IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : CRUCIFIED OR CRUCIPLAYED

CRUCIFIED OR CRUCIPLAYED : Originally posted by...

Tue, 16 Apr 2013 19:55:40 +0000

Author: Rational
Subject: 22951
Posted: 16 April 2013 at 7:55pm

Originally posted by Kish

In fact, mostly all your comparisons of Muhammad deals with a BLOOD thirsty, harsh arrogant leader who abused his power unlike Moses and of course Jesus!

I also vote that this user must be banned immediately. This is not the first time he displays his hatred nor do I think it's his last.

Edited by Rational - 16 April 2013 at 8:08pm

CRUCIFIED OR CRUCIPLAYED : Originally posted by Kish In...

Mon, 15 Apr 2013 22:21:54 +0000

Author: Rahman Shaik
Subject: 22951
Posted: 15 April 2013 at 10:21pm

Originally posted by Kish

In fact, mostly all your comparisons of Muhammad deals with a BLOOD thirsty, harsh arrogant leader who abused his power unlike Moses and of course Jesus!

Kish, This is un-acceptable. You are abusing a prophet (PBUH) while we are respecting all Prophets (May Peace Be Upon them)

This is the true difference between us and you. There is no point in arguing with a person like you who has no sense of respect for other's religion and prophets. What happened to your personal feelings, sciputural support argument here?

To the forum moderators,

How can this abusive language against the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) be allowed? I request you to ban this person's posts.

CRUCIFIED OR CRUCIPLAYED : Kish, was Jesus (peace be upton...

Mon, 15 Apr 2013 14:24:50 +0000

Author: Rational
Subject: 22951
Posted: 15 April 2013 at 2:24pm

Kish, was Jesus (peace be upton him) crucified? And if so, why?

Edited by Rational - 15 April 2013 at 2:25pm

CRUCIFIED OR CRUCIPLAYED : <> <> ...

Mon, 15 Apr 2013 08:34:32 +0000

Author: Kish
Subject: 22951
Posted: 15 April 2013 at 8:34am

Originally posted by Rahman Shaik

Thusthe Father-Son relationships in Holy Scriptures are mentioned in a totallydifferent context � emotional, affectional and spiritual sense only.

When Jesus died, there was aviolent earthquake, and the Roman army officer in charge of the execution wasmoved to say: �Certainly this was God�s Son.� (Matt. 27:54)

Was this also taken out of context in which you wish to believe? ARoman army officer and an enemy of Christians even knew Jesus was God�s son.

But, Muslims who supposedly submit to God/Allah do not want toaccept this teaching of their own Prophet.

You are mistakenly wrong! The God of the Holy Scriptures IS NOTthe same god of the Quran. Why? Because the God of the Bible has an �onlybegotten son� Jesus in whom the Jews impaled and whom Islam rejects.

So, God sees those who call themselves Jews, Muslims or anyone whodenies Jesus as the �son of God� as all thesame. They MUST accept Jesus Christ as their savior in order to be forgiving of blaspheme and of their sins. And that�s just for starters.

John 14:6 ⁶Jesus said to him: �I am the way and the truth and the life. Noone comes to the Father except through me.⁷I

CRUCIFIED OR CRUCIPLAYED : Hi, Okay, I am wrong. Mr Pickthall...

Mon, 15 Apr 2013 05:57:17 +0000

Author: Placid
Subject: 22951
Posted: 15 April 2013 at 5:57am

Hi,

Okay, I am wrong. Mr Pickthall says that there is no equivelent word in the English language for Allah.

Because I don't understand Arabic, I rely on the scholars that do, and in quranbrowser.com there are ten English translations of the Quran, and six of the ten use God in the place of Allah,

So it is well understood that The Supreme Being that is Allah in Arabic (with emphasis on Lah), is translated as God, who is the Supreme Beings to Christians.

CRUCIFIED OR CRUCIPLAYED : <> <> ...

Sat, 13 Apr 2013 15:10:46 +0000

Author: Kish
Subject: 22951
Posted: 13 April 2013 at 3:10pm

Originally posted by Rahman Shaik

It makes me feelmiserable how can this small concept of Father and Son cause so much confusion?

That is why it is good to keep emotions, opinionsand allegations out of religion and deal with solid historical and scriptural facts.

Originally posted by Rahman Shaik

Can�t you understandGod is calling his loved slaves or Prophets affectionately as Sons?

Okay true, so where does your god allah callhis loved slaves and prophets affectionately as sons? What Sura?

Originally posted by Rahman Shaik

Jesus (PBUH) is notthe only one called Son.

However, he is God�s [YHWH] only Begottenson.

John 1: 2, 3 This one was in [the] beginning with God. ³ Allthings came into existence through him, and apart from him not even one thingcame into existence.

Who was God referring to here Rahman, please tell? It was Jesus,his life did not begin on the earth. Jesus had a pre-human existence in heavenas Jesus himself admitted to the Romans. His life was transferred from heavento the earth and holy spirit impregnated Mary. With God, all things arepossible.

John 6:38 because I (Jesus) have come down from heaven to do, notmy will, but the will of him that sent me.

John 1:14 So the Word became flesh and residedamong us, and we had a view of his glory, a glory such as belongs to an Only-begottenson from a father; and he was full of undeserved kindness and truth.

John 3: 18 He that exercises faith in him is notto be judged. He that does not exercise faith has been judged already, becausehe has not exercised faith in the name of the Only-begotten Son of God.

The early Judeo and Gentile Christians as well as his earlyfollowers then and now accepted it which is all that really matters. Why?Because this is what Jesus taught them to believe! This is what the angelGabriel told Mary and Joseph. Jesus called Mary his mother. If Islam choose notto believe, it�s a choice you have to live with I guess. It still doesn�tchange the fact!

Originally posted by Rahman Shaik

Father, son, wife �these are human relationships�.Son is the one who is born of your Sperm, Jeans, blood etc�Do you imply Jesus is born of these elements of God?

Of course not however, Jesus was made flesh. Yet you continue touse the term bio-logical. What�s up with that? You are the one lookingat it in human terms. Even animals can produce and pass on life, why cannot Godwho is the creator of LIFE?

Nonetheless, this is what the Gospel and or the New Testament teachesand billions know it to be true.

Here is where the Quran quotes from the Gospel of Luke. . .

Luke1: 26-33 ²⁶In her sixth month the angel Ga′bri‧el was sent forth from God to acity of Gal′i‧lee named Naz′a‧reth,²⁷to a virgin promised in marriage to a man named Joseph of David�shouse; and the name of the virgin was Mary.²⁸Andwhen he went in before her he said: �Good day, highly favored one, Jehovah iswith you.�²⁹But she was deeply disturbed at the saying and began to reason outwhat sort of greeting this might be.³⁰Sothe angel said to her: �Have no fear, Mary, for you have found favor with God;³¹and,look! you will conceive in your womb and give birth to a son, and you are tocall his name Jesus.³²This one will be great and will be called Son of the Most High;and Jehovah God will give him the throne of David his father,³³andhe will rule as king over the house of Jacob forever, and there will be no endof his kingdom.�

This does not sound like any emotional, affectionate context here unlessone is in a state of denial.

Colossians 1: 15, 16 He (Jesus) is the image of theinvisible God, the firstborn of all creation; ¹⁶ becauseby means of him all [other] things were created in the heavens and upon theearth, the things visible and the things invisible, no matter whether they arethrones or lordships or governments or authorities. All [other] things havebeen created through him and for him.

So, not only is Jesus the First Born of ALL creation, we learn inthe NT that Jesus is the ONLY Begotten Son of God, a position NO othercreation of God holds in the heaven and on the earth.

CRUCIFIED OR CRUCIPLAYED : Originally posted...

Fri, 12 Apr 2013 13:58:33 +0000

Author: Rational
Subject: 22951
Posted: 12 April 2013 at 1:58pm

Originally posted by Placid

Following the pattern of Al-Islam, meaning �The Surrender,� --- and Al-Madinah, meaning �The City�
I have accepted that Al-Lah means, �The God,� --- �The Only God.�
And other Muslim translators use �God,� without the article, �The,� --- so it refers to �Almighty God,� --- the �Supreme Being,� our �One God,� --- does it not?

Assalamo alaikom,

You are completely wrong here placid. It's unacceptable to make claims without having any knowledge in the matter and misleading others. The name of our Creator is Allah (subhanaho wata'ala). There is no 'Al' or 'lah'. It is one word, Allah. You should ask before making such false claims. I agree with everything that brother Shaik said (jazzak Allah khairun brother shaik). Allah's name has no meaning as far as we know. There is no "the" or "god" in His name almighty. Allah's name does not belong to a language as far as we know, it does not have a translation as far as we know.

Allah knows best.

Edited by Rational - 12 April 2013 at 2:14pm

CRUCIFIED OR CRUCIPLAYED : Originally posted by PlacidHi...

Thu, 11 Apr 2013 05:29:46 +0000

Author: Rahman Shaik
Subject: 22951
Posted: 11 April 2013 at 5:29am

Originally posted by Placid

Hi Rahman,

First I want to comment on the name Allah, --- I have seen it written Al-Lah, and in Mr Pickthall�s translation he says this:

Quote: --- Translators note: I have retained the word Allah throughout because there is no corresponding word in English. The word Allah (the stress is on the last syllable) has neither feminine nor plural, and has never been applied to anything other than the unimaginable Supreme Being. --- End of quote.
--- I understand �The Supreme Being� to be �Almighty God,� or �The God,� --- �The One God,� --- �The Only God.�

Following the pattern of Al-Islam, meaning �The Surrender,� --- and Al-Madinah, meaning �The City�
I have accepted that Al-Lah means, �The God,� --- �The Only God.�
And other Muslim translators use �God,� without the article, �The,� --- so it refers to �Almighty God,� --- the �Supreme Being,� our �One God,� --- does it not?

Hi Placid., You got this completely wrong !

It will be written Al-Lah .. for teaching you how to pronounce it but Allah is not Al-Lah for building the meaning (Similary your name will be written Plac-id .. have you tried that?)

As I clarified earlier, Allah is not made of two words. Its a single word. There is no translation for it in to any language., it has to be translated as just "Allah" and nothing else. Translating it as God is also wrong.

Your quote above (Translators note) also says the same - did you not read it? Does it not say clearly what I am saying above? You contradicted yourself by assuming it as Al+Lah. Lah does not mean God, Lah is not an arabic word and it has no meaning. So rest of your explanation is wrong. People have misconception that Allah means Al+Ilaah .. I know about this misconception but first time I have seen there is another misconception that Allah is Al+Lah.

Let me repeat it - Allah is the name of our creator, the supreme Almighty. Not only in Quran but in previous Holy Scriptures also. Jesus (PBUH) called him Allah and so did Moses (PBUH).

Also, please check this -> http://www.peshitta.org/lexicon

Its Aramaic online dictionary (Aramaic not Arabic)., type God here and see what comes up! and Jesus (PBUH) spoke Aramaic.

CRUCIFIED OR CRUCIPLAYED : Hi Rahman, First I want to comment...

Tue, 09 Apr 2013 17:04:58 +0000

Author: Placid
Subject: 22951
Posted: 09 April 2013 at 5:04pm

Hi Rahman,

First I want to comment on the name Allah, --- I have seen it written Al-Lah, and in Mr Pickthall�s translation he says this:

Quote: --- Translators note: I have retained the word Allah throughout because there is no corresponding word in English. The word Allah (the stress is on the last syllable) has neither feminine nor plural, and has never been applied to anything other than the unimaginable Supreme Being. --- End of quote.
--- I understand �The Supreme Being� to be �Almighty God,� or �The God,� --- �The One God,� --- �The Only God.�

Following the pattern of Al-Islam, meaning �The Surrender,� --- and Al-Madinah, meaning �The City�
I have accepted that Al-Lah means, �The God,� --- �The Only God.�
And other Muslim translators use �God,� without the article, �The,� --- so it refers to �Almighty God,� --- the �Supreme Being,� our �One God,� --- does it not?

Quote: A basic study suggests that Pentecost incident is a means of Anti-Islamic forces to divert the attention away from Muhammad (PBUH) who is pointed towards in Bible by Jesus (PBUH).

Response: --- I see you are having trouble understanding the Holy Spirit, who is neither Gabriel nor Muhammad, --- but God�s Holy Spirit who was �IN� Jesus, and then poured out on the Day of Pentecost, as God promised. ---

Jesus said this in John 14:
15 �If you love Me, keep My commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper (Comforter), that He may abide with you forever�
17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.
--- The Holy Spirit dwelt with them in the Person of Jesus, --- and would be IN THEM on the Day of Pentecost. --- From thereon, they would do the same works that Jesus did on earth.

Quote: Joel�s prophecy: �God says: In the last days I will pour out my Spirit on all people.
Your sons and daughters will prophesy.
Your young men will see visions. Your old men will have special dreams.
In those days I will pour out my Spirit on my servants, men and women, and they will prophesy.

--- Beginning with the New Covenant, these are the �Last Days.� --- From the time the Holy Spirit was given to whoever was willing and worthy to receive it, they have been enlightened by the indwelling Holy Spirit, and the Gifts of the Holy Spirit, --- like Prophetic preaching will continue till Christ returns.
--- This latter part of Joel�s prophecy is yet to come, (as Jesus also repeated it):
Acts 2:19-21, I will work wonders in the sky above. I will cause miraculous signs on the earth below.
There will be blood, fire, and thick smoke.
The sun will be changed into darkness, and the moon will be as red as blood.
Then the great and glorious day of the Lord will come. And everyone who trusts in the Lord will be saved.�

Now notice this in Matthew 24:
14 And this Gospel of the kingdom will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come.
15 �Therefore when you see the �abomination of desolation,� spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place� (whoever reads, let him understand).
21 For then there will be great tribulation, such as has not been since the beginning of the world until this time, no, nor ever shall be.
22 And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect�s sake those days will be shortened.

Luke 21:10 Then He said to them, �Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom.
11 And there will be great earthquakes in various places, and famines and pestilences; and there will be fearful sights and great signs from heaven.
25 �And there will be signs in the sun, in the moon, and in the stars; and on the earth distress of nations, with perplexity, �the sea and the waves roaring.� --- (This prophetically refers to the unrest of the nations. --- �the sea� refers to mankind, --- and the �waves roaring� refers to the raging of nations against one another.) --- These are the days we are in, are they not?

Matthew 24:29 �Immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; the stars will fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken.
30 Then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And He will send His angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they will gather together His elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

--- I will continue later with �The Comforter.� But this is enough for a studious person like yourself to examine first.

Placid

CRUCIFIED OR CRUCIPLAYED : Originally posted by PlacidI...

Tue, 09 Apr 2013 08:19:19 +0000

Author: Rahman Shaik
Subject: 22951
Posted: 09 April 2013 at 8:19am

Originally posted by Placid

I don�t see contradictions between the revelations given to Muhammad and the former Scriptures.
I have high regard for Muhammad as the prophet who God used to destroy idolatry in Arabia, and bring the people back the worship of God.

