IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : From where did the trinity teaching come? http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum This is an XML content feed of; IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum : Interfaith Dialogue : From where did the trinity teaching come? Wed, 19 Jun 2013 01:14:14 +0000 Wed, 27 Feb 2013 01:01:24 +0000 http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/tech/rss Web Wiz Forums 8.04 360 www.IslamiCity.com/forum/RSS_post_feed.asp?TID=12519 IslamiCity Forum - Islamic Discussion Forum http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_images/ICForum_Logo.gif http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum From where did the trinity teaching come? : Originally posted by CaringheartGreetings... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=174564#174564 Author: Rational
Subject: 12519
Posted: 27 February 2013 at 1:01am

Originally posted by Caringheart

Greetings Rational,

I am quoting Webber;
"The Bible is not a religion, it's an account of the Prophets, and of Jesus and His teachings."

Smile
Caringheart

But previously you said that the Bible is the "word of God" and that to you, religion is the word of God. Make up your mind maybe?

And now you're using Webber by claiming that the Bible is not religion. So you don't have a religion? I showed you from the Bible, where Jesus clearly uses the term "religion".


Edited by Rational - 27 February 2013 at 12:49pm]]> Wed, 27 Feb 2013 01:01:24 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=174564#174564 From where did the trinity teaching come? : Greetings Rational,I am quoting... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=174561#174561 Author: Caringheart
Subject: 12519
Posted: 26 February 2013 at 3:56pm

Greetings Rational,

I am quoting Webber;
"The Bible is not a religion, it's an account of the Prophets, and of Jesus and His teachings."

Smile
Caringheart
]]> Tue, 26 Feb 2013 15:56:21 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=174561#174561 From where did the trinity teaching come? : Assalamo alaik Caringheart, Originally... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=174560#174560 Author: Rational
Subject: 12519
Posted: 26 February 2013 at 3:46pm

Assalamo alaik Caringheart,

Originally posted by Caringheart


Greetings Rational,

I say;
Seek Truth, not religion.
Religion is a thing of man... the constructs of man.

Seek God, seek Truth.
The Truth is in the Word of God, not in the things of man.
I seek to remove the stumbling blocks from people's paths, not to place them.

What I have is the Word of God.

I see problems in all 'religions' of man.  People believe in the religion and forget God.
There is no, as you put it, 'one true religion'.  God has sought to lead all of the people.  There are believers... true seekers... and there are unbelievers, in all walks of life.  Religion is a thing of man.  Seeking God is a personal thing.


If I were to support any man-made construct of faith I would still say that the Catholic church is the church that Christ built, and authorized.

18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. (the words of Jesus)

But even that has gone somewhat astray because of man, and the Protestants sought to correct those things they thought to be in error... however these also are the constructs of man, and then all the other denominations that came after... but the Catholic church still has the direction from the Apostle's of Christ at its heart.

And at the heart of it all is God's Word itself.  It is this to which we must look, and within our hearts to hear the voice of God.

Salaam,
Caringheart

You see, you are lost without your religion.
I am not.
I have God.


Is the Bible your religion? (yes/no)




Edited by Rational - 26 February 2013 at 3:47pm]]> Tue, 26 Feb 2013 15:46:43 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=174560#174560 From where did the trinity teaching come? : Assalam... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=174556#174556 Author: Rational
Subject: 12519
Posted: 26 February 2013 at 2:23pm

Assalam Webber,

Originally posted by Webber

Ameen ya Rub al-alameen
Is that like a high five?

No it's nothing like that at all. It's me asking Allah (subhanaho wa ta'ala) for the same prayer that Nur_Ilahi asked for.

Originally posted by Webber

Hey guys, let's not get too hard on Caringheart here. I think what he means is organized religion.

No one is being hard on anyone. Caringheart is making no sense what so ever and he needs to be told. You can't say you don't believe in religion and it's a thing of man, but at the same time believe in a religion. Caringheart has a religion, it's the word of God (as he claimed). The Bible is the word of God (as he claimed). He has a religion and it's the Bible. If he continues to insist on this statement then he is admitting that the Bible is a thing of man. The book that he quotes from. If he is referring to "organized religion", then he should say so. But no, Caringheart is insinuating that all religions are a thing of man, which ironically includes the Bible. Caringheart defines the word "religion", and says that he adheres to it, but then says that he doesn't believe it.

I am a Muslim and my religion (deen) is Islam. I believe that being a muslim, by submitting to Allah (and not Jesus (Alaihi Salam) or anything else), is the one true religion for all man kind. Beyond that, I don't follow or belong to any sect, group or mathhab (ie. Abu Hanifa, Malik, Shafi and Ahmad ibn Hanbal). I love and respect those scholars, but I don't belong to one of them. If I was to follow the teachings of a person, it would be Mohammad (salla Allah alyhi wasallam) because he was sent by the One, the Creator, Allah (subhanaho wa ta'ala). I follow the Quran and the teachings of the messenger (pbuh). I grow up as a sunni (from the word "Sunnah"). But I prefer to call myself a muslim and that's all. We are forbidden from creating sects or deviations within our deen from Allah (azza wa jall).

