IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Islam, is it a culture or a religion?

Islam, is it a culture or a religion? : Originally posted by honeto Originally...

Fri, 07 Dec 2012 04:44:23 +0000

Author: Abu Loren
Subject: 23474
Posted: 07 December 2012 at 4:44am

Originally posted by honeto

Originally posted by Matt Browne

Originally posted by honeto

Matt, you are right in Islam, the Quran does not teach honor killing. It must be a cultural thing, not just limited to the Arabs either.

I totally agree. A good example is Sicily in Italy. Plenty of honor killings there.

Originally posted by honeto

In religious teaching it is surprising that only the Judeo-Christian teaching command honor killings. In the Bible we read: Leviticus 20:10
And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.
Hasan

Yes, and this is why two things are so important1) We need to understand the historical context of when this was written2) We need to make sure that religions have the capability to evolveIn Qur'an 4:24 we read:"Also forbidden are women already married, except slave girls (those whom your right hands possess). Thus has Allah ordained for you. All others are lawful, provided you seek them from your property, desiring chastity, not fornication. So with those among them whom you have enjoyed, give them their required due, but if you agree mutually after the requirement has been determined, there is no sin on you."Like Christianity, the understanding of Islam has evolved and I can't think of an Islamic scholar who promotes slavery. In the 7th century slavery was part of the culture, but it is no longer in the 21st century. Slavery is wrong. For the same reason, the death penalty for adulterers is wrong. Leviticus 20:10 isn't applied anymore.Btw, I'm a secular German Protestant.

Matt,
religion is not a human that evolves LOL! so to speak.
What is declared lawful (halal)by God no one can change it to be unlawful (haram). Same way if something is declared unlawful (Haram) with time or area it can never become lawful (Halal), at least that is the case in Islam.
So I do not know how evolution plays that well as you try it to?
I you saying it was OK and lawful what the Catholic Church and Popes did inquisition period that lasted many centuries. Was that part of evolution of Catholicism?
Hasan

Indeed Matthias Breun would like to 'modernise' Islam like how they have 'modernised' Christianity. What they fail to understand is that what was revealed in the 7th century is relevant today. Similarly what was revealed to Prophet Musa (Alayhi Salaam) is relevant today. What Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala reveals to mankind is for all time not just for the century it was revealed in. His words will never change, only men try to change it.

Islam, is it a culture or a religion? : Originally posted by Matt Browne Originally...

Thu, 06 Dec 2012 13:35:34 +0000

Author: honeto
Subject: 23474
Posted: 06 December 2012 at 1:35pm

Originally posted by Matt Browne

Originally posted by honeto

Matt, you are right in Islam, the Quran does not teach honor killing. It must be a cultural thing, not just limited to the Arabs either.

I totally agree. A good example is Sicily in Italy. Plenty of honor killings there.

Matt,
religion is not a human that evolves LOL! so to speak.
What is declared lawful (halal)by God no one can change it to be unlawful (haram). Same way if something is declared unlawful (Haram) with time or area it can never become lawful (Halal), at least that is the case in Islam.
So I do not know how evolution plays that well as you try it to?
If you saying it was OK and lawful what the Catholic Church and Popes did during inquisition period that lasted many centuries, as part of evolution of Catholicism?
Hasan

Edited by honeto - 10 December 2012 at 2:29pm

Islam, is it a culture or a religion? : Originally posted by Matt Browne Originally...

Wed, 05 Dec 2012 09:18:06 +0000

Author: Abu Loren
Subject: 23474
Posted: 05 December 2012 at 9:18am

Originally posted by Matt Browne

Originally posted by Caringheart

The quran and hadith differ on punishment for adultery, which I do not understand.� If the qur'an was the word of God(Allah) shouldn't the hadith agree with the quran?

Maybe Abu Loren or Hasan can comment on this. Not all hadiths are considered authentic (sahih) or good (hasan). Some are seen as weak (daif). This might explain the contradiction.

No we can't comment on wild unfounded accusations. Provide proof from the Holy Qur'an and the Hadiths which are contradictory and we will comment Insha'Allah. Otherwise it's pointless. You people can claim what you like (as you have been claiming on this forum).

Islam, is it a culture or a religion? : Originally posted by CaringheartThe...

Tue, 04 Dec 2012 05:41:46 +0000

Author: Matt Browne
Subject: 23474
Posted: 04 December 2012 at 5:41am

Originally posted by Caringheart

The quran and hadith differ on punishment for adultery, which I do not understand. If the qur'an was the word of God(Allah) shouldn't the hadith agree with the quran?

Maybe Abu Loren or Hasan can comment on this. Not all hadiths are considered authentic (sahih) or good (hasan). Some are seen as weak (daif). This might explain the contradiction.

Islam, is it a culture or a religion? : Originally posted by honetoMatt,...

Tue, 04 Dec 2012 05:36:30 +0000

Author: Matt Browne
Subject: 23474
Posted: 04 December 2012 at 5:36am

Originally posted by honeto

Matt, you are right in Islam, the Quran does not teach honor killing. It must be a cultural thing, not just limited to the Arabs either.

I totally agree. A good example is Sicily in Italy. Plenty of honor killings there.

Yes, and this is why two things are so important

1) We need to understand the historical context of when this was written
2) We need to make sure that religions have the capability to evolve

In Qur'an 4:24 we read:

"Also forbidden are women already married, except slave girls (those whom your right hands possess). Thus has Allah ordained for you. All others are lawful, provided you seek them from your property, desiring chastity, not fornication. So with those among them whom you have enjoyed, give them their required due, but if you agree mutually after the requirement has been determined, there is no sin on you."

Like Christianity, the understanding of Islam has evolved and I can't think of an Islamic scholar who promotes slavery. In the 7th century slavery was part of the culture, but it is no longer in the 21st century. Slavery is wrong.

For the same reason, the death penalty for adulterers is wrong. Leviticus 20:10 isn't applied anymore.

Btw, I'm a secular German Protestant.

Edited by Matt Browne - 04 December 2012 at 5:37am

Islam, is it a culture or a religion? : I said that some raped women...

Tue, 04 Dec 2012 05:26:45 +0000

Author: Matt Browne
Subject: 23474
Posted: 04 December 2012 at 5:26am

I said that some raped women are stoned because of culture, and not because of Islam.

Abu Loren, you seem to be telling me that because of my non-Muslim background I can't join this public conversation. In effect, you're reducing me to my demographics instead of elevating us to shared values. Are you saying that we can't comment on Wall Street's greed, because we are not part of the banking culture? Are you saying that you and I can't comment on racial discrimination that still exists in the US, because you and I are not part of American culture?

Rest assured, Abu Loren, that I'm respecting you. By engaging with you, I'm respecting your mind, soul and substance. If I doubted that you've got any of these, I wouldn't waste my energy. If you still take refuge in defensiveness and keep using Nazi comparisons, though, you're suggesting that you're an automaton who's easily unhinged by comments made by non-Muslims. How are you respecting yourself?

Edited by Matt Browne - 04 December 2012 at 5:28am

Islam, is it a culture or a religion? : Originally posted by Matt...

Mon, 03 Dec 2012 16:06:33 +0000

Author: Caringheart
Subject: 23474
Posted: 03 December 2012 at 4:06pm

Originally posted by Matt Browne

One more thing: Here's a good example of the difference between culture and religion:

Honor killings are part of Arab culture, but they are not part of the Qur'an or the Sunnah. I can't think of a single example that requires raped women to be stoned. Do you?

Hi Matt,
There is confusion on this issue.
The quran and hadith differ on punishment for adultery, which I do not understand. If the qur'an was the word of God(Allah) shouldn't the hadith agree with the quran?

Qur'an prescribes flogging not stoning in surah 24.
However;

"Nearly all hadith collections include three hadiths that are central in the legal arguments about the punishment for zina:

    One to the effect that the Prophet has enforced this punishment in a case of unlawful intercourse among Jews on the basis of the Torah;
    a second one, transmitted by Abu Hurairah states that the Prophet, in a case of intercourse between a young man and a married woman, sentenced the woman to stoning and the young man to flogging and banishment for a year;
    and a third one in which Umar al-Khattab asserts that there was a revelation to the effect that those who are muhsan (i.e. an adult, free, Muslim who has previously enjoyed legitimate sexual relations in matrimony regardless of whether the marriage still exists) and have unlawful intercourse are to be punished with stoning.

The hadith related by Abu Hurairah has been the basis of the fiqh doctrine.

The most accepted collection of Hadith Sahih al Bukhari has 4 entries (under 3829, 8804, 8805 and 8824) which refer to death by stoning. One case involved Jews who were stoned to death in accordance with the Law of the Torah (not the Qur'an). ... the narrator acknowledges his ignorance of whether the stoning to death was carried out before or after the revelation of Quranic Verse 24-2"
(from wikipedia)

If quran supercedes the torah according to Allah, then obviously it would not be right if Jews were stoned following Torah and not treated the same as others by the quran, if surah 24 had been revealed.

Even marriage can be unclear in Islamic tradition, since first a contract is made... which is considered 'marriage' because exchange of dowry is made... but no marriage ceremony takes place until one year later. So what happens in between time? When do relations become acceptable? I understand that often after a contract has been made the wedding never happens, and thus it is considered that there never was a marriage. What does this mean in terms of chastity? What now happens to a woman if she was under the understanding that she was married but one year later finds herself not married.

Islam, is it a culture or a religion? : Matt, are you a secular-Catholic? Hasan...

Mon, 03 Dec 2012 11:14:19 +0000

Author: honeto
Subject: 23474
Posted: 03 December 2012 at 11:14am

Matt,
are you a secular-Catholic?
Hasan

Islam, is it a culture or a religion? : Originally posted by Matt BrowneOne...

Mon, 03 Dec 2012 11:11:23 +0000

Author: honeto
Subject: 23474
Posted: 03 December 2012 at 11:11am

Originally posted by Matt Browne

One more thing: Here's a good example of the difference between culture and religion:Honor killings are part of Arab culture, but they are not part of the Qur'an or the Sunnah. I can't think of a single example that requires raped women to be stoned. Do you?

Matt, you are right in Islam, the Quran does not teach honor killing. It must be a cultural thing, not jsut limited to the Arabs either.
In religious teaching it is surprising that only the Judeo-Christian teaching command honor killings:
In the Bible we read:
Leviticus 20:10
And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.
Hasan

Islam, is it a culture or a religion? : Originally posted by Matt...

Mon, 03 Dec 2012 01:34:15 +0000

Author: Abu Loren
Subject: 23474
Posted: 03 December 2012 at 1:34am

Just where do you get this notion that raped women are stoned Islamically? The only time a woman is stoned is if she has committed adultery.

You seem to imply through your posts that you know something about Islam that the rest of the 1.5 billion muslims do not. But it is obvious from your posts that you do not know anything about Islam not about Muslims. Yet you keep making st**id Nazi like comments.

It probably turns your sterilised Western stomach to learn of the punishment of stoning and cutting off the hand of the thief if caught. These are not man made laws but comes directly from Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala. If you read the Bible then you will know the 'eye for an eye, tooth for a tooth' law. If you knew anything at all then you would know that the Mosaic Law and the Shari'a Law are very similar if not identical. This is because these laws come directly from the One True God Allah Subhana Wa T'ala.

