαλεῖν τοῖς κυναρίοις. 26 Jesus

responded ,

“ It isn’t

right to

take food

from the children

and throw

it to the dogs . ” Matt.15:27 27ἡ δὲ εἶπεν, Ναί,

κύριε, καὶ

γὰρ τὰ κυνάρια ἐσθίει ἀπὸ

τῶν ψιχίων

τῶν

πιπτόντων

ἀπὸ τῆς

τραπέζης τῶν κυρίων

αὐτῶν. 27 She

replied , “

That’s

true , Lord ,

but even dogs are

allowed to

eat the

scraps that

fall

beneath their

masters'

table . ” Mark.7:27 27καὶ ἔλεγεν

αὐτῇ, ̓Άφες

πρῶτον

χορτασθῆναι

τὰ τέκνα. οὐ

γάρ ἐστιν καλὸν

λαβεῖν τὸν

ἄρτον τῶν

τέκνων καὶ

τοῖς κυναρίοις βαλεῖν. 27 Jesus

told her , “

First I

should feed

the

children — my own

family , the

Jews . 

*  It isn’t

right to

take food from the

children

and throw

it to the dogs . ” Mark.7:28 28ἡ δὲ ἀπεκρίθη

καὶ λέγει

αὐτῷ, Ναί,

κύριε, καὶ

τὰ κυνάρια ὑποκάτω

τῆς τραπέζης

ἐσθίουσιν

ἀπὸ τῶν

ψιχίων τῶν

παιδίων. 28 She

replied , “

That’s

true , Lord ,

but even

the dogs under the

table are

allowed to

eat the

scraps

from the children’s

plates . ”

 

My Reply

 Lets look at it all in context. The purpose of Jesus' withdrawal to Tyre was to secure rest not to minister. Healing as this woman wanted was not done in times of rest but in times of ministry.

The Gospels could have recorded Jesus using the traditional Jewish word  kuon, which carried derogatory connotations of uncleanness. Like scavengers.

However Jesus did not as the word “dog” in Matthew 15:26 in the Greek is κυνάριον kynarion meaning –little dog, or puppy.

 

Did Jesus initially ignore her request by staying silent? Remember that Jesus (as were traditional rabbi's of the day) was fond of using questions, challenges, and puzzles to engage a student in the learning/growing process (e.g. Mt 13.51; 15.34; Mt 16.13; 17.25; 19.17; 20.22; 20.32--esp. 22.41; Mk 3.4; Lk 10.36; Lk 20.17; John 5.6). Silence as a response was used by Rabbi's in teaching and Jesus had used silence as a response in John 8.1-11, to dramatically heighten the event, and may be using it here in this way.

 

Also there was no "NO" in Jesus, only "WAIT". Who knows what Jesus motives were? Was it Jesus teaching her (and us) how to pray through waiting and perseverence?

Was it Jesus making comment on a culture where children were burned to death as a sacrifice to the evening star that she would come asking for her daughter to be healed. Maybe he felt her motives were not good that perhaps she just wanted a whole and pure child so that she would be an acceptable sacrifice to this terrible ‘god.’ Who knows?

Why do you assume that the harsh response of Jesus was completely unmerited when we didn't know a thing about the woman herself and he knew a lot of terrible things about the culture in which she lived?

I believe Jesus is not calling the Canaanite woman a ‘puppy’ to insult her but, rather, to test her faith

As far as we know, there was something hidden in that comment that was special to her. His tone of voice (and appearance of eyes) means so much in discerning favor or contempt. The Canaanite woman was not offended.

 

Notice that the woman herself gives us no indication that she is offended by anything that Jesus says or does. What we do know is that, offended or not, she continues to press her petition to Jesus, and Jesus finally grants her desire and praises her faith.

Considering it was probably at a meal time with little kids hanging around

and pet puppies at their feet I can see the context.

Taken out of context and by ignoring the original language, you accuse these verses of saying that Jesus considered anyone other than Jewish people to be unclean scavengers.

It's clear from a reading of all four Gospels and understanding original language that Jesus would not and did not ignore the needs of non-Jews.

Taking verses out of context is a bad habit you have with the numerous threads you have started. You simply cut and paste loosely connected verses without understanding the contextual basis to them all.

 

You have a problem with this Jew non Jew thing.

The language in this same story in Mark is somewhat milder: that the children must be fed "first" (Mk 7:27) allows for the possibility of a later healing and a window for the coming Gentile mission.

he goes on to feed 4,000 Gentile followers in the very next story. So much for "crumbs." ???

 

God did distinguish the Israelites by setting them apart as his own nation (Lev 20:24-26), yet his reason for doing so was not to play favorites, but to benefit everyone (Gen 18:18, 22:18). The Israelites were intended to be an example to others, so that everyone would hear about God and be saved. When other nations witnessed or heard about Israel's history - that is, their relationship with God and God's actions on their behalf - those nations would hear about God and have reason to believe in him. God performed the miracles in Egypt and during the Exodus for this reason (Ex 9:16, Josh 4:23-24), and they did cause people in other nations to revere God (Josh 2:8-11).

God's plan for revealing himself and extending salvation to the world has always included both Jews and Gentiles. The Old Testament makes it clear that the Jews were set apart as a nation in order to be witnesses to the entire world

 

 

]]> Fri, 23 Nov 2012 18:25:42 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=170579#170579 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Originally posted by Larry Originally... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=170498#170498 Author: Caringheart
Subject: 23672
Posted: 22 November 2012 at 10:05am

Originally posted by Larry

Originally posted by Caringheart


If you study the old testament, many of the laws of Rome are descendants of what was taught(by God) in the Jewish scriptures and in their society.  So I think Roman thinking was influenced by the Jewish population.   
   Christian teaching which flows from the Judeo teaching.
 the principles of Judeo-Christian teaching(because they are the true guidance of God), incorporated with the forward thinking of earlier societies, such as the philosophy of the Greeks, that has resulted in the stability of other countries.This is why I still say, " I believe the strength of the west lies precisely in the fact that it is built on a solid Christian foundation, which includes separation of church and state and free will to choose..."
  "It is precisely Christianity that teaches equality for all."


Caringheart,

   I agree with some of your points but disagree on others. Your statement that "the basis of our law, constitution and democracy comes from Christian teaching," is not completely correct. The actual word, "demokratia" is Greek for "popular government." Roman law descended from the Greeks almost exclusively. In fact, the Romans persecuted the Christians for centuries before declaring Christianity the "state religion" by Emperor Constantine in the fourth century A.D. Most of the fundamentals of Roman law were settled long before Christianity even existed. I am not saying that Christianity had no impact on Roman law, but it was much less than you desribe and did not come into effect for the most part until Constantine.
   I don't really understand what you mean whewn you say, "Just look at was is happening to western nations as they slip away from those Christian foundations." Could you give me some examples of what you mean by that statement?
   Christianity does not need the help of any human government to give it it's legitimacy, in fact, when religion is mixed with politics, it is religion that loses the most in terms of it's moral authority. I am a Christian and always have been, but I do not want other "Christians" telling me how to live my religion or impose their particular beliefs onto me. I support the complete separation of church and state, period.
   Just look what happened in the early history of the United States when early colonies used Christianity and the Bible as the basis of their laws and social "norms." People were branded as "heretics" and "witches", based on the colonial's interpretation of what the Bible had to say and committed the most heinous executions of these and other people branded as not being "good Christians."
   The Bible has been used (incorrectly) as the source for many of the world's most cruel and inhuman persecutions, such as the Spanish Inquisition, for one example. I think that Jesus knew very well what he was saying when he made the comment, "Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's and to God the things that are God's."
   But these cruel and inhuman examples do not come from Christianity alone, all religions have been misused at different times to persecute and discriminate against others who are not seen as properly "religious" by the religious authorities at the time.
   The ancient "philosophy of the Greeks" was not based on Christianity, it was actually based on humanism, a belief in the strength of human achievement and human political theories. The Greek emphasis on Christianity did not come until after the firsty century A.D. when Christianity was introduced to the Greek people.
   As I said before, I am a Christian and believe strongly in the teachings of Jesus Christ, but there are many Christians who have a very different interpretations of what Christianity means and how it should be practiced by "true Christians."
   Anyway, just some thoughts of mine. I hope you have a great Thanksgiving too!

Larry


Hi Larry,

I think you misunderstood alot of what I wrote but I don't have the time to go into it right now other than to say briefly...
that I didn't/don't say that Romans took away from Christianity but that it is the old testament scriptures given to the Jews which came first and influenced both Roman society and Christianity.  It is Christianity that takes from the old.
If I had time and energy I could provide the supporting proofs... I did a study on it one time, but I do not know where those notes are now.  Read the old testament.
If I had time I could also provide the proofs of how Christian teachings guided the forefathers in shaping the United States of America.  Get a Geneva Bible Patriot's edition and read it.
I agree many wrong things have occurred in the name of religion but this is due to misguided leaders.
The foundations are still without flaw.
"Just look at was is happening to western nations as they slip away from those Christian foundations." Could you give me some examples of what you mean by that statement?
Can you really not see how societies are crumbling as they fall away from God?  Can you not see how God is removing His blessings from the United States of America as they fall away from God?
Specific examples?
look at the porn industry
look at the divorce rates
look at the decadence
look at the sexual depravity
look at the kinds of things that play on TV and movie screens now... soft porn, nudity... When I was growing up you would never have seen underwear(people in their underwear) on TV.  I remember being horrified when the first ad for feminine supplies was presented on TV.  Nothing is private, nothing is sacred or personal anymore.  It seems that nothing is off limits no matter how offensive.
look at all the children growing up without fathers
mothers with children from multiple fathers
Need I go on?
You think these things are not having their impact on the generations subjected to them?  You think these things do not cause chaos and confusion in young minds?  and who is the author of chaos and confusion?  Who is the one who seeks to lead us away from God, who seeks to deceive at every turn, using what seems harmless to lead God's creation down a destructive path to their end.  Who is the author of the lie?

What preceded the fall of the Roman empire?  Moral decline.
Moral decline always precedes a fall.  Pride goeth before a fall... believing in oneself rather than in serving the laws of God.

and obviously I do not know how to be brief... Big%20smile
I better get back to my Thanksgiving.
Have a good one.

Watch some old movies some time... the old TV shows.  The Christian message used to be in everything.  It kept people atuned to Godly principles and values.  It governed the people, by their own choosing, but that moral compass has long since disappeared from the public sphere.


Edited by Caringheart - 22 November 2012 at 12:07pm]]> Thu, 22 Nov 2012 10:05:16 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=170498#170498 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Originally posted by Caringheart Originally... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=170485#170485 Author: Larry
Subject: 23672
Posted: 22 November 2012 at 1:16am

Originally posted by Caringheart




Originally posted by Larry

     They are very far away from being a government that exists by the "Will of God,"
Hi Larry,Regarding this statement I say this... they are not far away from their god.  Yes, they are far away from the true God.If you study the old testament, many of the laws of Rome are descendants of what was taught(by God) in the Jewish scriptures and in their society.  So I think Roman thinking was influenced by the Jewish population.    "the basis of our law, constitution, and democracy comes from Christian teaching."   Christian teaching which flows from the Judeo teaching.I agree, the declaration of an authorized 'state religion' only corrupts... look at England when it split from the original church because it wanted the church to support the decisions of the king rather than the laws of God.  Having the two tied together is not good, but I believe it is the principles of Judeo-Christian teaching(because they are the true guidance of God), incorporated with the forward thinking of earlier societies, such as the philosophy of the Greeks, that has resulted in the stability of other countries.This is why I still say, " I believe the strength of the west lies precisely in the fact that it is built on a solid Christian foundation, which includes separation of church and state and free will to choose..."Just look at what is happening to western nations as they slip away from those Christian foundations.The second class citizen status comes out of the Islamic teaching.Not so with Christian teaching.  "It is precisely Christianity that teaches equality for all."
"Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's and to God the things that are God's."
Yes, this also comes from the old testament when God, through His prophets, would anoint not only a spiritual leader of the people, but also a king.Hope you are enjoying a Happy Thanksgiving day. [IMG]smileys/smiley1.gif" align="absmiddle" alt="Smile" />CH



Caringheart,

   I agree with some of your points but disagree on others. Your statement that "the basis of our law, constitution and democracy comes from Christian teaching," is not completely correct. The actual word, "demokratia" is Greek for "popular government." Roman law descended from the Greeks almost exclusively. In fact, the Romans persecuted the Christians for centuries before declaring Christianity the "state religion" by Emperor Constantine in the fourth century A.D. Most of the fundamentals of Roman law were settled long before Christianity even existed. I am not saying that Christianity had no impact on Roman law, but it was much less than you desribe and did not come into effect for the most part until Constantine.
   I don't really understand what you mean whewn you say, "Just look at was is happening to western nations as they slip away from those Christian foundations." Could you give me some examples of what you mean by that statement?
   Christianity does not need the help of any human government to give it it's legitimacy, in fact, when religion is mixed with politics, it is religion that loses the most in terms of it's moral authority. I am a Christian and always have been, but I do not want other "Christians" telling me how to live my religion or impose their particular beliefs onto me. I support the complete separation of church and state, period.
   Just look what happened in the early history of the United States when early colonies used Christianity and the Bible as the basis of their laws and social "norms." People were branded as "heretics" and "witches", based on the colonial's interpretation of what the Bible had to say and committed the most heinous executions of these and other people branded as not being "good Christians."
   The Bible has been used (incorrectly) as the source for many of the world's most cruel and inhuman persecutions, such as the Spanish Inquisition, for one example. I think that Jesus knew very well what he was saying when he made the comment, "Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's and to God the things that are God's."
   But these cruel and inhuman examples do not come from Christianity alone, all religions have been misused at different times to persecute and discriminate against others who are not seen as properly "religious" by the religious authorities at the time.
   The ancient "philosophy of the Greeks" was not based on Christianity, it was actually based on humanism, a belief in the strength of human achievement and human political theories. The Greek emphasis on Christianity did not come until after the firsty century A.D. when Christianity was introduced to the Greek people.
   As I said before, I am a Christian and believe strongly in the teachings of Jesus Christ, but there are many Christians who have a very different interpretations of what Christianity means and how it should be practiced by "true Christians."
   Anyway, just some thoughts of mine. I hope you have a great Thanksgiving too!

Larry

Edited by Larry - 22 November 2012 at 1:18am]]> Thu, 22 Nov 2012 01:16:09 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=170485#170485 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Originally posted by Larry... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=170471#170471 Author: Caringheart
Subject: 23672
Posted: 21 November 2012 at 6:41pm

Originally posted by Larry

 
   They are very far away from being a government that exists by the "Will of God,"


Hi Larry,

Regarding this statement I say this... they are not far away from their god.  Yes, they are far away from the true God.

If you study the old testament, many of the laws of Rome are descendants of what was taught(by God) in the Jewish scriptures and in their society.  So I think Roman thinking was influenced by the Jewish population.
    "the basis of our law, constitution, and democracy comes from Christian teaching."   Christian teaching which flows from the Judeo teaching.

I agree, the declaration of an authorized 'state religion' only corrupts... look at England when it split from the original church because it wanted the church to support the decisions of the king rather than the laws of God.  Having the two tied together is not good, but I believe it is the principles of Judeo-Christian teaching(because they are the true guidance of God), incorporated with the forward thinking of earlier societies, such as the philosophy of the Greeks, that has resulted in the stability of other countries.

This is why I still say, " I believe the strength of the west lies precisely in the fact that it is built on a solid Christian foundation, which includes separation of church and state and free will to choose..."

Just look at what is happening to western nations as they slip away from those Christian foundations.

The second class citizen status comes out of the Islamic teaching.
Not so with Christian teaching.  "It is precisely Christianity that teaches equality for all."


"Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's and to God the things that are God's."

Yes, this also comes from the old testament when God, through His prophets, would anoint not only a spiritual leader of the people, but also a king.

Hope you are enjoying a Happy Thanksgiving day. Smile
CH


Edited by Caringheart - 21 November 2012 at 6:49pm]]> Wed, 21 Nov 2012 18:41:24 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=170471#170471 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Originally posted by Caringheart Originally... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=170463#170463 Author: Mahdi The Seeke
Subject: 23672
Posted: 21 November 2012 at 11:37am

Originally posted by Caringheart


Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

Originally posted by Caringheart


Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

Luke was an eye witness? Yes or no.
Greetings Mahdi,Luke was recording what was believed and reported (i.e., the testimony) of the eye witnesses. (This would be like a court recorder who records the eye witness testimony at trials)1 Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us,2 Even as they ... which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word; [delivered them unto us]3 It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus,4 That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.Salaam,CH

So, NO.
Greetings Mahdi,and so...Would you discount those things recorded by a court recorder who records eye witness testimony at trials?CH


1.Witnesses lie/will not recall events accurately.
2.If someone is recording witness statements, they simply record what is said, and cannot verify truth.
3.Fake witnesses.
]]> Wed, 21 Nov 2012 11:37:05 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=170463#170463 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Originally posted by Caringheart Originally... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=170391#170391 Author: Larry
Subject: 23672
Posted: 20 November 2012 at 12:10am

Originally posted by Caringheart


Originally posted by Larry


Mahdi,

   The problem you have here is that the Old Testament and the Qur'an have their teachings rooted in the past and they are not very easily adaptable to the modern world. We Christians follow the New Covenant with God, the New Testament of Jesus Christ, that superseded the Old Testament and is highly relevant and adaptable to the modern world, which is illustrated by the civilizations of the Western World with all their technology and advancements, especially in the equality of men and women and the protections of the laws in which everyone is equal in standing. There is a great and discernable difference between the cultures of the Western world, Europe and America in particular, and the cultures of the Islamic world, particularly in the Middle East. The West is characterized by a more modern and adaptable way of life in contrast to almost all the Arabic countries of the Middle East that are constantly at war with each other, Sunnis and Shia's, each calling the other apostates. Even a casual look at what is happening in the Islamic Middle East today and what is happening in the West is sufficient to see that there is a great deal of difference between them. The main problem that exists in the cultures of the Middle East is that they combine secular government with religion, particularly when they implement Sharia as the basis of their laws and statutes. The strength of the West lies in the separation of religion and state. Laws are built on the concept of precedent and settled law, not on religious teachings. Religions are protected and have absolute rights to their beliefs, but they don't have the right to impose their religious beliefs on other members of society. That is why in the United States, in particular, all religions are permitted to coexist with each other, which they do successfully, such as Christians (Catholic and Protestant), Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, Sikhs, Native American, etc.

   In Matthew 22:17-21,
   17. "Tell us (the Pharisees asked Jesus), therefore, what do You think? Is it lawful to pay taxes to Caesar or not?"
   18. "But Jesus [perceived their wickedness, and said, "Why do you test Me, you hypocrites?"
   19. "Show me the tax money." So they brought Him a denarius."
   20. "And He said to them, "Whose image and inscription is this?"
   21. "They said to Him, "Caesar's." And He said to them, "Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's."

   So Jesus was telling them that there is a secular world and a religious world that can exist at the same time, without being joined. Whenever God is mixed with the secular and political affairs of this world there are always problems because no one knows where one stops and another begins. And there are always differences and difficulties between the various religions, such as is seen in the modern Middle East where Jews and Christians and Muslims do not share the same ideas and beliefs, and this is what leads to all the religious conflicts seen between the different faiths. In Saudi Arabia, for example, no other religion other than Islam is permitted. If Islam is declared to be the "state religion" where does that leave Jews and Christians, as well as other faiths, in the affairs of those nations? They will always be considered as "second class" citizens since they do not accept Islam as the "only true religion." Only by separating the religious and secular worlds is it possible to have a society in which all the citizens enjoy the same rights and responsibilities, and no one can force their religions on others who do not share their faith.

Larry
   
"The strength of the West lies in the separation of religion and state. Laws are built on the concept of precedent and settled law, not on religious teachings."Hi Larry,I would like to add some clarification to this statement, from my point of view.  I believe the strength of the west lies precisely in the fact that it is built on a solid Christian foundation, which includes separation of church and state and free will to choose...  the freedom for all to practice their own religion.  But the basis of our law, constitution, and democracy comes from Christian teaching.  It is precisely Christianity that teaches equality for all.  At times in the past the west has not always adhered to that principle but thankfully they have progressed.  And in truth, the native American way of life was, and has been, oppressed.  Thankfully there are endeavors today to amend that.  The native Americans are renewing their traditions while at the same time seeing the wisdom of progress.The rest of your post I am in complete agreement with.  [IMG]smileys/smiley1.gif" align="absmiddle" alt="Smile" />CH


Caringheart,

   I agree that many Christian principles are embedded in the laws of the United States, but many Christian "principles" are not limited to Christianity. The Biblical ideas for justice and equality are not exclusive to Christianity. But democracy, the right to vote, civil liberties, duties of citizenship, etc., mostly come down from the pagan Greeks and later Roman laws and ideals. Much of the morality behind the making of laws does come from religion, but religion is compromised when it is involved in the affairs of government. Just look at Iran and other theocracies where religious authorities are the people who run the government. They are very far away from being a government that exists by the "Will of God," even if they believe that they are. Which "God" are we talking about, and who decides that choice? So many people claim that the United States is a "Christian" country but it is not. The majority of the citizens may be Christian, but the basis of a true democracy is equality among all the citizens, and when a country creates a "state religion" then all sorts of problems come to fore. In Islamic-ruled countries Christians, Jews and others are seen in many cases as second-class citizens. The foundation of Western civilization, the idea that the individual has rights that can not be taken away by the state, that the state exists to serve the needs of the people. The Western idea that the rights of the minority must not be subdued or dominated by the tyranny of the majority. The Bible itself is not meant to be a guide for how to run a government or handle secular matters of the state. That is why there IS a separation of church and state.

"Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's and to God the things that are God's."

Larry

Edited by Larry - 20 November 2012 at 12:12am]]> Tue, 20 Nov 2012 00:10:31 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=170391#170391 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Originally posted by Mahdi... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=170359#170359 Author: Caringheart
Subject: 23672
Posted: 19 November 2012 at 12:23pm

Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

Originally posted by Caringheart


Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

Luke was an eye witness? Yes or no.
Greetings Mahdi,Luke was recording what was believed and reported (i.e., the testimony) of the eye witnesses. (This would be like a court recorder who records the eye witness testimony at trials)1 Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us,2 Even as they ... which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word; [delivered them unto us]3 It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus,4 That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.Salaam,CH

So, NO.


Greetings Mahdi,

and so...
Would you discount those things recorded by a court recorder who records eye witness testimony at trials?

CH
]]> Mon, 19 Nov 2012 12:23:48 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=170359#170359 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Originally posted by Larry Mahdi, The... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=170357#170357 Author: Caringheart
Subject: 23672
Posted: 19 November 2012 at 12:18pm

Originally posted by Larry



Mahdi,

   The problem you have here is that the Old Testament and the Qur'an have their teachings rooted in the past and they are not very easily adaptable to the modern world. We Christians follow the New Covenant with God, the New Testament of Jesus Christ, that superseded the Old Testament and is highly relevant and adaptable to the modern world, which is illustrated by the civilizations of the Western World with all their technology and advancements, especially in the equality of men and women and the protections of the laws in which everyone is equal in standing. There is a great and discernable difference between the cultures of the Western world, Europe and America in particular, and the cultures of the Islamic world, particularly in the Middle East. The West is characterized by a more modern and adaptable way of life in contrast to almost all the Arabic countries of the Middle East that are constantly at war with each other, Sunnis and Shia's, each calling the other apostates. Even a casual look at what is happening in the Islamic Middle East today and what is happening in the West is sufficient to see that there is a great deal of difference between them. The main problem that exists in the cultures of the Middle East is that they combine secular government with religion, particularly when they implement Sharia as the basis of their laws and statutes. The strength of the West lies in the separation of religion and state. Laws are built on the concept of precedent and settled law, not on religious teachings. Religions are protected and have absolute rights to their beliefs, but they don't have the right to impose their religious beliefs on other members of society. That is why in the United States, in particular, all religions are permitted to coexist with each other, which they do successfully, such as Christians (Catholic and Protestant), Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, Sikhs, Native American, etc.

   In Matthew 22:17-21,
   17. "Tell us (the Pharisees asked Jesus), therefore, what do You think? Is it lawful to pay taxes to Caesar or not?"
   18. "But Jesus [perceived their wickedness, and said, "Why do you test Me, you hypocrites?"
   19. "Show me the tax money." So they brought Him a denarius."
   20. "And He said to them, "Whose image and inscription is this?"
   21. "They said to Him, "Caesar's." And He said to them, "Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's."

   So Jesus was telling them that there is a secular world and a religious world that can exist at the same time, without being joined. Whenever God is mixed with the secular and political affairs of this world there are always problems because no one knows where one stops and another begins. And there are always differences and difficulties between the various religions, such as is seen in the modern Middle East where Jews and Christians and Muslims do not share the same ideas and beliefs, and this is what leads to all the religious conflicts seen between the different faiths. In Saudi Arabia, for example, no other religion other than Islam is permitted. If Islam is declared to be the "state religion" where does that leave Jews and Christians, as well as other faiths, in the affairs of those nations? They will always be considered as "second class" citizens since they do not accept Islam as the "only true religion." Only by separating the religious and secular worlds is it possible to have a society in which all the citizens enjoy the same rights and responsibilities, and no one can force their religions on others who do not share their faith.

Larry
   


"The strength of the West lies in the separation of religion and state. Laws are built on the concept of precedent and settled law, not on religious teachings."

Hi Larry,

I would like to add some clarification to this statement, from my point of view. 

I believe the strength of the west lies precisely in the fact that it is built on a solid Christian foundation, which includes separation of church and state and free will to choose...  the freedom for all to practice their own religion.  But the basis of our law, constitution, and democracy comes from Christian teaching.  It is precisely Christianity that teaches equality for all.  At times in the past the west has not always adhered to that principle but thankfully they have progressed.  And in truth, the native American way of life was, and has been, oppressed.  Thankfully there are endeavors today to amend that.  The native Americans are renewing their traditions while at the same time seeing the wisdom of progress.

The rest of your post I am in complete agreement with.  Smile

CH
]]> Mon, 19 Nov 2012 12:18:35 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=170357#170357 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Originally posted by Experiential&lt;P... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=170349#170349 Author: Mahdi The Seeke
Subject: 23672
Posted: 19 November 2012 at 10:00am

Originally posted by Experiential

<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><FONT face="Times New Roman">Mahdi Said<?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">1.Answer my question.


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">2.Reinterpret your own version of the Bible to justify your translation otherwise you are making baseless claims. Have you even read the verse?


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">Matthew 15:26 King James Bible (<?:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Cambridge</st1:place></st1:City> Ed.) But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">Please, if you want to engage in serious discussions, desist from making such baseless arguments. DOG is the word.


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">How are dogs described in old testament. One example


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><FONT face="Times New Roman"><SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>have surrounded me;


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">a gang of evildoers has closed


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">in on me; they pierced my


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">hands and my feet. Psalm 22:16


<B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><FONT face="Times New Roman">

<B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><FONT face="Times New Roman">My Reply<o:p></o:p>

<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">OK then. The Hebrew word for ‘dog’ in Psalm 22:16 is -


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><SPAN =lextitlehb1><SPAN style="mso-ansi-font-size: 12.0pt; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt"><FONT face="Times New Roman">כלב</SPAN></SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Trebuchet MS'"> (<SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Trebuchet MS'">keleb)<o:p></o:p></SPAN></SPAN>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><SPAN style="FONT-STYLE: normal; FONT-FAMILY: 'Trebuchet MS'; mso-bidi-font-style: italic">Meaning - <o:p></o:p></SPAN>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">a) dog (literal)


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">b) contempt or abasement (fig.)


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><o:p><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </o:p>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><FONT face="Times New Roman">While in Matthew 15:26 the word in the Greek is <SPAN =lextitlegk1><SPAN style="mso-ansi-font-size: 12.0pt; mso-bidi-font-size: 12.0pt"><FONT face="Palatino Lino">κυνάριον</SPAN></SPAN><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Trebuchet MS'"> <SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: 'Trebuchet MS'">kynarion</SPAN></SPAN>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">Meaning –


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">little dog, or puppy.


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><o:p><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </o:p>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">Now perhaps you can explain how the Quran interprets non Muslims as donkeys, dogs, beasts, swine and apes.


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><o:p><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </o:p>


And that is why the Bible scholars used 'dog'. Quran holds everybody to the same standards and does not discriminate based on race/tribe/nation.

Are you resorting to blatant lies because you are ashamed of what is written in the Bible?

κυνάριον (kynarion, 2952) Meanings dogs Greek-English Concordance: 4
verses Greek (NLG) English (NLT) Matt.15:26 26ὁ δὲ ἀποκριθεὶς
εἶπεν, Οὐκ
ἔστιν καλὸν
λαβεῖν τὸν
ἄρτον τῶν
τέκνων καὶ βαλεῖν τοῖς κυναρίοις. 26 Jesus
responded ,
“ It isn’t
right to
take food
from the children
and throw
it to the dogs . ” Matt.15:27 27ἡ δὲ εἶπεν, Ναί,
κύριε, καὶ
γὰρ τὰ κυνάρια ἐσθίει ἀπὸ
τῶν ψιχίων
τῶν
πιπτόντων
ἀπὸ τῆς
τραπέζης τῶν κυρίων
αὐτῶν. 27 She
replied , “
That’s
true , Lord ,
but even dogs are
allowed to
eat the
scraps that
fall
beneath their
masters'
table . ” Mark.7:27 27καὶ ἔλεγεν
αὐτῇ, ̓Άφες
πρῶτον
χορτασθῆναι
τὰ τέκνα. οὐ
γάρ ἐστιν καλὸν
λαβεῖν τὸν
ἄρτον τῶν
τέκνων καὶ
τοῖς κυναρίοις βαλεῖν. 27 Jesus
told her , “
First I
should feed
the
children — my own
family , the
Jews . 
*  It isn’t
right to
take food from the
children
and throw
it to the dogs . ” Mark.7:28 28ἡ δὲ ἀπεκρίθη
καὶ λέγει
αὐτῷ, Ναί,
κύριε, καὶ
τὰ κυνάρια ὑποκάτω
τῆς τραπέζης
ἐσθίουσιν
ἀπὸ τῶν
ψιχίων τῶν
παιδίων. 28 She
replied , “
That’s
true , Lord ,
but even
the dogs under the
table are
allowed to
eat the
scraps
from the children’s
plates . ”

Edited by Mahdi The Seeke - 19 November 2012 at 10:16am]]> Mon, 19 Nov 2012 10:00:10 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=170349#170349 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : I challenge you to provide an ethical... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=170347#170347 Author: Mahdi The Seeke
Subject: 23672
Posted: 19 November 2012 at 9:33am

I challenge you to provide an
ethical teaching from the
Quran higher than this …
“You have heard that it was
said, ‘Love your neighbor[a]
and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and
pray for those who persecute
you..



“O ye who believe! stand
out firmly for Allah, as
witnesses to fair dealing,
and let not the hatred of
others to you make you
swerve to wrong and depart from justice. Be just:
that is next to piety: and
fear Allah. For Allah is well-
acquainted with all that ye
do.” (Surah Al Ma’idah 5:8)


“As to the Righteous, they
shall drink of a Cup (of
Wine) mixed with Kafur,-
A Fountain where the
Devotees of Allah do drink,
making it flow in unstinted abundance. They perform
(their) vows, and they fear
a Day whose evil flies far
and wide. And they feed,
for the love of Allah, the
indigent, the orphan, and the captive,- (Saying),”We
feed you for the sake of
Allah alone: no reward do
we desire from you, nor
thanks.” (Surah Al Insan 76:5-9)


Qur'an: Surah 90   Al-Balad
(The City) Nay, I swear by this city... We
verily have created man in an
atmosphere... But he hath not
attempted the Ascent, Ah, what will convey unto thee
what the Ascent is! It is to
free a slave, And to feed in the day of hunger, An orphan near
of kin, Or some poor wretch in
misery. And to be of those
who believe and exhort one
another to perseverance and
exhort one another to pity.


Qur'an 2:177   Surah Al-
Baqarah (The Cow) It is not righteousness that ye
turn your faces to the East and
the West; but righteous is he who believeth in Allah and the Last Day and the angels and
the Scripture and the Prophets;
and giveth his wealth, for love
of Him, to kinsfolk and to
orphans and the needy and the
wayfarer and to those who ask, and to set slaves free; and observeth proper worship
and payeth the poor due. And
those who keep their treaty
when they make one, and the
patient in tribulation and
adversity and time of stress. Such are they who are sincere.
Such are the God fearing.

Quran 002.280 If the debtor is in a difficulty, grant him time Till it is easy for him to repay. But if ye remit it by way of charity, that is best for you if ye only knew.

Quran
005.045 We ordained therein for them: "Life for life, eye for eye, nose or nose, ear for ear, tooth for tooth, and wounds equal for equal." But if any one remits the retaliation by way of charity, it is an act of atonement for himself. And if any fail to judge by (the light
of) what Allah hath revealed, they are (No better than) wrong-doers

Quran
003.092 By no means shall ye attain righteousness unless ye give (freely) of that which ye love; and whatever ye give, of a truth Allah knoweth it well.


"As for the orphan, do not oppress him; and as for the beggar, turn him not away." (Qur'an 93:9)

Quran
"Repel evil with what
is best, when lo! he
between whom and
you there is enmity
will be like a warm
friend." (41:34)

Quran
]]> Mon, 19 Nov 2012 09:33:49 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=170347#170347 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Experiential, thanks for not answering... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=170346#170346 Author: Mahdi The Seeke
Subject: 23672
Posted: 19 November 2012 at 8:00am

Experiential, thanks for not answering my questions and acting like a parrot. The God i believe in could not order mass murder of innocent people. So, the Bible must be wrong. And for people to commit massacres and credit it to God is despicable, claiming God gave them the land and ordered the killings. That is preposterous. And since Jesus is depicted displaying the same racist behaviour in the New Testament, and since Jesus is part of the Trinity makes him equally responsible for old Testament massacres, this is mind boggling. If the Bible and christianity is true, Jesus was racist.]]> Mon, 19 Nov 2012 08:00:16 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=170346#170346 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Mahdi Said Good that at least... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=170315#170315 Author: Experiential
Subject: 23672
Posted: 18 November 2012 at 3:09pm

Mahdi Said

Good that at least you are disturbed by these massacres which never spare women, children and sucklings.

And you also first answered my question before asking one of your own as it should be.

My Reply

As you believe in the same God as Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses and Jesus, and as you appear to understand everything about God and have arrived at ultimate God consciousness then perhaps you can explain 1 Samuel 15.

 
]]> Sun, 18 Nov 2012 15:09:12 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=170315#170315 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Originally posted by Mahdi The... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=170314#170314 Author: Experiential
Subject: 23672
Posted: 18 November 2012 at 3:04pm

Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

Experiential said;
Islam holds no moral
high ground!
At least you agree that the atrocities ordered in the Bible are immoral. As i demonstrated by the Quranic verses i quoted and compared to 1 Samuel 15, islam does have the higher moral ground.

What I said was there is much I don’t understand about God. At least you agree that the atrocities ordered by Mohamad are immoral.As a Muslim don’t you believe in the same God as Adam , Noah, Abraham, Moses and Jesus. So the same God you are trying to judge is yours.

But as you appear to understand everything about God and  have arrived at ultimate God consciousness perhaps you can explain 1 Samuel 15.

 

Anyway. I challenge you to provide an ethical teaching from the Quran higher than this …

 

“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[a] and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you..

Mathew 5.43

]]> Sun, 18 Nov 2012 15:04:58 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=170314#170314 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Mahdi Said 1.Answer my question.... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=170312#170312 Author: Experiential
Subject: 23672
Posted: 18 November 2012 at 2:58pm

Mahdi Said

1.Answer my question.

2.Reinterpret your own version of the Bible to justify your translation otherwise you are making baseless claims. Have you even read the verse?

Matthew 15:26 King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.) But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.

Please, if you want to engage in serious discussions, desist from making such baseless arguments. DOG is the word.

How are dogs described in old testament. One example

 have surrounded me;

a gang of evildoers has closed

in on me; they pierced my

hands and my feet. Psalm 22:16

 
My Reply

OK then. The Hebrew word for ‘dog’ in Psalm 22:16 is -

כלב (keleb)

Meaning -

a) dog (literal)

b) contempt or abasement (fig.)

 

While in Matthew 15:26 the word in the Greek is κυνάριον kynarion

Meaning –

little dog, or puppy.

 

Now perhaps you can explain how the Quran interprets non Muslims as donkeys, dogs, beasts, swine and apes.

 

]]> Sun, 18 Nov 2012 14:58:45 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=170312#170312 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Mahdi Said At least first acknowledge... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=170311#170311 Author: Experiential
Subject: 23672
Posted: 18 November 2012 at 2:53pm

Mahdi Said

At least first acknowledge that you accused me falsely by claiming my position is an opinion when you very well know God of the Bible ordered the massacre of whole nations, pregnamt women and sucklings all inclusive.

My Reply

Opinion ? Im simply parroting your stock reply to my

well researched arguments.

At least acknowledge my reply that what happened to the non Jews God also brought about on the Jewish people through the Assyrians, Babylonians and Romans. So there was no favoritism there. And in terms of the Canaanites the Bible is clear in that God was exceedingly patient with them.

 

Mahdi Said

Second, the fact that the Israelites were subject to subjugation lays bare their lie of being special. Given that the Israelites went through cycles of being conquered and conquering others, this is proof they are nothing special.

My Reply

A mentioned to you previously, all human beings are special to God. The Jews simply carried the Messianic lineage. Gods love for humanity is evident in the Torah before the Jews were a distinct people.

Later as evidenced by the Torah, Gods love and impartial judgment in his dealings with humanity were first for the Jew and then for the gentile.

 

Mahdi Said Third, are you using the Quran to justify the Bible? Or Islam to justify Christianity?

Comparing Muhammad SAW battles to the genocide ordered by God of the Bible? FYI, they are totally different. I will check your response to another post where i compared verses from Quran and Bible about war.

My Reply

I challenge you to provide an ethical teaching from the Quran higher than this …

“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor[a] and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you..

Mathew 5.43

 

Mahdi Said

Fourth, God knew how contaminating the canaanites were? Seriously? I use the following analogy only to make you realise how disgusting, racist and 'some other words i cannot think of right now' that statement is. THAT sounds like something Hitler would come up with. Internalise this before replying.

Ps 'God knew......'? Congratulations on being able to read God's mind.

My Reply

You seem pretty good at reading Gods mind. God is the God of life, death and justice. Life and death belong to Him.

Why don’t you stop behaving like God and show the same honesty in saying there is much about God you don’t understand.

 

If you’re looking to prove that the Quran has a higher ethical basis than Jesus in the New Testament then I challenge you to prove it.

]]> Sun, 18 Nov 2012 14:53:32 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=170311#170311 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Originally posted by Mahdi The... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=170287#170287 Author: Larry
Subject: 23672
Posted: 18 November 2012 at 3:24am

Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

Experiential said;My Reply There is much I do not
understand about God.
Good that at least you are disturbed by these massacres which never sparee women, children and sucklings.
And you also first answered my question before asking one of your own as it should be.
Experiential said;
Am I right to say you
supported the actions of
Mohammad in his war
mongering? Which side would you have
taken in all the civil wars and
jihads throughout your Muslim
“Golden Era” and beyond?
Do you think you might have
been awarded a slave girl for your jihadi efforts?
QURAN2:190 Fight in the way of Allah
against those who fight
against you, but begin not
hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not
aggressors. 2:191 And slay them wherever ye
find them, and drive them out
of the places whence they
drove you out, for persecution
is worse than slaughter. And
fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship
until they first attack you
there, but if they attack you
(there) then slay them. Such is
the reward of disbelievers. 2:192 But if they desist, then lo! Allah
is Forgiving, Merciful. 2:193 And fight them until
persecution is no more, and
religion is for Allah. But if they
desist, then let there be no
hostility except against
wrong-doers.

VS

1 Samuel 15 King James Version (KJV) Samuel also said unto Saul, The LORD sent me to anoint
thee to be king over his
people, over Israel: now
therefore hearken thou unto
the voice of the words of the
LORD. 2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which
Amalek did to Israel, how he
laid wait for him in the way,
when he came up from Egypt. 3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that
they have, and spare them not;
but slay both man and
woman, infant and suckling,
ox and sheep, camel and ass.

Experiential, now please tell me honestly if you are able to bring yourself to do it. Which is more merciful and sensible based on the verses quoted above. Bible or Quran?


Mahdi,

   The problem you have here is that the Old Testament and the Qur'an have their teachings rooted in the past and they are not very easily adaptable to the modern world. We Christians follow the New Covenant with God, the New Testament of Jesus Christ, that superseded the Old Testament and is highly relevant and adaptable to the modern world, which is illustrated by the civilizations of the Western World with all their technology and advancements, especially in the equality of men and women and the protections of the laws in which everyone is equal in standing. There is a great and discernable difference between the cultures of the Western world, Europe and America in particular, and the cultures of the Islamic world, particularly in the Middle East. The West is characterized by a more modern and adaptable way of life in contrast to almost all the Arabic countries of the Middle East that are constantly at war with each other, Sunnis and Shia's, each calling the other apostates. Even a casual look at what is happening in the Islamic Middle East today and what is happening in the West is sufficient to see that there is a great deal of difference between them. The main problem that exists in the cultures of the Middle East is that they combine secular government with religion, particularly when they implement Sharia as the basis of their laws and statutes. The strength of the West lies in the separation of religion and state. Laws are built on the concept of precedent and settled law, not on religious teachings. Religions are protected and have absolute rights to their beliefs, but they don't have the right to impose their religious beliefs on other members of society. That is why in the United States, in particular, all religions are permitted to coexist with each other, which they do successfully, such as Christians (Catholic and Protestant), Jews, Muslims, Buddhists, Hindus, Sikhs, Native American, etc.

   In Matthew 22:17-21,

   17. "Tell us (the Pharisees asked Jesus), therefore, what do You think? Is it lawful to pay taxes to Caesar or not?"

   18. "But Jesus [perceived their wickedness, and said, "Why do you test Me, you hypocrites?"

   19. "Show me the tax money." So they brought Him a denarius."

   20. "And He said to them, "Whose image and inscription is this?"

   21. "They said to Him, "Caesar's." And He said to them, "Render therefore to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's."

   So Jesus was telling them that there is a secular world and a religious world that can exist at the same time, without being joined. Whenever God is mixed with the secular and political affairs of this world there are always problems because no one knows where one stops and another begins. And there are always differences and difficulties between the various religions, such as is seen in the modern Middle East where Jews and Christians and Muslims do not share the same ideas and beliefs, and this is what leads to all the religious conflicts seen between the different faiths. In Saudi Arabia, for example, no other religion other than Islam is permitted. If Islam is declared to be the "state religion" where does that leave Jews and Christians, as well as other faiths, in the affairs of those nations? They will always be considered as "second class" citizens since they do not accept Islam as the "only true religion." Only by separating the religious and secular worlds is it possible to have a society in which all the citizens enjoy the same rights and responsibilities, and no one can force their religions on others who do not share their faith.

Larry
   

Edited by Larry - 18 November 2012 at 3:38am]]> Sun, 18 Nov 2012 03:24:42 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=170287#170287 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Originally posted by Caringheart Originally... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=170279#170279 Author: Mahdi The Seeke
Subject: 23672
Posted: 18 November 2012 at 12:41am

Originally posted by Caringheart


Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

Luke was an eye witness? Yes or no.
Greetings Mahdi,Luke was recording was believed and reported (i.e., the testimony) of the eye witnesses. (This would be like a court recorder who records the eye witness testimony at trials)1 Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us,2 Even as they ... which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word; [delivered them unto us]3 It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus,4 That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.Salaam,CH

So, NO.]]> Sun, 18 Nov 2012 00:41:30 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=170279#170279 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Larry said; Do you have a problem... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=170278#170278 Author: Mahdi The Seeke
Subject: 23672
Posted: 18 November 2012 at 12:29am

Larry said;
Do you have a problem with
dogs? I know that many
Muslims consider them
"unclean" animals and shun
them. In the United States we
cherish and love our dogs, one of the most noble and loyal of
God's creatures. They are used
as guide dogs for the blind,
they pursue and stop fleeing
criminals and they greatly and
effectively assist in the search for survivors after a major
earthquake or bombing, etc.
They really are "man's best
friend." It's obscene that these
gentle and intelligent creatures
should be considered "unclean" by anyone,
especially God.

I have no problem with dogs, and i agree that the Creator should not consider the creation unclean. The problem i have is Jesus insulting a woman, especially when she comes begging for help in a time of need simply for being non israelite. The Bible was not written by americans so their attitude towards dogs is irrelevant. On the other hand, dogs are one of the most,if not the most despised animals in the Bible. Example
Matthew 7:6 Give not that which is holy unto the dogs,
neither cast ye your pearls
before swine, lest they
trample them under their feet,
and turn again and rend you.

Deuteronomy 23:18 Thou shalt not bring the hire of a
whore, or the price of a dog,
into the house of the LORD thy
God for any vow: for even
both these are abomination
unto the LORD thy God.
]]> Sun, 18 Nov 2012 00:29:30 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=170278#170278 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Originally posted by Mahdi The... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=170260#170260 Author: Larry
Subject: 23672
Posted: 17 November 2012 at 5:29pm

Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

Originally posted by Experiential

<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><FONT face="Times New Roman">Mahdi Said<?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">In short, you have no problem with Jesus insulting a woman in need for the simple fault of being a non Jew. To each their own.


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><FONT face="Times New Roman">My Reply<o:p></o:p>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">In short you have no problem with the Quran referring to non Muslims as dogs, donkeys, pigs, beasts and apes.


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><o:p><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </o:p>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">Secondly who says it was an insult?<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>The actual word in the Greek is “puppies”. The image Jesus has chosen is an image of endearment, not insult. The picture of supper-time, with little kids at the table, and their pet puppies at their feet, maybe tugging on their robes for food or play. The puppies, dear to the children and probably so too to Jesus.


1.Answer my question.
2.Reinterpret your own version of the Bible to justify your translation otherwise you are making baseless claims. Have you even read the verse?
Matthew 15:26
King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.) But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.

Please, if you want to engage in serious discussions, desist from making such baseless arguments. DOG is the word.
How are dogs described in old testament. One example

For dogs have surrounded me;
a gang of evildoers has closed
in on me; they pierced my
hands and my feet. Psalm 22:16

A gang of evildoers.


Do you have a problem with dogs? I know that many Muslims consider them "unclean" animals and shun them. In the United States we cherish and love our dogs, one of the most noble and loyal of God's creatures. They are used as guide dogs for the blind, they pursue and stop fleeing criminals and they greatly and effectively assist in the search for survivors after a major earthquake or bombing, etc. They really are "man's best friend." It's obscene that these gentle and intelligent creatures should be considered "unclean" by anyone, especially God. ]]> Sat, 17 Nov 2012 17:29:19 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=170260#170260 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Originally posted by Mahdi... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=170254#170254 Author: Caringheart
Subject: 23672
Posted: 17 November 2012 at 11:45am

Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke


Luke was an eye witness? Yes or no.


Greetings Mahdi,

Luke was recording what was believed and reported (i.e., the testimony) of the eye witnesses.  (This would be like a court recorder who records the eye witness testimony at trials)

1 Forasmuch as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those things which are most surely believed among us,

2 Even as they ... which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word; [delivered them unto us]

3 It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus,

4 That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.

Salaam,
CH


Edited by Caringheart - 19 November 2012 at 12:26pm]]> Sat, 17 Nov 2012 11:45:03 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=170254#170254 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Originally posted by Salaam_ErinMahdi,... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=170228#170228 Author: Mahdi The Seeke
Subject: 23672
Posted: 17 November 2012 at 3:17am

Originally posted by Salaam_Erin

Mahdi, you need to read the whole of Jesus' lecture to the disciples in Matthew 10. In verses 5-6 Jesus tells them as He is sending them out to represent them in His own mission, not to go into Gentile territories or Samaritan towns but the lost sheep of Israel. This is with reference to geography then. He therefore wants them to stick to Judaea and Galilee. However, He goes on to warn them about the long term future of their mission. In verse 17 He then warns the disciples that many Jews will reject them and that they will be expelled from the synagogue. In verse 18 He then says they will go out to the Gentiles. "On my account you will be brought before governors and kings as witnesses to them and to the Gentiles." You see, you have to consider what Jesus' preaching and teaching mission was about. It was about to get the Jews back to obeying the Torah and proclaiming the Kingdom of God and the New Covenant. Then, the Jews were to go out to the Gentiles. In Matthew 10 Jesus sends them on a training mission to Jews only, but warns them that in the future they will be persecuted, driven out of synagogues and end up before governors and kings and be witnesses to them and to the Gentiles. That doesn't mean that the mission to the Jews is over though. For Jesus goes on to say in verse 23, "I tell you the truth, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes."At the end of His mission, as He is about to Ascend into Heaven, on more than one occasion Jesus then gives His disciples that wider mission as predicted in verse 18 which went beyond the training programme of verses 5-6. Look at Matthew 28:18-20 and Acts 1:6-9. After all, Jesus did heal the Syro-Phoenician woman's daughter, the centurion's servant, the royal official's son, and many people who came from Tyre and Sidon to be healed, and a Samaritan leper.    


I have read the whole chapter.
And it is a massive false prophecy since    "I tell you
the truth, you will not finish
going through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man
comes." did not happen.

Edited by Mahdi The Seeke - 17 November 2012 at 3:23am]]> Sat, 17 Nov 2012 03:17:52 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=170228#170228 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Israelites - the first to receive... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=170221#170221 Author: Caringheart
Subject: 23672
Posted: 16 November 2012 at 11:33pm

Israelites - the first to receive the Word
Christians - second to receive the Word
Muslims - third to receive the Word

Does it matter in what order or what way we receive the Word of God?
Does it really matter what we call ourselves as long as we belong to God?
]]> Fri, 16 Nov 2012 23:33:23 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=170221#170221 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Experiential said; Islam holds... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=170212#170212 Author: Mahdi The Seeke
Subject: 23672
Posted: 16 November 2012 at 12:21pm

Experiential said;
Islam holds no moral
high ground!
At least you agree that the atrocities ordered in the Bible are immoral. As i demonstrated by the Quranic verses i quoted and compared to 1 Samuel 15, islam does have the higher moral ground. ]]> Fri, 16 Nov 2012 12:21:44 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=170212#170212 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Originally posted by Experiential Originally... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=170210#170210 Author: Mahdi The Seeke
Subject: 23672
Posted: 16 November 2012 at 11:50am

Originally posted by Experiential

Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

Experiental said; God ignoring the non Jew is your personal opinion. Yes, the God of the Bible never masterminded the annihilation, genocide, massacre and ethnic cleansing of non israelite nations. I totally made all that up.


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">Yes Mohammad your Prophet was a man of the sword who masterminded the bloody torture and murder of the men of Ukl or Uraynah.


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><FONT face="Times New Roman"><SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>He showed the example when at the at the Battle Trench (also called The Battle of Ahzap or the Seige of Medina.) when he <SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>executed all the adult males of the city. And took the women and children into slavery.


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">And how Muslim are men allowed sex with their slave girls and captured women.


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">Islam holds no moral high ground!


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </o:p>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">What happened to the non Jews God also brought about on the Jewish people through the Assyrians, Babylonians and Romans. So there was no favoritism there.


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><o:p><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </o:p>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">In terms of the Canaanites the Bible is clear in that God was exceedingly patient with them in regards to their idol worship which also involved the abominable practice of sacrificing their children into the fires of their Gods.


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">Genesis 15.16 shows God was watching the Canaanites very closely and waiting for them to change. Also Canaan had a final forty-year countdown as they heard of the events in <?:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:country-region w:st="on">Egypt</st1:country-region>, at the crossing of the <st1:PlaceName w:st="on">Reed</st1:PlaceName> <st1:Place w:st="on">Sea</st1:place>, and what happened to the kings who opposed <st1:country-region w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Israel</st1:place></st1:country-region> along the way.


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">Remember God knew the Canaanite Cults were dangerously contaminating and if this wasn’t controlled the Messianic prophesies through Abraham, Isaac, David and ultimately Jesus The Mesiah would be at risk.


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><o:p><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </o:p>


At least first acknowledge that you accused me falsely by claiming my position is an opinion when you very well know God of the Bible ordered the massacre of whole nations, pregnamt women and sucklings all inclusive.

Second, the fact that the Israelites were subject to subjugation lays bare their lie of being special. Given that the israelites went through cycles of being conqured and conquering others, this is proof they are nothing special.

Third, are you using the Quran to justify the Bible? Or Islam to justify Christianity? Comparing Muhammed SAW battles to the genocide ordered by God of the Bible? FYI, they aretotally different. I will check your response to another post where i compared verses from Quran and Bible about war.

Fourth, God knew how contaminating the canaanites were? Seriously? I use the following analogy only to make you realise how disgusting, racist and 'some other words i cannot think of right now' that statement is. THAT sounds like something Hitler would come up with. Internalise this before replying.
Ps 'God knew......'? Congratulations on being able to read God's mind.

Edited by Mahdi The Seeke - 16 November 2012 at 12:04pm]]> Fri, 16 Nov 2012 11:50:10 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=170210#170210 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Experiential said;My Reply There... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=170209#170209 Author: Mahdi The Seeke
Subject: 23672
Posted: 16 November 2012 at 11:09am

Experiential said;My Reply There is much I do not
understand about God.
Good that at least you are disturbed by these massacres which never sparee women, children and sucklings.
And you also first answered my question before asking one of your own as it should be.
Experiential said;
Am I right to say you
supported the actions of
Mohammad in his war
mongering? Which side would you have
taken in all the civil wars and
jihads throughout your Muslim
“Golden Era” and beyond?
Do you think you might have
been awarded a slave girl for your jihadi efforts?
QURAN2:190 Fight in the way of Allah
against those who fight
against you, but begin not
hostilities. Lo! Allah loveth not
aggressors. 2:191 And slay them wherever ye
find them, and drive them out
of the places whence they
drove you out, for persecution
is worse than slaughter. And
fight not with them at the Inviolable Place of Worship
until they first attack you
there, but if they attack you
(there) then slay them. Such is
the reward of disbelievers. 2:192 But if they desist, then lo! Allah
is Forgiving, Merciful. 2:193 And fight them until
persecution is no more, and
religion is for Allah. But if they
desist, then let there be no
hostility except against
wrong-doers.

VS

1 Samuel 15 King James Version (KJV) Samuel also said unto Saul, The LORD sent me to anoint
thee to be king over his
people, over Israel: now
therefore hearken thou unto
the voice of the words of the
LORD. 2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which
Amalek did to Israel, how he
laid wait for him in the way,
when he came up from Egypt. 3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that
they have, and spare them not;
but slay both man and
woman, infant and suckling,
ox and sheep, camel and ass.

Experiential, now please tell me honestly if you are able to bring yourself to do it. Which is more merciful and sensible based on the verses quoted above. Bible or Quran?]]> Fri, 16 Nov 2012 11:09:49 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=170209#170209 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Originally posted by Caringheart Originally... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=170205#170205 Author: Mahdi The Seeke
Subject: 23672
Posted: 16 November 2012 at 10:23am

Originally posted by Caringheart


Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

Luke was not there.
<p ="chapter-1"><span id="en-KJV-24895" ="text Luke-1-1"><span ="chapternum">1 </span>Forasmuch
as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those
things which are most surely believed among us,</span>

<span id="en-KJV-24896" ="text Luke-1-2"><sup ="versenum">2 Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word;</span>

<span id="en-KJV-24897" ="text Luke-1-3"><sup ="versenum">3 It
seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things
from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent
Theophilus,</span>

<span id="en-KJV-24898" ="text Luke-1-4"><sup ="versenum">4 That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.</span>


Luke was an eye witness? Yes or no.]]> Fri, 16 Nov 2012 10:23:16 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=170205#170205 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Originally posted by Experiential&lt;P... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=170200#170200 Author: Mahdi The Seeke
Subject: 23672
Posted: 16 November 2012 at 9:21am

Originally posted by Experiential

<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><FONT face="Times New Roman">Mahdi Said<?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">In short, you have no problem with Jesus insulting a woman in need for the simple fault of being a non Jew. To each their own.


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><FONT face="Times New Roman">My Reply<o:p></o:p>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">In short you have no problem with the Quran referring to non Muslims as dogs, donkeys, pigs, beasts and apes.


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><o:p><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </o:p>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">Secondly who says it was an insult?<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>The actual word in the Greek is “puppies”. The image Jesus has chosen is an image of endearment, not insult. The picture of supper-time, with little kids at the table, and their pet puppies at their feet, maybe tugging on their robes for food or play. The puppies, dear to the children and probably so too to Jesus.


1.Answer my question.
2.Reinterpret your own version of the Bible to justify your translation otherwise you are making baseless claims. Have you even read the verse?
Matthew 15:26
King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.) But he answered and said, It is not meet to take the children's bread, and to cast it to dogs.

Please, if you want to engage in serious discussions, desist from making such baseless arguments. DOG is the word.
How are dogs described in old testament. One example

For dogs have surrounded me;
a gang of evildoers has closed
in on me; they pierced my
hands and my feet. Psalm 22:16

A gang of evildoers.]]> Fri, 16 Nov 2012 09:21:47 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=170200#170200 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Good and accurate reply, Caringheart.... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=170176#170176 Author: Larry
Subject: 23672
Posted: 15 November 2012 at 11:44pm

Good and accurate reply, Caringheart. Maybe if more Muslims took the time to read the Bible instead of trying to discredit it at every turn, they might come to know the Love and Salvation of Jesus Christ the True and Everlasting Messiah, at One with the God the Father and God the Holy Spirit.

Originally posted by Caringheart


Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

Luke was not there.
<p ="chapter-1"><span id="en-KJV-24895" ="text Luke-1-1"><span ="chapternum">1 </span>Forasmuch
as many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of those
things which are most surely believed among us,</span>

<span id="en-KJV-24896" ="text Luke-1-2"><sup ="versenum">2 Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word;</span>

<span id="en-KJV-24897" ="text Luke-1-3"><sup ="versenum">3 It
seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things
from the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellent
Theophilus,</span>

<span id="en-KJV-24898" ="text Luke-1-4"><sup ="versenum">4 That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.</span>

]]> Thu, 15 Nov 2012 23:44:24 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=170176#170176 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Originally posted by Mahdi... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=170165#170165 Author: Caringheart
Subject: 23672
Posted: 15 November 2012 at 11:46am

Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke


Luke was not there.


1 Forasmuchas many have taken in hand to set forth in order a declaration of thosethings which are most surely believed among us,

2 Even as they delivered them unto us, which from the beginning were eyewitnesses, and ministers of the word;

3 Itseemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all thingsfrom the very first, to write unto thee in order, most excellentTheophilus,

4 That thou mightest know the certainty of those things, wherein thou hast been instructed.


]]> Thu, 15 Nov 2012 11:46:01 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=170165#170165 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Mahdi, you need to read the whole... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=170152#170152 Author: Salaam_Erin
Subject: 23672
Posted: 15 November 2012 at 6:41am

Mahdi, you need to read the whole of Jesus' lecture to the disciples in Matthew 10.  In verses 5-6 Jesus tells them as He is sending them out to represent them in His own mission, not to go into Gentile territories or Samaritan towns but the lost sheep of Israel.  This is with reference to geography then.  He therefore wants them to stick to Judaea and Galilee.  However, He goes on to warn them about the long term future of their mission.  In verse 17 He then warns the disciples that many Jews will reject them and that they will be expelled from the synagogue.  In verse 18 He then says they will go out to the Gentiles.  "On my account you will be brought before governors and kings as witnesses to them and to the Gentiles."  You see, you have to consider what Jesus' preaching and teaching mission was about.  It was about to get the Jews back to obeying the Torah and proclaiming the Kingdom of God and the New Covenant.  Then, the Jews were to go out to the Gentiles.  In Matthew 10 Jesus sends them on a training mission to Jews only, but warns them that in the future they will be persecuted, driven out of synagogues and end up before governors and kings and be witnesses to them and to the Gentiles.  That doesn't mean that the mission to the Jews is over though.  For Jesus goes on to say in verse 23, "I tell you the truth, you will not finish going through the cities of Israel before the Son of Man comes."