Indeed, those who have divided their religion and become sects - you, [O Muhammad], are not [associated] with them in anything. Their affair is only [left] to Allah; then He will inform them about what they used to do. (159)

But the people divided their religion among them into sects - each faction, in what it has, rejoicing. (53) So leave them in their confusion for a time. (54)

Indeed this, your religion, is one religion, and I am your Lord, so worship Me. (92) And [yet] they divided their affair among themselves, [but] all to Us will return. (93)

Say, "Obey Allah and the Messenger." But if they turn away - then indeed, Allah does not like the disbelievers. (32)

And do not be like the ones who became divided and differed after the clear proofs had come to them. And those will have a great punishment. (105)

Indeed, the religion in the sight of Allah is Islam. And those who were given the Scripture did not differ except after knowledge had come to them - out of jealous animosity between themselves. And whoever disbelieves in the verses of Allah, then indeed, Allah is swift in [taking] account. (19)

This day I have perfected for you your religion and completed My favor upon you and have approved for you Islam as religion. (3)

O you who have believed, fear Allah as He should be feared and do not die except as Muslims [in submission to Him]. (102) And hold firmly to the rope of Allah all together and do not become divided. And remember the favor of Allah upon you - when you were enemies and He brought your hearts together and you became, by His favor, brothers. And you were on the edge of a pit of the Fire, and He saved you from it. Thus does Allah make clear to you His verses that you may be guided. (103)


Edited by Rational - 26 February 2013 at 4:00pm]]> Tue, 26 Feb 2013 14:23:10 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=174556#174556 From where did the trinity teaching come? : Hi Webber, Very good post. http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=174551#174551 Author: Placid
Subject: 12519
Posted: 26 February 2013 at 12:47pm

Hi Webber,

Very good post.]]> Tue, 26 Feb 2013 12:47:44 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=174551#174551 From where did the trinity teaching come? : Ameen ya Rub al-alameenIs... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=174534#174534 Author: Webber
Subject: 12519
Posted: 25 February 2013 at 7:22pm

Ameen ya Rub al-alameen
Is that like a high five?
 
Hey guys, let's not get too hard on Caringheart here. I think what he means is organized religion.  Jesus never said He came to give us an organized religion. He gave us what we needed to know and the Holy Spirit to help us make it through.
 
The Bible is not a religion, it's an account of the Prophets, and of Jesus and His teachings. It follows Paul and the Apostles that wrote, through the building of churches and reproach to not only those who did not follow, but also to those who added rules to what they were taught, or mixed it with old beliefs, traditions, etc.
 
The word is "deviated".
 
The fact that there are so many denominations, sects, groups, "isms" within denominations and sects, is proof enough they are all deviations from the original truth.
 
Organized religion = deviation.
Causes division, (all the way to wars) between believers. God's will?
 
Anybody who believes that their one and only "ism" is the one and only way to Heaven, (or they can decide who else is or is not), better go back and read their inspired scriptures with humility.  
 
It's them man made, added rules that make an organized religion, not the straight up gospel of Jesus, nor Paul. 
 
Christianity should not be pegged as a religion, even if a church with a christian type name is full of Christians ever Sunday.
For starters, Islam is not full of Islamists but Muslims right?
 
Being a Christian is a personal walk with God. That's not so far from Islam. 
 
On Judgement day do you expect to be asked if you believed in a trinity? Or if you believe Jesus lived before the "no beginning"?
 
Jesus won't ask you if you thought you were predestined to be there.
What He will ask you is what you did for God. His God too btw. Although, you'll know it when you get there, He already knows your heart,  there won't be need for many words.
 
You don't need the man made rules getting in the way. The guys who take your tithes...
"But my religion let me"..."But my religion wouldn't let me"..."But the Pharasees said I could hate my enemy"...won't cut it. Will your Priest, Rabbi, Imam pull you through? He'll be busy answering for himself. It's just you and God.
 
The truth is in the word, not the labels.
 
 
 
]]> Mon, 25 Feb 2013 19:22:01 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=174534#174534 From where did the trinity teaching come? : Originally posted... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=174530#174530 Author: Caringheart
Subject: 12519
Posted: 25 February 2013 at 1:37pm

Originally posted by Rational

Originally posted by Caringheart

Semantics games. Ermm

You have no response. Only that it's "Semantics games". Everyone can see what you're doing. But you still insist.

What you're saying is dangerous. Your words can mislead a person from seeking the one true religion. You deny every religion then expect people to seek. It goes against your own signature "Let us seek Truth".