Placid

Glad to see the way you respect Quran and Prophet Muhammad (PBUH)., I just want to clarify Muhammad (PBUH) is not just a prophet for Arabs. He is a Prophet for entire humanity and the message of Quran is for entire humanity. If you read Quran, it will be clear.

May Almighty guide you to his True path and religion... Amen.

CRUCIFIED OR CRUCIPLAYED : Originally posted by Placid---...

Tue, 09 Apr 2013 08:10:44 +0000

Author: Rahman Shaik
Subject: 22951
Posted: 09 April 2013 at 8:10am

Originally posted by Placid

--- This is why the Mission of Jesus was fulfilled following the Day of Pentecost.

Placid

I cant agree that Pentecost is ful-fillment of Mission for Jesus (PBUH). Infact Jesus (PBUH) declared his mission is over before his departure.

......I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do... [John 17:4]

CRUCIFIED OR CRUCIPLAYED : Originally posted by PlacidHi...

Sun, 07 Apr 2013 14:02:58 +0000

Author: Rahman Shaik
Subject: 22951
Posted: 07 April 2013 at 2:02pm

Originally posted by Placid

Hi Rahman,

--- But what you call �an isolated incident� --- the Day of Pentecost, was the launching of the Gospel going into all the world, as Jesus had said. --- Notice how PUBLIC this was in Acts 2:
1 When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting.
3 Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
The Crowd�s Response
5 And there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven.
6 And when this sound occurred, the multitude came together, and were confused, because everyone heard them speak in his own language.
7 Then they were all amazed and marveled, saying to one another, �Look, are not all these who speak Galileans?
8 And how is it that we hear, each in our own language in which we were born?
9 Parthians and Medes and Elamites, those dwelling in Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia,
10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya adjoining Cyrene, visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes,
11 Cretans and Arabs�we hear them speaking in our own tongues the wonderful works of God.�
12 So they were all amazed and perplexed, saying to one another, �Whatever could this mean?�

The Celebration of the Day of Pentecost was as important to the Jews as the Pilgrimage is to Muslims. --- In fact this is what the Bible Dictionary says:
Quote: The combined feast of Passover and Unleavened bread was one of the three feasts the Mosaic law enjoined to be attended by all male Jews who were physically able and ceremonially clean. The other two were �The Feast of Weeks, or Pentecost, and the Feast of Tabernacles. These were known as the pilgrimage festivals, and on all of them special sacrifices were offered. --- End of quote.

This was why there were great crowds living temporarily in Jerusalem and were amazed at this outpouring of the Holy Spirit on men.

Placid

A basic study suggests that Pentecost incident is a means ofAnti-Islamic forces to divert the attention away from Muhammad (PBUH) who ispointed towards in Bible by Jesus (PBUH). This incident was given undue importance tosuggest that the promise of another comforter is fulfilled with this incidentitself. To justify this, its told that Peter said:

�Jesus was lifted upto heaven. Now he is with God, at God�s right side. The Father has given theHoly Spirit to him, as he promised. So Jesus has now poured out that Spirit.This is what you see and hear.� [Acts 2:33]

But what they fail to see is this:

Then Peter stood upwith the other eleven apostles. He spoke loudly so that all the people couldhear. He said, �My Jewish brothers and all of you who live in Jerusalem, listento me. I will tell you something you need to know. Listen carefully. These menare not drunk as you think; it�s only nine o�clock in the morning. But Joel theprophet wrote about what you see happening here today. This is what he wrote:

�God says: In the last days I will pour out mySpirit on all people.

Your sons and daughters will prophesy.

Your young men will see visions. Your oldmen will have special dreams.

In those days I will pour out my Spirit onmy servants, men and women, and they will prophesy.

I will work wonders in the sky above. I willcause miraculous signs on the earth below.

There will be blood, fire, and thick smoke.

The sun will be changed into darkness, andthe moon will be as red as blood.

Then the great and glorious day of the Lordwill come. And everyone who trusts in the Lord will be saved.�

[Acts 2:14-22]

So is Pentecost a fulfilment of Jesus�s Prophecy or Joel�s Prophecy? Contradiction! andthis is ascribed to Peter! There is more �

- During the Pentecost incident, when all were ina trance and shaking, how could Peter alone was un-effected and mentioned theabove words? Did holy-spirit not envelop him correctly or completely?

Clearly this incident is used to divert away attention aboutAnother Comforter. What I can see in this incident are not any wonders ofholy-spirit but clear manifestation of contradictions. Even if you take it asJoel�s prophecy, notice the below points �

- If you read Joel�s prophecy, you can easily makeout that it�s talking about the last day or apocalypse. On the day of Pentecosthowever, just a strong wind came and the room where apostles were sitting wasenveloped with a sound.

- Then divided tongues of fire appeared .. Whathappened to holy-spirit my dear? The holy-spirit that appeared like a dove withJesus (PBUH) changed to a fiery fire?

- As per Joel�s prophecy � the spirit has to bepoured on to all people.. but here its effecting only a few people.

- What about the visions of young men and dreamsof old men? No such things seem to have happened

- What about signs on the sky and blood? No suchthing happened.

- �sun will be changed into darkness, and the moonwill be as red as blood� .. where did it all happen on the day of Pentecost?

What you need tounderstand from the prophecy of Comforter from Jesus (PBUH)�s words is that thecomforter is coming for fulfilling a wider mission than this:

- To teach everythingand remind everything that Jesus(PBUH)�s has taught [John 14:26]

- To Leadus in to All Truth [John 16:13]

- To prove about sin, righteousness and judgement[John 16:8-12]

- To speaknot his own words but speak what he hears and tell us what is to come [John16:13]

The above tasks are something a Prophet only can deliver wholives among the people. These are not something that can be done with anincident like Pentecost. Do you see any link between that incident of tonguesof fire and above tasks? Can you still justify Pentecost as something equal to pilgrimage?

CRUCIFIED OR CRUCIPLAYED : Originally posted by PlacidHi...

Sun, 07 Apr 2013 14:00:19 +0000

Author: Rahman Shaik
Subject: 22951
Posted: 07 April 2013 at 2:00pm

Originally posted by Placid

Hi Rahman,

--- It is stated plainly in John 14:
16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever�

Another Comforter =Muhammad (PBUH)

�I have told you all these things while I amwith you. But the Comforter will teach you everything and cause you to remember allthat I told you. This Comforter isthe Holy Spirit that the Father will send in my name.� [John 14:25-28]

It is argued from the above that the Comforter is the HolySpirit.. the same one that was coming to earlier prophets and Jesus (Peace Beupon them all) in the form of a dove. Let us see if this argument has any strengthto stand:

Notice the following �

�And I will pray theFather, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you forever� .. [John 14:16]

Before analysing who exactly is this �Comforter�, What youneed to understand is that in the original scripts, comforter or holyspirit arealso referred to as �Advocate�

And an important point is that Jesus (PBUH) himself isreferred to as an �Advocate�

And if any man sin, wehave an advocate with the Father,Jesus Christ the righteous [1 John 2:1]

So Jesus is also advocate or comforter. Can we also call himholyspirit? In that case what about the holyspirit that was coming to Jesus(PBUH) in the form of dove? So this means the holyspirit that is being referredhere in the place of Comforter and the Holyspirit that is coming to Jesus(PBUH) in the form of dove must be different.

Ok, let us go further, have a look at that prophecy ofComforter again:

�And I will pray theFather, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you forever� .. [John 14:16]

Another comforter .. means another one like Jesus (PBUH) �so this is not referring to holyspirit here.

Can we say Anotherholyspirit?

If we were to believe that Comforter is equal to holyspirit,Another comforter has to be Another holyspirit? Wait .. how many holyspirits do we have? I suppose it has to be onlyOne.

Now there arediversities of gifts, but the same Spirit....[1 Corinthians 12:4]

So this simple analysis proves that Comforter is not the sameas holyspirit. Otherwise Trinity is going to become Squarity (with One father,One Son and two Holy spirits)

�Nothing in me�proves Comforter is not holyspirit

.....and he hathnothing in me [John 14:30]

If comforter is really relating to Holyspirit, then whyJesus (PBUH) says nothing in me.. Just think! Clearly thus comforter is not referringto holyspirit but to another Prophet who is not related to Jesus (Peace be uponthem)

Conditions for comforteralso prove he is not holyspirit

Nevertheless I tellyou the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away,the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him untoyou. [ John 16:7-8]

So if we were to think that comforter is holyspirit, thenwhy Jesus(PBUH) is saying he has to leave for holyspirit to come? Holyspiritwas already there with Jesus (PUBH) in the form of dove no? Again clearly thisproves comforter is not referring to holyspirit.

Also holyspirit came many times even before Jesus (PBUH),then logically there is no meaning giving prophecy about its coming ifcomforter is referring to holyspirit. Clearly comforter is pointing to aProphet (PBUH)

So comforter is not holyspirit but holyspirit will helpcomforter .. Only this conclusion makes logical sense as comforter is describedas someone who not speaks on his own but speaks what he hears.. hears fromwhom? From holyspirit.

Also see this -> http://www.mostmerciful.com/paraclete.htm

Edited by Rahman Shaik - 07 April 2013 at 2:17pm

CRUCIFIED OR CRUCIPLAYED : Originally posted by Kish However,...

Sun, 07 Apr 2013 12:51:15 +0000

Author: Rahman Shaik
Subject: 22951
Posted: 07 April 2013 at 12:51pm

Originally posted by Kish

However, The Holy Scriptures is veryclear that Muhammad is NOT a prophet sent from the God of Abraham, Isaac andJacob in which monotheism was practiced.

Deut.18:18-20: �A prophet I shall raise up for them from the midst of theirbrothers, like you [like Moses]; and I shall indeed put my words in his mouth,and he will certainly speak to them all that I shall command him. And it mustoccur that the man who will not listen to my words that he will speak in myname, I shall myself require an account from him. However, the prophet whopresumes to speak in my name a word that I have not commanded him to speak orwho speaks in the name of other gods, that prophet must die.�

May Peace be Upon the Prophets mentioned below-

Moses Killed an Egyptian, who being close to Pharaoh was antagonistic to the preaching of Moses. The significance of this is that Moses thought it fit to subdue anyone who created problems in his religious mission. On the other hand Jesus never subdued any of his religious adversaries. On the contrary, he himself was sent to the cross by those who opposed his mission.

The people of Moses were Idol worshippers when he became a Prophet and a Messenger. But the people of Jesus were not Idol worshippers when he became a Prophet.

Moses defeated his enemies and became victorious over them during his life-time. Jesus failed to do so. He was defeated by his enemies and was crucified.

Moses was not betrayed by his followers. But one of the disciples of Jesus betrayed him and brought him grief

Moses was born of a father and a mother and had a wife and children. Jesus was born without a father and had no wife and no children.

Moses delivered his people from the tyranny of Pharaoh and migrated from Egypt to another land. Jesus on the other hand could not deliver his people from the domination of the Romans and did not emigrate to another land.

Moses commanded his followers to recapture Palestine, which they did. Jesus never asked his followers to get engaged in a fight.

Moses received a new law from God. His law is known as Leviticus. Jesus did not prescribe any new law. He has said it clearly, as recorded in Matthew (5:17): �Think not that I have come to abolish the law or the prophets; I am not come to abolish them, but to fulfil them�

The entire nation of the children of Israel had accepted Moses as their leader and a Messenger of God. Jesus, on the other hand, was rejected by most of his people. Only a handful of 12 people accepted him. And even out of this small number, one eventually betrayed him and got him arrested by the enemy. This proves that even his followers did not pay him enough respect.

Moses lived a long life and had a natural death. Jesus lived a short life and died unnaturally on the cross.

After Moses demise, his nominated successor extended his rule over Palestine and Syria. No such event took place in the life of Jesus.

The above argumentsclearly prove that the Prophet who is foretold by Moses had no resemblance with Jesus.In reality, Jesus was just theopposite of every case.

Now, the thingto consider is whether Muhammadresembled Moses in any manner, thatis, how much of the above arguments apply to Muhammad.

Like Moses, Muhammad did fight to subdue the forces who were opposed to his mission.

Before their birth, the people of both Moses and Muhammad had fallen into worshipping idols.

Like Moses, Muhammad also defeated his enemies and became victorious over them.

Like Moses, no disciple of Muhammad was successful in betraying him.

Like Moses, Muhammad was born of a father and a mother and had wives and children

Moses delivered his people from the tyranny of Pharaoh and the Egyptians. Muhammad also emancipated his followers from the persecution of the Quraysh.

With the instructions of Moses, his successors sent forces to capture Palestine and Syria. Muhammad also left instructions to his successors, and during the rule of Umar, forces were sent to capture Palestine and Syria

Both Moses and Muhammad received a new set of laws from God

Both Moses and Muhammad were accepted as leaders by their people.

Both Moses and Muhammad had a family life and completed their earthly life with a natural death.

Moses along with his followers had to leave his place of birth and migrate to another land. Muhammad too had to leave his birth-place Makka and migrate to Madina with his disciples.

Both Moses and Muhammad commanded their disciples to fight their enemies and joined the fights themselves.

These argumentsprove beyond any doubt that Muhammadwas like Moses. On the other hand,no description from the life of JesusChrist matches that of Moses. Therefore, Jesus was not like Moses.

Who was from among �their� brethren?

According to the prophecy contained in thescripture revealed to Moses, the Final Prophet will be from among thebrethren of Moses and his people i.eIsrael. It implies that the Final Prophet will not come in the progeny of Moses and his people i.e Israel. Hewill be in the progeny of those who are regarded as the brethren of Israel.This assertion if further strengthened by Deuteronomy (34:10): �And there arose not a prophet since inIsrael like unto Moses, whom theLord knew face to face�. The meaning of this statement is that in futurethere will be no Prophet among the people of Israel who will be like Moses i.e. who will speak to God.

Whatneeds to be considered now is how Muhammadwas from among the brethren of Israel. The Prophet Abram (Abraham, Ibrahim inQuran) had 2 sons. His first wife was Sarah. At a time when Sarah had nochildren of her own, she appealed to Abraham to marry an Egyptian lady calledHagar (Hajira). A son was thus born and was named Ishmael (Ismail). Some yearslater Sarah also bore Abraham a son called Isaac (Ishaq). The Arabs are thechildren of Ishmael. The Jews or Israelites are the children of Isaac, the youngerson of Abraham and step-brother of Ismael. The descendants of Ishamel are:Kidar, son of Ishmael; Adnan, a few generations from Kidar; Quraysh, a fewgenerations from Adnan; Abd Manaf, a few generations from Quraysh; Hashim, sonof Abd Manaf; Abdul Muttalib, son of Hashim; Abdullah, son of Abdul Muttalib;and MUHAMMAD, son of Abdullah.