At the end of His mission, as He is about to Ascend into Heaven, on more than one occasion Jesus then gives His disciples that wider mission as predicted in verse 18 which went beyond the training programme of verses 5-6.  Look at Matthew 28:18-20 and Acts 1:6-9.  After all, Jesus did heal the Syro-Phoenician woman's daughter, the centurion's servant, the royal official's son, and many people who came from Tyre and Sidon to be healed, and a Samaritan leper.    ]]> Thu, 15 Nov 2012 06:41:58 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=170152#170152 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Mahi Said Am i right to say that... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=170142#170142 Author: Experiential
Subject: 23672
Posted: 15 November 2012 at 2:18am

Mahi Said

Am i right to say that you think the massacres of the nations in canaan were fully justified?

 

My Reply

There is much I do not understand about God.

Am I right to say you supported the actions of Mohammad in his war mongering?  

Which side would you have taken in all the civil wars and jihads throughout your Muslim “Golden Era” and beyond?

Do you think you might have been awarded a slave girl for your jihadi efforts?

]]> Thu, 15 Nov 2012 02:18:59 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=170142#170142 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Originally posted by Mahdi The... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=170141#170141 Author: Experiential
Subject: 23672
Posted: 15 November 2012 at 2:16am

Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

Experiental said;
God ignoring the non Jew is
your personal opinion.

Yes, the God of the Bible never masterminded the annihilation, genocide, massacre and ethnic cleansing of non israelite nations. I totally made all that up.

Yes Mohammad your Prophet was a man of the sword who masterminded the bloody torture and murder of the men of Ukl or Uraynah.

 He showed the example when at the at the Battle Trench (also called The Battle of Ahzap or the Seige of Medina.) when he  executed all the adult males of the city. And took the women and children into slavery.

And how Muslim are men allowed sex with their slave girls and captured women.

Islam holds no moral high ground!

 

What happened to the non Jews God also brought about on the Jewish people through the Assyrians, Babylonians and Romans. So there was no favoritism there.

 

In terms of the Canaanites the Bible is clear in that God was exceedingly patient with them in regards to their idol worship which also involved the abominable practice of sacrificing their children into the fires of their Gods.

Genesis 15.16 shows God was watching the Canaanites very closely and waiting for them to change. Also Canaan had a final forty-year countdown as they heard of the events in Egypt, at the crossing of the Reed Sea, and what happened to the kings who opposed Israel along the way.

Remember God knew the Canaanite Cults were dangerously contaminating and if this wasn’t controlled the Messianic prophesies through Abraham, Isaac, David and ultimately Jesus The Mesiah would be at risk.

 

]]> Thu, 15 Nov 2012 02:16:42 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=170141#170141 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Mahdi Said In short, you have... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=170140#170140 Author: Experiential
Subject: 23672
Posted: 15 November 2012 at 2:14am

Mahdi Said

In short, you have no problem with Jesus insulting a woman in need for the simple fault of being a non Jew. To each their own.

My Reply

In short you have no problem with the Quran referring to non Muslims as dogs, donkeys, pigs, beasts and apes.

 

Secondly who says it was an insult?  The actual word in the Greek is “puppies”. The image Jesus has chosen is an image of endearment, not insult. The picture of supper-time, with little kids at the table, and their pet puppies at their feet, maybe tugging on their robes for food or play. The puppies, dear to the children and probably so too to Jesus.

]]> Thu, 15 Nov 2012 02:14:20 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=170140#170140 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Originally posted by Caringheart Originally... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=170117#170117 Author: Mahdi The Seeke
Subject: 23672
Posted: 14 November 2012 at 6:33am

Originally posted by Caringheart


Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

Jesus was sent to the Israelites just like all the Israelite prophets before him. Read my previous posts to see the evidence i have presented for my point of view.
and so?What does this mean to you, that Jesus does not lead gentiles to God?who were the people who listened to Jesus and learned from him?the gentiles.the Jews rejected Him._____________________24 And he said, Verily I say unto you, No prophet is accepted in his own country.25 But I tell you of a truth, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elijah, when the heaven was s*****p three years and six months, when great famine was throughout all the land;26 But unto none of them was Elijah sent, save unto <span id="en-NIV-25090" ="text Luke-4-26"><span ="woj">Zarephath</span></span>, a city of Sidon, unto a woman that was a widow.27 And many lepers were in Israel in the time of Elisha the prophet; and none of them was cleansed, saving Naaman the Syrian. (Luke 4) and also Mark 6:4; But Jesus, said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house._____________________

If you know Jesus was sent to Israelites and you a non israelite want to follow him, it is up to you.]]> Wed, 14 Nov 2012 06:33:46 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=170117#170117 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Originally posted by CaringheartLuke... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=170115#170115 Author: Mahdi The Seeke
Subject: 23672
Posted: 14 November 2012 at 6:15am

Originally posted by Caringheart

Luke 2:3230 For mine eyes have seen thy salvation,31 Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people;32 A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.__________________________Was it not true, and did it not come to pass?that Jesus was a light unto the gentiles and the glory of Israel.Was Luke not making a record of things being spoken of at that time?

Luke was not there.]]> Wed, 14 Nov 2012 06:15:24 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=170115#170115 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Luke 2:3230 For mine eyes have... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=170091#170091 Author: Caringheart
Subject: 23672
Posted: 13 November 2012 at 2:46pm

Luke 2:32
30 For mine eyes have seen thy salvation,
31 Which thou hast prepared before the face of all people;
32 A light to lighten the Gentiles, and the glory of thy people Israel.
__________________________

Was it not true, and did it not come to pass?
that Jesus was a light unto the gentiles and the glory of Israel.

Was Luke not making a record of things being spoken of at that time?]]> Tue, 13 Nov 2012 14:46:28 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=170091#170091 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Originally posted by Experiential Originally... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=170053#170053 Author: Mahdi The Seeke
Subject: 23672
Posted: 12 November 2012 at 2:39pm

Originally posted by Experiential

Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

Experiential said; My Reply You seem to think God has no regard for non Jewish peoples. That is not the case. Where does the “thorn in the side” thing come from ? While reading the following Bible quotes,please keep in mind that according to the trinity, Jesus=God and he existed since the beginning of time. Witness Jesus love and mercy. 1. [/B1 Samuel 15 King James Version (KJV) Samuel also said unto Saul, The LORD sent me to anoint thee to be king over his people, over Israel: now therefore hearken thou unto the voice of the words of the LORD. 2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. 3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling ox and sheep, camel and ass. Sucklings? Commanded by Jesus? Enough said. Besides, seems like a tribal war of revenge.' they treated our ancestors badly when we were weak. Now that were are strong, let us take vengeance'. And what a savage vengeance. 2. NUMBERS 21 gives an account of a sequence of massacres supported by Jesus. Whole tribes wiped out and their lands taken. Is it only Israelites who have a right to live? 3.Conquest of Canaan. Did Jesus tell the tribes settled there that the land was reserved for Israel? Did Jesus ask them to leave and they refused? Did Jesus have to 'give' the Israelites land already occupied? Could he not have reserved the land for them while they were enslaved? Did the tribes take the land forcefully from Israel? Did the tribes attack Israel in the wilderness or were the Israelites the invaders? Wars of israel were tribal wars. When they were strong, they conquered other lands and when they were weak they were conquered, just like many civilisations in history. They self-styled themselves as the chosen people of the the Creator of the world. If they are correct, then Jesus was very tribalistic indeed. I hope you can now see how much Jesus loved gentiles from the time Israel as a nation was created.

<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><O:P><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"> <FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">Hello Mahdi


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">You raise a good question. However remember justice, life and death ultimately belong to God. One day all will be known and all tears will cease.


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><O:P><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </O:P>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">Bear in mind ,what happened to the Canaanites, God also brought about on the Jewish people through the Assyrians, Babylonians and Romans. So there was no favoritism there.


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><O:P><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </O:P>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">In terms of the Canaanites the Bible is clear in that God was exceedingly patient with them in regards to their idol worship which also involved the abominable practice of sacrificing their children into the fires of their Gods.


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">Genesis 15.16 shows God was watching the Canaanites very closely and waiting for them to change. Also Canaan had a final forty-year countdown as they heard of the events in <ST1:COUNTRY-REGIoN w:st="on">Egypt</ST1:COUNTRY-REGIoN>, at the crossing of the <ST1:PLACENAME w:st="on">Reed</ST1:PLACENAME> <ST1:PLACE w:st="on">Sea</ST1:PLACE>, and what happened to the kings who opposed <ST1:COUNTRY-REGIoN w:st="on"><ST1:PLACE w:st="on">Israel</ST1:PLACE></ST1:COUNTRY-REGIoN> along the way.


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><O:P><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </O:P>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">Also remember God knew the Canaanite Cults were dangerously contaminating and if this wasn’t controlled the Messianic prophesies through Abraham, Isaac, David and ultimately Jesus The Mesiah would be at risk.


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><O:P><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </O:P>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">Also Islam holds no moral high ground!


Mohammad was a man of the sword. <FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">For example Muhammad’s bloody torture and murder of the men of Ukl or Uraynah.

<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><O:P><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </O:P>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">Or how Muslims fought the Jewish Quraysh tribe at the Battle Trench (also called The Battle of<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Ahzap or the Seige of Medina.) and after winning, the prophet executed all the adult males of the city. Muslim sources put the number of the Jewish men who were beheaded in one day anywhere between 600 to 900. The women and children were divided up among the Islamic warriors and enslaved.


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><O:P><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </O:P>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">Or how about Muslim men allowed sex with their slave girls and captured women. Sura 70:22-30: and 23:5,6:<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>33:50


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><O:P><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </O:P>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><O:P><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </O:P>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><O:P><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </O:P>


Am i right to say that you think the massacres of the nations in canaan were fully justified?

Edited by Mahdi The Seeke - 12 November 2012 at 2:43pm]]> Mon, 12 Nov 2012 14:39:27 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=170053#170053 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Originally posted by Mahdi... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=170007#170007 Author: Caringheart
Subject: 23672
Posted: 11 November 2012 at 1:05pm

Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke


Jesus was sent to the Israelites just like all the Israelite prophets before him. Read my previous posts to see the evidence i have presented for my point of view.


and so?
What does this mean to you, that Jesus does not lead gentiles to God?
who were the people who listened to Jesus and learned from him?
the gentiles.
the Jews rejected Him.
_____________________

24 And he said, Verily I say unto you, No prophet is accepted in his own country.

25 But I tell you of a truth, many widows were in Israel in the days of Elijah, when the heaven was s*****p three years and six months, when great famine was throughout all the land;
26 But unto none of them was Elijah sent, save unto Zarephath, a city of Sidon, unto a woman that was a widow.

27 And many lepers were in Israel in the time of Elisha the prophet; and none of them was cleansed, saving Naaman the Syrian.  (Luke 4)

and also Mark 6:4; But Jesus, said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, but in his own country, and among his own kin, and in his own house.
_____________________

]]> Sun, 11 Nov 2012 13:05:29 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=170007#170007 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Experiental said; God ignoring... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=169995#169995 Author: Mahdi The Seeke
Subject: 23672
Posted: 11 November 2012 at 1:08am

Experiental said;
God ignoring the non Jew is
your personal opinion.

Yes, the God of the Bible never masterminded the annihilation, genocide, massacre and ethnic cleansing of non israelite nations. I totally made all that up. ]]> Sun, 11 Nov 2012 01:08:01 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=169995#169995 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Originally posted by Experiential Originally... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=169994#169994 Author: Mahdi The Seeke
Subject: 23672
Posted: 11 November 2012 at 12:56am

Originally posted by Experiential

Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

Your imagination can take you any where you let it go depending on what a person did or did not do, did think or did not think, or did say or did not say. Not to mention your judgment of it. And in regards to understanding Jesus words and actions, understanding can be an evolving thing. Eventually Peter was beaten, imprisoned and martyred for his faith. A coward ? No. I was only expressing my perspective. If Bernard Madoff was released from prison and you chose to trust him with your miney, that would be your liberty. In my case, i would not trust Peter after he denied Jesus after emphatically declaring his loyalty to the death. Mahdi Said Can you first tell me where in the scripture Jesus' claim in Luke 24:46-48 is found? My Reply The Book of Acts. Yes. Jesus was quoting from the book of Acts.    My Reply You seem to think God has no regard for non Jewish peoples. That is not the case. Where does the “thorn in the side” thing come from ? If you read the Old Testament (Genesis), before Jacob and Moses when the Israelite people and Jewish religion originated, you will read about Gods love and blessing on all mankind. Plus even after Moses there are many examples of Gods blessing on non Jewish people. eg. Abraham. Moving into the New Testament it is clear that “many who are first will be last and many who are last will be first” (Mark 10.31) and Jesus was criticized severely by Jewish people for praising gentiles over the Jews.Ultimately non Jews will be judged in mercy and fairness according to their conscience. Do you have trouble in Jesus using the noun dog? The actual word in the Greek is “puppies”. There was no luck about this woman involved being blessed. It was based on her faith which Jesus saw. The image Jesus has chosen is an image of endearment, not insult. The picture of supper-time, with little kids at the table, and their pet puppies at their feet, maybe tugging on their robes for food or play. The puppies, dear to the children and probably so too to Jesus. Yes. Jesus used 'dog' in a totally non derogatory way. I am sure you would not take offence if i refered to you in the same way, especially when you come to beg me for help?

<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">Firstly she was not begging. She had a power and authority in terms of her faith that Jesus recognized. Would I take offence if my people were referred to as “puppies”? If there were puppies playing around my feet. Maybe, maybe not? <SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> A</SPAN>lot of it depends on the wider context of that situation and the culture of the day.


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><O:P><SPAN style="TEXT-DECORATION: none"><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </SPAN></O:P>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">Also be aware of what your Quran says about “non believers’ For example -


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><O:P><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </O:P>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><I style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal"><FONT face="Times New Roman">Those who incurred the curse of God And His wrath, those of whom some He transformed into <B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal">apes and swine..." [S. 5:60]<O:P></O:P>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><I style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal"><O:P><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </O:P>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><I style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal"><FONT face="Times New Roman">His similitude is that of a <B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal">dog; if you attack Him, he lolls out his tongue, or if you leave him alone, He (still) lolls out his tongue. <O:P></O:P>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><I style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal"><O:P><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </O:P>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><I style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal"><FONT face="Times New Roman">For the <B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal">worst of beasts in the sight of God are the deaf and the dumb, - those who understand not. [S. 8:22]<O:P></O:P>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><I style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal"><O:P><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </O:P>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><I style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal"><FONT face="Times New Roman">For the <B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal">worst of beasts in the sight of God are those who reject Him: They will not believe. [S. 8:55]<O:P></O:P>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><I style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal"><O:P><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </O:P>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><I style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal"><FONT face="Times New Roman">The similitude of those Who were charged With the (obligations of the) Mosaic Law, But who subsequently failed in those (obligations) is That of an<B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"> ASS which carries huge tomes.<O:P></O:P>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><O:P><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </O:P>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><FONT face="Times New Roman">Not very flattering ! <SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><O:P><SPAN style="TEXT-DECORATION: none"><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </SPAN></O:P>


In short, you have no problem with Jesus insulting a woman in need for the simple fault of being a non Jew. To each their own.]]> Sun, 11 Nov 2012 00:56:18 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=169994#169994 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Originally posted by Larry Originally... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=169993#169993 Author: Mahdi The Seeke
Subject: 23672
Posted: 11 November 2012 at 12:44am

Originally posted by Larry

Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

Larry said;
Also,
Jesus was not born until cenruries after the Books of
Samuel and Numbers were
written, so I don't see how
he could have "supported"
any of the Biblical examples
you provided. Your complete misunderstanding of the
Doctrine of the Trinity is
painfully obvious.

So, before Jesus was born, 'God' was an incomplete bi-unity of two, then the Father sent the Holy Spirit to make Mary 'Mother of God' conceive and 'God' was completed when Jesus was born?


Mahdi,

   The Qur'an completely misrepresents the doctrine of the Trinity. The author of Sura 5:116 mistakenly thought that Christians worshipped three gods; the Father, The Mother (Mary) and the Son (Jesus). But Christians don't worship this doctrine of the Trinity at all. There was a heretical sect of Christianity called the Choloridians, who had a concept of the Trinity which included Mary, who would have been born in Arabia during the time of Muhammad. They are possibly the source for this obvious error.

   But even the Qur'an asserts that Mary conceived Jesus through the intercession of Allah, who only has to say "Be" and it is. But Mary was never part of the Holy Trinity, Mary, who was blessed, but was not God.

   The Bible also teaches that Jesus was conceived by Mary through the intercession of God Himself. When Jesus was born, one of His names was Em-man-u-el, which means "God with us." There are many prophecies made centuries earlier concerning the coming of the Messiah in the Old Testament, and even named the place, Bethlehem, where He was to be born, which was where Jesus WAS born. All of the prophets of the Bible made prophecies that all were fulfilled later by Jesus in the New Testament. And ALL the prophets were named, but there was NEVER a prophecy concerning a "prophet" to come who was named "Muhammad" or "Ahmed" or any other name like that. Why would the Bible name all the prophets, accurately, but be completely silent on the subject of the "seal of the prophets" to come? Because there were no further "prophets" after Jesus, Muhammad never made any specific prophecies at all, the Biblical standard for being a true prophet.

   You, as well as some other Muslims continue to believe that the Trinity consisted of three separate "gods." God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, are all of one substance, "they" are God. There is only one God.

Larry

You did not even answer my question.]]> Sun, 11 Nov 2012 00:44:03 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=169993#169993 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Originally posted by Mahdi The... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=169945#169945 Author: Experiential
Subject: 23672
Posted: 09 November 2012 at 7:20pm

Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

Your imagination can take you any where you let it go depending on what a person did or did not do, did think or did not think, or did say or did not say. Not to mention your judgment of it.

And in regards to understanding Jesus words and actions, understanding can be an evolving thing.

Eventually Peter was beaten, imprisoned and martyred for his faith. A coward ? No.

I was only expressing my perspective. If Bernard Madoff was released from prison and you chose to trust him with your miney, that would be your liberty. In my case, i would not trust Peter after he denied Jesus after emphatically declaring his loyalty to the death.

Mahdi Said

Can you first tell me where in the scripture Jesus' claim in Luke 24:46-48 is found?

My Reply

The Book of Acts.
Yes. Jesus was quoting from the book of Acts.   

My Reply

You seem to think God has no regard for non Jewish peoples. That is not the case. Where does the “thorn in the side” thing come from ?

If you read the Old Testament (Genesis), before Jacob and Moses when the Israelite people and Jewish religion originated, you will read about Gods love and blessing on all mankind.

Plus even after Moses there are many examples of Gods blessing on non Jewish people. eg. Abraham.

Moving into the New Testament it is clear that “many who are first will be last and many who are last will be first” (Mark 10.31) and Jesus was criticized severely by Jewish people for praising gentiles over the Jews.Ultimately non Jews will be judged in mercy and fairness according to their conscience.

Do you have trouble in Jesus using the noun dog? The actual word in the Greek is “puppies”. There was no luck about this woman involved being blessed. It was based on her faith which Jesus saw.

The image Jesus has chosen is an image of endearment, not insult. The picture of supper-time, with little kids at the table, and their pet puppies at their feet, maybe tugging on their robes for food or play. The puppies, dear to the children and probably so too to Jesus.

Yes. Jesus used 'dog' in a totally non derogatory way. I am sure you would not take offence if i refered to you in the same way, especially when you come to beg me for help?

Firstly she was not begging. She had a power and authority in terms of her faith that Jesus recognized. Would I take offence if my people were referred to as “puppies”? If there were puppies playing around my feet. Maybe, maybe not?  Alot of it depends on the wider context of that situation and the culture of the day.

 

Also be aware of what your Quran says about “non believers’ For example -

 

Those who incurred the curse of God And His wrath, those of whom some He transformed into apes and swine..." [S. 5:60]

 

His similitude is that of a dog; if you attack Him, he lolls out his tongue, or if you leave him alone, He (still) lolls out his tongue.

 

For the worst of beasts in the sight of God are the deaf and the dumb, - those who understand not. [S. 8:22]

 

For the worst of beasts in the sight of God are those who reject Him: They will not believe. [S. 8:55]

 

The similitude of those Who were charged With the (obligations of the) Mosaic Law, But who subsequently failed in those (obligations) is That of an ASS which carries huge tomes.

 

Not very flattering !  



Edited by Experiential - 12 November 2012 at 2:11am]]> Fri, 09 Nov 2012 19:20:16 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=169945#169945 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Originally posted by Mahdi The... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=169944#169944 Author: Experiential
Subject: 23672
Posted: 09 November 2012 at 7:16pm

Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

Experiential said;
My Reply

You seem to think God has no regard for non Jewish peoples. That is not the case. Where does the “thorn in the side” thing come from ?

While reading the following Bible quotes,please keep in mind that according to the trinity, Jesus=God and he existed since the beginning of time. Witness Jesus love and mercy.

1. [/B1 Samuel 15 King James Version (KJV) Samuel also said unto Saul, The LORD sent me to anoint thee to be king over his people, over Israel: now therefore hearken thou unto the voice of the words of the LORD. 2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. 3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling ox and sheep, camel and ass.
Sucklings? Commanded by Jesus? Enough said.
Besides, seems like a tribal war of revenge.' they treated our ancestors badly when we were weak. Now that were are strong, let us take vengeance'. And what a savage vengeance.

2. NUMBERS 21 gives an account of a sequence of massacres supported by Jesus. Whole tribes wiped out and their lands taken. Is it only Israelites who have a right to live?

3.Conquest of Canaan. Did Jesus tell the tribes settled there that the land was reserved for Israel? Did Jesus ask them to leave and they refused? Did Jesus have to 'give' the Israelites land already occupied? Could he not have reserved the land for them while they were enslaved? Did the tribes take the land forcefully from Israel? Did the tribes attack Israel in the wilderness or were the Israelites the invaders?

Wars of israel were tribal wars. When they were strong, they conquered other lands and when they were weak they were conquered, just like many civilisations in history. They self-styled themselves as the chosen people of the the Creator of the world. If they are correct, then Jesus was very tribalistic indeed.

I hope you can now see how much Jesus loved gentiles from the time Israel as a nation was created.

 Hello Mahdi

You raise a good question. However remember justice, life and death ultimately belong to God. One day all will be known and all tears will cease.

 

Bear in mind ,what happened to the Canaanites, God also brought about on the Jewish people through the Assyrians, Babylonians and Romans. So there was no favoritism there.

 

In terms of the Canaanites the Bible is clear in that God was exceedingly patient with them in regards to their idol worship which also involved the abominable practice of sacrificing their children into the fires of their Gods.

Genesis 15.16 shows God was watching the Canaanites very closely and waiting for them to change. Also Canaan had a final forty-year countdown as they heard of the events in Egypt, at the crossing of the Reed Sea, and what happened to the kings who opposed Israel along the way.

 

Also remember God knew the Canaanite Cults were dangerously contaminating and if this wasn’t controlled the Messianic prophesies through Abraham, Isaac, David and ultimately Jesus The Mesiah would be at risk.

 

Also Islam holds no moral high ground!

Mohammad was a man of the sword. For example Muhammad’s bloody torture and murder of the men of Ukl or Uraynah.

 

Or how Muslims fought the Jewish Quraysh tribe at the Battle Trench (also called The Battle of  Ahzap or the Seige of Medina.) and after winning, the prophet executed all the adult males of the city. Muslim sources put the number of the Jewish men who were beheaded in one day anywhere between 600 to 900. The women and children were divided up among the Islamic warriors and enslaved.

 

Or how about Muslim men allowed sex with their slave girls and captured women. Sura 70:22-30: and 23:5,6:  33:50

 

 

 



Edited by Experiential - 09 November 2012 at 7:18pm]]> Fri, 09 Nov 2012 19:16:30 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=169944#169944 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Originally posted by Mahdi The... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=169943#169943 Author: Experiential
Subject: 23672
Posted: 09 November 2012 at 7:07pm

Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

Originally posted by Experiential

<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><FONT face="Times New Roman">Mahdi Said <?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">SO the 'day of judgment' was the day the temple in <?:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Jerusalem</st1:place></st1:City> was destroyed in 70 AD. I guess we are all in heaven now.


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><FONT face="Times New Roman">My Reply<o:p></o:p>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">Judgment began for the Jews in (Mathew 10) leading up to the Roman destruction of the temple in AD 70 (Mathew 24) and leading further to the judgment of the whole world that is still unfolding now. Not complete yet, but unfolding, with its conclusion at The Day of Judgment.


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">Judgment first for the Jew and then later for the non Jew.



Interesting opinion.
I thought we would be discussing points based in reality.
'First to the jew then gentile' is your personal opinion.
'Unfolding judgement' is your personal opinion. Unlike you, i bring up points based on what is written in the Bible. For example;
    Matthew 16:

27 For the Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay every man according to what he has done.

 

God ignoring the non Jew is your personal opinion.

And in terms of quoting scripture I have done so all the way through.

You weren’t even aware of all the scriptures about Gods purpose for the gentiles until I had to post them to you at the beginning of this thread.

You seem to be stuck in the book of Mathew. Have you read any other book than Mathew? You’ve only really moved from Mathew 10 to Mathew 16. Mathew 16 only proves my points. Why not try Mathew 24 or any of the other books.

Unfolding judgment is a biblical fact. Read about Gods unfolding judgment for the Canaanites and Jews in the book of Genesis.

 

]]> Fri, 09 Nov 2012 19:07:41 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=169943#169943 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Originally posted by Mahdi The... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=169923#169923 Author: Larry
Subject: 23672
Posted: 09 November 2012 at 12:45am

Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

Larry said;
Also,
Jesus was not born until cenruries after the Books of
Samuel and Numbers were
written, so I don't see how
he could have "supported"
any of the Biblical examples
you provided. Your complete misunderstanding of the
Doctrine of the Trinity is
painfully obvious.

So, before Jesus was born, 'God' was an incomplete bi-unity of two, then the Father sent the Holy Spirit to make Mary 'Mother of God' conceive and 'God' was completed when Jesus was born?


Mahdi,

   The Qur'an completely misrepresents the doctrine of the Trinity. The author of Sura 5:116 mistakenly thought that Christians worshipped three gods; the Father, The Mother (Mary) and the Son (Jesus). But Christians don't worship this doctrine of the Trinity at all. There was a heretical sect of Christianity called the Choloridians, who had a concept of the Trinity which included Mary, who would have been born in Arabia during the time of Muhammad. They are possibly the source for this obvious error.

   But even the Qur'an asserts that Mary conceived Jesus through the intercession of Allah, who only has to say "Be" and it is. But Mary was never part of the Holy Trinity, Mary, who was blessed, but was not God.

   The Bible also teaches that Jesus was conceived by Mary through the intercession of God Himself. When Jesus was born, one of His names was Em-man-u-el, which means "God with us." There are many prophecies made centuries earlier concerning the coming of the Messiah in the Old Testament, and even named the place, Bethlehem, where He was to be born, which was where Jesus WAS born. All of the prophets of the Bible made prophecies that all were fulfilled later by Jesus in the New Testament. And ALL the prophets were named, but there was NEVER a prophecy concerning a "prophet" to come who was named "Muhammad" or "Ahmed" or any other name like that. Why would the Bible name all the prophets, accurately, but be completely silent on the subject of the "seal of the prophets" to come? Because there were no further "prophets" after Jesus, Muhammad never made any specific prophecies at all, the Biblical standard for being a true prophet.

   You, as well as some other Muslims continue to believe that the Trinity consisted of three separate "gods." God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit, are all of one substance, "they" are God. There is only one God.

Larry

Edited by Larry - 09 November 2012 at 9:48pm]]> Fri, 09 Nov 2012 00:45:57 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=169923#169923 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Originally posted by CaringheartHi... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=169922#169922 Author: Larry
Subject: 23672
Posted: 09 November 2012 at 12:25am

Originally posted by Caringheart

Hi Larry,I have been trying to get an answer to that question from the beginning.  What point is it that Mahdi wants to make?I've posed questions in the thread with no answers.Does he think that Jesus does not lead gentiles to God?  was one of my questions.???


Caringheart,

   "Mahdi" seems to think that if Jesus had not been born before the writings in the Old Testament that it means that God and the Holy Spirit ONLY existed "together" prior to the birth of Jesus Christ, making it a "Duality" rather than a Trinity. As I said to him, his obvious and complete misunderstanding of the Doctrine of the Trinity is painfully obvious. People like "Mahdi" and SOME other Muslims, continue to insist that the Holy Trinity is composed of three separate gods, which is typical of someone whose religion was born out of Arab paganism and it's 360 idols in the Kaaba (one, the famous "Black Stone" is the only remaining original idol which was worshipped by the pagans in the Kaaba), before the coming of Muhammad. Judaism and Christianity have ALWAYS believed in One and only One God. But Mahdi's literalism prevents his understanding this point.

Larry

Edited by Larry - 09 November 2012 at 9:46pm]]> Fri, 09 Nov 2012 00:25:58 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=169922#169922 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Originally posted by CaringheartHi... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=169919#169919 Author: Mahdi The Seeke
Subject: 23672
Posted: 08 November 2012 at 11:53pm

Originally posted by Caringheart

Hi Larry,I have been trying to get an answer to that question from the beginning. What point is it that Mahdi wants to make?I've posed questions in the thread with no answers.Does he think that Jesus does not lead gentiles to God? was one of my questions.???


Jesus was sent to the Israelites just like all the Israelite prophets before him. Read my previous posts to see the evidence i have presented for my point of view.

Edited by Mahdi The Seeke - 08 November 2012 at 11:54pm]]> Thu, 08 Nov 2012 23:53:38 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=169919#169919 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Larry said; Also, Jesus was not... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=169918#169918 Author: Mahdi The Seeke
Subject: 23672
Posted: 08 November 2012 at 11:03pm

Larry said;
Also,
Jesus was not born until cenruries after the Books of
Samuel and Numbers were
written, so I don't see how
he could have "supported"
any of the Biblical examples
you provided. Your complete misunderstanding of the
Doctrine of the Trinity is
painfully obvious.

So, before Jesus was born, 'God' was an incomplete bi-unity of two, then the Father sent the Holy Spirit to make Mary 'Mother of God' conceive and 'God' was completed when Jesus was born?]]> Thu, 08 Nov 2012 23:03:13 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=169918#169918 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Hi Larry,I have been trying to... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=169913#169913 Author: Caringheart
Subject: 23672
Posted: 08 November 2012 at 7:01pm

Hi Larry,

I have been trying to get an answer to that question from the beginning.  What point is it that Mahdi wants to make?

I've posed questions in the thread with no answers.

Does he think that Jesus does not lead gentiles to God?  was one of my questions.

???
]]> Thu, 08 Nov 2012 19:01:14 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=169913#169913 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Originally posted by Mahdi The... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=169886#169886 Author: Larry
Subject: 23672
Posted: 07 November 2012 at 11:24pm

Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

Experiential said;
My Reply

You seem to think God has no regard for non Jewish peoples. That is not the case. Where does the “thorn in the side” thing come from ?

While reading the following Bible quotes,please keep in mind that according to the trinity, Jesus=God and he existed since the beginning of time. Witness Jesus love and mercy.

1. [/B1 Samuel 15 King James Version (KJV) Samuel also said unto Saul, The LORD sent me to anoint thee to be king over his people, over Israel: now therefore hearken thou unto the voice of the words of the LORD. 2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. 3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling ox and sheep, camel and ass.
Sucklings? Commanded by Jesus? Enough said.
Besides, seems like a tribal war of revenge.' they treated our ancestors badly when we were weak. Now that were are strong, let us take vengeance'. And what a savage vengeance.

2. NUMBERS 21 gives an account of a sequence of massacres supported by Jesus. Whole tribes wiped out and their lands taken. Is it only Israelites who have a right to live?

3.Conquest of Canaan. Did Jesus tell the tribes settled there that the land was reserved for Israel? Did Jesus ask them to leave and they refused? Did Jesus have to 'give' the Israelites land already occupied? Could he not have reserved the land for them while they were enslaved? Did the tribes take the land forcefully from Israel? Did the tribes attack Israel in the wilderness or were the Israelites the invaders?

Wars of israel were tribal wars. When they were strong, they conquered other lands and when they were weak they were conquered, just like many civilisations in history. They self-styled themselves as the chosen people of the the Creator of the world. If they are correct, then Jesus was very tribalistic indeed.

I hope you can now see how much Jesus loved gentiles from the time Israel as a nation was created.


*******************************************************

   Does anyone understand what "Mahdi's" point is supposed to be in his remarks? I sure don't.

   In regard to who God selected to be His "chosen people," it is the Children of Israel, which both the Bible and Qur'an document. Also, Jesus was not born until cenruries after the Books of Samuel and Numbers were written, so I don't see how he could have "supported" any of the Biblical examples you provided. Your complete misunderstanding of the Doctrine of the Trinity is painfully obvious.

Edited by Larry - 07 November 2012 at 11:25pm]]> Wed, 07 Nov 2012 23:24:33 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=169886#169886 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Experiential said; My Reply You... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=169786#169786 Author: Mahdi The Seeke
Subject: 23672
Posted: 05 November 2012 at 1:19am

Experiential said;
My Reply

You seem to think God has no regard for non Jewish peoples. That is not the case. Where does the “thorn in the side” thing come from ?

While reading the following Bible quotes,please keep in mind that according to the trinity, Jesus=God and he existed since the beginning of time. Witness Jesus love and mercy.

1. [/B1 Samuel 15 King James Version (KJV) Samuel also said unto Saul, The LORD sent me to anoint thee to be king over his people, over Israel: now therefore hearken thou unto the voice of the words of the LORD. 2 Thus saith the LORD of hosts, I remember that which Amalek did to Israel, how he laid wait for him in the way, when he came up from Egypt. 3 Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling ox and sheep, camel and ass.
Sucklings? Commanded by Jesus? Enough said.
Besides, seems like a tribal war of revenge.' they treated our ancestors badly when we were weak. Now that were are strong, let us take vengeance'. And what a savage vengeance.

2. NUMBERS 21 gives an account of a sequence of massacres supported by Jesus. Whole tribes wiped out and their lands taken. Is it only Israelites who have a right to live?

3.Conquest of Canaan. Did Jesus tell the tribes settled there that the land was reserved for Israel? Did Jesus ask them to leave and they refused? Did Jesus have to 'give' the Israelites land already occupied? Could he not have reserved the land for them while they were enslaved? Did the tribes take the land forcefully from Israel? Did the tribes attack Israel in the wilderness or were the Israelites the invaders?

Wars of israel were tribal wars. When they were strong, they conquered other lands and when they were weak they were conquered, just like many civilisations in history. They self-styled themselves as the chosen people of the the Creator of the world. If they are correct, then Jesus was very tribalistic indeed.

I hope you can now see how much Jesus loved gentiles from the time Israel as a nation was created.

Edited by Mahdi The Seeke - 07 November 2012 at 3:05am]]> Mon, 05 Nov 2012 01:19:24 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=169786#169786 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Your imagination can take you... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=169784#169784 Author: Mahdi The Seeke
Subject: 23672
Posted: 05 November 2012 at 12:57am

Your imagination can take you any where you let it go depending on what a person did or did not do, did think or did not think, or did say or did not say. Not to mention your judgment of it.

And in regards to understanding Jesus words and actions, understanding can be an evolving thing.

Eventually Peter was beaten, imprisoned and martyred for his faith. A coward ? No.

I was only expressing my perspective. If Bernard Madoff was released from prison and you chose to trust him with your miney, that would be your liberty. In my case, i would not trust Peter after he denied Jesus after emphatically declaring his loyalty to the death.

Mahdi Said

Can you first tell me where in the scripture Jesus' claim in Luke 24:46-48 is found?

My Reply

The Book of Acts.
Yes. Jesus was quoting from the book of Acts.   

My Reply

You seem to think God has no regard for non Jewish peoples. That is not the case. Where does the “thorn in the side” thing come from ?

If you read the Old Testament (Genesis), before Jacob and Moses when the Israelite people and Jewish religion originated, you will read about Gods love and blessing on all mankind.

Plus even after Moses there are many examples of Gods blessing on non Jewish people. eg. Abraham.

Moving into the New Testament it is clear that “many who are first will be last and many who are last will be first” (Mark 10.31) and Jesus was criticized severely by Jewish people for praising gentiles over the Jews.Ultimately non Jews will be judged in mercy and fairness according to their conscience.

Do you have trouble in Jesus using the noun dog? The actual word in the Greek is “puppies”. There was no luck about this woman involved being blessed. It was based on her faith which Jesus saw.

The image Jesus has chosen is an image of endearment, not insult. The picture of supper-time, with little kids at the table, and their pet puppies at their feet, maybe tugging on their robes for food or play. The puppies, dear to the children and probably so too to Jesus.

Yes. Jesus used 'dog' in a totally non derogatory way. I am sure you would not take offence if i refered to you in the same way, especially when you come to beg me for help?

Edited by Mahdi The Seeke - 07 November 2012 at 3:07am]]> Mon, 05 Nov 2012 00:57:02 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=169784#169784 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Originally posted by Experiential&lt;P... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=169778#169778 Author: Mahdi The Seeke
Subject: 23672
Posted: 04 November 2012 at 10:55pm

Originally posted by Experiential

<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><FONT face="Times New Roman">Mahdi Said <?:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p></o:p>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">SO the 'day of judgment' was the day the temple in <?:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><st1:City w:st="on"><st1:place w:st="on">Jerusalem</st1:place></st1:City> was destroyed in 70 AD. I guess we are all in heaven now.


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><B style="mso-bidi-font-weight: normal"><FONT face="Times New Roman">My Reply<o:p></o:p>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">Judgment began for the Jews in (Mathew 10) leading up to the Roman destruction of the temple in AD 70 (Mathew 24) and leading further to the judgment of the whole world that is still unfolding now. Not complete yet, but unfolding, with its conclusion at The Day of Judgment.


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" =Msonormal><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">Judgment first for the Jew and then later for the non Jew.



Interesting opinion.
I thought we would be discussing points based in reality.
'First to the jew then gentile' is your personal opinion.
'Unfolding judgement' is your personal opinion. Unlike you, i bring up points based on what is written in the Bible. For example;
    Matthew 16:

27 For the Son of Man is going to come with his angels in the glory of his Father, and then he will repay every man according to what he has done. ]]> Sun, 04 Nov 2012 22:55:52 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=169778#169778 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Experiential, Mahdi said, &#034;A... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=169775#169775 Author: Larry
Subject: 23672
Posted: 04 November 2012 at 7:11pm

Experiential,

   Mahdi said, "A coward who denies his master can do the same about his master's instructions." What he failed to say was that Jesus TOLD Peter shortly before His arrest that "before the cock crows you will deny me three times." This came true exactly as prophesied, and Peter wept when he realized what he had done.

   Jesus said, at the Last Supper, that the person who would betray Him was dipping his bread into the same bowl as Jesus, and that was Judas. Jesus even told Judas Iscariot that, "What you need to do, do quickly," because He knew that Judas would betray him to His enemies. Judas betrayed Jesus for thirty pieces of silver, as prophesied in Zechariah 12:12-13;

   12. "Then I said to them, "If it is agreeable to you, give me my wages; and if not, refrain." So they weighed out for my wages thirty pieces of silver."

   13. And the Lord said to me, "Throw it to the potter" - that princely price they set on me. So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the Lord for the potter."

   When Judas tried to give back the thirty pieces of silver to the priests they could not accept it because it was "blood money," so they used it to buy the potter's field to bury strangers in.

   It was also this same Peter that, prior to his crucifixion in Rome, said he was not worthy to be crucified as Jesus Christ had been crucified, and they crucified him upside down on the cross.

   Doesn't sound like that much of a coward. A coward would have begged for his life. I don't think there are many people in the world, Mahdi included, who would not lie to save themselves from being killed in a terrible and painful way. It is easy to say you wouldn't do something when you are not in that position to be tested about losing your own life.

   And, this is juast another example of the true prophecies made by Jesus Christ and other true prophets of the Bible. Unfortunately, the "prophet" Muhammad never made any prophecies at all that were later fulfilled exactly as prophesied. That is the Biblical measure of a "true prophet."

Larry

Edited by Larry - 04 November 2012 at 7:31pm]]> Sun, 04 Nov 2012 19:11:00 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=169775#169775 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Mahdi Said A coward (Peter)... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=169743#169743 Author: Experiential
Subject: 23672
Posted: 04 November 2012 at 2:27am

Mahdi Said

A coward (Peter) who denies his master out of fear can do the same about his master's instructions. Since you established Peter, the 'rock' on which the church was built, as a coward, I will not put it beyond him to accept a roman centurion out of fear, just like he denied Jesus out of fear.

And now you are telling me how the other disciples also did not understand Jesus words. If they did not understand themselves, how can they teach others?

Can ANYTHING they teach even be trusted given their lack understanding?

My Reply

Your imagination can take you any where you let it go depending on what a person did or did not do, did think or did not think, or did say or did not say. Not to mention your judgment of it. 

And in regards to understanding Jesus words and actions, understanding can be an evolving thing.

Eventually Peter was beaten, imprisoned and martyred for his faith. A coward ? No.

 

 

Mahdi Said

Can you first tell me where in the scripture Jesus' claim in Luke 24:46-48 is found?

My Reply

The Book of Acts.

 

 

Mahdi Said

And as for Peter, I no longer trust him on account of his cowardice which you very familiar with

My Reply

That’s up to you. But eventually Peter was beaten, imprisoned and martyred for his faith. A coward ? No.

 

 

Mahdi Said

Indeed. First take care of god's chosen people. In the meantime, the gentile riff raff can live in sin , die or whatever. They have been thorns in the side of my people Israel dince the beginning. After all, they are simply dogs who will be lucky to even get crumbs from the master's table.

My Reply

You seem to think God has no regard for non Jewish peoples. That is not the case. Where does the “thorn in the side” thing come from ?

If you read the Old Testament (Genesis), before Jacob and Moses when the Israelite people and Jewish religion originated, you will read about Gods love and blessing on all mankind.

Plus even after Moses there are many examples of Gods blessing on non Jewish people. eg. Abraham.

Moving into the New Testament it is clear that “many who are first will be last and many who are last will be first” (Mark 10.31) and Jesus was criticized severely by Jewish people for praising gentiles over the Jews.Ultimately non Jews will be judged in mercy and fairness according to their conscience.

 Do you have trouble in Jesus using the noun dog? The actual word in the Greek is “puppies”. There was no luck about this woman involved being blessed. It was based on her faith which Jesus saw.

The image Jesus has chosen is an image of endearment, not insult. The picture of supper-time, with little kids at the table, and their pet puppies at their feet, maybe tugging on their robes for food or play. The puppies, dear to the children and probably so too to Jesus.

 

 

 

 

]]> Sun, 04 Nov 2012 02:27:19 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=169743#169743 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Mahdi Said SO the &#039;day... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=169742#169742 Author: Experiential
Subject: 23672
Posted: 04 November 2012 at 2:19am

Mahdi Said

SO the 'day of judgment' was the day the temple in Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD. I guess we are all in heaven now.

My Reply

Judgment began for the Jews in (Mathew 10) leading up to the Roman destruction of the temple in AD 70 (Mathew 24) and leading further to the judgment of the whole world that is still unfolding now. Not complete yet, but unfolding, with its conclusion at The Day of Judgment.

Judgment first for the Jew and then later for the non Jew.

]]> Sun, 04 Nov 2012 02:19:12 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=169742#169742 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Experiential, I agree, Bud,... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=169695#169695 Author: Larry
Subject: 23672
Posted: 02 November 2012 at 3:47pm

Experiential,

I agree, Bud, the "corrupted text" argument used so often on here by some Muslims seeks to explain WHY, when the Old and New Testaments fit together almost seamlessly, the only "holy text" that has serious and deep discrepancies with both the Old and New Testaments, is the Qur'an. Since there is no chance of hiding or suppressing these discrepancies, the only "explanation" for them is that the Jews and Christians CORRUPTED THEIR OWN OLD AND NEW TESTAMENTS, when these Testaments were WRITTEN, and were RECORDED by both Jews and Christians many centuries before the Qur'an ever existed.

   So the ONLY way that these texts could have been "corrupted" was when they were first written down, because if there were discrepancies between the texts of the earliest Old Testament and New Testament texts, they would be glaringly obvious and no amount of "corruption" could conceal those discrepancies and facts.

   I find it disturbing when I see the mental, linguistic and logical contortions some Muslims will go to, to have to try and fit the "revelations" of the Qur'an into existing Jewish and Christian holy texts, and then their "explanations" of the many and varied discrepancies that arise from their efforts.

   The thing that amazes me so much every time I read them, the Biblical "quotes" used by some Muslims to PROVE the holiness and truth of the Qur'an are repeated word-for-word from the texts Old or New Testaments, but, conveniently, when these same texts have discrepancies between them and the Qur'an, they are summarily dismissed as "corrupted" text.

Larry


   
Originally posted by Abu Loren


Originally posted by Larry

Experiential,
   I was amazed at Abu Loren's statements which provided even more evidence of the truths contained in the Injil. It is striking that these various writers of the Injil, without knowing each other and from different times and places, have more agreement between them and less discrepancies in their writings than the single writer of the "revelations" provided in the Qur'an. I thought it was interesting that Abu Loren did not respond to these points but merely left a link to one of his previous answers from another thread that did not answer the questions posed to him. But, as I said above, this is a common tactic used by SOME Muslim writers when faced with uncomfortable realities to which they do not respond.
Larry

Originally posted by Experiential

Originally posted by Larry


   Since, in your statement, NONE of the Injil writers, except perhaps Luke and Paul, EVEN KNEW EACH OTHER and writing in DIFFERENT times and places, it is incredible that all these men should be able to write Gospels that agreed with each other in almost every single detail. THAT is what gives the New Testament it's authority and authenticity.    


Good point Larry. If they wanted to twist the scriptures they would have had to know each other and regular contact to get their stories right.

 

............................................



Edited by Larry - 02 November 2012 at 3:54pm]]> Fri, 02 Nov 2012 15:47:04 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=169695#169695 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Originally posted by LarryExperiential,... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=169673#169673 Author: Abu Loren
Subject: 23672
Posted: 02 November 2012 at 2:55am

Originally posted by Larry

Experiential,
   I was amazed at Abu Loren's statements which provided even more evidence of the truths contained in the Injil. It is striking that these various writers of the Injil, without knowing each other and from different times and places, have more agreement between them and less discrepancies in their writings than the single writer of the "revelations" provided in the Qur'an. I thought it was interesting that Abu Loren did not respond to these points but merely left a link to one of his previous answers from another thread that did not answer the questions posed to him. But, as I said above, this is a common tactic used by SOME Muslim writers when faced with uncomfortable realities to which they do not respond.
Larry

Originally posted by Experiential

Originally posted by Larry


   Since, in your statement, NONE of the Injil writers, except perhaps Luke and Paul, EVEN KNEW EACH OTHER and writing in DIFFERENT times and places, it is incredible that all these men should be able to write Gospels that agreed with each other in almost every single detail. THAT is what gives the New Testament it's authority and authenticity.    


Good point Larry. If they wanted to twist the scriptures they would have had to know each other and regular contact to get their stories right.
 

............................................
]]> Fri, 02 Nov 2012 02:55:53 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=169673#169673 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Experiential, I was amazed at... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=169666#169666 Author: Larry
Subject: 23672
Posted: 01 November 2012 at 10:57pm

Experiential,
   I was amazed at Abu Loren's statements which provided even more evidence of the truths contained in the Injil. It is striking that these various writers of the Injil, without knowing each other and from different times and places, have more agreement between them and less discrepancies in their writings than the single writer of the "revelations" provided in the Qur'an. I thought it was interesting that Abu Loren did not respond to these points but merely left a link to one of his previous answers from another thread that did not answer the questions posed to him. But, as I said above, this is a common tactic used by SOME Muslim writers when faced with uncomfortable realities to which they do not respond.
Larry

Originally posted by Experiential

Originally posted by Larry


   Since, in your statement, NONE of the Injil writers, except perhaps Luke and Paul, EVEN KNEW EACH OTHER and writing in DIFFERENT times and places, it is incredible that all these men should be able to write Gospels that agreed with each other in almost every single detail. THAT is what gives the New Testament it's authority and authenticity.    


Good point Larry. If they wanted to twist the scriptures they would have had to know each other and regular contact to get their stories right.

 



Edited by Larry - 01 November 2012 at 11:06pm]]> Thu, 01 Nov 2012 22:57:02 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=169666#169666 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Abu Loren, I can understand why... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=169665#169665 Author: Larry
Subject: 23672
Posted: 01 November 2012 at 10:50pm

Abu Loren, I can understand why you decided not to answer my points made in reference to YOUR statements. You merely retreat and leave a link to a statement of yours that answers NONE of my points to you. But that is common with some of the Muslim posters here, including yourself, all talk and no reply when faced with inconvenient facts. Larry ]]> Thu, 01 Nov 2012 22:50:46 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=169665#169665 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Originally posted by Abu Loren Originally... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=169648#169648 Author: Experiential
Subject: 23672
Posted: 01 November 2012 at 3:27pm

Originally posted by Abu Loren

Originally posted by Experiential

You asked for contradictions in the Quran so many were provided. Some of your replies were more satisfactory than others.

But with the degree of human interpretation involved there is enough to doubt the Quran being the sacred, literal, perfect, factual and infallible word of God as Muslims claim.

Combine this with the fact that most Muslims don’t even read or speak Arabic and it makes me wonder just how accessible  is “The Word of God”  to mankind.

Most of the contradictions that you provided were silly, even a child would be ashamed to provide them as contradictions.

 

Originally posted by Experiential

All of the other Injil writers such as Mathew, Mark, Luke, John, James and Peter agreed with Paul.

Rubbish. With the possible exception of Luke, who being an assistant to Paul all the others did not even know each other. The writers and their writings also differ in the time in which they wrote.
 
Originally posted by Experiential

I agree. On The Last Day, you, I and the whole world will bow to Jesus. What’s more, He is available to get to know now!

 

 
Christians should not even be quoting Paul because he did not intent for his LETTERS to be included in any canonical Christian works, they are there by accident as somebody decided to include them in the NT. These letters were btw just letters that he sent to different churches encouraging them to not give up and to believe in Jesus as the Christ. His doctrine became popular and all of the rest of the gospels were 'gotten rid of'. So the Trinity doctrine won the race to be the new Christian teaching and all the others were cruelly suppressed by the early church fathers with the backing of the mighty pagan Roman Empire. This mighty Roman Empire is still ruling Christianity from the Vatican even to this day.   
 
IT'S ALSO A SAD FACT THAT YOU HAVE TO RESORT TO WATCHING YOUTUBE VIDEOS LIKE THIS TO GET YOUR INFORMATION FROM.
 

Abu Loren Said

Most of the contradictions that you provided were silly, even a child would be ashamed to provide them as contradictions.

My Reply

Then how do you reply to these silly and childish passages from the Quaran –

 

The stars were created by Allah as missiles to throw at the devils? Sura 37.6-8

 

Or that the Sun sets in a muddy pool. Sura 18:85-86

 

Or in Sura 27:18-19 it records that King Solomon overheard a conversation between ants. This is scientifically impossible as ants use smell, not sound, to communicate and the context of the story indicates that this is not a miracle of Allah.

 

Even if you suggest human interpretation is necessary to answer these because of this need for human interpretation, it

is enough to doubt the Quran being the sacred, literal, perfect, factual and infallible word of God as Muslims claim.

 

Combine this with the fact that most Muslims don’t even read or speak Arabic and it makes me wonder just how accessible is “The Word of God” to mankin

 

Abu Loren Said

Rubbish. With the possible exception of Luke, who being an assistant to Paul all the others did not even know each other. The writers and their writings also differ in the time in which they wrote.

My Reply

How do you know whether they knew each other or not?

What do you base this on ? What is your evidence?

Any way whether they knew each other or not is irrelevant as all of their writings are consistent with each other in themes. For example the death and resurrection of Jesus The Messiah are consistent in them all.

Besides Peter said he knew and supported Paul in one of his letters -

“just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him.”

2Peter 3:15

And if they didn’t know each other, as you say, that just supports my argument in that they could not have colluded with each other to produce a corrupted Injil.

 

 

Abu Loren Said

Christians should not even be quoting Paul because he did not intent for his LETTERS to be included in any canonical Christian works, they are there by accident as somebody decided to include them in the NT.

My Reply

You need to learn how the New Testament was formed.  It took a couple of hundred of years and much scholarly discussion to decide what historical stories and letters made it in.

Scripture is nothing more than God inspired writings whether they be letters or what ever.

All of the writings of the different Injil writers are consistent with each other in themes. For example the theme of the death and resurrection of Jesus The Messiah are consistent in them all.

Besides Peter said he supported Paul in 2Peter 3:15 –

“just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him.”

 

 

Abu Loren Said

These letters were btw just letters that he sent to different churches encouraging them to not give up and to believe in Jesus as the Christ.

His doctrine became popular and all of the rest of the gospels were 'gotten rid of'.

My Reply

Gotten rid of. Oh really. So what did the rest of the gospels say I wonder? What was their doctrine? What would they have been called ? Who would have written them and when ? Who would have got rid of them ? And when and where?

Where is your evidence? All you have is a fancy conspiracy theory with no evidence.

Considering the opposition and enemies early Christians had why is there no record of this conspiracy?

You’ve already tried this corruption argument with the Council of Nicea which has been proven wrong.

 

And don’t forget the Quaran written much later than any ‘supposed’ corruption says the New Testament is true and makes no mention of it being corrupted.

It is He Who has sent down the Book (the Qur'an) to you (Muhammad) with truth, confirming what came before it. And he sent down the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel). Sura 3:3. 

Plus you still hadn’t proven to me where it says in the Quaran the Injil was corrupted. All you have provided was something about monks inventing monasteries in Sura 57.27. Nothing about corruption of the Injil.

In the Quaran it says –

If thou wert in doubt as to what We have revealed unto thee, then ask those who have been reading the book before thee. Surah 10.94

The above recommends you consult Christians. So why don’t you do so ? If the original Torah and Gospel had been corrupted or replaced, would the Qur'an direct Muhammad or Muslims to consult the readers of these Scriptures?

Besides all of the above. Where is your original Quran? You have nothing before Uthman burned all copies for reasons that are highly suspicious and controversial.

 

And the discovery of an early Quran in Sunaa Yemen in 1972 sheds doubt on the orthodox Muslim belief that the Quran, as it has reached us today, is “the perfect, timeless, and unchanging Word of God”.

The Sunaa Quaran discovery shows the Quran has been distorted, perverted, revised, modified and corrected, and textual alterations had taken place over the years purely by Human hands.

The sacred aura surrounding this Holy Scripture of Islam, is gone and the ‘core belief’ of Muslims that the Quran is the eternal, unaltered word of God is now clearly visible as a hoax or falsehood.

Not only this, but the Quranic claim that nobody can alter the words of God is also a fake. Have a read -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sana'a_manuscript

 

 

Abu Loren Said

So the Trinity doctrine won the race to be the new Christian teaching and all the others were cruelly suppressed by the early church fathers with the backing of the mighty pagan Roman Empire. This mighty Roman Empire is still ruling Christianity from the Vatican even to this day.  

My Reply

The Roman Empire ruling Christianity from the Vatican to this day! Really!

You need to learn Church history. The Eastern Syrian, Ethiopian and Egyptian Coptic churches were never under Rome, and the Protestant Churches broke ties with Rome in the 16th century.

The only support you have quoted for your conspiracy theory was the Council of Nicea which I have already proven wrong. So once again where is your evidence?

You need to be more worried about idolatry you practice in  bowing to your Arab pagan rock everyday and trying to kiss it at the Haj.

 

 

Abu Loren Said

IT'S ALSO A SAD FACT THAT YOU HAVE TO RESORT TO WATCHING YOUTUBE VIDEOS LIKE THIS TO GET YOUR INFORMATION FROM.

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kuvB-UDMJ38&feature=related

My Reply

Yes the internet is full of these problems for Muslims. Again it makes me wonder how with the amount of human interpretation involved there enough to doubt the Quran is being the sacred, literal, perfect, factual and infallible word of God as Muslims claim.

Combine this with the fact that most Muslims don’t even read or speak Arabic and it makes me wonder just how accessible is “The Word of God” to mankind.

 

]]> Thu, 01 Nov 2012 15:27:34 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=169648#169648 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Originally posted by Abu Loren Originally... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=169647#169647 Author: Experiential
Subject: 23672
Posted: 01 November 2012 at 3:25pm

Originally posted by Abu Loren

Originally posted by Experiential

You asked for contradictions in the Quran so many were provided. Some of your replies were more satisfactory than others.

But with the degree of human interpretation involved there is enough to doubt the Quran being the sacred, literal, perfect, factual and infallible word of God as Muslims claim.

Combine this with the fact that most Muslims don’t even read or speak Arabic and it makes me wonder just how accessible  is “The Word of God”  to mankind.

Most of the contradictions that you provided were silly, even a child would be ashamed to provide them as contradictions.

 

Originally posted by Experiential

All of the other Injil writers such as Mathew, Mark, Luke, John, James and Peter agreed with Paul.

Rubbish. With the possible exception of Luke, who being an assistant to Paul all the others did not even know each other. The writers and their writings also differ in the time in which they wrote.
 
Originally posted by Experiential

I agree. On The Last Day, you, I and the whole world will bow to Jesus. What’s more, He is available to get to know now!

 

 
Christians should not even be quoting Paul because he did not intent for his LETTERS to be included in any canonical Christian works, they are there by accident as somebody decided to include them in the NT. These letters were btw just letters that he sent to different churches encouraging them to not give up and to believe in Jesus as the Christ. His doctrine became popular and all of the rest of the gospels were 'gotten rid of'. So the Trinity doctrine won the race to be the new Christian teaching and all the others were cruelly suppressed by the early church fathers with the backing of the mighty pagan Roman Empire. This mighty Roman Empire is still ruling Christianity from the Vatican even to this day.   
 
IT'S ALSO A SAD FACT THAT YOU HAVE TO RESORT TO WATCHING YOUTUBE VIDEOS LIKE THIS TO GET YOUR INFORMATION FROM.
 

Abu Loren Said

Most of the contradictions that you provided were silly, even a child would be ashamed to provide them as contradictions.

My Reply

Then how do you reply to these silly and childish passages from the Quaran –

 

The stars were created by Allah as missiles to throw at the devils? Sura 37.6-8

 

Or that the Sun sets in a muddy pool. Sura 18:85-86

 

Or in Sura 27:18-19 it records that King Solomon overheard a conversation between ants. This is scientifically impossible as ants use smell, not sound, to communicate and the context of the story indicates that this is not a miracle of Allah.