Don't confuse people by saying that you don't believe in religion while at the same time, you yourself have a religion

Greetings Rational,

I say;
Seek Truth, not religion.
Religion is a thing of man... the constructs of man.

Seek God, seek Truth.
The Truth is in the Word of God, not in the things of man.
I seek to remove the stumbling blocks from people's paths, not to place them.

What I have is the Word of God.

I see problems in all 'religions' of man.  People believe in the religion and forget God.
There is no, as you put it, 'one true religion'.  God has sought to lead all of the people.  There are believers... true seekers... and there are unbelievers, in all walks of life.  Religion is a thing of man.  Seeking God is a personal thing.

If I were to support any man-made construct of faith I would still say that the Catholic church is the church that Christ built, and authorized.

18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. (the words of Jesus)

But even that has gone somewhat astray because of man, and the Protestants sought to correct those things they thought to be in error... however these also are the constructs of man, and then all the other denominations that came after... but the Catholic church still has the direction from the Apostle's of Christ at its heart.

And at the heart of it all is God's Word itself.  It is this to which we must look, and within our hearts to hear the voice of God.

Salaam,
Caringheart

You see, you are lost without your religion.
I am not.
I have God.


Edited by Caringheart - 25 February 2013 at 1:57pm]]> Mon, 25 Feb 2013 13:37:18 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=174530#174530 From where did the trinity teaching come? : Originally posted by Nur_IlahiMay... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=174521#174521 Author: Rational
Subject: 12519
Posted: 25 February 2013 at 6:18am

Originally posted by Nur_Ilahi

May Allah bless you with hidayah.

Ameen ya Rub al-alameen

]]> Mon, 25 Feb 2013 06:18:11 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=174521#174521 From where did the trinity teaching come? : Originally posted by CaringheartSemantics... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=174519#174519 Author: Rational
Subject: 12519
Posted: 25 February 2013 at 5:55am

Originally posted by Caringheart

Semantics games. Ermm

You have no response. Only that it's "Semantics games". Everyone can see what you're doing. But you still insist.

What you're saying is dangerous. Your words can mislead a person from seeking the one true religion. You deny every religion then expect people to seek. It goes against your own signature "Let us seek Truth".

Don't confuse people by saying that you don't believe in religion while at the same time, you yourself have a religion


Edited by Rational - 25 February 2013 at 6:12am]]> Mon, 25 Feb 2013 05:55:51 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=174519#174519 From where did the trinity teaching come? : Greetings Nur_Ilahi,Did you read... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=174513#174513 Author: Caringheart
Subject: 12519
Posted: 24 February 2013 at 9:22pm

Greetings Nur_Ilahi,

Did you read my reply to you which is at the top of this page, dated Feb. 21, and all the posts that came after?

Salaam.
]]> Sun, 24 Feb 2013 21:22:48 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=174513#174513 From where did the trinity teaching come? : Originally posted by RationalDon't... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=174512#174512 Author: Nur_Ilahi
Subject: 12519
Posted: 24 February 2013 at 9:02pm

Originally posted by Rational

Don't confuse people by saying that you don't believe in religion while at the same time, you yourself have a religion.

I support you Bro.

Caringheart, if you don't believe in religion, then you should stop quoting from the Bible as it belongs to the religion of Christianity.

By the way, Caringheart, can a translation of a translation of a translation be called word of God?

Salam ]]> Sun, 24 Feb 2013 21:02:20 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=174512#174512 From where did the trinity teaching come? : Originally posted by Rational Assalamo... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=174479#174479 Author: Caringheart
Subject: 12519
Posted: 23 February 2013 at 11:49am

Originally posted by Rational

Assalamo Alaikom Caringheart,

BEFORE
Originally posted by Caringheart

I do not believe in religion. Religion is a thing of man.

AFTER
Originally posted by Caringheart

To me, Religion is following the Word of God. I believe the Bible is the Word of God

It's clear from you're own words, that the Bible is your Religion. Which implies that you have a religion, you believe in a religion. Everyone can see this.

But, previously you said that you don't believe in religion and that it's a thing of man. You just need to take this statement back and admit that you were wrong. Don't confuse people by saying that you don't believe in religion while at the same time, you yourself have a religion.


Semantics games. Ermm

]]> Sat, 23 Feb 2013 11:49:08 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=174479#174479 From where did the trinity teaching come? : Assalamo Alaikom Caringheart,BEFORE Originally... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=174476#174476 Author: Rational
Subject: 12519
Posted: 23 February 2013 at 4:29am

Assalamo Alaikom Caringheart,

BEFORE
Originally posted by Caringheart

I do not believe in religion. Religion is a thing of man.

AFTER
Originally posted by Caringheart

To me, Religion is following the Word of God. I believe the Bible is the Word of God

It's clear from you're own words, that the Bible is your Religion. Which implies that you have a religion, you believe in a religion. Everyone can see this.