On the other hand, the descendants ofIsaac, the second son of Abraham are: Jacob (later named as Israel), son ofIsaac; Judah, son of Jacob; and MOSES,a few generations from Judah.

So,it becomes clear that Muhammad was adescendant of Ishamel, the elder son of Abraham; and Moses was a descendant of Isaac, the younger son of Abraham. Thusthere is a brotherly relationship between the two lines of descendants. Andtherefore, the revelation �from among their brethren� applies to Muhammad in every sense of the word.

CRUCIFIED OR CRUCIPLAYED : Originally posted by Kish You...

Sun, 07 Apr 2013 11:48:27 +0000

Author: Rahman Shaik
Subject: 22951
Posted: 07 April 2013 at 11:48am

Originally posted by Kish

You make all these allegations but what scriptural proof doyou have to back up what you say? I gave you mine where is yours?

Besides, everyone knows Moses and Jesus did NOT speak Arabic, sothe term Allah is totally out of the picture! Bottom line, just as there is astark contrast between night and day, so it is between the God of the HolyScriptures and the God of the Quran as those 5 points show you.

After informing you that �Allah� is not a New word orOnly-Arabic word or a new concept of God and that it�s the name of God inoriginal Holy Scriptures earlier., now Iwant to let you know further about the words �Muslim� and �Islam�

ISLAM is not a newword or concept

The words �Muslim�and �Islam� are derived from the root word �Silm�. The meaning is �Peace� or �Submissionto the will of God� or �Complete�.

The Aramaic (not Arabic) equivalent is �Shlam� .. this alsohas similar meanings.

Jesus (PBUH) said :

�Peace I leave with you, my (way of) peaceI give unto you: not as the world gives it to you, but only as I give it to you��[John 14:27]

Literally Jesus (PBUH) said in Aramaic:

�Shlama shabaq ana lakoon, Shlama deelee yaheb ana lakoon�

Notice � not like the world gives it toyou (trinity etc??), but only as I give it to you�.

I am quoting 2 commentaries on this:

�Tranquility, that Peace which is under andin accordance to God�s will.� (Source � Enlightenment From Aramaic, SelectedPassages from The Khaboris Manuscript, by Sadook De Mar Shimun, Archdeacon)

��the Peace which caused them to surrenderthemselves to God�� (Source - New Testament Light, George M. Lamsa, Page 141)

Let us now compare this with what Allah(SWT) is saying in Quran:

�.. This day I have completed for you yourreligion, and have perfected my favour upon you, and have chosen for you Al-Islamfor your religion� [5:3]

Shlama and Al-Islam both are derived fromsame root word

�� Verily, the religion with Allah isAl-Islam� [Quran 3:19]

�.. Whoever Allah wishes to guide, He openshis breast to Al-Islam�

Adherents of Islam are called Muslims [theone who surrenders to will of God]

MUSLIM is not anew word or concept

Jesus (PBUH) said:

�The disciple is not above his master: but every one that is perfect shall be as his master..� [Luke 6:40]

Literally Jesus (PBUH) said in Aramaic:

�Ein talmeed na�aleh �al raboo; sheken kaladam she �Mushlam yihyek k�rabbo�

The words �Kal adam� means �All People orAll of mankind or every human being�. This is to say that � in order to be likehim, you have to be �Mushlam� like he was. The word �Mushlam� is also derivedfrom the same root word as Muslim, Islam, Salaam, Shalom etc.,

Mashloom - Convert, to change or turn from one belief or creed to another; toaccept, or to be converted to Moslemism[Source � Oraham�s Dictionary of the Stabilized and Enriched Assyrian Languageand English, by Alexander Joseph Oraham, 1941]

Mishlamana - Perfect/Complete [Source � Syriaic-English / Syriaic-Arabicdictionary, Louis Costaz]

Mishlam � Completion/End [Source �Dictionary of the Targumim, Talmud, Midrashic Lit]

Similarly Jesus (PBUH) used words like sahadoot (bearing witness) which issame Arabic equivalent �Shahaada�

Wa saleeAbraham qadam Allaha = And Abraham prayed to Allah [Genesis 20:17]

Notice Salee (means he prayed) and compareit with Salaah (prayer) of Arabic.

�.. And He (Jesus, PBUH) went a littlefurther, and fell on his face, and prayed��. [Matthew 26:39]

And per Quran, Jesus (PBUH) said :

�It is Allah Who is my Lord and your Lord;then worship Him alone. This is a Way that is straight..� [Quran 3:51]

�Ibrahimwas neither a Jew not a Christian, but he was true Muslim and he was not ofthose who associated partners with Allah..� [Quran 3:67]

�SAY..We believed in Allah and what is revealed to us and what was revealed toIbrahim and Ismail and Ishaq and Yaqub and the descendants, and what was givento Musa and Isa and what was given to the Prophets from their Lord. We makeno distinction between any of them. And to Him we are submissive (ieMuslims)� [ Quran 2:136]

Brother - I hope you notice how much damage the translations of Holy Scriptures caused (from their original languages ie Aramaic/Hebrew to Greek and from Greek to English). Not only the meaning, whole concepts vanished !!!

CRUCIFIED OR CRUCIPLAYED : Originally posted by Kish You...

Sun, 07 Apr 2013 02:06:34 +0000

Author: Rahman Shaik
Subject: 22951
Posted: 07 April 2013 at 2:06am

Originally posted by Kish

You make all these allegations but what scriptural proof doyou have to back up what you say? I gave you mine where is yours?

Brother,

I think you still did not get the point - "Allah is not just a Arabic word", its the same word used in original language of all Prophets (Peace be upon them).

On the contrary, Can you prove to me that Moses (PBUH) and Jesus (PBUH) did not say "Allah" and said "Yehovah"??? I already proved to you that Jesus used the word "Allah" as he spoke in Aramaic (not Arabic) and given you the original transcpripts in Aramaic language in which its nothing but "Allah".

For me after reading Old Testament and Quran, I do not feel its a different God because the fundmental principle that God is only One and He alone be worshipped has not changed.. For me that is the single most important thing. This is why God is saying that come to terms with what is common between us and not the differences.

We may not be able to understand these differences for ever with our limited mindset and keep arguing forever which is why God is again saying he will judge and explain about the differences we were fighting about on that day. But we can easily understand the common things.

Then what is your explanation about Quran? Surely it cant be written by a human being or Muhammad (PBUH).. I have tonnes of points to prove that. So do you think there is another God out there by name Allah apart from Yehovah? How is this possible? Why fight over lables? Accept and follow God's message because our salvation is in that.

You are not answerable to anyone except God on this matter., May He guide you to the True path... Amen.

Edited by Rahman Shaik - 07 April 2013 at 11:51am

CRUCIFIED OR CRUCIPLAYED : <> <> ...

Sat, 06 Apr 2013 21:03:16 +0000

Author: Kish
Subject: 22951
Posted: 06 April 2013 at 9:03pm

You make all these allegations but what scriptural proof doyou have to back up what you say? I gave you mine where is yours?

CRUCIFIED OR CRUCIPLAYED : Originally posted by Kish ...

Sat, 06 Apr 2013 12:37:21 +0000

Author: Rahman Shaik
Subject: 22951
Posted: 06 April 2013 at 12:37pm

Originally posted by Kish

1) The Quran does not mention that Ishmael was the child tobe sacrificed by Abraham

The Holy Scripturesmentions Isaac

2) The Quran does not mention that Muhammad was thepromised seed of Abraham

TheHoly Scriptures mentions Jesus

3) The Quran does not mention that a covenant was madewith Ishmael by God

TheHoly Scriptures mentions Isaac

.............

Brother,

I guess it can be clearly proved it was Ishmael (PBUH) and not Isaac (PBUH) that was to be sacrificed.. anyway, for me it doesnt make difference. If it makes for you, I can present you that article which I need to dig out as I read it sometime back.

I have read many hadiths in which Jibrael (AS) comes to Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) while he was sitting among a group and reveal aspects of religion and later Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) acknowledges to those group of people that he was Jibrael (AS)., Anyway, I think the witness issue comes not for Prophets (peace be upon them) as the righteous among us only are chosen as Prophets (peace be upon them). Its for ordinary people like you and me to testify when we make a claim or commit something, we need to have witness support.

Now, Quran explains �X� number of things and it doesn�texplain �Y� number of things.

No matter how many things are explained, human tendency isto still wonder about things that are not explained.

Now you decide whether you want to be guided through these�X� number of things that are explained or mis-guided through �Y� number ofthings that are not explained.

God Almighty has complete wisdom and we do not know why hechose to explain only X number of things, he knows it best.

Edited by Rahman Shaik - 06 April 2013 at 12:40pm

CRUCIFIED OR CRUCIPLAYED : Father and SonIt makes me...

Sat, 06 Apr 2013 12:21:28 +0000

Author: Rahman Shaik
Subject: 22951
Posted: 06 April 2013 at 12:21pm

Father and Son

It makes me feel miserable how can this small concept of Father and Son cause so much confusion? Why some people do not apply logic and sense?

When God is One as per the first commandment, then how there can be a second God equivalent to first one be it in the form of Son or something else?

If you truly believe God can have a Son in literal sense, what is the difference between you and Hindus who believe God can have wives, sons, daughters etc. (Atleast they believe in a complete family !!!)

It�s absurd that the Son in the earlier Holy Scriptures is taken literally. Can�t you understand God is calling his loved slaves or Prophets affectionately as Sons? Jesus (PBUH) is not the only one called Son. Many more were called Son before Jesus (PBUH) and in some places God is calling all humans as Sons. Jesus (PBUH) said my father and your father referring to God.. Doesn�t it make sense to you that he is referring God as Father in the sense that He is his and our Creator?

For who in the heaven can be compared unto the Lord? who among the sons of the mighty can be likened unto the Lord .. [Psalms 89:6]

You are the childrenof the LORD your God�. [Deuteronomy 14:1]

Jesus (PBUH) also called people Son, daughter

You can see that Jesus (PBUH) called someone his Son .. Matthew 9:2

Jesus (PBUH) called some one his daughter .. Matthew 9:22

Now can you take this in literal sense?

You say church father.. Is he literally a biological father for all those church members?

So what is your meaning of Jesus (PBUH) being Son of God?

Son is the one who is born of your Sperm, Jeans , blood etc.

Do you imply Jesus is born of these elements of God? Does God have these elements? May God forgive for He is above all this. If your meaning of Son is not this then what it is and what is your point in claiming divinity for Jesus (PBUH) while God of Old testament is clearly declaring that none in heaven and his sons can be likened to him?

Father, son, wife � these are human relationships.. How can we apply these things to God? I fail to understand what happens to your common sense in this regard. It�s like saying that if Human created bi-cycle, then human should also be like bi-cycle (with two wheels, one handle, chain etc).

God is above all what we ascribe to him.

Is it because Jesus (PBUH) has no father?

Or are you confused because Jesus (PBUH) was born without a father? Did Adam (PBUH) born of neither mother nor a father? He is also referred as Son of God

Cainan was the son of Enos. Enos was the son of Seth. Seth was the son of Adam. Adam was the son of God. [ Luke 3:39]

Still can we say Adam is son of God? Why not? Because �. For who in the heaven can be compared unto the Lord? who among the sons of the mighty can be likened unto the Lord .. [Psalms 89:6]

There are Sons Greater than Jesus (PBUH)

Then you should say to Pharaoh, �This is what the Lord says: Israel is my firstborn son� [Exodus 4:22]

I will lead them in that way because I am Israel�s father. And Ephraim is my firstborn son. [Jeremiah 31:9]

Some say Jesus (PBUH) is mentioned as begotten son so he is different from other sons. Nope.. There are others mentioned as begotten too. For example, David is also referred to as begotten son:

I will declare the decree: the Lord hath said unto me, Thou art my Son; this day have I begotten thee. [PSALMS 2:7]

Entire Israelis are begotten:

Of the Rock that begat thee thou art unmindful, and hast forgotten God that formed thee. [Deuteronomy 32:18-19]

God is our Creator so he is the father of all his creation in that sense

We all have the same father. The same God made every one of us. So why do people cheat one another? [Malachi 2:10]

Thus the Father-Son relationships in Holy Scriptures are mentioned in a totally different context � emotional, affectional and spiritual sense only.

CRUCIFIED OR CRUCIPLAYED : Originally posted by Kish Forsake...

Fri, 05 Apr 2013 02:53:45 +0000

Author: Rahman Shaik
Subject: 22951
Posted: 05 April 2013 at 2:53am

Originally posted by Kish

Forsake of discussion, the Jews and Chrisitians in theHoly Scriptures acknowledge God as having a personal name (Jehovah) notjust a title (God or Allah � Allah means god in english)............

Your statements that �ALLAH�means �GOD� and that it�s a �TITLE� are TOTALLY WRONG.

Allah has no translation andplural form; it�s a name by itself. Quran is from the same God who has sent theearlier Holy Scriptures. Not only did Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) but Moses (PBUH)and Jesus (PBUH) all called him out as ALLAH only!

Here is the explanation:

Allah is not a title, Many (including muslims) have mis-conceptionthat Allah is formed from two Arabic words � Al & Ilaah . Ilaah means �worthy of worship� so they think�Al� is added infront of �Ilaah� to make it �Allah� (�The Only one worthy ofworship�). But this is totally WRONG and a misconception due to lack ofunderstanding Arabic Grammar.

As per Arabic grammar � Al+Ilaahwill NOT become �Allah� but it will remain �Al Ilaah�

To understand this you need toknow there are 2 groups of letters in Arabic -

If you add �Al� to the firstgroup, that letter gets amplified and �la� becomes silent .. For example youadd �Al� to �Rahman� it comes �Arrahman�, similarly �Al� plus �Raheem� becomes�Arraheem�

If you add �Al� to the secondgroup, nothing happens .. For example, you add �Al� to �Kareem� it remains �AlKareem�.

Now �Ilaah� starts with a letterthat belongs to second group. �Al� plus �Ilaah� doesn�t not become �ALLAH� butit remains �Al Ilaah�

Got it? So �Allah� is not formedof two words., it�s a complete word with no translation in any language., ithas to be translated as �Allah� only and not as �God� or anything else.

Why no objection?

You haven�t correctly answered myquestion why Jews and Christians of Prophet Muhaamad(PBUH)�s time did not raisethis question of �Yehovah versus Allah�? We don�t find any reference in Hadiths also on this sort of objectionthat is because Allah is not a new name and everyone at that time knows thatAllah is the name of their creator. There are many references for Jews having�Abdullah� in their name. For example we read that when Prophet Muhammad (PBUH)emigrated from Makka to Madinah, there was a old Jewish scholar by name �Abdullah Bin Saba�. Now tell me whyhis name has �Abdullah�? How can a Jew have in his name a God (or a title asyou are alleging) of other people whom they hate? Some allege that In Hebrew �Allah� ispronounced as �Elah� or �Elohim�� if this is true then why this person�s nameis not �Abd-Elah Bin Saba� or �Abd-Elohim Bin Saba�??