 

Even if you suggest human interpretation is necessary to answer these because of this need for human interpretation, it

is enough to doubt the Quran being the sacred, literal, perfect, factual and infallible word of God as Muslims claim.

 

Combine this with the fact that most Muslims don’t even read or speak Arabic and it makes me wonder just how accessible is “The Word of God” to mankin

 

Abu Loren Said

Rubbish. With the possible exception of Luke, who being an assistant to Paul all the others did not even know each other. The writers and their writings also differ in the time in which they wrote.

My Reply

How do you know whether they knew each other or not?

What do you base this on ? What is your evidence?

Any way whether they knew each other or not is irrelevant as all of their writings are consistent with each other in themes. For example the death and resurrection of Jesus The Messiah are consistent in them all.

Besides Peter said he knew and supported Paul in one of his letters -

“just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him.”

2Peter 3:15

And if they didn’t know each other, as you say, that just supports my argument in that they could not have colluded with each other to produce a corrupted Injil.

 

 

Abu Loren Said

Christians should not even be quoting Paul because he did not intent for his LETTERS to be included in any canonical Christian works, they are there by accident as somebody decided to include them in the NT.

My Reply

You need to learn how the New Testament was formed.  It took a couple of hundred of years and much scholarly discussion to decide what historical stories and letters made it in.

Scripture is nothing more than God inspired writings whether they be letters or what ever.

All of the writings of the different Injil writers are consistent with each other in themes. For example the theme of the death and resurrection of Jesus The Messiah are consistent in them all.

Besides Peter said he supported Paul in 2Peter 3:15 –

“just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him.”

 

Abu Loren Said

These letters were btw just letters that he sent to different churches encouraging them to not give up and to believe in Jesus as the Christ.

His doctrine became popular and all of the rest of the gospels were 'gotten rid of'.

My Reply

Gotten rid of. Oh really. So what did the rest of the gospels say I wonder? What was their doctrine? What would they have been called ? Who would have written them and when ? Who would have got rid of them ? And when and where?

Where is your evidence? All you have is a fancy conspiracy theory with no evidence.

Considering the opposition and enemies early Christians had why is there no record of this conspiracy?

You’ve already tried this corruption argument with the Council of Nicea which has been proven wrong.

 

And don’t forget the Quaran written much later than any ‘supposed’ corruption says the New Testament is true and makes no mention of it being corrupted.

It is He Who has sent down the Book (the Qur'an) to you (Muhammad) with truth, confirming what came before it. And he sent down the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel). Sura 3:3. 

Plus you still hadn’t proven to me where it says in the Quaran the Injil was corrupted. All you have provided was something about monks inventing monasteries in Sura 57.27. Nothing about corruption of the Injil.

In the Quaran it says –

If thou wert in doubt as to what We have revealed unto thee, then ask those who have been reading the book before thee. Surah 10.94

The above recommends you consult Christians. So why don’t you do so ? If the original Torah and Gospel had been corrupted or replaced, would the Qur'an direct Muhammad or Muslims to consult the readers of these Scriptures?

Besides all of the above. Where is your original Quran? You have nothing before Uthman burned all copies for reasons that are highly suspicious and controversial.

 

And the discovery of an early Quran in Sunaa Yemen in 1972 sheds doubt on the orthodox Muslim belief that the Quran, as it has reached us today, is “the perfect, timeless, and unchanging Word of God”.

The Sunaa Quaran discovery shows the Quran has been distorted, perverted, revised, modified and corrected, and textual alterations had taken place over the years purely by Human hands.

The sacred aura surrounding this Holy Scripture of Islam, is gone and the ‘core belief’ of Muslims that the Quran is the eternal, unaltered word of God is now clearly visible as a hoax or falsehood.

Not only this, but the Quranic claim that nobody can alter the words of God is also a fake. Have a read -

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sana'a_manuscript

 

 

Abu Loren Said

So the Trinity doctrine won the race to be the new Christian teaching and all the others were cruelly suppressed by the early church fathers with the backing of the mighty pagan Roman Empire. This mighty Roman Empire is still ruling Christianity from the Vatican even to this day.  

My Reply

The Roman Empire ruling Christianity from the Vatican to this day! Really!

You need to learn Church history. The Eastern Syrian, Ethiopian and Egyptian Coptic churches were never under Rome, and the Protestant Churches broke ties with Rome in the 16th century.

The only support you have quoted for your conspiracy theory was the Council of Nicea which I have already proven wrong. So once again where is your evidence?

You need to be more worried about idolatry you practice in  bowing to your Arab pagan rock everyday and trying to kiss it at the Haj.

 

 

Abu Loren Said

IT'S ALSO A SAD FACT THAT YOU HAVE TO RESORT TO WATCHING YOUTUBE VIDEOS LIKE THIS TO GET YOUR INFORMATION FROM.

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kuvB-UDMJ38&feature=related

My Reply

Yes the internet is full of these problems for Muslims. Again it makes me wonder how with the amount of human interpretation involved there enough to doubt the Quran is being the sacred, literal, perfect, factual and infallible word of God as Muslims claim.

Combine this with the fact that most Muslims don’t even read or speak Arabic and it makes me wonder just how accessible is “The Word of God” to mankind.

 

]]> Thu, 01 Nov 2012 15:25:24 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=169647#169647 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Originally posted by Experiential Originally... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=169640#169640 Author: Mahdi The Seeke
Subject: 23672
Posted: 01 November 2012 at 2:21pm

Originally posted by Experiential

Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

Mahdi Said Let us look at some more information. Matthew 10:23 When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next, for truly, I say to you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes. Maybe all nations = Israel My Reply Mahdi. Its true - they actually did not go through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man came, because the Son of Man did come - after his resurrection. Very good answer Experiential. Matthew 10 New International Version (NIV) Jesus Sends Out the Twelve Jesus called his twelve disciples to him and gave them authority to drive out impure spirits and to heal every disease and sickness. 2 These are the names of the twelve apostles: first, Simon (who is called Peter) and his brother Andrew; James son of Zebedee, and his brother John; 3 Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus; 4 Simon the Zealot and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him. 5 These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: “Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. 6 Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel. 7 As you go, proclaim this message: ‘The kingdom of heaven has come near.’ 8 Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy,[a] drive out demons. Freely you have received; freely give. 9 “Do not get any gold or silver or copper to take with you in your belts— 10 no bag for the journey or extra shirt or sandals or a staff, for the worker is worth his keep. 11 Whatever town or village you enter, search there for some worthy person and stay at their house until you leave. 12 As you enter the home, give it your greeting. 13 If the home is deserving, let your peace rest on it; if it is not, let your peace return to you. 14 If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, leave that home or town and shake the dust off your feet. 15 Truly I tell you, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town. 16 “I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves. 17 Be on your guard; you will be handed over to the local councils and be flogged in the synagogues. 18 On my account you will be brought before governors and kings as witnesses to them and to the Gentiles. 19 But when they arrest you, do not worry about what to say or how to say it. At that time you will be given what to say, 20 for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you. 21 “Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. 22 You will be hated by everyone because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 23 When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. Truly I tell you, you will not finish going through the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes. By claiming the last statement of the scripture is talking about Jesus ressurection, you are making him a liar and false prophet. Unless you can prove all the things he predicted in the quoted scripture happened before his ressurection. Who is taking verses out of context now?

<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">No it is after his resurrection. The reason for this is <?:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><ST1:CITY w:st="on">Jerusalem</ST1:CITY> and <ST1:COUNTRY-REGIoN w:st="on"><ST1:PLACE w:st="on">Israel</ST1:PLACE></ST1:COUNTRY-REGIoN> had judgment brought upon it in AD 70.


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><FONT face="Times New Roman"><SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>The term Son of Man is often used in the context of judgment. The judgment of the Son of Man fell upon <ST1:COUNTRY-REGIoN w:st="on"><ST1:PLACE w:st="on">Israel</ST1:PLACE></ST1:COUNTRY-REGIoN> in AD 70.


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">The disciples had not finished going through the towns of <ST1:COUNTRY-REGIoN w:st="on">Israel</ST1:COUNTRY-REGIoN> before the Son of Man came in judgment on <ST1:CITY w:st="on">Jerusalem</ST1:CITY> and <ST1:PLACE w:st="on"><ST1:COUNTRY-REGIoN w:st="on">Israel</ST1:COUNTRY-REGIoN></ST1:PLACE> in AD 70 after the resurrection of Jesus.


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">This is also the fulfillment of Matthew 10:15 the Day of Judgment.


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><O:P><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </O:P>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><FONT face="Times New Roman">In regards to the gentile / Jew question in Mathew 10.18 you see a hint that the message of the disciples would not long be confined to the lost sheep of the house of <ST1:COUNTRY-REGIoN w:st="on"><ST1:PLACE w:st="on">Israel</ST1:PLACE></ST1:COUNTRY-REGIoN> but would also move to the Gentiles. Judgment first to the Jews and then to the whole world.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><O:P><SPAN style="TEXT-DECORATION: none"><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </SPAN></O:P>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><FONT face="Times New Roman">Mathew 10.18. “<I style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal">And you shall be brought before governors (Gentiles) provincial rulers (Gentil<O:P></O:P>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><I style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal"><FONT face="Times New Roman">es) and kings (Gentiles) the highest tribunals (Gentiles) for my sake, for a testimony against them rather, "to them," in order to bear testimony to the truth and its glorious effects.” <O:P></O:P>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><O:P><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </O:P>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">Later in Mathew 15. 22 Jesus was to heal the daughter of the Syrophoenician woman (Gentile).



SO the 'day of judgement' was the day the temple in Jerusalem was destroyed in 70 AD. I guess we are all in heaven now.
]]> Thu, 01 Nov 2012 14:21:01 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=169640#169640 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Mahdi Said Experiential, you are... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=169638#169638 Author: Mahdi The Seeke
Subject: 23672
Posted: 01 November 2012 at 1:53pm

Mahdi Said Experiential, you are simply
making excuses for Peter.
There is nothing for Peter to
fear if Jesus told him to go to
all nations. So he is more
afraid of criticism from his fellow disciples than his
master. My Reply Hello Mahdi. Read Mark 14.69,
Luke 22.54 Mathew 26.73 and
John 18.13 and you will see
what a coward Peter could be.
He even denied knowing
Jesus!

A coward who denies his master out of fear can do the same about his master's instructions.

Mahdi Said That raises another question.
Why would his fellow disciples
(i.e James) object to him
associating with gentiles if he
was following Jesus
instructions to teach all creation? My Reply But Mahdi, James did support
Paul going to the gentiles! See
The Book of Acts 15.13 -30.

I was asking why Peter was afraid, not Paul

Mahdi Said Even when visiting Cornelius,
Peter did not say that 'Jesus
told us to teach all nations' but
refers to a vision. My Reply Yes it was after the vision, but
Peter would still have refused
to act on the vision if Jesus had
never said to go to the
gentiles.
Besides there are plenty of examples where the disciples
didn’t understand what Jesus
was saying until later. For
example at first they thought
Jesus as the Messiah would be
a military ruler.

Since you established Peter, the 'rock' on which the church was built, as a coward, i will not put it beyond him to accept a roman centurion out of fear, just like he denied Jesus out of fear. And now you are telling me how the other disciples also did not understand Jesus words. If they did not understand themselves, how can they teach others? Can ANYTHING they teach even be trusted given their lack understanding?


Mahdi Said Jesus never told his disciples to
go first to Jews then gentiles.
Quote the appropriate
scripture if i am wrong. My Reply. OK. Here they are.
Luke 24:46. “He told them,
"This is what is written: The
Christ will suffer and rise from
the dead on the third day,
Luke 24:47 and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be
preached in his name to all
nations, beginning at
Jerusalem.”

Can you first tell me where in the scripture Jesus' claim in Lke 24:46-48 is found? And as for Peter, i no longer trust him on account of his cowardice which you very familiar with



Mahdi Said What I am trying to establish
is that based on the behavior
of the disciples in the verses I
quoted, Jesus never instructed
them to teach 'all creation' as
in Matthew 28:18. The evidence is consistent with
statements in Matthew 10:5-6
and Matthew 15:24. My Reply I think from the above verses
it is obvious. First to the Jew
and then to the gentile.

Indeed. First take care of god's chosen people. In the meantime, the gentile riff raff can live in sin , die or whstever. They have been thorns in the side of my people Israel dince the beginning. Afterall, they are simply dogs who will be lucky to even get crumbs from the master's table.]]> Thu, 01 Nov 2012 13:53:19 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=169638#169638 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Originally posted by Larry Since,... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=169614#169614 Author: Experiential
Subject: 23672
Posted: 01 November 2012 at 3:22am

Originally posted by Larry


   Since, in your statement, NONE of the Injil writers, except perhaps Luke and Paul, EVEN KNEW EACH OTHER and writing in DIFFERENT times and places, it is incredible that all these men should be able to write Gospels that agreed with each other in almost every single detail. THAT is what gives the New Testament it's authority and authenticity. 

   
Good point Larry. If they wanted to twist the scriptures they would have had to know each other and regular contact to get their stories right.
 


Edited by Experiential - 01 November 2012 at 3:24am]]> Thu, 01 Nov 2012 03:22:06 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=169614#169614 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Originally posted by LarryAbu... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=169610#169610 Author: Abu Loren
Subject: 23672
Posted: 01 November 2012 at 12:43am

Originally posted by Larry

Abu Loren,

   Experiential made the comment that, "All the other Injil writers such as Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, James and Peter agreed with Paul."

   You answered, "Rubbish. With the possible exception of Luke, who being an assistant to Paul all the others did not even know each other. The writers and their writings also differ in the time in which they wrote."

   You seem to have misunderstood your reply and provided more evidence of the truth of the Injil.

   Since, in your statement, NONE of the Injil writers, except perhaps Luke and Paul, EVEN KNEW EACH OTHER and writing in DIFFERENT times and places, it is incredible that all these men should be able to write Gospels that agreed with each other in almost every single detail. THAT is what gives the New Testament it's authority and authenticity.

   Thanks for pointing that out for everyone.

   Also, in reply to the Qur'anic "contradictions" provided by Experiential, you make a surprising statement. You said,

   "Most of the contradictions that you provided were silly, even a child would be ashamed to provide them as contradictions."

   MOST? You didn't address the "OTHER" contradictions provided beside "most" of the others. How easy it is to get tripped up by what we say when we aren't thinking about the content of our answers. That's when the real truth of a matter comes out.

Larry
 
]]> Thu, 01 Nov 2012 00:43:43 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=169610#169610 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Abu Loren, Experiential made... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=169533#169533 Author: Larry
Subject: 23672
Posted: 29 October 2012 at 11:39pm

Abu Loren,

   Experiential made the comment that, "All the other Injil writers such as Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, James and Peter agreed with Paul."

   You answered, "Rubbish. With the possible exception of Luke, who being an assistant to Paul all the others did not even know each other. The writers and their writings also differ in the time in which they wrote."

   You seem to have misunderstood your reply and provided more evidence of the truth of the Injil.

   Since, in your statement, NONE of the Injil writers, except perhaps Luke and Paul, EVEN KNEW EACH OTHER and writing in DIFFERENT times and places, it is incredible that all these men should be able to write Gospels that agreed with each other in almost every single detail. THAT is what gives the New Testament it's authority and authenticity.

   Thanks for pointing that out for everyone.

   Also, in reply to the Qur'anic "contradictions" provided by Experiential, you make a surprising statement. You said,

   "Most of the contradictions that you provided were silly, even a child would be ashamed to provide them as contradictions."

   MOST? You didn't address the "OTHER" contradictions provided beside "most" of the others. How easy it is to get tripped up by what we say when we aren't thinking about the content of our answers. That's when the real truth of a matter comes out.

Larry

Edited by Larry - 29 October 2012 at 11:49pm]]> Mon, 29 Oct 2012 23:39:00 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=169533#169533 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Experiential says Jesus came in... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=169532#169532 Author: Mahdi The Seeke
Subject: 23672
Posted: 29 October 2012 at 10:57pm

Experiential says Jesus came in 70AD and refers to the new testament as injil.]]> Mon, 29 Oct 2012 22:57:57 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=169532#169532 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : I am still waiting for someone... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=169529#169529 Author: Caringheart
Subject: 23672
Posted: 29 October 2012 at 9:37pm

I am still waiting for someone to tell me what it is that Paul teaches that they feel does not agree with Islam?]]> Mon, 29 Oct 2012 21:37:29 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=169529#169529 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Originally posted by Experiential You... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=169494#169494 Author: Abu Loren
Subject: 23672
Posted: 29 October 2012 at 8:00am

Originally posted by Experiential

You asked for contradictions in the Quran so many were provided. Some of your replies were more satisfactory than others.

But with the degree of human interpretation involved there is enough to doubt the Quran being the sacred, literal, perfect, factual and infallible word of God as Muslims claim.

Combine this with the fact that most Muslims don’t even read or speak Arabic and it makes me wonder just how accessible  is “The Word of God”  to mankind.

Most of the contradictions that you provided were silly, even a child would be ashamed to provide them as contradictions.

 

Originally posted by Experiential

All of the other Injil writers such as Mathew, Mark, Luke, John, James and Peter agreed with Paul.

Rubbish. With the possible exception of Luke, who being an assistant to Paul all the others did not even know each other. The writers and their writings also differ in the time in which they wrote.
 
Originally posted by Experiential

I agree. On The Last Day, you, I and the whole world will bow to Jesus. What’s more, He is available to get to know now!

 

 
Christians should not even be quoting Paul because he did not intent for his LETTERS to be included in any canonical Christian works, they are there by accident as somebody decided to include them in the NT. These letters were btw just letters that he sent to different churches encouraging them to not give up and to believe in Jesus as the Christ. His doctrine became popular and all of the rest of the gospels were 'gotten rid of'. So the Trinity doctrine won the race to be the new Christian teaching and all the others were cruelly suppressed by the early church fathers with the backing of the mighty pagan Roman Empire. This mighty Roman Empire is still ruling Christianity from the Vatican even to this day.   
 
IT'S ALSO A SAD FACT THAT YOU HAVE TO RESORT TO WATCHING YOUTUBE VIDEOS LIKE THIS TO GET YOUR INFORMATION FROM.
 


Edited by Abu Loren - 29 October 2012 at 9:58am]]> Mon, 29 Oct 2012 08:00:07 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=169494#169494 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Originally posted by Abu Loren Originally... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=169470#169470 Author: Experiential
Subject: 23672
Posted: 28 October 2012 at 2:26am

Originally posted by Abu Loren

Originally posted by Experiential

Correct. The Old Covenant is null and void. Jeremiah promised the new covenant would come later and then Jesus heralded it in when he said –

In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.

Luke 22:20.

Who says? Paul? Jesus (pbuh) did NOT abolish the law. The verse you quoted could have been inserted anytime. We can't trust it.

 

Originally posted by Experiential

Yes the Quran and Muslims are confused about the Injil. However the New Testament is the most validated of all ancient writings. More ancient copies exist than any other ancient writing, for example the Roman history of Julius Caesar, and others. Plus these copies cover a huge and wide geographic area that prevents them from being gathered together and falsified.

There are more than 24,000 partial and complete manuscript copies of the New Testament. These manuscript copies are very ancient and they are available for inspection now.

There are also some 86,000 quotations from the early church fathers and several thousand Lectionaries (church-service books containing Scripture quotations used in the early centuries of Christianity). As a result the New Testament has an overwhelming amount of evidence supporting its reliability.

 The original scriptures are lost.

 

Originally posted by Experiential

Muslim word games. Nothing more. The new religion started with Mohammad.

Are you God?

 

 

Originally posted by Experiential

Muslim word games. Nothing more. The new religion started with Mohammad.   

Are you God?

Originally posted by Experiential

I am not demonizing her. She was blessed ! However the Torah is clear – the promise was with Isaac. (/QUOTE] 

 Yes Jewish prejudice.

Originally posted by Experiential

Quoting the Quaran means nothing to me because I don’t believe in the Quaran.

I see then what are you doing in an Islamic forum?  

Originally posted by Experiential

Show me the inconsistencies and contradictions. Where is your proof.

The Injil was not changed at Nicea. The Injil was firmly established more than 200 years before Nicea and no decisions were made at Nicaea as to what would be included in the Injil.

All they discussed at Nicea was doctrine. What the Injil meant by the “God the Son” and the date of the Easter Festival.

This is historical fact.

 

Same old, same old...
 
 
[QUOTE=Experiential]  

Where is your evidence ? Prove it.

The proof is in the Holy Qur'an which you don't believe in. So it's pointless quoting here.
 

Abu Loren Said

Who says? Paul? Jesus (pbuh) did NOT abolish the law. The verse you quoted could have been inserted anytime. We can't trust it.

My Reply

Actually Abu Loren this was Luke quoting Jesus, not Paul.

In regards to the law you are right, Jesus did not come to abolish the law – but to fulfill the law !

There appears to be nothing in the Injil you can trust. But yet the Quran says –

 

And in their footsteps, We sent 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary) confirming the Taurat (Torah) that had come before him, and We gave him the Injeel (Gospel), in which was guidance and light and confirmation of the Taurat (Torah) that had come before it, a guidance and an admonition for Al-Muttaqun Sura 5:46. S. 57:27Sura 19.30. He [Jesus] said, "Lo, I am God's servant; God has given me the Book, and made me a Prophet."

Sura 3:3. It is He Who has sent down the Book (the Qur'an) to you (Muhammad) with truth, confirming what came before it. And he sent down the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel).

 

Sura 5:46 states that the Injil was given to Jesus by Allah.

Sura 19:30 and 3:3 then clarify that the Injil is a book just as the Qur'an and the Torah are books that were sent down by Allah.

Abu Loren Said

The original scriptures are lost.

My Reply

Apart from the written evidence we have the oral traditions and memory of believers at this time. So there is sufficient evidence to satisfy me.

Besides your original scriptures don’t exist either! Uthman destroyed all traces of the early Quran so you don’t know what your original scriptures looked like.

 

Abu Loren Said

Are you God?

 My Reply

Are you? Its obvious. Before the new religion of Mohammad people were either Pagans, Jews or Christians.

 

 

Abu Loren Said

Yes Jewish prejudice.

My Reply

Prejudice against who? Muslims? The Torah was written 1900 years before Mohamed. Why would there be prejudice against a religion that didn’t exist yet?

 

 

Abu Loren Said

I see then what are you doing in an Islamic forum? 

My Reply

Because this is an interfaith dialogue thread.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

]]> Sun, 28 Oct 2012 02:26:45 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=169470#169470 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Originally posted by Abu Loren Originally... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=169469#169469 Author: Experiential
Subject: 23672
Posted: 28 October 2012 at 2:23am

Originally posted by Abu Loren

Originally posted by Experiential

Correct. The Old Covenant is null and void. Jeremiah promised the new covenant would come later and then Jesus heralded it in when he said –

In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.

Luke 22:20.

Who says? Paul? Jesus (pbuh) did NOT abolish the law. The verse you quoted could have been inserted anytime. We can't trust it.

 

Actually Abu Loren this was Luke quoting Jesus, not Paul.

In regards to the law you are right, Jesus did not come to abolish the law – but to fulfill the law !

There appears to be nothing in the Injil you can trust. But yet the Quran says –

 

And in their footsteps, We sent 'Iesa (Jesus), son of Maryam (Mary) confirming the Taurat (Torah) that had come before him, and We gave him the Injeel (Gospel), in which was guidance and light and confirmation of the Taurat (Torah) that had come before it, a guidance and an admonition for Al-Muttaqun Sura 5:46. S. 57:27Sura 19.30. He [Jesus] said, "Lo, I am God's servant; God has given me the Book, and made me a Prophet."

Sura 3:3. It is He Who has sent down the Book (the Qur'an) to you (Muhammad) with truth, confirming what came before it. And he sent down the Taurat (Torah) and the Injeel (Gospel).

 

Sura 5:46 states that the Injil was given to Jesus by Allah.

Sura 19:30 and 3:3 then clarify that the Injil is a book just as the Qur'an and the Torah are books that were sent down by Allah.

 
 

Originally posted by Experiential

Yes the Quran and Muslims are confused about the Injil. However the New Testament is the most validated of all ancient writings. More ancient copies exist than any other ancient writing, for example the Roman history of Julius Caesar, and others. Plus these copies cover a huge and wide geographic area that prevents them from being gathered together and falsified.

There are more than 24,000 partial and complete manuscript copies of the New Testament. These manuscript copies are very ancient and they are available for inspection now.

There are also some 86,000 quotations from the early church fathers and several thousand Lectionaries (church-service books containing Scripture quotations used in the early centuries of Christianity). As a result the New Testament has an overwhelming amount of evidence supporting its reliability.

 The original scriptures are lost.

 

Apart from the written evidence we have the oral traditions and memory of believers at this time. So there is sufficient evidence to satisfy me.

Besides your original scriptures don’t exist either! Uthman destroyed all traces of the early Quran so you don’t know what your original scriptures looked like.

 

Originally posted by Experiential

Muslim word games. Nothing more. The new religion started with Mohammad.

Are you God?
 

Are you? Its obvious. Before the new religion of Mohammad people were either Pagans, Jews or Christians.

 

Originally posted by Experiential

I am not demonizing her. She was blessed ! However the Torah is clear – the promise was with Isaac. (/QUOTE] 

 Yes Jewish prejudice.
 

Prejudice against who? Muslims? The Torah was written 1900 years before Mohamed. Why would there be prejudice against a religion that didn’t exist yet?

Originally posted by Experiential

Quoting the Quaran means nothing to me because I don’t believe in the Quaran.

I see then what are you doing in an Islamic forum?  
 

Because this is an interfaith dialogue thread.

Originally posted by Experiential

Show me the inconsistencies and contradictions. Where is your proof.

The Injil was not changed at Nicea. The Injil was firmly established more than 200 years before Nicea and no decisions were made at Nicaea as to what would be included in the Injil.

All they discussed at Nicea was doctrine. What the Injil meant by the “God the Son” and the date of the Easter Festival.

This is historical fact.

 

Same old, same old...
 
 
[QUOTE=Experiential]  

Where is your evidence ? Prove it.

The proof is in the Holy Qur'an which you don't believe in. So it's pointless quoting here.
 
]]> Sun, 28 Oct 2012 02:23:49 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=169469#169469 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Originally posted by Abu Loren Originally... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=169468#169468 Author: Experiential
Subject: 23672
Posted: 28 October 2012 at 2:14am

Originally posted by Abu Loren

Originally posted by Experiential

Nonsensical.
 

Who Was the First Muslim?

It seems clear to me that you do not understand  anything.

6:14,163 are very clear. After the Arabs had descended into idol worship, of course Muhammed (pbuh) is the first Muslim amongst them as he was the first to submit to the One True God.

7:143 After seeing the miracle that Allah Subhana Wa Ta’ala had just performed, Prophet Musa (pbuh) prostates to the ground and is asking God to forgive him for testing Allah Subhana Wa Ta’ala then says that he will be first of the believers in his new Covenant.

26:51 This is when the magicians had just witnessed the miracle Prophet Musa (pbuh) had performed with his staff in front of the Pharoah. The magicians were utterly defeated and thus became believers, hence they will be the first Muslims there.

2:127-133, 3:67 All Prophet Ibrahim (pbuh) is saying here is to make his descendants Muslims.

2:37???

Can Allah be seen and did Muhammad see his Lord?

53:1-18 You are confused once more. This surah tells us that he saw the Archangel Jibril (AS).

81:15-29 You are yet MORE confused. Again this tells the vision of Jibril (AS).

6:102-103 It just says that Allah Subhana Wa Ta’ala sees everything.

42:51 This is laughable and pitiful. The verse says that Allah Subhana Wa Ta’ala do not send revelations directly to a human being.

Were Warners Sent to All Mankind Before Muhammad?

Of course warners were sent to all mankind before Prophet Muhammed (pbuh). Propets Nuh, Ibrahim, Musa, Dawud, Suleiman, Shu’aib, Hud, Salih,  Isa (peace blessings of Allah be upon them all) comes to mind. When the original message is lost then they are not the same people, religiously speaking.

What about Hud and Salih who supposedly were sent to the Arabs?

The people of Prophet Hud (pbuh) and Prophet Salih were completely destroyed by Allah Subhana Wa Ta’ala.

What about the Book that was supposedly given to Ishmael?

Which book is that? And what is it’s name?

If you read the Holy Qur’an properly then you will know that a thorny, poisonous plant is Zaqqum. As for the pus from wounds, that is for a people who are in the lower depths of hell. There are different layers within hell where sinners are sent according to the sins they’ve committed.

Can Angels Cause the Death of People?

Again you misunderstood. All the angels act upon the orders of Allah Subhana Wa Ta’ala therefore they by themselves do not cause death, they only act upon the orders given to them.

To Marry or Not to Marry?

Muslim men were allowed to marry because of the relationship that they have through Abraham. Like the food that was made lawful for both parties.

Will Allah reward the good deeds of Unbelievers?

Yet more confusion. Surah 99:7 says that the people who does good and evil see the result of their actions.

Should Muslims show kindness to their parents?

Yes because disobeying or showing unkindness to one’s parents is a great sin.  You are correct in saying that one should not show kindness or mercy to  one’s parents if they oppose Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) this is because if you obey such parents then they are taking you into disbelief and hell fire.

How many mothers does a Muslim have?

Allah Subhana Wa Ta’ala makes the distinction between one’s real mother and his nurse in order that the one who is nursed do not marry the woman who nursed him. By suckling, it is as if that woman is his mother. As for your other point it is very silly as this thread. The Prophet’s wives (May Allah be pleased with them) are given an honorary title ‘Mothers of the believers’. If you can’t understand this then there is no hope for you.

How many angels were talking to Mary?

The English translation is not the Holy Qura’n, it clearly states as ‘Malaikattu’ in Arabic in both of the ayas.

I’m not going continue any further because you lack serious understanding as demonstrated by you asking these silly questions and secondly this is seriously wasting my time explaining things to you. I suggest you engage with a Muslim scholar, then again I don’t think he will have time for silliness like this.

 

With regard to your quote from Paul in Philippians, I do not take Paul seriously as I do not believe that he had a vision Jesus (pbuh) when Jesus (pbuh) wasn’t even crucified.

PHILIPPIANS

2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

My interpretation of the above :-

God hath highly exalted him and given him a name which is above every name because he is the Messiah.

That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow because he is the promised king, the anointed, the Messiah.

And that every tongue should confess that Jesus is the Messiah, to the glory of God Almighty.

 

Abu Loren Said

I’m not going continue any further because you lack serious understanding as demonstrated by you asking these silly questions and secondly this is seriously wasting my time explaining things to you. I suggest you engage with a Muslim scholar, then again I don’t think he will have time for silliness like this.

My Reply

You asked for contradictions in the Quran so many were provided. Some of your replies were more satisfactory than others.

But with the degree of human interpretation involved there is enough to doubt the Quran being the sacred, literal, perfect, factual and infallible word of God as Muslims claim.

Combine this with the fact that most Muslims don’t even read or speak Arabic and it makes me wonder just how accessible  is “The Word of God”  to mankind.

 

Abu Loren Said

With regard to your quote from Paul in Philippians, I do not take Paul seriously as I do not believe that he had a vision Jesus (pbuh) when Jesus (pbuh) wasn’t even crucified.

My Reply

All of the other Injil writers such as Mathew, Mark, Luke, John, James and Peter agreed with Paul.

 

PHILIPPIANS

2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

 

Abu Loren Said

My interpretation of the above :-

God hath highly exalted him and given him a name which is above every name because he is the Messiah.

That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow because he is the promised king, the anointed, the Messiah.

And that every tongue should confess that Jesus is the Messiah, to the glory of God Almighty.

My Reply

I agree. On The Last Day, you, I and the whole world will bow to Jesus. What’s more, He is available to get to know now!

 

 

]]> Sun, 28 Oct 2012 02:14:30 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=169468#169468 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : My Reply I agree. On The... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=169467#169467 Author: Experiential
Subject: 23672
Posted: 28 October 2012 at 2:09am

[I’m not going continue any further because you lack serious understanding as demonstrated by you asking these silly questions and secondly this is seriously wasting my time explaining things to you. I suggest you engage with a Muslim scholar, then again I don’t think he will have time for silliness like this.

 

My Reply

You asked for contradictions in the Quran so many were provided. Some of your replies were more satisfactory than others.

But with the degree of human interpretation involved there is enough to doubt the Quran being the sacred, literal, perfect, factual and infallible word of God as Muslims claim.

 

Combine this with the fact that most Muslims don’t even read or speak Arabic and it makes me wonder just how accessible  is “The Word of God”  to mankind.

 
With regard to your quote from Paul in Philippians, I do not take Paul seriously as I do not believe that he had a vision Jesus (pbuh) when Jesus (pbuh) wasn’t even crucified.

PHILIPPIANS

2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name:

 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.

My interpretation of the above :-

God hath highly exalted him and given him a name which is above every name because he is the Messiah.

That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow because he is the promised king, the anointed, the Messiah.

And that every tongue should confess that Jesus is the Messiah, to the glory of God Almighty.

 

[/QUOTE]

My Reply

I agree. On The Last Day, you, I and the whole world will bow to Jesus. What’s more, He is available to get to know now!

]]> Sun, 28 Oct 2012 02:09:35 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=169467#169467 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Abu Loren, In reference to your... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=169381#169381 Author: Larry
Subject: 23672
Posted: 25 October 2012 at 4:11am

Abu Loren,

   In reference to your conversation with Experiential.
**************************************************

   You say, in relation to the question about Jesus abolishing the Law,

   "Who says? Paul? Jesus (pbuh) did NOT abolish the law. The verse you quoted could have been inserted anytime, we can't trust it."

   Who is "we?" Muslims?

   Actually, Jesus Christ in Matthew 5:17 says,

   17. "Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill."

   The "New Testament" (Covenant) is the record of this new covenant between God and man.

   I think that if someone had "inserted" (your "conspiracy theory") this passage into Matthew at a much later date, that someone would have noticed.

   Matthew 7:12 says,

   12. "Therefore, whatever you want men to do to you, do also to them, for this is the Law and the Prophets."

   Another "later insertion?"

**********************************************

   You say that "he original scriptures were lost."

   So was the "original" Qur'an.

   Correction: The "original" Qur'an was not lost, it was intentionally destroyed.

*************************************************

   The religion of Islam started with the "revelations" of Muhammad. There is absolutely NO evidence that there was a monotheistic religion in Arabia BEFORE Muhammad. In fact, the religion of the moon god, especially, was worshipped all over the ancient world, particularly in Arabia, and by the Sabeans, along with his three daughters, Al-Uzza, Al-Lat and Manat. The Kaaba in Mecca is not unique, there are other Kaabas in Arabia, and they were used for stone idol worship, as in Mecca.
   
   The Kaaba of Taif, called "Kabbah of Ellat" (of the Sun), was more significant and much older than the Kaaba of Mecca, All Arabs, including the Quryash, venerated this Kaaba.

*************************************************

   Experiential said, "I am not demonizing her (Hagar). She was blessed! However, the Torah is clear-the promise was with Isaac."

   You say that is "Jewish prejudice."

   Just the fact that Abraham sent Hagar and Ishmael away after the birth of Isaac, shows this to be true.

***********************************************

     You maintain that the "Injil" was "changed" at Nicea.

   Sorry, but you are wrong.

   "The First Council of Nicea was a council of Christian bishops convened in Nicea in Bithynia (modern day Iznik in Turkey) by the Roman Emperor Constantine I in A.D. 325. This first ecumenical, (1. general, universal, 2. Pertaining to the whole Christian church), was the first effort to attain consensus in the church through an assembly representing all of Christendom.
   It's main accomplishments were settlement of the Trinitarian issue of the nature of the Son and His relationship to God the Father, the construction of the first part of the Creed of Nicea, settling the calculation of the date of Easter, and the promulgation of early canon law."

   Not a single letter of the "Injil" was changed or modified.

************************************************

Larry

Edited by Larry - 25 October 2012 at 4:40am]]> Thu, 25 Oct 2012 04:11:14 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=169381#169381 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Originally posted... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=169282#169282 Author: Abu Loren
Subject: 23672
Posted: 23 October 2012 at 8:12am

Originally posted by Experiential

Correct. The Old Covenant is null and void. Jeremiah promised the new covenant would come later and then Jesus heralded it in when he said –

In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.

Luke 22:20.

Who says? Paul? Jesus (pbuh) did NOT abolish the law. The verse you quoted could have been inserted anytime. We can't trust it.

 

Originally posted by Experiential

Yes the Quran and Muslims are confused about the Injil. However the New Testament is the most validated of all ancient writings. More ancient copies exist than any other ancient writing, for example the Roman history of Julius Caesar, and others. Plus these copies cover a huge and wide geographic area that prevents them from being gathered together and falsified.

There are more than 24,000 partial and complete manuscript copies of the New Testament. These manuscript copies are very ancient and they are available for inspection now.

There are also some 86,000 quotations from the early church fathers and several thousand Lectionaries (church-service books containing Scripture quotations used in the early centuries of Christianity). As a result the New Testament has an overwhelming amount of evidence supporting its reliability.

 The original scriptures are lost.

 

Originally posted by Experiential

Muslim word games. Nothing more. The new religion started with Mohammad.

Are you God?

 

 

Originally posted by Experiential

Muslim word games. Nothing more. The new religion started with Mohammad.  

 

Are you God?

Originally posted by Experiential

I am not demonizing her. She was blessed ! However the Torah is clear – the promise was with Isaac. (/QUOTE] 

 Yes Jewish prejudice.

Originally posted by Experiential

Quoting the Quaran means nothing to me because I don’t believe in the Quaran.

I see then what are you doing in an Islamic forum? 

Originally posted by Experiential

Show me the inconsistencies and contradictions. Where is your proof.

The Injil was not changed at Nicea. The Injil was firmly established more than 200 years before Nicea and no decisions were made at Nicaea as to what would be included in the Injil.

All they discussed at Nicea was doctrine. What the Injil meant by the “God the Son” and the date of the Easter Festival.

This is historical fact.

 

Same old, same old...
 
 
[QUOTE=Experiential]  

Where is your evidence ? Prove it.

The proof is in the Holy Qur'an which you don't believe in. So it's pointless quoting here.
 


Edited by Abu Loren - 23 October 2012 at 10:45am]]> Tue, 23 Oct 2012 08:12:02 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=169282#169282 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Originally posted by Exp... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=169279#169279 Author: Abu Loren
Subject: 23672
Posted: 23 October 2012 at 6:35am

Originally posted by Experiential

Nonsensical.
 

Who Was the First Muslim?

It seems clear to me that you donot understand  anything.

6:14,163 are very clear. After theArabs had descended into idol worship, of course Muhammed (pbuh) is the firstMuslim amongst them as he was the first to submit to the One True God.

7:143 After seeing the miraclethat Allah Subhana Wa Ta’ala had just performed, Prophet Musa (pbuh) prostatesto the ground and is asking God to forgive him for testing Allah Subhana Wa Ta’alathen says that he will be first of the believers in his new Covenant.

26:51 This is when the magicianshad just witnessed the miracle Prophet Musa (pbuh) had performed with his staffin front of the Pharoah. The magicians were utterly defeated and thus becamebelievers, hence they will be the first Muslims there.

2:127-133, 3:67 All Prophet Ibrahim(pbuh) is saying here is to make his descendants Muslims.

2:37???

Can Allah be seen and did Muhammad see his Lord?

53:1-18 You are confused oncemore. This surah tells us that he saw the Archangel Jibril (AS).

81:15-29 You are yet MOREconfused. Again this tells the vision of Jibril (AS).

6:102-103 It just says that AllahSubhana Wa Ta’ala sees everything.

42:51 This is laughable andpitiful. The verse says that Allah Subhana Wa Ta’ala do not send revelationsdirectly to a human being.

Were Warners Sent to All Mankind Before Muhammad?

Of course warners were sent to allmankind before Prophet Muhammed (pbuh). Propets Nuh, Ibrahim, Musa, Dawud,Suleiman, Shu’aib, Hud, Salih,  Isa(peace blessings of Allah be upon them all) comes to mind. When the originalmessage is lost then they are not the same people, religiously speaking.

What about Hud and Salih who supposedly were sent to theArabs?

The people of Prophet Hud (pbuh)and Prophet Salih were completely destroyed by Allah Subhana Wa Ta’ala.

What about the Book that was supposedly given to Ishmael?

Which book is that? And what is it’sname?

If you read the Holy Qur’anproperly then you will know that a thorny, poisonous plant is Zaqqum. As forthe pus from wounds, that is for a people who are in the lower depths of hell.There are different layers within hell where sinners are sent according to thesins they’ve committed.

Can Angels Cause the Death of People?

Again you misunderstood. All theangels act upon the orders of Allah Subhana Wa Ta’ala therefore they bythemselves do not cause death, they only act upon the orders given to them.

To Marry or Not to Marry?

Muslim men were allowed to marry becauseof the relationship that they have through Abraham. Like the food that was madelawful for both parties.

Will Allah reward the good deeds of Unbelievers?

Yet more confusion. Surah 99:7says that the people who does good and evil see the result of their actions.

Should Muslims show kindness to their parents?

Yes because disobeying or showingunkindness to one’s parents is a great sin. You are correct in saying that one should not show kindness or mercy to  one’s parents if they oppose Prophet Muhammed(pbuh) this is because if you obey such parents then they are taking you intodisbelief and hell fire.

How many mothers does a Muslim have?

Allah Subhana Wa Ta’ala makes thedistinction between one’s real mother and his nurse in order that the one whois nursed do not marry the woman who nursed him. By suckling, it is as if thatwoman is his mother. As for your other point it is very silly as this thread.The Prophet’s wives (May Allah be pleased with them) are given an honorarytitle ‘Mothers of the believers’. If you can’t understand this then there is nohope for you.

How many angels were talking to Mary?

The English translation is not theHoly Qura’n, it clearly states as ‘Malaikattu’ in Arabic in both of the ayas.

I’m not going continue any furtherbecause you lack serious understanding as demonstrated by you asking thesesilly questions and secondly this is seriously wasting my time explainingthings to you. I suggest you engage with a Muslim scholar, then again I don’tthink he will have time for silliness like this.

 

With regard to your quote fromPaul in Philippians, I do not take Paul seriously as I do not believe that hehad a vision Jesus (pbuh) when Jesus (pbuh) wasn’t even crucified.

PHILIPPIANS

2:9 Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a namewhich is above every name:

 2:10 That at the name of Jesus every kneeshould bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under theearth2:11 And that every tongue should confess that Jesus Christ is Lord,to the glory of God the Father.

My interpretation of the above :-

God hath highly exalted him and given him a name which is aboveevery name because he is the Messiah.

That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow because he is thepromised king, the anointed, the Messiah.

And that every tongue should confess that Jesus is the Messiah, tothe glory of God Almighty.

 



Edited by Abu Loren - 23 October 2012 at 11:57am]]> Tue, 23 Oct 2012 06:35:09 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=169279#169279 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : *****************************... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=169267#169267 Author: Larry
Subject: 23672
Posted: 23 October 2012 at 1:02am


******************************************************************************************************************
******************************************************************************************************************
Abu Loren,

You say that;

Islam started with Prophet Adam (pbuh). But to make you understand what you are saying here, Prophet Ibrahim (pbuh) and Prophet Is'mail (pbuh) establish the religion of the One True God in Mecca. then over time this became corrupted and people started to worship idols. Then Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) re-established the monotheistic religion, destroying all the idols from the Ka'baa. With regard to the 'stone' I already told you that we do not worship it in any way, shape or form. It is special in the sense that it is from heaven, anything from heaven is special right Larry?

You say; "With regard to the 'stone' I already told you that we do not worship it in any way, shape or form. It is special in the sense that it is from heaven, anything from heaven is special right Larry?"

   "Special?" Let us see just HOW "special" this 'stone' is:

   The "Prophet" informed the three main virtues of the stone.

   1. Allah sent the Black Stone down from paradise whiter than milk; however, the sins of mankind turned it black."

   2. It will come on the Day of Judgement with two eyes with which it shall see and a tongue with which it will speak and will testify for those who have touched it in truth and sincerity.

   3. Touching the stone is also one of the means by which Allah erases sins.

   The "stone" will "see" and "speak" on Judgement Day? I'd say that makes it rather more "special" than you want to admit. Or is it common in Islam to believe that stones can see and talk? Or by merely "touching" the stone can "erase sin?" Or, do you say that these statements by the "Prophet" are not true?

   In the Bible, God warns us about revering or attributing special powers to idols and other objects made of stone or wood or precious metals that, "cannot walk or talk or see."

   Evidently, that doesn't apply to the "special" Black Stone.

Larry
******************************************************************************************************************
******************************************************************************************************************

Edited by Larry - 23 October 2012 at 6:53pm]]> Tue, 23 Oct 2012 01:02:42 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=169267#169267 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Originally posted by Abu Loren Originally... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=169220#169220 Author: Experiential
Subject: 23672
Posted: 21 October 2012 at 5:57pm

Originally posted by Abu Loren

Originally posted by Experiential

My Reply
In regards to the Old Covenant (Mosaic law) and the New Covenant the prophet Jeremiah talks about the New Covenant –

“But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. “Jeremiah 31:33


To say Jesus was a Muslim is ridiculous. How could he be a Muslim when he was born 600 years before the new religion of Mohammad. And don’t try playing with word meanings that it was because he was “submitted” to God. That’s just word games and twisting meaning.
Beside the Quran contradicts itself as to who was the first Muslim. Was it Moses? Was it other believers at the time of Moses? Was it pharaohs magicians? was it Mohammad? Was it Noah ? or was it Adam ?


Regarding Jeremiah 31:33 it does not say when the new Covenant will be established, it is not specific. Whatever the Covenant the Children of Israel established with God is now null and void because the Children of Israel broke that Covenant. For a covenant to be binding one or both of the parties must adhere to the Covenant and not break it.
With regard to your quotes from the New Testament they cannot be accepted because we don’t really know what is real and what is added.
You STILL do not know the meaning of the word MUSLIM. Let me explain it to you once more, a Muslim is a person who has submitted his being to the One True God Allah Subhana Wa Ta’ala. Therefore, from Adam (pbuh) to Jesus (pbuh) to Muhammed (pbuh) were all Muslims. Also include Abraham, Moses and all the prophets of God.

Originally posted by Experiential

My Reply
Mohammad did not understand the Jewish foundation that Christianity is based on. How could Ishmael be a Muslim before the new religion of Mohammad. And Ishmael was of the line of Hagar, the slave woman, not of the free woman Sarah and Gods blessing and promise to Isaac. As a result he brings a slave religion and not the heritage to ever lasting life.


Mohammed did not need to understand anything but was revealed to him by God Almighty. You keep thinking wrongly that Muslims just came on the scene when Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) was given prophethood. Keep thinking like that and you will never understand anything. It’s true that Hagar was a slave woman but she was beloved of Prophet Ibrahim (pbuh) and she gave him his first born son Prophet Ishmael (pbuh). You, like the writers of the Bible seem to demonise Hagar and Ishmael and as long as this hatred is in you then you will see things darkly.

Originally posted by Experiential


My Reply
They (Peter, James, Judas etc) were not Muslims. To say they were Muslims is ridiculous. How could they be Muslims when they was born 600 years before the new religion of Mohammad. And don’t try playing with word meanings that it was because he was “submitted” to God. That’s just word play.
Beside your Quran contradicts itself as to who was the first Muslim. Was it Moses? Was it other believers at time of Moses? Was it pharaohs magicians? Was it Mohammad? Was it Noah ? or was it Adam ?
If you want evidence they supported Paul read The Book of Acts 15.22 and 2 Peter 3.15.


You are just repeating the same old prejudice.

Sahih International

Or were you witnesses when death approached Jacob, when he said to his sons, "What will you worship after me?" They said, "We will worship your God and the God of your fathers, Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac - one God. And we are Muslims [in submission] to Him." 2:133

Originally posted by Experiential


My Reply
Ultimately it goes back to the descendents of Abraham. The Jews go back to the free woman Sarah and Gods blessing and promise to Isaac, not the line of Hagar the slave woman and her son Ishmael. As a result Jews and Christians are not of Hagars slave religion.


LOL same old rubbish. God tells us in the Holy Qur’an that both Ismael and Isaac both beloved to Prophet Ibrahim (pbuh) were blessed. Also Prophet Ibrahim (pbuh) loved both his sons equally.

Originally posted by Experiential

My Reply
In regards to Jesus as the “Lamb of God” there are prophesies and verses in the Torah and Injil that refer to The Messiah being offered as a “sacrificial lamb

Also in the Torah prophesies point to The Messiah dying–
Piercing His hands and feet (Psalm 22:16; Matthew 27:31)
Being crucified with thieves (Isaiah 53:12; Matthew 27:38)
Praying for His persecutors (Isaiah 53:12; Luke 23:34)
Piercing His side (Zechariah 12:10; John 19:34)


Rubbish. All were associations. All of the above is only true if you associate Jesus (pbuh) having gone through with the above. They’ve conveniently taken the above verses from the OT and associated it with Jesus (pbuh).

Originally posted by Experiential


My Reply
Prove it was corrupted. You cant. Your attempt at the Council of Nicea argument has already failed. And besides why believe something written 600 years after the fact.


The proof that the OT & NT are corrupted are in the inconsistencies and contradictions. It’s as plain as day is from night. I have not failed in my argument that the Bible was edited at the Council of Nicea. It’s just that you can’t see it because you have got blinkers on.

Originally posted by Experiential

My Reply
A few verses from Isaiah only! Really? I don’t think so! Here they are –


Again all of the examples you give are only true by association.

Originally posted by Experiential

Prove to me that Mohammad was prophesied in the Torah.


The proof has been suppressed in the Bible. Modern scholars have discovered that in the original Hebrew version of the Psalms ‘Muhammed’ is mentioned.

You need to open your eyes and open your heart and have an open mind. You have been spewing out what you have been taught by your fathers and you want keep the status quo.
You need to be like Prophet Ibrahim (pbuh) and Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) whose fathers were idol worshippers and they broke their stranglehold on idol worship and they were given wisdom and knowledge.

Sahih International

And when it is said to them, "Follow what Allah has revealed," they say, "Rather, we will follow that which we found our fathers doing." Even though their fathers understood nothing, nor were they guided? 2:170

Abu Loren Said

Regarding Jeremiah 31:33 it does not say when the new Covenant will be established, it is not specific.

Whatever the Covenant the Children of Israel established with God is now null and void because the Children of Israel broke that Covenant. For a covenant to be binding one or both of the parties must adhere to the Covenant and not break it.

My Reply

Correct. The Old Covenant is null and void. Jeremiah promised the new covenant would come later and then Jesus heralded it in when he said –

 In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, "This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.

 Luke 22:20.

 

Abu Loren Said

With regard to your quotes from the New Testament they cannot be accepted because we don’t really know what is real and what is added.

My Reply

Yes the Quran and Muslims are confused about the Injil. However the New Testament is the most validated of all ancient writings. More ancient copies exist than any other ancient writing, for example the Roman history of Julius Caesar, and others. Plus these copies cover a huge and wide geographic area that prevents them from being gathered together and falsified.

There are more than 24,000 partial and complete manuscript copies of the New Testament. These manuscript copies are very ancient and they are available for inspection now.

There are also some 86,000 quotations from the early church fathers and several thousand Lectionaries (church-service books containing Scripture quotations used in the early centuries of Christianity). As a result the New Testament has an overwhelming amount of evidence supporting its reliability.

 

 

Abu Loren Said

You STILL do not know the meaning of the word MUSLIM. Let me explain it to you once more, a Muslim is a person who has submitted his being to the One True God Allah Subhana Wa Ta’ala. Therefore, from Adam (pbuh) to Jesus (pbuh) to Muhammed (pbuh) were all Muslims. Also include Abraham, Moses and all the prophets of God.

My Reply

Muslim word games. Nothing more. The new religion started with Mohammad.

 

 

Abu Loren Said

Mohammed did not need to understand anything but was revealed to him by God Almighty. You keep thinking wrongly that Muslims just came on the scene when Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) was given prophethood. Keep thinking like that and you will never understand anything.

My Reply

Muslim word games. Nothing more. The new religion started with Mohammad.

 

 

Abu Loren Said

It’s true that Hagar was a slave woman but she was beloved of Prophet Ibrahim (pbuh) and she gave him his first born son Prophet Ishmael (pbuh). You, like the writers of the Bible seem to demonise Hagar and Ishmael and as long as this hatred is in you then you will see things darkly.

My Reply

I am not demonizing her. She was blessed ! However the Torah is clear – the promise was with Isaac.

 

Genesis 17:18- 21

 And Abraham said to God, "If only Ishmael might live under your blessing!"

 Then God said, "Yes, but your wife Sarah will bear you a son, and you will call him Isaac.  I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him.

And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of twelve rulers, and I will make him into a great nation.

But my covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear to you by this time next year."

 

 Abu Loren Said

You are just repeating the same old prejudice.

Sahih International. Or were you witnesses when death approached Jacob, when he said to his sons, "What will you worship after me?" They said, "We will worship your God and the God of your fathers, Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac - one God. And we are Muslims [in submission] to Him." 2:133

My Reply

Quoting the Quaran means nothing to me because I don’t believe in the Quaran.

 

 

Abu Loren Said

LOL same old rubbish. God tells us in the Holy Qur’an that both Ismael and Isaac both beloved to Prophet Ibrahim (pbuh) were blessed. Also Prophet Ibrahim (pbuh) loved both his sons equally.

My Reply

Quoting the Quaran means nothing to me because I don’t believe in the Quaran.

The Torah is clear – the promise was with Isaac.

 

Genesis 17:18- 21

 And Abraham said to God, "If only Ishmael might live under your blessing!"

 Then God said, "Yes, but your wife Sarah will bear you a son, and you will call him Isaac.  I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him.

And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of twelve rulers, and I will make him into a great nation.

But my covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear to you by this time next year."

 

 

Abu Loren Said

Rubbish. All were associations. All of the above is only true if you associate Jesus (pbuh) having gone through with the above. They’ve conveniently taken the above verses from the OT and associated it with Jesus (pbuh).

My Reply

The life, death and resurrection

of Jesus is documented historical fact. Unlike Mohamed’s version written more than 600 years later.

The historical facts fit the prophesies.

 

 

Abu Loren Said

The proof that the OT & NT are corrupted are in the inconsistencies and contradictions. It’s as plain as day is from night. I have not failed in my argument that the Bible was edited at the Council of Nicea. It’s just that you can’t see it because you have got blinkers on.

My Reply

Show me the inconsistencies and contradictions. Where is your proof.

The Injil was not changed at Nicea. The Injil was firmly established more than 200 years before Nicea and no decisions were made at Nicaea as to what would be included in the Injil.

All they discussed at Nicea was doctrine. What the Injil meant by the “God the Son” and the date of the Easter Festival.

This is historical fact.

 

 

Abu Loren Said

The proof has been suppressed in the Bible. Modern scholars have discovered that in the original Hebrew version of the Psalms ‘Muhammed’ is mentioned.

My Reply

Where is your evidence ? Prove it.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

]]> Sun, 21 Oct 2012 17:57:40 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=169220#169220 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Originally posted by Abu Loren Originally... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=169194#169194 Author: Experiential
Subject: 23672
Posted: 20 October 2012 at 9:46pm

Originally posted by Abu Loren


Originally posted by Larry


As I said before, simply reading the Qur'an's variant "teachings" on how Muslims should see and treat the other "Peoples of the Book" leads me to the inescapable conclusion that there is great and glaring discrepancy in these "teachings." That may not matter to you but I think it is illustrative of the contrary nature of many of the statements contained in the Qur'an.


Give me an example of a contradiction in the Holy Qur'an.

Originally posted by Larry


In Christianity and Judaism, we do not "pick and choose" which Biblical stories we will "accept" or "not accept" based on our own cultural preferences, as in Islam. There is no alcohol consumption allowed in the Qur'an, but, according to the Qur'an, there is wine to drink in heaven. Just another discrepancy in the teachings of the Qur'an. In Christianity and Judaism, sin in this world is not converted into virtue in the next.


I've now just lost all respect, if any, I had for you Larry. Muslims do not pick and choose neither from the Holy Qur'an but we accept all of it as the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

As for the wine in heaven, if you read the Holy Qur'an properly you would know that the wine is not intoxicating.

Sahih International

They will exchange with one another a cup [of wine] wherein [results] no ill speech or commission of sin.
52:23

There will be circulated among them a cup [of wine] from a flowing spring,
White and delicious to the drinkers;
No bad effect is there in it, nor from it will they be intoxicated.No bad effect is there in it, nor from it will they be intoxicated.
37:45-47

Originally posted by Larry


   In Christianity and Judaism we do not need Biblical truths to be "driven into our brains" to understand them. The Bible is written in a clear and linear form, easily understandable and in a coherent form that goes from earliest to latest. I found the structure of the Qur'an to be completely arbitrary and incoherent in form, something I wouldn't expect of a book that comes directly from the mind of God.


Indeed, you know God and how He should communicate with us and in what way.

Originally posted by Larry


No, it is not. Your absurd statements that "Ibrahim and Is'mail" established the religion of the One True God in Mecca shows how far Islam has to contort itself to fit into the structure of the Biblical narratives. There is NO evidence that monotheism began in Mecca, then disappeared into idolatry, then "returned" to it's "original" form via Muhammad's "revelations." One of the proofs that Islam has a pagan past is precisely shown in the Islamic "reverence" for the former idol, the "Black Stone," the only pre-Islamic idol that was not destroyed by Muhammad. An idol is an idol, no matter how much you pretend that it isn't, and should not be treated as something "special." The pagans believed the stone "came from heaven" and was "special" also, that is why it was WORSHIPPED" at the Kaaba. The Muslims feel their "stone" is so "special" that they built it into the very wall of the supposedly original HOUSE OF GOD in Mecca. I would say that that would indeed make it "special" in the eyes of Muslims. So much for shirk.


Sahih International

And [mention, O Muhammad], when Abraham said, "My Lord, make this city [Makkah] secure and keep me and my sons away from worshipping idols. 14:35

Our Lord, I have settled some of my descendants in an uncultivated valley near Your sacred House, our Lord, that they may establish prayer. So make hearts among the people incline toward them and provide for them from the fruits that they might be grateful. 14:37

With regard to the black stone I've already told you that it existed before the Ka'baa was used to store the idols and Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) destroyed all the idols when he took control of the Ka'baa. The black stone was kept not for people to worship or adore it but simply as a reminder that it came from heaven. As I've said before Larry anything that originated in heaven must be good, right?

Originally posted by Larry


I do not have "intense hatred" towards Muslims and Islam, I simply do not believe that Islam is a legitimate "continuation" of the Biblical narrative. I do not believe that Allah is the same God that Christians and Jews worship. I have read the Qur'an with an "open mind" and still found it confusing, chaotic and unstructured in it's form and contents. And I especially do not believe that Muhammad was a real prophet of God, let alone the "seal of the prophets." In the Bible there are hundreds of specific prophecies in the Old Testament that are fulfilled in the New Testament, this is the Biblical definition of a "prophet" or "prophecy." Muhammad makes NO real prophecies in the Qur'an at all, so I am at a loss to understand WHY Muslims consider Muhammad a "prophet" at all.


It's good that you don't hate Muslims and Islam as a whole, there may be a twinkling of a chance for you.

Larry there is only One God and how can you say that the Muslims worship a different God?
Once again i'm sorry that the structure of the Holy Qur'an is not to your liking, the good news is Larry you can ask God Almighty yourself on the Day of Judgement why it wasn't written specifically for you. :)

To understand Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) and his prophecies you have read his hadiths. So many prophecies are there.