But, previously you said that you don't believe in religion and that it's a thing of man. You just need to take this statement back and admit that you were wrong. Don't confuse people by saying that you don't believe in religion while at the same time, you yourself have a religion.


Edited by Rational - 23 February 2013 at 4:43am]]> Sat, 23 Feb 2013 04:29:41 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=174476#174476 From where did the trinity teaching come? : Originally posted by... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=174460#174460 Author: Caringheart
Subject: 12519
Posted: 22 February 2013 at 10:07am

Originally posted by Rational

Assalamo Alaikom Caringheart,

You're contradicting yourself again.

BEFORE
Originally posted by Caringheart

I do not believe in religion. Religion is a thing of man.

AFTER
Originally posted by Caringheart

Religion is following the Word of God

Is the Bible the Word of God?

Originally posted by Caringheart

Not concerning oneself with the things which man prescribes, but seeking the actual will of God.

Is the Bible the actual will of God?

Originally posted by Caringheart

I do not believe you have to belong to one of the religions structured by man to seek the will of God.

Is the Bible structured by man?

Originally posted by Caringheart

re·li·gion noun (from Merriam Webser online dictionary)
    the service and worship of God or the supernatural

I adhere to this definition. Smile

Do you adhere to this definition through the Bible?


Please do not take my words out of context.

So let's define religion...

to me it is following the Word of God...
key words here... to me

not concerning oneself with the things which man prescribes, but seeking the actual will of God.
  • "to visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world."
  • 'bridling the tongue'
  • "caring for their own family and so repaying their parents and grandparents, for this is pleasing to God."
I do not believe you have to belong to one of the religions structured by man to seek the will of God.
I believe we seek the will of God with our whole being, not by doing what man tells us we must do.


re·li·gion noun (from Merriam Webser online dictionary)
    the service and worship of God or the supernatural

I adhere to this definition. Smile

and yes, I believe the Bible is the Word of God given to us through men inspired of God.
"12 For the word of God is alive and active."
and you know this when you read it. Smile

"Now we believe, not because of thy saying: for we have heard Him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, the Saviour of the world."  (John 4)

Salaam.

Unfortunately you were denied reading my reply to Nur_Ilahi, due to moderator delays, before making your post.
(even though mine was written well before yours Disapprove)


Edited by Caringheart - 22 February 2013 at 10:33am]]> Fri, 22 Feb 2013 10:07:53 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=174460#174460 From where did the trinity teaching come? : Assalamo Alaikom... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=174456#174456 Author: Rational
Subject: 12519
Posted: 22 February 2013 at 4:02am

Assalamo Alaikom Caringheart,

You're contradicting yourself again.

BEFORE
Originally posted by Caringheart

I do not believe in religion. Religion is a thing of man.

AFTER
Originally posted by Caringheart

Religion is following the Word of God

Is the Bible the Word of God?

Originally posted by Caringheart

Not concerning oneself with the things which man prescribes, but seeking the actual will of God.

Is the Bible the actual will of God?

Originally posted by Caringheart

I do not believe you have to belong to one of the religions structured by man to seek the will of God.

Is the Bible structured by man?

Originally posted by Caringheart

re·li·gion noun (from Merriam Webser online dictionary)
    the service and worship of God or the supernatural

I adhere to this definition. Smile

Do you adhere to this definition through the Bible?


Edited by Rational - 22 February 2013 at 10:01am]]> Fri, 22 Feb 2013 04:02:23 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=174456#174456 From where did the trinity teaching come? : Greetings Nur_Ilahi,Men have... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=174442#174442 Author: Caringheart
Subject: 12519
Posted: 21 February 2013 at 9:21pm

Greetings Nur_Ilahi,

Men have structured the religion of Islam based on what Muhammad recited, and on observations from how Muhammad lived, and ruled.

Just as it was men that structured the Catholic church based on the words of Jesus that were passed on and recorded by the people who knew, and walked, and lived with Him.

Sometimes men get things wrong.  That is why I go to the Word of God, which is in the Bible, and not to church leaders, to know God. 

"For the word of God is living and active.... Hebrews 4:12"

be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.  Romans 12

21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:
22 You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires;
23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;
24 and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.

Salaam,
Caringheart


Edited by Caringheart - 22 February 2013 at 10:15am]]> Thu, 21 Feb 2013 21:21:12 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=174442#174442 From where did the trinity teaching come? : Salam Caringheart. Originally... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=174436#174436 Author: Nur_Ilahi
Subject: 12519
Posted: 21 February 2013 at 7:21pm

Salam Caringheart.

Originally posted by Caringheart

to me it is following the Word of God...

The question is how do you follow the word of God? Did God came down directly to you and teach you how to do things? Defintely not. He sent someone - someone close to Him - His Messenger, His Prophets - to show, to guide, to teach all His servants the correct way to win His Blessings.