Slight changes in pronunciations camelater-

Most of the languages change abit in the course of time and hundreds of years will surely cause minorchanges.

There are 3 Arabic letters inAllah, they are � Alif, Laam, Ha

What you need to understand isthe �Elah� or �Elohi� in Hebrew and �Allah� of Aramaic also has these same 3root letters but they are just pronounced slightly differently.

�Alif� of Arabic is pronounced as�Alef� in Hebrew and Aramaic

�Laam� of Arabic is pronounced as�Laamed� in Hebrew and Aramaic

�Ha� of Arabic is pronounced as�He� in Hebrew and Aramaic

Just google "Yehovah" and you will find that its only a translation with many disagreements between translators. Just because you are reading it Yehovah doesnt mean Prophets (Peace be upon them) spoke it or it was in original scripts of Holy Scriptures... Its just a translation for what is there in them.

My brother, come to terms withTruth now., He has not changed his namefrom Old Testament (OT), New Testament (NT) to Ultimate Testament (ie Quran)� It�s same �Allah�. Quran is from the same God whohas sent the earlier Holy Scriptures. Not only did Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) butMoses (PBUH) and Jesus (PBUH) all called him out as ALLAH only!

Edited by Rahman Shaik - 05 April 2013 at 11:16am

CRUCIFIED OR CRUCIPLAYED : Kish you made a charge that, But...

Tue, 02 Apr 2013 10:28:26 +0000

Author: iec786
Subject: 22951
Posted: 02 April 2013 at 10:28am

Kish you made a charge that,

But like the Jews, Muslims on this forum still reject him and the Injil.

I would like you to substantiate your false lies and charge.

CRUCIFIED OR CRUCIPLAYED : <> <> ...

Tue, 02 Apr 2013 06:09:39 +0000

Author: Kish
Subject: 22951
Posted: 02 April 2013 at 6:09am

Forsake of discussion, the Jews and Chrisitians in theHoly Scriptures acknowledge God as having a personal name (Jehovah) notjust a title (God or Allah � Allah means god in english) and also being afather and having sons. Since the beginning of time it is the NAME of God, thatseperated him from all the other false gods. God is not a name just as Lord isnot a name, they are both titles like president, king, or queen. Allpresidents, kings or queens have names right? Everything has a name, since Godmade all things he certainly would have a name also, right?

1Corinthians 8: 4, 6 ⁴Now concerning the eating of foods offered to idols, we know thatan idol is nothing in the world, and that there is no God but one.⁵For eventhough there are those who are called �gods,� whether in heaven or on earth,just as there are many �gods� and many �lords,�⁶there isactually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are, and we for him;and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and wethrough him.

Psalms 113:2, 3 ²May Jehovah�s name become blessed Fromnow on and to time indefinite. ³From the rising of the sun until its setting Jehovah�s name is to be praised.

But the fact of the matter is, the personality of thetwo are strikingly different, one being a father and the other one not. Infact, there are Five Major Points within the Quran that are in stark contrast to the HolyScriptures. Can you explain why,because no one else has been able to.

1) The Quran does not mention that Ishmael was the child tobe sacrificed by Abraham

The Holy Scripturesmentions Isaac

2) The Quran does not mention that Muhammad was thepromised seed of Abraham

TheHoly Scriptures mentions Jesus

3) The Quran does not mention that a covenant was madewith Ishmael by God

TheHoly Scriptures mentions Isaac

4) The Quran does notmention ONE person who witnessed, confirmed ortestified that Muhammad�s Revelation in the cave of Hi�ra was a TRUE event,according to the Law of Moses.

Deuteronomy19:15 . . . At the mouth of two witnesses or at the mouth of threewitnesses the MATTER should stand good �

John8:17, 18 Jesus said: �In your own Law it is written, �The witness of twomen is TRUE.� I am one that bears witness about myself, and the Fatherwho sent me bears witness about me.�

Matthew 18:16 . .. in order that at the mouth of two or three witnesses EVERY MATTERmay be established.

5) The Quran does notmention the god of Muhammad (Allah) as a father and having a son

(Sura 4:171)

The Holy Scriptures mentions the God of Jesus as hisfather (Matt. 3:17)

� ¹⁷Look!Also, there was a voice from the heavens that said: �This is my Son, thebeloved, whom I have approved.�

Originally posted by Rahman Shaik

Iwonder why the Jews and Christians of Prophet Muhammad [PBUH] �s time neverraised this objection saying how is it that your god is �Allah� where as ourGod is �Yehovah�

Remember, it is Islam thatis promoting that the generic name of Allah is Jehovah, not the Jews or Christians.Nonetheless, who are you to say the question was never raised?

Regardless, Isaiah 42: 8 reads this ⁸�Iam Jehovah. That is my NAME; and to no one else shall I give my own glory.. .

CRUCIFIED OR CRUCIPLAYED : Brothers, To start...

Mon, 01 Apr 2013 11:59:03 +0000

Author: Rahman Shaik
Subject: 22951
Posted: 01 April 2013 at 11:59am

Brothers,

To start with, I have a feeling that you have an objectionto the name of God in Quran which is "Allah" as its not matching withyour "Yehovah"/�Jehovah�...

Can you please ponder over below info...

I hope you know Jesus(PBUH) spoke in Aramaic, These are hisliteral (I mean literally he spoke these) words:

Mark 12:29-

"Amar leh Yashu, madmay min kullhoon puqdane, shma'Israyel, Marya Allahan, Marya Had hu"

[...And Jesus answered him, The first of all thecommandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord Allah, The Lord is One]

Matthew 19:17-

"Mana qara anta lee Taba? Layt Taba illa en HadAllaha"

[....Why do you call me good? There's none good except AllahThe One]

Also, In Aramic, Genisis 1:1 is read as below:

"Brasheet bara Allaha eet shmaya wa eet ar'a"

[In the beginning, Allah created the heavens and theearth...]

Genesis 20:17-

Wa salee Abraham qadam Allaha

[...And Abraham prayed to Allah]

Isaiah 46:9-

Etdhikru qadmayta d'min 'alma d'ana na Allaha, wa layt toobilah, wa layt akwatee

[..Remember the former things of old: for I am Allah, andthere is no other god; and there is none like me...]

And so do not be afraid/suspicious of and have hatredtowards the word "Allah", because it�s the name of your "Creator"

Finally,

"Shlama" in Aramaic is nothing but"Islam" in Arabic

---------------------------------------------------------

I wonder why the Jews and Christians of Prophet Muhammad[PBUH] �s time never raised this objection saying how is it that your god is�Allah� where as our God is �Yehovah�

Therefore, Allah is the name of Creator in ALL scriptures.

CRUCIFIED OR CRUCIPLAYED : To continue from above: If you...

Sun, 31 Mar 2013 19:06:48 +0000

Author: Placid
Subject: 22951
Posted: 31 March 2013 at 7:06pm

To continue from above:

If you read on in acts 2 you see that Peter stood up and preached to the multitude and it says:
48 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, �Be saved from this perverse generation.�
41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.

If you read on in Acts to chapter 6, you will see how the new Church grew rapidly, and that the Apostles were performing miracles of healing and deliverance, the same as Jesus did, AND AS JESUS SAID THEY WOULD DO ALSO. ---

And it says this in 6:
7 Then the word of God spread, and the number of the disciples multiplied greatly in Jerusalem, and a great many of the Jewish priests were obedient to the faith.

By this time all of the visitors would have returned home and carried the Gospel message to their countrymen, the Jews. --- The prophecy said that the Gospel would go to the Jews first, and so it had.
Jesus taught the Apostles, who were Jews, --- who taught the people on and after the Day of Pentecost, who were all Jews, --- then the converted Jews took the Gospel message back to their Jewish families in all of the countries listed, --- So, within perhaps two months after the Day of Pentecost, this same Holy Spirit was working through believers to bless the, then known world.

And it continued because the Apostles went out from Jerusalem and established Churches among believers. --- Peter also had travelled to some areas, and his letter,
1 Peter, is addressed this way:
1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ,
To the pilgrims of the Dispersion in Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia,
Note: This letter is dated about 30 years after the Day of Pentecost, so Peter, who spoke on that day, still kept in touch with people who were there. --- This is why the Mission of Jesus was fulfilled following the Day of Pentecost.

Quote: So, can you please clarify what is your objection to Quran as the word of God when you are quoting from Quran to correlate and confirm the events in the gospels and don�t see any contradictions there?

Response: --- I don�t object at all to the Quran, I read it and use it in correlate the events in the Gospels, that are often ignored, --- like your opinion of the unimportance of the Day of Pentecost.
Now, I will suggest that you study the power, works, and Gifts of this Holy Spirit that can indwell Spiritual believers wherever they are. --- I admire your deep studying, so here is another study for you.
--- I don�t see contradictions between the revelations given to Muhammad and the former Scriptures.
I have high regard for Muhammad as the prophet who God used to destroy idolatry in Arabia, and bring the people back the worship of God.

Placid

CRUCIFIED OR CRUCIPLAYED : Hi Rahman, Quote: Who was it...

Sun, 31 Mar 2013 18:24:42 +0000

Author: Placid
Subject: 22951
Posted: 31 March 2013 at 6:24pm

Hi Rahman,

Quote: Who was it that taught Islam and Quran to Prophet Muhammad (PBUH)? It was none other than the Holy spirit who is referred in Quran as Ruh-ul-Quddus, Ruh-ul-Amin or Gibrael (AS). Allah has promissed Quran will be preserved until the day of judgement and you can see that this promise is upheld., Quran is un-altered even by a word from the day of inspiration till now. So why dont you believe that the promise of Jesus (PBUH) is fulfilled in the form of Quran?
I cant understand how through an isolated event like Pentecost does the word of Jesus (PBUH) can be considered to be fulfilled? There are many such incidents in history when holy spirit appeared to have descended on group of people.. I read about it long back and can give you references if you are interested.

Response: --- Gabriel was the angel messenger sent to Zechariah, the father of John the Baptist, and the messenger to Mary, and the messenger to Muhammad, so as an angel he was �a holy spirit,� but he was a created being like all angels. --- But �The Holy Spirit� was the Spirit of God who was with God from the beginning, --- and the Spirit of God that �moved� on the waters to bring life in the sea in Genesis 1:2.

As I said in the verses above, it was the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of truth, the Comforter, that was in Jesus as He taught the disciples, --- and it was the Holy Spirit that Jesus said �would be in them� on the Day of Pentecost.

--- It is stated plainly in John 14:
16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever�
17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.
--- The Spirit of truth, the Holy Spirit, dwelt with them in the Person of Jesus. And would be �In them� on the Day of Pentecost, --- that came down in tongues of fire and rested on them.

This Holy Spirit is neither the breath or spirit of life (which as you say, is common to all), --- nor the soul that continues after death, nor Gabriel, who was an angel that could only be in one place at one time.

--- But what you call �an isolated incident� --- the Day of Pentecost, was the launching of the Gospel going into all the world, as Jesus had said. --- Notice how PUBLIC this was in Acts 2:
1 When the Day of Pentecost had fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven, as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled the whole house where they were sitting.
3 Then there appeared to them divided tongues, as of fire, and one sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
The Crowd�s Response
5 And there were dwelling in Jerusalem Jews, devout men, from every nation under heaven.
6 And when this sound occurred, the multitude came together, and were confused, because everyone heard them speak in his own language.
7 Then they were all amazed and marveled, saying to one another, �Look, are not all these who speak Galileans?
8 And how is it that we hear, each in our own language in which we were born?
9 Parthians and Medes and Elamites, those dwelling in Mesopotamia, Judea and Cappadocia, Pontus and Asia,
10 Phrygia and Pamphylia, Egypt and the parts of Libya adjoining Cyrene, visitors from Rome, both Jews and proselytes,
11 Cretans and Arabs�we hear them speaking in our own tongues the wonderful works of God.�
12 So they were all amazed and perplexed, saying to one another, �Whatever could this mean?�

The Celebration of the Day of Pentecost was as important to the Jews as the Pilgrimage is to Muslims. --- In fact this is what the Bible Dictionary says:
Quote: The combined feast of Passover and Unleavened bread was one of the three feasts the Mosaic law enjoined to be attended by all male Jews who were physically able and ceremonially clean. The other two were �The Feast of Weeks, or Pentecost, and the Feast of Tabernacles. These were known as the pilgrimage festivals, and on all of them special sacrifices were offered. --- End of quote.

This was why there were great crowds living temporarily in Jerusalem and were amazed at this outpouring of the Holy Spirit on men.

Placid

CRUCIFIED OR CRUCIPLAYED : <> <> ...

Sun, 31 Mar 2013 12:44:59 +0000

Author: Kish
Subject: 22951
Posted: 31 March 2013 at 12:44pm

Originally posted by Rahman Shaik

Quran itself isa clear sign that Muhammad (PBUH) is Prophet of Allah (SWT)., our Creator.

However, The Holy Scriptures is veryclear that Muhammad is NOT a prophet sent from the God of Abraham, Isaac andJacob in which monotheism was practiced.

Originally posted by Rahman Shaik

Quran clearlyexplains the Truth about Jesus (PBUH) - that he is a Ruh, a command/word (amr)from Him, is sent by him for guidance of Jews.

Actually it does not. According tothe Injil which came 600 years before the Quran, salvation is only throughJesus, a Truth not accepted by Muslims.

John 14:6, 7 Jesus said tohim: �I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Fatherexcept through me.

Originally posted by Rahman Shaik

Quran rejectsthe idea of God taking up Sons . . .

Which is why Allah of the Quran isdifferent. In the Holy Scriptures Jehovah (YHWH) God is spoken of as havingsons and being a father and that he alone should be worshiped.

Job1:6 Now it came to be the day when the [SONS] of the [true] God entered to taketheir station before Jehovah

Luke3:38 [SON] of Adam, [SON] of God.

Matt.6:9 �YOU must pray, then, this way: Our [Father]in the heavens, let your name be sanctified

Originally posted by Rahman Shaik

Jews hated Jesus(PBUH) and rejected his message. In the same way are you not hatingMuhammad (PBUH) and rejecting his message (Quran) ?

Ifthe Quran teaches something different from what was already declared to us inthe Holy Scriptures we reject it. The Jews had no reason to reject Jesusmessage, even the Quran agrees.

Galatians1:8 However, even if we or an angel out of heaven were to declare to YOU asgood news something beyond what we declared to YOU as good news, let him beaccursed.

CRUCIFIED OR CRUCIPLAYED : Greetings dear Caring Heart.,Quran...

Sat, 30 Mar 2013 20:30:59 +0000

Author: Rahman Shaik
Subject: 22951
Posted: 30 March 2013 at 8:30pm

Greetings dear Caring Heart.,

Quran itself is a clear sign that Muhammad (PBUH) is Prophet of Allah (SWT)., our Creator.