Originally posted by Larry


I like the person that I am now, thanks anyway.


That's good Larry. However, your salvation depends on accepting and believing in the Final Revelation given to mankind by Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala through his final prophet and messenger Muhammed (pbuh).

 

Abu Loren Said

Give me an example of a contradiction in the Holy Qur'an.

My Reply

There are many contradictions in the Quran. For example –

 

Who Was the First Muslim? Muhammad [6:14, 163], Moses [7:143], some Egyptians [26:51], or Abraham [2:127-133, 3:67] or Adam, the first man who also received inspiration from Allah [2:37]?

 

Can Allah be seen and did Muhammad see his Lord? Yes [S. 53:1-18, 81:15-29], No [6:102-103, 42:51].

 

Were Warners Sent to All Mankind Before Muhammad? Allah had supposedly sent warners to every people [10:47, 16:35-36, 35:24],

 

Abraham and Ishmael are specifically claimed to have visited Mecca and built the Kaaba [2:125-129]. Yet, Muhammad supposedly is sent to a people who never had a messenger before [28:46, 32:3, 34:44, 36:2-6].

This raises other issues: What about Hud and Salih who supposedly were sent to the Arabs? What about the Book that was supposedly given to Ishmael? Etc.

 

What will be the food for the people in Hell? The food for the people in Hell will be only "Dhari" [Sura 88:6], or only foul pus from the washing of wounds [S. 69:36], or will they also get to eat from the tree of Zaqqum [S. 37:66]? Together, these verses constitute three contradictions.

 

Can Angels Cause the Death of People? The Qur'an attacks those who worship anyone besides God (e.g. angels or prophets) because those can neither create, nor give life, nor cause anyone to die. Yet, the Qur'an explicitly states that one angel or several angels are causing certain people to die [Sura 4:97, 16:28, 32, 32:11].

 

To Marry or Not to Marry? The Qur'an forbids believers to marry idolatrous women [Sura 2:221], and calls Christians idolaters and unbelievers [9:28-33], but still allows Muslims to marry Christian women [5:5]. Will it be accepted of them or not?

 

Will Allah reward the good deeds of Unbelievers? S. 9:17 and 9:69 clearly say no. However, S. 99:7 implies yes. Moreover, S. 2:62 promises Christians reward for their good deeds. But S. 9:28-33; 5:17, 72-73 calls Christians idolaters, and S. 9:17 is very clear that idolaters will have no reward.

 

Should Muslims show kindness to their parents? On the one hand, the Quran commands all Muslims to show kindness to their parents, even if they are disbelievers [17:23-24, 31:14-15, 29:8, etc.]. On the other hand, it demands not to show any love or friendship to those who oppose Muhammad, even if they are their parents [9:23, 58:22].

 

How many mothers does a Muslim have? Only one [58:2, the woman who gave birth and none else], or two [4:23, including the mother who nursed him], or at least ten [33:6]?

 

Sura 4:11-12 and 4:176 state the Qur'anic inheritance law. When a man dies, and is leaving behind three daughters, his two parents and his wife, they will receive the respective shares of 2/3 for the 3 daughters together, 1/3 for the parents together [both according to verse 4:11] and 1/8 for the wife [4:12] which adds up to more than the available estate. A second example: A man leaves only his mother, his wife and two sisters, then they receive 1/3 [mother, 4:11], 1/4 [wife, 4:12] and 2/3 [the two sisters, 4:176], which again adds up to 15/12 of the available property.

 

How many angels were talking to Mary? When the Qur'an speaks about the announciation of the birth of Jesus to the virgin Mary, Sura 3:42,45 speaks about (several) angels while it is only one in Sura 19:17-21.

 

Further numerical discrepancies –

Does Allah's day equal to 1,000 human years (Sura 22:47, 32:5) or 50,000 human years (Sura 70:4)? --- According to Sura 56:7 there will be THREE distinct groups of people at the Last Judgement, but 90:18-19, 99:6-8, etc. mention only TWO groups. --- There are conflicting views on who takes the souls at death: THE Angel of Death [32:11], THE angels (plural) [47:27] but also "It is Allah that takes the souls (of men) at death." [39:42] Angels have 2, 3, or 4 pairs of wings [35:1]; but Gabriel had 600 wings.

 

How many days did Allah need to destroy the people of Aad? One day [54:19] or several days [41:16; 69:6,7]

 

Six or eight days of creation? Sura 7:54, 10:3, 11:7, and 25:59 clearly state that God created "the heavens and the earth" in six days. But in 41:9-12 the detailed description of the creation procedure adds up to eight days.

 

Quick or Slow Creation? Allah creates the heavens and the earth in six days [7:54] and many Muslims want to be modern and scientific, and make that six eons, but then again, He creates instantaneously [2:117], "Be! And it is".

Heavens or Earth? Which was created first? First earth and then heaven [2:29], heaven and after that earth [79:27-30].

 

Calling together or ripping apart? In the process of creation heaven and earth were first apart and are called to come together [41:11], while 21:30 states that they were originally one piece and then ripped apart.

 

What was man created from? A blood clot [96:1-2], water [21:30, 24:45, 25:54], "sounding" (i.e. burned) clay [15:26], dust [3:59, 30:20, 35:11], nothing [19:67] and this is then denied in 52:35, earth [11:61], a drop of thickened fluid [16:4, 75:37]

 

Examining the inherent problems with the descent of the Quran

Is half the Quran already fully detailed? Fully Detailed Or Incomplete? The Qur'an claims for itself to be (fully) detailed, that nothing is left out of the book [6:38, 6:114, 12:111, 16:89 etc.]. However there are plenty of important issues which are left unclear in the Qur'an.

 

To Intercede or Not To Intercede? - That is the Question! The Qur'an makes contradictory statements whether on the Day of Judgment intercession will be possible. No: [2:122-123, 254; 6:51; 82:18-19; etc.]. Yes: [20:109; 34:23; 43:86; 53:26; etc.]. Each position can be further supported by ahadith.

 

How the Islamic Doctrine of Intercession undermines Allah's Omniscience

Where is Allah and his throne? Allah is nearer than the jugular vein [50:16], but he is also on the throne [57:4] which is upon the water [11:7], and at the same time so far away, that it takes between 1,000 and 50,000 years to reach him [32:5, 70:4].

 

The origin of calamity? Is the evil in our life from Satan [38:41], Ourselves [4:79], or Allah [4:78]?

 

How merciful is Allah's mercy? He has prescribed mercy for himself [6:12], yet he does not guide some, even though he could [6:35, 14:4].

 

Does Allah command to do evil? No [7:28, 16:90]. Yes [17:16, ]. Two examples are also given, where Allah clearly commanded or permitted indecent actions [2:229-230, 2:187].

 

Should Muhammad Get Paid Or Shouldn’t He?

 

A Contradiction Regarding Muhammad's Fatherhood

 

Will there be inquiry in Paradise? "neither will they question one another" [23:101] but nevertheless they will be "engaging in mutual inquiry" [52:25], "and they will ... question one another" [37:27].

 

Are angels protectors? "NO protector besides Allah" [2:107, 29:22]. But in Sura 41:31 the angels themselves say: "We are your protectors in this life and the Hereafter." And also in other suras is their role described as guarding [13:11, 50:17-18] and protecting [82:10].

 

Is Allah the only Wali? On the one hand, Allah is supposedly the only wali (protector, helper, friend) [9:116, 17:111, 32:4, 42:28], on the other hand, the messenger and the believers are walis [5:55, 9:71], Allah has walis [10:62], and he raises walis [4:75].

 

Does Allah Act Alone Or Does He Have Partners That Assist Him?

 

Is Allah the Only Judge or Not?

 

Is Allah the only sovereign or isn’t he?

 

Are all obedient and prostrating to Allah? That is the claim in 16:49 and 30:26, but dozens of verses speak of the proud disobedience of Satan [7:11, 15:28-31, 17:61, 20:116, 38:71-74, 18:50] as well of many different human beings who reject His commands and His revelations.

 

Does Allah forgive shirk? Shirk is considered the worst of all sins, but the author of the Qur'an seems unable to decide if Allah will ever forgive it or not. No [4:48, 116], Yes [4:153, 25:68-71].

 

Abraham committed this sin of polytheism as he takes moon, sun, stars to be his Lord [6:76-78], yet Muslims believe that all prophets are without any sin.

 

Abraham and the Sun

 

Abraham's Monotheism

 

Abraham's Progeny? How the Qur'an messed up Abraham's family tree

Did All Prophets Receive the Same Book?

 

The event of worship of the golden calf: The Israelites repented about worshipping the golden calf BEFORE Moses returned from the mountain [7:149], yet they refused to repent but rather continued to worship the calf until Moses came back [20:91]. Does Aaron share in their guilt? No [20:85-90], yes [20:92, 7:151].

 

Was Jonah cast on the desert shore or was he not? "Then We cast him on a desert shore while he was sick" [37:145] "Had not Grace from his Lord reached him, he would indeed have been cast off on the naked shore while he was reprobate." [68:49]

 

Moses and the Injil? Jesus is born more than 1,000 years after Moses, but in 7:157 Allah speaks to Moses about what is written in the Injil [the book given to Jesus].

 

Can slander of chaste women be forgiven? Yes [24:5], No [24:23].

How do we receive the record on Judgment Day? On Judgement day the lost people are given the Record (of their bad deeds): Behind their back [84:10], or in their left hand [69:25].

 

Can angels disobey? No angel is arrogant, they all obey Allah [16:49-50], but: "And behold, we said to the ANGELS: 'Bow down to Adam'. And THEY bowed down, EXCEPT Iblis. He refused and was haughty." [2:34].

 

How many wings does an angel have? Angels have 2, 3, or 4 wings [35:1]; but Gabriel had 600 wings according to Sahih al-Bukhari.

 

Is Satan an angel or a jinn?

 

Three contradictions in 2:97 and 16:101-103 Who brings the revelation from Allah to Muhammad? The ANGEL Gabriel [2:97], or the Holy Spirit [16:102]? The new revelation confirms the old [2:97] or substitutes it [16:101]?

 

The Qur'an is PURE Arabic [16:103] but there are numerous foreign, non-Arabic words in it.

 

Do not say, "Three"!? It is impossible to recite Sura 4:171 without transgressing the command contained in it.

 

The infinite loop problem Sura 26:192,195,196: "It (the Qur'an) is indeed a revelation from the Lord of the Worlds, ... in clear Arabic speech and indeed IT (the Qur'an) is in the writings of the earlier (prophets)." Now, the 'earlier writings' are the Torah and the Injil for example, written in Hebrew and Greek. HOW can an ARABIC Qur'an be contained in books of other languages? Furthermore, it would have to contain this very passage of the Qur'an since the Qur'an is properly contained in them. Hence these earlier writings have to be contained in yet other earlier writings and we are in an infinite loop, which is absurd.

 

Is the Torah like the Qur'an, or is it not? The Muslim claim of the corruption of the Bible leads to a contradiction between S. 2:24 and 17:88 on the one hand, and 28:49 and 46:10 on the other.

 

Should Jews and Christians follow the Bible or the Quran?

 

"An old woman" and God's character. About the story of Lot: "So we delivered him and his family, - all exept an old woman who lingered behind." [Sura 26:170-171] And again: "But we saved him and his family, exept his wife: she was of those who lagged behind. [Sura 7:83]. Either this is a contradiction or if indeed Lot's wife is derogatorily called "an old woman" then this does not show much respect for her as a wife of a prophet.

 

 

More problems with the story of Lot "And his people gave NO answer but this: They said, "Drive them out of your city: these are indeed men who want to be clean and pure!" [Sura 7:82 & 27:56]. Yet: "But his people gave NO answer but this: They said: "Bring us the Wrath of Allah if thou tellest the truth." [Sura 29:29]. Obviously these answers are different.

 

The "pleasure" of Allah? Is God's action of punishment or mercy and guidance or misguidance arbitrary?

 

Did Abraham smash the idols? The accounts of Abraham, Suras 19:41-49, 6:74-83 differ quite a bit from Sura 21:51-59. While in Sura 21 Abraham confronts his people strongly, and even destroys the idols, in Sura 19 Abraham shuts up after his father threatens him to stone him for speaking out against the idols. And he seems not only to become silent, but even to leave the area ("turning away from them all").

 

What about Noah's son? According to Sura 21:76, Noah and his family is saved from the flood, and Sura 37:77 confirms that his seed survived. But Sura 11:42-43 reports that Noah's son drowns.

 

Was Noah driven out? "Before them *the people of Noah* rejected (their messenger): They rejected Our servant and said, 'Here is One possessed!' And he was driven out." [Sura 54:9] Now, if he is driven out [expelled from their country] how come they can scoff at him while he is building the ark since we read "Forthwith he (starts) constructing the Ark: Every time that the Chiefs of *his people* passed by him, they threw ridicule on him." [Sura 11:38] He cannot be both: Driven out and near enough that they can regularly pass by.

 

Pharaoh's Magicians: Muslims or Rejectors of Faith? Did the Magicians of Pharaoh, Egyptians, become believers in the God of Moses [7:103-126; 20:56-73; S. 26:29-51] or did only Israelites believe in Moses [10:83]?

 

How many gods did the Egyptians worship?

 

Pharaoh's repentance in the face of death? According to Sura 10:90-92, Pharaoh repented "in the sight of death" and was saved. But Sura 4:18 says that such a thing can't happen.

 

Abrogation? "The words of the Lord are perfect in truth and justice; there is NONE who can change His words." [Sura 6:115] Also see 6:34 and 10:64. But then Allah (Muhammad?) sees the need to exchange some of them for "better ones" [Sura 2:106, 16:101]. And it is not for ignorant people to question Allah because of such practices!

 

Guiding to truth? "Say: 'God - He guides to the truth; and which is worthier to be followed ...?" [Sura 10:35] But how much is left over of this worthiness when we also read: "Allah leads astray whom he pleases, and he guides whom He pleases, ..." [Sura 14:4]. And how do we know in which of Allah's categories of pleasure we fall? How sure can a Muslim be that he is one of those guided right and not one of those led astray?

 

What is the punishment for adultery? Flogging with a 100 stripes (men and women) [24:2], "confine them to houses until death do claim them (lifelong house arrest - for the women) [4:15]. For men: "If they repent and amend, leave them alone" [4:16]. 24:2 contradicts both the procedure for women and men in Sura 4. And why is the punishment for women and men equal in Sura 24 but different in Sura 4?

 

How are the sexually immoral supposed to be punished?

 

The Problem of Divine Sovereignty, Predestination, Salvation and Human Free Will.

 

Who suffers the consequence of sins? The Qur'an declares that everyone will be held responsible only for his own sins [S. 17:13-15, 53:38-42]. Yet, the Qur'an accuses the Jews of Muhammad's day for the sins committed some 2000 years earlier by other Jews, e.g. worshipping the Golden Calf idol.

 

Will Christians enter Paradise or go to Hell? Sura 2:62 and 5:69 say "Yes", Sura 5:72 (just 3 verses later) and 3:85 say "No".

 

God alone or also men? Clear or incomprehensible? The Qur'an is "clear Arabic speech." [16:103] Yet "NONE knows its interpretation, save only Allah." [3:7]. Actually, "men of understanding do grasp it." [3:7]

 

Was Pharaoh Drowned or Saved when chasing Moses and the Israelites? Saved [10:92], drowned [28:40, 17:103, 43:55].

 

When Commanded Pharaoh the Killing of the Sons? When Moses was a Prophet and spoke God's truth to Pharaoh [40:23-25] or when he was still an infant [20:38-39]?

 

When/how are the fates determined? "The night of power is better than a thousand months. The angels and spirit descend therein, by the permission of their Lord, with all decrees." [97:3,4] "Lo! We revealed it on a blessed night." [44:3] To Muslims, the "Night of Power" is a blessed night on which fates are settled and on which everything relating to life, death, etc., which occurs throughout the year is decreed. It is said to be the night on which Allah's decrees for the year are brought down to the earthly plane. In other words, matters of creation are decreed a year at a time. Contradicting this, Sura 57:22 says, "No affliction befalls in the earth or in your selves, but it is in a Book before we create it." This means it is written in the Preserved Tablet, being totally fixed in Allah's knowledge before anyone was created. All of the above is contradicted by "And every man's fate We have fastened to his own neck." This says that man alone is responsible for what he does and what happens to him. [17:13]

 

Wine: Good or bad? Strong drink and ... are only an infamy of Satan's handiwork. [5:90, also 2:219]. Yet on the other hand in Paradise are rivers of wine [47:15,

 

also 83:22,25]. How does Satan's handiwork get into Paradise?

Good News of Painful Torture? Obviously, announcing torment and suffering to anyone is bad news, not good news. However, the Qur'an announces the good news of painful torment [3:21, 4:138, 9:3, 9:34, 31:7, 45:8, and 84:24].

 

Jinns and men created for worship or for Hell? Created only to serve God [Sura 51:56], many of them made for Hell [Sura 7:179].

 

Preferred for Hell? S. 17:70 says that Allah prefers (all) the children of Adam over many of his creatures, but S. 98:6 declares the majority of men to be the worst of creatures, many of them being even created specifically for Hell (S. 7:179).

 

Will people stay in Hell forever, or not?

 

Will all Muslims go to Hell? According to Sura 19:71 every Muslim will go to Hell (for at least some time), while another passage states that those who die in Jihad will go to Paradise immediately.

 

Will Allah disgrace Muslims? On the day of judgment Allah will not humiliate or disgrace the Prophet and those who believe in him [S. 66:8]. However, 19:71 says that everyone will enter Hell, and 3:192 states that whomsoever Allah sends to Hell, is disgraced thereby.

 

Will Jesus burn in Hell? Jesus is raised to Allah, [Sura 4:158], near stationed with him [Sura 3:45], worshiped by millions of Christians, yet Sura 21:98 says, that all that are worshiped by men besides Allah will burn in Hell together with those who worship them.

 

Is Jesus God or Not? In Sura 16:17, 20-21 and S. 25:3 we find a criterion to distinguish the true God from false gods. Yet, according to S. 3:49, 55, 4:157-158, 5:110, 6:2, and 38:71-72 Jesus satisfies the definition and should be considered true Deity.

 

Is Jesus Like Adam? S. 3:59 makes this claim, but how many aspects of likeness are there really?

 

Can there be a son without a consort? Allah cannot have a son without a consort [Sura 6:101], but Mary can have a son without a consort because that is easy for Allah [Sura 19:21].

 

Who is the father of Jesus? A more involved argument that is difficult to summarize in one sentence.

 

Begetting and Self-sufficiency A self-contradiction on account of confused terminology.

 

Could Allah have a son? Sura 39:4 affirms and Sura 6:101 denies this possibility.

Did Jesus Die already? Sura 3:144 states that all messengers died before Muhammad. But 4:158 claims that Jesus was raised to God (alive?).

 

One Creator or many? The Qur'an uses twice the phrase that Allah is "the best of creators" [23:14, 37:125]. What other creators are in mind? On the other hand, many verses make clear that Allah alone is "the creator of all things" [e.g. 39:62]. There is nothing left for others to be a creator of.

 

From among all nations or from Abraham's seed? Sura 29:27 states that all prophets came Abraham's seed. But 16:36 claims that Allah raised messengers from among every people.

 

Marrying the wives of adopted sons? It is important that Muslims can marry the divorced wives of adopted sons [Sura 33:37], yet it is forbidden to adopt sons [Sura 33:4-5].

 

Messengers were never sent to other than their own people? So it is claimed in Sura 14:4 and 30:47. However, the Bible and the Qur'an, and the Muslim traditions confirm that Jonah was sent to a different nation.

 

Messengers Were Sent Only to Their Own People? Sura 14:4 states that never was a messenger sent except in the language of his own people. Yet, the Quran itself claims that Jesus is supposed to be a sign to all people, that the Torah and Gospel are for all people, that Moses was sent to Pharaoh of Egypt, and that Muhammad is sent to all of mankind. The hadith also claim that Noah was sent to "the inhabitants of the earth".

 

Did Allah give a Greek Injil to the Jews?

 

What kind of book is the Injil?

 

Messengers Amongst the Jinns and Angels? Allah sent only men as messengers [Suras 12:109, 21:7-8, 25:20-21] but there seemingly are messengers from Jinns and Angels [6:130; 11:69,77; 22:75; etc.,].

 

Do all of God's messengers eat food?

 

A Messenger from among the beasts? Allah sent only men as messengers [Suras 12:109, 21:7-8, 25:20-21]. Yet, the Qur'an also speaks about a beast that is a messenger from Allah to men [S. 27:82].

 

Is Muhammad Only A Warner or a Prophet/Messenger?

 

Did the Messengers Perform Miracles?

 

Divinely Inspired Ignorance?

 

Which Prophets Did the Jews Kill?

 

Grammatical Errors

Muslims believe that since the Qur'an is the Word of God, it is without error in all areas.

 

The style and literary qualities of the Qur'an are found it to be defective.

 

Yet, even more troubling are the grammatical mistakes which exist within its text. Can we expect an omnipotent and omniscient God to allow such deficiencies to creep into his supposedly 'perfect' and eternal revelation? Consider the following:

In sura 2:177, the word Sabireen should be Sabiroon because of its position in the sentence (since it is a human plural, it should remain in the masculine plural form?).

 

In sura 7:160, the phrase "We divided them into twelve tribes," is written in the feminine plural: Uthnati Ashrat Asbaataan. Due to the fact that it refers to a number of people, it should be written in the masculine plural form: Uthaiy Ashara Sibtaan, as all human plurals are automatically male in Arabic.

 

In sura 4:162, the phrase "And (especially) those who establish regular prayer..." is written as al Muqiyhina al salaat, which again is in the feminine plural form, instead of the masculine plural: al Muqiyhuna al salaat (?). It is important to note that the two following phrases, "(those who) practice regular charity, and (those who) believe in Allah..." are both correctly written in the masculine human plural form.

 

In sura 5:69, the title al Sabioon, referring to the Sabians, should be written al Sabieen.

 

In sura 63:10, the phrase "I shall be" is written akun (which is in the 3rd person?). Yet since this word refers to the future (& is in the 1st person) it should be written akunu.

 

In sura 3:59, the words Kun feekunu should be written, Kun fakaana.

 

There are other grammatical errors which exist in the Qur'an as well, such as: suras 2:192; 13:28; 20:66 and the duals which replace the plurals in sura 55.

 

Abu Loren Said

It's good that you don't hate Muslims and Islam as a whole, there may be a twinkling of a chance for you.

Larry there is only One God and how can you say that the Muslims worship a different God?

Once again i'm sorry that the structure of the Holy Qur'an is not to your liking, the good news is Larry you can ask God Almighty yourself on the Day of Judgement why it wasn't written specifically for you. :)

To understand Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) and his prophecies you have read his hadiths. So many prophecies are there.

My Reply

Abu Loren. The Hadiths are more unreliable than the Quran and manipulated by man.

 

 

Abu Loren Said

That's good Larry. However, your salvation depends on accepting and believing in the Final Revelation given to mankind by Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala through his final prophet and messenger Muhammed (pbuh).

My Reply

Abu Loren on The Last Day questions will be asked of you by Jesus-

Your good religious behavior can never be enough for a Holy God. How are the scales of sin in your life? Jesus offers mercy to you.

Are you prepared to pray that God will reveal truth to you and would you accept it even if it does not fit with your Islamic religious traditions?

 

God exalted him (Jesus) to the highest place

    and gave him the name that is above every name,

 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,

    in heaven and on earth and under the earth,

 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,

    to the glory of God the Father.

Philippians 2.9-11

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

]]> Sat, 20 Oct 2012 21:46:03 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=169194#169194 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Originally posted by FriendshipAssalamu... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=169193#169193 Author: Experiential
Subject: 23672
Posted: 20 October 2012 at 9:39pm

Originally posted by Friendship

Assalamu alaika Experiential.

You said: Why should I believe Mohamads version that came 6oo years after the eye witness New testament accounts?
Response. Let us not be impartial. Probably you do not believe in the Torah. Otherwise what is the period between Adam to Noah, Noah to Abraham, Abraham to Moses, Moses to Jesus etc. Understand that you do not believe in the Qur'an implying that you do not believe in anything Allah revealed to mankind. You do not believe that you are created from a male and female. This is our standard of belief.
What is the total number of those who believed in Jesus son of Maryam in his first, second and third year of preaching?
Let me take you back to your previous assertion that the red letter pronouncing text of the bible is gimmick. Then which is that part of the bible that is not gimmick?
You said: Yeah sure. And I know the Quran better than your Ayatollah !
Response:  I am responsible to myself and not any teacher in the Hereafter. There is no such terminology or phrase in the teaching of Allah. Ayatollah means the sign of Allah. If you know the Qur'an let me have a list of your books explaining the meaning of the Qur'an in sequence of production please. Start from the baseline.
You said: Friendship. What qualifies you to know what should be in the New testament? The New Testament we currently have is the same Injil Mohamed had?

Anyway if you believe that The New Testament should only consist of only what was revealed to Jesus son of Maryam conforming to what was revealed to Moses and what was allowed in his time as an extension of the oral law, then you will see that Jesus was the Messiah that gave his life for the salvation of humanity.

Response: Commonsense rejects your claim. In the first instance there is no clear certified record of the numbers of years Jesus son of Maryam spent preaching. His experience is just limited. Secondly he was confined to a few kilometers of tribal and regional influence. His power of convincing is no longer an absolute entity - the miracles of healing i.e medical practice. This is unlike the Majestic Qur'an with an open challenge to mankind to produce its like and its meaning will never be encircled by human beings. The more you read the more you understand and it is never boring. I do not like to go into details but the story of Abraham in the Torah and its explanation by the rabbis never proved that Jesus was the messiah. It points plainly to the progeny of Ishmael.

How can something be lasting that is limited in its application? Do you know that Muhammad said: You should switch off you lighting points when you are going to sleep?  What is wrong in Muhammad disapproving the manufacture of arms?  What is wrong in Muhammad giving stipends to those in need?

Take my advice please- stop reading the whole of the Qur'an for it will mislead you. Read only a portion to convince you of the existence of only one G-d
and then switch to reading the life of Muhammad and his immediate Sahabas.
 
Friendship.


Friendship Said

Commonsense rejects your claim. In the first instance there is no clear certified record of the numbers of years Jesus son of Maryam spent preaching. His experience is just limited. Secondly he was confined to a few kilometers of tribal and regional influence. His power of convincing is no longer an absolute entity - the miracles of healing i.e medical practice.

My Reply

Mohamads experience is just limited. Secondly Mohamad was confined to a few kilometers of tribal and regional influence. Unlike Jesus where after the Resurrection, his spiritual influence and power has extended to the whole world.

 

 

Friendship Said

I do not like to go into details but the story of Abraham in the Torah and its explanation by the rabbis never proved that Jesus was the messiah. It points plainly to the progeny of Ishmael.

My Reply

You are wrong about the Torah pointing to the progeny of Ishmael. Here is the Torah –

 

Gen 17:18 -21

 And Abraham said to God, "If only Ishmael might live under your blessing!"

Then God said, "Yes, but your wife Sarah will bear you a son, and you will call him Isaac. I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his descendants after him.

And as for Ishmael, I have heard you: I will surely bless him; I will make him fruitful and will greatly increase his numbers. He will be the father of twelve rulers, and I will make him into a great nation.

But my covenant I will establish with Isaac, whom Sarah will bear to you by this time next year."

 

 

Friendship Said

How can something be lasting that is limited in its application? Do you know that Muhammad said: You should switch off you lighting points when you are going to sleep?  What is wrong in Muhammad disapproving the manufacture of arms?  What is wrong in Muhammad giving stipends to those in need?

Take my advice please- stop reading the whole of the Qur'an for it will mislead you. Read only a portion to convince you of the existence of only one G-d and then switch to reading the life of Muhammad and his immediate Sahabas.

My Reply

Firstly Christians also believe in ONE God. Secondly if the Quaran is that difficult how can it be the word of God? And thirdly the Hadiths are more inaccurate more than the Quran and have been manipulated by man.

 

 

]]> Sat, 20 Oct 2012 21:39:55 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=169193#169193 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Originally posted by A zimmi... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=169192#169192 Author: Experiential
Subject: 23672
Posted: 20 October 2012 at 9:33pm

Originally posted by
 
A zimmi has more right over a Muslim in an Islamic state. The only way is to follow the teaching of Muhammad.

[/QUOTE

 

Hello friendship. Can you please tell us how Z

 

Hello friendship. Can you please tell us how Zimmi have more rights than Muslims ?

]]> Sat, 20 Oct 2012 21:33:23 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=169192#169192 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Originally posted by FriendshipAssalamu... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=169191#169191 Author: Caringheart
Subject: 23672
Posted: 20 October 2012 at 9:02pm

Originally posted by Friendship

Assalamu alaika caringheart.

Who is that Thomas.

Friendship.
 


Greetings Friendship,

I took your question seriously and did some further research.

Didymus Judas Thomas"

Acts of Thomas is a series of episodic Acts (Latin passio) that occurred during the evangelistic mission of Judas Thomas ("Judas the Twin") to India.
"Judas, who is also called Thomas" (Eusebius, H.E. 13.12)
Thomas the Apostle, also called Didymus (meaning "Twin," as does "Thomas" in Aramaic")

This begins to make clear to me the confusion in Islam.

Didymus Thomas Judas -
Didymus - twin
Judas
In Syria some thought didymus meant Thomas was the twin of Jesus - then of course there is the name Judas which is attached... some in Islam believe Judas took the place of Jesus on the cross... Judas... twin...

It is easy to see how the presence of Thomas explains the confusion in the teaching of Islam.
There is a great deal of material that must be read, sorted, and sifted, regarding Thomas.
There is the Gospel of Thomas, a noncanonical work which some scholars believe may actually predate the writing of the Biblical gospels themselves whose opening line claims it is the work of "Didymos Judas Thomas" – who has been identified with Thomas which work was discovered in a Coptic translation.

Gospel of Thomas. "Like other apocryphal acts combining popular legend and religious propaganda, the work attempts to entertain and instruct. In addition to narratives of Thomas' adventures, its poetic and liturgical elements provide important evidence for early Syrian Christian traditions," according to the Anchor Bible Dictionary.
It seems to me also that this would have contributed to Muhammad's poetic tradition.

    "Let none read the gospel according to Thomas, for it is the work, not of one of the twelve apostles, but of one of Mani's three wicked disciples."
        —Cyril of Jerusalem, Cathechesis V (4th century)

Besides the Acts of Thomas(distinct from the gospel of Thomas) there was a widely circulated Infancy Gospel of Thomas probably written in the later 2nd century, and probably also in Syria, which relates the miraculous events and prodigies of Jesus' boyhood. This is the document which tells for the first time the familiar legend of the twelve sparrows which Jesus, at the age of five, fashioned from clay on the Sabbath day, which took wing and flew away. The earliest manuscript of this work is a 6th century one in Syriac.
Isn't this also something that Muhammad taught... about the sparrows made of clay?  and Muhammad's time was 7th century.

Because of this Thomasine tradition in that part of the world (Syria and India)... the places where Muhammad traveled... it is easy to see why there would be confusion on his part.
______________________________

Regarding scholars, I will share what I said earlier on another thread;
"In their wisdom they become fools."
It is these so called 'scholars' that lead us away from God.
______________________________

and I agree, we need to rout those that are willfully spreading terrorism in the world...
to quote what you quote Smile ... "all must join hands" ... all those who are for God and peace.  We must discern Truth from error... and abandon that which is not good.  I see that there are changes taking place, just maybe not quickly enough, and first confusion must be banished.

Salaam,
Caringheart


Edited by Caringheart - 20 October 2012 at 9:10pm]]> Sat, 20 Oct 2012 21:02:55 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=169191#169191 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Originally posted by Abu Loren Originally... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=169184#169184 Author: Larry
Subject: 23672
Posted: 20 October 2012 at 4:18pm

Originally posted by Abu Loren


Originally posted by Larry


As I said before, simply reading the Qur'an's variant "teachings" on how Muslims should see and treat the other "Peoples of the Book" leads me to the inescapable conclusion that there is great and glaring discrepancy in these "teachings." That may not matter to you but I think it is illustrative of the contrary nature of many of the statements contained in the Qur'an.


Give me an example of a contradiction in the Holy Qur'an.

*************************************************
I just did. If you are not aware of the various teachings and contradictions of the Qur'an in relation to how the "Peoples of the Book" are to be seen and treated by Muslims, then I guess you simply haven't read them.
*************************************************

Originally posted by Larry


In Christianity and Judaism, we do not "pick and choose" which Biblical stories we will "accept" or "not accept" based on our own cultural preferences, as in Islam. There is no alcohol consumption allowed in the Qur'an, but, according to the Qur'an, there is wine to drink in heaven. Just another discrepancy in the teachings of the Qur'an. In Christianity and Judaism, sin in this world is not converted into virtue in the next.


I've now just lost all respect, if any, I had for you Larry. Muslims do not pick and choose neither from the Holy Qur'an but we accept all of it as the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

As for the wine in heaven, if you read the Holy Qur'an properly you would know that the wine is not intoxicating.

Sahih International

They will exchange with one another a cup [of wine] wherein [results] no ill speech or commission of sin.
52:23

There will be circulated among them a cup [of wine] from a flowing spring,
White and delicious to the drinkers;
No bad effect is there in it, nor from it will they be intoxicated.No bad effect is there in it, nor from it will they be intoxicated.

************************************************
   "Wine" that is not "intoxicating" is called "grape juice, not "wine."
*************************************************
37:45-47

Originally posted by Larry


   In Christianity and Judaism we do not need Biblical truths to be "driven into our brains" to understand them. The Bible is written in a clear and linear form, easily understandable and in a coherent form that goes from earliest to latest. I found the structure of the Qur'an to be completely arbitrary and incoherent in form, something I wouldn't expect of a book that comes directly from the mind of God.


Indeed, you know God and how He should communicate with us and in what way.

*************************************************
In Christianity and Judaism God's truths stand up for themselves, they don't need to be "driven into our brains for us to understand them.
***************************************************

Originally posted by Larry


No, it is not. Your absurd statements that "Ibrahim and Is'mail" established the religion of the One True God in Mecca shows how far Islam has to contort itself to fit into the structure of the Biblical narratives. There is NO evidence that monotheism began in Mecca, then disappeared into idolatry, then "returned" to it's "original" form via Muhammad's "revelations." One of the proofs that Islam has a pagan past is precisely shown in the Islamic "reverence" for the former idol, the "Black Stone," the only pre-Islamic idol that was not destroyed by Muhammad. An idol is an idol, no matter how much you pretend that it isn't, and should not be treated as something "special." The pagans believed the stone "came from heaven" and was "special" also, that is why it was WORSHIPPED" at the Kaaba. The Muslims feel their "stone" is so "special" that they built it into the very wall of the supposedly original HOUSE OF GOD in Mecca. I would say that that would indeed make it "special" in the eyes of Muslims. So much for shirk.


Sahih International

And [mention, O Muhammad], when Abraham said, "My Lord, make this city [Makkah] secure and keep me and my sons away from worshipping idols. 14:35

Our Lord, I have settled some of my descendants in an uncultivated valley near Your sacred House, our Lord, that they may establish prayer. So make hearts among the people incline toward them and provide for them from the fruits that they might be grateful. 14:37

With regard to the black stone I've already told you that it existed before the Ka'baa was used to store the idols and Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) destroyed all the idols when he took control of the Ka'baa. The black stone was kept not for people to worship or adore it but simply as a reminder that it came from heaven. As I've said before Larry anything that originated in heaven must be good, right?

**************************************************
No, you're not right. The worshippers of Artemis (Cybele) in Ephesus believed that their main cult statue of the goddess "toppled" down from heaven intact. Does this mean that we should "revere" or think that the statue is somehow "special" or "good?" In Christianity and Judaism we do not "revere" meteorites or other such "special" items that "fall from heaven."
****************************************************

Originally posted by Larry


I do not have "intense hatred" towards Muslims and Islam, I simply do not believe that Islam is a legitimate "continuation" of the Biblical narrative. I do not believe that Allah is the same God that Christians and Jews worship. I have read the Qur'an with an "open mind" and still found it confusing, chaotic and unstructured in it's form and contents. And I especially do not believe that Muhammad was a real prophet of God, let alone the "seal of the prophets." In the Bible there are hundreds of specific prophecies in the Old Testament that are fulfilled in the New Testament, this is the Biblical definition of a "prophet" or "prophecy." Muhammad makes NO real prophecies in the Qur'an at all, so I am at a loss to understand WHY Muslims consider Muhammad a "prophet" at all.


It's good that you don't hate Muslims and Islam as a whole, there may be a twinkling of a chance for you.

*******************************************
I'm fine with my "chances" with God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. But thanks anyway.
*********************************************

Larry there is only One God and how can you say that the Muslims worship a different God?
Once again i'm sorry that the structure of the Holy Qur'an is not to your liking, the good news is Larry you can ask God Almighty yourself on the Day of Judgement why it wasn't written specifically for you. :)

**************************************************
   Muslims worship "Allah," the name of a pre-Islamic deity in pagan Arabia. This is not the God of the Jews or the God of the Christians, but a foreign god whose "holy" book, the Qur'an, differs substantially in numerous discrepancies with the Old Testament of the Jews and the New Testament of the Christians.
   The Hindus, Buddhists, Zoroastrians, and other religions believe that their "god" is the same as your God, Allah. Does that make their "god" also true?
   And I find it hard to believe that God Himself would address His followers with a book such as the Qur'an that has so many errors and inconsistencies within it.
***************************************************

*************************************************

To understand Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) and his prophecies you have read his hadiths. So many prophecies are there.

**************************************************
   The "hadith" are later "recollections" of people regarding the life or words of Muhammad. If Muhammad is truly a great "prophet" why are his "prophecies" not found in the Qur'an itself, but only in later "stories" concerning him after his death? The Old and New Testaments do not require "hadith" to reconcile contradictions and discrepancies within their actual holy texts, but Islam does require them.
****************************************************

Originally posted by Larry


I like the person that I am now, thanks anyway.


That's good Larry. However, your salvation depends on accepting and believing in the Final Revelation given to mankind by Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala through his final prophet and messenger Muhammed (pbuh).


****************************************************
   No, actually it does NOT. I do not believe that Muhammad was a true "prophet" of any kind, and I sure do not believe that the Qur'an is God's "final" word to mankind.
****************************************************

Larry

Edited by Larry - 20 October 2012 at 4:22pm]]> Sat, 20 Oct 2012 16:18:02 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=169184#169184 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Assalamu alaika caringheart.The... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=169175#169175 Author: Friendship
Subject: 23672
Posted: 20 October 2012 at 4:18am

Assalamu alaika caringheart.

The picture is becoming clearer. Everything that a Christian said about Muhammad is false. But Christianity at that time was  in  tune with the Torah. The second book of Luke is the book of Acts. Let us get our facts straight. Who is that Thomas.
Caringherat, are you saying that Professor Wilfred Cantwell Smith and all those 19th century professors who wrote denying 'Christianity' are unintelligent and that they do not deserve to be given the seat of professorship? What of Professor William Muir?
The world should come out now and spell those spreading terrorism in the world? President Regan said that the problem of the world is education. We are trying to educate you and you are denying that which is certainly the prescription of our problem. Recently Professor Ession in his book 'The Future of Islam' argued that Peace and stability in the world is not in the hands and tongue of the followers of Muhammad Rasulullah but all must join hands. That is different from observing pilgrimage that is never done on the date observed by Muhammad, neither praying in congregation that is never done today in the manner observed by Muhammad. Every one has withheld giving charity. The West has recently forced Swiss bank to declare those keeping their richness without paying tax. I am not asking you to enforce anything that is not done according to the sunna. You have to understand that you owe it a duty to put the Muslim in their right track.  But why are you denying this? What is the use of the CIA, MOSSAD, M5, ISI etc if they can't filter those who want peace and call them to talk to challenge those perpetrating hatred tyranny and injustice.

Friendship.
 
]]> Sat, 20 Oct 2012 04:18:04 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=169175#169175 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Originally posted by FriendshipAssalamu... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=169161#169161 Author: Caringheart
Subject: 23672
Posted: 19 October 2012 at 7:34pm

Originally posted by Friendship

Assalamu alaika Larry.

Larry! Do you know the Torah version of Assalamu alaika?
Why did you not answer my historical evidence that: Muhammad as argued earlier lived with the Jews and Christians and the Syrian Christians were those who informed the then world of the arrival of that prophet to come from Arabia from what they read in the Torah and Injeel. Why is it that this history is absent in the books of history? Let us forget those issues and find away to improve out lot.

Friendship.


Greetings Friendship,

This warrants further study by you.  The Syrian Christians followed a heretical teaching of Christianity.  They were also known as the saint Thomas Christians which followed the acts of Thomas which is not an accepted teaching.

During the Crusades, distorted accounts of the Saint Thomas Christians and the Nestorian Church gave rise to the European legend of Prester John.

The early 3rd century text called Acts of Thomas is one of the New Testament apocrypha,

"Like other apocryphal acts combining popular legend and religious propaganda, the work attempts to entertain and instruct. In addition to narratives of Thomas' adventures, its poetic and liturgical elements provide important evidence for early Syrian Christian traditions," according to the Anchor Bible Dictionary.

mainstream Christian tradition rejects the Acts of Thomas as pseudepigraphical and apocryphal, and for its part, the Roman Catholic Church finally confirmed the Acts as heretical at the Council of Trent.

That Muhammad lived with Syrian Christians explains his confusion regarding what he knew and understood regarding Christianity.  He was mainly exposed to the Christian sect from Syria who did not follow a correct teaching but in fact combined local legend with it.

The difference in upbringing and distance of separation from the birthplace of the church, and the places where Jesus taught, were likely responsible for the confusion.
]]> Fri, 19 Oct 2012 19:34:38 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=169161#169161 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Assalamu alaika Larry.Larry! Do... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=169152#169152 Author: Friendship
Subject: 23672
Posted: 19 October 2012 at 12:39pm

Assalamu alaika Larry.

Larry! Do you know the Torah version of Assalamu alaika?
Why did you not answer my historical evidence that: Muhammad as argued earlier lived with the Jews and Christians and the Syrian Christians were those who informed the then world of the arrival of that prophet to come from Arabia from what they read in the Torah and Injeel. Why is it that this history is absent in the books of history? Let us forget those issues and find away to improve out lot.

Friendship.
]]> Fri, 19 Oct 2012 12:39:14 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=169152#169152 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Originally posted by Larry As... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=169148#169148 Author: Abu Loren
Subject: 23672
Posted: 19 October 2012 at 10:10am


Originally posted by Larry


As I said before, simply reading the Qur'an's variant "teachings" on how Muslims should see and treat the other "Peoples of the Book" leads me to the inescapable conclusion that there is great and glaring discrepancy in these "teachings." That may not matter to you but I think it is illustrative of the contrary nature of many of the statements contained in the Qur'an.


Give me an example of a contradiction in the Holy Qur'an.

Originally posted by Larry


In Christianity and Judaism, we do not "pick and choose" which Biblical stories we will "accept" or "not accept" based on our own cultural preferences, as in Islam. There is no alcohol consumption allowed in the Qur'an, but, according to the Qur'an, there is wine to drink in heaven. Just another discrepancy in the teachings of the Qur'an. In Christianity and Judaism, sin in this world is not converted into virtue in the next.


I've now just lost all respect, if any, I had for you Larry. Muslims do not pick and choose neither from the Holy Qur'an but we accept all of it as the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

As for the wine in heaven, if you read the Holy Qur'an properly you would know that the wine is not intoxicating.

Sahih International

They will exchange with one another a cup [of wine] wherein [results] no ill speech or commission of sin.
52:23

There will be circulated among them a cup [of wine] from a flowing spring,
White and delicious to the drinkers;
No bad effect is there in it, nor from it will they be intoxicated.No bad effect is there in it, nor from it will they be intoxicated.
37:45-47

Originally posted by Larry


   In Christianity and Judaism we do not need Biblical truths to be "driven into our brains" to understand them. The Bible is written in a clear and linear form, easily understandable and in a coherent form that goes from earliest to latest. I found the structure of the Qur'an to be completely arbitrary and incoherent in form, something I wouldn't expect of a book that comes directly from the mind of God.


Indeed, you know God and how He should communicate with us and in what way.

Originally posted by Larry


No, it is not. Your absurd statements that "Ibrahim and Is'mail" established the religion of the One True God in Mecca shows how far Islam has to contort itself to fit into the structure of the Biblical narratives. There is NO evidence that monotheism began in Mecca, then disappeared into idolatry, then "returned" to it's "original" form via Muhammad's "revelations." One of the proofs that Islam has a pagan past is precisely shown in the Islamic "reverence" for the former idol, the "Black Stone," the only pre-Islamic idol that was not destroyed by Muhammad. An idol is an idol, no matter how much you pretend that it isn't, and should not be treated as something "special." The pagans believed the stone "came from heaven" and was "special" also, that is why it was WORSHIPPED" at the Kaaba. The Muslims feel their "stone" is so "special" that they built it into the very wall of the supposedly original HOUSE OF GOD in Mecca. I would say that that would indeed make it "special" in the eyes of Muslims. So much for shirk.


Sahih International

And [mention, O Muhammad], when Abraham said, "My Lord, make this city [Makkah] secure and keep me and my sons away from worshipping idols. 14:35

Our Lord, I have settled some of my descendants in an uncultivated valley near Your sacred House, our Lord, that they may establish prayer. So make hearts among the people incline toward them and provide for them from the fruits that they might be grateful. 14:37

With regard to the black stone I've already told you that it existed before the Ka'baa was used to store the idols and Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) destroyed all the idols when he took control of the Ka'baa. The black stone was kept not for people to worship or adore it but simply as a reminder that it came from heaven. As I've said before Larry anything that originated in heaven must be good, right?

Originally posted by Larry


I do not have "intense hatred" towards Muslims and Islam, I simply do not believe that Islam is a legitimate "continuation" of the Biblical narrative. I do not believe that Allah is the same God that Christians and Jews worship. I have read the Qur'an with an "open mind" and still found it confusing, chaotic and unstructured in it's form and contents. And I especially do not believe that Muhammad was a real prophet of God, let alone the "seal of the prophets." In the Bible there are hundreds of specific prophecies in the Old Testament that are fulfilled in the New Testament, this is the Biblical definition of a "prophet" or "prophecy." Muhammad makes NO real prophecies in the Qur'an at all, so I am at a loss to understand WHY Muslims consider Muhammad a "prophet" at all.


It's good that you don't hate Muslims and Islam as a whole, there may be a twinkling of a chance for you.

Larry there is only One God and how can you say that the Muslims worship a different God?
Once again i'm sorry that the structure of the Holy Qur'an is not to your liking, the good news is Larry you can ask God Almighty yourself on the Day of Judgement why it wasn't written specifically for you. :)

To understand Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) and his prophecies you have read his hadiths. So many prophecies are there.

Originally posted by Larry


I like the person that I am now, thanks anyway.


That's good Larry. However, your salvation depends on accepting and believing in the Final Revelation given to mankind by Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala through his final prophet and messenger Muhammed (pbuh).

Edited by Abu Loren - 19 October 2012 at 10:13am]]> Fri, 19 Oct 2012 10:10:08 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=169148#169148 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Originally posted by Abu Loren Originally... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=169131#169131 Author: Larry
Subject: 23672
Posted: 18 October 2012 at 4:26pm

Originally posted by Abu Loren

Originally posted by Larry

Which "proves" the Qur'an is authentic, because the Qur'an SAYS SO? LOL!


Keep laughing Larry. We don't need proof, we believe in it because we have faith that it is from Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala. Listen to a recitation of the Holy Qur'an in Arabic Larry, and if it moves you in any way then there is still hope for you, but if it irritates you then you are being lead by satan.

****************************************
As I said before, reading the translation of the Qur'an only reaffirmed my belief that the Qur'an could not possibly be from God. And why would I want to hear a "recitation" of the Qur'an in Arabic, a language I do not speak? I prefer the Holy Bible because it remains relevant and true no matter what language it is translated into. It is the message and the truth that are important, not the "form" of the work that is being "recited."
******************************************

   
Originally posted by Larry

But an "answer" that you seem to want to avoid, hence your lack of one.     


You haven't given me a contradiction from the Holy Qur'an yet, I'm still waiting.

*******************************************
As I said before, simply reading the Qur'an's variant "teachings" on how Muslims should see and treat the other "Peoples of the Book" leads me to the inescapable conclusion that there is great and glaring discrepancy in these "teachings." That may not matter to you but I think it is illustrative of the contrary nature of many of the statements contained in the Qur'an.
**********************************************

Originally posted by Larry

Oh, I see, even some of the "stories" in the Bible are not accepted by Muslims, while others are in their entirety.
    


We only accept what has been revelaed in the Holy Qur'an therefore we don't accept stories like Prophet Nuh (pbuh) getting drunk and Prophet Lut (pbuh) having sex with his daughters.

**********************************************
In Christianity and Judaism, we do not "pick and choose" which Biblical stories we will "accept" or "not accept" based on our own cultural preferences, as in Islam. There is no alcohol consumption allowed in the Qur'an, but, according to the Qur'an, there is wine to drink in heaven. Just another discrepancy in the teachings of the Qur'an. In Christianity and Judaism, sin in this world is not converted into virtue in the next.
*************************************************

Originally posted by Larry

Maybe "simple logic" to you but it is the same old bulls**t to me.
    


Be careful Larry, we don't want to see you banned from this forum.

*************************************************
If they want to "ban" me because I say what I mean, then I don't really have much control over it, do I? I do not tailor my remarks suit the preferences of the people I argue with, just as they do not tailor their "responses" to suit my personal tastes. This "comment" in question is a common American expression when replying to things that are considered laughable or absurd.
************************************************

Originally posted by Larry


   "succinct and to the point?" The Qur'an rambles on and on, repeating itself endlessly with statement after statement saying the exact same thing. Even the story of the Israelites and Pharaoh's army is repeated a number of times. And the organization of the Qur'an and it's utter lack of a linear quality makes it almost impossible to read and very difficult to understand.
    


Larry it is repitition that drives home the message into our brain. When we study or learn something what do we do? We repeat the same thing again and again. I'm so sorry that Allah Subhana Wa T'ala didn't reveal the Holy Qur'an in a way that YOU wanted.

*********************************************
In Christianity and Judaism we do not need Biblical truths to be "driven into our brains" to understand them. The Bible is written in a clear and linear form, easily understandable and in a coherent form that goes from earliest to latest. I found the structure of the Qur'an to be completely arbitrary and incoherent in form, something I wouldn't expect of a book that comes directly from the mind of God.
**********************************************


Originally posted by Larry

People "started worshipping idols? Like the pagan Arabs BEFORE Islam? Oh, yeah, I forgot. Islam ACTUALLY came BEFORE the Arabs became pagans. But then they converted BACK to Islam! LOL! But Muhammad did not destroy every idol, he kept the "black stone" that was worshipped by the pagan Arabs. And that exact stone is venerated and adored by Muslims everywhere. Pure, unadulterated shirk.     
    


Islam started with Prophet Adam (pbuh). But to make you understand what you are saying here, Prophet Ibrahim (pbuh) and Prophet Is'mail (pbuh) establish the religion of the One True God in Mecca. then over time this became corrupted and people started to worship idols. Then Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) re-established the monotheistic religion, destroying all the idols from the Ka'baa. With regard to the 'stone' I already told you that we do not worship it in any way, shape or form. It is special in the sense that it is from heaven, anything from heaven is special right Larry?

*******************************************
No, it is not. Your absurd statements that "Ibrahim and Is'mail" established the religion of the One True God in Mecca shows how far Islam has to contort itself to fit into the structure of the Biblical narratives. There is NO evidence that monotheism began in Mecca, then disappeared into idolatry, then "returned" to it's "original" form via Muhammad's "revelations." One of the proofs that Islam has a pagan past is precisely shown in the Islamic "reverence" for the former idol, the "Black Stone," the only pre-Islamic idol that was not destroyed by Muhammad. An idol is an idol, no matter how much you pretend that it isn't, and should not be treated as something "special." The pagans believed the stone "came from heaven" and was "special" also, that is why it was WORSHIPPED" at the Kaaba. The Muslims feel their "stone" is so "special" that they built it into the very wall of the supposedly original HOUSE OF GOD in Mecca. I would say that that would indeed make it "special" in the eyes of Muslims. So much for shirk.
*********************************************

Instead of holding this intense hatred towards Muslims and Islam open your heart and try to understand what God is trying to tell you. Read the Holy Qur'an with an open mind and try to understand the final prophet to mankind by reading his hadiths.

*************************************************
I do not have "intense hatred" towards Muslims and Islam, I simply do not believe that Islam is a legitimate "continuation" of the Biblical narrative. I do not believe that Allah is the same God that Christians and Jews worship. I have read the Qur'an with an "open mind" and still found it confusing, chaotic and unstructured in it's form and contents. And I especially do not believe that Muhammad was a real prophet of God, let alone the "seal of the prophets." In the Bible there are hundreds of specific prophecies in the Old Testament that are fulfilled in the New Testament, this is the Biblical definition of a "prophet" or "prophecy." Muhammad makes NO real prophecies in the Qur'an at all, so I am at a loss to understand WHY Muslims consider Muhammad a "prophet" at all.
********************************************

Believe me Larry you will become a better human being.

*******************************************
I like the person that I am now, thanks anyway.
********************************************
Larry



Edited by Larry - 18 October 2012 at 4:31pm]]> Thu, 18 Oct 2012 16:26:36 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=169131#169131 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Originally posted by LarryWhich... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=169105#169105 Author: Abu Loren
Subject: 23672
Posted: 18 October 2012 at 3:20am

Originally posted by Larry

Which "proves" the Qur'an is authentic, because the Qur'an SAYS SO? LOL!


Keep laughing Larry. We don't need proof, we believe in it because we have faith that it is from Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala. Listen to a recitation of the Holy Qur'an in Arabic Larry, and if it moves you in any way then there is still hope for you, but if it irritates you then you are being lead by satan.

   
Originally posted by Larry

But an "answer" that you seem to want to avoid, hence your lack of one.     


You haven't given me a contradiction from the Holy Qur'an yet, I'm still waiting.

Originally posted by Larry

Oh, I see, even some of the "stories" in the Bible are not accepted by Muslims, while others are in their entirety.
    


We only accept what has been revelaed in the Holy Qur'an therefore we don't accept stories like Prophet Nuh (pbuh) getting drunk and Prophet Lut (pbuh) having sex with his daughters.

Originally posted by Larry

Maybe "simple logic" to you but it is the same old bulls**t to me.
    


Be careful Larry, we don't want to see you banned from this forum.

Originally posted by Larry


   "succinct and to the point?" The Qur'an rambles on and on, repeating itself endlessly with statement after statement saying the exact same thing. Even the story of the Israelites and Pharaoh's army is repeated a number of times. And the organization of the Qur'an and it's utter lack of a linear quality makes it almost impossible to read and very difficult to understand.
    


Larry it is repitition that drives home the message into our brain. When we study or learn something what do we do? We repeat the same thing again and again. I'm so sorry that Allah Subhana Wa T'ala didn't reveal the Holy Qur'an in a way that YOU wanted.


Originally posted by Larry

People "started worshipping idols? Like the pagan Arabs BEFORE Islam? Oh, yeah, I forgot. Islam ACTUALLY came BEFORE the Arabs became pagans. But then they converted BACK to Islam! LOL! But Muhammad did not destroy every idol, he kept the "black stone" that was worshipped by the pagan Arabs. And that exact stone is venerated and adored by Muslims everywhere. Pure, unadulterated shirk.     
    


Islam started with Prophet Adam (pbuh). But to make you understand what you are saying here, Prophet Ibrahim (pbuh) and Prophet Is'mail (pbuh) establish the religion of the One True God in Mecca. then over time this became corrupted and people started to worship idols. Then Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) re-established the monotheistic religion, destroying all the idols from the Ka'baa. With regard to the 'stone' I already told you that we do not worship it in any way, shape or form. It is special in the sense that it is from heaven, anything from heaven is special right Larry?

Instead of holding this intense hatred towards Muslims and Islam open your heart and try to understand what God is trying to tell you. Read the Holy Qur'an with an open mind and try to understand the final prophet to mankind by reading his hadiths.

Believe me Larry you will become a better human being.
]]> Thu, 18 Oct 2012 03:20:08 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=169105#169105 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Originally posted by Abu Loren Originally... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=169043#169043 Author: Larry
Subject: 23672
Posted: 15 October 2012 at 1:45pm

Originally posted by Abu Loren

Originally posted by Larry



   Oh, I see, I should beleive that Abraham was neither a "Jew" or a "Christian" but a "true Muslim Hanifa" because "Dar-us-Salam Publications" says so? LOL! Your constant use of the Qur'an to JUSTIFY your Muslim beliefs is less than surprising. The problem you have is that you do not understand that Jews and Christians take their religions every bit as seriously as you do.


Larry the Holy Qur'an contains the Words of God as
revealed to Prophet Muhammed (pbuh).

****************************************
Which "proves" the Qur'an is authentic, because the Qur'an SAYS SO? LOL!
*****************************************


   
Originally posted by Larry


     
   Find a "contradiction" in the Qur'an? That is hardly a challenge. Simply write all of the Qur'an's "instructions" on how to deal with and treat the other "Peoples of the Book" and see how many contradictions you find there. Everything from Jews and Christians (and, I might add, the pagan "Sabeans" who worshipped the moon) being seen as the same as Muslims to the prohibitions about having "kaffir" as friends, etc. The Qur'an does not seem to have the ability to settle on one interpretation considering the "People of the Book."


Not a convincing answer.

***********************************************
But an "answer" that you seem to want to avoid, hence your lack of one.
************************************************

Originally posted by Larry


   I would happily measure the truths of thew Bible against those of the Qur'an. The Old and New Testaments are almost flawless in their relation to each other concerning the flow of prophecy, etc. between the two. The prophecies of the Messiah and their fulfillment in the New Testament are a simple point. The only other "book" that supposedly continues this "tradition of prophecy and fulfillment",(dismissed by Jews and Christians), the Qur'an, has serious and manifold disagreements and contrary prophecies with the Old and New Testaments. It is the Qur'an that is flawed, imprecise and confused in relation to the Bible.


In that case, you happily accept that Prophet Nuh (pbuh) was a drunk and Prophet Lut (pbuh) had sexual relations with his daughters?

**************************************************
Oh, I see, even some of the "stories" in the Bible are not accepted by Muslims, while others are in their entirety.
****************************************************

Originally posted by Larry


   The problem you have here, again, is that, as a "third" Testament, the Qur'an, disagrees and has many contradictions with both the Old and New Testaments. And the ONLY way to justify the obvious differences between the Old and New Testaments and the Qur'an, is to claim that the first two "Testaments" are themselves "corrupted." Very convenient "explanation" for the Muslims I must say. But since Muslims cannot tell which individual verses are "corrupt" and those that are not, this "explanation" is absurd. This, however, does not stop the Muslims from using Biblical texts to "prove the truth" of the Qur'an, while rejecting ANY Biblical citations that contradict it. How convenient indeed!!!


Larry you STILL do not see. The Holy Qur'an is the Final Revelations because the Bible was corrupted by men. Simple logic. So one has to measure everything against the Holy Qur'an as it is the TRUTH.