Originally posted by Caringheart

not concerning oneself with the things which man prescribes, but seeking the actual will of God.

Another question -How do you know that what you are doing is the will of God? Did God speak directly to you and give instructions? Can you differentiate whether the voice in you is from God or from Satan?

The good examples that you stated above are true and pleasing to God. But don't you think that someone must have started this good deed and many followed? And could this someone be the Messenger, the Prophet that God had appointed, that God had taught to lead the way to His Pleasure?

Originally posted by Caringheart

I do not believe you have to belong to one of the religions structured by man to seek the will of God.


Not just any man CH. But a man specially appointed by God Himself. Anyway, think from another perspective. God is Merciful, God is Most Loving, God is Almighty. He knows that human being - His Beloved Creations - needs Him, seeks Him. How can He let us find Him without any clue, without any guide, without any knowledge? He - God most Gracious - sent His Messengers, His Prophets with Scriptures as a guidelines for us to worship Him. The Messengers and Prophets would leave this world, but His scriptures - His words in the language man understand -should be intact. He as God Almighty. He is the Preserver and He is The Knowledgeable.

Originally posted by Caringheart

the service and worship of God or the supernatural

The next question. How do we serve and worship God without someone to teach us, without a guide, without a beacon? Remember God is Most Merciful. His Scriptures sent to human beings is a proof of His Mercy. Without the Messengers and the scriptures, we surely would be blind. Not knowing right from wrong.

May Allah bless you with hidayah.
]]> Thu, 21 Feb 2013 19:21:16 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=174436#174436 From where did the trinity teaching come? : Greetings Rational,So let's... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=174428#174428 Author: Caringheart
Subject: 12519
Posted: 21 February 2013 at 1:41pm

Greetings Rational,

So let's define religion...
to me it is following the Word of God...
not concerning oneself with the things which man prescribes, but seeking the actual will of God.
  • "to visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world."
  • 'bridling the tongue'
  • "caring for their own family and so repaying their parents and grandparents, for this is pleasing to God."
I do not believe you have to belong to one of the religions structured by man to seek the will of God.

re·li·gion noun (from Merriam Webser online dictionary)
    the service and worship of God or the supernatural

I adhere to this definition. Smile
Salaam,
CH



Edited by Caringheart - 21 February 2013 at 1:43pm]]> Thu, 21 Feb 2013 13:41:40 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=174428#174428 From where did the trinity teaching come? : Originally posted... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=174426#174426 Author: Rational
Subject: 12519
Posted: 21 February 2013 at 3:00am

Originally posted by Caringheart

I do not believe in religion.  Religion is a thing of man.

Acts 26:5
"They knew me from the beginning, if they would testify, that according to the strictest sect of our religion, I lived as a Pharisee."

Timothy 5:4
"But if a widow has children or grandchildren, these should learn first of all to put their religion into practice by caring for their own family and so repaying their parents and grandparents, for this is pleasing to God."

James 1:26
"If any man among you seem to be religious and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man’s religion is vain."

James 1:27
"Pure religion, undefiled before God and the Father, is this: to visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world."


Edited by Rational - 21 February 2013 at 3:04am]]> Thu, 21 Feb 2013 03:00:02 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=174426#174426 From where did the trinity teaching come? : Originally posted by CaringheartI... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=174407#174407 Author: Nur_Ilahi
Subject: 12519
Posted: 20 February 2013 at 5:07pm

Originally posted by Caringheart

I believe in the Word of God. 

And the Bible which is not even mentioned in the Bible - a translation of a translation of a translation of a translation is a word of God? ]]> Wed, 20 Feb 2013 17:07:16 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=174407#174407 From where did the trinity teaching come? : I believe in the Word of God. ... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=174405#174405 Author: Caringheart
Subject: 12519
Posted: 20 February 2013 at 1:17pm

I believe in the Word of God. Smile]]> Wed, 20 Feb 2013 13:17:59 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=174405#174405 From where did the trinity teaching come? : On top of that you still claim... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=174404#174404 Author: honeto
Subject: 12519
Posted: 20 February 2013 at 12:39pm

On top of that you still claim that you do not believe in any religion?
Hasan]]> Wed, 20 Feb 2013 12:39:12 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=174404#174404 From where did the trinity teaching come? : Originally posted by honeto"One... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=174246#174246 Author: Caringheart
Subject: 12519
Posted: 14 February 2013 at 3:28pm

Originally posted by honeto


"One Day will the Hypocrites- men and women - say to the Believers: "Wait for us! Let us borrow (a Light) from your Light!" It will be said: "Turn ye back to your rear! then seek a Light (where ye can)!" So a wall will be put up betwixt them, with a gate therein. Within it will be Mercy throughout, and without it, all alongside, will be (Wrath and) Punishment!"57:13
Hasan

25 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.   2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.  3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:  4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.  5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.  6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.