Quran clearly explains the Truth about Jesus (PBUH) - that he is a Ruh, a command/word (amr) from Him, is sent by him for guidance of Jews.

Quran rejects the idea of God taking up Sons and that of Trinity.

Brother, why not read Quran entirely and not selectively, you will find Tawhid (Monotheism) is the central message of Allah (SWT) through Quran.

We can explain what is not God but we cant explain what God is as he is beyond our perception., so why debate that God has son, spirit etc while we do not know what is the reality of spirit as its a non-physical/non-material element which we can never comprehend with our physical and mental abilities. Spirit is used to refer to many things in Quran - not just Jesus (PBUH) and Gibrael (AS). For example - Humanity also have a spirit that is blown in to us (as I explained in my posts, the purpose of this is to deliver consciousness to us). Even Quran is referred to as Spirit in one Verse. So now we have more than 3 spirits so its not logical to hold concept of Trinity.

I have read some Christian doctrine that says God is three (but One) - Father, Son and Holy spirit. Also in the same book I read, this son is the "Word" which was with God (and it was God) and the spirit that is blown in to us through nostrils is nothing but Holy Spirit. So it claimed God is made up of these 3 elements but he is still One like different state of water (like liquid, gas, ice still makes it one).. Ok, I understood what is being said but I will accept it only if I can prove it to my sense whole heartedly.

As per Gospels Jesus (PBUH) promised of holy spirit coming after him and that it will be with us forever. So who is this Holy Spirit now? If it is already blown in to us as per the doctrine of Trinity. Confusion ! If the spirit that is blown in to us is not Holy spirit then that means there are two spirits other than Father and Son.. so now God is not Trinity but made up of 4 elements (can we call this Squarity?)...

I liked your signature very much (Let us seek Truth together, Blessed be God forever).. We have the Truth and Guidence from our Creator in the form of Quran infront of Us. Then what are we doing brother? Why not understand it and clarify our concept of God and Worship him as he is ordering us (Allah is saying he will only accept Islam).

Why this hatred towards prophets of God., Jews hated Jesus (PBUH) and rejected his message. In the same way are you not hating Muhammad (PBUH) and rejecting his message (Quran) ?

May God guide all of us to Truth.

CRUCIFIED OR CRUCIPLAYED : Originally posted by Rahman...

Sat, 30 Mar 2013 11:59:06 +0000

Author: Caringheart
Subject: 22951
Posted: 30 March 2013 at 11:59am

Originally posted by Rahman Shaik

even after seeing clear proofs from Quran.

What do you say?

Greetings Rahman Shaik,

What 'clear proofs from the qur'an'?
What are these clear proofs you speak of?
Thanks and salaam,
CH

CRUCIFIED OR CRUCIPLAYED : Brother who said we do not...

Fri, 29 Mar 2013 01:24:15 +0000

Author: Rahman Shaik
Subject: 22951
Posted: 29 March 2013 at 1:24am

Brother who said we do not believe in Jesus (PBUH)?

A muslim is not a muslim unless he believes in Jesus and all other prophets before Muhammad (May peace be up on them all)...

Infact we believe Jesus (PBUH) exactly as he is described in Quran.

The jews did a mistake by rejecting Jesus (PBUH)

And it appears that Christians are repeating the same mistake by rejecting Muhammad (PBUH) even after seeing clear proofs from Quran.

What do you say?

CRUCIFIED OR CRUCIPLAYED : Hi,To avoid confusion lets...

Fri, 29 Mar 2013 01:18:27 +0000

Author: Rahman Shaik
Subject: 22951
Posted: 29 March 2013 at 1:18am

Hi,

To avoid confusion lets follow this translation

Nafs=Soul ; Ruh=Spirit

Every one of us have own souls, but Ruh is one ie the ruh from Allah (min-ruhi). There is no plural of Ruh in Quran anywhere but plural of Nafs appears in many places.

As far as my findings go this is the correct concept, if you are interested I will post all those Ayaths through which I came to this conclusion. In Quran the use of Nafs and Ruh is very clear.

Now, in arabia even before revelation there is a general concept of Ruh.. that humans have ruh and it will still be there after death and it will be punished or rewarded. So it is possible that some people mis-understood the quranic ayaths and they understood Nafs as Ruh and transmitted hadiths accordingly causing all this confusion. This is why you find some hadiths that say Ruh is taken in sleep and death. But these are based on the Quranic ayath that clearly mentions it as Nafs. This is how the plural of Ruh ie arvahahum appears in some hadiths only but its not there anywhere in Quran. Also I found Muhammad (SAWS) did not say arvahahum as per early hadiths., instead he used the word nusama which is close to nafs (this hadith appears in Imam Malik's muwatta). But in later versions of same hadith its replaced with Arvahahum. So this is the reason of all this confusion. My understanding is this is an un-intentional replacement on part of transmitters of hadith due to prevalent concept of Ruh from pre-islamic days. I notice this pattern in other hadiths also concerning Nafs and Ruh.

We have Nafs (own) and Ruh (common). The purpose of Ruh is to deliver consciousness to us. This feeling of being present/conscious is coming to us because of Ruh only., its required for all our functions like hearing, listening and feeling. Just imagine this., we make lot of things - can we deliver this "feeling of I" to any device? Allah also made us and we need this feeling of I, Allah delivered this through his Ruh. This Ruh is like the infinite 'I' which is enabling our Nafs to experience the feeling of limited "I" ie "I AM". As far is Ruh is concerned, thats the only function. This concept can be explained very nicely from a Quranic verse., again I will post it and its explanation only if you are interested.

Its thru our Nafs we are taking decisions and doing good or bad. So Nafs is accountable for our actions and not Ruh.

On the day of resurrection, as per Quran - Nafs will be joined with body and ofcourse Ruh also will be given (to make us conscious) and accountability will be done on Nafs only.

The hadith of Ruh being breathed in to baby in the womb is correct only as it says "The Ruh" , there is no factory of Ruhs out there manufacturing individual Ruhs to be delivered to babies. Its that same universal Ruh that is being breathed in to newly formed baby in the womb.

The Quranic Ayath saying Allah has taken progeny of Adam from his back doesnt mention either Ruh / Nafs .. so it cant be used to prove that we were Ruhs before creation. Our identity was, is and going to be "Nafs" only. Ruh is something that belongs to Allah (SWT) and we should not claim we are Ruh as it will violate a pillar of Tawhid (Tauhid al-asma- was-sifat). Ruh is something a quality or command of Allah., this is why death, penalty or reward is not mentioned anywhere in Qurah for Ruh.. so we should not say we are Ruh after death.

Hope this clarifies the matter.,

Brother I have done good amount of research on this topic, Alhmadulillah and discussed with many scholars and found most of them have mis-conception with regards to this and get confused when we probe them and stop the discussion quoting an Ayath that says ruh comes with the command of Allah and that we are given little knowledge., I agree but at the same time we should not hold a mis-conception about which Quran has given clear guidance.

I have all the relevent Ayaths and Hadiths to prove my point but I am not pasting as it will be too lengthy. If you need I can paste in a seperate post., InshaAllah.,

Alhmadulillah, this study also proves the accuracy and divine nature of Quran which is impossible if it was composed by a human being as we can see how the concept was mixed up in human works where as it was held perfect in the word of Allah (SWT).

Allah (SWT) know the best!

Walekum As-salam WR.

CRUCIFIED OR CRUCIPLAYED : <> <> ...

Thu, 28 Mar 2013 06:35:40 +0000

Author: Kish
Subject: 22951
Posted: 28 March 2013 at 6:35am

What theQur�ān Says About Christ

♦ Theangels announced good news from God to Mary. She would give birth to Jesus.�Āl�Imrān [3]:45.

♦ He wasborn of God�s spirit, without a human father.�Al-Anbiyā� [21]:91.

♦ He was bornholy (�faultless,� MMP).�Maryam [19]:19.

♦ God madeof him a sign for mankind and a mercy from Him. �Maryam [19]:21.

♦ It wassaid of him that he was the Word of God and his Spirit.�Compare Āl �Imrān[3]:45; Al-Nisā� [4]:171.

♦ Godappointed him as prophet and apostle.�Al-Nisā� [4]:171; Maryam[19]:30.

♦ Godtaught him the Book and Wisdom, the Torah and the Injīl.�Āl �Imrān[3]:48.

But like the Jews, Muslims on this forum still reject him and the Injil.

Edited by Kish - 28 March 2013 at 6:37am

CRUCIFIED OR CRUCIPLAYED : Originally posted by Rahman...

Wed, 27 Mar 2013 23:54:09 +0000

Author: truthnowcome
Subject: 22951
Posted: 27 March 2013 at 11:54pm

Originally posted by Rahman Shaik

Hi Caringheart,

I have been wondering for some time about concept of Soul and spirit and found that many have mixed up Nafz and Ruh. In Quran it is not mentioned anywhere that both are same. In fact if you analyse Quran, you will find a striking pattern in the use of these two words - Nafz and Ruh.

Nafz can be translated as Soul., and Ruh as Spirit.

Allah (SWT) is saying in Quran that he created us from one Nafz and spread us from there., and he is referring to our personality as Nafz in all the verses. It is the Nafz that is taken during sleep and death (some muslims still think its Ruh that is taken during death where as that verse doesnt contain the word Ruh at all). Its the Nafz that is put to trail, its the Nafz that is rewarded/punished in the hereafter.

It the Nafz we have to refine (from state of Ammara to Mutmainnah with which Allah SWT will be pleased and grant paradise, InshaAllah). Some muslims think that we have to refine our Ruh.. which is not an authentic concept as per Quran.

Spirit (Ruh) is blown in Adam and it will be blown in to every baby by an angel. This is not same as Nafz. In the hadith Arruh is mentioned means its referring to that same Ruh which belongs to Allah (SWT). People confuse here thinking that what is being blown is a personal Ruh of that person.. this concept is incorrect.

So if there are 10 people, they are different in the sense that each has their own Nafz., but they all have common Ruh which is from Allah (SWT)

Ruh is used in 3 contexts in Quran -

1) Min-ruhi (Ruh from Allah) that is blown in to humans;

2) Ruh ul Quddus /Ruh al Amin referring to Jibael (AS)

3) Ruh ullah - referrring to Isa (Jesus) (AS)

Ruh is not a physical element so rules of numbers do not apply to it., how all the above Ruhs are related is not in our knowledge. Allah SWT is saying in one verse that we are given very little knowledge about this Ruh.,

As far as my findings go this should be the correct understanding., A common misconception that Nafz and Ruh are one and the same is causing all this confusion.

Hope you can now see similarity between christianity concept and Islamic., will be glad to hear from you on this subject.,

Abd-Rahman.

As Salam mu alikum Shaik!

Just for some clarifications, I have been thought that Allahbread in the �soul� into Adam and when I ask the question; why the soul, I wastold that the scholar inter change the translation. I also found many Sheiksused the word �soul� and that confused me so I decided to do a research on it,it is then I recognize the difference between the Spirit (Nafz) and Soul (Ruh),and it is I who come up with the reasoning that each person have his own spirit(Ruh). The reason for that is because of the original creation in Heaven whenAllah (S) created Adam and his descendant�s there before they were put onearth.

�Whenthy Lord drew forth from the Children of Adam - from their loins - theirdescendants, and made them testify concerning themselves,(saying): �Am I not your Lord (who cherishes and sustains you)?� Theysaid: �Yea! We do testify!� (This), lestye should say on the Day of Judgment: �Varily, we have been unaware of this�

Orlest ye should say: �It was Our fathers before us may have taken false gods,but we are (their) descendants after them: wilt Thou then destroy uswho took others as partnesrin worship along with Allah, and we were (merelytheir) decendants after them; will you then destroy us because of the deeds ofmen?� Al-A'raf (The Heights) 7:172-173

The Hadith conformsthat it is the Ruh (Spirit) the angel brought from heaven to put in side thechild after 6 weeks and not the soul (Nafz). So if when we were back there inthe beginning what form were we Ruh (Spirit) or Nafz (soul)? Please explain.

Also it mentioned in theQur�an:

�Thou wilt not find any people who believe in Allahand the Last Day, loving those who oppose Allah and His Messenger, even thoughthey were their fathers or their sons, or their brothers, or their kindred. Forsuch He has written Faith in their hearts, and strengthened them with a spirit from Himself. And He will admit them to Gardens beneath whichRivers flow, to dwell therein (for ever). Allah will be well pleased with them,and they with Him. They are the Party of Allah (Hezbullah). Truly it is theParty of Allah that will achieve Success.� (Qur�an 58:22)

Please explain whatis this spirit from Himself.

Br. zainool

Edited by truthnowcome - 28 March 2013 at 12:10am

CRUCIFIED OR CRUCIPLAYED : Hi Placid,Who was it that...

Wed, 27 Mar 2013 01:59:09 +0000

Author: Rahman Shaik
Subject: 22951
Posted: 27 March 2013 at 1:59am

Hi Placid,

Who was it that taught Islam and Quran to Prophet Muhammad (PBUH)? It was none other than the Holy spirit who is referred in Quran as Ruh-ul-Quddus, Ruh-ul-Amin or Gibrael (AS). Allah has promissed Quran will be preserved until the day of judgement and you can see that this promise is upheld., Quran is un-altered even by a word from the day of inspiration till now. So why dont you believe that the promise of Jesus (PBUH) is fulfilled in the form of Quran?

I cant understand how through an isolated event like Pentecost does the word of Jesus (PBUH) can be considered to be fulfilled? There are many such incidents in history when holy spirit appeared to have descended on group of people.. I read about it long back and can give you references if you are interested.

So, can you please clarify what is your objection to Quran as the word of God when you are quoting from Quran to correlate and confirm the events in the gospels and dont see any contradictions there?

CRUCIFIED OR CRUCIPLAYED : Hi Abd-Rahman, Since you haven’t...

Tue, 26 Mar 2013 16:40:15 +0000

Author: Placid
Subject: 22951
Posted: 26 March 2013 at 4:40pm

Hi Abd-Rahman,

Since you haven�t responded with your thoughts of the Holy Spirit and the Day of Pentecost, I thought I might give some info about Jesus and the Holy Spirit from the Gospels.

--- Starting with Luke 1:
31 And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bring forth a Son, and shall call His name Jesus.
32 He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Highest
34 Then Mary said to the angel, �How can this be, since I do not know a man?�
35 And the angel answered and said to her, �The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Highest will overshadow you; therefore, also, that Holy One who is to be born will be called the Son of God.
--- (So Jesus was not a biological or literal Son of God, but was CALLED the Son of God.)

--- Notice: --- That it says that the Holy Spirit came on Mary and implanted the seed of life in her womb, and �Jesus was born of the virgin Mary.� --- It says the same in the Quran, including this verse that speaks of the Word from heaven that indwelt Jesus --- Surah 3:
45 Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! God giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to God;
So the Holy Spirit and the Word was with Jesus all of His life on earth.