*******************************************
Maybe "simple logic" to you but it is the same old bulls**t to me.
**********************************************

Originally posted by Larry


   As you "keep telling me" that the Bible is corrupt and the "Holy Qur'an is the Truth from God Almighty." I suppose if one is a Muslim then they would agree with your statement. Jews and Christians, however, REJECT the Qur'an as a "holy" text and consider it merely a hodge-podge of repetitive old pagan Arabian tales and beliefs, such as the Jinn, and joining them to an imprecise reading and understanding of the Bible, and calling it the "Truth from God Almighty." But you are free to believe whatever you want, that is your right. Just don't expect Jews and Christians to believe it.


Of course Larry I don't expect the Jews and the Christians to believe in the Holy Qur'an. God Almighty tells us that you won't.

*****************************************
And for good reason too, in that the Qur'an is correct.
***************************************
    
Originally posted by Larry


      Yes, I do. The Old and New Testaments were original works, that came centuries before Islam. If there is any "discrepancy" then that is the fault of the Qur'an, not the Bible.

Well Larry if the Jews nor the Christians accept the Truth that is the Holy Qur'an then there's nothing I can do. That is a personal matter between them and God Almighty.


I still don't understand your insistence that the OT was written hundreds of years before the Holy Qur'an. Of course it was, and over time it got corrupted and a new Revelations was needed for mankind.

****************************************
So say the Muslims.
******************************************

Originally posted by Larry


   I have never viewed the Qur'an as the "Truth," and don't intend to start now.


Fair enough Larry. It's your loss.

***********************************
I'll live with it, happily
*********************************

Originally posted by Larry


   
   I agree. The Qur'an does indeed USE THE SAME STORIES as in the Bible that are true. God Himself, in your words, confirms the "truth" of the Biblical stories. The fact that the Qur'an uses these exact same stories shows that the stories were originally in the Bible and were later used in the Qur'an, as was every other subject or mention that was borrowed by the Qur'an from the earlier Old and New Testaments. I suppose these stories are some of the rare UNCORRUPT matters in the Bible! LOL!


Actually, the stories in the Holy Qur'an are for clarity. It is succint and to the point. We are only told what we really need to know.

********************************************
"succinct and to the point?" The Qur'an rambles on and on, repeating itself endlessly with statement after statement saying the exact same thing. Even the story of the Israelites and Pharaoh's army is repeated a number of times. And the organization of the Qur'an and it's utter lack of a linear quality makes it almost impossible to read and very difficult to understand.
**********************************************

Originally posted by Larry


   "New Testament" means "New Covenant."

      "testament. 1. Law. a. a will, esp. one that relates to the disposition of one's personal property. 2. a COVENANT, esp. between GOD AND MAN. 3. either the New Testament or the Old Testament. to bear witness in sense, covenant.

   Actually, "Testament" does INDEED mean COVENANT and is not just a "Christian concept." You are wrong again.


Who made this New Covenant? Paul

******************************************
No, not Paul. If you look in the Bible it will tell you that it is the "New Testament of Jesus Christ." You should learn to read.
*******************************************

Originally posted by Larry


   
LOL Jesus (pbubh ) IS the Messiah because the Holy Qur'an confirms this.
   I agree. Jesus Christ is the Messiah prophecied by the Prophets of the Old Testament.


Jesus (pbuh) is the Messiah because God Almighty tells us.

****************************************
I agree with you.....for once.
************************************

Originally posted by Larry


   I have said MANY times that the name "Allah" is the name of a pre-Islamic idol that was in the Kaaba. The Kaaba, as you know, was the source of funding for Muhammad's tribe, the Quryash.   
    


The name "Allah" was used from the time of Prophet Ishmael (pbuh)and it was used for the God of Abraham (pbuh). However as time went by people started to worship idols and then started to accumulate these inside the Ka'aba at the time of Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) there were about 360 idols that were prayed to. So you can see again why they had to be destroyed.

******************************************
People "started worshipping idols? Like the pagan Arabs BEFORE Islam? Oh, yeah, I forgot. Islam ACTUALLY came BEFORE the Arabs became pagans. But then they converted BACK to Islam! LOL! But Muhammad did not destroy every idol, he kept the "black stone" that was worshipped by the pagan Arabs. And that exact stone is venerated and adored by Muslims everywhere. Pure, unadulterated shirk.
*********************************************

Originally posted by Larry


   Well, thousands of people STRUGGLE intensely to be able to "kiss" this "holy" stone. If they can't kiss it they will try to touch it, and if they cannot touch it they will point to it on their circumnambulations. I would say that comes close to the idea of adoring and "worshipping" an object. It is shirk, no matter how you describe it. Only Allah Himself is to be venerated and worshipped in ANY fashion.


The stone is kissed, touched and pointed to because it is from heaven and has no other value in Islam. If something is from heaven surely it is special right?

************************************
The pagans also said it was from "heaven." And if it did not have "value" to Islam, why cement it into the structure of the Kaaba itself? Because it DOES have a very special place among Arab Muslims as one of their former "gods." I thought that Muslims did not revere idols.
**************************************

By the way, I'm going to stop here because you just go round and round in circles.


***************************************
Yes, you do.
***************************************

Larry

Edited by Larry - 15 October 2012 at 1:50pm]]> Mon, 15 Oct 2012 13:45:10 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=169043#169043 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Originally posted by Larry Oh,... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=169029#169029 Author: Abu Loren
Subject: 23672
Posted: 15 October 2012 at 2:54am

Originally posted by Larry



   Oh, I see, I should beleive that Abraham was neither a "Jew" or a "Christian" but a "true Muslim Hanifa" because "Dar-us-Salam Publications" says so? LOL! Your constant use of the Qur'an to JUSTIFY your Muslim beliefs is less than surprising. The problem you have is that you do not understand that Jews and Christians take their religions every bit as seriously as you do.


Larry the Holy Qur'an contains the Words of God as revealed to Prophet Muhammed (pbuh).


   
Originally posted by Larry


     
   Find a "contradiction" in the Qur'an? That is hardly a challenge. Simply write all of the Qur'an's "instructions" on how to deal with and treat the other "Peoples of the Book" and see how many contradictions you find there. Everything from Jews and Christians (and, I might add, the pagan "Sabeans" who worshipped the moon) being seen as the same as Muslims to the prohibitions about having "kaffir" as friends, etc. The Qur'an does not seem to have the ability to settle on one interpretation considering the "People of the Book."


Not a convincing answer.

Originally posted by Larry


   I would happily measure the truths of thew Bible against those of the Qur'an. The Old and New Testaments are almost flawless in their relation to each other concerning the flow of prophecy, etc. between the two. The prophecies of the Messiah and their fulfillment in the New Testament are a simple point. The only other "book" that supposedly continues this "tradition of prophecy and fulfillment",(dismissed by Jews and Christians), the Qur'an, has serious and manifold disagreements and contrary prophecies with the Old and New Testaments. It is the Qur'an that is flawed, imprecise and confused in relation to the Bible.


In that case, you happily accept that Prophet Nuh (pbuh) was a drunk and Prophet Lut (pbuh) had sexual relations with his daughters?

Originally posted by Larry


   The problem you have here, again, is that, as a "third" Testament, the Qur'an, disagrees and has many contradictions with both the Old and New Testaments. And the ONLY way to justify the obvious differences between the Old and New Testaments and the Qur'an, is to claim that the first two "Testaments" are themselves "corrupted." Very convenient "explanation" for the Muslims I must say. But since Muslims cannot tell which individual verses are "corrupt" and those that are not, this "explanation" is absurd. This, however, does not stop the Muslims from using Biblical texts to "prove the truth" of the Qur'an, while rejecting ANY Biblical citations that contradict it. How convenient indeed!!!


Larry you STILL do not see. The Holy Qur'an is the Final Revelations because the Bible was corrupted by men. Simple logic. So one has to measure everything against the Holy Qur'an as it is the TRUTH.

Originally posted by Larry


   As you "keep telling me" that the Bible is corrupt and the "Holy Qur'an is the Truth from God Almighty." I suppose if one is a Muslim then they would agree with your statement. Jews and Christians, however, REJECT the Qur'an as a "holy" text and consider it merely a hodge-podge of repetitive old pagan Arabian tales and beliefs, such as the Jinn, and joining them to an imprecise reading and understanding of the Bible, and calling it the "Truth from God Almighty." But you are free to believe whatever you want, that is your right. Just don't expect Jews and Christians to believe it.


Of course Larry I don't expect the Jews and the Christians to believe in the Holy Qur'an. God Almighty tells us that you won't.
    
Originally posted by Larry


      Yes, I do. The Old and New Testaments were original works, that came centuries before Islam. If there is any "discrepancy" then that is the fault of the Qur'an, not the Bible.

Well Larry if the Jews nor the Christians accept the Truth that is the Holy Qur'an then there's nothing I can do. That is a personal matter between them and God Almighty.


I still don't understand your insistence that the OT was written hundreds of years before the Holy Qur'an. Of course it was, and over time it got corrupted and a new Revelations was needed for mankind.

Originally posted by Larry


   I have never viewed the Qur'an as the "Truth," and don't intend to start now.


Fair enough Larry. It's your loss.

Originally posted by Larry


   
   I agree. The Qur'an does indeed USE THE SAME STORIES as in the Bible that are true. God Himself, in your words, confirms the "truth" of the Biblical stories. The fact that the Qur'an uses these exact same stories shows that the stories were originally in the Bible and were later used in the Qur'an, as was every other subject or mention that was borrowed by the Qur'an from the earlier Old and New Testaments. I suppose these stories are some of the rare UNCORRUPT matters in the Bible! LOL!


Actually, the stories in the Holy Qur'an are for clarity. It is succint and to the point. We are only told what we really need to know.

Originally posted by Larry


   "New Testament" means "New Covenant."

      "testament. 1. Law. a. a will, esp. one that relates to the disposition of one's personal property. 2. a COVENANT, esp. between GOD AND MAN. 3. either the New Testament or the Old Testament. to bear witness in sense, covenant.

   Actually, "Testament" does INDEED mean COVENANT and is not just a "Christian concept." You are wrong again.


Who made this New Covenant? Paul

Originally posted by Larry


   
LOL Jesus (pbubh ) IS the Messiah because the Holy Qur'an confirms this.
   I agree. Jesus Christ is the Messiah prophecied by the Prophets of the Old Testament.


Jesus (pbuh) is the Messiah because God Almighty tells us.

Originally posted by Larry


   I have said MANY times that the name "Allah" is the name of a pre-Islamic idol that was in the Kaaba. The Kaaba, as you know, was the source of funding for Muhammad's tribe, the Quryash.   
    


The name "Allah" was used from the time of Prophet Ishmael (pbuh)and it was used for the God of Abraham (pbuh). However as time went by people started to worship idols and then started to accumulate these inside the Ka'aba at the time of Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) there were about 360 idols that were prayed to. So you can see again why they had to be destroyed.

Originally posted by Larry


   Well, thousands of people STRUGGLE intensely to be able to "kiss" this "holy" stone. If they can't kiss it they will try to touch it, and if they cannot touch it they will point to it on their circumnambulations. I would say that comes close to the idea of adoring and "worshipping" an object. It is shirk, no matter how you describe it. Only Allah Himself is to be venerated and worshipped in ANY fashion.


The stone is kissed, touched and pointed to because it is from heaven and has no other value in Islam. If something is from heaven surely it is special right?

By the way, I'm going to stop here because you just go round and round in circles.]]> Mon, 15 Oct 2012 02:54:39 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=169029#169029 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Originally posted by Abu Loren Originally... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=169011#169011 Author: Larry
Subject: 23672
Posted: 14 October 2012 at 5:07pm

Originally posted by Abu Loren


Originally posted by Larry


   I always get a laugh when a Muslim insists that the Bible is "corrupt," when it suits their purpose and authentic when it agrees with the Qur'an. In the post above by "Friendship" he quotes Matthew 5:18-19, so I suppose this means that at least MATTHEW 5:18-19 IS NOT CORRUPT.


Larry we didn't say the whole Bible is corrupt. We can't trust it because man made additions and deletions are contained therein. We know the Bible is corrupt because God Almighty tells us so.

   "God Almighty" tells you the Bible is "corrupt" because the Qur'an says so? What else would the Qur'an say? This is your proof?


Originally posted by Larry


   Let's see, I looked up "Abu Hurairah" and found this; Sunni Muslims cite Abu Hurairah as one of the most trustworthy narrators of Hadith. Shi'a Muslims reject the authenticity of most of Abu Hurairah's Hadith, considering him an "enemy" of Imam Ali, Imam Hassan and Imam Hussein. I guess who "Abu Hurairah" is depends on which sect of Islam we are talking about.


By you 'looking up' tells me that you don't know much about Islam.

   If you know ALL Biblical scholars and ancient writers of Christianity then I would say you know more than me about Christianity. Me not knowing one of many writers of "hadith" is hardly surprising. I don't believe that the "hadith" are factually correct, more of "reported" sayings and others from Muhammad passed down since the 7th century. And the main problem is that these "hadith" are REQUIRED to explain problems within the Qur'an itself. The Bible needs no sach "aids."

By the way the Shi'as are a deviant sect within Islam and if you want to debate their doctrine I suggest you find a Shi'a forum

   The Shi'ites are a "deviant" sect within Islam? Is this your PERSONAL opinion? I would imagine that the Sh'ias say the same thing about Sunnis. It surprises me that all of the Muslim on Muslim violence and killings in past centuries and currently taking place in the Islamic world are all based on the same "perfect" Qur'an.   


Originally posted by Larry


   Sorry, but "Muslim" means nothing in the Greek or Hebrew language. Your statement that "Muslim" means, "a person who has submitted his will to God Almighty." "Muslim" continues to be an Arabic word that is descriptive of a person who follows the religion of Islam and believes the Qur'an is actually divinely created.


I see Larry so there is not a word in Greek or Hebrew to mean someone who has submitted to the Will of God. If that's the case then Arabic is unique.

   There is a word in Greek and Hebrew, shown here in English translation, to mean someone who has submitted to the Will of God. In the case of Greek it is "Christian" and in Hebrew it is "Jew." Both Jews and Christians have submitted to the Will of God. In Arabic it is "Muslim."

Dar-us-Salam Publications

Ibrahim (Abraham) was neither a Jew nor a Christian, but he was a true Muslim Hanifa (Islamic Monotheism - to worship none but Allah Alone) and he was not of Al-Mushrikun

   Oh, I see, I should beleive that Abraham was neither a "Jew" or a "Christian" but a "true Muslim Hanifa" because "Dar-us-Salam Publications" says so? LOL! Your constant use of the Qur'an to JUSTIFY your Muslim beliefs is less than surprising. The problem you have is that you do not understand that Jews and Christians take their religions every bit as seriously as you do.


Originally posted by Larry


   So, your statement that the word "Jew" was only used for the "tribe of Judah," is completely untrue, all the tribes of Israel were referred to, and identified themselves as, "Jews."

   And your statement that a "Muslim" is "anyone who has submitted to the Will of God," and that "therefore, all the prophets of God were Muslims," is incorrect. Only the people who have submitted to the Will of God as "Muslims" (which you admit is an Arabic term) are believers in Islam.

   You say that "it doesn't matter when the Arabic term Muslim was first used." Well, the word "Muslim" was only used for the first time in the 7th century A.D. with the establishment of Islam as a new religion. Muslims are mentioned 0 times in the Bible.

   And, dear Abu Loren, the word "Muslim" means: "1. of or pertaining to the religion, law, or civilization of Islam. 2. An adherent of Islam."


Larry originally only the tribe of Judah was called 'Jews'. Then the name spread to the other 11 tribes of Israel.

   I showed above that your belief that only the tribe of Judah was called "Jews" is completely false. You think that by merely staing your beliefs that it should convince others that "your" religion is the only "true" one. Both Judaism and Christianity have been around far earlier than Islam. And the fact that so many subjects have been "borrowed" by the Qur'an from both Judaism and Christianity, proves that point. The problem you have is that the "final" and "seal of the prophets" Muhammad, is named NOWHERE in the ZOld or New Testaments. In this way Muhammad is unique, the only true prophet not named in the Torah or the "Injil."

You still don't understand who or what a Muslim is...look up at the example I gave above.

   No, you gave a Muslim belief of what a MUSLIM is, it has nothing to do with Greek, Hebrew or any other language outside of Arabic.

   
Originally posted by Larry


   If there is any written "work" that has MANY contradictions with the Old and New Testaments, it is the Qur'an. The Bible has been continuously studied and reinterpreted many times as new scholarship and archaeological findings come into being. The "New King James Version" of the Bible that I use differs in language used because the original King James Bible was written in archaic Elizabethan English that is no longer used. Does this mean that they "contradict" each other? There were 66 authors of the Bible and the fact that there are almost no contradictions or major changes between them shows how closely the Old and New Testaments are in form and in message. As I said, the Qur'an has SERIOUS and Manifold contradictions and differences with Biblical scripture, and if any work is deemed "unreliable" it is the Qur'an.


I challenged you to find a contradiction in the Holy Qur'an, I'm still waiting.

   Find a "contradiction" in the Qur'an? That is hardly a challenge. Simply write all of the Qur'an's "instructions" on how to deal with and treat the other "Peoples of the Book" and see how many contradictions you find there. Everything from Jews and Christians (and, I might add, the pagan "Sabeans" who worshipped the moon) being seen as the same as Muslims to the prohibitions about having "kaffir" as friends, etc. The Qur'an does not seem to have the ability to settle on one interpretation considering the "People of the Book."

This is my reply from the other day and it still stands ...
Larry it is the other way around. As the Bible is corrupt through the hands of men and the Holy Qur'an is the Truth from God, the Bible is measured against the Holy Qur'an.

   I would happily measure the truths of thew Bible against those of the Qur'an. The Old and New Testaments are almost flawless in their relation to each other concerning the flow of prophecy, etc. between the two. The prophecies of the Messiah and their fulfillment in the New Testament are a simple point. The only other "book" that supposedly continues this "tradition of prophecy and fulfillment",(dismissed by Jews and Christians), the Qur'an, has serious and manifold disagreements and contrary prophecies with the Old and New Testaments. It is the Qur'an that is flawed, imprecise and confused in relation to the Bible.

Originally posted by Larry


   Oh, I see, the Bible, which includes the Old Testament that was written THOUSANDS OF YEARS BEFORE THE QUR'AN, and the New Testament, that was written HUNDREDS OF YEARS BEFORE THE QUR'AN, is deemed "corrupt" by this very same Qur'an. It amuses me that Islam, which has taken so much of the Old and New Testaments and put their people, patriarchs, stories, etc. into the fabric of the Qur'an, now states that the text of these books has been "corrupted" by the very people who wrote it! There is a "corrupt" text here and it is called the Qjur'an.


Larry you right when you say that the Old Testament and the New Testament were written hundreds of years before the Holy Qur'an was revealed. Can't you see that this is precisely why the Holy Qur'an was revealed when it was revealed because the OT & NT became corrupt so a final revelation was needed to save mankind. As such logically, the Holy Qura'an would be revealed after the OT & the NT. You see?

   The problem you have here, again, is that, as a "third" Testament, the Qur'an, disagrees and has many contradictions with both the Old and New Testaments. And the ONLY way to justify the obvious differences between the Old and New Testaments and the Qur'an, is to claim that the first two "Testaments" are themselves "corrupted." Very convenient "explanation" for the Muslims I must say. But since Muslims cannot tell which individual verses are "corrupt" and those that are not, this "explanation" is absurd. This, however, does not stop the Muslims from using Biblical texts to "prove the truth" of the Qur'an, while rejecting ANY Biblical citations that contradict it. How convenient indeed!!!

Originally posted by Larry



   As you "keep telling me" that the Bible is corrupt and the "Holy Qur'an is the Truth from God Almighty." I suppose if one is a Muslim then they would agree with your statement. Jews and Christians, however, REJECT the Qur'an as a "holy" text and consider it merely a hodge-podge of repetitive old pagan Arabian tales and beliefs, such as the Jinn, and joining them to an imprecise reading and understanding of the Bible, and calling it the "Truth from God Almighty." But you are free to believe whatever you want, that is your right. Just don't expect Jews and Christians to believe it.


Indeed Larry the Holy Qur'an tells us that the majority of Jews and Christians would never believe in the Final Revelation to mankind.

   That is because the majority of Jews and Christians REJECT the Qur'an in it's entirety as the supposed "Final Revelation" to mankind.

   The New Testament already has the Final Revelation of God to mankind in the Book of Revelation. We need no further "input" from Muslims.


Originally posted by Larry



   You say, "Prophet Muhammad is mentioned in thje Psalms, and you need the original Hebrew script, if you can read Hebrew and it is mentioned in the Injil by Jesus and AHMED will come after Him."

   Really? Ask ANY Jew who understands Hebrew and try and tell them that their well-loved Psalms contain the ACTUAL NAME OF THE PROPHET MUHAMMAD. Don't be surprised that, after they stop laughing, the speakers of Hebrew will prove that "Prophet Muhammad" is certainly NOT in the Psalms.

   And you say that the "prophet Muhammad" is also "mentioned" in the "Injil" by Jesus and "AHMED" will come after Him." If, as you say, Jesus "mentions" the name of "AHMED" as the person who would "follow" him (600 years later), then why is the name of this "following prophet" not "Muhammad" but as "Ahmed?" Every prophet in the Bible is mentioned by their ACTUAL NAMES, it seems odd that if "Muhammad" was the actual "following prophet" of Jesus, that Jesus would know his ACTUAL NAME, as all other Biblical prophets.

   The truth of the matter is, "Prophet Muhammad," or just simply "Muhammad," is named NOWHERE in the Bible.


Larry I don't know if you know but these have been suppressed from the translations but in the original Hewbrew for OT and Greek for the NT they still exist.

Oh, I see, the "original" Hebrew and Greek of the Bible actually names the "Prophet Muhammad." It is just that those pesky Jews and Christians have "deleted" these references to the "Prophet" in order to "discredit" Islam? Let me know when you can point to any SPECIFIC reference in the Bible, in either Hebrew, Greek or Latin in the Bible, because you provide ZERO proof of these accusations. And remember, you are not using the Qur'an to do this but the actual Hebrew and Greek versions of the Bible, ANYWHERE.


Originally posted by Larry


   Actually the name "Ahmad" is nowhere in either the Old or New Testaments, perhaps you can give me a clue as to where there is a citation of the name "Ahmad" in the Bible? And, it is your statement, confirmed NOWHERE in the Old or New Testaments, that the "Holy Qur'an" is the final Testament (I think it is interesting that many Muslim writers use the term "Testament" when describing the Qur'an. Is this to make the Qur'an appear to be a "legitimate" successor of the Old and New Testaments?)


Consult a scholar Larry. Well the Holy Qur'an is the LAST AND FINAL TESTAMENT FROM GOD. Why should it b legitimised when it is from God Almighty? Who legitimises God's words?

   Consult a scholar? About what? That the Qur'an is the LAST AND FINAL TESTAMENT FROM GOD? The only "scholars" I could use to "prove" your points is an ISLAMIC SCHOLAR. And who "legitimizes" God's Word? The Qur'an? Yeah, right. As usual, very "convenient explanation" to "prove" the "truth" of the Qur'an. What else would a Muslim say? Ask Jews and Christians the same questions about their religions, I would suggest that they would agree with you that THEIR TRUE WORD OF GOD is in either the Jewish Old Testament or Christian New Testament. Not exactly "proof" then, is it?

Originally posted by Larry


   And, as usual, when asked to simply show me WHERE in the Bible the Prophet Muhammad is mentioned, you simply say that I "wouldn't know where to look as I am "not a scholar." Oh, I see, I need to be a "scholar" to find Muhammad's name in the Bible? If Muhammad's name IS in the Bible you would tell me where, since it is your statement, but since "Prophet Muhammad" is NOT mentioned in the Bible, yiou cannot answer the question. As usual.


Deuteronomy 18:18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

   This means nothing. It does not name the "Prophet" it could be anyone. Why, if this really meant Muhammad, did the Old Testament text not name him SPECIFICALLY, just like EVERY OTHER "Prophet" is named in the Old Testament? The reason? Because Muhammad is NOT a true Prophet according to both the Old and New Testaments and is named nowhere in their texts (no matter how much you pretend that it is).

In the Song of Solomon Chapter 5 verse 16 Prophet Muhammed is mentioned in Hebrew but taken out in the English translation.

   Simply show me where the Hebrew word meaning, specifically, the "Prophet Muhammad" is named in the Hebrew Old Testament? I think the Jews would be FASCINATED by your "proof" that their religion has been wrong for three thousand years, and they never noticed it! LOL!

Song of Solomon 5:16 His mouth is most sweet: yea, he is altogether lovely. This is my beloved, and this is my friend, O daughters of Jerusalem.

   The one thing you forgot to mention is that in the Song of Solomon, the "beloved" is NOT of the "daughters of Jerusalem, but of the "Shulamite" who is speaking to the daughters of Jerusalem.

   You did not finish, Song of Solomon 6:1,

   "The Daughters of Jerusalem,
   Where has your beloved gone,
   O fairest among women?
   Where has your beloved turned aside,
   That we may seek him with you?"

Transliteration

Hikko Mamittakim we kullo Mohammadim zehdoodeh wa zehraeebayna Jerusalem.

   I notice that you use the word "transliterated" to describe your "translation." The word "Mohammadim" (a name) is conspicuously absent, either in the English translation or the Hebrew original. You are completely wrong about this, as usual.

By the way im after Muhammed stresses respect in Hebrew.

   I have no idea of what you mean. Do you mean that Muhammad has "respect" for the Hebrew language?

JOHN 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

   The "comforter" is named in the citations, it is the "Spirit of God."

JOHN 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

The Greek word Paracletos (Comforter)was mistakenly used rather than the word Periclytos (Advocate) which in Hebrew mean AHMED.

   "The Greek word "Paracletos" (Comforter) is MISTAKENLY used rather than the word "Periclytos" (Advocate) which in Hebrew mean Ahmed."

   Now you are a better speaker and writer of ancient Greek than the ancient Greeks. Do you imagine that these "Greeks" would make such a fundamental error of meaning in their own holy text? There is no MISTAKE, except yours. And "Advocate" does not mean "Ahmed" in Hebrew, it means ADVOCATE. "Ahmed" is a name, not a title such as "comforter" or "advocate." Your ignorance astonishes me.

Sahih International

And [mention] when Jesus, the son of Mary, said, "O children of Israel, indeed I am the messenger of Allah to you confirming what came before me of the Torah and bringing good tidings of a messenger to come after me, whose name is Ahmad." But when he came to them with clear evidences, they said, "This is obvious magic." 61:6

   A quote from the Qur'an! How original! This is your proof? The name "Ahmad" in the Qur'an means the "Prophet Muhammad?" Why does not the Qur'an write the name of this "messenger" as Muhammad?

Originally posted by Larry


   And you also say that the "only Truth we (Muslims) measure what it (Qur'an) says against the falsehood that is contained in the Bible."

   I always get a laugh at statements like this because Muslims make a practice of "selectively" using the Old and New Testaments to "prove" the authenticity of the Qur'an. Muslims will use any Biblical statement as "proof" of the Qur'an's "holiness" if the statement supports their beliefs contained in the Qur'an. But, whenever a Biblical citation CONTRADICTS what the Qur'an says, that citation is immediately dismissed as "corrupted text."


Larry we have to measure the Truth from falsehood and the only way is that we look in the Qur'an and if there's a conflict with a passage in the Bible then that passage is false.

   Oh, I see, if "we" are measuring "truth from falsehood" in the Qur'an, and it conflicts with the Bible, then that passage is "false." Usually in cases like this, the original source, the Bible, is used to detect later alterations or changes in the meaning. But, as usual, in Islam this is coompletely the opposite. A "confirmation of the "truth" of the Qur'an is here provided BY THE QUR'AN! I am singularly unimpressed.

Originally posted by Larry


   Yes, all you do is quote from the "Holy Qur'an" which neither Jews nor Christians accept as coming from God.

And, you "use the verses from the Old and New Testaments to "highlight" the discrepancy contained within."
Originally posted by Larry



   Yes, I do. The Old and New Testaments were original works, that came centuries before Islam. If there is any "discrepancy" then that is the fault of the Qur'an, not the Bible.

Well Larry if the Jews nor the Christians accept the Truth that is the Holy Qur'an then there's nothing I can do. That is a personal matter between them and God Almighty.

   I have never viewed the Qur'an as the "Truth," and don't intend to start now.

Originally posted by Larry


   As I have said before, Muslims like you use the Bible to "prove" the "truth" of Islam, but whenever you find a "discrepancy" between the Qur'an and the Bible, you simply reject it as "corrupt." Using the "Qur'an" to prove the "truth" of Islam is just like a Jew or Christian using the Old and New Testaments to "prove" that the "Qur'an" is not only a plagiarist of Biblical text, but is a "corrupted" plagiarism of the Bible.
Originally posted by Larry



Actually the Holy Qur'an uses the same stories as in the Bible that are true. You will the stories of Prophets Nuh, Moses, David, Solomon etc (peace be upon them all) because God Almighty is confirming that they are the truth.

   I agree. The Qur'an does indeed USE THE SAME STORIES as in the Bible that are true. God Himself, in your words, confirms the "truth" of the Biblical stories. The fact that the Qur'an uses these exact same stories shows that the stories were originally in the Bible and were later used in the Qur'an, as was every other subject or mention that was borrowed by the Qur'an from the earlier Old and New Testaments. I suppose these stories are some of the rare UNCORRUPT matters in the Bible! LOL!

Originally posted by Larry


   The "alleged" prophecies concerning Jesus Christ as the Messiah are not only in the Book of Isaiah. Although the prophecies of Isaiah concerning the Messiah were made 700 years before the birth of Jesus Christ. The entire New Testament of Jesus Christ is exactly that, the New "Covenant" between God and His people. And the Bible is explicit in it's writings concerning the crucifixion, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ as the Son of God. Muhammad is NOT mentioned even ONCE in the Old or New Tetaments. The only source for Muhammad being a "prophet" is in the Qur'an, which was supposedly "revealed' to Muhammad himself, so there is no mystery as to why Muhammad is mentioned as a "prophet" in the Qur'an only.


The New Covenant you mention is a Christian concept and it is false.

   "New Testament" means "New Covenant."

   Random House College Dictionary.

   "testament. 1. Law. a. a will, esp. one that relates to the disposition of one's personal property. 2. a COVENANT, esp. between GOD AND MAN. 3. either the New Testament or the Old Testament. to bear witness in sense, covenant.

   Actually, "Testament" does INDEED mean COVENANT and is not just a "Christian concept." You are wrong again.

Originally posted by Larry


   No, you haven't answered why Muhammad is not mentioned in the Bible (except in some secret place that, evidently, only "Muslims" know how to find!


See above.

   I repeat my challenge to you. You made the claim, it is up to you to prove that claim, not me.


Originally posted by Larry


   Oh, I see, any reference in the Old Testament to the Messiah (or Masih) is only connected to Jesus Christ by "association?"

   While, supposedly, the "Prophet Muhammad" is mentioned specifically (and not simply by association) in the Old Testament and the New Testament?

   But the "Prophet Muhammad" is NOT mentioned in either the Old or New Testaments. Perhaps you can give me the Biblical citations for where the "Prophet Muhammad" is specifically named in both the Old and New Testaments.


Let's move on Larry you seem to have a fixation with the mentioning of Prophet Muhammed in the Bible.

   The only person here who has a "fixation" with the "mentioning" of the Prophet Muhammad in the Bible is YOU.


Originally posted by Larry


   Actually the word "Messiah" is mentioned in Daniel 9:25 and John 1:41.

   So does this mean that Jesus can't be the "Messiah" because the "Messiah" is mentioned only two times? And, by the way, what does "Masih" mean when used in the Qur'an?


LOL Jesus (pbubh ) IS the Messiah because the Holy Qur'an confirms this.

   I agree. Jesus Christ is the Messiah prophecied by the Prophets of the Old Testament.

Same Dictionary, "Messiah, noun. 1. the promised and expected deliverer of the Jewish people. 2. Jesus Christ, regarded by Christians as fulfilling this promise and expectation."

Originally posted by Larry


   I have said MANY times that the name "Allah" is the name of a pre-Islamic idol that was in the Kaaba. The Kaaba, as you know, was the source of funding for Muhammad's tribe, the Quryash.

   "God told Abraham and Ishmael to "build the house" so that "Muslims can "circumnanbulate" it during the Hajj?

   Nowhere in the Bible do Abraham and Ishmael come in to contact with each other after Hagar and Ishmael were driven off by Abraham after the birth of Isaac. And Abraham NEVER went to Southern Arabia to "build the house" or any other "structure." This is simply another case of Muslims trying to connect a Biblical Patriarch, Abraham, with the pre-Islamic pagan shrine, the Kaaba, which was holy for Muhammad's own family and tribe.

   Abrahams's journeys are well documented in the Old Testament.


Your statements are typical of an ignorant Christian who thinks that because the Bible doesn't document Hagar's and Ishmael's plight then anything else is not acceptable. Prophet Ibrahim (pbuh) visited his son Ishmael in Mecca, it was God Almighty who ordered them to build the Ka'baa.

   Oh, I see, because the Bible doesn't DOCUMENT Hagar's and Ishmaels plight then anything else is not acceptable." But the Bible DOES document the story of Hagar and Abraham, and their son Ishmael. It is the Bible which records Hagar and Ishmael's banishment from Abraham's home. The Bible does NOT mention anything about Abraham was 99 years old when Isaac was born, I don't think he would be in the position to make a very long journey down to Southern Arabia to "build the Kaaba" or anything else. The Bible had followed ALL of Abraham's travels from the beginning, why would it stop now? And, by the way, the Kaaba was not built by Abraham and Ishmael, it was built by the pagan Arabs to house their idols. There were other Kaaba's built in different cities in Arabia at the same time. This is just another attempt to "graft" an Islamic narrative onto a known Biblical story.

Originally posted by Larry


   And you are wrong concerning your very own "black stone" the former idol in the Kaaba. The story is that the "black" stone originally came down as white, and it was turned black by the sins of mankind. I thought you would have known that.


LOL ok Larry but the black stone is not worshipped by Muslims.

   Well, thousands of people STRUGGLE intensely to be able to "kiss" this "holy" stone. If they can't kiss it they will try to touch it, and if they cannot touch it they will point to it on their circumnambulations. I would say that comes close to the idea of adoring and "worshipping" an object. It is shirk, no matter how you describe it. Only Allah Himself is to be venerated and worshipped in ANY fashion.

Originally posted by Larry


   No matter "who" kissed the "black stone", it was still a former pagan idol in the Kaaba. And it was purposely built into the corner of the "Holy Kaaba, so giving it "reverential treatment" and status is actually shirk. Or does it mean that something that Muhammad "kissed" takes on such importance that it is built into the "House" of Allah, Himself??


Well if it was sent from heaven then it must be very important. It wasn't an idol that was worshipped, but it was always there. Muslims don't worship the black stone.

   "Well, if it was sent from heaven then it must be very important."

   The pagan Arabs believed the "black stone" was "sent from heaven" and they made an idol of it. How does that differ from the beliefs of the Muslims? Muhammad kept this former IDOL when he destroyed all the idols of the pagan Kaaba, but he kept the "black stone" idol and Muslims continue to venerate this "important" ex-idol to this day.


Originally posted by Larry


   I find it highly interesting that even with all the historical and religious facts concerning the founding and beliefs contained within Islam, that you cannot directly address even ONE of the points I made. You simply dismiss (a common habit among some Muslims) everything as being only my "opinion." I realize that the statements I made above would be difficult for some Muslims to explain, causing you to make a swift denial of those historical facts and brush them off as "opinion."


What was your points again?

   Is that an answer? You seem to have few to offer so I understand your readiness to evade answering the difficult questions.

Originally posted by Larry

Do you mean before or after Uthman's "standardization" of the "Holy Qur'an and the destruction by burning of ALL other Qur'anic texts?" For some reason, later Islamic "authorities" thought it was a good idea to destroy the original Qur'an, written within two years of Muhammad's death, what was it they needed to hide? Oh, yeah, I forgot, it had bad "punctuation."
   


You keep talking about 'standardisation' the Holy Qur'an was simply collected together and agreed upon the final outcome.

Originally posted by Larry


"Same answer as above? You said nothing about Ibn Masud's and Ubayy B. Ka'ab's manuscripts of the Qur'an that are not identical to "today's" Qur'an. Masud's "Kufan Codex" still survives because Ibn Masud did not want it destroyed, even if Uthman got him to "agree" to the new "standardized" Qur'an.


Again you talk about 'standardisation.' No such thing.

   What else would you call an action to "standardize" the form of a document that is followed by the destruction of any other versions of that document?
   

Originally posted by Larry


   No, Abu Loren, Christians do not think that they are an "offshoot" of the "Israelites." The "Israelites" are a people from a specific location who practiced Judaism as their religion. You should learn to know the difference.

   But, Christians and Jews do have much in common because Christianity arose out of Judaism, Jesus Christ Himself was a Jew, as were his family and followers.


You may not think that you are an offshoot of the Israelites but there are many who do.

   Wrong again. Like I said, Christianity came out of Judaism, that is the connection. Christians do not believe they are "Israelites".


Larry

   "See" your previous reply? Do you mean the one where yo said that there are foreign words in the Qur'an because the Arabic language did not have a way to express or write words in "pure" Arabic?"


Of course there are foreign words in the Holy Qur'an. As I've stated when there are no words in your own language you use the original 'word'. For example, in English you use the word 'shampoo' which is taken from the Hindi language and it means to massage.

   Yes, English and all other languages have foreign words or meanings, but then there are not any "shampoo" bottles written on tablets in heaven. I am saying that the words of the Qur'an are SPECIFICALLY foreign words, not meanings. The Qur'an says that it is written in "Arabic pure."

Larry
   It may be "not a big deal" to you, but to someone trying to find answers it is a "big deal" and far from petty.


Larry please. All the answers that you need are in the Holy Qur'an. Go and read my friend.

   I have read the ENTIRE Qur'an here on Islamicity and it only deepened my views that the Qur'an is far from a work sent directly from God to mankind. The organization of the surahs and the confused and repetitious forms of those surahs are not what I would expect from a Divine text. There is no linear story or organization. It is simply a series of statements made again and again and there is one message, There is no God but Allah, and the Messenger of Allah is Muhammad, and if you don't follow the rules of Allah or of Muhammad himself as the "Messenger" you are going to burn in hell. It also describes the amount (sometimes 20%) of "tribute" received by the Muslims from conquered people that was to be paid to Muhammad and his immediate family. Why would God take time to specify the amount of money to be paid to the "Messenger" and his family? There are many examples of this in the Qur'an where God intervenes in the earthly life, including wives, concubines and female prisoners of his "prophet?"   

Larry
   Am I correct in the above reply concerning the "perfection" of the Qur'an?
[/QUOTE]

Larry the Holy Qur'an is perfection itself because it is from God. Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala challenges you to produce a verse like it.

   What does that mean? Produce a surah better than in the Qur'an? Like I said, the surahs of the Qur'an are written in a confusing and arbitrary way, and who will "judge" whether someone else's surah is as good as any in the Qur'an? It is an empty challenge with no meaning or possible answer, because Muslims believe in the Qur'an word-for-word, how else would they judge a surah written by someone not a Muslim?

Larry [/QUOTE]
   Then why did Uthman need to "standardize" the Qur'an because there were different versions being used in various places, such as Ibn Masud's "Kufan Codex." And, if the only differences in the original Qur'an, "Hafsah's Codex," were simply minor points of punctuation and emphasis, was it necessary to destroy this ONE ORIGINAL QUR'AN? There would only be ONE document so the fear that others would have different understandings of the Qur'an by reading this ONE, ORIGINAL QUR'AN, would be groundless.

   Sorry, I just don't buy your "explanations, or lack of them, in this entire conversation. If you want to believe in fairy tales then that is your right, just don't expect others to share your questionable beliefs and explanations, just as you do not accept their beliefs and points.
[/QUOTE]

LOl more 'standardisation'.

   We have a saying, "If the shoe fits, wear it."

Larry [/QUOTE]
   Ah yes, the famous "final version" that was agreed to by "all." My question remains. Why did they need to have a "final" version if the Qur'an was perfect in all ways? The reason was was that there were differing manuscripts, particularly the onesof Ubayy B. Ka'ab and Ibn Masud (Kufan Codex)
[/QUOTE]

I'm now yawning Larry. It took me a long time to write this so don't spoil it with your 'standardisation.'[/QUOTE]

   You are the one who talked about "Final Versions" of the Qur'an, not me. There were discrepancies in various written copies of the Qur'an and Uthman made the decision to create only one "official" version and all other versions were destroyed. That sounds like "standadization" to me.

   Sorry to keep you up, hope you get over your yawnings, maybe then you could make sense. And try and stay away from analyzing and interpreting the languages of others such as ancient Greek, Hebrew and Aramaic, you're not very good at it.

   This is my "Final Reply" to your points, I am tired of having to answer the same questions and statements over and over again.

Larry

Edited by Larry - 14 October 2012 at 5:41pm]]> Sun, 14 Oct 2012 17:07:40 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=169011#169011 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Assalamu alaika Larry.Larry! Please... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=169006#169006 Author: Friendship
Subject: 23672
Posted: 14 October 2012 at 2:39pm

Assalamu alaika Larry.

Larry! Please kindly understand that this forum is meant to find an alternative way to peaceful coexistence. It is advertising for those who understood the Message revealed by the Supreme Being that it is for peaceful coexistence. Its past has proved to be so at least in the life history of Muhammad. If the way of life lead by Jesus was that of chaos Muhammad never told that in the Qur'an. The most important controversy that is rejected by Moses and all prophets after is on the question of Jesus as the son of God. Allah informs that each nation had its own law. We  are not contending to that. It cannot be a law specific to Jesus that Allah has a son and that position was given to him. Certainly Matthew 5:18-19 clears that corruption for there is no word in the Torah that Allah will one day have a son.
Muhammad as argued earlier lived with the Jews and Christians and the Syrian Christians were those who informed the then world of the arrival of that prophet to come from Arabia from what they read in the Torah and Injeel. Why is it that this history is absent in the books of history? Let us forget those issues and find away to improve out lot.

Friendship.


]]> Sun, 14 Oct 2012 14:39:32 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=169006#169006 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Originally posted by Larry I... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=169004#169004 Author: Abu Loren
Subject: 23672
Posted: 14 October 2012 at 12:45pm


Originally posted by Larry


   I always get a laugh when a Muslim insists that the Bible is "corrupt," when it suits their purpose and authentic when it agrees with the Qur'an. In the post above by "Friendship" he quotes Matthew 5:18-19, so I suppose this means that at least MATTHEW 5:18-19 IS NOT CORRUPT.


Larry we didn't say the whole Bible is corrupt. We can't trust it because man made additions and deletions are contained therein. We know the Bible is corrupt because God Almighty tells us so.


Originally posted by Larry


   Let's see, I looked up "Abu Hurairah" and found this; Sunni Muslims cite Abu Hurairah as one of the most trustworthy narrators of Hadith. Shi'a Muslims reject the authenticity of most of Abu Hurairah's Hadith, considering him an "enemy" of Imam Ali, Imam Hassan and Imam Hussein. I guess who "Abu Hurairah" is depends on which sect of Islam we are talking about.


By you 'looking up' tells me that you don't know much about Islam.

By the way the Shi'as are a deviant sect within Islam and if you want to debate their doctrine I suggest you find a Shi'a forum


Originally posted by Larry


   Sorry, but "Muslim" means nothing in the Greek or Hebrew language. Your statement that "Muslim" means, "a person who has submitted his will to God Almighty." "Muslim" continues to be an Arabic word that is descriptive of a person who follows the religion of Islam and believes the Qur'an is actually divinely created.


I see Larry so there is not a word in Greek or Hebrew to mean someone who has submitted to the Will of God. If that's the case then Arabic is unique.

Dar-us-Salam Publications

Ibrahim (Abraham) was neither a Jew nor a Christian, but he was a true Muslim Hanifa (Islamic Monotheism - to worship none but Allah Alone) and he was not of Al-Mushrikun


Originally posted by Larry


   So, your statement that the word "Jew" was only used for the "tribe of Judah," is completely untrue, all the tribes of Israel were referred to, and identified themselves as, "Jews."

   And your statement that a "Muslim" is "anyone who has submitted to the Will of God," and that "therefore, all the prophets of God were Muslims," is incorrect. Only the people who have submitted to the Will of God as "Muslims" (which you admit is an Arabic term) are believers in Islam.

   You say that "it doesn't matter when the Arabic term Muslim was first used." Well, the word "Muslim" was only used for the first time in the 7th century A.D. with the establishment of Islam as a new religion. Muslims are mentioned 0 times in the Bible.

   And, dear Abu Loren, the word "Muslim" means: "1. of or pertaining to the religion, law, or civilization of Islam. 2. An adherent of Islam."


Larry originally only the tribe of Judah was called 'Jews'. Then the name spread to the other 11 tribes of Israel.

You still don't understand who or what a Muslim is...look up at the example I gave above.

   
Originally posted by Larry


   If there is any written "work" that has MANY contradictions with the Old and New Testaments, it is the Qur'an. The Bible has been continuously studied and reinterpreted many times as new scholarship and archaeological findings come into being. The "New King James Version" of the Bible that I use differs in language used because the original King James Bible was written in archaic Elizabethan English that is no longer used. Does this mean that they "contradict" each other? There were 66 authors of the Bible and the fact that there are almost no contradictions or major changes between them shows how closely the Old and New Testaments are in form and in message. As I said, the Qur'an has SERIOUS and Manifold contradictions and differences with Biblical scripture, and if any work is deemed "unreliable" it is the Qur'an.


I challenged you to find a contradiction in the Holy Qur'an, I'm still waiting.

This is my reply from the other day and it still stands ...
Larry it is the other way around. As the Bible is corrupt through the hands of men and the Holy Qur'an is the Truth from God, the Bible is measured against the Holy Qur'an.

Originally posted by Larry


   Oh, I see, the Bible, which includes the Old Testament that was written THOUSANDS OF YEARS BEFORE THE QUR'AN, and the New Testament, that was written HUNDREDS OF YEARS BEFORE THE QUR'AN, is deemed "corrupt" by this very same Qur'an. It amuses me that Islam, which has taken so much of the Old and New Testaments and put their people, patriarchs, stories, etc. into the fabric of the Qur'an, now states that the text of these books has been "corrupted" by the very people who wrote it! There is a "corrupt" text here and it is called the Qjur'an.


Larry you right when you say that the Old Testament and the New Testament were written hundreds of years before the Holy Qur'an was revealed. Can't you see that this is precisely why the Holy Qur'an was revealed when it was revealed because the OT & NT became corrupt so a final revelation was needed to save mankind. As such logically, the Holy Qura'an would be revealed after the OT & the NT. You see?

Originally posted by Larry



   As you "keep telling me" that the Bible is corrupt and the "Holy Qur'an is the Truth from God Almighty." I suppose if one is a Muslim then they would agree with your statement. Jews and Christians, however, REJECT the Qur'an as a "holy" text and consider it merely a hodge-podge of repetitive old pagan Arabian tales and beliefs, such as the Jinn, and joining them to an imprecise reading and understanding of the Bible, and calling it the "Truth from God Almighty." But you are free to believe whatever you want, that is your right. Just don't expect Jews and Christians to believe it.


Indeed Larry the Holy Qur'an tells us that the majority of Jews and Christians would never believe in the Final Revelation to mankind.


Originally posted by Larry



   You say, "Prophet Muhammad is mentioned in thje Psalms, and you need the original Hebrew script, if you can read Hebrew and it is mentioned in the Injil by Jesus and AHMED will come after Him."

   Really? Ask ANY Jew who understands Hebrew and try and tell them that their well-loved Psalms contain the ACTUAL NAME OF THE PROPHET MUHAMMAD. Don't be surprised that, after they stop laughing, the speakers of Hebrew will prove that "Prophet Muhammad" is certainly NOT in the Psalms.

   And you say that the "prophet Muhammad" is also "mentioned" in the "Injil" by Jesus and "AHMED" will come after Him." If, as you say, Jesus "mentions" the name of "AHMED" as the person who would "follow" him (600 years later), then why is the name of this "following prophet" not "Muhammad" but as "Ahmed?" Every prophet in the Bible is mentioned by their ACTUAL NAMES, it seems odd that if "Muhammad" was the actual "following prophet" of Jesus, that Jesus would know his ACTUAL NAME, as all other Biblical prophets.

   The truth of the matter is, "Prophet Muhammad," or just simply "Muhammad," is named NOWHERE in the Bible.


Larry I don't know if you know but these have been suppressed from the translations but in the original Hewbrew for OT and Greek for the NT they still exist.


Originally posted by Larry


   Actually the name "Ahmad" is nowhere in either the Old or New Testaments, perhaps you can give me a clue as to where there is a citation of the name "Ahmad" in the Bible? And, it is your statement, confirmed NOWHERE in the Old or New Testaments, that the "Holy Qur'an" is the final Testament (I think it is interesting that many Muslim writers use the term "Testament" when describing the Qur'an. Is this to make the Qur'an appear to be a "legitimate" successor of the Old and New Testaments?)


Consult a scholar Larry. Well the Holy Qur'an is the LAST AND FINAL TESTAMENT FROM GOD. Why should it b legitimised when it is from God Almighty? Who legitimises God's words?

Originally posted by Larry


   And, as usual, when asked to simply show me WHERE in the Bible the Prophet Muhammad is mentioned, you simply say that I "wouldn't know where to look as I am "not a scholar." Oh, I see, I need to be a "scholar" to find Muhammad's name in the Bible? If Muhammad's name IS in the Bible you would tell me where, since it is your statement, but since "Prophet Muhammad" is NOT mentioned in the Bible, yiou cannot answer the question. As usual.


Deuteronomy 18:18 I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him.

In the Song of Solomon Chapter 5 verse 16 Prophet Muhammed is mentioned in Hebrew but taken out in the English translation.

Song of Solomon 5:16 His mouth is most sweet: yea, he is altogether lovely. This is my beloved, and this is my friend, O daughters of Jerusalem.

Transliteration

Hikko Mamittakim we kullo Mohammadim zehdoodeh wa zehraeebayna Jerusalem.

By the way im after Muhammed stresses respect in Hebrew.

JOHN 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

JOHN 15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

The Greek word Paracletos (Comforter)was mistakenly used rather than the word Periclytos (Advocate) which in Hebrew mean AHMED.

Sahih International

And [mention] when Jesus, the son of Mary, said, "O children of Israel, indeed I am the messenger of Allah to you confirming what came before me of the Torah and bringing good tidings of a messenger to come after me, whose name is Ahmad." But when he came to them with clear evidences, they said, "This is obvious magic." 61:6

Originally posted by Larry


   And you also say that the "only Truth we (Muslims) measure what it (Qur'an) says against the falsehood that is contained in the Bible."

   I always get a laugh at statements like this because Muslims make a practice of "selectively" using the Old and New Testaments to "prove" the authenticity of the Qur'an. Muslims will use any Biblical statement as "proof" of the Qur'an's "holiness" if the statement supports their beliefs contained in the Qur'an. But, whenever a Biblical citation CONTRADICTS what the Qur'an says, that citation is immediately dismissed as "corrupted text."


Larry we have to measure the Truth from falsehood and the only way is that we look in the Qur'an and if there's a conflict with a passage in the Bible then that passage is false.

Originally posted by Larry


   Yes, all you do is quote from the "Holy Qur'an" which neither Jews nor Christians accept as coming from God.

And, you "use the verses from the Old and New Testaments to "highlight" the discrepancy contained within."
Originally posted by Larry



Well Larry if the Jews nor the Christians accept the Truth that is the Holy Qur'an then there's nothing I can do. That is a personal matter between them and God Almighty.

Originally posted by Larry


   As I have said before, Muslims like you use the Bible to "prove" the "truth" of Islam, but whenever you find a "discrepancy" between the Qur'an and the Bible, you simply reject it as "corrupt." Using the "Qur'an" to prove the "truth" of Islam is just like a Jew or Christian using the Old and New Testaments to "prove" that the "Qur'an" is not only a plagiarist of Biblical text, but is a "corrupted" plagiarism of the Bible.
Originally posted by Larry



Actually the Holy Qur'an uses the same stories as in the Bible that are true. You will the stories of Prophets Nuh, Moses, David, Solomon etc (peace be upon them all) because God Almighty is confirming that they are the truth.

Originally posted by Larry


   The "alleged" prophecies concerning Jesus Christ as the Messiah are not only in the Book of Isaiah. Although the prophecies of Isaiah concerning the Messiah were made 700 years before the birth of Jesus Christ. The entire New Testament of Jesus Christ is exactly that, the New "Covenant" between God and His people. And the Bible is explicit in it's writings concerning the crucifixion, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ as the Son of God. Muhammad is NOT mentioned even ONCE in the Old or New Tetaments. The only source for Muhammad being a "prophet" is in the Qur'an, which was supposedly "revealed' to Muhammad himself, so there is no mystery as to why Muhammad is mentioned as a "prophet" in the Qur'an only.


The New Covenant you mention is a Christian concept and it is false.

Originally posted by Larry


   No, you haven't answered why Muhammad is not mentioned in the Bible (except in some secret place that, evidently, only "Muslims" know how to find!


See above.


Originally posted by Larry


   Oh, I see, any reference in the Old Testament to the Messiah (or Masih) is only connected to Jesus Christ by "association?"

   While, supposedly, the "Prophet Muhammad" is mentioned specifically (and not simply by association) in the Old Testament and the New Testament?

   But the "Prophet Muhammad" is NOT mentioned in either the Old or New Testaments. Perhaps you can give me the Biblical citations for where the "Prophet Muhammad" is specifically named in both the Old and New Testaments.


Let's move on Larry you seem to have a fixation with the mentioning of Prophet Muhammed in the Bible.


Originally posted by Larry


   Actually the word "Messiah" is mentioned in Daniel 9:25 and John 1:41.

   So does this mean that Jesus can't be the "Messiah" because the "Messiah" is mentioned only two times? And, by the way, what does "Masih" mean when used in the Qur'an?


LOL Jesus (pbubh ) IS the Messiah because the Holy Qur'an confirms this.

Originally posted by Larry


   I have said MANY times that the name "Allah" is the name of a pre-Islamic idol that was in the Kaaba. The Kaaba, as you know, was the source of funding for Muhammad's tribe, the Quryash.

   "God told Abraham and Ishmael to "build the house" so that "Muslims can "circumnanbulate" it during the Hajj?

   Nowhere in the Bible do Abraham and Ishmael come in to contact with each other after Hagar and Ishmael were driven off by Abraham after the birth of Isaac. And Abraham NEVER went to Southern Arabia to "build the house" or any other "structure." This is simply another case of Muslims trying to connect a Biblical Patriarch, Abraham, with the pre-Islamic pagan shrine, the Kaaba, which was holy for Muhammad's own family and tribe.

   Abrahams's journeys are well documented in the Old Testament.


Your statements are typical of an ignorant Christian who thinks that because the Bible doesn't document Hagar's and Ishmael's plight then anything else is not acceptable. Prophet Ibrahim (pbuh) visited his son Ishmael in Mecca, it was God Almighty who ordered them to build the Ka'baa.

Originally posted by Larry


   And you are wrong concerning your very own "black stone" the former idol in the Kaaba. The story is that the "black" stone originally came down as white, and it was turned black by the sins of mankind. I thought you would have known that.


LOL ok Larry but the black stone is not worshipped by Muslims.

Originally posted by Larry


   No matter "who" kissed the "black stone", it was still a former pagan idol in the Kaaba. And it was purposely built into the corner of the "Holy Kaaba, so giving it "reverential treatment" and status is actually shirk. Or does it mean that something that Muhammad "kissed" takes on such importance that it is built into the "House" of Allah, Himself??


Well if it was sent from heaven then it must be very important. It wasn't an idol that was worshipped, but it was always there. Muslims don't worship the black stone.

Originally posted by Larry


   I find it highly interesting that even with all the historical and religious facts concerning the founding and beliefs contained within Islam, that you cannot directly address even ONE of the points I made. You simply dismiss (a common habit among some Muslims) everything as being only my "opinion." I realize that the statements I made above would be difficult for some Muslims to explain, causing you to make a swift denial of those historical facts and brush them off as "opinion."


What was your points again?

Originally posted by Larry

Do you mean before or after Uthman's "standardization" of the "Holy Qur'an and the destruction by burning of ALL other Qur'anic texts?" For some reason, later Islamic "authorities" thought it was a good idea to destroy the original Qur'an, written within two years of Muhammad's death, what was it they needed to hide? Oh, yeah, I forgot, it had bad "punctuation."
   


You keep talking about 'standardisation' the Holy Qur'an was simply collected together and agreed upon the final outcome.

Originally posted by Larry


"Same answer as above? You said nothing about Ibn Masud's and Ubayy B. Ka'ab's manuscripts of the Qur'an that are not identical to "today's" Qur'an. Masud's "Kufan Codex" still survives because Ibn Masud did not want it destroyed, even if Uthman got him to "agree" to the new "standardized" Qur'an.


Again you talk about 'standardisation.' No such thing.
   

Originally posted by Larry


   No, Abu Loren, Christians do not think that they are an "offshoot" of the "Israelites." The "Israelites" are a people from a specific location who practiced Judaism as their religion. You should learn to know the difference.

   But, Christians and Jews do have much in common because Christianity arose out of Judaism, Jesus Christ Himself was a Jew, as were his family and followers.


You may not think that you are an offshoot of the Israelites but there are many who do.


Larry

   "See" your previous reply? Do you mean the one where yo said that there are foreign words in the Qur'an because the Arabic language did not have a way to express or write words in "pure" Arabic?"


Of course there are foreign words in the Holy Qur'an. As I've stated when there are no words in your own language you use the original 'word'. For example, in English you use the word 'shampoo' which is taken from the Hindi language and it means to massage.

Larry
   It may be "not a big deal" to you, but to someone trying to find answers it is a "big deal" and far from petty.


Larry please. All the answers that you need are in the Holy Qur'an. Go and read my friend.

Larry [/QUOTE]   Am I correct in the above reply concerning the "perfection" of the Qur'an?
[/QUOTE]

Larry the Holy Qur'an is perfection itself because it is from God. Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala challenges you to produce a verse like it.

Larry [/QUOTE]
   Then why did Uthman need to "standardize" the Qur'an because there were different versions being used in various places, such as Ibn Masud's "Kufan Codex." And, if the only differences in the original Qur'an, "Hafsah's Codex," were simply minor points of punctuation and emphasis, was it necessary to destroy this ONE ORIGINAL QUR'AN? There would only be ONE document so the fear that others would have different understandings of the Qur'an by reading this ONE, ORIGINAL QUR'AN, would be groundless.

   Sorry, I just don't buy your "explanations, or lack of them, in this entire conversation. If you want to believe in fairy tales then that is your right, just don't expect others to share your questionable beliefs and explanations, just as you do not accept their beliefs and points.
[/QUOTE]

LOl more 'standardisation'.

Larry [/QUOTE]
   Ah yes, the famous "final version" that was agreed to by "all." My question remains. Why did they need to have a "final" version if the Qur'an was perfect in all ways? The reason was was that there were differing manuscripts, particularly the onesof Ubayy B. Ka'ab and Ibn Masud (Kufan Codex)
[/QUOTE]

I'm now yawning Larry. It took me a long time to write this so don't spoil it with your 'standardisation.']]> Sun, 14 Oct 2012 12:45:39 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=169004#169004 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Assalamu alaika Caringheart.Since... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=169000#169000 Author: Friendship
Subject: 23672
Posted: 14 October 2012 at 10:57am

Assalamu alaika Caringheart.