I think it's about time you stopped making st**id posts about subjects you obviously know nothing about.

Islam, is it a culture or a religion? : One more thing: Here's a...

Sun, 02 Dec 2012 03:07:58 +0000

Author: Matt Browne
Subject: 23474
Posted: 02 December 2012 at 3:07am

One more thing: Here's a good example of the difference between culture and religion:

Honor killings are part of Arab culture, but they are not part of the Qur'an or the Sunnah. I can't think of a single example that requires raped women to be stoned. Do you?

Islam, is it a culture or a religion? : Originally posted by honeto Originally...

Fri, 30 Nov 2012 06:56:49 +0000

Author: Matt Browne
Subject: 23474
Posted: 30 November 2012 at 6:56am

Originally posted by honeto

Originally posted by Matt Browne

Hasan, so you agree that the Sharia is optional?

Matt,
no I did not say that.
Hasan

So the Sharia is mandatory? Chopping of hands in mandatory? Stoning adulterers is mandatory?

Islam, is it a culture or a religion? : Originally posted by Caringheart I...

Tue, 09 Oct 2012 15:01:31 +0000

Author: honeto
Subject: 23474
Posted: 09 October 2012 at 3:01pm

Originally posted by Caringheart

I have a question, for lack of a better place to post it...Abu Loren and Hasan have both mentioned the five pillars and prayer... prayer 5 times a day for Muslims.Now I was thinking earlier...Is it realistic for a person who has to go to work to earn a living to be able to stop what he is doing 5 times a day for prayer?I pray often throughout the day because it is what I feel I am called to do...much as the monks, priests, nuns and other church clergy... there are still specific people in the church who belong to orders who are called to pray several times a day... I even think it is 5 times. I think this makes sense for those called into service for the Lord, or for those not bound and with free time, but does it make sense for those who have families to provide for and give their time to?Certainly it is not possible for most to go to a Mosque for this prayer time... not 5 times in a day... not if they are to eat and work, and have time for meaningful contact with their families.I could see where this would hinder getting enough done in a day to enable civilizations to move forward.I can see that it is possible to put too much emphasis on worldly things, pushing God to the side, and that is not acceptable, but isn't it necessary to find a balance so that we are not left struggling for the basic necessities of life?Just wondering how many can, and do, actually fit in prayer, stopping what they are doing, 5 times a day... those without work?I pray all through the day but I do it while I am busy at other things.� Is this acceptable also for the Muslim?And I take a 20 minute prayer time every day at 4:00... but I do miss sometimes... then I do prayer at 9:00 pm, or 2:00 am.� But that's because I can.� I have no outside obligations.� I set my own schedule.� How many have this leisure?

Caringheart,
first I would like to distinguish for you prayer from Muslim Salath that is done five times a day. Salath consists of prayer and more. It includes purification of body and mind, it include worship, meditation, disconnecting from the worldly and connecting to the divine, recitation of part of scripture, asking God's help and guidance for self and others, and much much more.

In Islam every individual has the same responsibilities toward fulfillment of obligations including the five daily salath. Man and woman, rich and poor, priest and seeker, white or black, a farm worker and a surgeon, on and on all under same obligations including five daily Salath to what you call "prayers".

Salath is a reminder and our connection to God. It creates a balance between our priorities. And the way they are spread throughout the day is to make sure we have a chance to remind ourselves of our maker often, so not be lost.
Like a champion who practices as his/her couch plans, a Muslims can champion his faith in practice through Salath.
In today's busy life styles pretty much all across the globe, it makes it very challenging for believer of any faith to practice, for Muslims in particular because there is no modification or change allowed the way they practice their belief or offer their Salath or prayer.
i can give my own example, it has been about twenty years that I became a practicing Muslim and that happened after I came to live here in the US.
I would say there were times it was difficult to perform all Salaths on time. There were times I would do my Salaths after coming home in the evening, sometimes offering three salaths together. Later I realized, I did not make enough effort to offer them on time. I start to care less what others think of it. If I was working, I start offering them during breaks, in hallways, on roadside, in the car, in break rooms, and so on. Offering my Salath on time made me feel better as that's what I was supposed to do. The midday Salath (Zuhr) usually falls during lunch break time, and it made me feel good to connect and remember my maker to offer my worship to Him.
That's the perfect balance, and since there is not such thing as a priest in Islam, so non is above, none has excuse to over or under doing it. All humans are equal in the sight of our maker, if any has a degree higher than the other in His sight is due to the level of our piety.

Like I said prayer is different then Salath, like you and I may pray to God and remember Him all day long. Salath is different for it requires a bit more of your serious desire.
First, on a cold day to wash and do abulution can be of some serious test of desire and faith. If we can get up 6 in the morning on a cold morning to take a shower to go to work (for a worldly duty and gain, even that is a prayer in Islam by the way) even if it is difficult for us to do. We are talking about our duty to God, we have to show the degree of seriousness accordingly at least!
Then to take time to go away from the noise and busyness of the day to focus on the worship without distractions in order to offer prayer, worship and connect to our maker.

It (Salath) has to do with seriousness of one's commitment to His belief for that Allah has said that it is Salth that distinguishes a true believer.
I have been offering Salath for over 20 years now, it is my connection to God. It makes me also happy to feel each time that I am fulfilling an obligation I am told to do. In particular when I put my forehead in front of my Creator and repeat " All Praise is to You Lord, Most High" while understanding my weak and dependent position in front of His, The All capable. This alone is very strong and satisfying to a believing heart.
Allah has set times for our Salaths and asked us to offer them at those times for a purpose. God knows better than us even though sometimes we think we know enough to amend and change what God has told us to do. Thing is those who are looking for excuses will find them one way or the other, but they only make stronger evidence and case against themselves. For those who believe, God's command is enough to guide them to do good.
Hasan

Edited by honeto - 09 October 2012 at 3:17pm

Islam, is it a culture or a religion? : Originally posted by Caringheart I...

Tue, 09 Oct 2012 14:53:06 +0000

Author: Idil
Subject: 23474
Posted: 09 October 2012 at 2:53pm

Originally posted by Caringheart

I have a question, for lack of a better place to post it...
Abu Loren and Hasan have both mentioned the five pillars and prayer... prayer 5 times a day for Muslims.
Now I was thinking earlier...
Is it realistic for a person who has to go to work to earn a living to be able to stop what he is doing 5 times a day for prayer?
I pray often throughout the day because it is what I feel I am called to do...
much as the monks, priests, nuns and other church clergy... there are still specific people in the church who belong to orders who are called to pray several times a day... I even think it is 5 times.
I think this makes sense for those called into service for the Lord, or for those not bound and with free time, but does it make sense for those who have families to provide for and give their time to?
Certainly it is not possible for most to go to a Mosque for this prayer time... not 5 times in a day... not if they are to eat and work, and have time for meaningful contact with their families.
I could see where this would hinder getting enough done in a day to enable civilizations to move forward.
I can see that it is possible to put too much emphasis on worldly things, pushing God to the side, and that is not acceptable, but isn't it necessary to find a balance so that we are not left struggling for the basic necessities of life?
Just wondering how many can, and do, actually fit in prayer, stopping what they are doing, 5 times a day... those without work?

I pray all through the day but I do it while I am busy at other things. Is this acceptable also for the Muslim?

And I take a 20 minute prayer time every day at 4:00... but I do miss sometimes... then I do prayer at 9:00 pm, or 2:00 am. But that's because I can. I have no outside obligations. I set my own schedule. How many have this leisure?

As muslims we are ordered by God to pray five times a day at a specific times and as muslims we have to obey this order as it is for own benefit. If you think about it, God has bestowed upon us many blessings and has made disposal to us 24 hours a day. Considering all this blessing surely we can devote about half hour a day to our prayers. Also within the prayers there are many benefits to us. Especially it takes away worldly worries and mental illnesses.

Edited by Idil - 09 October 2012 at 2:59pm

Islam, is it a culture or a religion? : Originally posted by Caringheart Originally...

Sun, 07 Oct 2012 03:22:12 +0000

Author: Abu Loren
Subject: 23474
Posted: 07 October 2012 at 3:22am

Originally posted by Caringheart

Originally posted by Abu Loren

Surah 2 is a very long surah which verse are you talking about?

Greetings Abu Loren,

"I wonder if when you read your Quran you thought about Surah 2 where it said the Jews killed a man and God brought him back to life? --- Whether you thought of that in relation to Jesus?"

These are the words of someone else that I was sharing, but I have looked up the surah.� I was in the middle of reading surah 2 anyway.� It has taken me some time because yes, it is very long.� Hard to imagine all that could have been memorized in one sitting.� It looks to me like they must be referring to verse 2:259Salaam,Caringheart

No, it has no resemblance to the life of Jesus (pbuh) because Jesus (pbuh) did not die. Taken on it's own, it's just simply a sign from Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala to an unbeliever.

Islam, is it a culture or a religion? : Originally posted by Caringheart I...

Sun, 07 Oct 2012 03:20:04 +0000

Author: Abu Loren
Subject: 23474
Posted: 07 October 2012 at 3:20am

Caringheart, simply put a Muslim who does not pray at the stipulated times of the day is out of the fold of Islam. If for various reasons one is unable to pray at the stipulated then that person can make up the prayer as soon as is able to do so.

All Muslims are supposed to pray at their place of business including offices, shops etc.

In Islam there is no excuse for Muslims to not to pray. Allah Subhana Wa T'ala has given us so many concessions that one is even able to pray lying down paralysed.

By the way, where I live in the UAE almost all government buildings and commercial offices provide a prayer room.

Oh I nearly forgot, also there is a masjid like every 10 yards so one is not too far from a place of prayer :)

Edited by Abu Loren - 07 October 2012 at 5:16am

Islam, is it a culture or a religion? : Originally posted by honetoCaringheart, You...

Sat, 06 Oct 2012 18:22:46 +0000

Author: Caringheart
Subject: 23474
Posted: 06 October 2012 at 6:22pm

Originally posted by honeto

Caringheart,
You just don't read as much then. Islamic belief is that what you just said above. We all sin, and we sin knowingly and unknowingly. For that we are required to know our deen, our belief so we do not do sins unknowingly thus avoiding and resisting them once we learn that they are sins. When we knowingly disobey God, we deny Judgement and the Hereafter. When we make a mistake or sin, seriously repent to not to repeat it again and pay punishment according to the law and amend our behavior afterward and seek Allah's forgiveness, we will find Allah Forgiving and Merciful according to the Quran. For those who stay consistent in their observance of limits set by Allah, Allah will forgive them their mistakes and they will enter Paradise, the eternal salvation.
We do not believe that someone can pay for your sins as a ransom with blood or gold or anything. If Allah forgives and grants salvation, none can stop it!
Hasan

Greetings Hasan,

So many of the Muslims I have spoken with seem to think it is their duty, and within their human ability, to be sinless. They seem to present that if they are Muslim they are sinless. So hearing you acknowledge the sinfulness of man took me by surprise. It just goes to show how individual we all are. You have shown me a uniqueness of yourself.