--- Notice again, that Jesus was CALLED the Son of God, --- and in the verse above, He was also CALLED the Word --- or �A Word from God.�

We can find the first promise of the Day of Pentecost in John 14:
15 Jesus said, �If you love Me, keep My commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever�
17 the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.

--- The Spirit of truth, the Holy Spirit, dwelt with them in the Person of Jesus. And would be �In them� on the Day of Pentecost.

25 �These things I have spoken to you while being present with you.
26 But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.

--- So the Holy Spirit would teach them spiritual things and give them recall of what Jesus taught them.

15:26 �But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me.
27 And you also will bear witness, because you have been with Me from the beginning.

--- The great witness to the world was on the Day of Pentecost, when the Holy Spirit �testified� through the disciples.

16:5 �But now I go away to Him who sent Me, and none of you asks Me, �Where are You going?�
6 But because I have said these things to you, sorrow has filled your heart.
7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth. It is to your advantage that I go away; for if I do not go away, the Helper will not come to you; but if I depart, I will send Him to you.

12 �I still have many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.
13 However, when He, the Spirit of truth, has come, He will guide you into all truth; for He will not speak on His own authority, but whatever He hears He will speak; and He will tell you things to come.
14 He will glorify Me, for He will take of what is Mine and declare it to you.

--- The Spirit of truth, the Holy Spirit would guide the Disciples into all truth. --- He would not speak anything different than what Jesus taught them, He would tell them things to come.
And when the Day of Pentecost was come they would glorify Jesus through the Holy Spirit that would indwell them.

Placid

CRUCIFIED OR CRUCIPLAYED : Hi Placid,Thanks for your...

Sun, 10 Mar 2013 10:36:19 +0000

Author: Rahman Shaik
Subject: 22951
Posted: 10 March 2013 at 10:36am

Hi Placid,

Thanks for your response. Yes, Ruh is the spirit that is blown in to the womb. It is good to see that with this, you can see similarity in Christian concept.

It is the Nafz (soul) that is extracted in death [Quran 21:35,29:57,6:93] and it is the Nafz (soul) that will be joined with body on the day of resurrection [Quran 81:6] and it is the Nafz that will be put to trail and punished or rewarded as per its deeds in this world [Quran 50:21,10:30,81:14,82:5,14:51,20:15,6:93].

Also, until the day of resurrection, Nafz (soul) will be kept in what is known as Barzakh (meaning a divide, Quran 23:100). There also it will be tortured if its a sinful soul and will be given the good news of Paradise if its a pious soul. But this torture is like mental torture and not physical. Physical torture will happen after day of resurrection when soul is joined with body. Physical torture will be more than the initial mental torture. This is clearly explained in many verses of Quran.

I intend to answer all your questions, God willing [InshaAllah].

I will be commenting on your belief of receiving holyspirt and pentecost soon.

Before that its a better to clarify the function of this spirit from Allah (min-roohi) which is being blown in to each individual soul (Nafz).

Many confused that min-roohi is our soul where as its the Nafz that is our soul. Then what is the need of this min-roohi? Here also a lot of incorrect explanations given.

One attribute of Almighty Allah is that he is our sustainer. If our soul is like an electrical device, this spirit is like the electricity that is required for functioning of this electrical device.

I have studied religions and vairous belief systems including Mysticism which is actually a unique ideology but got spread in to all religions- for example like Sufism in Islam. From my study, what I understood is that these Mystics, through their spiritual practices might be having an experience of this spirit which they explain as Fana (mystic union with God) and so claim divinity. They erred because they equated or assumed this spirit is same as God.

To explain this in a little bit scientific sense., our Nafz(soul) is receiving two inputs - 1)Signals from sense organs 2)Spirit. It is producing the output which is a consciousness that we are this body ("I AM THIS BODY" consciousness).

Now through some practices if you can suspend one input i.e signals from senses, then output from soul will be "I AM INFINITE". This will be an extraordinary experience which cant be described in words. This misguided these people to think that they have experienced God and ultimately to the claim of divinity.

So from all this, we can come to an understanding that spirit is required for us to have body consciousness in this world. I do not have any Quranic verses to prove this and this is only my understanding after studying a lot on this topic.. because Science is still not able to explain how consciousness is being generated in brain and Spirit could be the answer for it. Since this is not a material thing, we will never be able to understand and explain it completely.

So, this spirit could well possibly be the "Universal consciousiness" that these mystics and a lot of other people following similar ideologies are claiming.

If spirit is not required for our functioning then its like we are self-sustainable without depending on Allah but this is not the case., he can pull that plug of electricity whenever he wants and we are fully at his mercy.

Hope this explanation clarifies the function of Nafz(soul), Ruh(Spirit) to all those who are confused on this topic., InshaAllah.

I will get back to you soon with a reply to your actual question on Holy spirit and Pentecost.,

Abd-Rahman.

CRUCIFIED OR CRUCIPLAYED : Hi Rahman, Quote: I have been...

Thu, 07 Mar 2013 11:03:03 +0000

Author: Placid
Subject: 22951
Posted: 07 March 2013 at 11:03am

Hi Rahman,

Quote: I have been wondering for some time about concept of Soul and spirit and found that many have mixed up Nafz and Ruh. In Quran it is not mentioned anywhere that both are same. In fact if you analyse Quran, you will find a striking pattern in the use of these two words - Nafz and Ruh.
Nafz can be translated as Soul, and Ruh as Spirit.

Response: --- I believe this is the right understanding. While I am not familiar with the words, I believe that the spirit of life (Ruh) that is given in the womb, is with us through life and leaves us to return to God at physical death, which is the separation of body and spirit.

This is something that was written by Solomon, about death, in the Book of Ecclesiastes, 12:
5 For man goes to his eternal home,
And the mourners go about the streets.
7 Then the dust will return to the earth as it was,
And the spirit will return to God who gave it.

If the Soul is the intellect, or �seat of the emotions� that continues after death, --- then it says basically, that �our body returns to the earth,� --- and the spirit �returns to God who gave it.�
--- Then our soul (Nafz) would go into a �place of holding� where it will await the Judgment of God.

However, the Holy Spirit that was with Jesus or that �indwelt� Him, --- is neither of the above, but is mentioned this way in Surah 2:
87 And verily We gave unto Moses the Scripture and We caused a train of messengers to follow after him, and We gave unto Jesus, son of Mary, clear proofs (of Allah's sovereignty), and We supported him with the Holy Spirit, --- (and),
253 Of those messengers, some of whom We have caused to excel others, and of whom there are some unto whom Allah spake, while some of them He exalted (above others) in degree; and We gave Jesus, son of Mary, clear proofs (of Allah's Sovereignty) and We supported him with the Holy Spirit.

So this is the same Holy Spirit that was given to the Apostles on the Day of Pentecost in Acts 2, which empowered them to do the same miracles of healing and deliverance that Jesus did, before them.

Now Christians believe from the New Testament, that when they accept God�s plan of salvation, they can also receive this Holy Spirit from God, into their being, --- and the Spirit will guide them to the end of their lives in service to God. --- Then when physical death comes, --- the body returns to the earth, and the spirit of life (Ruh) returns to God who gave it, --- and the Holy Spirit would take the believing soul (Nafz) to heaven, as a �saved soul.�

Is this similar to your understanding?

Placid

CRUCIFIED OR CRUCIPLAYED : Originally posted by Rahman...

Wed, 06 Mar 2013 06:28:25 +0000

Author: Webber
Subject: 22951
Posted: 06 March 2013 at 6:28am

Originally posted by Rahman Shaik

Hi Caringheart,

Nafz can be translated as Soul., and Ruh as Spirit.

So if there are 10 people, they are different in the sense that each has their own Nafz., but they all have common Ruh which is from Allah (SWT)

Ruh is used in 3 contexts in Quran -

1) Min-ruhi (Ruh from Allah) that is blown in to humans;

2) Ruh ul Quddus /Ruh al Amin referring to Jibael (AS)

3) Ruh ullah - referrring to Isa (Jesus) (AS)

As far as my findings go this should be the correct understanding., A common misconception that Nafz and Ruh are one and the same is causing all this confusion.

Hope you can now see similarity between christianity concept and Islamic., will be glad to hear from you on this subject.,

Abd-Rahman.

Best explanation so far. Very similar to Christian beliefs.

CRUCIFIED OR CRUCIPLAYED : Hi Truthnow, The Comforter was...

Tue, 05 Mar 2013 09:57:55 +0000

Author: Placid
Subject: 22951
Posted: 05 March 2013 at 9:57am

Hi Truthnow,

The Comforter was the Holy Spirit that is explained in John, and we will start in John 13:
In 26-30, Jesus identified Judas Iscariot as His betrayer, and after he had gone out, Jesus said to the 11:
34 A new Commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another.
35 By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another.�

14:15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;
17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it sees him not, neither knows him: but ye know him; for he dwells with you, and shall be in you.
--- (The Comforter, the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of truth, dwelt with them in the Person of Jesus. --- The Promise was given, that when Jesus left, the Comforter, Holy Spirit, Spirit of truth, would indwell them.)

25 These things have I spoken unto you, being yet present with you.
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
--- (It was to the Apostles that Jesus said, �The Holy Spirit would teach them all things, and bring all things to their remembrance.)

15:26 But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceeds from the Father, he shall testify of me:
27 And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.
--- (The Holy Spirit, which comes from God, would indwell them, and would testify of Jesus in them,--- and on the Day of Pentecost in Acts 2, the Apostles were filled with the Holy Spirit, as Jesus had promised, --- and they went out from Jerusalem as �witnesses� for Jesus.)

16:13 But when He (the Comforter), the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will show you things to come.
14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall show it unto you.
15 All things that the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he shall take of mine, and shall show it unto you.

--- (So Jesus revealed all of the Gospel Message to the Apostles, and when He was no longer with them, the Comforter, the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of truth, --- would take Jesus� place, not only, �To be with them forever,� [14:16] and �Teaching them all things, and bringing all things to their remembrance,� [14:26], --- but, �He will guide you into all truth.� --- �He will not speak of Himself,� as though the Holy Spirit had a different message than Jesus, --- �He will show you things to come,� or �prophesy through you,� [16:13].)

14 �HE SHALL GLORIFY ME.� --- That is what the Comforter, the Spirit of truth, does today through believing Christians, who allow the Holy Spirit to guide them. --- They �Glorify Jesus,� and continue the teaching of His word.

--- And this is how the Holy Spirit came on them on the Day of Pentecost, in Acts 2:
1 And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.
2 And suddenly there came a sound from heaven as of a rushing mighty wind, and it filled all the house where they were sitting.
3 And there appeared unto them cloven tongues like as of fire, and it sat upon each of them.
4 And they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak with other tongues, as the Spirit gave them utterance.
--- (You can read the effect it had on the Jews who were in Jerusalem for the celebration),

--- And here are the results of Peter�s preaching that followed, on that first day:
41 Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls.

Placid

CRUCIFIED OR CRUCIPLAYED : Hi Caringheart,I have been...

Tue, 05 Mar 2013 02:57:17 +0000

Author: Rahman Shaik
Subject: 22951
Posted: 05 March 2013 at 2:57am

Hi Caringheart,

Nafz can be translated as Soul., and Ruh as Spirit.

So if there are 10 people, they are different in the sense that each has their own Nafz., but they all have common Ruh which is from Allah (SWT)

Ruh is used in 3 contexts in Quran -

1) Min-ruhi (Ruh from Allah) that is blown in to humans;

2) Ruh ul Quddus /Ruh al Amin referring to Jibael (AS)

3) Ruh ullah - referrring to Isa (Jesus) (AS)

As far as my findings go this should be the correct understanding., A common misconception that Nafz and Ruh are one and the same is causing all this confusion.

Hope you can now see similarity between christianity concept and Islamic., will be glad to hear from you on this subject.,

Abd-Rahman.

CRUCIFIED OR CRUCIPLAYED : Originally posted by PlacidAnd...

Mon, 04 Mar 2013 21:32:53 +0000

Author: truthnowcome
Subject: 22951
Posted: 04 March 2013 at 9:32pm

Originally posted by Placid

And a verse says, �God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself.�
(More on the Comforter later)

Placid

Placid, I am waiting! Bring it on!

TNC

CRUCIFIED OR CRUCIPLAYED : <...

Sun, 03 Mar 2013 22:48:28 +0000

Author: truthnowcome
Subject: 22951
Posted: 03 March 2013 at 10:48pm

<>

Originally posted by Placid

And the Word will be honored in the hereafter forever, as written in theRevelation. --- Sometimes called by His full name, �The Word of God� --- andsometimes as --- the resurrected �Jesus.� --- Also called KING of Kings andLORD of Lords

--- This Word came down and indwelt the body of Jesus, along with the HolySpirit of God.
And the Holy Spirit was the Comforter, that is written about in John 14, 15,and 16.

--- Both the Word and the Holy Spirit were Manifestations of God that indweltJesus on earth, and Jesus was the Vessel of God, --- but not God Himself, ---as Almighty God never leaves heaven.

And a verse says, �God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself.�
(More on the Comforter later)

Placid

YOUOPINION EXPOSES YOUR EMPTINESS! �JESUS WAS THE VESSEL OF GOD BUT NOT GODHIMSELF, ---GOD NEVER LEAVE HEAVEN, ---GOD MANIFEST IN CHRIST---GOD WAS INCHRIST�

MAKEUP YOUR MIND PLACID!

Thisis what your book says:

Behold,the hour cometh, yea, is now come,that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yetI am �not alone,� because the Father is �with me�. (John 16: 32)

Believest thou notthat I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto youI speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.(John 14:10)

THEPRAYING GOD:

Andhe (THE MANIFESTATION OF GOD) took with him Peter and the two sons of Zebedee,and began to be sorrowful and very heavy. Then saith he unto them, (AND GOD SAID) My soul is exceedingsorrowful, even unto death (THE MANIFESTATION GOD WAS AFRAID TODIE): tarry ye here, and watch with me. And he went alittle farther, and fell on his face. And prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let thiscup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou will. Matt.26:35-39

NoticeGOD WAS PRAYING TO HIMSELF? THEN AN ANGEL CAME TO GIVE HIM POWER:

And there appeared an angel unto him from heaven, strengtheninghim. (Luke 22:43)

Godsaid: �My soul� and not �flesh�, not his human side �flesh� but his spiritual side �soul.� His soul was exceeding sorrowfuleven unto death, he fears death. Which God will fear death? According tothe writings of the bible, The Father God was in him and with him in the sameJohn 16: verse 32 and also john14:10.

Ifthe Father is �with him and in him�,what is the purpose of �sending anangel?� Doangels strengthen God or the manifestation of God? Orwhy the angel has to strengthen Jesus (S) when all power was given unto him?

tnc

CRUCIFIED OR CRUCIPLAYED : <> ...