Since whatever is said about the Qur'an is mocked by some of the members of this forum and regarded as a tale of the ancients, I am forced to remind such skeptics and critics one unique difference between Muhammad and the rest of the Messengers Allah sent to mankind. Muhammad's invitation to his Message began with the command and hence necessity for mankind to acquire knowledge.  Muhammad emphasized this command saying among such emphasis: The one who reflects on a single verse and understand its meaning is superior or better in the Sight of Allah then the one who spends the whole night praying. He saw two groups of people; one praying and the other reflecting on the meaning of the Qur'an. He went and set with those reflecting on the meaning of the Qur'an saying: "It is to these I am sent."
So, let us please respect the need to acquire knowledge. Allah forbids the followers of Muhammad engaging on things they do not know. This is the reason why I respect the Jewish rabbis. They clearly say: I do not know and do not answer questions they are not sure. 

Friendship.


]]> Sun, 14 Oct 2012 10:57:47 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=169000#169000 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Originally posted by Abu Loren Originally... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=168946#168946 Author: Larry
Subject: 23672
Posted: 12 October 2012 at 6:51pm

Originally posted by Abu Loren


Originally posted by Larry

   You are using your Qur'an here as your source. So your statement that the Bible says that all prophets would be direct descendants of Abraham is completely false.


Larry of course I'm using the Holy Qur'an as my source. It is the final revelation from God to mankind and it is unaltered and in it's original form. You must know by now the the Bible is corrupt.

**************************************

   I always get a laugh when a Muslim insists that the Bible is "corrupt," when it suits their purpose and authentic when it agrees with the Qur'an. In the post above by "Friendship" he quotes Matthew 5:18-19, so I suppose this means that at least MATTHEW 5:18-19 IS NOT CORRUPT.

*****************************************
Originally posted by Larry

   And just who is "Abu Hurairah? Again, I see no connection between what the Bible says about Abraham and future prophets. You are confusing the Biblical statements with your own Islamic beliefs and trying to convince others that the Bible says things that it does not.



Larry if you don't know who Abu Hurairah is then you shouldn't be debating in an Islamic forum. What is your purpose in coming here?

****************************************

   Let's see, I looked up "Abu Hurairah" and found this; Sunni Muslims cite Abu Hurairah as one of the most trustworthy narrators of Hadith. Shi'a Muslims reject the authenticity of most of Abu Hurairah's Hadith, considering him an "enemy" of Imam Ali, Imam Hassan and Imam Hussein. I guess who "Abu Hurairah" is depends on which sect of Islam we are talking about.

*****************************************
Originally posted by Larry

"Jew and Jewishness" have been around for over three thousand years, far earlier than Islam or Muhammad even existed. To retroactively call any Biblical personages "Muslims" is simply incorrect. "Muslims" have only existed since the 7th century A.D., after the founding of Islam by Muhammad. Even if they claim that "Islam" preceded Judaism and Christianity. It is simply a claim with no Biblical proofs or support.


Although the word 'Muslim' may be an Arabic term, you can look up the meaning for it in Hebrew or Greek if it makes you happy. Look under 'a person who has submitted his will to God Almighty'.

***********************************

   Sorry, but "Muslim" means nothing in the Greek or Hebrew language. Your statement that "Muslim" means, "a person who has submitted his will to God Almighty." "Muslim" continues to be an Arabic word that is descriptive of a person who follows the religion of Islam and believes the Qur'an is actually divinely created.

**************************************


Originally posted by Larry

   According to the Random House College Dictionary, the word "Jew" means:

   1. "A person whose religion is Judaism. 2. One of a scattered group of people that traces its descent from the Biblical Hebrews or from postexilian adherents of Judaism; Israelite. 3. a subject of the ancient kingdom of Israel."

   So, your statement that the word "Jew" was only used for the "tribe of Judah," is completely untrue, all the tribes of Israel were referred to, and identified themselves as, "Jews."

   And your statement that a "Muslim" is "anyone who has submitted to the Will of God," and that "therefore, all the prophets of God were Muslims," is incorrect. Only the people who have submitted to the Will of God as "Muslims" (which you admit is an Arabic term) are believers in Islam.

   You say that "it doesn't matter when the Arabic term Muslim was first used." Well, the word "Muslim" was only used for the first time in the 7th century A.D. with the establishment of Islam as a new religion. Muslims are mentioned 0 times in the Bible.

   And, dear Abu Loren, the word "Muslim" means: "1. of or pertaining to the religion, law, or civilization of Islam. 2. An adherent of Islam."


Ok Larry so you don't get it, fair enough.
Originally posted by Larry



********************************************

   So I don't get what? Are you referring to the six statements that I made in answer to your previous post above? I think it is YOU who "does not get it," since you have no reply to these six statements.

*******************************************
   If there is any written "work" that has MANY contradictions with the Old and New Testaments, it is the Qur'an. The Bible has been continuously studied and reinterpreted many times as new scholarship and archaeological findings come into being. The "New King James Version" of the Bible that I use differs in language used because the original King James Bible was written in archaic Elizabethan English that is no longer used. Does this mean that they "contradict" each other? There were 66 authors of the Bible and the fact that there are almost no contradictions or major changes between them shows how closely the Old and New Testaments are in form and in message. As I said, the Qur'an has SERIOUS and Manifold contradictions and differences with Biblical scripture, and if any work is deemed "unreliable" it is the Qur'an.


Larry it is the other way around. As the Bible is corrupt through the hands of men and the Holy Qur'an is the Truth from God, the Bible is measured against the Holy Qur'an.
Originally posted by Larry



**************************************

   Oh, I see, the Bible, which includes the Old Testament that was written THOUSANDS OF YEARS BEFORE THE QUR'AN, and the New Testament, that was written HUNDREDS OF YEARS BEFORE THE QUR'AN, is deemed "corrupt" by this very same Qur'an. It amuses me that Islam, which has taken so much of the Old and New Testaments and put their people, patriarchs, stories, etc. into the fabric of the Qur'an, now states that the text of these books has been "corrupted" by the very people who wrote it! There is a "corrupt" text here and it is called the Qjur'an.

*(************************************
Well, I'm glad to hear the truth that "the Holy Qur'an" and the Holy Bible that I have are in no way connected." I have said many times that the Holy Bible has nothing to do with Islam, other than the fact that the Old and New Testaments were incorporated into the Qur'an of the new religion of Islam to give it a sense of credence and continuity with the religions of Judaism and Christianity.

It's true the Bible and the Holy Qur'an are in no way connected. As I keep telling you the Bible is corrupt and the Holy Qur'an is the Truth form God Almighty.
Originally posted by Larry



********************************************

   As you "keep telling me" that the Bible is corrupt and the "Holy Qur'an is the Truth from God Almighty." I suppose if one is a Muslim then they would agree with your statement. Jews and Christians, however, REJECT the Qur'an as a "holy" text and consider it merely a hodge-podge of repetitive old pagan Arabian tales and beliefs, such as the Jinn, and joining them to an imprecise reading and understanding of the Bible, and calling it the "Truth from God Almighty." But you are free to believe whatever you want, that is your right. Just don't expect Jews and Christians to believe it.

******************************************
   The only problem being that the only "prophet" not mentioned in the New Testament or "Injil" is Muhammad. There are no references to him (although Muslims like to claim that the word "paraclete" in Greek actually refers to Muhammad himself, though there is NO Biblical support for that claim), or any other recognition of him as the "final" and "seal of the prophets." But all other prophets are named in the Bible. If anyone has "corrupted" the Old and New Testaments it is Muhammad. And it seems so "convenient" for Muslims to use certain writings in the Old and New Testaments to show that Islam is the "true" religion, while ANY writings in the Bible that CONTRADICT the Qur'an are simply dismissed as "corrupt." I would be interested if a Muslim author could tell us which particular scriptural verses are "corrupt" and which of those that are true.


Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) is mentioned in the Psalms, and you need the original Hebrew script, if you can read Hebrew and it is mentioned in the Injil by Jesus (pbuh) and AHMED will come after him.
Originally posted by Larry



****************************************

   You say, "Prophet Muhammad is mentioned in thje Psalms, and you need the original Hebrew script, if you can read Hebrew and it is mentioned in the Injil by Jesus and AHMED will come after Him."

   Really? Ask ANY Jew who understands Hebrew and try and tell them that their well-loved Psalms contain the ACTUAL NAME OF THE PROPHET MUHAMMAD. Don't be surprised that, after they stop laughing, the speakers of Hebrew will prove that "Prophet Muhammad" is certainly NOT in the Psalms.

   And you say that the "prophet Muhammad" is also "mentioned" in the "Injil" by Jesus and "AHMED" will come after Him." If, as you say, Jesus "mentions" the name of "AHMED" as the person who would "follow" him (600 years later), then why is the name of this "following prophet" not "Muhammad" but as "Ahmed?" Every prophet in the Bible is mentioned by their ACTUAL NAMES, it seems odd that if "Muhammad" was the actual "following prophet" of Jesus, that Jesus would know his ACTUAL NAME, as all other Biblical prophets.

   The truth of the matter is, "Prophet Muhammad," or just simply "Muhammad," is named NOWHERE in the Bible.

****************************************
   Actually the name "Ahmad" is nowhere in either the Old or New Testaments, perhaps you can give me a clue as to where there is a citation of the name "Ahmad" in the Bible? And, it is your statement, confirmed NOWHERE in the Old or New Testaments, that the "Holy Qur'an" is the final Testament (I think it is interesting that many Muslim writers use the term "Testament" when describing the Qur'an. Is this to make the Qur'an appear to be a "legitimate" successor of the Old and New Testaments?)


****************************************

   And, as usual, when asked to simply show me WHERE in the Bible the Prophet Muhammad is mentioned, you simply say that I "wouldn't know where to look as I am "not a scholar." Oh, I see, I need to be a "scholar" to find Muhammad's name in the Bible? If Muhammad's name IS in the Bible you would tell me where, since it is your statement, but since "Prophet Muhammad" is NOT mentioned in the Bible, yiou cannot answer the question. As usual.

****************************************


You wouldn't know where to look Larry as you are not a scholar.
Originally posted by Larry



******************************************

   Read my statement above.

*********************************************
   And you also say that the "only Truth we (Muslims) measure what it (Qur'an) says against the falsehood that is contained in the Bible."

   I always get a laugh at statements like this because Muslims make a practice of "selectively" using the Old and New Testaments to "prove" the authenticity of the Qur'an. Muslims will use any Biblical statement as "proof" of the Qur'an's "holiness" if the statement supports their beliefs contained in the Qur'an. But, whenever a Biblical citation CONTRADICTS what the Qur'an says, that citation is immediately dismissed as "corrupted text."


Larry all we do is quote the Truth from the Holy Qur'an which you guys don't like. We use verses from the Old and New Testament to highlight the discrepancy contained therein.

*****************************************

   Yes, all you do is quote from the "Holy Qur'an" which neither Jews nor Christians accept as coming from God.

And, you "use the verses from the Old and New Testaments to "highlight" the discrepancy contained within."

*********************************************

   As I have said before, Muslims like you use the Bible to "prove" the "truth" of Islam, but whenever you find a "discrepancy" between the Qur'an and the Bible, you simply reject it as "corrupt." Using the "Qur'an" to prove the "truth" of Islam is just like a Jew or Christian using the Old and New Testaments to "prove" that the "Qur'an" is not only a plagiarist of Biblical text, but is a "corrupted" plagiarism of the Bible.

**********************************************

Originally posted by Larry


   The "alleged" prophecies concerning Jesus Christ as the Messiah are not only in the Book of Isaiah. Although the prophecies of Isaiah concerning the Messiah were made 700 years before the birth of Jesus Christ. The entire New Testament of Jesus Christ is exactly that, the New "Covenant" between God and His people. And the Bible is explicit in it's writings concerning the crucifixion, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ as the Son of God. Muhammad is NOT mentioned even ONCE in the Old or New Tetaments. The only source for Muhammad being a "prophet" is in the Qur'an, which was supposedly "revealed' to Muhammad himself, so there is no mystery as to why Muhammad is mentioned as a "prophet" in the Qur'an only.

I've answered this above.
Originally posted by Larry



*****************************************

   No, you haven't answered why Muhammad is not mentioned in the Bible (except in some secret place that, evidently, only "Muslims" know how to find!

**************************************

   Oh, I see, any reference in the Old Testament to the Messiah (or Masih) is only connected to Jesus Christ by "association?"

   While, supposedly, the "Prophet Muhammad" is mentioned specifically (and not simply by association) in the Old Testament and the New Testament?

   But the "Prophet Muhammad" is NOT mentioned in either the Old or New Testaments. Perhaps you can give me the Biblical citations for where the "Prophet Muhammad" is specifically named in both the Old and New Testaments.

Larry the word messiah is only used twice in the Bible. Daniel 9:25 and 9:26.

*******************************************

   Actually the word "Messiah" is mentioned in Daniel 9:25 and John 1:41.

   So does this mean that Jesus can't be the "Messiah" because the "Messiah" is mentioned only two times? And, by the way, what does "Masih" mean when used in the Qur'an?

**************************************************
Originally posted by Larry


   You say that Christianity is a "Judeo-pagan religion mixing with Roman and Greek theology." Is that the same thing in the case of Islam being only a repackaging of Arab paganism of the 7th century A.D.? Both Muhammad's father and uncle had "Allah" (a pagan deity) as part of their names before Muhammad was even born. Also, every ritual connected to the "Hajj" is pagan in origin. The "two seamless white garments," "the running between the two hills," the stoning of the devil," the circumnambulation around the Kaaba a fixed number of times," "praying in the direction of the Kaaba," etc. The famous "Black Stone" was one of the 360 pagan idols in the Kaaba, and the only pagan idol that Muhammad did not destroy. Not only was this idol kept, it was cemented into the corner of the Kaaba itself and is highly venerated by Muslims who attempt to kiss or touch it (with their hands or even with a stick, etc.)


There you go, you've just proved that the Arabs used to call God 'Allah'. How is the Hajj a pagan origin when God told Abraham and Ishmael (peace and blesings of Allah be upon them both) to build the house for mankind so that they can come and circumnambulate the house?With regards to the 'black stone' it is said that it was sent from heaven and originally it was black. The Prophet (pbuh) did not destroy it but kept it and he did not give any reason, mysteriously.<div ="hadith_narrated">It was narrated from Ibn Abbas that the Prophet said:


****************************************

   I have said MANY times that the name "Allah" is the name of a pre-Islamic idol that was in the Kaaba. The Kaaba, as you know, was the source of funding for Muhammad's tribe, the Quryash.

   "God told Abraham and Ishmael to "build the house" so that "Muslims can "circumnanbulate" it during the Hajj?

   Nowhere in the Bible do Abraham and Ishmael come in to contact with each other after Hagar and Ishmael were driven off by Abraham after the birth of Isaac. And Abraham NEVER went to Southern Arabia to "build the house" or any other "structure." This is simply another case of Muslims trying to connect a Biblical Patriarch, Abraham, with the pre-Islamic pagan shrine, the Kaaba, which was holy for Muhammad's own family and tribe.

   Abrahams's journeys are well documented in the Old Testament.

**********************************************

   And you are wrong concerning your very own "black stone" the former idol in the Kaaba. The story is that the "black" stone originally came down as white, and it was turned black by the sins of mankind. I thought you would have known that.

***********************************************

                     
"The Balck Stone is from Paradise." <div ="hadith_narrated">


Ibn 'Umar (Allah be pleased with them) reported that Umar (Allah be pleased with him) kissed the Stone and said:

<div ="text_details">
                      I am kissing you, whereas I know that you are a
stone, but I saw Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) kissing you
(that Is why I kiss you).


*******************************************

   No matter "who" kissed the "black stone", it was still a former pagan idol in the Kaaba. And it was purposely built into the corner of the "Holy Kaaba, so giving it "reverential treatment" and status is actually shirk. Or does it mean that something that Muhammad "kissed" takes on such importance that it is built into the "House" of Allah, Himself??

*****************************************
Originally posted by Larry


   I find it highly interesting that even with all the historical and religious facts concerning the founding and beliefs contained within Islam, that you cannot directly address even ONE of the points I made. You simply dismiss (a common habit among some Muslims) everything as being only my "opinion." I realize that the statements I made above would be difficult for some Muslims to explain, causing you to make a swift denial of those historical facts and brush them off as "opinion."


Larry are you bline? I've been addressing your points, all of them.

************************************************
Originally posted by Larry


   This is somewhat like what happened with the Qur'an when it was "standardized" by Uthman. And any other copy of the Qur'an that differed with Uthman's mushaf such as those of Ibn Masub and Ubay B. Ka'ab), was ordered to be destroyed by burning. Uthman used "Hafsah's Codex" as the model for the Qur'an's standardization and returned the codex to Hafsah afterward, undamaged and intact. It was only later that Islamic "authorities" decided that the original Qur'an, Hafsah's Codex" needed to be destroyed also. Which is strange because Uthman used it to make "four perfect copies" before returning it to Hafsah, as he promised her.


Larry The Holy Qur'an is the only religious book in existence that is not altered after it's revelation. It is complete.

**********************************************

   "So, the "Holy Qur'an" is the only religious book in existence that is not altered aftyer it's revelation. It is complete."

   Do you mean before or after Uthman's "standardization" of the "Holy Qur'an and the destruction by burning of ALL other Qur'anic texts?" For some reason, later Islamic "authorities" thought it was a good idea to destroy the original Qur'an, written within two years of Muhammad's death, what was it they needed to hide? Oh, yeah, I forgot, it had bad "punctuation."

****************************************
Originally posted by Larry


Oh, I see, the Qur'an was meticulously "researched" by people who had memorized the it? Then why does Ibn Masud's and Ubay B. Ka'ab's versions differ from Uthman's mushaf? And the absurd statement that you made that "everything else" other than Uthman's mushaf was destroyed in case there would be "too many copies" and "misunderstandings and additions" like the "Injil," are laughable. You say the "final version" was agreed upon by all the companions of the Prophet." Why would anyone have to "agree" on a final "version" if the Qur'an had been "memorized" perfectly and exactly by many people, as the exact words of Allah to Muhammad?

   And, why the destruction of the very first written Qur'an, Hafsah's Codex" made two years after the death of Muhammad and kept carefully by his own wife? This destruction of the "original" Qur'an was not done during the time of Uthman, but DECADES later by other Muslim "
authorities." Why, what were they hiding? We will NEVER know because all previous Qur'anic materials and sources were destroyed. But the "versions of Ibn Masud (the Kufan Codex) and Ubayy B. Ka'ab still exist. Ibn Masud's does not contain Surahs 1, 113 and 114, while Ubayy B. Ka'ab's contains two additional Surahs not found in the "official" Qur'an.


Same answer as above Larry.

************************************************

   "Same answer as above? You said nothing about Ibn Masud's and Ubayy B. Ka'ab's manuscripts of the Qur'an that are not identical to "today's" Qur'an. Masud's "Kufan Codex" still survives because Ibn Masud did not want it destroyed, even if Uthman got him to "agree" to the new "standardized" Qur'an.

************************************************
Originally posted by Larry


   And, by the way, I have no idea of where you get the idea that Christians try to refer to themselves as "Israelites." The "Children of Israel" were the "Israelites" and even in the Qur'an are directed to settle into their own land that God provided for them.
   But the words "Islam" and "Muslim" are never mentioned even one time in the Old or New Testaments. That is because "Islam" and "Muslims" were named for the first time more than 600 years after the New Testament, in the 7th century A.D. in the Qur'an. Even though Muslims try to pretend that Islam and the Qur'an actually PREDATED both the Old and New Testaments!!! Rather "convenient" for Muslims, don't you think?


*************************************************

No answer?

************************************************

There is another tread about this point. Some Christians believe that they are part of the Israelites.
Originally posted by Larry


   No, Abu Loren, Christians do not think that they are an "offshoot" of the "Israelites." The "Israelites" are a people from a specific location who practiced Judaism as their religion. You should learn to know the difference.

   But, Christians and Jews do have much in common because Christianity arose out of Judaism, Jesus Christ Himself was a Jew, as were his family and followers.


You may not think that you are an offshoot of the Israelites but there are many who do.
Originally posted by Larry


   Also, there is supposedly a Qur'an "on tablets preserved" intact in heaven that is the same as the Qur'an today. The problem is that even when the Qur'an claims to be written in "pure Arabic," there are numerous foreign words in the Qur'an, including Greek, Aramaic, Assyrian, Ethiopic, etc. A coincidence? I don't think so!


See my previous reply.

   "See" your previous reply? Do you mean the one where yo said that there are foreign words in the Qur'an because the Arabic language did not have a way to express or write words in "pure" Arabic?"

*********************************************


Larry
   Oh, I see, Arabic needs to "borrow" words from other languages because these words do not exist in Arabic. The problem with your response is that the "Holy Qur'an" existed from the beginning of the world and as such was written on "tablets" in heaven. I guess the foreign words came in later. But it is not only words but also names. "Haman" is a Babylonian name, not a word. The Qur'an names the person to whom Joseph was sold into slavery as "Aziz," but this name does not even exist at this time. The Bible records his name as Potiphar, a true Egyptian name.

[/QUOTE]This is not a big deal but just getting into the pettiness of this debate.

**********************************************

   It may be "not a big deal" to you, but to someone trying to find answers it is a "big deal" and far from petty.

**********************************************
Larry [/QUOTE]   English derives primarily from Low German, but has many other sources, Latin, Greek, etc. as all modern languages do. But we are not speaking here about "languages" we are speaking of the "holiness" of the Qur'an. Since words are in the Qur'an that didn't even exist when the Qur'an was written "on tablets preserved" in heaven, then how does it later include foreign names and foreign words that did not exist at the time?
[/QUOTE]I see.
Larry [/QUOTE]   Because every Muslim believes that every letter, every word and every mark or punctuation, etc. of the Qur'an is perfect and unchanging, and has ALWAYS been that way.

************************************************

   Am I correct in the above reply concerning the "perfection" of the Qur'an?

************************************************

   Then why did Uthman need to "standardize" the Qur'an because there were different versions being used in various places, such as Ibn Masud's "Kufan Codex." And, if the only differences in the original Qur'an, "Hafsah's Codex," were simply minor points of punctuation and emphasis, was it necessary to destroy this ONE ORIGINAL QUR'AN? There would only be ONE document so the fear that others would have different understandings of the Qur'an by reading this ONE, ORIGINAL QUR'AN, would be groundless.

   Sorry, I just don't buy your "explanations, or lack of them, in this entire conversation. If you want to believe in fairy tales then that is your right, just don't expect others to share your questionable beliefs and explanations, just as you do not accept their beliefs and points.

Larry
    [/QUOTE]Uthman didn't standardise anything. The Holy Qur'an was collected from reliable sources such as the Sahaba and one final version was produced, agreed by all.[/QUOTE]

*******************************************

   Ah yes, the famous "final version" that was agreed to by "all." My question remains. Why did they need to have a "final" version if the Qur'an was perfect in all ways? The reason was was that there were differing manuscripts, particularly the onesof Ubayy B. Ka'ab and Ibn Masud (Kufan Codex)

*************************************************

Larry]]> Fri, 12 Oct 2012 18:51:07 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=168946#168946 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Originally posted by Abu... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=168943#168943 Author: Caringheart
Subject: 23672
Posted: 12 October 2012 at 2:48pm

Originally posted by Abu Loren

Originally posted by Caringheart

Greetings Abu Loren,

I have never seen any demonization of Hagar or Ishmael.  I only see that Hagar was sent away because of conflict between her and Sarah because of Ishmael.  God said that both Isaac and Ishmael would be great in their own rights and showed mercy to Hagar and Ishmael when they were alone in the desert.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I have not failed in my argument that the Bible was edited at the Council of Nicea."
Oh my goodness Abu, how could you make this claim after all the discussions?  The council of Nicea had nothing to do with scripture and only to do with Catholic doctrine... like Hadiths.  Am I mistaken that we have discussed this?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Modern scholars have discovered that in the original Hebrew version of the Psalms ‘Muhammed’ is mentioned. "
I would like to see those sources as I hold the Psalms as the most pure of all scripture.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Well Larry, the Christians seem to think that they are an offshoot of the Israelites.  They seem to think that they have something in common. "
Well Abu, some of them were. Wink  You must remember the first followers of Jesus were Israelites... Jewish... yes, from Judah... from two of the tribes of Israel.  The others who followed Christ were the gentiles... those of other ethnicity... they were still Christians, followers of Jesus, right along with the Jews who chose to follow Jesus, so they do have something in common... Jesus, for those who accepted Him, and all the scriptures that went before Him for those who did not accept Him.  I fail to see the point Mahdi wants to make with this thread.

Salaam,
Caringheart

Oh and as far as my 'smilies'... I have a playful, happy spirit, which I try to share.  I do not harbor animosity towards anyone.

Well the demonisation of Hagar and Ishmael are here right in this forum. Look at the other answers saying that the descendancy of Ismael is not accepted because his mother was a slave woman.
Those are personal perceptions, not dogma, but if they were they'd come directly from the Judeo scriptures which clearly stated that God chose Isaac to be from whom God's people would come... Isaac was the blessed gift Abraham received from God... Ishmael was the child conceived out of disobedience and lack of trust in God.
Unless you were at the Council of Nicea and a participant then you can't comment. I'm quoting scholars who say that the doctrine of Paul was implemented and texts were inserted to support the Trinity and the deity of Jesus (pbuh).
Unless you were at the Council of Nicea and a participant then you can't comment.
I'm quoting the textual records of the council of Nicea... that is if you and I have had this discussion on this forum... it is possible that it never posted on this forum.  I was having a similar conversation on another forum.
If you can read Hebrew then research the Psalms and read it. It's there.
What Hebrew text have you read?  Point me to the source.
Thanks.



Edited by Caringheart - 12 October 2012 at 2:51pm]]> Fri, 12 Oct 2012 14:48:11 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=168943#168943 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Originally posted by FriendshipAssalamu... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=168942#168942 Author: Caringheart
Subject: 23672
Posted: 12 October 2012 at 2:36pm

Originally posted by Friendship

Assalamu alaika Caringheart.

You have not answered my question about your knowledge and understanding of an Islamic state. A patient has to answer the questions of his physician and vice-versa.

Friendship.



Greetings Friendship,

Apologies.  I am not sure if the question confused me, or if it was my lack of knowledge that left me without an answer.  I am still in the process of studying all aspects of Islam.  Smile
]]> Fri, 12 Oct 2012 14:36:56 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=168942#168942 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Originally posted by Caringheart Greetings... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=168935#168935 Author: Abu Loren
Subject: 23672
Posted: 12 October 2012 at 6:27am

Originally posted by Caringheart

Greetings Abu Loren,

I have never seen any demonization of Hagar or Ishmael.  I only see that Hagar was sent away because of conflict between her and Sarah because of Ishmael.  God said that both Isaac and Ishmael would be great in their own rights and showed mercy to Hagar and Ishmael when they were alone in the desert.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"I have not failed in my argument that the Bible was edited at the Council of Nicea."
Oh my goodness Abu, how could you make this claim after all the discussions?  The council of Nicea had nothing to do with scripture and only to do with Catholic doctrine... like Hadiths.  Am I mistaken that we have discussed this?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Modern scholars have discovered that in the original Hebrew version of the Psalms ‘Muhammed’ is mentioned. "
I would like to see those sources as I hold the Psalms as the most pure of all scripture.

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Well Larry, the Christians seem to think that they are an offshoot of the Israelites.  They seem to think that they have something in common. "
Well Abu, some of them were. Wink  You must remember the first followers of Jesus were Israelites... Jewish... yes, from Judah... from two of the tribes of Israel.  The others who followed Christ were the gentiles... those of other ethnicity... they were still Christians, followers of Jesus, right along with the Jews who chose to follow Jesus, so they do have something in common... Jesus, for those who accepted Him, and all the scriptures that went before Him for those who did not accept Him.  I fail to see the point Mahdi wants to make with this thread.

Salaam,
Caringheart

Oh and as far as my 'smilies'... I have a playful, happy spirit, which I try to share.  I do not harbor animosity towards anyone.


Well the demonisation of Hagar and Ishmael are here right in this forum. Look at the other answers saying that the descendancy of Ismael is not accepted because his mother was a slave woman.

Unless you were at the Council of Nicea and a participant then you can't comment. I'm quoting scholars who say that the doctrine of Paul was implemented and texts were inserted to support the Trinity and the deity of Jesus (pbuh).

If you can read Hebrew then research the Psalms and read it. It's there.

We've already explained to you earlier the purpose of this thread go back a dnd read the replies we gave you.
]]> Fri, 12 Oct 2012 06:27:40 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=168935#168935 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Originally posted by LarryYou... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=168933#168933 Author: Abu Loren
Subject: 23672
Posted: 12 October 2012 at 6:18am

Originally posted by Larry


   You are using your Qur'an here as your source. So your statement that the Bible says that all prophets would be direct descendants of Abraham is completely false.


Larry of course I'm using the Holy Qur'an as my source. It is the final revelation from God to mankind and it is unaltered and in it's original form. You must know by now the the Bible is corrupt.

Originally posted by Larry


   And just who is "Abu Hurairah? Again, I see no connection between what the Bible says about Abraham and future prophets. You are confusing the Biblical statements with your own Islamic beliefs and trying to convince others that the Bible says things that it does not.


Larry if you don't know who Abu Hurairah is then you shouldn't be debating in an Islamic forum. What is your purpose in coming here?


Originally posted by Larry

"Jew and Jewishness" have been around for over three thousand years, far earlier than Islam or Muhammad even existed. To retroactively call any Biblical personages "Muslims" is simply incorrect. "Muslims" have only existed since the 7th century A.D., after the founding of Islam by Muhammad. Even if they claim that "Islam" preceded Judaism and Christianity. It is simply a claim with no Biblical proofs or support.


Although the word 'Muslim' may be an Arabic term, you can look up the meaning for it in Hebrew or Greek if it makes you happy. Look under 'a person who has submitted his will to God Almighty'.


Originally posted by Larry


   According to the Random House College Dictionary, the word "Jew" means:

   1. "A person whose religion is Judaism. 2. One of a scattered group of people that traces its descent from the Biblical Hebrews or from postexilian adherents of Judaism; Israelite. 3. a subject of the ancient kingdom of Israel."

   So, your statement that the word "Jew" was only used for the "tribe of Judah," is completely untrue, all the tribes of Israel were referred to, and identified themselves as, "Jews."

   And your statement that a "Muslim" is "anyone who has submitted to the Will of God," and that "therefore, all the prophets of God were Muslims," is incorrect. Only the people who have submitted to the Will of God as "Muslims" (which you admit is an Arabic term) are believers in Islam.

   You say that "it doesn't matter when the Arabic term Muslim was first used." Well, the word "Muslim" was only used for the first time in the 7th century A.D. with the establishment of Islam as a new religion. Muslims are mentioned 0 times in the Bible.

   And, dear Abu Loren, the word "Muslim" means: "1. of or pertaining to the religion, law, or civilization of Islam. 2. An adherent of Islam."


Ok Larry so you don't get it, fair enough.

Originally posted by Larry


   If there is any written "work" that has MANY contradictions with the Old and New Testaments, it is the Qur'an. The Bible has been continuously studied and reinterpreted many times as new scholarship and archaeological findings come into being. The "New King James Version" of the Bible that I use differs in language used because the original King James Bible was written in archaic Elizabethan English that is no longer used. Does this mean that they "contradict" each other? There were 66 authors of the Bible and the fact that there are almost no contradictions or major changes between them shows how closely the Old and New Testaments are in form and in message. As I said, the Qur'an has SERIOUS and Manifold contradictions and differences with Biblical scripture, and if any work is deemed "unreliable" it is the Qur'an.


Larry it is the other way around. As the Bible is corrupt through the hands of men and the Holy Qur'an is the Truth from God, the Bible is measured against the Holy Qur'an.

Originally posted by Larry


   Well, I'm glad to hear the truth that "the Holy Qur'an" and the Holy Bible that I have are in no way connected." I have said many times that the Holy Bible has nothing to do with Islam, other than the fact that the Old and New Testaments were incorporated into the Qur'an of the new religion of Islam to give it a sense of credence and continuity with the religions of Judaism and Christianity.


It's true the Bible and the Holy Qur'an are in no way connected. As I keep telling you the Bible is corrupt and the Holy Qur'an is the Truth form God Almighty.

Originally posted by Larry


   The only problem being that the only "prophet" not mentioned in the New Testament or "Injil" is Muhammad. There are no references to him (although Muslims like to claim that the word "paraclete" in Greek actually refers to Muhammad himself, though there is NO Biblical support for that claim), or any other recognition of him as the "final" and "seal of the prophets." But all other prophets are named in the Bible. If anyone has "corrupted" the Old and New Testaments it is Muhammad. And it seems so "convenient" for Muslims to use certain writings in the Old and New Testaments to show that Islam is the "true" religion, while ANY writings in the Bible that CONTRADICT the Qur'an are simply dismissed as "corrupt." I would be interested if a Muslim author could tell us which particular scriptural verses are "corrupt" and which of those that are true.


Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) is mentioned in the Psalms, and you need the original Hebrew script, if you can read Hebrew and it is mentioned in the Injil by Jesus (pbuh) and AHMED will come after him.

Originally posted by Larry


   Actually the name "Ahmad" is nowhere in either the Old or New Testaments, perhaps you can give me a clue as to where there is a citation of the name "Ahmad" in the Bible? And, it is your statement, confirmed NOWHERE in the Old or New Testaments, that the "Holy Qur'an" is the final Testament (I think it is interesting that many Muslim writers use the term "Testament" when describing the Qur'an. Is this to make the Qur'an appear to be a "legitimate" successor of the Old and New Testaments?)


You wouldn't know where to look Larry as you are not a scholar.

Originally posted by Larry


   And you also say that the "only Truth we (Muslims) measure what it (Qur'an) says against the falsehood that is contained in the Bible."

   I always get a laugh at statements like this because Muslims make a practice of "selectively" using the Old and New Testaments to "prove" the authenticity of the Qur'an. Muslims will use any Biblical statement as "proof" of the Qur'an's "holiness" if the statement supports their beliefs contained in the Qur'an. But, whenever a Biblical citation CONTRADICTS what the Qur'an says, that citation is immediately dismissed as "corrupted text."


Larry all we do is quote the Truth from the Holy Qur'an which you guys don't like. We use verses from the Old and New Testament to highlight the discrepancy contained therein


Originally posted by Larry


   The "alleged" prophecies concerning Jesus Christ as the Messiah are not only in the Book of Isaiah. Although the prophecies of Isaiah concerning the Messiah were made 700 years before the birth of Jesus Christ. The entire New Testament of Jesus Christ is exactly that, the New "Covenant" between God and His people. And the Bible is explicit in it's writings concerning the crucifixion, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ as the Son of God. Muhammad is NOT mentioned even ONCE in the Old or New Tetaments. The only source for Muhammad being a "prophet" is in the Qur'an, which was supposedly "revealed' to Muhammad himself, so there is no mystery as to why Muhammad is mentioned as a "prophet" in the Qur'an only.


I've answered this above.

Originally posted by Larry


   Oh, I see, any reference in the Old Testament to the Messiah (or Masih) is only connected to Jesus Christ by "association?"

   While, supposedly, the "Prophet Muhammad" is mentioned specifically (and not simply by association) in the Old Testament and the New Testament?

   But the "Prophet Muhammad" is NOT mentioned in either the Old or New Testaments. Perhaps you can give me the Biblical citations for where the "Prophet Muhammad" is specifically named in both the Old and New Testaments.


Larry the word messiah is only used twice in the Bible. Daniel 9:25 and 9:26.

Originally posted by Larry


   You say that Christianity is a "Judeo-pagan religion mixing with Roman and Greek theology." Is that the same thing in the case of Islam being only a repackaging of Arab paganism of the 7th century A.D.? Both Muhammad's father and uncle had "Allah" (a pagan deity) as part of their names before Muhammad was even born. Also, every ritual connected to the "Hajj" is pagan in origin. The "two seamless white garments," "the running between the two hills," the stoning of the devil," the circumnambulation around the Kaaba a fixed number of times," "praying in the direction of the Kaaba," etc. The famous "Black Stone" was one of the 360 pagan idols in the Kaaba, and the only pagan idol that Muhammad did not destroy. Not only was this idol kept, it was cemented into the corner of the Kaaba itself and is highly venerated by Muslims who attempt to kiss or touch it (with their hands or even with a stick, etc.)


There you go, you've just proved that the Arabs used to call God 'Allah'. How is the Hajj a pagan origin when God told Abraham and Ishmael (peace and blesings of Allah be upon them both) to build the house for mankind so that they can come and circumnambulate the house?

With regards to the 'black stone' it is said that it was sent from heaven and originally it was black. The Prophet (pbuh) did not destroy it but kept it and he did not give any reason, mysteriously.

It was narrated from Ibn Abbas that the Prophet said:
"The Balck Stone is from Paradise."

Ibn 'Umar (Allah be pleased with them) reported that Umar (Allah be pleased with him) kissed the Stone and said:

I am kissing you, whereas I know that you are a stone, but I saw Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) kissing you (that Is why I kiss you).

Originally posted by Larry


   I find it highly interesting that even with all the historical and religious facts concerning the founding and beliefs contained within Islam, that you cannot directly address even ONE of the points I made. You simply dismiss (a common habit among some Muslims) everything as being only my "opinion." I realize that the statements I made above would be difficult for some Muslims to explain, causing you to make a swift denial of those historical facts and brush them off as "opinion."


Larry are you bline? I've been addressing your points, all of them.

Originally posted by Larry


   This is somewhat like what happened with the Qur'an when it was "standardized" by Uthman. And any other copy of the Qur'an that differed with Uthman's mushaf such as those of Ibn Masub and Ubay B. Ka'ab), was ordered to be destroyed by burning. Uthman used "Hafsah's Codex" as the model for the Qur'an's standardization and returned the codex to Hafsah afterward, undamaged and intact. It was only later that Islamic "authorities" decided that the original Qur'an, Hafsah's Codex" needed to be destroyed also. Which is strange because Uthman used it to make "four perfect copies" before returning it to Hafsah, as he promised her.


Larry The Holy Qur'an is the only religious book in existence that is not altered after it's revelation. It is complete.

Originally posted by Larry


Oh, I see, the Qur'an was meticulously "researched" by people who had memorized the it? Then why does Ibn Masud's and Ubay B. Ka'ab's versions differ from Uthman's mushaf? And the absurd statement that you made that "everything else" other than Uthman's mushaf was destroyed in case there would be "too many copies" and "misunderstandings and additions" like the "Injil," are laughable. You say the "final version" was agreed upon by all the companions of the Prophet." Why would anyone have to "agree" on a final "version" if the Qur'an had been "memorized" perfectly and exactly by many people, as the exact words of Allah to Muhammad?

   And, why the destruction of the very first written Qur'an, Hafsah's Codex" made two years after the death of Muhammad and kept carefully by his own wife? This destruction of the "original" Qur'an was not done during the time of Uthman, but DECADES later by other Muslim "
authorities." Why, what were they hiding? We will NEVER know because all previous Qur'anic materials and sources were destroyed. But the "versions of Ibn Masud (the Kufan Codex) and Ubayy B. Ka'ab still exist. Ibn Masud's does not contain Surahs 1, 113 and 114, while Ubayy B. Ka'ab's contains two additional Surahs not found in the "official" Qur'an.


Same answer as above Larry.

Originally posted by Larry


   And, by the way, I have no idea of where you get the idea that Christians try to refer to themselves as "Israelites." The "Children of Israel" were the "Israelites" and even in the Qur'an are directed to settle into their own land that God provided for them.
   But the words "Islam" and "Muslim" are never mentioned even one time in the Old or New Testaments. That is because "Islam" and "Muslims" were named for the first time more than 600 years after the New Testament, in the 7th century A.D. in the Qur'an. Even though Muslims try to pretend that Islam and the Qur'an actually PREDATED both the Old and New Testaments!!! Rather "convenient" for Muslims, don't you think?


There is another tread about this point. Some Christians believe that they are part of the Israelites.

Originally posted by Larry


   No, Abu Loren, Christians do not think that they are an "offshoot" of the "Israelites." The "Israelites" are a people from a specific location who practiced Judaism as their religion. You should learn to know the difference.

   But, Christians and Jews do have much in common because Christianity arose out of Judaism, Jesus Christ Himself was a Jew, as were his family and followers.


You may not think that you are an offshoot of the Israelites but there are many who do.

Originally posted by Larry


   Also, there is supposedly a Qur'an "on tablets preserved" intact in heaven that is the same as the Qur'an today. The problem is that even when the Qur'an claims to be written in "pure Arabic," there are numerous foreign words in the Qur'an, including Greek, Aramaic, Assyrian, Ethiopic, etc. A coincidence? I don't think so!


See my previous reply.

Larry [/QUOTE]
   Oh, I see, Arabic needs to "borrow" words from other languages because these words do not exist in Arabic. The problem with your response is that the "Holy Qur'an" existed from the beginning of the world and as such was written on "tablets" in heaven. I guess the foreign words came in later. But it is not only words but also names. "Haman" is a Babylonian name, not a word. The Qur'an names the person to whom Joseph was sold into slavery as "Aziz," but this name does not even exist at this time. The Bible records his name as Potiphar, a true Egyptian name.
[/QUOTE]

This is not a big deal but just getting into the pettiness of this debate.

Larry [/QUOTE]
   English derives primarily from Low German, but has many other sources, Latin, Greek, etc. as all modern languages do. But we are not speaking here about "languages" we are speaking of the "holiness" of the Qur'an. Since words are in the Qur'an that didn't even exist when the Qur'an was written "on tablets preserved" in heaven, then how does it later include foreign names and foreign words that did not exist at the time?[/QUOTE]

I see.


Larry [/QUOTE]
   Because every Muslim believes that every letter, every word and every mark or punctuation, etc. of the Qur'an is perfect and unchanging, and has ALWAYS been that way.

   Then why did Uthman need to "standardize" the Qur'an because there were different versions being used in various places, such as Ibn Masud's "Kufan Codex." And, if the only differences in the original Qur'an, "Hafsah's Codex," were simply minor points of punctuation and emphasis, was it necessary to destroy this ONE ORIGINAL QUR'AN? There would only be ONE document so the fear that others would have different understandings of the Qur'an by reading this ONE, ORIGINAL QUR'AN, would be groundless.

   Sorry, I just don't buy your "explanations, or lack of them, in this entire conversation. If you want to believe in fairy tales then that is your right, just don't expect others to share your questionable beliefs and explanations, just as you do not accept their beliefs and points.

Larry
    [/QUOTE]

Uthman didn't standardise anything. The Holy Qur'an was collected from reliable sources such as the Sahaba and one final version was produced, agreed by all.
]]> Fri, 12 Oct 2012 06:18:48 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=168933#168933 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Assalamu alaika Caringheart.You... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=168925#168925 Author: Friendship
Subject: 23672
Posted: 12 October 2012 at 12:44am

Assalamu alaika Caringheart.

You have not answered my question about your knowledge and understanding of an Islamic state. A patient has to answer the questions of his physician and vice-versa.

Friendship.

]]> Fri, 12 Oct 2012 00:44:29 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=168925#168925 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Greetings Abu Loren,Responding... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=168915#168915 Author: Caringheart
Subject: 23672
Posted: 11 October 2012 at 4:12pm

Greetings Abu Loren,

Responding to a few of the things you have said, from my own point of view.
"You, like the writers of the Bible seem to demonise Hagar and Ishmael and as long as this hatred is in you then you will see things darkly."
I have never seen any demonization of Hagar or Ishmael.  I only see that Hagar was sent away because of conflict between her and Sarah because of Ishmael.  God said that both Isaac and Ishmael would be great in their own rights and showed mercy to Hagar and Ishmael when they were alone in the desert.
"I have not failed in my argument that the Bible was edited at the Council of Nicea."
Oh my goodness Abu, how could you make this claim after all the discussions?  The council of Nicea had nothing to do with scripture and only to do with Catholic doctrine... like Hadiths.  Am I mistaken that we have discussed this?
"Modern scholars have discovered that in the original Hebrew version of the Psalms ‘Muhammed’ is mentioned. "
I would like to see those sources as I hold the Psalms as the most pure of all scripture.
"Well Larry, the Christians seem to think that they are an offshoot of the Israelites.  They seem to think that they have something in common. "
Well Abu, some of them were. Wink  You must remember the first followers of Jesus were Israelites... Jewish... yes, from Judah... from two of the tribes of Israel.  The others who followed Christ were the gentiles... those of other ethnicity... they were still Christians, followers of Jesus, right along with the Jews who chose to follow Jesus, so they do have something in common... Jesus, for those who accepted Him, and all the scriptures that went before Him for those who did not accept Him.  I fail to see the point Mahdi wants to make with this thread.

Salaam,
Caringheart

Oh and as far as my 'smilies'... I have a playful, happy spirit, which I try to share.  I do not harbor animosity towards anyone.


Edited by Caringheart - 11 October 2012 at 4:31pm]]> Thu, 11 Oct 2012 16:12:49 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=168915#168915 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Originally posted by FriendshipAssalamu... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=168913#168913 Author: Caringheart
Subject: 23672
Posted: 11 October 2012 at 3:51pm

Originally posted by Friendship

Assalamu alaika Caringheart.

Let me know what you know and understand by an ideal Islamic state please. When did it start in the history of the world? The teaching of Muhammad is governed by conditions in exactly what Jesus son of Maryam said in Matthew 5:18-19, "But I promise you that not even a period or comma will ever disappear from the Law. Everything written in it must happen. If you reject even the least important command in the Law....."
You have to listen and respect the experts in the Sunna of Muhammad. No one is looking for domination. It cannot be in a corporeal matter. The period of indirect rule and colonization should be over by now.

Friendship.  


Greetings Friendship,

I am sorry if someone lied about you.  Disapprove

Regarding;
"The period of indirect rule and colonization should be over by now."
I agree, and I certainly hope you are correct.  The modern, civilized world, has abandoned this way of thinking and operating... no more conquests.  Is there still an ideology left in the world that pursues domination though?
]]> Thu, 11 Oct 2012 15:51:48 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=168913#168913 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Originally posted by Abu Loren Originally... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=168911#168911 Author: Larry
Subject: 23672
Posted: 11 October 2012 at 2:53pm

Originally posted by Abu Loren

Originally posted by Larry


   Really? Could you produce the evidence for your claim that God promised Abraham that all future "prophets" would be DIRECT descendants of Abraham? I would be interested to see your proofs of this "promise" in the cases of prophets such as Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Hosea, Zechariah, Malachi, etc.


Genesis 17:9And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.

**************************************

   The Bible is very clear on what is being said here. God is saying to Abraham that he, and his descendants, shall keep the Covenant between God and the Children of Israel. There is nothing said about all future prophets being in a direct line of physical descendants from Abraham.

**************************************
Sahih International

And We have already sent Noah and Abraham and placed in their descendants prophethood and scripture; and among them is he who is guided, but many of them are defiantly disobedient. 57:26

**********************************

   You are using your Qur'an here as your source. So your statement that the Bible says that all prophets would be direct descendants of Abraham is completely false.

**********************************

Abu Hurairah said :

I heard the Apostle of Allah (May peace be upon him) say : I am the nearest of kin among the people to (Jesus) son of Mary. The Prophet are brothers, sons of one father by co-wives. There is no Prophet between me and him.

*********************************

   And just who is "Abu Hurairah? Again, I see no connection between what the Bible says about Abraham and future prophets. You are confusing the Biblical statements with your own Islamic beliefs and trying to convince others that the Bible says things that it does not.

************************************

Originally posted by Larry

"Jew and Jewishness" have been around for over three thousand years, far earlier than Islam or Muhammad even existed. To retroactively call any Biblical personages "Muslims" is simply incorrect. "Muslims" have only existed since the 7th century A.D., after the founding of Islam by Muhammad. Even if they claim that "Islam" preceded Judaism and Christianity. It is simply a claim with no Biblical proofs or support.


********************************

Yes indeed because they chose to call themselves 'Jews'. By the way, I don't know if you know but this term 'Jew' was only used for the tribe of Judah, the eldest son of Prophet Jacob (pbuh). Then over time all 12 tribes were called 'Jews'. My dear Larry, it seems you are another one who doesn't understand who a Muslim is. A Muslim is anybody who has submitted to the Will of God. Therefore, all the Prophets of God were Muslims. It doesn't matter when the Arabic term Muslim was first used.

***********************************

   According to the Random House College Dictionary, the word "Jew" means:

   1. "A person whose religion is Judaism. 2. One of a scattered group of people that traces its descent from the Biblical Hebrews or from postexilian adherents of Judaism; Israelite. 3. a subject of the ancient kingdom of Israel."

   So, your statement that the word "Jew" was only used for the "tribe of Judah," is completely untrue, all the tribes of Israel were referred to, and identified themselves as, "Jews."

   And your statement that a "Muslim" is "anyone who has submitted to the Will of God," and that "therefore, all the prophets of God were Muslims," is incorrect. Only the people who have submitted to the Will of God as "Muslims" (which you admit is an Arabic term) are believers in Islam.

   You say that "it doesn't matter when the Arabic term Muslim was first used." Well, the word "Muslim" was only used for the first time in the 7th century A.D. with the establishment of Islam as a new religion. Muslims are mentioned 0 times in the Bible.

   And, dear Abu Loren, the word "Muslim" means: "1. of or pertaining to the religion, law, or civilization of Islam. 2. An adherent of Islam."

************************************

Originally posted by Larry


   If there is any written "work" that has MANY contradictions with the Old and New Testaments, it is the Qur'an. The Bible has been continuously studied and reinterpreted many times as new scholarship and archaeological findings come into being. The "New King James Version" of the Bible that I use differs in language used because the original King James Bible was written in archaic Elizabethan English that is no longer used. Does this mean that they "contradict" each other? There were 66 authors of the Bible and the fact that there are almost no contradictions or major changes between them shows how closely the Old and New Testaments are in form and in message. As I said, the Qur'an has SERIOUS and Manifold contradictions and differences with Biblical scripture, and if any work is deemed "unreliable" it is the Qur'an.


I don't know what you mean here, the Holy Qur'an and the Bible that you have are in no way connected. The Holy Qur'an only confirms that the Torah was given to Prophet Musa (pbuh) and the Injil to Prophet Isa (pbuh).

****************************************

   Well, I'm glad to hear the truth that "the Holy Qur'an" and the Holy Bible that I have are in no way connected." I have said many times that the Holy Bible has nothing to do with Islam, other than the fact that the Old and New Testaments were incorporated into the Qur'an of the new religion of Islam to give it a sense of credence and continuity with the religions of Judaism and Christianity.

***********************************

Originally posted by Larry


   The only problem being that the only "prophet" not mentioned in the New Testament or "Injil" is Muhammad. There are no references to him (although Muslims like to claim that the word "paraclete" in Greek actually refers to Muhammad himself, though there is NO Biblical support for that claim), or any other recognition of him as the "final" and "seal of the prophets." But all other prophets are named in the Bible. If anyone has "corrupted" the Old and New Testaments it is Muhammad. And it seems so "convenient" for Muslims to use certain writings in the Old and New Testaments to show that Islam is the "true" religion, while ANY writings in the Bible that CONTRADICT the Qur'an are simply dismissed as "corrupt." I would be interested if a Muslim author could tell us which particular scriptural verses are "corrupt" and which of those that are true.


Wrong Larry. Prophet Isa (pbuh) mentions AHMAD which is Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) in the Injil.
As the Holy Qur'an is the final Testament to mankind and the only Truth we measure what it says against the falsehood that is contained in the Bible.

*************************************

   Actually the name "Ahmad" is nowhere in either the Old or New Testaments, perhaps you can give me a clue as to where there is a citation of the name "Ahmad" in the Bible? And, it is your statement, confirmed NOWHERE in the Old or New Testaments, that the "Holy Qur'an" is the final Testament (I think it is interesting that many Muslim writers use the term "Testament" when describing the Qur'an. Is this to make the Qur'an appear to be a "legitimate" successor of the Old and New Testaments?)

   And you also say that the "only Truth we (Muslims) measure what it (Qur'an) says against the falsehood that is contained in the Bible."

   I always get a laugh at statements like this because Muslims make a practice of "selectively" using the Old and New Testaments to "prove" the authenticity of the Qur'an. Muslims will use any Biblical statement as "proof" of the Qur'an's "holiness" if the statement supports their beliefs contained in the Qur'an. But, whenever a Biblical citation CONTRADICTS what the Qur'an says, that citation is immediately dismissed as "corrupted text."

**********************************


Originally posted by Larry


   The "alleged" prophecies concerning Jesus Christ as the Messiah are not only in the Book of Isaiah. Although the prophecies of Isaiah concerning the Messiah were made 700 years before the birth of Jesus Christ. The entire New Testament of Jesus Christ is exactly that, the New "Covenant" between God and His people. And the Bible is explicit in it's writings concerning the crucifixion, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ as the Son of God. Muhammad is NOT mentioned even ONCE in the Old or New Tetaments. The only source for Muhammad being a "prophet" is in the Qur'an, which was supposedly "revealed' to Muhammad himself, so there is no mystery as to why Muhammad is mentioned as a "prophet" in the Qur'an only.

***************************************

Wrong again Larry. It is only by association that what has been mentioned in the OT you attribute to Jesus (pbuh). Like I mentioned above, Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) is mentioned in both the OT and the NT.

******************************************

   Oh, I see, any reference in the Old Testament to the Messiah (or Masih) is only connected to Jesus Christ by "association?"

   While, supposedly, the "Prophet Muhammad" is mentioned specifically (and not simply by association) in the Old Testament and the New Testament?

   But the "Prophet Muhammad" is NOT mentioned in either the Old or New Testaments. Perhaps you can give me the Biblical citations for where the "Prophet Muhammad" is specifically named in both the Old and New Testaments.

**********************************

Originally posted by Larry


   You say that Christianity is a "Judeo-pagan religion mixing with Roman and Greek theology." Is that the same thing in the case of Islam being only a repackaging of Arab paganism of the 7th century A.D.? Both Muhammad's father and uncle had "Allah" (a pagan deity) as part of their names before Muhammad was even born. Also, every ritual connected to the "Hajj" is pagan in origin. The "two seamless white garments," "the running between the two hills," the stoning of the devil," the circumnambulation around the Kaaba a fixed number of times," "praying in the direction of the Kaaba," etc. The famous "Black Stone" was one of the 360 pagan idols in the Kaaba, and the only pagan idol that Muhammad did not destroy. Not only was this idol kept, it was cemented into the corner of the Kaaba itself and is highly venerated by Muslims who attempt to kiss or touch it (with their hands or even with a stick, etc.)


Wrong once more Larry. You've got your facts wrong. These are only your opinions and you are welcome to them.
This is your opinion and you are welcome to it.

********************************

   I find it highly interesting that even with all the historical and religious facts concerning the founding and beliefs contained within Islam, that you cannot directly address even ONE of the points I made. You simply dismiss (a common habit among some Muslims) everything as being only my "opinion." I realize that the statements I made above would be difficult for some Muslims to explain, causing you to make a swift denial of those historical facts and brush them off as "opinion."

************************************

Originally posted by Larry


   This is somewhat like what happened with the Qur'an when it was "standardized" by Uthman. And any other copy of the Qur'an that differed with Uthman's mushaf such as those of Ibn Masub and Ubay B. Ka'ab), was ordered to be destroyed by burning. Uthman used "Hafsah's Codex" as the model for the Qur'an's standardization and returned the codex to Hafsah afterward, undamaged and intact. It was only later that Islamic "authorities" decided that the original Qur'an, Hafsah's Codex" needed to be destroyed also. Which is strange because Uthman used it to make "four perfect copies" before returning it to Hafsah, as he promised her.


The Qur'an was not standardised but meticulously researched with people who has momorised the whole Qur'an. Everything else was destroyed in case there would be too many copies and misunderstandings and additions like the Injil. The fianl version was agreed upon by all of the companions of the Prophet (pbuh).

************************************

Oh, I see, the Qur'an was meticulously "researched" by people who had memorized the it? Then why does Ibn Masud's and Ubay B. Ka'ab's versions differ from Uthman's mushaf? And the absurd statement that you made that "everything else" other than Uthman's mushaf was destroyed in case there would be "too many copies" and "misunderstandings and additions" like the "Injil," are laughable. You say the "final version" was agreed upon by all the companions of the Prophet." Why would anyone have to "agree" on a final "version" if the Qur'an had been "memorized" perfectly and exactly by many people, as the exact words of Allah to Muhammad?

   And, why the destruction of the very first written Qur'an, Hafsah's Codex" made two years after the death of Muhammad and kept carefully by his own wife? This destruction of the "original" Qur'an was not done during the time of Uthman, but DECADES later by other Muslim "
authorities." Why, what were they hiding? We will NEVER know because all previous Qur'anic materials and sources were destroyed. But the "versions of Ibn Masud (the Kufan Codex) and Ubayy B. Ka'ab still exist. Ibn Masud's does not contain Surahs 1, 113 and 114, while Ubayy B. Ka'ab's contains two additional Surahs not found in the "official" Qur'an.

********************************

Originally posted by Larry


   And, by the way, I have no idea of where you get the idea that Christians try to refer to themselves as "Israelites." The "Children of Israel" were the "Israelites" and even in the Qur'an are directed to settle into their own land that God provided for them.
   But the words "Islam" and "Muslim" are never mentioned even one time in the Old or New Testaments. That is because "Islam" and "Muslims" were named for the first time more than 600 years after the New Testament, in the 7th century A.D. in the Qur'an. Even though Muslims try to pretend that Islam and the Qur'an actually PREDATED both the Old and New Testaments!!! Rather "convenient" for Muslims, don't you think?


***************************************

I understand your decision not to reply to the above points.

***************************************

Well Larry, the Christians seem to think that they are an offshoot of the Israelites. They seem to think that they have something in common.

****************************************

   No, Abu Loren, Christians do not think that they are an "offshoot" of the "Israelites." The "Israelites" are a people from a specific location who practiced Judaism as their religion. You should learn to know the difference.

   But, Christians and Jews do have much in common because Christianity arose out of Judaism, Jesus Christ Himself was a Jew, as were his family and followers.

*************************************

Originally posted by Larry


   Also, there is supposedly a Qur'an "on tablets preserved" intact in heaven that is the same as the Qur'an today. The problem is that even when the Qur'an claims to be written in "pure Arabic," there are numerous foreign words in the Qur'an, including Greek, Aramaic, Assyrian, Ethiopic, etc. A coincidence? I don't think so!

Larry
I don't know if you are aware but Arabic needs to 'borrow' words from other languages because those words do not exist in Arabic. So the words you have mentioned has to be used so the Arabs can understand what is being revealed to them. Just tell me from how many languages does the English language 'borrow' from? You'd be amazed.


***************************************

   Oh, I see, Arabic needs to "borrow" words from other languages because these words do not exist in Arabic. The problem with your response is that the "Holy Qur'an" existed from the beginning of the world and as such was written on "tablets" in heaven. I guess the foreign words came in later. But it is not only words but also names. "Haman" is a Babylonian name, not a word. The Qur'an names the person to whom Joseph was sold into slavery as "Aziz," but this name does not even exist at this time. The Bible records his name as Potiphar, a true Egyptian name.

*********************************************

   "How many languages does the English language "borrow" from?"