Salaam,
Caringheart

Islam, is it a culture or a religion? : Originally posted by Abu LorenSurah...

Sat, 06 Oct 2012 18:15:27 +0000

Author: Caringheart
Subject: 23474
Posted: 06 October 2012 at 6:15pm

Originally posted by Abu Loren

Surah 2 is a very long surah which verse are you talking about?

Greetings Abu Loren,

"I wonder if when you read your Quran you thought about Surah 2 where it said the Jews killed a man and God brought him back to life? --- Whether you thought of that in relation to Jesus?"

These are the words of someone else that I was sharing, but I have looked up the surah. I was in the middle of reading surah 2 anyway. It has taken me some time because yes, it is very long. Hard to imagine all that could have been memorized in one sitting.
It looks to me like they must be referring to verse 2:259

Salaam,
Caringheart

Islam, is it a culture or a religion? : I have a question, for lack...

Fri, 05 Oct 2012 20:22:44 +0000

Author: Caringheart
Subject: 23474
Posted: 05 October 2012 at 8:22pm

I have a question, for lack of a better place to post it...
Abu Loren and Hasan have both mentioned the five pillars and prayer... prayer 5 times a day for Muslims.
Now I was thinking earlier...
Is it realistic for a person who has to go to work to earn a living to be able to stop what he is doing 5 times a day for prayer?
I pray often throughout the day because it is what I feel I am called to do...
much as the monks, priests, nuns and other church clergy... there are still specific people in the church who belong to orders who are called to pray several times a day... I even think it is 5 times.
I think this makes sense for those called into service for the Lord, or for those not bound and with free time, but does it make sense for those who have families to provide for and give their time to?
Certainly it is not possible for most to go to a Mosque for this prayer time... not 5 times in a day... not if they are to eat and work, and have time for meaningful contact with their families.
I could see where this would hinder getting enough done in a day to enable civilizations to move forward.
I can see that it is possible to put too much emphasis on worldly things, pushing God to the side, and that is not acceptable, but isn't it necessary to find a balance so that we are not left struggling for the basic necessities of life?
Just wondering how many can, and do, actually fit in prayer, stopping what they are doing, 5 times a day... those without work?

I pray all through the day but I do it while I am busy at other things. Is this acceptable also for the Muslim?

And I take a 20 minute prayer time every day at 4:00... but I do miss sometimes... then I do prayer at 9:00 pm, or 2:00 am. But that's because I can. I have no outside obligations. I set my own schedule. How many have this leisure?

Edited by Caringheart - 05 October 2012 at 8:38pm

Islam, is it a culture or a religion? : Caringheart, you wrote:""Every...

Fri, 05 Oct 2012 14:40:56 +0000

Author: honeto
Subject: 23474
Posted: 05 October 2012 at 2:40pm

Caringheart,
you wrote:""Every single human being on earth is prone to sin, in fact we sin every minute of the day by thinking sinful thoughts."
I don't often hear this from a Muslim. How does a Muslim achieve salvation... escape from sin?

You just don't read as much then. Islamic belief is that what you just said above. We all sin, and we sin knowingly and unknowingly. For that we are required to know our deen, our belief so we do not do sins unknowingly thus avoiding and resisting them once we learn that they are sins. When we knowingly disobey God, we deny Judgement and the Hereafter. When we make a mistake or sin, seriously repent to not to repeat it again and pay punishment according to the law and amend our behavior afterward and seek Allah's forgiveness, we will find Allah Forgiving and Merciful according to the Quran. For those who stay consistent in their observance of limits set by Allah, Allah will forgive them their mistakes and they will enter Paradise, the eternal salvation.
We do not believe that someone can pay for your sins as a ransom with blood or gold or anything. If Allah forgives and grants salvation, none can stop it!
Hasan

Edited by honeto - 05 October 2012 at 2:45pm

Islam, is it a culture or a religion? : Originally posted by Caringheart I...

Fri, 05 Oct 2012 13:30:10 +0000

Author: Abu Loren
Subject: 23474
Posted: 05 October 2012 at 1:30pm

Originally posted by Caringheart

I don't often hear this from a Muslim.� How does a Muslim achieve salvation... escape from sin?
I wonder if when you read your Quran you thought about Surah 2 where it said the Jews killed a man and God brought him back to life? --- Whether you thought of that in relation to Jesus?"[end of quote]Salaam,Caringheart

A Muslim achieve (achieve is the wrong word) seek salvation just by asking forgiveness from Our Lord. He is the most Merciful. Of course, one must to begin with follow His Laws and what He has stipulated such as prayer, charity, pilgrimage etc the five pillars. He says in the Holy Qur'an that just ask and He will give.

Surah 2 is a very long surah which verse are you talking about?

Islam, is it a culture or a religion? : Originally posted by truthnowcome Originally...

Fri, 05 Oct 2012 10:53:25 +0000

Author: Caringheart
Subject: 23474
Posted: 05 October 2012 at 10:53am

Originally posted by truthnowcome

Originally posted by Caringheart

This is what I was reading;

"I wonder how familiar you are with the OT animal sacrifices?
In order to sacrifice to the Lord for a person, or for the sins of the people, they had to bring a pure spotless animal and the priest would kill it, --- then the blood was drained out, --- and the innocent body, drained of blood was what God required, --- and accepted.

--- (I know, it sounds kind of gory to most people, --- but the meat was not wasted but roasted and used by the priests or relatives, or given to the poor.)
In a sense, the killing of pure healthy animals, draining them of blood, and using them for food after the sacrificial offering was �Kosher,�
--- But the question was, why did God call for a body without blood, in order for it to be a substitute for someone else�s sin?

If we go to the beginning, God created man from dust, �And breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and man became a living soul (being).� Genesis 2:7

The �life support system� of Adam and Eve was the Holy Spirit of God.
When Adam and Eve sinned, they were no longer pure or holy, --- so the Holy Spirit had to withdraw from them. --- When they were put out of the Garden, their bodies were changed to be like the bodies of animals with a circulatory blood system as their new �life support system.�

God had said that if they were disobedient to God�s command, and ate of the forbidden fruit ---they would die. This first referred to Spiritual death, as the Holy Spirit could not remain in an unholy body, --- and then it resulted in physical death as a blood body ages and dies.
And, if you will receive it, --- this is what Jesus meant in John 3 when He said, �You must be Born Again,� --- or born Spiritually, to be restored to a right relationship with God.
--- So, since Adam was a pure body without blood, --- what God demanded of the Israelites was a pure body without blood, to be an acceptable sacrifice for sin.

--- So, difficult as it may seem, the blood body was the offense to God and it could not approach God on its own merit.
However, the animal had to die because, as the Scripture says, �The life is in the blood,� --- and again it says, �Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin.�

I wonder if when you read your Quran you thought about Surah 2 where it said the Jews killed a man and God brought him back to life? --- Whether you thought of that in relation to Jesus?"

[end of quote]

Salaam,
Caringheart

Peace untoyou,

Caringheart,your opinion sound good to you; can you show me where it mentioned in the O.T. thatthey bodies turn flesh.

They were created from DUST.

TNC

Greetings TNC,

What I shared is an interpretation of another. It made sense to me.

The way it made sense to me is this;

Yes, Adam was created from dust... and God breathed life into him with the Holy Spirit. After Adam's sin the Holy spirit could no longer dwell in him, so he needed another life support system... blood... the blood is the thing that signifies that he is impure... corrupted by sin. This is what the catholic church calls original sin, and is the reason they baptise babies... to cleanse them from original sin in case they die before receiving the Holy Spirit... but I digress...

This is why the early Jews had to practice blood sacrifice as repentance for sin. This is what I was understanding, and it made sense to me.

Is that helpful?

Blessings to you,

CLynn

Edited by Caringheart - 05 October 2012 at 10:56am

Islam, is it a culture or a religion? : Originally posted by Caringheart This...

Thu, 04 Oct 2012 23:09:20 +0000

Author: truthnowcome
Subject: 23474
Posted: 04 October 2012 at 11:09pm

Peace untoyou,

Caringheart,your opinion sound good to you; can you show me where it mentioned in the O.T. thatthey bodies turn flesh.

They were created from DUST.

TNC

Islam, is it a culture or a religion? : Originally posted by Abu...

Thu, 04 Oct 2012 13:10:04 +0000

Author: Caringheart
Subject: 23474
Posted: 04 October 2012 at 1:10pm

Originally posted by Abu Loren

Caringheart, you as a born again Christian believe that the Holy Spirit in-dwells a believer. So answer this question.

Do you believe that the human body/vessel is pure for a holy being to dwell?
Every single human being on earth is prone to sin, in fact we sin every minute of the day by thinking sinful thoughts.

Greetings Abu Loren,

I don't consider myself as a 'born-again' Christian. I am one who has always belonged to God... though I have sinned. I am one who believes in Jesus and in is His great sacrifice of Love that binds my heart to God, bringing to me the Holy Spirit to bring me into all guidance.

"Do you believe that the human body/vessel is pure for a holy being to dwell? "

Hmmm(meaning you give me pause to think), this is interesting to think about. I understand your thinking. It kind of goes with a religious concept I was just reading about the other night, about blood sacrifice and how the body is not pure because of the blood. I will have to go look it up and re-read.

"Every single human being on earth is prone to sin, in fact we sin every minute of the day by thinking sinful thoughts."

I don't often hear this from a Muslim. How does a Muslim achieve salvation... escape from sin?

For me when we turn our thoughts to God... when we "renew our minds daily"... when we "put on the whole armour of God"... when we are indwelled with the Holy Spirit, our thoughts are guarded from sinful thinking, and since actions follow what we allow ourselves to think on, we guarded from sin. This was the whole point of Jesus coming... to lead us to God... to receive the Holy Spirit in this life. I honestly can say that my thoughts are not dominated by sinful thoughts. Knowing Jesus has led me to live every minute with God at the forefront, examining my thoughts and actions ongoing throughout the day, and immediately repenting and asking for forgiveness... God, because He is part of my every minute of every day, through the Holy Spirit, is quick to convict me of any straying.

From childhood there is a prayer that had great impact on me(the bold part), and has always stayed with me.
"O my God, I am heartily sorry for having offended Thee, and I detest all my sins... most of all because they offend Thee my God who art all good and deserving of all my love. I firmly resolve with the help of Thy grace to sin no more and to avoid the near occasion of sin."
While I went through a time in my life when my conscience was dulled due to the influences of my culture, I never forgot that God was my ultimate goal, and I did return to Him, and have never left Him since... well, to the best of my ability. I still have occasion to be 'too slow to listen and too quick to speak'. I am good at avoiding the 'near occasions of sin' by removing all corrupting influences from my life... the things I watch, the music I listen to, what I read, and not placing myself in those situations that might tempt me to sin. I say I do all this only by the power of the Love of my God.
_________________________________________

This is what I was reading;

"I wonder how familiar you are with the OT animal sacrifices?
In order to sacrifice to the Lord for a person, or for the sins of the people, they had to bring a pure spotless animal and the priest would kill it, --- then the blood was drained out, --- and the innocent body, drained of blood was what God required, --- and accepted.