7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.  8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.   9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.  10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.  11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.  12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.  13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.

The Parable of the Ten Virgins as told by Jesus. Smile



Edited by Caringheart - 14 February 2013 at 3:30pm]]> Thu, 14 Feb 2013 15:28:51 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=174246#174246 From where did the trinity teaching come? : Originally posted by honeto... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=174245#174245 Author: Caringheart
Subject: 12519
Posted: 14 February 2013 at 3:19pm

Originally posted by honeto

  and it's follower call it a religious book.


actually it's follower's call it the Word of God. Smile
]]> Thu, 14 Feb 2013 15:19:56 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=174245#174245 From where did the trinity teaching come? : Originally posted by Caringheart Originally... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=174240#174240 Author: honeto
Subject: 12519
Posted: 14 February 2013 at 12:25pm

Originally posted by Caringheart



Originally posted by honeto

Originally posted by Caringheart

Greetings Hasan,No worries, but thanks for you concern.I think you did not see my reply to Rational.and just to note, I certainly am not seeking to deceive anyone.  Are you?  I don't believe that you are.  My God does not teach deception, in fact my God abhors deceit.<br>

16 These six things doth the hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: 17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, 18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,

19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

Salaam,Caringheart

Caringheart,
in your post above you suggest you believe in God and what God teaches. On the same thread not too long ago you have said these words:"I have said before that I do not believe in religion. Religion is a thing of man."

How come, you say you do not believe in religion and you say it is man made and now you are preaching, religion.

Why this hypocrisy?
Hasan
Greetings Hasan,You confuse me.  How is it that you think I am 'preaching religion'?  Because I profess faith in God and in His Word?  This is not the same as religion.  Man creates religion by building structure around God's Word, but God and His Word, live in the heart, not in these structures, and strictures, of man.Salaam,Caringheart


CAringheart,
so now you are going to blame your hypocrisy on me too. On one side you say, religion is man made and on the other hand you say, Jesus, holy spirit and God are equal, and you use the Bible as your source which is claimed to be from God, and it's follower call it a religious book. And then you want to tell me that you do not believe or preach religion?
May God have mercy on you, take heed before it's too late friend. Don't pretend you have lost your mind, God only will not hold accountable those who are really insane.

"One Day will the Hypocrites- men and women - say to the Believers: "Wait for us! Let us borrow (a Light) from your Light!" It will be said: "Turn ye back to your rear! then seek a Light (where ye can)!" So a wall will be put up betwixt them, with a gate therein. Within it will be Mercy throughout, and without it, all alongside, will be (Wrath and) Punishment!"57:13
Hasan

Edited by honeto - 14 February 2013 at 12:26pm]]> Thu, 14 Feb 2013 12:25:19 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=174240#174240 From where did the trinity teaching come? : Originally posted by lydiaparkes52I... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=174238#174238 Author: Abu Loren
Subject: 12519
Posted: 14 February 2013 at 9:17am

Originally posted by lydiaparkes52

I do believe that no matter what is your religion, it you yourself can save you... There could be so many forms of GODS, but what matters most is believing. DOING things that are good for the people, serving and helping others, loving one another... THERE is no such religion that could tell that only they/followers of that religion will only be the ones to be save at the end of the world, NO. The ones who will be save are the ones that lives a life just as GOD wants us to be....

 
Salaam,
 
What you write here is probably perfect for a peace loving, drug inducing, hippy community. But the truth of the matter is that the Holy Qur'an is the Criterion Al Furqan with which everything is measured. There is only ONE God and He wants to be worshipped in a certain way that He has ordained with His laws and rules. Anything outside of this is sin.
]]> Thu, 14 Feb 2013 09:17:27 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=174238#174238 From where did the trinity teaching come? : Originally posted by lydiaparkes52I... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=174230#174230 Author: Rational
Subject: 12519
Posted: 14 February 2013 at 3:39am

Originally posted by lydiaparkes52

I do believe that no matter what is your religion, it you yourself can save you... There could be so many forms of GODS, but what matters most is believing. DOING things that are good for the people, serving and helping others, loving one another... THERE is no such religion that could tell that only they/followers of that religion will only be the ones to be save at the end of the world, NO. The ones who will be save are the ones that lives a life just as GOD wants us to be....


You're wrong. Stop being naive. Stop thinking you know everything. You don't! Allah has given us the way. Go seek it, Go read the Quran. What are you loosing?
]]> Thu, 14 Feb 2013 03:39:04 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=174230#174230 From where did the trinity teaching come? : I do believe that no matter what... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=174203#174203 Author: lydiaparkes52
Subject: 12519
Posted: 13 February 2013 at 7:14am

I do believe that no matter what is your religion, it you yourself can save you... There could be so many forms of GODS, but what matters most is believing. DOING things that are good for the people, serving and helping others, loving one another... THERE is no such religion that could tell that only they/followers of that religion will only be the ones to be save at the end of the world, NO. The ones who will be save are the ones that lives a life just as GOD wants us to be....