*********************************************

   English derives primarily from Low German, but has many other sources, Latin, Greek, etc. as all modern languages do. But we are not speaking here about "languages" we are speaking of the "holiness" of the Qur'an. Since words are in the Qur'an that didn't even exist when the Qur'an was written "on tablets preserved" in heaven, then how does it later include foreign names and foreign words that did not exist at the time?

   Because every Muslim believes that every letter, every word and every mark or punctuation, etc. of the Qur'an is perfect and unchanging, and has ALWAYS been that way.

   Then why did Uthman need to "standardize" the Qur'an because there were different versions being used in various places, such as Ibn Masud's "Kufan Codex." And, if the only differences in the original Qur'an, "Hafsah's Codex," were simply minor points of punctuation and emphasis, was it necessary to destroy this ONE ORIGINAL QUR'AN? There would only be ONE document so the fear that others would have different understandings of the Qur'an by reading this ONE, ORIGINAL QUR'AN, would be groundless.

   Sorry, I just don't buy your "explanations, or lack of them, in this entire conversation. If you want to believe in fairy tales then that is your right, just don't expect others to share your questionable beliefs and explanations, just as you do not accept their beliefs and points.

Larry

    

Edited by Larry - 11 October 2012 at 3:05pm]]> Thu, 11 Oct 2012 14:53:55 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=168911#168911 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Originally posted by Experiential Originally... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=168898#168898 Author: Mahdi The Seeke
Subject: 23672
Posted: 11 October 2012 at 11:05am

Originally posted by Experiential

Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

Mahdi Said Let us look at some more information. Matthew 10:23 When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next, for truly, I say to you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes. Maybe all nations = Israel My Reply Mahdi. Its true - they actually did not go through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man came, because the Son of Man did come - after his resurrection. Very good answer Experiential. Matthew 10 New International Version (NIV) Jesus Sends Out the Twelve Jesus called his twelve disciples to him and gave them authority to drive out impure spirits and to heal every disease and sickness. 2 These are the names of the twelve apostles: first, Simon (who is called Peter) and his brother Andrew; James son of Zebedee, and his brother John; 3 Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus; 4 Simon the Zealot and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him. 5 These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: “Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. 6 Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel. 7 As you go, proclaim this message: ‘The kingdom of heaven has come near.’ 8 Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy,[a] drive out demons. Freely you have received; freely give. 9 “Do not get any gold or silver or copper to take with you in your belts— 10 no bag for the journey or extra shirt or sandals or a staff, for the worker is worth his keep. 11 Whatever town or village you enter, search there for some worthy person and stay at their house until you leave. 12 As you enter the home, give it your greeting. 13 If the home is deserving, let your peace rest on it; if it is not, let your peace return to you. 14 If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, leave that home or town and shake the dust off your feet. 15 Truly I tell you, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town. 16 “I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves. 17 Be on your guard; you will be handed over to the local councils and be flogged in the synagogues. 18 On my account you will be brought before governors and kings as witnesses to them and to the Gentiles. 19 But when they arrest you, do not worry about what to say or how to say it. At that time you will be given what to say, 20 for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you. 21 “Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. 22 You will be hated by everyone because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 23 When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. Truly I tell you, you will not finish going through the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes. By claiming the last statement of the scripture is talking about Jesus ressurection, you are making him a liar and false prophet. Unless you can prove all the things he predicted in the quoted scripture happened before his ressurection. Who is taking verses out of context now?

<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">No it is after his resurrection. The reason for this is <?:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><ST1:CITY w:st="on">Jerusalem</ST1:CITY> and <ST1:COUNTRY-REGIoN w:st="on"><ST1:PLACE w:st="on">Israel</ST1:PLACE></ST1:COUNTRY-REGIoN> had judgment brought upon it in AD 70.


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><FONT face="Times New Roman"><SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>The term Son of Man is often used in the context of judgment. The judgment of the Son of Man fell upon <ST1:COUNTRY-REGIoN w:st="on"><ST1:PLACE w:st="on">Israel</ST1:PLACE></ST1:COUNTRY-REGIoN> in AD 70.


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">The disciples had not finished going through the towns of <ST1:COUNTRY-REGIoN w:st="on">Israel</ST1:COUNTRY-REGIoN> before the Son of Man came in judgment on <ST1:CITY w:st="on">Jerusalem</ST1:CITY> and <ST1:PLACE w:st="on"><ST1:COUNTRY-REGIoN w:st="on">Israel</ST1:COUNTRY-REGIoN></ST1:PLACE> in AD 70 after the resurrection of Jesus.


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">This is also the fulfillment of Matthew 10:15 the Day of Judgment.


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><O:P><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </O:P>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><FONT face="Times New Roman">In regards to the gentile / Jew question in Mathew 10.18 you see a hint that the message of the disciples would not long be confined to the lost sheep of the house of <ST1:COUNTRY-REGIoN w:st="on"><ST1:PLACE w:st="on">Israel</ST1:PLACE></ST1:COUNTRY-REGIoN> but would also move to the Gentiles. Judgment first to the Jews and then to the whole world.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><O:P><SPAN style="TEXT-DECORATION: none"><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </SPAN></O:P>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><FONT face="Times New Roman">Mathew 10.18. “<I style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal">And you shall be brought before governors (Gentiles) provincial rulers (Gentil<O:P></O:P>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><I style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal"><FONT face="Times New Roman">es) and kings (Gentiles) the highest tribunals (Gentiles) for my sake, for a testimony against them rather, "to them," in order to bear testimony to the truth and its glorious effects.” <O:P></O:P>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><O:P><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </O:P>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">Later in Mathew 15. 22 Jesus was to heal the daughter of the Syrophoenician woman (Gentile).


Experiential, i am speechless.]]> Thu, 11 Oct 2012 11:05:54 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=168898#168898 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Originally posted by Larry Really?... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=168889#168889 Author: Abu Loren
Subject: 23672
Posted: 11 October 2012 at 4:30am

Originally posted by Larry


   Really? Could you produce the evidence for your claim that God promised Abraham that all future "prophets" would be DIRECT descendants of Abraham? I would be interested to see your proofs of this "promise" in the cases of prophets such as Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Hosea, Zechariah, Malachi, etc.


Genesis 17:9And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations.

Sahih International

And We have already sent Noah and Abraham and placed in their descendants prophethood and scripture; and among them is he who is guided, but many of them are defiantly disobedient. 57:26

Abu Hurairah said :

I heard the Apostle of Allah (May peace be upon him) say : I am the nearest of kin among the people to (Jesus) son of Mary. The Prophet are brothers, sons of one father by co-wives. There is no Prophet between me and him.

Originally posted by Larry

"Jew and Jewishness" have been around for over three thousand years, far earlier than Islam or Muhammad even existed. To retroactively call any Biblical personages "Muslims" is simply incorrect. "Muslims" have only existed since the 7th century A.D., after the founding of Islam by Muhammad. Even if they claim that "Islam" preceded Judaism and Christianity. It is simply a claim with no Biblical proofs or support.


Yes indeed because they chose to call themselves 'Jews'. By the way, I don't know if you know but this term 'Jew' was only used for the tribe of Judah, the eldest son of Prophet Jacob (pbuh). Then over time all 12 tribes were called 'Jews'. My dear Larry, it seems you are another one who doesn't understand who a Muslim is. A Muslim is anybody who has submitted to the Will of God. Therefore, all the Prophets of God were Muslims. It doesn't matter when the Arabic term Muslim was first used.

Originally posted by Larry


   If there is any written "work" that has MANY contradictions with the Old and New Testaments, it is the Qur'an. The Bible has been continuously studied and reinterpreted many times as new scholarship and archaeological findings come into being. The "New King James Version" of the Bible that I use differs in language used because the original King James Bible was written in archaic Elizabethan English that is no longer used. Does this mean that they "contradict" each other? There were 66 authors of the Bible and the fact that there are almost no contradictions or major changes between them shows how closely the Old and New Testaments are in form and in message. As I said, the Qur'an has SERIOUS and Manifold contradictions and differences with Biblical scripture, and if any work is deemed "unreliable" it is the Qur'an.


I don't know what you mean here, the Holy Qur'an and the Bible that you have are in no way connected. The Holy Qur'an only confirms that the Torah was given to Prophet Musa (pbuh) and the Injil to Prophet Isa (pbuh).

Originally posted by Larry


   The only problem being that the only "prophet" not mentioned in the New Testament or "Injil" is Muhammad. There are no references to him (although Muslims like to claim that the word "paraclete" in Greek actually refers to Muhammad himself, though there is NO Biblical support for that claim), or any other recognition of him as the "final" and "seal of the prophets." But all other prophets are named in the Bible. If anyone has "corrupted" the Old and New Testaments it is Muhammad. And it seems so "convenient" for Muslims to use certain writings in the Old and New Testaments to show that Islam is the "true" religion, while ANY writings in the Bible that CONTRADICT the Qur'an are simply dismissed as "corrupt." I would be interested if a Muslim author could tell us which particular scriptural verses are "corrupt" and which of those that are true.


Wrong Larry. Prophet Isa (pbuh) mentions AHMAD which is Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) in the Injil.
As the Holy Qur'an is the final Testament to mankind and the only Truth we measure what it says against the falsehood that is contained in the Bible.

Originally posted by Larry


   The "alleged" prophecies concerning Jesus Christ as the Messiah are not only in the Book of Isaiah. Although the prophecies of Isaiah concerning the Messiah were made 700 years before the birth of Jesus Christ. The entire New Testament of Jesus Christ is exactly that, the New "Covenant" between God and His people. And the Bible is explicit in it's writings concerning the crucifixion, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ as the Son of God. Muhammad is NOT mentioned even ONCE in the Old or New Tetaments. The only source for Muhammad being a "prophet" is in the Qur'an, which was supposedly "revealed' to Muhammad himself, so there is no mystery as to why Muhammad is mentioned as a "prophet" in the Qur'an only.


Wrong again Larry. It is only by association that what has been mentioned in the OT you attribute to Jesus (pbuh). Like I mentioned above, Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) is mentioned in both the OT and the NT.

Originally posted by Larry


   You say that Christianity is a "Judeo-pagan religion mixing with Roman and Greek theology." Is that the same thing in the case of Islam being only a repackaging of Arab paganism of the 7th century A.D.? Both Muhammad's father and uncle had "Allah" (a pagan deity) as part of their names before Muhammad was even born. Also, every ritual connected to the "Hajj" is pagan in origin. The "two seamless white garments," "the running between the two hills," the stoning of the devil," the circumnambulation around the Kaaba a fixed number of times," "praying in the direction of the Kaaba," etc. The famous "Black Stone" was one of the 360 pagan idols in the Kaaba, and the only pagan idol that Muhammad did not destroy. Not only was this idol kept, it was cemented into the corner of the Kaaba itself and is highly venerated by Muslims who attempt to kiss or touch it (with their hands or even with a stick, etc.)


Wrong once more Larry. You've got your facts wrong. These are only your opinions and you are welcome to them.
This is your opinion and you are welcome to it.

Originally posted by Larry


   This is somewhat like what happened with the Qur'an when it was "standardized" by Uthman. And any other copy of the Qur'an that differed with Uthman's mushaf such as those of Ibn Masub and Ubay B. Ka'ab), was ordered to be destroyed by burning. Uthman used "Hafsah's Codex" as the model for the Qur'an's standardization and returned the codex to Hafsah afterward, undamaged and intact. It was only later that Islamic "authorities" decided that the original Qur'an, Hafsah's Codex" needed to be destroyed also. Which is strange because Uthman used it to make "four perfect copies" before returning it to Hafsah, as he promised her.


The Qur'an was not standardised but meticulously researched with people who has momorised the whole Qur'an. Everything else was destroyed in case there would be too many copies and misunderstandings and additions like the Injil. The fianl version was agreed upon by all of the companions of the Prophet (pbuh).

Originally posted by Larry


   And, by the way, I have no idea of where you get the idea that Christians try to refer to themselves as "Israelites." The "Children of Israel" were the "Israelites" and even in the Qur'an are directed to settle into their own land that God provided for them.
   But the words "Islam" and "Muslim" are necver mentioned even one time in the Old or New Testaments. That is because "Islam" and "Muslims" were named for the first time more than 600 years after the New Testament, in the 7th century A.D. in the Qur'an. Even though Muslims try to pretend that Islam and the Qur'an actually PREDATED both the Old and New Testaments!!! Rather "convenient" for Muslims, don't you think?


Well Larry, the Christians seem to think that they are an offshoot of the Israelites. They seem to think that they have something in common.

Originally posted by Larry


   Also, there is supposedly a Qur'an "on tablets preserved" intact in heaven that is the same as the Qur'an today. The problem is that even when the Qur'an claims to be written in "pure Arabic," there are numerous foreign words in the Qur'an, including Greek, Aramaic, Assyrian, Ethiopic, etc. A coincidence? I don't think so!

Larry
I don't know if you are aware but Arabic needs to 'borrow' words from other languages because those words do not exist in Arabic. So the words you have mentioned has to be used so the Arabs can understand what is being revealed to them. Just tell me from how many languages does the English language 'borrow' from? You'd be amazed.

Edited by Abu Loren - 11 October 2012 at 11:44am]]> Thu, 11 Oct 2012 04:30:41 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=168889#168889 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Originally posted by ExperientialMy... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=168888#168888 Author: Abu Loren
Subject: 23672
Posted: 11 October 2012 at 3:17am

Originally posted by Experiential

My Reply
In regards to the Old Covenant (Mosaic law) and the New Covenant the prophet Jeremiah talks about the New Covenant –

“But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. “Jeremiah 31:33


To say Jesus was a Muslim is ridiculous. How could he be a Muslim when he was born 600 years before the new religion of Mohammad. And don’t try playing with word meanings that it was because he was “submitted” to God. That’s just word games and twisting meaning.
Beside the Quran contradicts itself as to who was the first Muslim. Was it Moses? Was it other believers at the time of Moses? Was it pharaohs magicians? was it Mohammad? Was it Noah ? or was it Adam ?


Regarding Jeremiah 31:33 it does not say when the new Covenant will be established, it is not specific. Whatever the Covenant the Children of Israel established with God is now null and void because the Children of Israel broke that Covenant. For a covenant to be binding one or both of the parties must adhere to the Covenant and not break it.
With regard to your quotes from the New Testament they cannot be accepted because we don’t really know what is real and what is added.
You STILL do not know the meaning of the word MUSLIM. Let me explain it to you once more, a Muslim is a person who has submitted his being to the One True God Allah Subhana Wa Ta’ala. Therefore, from Adam (pbuh) to Jesus (pbuh) to Muhammed (pbuh) were all Muslims. Also include Abraham, Moses and all the prophets of God.

Originally posted by Experiential

My Reply
Mohammad did not understand the Jewish foundation that Christianity is based on. How could Ishmael be a Muslim before the new religion of Mohammad. And Ishmael was of the line of Hagar, the slave woman, not of the free woman Sarah and Gods blessing and promise to Isaac. As a result he brings a slave religion and not the heritage to ever lasting life.


Mohammed did not need to understand anything but was revealed to him by God Almighty. You keep thinking wrongly that Muslims just came on the scene when Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) was given prophethood. Keep thinking like that and you will never understand anything. It’s true that Hagar was a slave woman but she was beloved of Prophet Ibrahim (pbuh) and she gave him his first born son Prophet Ishmael (pbuh). You, like the writers of the Bible seem to demonise Hagar and Ishmael and as long as this hatred is in you then you will see things darkly.

Originally posted by Experiential


My Reply
They (Peter, James, Judas etc) were not Muslims. To say they were Muslims is ridiculous. How could they be Muslims when they was born 600 years before the new religion of Mohammad. And don’t try playing with word meanings that it was because he was “submitted” to God. That’s just word play.
Beside your Quran contradicts itself as to who was the first Muslim. Was it Moses? Was it other believers at time of Moses? Was it pharaohs magicians? Was it Mohammad? Was it Noah ? or was it Adam ?
If you want evidence they supported Paul read The Book of Acts 15.22 and 2 Peter 3.15.


You are just repeating the same old prejudice.

Sahih International

Or were you witnesses when death approached Jacob, when he said to his sons, "What will you worship after me?" They said, "We will worship your God and the God of your fathers, Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac - one God. And we are Muslims [in submission] to Him." 2:133

Originally posted by Experiential


My Reply
Ultimately it goes back to the descendents of Abraham. The Jews go back to the free woman Sarah and Gods blessing and promise to Isaac, not the line of Hagar the slave woman and her son Ishmael. As a result Jews and Christians are not of Hagars slave religion.


LOL same old rubbish. God tells us in the Holy Qur’an that both Ismael and Isaac both beloved to Prophet Ibrahim (pbuh) were blessed. Also Prophet Ibrahim (pbuh) loved both his sons equally.

Originally posted by Experiential

My Reply
In regards to Jesus as the “Lamb of God” there are prophesies and verses in the Torah and Injil that refer to The Messiah being offered as a “sacrificial lamb

Also in the Torah prophesies point to The Messiah dying–
Piercing His hands and feet (Psalm 22:16; Matthew 27:31)
Being crucified with thieves (Isaiah 53:12; Matthew 27:38)
Praying for His persecutors (Isaiah 53:12; Luke 23:34)
Piercing His side (Zechariah 12:10; John 19:34)


Rubbish. All were associations. All of the above is only true if you associate Jesus (pbuh) having gone through with the above. They’ve conveniently taken the above verses from the OT and associated it with Jesus (pbuh).

Originally posted by Experiential


My Reply
Prove it was corrupted. You cant. Your attempt at the Council of Nicea argument has already failed. And besides why believe something written 600 years after the fact.


The proof that the OT & NT are corrupted are in the inconsistencies and contradictions. It’s as plain as day is from night. I have not failed in my argument that the Bible was edited at the Council of Nicea. It’s just that you can’t see it because you have got blinkers on.

Originally posted by Experiential

My Reply
A few verses from Isaiah only! Really? I don’t think so! Here they are –


Again all of the examples you give are only true by association.

Originally posted by Experiential

Prove to me that Mohammad was prophesied in the Torah.


The proof has been suppressed in the Bible. Modern scholars have discovered that in the original Hebrew version of the Psalms ‘Muhammed’ is mentioned.

You need to open your eyes and open your heart and have an open mind. You have been spewing out what you have been taught by your fathers and you want keep the status quo.
You need to be like Prophet Ibrahim (pbuh) and Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) whose fathers were idol worshippers and they broke their stranglehold on idol worship and they were given wisdom and knowledge.

Sahih International

And when it is said to them, "Follow what Allah has revealed," they say, "Rather, we will follow that which we found our fathers doing." Even though their fathers understood nothing, nor were they guided? 2:170]]> Thu, 11 Oct 2012 03:17:53 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=168888#168888 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Assalamu alaika Experiential.You... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=168884#168884 Author: Friendship
Subject: 23672
Posted: 11 October 2012 at 1:24am

Assalamu alaika Experiential.

You said: Why should I believe Mohamads version that came 6oo years after the eye witness New testament accounts?
Response. Let us not be impartial. Probably you do not believe in the Torah. Otherwise what is the period between Adam to Noah, Noah to Abraham, Abraham to Moses, Moses to Jesus etc. Understand that you do not believe in the Qur'an implying that you do not believe in anything Allah revealed to mankind. You do not believe that you are created from a male and female. This is our standard of belief.
What is the total number of those who believed in Jesus son of Maryam in his first, second and third year of preaching?
Let me take you back to your previous assertion that the red letter pronouncing text of the bible is gimmick. Then which is that part of the bible that is not gimmick?
You said: Yeah sure. And I know the Quran better than your Ayatollah !
Response:  I am responsible to myself and not any teacher in the Hereafter. There is no such terminology or phrase in the teaching of Allah. Ayatollah means the sign of Allah. If you know the Qur'an let me have a list of your books explaining the meaning of the Qur'an in sequence of production please. Start from the baseline.
You said: Friendship. What qualifies you to know what should be in the New testament? The New Testament we currently have is the same Injil Mohamed had?

Anyway if you believe that The New Testament should only consist of only what was revealed to Jesus son of Maryam conforming to what was revealed to Moses and what was allowed in his time as an extension of the oral law, then you will see that Jesus was the Messiah that gave his life for the salvation of humanity.

Response: Commonsense rejects your claim. In the first instance there is no clear certified record of the numbers of years Jesus son of Maryam spent preaching. His experience is just limited. Secondly he was confined to a few kilometers of tribal and regional influence. His power of convincing is no longer an absolute entity - the miracles of healing i.e medical practice. This is unlike the Majestic Qur'an with an open challenge to mankind to produce its like and its meaning will never be encircled by human beings. The more you read the more you understand and it is never boring. I do not like to go into details but the story of Abraham in the Torah and its explanation by the rabbis never proved that Jesus was the messiah. It points plainly to the progeny of Ishmael.

How can something be lasting that is limited in its application? Do you know that Muhammad said: You should switch off you lighting points when you are going to sleep?  What is wrong in Muhammad disapproving the manufacture of arms?  What is wrong in Muhammad giving stipends to those in need?

Take my advice please- stop reading the whole of the Qur'an for it will mislead you. Read only a portion to convince you of the existence of only one G-d
and then switch to reading the life of Muhammad and his immediate Sahabas.
 
Friendship.




Edited by Friendship - 11 October 2012 at 1:50am]]> Thu, 11 Oct 2012 01:24:20 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=168884#168884 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Originally posted by Experiential Originally... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=168883#168883 Author: Mahdi The Seeke
Subject: 23672
Posted: 11 October 2012 at 12:01am

Originally posted by Experiential

Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

Mahdi Said Let us look at some more information. Matthew 10:23 When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next, for truly, I say to you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes. Maybe all nations = Israel My Reply Mahdi. Its true - they actually did not go through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man came, because the Son of Man did come - after his resurrection. Very good answer Experiential. Matthew 10 New International Version (NIV) Jesus Sends Out the Twelve Jesus called his twelve disciples to him and gave them authority to drive out impure spirits and to heal every disease and sickness. 2 These are the names of the twelve apostles: first, Simon (who is called Peter) and his brother Andrew; James son of Zebedee, and his brother John; 3 Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus; 4 Simon the Zealot and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him. 5 These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: “Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. 6 Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel. 7 As you go, proclaim this message: ‘The kingdom of heaven has come near.’ 8 Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those who have leprosy,[a] drive out demons. Freely you have received; freely give. 9 “Do not get any gold or silver or copper to take with you in your belts— 10 no bag for the journey or extra shirt or sandals or a staff, for the worker is worth his keep. 11 Whatever town or village you enter, search there for some worthy person and stay at their house until you leave. 12 As you enter the home, give it your greeting. 13 If the home is deserving, let your peace rest on it; if it is not, let your peace return to you. 14 If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, leave that home or town and shake the dust off your feet. 15 Truly I tell you, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town. 16 “I am sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as snakes and as innocent as doves. 17 Be on your guard; you will be handed over to the local councils and be flogged in the synagogues. 18 On my account you will be brought before governors and kings as witnesses to them and to the Gentiles. 19 But when they arrest you, do not worry about what to say or how to say it. At that time you will be given what to say, 20 for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit of your Father speaking through you. 21 “Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child; children will rebel against their parents and have them put to death. 22 You will be hated by everyone because of me, but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved. 23 When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another. Truly I tell you, you will not finish going through the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes. By claiming the last statement of the scripture is talking about Jesus ressurection, you are making him a liar and false prophet. Unless you can prove all the things he predicted in the quoted scripture happened before his ressurection. Who is taking verses out of context now?

<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">No it is after his resurrection. The reason for this is <?:namespace prefix = st1 ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:smarttags" /><ST1:CITY w:st="on">Jerusalem</ST1:CITY> and <ST1:COUNTRY-REGIoN w:st="on"><ST1:PLACE w:st="on">Israel</ST1:PLACE></ST1:COUNTRY-REGIoN> had judgment brought upon it in AD 70.


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><FONT face="Times New Roman"><SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>The term Son of Man is often used in the context of judgment. The judgment of the Son of Man fell upon <ST1:COUNTRY-REGIoN w:st="on"><ST1:PLACE w:st="on">Israel</ST1:PLACE></ST1:COUNTRY-REGIoN> in AD 70.


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">The disciples had not finished going through the towns of <ST1:COUNTRY-REGIoN w:st="on">Israel</ST1:COUNTRY-REGIoN> before the Son of Man came in judgment on <ST1:CITY w:st="on">Jerusalem</ST1:CITY> and <ST1:PLACE w:st="on"><ST1:COUNTRY-REGIoN w:st="on">Israel</ST1:COUNTRY-REGIoN></ST1:PLACE> in AD 70 after the resurrection of Jesus.


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">This is also the fulfillment of Matthew 10:15 the Day of Judgment.


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><O:P><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </O:P>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><FONT face="Times New Roman">In regards to the gentile / Jew question in Mathew 10.18 you see a hint that the message of the disciples would not long be confined to the lost sheep of the house of <ST1:COUNTRY-REGIoN w:st="on"><ST1:PLACE w:st="on">Israel</ST1:PLACE></ST1:COUNTRY-REGIoN> but would also move to the Gentiles. Judgment first to the Jews and then to the whole world.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><O:P><SPAN style="TEXT-DECORATION: none"><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </SPAN></O:P>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><FONT face="Times New Roman">Mathew 10.18. “<I style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal">And you shall be brought before governors (Gentiles) provincial rulers (Gentil<O:P></O:P>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><I style="mso-bidi-font-style: normal"><FONT face="Times New Roman">es) and kings (Gentiles) the highest tribunals (Gentiles) for my sake, for a testimony against them rather, "to them," in order to bear testimony to the truth and its glorious effects.” <O:P></O:P>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><O:P><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman"> </O:P>


<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt" ="Msonormal"><FONT size=3 face="Times New Roman">Later in Mathew 15. 22 Jesus was to heal the daughte
r of the Syrophoenician woman (Gentile).


Ignore this

Edited by Mahdi The Seeke - 11 October 2012 at 10:56am]]> Thu, 11 Oct 2012 00:01:15 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=168883#168883 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Assalamu alaika Caringheart.Let... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=168881#168881 Author: Friendship
Subject: 23672
Posted: 10 October 2012 at 10:41pm

Assalamu alaika Caringheart.

Let me know what you know and understand by an ideal Islamic state please. When did it start in the history of the world? The teaching of Muhammad is governed by conditions in exactly what Jesus son of Maryam said in Matthew 5:18-19, "But I promise you that not even a period or comma will ever disappear from the Law. Everything written in it must happen. If you reject even the least important command in the Law....."
You have to listen and respect the experts in the Sunna of Muhammad. No one is looking for domination. It cannot be in a corporeal matter. The period of indirect rule and colonization should be over by now.

Friendship.  
]]> Wed, 10 Oct 2012 22:41:32 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=168881#168881 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Assalamu alaika Caringheart.You... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=168880#168880 Author: Friendship
Subject: 23672
Posted: 10 October 2012 at 10:30pm

Assalamu alaika Caringheart.

You said: What he(and they, the followers of Islam) does not understand is that there can be no peace as long as Islam insists on domination.
Response: Give examples. Is the Sunna of Muhammad against free will, right of association, equal opportunities? Caringheart! Whatever you and the so called civilized world are attempting to do has been mentioned by Muhammad. Just few days I watched the Spanish moving to France to seek for job. Laziness is not allowed in the teaching of Muhammad. Qur'an 4:97 :Verily! As for those whom the angels take to death while they are wronging themselves, they angels say to them: "In what condition were you?" They reply: "We were oppressed on the earth." They (angels) say: "Was not the earth of Allah spacious enough for you to emigrate therein?"
The holy apostle said, The one who goes out to seek for his sustenance is better than the one who sits in the mosque. The Qur'an exhorts us to seek for legitimacy and work hard. Muhammad was a merchant. Jesus a carpenter. Ishmael a hunter etc. Please read carefully the Madina covenant and all the letters  the holy Apostle wrote. A zimmi has more right over a Muslim in an Islamic state. The only way is to follow the teaching of Muhammad.
Caringheart do you know that the so called civilized world told a lie against me and denied me a visa to visit their country to preach?

Friendship.



]]> Wed, 10 Oct 2012 22:30:18 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=168880#168880 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Assalamu alaika Experiential.That... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=168879#168879 Author: Friendship
Subject: 23672
Posted: 10 October 2012 at 9:55pm

Assalamu alaika Experiential.

That commentary is the THREAD AND THE GENERAL TEACHING OF ALL MESSENGERS FROM ADAM TO JESUS SON OF MARYAM. THAT DOCTRINE WAS EXPLAINED MOST BY MUHAMMAD TO MANKIND. IT IS AN ARTICLE OF FAITH (IMAN). WITHOUT OT NO ONE WILL ENTER PARADISE. WHATEVER JESUS SON OF MARYAM SAID IS ACCEPTABLE IN THE TEACHING OF MUHAMMAD PROVIDED IT IS FROM THE G-D OF ABRAHAM.
SO YOU SEE HOW THE GAP IS NARROWING NOW. JESUS WILL BE RESURRECTED. THIS IS ALSO CONFIRMED BY MUHAMMAD RASULULLAH.  DO YOU KNOW HIS CONVERSATION WITH THE G-D OF ABRAHAM?
Friendship.
]]> Wed, 10 Oct 2012 21:55:58 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=168879#168879 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Still no answer to my question:Specifically... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=168875#168875 Author: Caringheart
Subject: 23672
Posted: 10 October 2012 at 8:28pm

Still no answer to my question:
 
Specifically what is it that Paul teaches that disagrees with what Islam teaches?
]]> Wed, 10 Oct 2012 20:28:01 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=168875#168875 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Originally posted by FriendshipAssalamu... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=168872#168872 Author: Experiential
Subject: 23672
Posted: 10 October 2012 at 3:52pm

Originally posted by Friendship

Assalamu alaika Experiential.

You said: Friendship what bothers me is that Muslims pick and choose New Testament scriptures that suit them, and their arrogance that they think they know the Christian scriptures better than Christians.

Response: I swear by the G-d and Lord of Abraham that I know the New Testament better than the Archbishop of any High ranking of your ravaged Cathedral. The New Testament ideally should consist of only what was revealed to Jesus son of Maryam conforming to what was revealed to Moses and what was allowed in his time as an extension of the oral law. Jesus son of Maryam never knew of his inclusion as the son of G-d of Abraham and all what was attributed to him.  Jesus never knew when Maryam was put under the custody of Zacharius or how he was born. We are certainly proud to be told of the true form of Jesus and we shall not negotiate with that. We  are responsible to what Allah revealed to Muhammad in that what He revealed to Jesus.
Friendship.

Friendship Said

Response: I swear by the G-d and Lord of Abraham that I know the New Testament better than the Archbishop of any High ranking of your ravaged Cathedral.

My Reply

Yeah sure. And I know the Quran better than your Ayatollah !

 

Friendship Said

The New Testament ideally should consist of only what was revealed to Jesus son of Maryam conforming to what was revealed to Moses and what was allowed in his time as an extension of the oral law.

My Reply

Friendship. What qualifies you to know what should be in the New testament? The New Testament we currently have is the same Injil Mohamed had?

Anyway if you believe that The New Testament should only consist of only what was revealed to Jesus son of Maryam conforming to what was revealed to Moses and what was allowed in his time as an extension of the oral law, then

you will see that Jesus was the Messiah that gave his life for the salvation of humanity.

 

Friendship Said

 Jesus son of Maryam never knew of his inclusion as the son of G-d of Abraham and all what was attributed to him.  Jesus never knew when Maryam was put under the custody of Zacharius or how he was born. We are certainly proud to be told of the true form of Jesus and we shall not negotiate with that. We  are responsible to what Allah revealed to Muhammad in that what He revealed to Jesus.

My Reply

Why should I believe Mohamads version that came 6oo years after the eye witness New testament accounts?

 

God Bless

 

 

]]> Wed, 10 Oct 2012 15:52:21 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=168872#168872 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Originally posted by FriendshipAssalamu... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=168871#168871 Author: Experiential
Subject: 23672
Posted: 10 October 2012 at 3:48pm

Originally posted by Friendship

Assalamu alaika Experiential.

I do not know why and how you do not see to reason and commonsense. Without friction will there be motion?
Moses did not live with the Christians assumed followers of Jesus. Jesus lived  most of his life in Galilee where he performed 25 of his 33 miracles. Jesus and Moses did not live in Arabia lest their Message is known.
You will never believe that Muhammad governed the Levi clan of the Children of Israel in Madina and the Christians in Najran. Heraclius surrendered and advised the Romans to do the same. What happened is available for those with an unbiased mind to learn.  The only Messenger of Allah with vast experience of tolerance and how to live with mankind is Muhammad Rasulullah.
Understand that I am not calling or advocating to follow the examples of Muslim Arabs, Pakistanis, Indians or any tribe. I am advocating for following the way of Muhammad. If you will lead in his practice you will be followed. You will certainly rule the Muslim world.
I do not know what your position is in your earthquake ravaged cathedral. I am sure you will fail in uniting the Christians.
Your statement: and that Christians deny the Torahs prophesy’s that Jesus died and rose again for the salvation of humanity and then recite the shada. I don’t think so! is false for according to Reverend Matthew Henry the covenant of grace involves the recompense of singular services.
Friendship.


 

Hello Friendship. Below is a Mathew Henry commentary on the death and resurrection of Jesus The Messiah.

 

“The word resurrection, usually points out our existence beyond the grave. Of the apostle's doctrine not a trace can be found in all the teaching of philosophers. The doctrine of Christ's death and resurrection, is the foundation of Christianity. Remove this, and all our hopes for eternity sink at once.”

Mathew Henry

http://www.christnotes.org/commentary.php?com=mhc&b=46&c=15

 

God Bless



Edited by Experiential - 10 October 2012 at 3:48pm]]> Wed, 10 Oct 2012 15:48:06 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=168871#168871 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Originally posted by Abu LorenAs&#039;alaamu... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=168870#168870 Author: Experiential
Subject: 23672
Posted: 10 October 2012 at 3:44pm

Originally posted by Abu Loren

As'alaamu Alaikkum Mr. Experential

Let's go through your points one by one so we are both clear as day is from night.

Let me explain it once again to you...Paul took away no Jewishness. Jesus the Messiah was a Jew. Paul was a Jew. Mohamed was not.

I don't know if you know anything about the Mosaic Law it is completely 'Jewishness' which Paul said is no longer required as the alleged death of Jesus (pbuh) was enough to close that covenant. Jesus (pbuh) was a Muslim as he had submitted fully to God the Almighty. I really don't know what Paul was.

Mohammed (pbuh) was not a Jew has nothing to do with anything. He was a direct descendant of Prophet Ishmael (pbuh) who was also a Muslim. I don't know if you know or if you are aware but God Almighty had promised 'His friend' Prophet Abraham (pbuh) that all the prophets who would follow him would be his descendants. So no change there.

Jesus’s friends – Peter, James, Judas etc were Jews and they all supported Paul. For example –read Acts 15.22 and 2 Peter 3.15.

They were all Muslims and there is no evidence that they supported Paul, in fact there are indications in the New Testament of the friction between the two factions.

'Jew' and 'Jewishness' are labels that the Children of Israel stuck on themselves. So 'Jew' and 'Jewishness' has no bearing on anything.

The Injil was written by many authors, mainly Jews, Paul was only one of these authors and his writings do not differ from the others and that Jesus died and rose again for the salvation of humanity.

The writings do differ, if you examine it closely then you will see that there are many contradictions because people tried to change what was written originally. They needed to do this to support their new found idealogy of the Trinity and Jesus (pbuh) being the lamb that was lead to the slaughter.

Paul and the other injil authors lived at the time of Jesus. Mohammad did not. Mohammad lived 600 years after Jesus, Paul and the others.

Paul and the other writers of the Injil lived at the time of Jesus (pbuh) and started to write after thirty or fourty years after his Ascension. Muhammed (pbuh) lived as you have said 600 years after the Ascension of Jesus (pbuh) and was chosen because the Injil was corrupted by the hands of men. So it makes sense why the final revelations was given to the final messenger to mankind.

The Torah and Old Testament contain the prophesies of Jesus the Messiah. Not of Mohammad.

Not true. The alleged prophecy of Jesus (pbuh) hangs on a few verses from Isiah allegedly a prophecy about Jesus (pbuh) but it only becomes a propecy of Jesus (pbuh) only by association. If you associate that Jesus (pbuh) was tortured and killed on the cross. Muhammed (pbuh) was prophecied in the OT as well as the NT. The Holy Qur'an confirms this fact.

This is the Jewish tradition to Christianity that Islam just does not have.

Sorry I had have a quiet laugh at this statement. Christians in no way resemble the Jews as Christianity is a Judeo-pagan religion mixing with Roman and Greek theology.

Paul was not an agent of the Roman Empire. He was imprisoned and executed by the Roman Empire.

This is your opinion and you are welcome to it.

Your conspiracy theory doesn’t hold. You thought the Injil was changed at the Council of Nicea which has been proven wrong!

No problem. Modern scholars including Christians are confirming this fact. Just search for it on the internet. When and where was I PROVEN wrong?

Abu Loren Said

I don't know if you know anything about the Mosaic Law it is completely 'Jewishness' which Paul said is no longer required as the alleged death of Jesus (pbuh) was enough to close that covenant. Jesus (pbuh) was a Muslim as he had submitted fully to God the Almighty. I reallydon't know what Paul was.

My Reply

In regards to the Old Covenant (Mosaic law) and the New Covenant the prophet Jeremiah talks about the New Covenant –

 

 “But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people. “Jeremiah 31:33

 

Jesus said “Do not think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil the law.” Matthew 5:17

 

Jesus took the cup of wine and said, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.” (Luke 22:20).

 

With Jesus' birth, life, death, and resurrection the Old Covenant was fulfilled and a new covenant was instituted.

 

The Injil says, “At the moment of Jesus' death on the cross, states that the veil (separating the entrance to the holy of holies) of the Temple was ripped from top to bottom, symbolizing that with Jesus death there was no longer a need for the temple (and the old Jewish religious rituals).”

Matthew 27:51

 

To say Jesus was a Muslim is ridiculous. How could he be a Muslim when he was born 600 years before the new religion of Mohammad. And don’t try playing with word meanings that it was because he was “submitted” to God. That’s just word games and twisting meaning.

Beside the Quran contradicts itself as to who was the first Muslim. Was it Moses? Was it other believers at the time of Moses? Was it  pharaohs magicians? was it Mohammad? Was it Noah ? or was it Adam ?

 

 Abu Loren Said

Mohammed (pbuh) was not a Jew has nothing to do with anything. He was a direct descendant of Prophet Ishmael (pbuh) who was also a Muslim. I don't know if you know or if you are aware but God Almighty had promised 'His friend' Prophet Abraham (pbuh) that all the prophets who would follow him would be his descendants. So no change there.

My Reply

Mohammad did not understand the Jewish foundation that Christianity is based on. How could Ishmael be a Muslim before the new religion of Mohammad. And Ishmael was of the line of Hagar, the slave woman, not of the free woman Sarah and Gods blessing and promise to Isaac. As a result he brings a slave religion and not the heritage to ever lasting life.

 

Abu Loren Said

They (Peter, James, Judas etc) were all Muslims and there is no evidence that they supported Paul, in fact there are indications in the New Testament of the friction between the two factions.

My Reply

They (Peter, James, Judas etc) were not Muslims. To say they were Muslims is ridiculous. How could they be Muslims when they was born 600 years before the new religion of Mohammad. And don’t try playing with word meanings that it was because he was “submitted” to God. That’s just word play.

Beside your Quran contradicts itself as to who was the first Muslim. Was it Moses? Was it other believers at time of Moses? Was it  pharaohs magicians? Was it Mohammad? Was it Noah ? or was it Adam ?

If you want evidence they supported Paul read The Book of Acts 15.22 and 2 Peter 3.15.

 

Abu Loren Said

'Jew' and 'Jewishness' are labels that the Children of Israel stuck on themselves. So 'Jew' and 'Jewishness' has no bearing on anything.

My Reply

Ultimately it goes back to the descendents of Abraham. The Jews go back to the free woman Sarah and Gods blessing and promise to Isaac, not the line of Hagar the slave woman and her son Ishmael. As a result Jews and Christians are not of Hagars slave religion.

 

Abu Loren Said

The writings (Injil) do differ, if you examine it closely then you will see that there are many contradictions because people tried to change what was written originally. They needed to do this to support their new found idealogy of the Trinity and Jesus (pbuh) being the lamb that was lead to the slaughter.

My Reply

In regards to Jesus as the “Lamb of God” there are prophesies and verses in the Torah and Injil that refer to The Messiah being offered as a “sacrificial lamb”. For example-

 

In the Torah Gods forgiveness is based on atonement or cleansing / forgiveness through the shedding of blood with animal sacrifice at the temple. This animal sacrifice and festivals such as The Passover Festival and Yom Kipper (Day of Atonement) Festival are symbolic of the death and resurrection of Jesus .

 

Also in the Torah prophesies point to The Messiah dying–

Piercing His hands and feet (Psalm 22:16; Matthew 27:31)

Being crucified with thieves (Isaiah 53:12; Matthew 27:38)

Praying for His persecutors (Isaiah 53:12; Luke 23:34)

Piercing His side (Zechariah 12:10; John 19:34)

 

In the Injil you have verses like –

 

The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, "Look, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world.

John 1:29.

 

"Then he took the cup, gave thanks and offered it to them, saying, 'Drink from it, all of you. This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.'" Matthew 26:27-28

 

“This bread is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.” John 6:50-59

 

"For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many." Mark 10:45

 

Notice Paul wrote none of the above verses. And in regards to you saying people changing what was written in the Injil, Muslims have never been able to prove what the original Injil was before any tampering.

Prove to me where in the Quaran it says man tampered with the Injil. I asked you to do this before and all you could produce was something about monks and monasteries.

 

In regards to the Trinity, Paul never used the word and you will find it nowhere in the bible. Just to make it clear, Christians believe in only ONE God. However there are many verses in the Torah and Injil that refer to that ONE God having more than one aspect and more specifically three aspects to his oneness.

 
Abu Loren Said

Paul and the other writers of the Injil lived at the time of Jesus (pbuh) and started to write after thirty or fourty years after his Ascension. Muhammed (pbuh) lived as you have said 600 years after the Ascension of Jesus (pbuh) and was chosen because the Injil was corrupted by the hands of men. So it makes sense why the final revelations was given to the final messenger to mankind.

My Reply

Prove it was corrupted. You cant. Your attempt at the Council of Nicea argument has already failed. And besides why believe something written 600 years after the fact.

 
Abu Loren Said

Not true. The alleged prophecy of Jesus (pbuh) hangs on a few verses from Isiah allegedly a prophecy about Jesus (pbuh) but it only becomes a propecy of Jesus (pbuh) only by association. If you associate that Jesus (pbuh) was tortured and killed on the cross. Muhammed (pbuh) was prophecied in the OT as well as the NT. The Holy Qur'an confirms this fact.

My Reply.

A few verses from Isaiah only! Really?  I don’t think so! Here they are -

Born of a virgin (Isaiah 7:14; Matthew 1:21-23)

A descendant of Abraham (Genesis 12:1-3; 22:18; Matthew 1:1; Galatians 3:16)

Of the tribe of Judah (Genesis 49:10; Luke 3:23, 33; Hebrews 7:14)

Of the house of David (2 Samuel 7:12-16; Matthew 1:1)

Born in Bethlehem (Micah 5:2, Matthew 2:1; Luke 2:4-7)

Taken to Egypt (Hosea 11:1; Matthew 2:14-15)

Herod´s killing of the infants (Jeremiah 31:15; Matthew 2:16-18)

Anointed by the Holy Spirit (Isaiah 11:2; Matthew 3:16-17)

Heralded by the messenger of the Lord (John the Baptist) (Isaiah 40:3-5; Malachi 3:1; Matthew 3:1-3)

Would perform miracles (Isaiah 35:5-6; Matthew 9:35)

Would preach good news (Isaiah 61:1; Luke 4:14-21)

Would minister in Galilee (Isaiah 9:1; Matthew 4:12-16) Would cleanse the Temple (Malachi 3:1; Matthew 21:12-13)

Would first present Himself as King 173,880 days from the decree to rebuild Jerusalem (Daniel 9:25; Matthew 21:4-11)

Would enter Jerusalem as a king on a donkey (Zechariah 9:9; Matthew 21:4-9)

Would be rejected by Jews (Psalm 118:22; I Peter 2:7)

Die a humiliating death (Psalm 22; Isaiah 53) involving:

rejection (Isaiah 53:3; John 1:10-11; 7:5,48)

betrayal by a friend (Psalm 41:9; Luke 22:3-4; John 13:18)

sold for 30 pieces of silver (Zechariah 11:12; Matthew 26:14-15)

silence before His accusers (Isaiah 53:7; Matthew 27:12-14)

being mocked (Psalm 22: 7-8; Matthew 27:31)

beaten (Isaiah 52:14; Matthew 27:26)

spit upon (Isaiah 50:6; Matthew 27:30)

piercing His hands and feet (Psalm 22:16; Matthew 27:31)

being crucified with thieves (Isaiah 53:12; Matthew 27:38)

praying for His persecutors (Isaiah 53:12; Luke 23:34)

piercing His side (Zechariah 12:10; John 19:34)

given gall and vinegar to drink (Psalm 69:21, Matthew 27:34, Luke 23:36)

no broken bones (Psalm 34:20; John 19:32-36)

buried in a rich man’s tomb (Isaiah 53:9; Matthew 27:57-60)

casting lots for His garments (Psalm 22:18; John 19:23-24)

Would rise from the dead!! (Psalm 16:10; Mark 16:6; Acts 2:31)

Ascend into Heaven (Psalm 68:18; Acts 1:9)

Would sit down at the right hand of God (Psalm 110:1; Hebrews 1:3)

 

Far too many to just be by association. Prove to me that Mohammad was prophesied in the Torah.

 

 

Abu Loren Said

Sorry I had have a quiet laugh at this statement. Christians in no way resemble the Jews as Christianity is a Judeo-pagan religion mixing with Roman and Greek theology.

My Reply

Of course Christians don’t resemble the Jews in terms of their outward religion. I am not a Jew, I and have no desire to be. What’s more there is nothing in the Injil that require me to look like a Jew culturally or be Jewish in my outward behavior. However the foundation to my relationship with God is based on Jewish promises, prophesies and heritage.

 

I challenge you to prove to me that Christianity is a Judeo-pagan religion mixing with Roman and Greek theology.  You have mentioned the Trinity and Jesus as the sacrifial lamb of God but if you see my above response you will see they are based on the Torah and Injil.

As mentioned if you are so worried about Paul and a Roman pagan plot, I suggest you worry more about al Hajar al-Aswad the Arab pagan rock you bow to and why Mohamed incorporated a pagan practice into his new religion.

 

Abu Loren Said

This is your opinion and you are welcome to it.

My Reply

It’s a historical fact (Paul was not an agent of the Roman Empire. He was imprisoned and executed by the Roman Empire) Read Ephesians 6:20 and you will see he was in prison chains.

The early writer Ignatius, probably around 110, writes that Paul was martyred. According to Christian tradition, Paul was beheaded in Rome during the reign of Nero around the mid-60s at Tre Fontane Abbey.

Your version of events based on a new religion that emerged 600 years later so has no credibility.

 
Abu Loren Said

No problem. Modern scholars including Christians are confirming this fact. Just search for it on the internet. When and where was I PROVEN wrong?

My Reply

Im not interested in internet conspiracy theories. Im interested in facts and in relation to the Council of Nicea here are the facts and I challenge you to refute them!

The New testament was written approximately from 55Ad to 100Ad. Nicea was 325AD. More than 300 years later !

The New testament was firmly established before Nicea and no decisions were made at Nicea as to what would be included in the bible. All they discussed was the meaning of “God the Son” and the date of Easter.

For the Emperor Constantine to add and subtract words is ridiculous. The Christian world  extended from Britain in the west to  Armenia in the north  half way down the coast of East Africa in the south and all the way to China and India in the east.

There was no one powerful enough to seize every single copy of the New Testament in every church in the world to falsify the New Testament.

Also it would mean forcibly changing the practices and beliefs of Christians from around the world.

Also they would have to remove all traces of the original New Testament. Not only were there the copies of the New Testament, but many writers had already quoted extensively from it in the first, second and third centuries. We know of over 32,000 of these quotations.

To make the new New Testament accepted, the conspirators would have had to force believers to adopt new customs and ceremonies such as communion (symbolic of the crucifixion of Jesus), baptism (symbolic of the forgiveness of sins in Christ), and religious belief in the Cross. What were the older ceremonies? Why do we have no record of them?

 

These are the facts about the Council of Nicea and I challenge you to refute them.

]]> Wed, 10 Oct 2012 15:44:55 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=168870#168870 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Originally posted by Mahdi The... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=168867#168867 Author: Experiential
Subject: 23672
Posted: 10 October 2012 at 3:00pm

Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

Mahdi Said Let us look at some more
information. Matthew 10:23
When they persecute you in
one town, flee to the next, for
truly, I say to you, you will not
have gone through all the towns of Israel before the Son
of Man comes.
Maybe all nations = Israel My Reply Mahdi. Its true - they actually
did not go through all the
towns of Israel before the Son
of Man came, because the Son
of Man did come - after his
resurrection.


Very good answer Experiential.

Matthew 10 New International Version
(NIV) Jesus Sends Out the Twelve Jesus called his twelve disciples to him and gave
them authority to drive out
impure spirits and to heal
every disease and sickness. 2 These are the names of the twelve apostles: first, Simon
(who is called Peter) and his
brother Andrew; James son of
Zebedee, and his brother John; 3 Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax
collector; James son of
Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus; 4 Simon the Zealot and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him. 5 These twelve Jesus sent out with the following
instructions: “Do not go
among the Gentiles or enter
any town of the Samaritans. 6 Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel. 7 As you go, proclaim this message: ‘The kingdom of
heaven has come near.’ 8 Heal the sick, raise the dead,
cleanse those who have
leprosy,[a] drive out demons. Freely you have received;
freely give. 9 “Do not get any gold or silver or copper to take with you in
your belts— 10 no bag for the journey or extra shirt or
sandals or a staff, for the
worker is worth his keep. 11 Whatever town or village you enter, search there for
some worthy person and stay
at their house until you leave. 12 As you enter the home, give it your greeting. 13 If the home is deserving, let your
peace rest on it; if it is not, let
your peace return to you. 14 If anyone will not welcome you
or listen to your words, leave
that home or town and shake
the dust off your feet. 15 Truly I tell you, it will be more
bearable for Sodom and
Gomorrah on the day of
judgment than for that town. 16 “I am sending you out like sheep among wolves.
Therefore be as shrewd as
snakes and as innocent as
doves. 17 Be on your guard; you will be handed over to the
local councils and be flogged
in the synagogues. 18 On my account you will be brought
before governors and kings as
witnesses to them and to the
Gentiles. 19 But when they arrest you, do not worry about
what to say or how to say it.
At that time you will be given
what to say, 20 for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit
of your Father speaking
through you. 21 “Brother will betray brother to death, and a father
his child; children will rebel
against their parents and have
them put to death. 22 You will be hated by everyone because
of me, but the one who stands
firm to the end will be saved. 23 When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another.
Truly I tell you, you will not
finish going through the
towns of Israel before the Son
of Man comes.

By claiming the last statement of the scripture is talking about Jesus ressurection, you are making him a liar and false prophet. Unless you can prove all the things he predicted in the quoted scripture happened before his ressurection. Who is taking verses out of context now?

No it is after his resurrection. The reason for this is Jerusalem and Israel had judgment brought upon it in AD 70.

 The term Son of Man is often used in the context of judgment. The judgment of the Son of Man fell upon Israel in AD 70.

The disciples had not finished going through the towns of Israel before the Son of Man came in judgment on Jerusalem and Israel in AD 70 after the resurrection of Jesus.

This is also the fulfillment of Matthew 10:15 the Day of Judgment.

 

In regards to the gentile / Jew question in Mathew 10.18 you see a hint that the message of the disciples would not long be confined to the lost sheep of the house of Israel but would also move to the Gentiles. Judgment first to the Jews and then to the whole world. 

 

Mathew 10.18. “And you shall be brought before governors (Gentiles) provincial rulers (Gentil

es) and kings (Gentiles) the highest tribunals (Gentiles) for my sake, for a testimony against them rather, "to them," in order to bear testimony to the truth and its glorious effects.”

 

Later in Mathew 15. 22 Jesus was to heal the daughter of the Syrophoenician woman (Gentile).



Edited by Experiential - 10 October 2012 at 3:01pm]]> Wed, 10 Oct 2012 15:00:29 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=168867#168867 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Originally posted by Abu LorenAs&#039;alaamu... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=168799#168799 Author: Larry
Subject: 23672
Posted: 09 October 2012 at 3:58am

Originally posted by Abu Loren

As'alaamu Alaikkum Mr. Experential

Let's go through your points one by one so we are both clear as day is from night.

Let me explain it once again to you...Paul took away no Jewishness. Jesus the Messiah was a Jew. Paul was a Jew. Mohamed was not.

I don't know if you know anything about the Mosaic Law it is completely 'Jewishness' which Paul said is no longer required as the alleged death of Jesus (pbuh) was enough to close that covenant. Jesus (pbuh) was a Muslim as he had submitted fully to God the Almighty. I really don't know what Paul was.

   Paul is referring to the fact that the Old Testament was completed and fulfilled in the New Testament. The crucifixion of Jesus Christ was the ultimate sacrifice and after that animal sacrifices, called for in the Old Testament, no longer applied. The Old Testament was superseded by the New Testament, or New "Covenant" between God and His people.

Mohammed (pbuh) was not a Jew has nothing to do with anything. He was a direct descendant of Prophet Ishmael (pbuh) who was also a Muslim. I don't know if you know or if you are aware but God Almighty had promised 'His friend' Prophet Abraham (pbuh) that all the prophets who would follow him would be his descendants. So no change there.

   Really? Could you produce the evidence for your claim that God promised Abraham that all future "prophets" would be DIRECT descendants of Abraham? I would be interested to see your proofs of this "promise" in the cases of prophets such as Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Hosea, Zechariah, Malachi, etc.

Jesus’s friends – Peter, James, Judas etc were Jews and they all supported Paul. For example –read Acts 15.22 and 2 Peter 3.15.

They were all Muslims and there is no evidence that they supported Paul, in fact there are indications in the New Testament of the friction between the two factions.

   Please produce your "proof" that Peter, James, Judas, etc. were really "Muslims" who did NOT support Paul. And please produce your "proof" that there was "friction" between these two supposed "factions."

'Jew' and 'Jewishness' are labels that the Children of Israel stuck on themselves. So 'Jew' and 'Jewishness' has no bearing on anything.

   "Jew and Jewishness" have been around for over three thousand years, far earlier than Islam or Muhammad even existed. To retroactively call any Biblical personages "Muslims" is simply incorrect. "Muslims" have only existed since the 7th century A.D., after the founding of Islam by Muhammad. Even if they claim that "Islam" preceded Judaism and Christianity. It is simply a claim with no Biblical proofs or support.

The Injil was written by many authors, mainly Jews, Paul was only one of these authors and his writings do not differ from the others and that Jesus died and rose again for the salvation of humanity.

   I agree.

The writings do differ, if you examine it closely then you will see that there are many contradictions because people tried to change what was written originally. They needed to do this to support their new found idealogy of the Trinity and Jesus (pbuh) being the lamb that was lead to the slaughter.

   If there is any written "work" that has MANY contradictions with the Old and New Testaments, it is the Qur'an. The Bible has been continuously studied and reinterpreted many times as new scholarship and archaeological findings come into being. The "New King James Version" of the Bible that I use differs in language used because the original King James Bible was written in archaic Elizabethan English that is no longer used. Does this mean that they "contradict" each other? There were 66 authors of the Bible and the fact that there are almost no contradictions or major changes between them shows how closely the Old and New Testaments are in form and in message. As I said, the Qur'an has SERIOUS and Manifold contradictions and differences with Biblical scripture, and if any work is deemed "unreliable" it is the Qur'an.

Paul and the other injil authors lived at the time of Jesus. Mohammad did not. Mohammad lived 600 years after Jesus, Paul and the others.

   I agree.

Paul and the other writers of the Injil lived at the time of Jesus (pbuh) and started to write after thirty or fourty years after his Ascension. Muhammed (pbuh) lived as you have said 600 years after the Ascension of Jesus (pbuh) and was chosen because the Injil was corrupted by the hands of men. So it makes sense why the final revelations was given to the final messenger to mankind.

   The only problem being that the only "prophet" not mentioned in the New Testament or "Injil" is Muhammad. There are no references to him (although Muslims like to claim that the word "paraclete" in Greek actually refers to Muhammad himself, though there is NO Biblical support for that claim), or any other recognition of him as the "final" and "seal of the prophets." But all other prophets are named in the Bible. If anyone has "corrupted" the Old and New Testaments it is Muhammad. And it seems so "convenient" for Muslims to use certain writings in the Old and New Testaments to show that Islam is the "true" religion, while ANY writings in the Bible that CONTRADICT the Qur'an are simply dismissed as "corrupt." I would be interested if a Muslim author could tell us which particular scriptural verses are "corrupt" and which of those that are true.

The Torah and Old Testament contain the prophesies of Jesus the Messiah. Not of Mohammad.

   I agree.

Not true. The alleged prophecy of Jesus (pbuh) hangs on a few verses from Isiah allegedly a prophecy about Jesus (pbuh) but it only becomes a propecy of Jesus (pbuh) only by association. If you associate that Jesus (pbuh) was tortured and killed on the cross. Muhammed (pbuh) was prophecied in the OT as well as the NT. The Holy Qur'an confirms this fact.

   The "alleged" prophecies concerning Jesus Christ as the Messiah are not only in the Book of Isaiah. Although the prophecies of Isaiah concerning the Messiah were made 700 years before the birth of Jesus Christ. The entire New Testament of Jesus Christ is exactly that, the New "Covenant" between God and His people. And the Bible is explicit in it's writings concerning the crucifixion, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ as the Son of God. Muhammad is NOT mentioned even ONCE in the Old or New Tetaments. The only source for Muhammad being a "prophet" is in the Qur'an, which was supposedly "revealed' to Muhammad himself, so there is no mystery as to why Muhammad is mentioned as a "prophet" in the Qur'an only.

This is the Jewish tradition to Christianity that Islam just does not have.

   I agree.

Sorry I had have a quiet laugh at this statement. Christians in no way resemble the Jews as Christianity is a Judeo-pagan religion mixing with Roman and Greek theology.

   Jesus was a Jew, and He fulfilled the prophecies of the Old Testament, ALL OF THEM, and the religion that follows His ministry is Christianity itself.

   You say that Christianity is a "Judeo-pagan religion mixing with Roman and Greek theology." Is that the same thing in the case of Islam being only a repackaging of Arab paganism of the 7th century A.D.? Both Muhammad's father and uncle had "Allah" (a pagan deity) as part of their names before Muhammad was even born. Also, every ritual connected to the "Hajj" is pagan in origin. The "two seamless white garments," "the running between the two hills," the stoning of the devil," the circumnambulation around the Kaaba a fixed number of times," "praying in the direction of the Kaaba," etc. The famous "Black Stone" was one of the 360 pagan idols in the Kaaba, and the only pagan idol that Muhammad did not destroy. Not only was this idol kept, it was cemented into the corner of the Kaaba itself and is highly venerated by Muslims who attempt to kiss or touch it (with their hands or even with a stick, etc.)

   If any religion is based on "pagan theology" it is Islam itself.

Paul was not an agent of the Roman Empire. He was imprisoned and executed by the Roman Empire.

   I agree.