--- (I know, it sounds kind of gory to most people, --- but the meat was not wasted but roasted and used by the priests or relatives, or given to the poor.)
In a sense, the killing of pure healthy animals, draining them of blood, and using them for food after the sacrificial offering was �Kosher,�
--- But the question was, why did God call for a body without blood, in order for it to be a substitute for someone else�s sin?

If we go to the beginning, God created man from dust, �And breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and man became a living soul (being).� Genesis 2:7

The �life support system� of Adam and Eve was the Holy Spirit of God.
When Adam and Eve sinned, they were no longer pure or holy, --- so the Holy Spirit had to withdraw from them. --- When they were put out of the Garden, their bodies were changed to be like the bodies of animals with a circulatory blood system as their new �life support system.�

God had said that if they were disobedient to God�s command, and ate of the forbidden fruit ---they would die. This first referred to Spiritual death, as the Holy Spirit could not remain in an unholy body, --- and then it resulted in physical death as a blood body ages and dies.
And, if you will receive it, --- this is what Jesus meant in John 3 when He said, �You must be Born Again,� --- or born Spiritually, to be restored to a right relationship with God.
--- So, since Adam was a pure body without blood, --- what God demanded of the Israelites was a pure body without blood, to be an acceptable sacrifice for sin.

--- So, difficult as it may seem, the blood body was the offense to God and it could not approach God on its own merit.
However, the animal had to die because, as the Scripture says, �The life is in the blood,� --- and again it says, �Without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin.�

I wonder if when you read your Quran you thought about Surah 2 where it said the Jews killed a man and God brought him back to life? --- Whether you thought of that in relation to Jesus?"

[end of quote]

Salaam,
Caringheart

Edited by Caringheart - 04 October 2012 at 1:26pm

Islam, is it a culture or a religion? : Originally posted by CaringheartThanks...

Thu, 04 Oct 2012 02:53:43 +0000

Author: Abu Loren
Subject: 23474
Posted: 04 October 2012 at 2:53am

Originally posted by Caringheart

Thanks TNC,I found your reply interesting.Re:� "The religion you are following is manmade, it a set of law creat by man to live by; they took from other religions and add there own idea and made up there own religion..."I would say this same about Islam.But I do very much like this:"... have chosen for you submit to my will as your way of life."We must discern carefully with guidance of the Holy Spirit, not man... and be sure that we are submitting to the true will of the Creator, and not something else.Salaam,Caringheart

Caringheart, you as a born again Christian believe that the Holy Spirit in-dwells a believer. So answer this question.

Do you believe that the human body/vessel is pure for a holy being to dwell?
Every single human being on earth is prone to sin, in fact we sin every minute of the day by thinking sinful thoughts.

Islam, is it a culture or a religion? : Originally posted by CaringheartThanks...

Wed, 03 Oct 2012 00:31:45 +0000

Author: truthnowcome
Subject: 23474
Posted: 03 October 2012 at 12:31am

Originally posted by Caringheart

Thanks TNC,
I found your reply interesting.

Re: "The religion you are following is manmade, it a set of law creat by man to live by; they took from other religions and add there own idea and made up there own religion..."

I would say this same about Islam.
But I do very much like this:
"... have chosen for you submit to my will as your way of life."

We must discern carefully with guidance of the Holy Spirit, not man... and be sure that we are submitting to the true will of the Creator, and not something else.

Salaam,
Caringheart

Peace Caringheart.<>

Ifwe go back to the origin of man, the first man Adam (S) as the scripturesestablished, we would recognize that he was order by God Almighty to �submit toHis will� in order to received help and guidance; thus, he believed in�submitting to God�s will� which when translates in to Arabic would be �ISLAM�;so Islam was there from the very beginning of Adam (S). The Qur�an is just thelast message to all mankind [The Religion before Allah is Islam (submission to HisWill)�But if you deny the Signs of Allah, Allah is swift in calling to account.(Q.3:19)]. It is God Almighty who chooses the name �ISLAM�for his religion. (This day have I perfected yourreligion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosen for you Islamas your religion. Q.5:3)

Allprophets believe in the �submission to God�s will (Islam)

�For We assuredly sent amongstevery People an apostle, (with the Command), "Serve Allah, and eschewEvil": of the People were some whom Allah guided, and some on whom errorbecame inevitably (established). So travel through the earth, and see what wasthe end of those who denied (the Truth).� (Qur.16:36); and �We sent not an apostle except (to teach) in the language of his(own) people, in order to make (things) clear to them. Now Allah leavesstraying those whom He pleases and guides whom He pleases: and He is Exalted inpower, full of Wisdom�.� (Qur.14:4)

Forexample Jesus (S) was sent to the Children of Israel:

�But he answered and said, I am not sent but unto thelost sheep of the house of Israel.� (Matthew15:24); These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Gonot into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enterye not: But go rather to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.� (Matthew10:5-6)

Muhammad(S) on the other hand was sent as a universal Messenger to all mankind, Allah(S) mentioned in Qur�an:

�We have not sent thee but as a(universal messenger) to all mankind�but most of mankind knew not�. (Q.34:28)

BELIEVE IN THE ONLY ONETRUE GOD ALLAH

Weall came from the first man and woman, Adam and Eve, then a nation, then manynations and tribe. Revelation was sent to mankind since the beginning forguidance and Allah (S) mentioned, those people did not differ among themselvesexcept through selfish contumacy and Allah (S) honored the most righteous amongthe mankind.

�O mankind! We created you froma single (pair) of a male and a female, and made you into nations andtribes, that ye may know each other (not that ye may despise (each other).Verily the most honoured of you in the sight of Allah is (he who is) the mostrighteous of you. And Allah has full knowledge and is well acquainted (with allthings). (Qur.49:13)

Mankind was one single nation, andAllah sent Messengers with glad tidings and warnings; and with them He sent theBook in truth, to judge between people in matters wherein they differed; butthe people of the Book, after the clear Signs came to them, did not differamong themselves, except through selfish contumacy. Allah by His Grace Guidedthe believers to the Truth, concerning that wherein they differed. For Allahguided whom He will to a path that is straight.� (Qur.2:213)

Thenoble call to people of the book:

Say: "O people of the Book! Come to common terms as between us andyou: That we worship none but Allah; that we associate no partners with him;that we erect not, from among ourselves, Lords and patrons other thanAllah." If then they turn back, say ye: "Bear witness that we (atleast) are Muslims (bowing to Allah's Will). (Q.3:64)

Jesus(S) in his final message he looks up to the Heaven and gives thanks to GodAlmighty for affording him to give eternal life to all whom God Almighty haschosen; and that is to believe in the one true God and Jesus the Messiah whomHe has sent.

�1These words spake Jesus, andlifted up his eyes to heaven, and said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thySon, that thy Son also may glorify thee:²As thou hast given himpower over all flesh, that he should give eternal life to as many asthou hast given him.�(John 17:1-2)

Thisis what he said:

�³And this is lifeeternal, that they (thedisciples or who call themselves Christian) might know thee theonly true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou (the only true God) hast sent.� (John 17:1-2); And Jesus answered and said unto him, Get thee behindme, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him onlyshalt thou serve. (Luke 4:8)

Thatis the declaration of faith at the time of Jesus (S), in other words, is tobelieve in no other deity except the one true God Allah (S) and Jesus (S) isthe messenger of Allah (S) and you will received ETERNAL LIFE. Same declarationMuslims make except that at the end they say, Muhammad (S) is the messenger ofAllah (S). That is to say: �I testify that there is no other deity except Allah(S) and I testify that Muhammad (S) is the messenger of Allah (S).�

Thosewho fallow the Messenger, the unletteredProphet, whom they find mention intheir own (Scriptures), In the Taurat {Torah} and the Injeel (Gospel).(Q.7:157).

Torah: Isaiah29:12 and Gospel: John16:13 ��for he shall not speak ofhimself; but whatsoever he shall hear� [from angel Gabriel (S)].

And thou(O Muhammad) was not (able) to recite a book before this (book came), nor artthou (able) to transcribe it with thy right hand: in that case indeed, wouldthe talkers of vanity have doubted. (Q.29:48)

Nor doeshe say (aught) of (his own) desire. It is no less than inspiration sent down tohim. He was taught by one mighty in power. (Q.53:3-5)

All the truth with the coming ofthe Qur�an:

�� And Wehave sent down to you the Book (the Qur'an) as an exposition of everything, a guidance, a mercy, and glad tidings forthose who have submitted themselves (to All�h as Muslims)�. (Qur�an 16:89)

Allah the almighty reminds the people who call themselves Christian oftheir forgetfulness:

�Fromthose, too, who called themselvesChristians We did take a Covenant, Butthey forgot a good part of themessage that was sent down: So We stirred up enmity and hatred between theone and the other, to the Day of Judgment. And soon will Allah show them whatit is they have done. (Q.5:14)

Then He Allah (S) said:

�O Peopleof the Book! There hath come to you our Messenger, revealing to you much that you used to hide in your Book, and passing over much (that is now unnecessary):There hath come to you from Allah a light [Muhammad (pbuh)] and a perspicuousBook.� (Q.5:15)

�So fearAllah, and obey me [Muhammad (S) and the message he brought]. (Q.3:50)

Verilythis Qur�an doith guide to that which is most right. (Q.17:9)

truthnowcome

Islam, is it a culture or a religion? : Thanks TNC,I found your reply...

Tue, 02 Oct 2012 13:52:29 +0000

Author: Caringheart
Subject: 23474
Posted: 02 October 2012 at 1:52pm

Thanks TNC,
I found your reply interesting.

Re: "The religion you are following is manmade, it a set of law creat by man to live by; they took from other religions and add there own idea and made up there own religion..."

I would say this same about Islam.
But I do very much like this:
"... have chosen for you submit to my will as your way of life."

We must discern carefully with guidance of the Holy Spirit, not man... and be sure that we are submitting to the true will of the Creator, and not something else.

Salaam,
Caringheart

Islam, is it a culture or a religion? : Originally posted by Caringheart AsI...

Tue, 02 Oct 2012 00:57:34 +0000

Author: truthnowcome
Subject: 23474
Posted: 02 October 2012 at 12:57am

Originally posted by Caringheart

As I am reading tonight I have some thoughts. I don't know how well to express them. (I am not at home on my own computer so not as easy to hold a thought )

So anyway, just so I don't forget altogether I thought I would at least post the question that is in my mind.

Islam, is it a culture or is it a religion? (or a regime?... I feel I have to ask that too)

The reason this question comes to my mind is because when I think of the people who are joining Islam... I believe it is the culture that attracts them. I believe the Muslim people live in a way that has been missing in the world ever since the 1960's, and the drifting away from strongly held values, that we have seen change and alter the world, and not in good ways. I believe we are seeing the bad fruits of drifting away from those values, while the Muslims, which came later, are still holding to those values. I think we see something in them that we miss in our own society.

But I do not think the religion and the culture are one and the same.