Sun, 03 Mar 2013 22:33:37 +0000

Author: truthnowcome
Subject: 22951
Posted: 03 March 2013 at 10:33pm

<>

Originally posted by Placid

God, --- the Word (Logos), --- and the Holy Spirit, cannot be seen, so God hadto be made Manifest or �revealed� in something, or someone, that can be seen.
For instance, when God first revealed Himself to Moses, it says this in Exodus3:
1 Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest ofMidian. And he led the flock to the back of the desert, and came to Horeb, themountain of God.
2 And the Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midstof a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but thebush was not consumed.
3 Then Moses said, �I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why thebush does not burn.�
4 So when the Lord saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from themidst of the bush and said, �Moses, Moses!� --- And he said, �Here I am.�
5 Then He said, �Do not draw near this place. Take your sandals off your feet,for the place where you stand is holy ground.�
6 Moreover He said, �I am the God of your father�the God of Abraham, the God ofIsaac, and the God of Jacob.� And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to lookupon God.

God is not a burning bush, but God, through the Angel of the Lord, said fromthe burning bush, �I am the God of your father�the God of Abraham, the God ofIsaac, and the God of Jacob.�

--- While some believe that Jesus was in heaven with God from the beginning,they misunderstand the Scriptures that say, --- the Word (Logos), who WAS fromthe beginning, was sent down from God, to indwell a human body for 33 years onearth. --- The Word was from heaven, but the body was born on earth.
Placid

Godtalk true the angel? Or the angel was representing God?

Iread your book and nowhere it says: �the word was sent down from God to indwella human body.

Actually,It says, �the word became flesh�; and not indwell, then later on the HolySpirit abode upon Jesus (S) when he got baptize.

Howthe word became flesh? We have to go back to Genesis for example ho the wordwas used.

Itmentioned in the beginning:

�andGod said, let there belight: and there was light�. (genesis.1:3)

So which word was withGod? BE!And that is the word he used to create all things according Genesis 1

Quranputs it in short:

�When he (Allah) hath decreed a matter, He but said to it, be and it is!� (Q.3:47)

�The similitude of Jesusbefore Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him, BEAnd he was.� (Q.3:59)

�and the word (be) was made flesh, and dwellamong us. (John.1: 14)

Sothe word (BE) does not indwell any one but YOUR OPINION IS GOOD FOR THE BLINDNESS.The word was used to create every things that exist, read whole of Genesis 1.

Originally posted by Placid

even as it says in Surah 3:
45 Behold! the angel said: "O Mary! God giveth thee glad tidings of a Wordfrom Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour inthis world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to God.�

It is actually the �Word� that was held in honor in heaven, being the nearestto God, --- and held in honor on earth, as God�s power was Manifested throughthe Word, --- in speaking through Jesus as the Voice of God, when He said, inJohn 8:58, �Before Abraham was I AM.� --- And through the Holy Spirit,performed the miracles of healing, casting out of evil spirits, and raising thedead, --- as in Surah 3:49 and 5:110.
And the Word will be honored in the hereafter forever, as written in theRevelation. --- Sometimes called by His full name, �The Word of God� --- andsometimes as --- the resurrected �Jesus.� --- Also called KING of Kings andLORD of Lords

--- This Word came down and indwelt the body of Jesus, along with the HolySpirit of God.
And the Holy Spirit was the Comforter, that is written about in John 14, 15,and 16.

--- Both the Word and the Holy Spirit were Manifestations of God that indweltJesus on earth, and Jesus was the Vessel of God, --- but not God Himself, ---as Almighty God never leaves heaven.

And a verse says, �God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself.�
(More on the Comforter later)

Placid

Don�ttry to explain your opinion to me; the word that was with God is (BE) and itdoes not speak, it is God Almighty when he decreed a plan then he used it tobring it into existence. When Jesus (S) said: "before Abraham I AM� he didn�tsay he is the �I am�. All he is saying there is that, he was back there in thebeginning and Revelation 1: 5 says he was a FAITHFULL WITNESS:

�And� from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness�� Rev.1: 5

TNC

Edited by truthnowcome - 03 March 2013 at 10:56pm

CRUCIFIED OR CRUCIPLAYED : &l...

Sun, 03 Mar 2013 22:25:49 +0000

Author: truthnowcome
Subject: 22951
Posted: 03 March 2013 at 10:25pm

<>

Originally posted by Placid

Hi Truthnow,

Quote: Placid, you were told to believe in the �Bible� (Collection of books) soI cant answer your question base on how you ask it; however, If you are tryingto ask me where it mentioned those things from God�s previous revelation, wellthem, It was not revealed to the former Prophets but it revealed to the LastProphet [Muhammad (S)] and it mentioned in the Qur�an. Did not Jesus (S) said:��I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeitwhen he, the Spirit of Truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for heshall not speak of himself; but what he hears.�(John.16:12-13)
ALL THE TRUTH WAS YET TO COME CONCERN ADAM AND HIS DESCENDANT�S WHEN THECOMFORTERS COMES.

Response: --- I see, you can�t answer where the Bible says that Solomon andJesus were supposedly with God in the beginning, --- because there is noScripture to support this, --- or, that any other one who was born on earth,was there in the beginning, --- except God, His Word (Logos), and His HolySpirit who are identified in Genesis 1:1-3.

Placid

Placid I showed you clearly here that Solomon was back there:

The title did not reveal to Solomon, that is the author opinion base onhis limited understanding. It was Solomon who was describing him self in a poetic form if that what you want tocall it. God Almighty didn�t �broughtforth Wisdom� God isthe Wisdom (the all wise). I saw you mentioned there that: �God was the allwise� Well then, God does not separate himself from his attributes: Hiswisdom does not�rejoice with Him and be beside him� Wake upmy friend placid! Attributes of God does not �rejoice and be beside him self,His attributes, �DESCRIBE HIM and there are not only seven, there are over 100+ attributes�

Originally posted by Placid

Hi Truthnow, --- God�sdiversity is part of His �Being� and they are all from these seven, which wemay call attributes, if that is a worthy word:
God is: Sovereign, Transcendent, Omnipotent, Omniscient, Omnipresent, Self-Existent and Self Sufficient.
--- God could not be compared to anything that Hecreated through His Word (Logos).
Someone said, --- �God is of Divine Essence which is abovePersonhood.� Placid

God Almighty is not �omnipresent�! Is God present in the TOILET? Wakeup! Well, was Jesus (s) created, If yes, by whom?

Originally posted by Placid

Hi Truthnow,
Quote: Placid, you were told to believe in the �Bible� (Collection of books) soI cant answer your question base on how you ask it; however, If you are tryingto ask me where it mentioned those things from God�s previous revelation, wellthem, It was not revealed to the former Prophets but it revealed to the LastProphet [Muhammad (S)] and it mentioned in the Qur�an. Did not Jesus (S) said:��I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeitwhen he, the Spirit of Truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for heshall not speak of himself; but what he hears.�(John.16:12-13)
ALL THE TRUTH WAS YET TO COME CONCERN ADAM AND HIS DESCENDANT�S WHEN THECOMFORTERS COMES.

Response: --- I see, you can�t answer where the Bible says that Solomon andJesus were supposedly with God in the beginning, --- because there is noScripture to support this, --- or, that any other one who was born on earth,was there in the beginning, --- except God, His Word(Logos), and His Holy Spirit who are identified in Genesis 1:1-3.

Placid

WHATHAPPEN TO THE SON IN THE BEGINNING? In revelation 1:5 it mentioned that Jesus(S) was a �FAITHFULL WITNESS� back there in the beginning:

�Johnto the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from �him� which is, and which was, andwhich is to come; �and� from the sevenSpirits which are before his throne; V.5 �And� from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness�� Rev.1: 4-5

As you can see all are distinct personality,First God Almighty: �Grace be unto you, and peace, from �him�which is, and which was, and which is to come�; then the seven Spirits which is before the throne: �andfrom the seven Spirits which are before his throne�; and thenJesus Christ who is a Faithfull witness: �and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithfulwitness�. If the sevenSpirits of God Almighty was part of Him well then they would also be on thethrone, but they were before the throne worshiping God Almighty. So the One,which is, which was and which is to come is �GOD ALMIGHTY� because God Almightyexisted as he is, He was here when Adam was created on earth; and is yet tocome in the end. In Rev. 1: 8 mentioned that! He is the ALMIGHTY:

�I amAlpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is tocome, the ALMIGHTY�. Rev.1:8

Theseven spirits were before Almighty God�s Throne and Jesus (S) was a �faithfulwitness�. In Revelation 4: 2-11 and 5:1-7 mentioned who was on the Throne:

Revelation 4:2-11:

Andimmediately I (John) was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set inheaven, and one sat on the throne.Rev. 4:2

The one that sits on the throne is God!

Andhe that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone:and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.Rev.4:3

And round about the throne were four andtwenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothedin white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold. Rev.4:4

Andout of the throne preceded lightnings and thunderings and voices: and therewere seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God. Rev.4:5

The seven Spirit is before the throne and not on thethrone; they are not part of God Almighty.

Andwhen those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever andever, Rev.4:9

Thouart worthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: for thou hastcreated all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created. Rev.4:11

THE ONE THAT SITS ON THE THRONE:

Revelation5

And Isaw in the right hand of �him that sat on the throne� a book written within andon the backside, sealed with seven seals. Rev.5:1

TheOne that sits on the throne has a book, and what he did with it? Let�s find out.

Andone of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe ofJudah, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose theseven seals thereof.Rev.5:5

AndI beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and inthe midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven hornsand seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all theearth. Rev.5:6

Andhe came and took the book out of the right hand of him that satupon the throne. Rev.5:7

Yousee that? The One that sits on the throne has a book, and what happen with thebook? The lamb took it. So, who took the book out of the right hand of himthat sat on the throne? The Lamb!And who is sitting on the throne? GodAlmighty!

Nothingnew! It�s all in Revelation 1:1

TheRevelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortlycome to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John.Rev.1:1

�ForI have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me acommand, what I should say and what I should speak." (John 12:49)

Andwho was Jesus (S)? Revelation 1:5 says:

�JesusChrist, who is the faithful witness!�

And who is God Almighty? He is the �creator�:

�Thou artworthy, O Lord, to receive glory and honour and power: forthou hast created all things, and for thy pleasure they are and were created. Rev.4:11

Andwhen those beasts give glory and honour and thanks to him that sat on the throne, who liveth for ever and ever,�Rev.4:9

TNC

CRUCIFIED OR CRUCIPLAYED : Hi Truthnow, Quote: Placid, you...

Sat, 02 Mar 2013 14:22:31 +0000

Author: Placid
Subject: 22951
Posted: 02 March 2013 at 2:22pm

Hi Truthnow,

Quote: Placid, you were told to believe in the �Bible� (Collection of books) so I cant answer your question base on how you ask it; however, If you are trying to ask me where it mentioned those things from God�s previous revelation, well them, It was not revealed to the former Prophets but it revealed to the Last Prophet [Muhammad (S)] and it mentioned in the Qur�an. Did not Jesus (S) said: ��I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. Howbeit when he, the Spirit of Truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but what he hears.� (John.16:12-13)
ALL THE TRUTH WAS YET TO COME CONCERN ADAM AND HIS DESCENDANT�S WHEN THE COMFORTERS COMES.

Response: --- I see, you can�t answer where the Bible says that Solomon and Jesus were supposedly with God in the beginning, --- because there is no Scripture to support this, --- or, that any other one who was born on earth, was there in the beginning, --- except God, His Word (Logos), and His Holy Spirit who are identified in Genesis 1:1-3.

--- God�s diversity is part of His �Being� and they are all from these seven, which we may call attributes, if that is a worthy word:
God is: Sovereign, Transcendent, Omnipotent, Omniscient, Omnipresent, Self-Existent and Self Sufficient.
--- God could not be compared to anything that He created through His Word (Logos).
Someone said, --- �God is of Divine Essence which is above Personhood.�

God, --- the Word (Logos), --- and the Holy Spirit, cannot be seen, so God had to be made Manifest or �revealed� in something, or someone, that can be seen.
For instance, when God first revealed Himself to Moses, it says this in Exodus 3:
1 Now Moses was tending the flock of Jethro his father-in-law, the priest of Midian. And he led the flock to the back of the desert, and came to Horeb, the mountain of God.
2 And the Angel of the Lord appeared to him in a flame of fire from the midst of a bush. So he looked, and behold, the bush was burning with fire, but the bush was not consumed.
3 Then Moses said, �I will now turn aside and see this great sight, why the bush does not burn.�
4 So when the Lord saw that he turned aside to look, God called to him from the midst of the bush and said, �Moses, Moses!� --- And he said, �Here I am.�
5 Then He said, �Do not draw near this place. Take your sandals off your feet, for the place where you stand is holy ground.�
6 Moreover He said, �I am the God of your father�the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.� And Moses hid his face, for he was afraid to look upon God.

God is not a burning bush, but God, through the Angel of the Lord, said from the burning bush, �I am the God of your father�the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.�

--- While some believe that Jesus was in heaven with God from the beginning, they misunderstand the Scriptures that say, --- the Word (Logos), who WAS from the beginning, was sent down from God, to indwell a human body for 33 years on earth. --- The Word was from heaven, but the body was born on earth, even as it says in Surah 3:
45 Behold! the angel said: "O Mary! God giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held in honour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) those nearest to God.�

It is actually the �Word� that was held in honor in heaven, being the nearest to God, --- and held in honor on earth, as God�s power was Manifested through the Word, --- in speaking through Jesus as the Voice of God, when He said, in John 8:58, �Before Abraham was I AM.� --- And through the Holy Spirit, performed the miracles of healing, casting out of evil spirits, and raising the dead, --- as in Surah 3:49 and 5:110.
And the Word will be honored in the hereafter forever, as written in the Revelation. --- Sometimes called by His full name, �The Word of God� --- and sometimes as --- the resurrected �Jesus.� --- Also called KING of Kings and LORD of Lords

--- This Word came down and indwelt the body of Jesus, along with the Holy Spirit of God.
And the Holy Spirit was the Comforter, that is written about in John 14, 15, and 16.

--- Both the Word and the Holy Spirit were Manifestations of God that indwelt Jesus on earth, and Jesus was the Vessel of God, --- but not God Himself, --- as Almighty God never leaves heaven.

And a verse says, �God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto Himself.�
(More on the Comforter later)

Placid

CRUCIFIED OR CRUCIPLAYED : ...

Thu, 28 Feb 2013 22:24:34 +0000

Author: truthnowcome
Subject: 22951
Posted: 28 February 2013 at 10:24pm

<>

Originally posted by Placid

Hi Truthnow,

Solomon wrote the Proverbs in poetic form and Proverb 8 is entitled �Praise ofWisdom�.
Here he takes an attribute of God, which is �Wisdom� and builds on it to revealthat Almighty God created all things through His Wisdom.
--- The fact that God gave wisdom to Solomon, and to Jesus, does not place themin the beginning with God.