]]> Wed, 13 Feb 2013 07:14:24 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=174203#174203 From where did the trinity teaching come? : Originally posted by honeto Originally... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=174187#174187 Author: Caringheart
Subject: 12519
Posted: 12 February 2013 at 2:42pm

Originally posted by honeto

Originally posted by Caringheart

Greetings Hasan,No worries, but thanks for you concern.I think you did not see my reply to Rational.and just to note, I certainly am not seeking to deceive anyone.  Are you?  I don't believe that you are.  My God does not teach deception, in fact my God abhors deceit.<br>

16 These six things doth the hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him: 17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, 18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,

19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

Salaam,Caringheart

Caringheart,
in your post above you suggest you believe in God and what God teaches. On the same thread not too long ago you have said these words:"I have said before that I do not believe in religion. Religion is a thing of man."

How come, you say you do not believe in religion and you say it is man made and now you are preaching, religion.

Why this hypocrisy?
Hasan

Greetings Hasan,

You confuse me.  How is it that you think I am 'preaching religion'?  Because I profess faith in God and in His Word? 
This is not the same as religion.  Man creates religion by building structure around God's Word, but God and His Word, live in the heart, not in these structures, and strictures, of man.

Salaam,
Caringheart


Edited by Caringheart - 12 February 2013 at 2:45pm]]> Tue, 12 Feb 2013 14:42:19 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=174187#174187 From where did the trinity teaching come? : Originally posted by Caringheart Originally... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=174184#174184 Author: honeto
Subject: 12519
Posted: 12 February 2013 at 2:15pm

Originally posted by Caringheart




Originally posted by Rational


Originally posted by Caringheart


Greetings Nirvana,It comes from the things which Jesus Himself said, and which the Jews obviously took seriously since they took Him before the Roman courts to be tried and sentenced.Peace, or should I say namaste? [IMG]smileys/smiley1.gif" align="absmiddle" alt="Smile" />Caringheart
Assalamo alaik Caringheart,So the Jews also believe in the trinity?
Did the Jews believe in Jesus and the things He taught?They had Him condemned for blasphemy.


Caringheart,
the answer is no.
Hasan]]> Tue, 12 Feb 2013 14:15:32 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=174184#174184 From where did the trinity teaching come? : Originally posted by CaringheartGreetings... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=174175#174175 Author: honeto
Subject: 12519
Posted: 12 February 2013 at 12:34pm

Originally posted by Caringheart

Greetings Hasan,No worries, but thanks for you concern.I think you did not see my reply to Rational.and just to note, I certainly am not seeking to deceive anyone.  Are you?  I don't believe that you are.  My God does not teach deception, in fact my God abhors deceit.<div ="passage version-KJV result-text-style-normal text- ">

<span id="en-KJV-16557" ="text Prov-6-16"><sup ="versenum">16 These six things doth the <span style="font-variant: small-caps" ="small-caps">Lord</span> hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:</span>

<span id="en-KJV-16558" ="text Prov-6-17"><sup ="versenum">17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,</span>

<span id="en-KJV-16559" ="text Prov-6-18"><sup ="versenum">18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,</span>

<span id="en-KJV-16560" ="text Prov-6-19"><sup ="versenum">19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.</span>

Salaam,Caringheart



Caringheart,
in your post above you suggest you believe in God and what God teaches. On the same thread not too long ago you have said these words:"I have said before that I do not believe in religion. Religion is a thing of man."

How come, you say you do not believe in religion and you say it is man made and now you are preaching, religion.

Why this hypocrisy?
Hasan]]> Tue, 12 Feb 2013 12:34:34 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=174175#174175 From where did the trinity teaching come? : Originally posted by Rational Originally... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=173945#173945 Author: Caringheart
Subject: 12519
Posted: 07 February 2013 at 11:57am

Originally posted by Rational

Originally posted by Caringheart


Greetings Nirvana,

It comes from the things which Jesus Himself said, and which the Jews obviously took seriously since they took Him before the Roman courts to be tried and sentenced.

Peace, or should I say namaste? Smile
Caringheart

Assalamo alaik Caringheart,

So the Jews also believe in the trinity?


Did the Jews believe in Jesus and the things He taught?
They had Him condemned for blasphemy.


Edited by Caringheart - 07 February 2013 at 11:59am]]> Thu, 07 Feb 2013 11:57:31 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=173945#173945 From where did the trinity teaching come? : Originally posted by Caringheart Originally... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=173943#173943 Author: Rational
Subject: 12519
Posted: 07 February 2013 at 11:50am

Originally posted by Caringheart

Originally posted by nirvana

trinity? man's imagination has no boundaries. they can make anything up.