I see a great deal of confusion in the religion, though the culture is attractive.

And though the culture is attractive, because the religion is not clear, it can also be dangerous.

I don't know if that really says what I am trying to express, but I gave it a shot. I may add or change later.

But I would love any feedback.

Peace!

Caringheart,don�t get caught up with english�s words! The word �religion� was created todevide people as of religion and states. What is religion is really a system ofgovenance, which includes laws, and culture is part of the law sent by God tovarious nations to live by.

Allah (S) said: �For We assuredly sent amongst every People an apostle,(with the Command), "Serve Allah, and eschew Evil": of the Peoplewere some whom Allah guided, and some on whom error became inevitably(established). So travel through the earth, and see what was the end of thosewho denied (the Truth).� (Qur.16:36); and �We sentnot an apostle except (to teach) in the language of his (own) people, in orderto make (things) clear to them. Now Allah leaves straying those whom Hepleases and guides whom He pleases: and He is Exalted in power, full ofWisdom�.� (Qur.14:4)

Thereligion you are following is manmade, it a set of law creat by man to live by;they took from other religions and add there own idea and made up there ownreligion KNOWN AS CAPTILASM and they creates and promoting their culture truethe music industry:

(Part 1)https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXG2du8nowc

(2) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tmp7zXCM_Ms&feature=channel&list=UL

(3) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ltdN5U8C_gM&feature=related

The word�religion� is a mistranslation of the word �Deen� which means �a complete wayof life�.

Allah (S) said: This day have Iperfected your religion for you, completed My favour upon you, and have chosenfor you Islam as your religion. (Q.5:3)

If we putthe correct translation instead of religion and Islam we will have this:

This dayhave I perfected your way of life for you, completed My favour upon you, andhave chosen for you submit to my will as your way of life. (Q.5:3)

That way of life includes laws to govern in all aspect of human life which cultured is part of it:

�Blessedis He who sent down the Criterion (ofjudgment between right and wrong) to His Servant, that it may be an admonition to all creatures.� (Q.25:1)

Thus have We revealed it (the Qur�an) to be a judgment of authority in Arabic (Q.13:37)

TNC

Islam, is it a culture or a religion? : Asalamu Calykum, Islam with a...

Mon, 01 Oct 2012 14:05:06 +0000

Author: Idil
Subject: 23474
Posted: 01 October 2012 at 2:05pm

Asalamu Calykum,

Islam with a doubt is a religion. I can understand where your confusion might come from. Nowadays, especially in Muslim countries the two are inseparable. However, if you analyse the cultures that are wide spread in many muslim countries you will see in them many deficiencies and unjust. Especially there is great bias towards women. On the other hand, Islam is perfect and just and treats everyone equal as God is the Most Just. For this reason, as a born muslim who comes from a crooked culture I love Islam and for this reason the two are in no way the same. Hope this helps in clarifying things for you.

Islam, is it a culture or a religion? : Originally posted by abjad Originally...

Sun, 19 Aug 2012 11:27:40 +0000

Author: Al Saadiqeen21
Subject: 23474
Posted: 19 August 2012 at 11:27am

Originally posted by abjad

Originally posted by Caringheart

As I am reading tonight I have some thoughts. I don't know how well to express them. (I am not at home on my own computer so not as easy to hold a thought )

So anyway, just so I don't forget altogether I thought I would at least post the question that is in my mind.

Islam, is it a culture or is it a religion? (or a regime?... I feel I have to ask that too)

But I do not think the religion and the culture are one and the same.

I see a great deal of confusion in the religion, though the culture is attractive.

And though the culture is attractive, because the religion is not clear, it can also be dangerous.

I don't know if that really says what I am trying to express, but I gave it a shot. I may add or change later.

But I would love any feedback.

Deen Islam.

a religion.

In red above, try to twist your mind and think to others parallel to your writings.

Are you taking about ISLAM or Muslims?

Islam is a way of life .

Islam, is it a culture or a religion? : Abu Loren wrote: I know many many...

Thu, 09 Aug 2012 12:44:43 +0000

Author: Reepicheep
Subject: 23474
Posted: 09 August 2012 at 12:44pm

Abu Loren wrote: I know many many many many Christians who will only grace the footsteps of a church on Christmas Eve, after getting drunk and out of their minds.

Abu Loren, I asked you almost two weeks ago to provide us with more details on these "many many many many Christians" that you claim to know, who "only grace the footsteps of a church on Christmas Eve, after getting drunk and out of their minds". Since you have failed to provide us with any further information, I think we have no choice but to assume that you were lying when you made that statement.

If, in fact, you weren't lying, then once again I ask you to provide us with as many details as you can recall about these many, many, many, many drunken, out of their minds, Christians.

****************

Since you choose to remain silent and refuse to either confirm or deny the accuracy of your statement, for the remainder of this post I'll assume you deliberately lied when you made your claim.

As a muslim, you believe that, on the Day of Judgement, you will have to stand before God and defend the life you lived. Your above statement about Christians is (I believe) an example of a time during your life where you told a lie.

As a muslim, do you believe that your lie is a sin for which you will be punished on the day of judgement? Or, alternatively, do you believe that, by telling this lie, you were committing a righteous act for which you will be richly rewarded on the day of judgement?

Islam, is it a culture or a religion? : Originally posted by Matt BrowneHasan,...

Wed, 01 Aug 2012 16:50:14 +0000

Author: honeto
Subject: 23474
Posted: 01 August 2012 at 4:50pm

Originally posted by Matt Browne

Hasan, so you agree that the Sharia is optional?

Matt,
no I did not say that.
Hasan

Islam, is it a culture or a religion? : Hasan, so you agree that the Sharia...

Sat, 28 Jul 2012 04:06:21 +0000

Author: Matt Browne
Subject: 23474
Posted: 28 July 2012 at 4:06am

Hasan, so you agree that the Sharia is optional?

Islam, is it a culture or a religion? : Originally posted by honetoIslam...

Fri, 27 Jul 2012 19:55:40 +0000

Author: Caringheart
Subject: 23474
Posted: 27 July 2012 at 7:55pm

Originally posted by honeto

Islam is a religion, people of different cultures adopt it. It changes their way of life depending how much they let it to shape their lives thus showing the varieties we see just like people who follow any other religion.
Remember, people will be people different from one another, the religion, Islam, always remain same and so does it's teachings.
Hasan

You must not have seen my most recent post on the thread 'Infidels'.

Islam, is it a culture or a religion? : Islam is a religion, people of...

Fri, 27 Jul 2012 18:19:52 +0000

Author: honeto
Subject: 23474
Posted: 27 July 2012 at 6:19pm

Islam is a religion, people of different cultures adopt it. It changes their way of life depending how much they let it to shape their lives thus showing the varieties we see just like people who follow any other religion.
Remember, people will be people different from one another, the religion, Islam, always remain same and so does it's teachings.
Hasan

Islam, is it a culture or a religion? : Originally posted by Abu Loren Even...

Fri, 27 Jul 2012 17:18:05 +0000

Author: Caringheart
Subject: 23474
Posted: 27 July 2012 at 5:18pm

Originally posted by Abu Loren

Even if one Christian gets drunk and goes to church is bad.

This just hit me today.

Even if one person gets drunk, and does not go to church, it is bad. In, or out of church, it is a bad thing.

The more important issue that I think is being addressed is... is it right to condemn all persons of one faith because of the actions of a few, or even the many?

What did Abraham say when God went to punish Sodom and Gommorha?
Why did God save Noah?

Because there are always some good, mixed in with the bad, unable to escape the ways of others... the culture.

Appropriately, we are addressing culture vs. religion.

I agree that a great deal of what ails the western world could be eliminated if alcohol was eliminated. (and drugs) How are we to do this? All things we have were put here by God. How do we get people to not use and abuse them?

Even in Biblical times people drank wine.

I was just watching a show the other day that said that there is no alcohol permitted in Islamic countries. I would like to know how this is monitored, implemented, and controlled... and I wonder how effectively. In the United States there was the prohibition era and it did not work. It only increased criminal activity. It was one of the worst periods in the history of America. People always find a way to get what they want.
Is there really no fruit brandy's partaken of in the homes of any Muslims? I would be fascinated to know.

Islam, is it a culture or a religion? : Abu Loren wrote: Even if one Christian...

Fri, 27 Jul 2012 06:12:41 +0000

Author: Reepicheep
Subject: 23474
Posted: 27 July 2012 at 6:12am

Abu Loren wrote: Even if one Christian gets drunk and goes to church is bad.

Agreed. But that's not what we are discussing. We are discussing the following:

Abu Loren wrote: I know many many many many Christians who will only grace the footsteps of a church on Christmas Eve, after getting drunk and out of their minds.

There have no doubt been many cases where Christians have gone to church drunk, although I have never, in 53 years of going to church, ever witnessed this myself. That is why I have trouble accepting your claim that you know "many many many many" Christians who only go to church on Christmas Eve who are "drunk and out of their minds".

I suspect your statement is a lie and, in fact, you don't know ANY Christians who meet the criteria of your accusation. Correct?

If you know of even one such incident, then please tell us about it.

Edited by Reepicheep - 27 July 2012 at 6:15am

Islam, is it a culture or a religion? : Originally posted by Abu Loren Many...

Thu, 26 Jul 2012 22:21:28 +0000

Author: Caringheart
Subject: 23474
Posted: 26 July 2012 at 10:21pm

Originally posted by Abu Loren

Many Islamic states are run by tyrants who suppress the people and they live a life of luxury. The sad thing about that is that these countries are oil rich and the ordinary people should be living a comfortable life, instead most live in squalor.

Came across this while I was doing research on India today;

Indians did not suddenly become non-violent on September 30 in honour of Gandhi's birthday two days later. But they have, almost imperceptibly, turned anti-violence. The young are bewildered that their parents could have chosen chaos over construction, and acid over an economy. Their elders have abandoned nightmares from the past and joined a modern dream. The spirit of peace did not descend from leaders to the people, it rose from the street to the corridors of governance and justice. Politicians understood that if yesterday violence meant murder, today it means suicide.

The last time both Ayodhya and Kashmir were inflammatory was the period between 1990 and 1992: the fire across India was complemented by a rage for 'azadi' in the valley. We know what has changed in the Ayodhya confrontation. The poor have realised that poverty is not communal. They want the self-respect that comes with a full stomach; they have enough places to pray. This has dampened the politics of every form of communalism. But something has changed in the Kashmir scenario as well. The promise of Pakistan as the elixir and purist paradise for Muslims has collapsed for a second time. In 1971 it exploded and Bangladesh was born. By 2010 Pakistan has visibly imploded. Many more Muslims are dying of manufactured violence in Pakistan than in India.

citation: http://indiatoday.intoday.in/story/a-peace-of-land/1/114787.html

Islam, is it a culture or a religion? : Originally posted by ReepicheepAbu...

Wed, 25 Jul 2012 09:21:32 +0000

Author: Abu Loren
Subject: 23474
Posted: 25 July 2012 at 9:21am

Originally posted by Reepicheep

Abu Loren wrote: You've probably lived in the same community for those 53 years.