This is your opinion and you are welcome to it.

   I agree.

Your conspiracy theory doesn’t hold. You thought the Injil was changed at the Council of Nicea which has been proven wrong!

   The "Council of Nicea" did not "change" the New Testament (Or "Injil" as you call it, but "Injil" is a Greek word, not Arabic). The Council of Nicea was the place where the doctrine of the Trinity was formally announced.

   This is somewhat like what happened with the Qur'an when it was "standardized" by Uthman. And any other copy of the Qur'an that differed with Uthman's mushaf such as those of Ibn Masub and Ubay B. Ka'ab), was ordered to be destroyed by burning. Uthman used "Hafsah's Codex" as the model for the Qur'an's standardization and returned the codex to Hafsah afterward, undamaged and intact. It was only later that Islamic "authorities" decided that the original Qur'an, Hafsah's Codex" needed to be destroyed also. Which is strange because Uthman used it to make "four perfect copies" before returning it to Hafsah, as he promised her.

No problem. Modern scholars including Christians are confirming this fact. Just search for it on the internet. When and where was I PROVEN wrong?


   And, by the way, I have no idea of where you get the idea that Christians try to refer to themselves as "Israelites." The "Children of Israel" were the "Israelites" and even in the Qur'an are directed to settle into their own land that God provided for them.

   But the words "Islam" and "Muslim" are necver mentioned even one time in the Old or New Testaments. That is because "Islam" and "Muslims" were named for the first time more than 600 years after the New Testament, in the 7th century A.D. in the Qur'an. Even though Muslims try to pretend that Islam and the Qur'an actually PREDATED both the Old and New Testaments!!! Rather "convenient" for Muslims, don't you think?

   Also, there is supposedly a Qur'an "on tablets preserved" intact in heaven that is the same as the Qur'an today. The problem is that even when the Qur'an claims to be written in "pure Arabic," there are numerous foreign words in the Qur'an, including Greek, Aramaic, Assyrian, Ethiopic, etc. A coincidence? I don't think so!

Larry ]]> Tue, 09 Oct 2012 03:58:05 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=168799#168799 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : As&#039;alaamu Alaikkum Mr. Experential Let&#039;s... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=168792#168792 Author: Abu Loren
Subject: 23672
Posted: 09 October 2012 at 1:14am

As'alaamu Alaikkum Mr. Experential

Let's go through your points one by one so we are both clear as day is from night.

Let me explain it once again to you...Paul took away no Jewishness. Jesus the Messiah was a Jew. Paul was a Jew. Mohamed was not.

I don't know if you know anything about the Mosaic Law it is completely 'Jewishness' which Paul said is no longer required as the alleged death of Jesus (pbuh) was enough to close that covenant. Jesus (pbuh) was a Muslim as he had submitted fully to God the Almighty. I really don't know what Paul was.

Mohammed (pbuh) was not a Jew has nothing to do with anything. He was a direct descendant of Prophet Ishmael (pbuh) who was also a Muslim. I don't know if you know or if you are aware but God Almighty had promised 'His friend' Prophet Abraham (pbuh) that all the prophets who would follow him would be his descendants. So no change there.

Jesus’s friends – Peter, James, Judas etc were Jews and they all supported Paul. For example –read Acts 15.22 and 2 Peter 3.15.

They were all Muslims and there is no evidence that they supported Paul, in fact there are indications in the New Testament of the friction between the two factions.

'Jew' and 'Jewishness' are labels that the Children of Israel stuck on themselves. So 'Jew' and 'Jewishness' has no bearing on anything.

The Injil was written by many authors, mainly Jews, Paul was only one of these authors and his writings do not differ from the others and that Jesus died and rose again for the salvation of humanity.

The writings do differ, if you examine it closely then you will see that there are many contradictions because people tried to change what was written originally. They needed to do this to support their new found idealogy of the Trinity and Jesus (pbuh) being the lamb that was lead to the slaughter.

Paul and the other injil authors lived at the time of Jesus. Mohammad did not. Mohammad lived 600 years after Jesus, Paul and the others.

Paul and the other writers of the Injil lived at the time of Jesus (pbuh) and started to write after thirty or fourty years after his Ascension. Muhammed (pbuh) lived as you have said 600 years after the Ascension of Jesus (pbuh) and was chosen because the Injil was corrupted by the hands of men. So it makes sense why the final revelations was given to the final messenger to mankind.

The Torah and Old Testament contain the prophesies of Jesus the Messiah. Not of Mohammad.

Not true. The alleged prophecy of Jesus (pbuh) hangs on a few verses from Isiah allegedly a prophecy about Jesus (pbuh) but it only becomes a propecy of Jesus (pbuh) only by association. If you associate that Jesus (pbuh) was tortured and killed on the cross. Muhammed (pbuh) was prophecied in the OT as well as the NT. The Holy Qur'an confirms this fact.

This is the Jewish tradition to Christianity that Islam just does not have.

Sorry I had have a quiet laugh at this statement. Christians in no way resemble the Jews as Christianity is a Judeo-pagan religion mixing with Roman and Greek theology.

Paul was not an agent of the Roman Empire. He was imprisoned and executed by the Roman Empire.

This is your opinion and you are welcome to it.

Your conspiracy theory doesn’t hold. You thought the Injil was changed at the Council of Nicea which has been proven wrong!

No problem. Modern scholars including Christians are confirming this fact. Just search for it on the internet. When and where was I PROVEN wrong?]]> Tue, 09 Oct 2012 01:14:24 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=168792#168792 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Originally posted by Mahdi The... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=168784#168784 Author: Experiential
Subject: 23672
Posted: 08 October 2012 at 7:47pm

Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

Experiential, you are simply making excuses for Peter. There is nothing for Peter to fear if Jesus told him to go to all nations. So he is more afraid of criticism from his fellow disciples than his master. That rsises another question. Why would his fellow disciples(i.e James) object to him associating with gentiles if he was following Jesus instructions to teach all creation? Even when visiting Cornelius, Peter did not say that 'Jesus told us to teach all nations' but refees to a vision. Jesus never told his disciples to go first to jews then gentiles. Quote the appropriate scripture if i am wrong. What i am trying to establish is that based on the behaviour of the disciples in the verses i quoted, Jesus never instructed them to teach 'all creation' as in Matthew 28:18. The evidence is consistent with statements in Matthew 10:5-6 and Matthew 15:24.

Mahdi Said

Experiential, you are simply making excuses for Peter. There is nothing for Peter to fear if Jesus told him to go to all nations. So he is more afraid of criticism from his fellow disciples than his master.

My Reply

Hello Mahdi. Read Mark 14.69, Luke 22.54 Mathew 26.73 and John 18.13 and you will see what a coward Peter could be. He even denied knowing Jesus!

 

 Mahdi Said

That raises another question. Why would his fellow disciples(i.e James) object to him associating with gentiles if he was following Jesus instructions to teach all creation?

My Reply

But Mahdi, James did support Paul going to the gentiles! See The Book of Acts 15.13 -30.

 

Also here are some other verses that show the Church leaders eg. Peter and John etc agreed with Paul to go to the gentiles-

Peter refers how they (gentiles) used to be pagans - 1Peter 4:3 For you have spent enough time in the past doing what pagans choose to do--living in debauchery, lust, drunkenness, orgies, carousing and detestable idolatry. 

 

Peter said he supported Paul in 2Peter 3:15 Bear in mind that our Lord's patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 

 

John (not Paul) said in 1John 4:9 This is how God showed his love among us: He sent his one and only Son into the world that we might live through him. 

 

John (not Paul) said in 1John 4:14 And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent his Son to be the Savior of the world. 

 

John (not Paul) said in 2John 1:7 Many deceivers, who do not acknowledge Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh, have gone out into the world. Any such person is the deceiver and the antichrist. 

 

Peter (not Paul) quoting the Old testament prophet Joel said in Thre Book of Act 2:17 "'In the last days, God says, I will pour out my Spirit on all people. Your sons and daughters will prophesy, your young men will see visions, your old men will dream dreams. 

 

And Peter (not Paul) said in Act 2:39 The promise is for you and your children and for all who are far off--for all whom the Lord our God will call." 

 

Also remember other church leaders like Mathew, Mark and  Luke would not have written the words of Jesus to go to the gentiles if they did not believe it themselves.

 

 

Mahdi Said

Even when visiting Cornelius, Peter did not say that 'Jesus told us to teach all nations' but refers to a vision.

My Reply

Yes it was after the vision, but Peter would still have refused to act on the vision if Jesus had never said to go to the gentiles.

 Besides there are plenty of examples where the disciples didn’t understand what Jesus was saying until later. For example at first they thought Jesus as the Messiah would be a military ruler.

 

Mahdi Said

Jesus never told his disciples to go first to Jews then gentiles. Quote the appropriate scripture if i am wrong.

My Reply.

OK. Here they are.

Luke 24:46.  “He told them, "This is what is written: The Christ will suffer and rise from the dead on the third day, 

Luke 24:47 and repentance and forgiveness of sins will be preached in his name to all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.”

 

Acts 1:7. “He said to them: "It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority. “

 

Acts 1:8 “But you will receive power when the Holy Spirit comes on you; and you will be my witnesses in Jerusalem, and in all Judea and Samaria, and to the ends of the earth." 

 

Peter (not Paul ) said in Act 3:25 “And you are heirs of the prophets and of the covenant God made with your fathers. He said to Abraham, 'Through your offspring all peoples on earth will be blessed.'

 

And again Peter (not Paul) said in Act 11:17 So if God gave them the same gift as he gave us, who believed in the Lord Jesus Christ, who was I to think that I could oppose God?" 

 

 

Mahdi Said

What I am trying to establish is that based on the behavior of the disciples in the verses I quoted, Jesus never instructed them to teach 'all creation' as in Matthew 28:18. The evidence is consistent with statements in Matthew 10:5-6 and Matthew 15:24.

My Reply

I think from the above verses it is obvious. First to the Jew and then to the gentile.

]]> Mon, 08 Oct 2012 19:47:34 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=168784#168784 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Originally posted by Abu Loren Originally... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=168782#168782 Author: Experiential
Subject: 23672
Posted: 08 October 2012 at 6:21pm

Originally posted by Abu Loren

Originally posted by Caringheart



I think it is obvious that you have not read Paul.  I think it would be good if you would.  You would find much of what he was teaching is in alignment with Islamic teaching.  Please if you would tell me what exactly you are disagreeing with in his teaching.  I would like to know and understand.  Thanks.
 
Peace,
Caringheart



Of course I have read Paul's version of things. I completely deny all of it as fake because his premise lies in his claim that he had a vision of Jesus (pbuh) on the road to Damascus when Jesus (pbuh) wasn't even dead.

He is a clever manipulator and he knew the Torah inside out as he was a Pharisee and he manipulated the OT to suit his needs.

Jews in his day despised the Romans who were the occupying force in Israel. Although Paul was a Jew he was born in Tarsus which was in Asia Minor. No self respecting Jew in his day took up Roman citizenship. This in itself tells me that he was a dubious character.

I still maintain that Paul was a liar and a fraud. Because of his false teachings he has lead billions of people throughout history to hell fire.

 

Abu Loren said

Of course I have read Paul's version of things. I completely deny all of it as fake because his premise lies in his claim that he had a vision of Jesus (pbuh) on the road to Damascus when Jesus (pbuh) wasn't even dead.

My Reply

You are not reading The Book of Acts properly. Paul’s vision was after the crucifixion and resurrection.

 

Abu Loren said

He is a clever manipulator and he knew the Torah inside out as he was a Pharisee and he manipulated the OT to suit his needs. Jews in his day despised the Romans who were the occupying force in Israel.

My Reply

Then you should know then that as a Pharisee he would resist going to gentiles.

 

Abu Loren said

Although Paul was a Jew he was born in Tarsus which was in Asia Minor. No self respecting Jew in his day took up Roman citizenship. This in itself tells me that he was a dubious character.

My Reply

You need to know your history better before participating in conspiracy theories. You thought the Injil was changed at the Council of Nicea which has been proven wrong.

You said Paul took up Roman citizenship. Actually Paul did not take up Roman citizenship. Paul was a Roman citizen by birth. He was born in the city of Tarsus and a hundred years previously the Roman politician Anthony had conferred Roman citizenship upon all the inhabitants of Tarsus. paul was a Roman citizen automatically, its not something he chose like you say.

 

Abu Loren said

I still maintain that Paul was a liar and a fraud. Because of his false teachings he has lead billions of people throughout history to hell fire.

Abu Loren

My Reply

Paul was imprisoned and executed by the Roman Empire. He obviously was not an agent of the Roman Empire !

The Church leaders such as Peter, James, were Jews and they all supported him. For example – read The Book of Acts 15.22 and 2 Peter 3.15.

 

As mentioned if you are so worried about Paul and a Roman pagan plot, I suggest you worry more about al Hajar al-Aswad the Arab pagan rock you bow to and why Mohamed incorporated a pagan practice into his new religion.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 



Edited by Experiential - 08 October 2012 at 6:23pm]]> Mon, 08 Oct 2012 18:21:32 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=168782#168782 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Assalamu alaika Experiential.You... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=168779#168779 Author: Friendship
Subject: 23672
Posted: 08 October 2012 at 3:35pm

Assalamu alaika Experiential.

You said: Friendship what bothers me is that Muslims pick and choose New Testament scriptures that suit them, and their arrogance that they think they know the Christian scriptures better than Christians.

Response: I swear by the G-d and Lord of Abraham that I know the New Testament better than the Archbishop of any High ranking of your ravaged Cathedral. The New Testament ideally should consist of only what was revealed to Jesus son of Maryam conforming to what was revealed to Moses and what was allowed in his time as an extension of the oral law. Jesus son of Maryam never knew of his inclusion as the son of G-d of Abraham and all what was attributed to him.  Jesus never knew when Maryam was put under the custody of Zacharius or how he was born. We are certainly proud to be told of the true form of Jesus and we shall not negotiate with that. We  are responsible to what Allah revealed to Muhammad in that what He revealed to Jesus.

Friendship.

]]> Mon, 08 Oct 2012 15:35:10 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=168779#168779 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Assalamu alaika Experiential.I... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=168778#168778 Author: Friendship
Subject: 23672
Posted: 08 October 2012 at 1:45pm

Assalamu alaika Experiential.

I do not know why and how you do not see to reason and commonsense. Without friction will there be motion?
Moses did not live with the Christians assumed followers of Jesus. Jesus lived  most of his life in Galilee where he performed 25 of his 33 miracles. Jesus and Moses did not live in Arabia lest their Message is known.
You will never believe that Muhammad governed the Levi clan of the Children of Israel in Madina and the Christians in Najran. Heraclius surrendered and advised the Romans to do the same. What happened is available for those with an unbiased mind to learn.  The only Messenger of Allah with vast experience of tolerance and how to live with mankind is Muhammad Rasulullah.
Understand that I am not calling or advocating to follow the examples of Muslim Arabs, Pakistanis, Indians or any tribe. I am advocating for following the way of Muhammad. If you will lead in his practice you will be followed. You will certainly rule the Muslim world.
I do not know what your position is in your earthquake ravaged cathedral. I am sure you will fail in uniting the Christians.
Your statement: and that Christians deny the Torahs prophesy’s that Jesus died and rose again for the salvation of humanity and then recite the shada. I don’t think so! is false for according to Reverend Matthew Henry the covenant of grace involves the recompense of singular services.

Friendship.


 


Edited by Friendship - 08 October 2012 at 1:57pm]]> Mon, 08 Oct 2012 13:45:56 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=168778#168778 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Originally posted by Experiential Any... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=168777#168777 Author: Caringheart
Subject: 23672
Posted: 08 October 2012 at 1:06pm

Originally posted by Experiential


Any way you say “we are looking for a peaceful environment but the Christians seem to dislike that.”

You mean a peaceful environment on your terms, and that Christians agree with you on your terms, and that Christians deny the Torahs prophesy’s that Jesus died and rose again for the salvation of humanity and then recite the shada. I don’t think so!



I think Friendship truly does seek a way to peace.  What he(and they, the followers of Islam) does not understand is that there can be no peace as long as Islam insists on domination.  People must be allowed their free will, just as God gave it to them.  Would they be willing to accept domination?  This is why there is not peace.  No one must seek to dominate but allow all to exist as equals regardless of their beliefs, and regardless of if they are going to hell.  That is between them and God on judgement day, but while on this earth we must treat all others alike, or there can be no peace.
]]> Mon, 08 Oct 2012 13:06:56 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=168777#168777 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Originally posted by Abu Loren Originally... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=168776#168776 Author: Experiential
Subject: 23672
Posted: 08 October 2012 at 12:51pm

Originally posted by Abu Loren

Originally posted by Caringheart


Originally posted by Abu Loren

Abu Loren,Can you tell me exactly what it is you disagree with in the teaching of Paul?  Thanks,Caringheart


Every single word he wrote down because they are not the teachings of Jesus (pbuh) but his own words, he did not see a 'vision' of the risen Jesus (pbuh) because Jesus (pbuh) was NEVER crucified. Paul is a liar and a fraud. He helped billions of people to go to hell throughout history by twisting the mission of Jesus (pbuh) and changing and destroying the Mosaic Law. He will rot in hell forever.

The crucifixion is a historical fact witnessed by eyewitness’s and also written by non Christians (eg. Josephus) at the time. Unlike your Muslim version which comes from Mohammad 600 years later. Its obvious that the accounts at the time hold more authority than one 600 years later.

If you are so worried about Paul and a Roman pagan plot I suggest you worry more about al-Ḥajar al-Aswad the Arab pagan Rock you bow to.

]]> Mon, 08 Oct 2012 12:51:49 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=168776#168776 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Originally posted by FriendshipAssalamu... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=168774#168774 Author: Experiential
Subject: 23672
Posted: 08 October 2012 at 12:34pm

Originally posted by Friendship

Assalamu alaika Caringheart.

It is the duty of you in Europe to do  so. I have met them so many times and they love Muslims who are intelligent and non violent. They are however marginalized.
You said: I believe you put the cart before the horse...
this was a teaching of Jesus.  Who came first Jesus, or the poet?
Response. Note that as I have been trying to emphasize true Islam does not exclude a single letter from what Allah revealed to Jesus. I think in another thread I explained that. Are you saying that the way Abraham circumcised himself, Ishmael first was different from the way he circumcised Isaac and Jacob, Essau later? Was the first son at the age of 96 different from the second son at the age of 100. Let us  stop joking please. We are adults and not children!
Caringheart! Note that it is not the Qur'an that is the source of peace. You speak English fluently, but you must go to a doctor to prescribe for you. You must go to a surgeon to operate on you. There are many branches of surgery. IT IS CERTAINLY THE SUNNA THAT IS THE LIFE HISTORY OF MUHAMMAD THE ARBITRATOR OF PEACE. YOU ARE DECEIVED BY THE WAHABIS AND SALAFIS TO READ THE QUR'AN. YOU WILL ONLY UNDERSTAND IT IN THE UNIVERSITY. FOR EXAMPLE DO YOU UNDERSTAND EMBROYOLOGY OUTSIDE A UNIVERSITY. HOW DO YOU KNOW THE STRUCTURE OF UTERUS AND ITS HISTOLOGY BLOOD AND NERVOUS SUPPLY OTHER THAN IN THE UNIVERSITY! DID MUHAMMAD TELL YOU THE NUMBER OF SPERM CELLS, THEIR MORPHOLOGY, VISCOSITY ETC? ALLAH MENTIONED INFERTILITY, DID HE OR MUHAMMAD TELL YOU THE CAUSES? BRING A MUSLIM DOCTOR, A JEW AN ATHEIST HUMANIST TOGETHER. WILL THEY DIFFER IN THE CAUSES OF INFERTILITY?
Your rejecting the Sunna of Muhammad is the cause of terrorism.
THE WEST IS THE AXIS OF EVIL AND SOURCE OF TERRORISM AND NOT TRUE FOLLOWERS OF MUHAMMAD WHO UNDERSTOOD HIS LIFE HISTORY.

FRIENDSHIP.

The West is the axis of evil and source of terrorism! Friendship you are talking like Al Qaeda or Taliban.  I am not out to defend the West. There is much un -Godliness in the West. But at the same time there is a strong blessing of God on the West. A blessing the Muslim world does not have.

Muslims are climbing over themselves to immigrate to the West. Why is that ? Because of the freedoms, prosperity and stability in the West that the Muslim world does not have.

I think Muslims are jealous, resentful and frustrated that the West holds the power of civilization and the Muslim world does not.  Its time Muslims snapped out of their victim mentality and took some responsibility for their own failings. You had a shot at it in the past with your Caliphates and the Muslim Ottoman Empire and the result was corruption and atrocities committed against non Muslim people. You are looking for excuses.

You say that “as I have been trying to emphasize true Islam does not exclude a single letter from what Allah revealed to Jesus.”

Well Oh yes it does! It denies the most important thing in the whole Christian message. That as the prophets of the Torah predicted – Jesus the Messiah died and rose again for the salvation of humanity !

]]> Mon, 08 Oct 2012 12:34:04 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=168774#168774 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Originally posted by FriendshipAssalamu... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=168772#168772 Author: Experiential
Subject: 23672
Posted: 08 October 2012 at 12:11pm

Originally posted by Friendship

Assalamu alaikum.
 
What bothers me with the Christians is they are not ready to reason by examining their scriptures and what was written on it by their authorities. There is no authority believing in what they are trying to cover. We are looking for a peaceful environment but the Christians seems to dislike that. Pointing out such discrepancies and uncertainties regarding Christianity  does not mean a denigration of anything. I believe in Jesus son of Maryam as a Messenger and Prophet and as such I must protect him from saying something that disagrees with what was revealed before him on the platform of one God. I have had a lot of discussions with the Jews and it seems they are more ready to accept Muhammad provided the followers of Muhammad behaved better.
My advise to the organizers of this forum is to have a separate forum between the Muslims and Jews. We cannot go further by the time those who do not believe in Allah, disbelieved in the Torah and refuse to reason join the forum. How can a person without a foot walk and a hand grasp something?
An Arab poet said:
 
إن البناء اذا بنى على غير اس لم يكد يأ تدل 
Meaning: any structure not built or standing on a sound/ strong foundation is bound to collapse.
There are also parables in the NT confirming this poetary.
Let the Christians realize that we are not supporting any name tied to the Sunna of Muhammad except the pure and exemplary teaching of Muhammad. Muhammad did not teach for example Wahabism or any ism nor called one ahl-al-sunna wal jama'at or gave his grandchildren positions above other human beings. There is not concept of foreigners or gentiles in his Sunna. We are aware of the position given to Banu Hashim that they do not accept Sadaqat and that he appeals to us to be kind to them.  
If we want peace, then those who want to establish it from the followers of Muhammad must be supported by all. We are not looking for worldly positions or any fame. We can hand over the keys to all the oil wells in the world to those who helped in establishing the Caliphate.  
The time for joking, jesting and hair-splitting argument is over. It is time we face the ways and means we can fight recession, unemployment al-qaeeda and Taliban.
 
Friendship.
 

Friendship what bothers me is that Muslims pick and choose New Testament scriptures that suit them, and their arrogance that they think they know the Christian scriptures better than Christians.

What do you mean you are looking for a “peaceful environment”. There is peace between Christians and Muslims and always will be. But if you think they will agree then they won’t. But that does not mean there cannot be discussion and tolerance.

Any way you say “we are looking for a peaceful environment but the Christians seem to dislike that.”

You mean a peaceful environment on your terms, and that Christians agree with you on your terms, and that Christians deny the Torahs prophesy’s that Jesus died and rose again for the salvation of humanity and then recite the shada. I don’t think so!

]]> Mon, 08 Oct 2012 12:11:57 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=168772#168772 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Originally posted by Abu Loren Originally... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=168770#168770 Author: Experiential
Subject: 23672
Posted: 08 October 2012 at 11:52am

Originally posted by Abu Loren

Originally posted by Caringheart


"Christians you are not Israelites"... in quotes... the title of your threadThe reason for my questions is that I am simply trying to figure out the point of your thread.


If I may be permitted to answer. You and many Christians are really confused to say the least. You seem to believe that you have something in common with Jews and Judaism.

Let me explain once more for you....Paul took away the 'Jewishness' when he defeated the true disciples of Jesus (pbuh). He suppressed the teachings of Peter and became an adversary, then using his authority as a Pharisees and a Roman citizen he went on an all out assault on the true followers of Jesus (pbuh) and his disciples. Then Paul claimed to have a 'vision' of the risen Jesus (pbuh) when he wasn't even crucified. Crucifxion then became Crucifiction and a completely new religion was born with Roman paganism thrown in to the mix. This new religion spread throughout the Empire and everybody was happy.

Therefore, Christians are NOT ISRAELITES!

My Reply

Let me explain it once again to you...Paul took away no Jewishness. Jesus the Messiah was a Jew. Paul was a Jew. Mohamed was not.

Jesus’s friends – Peter, James, Judas etc were Jews and they all supported Paul. For example –read  Acts 15.22 and 2 Peter 3.15.

The Injil was written by many authors, mainly Jews, Paul was only one of these authors and his writings do not differ from the others and that Jesus died and rose again for the salvation of humanity.

Paul and the other injil authors lived at the time of Jesus. Mohammad did not. Mohammad lived 600 years after Jesus, Paul and the others.

The Torah and Old Testament contain the prophesies of Jesus the Messiah. Not of Mohammad.

This is the Jewish tradition to Christianity that Islam just does not have.

Paul was not an agent of the Roman Empire. He was imprisoned and executed by the Roman Empire.

Your conspiracy theory doesn’t hold. You thought the Injil was changed at the Council of Nicea which has been proven wrong!



Edited by Experiential - 08 October 2012 at 11:53am]]> Mon, 08 Oct 2012 11:52:52 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=168770#168770 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Originally posted by Abu... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=168769#168769 Author: Caringheart
Subject: 23672
Posted: 08 October 2012 at 11:22am

Originally posted by Abu Loren

Originally posted by Caringheart

Originally posted by Caringheart

Abu Loren,Can you tell me exactly what it is you disagree with in the teaching of Paul?  Thanks,Caringheart

Originally posted by Abu Loren

Originally posted by Caringheart


I think it is obvious that you have not read Paul.  I think it would be good if you would.  You would find much of what he was teaching is in alignment with Islamic teaching.  Please if you would tell me what exactly you are disagreeing with in his teaching.  I would like to know and understand.  Thanks.
 
Peace,
Caringheart



You still have not told me what exactly in his teaching you disagree with. 
Question
 
I've already told you. ALL OF IT!


That is not an answer.  I asked you for specifics.  Specifically what is it that Paul teaches that disagrees with what Islam teaches?


Edited by Caringheart - 08 October 2012 at 11:23am]]> Mon, 08 Oct 2012 11:22:19 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=168769#168769 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Originally posted by Caringheart Originally... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=168765#168765 Author: Abu Loren
Subject: 23672
Posted: 08 October 2012 at 8:04am

Originally posted by Caringheart

Originally posted by Caringheart

Abu Loren,Can you tell me exactly what it is you disagree with in the teaching of Paul?  Thanks,Caringheart

Originally posted by Abu Loren

Originally posted by Caringheart


I think it is obvious that you have not read Paul.  I think it would be good if you would.  You would find much of what he was teaching is in alignment with Islamic teaching.  Please if you would tell me what exactly you are disagreeing with in his teaching.  I would like to know and understand.  Thanks.
 
Peace,
Caringheart



You still have not told me what exactly in his teaching you disagree with. 
Question
 
I've already told you. ALL OF IT!
]]> Mon, 08 Oct 2012 08:04:59 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=168765#168765 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Originally posted by Caringheart Abu... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=168742#168742 Author: Caringheart
Subject: 23672
Posted: 07 October 2012 at 2:02pm

Originally posted by Caringheart

Abu Loren,Can you tell me exactly what it is you disagree with in the teaching of Paul?  Thanks,Caringheart


Originally posted by Abu Loren

Originally posted by Caringheart


I think it is obvious that you have not read Paul.  I think it would be good if you would.  You would find much of what he was teaching is in alignment with Islamic teaching.  Please if you would tell me what exactly you are disagreeing with in his teaching.  I would like to know and understand.  Thanks.
 
Peace,
Caringheart



You still have not told me what exactly in his teaching you disagree with. 
Question


Edited by Caringheart - 07 October 2012 at 2:04pm]]> Sun, 07 Oct 2012 14:02:07 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=168742#168742 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Originally posted by Caringheart I think... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=168730#168730 Author: Abu Loren
Subject: 23672
Posted: 07 October 2012 at 5:34am

Originally posted by Caringheart



I think it is obvious that you have not read Paul.  I think it would be good if you would.  You would find much of what he was teaching is in alignment with Islamic teaching.  Please if you would tell me what exactly you are disagreeing with in his teaching.  I would like to know and understand.  Thanks.
 
Peace,
Caringheart



Of course I have read Paul's version of things. I completely deny all of it as fake because his premise lies in his claim that he had a vision of Jesus (pbuh) on the road to Damascus when Jesus (pbuh) wasn't even dead.

He is a clever manipulator and he knew the Torah inside out as he was a Pharisee and he manipulated the OT to suit his needs.

Jews in his day despised the Romans who were the occupying force in Israel. Although Paul was a Jew he was born in Tarsus which was in Asia Minor. No self respecting Jew in his day took up Roman citizenship. This in itself tells me that he was a dubious character.

I still maintain that Paul was a liar and a fraud. Because of his false teachings he has lead billions of people throughout history to hell fire. ]]> Sun, 07 Oct 2012 05:34:26 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=168730#168730 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Assalamu alaika Caringheart.I... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=168680#168680 Author: Friendship
Subject: 23672
Posted: 05 October 2012 at 10:40pm

Assalamu alaika Caringheart.


I met them more in London and in conferences. You can view: sbpra.com/allamadrsanisalihmustapha.

Friendship
]]> Fri, 05 Oct 2012 22:40:12 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=168680#168680 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Assalamu asslaamu Caringheart.I... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=168679#168679 Author: Friendship
Subject: 23672
Posted: 05 October 2012 at 10:36pm

Assalamu asslaamu Caringheart.

 I am not annoyed. You are more closer to understanding the sunna and hence to practice it one day. I will never like to loose you. You are interested in dealing with injustice.

It is becoming clear why we do not understand understand each other. A true Muslim has nothing to do with the holy Qur'an for it is a lethal object in one sense. I DISCUSS ON WHAT MUHAMMAD DID PRACTICALLY AND NOT THEORETICALLY. THE QUR'AN TELLS IN THE MINUTEST DETAILS THE BEHAVIOR ACTIONS OF MUHAMMAD IN ALL THAT IS FOR PEACE STABILITY AND ANY FORM OF GOOD. IT IS MORE FOR RESEARCH AND DEVELOPMENT. If you want to understand the Qur'an you can view: http://108.167.148.69/OB_WD/384598/excerpt.htm.

Let us respect the process of legal acquisitions. If Muhammad allowed writing down the Revelation at the same time with what one understands there could have been an amalgamation leading to doubts and confusion. It has to maintain its status: Pure and an unadulterated Qur'an from the Lord of the world! If there is difference between written and oral law, what do you expect Muhammad to come with? The like of the Bible?
Yes kindly give me that video. If your analysis is good be assured that it is what Muhammad recommends but only that you do not it.
I keep on insisting that sticking to the way of Muhammad's life by the West does not mean that they are Muslims. That is our common good! We have to built an International Community on the Sunna and not against it. WE have to means of equal distribution of wealth! It is not the Qur'an that describes that,but the Sunna of Muhammad.

Friendship.


]]> Fri, 05 Oct 2012 22:36:35 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=168679#168679 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Originally posted by FriendshipAssalamu... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=168669#168669 Author: Caringheart
Subject: 23672
Posted: 05 October 2012 at 7:25pm

Originally posted by Friendship

Assalamu alaika Caringheart.

It is the duty of you in Europe to do  so. I have met them so many times and they love Muslims who are intelligent and non violent.


I would not find that surprising.
You did not say where you go to engage in conversation with the people of Judaism?
I would like to do the same.
Thanks,
CH


Edited by Caringheart - 05 October 2012 at 7:26pm]]> Fri, 05 Oct 2012 19:25:27 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=168669#168669 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Originally posted by FriendshipAssalamu... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=168647#168647 Author: Caringheart
Subject: 23672
Posted: 05 October 2012 at 11:30am

Originally posted by Friendship

Assalamu alaika Caringheart.

It is the duty of you in Europe to do  so. I have met them so many times and they love Muslims who are intelligent and non violent. They are however marginalized.
You said: I believe you put the cart before the horse...
this was a teaching of Jesus.  Who came first Jesus, or the poet?
Response. Note that as I have been trying to emphasize true Islam does not exclude a single letter from what Allah revealed to Jesus. I think in another thread I explained that. Are you saying that the way Abraham circumcised himself, Ishmael first was different from the way he circumcised Isaac and Jacob, Essau later? Was the first son at the age of 96 different from the second son at the age of 100. Let us  stop joking please. We are adults and not children!
Caringheart! Note that it is not the Qur'an that is the source of peace. You speak English fluently, but you must go to a doctor to prescribe for you. You must go to a surgeon to operate on you. There are many branches of surgery. IT IS CERTAINLY THE SUNNA THAT IS THE LIFE HISTORY OF MUHAMMAD THE ARBITRATOR OF PEACE. YOU ARE DECEIVED BY THE WAHABIS AND SALAFIS TO READ THE QUR'AN. YOU WILL ONLY UNDERSTAND IT IN THE UNIVERSITY. FOR EXAMPLE DO YOU UNDERSTAND EMBROYOLOGY OUTSIDE A UNIVERSITY. HOW DO YOU KNOW THE STRUCTURE OF UTERUS AND ITS HISTOLOGY BLOOD AND NERVOUS SUPPLY OTHER THAN IN THE UNIVERSITY! DID MUHAMMAD TELL YOU THE NUMBER OF SPERM CELLS, THEIR MORPHOLOGY, VISCOSITY ETC? ALLAH MENTIONED INFERTILITY, DID HE OR MUHAMMAD TELL YOU THE CAUSES? BRING A MUSLIM DOCTOR, A JEW AN ATHEIST HUMANIST TOGETHER. WILL THEY DIFFER IN THE CAUSES OF INFERTILITY?
Your rejecting the Sunna of Muhammad is the cause of terrorism.
THE WEST IS THE AXIS OF EVIL AND SOURCE OF TERRORISM AND NOT TRUE FOLLOWERS OF MUHAMMAD WHO UNDERSTOOD HIS LIFE HISTORY.

FRIENDSHIP.

 
I'm sorry Friendship, I think you got angry at me...
I was only saying that the poet was writing from a teaching earlier brought by Jesus.  I meant nothing more.  Smile
 
As far as the sunna of Muhammad, you are correct, I do not know the sunna, but it was also my understanding that Muhammad said that the sunna was not to be written down, that the 'word of Allah' was all that was necessary.  I think this is where much of the confusion in Islam comes in, because if one goes entirely by the Qur'an it is not in sync with perhaps how Muhammad actually conducted matters in his lifetime... how things were under his leadership.  I do not know because the history is convoluted.  There is no consistent record.  Muhammad was a leader who adjusted to circumstances as any good leader must.  So looking at his words and looking at his leadership you come to different conclusions.  So which do you follow?  This is the source of all confusion.  I think people can not deny the improvements Muhammad brought to the arab world under his leadership, but when the arab world lost his leadership the idea of Islam began to pull apart.  Those who had joined Muhammad joined for their own reasons and when he had gone they pursued their own purposes.
 
I posted a thread called 'looking for viewpoints'.  Do you think you might watch the video I mentioned?  It adresses the source of terrorism from the mid-eastern viewpoint.
 
Salaam,
Caringheart
]]> Fri, 05 Oct 2012 11:30:16 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=168647#168647 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Originally posted by Abu... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=168641#168641 Author: Caringheart
Subject: 23672
Posted: 05 October 2012 at 10:24am

Originally posted by Abu Loren

Originally posted by Caringheart


Originally posted by Abu Loren

Abu Loren,Can you tell me exactly what it is you disagree with in the teaching of Paul?  Thanks,Caringheart


Every single word he wrote down because they are not the teachings of Jesus (pbuh) but his own words, he did not see a 'vision' of the risen Jesus (pbuh) because Jesus (pbuh) was NEVER crucified. Paul is a liar and a fraud. He helped billions of people to go to hell throughout history by twisting the mission of Jesus (pbuh) and changing and destroying the Mosaic Law. He will rot in hell forever.
 
Greetings Abu Loren,
 
I think it is obvious that you have not read Paul.  I think it would be good if you would.  You would find much of what he was teaching is in alignment with Islamic teaching.  Please if you would tell me what exactly you are disagreeing with in his teaching.  I would like to know and understand.  Thanks.
 
Peace,
Caringheart


Edited by Caringheart - 05 October 2012 at 10:26am]]> Fri, 05 Oct 2012 10:24:19 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=168641#168641 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Originally posted by Caringheart Originally... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=168639#168639 Author: Abu Loren
Subject: 23672
Posted: 05 October 2012 at 8:24am

Originally posted by Caringheart


Originally posted by Abu Loren

Abu Loren,Can you tell me exactly what it is you disagree with in the teaching of Paul?  Thanks,Caringheart


Every single word he wrote down because they are not the teachings of Jesus (pbuh) but his own words, he did not see a 'vision' of the risen Jesus (pbuh) because Jesus (pbuh) was NEVER crucified. Paul is a liar and a fraud. He helped billions of people to go to hell throughout history by twisting the mission of Jesus (pbuh) and changing and destroying the Mosaic Law. He will rot in hell forever.]]> Fri, 05 Oct 2012 08:24:42 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=168639#168639 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Experiential, you are simply making... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=168632#168632 Author: Mahdi The Seeke
Subject: 23672
Posted: 05 October 2012 at 12:36am

Experiential, you are simply making excuses for Peter. There is nothing for Peter to fear if Jesus told him to go to all nations. So he is more afraid of criticism from his fellow disciples than his master. That rsises another question. Why would his fellow disciples(i.e James) object to him associating with gentiles if he was following Jesus instructions to teach all creation? Even when visiting Cornelius, Peter did not say that 'Jesus told us to teach all nations' but refees to a vision. Jesus never told his disciples to go first to jews then gentiles. Quote the appropriate scripture if i am wrong. What i am trying to establish is that based on the behaviour of the disciples in the verses i quoted, Jesus never instructed them to teach 'all creation' as in Matthew 28:18. The evidence is consistent with statements in Matthew 10:5-6 and Matthew 15:24.
]]> Fri, 05 Oct 2012 00:36:01 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=168632#168632 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Look at the ridiculous beginning... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=168630#168630 Author: Mahdi The Seeke
Subject: 23672
Posted: 04 October 2012 at 11:20pm

Look at the
ridiculous beginning to this
thread as an example of a
Muslim being self-centered, biased with an agenda of
assumption of superiority and
not knowledgeable in
Hebrew / Greek language and
the history of Israel and
Christianity.

Experiential, thank you very much for this description. You know me oh so well.]]> Thu, 04 Oct 2012 23:20:58 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=168630#168630 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Mahdi Said Let us look at some... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=168629#168629 Author: Mahdi The Seeke
Subject: 23672
Posted: 04 October 2012 at 11:11pm

Mahdi Said Let us look at some more
information. Matthew 10:23
When they persecute you in
one town, flee to the next, for
truly, I say to you, you will not
have gone through all the towns of Israel before the Son
of Man comes.
Maybe all nations = Israel My Reply Mahdi. Its true - they actually
did not go through all the
towns of Israel before the Son
of Man came, because the Son
of Man did come - after his
resurrection.


Very good answer Experiential.

Matthew 10 New International Version
(NIV) Jesus Sends Out the Twelve Jesus called his twelve disciples to him and gave
them authority to drive out
impure spirits and to heal
every disease and sickness. 2 These are the names of the twelve apostles: first, Simon
(who is called Peter) and his
brother Andrew; James son of
Zebedee, and his brother John; 3 Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax
collector; James son of
Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus; 4 Simon the Zealot and Judas Iscariot, who betrayed him. 5 These twelve Jesus sent out with the following
instructions: “Do not go
among the Gentiles or enter
any town of the Samaritans. 6 Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel. 7 As you go, proclaim this message: ‘The kingdom of
heaven has come near.’ 8 Heal the sick, raise the dead,
cleanse those who have
leprosy,[a] drive out demons. Freely you have received;
freely give. 9 “Do not get any gold or silver or copper to take with you in
your belts— 10 no bag for the journey or extra shirt or
sandals or a staff, for the
worker is worth his keep. 11 Whatever town or village you enter, search there for
some worthy person and stay
at their house until you leave. 12 As you enter the home, give it your greeting. 13 If the home is deserving, let your
peace rest on it; if it is not, let
your peace return to you. 14 If anyone will not welcome you
or listen to your words, leave
that home or town and shake
the dust off your feet. 15 Truly I tell you, it will be more
bearable for Sodom and
Gomorrah on the day of
judgment than for that town. 16 “I am sending you out like sheep among wolves.
Therefore be as shrewd as
snakes and as innocent as
doves. 17 Be on your guard; you will be handed over to the
local councils and be flogged
in the synagogues. 18 On my account you will be brought
before governors and kings as
witnesses to them and to the
Gentiles. 19 But when they arrest you, do not worry about
what to say or how to say it.
At that time you will be given
what to say, 20 for it will not be you speaking, but the Spirit
of your Father speaking
through you. 21 “Brother will betray brother to death, and a father
his child; children will rebel
against their parents and have
them put to death. 22 You will be hated by everyone because
of me, but the one who stands
firm to the end will be saved. 23 When you are persecuted in one place, flee to another.
Truly I tell you, you will not
finish going through the
towns of Israel before the Son
of Man comes.

By claiming the last statement of the scripture is talking about Jesus ressurection, you are making him a liar and false prophet. Unless you can prove all the things he predicted in the quoted scripture happened before his ressurection. Who is taking verses out of context now?]]> Thu, 04 Oct 2012 23:11:28 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=168629#168629 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Assalamu alaika Caringheart.It... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=168619#168619 Author: Friendship
Subject: 23672
Posted: 04 October 2012 at 10:07pm

Assalamu alaika Caringheart.

It is the duty of you in Europe to do  so. I have met them so many times and they love Muslims who are intelligent and non violent. They are however marginalized.
You said: I believe you put the cart before the horse...
this was a teaching of Jesus.  Who came first Jesus, or the poet?
Response. Note that as I have been trying to emphasize true Islam does not exclude a single letter from what Allah revealed to Jesus. I think in another thread I explained that. Are you saying that the way Abraham circumcised himself, Ishmael first was different from the way he circumcised Isaac and Jacob, Essau later? Was the first son at the age of 96 different from the second son at the age of 100. Let us  stop joking please. We are adults and not children!
Caringheart! Note that it is not the Qur'an that is the source of peace. You speak English fluently, but you must go to a doctor to prescribe for you. You must go to a surgeon to operate on you. There are many branches of surgery. IT IS CERTAINLY THE SUNNA THAT IS THE LIFE HISTORY OF MUHAMMAD THE ARBITRATOR OF PEACE. YOU ARE DECEIVED BY THE WAHABIS AND SALAFIS TO READ THE QUR'AN. YOU WILL ONLY UNDERSTAND IT IN THE UNIVERSITY. FOR EXAMPLE DO YOU UNDERSTAND EMBROYOLOGY OUTSIDE A UNIVERSITY. HOW DO YOU KNOW THE STRUCTURE OF UTERUS AND ITS HISTOLOGY BLOOD AND NERVOUS SUPPLY OTHER THAN IN THE UNIVERSITY! DID MUHAMMAD TELL YOU THE NUMBER OF SPERM CELLS, THEIR MORPHOLOGY, VISCOSITY ETC? ALLAH MENTIONED INFERTILITY, DID HE OR MUHAMMAD TELL YOU THE CAUSES? BRING A MUSLIM DOCTOR, A JEW AN ATHEIST HUMANIST TOGETHER. WILL THEY DIFFER IN THE CAUSES OF INFERTILITY?
Your rejecting the Sunna of Muhammad is the cause of terrorism.
THE WEST IS THE AXIS OF EVIL AND SOURCE OF TERRORISM AND NOT TRUE FOLLOWERS OF MUHAMMAD WHO UNDERSTOOD HIS LIFE HISTORY.

FRIENDSHIP.

]]> Thu, 04 Oct 2012 22:07:04 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=168619#168619 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Originally posted by FriendshipAssalamu... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=168599#168599 Author: Caringheart
Subject: 23672
Posted: 04 October 2012 at 12:14pm

Originally posted by Friendship

Assalamu alaikum.
 
I have had a lot of discussions with the Jews and it seems they are more ready to accept Muhammad provided the followers of Muhammad behaved better.
My advise to the organizers of this forum is to have a separate forum between the Muslims and Jews.

An Arab poet said:
 
إن البناء اذا بنى على غير اس لم يكد يأ تدل 
Meaning: any structure not built or standing on a sound/ strong foundation is bound to collapse.

 There is not concept of foreigners or gentiles in his Sunna. We are aware of the position given to Banu Hashim that they do not accept Sadaqat and that he appeals to us to be kind to them. 
 
Friendship.
 


Greetings Friendship,

Is it possible to engage the people of Judaism in discussion?  Where do you go to engage them?  I too, have tried to find them to seek their views.


Regarding;
إن البناء اذا بنى على غير اس لم يكد يأ تدل 
Meaning: any structure not built or standing on a sound/ strong foundation is bound to collapse.
I believe you put the cart before the horse...
this was a teaching of Jesus.  Who came first Jesus, or the poet?
"There is not concept of foreigners or gentiles in his Sunna. We areaware of the position given to Banu Hashim that they do not acceptSadaqat and that he appeals to us to be kind to them. "
I respectfully have to disagree with that statement, but I appreciate the efforts you are trying to make in the cause of peace between people.

Salaam, Caringheart
]]> Thu, 04 Oct 2012 12:14:32 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=168599#168599 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Originally posted by Abu LorenAbu... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=168598#168598 Author: Caringheart
Subject: 23672
Posted: 04 October 2012 at 11:59am

Originally posted by Abu Loren



Abu Loren,

Can you tell me exactly what it is you disagree with in the teaching of Paul? 

Thanks,
Caringheart
]]> Thu, 04 Oct 2012 11:59:36 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=168598#168598 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Assalamu alaikum. What bothers... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=168590#168590 Author: Friendship
Subject: 23672
Posted: 04 October 2012 at 5:38am

Assalamu alaikum.
 
What bothers me with the Christians is they are not ready to reason by examining their scriptures and what was written on it by their authorities. There is no authority believing in what they are trying to cover. We are looking for a peaceful environment but the Christians seems to dislike that. Pointing out such discrepancies and uncertainties regarding Christianity  does not mean a denigration of anything. I believe in Jesus son of Maryam as a Messenger and Prophet and as such I must protect him from saying something that disagrees with what was revealed before him on the platform of one God. I have had a lot of discussions with the Jews and it seems they are more ready to accept Muhammad provided the followers of Muhammad behaved better.
My advise to the organizers of this forum is to have a separate forum between the Muslims and Jews. We cannot go further by the time those who do not believe in Allah, disbelieved in the Torah and refuse to reason join the forum. How can a person without a foot walk and a hand grasp something?
An Arab poet said:
 
إن البناء اذا بنى على غير اس لم يكد يأ تدل 
Meaning: any structure not built or standing on a sound/ strong foundation is bound to collapse.
There are also parables in the NT confirming this poetary.
Let the Christians realize that we are not supporting any name tied to the Sunna of Muhammad except the pure and exemplary teaching of Muhammad. Muhammad did not teach for example Wahabism or any ism nor called one ahl-al-sunna wal jama'at or gave his grandchildren positions above other human beings. There is not concept of foreigners or gentiles in his Sunna. We are aware of the position given to Banu Hashim that they do not accept Sadaqat and that he appeals to us to be kind to them.  
If we want peace, then those who want to establish it from the followers of Muhammad must be supported by all. We are not looking for worldly positions or any fame. We can hand over the keys to all the oil wells in the world to those who helped in establishing the Caliphate.  
The time for joking, jesting and hair-splitting argument is over. It is time we face the ways and means we can fight recession, unemployment al-qaeeda and Taliban.
 
Friendship.
 
]]> Thu, 04 Oct 2012 05:38:33 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=168590#168590 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Originally posted by Caringheart &#034;Christians... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=168584#168584 Author: Abu Loren
Subject: 23672
Posted: 04 October 2012 at 3:20am

Originally posted by Caringheart


"Christians you are not Israelites"... in quotes... the title of your threadThe reason for my questions is that I am simply trying to figure out the point of your thread.


If I may be permitted to answer. You and many Christians are really confused to say the least. You seem to believe that you have something in common with Jews and Judaism.

Let me explain once more for you....Paul took away the 'Jewishness' when he defeated the true disciples of Jesus (pbuh). He suppressed the teachings of Peter and became an adversary, then using his authority as a Pharisees and a Roman citizen he went on an all out assault on the true followers of Jesus (pbuh) and his disciples. Then Paul claimed to have a 'vision' of the risen Jesus (pbuh) when he wasn't even crucified. Crucifxion then became Crucifiction and a completely new religion was born with Roman paganism thrown in to the mix. This new religion spread throughout the Empire and everybody was happy.

Therefore, Christians are NOT ISRAELITES!]]> Thu, 04 Oct 2012 03:20:45 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=168584#168584 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Originally posted by Mahdi The... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=168560#168560 Author: Experiential
Subject: 23672
Posted: 03 October 2012 at 2:58pm

Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke

What JESUS SAID PT 1
Matt 10:5-6)
Jesus sent out these 12 after giving them instructions: "Don't take the road leading to other nations, and don't enter any Samaritan town. Instead, go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

(Matthew 15:24) He (Jesus) replied, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

WHAT JESUS SAID PT2
Matthew28:18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

Are the above complimentary or contradictory? Let us look at some more information.

Matthew 10:23

English Standard Version (ESV)

23 When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next, for truly, I say to you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

Maybe all nations = Israel



Galatians 2:11-13 New Living Translation (NLT) Paul Confronts Peter 11 But when Peter came to Antioch, I had to oppose him
to his face, for what he did
was very wrong. 12 When he first arrived, he ate with the
Gentile Christians, who were
not circumcised. But
afterward, when some friends
of James came, Peter wouldn’t
eat with the Gentiles anymore. He was afraid of criticism from
these people who insisted on
the necessity of circumcision. 13 As a result, other Jewish Christians followed Peter’s
hypocrisy, and even Barnabas
was led astray by their
hypocrisy.

Having been instructed by Jesus to preach to 'all creation' Peter is afraid to be seen with gentiles? The evidence shows he never heard this instruction

ACTS 10: 27 While talking with him, Peter went inside and found a
large gathering of people. 28 He said to them: “You are well aware that it is against
our law for a Jew to associate
with or visit a Gentile. But God
has shown me that I should
not call anyone impure or
unclean. 29 So when I was sent for, I came without
raising any objection. May I
ask why you sent for me?

Even after Jesus tells him to preach to 'all creation' Peter is afraid of breaking Jewish laws. He does not say 'Jesus instructed us to preach to all nations' so once again evidence shows he never heard this instruction


Galatians 2:7-9

New International Version (NIV)

7 On the contrary, they recognized that I had been entrusted with the task of preaching the gospel to the uncircumcised,[a> just as Peter had been to the circumcised. 8 For God, who was at work in Peter as an apostle to the circumcised, was also at work in me as an apostle to the Gentiles. 9 James, Cephas[c> and John, those esteemed as pillars, gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship when they recognized the grace given to me. They agreed that we should go to the Gentiles, and they to the circumcised.

In spite of Jesus instructions, the disciples only go to the circumcised and entrust Paul to Gentiles. So much for all creation.

So people, based on the evidence, give a verdict. Did Jesus instruct his disciples to 'all creation'?
 
Mahdi Said

What JESUS SAID PT 1

Matt 10:5-6)

Jesus sent out these 12 after giving them instructions: "Don't take the road leading to other nations, and don't enter any Samaritan town. Instead, go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

(Matthew 15:24) He (Jesus) replied, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

WHAT JESUS SAID PT2

Matthew28:18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.  Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

 

Are the above complimentary or contradictory?

My Reply

Complimentary.

 

Mahdi Said

Let us look at some more information. Matthew 10:23

When they persecute you in one town, flee to the next, for truly, I say to you, you will not have gone through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes.

Maybe all nations = Israel

My Reply

Mahdi. Its true -  they actually did not go through all the towns of Israel before the Son of Man came, because the Son of Man did come -  after his resurrection.

 

Mahdi Said

Galatians 2:11-13. Paul Confronts Peter but when Peter came to Antioch, I had to oppose him to his face, for what he did was very wrong. When he first arrived, he ate with the Gentile Christians, who were not circumcised. But afterward, when some friends of James came, Peter wouldn’t eat with the Gentiles anymore. He was afraid of criticism from these people who insisted on the necessity of circumcision.  As a result, other Jewish Christians followed Peter’s hypocrisy, and even Barnabas was led astray by their hypocrisy.

 

Having been instructed by Jesus to preach to 'all creation' Peter is afraid to be seen with gentiles? The evidence shows he never heard this instruction.

My Reply

No. It shows Peter was afraid himself of preaching to the gentiles because he was a Jew – not that he hadn’t heard it or that he didn’t support other people doing it.

 Read Gal 2:9 and you will see. “They (Peter) agreed that we (Paul) should go to the Gentiles, and they (Peter) to the Jews.”

Peter would not have agreed if he didn’t think the gentiles should be preached to. 

 

Mahdi Said

Galatians 2:7-9 On the contrary, they recognized that I had been entrusted with the task of preaching the gospel to the uncircumcised, just as Peter had been to the circumcised. For God, who was at work in Peter as an apostle to the circumcised, was also at work in me as an apostle to the Gentiles. James, Cephas and John, those esteemed as pillars, gave me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship when they recognized the grace given to me. They agreed that we should go to the Gentiles, and they to the circumcised.

 

In spite of Jesus instructions, the disciples only go to the circumcised and entrust Paul to Gentiles. So much for all creation.

My Reply

As a Jew Peter was afraid himself of preaching to the gentiles but he agreed that Paul should go to the Gentiles. Peter understood – first to the Jews and then to the non Jew.

Peter knew he himself had to finish the work to the Jews while at the same time he supported others such as Paul going to the gentiles.

There were others of Jesus twelve apostles who also went to the gentiles. For example Thomas went to the gentiles in India.

 

Mahdi Said

So people, based on the evidence, give a verdict. Did Jesus instruct his disciples to 'all creation'?

My Reply

yes 

 

Mahdi Said

ACTS 10: 27 While talking with him, Peter went inside and found a large gathering of people. He said to them: “You are well aware that it is against our law for a Jew to associate

with or visit a Gentile. But God has shown me that I should not call anyone impure or unclean. So when I was sent for, I came without raising any objection. May I ask why you sent for me?

 

Even after Jesus tells him to preach to 'all creation' Peter is afraid of breaking Jewish laws. He does not say 'Jesus instructed us to preach to all nations' so once again evidence shows he never heard this instruction.

My Reply

Actually you are wrong. Peter said in Acts 10:34 -36 "I now realize how true it is that God does not show favoritism but accepts men from every nation who fear him and do what is right.  You know the message God sent to the people of Israel, telling the good news of peace through Jesus Christ, who is Lord of all.”

Also Peter in Acts 10 did go to the house of Cornelius the Roman gentile. He wouldn’t have done that if he believed Jesus message was only to the Jews What it shows is that Peter as a strong Jew was afraid or hesitant and he believed first to the Jew and then later to the gentile. It was the timing he was not sure about, and whether it should be him that should do it or some one else .

 

In conclusion Peter understood, first to the Jews and then to the non Jew. Peter knew he had to finish the work to the Jews while at the same time he supported others such as Paul going to the gentiles.

You are simply picking and choosing your verses to support your own beliefs. Read the verses in context.

 

 

 

 

]]> Wed, 03 Oct 2012 14:58:42 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=168560#168560 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Originally posted by Mahdi... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=168486#168486 Author: Caringheart
Subject: 23672
Posted: 01 October 2012 at 9:55pm

Originally posted by Mahdi The Seeke


So what then do you say about the gentiles?
What do you think is meant to happen to the gentiles?
How is it that they have come to God?  and are you saying it doesn't count?           Thanks,Caringheart
What is the point of your thread?
Who do you think the Christians are?
They are the gentiles.
The gentiles are the "Christians you are not Israelites".
Andtruly some Christians are Israelites.  Jesus taught to the Jews.  Therewere Jews who believed in Him.  The original Apostles were Jewish...i.e., Israelites. 
Unless you have a different definition for Israelite?           salaam,Caringheart

1.Gentiles are christians who are not israelites?really?
2.The point of my thread is to prove that Jesus was sent only to Israelites.
3.Tell me what your rationale is for asking your questions.


"Christians you are not Israelites"... in quotes... the title of your thread

The reason for my questions is that I am simply trying to figure out the point of your thread.
]]> Mon, 01 Oct 2012 21:55:46 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=168486#168486 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Originally posted by Caringheart Greetings... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=168460#168460 Author: Mahdi The Seeke
Subject: 23672
Posted: 01 October 2012 at 2:16am

Originally posted by Caringheart


Greetings Mahdi,It seems you missed my reply since you did not answer my questions but included me with the above, but I have quoted no verses.  Thanks.
So what then do you say about the gentiles?
What do you think is meant to happen to the gentiles?
How is it that they have come to God?  and are you saying it doesn't count?Thanks,Caringheart

I have no opinion on 'Gentiles'. Your logic seems to be that
Christianity has to be right otherwise 'Gentiles' have no hope. So you
will rationalize everything no matter how absurd, farfetched or
outlandish the explanation may be in order to retain a feeling of
security. Even if you find any aspect of christianity problematic and
unresolvable, you will think 'there has to be an explanation otherwise
my salvation is lost. i wont go to heaven .it just has to be right' and
then ignore the issue. If you want to discuss 'Gentiles' you can start
a different topic so we do not stray from the topic at hand.Mahdi
Greetings Mahdi,This is not my rationale... it does seem to be your rationale.These sound like arguments you may have heard against Islam, that you try to turn around on others.What is the point of your thread?Who do you think the Christians are?They are the gentiles.The gentiles are the "Christians you are not Israelites".And
truly some Christians are Israelites.  Jesus taught to the Jews.  There
were Jews who believed in Him.  The original Apostles were Jewish...
i.e., Israelites.  Unless you have a different definition for Israelite?salaam,Caringheart


1.Gentiles are christians who are not israelites?really?
2.The point of my thread is to prove that Jesus was sent only to Israelites.
3.Tell me what your rationale is for asking your questions.]]> Mon, 01 Oct 2012 02:16:39 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=168460#168460 CHRISTIANS:YOU ARE NOT ISRAELITES : Originally posted by FriendshipAssalamu... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=23672&PID=168458#168458 Author: Experiential
Subject: 23672
Posted: 01 October 2012 at 1:30am

Originally posted by Friendship

Assalamu alaikum.
 
The language Jesus spread his Message is not spoken universally today. I do not find contradiction or controversy from the Jewish Rabbi. If there is contradiction and controversy in the Qur'an it is from those who are self-centered, biased with an agenda of assumption of superiority and not knowledgeable in Arabic language and the history of Islam.
What is the original hebrew/aramaic word meaning gentiles? What was the reason behind using the word? Was the word ever used by a prophet before Jesus son of Maryam?
 
Friendship.