12 �I, wisdom, dwell with prudence,
And find out knowledge and discretion.
22 �The Lord possessed me at the beginning of His way,
Before His works of old.
23 I have been established from everlasting,
From the beginning, before there was ever an earth.
24 When there were no depths I was brought forth,
When there were no fountains abounding with water.
25 Before the mountains were settled,
Before the hills, I was brought forth;
29 When He marked out the foundations of the earth,
30 Then I was beside Him as a mastercraftsman;
And I was daily His delight, Rejoicing always beforeHim,

God was �All Wise� before He created the earth,so you have to rethink whether Solomon was there, when he only existedthousands of years later as a created being.

--- And this was Solomon�s message to the readers:
32 �Now therefore, listen to me, my children, For blessed are those who keep myways.
33 Hear instruction and be wise, And do not disdain it.
34 Blessed is the man who listens to me (Wisdom), Watching daily at my gates,Waiting at the posts of my doors.
35 For whoever finds me (Wisdom) finds life, And obtains favor from the Lord;
36 But he who sins against me wrongs his own soul; All those who hate me lovedeath.�

--- Note: --- Where does it say these things in the Bible?
Quote: --- That there were any 'born' to Adam and Eve before their fall fromgrace, and then, their being cast out and down to the earth in a flesh andblood body?

Where does it say 'spirits' were assigned to any, before the life that God gavethem when they were born?

And where does it say this?
HE THEN EXPLAIN HIS ORIGIN JUST AS JESUS (S) DID IN HIS REIGN. REMEMBER JESUS(S) CLAIMED HE WAS BACK THERE IN THE BEGINNING? SO WAS SOLOMON.

Placid

Pacid, the title did not reveal to Solomon, that is the author opinionbase on his limited understanding. It was Solomon who was describing him selfin a poetic form if that what youwant to call it. God Almighty didn�t �brought forth Wisdom� God is the Wisdom (the all wise). I saw you mentioned there that:�God was the all wise� Well then, God does not separate himself from hisattributes: His wisdom does not �rejoicewith Him and be beside him� Wake upmy friend placid! Attributes of God does not �rejoice and be beside him!

It was before the foundation of the earth God createsSolomon and as I have established before not Solomon alone, it was Adam and allhis descendant�s.

Originally posted by Placid

HiTruthnow,

--- Note: --- Where does it say these things in the Bible?
Quote: --- That there were any 'born' to Adam and Eve before their fall fromgrace, and then, their being cast out and down to the earth in a flesh andblood body?

Where does it say 'spirits' were assigned to any, before the life that God gavethem when they were born?

And where does it say this?
HE THEN EXPLAIN HIS ORIGIN JUST AS JESUS (S) DID IN HIS REIGN. REMEMBER JESUS(S) CLAIMED HE WAS BACK THERE IN THE BEGINNING? SO WAS SOLOMON.

Placid

Placid, you were told to believe in the �Bible� (Collection of books) soI cant answer your question base on how you ask it; however, If you are tryingto ask me where it mentioned those things from God�s previous revelation, wellthem, It was not revealed to the former Prophets but it revealed to the LastProphet [Muhammad (S)] and it mentioned in the Qur�an. Did not Jesus (S) said: ��I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannotbear them now.Howbeit when he, the Spirit of Truth,is come, he willguide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but what he hears.� (John.16:12-13)

ALLTHE TRUTH WAS YET TO COME CONCERN ADAM AND HIS DESCENDANT�S WHEN THE COMFORTERSCOMES.

BeZainool

Edited by truthnowcome - 28 February 2013 at 10:26pm

CRUCIFIED OR CRUCIPLAYED : Hi Truthnow, Solomon wrote the...

Wed, 27 Feb 2013 08:36:27 +0000

Author: Placid
Subject: 22951
Posted: 27 February 2013 at 8:36am

Hi Truthnow,

Solomon wrote the Proverbs in poetic form and Proverb 8 is entitled �Praise of Wisdom�.
Here he takes an attribute of God, which is �Wisdom� and builds on it to reveal that Almighty God created all things through His Wisdom.
--- The fact that God gave wisdom to Solomon, and to Jesus, does not place them in the beginning with God.

12 �I, wisdom, dwell with prudence,
And find out knowledge and discretion.
22 �The Lord possessed me at the beginning of His way,
Before His works of old.
23 I have been established from everlasting,
From the beginning, before there was ever an earth.
24 When there were no depths I was brought forth,
When there were no fountains abounding with water.
25 Before the mountains were settled,
Before the hills, I was brought forth;
29 When He marked out the foundations of the earth,
30 Then I was beside Him as a master craftsman;
And I was daily His delight, Rejoicing always before Him,

God was �All Wise� before He created the earth, so you have to rethink whether Solomon was there, when he only existed thousands of years later as a created being.

--- And this was Solomon�s message to the readers:
32 �Now therefore, listen to me, my children, For blessed are those who keep my ways.
33 Hear instruction and be wise, And do not disdain it.
34 Blessed is the man who listens to me (Wisdom), Watching daily at my gates, Waiting at the posts of my doors.
35 For whoever finds me (Wisdom) finds life, And obtains favor from the Lord;
36 But he who sins against me wrongs his own soul; All those who hate me love death.�

--- Note: --- Where does it say these things in the Bible?
Quote: --- That there were any 'born' to Adam and Eve before their fall from grace, and then, their being cast out and down to the earth in a flesh and blood body?

Where does it say 'spirits' were assigned to any, before the life that God gave them when they were born?

And where does it say this?
HE THEN EXPLAIN HIS ORIGIN JUST AS JESUS (S) DID IN HIS REIGN. REMEMBER JESUS (S) CLAIMED HE WAS BACK THERE IN THE BEGINNING? SO WAS SOLOMON.

Placid

CRUCIFIED OR CRUCIPLAYED : <...

Wed, 27 Feb 2013 01:23:35 +0000

Author: truthnowcome
Subject: 22951
Posted: 27 February 2013 at 1:23am

<>

Originally posted by Placid

Hi Truthnow,

That is quite interesting that you first refer to Wisdom, which was with Godfrom the beginning, as being the Holy Spirit.

Now you say the Wisdom was Solomon, who became the King of Israel about 1015BC.

Solomon was given wisdom, but he was born on earth of King David, --- so, youwill have to try again.

Placid, I thing you misunderstood me. In my post I have establish:When God Almighty created Adam at the beginning, from Adam he brought forth allthe children of Adam that would include SOLOMON; they were all created there inthe beginning before the earth was created, they were in a spiritual form,there were not sinful, the were holy, all of us were holy spirits before wewere put in the body to become A LIVING SOUL; and because Solomon was the wisesin his time God Almighty described him as wisdom. He said:

8 Doth not wisdom cry? and understanding putforth her voice?

DOES �WISDOM REALLY �CRY�?

²She standeth in the top of highplaces, by the way in the places of the paths.

DOES WISDOM �STAND ON SOME PLACE�?

³She crieth at the gates, at theentry of the city, at the coming in at the doors.

DOES WISDOM CRY? AND CRY AT WHICH GATE, CITY AND DOOR?

⁴Unto you, O men, I call; and myvoice is to the sons of man.

HOW DOES WISDOM CALL? DOES ANYONE EVER HEAR WISDOMVOICE?

⁵O ye simple, understand wisdom: and,ye fools, be ye of an understanding heart.

O YE SIMPLE, UNDERSTAND WISDOM. IT IS GOD ALMIGHTY WHOWERE DISCRIBING SOLOMON AS WISDOM; HE WAS THE WISES.

SOLOMON SPEAKS:

⁶Hear; for I (Solomon) will speak ofexcellent things; and the opening of MY LIPS shall be right things.

DOES WISDOM HAVE �LIPS�?

⁷For mymouth shall speak truth; and wickedness is an abomination to my lips.

AND �MOUTH�?

⁸All the words of my mouthare in righteousness; there is nothing froward or perverse in them.

⁹They are all plain to him thatunderstandeth, and right to them that find knowledge.

WHEN HE SPEAKS IT WAS VERY EASY TO UNDERSTANDESPECIALLY WHO SEEK KNOWLEDGE.

¹⁰Receive my instruction,and not silver; and knowledge rather thanchoice gold.

¹¹For wisdom is better than rubies;and all the things that may be desired are not to be compared to it.

HIS (SOLOMON) INSTRUCTION IS �KNOWLEDGE� AND KNOWLEDGETHAT COMES FROM SOLOMEN IS BETTER THAN RUBIES AND ALL WORLY THINGS THAT THEHEART DESIRE.

¹²I wisdom dwell with prudence, andfind out knowledge of witty inventions.

I SOLOMON DWELL WITH PRUDENCE AND FIND OUT KNOWLEDGE OF WITTY INVENTIONS.

¹³The fear of the Lord is to hate evil: pride, andarrogancy, and the evil way, and the froward mouth, do I hate.

¹⁴Counsel is mine, and sound wisdom: Iam understanding; I have strength.

DOES WISDOM COUNCLE? SOLOMOM IS SAYING: COUNCLE IS HISDUTY AND TO COUNCLE WITH SOUND �WISDOM� AND UNDERSTANDING; HE SAID: �I HAVESTRENGHT�. DOES �WISDOM� HAVE MUSCLES?

¹⁵By me kings reign, and princesdecree justice.

¹⁶By me princes rule, and nobles, evenall the judges of the earth.

¹⁷I love them that love me; and thosethat seek me early shall find me.

¹⁸Riches and honour are with me; yea,durable riches and righteousness.

¹⁹My fruit is better than gold, yea,than fine gold; and my revenue than choice silver.

²⁰I lead in the way ofrighteousness, in the midst of the paths of judgment:

²¹That I may cause those that love me to inherit substance; and I willfill their treasures.

SOLOMOM HAD POWER OVER ALL IN HIS RAIGN, HE LEAD IN THE WAY OFRIGHTIOUSNESS AND SOUND JUDGMENT, HE WAS THE WELTHEST IN HIS REIGN.

HE THEN EXPLAIN HIS ORIGIN JUST AS JESUS (S) DID IN HIS REIGN. REMEMBERJESUS (S) CLAIMED HE WAS BACK THERE IN THE BEGINNING? SO WAS SOLOMON.

²²The Lord (Gog Almighty) possessed me (Solomon) in the beginningof his way, before his (God Almighty) works of old.

²³I (Solomon) was set up from everlasting,from the beginning, or ever the earth was.

²⁴When there were no depths, I (Solomon) was brought forth; when there were no fountains abounding with water.

²⁵Before the mountains were settled,before the hills was I(Solomon) brought forth:

²⁶WHILE AS YEThe (God Almighty) hadnot made the earth, nor the fields, nor the highest part of thedust of the world.

²⁷When he (God Almighty) prepared the heavens, I (Solomon) WAS THERE: when he (God Almighty) set a compass upon the face of thedepth:

²⁸When he (GD) established the cloudsabove: when he (GD) strengthened the fountains of the deep:

²⁹When he (GD) gave to the sea his decree,that the waters should not pass his commandment: when he (GD) appointed thefoundations of the earth:

³⁰Then I (Solomon) was by him (God Almighty),as one brought up with him: and I (Solomon) was daily his delight, rejoicingalways before him;

³¹Rejoicing in the habitable part of hisearth; and my delights were with the sons of men.

³²Now therefore hearken unto me, O yechildren: for blessed are they that keep my ways.

³³Hear instruction, and be wise, andrefuse it not.

³⁴Blessed is the man that heareth me,watching daily at my gates, waiting at the posts of my doors.

³⁵For whoso findeth me findeth life, andshall obtain favour of the Lord.

³⁶But he that sinneth against me wrongethhis own soul: all they that hate me love death.

TNC

CRUCIFIED OR CRUCIPLAYED : Hi Truthnow, That is quite interesting...

Tue, 26 Feb 2013 13:41:13 +0000

Author: Placid
Subject: 22951
Posted: 26 February 2013 at 1:41pm

Hi Truthnow,

That is quite interesting that you first refer to Wisdom, which was with God from the beginning, as being the Holy Spirit.

Now you say the Wisdom was Solomon, who became the King of Israel about 1015 BC.

Solomon was given wisdom, but he was born on earth of King David, --- so, you will have to try again.

CRUCIFIED OR CRUCIPLAYED : <...

Sat, 23 Feb 2013 01:30:33 +0000

Author: truthnowcome
Subject: 22951
Posted: 23 February 2013 at 1:30am

<>

Originally posted by Webber

Originally posted by truthnowcome

<>

Note: All spirits that proceeded from Allah (S)are holy, thus, they are Holy Spirits!

Jinn too?

When I speak of Spirit it is the"Ruh" and not Jinn although Jinn are spiritual being. There are alsoGood jinn and evil Jinn.

Click on this link and watch the video:<>

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=_kpBGjh-fiE

Br. zainool

CRUCIFIED OR CRUCIPLAYED : ...

Sat, 23 Feb 2013 01:09:48 +0000

Author: truthnowcome
Subject: 22951
Posted: 23 February 2013 at 1:09am

<>

Originally posted by Placid

Hi Truthnow,

Quoted from about two thirds of the way down page 11 concerning the HolySpirit:
Quote: It is also in the O.T. --- Prophet Solomon is reported in Proverbs8:22-27 (NIV) to have said:
"22 The LORD brought me forth as the first of his works, before his deedsof old; 23 I was appointed from eternity, from the beginning, before the worldbegan. 24 When there were no oceans, I was given birth, when there were nosprings abounding with water; 25 before the mountains were settled in place,before the hills, I was given birth, 26 before he made the earth or its fieldsor any of the dust of the world. 27 I was there when he set the heavens inplace, when he marked out the horizon on the face of the deep,

Response: --- You do a great injustice to the Scripture to take something outof context to support an inaccurate argument. --- As you will notice Proverb 8refers to WISDOM.

Often, Solomon used poetry to describe the attributes of God, and this Proverbis called:
The Excellence of Wisdom

8:1 Does not wisdom cry out,
And understanding lift up her voice?
2 She takes her stand on the top of the high hill,
Beside the way, where the paths meet.
3 She cries out by the gates, at the entry of the city,
At the entrance of the doors:
4 �To you, O men, I call,
And my voice is to the sons of men.
5 O you simple ones, understand prudence,
And you fools, be of an understanding heart.
6 Listen, for I will speak of excellent things,
And from the opening of my lips will come right things;
7 For my mouth will speak truth;

11 11 For wisdom is better than rubies,
And all the things one may desire cannot be compared with her.
12 �I, wisdom, dwell with prudence,
And find out knowledge and discretion.

--- And all of the verses refer to Wisdom which was an �attribute� of God fromthe beginning.

Placid

Nice try, but it is verse I to 21 spoke of God Almighty.

22 to 30 are about Prophet Solomon (S).I add brackets to expose you blindness.