Nope. I've lived in three Canadian provinces, have lived in multiple cities and towns in those provinces, and have attended Christmas Eve church services at more than one church in some of those cities.

****************************

Abu Loren wrote: I know many many many many Christians who will only grace the footsteps of a church on Christmas Eve, after getting drunk and out of their minds.

Abu Loren wrote: I've seen many Christians getting drunk and attending church.

OK, let's establish exactly what you are claiming, so we can determine whether or not you are making false claims against Christians and therefore deserve to spend eternity in hell.

You seem to be making contradictory claims. Please clarify the following

(1) are you making this accusation against "many" Christians, or "many many many many" Christians?

(2) are you accusing these Christians of being merely "drunk", or "drunk and out of their minds"?

(3) did these incidents you claim to have witnessed all occur on Christmas Eve, or did they occur at other times of the year, too?

Even if one Christian gets drunk and goes to church is bad.

Islam, is it a culture or a religion? : Originally posted by Abu Loren Originally...

Wed, 25 Jul 2012 09:06:08 +0000

Author: Matt Browne
Subject: 23474
Posted: 25 July 2012 at 9:06am

Originally posted by Abu Loren

Originally posted by Matt Browne

Islam is a cultural, religious and political system.

Wrong. In what way is Islam cultural or political?

Try this

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_culture

and

"Political Islam is the creation of an Islamic State, which is elevated by using the legal guidance of the Sharia. It provides an Islamic system of governance for Muslims, as a legal and moral guide both in their private and public lives. Therefore, political Islam refers to Muslims and social movements who actively seek to implement Islam in the public as well as the private realm."

Islam, is it a culture or a religion? : Originally posted by Abu...

Tue, 24 Jul 2012 19:16:54 +0000

Author: Caringheart
Subject: 23474
Posted: 24 July 2012 at 7:16pm

Originally posted by Abu Loren

...
The sad thing about that is that these countries are oil rich and the ordinary people should be living a comfortable life, instead most live in squalor.

I agree. It is sad. Especially when you look at the Byzantine era.
Oil - was it a blessing from God, or a curse from somewhere else?
It should be a blessing.

afterthought:
If these are Islamic states, and they follow the rule of Islam... doesn't that raise the question of why do they have "tyrants who suppress the people"?
Didn't Muhammad teach differently and supposedly set a different example?

Edited by Caringheart - 24 July 2012 at 7:29pm

Islam, is it a culture or a religion? : Originally posted by Abu LorenI...

Tue, 24 Jul 2012 19:10:29 +0000

Author: Caringheart
Subject: 23474
Posted: 24 July 2012 at 7:10pm

Originally posted by Abu Loren

I used to be a Christian and I've seen many Christians getting drunk and attending church.

Just being realistic.

Culture vs religion
Culture or religion?

Islam, is it a culture or a religion? : Abu Loren wrote: You've probably...

Tue, 24 Jul 2012 16:54:59 +0000

Author: Reepicheep
Subject: 23474
Posted: 24 July 2012 at 4:54pm

Abu Loren wrote: You've probably lived in the same community for those 53 years.

****************************

Abu Loren wrote: I know many many many many Christians who will only grace the footsteps of a church on Christmas Eve, after getting drunk and out of their minds.

Abu Loren wrote: I've seen many Christians getting drunk and attending church.

OK, let's establish exactly what you are claiming, so we can determine whether or not you are making false claims against Christians and therefore deserve to spend eternity in hell.

You seem to be making contradictory claims. Please clarify the following

(1) are you making this accusation against "many" Christians, or "many many many many" Christians?

(2) are you accusing these Christians of being merely "drunk", or "drunk and out of their minds"?

(3) did these incidents you claim to have witnessed all occur on Christmas Eve, or did they occur at other times of the year, too?

Edited by Reepicheep - 24 July 2012 at 5:17pm

Islam, is it a culture or a religion? : Originally posted by Caringheart Originally...

Tue, 24 Jul 2012 16:38:46 +0000

Author: Abu Loren
Subject: 23474
Posted: 24 July 2012 at 4:38pm

Originally posted by Caringheart

Originally posted by Abu Loren

As'alaamu Alaikkum

... this can be said of all of the other faiths,...

To accuse the religion of Islam and whole of the Muslim community of such things is wrong.

I know many many many many Christians who will only grace the footsteps of a church on Christmas Eve, after getting drunk...

I agree with what you have said here. It can be said of all faiths, and I do not accuse the whole of the Muslim community, and did not mean to seem as if I did. I do not accuse anyone. I was just making a statement regarding the make up of the Islamic community. There are those who are there because they are religious and there are those who are there because they like the culture. I think people do not recognize the difference between belonging to the culture and belonging to the religion.

And I agree, those who call themselves Christians but do not live the life prescribed by God are deceiving themselves. They do not belong to God. On judgement day they will be told, "I never knew ye, because ye never knew Me, though you proclaimed My name".

I left off the 'out of their minds' bit because I have to say, when I see Muslims shooting off weapons in the streets in the mid-east, that is 'out of their minds' to me. In countries where the people do not have enough they waste money on ammunition? I did not care to own a weapon because of the cost... ammunition is not cheap, and not what is considered a necessity. I often wonder what might be accomplished, if overseas, they took all that money they pour into owning and firing weapons, into cultivating the land, building machinery and technology, irrigation systems and such. How might life be improved.
Anyway, I digress.

And thanks for sharing as regards sharia law. Still unclear on that one as the state law seems to come from the Qur'anic law, which still makes the religion of Islam political.

Thanks for your reply.
Caringheart

Islam, is it a culture or a religion? : Originally posted by ReepicheepAbu...

Tue, 24 Jul 2012 16:35:19 +0000

Author: Abu Loren
Subject: 23474
Posted: 24 July 2012 at 4:35pm

Originally posted by Reepicheep

Abu Loren wrote: I know many many many many Christians who will only grace the footsteps of a church on Christmas Eve, after getting drunk and out of their minds.

That's a very serious and very interesting claim for you to make. I'm 53 years old, and have attended Christmas Eve services every year of my life except once, and I have never, ever seen a drunk, out of their mind person in church on Christmas Eve.

Just to formalize what you are saying...

You are officially declaring, in the name of Allah the Compassionate, the Merciful, that you personally know "many many many many Christians" who get drunk on Christmas Eve and go to church both drunk and out of their minds. If you are lying in making this declaration and accusation, then you are guilty of blaspheming the name of Allah and you deserve to spend eternity in hell.

Tell me, Abu Loren, just how many Christians are in a "many many many many"? Do you personally know a thousand christians who go to church drunk on Christmas Eve? Ten thousand? A million? Since you claim to "know" these thousands of Christians, I assume you could, if you wished, provide us with a list of their names?

You've probably lived in the same community for those 53 years. I used to be a Christian and I've seen many Christians getting drunk and attending church.

Just being realistic.

Islam, is it a culture or a religion? : Originally posted by Abu...

Tue, 24 Jul 2012 12:21:24 +0000

Author: Caringheart
Subject: 23474
Posted: 24 July 2012 at 12:21pm

Originally posted by Abu Loren

As'alaamu Alaikkum

... this can be said of all of the other faiths,...

To accuse the religion of Islam and whole of the Muslim community of such things is wrong.

I know many many many many Christians who will only grace the footsteps of a church on Christmas Eve, after getting drunk...

Islam, is it a culture or a religion? : Abu Loren wrote: I know many many...

Tue, 24 Jul 2012 10:41:41 +0000

Author: Reepicheep
Subject: 23474
Posted: 24 July 2012 at 10:41am

Abu Loren wrote: I know many many many many Christians who will only grace the footsteps of a church on Christmas Eve, after getting drunk and out of their minds.

Just to formalize what you are saying...

Islam, is it a culture or a religion? : Originally posted by Caringheart Originally...

Mon, 23 Jul 2012 23:37:03 +0000

Author: Abu Loren
Subject: 23474
Posted: 23 July 2012 at 11:37pm

Originally posted by Caringheart

Originally posted by Abu Loren

Originally posted by Matt Browne

Islam is a cultural, religious and political system.

Wrong. In what way is Islam cultural or political?

Leaders who govern countries according to Sharia (or Islamic law) - political
Those who call themselves Muslim but do not know the religion - cultural

As'alaamu Alaikkum

There is not one country in the world or a leader who is ruling by Sharia law. There are seperate Sharia laws in the so called Muslim countries but it is mainly used for family settlements. So basically there are two laws being applied, the state law and Sharia law. This has absolutely nothing to do with religion apart from the fact that the Sharia law is taken from the Holy Qur'an. Sharia law does not rule the country.

I agree with the second part, there are many millions of Muslims who even do not know the basics of Islam. Then there are those who do not implement the five pillars of Islam, they are not Muslims. To put it simply, if a person do not pray five times a day then he has left the fold of Islam. There are also illiterate people who blend culture with religion but this can be said of all of the other faiths, this particularly happens in the Indian sub-continent.

To accuse the religion of Islam and whole of the Muslim community of such things is wrong.

I know many many many many Christians who will only grace the footsteps of a church on Christmas Eve, after getting drunk and out of their minds.

Islam, is it a culture or a religion? : Originally posted by Abu Loren Originally...

Mon, 23 Jul 2012 19:47:17 +0000

Author: Caringheart
Subject: 23474
Posted: 23 July 2012 at 7:47pm

Originally posted by Abu Loren

Originally posted by Matt Browne

Islam is a cultural, religious and political system.

Wrong. In what way is Islam cultural or political?

Leaders who govern countries according to Sharia (or Islamic law) - political
Those who call themselves Muslim but do not know the religion - cultural

Islam, is it a culture or a religion? : Originally posted by abjad Originally...

Mon, 23 Jul 2012 19:41:01 +0000

Author: Caringheart
Subject: 23474
Posted: 23 July 2012 at 7:41pm

Originally posted by abjad

Originally posted by Caringheart

As I am reading tonight I have some thoughts. I don't know how well to express them. (I am not at home on my own computer so not as easy to hold a thought )

So anyway, just so I don't forget altogether I thought I would at least post the question that is in my mind.

Islam, is it a culture or is it a religion? (or a regime?... I feel I have to ask that too)

But I do not think the religion and the culture are one and the same.

I see a great deal of confusion in the religion, though the culture is attractive.

And though the culture is attractive, because the religion is not clear, it can also be dangerous.

I don't know if that really says what I am trying to express, but I gave it a shot. I may add or change later.

But I would love any feedback.

Deen Islam.

a religion.

In red above, try to twist your mind and think to others parallel to your writings.

Are you taking about ISLAM or Muslims?

Greetings Abjad,

Is not the definition of a Muslim one who follows the religion of Islam?

This is what I am trying to define. Because being a Muslim seems to include a certain cultural way of life which is pleasing in many ways, but not in all the ways that the religion of Islam teaches.

Edited by Caringheart - 23 July 2012 at 7:44pm

Islam, is it a culture or a religion? : Originally posted by Matt BrowneIslam...

Mon, 23 Jul 2012 02:48:12 +0000

Author: Abu Loren
Subject: 23474
Posted: 23 July 2012 at 2:48am

Originally posted by Matt Browne

Islam is a cultural, religious and political system.

Wrong. In what way is Islam cultural or political?

Islam, is it a culture or a religion? : Islam is a cultural, religious...

Sun, 22 Jul 2012 04:04:05 +0000

Author: Matt Browne
Subject: 23474
Posted: 22 July 2012 at 4:04am

Islam is a cultural, religious and political system.

Islam, is it a culture or a religion? : Originally posted by Caringheart What...

Tue, 17 Jul 2012 23:44:45 +0000

Author: Abu Loren
Subject: 23474
Posted: 17 July 2012 at 11:44pm

Originally posted by Caringheart

What I find I can't deny are the prophesies... Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel
I can't deny the wisdom that is in the Bible. Every answer, to every thing, we ever needed to know, is in the Bible.(That's a quote from me, given to me by God.) I can't deny Jesus, and I can't deny the astounding conversion of Paul.
The ten commandments... who can deny them?
I can't deny that living God's way is best for mankind.

Indeed no true believer can deny the wisdom that is in the Bible, HOWEVER one has to weed out the additions and the downright blasphemy that is contained in the Bible.

Sahih International

Indeed, We sent down the Torah, in which was guidance and light. The prophets who submitted [to Allah ] judged by it for the Jews, as did the rabbis and scholars by that with which they were entrusted of the Scripture of Allah , and they were witnesses thereto. So do not fear the people but fear Me, and do not exchange My verses for a small price. And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed - then it is those who are the disbelievers. 5:44

Why do the rabbis and religious scholars not forbid them from saying what is sinful and devouring what is unlawful? How wretched is what they have been practicing. 5:63

They have taken their scholars and monks as lords besides Allah , and [also] the Messiah, the son of Mary. And they were not commanded except to worship one God; there is no deity except Him. Exalted is He above whatever they associate with Him. 9:31

Islam, is it a culture or a religion? : Originally posted by Caringheart @Abu...

Tue, 17 Jul 2012 23:32:09 +0000

Author: Abu Loren
Subject: 23474
Posted: 17 July 2012 at 11:32pm

Originally posted by Caringheart

@Abu Loren
You had also asked about contradiction in the Qur'an. I have not had time, nor energy, to apply myself properly to this, but as I was reading yesterday I did make this note. When I reread your post today I was reminded that you had asked.

Qur'an:8:39 "Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah."
Qur'an:8:39 "So fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief [non-Muslims]) and all submit to the religion of Allah alone (in the whole world)."

2:256"There is no compulsion in religion."

Also today as I was reading I made a note about this;
8:67 It is not for any prophet to have captives until he hath made slaughter in the land.
This is Muhammad who was the peaceful messenger?
Sincere regards,
Caringheart

As'alaamu Alaikkum

I refuse to entertain a person who has never read the Holy Qur'an. You pick and choose verses that suits you.

Qur'an:8:39 "Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah."
Qur'an:8:39 "So fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief [non-Muslims]) and all submit to the religion of Allah alone (in the whole world)."

The tasfir for the above states thus :-

And fight them until sedition, idolatry, is, exists, no more and religion is all for God, alone, none other being worshipped; then if they desist, from unbelief, surely God sees what they do, and will requite them for it.

The Prophet Muhammed was ordered to fight the idolators of Arabia so that the religion of Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala can be established. Fighting was ordained because idolators are condemned in this world and the next.

This is nothing compared to the fate of the people of Prophet Noah (pbuh) or the people of Prophet Lot (pbuh) and various other communities which God annihilated completely from the face of the Earth. If you want to compare violence ordained by God then the Bible wins and takes first place. God can destroy or bless whomever He wills because He is the Creator and will establish authority on this Earth.

Also today as I was reading I made a note about this;
8:67 It is not for any prophet to have captives until he hath made slaughter in the land.
This is Muhammad who was the peaceful messenger?

Tasfir

The following was revealed when they ransomed those taken captive at Badr: It is not for any Prophet to have (read as an takūna lahu or an yakūna lahu) prisoners until he has made slaughter in the land, going all the way in fighting disbelievers. You, O believers, desire the transient things of this world, its ephemeral gains, by ransoming, while God desires, for you, the Hereafter, that is, its reward, through your killing them; and God is Mighty, Wise: this was abrogated by His words [and set them free] afterward either with grace or by ransom

Verse 8:67 was revealed because most of the Muslims were more interested in war booty and the payments from the ransom of prisoners. What Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala is saying is that it is better for these polytheists to be killed than keeping them alive lest they return to idolotry. It was not a license for the Muslims to randonely slaughter their captives. The majority of the prisoners converted to Islam, untimately the whole of the Arabian Peninsula.

Prophet Muhammed (pbu) WAS a peaceful messenger, you are making statements without knowing who Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) really was. I suggest you read the Hadiths of the Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) and come back and make comments.

www.sunnah.com is an excellent resource.

regards

Edited by Abu Loren - 17 July 2012 at 11:33pm

Islam, is it a culture or a religion? : @Abu LorenYou had also asked...

Tue, 17 Jul 2012 15:50:44 +0000

Author: Caringheart
Subject: 23474
Posted: 17 July 2012 at 3:50pm

@Abu Loren
You had also asked about contradiction in the Qur'an. I have not had time, nor energy, to apply myself properly to this, but as I was reading yesterday I did make this note. When I reread your post today I was reminded that you had asked.

Qur'an:8:39 "Fight them until all opposition ends and all submit to Allah."
Qur'an:8:39 "So fight them until there is no more Fitnah (disbelief [non-Muslims]) and all submit to the religion of Allah alone (in the whole world)."

2:256"There is no compulsion in religion."

Also today as I was reading I made a note about this;
8:67 It is not for any prophet to have captives until he hath made slaughter in the land.
This is Muhammad who was the peaceful messenger?
Sincere regards,
Caringheart

Edited by Caringheart - 17 July 2012 at 4:09pm

Islam, is it a culture or a religion? : Originally posted by Abu...

Tue, 17 Jul 2012 15:11:42 +0000

Author: Caringheart
Subject: 23474
Posted: 17 July 2012 at 3:11pm

Originally posted by Abu Loren

Originally posted by Caringheart

Originally posted by Abu Loren

So you are saying that you lack faith?

Faith - it's a complicated thing, isn't it?
Shall I share with you my long answer?

If I shall, it will have to wait until Monday. I will be away from my desk until then.

I just took this from the quotes thread;
I know that I don't know anything. - Socrates

Faith is not a complicated thing. If you BELIEVE that there is a God and that He created us and that He gave us the instructions in how to live a life that is good according to His commands and that you believe that in Him and He will reward you after you have died and He has resurructed you then NO it is not complicated. Complication sets in when a person, a mere human being thinks to him/herself that they know more than the God that dreated him/her. Arrogant people will never believe because they think that there is only this life and when you die then that's the end. This belief in nothing ultimately gives them the freedom to live a life that they want to live.

There is no grey area in this, either you have faith and you believe or you don't. I suspect (forgive me for the assumption) that you do not have faith and that you are bordering on being an atheist. This is also fine as long as you know the consequences. Even if you don't believe then at least have this thought at the back of your mind that all sinners who do not repent will go to hell and burn forever.

Ok, so here's the long version. (My plans have been delayed)
First I offer greetings again.

Faith
It's complicated.
Let's just say I don't have blind faith.

Faith alone is not enough.
It is too easy to misplace faith... to put it in a wrong person.. too easy to be deceived, misled.
We must always be seeking Truth.

"Complication sets in when a person, a mere human being thinks to him/herself that they know more than the God that dreated him/her. "

We have many claiming to have heard from God but these men, these 'mere humans', have differing messages. So whose God? Which faith?

I don't believe in religion.
It's that sort of thing that causes wars.
The prophets taught.
Religion tries to control.
Jesus did not believe in religion. Jesus did not teach religion. He spoke against the establishment.

I absolutely have faith in God. I have known God ever since I was a young child.
Do I think man can be self serving? Misguided?
Ancient thinking and philosophy... every ancient civilization and tribe believed in its own god, and that when they were victorious in battle it was because their god went before them. They all fought in the name of their god or gods.

So is God a great mystery? Yes.
Do I know all? No.
Can I be sure that the Jewish tradition isn't made up stories?
What I find I can't deny are the prophesies... Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel
I can't deny the wisdom that is in the Bible. Every answer, to every thing, we ever needed to know, is in the Bible.(That's a quote from me, given to me by God.) I can't deny Jesus, and I can't deny the astounding conversion of Paul.
The ten commandments... who can deny them?
I can't deny that living God's way is best for mankind.

__________________________________________

Bar'chu et adonai Ham'vorach l'olam va'ed
Praised be Adonai, to whom our praise is due, now and forever!
~ blessed are You o Lord our God , eternity's Holy King ~

Edited by Caringheart - 17 July 2012 at 3:17pm

Islam, is it a culture or a religion? : Originally posted by Caringheart Originally...

Tue, 17 Jul 2012 02:59:08 +0000

Author: Abu Loren
Subject: 23474
Posted: 17 July 2012 at 2:59am

Originally posted by Caringheart

Originally posted by Abu Loren

So you are saying that you lack faith?

Faith - it's a complicated thing, isn't it?
Shall I share with you my long answer?

If I shall, it will have to wait until Monday. I will be away from my desk until then.

I just took this from the quotes thread;
I know that I don't know anything. - Socrates

Edited by Abu Loren - 17 July 2012 at 3:02am

Islam, is it a culture or a religion? : Originally posted by Abu Loren So...

Mon, 16 Jul 2012 16:20:40 +0000

Author: Caringheart
Subject: 23474
Posted: 16 July 2012 at 4:20pm

Originally posted by Abu Loren

So you are saying that you lack faith?

Faith - it's a complicated thing, isn't it?
Shall I share with you my long answer?

If I shall, it will have to wait until Monday. I will be away from my desk until then.

I just took this from the quotes thread;
I know that I don't know anything. - Socrates

Islam, is it a culture or a religion? : So you are saying that you...

Mon, 16 Jul 2012 00:04:53 +0000

Author: Abu Loren
Subject: 23474
Posted: 16 July 2012 at 12:04am

So you are saying that you lack faith?

Islam, is it a culture or a religion? : Originally posted by Abu LorenAs'alaamu...

Sun, 15 Jul 2012 20:59:40 +0000

Author: Caringheart
Subject: 23474
Posted: 15 July 2012 at 8:59pm

Originally posted by Abu Loren

As'alaamu Alaikkum
How can you be sure that when Moses (pbuh) came down from the mountain with the tablets of stone, he didn't write it?

Masalama

I only have time right now to answer this one thing;

"How can you be sure that when Moses (pbuh) came down from the mountain with the tablets of stone, he didn't write it? "

I can't be sure, and I have asked myself that question.

Islam, is it a culture or a religion? : Originally posted by nothingRamadhan...

Sun, 15 Jul 2012 18:01:59 +0000

Author: Caringheart
Subject: 23474
Posted: 15 July 2012 at 6:01pm

Originally posted by nothing

Ramadhan is coming and you will see muslims that hardly involve in anything Islam will surface here. Than in eidul fitri there will be more people that we hardly met, my friend refer them as yearly muslims.

Sounds like the Catholics. The ones that come out for Christmas and Easter.

Islam, is it a culture or a religion? : As'alaamu Alaikkum I'm...

Sun, 15 Jul 2012 10:49:45 +0000

Author: Abu Loren
Subject: 23474
Posted: 15 July 2012 at 10:49am

As'alaamu Alaikkum

I'm sorry that you have such an opinion of me. I have done a lot of research.

Have you read the Holy Qur'an? All 114 chapters?
You are accusing and insulting.

I think I do have a great understanding of Islam and what it stands for. I feel that I understand the culture of Islam quite well, but of course I am still and always learning. It is why I am here on these forums. It is the religion that I find problematic.

From what you have written so far about Islam and Muslims it seems to me that you don't even know the basics of Islam.

Regarding the passages you quote. These are things spoken by Muhammad as if by God, but we have no proof, or evidence, that these words are of God, only that Muhammad says so.

More insults. You think the Holy Qur'an is the work of one man that is Muhammed. I believe it is a revelations sent down to him by God Almighty through the Archangel Jibril (AS). There is not proof that the Torah and the Gospels are the work of God, are they the works and words of Moses and Jesus (peace be upon them )? How can you be sure that when Moses (pbuh) came down from the mountain with the tablets of stone, he didn't write it?

What I see is that Islam is following the same type of evolution that the Christian church has gone through. Just as in Christianity, which began in Catholicism (the universal church), when differences in thinking occurred, branches broke off, so I see that there is the same in Islam. While all are following the Word as they believe it to be revealed, they follow it in the way they understand it to be intended. In Islam it depends on which scriptures are made the main focus as there are many conflicting messages in the message of Muhammad.

List the conflicting messages that Muhammed (pbuh) has stated.

Muhammad's word itself, was always changing, according to circumstances. So I ask, how could it be given by God? It was never one law for all and for always. With Muhammad's teaching you sort of have to pick your place in time of what teaching you will follow. More of a culture thing than a religious thing. The difference we have in the two teachings is that the Word in the Biblical scriptures does not change, only the way the different people choose to understand them. This is a failing in the people, not the scriptures. In Islam both, the word of Muhammad changes, and the way the people choose to understand can be different.

I'm really confused by what you are trying to say here.

You see Islam as so different from Christianity or Judaism... I do not. I see us all trying to follow and live for God the best way that we know how. Many have gotten, and are lost, but God's Word told us this would be so... that 'the path, and the gate is narrow, and there are only few who find it'.

Islam IS so different from Judaism and Christianity. The Jews corrupted their scripture just like the Christians have mixed their with Roman paganism. Islam is a pure religion that is untainted because it is as it was revealed to the Prophet Muhammed. Nothing has been added and nothing has been taken away.

Masalama

Islam, is it a culture or a religion? : Originally posted by CaringheartIslam,...

Sat, 14 Jul 2012 18:34:52 +0000

Author: nothing
Subject: 23474
Posted: 14 July 2012 at 6:34pm

Originally posted by Caringheart

Islam, is it a culture or is it a religion? (or a regime?... I feel I have to ask that too)

Both. It is bond that binding different people and binding the family together. The muslim community has lower divorce rate in comparison to others.
The people in Islam too are different level, majority as layman muslims and some just born differently. Some obeying every writing without question and some analysing it. Some want to do everything in it and some only can do so much.

Ramadhan is coming and you will see muslims that hardly involve in anything Islam will surface here. Than in eidul fitri there will be more people that we hardly met, my friend refer them as yearly muslims.

Islam is also political force believe it or not. Regardless of what the opposition, it was and it is still politically active religion and will always will be. Some Muslims dislike politic and they say it is wrong to politicized Islam. But that would be unnatural. Beside for the disagreed there always different to advance Islam.

Edited by nothing - 14 July 2012 at 6:37pm

Islam, is it a culture or a religion? : Originally posted by Abu...

Sat, 14 Jul 2012 15:34:17 +0000

Author: Caringheart
Subject: 23474
Posted: 14 July 2012 at 3:34pm

Originally posted by Abu Loren

As'alaamu Alaikkum

Reading your threads and replies throughout this forum it is clear that you have a warped view if Islam and Muslims. In my honest opinion, a person like you will never ever understand Islam and what it stands for. You have your set ways with a Christian mentality.

Anyway, to answer this particular question, Islam is a religion that was sent down to mankind as a last chance for salvation. It is also a correct way of life that is to be lived in accordance with the divine laws that Allah Subhana Wa Ta'ala gave us. However, there are culture from different parts of the world seeping into the religion. For example, Muslim marriages are conducted more culturally than religiosly. There are also instances where culture and religion are blurred and can cross over between the two.

Sahih International

Indeed, the religion in the sight of Allah is Islam. And those who were given the Scripture did not differ except after knowledge had come to them - out of jealous animosity between themselves. And whoever disbelieves in the verses of Allah , then indeed, Allah is swift in [taking] account. 3:19

And whoever desires other than Islam as religion- never will it be accepted from him, and he, in the Hereafter, will be among the losers. 3:85

Indeed this, your religion, is one religion, and I am your Lord, so worship Me. 21:92

Greetings Abu-Loren,

I'm sorry that you have such an opinion of me. I have done a lot of research.
I think I do have a great understanding of Islam and what it stands for. I feel that I understand the culture of Islam quite well, but of course I am still and always learning. It is why I am here on these forums.
It is the religion that I find problematic.

You think I have a locked in view of what Islam is, and what Muslims are. I do not, or I would not be here on these forums asking the questions that I ask. I am seeking. I am exploring. All in the endeavor towards greater understanding for all. I have a many varied view of what Islam is, and what Muslims are, as I have the same view of all the world. It is a kaleidoscope, a many colored tapestry of people and ideas.

"a person like you will never ever understand Islam and what it stands for."

If you mean by this that I will never shut down, or close my mind, so that I have only one way of thinking, you are correct. I seek God's guidance into all things and I am open to all that is shared by different people everywhere.
If you mean, will I understand Islam to mean what you understand Islam to mean, you may be correct,
but I have found my conversations here quite interesting and helpful to understanding.

There are two people I have found on these forums, Nausheen and Dayem,that give very good, and helpful, explanations of Quran'ic scripture. Oftentimes it is in how we understand, or misunderstand the scriptures which we are reading.

Regarding the passages you quote.

These are things spoken by Muhammad as if by God, but we have no proof, or evidence, that these words are of God, only that Muhammad says so.

Only through discussions with people of the faith of Islam can I learn, and what I am finding is that the people of the faith of Islam... just like any other people, just as in any other religion or culture... are many varied in what they know, what they believe, and in how they conduct themselves.

This is why the question religion or culture?

What I see is that Islam is following the same type of evolution that the Christian church has gone through.
Just as in Christianity, which began in Catholicism (the universal church), when differences in thinking occurred, branches broke off, so I see that there is the same in Islam. While all are following the Word as they believe it to be revealed, they follow it in the way they understand it to be intended.
In Islam it depends on which scriptures are made the main focus as there are many conflicting messages in the message of Muhammad.
I could say the same about Christianity... some believe in focusing on the message of grace only, others understand the full Word of God which says that "without works, faith is dead"(read James chapter 2, whole chapter).
Some understand that we are instructed to "be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only".
Jesus says, "Think not that I come to destroy the Law. or the Prophets. I am come not to destroy them. but to fulfill them".
Christianity teaches by the writings of the several men inspired of God.

Muhammad's word itself, was always changing, according to circumstances. So I ask, how could it be given by God? It was never one law for all and for always. With Muhammad's teaching you sort of have to pick your place in time of what teaching you will follow. More of a culture thing than a religious thing.
The difference we have in the two teachings is that the Word in the Biblical scriptures does not change, only the way the different people choose to understand them. This is a failing in the people, not the scriptures. In Islam both, the word of Muhammad changes, and the way the people choose to understand can be different.

What I see is that Islam... just like Christianity, just like Judaism, just like any religion... is many varied.
I see many choosing to not admit the truth and remain blind to certain facts of the history of Islam, while Christianity has long ago admitted its distasteful, repugnant, often shameful, and regretful history. We are only humans after all trying our best to follow God. We are far from perfected. "To err is human, to forgive is divine", just came to mind. If we were perfected we would already be in heaven.
I also see that there are those who have 'kept what is good, and left off what is not good', in following the faith, and that is Godly.

You see Islam as so different from Christianity or Judaism... I do not. I see us all trying to follow and live for God the best way that we know how. Many have gotten, and are lost, but God's Word told us this would be so... that 'the path, and the gate is narrow, and there are only few who find it'.

May peace be on your day.

Edited by Caringheart - 14 July 2012 at 5:14pm

Islam, is it a culture or a religion? : As'alaamu AlaikkumReading...

Sat, 14 Jul 2012 01:17:53 +0000

Author: Abu Loren
Subject: 23474
Posted: 14 July 2012 at 1:17am

As'alaamu Alaikkum

Sahih International

And whoever desires other than Islam as religion- never will it be accepted from him, and he, in the Hereafter, will be among the losers. 3:85

Indeed this, your religion, is one religion, and I am your Lord, so worship Me. 21:92

Islam, is it a culture or a religion? : Originally posted by Caringheart AsI...

Fri, 13 Jul 2012 20:01:39 +0000

Author: abjad
Subject: 23474
Posted: 13 July 2012 at 8:01pm

Originally posted by Caringheart

As I am reading tonight I have some thoughts. I don't know how well to express them. (I am not at home on my own computer so not as easy to hold a thought )

So anyway, just so I don't forget altogether I thought I would at least post the question that is in my mind.

Islam, is it a culture or is it a religion? (or a regime?... I feel I have to ask that too)

But I do not think the religion and the culture are one and the same.

I see a great deal of confusion in the religion, though the culture is attractive.

And though the culture is attractive, because the religion is not clear, it can also be dangerous.

I don't know if that really says what I am trying to express, but I gave it a shot. I may add or change later.

But I would love any feedback.

Deen Islam.

a religion.

In red above, try to twist your mind and think to others parallel to your writings.

Are you taking about ISLAM or Muslims?

Islam, is it a culture or a religion? : AsI am reading tonight I have...

Fri, 13 Jul 2012 18:52:07 +0000

Author: Caringheart
Subject: 23474
Posted: 13 July 2012 at 6:52pm

As I am reading tonight I have some thoughts. I don't know how well to express them. (I am not at home on my own computer so not as easy to hold a thought )

So anyway, just so I don't forget altogether I thought I would at least post the question that is in my mind.

Islam, is it a culture or is it a religion? (or a regime?... I feel I have to ask that too)

But I do not think the religion and the culture are one and the same.

I see a great deal of confusion in the religion, though the culture is attractive.

And though the culture is attractive, because the religion is not clear, it can also be dangerous.

I don't know if that really says what I am trying to express, but I gave it a shot. I may add or change later.

But I would love any feedback.