Greetings Nirvana,

It comes from the things which Jesus Himself said, and which the Jews obviously took seriously since they took Him before the Roman courts to be tried and sentenced.

Peace, or should I say namaste? Smile
Caringheart


Assalamo alaik Caringheart,

So the Jews also believe in the trinity?
]]> Thu, 07 Feb 2013 11:50:53 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=173943#173943 From where did the trinity teaching come? : Originally posted by Caringheart Originally... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=173936#173936 Author: nirvana
Subject: 12519
Posted: 07 February 2013 at 9:57am

Originally posted by Caringheart


Originally posted by nirvana

trinity? man's imagination has no boundaries. they can make anything up.
Greetings Nirvana,It comes from the things which Jesus Himself said, and which the Jews obviously took seriously since they took Him before the Roman courts to be tried and sentenced.Peace, or should I say namaste? [IMG]smileys/smiley1.gif" align="absmiddle" alt="Smile" />Caringheart
what exactly did Jesus say that amounts to trinity?]]> Thu, 07 Feb 2013 09:57:39 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=173936#173936 From where did the trinity teaching come? : Originally posted by nirvanatrinity?... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=173886#173886 Author: Caringheart
Subject: 12519
Posted: 06 February 2013 at 9:33am

Originally posted by nirvana

trinity? man's imagination has no boundaries. they can make anything up.


Greetings Nirvana,

It comes from the things which Jesus Himself said, and which the Jews obviously took seriously since they took Him before the Roman courts to be tried and sentenced.

Peace, or should I say namaste? Smile
Caringheart
]]> Wed, 06 Feb 2013 09:33:50 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=173886#173886 From where did the trinity teaching come? : trinity? man&#039;s imagination... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=173835#173835 Author: nirvana
Subject: 12519
Posted: 05 February 2013 at 5:59am

trinity? man's imagination has no boundaries. they can make anything up.]]> Tue, 05 Feb 2013 05:59:00 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=173835#173835 From where did the trinity teaching come? : Originally posted by honetoCaringheart,... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=173815#173815 Author: Caringheart
Subject: 12519
Posted: 04 February 2013 at 7:41pm

Originally posted by honeto

Caringheart,
but then why do you say things like:
"I have said before that I do not believe in religion. Religion is a thing of man."
How can you say opposing things just not far from each other in time!
May God have mercy on you.
Hasan


Greetings Hasan,

I don't understand your question.

Salaam,
Caringheart
]]> Mon, 04 Feb 2013 19:41:17 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=173815#173815 From where did the trinity teaching come? : Caringheart, but then why do... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=173802#173802 Author: honeto
Subject: 12519
Posted: 04 February 2013 at 3:18pm

Caringheart,
but then why do you say things like:
"I have said before that I do not believe in religion. Religion is a thing of man."
How can you say opposing things just not far from each other in time!
May God have mercy on you.
Hasan

Edited by honeto - 04 February 2013 at 3:19pm]]> Mon, 04 Feb 2013 15:18:34 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=173802#173802 From where did the trinity teaching come? : Greetings Hasan,No worries, but... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=173445#173445 Author: Caringheart
Subject: 12519
Posted: 28 January 2013 at 3:39pm

Greetings Hasan,

No worries, but thanks for you concern.
I think you did not see my reply to Rational.

and just to note, I certainly am not seeking to deceive anyone.  Are you?  I don't believe that you are.  My God does not teach deception, in fact my God abhors deceit.

16 These six things doth the Lord hate: yea, seven are an abomination unto him:

17 A proud look, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood,

18 An heart that deviseth wicked imaginations, feet that be swift in running to mischief,

19 A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

Salaam,
Caringheart
]]> Mon, 28 Jan 2013 15:39:47 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=173445#173445 From where did the trinity teaching come? : Originally posted by Caringheart Originally... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=173442#173442 Author: honeto
Subject: 12519
Posted: 28 January 2013 at 2:59pm

Originally posted by Caringheart



Originally posted by Rational



السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته
Originally posted by Caringheart

I have said before that I do not believe in religion.  Religion is a thing of man.
It's not the first time I hear this from a Christian. I just don't understand how you can be a Christian, believe in the Bible, wear the cross and at the same time, say you don't believe in religion and that it is a thing of man. What do you mean because this baffles me?
I follow Jesus, and I do not believe Jesus was teaching religion.  In fact if anything, He taught against the organized religion of men.I believe in the Bible because it is clearly true.I also don't wear outward signs of my faith in my Lord.  My only outward sign of my faith is my own countenance.  Jesus criticized the pharisees for their outward show of piety, with their fancy dress, and their need to call attention to themselves.

<span id="en-NIV-23924" ="text Matt-23-5"><span ="woj"><sup ="versenum">5 “Everything they do is done for people to see: They make their phylacteries wide and the tassels on their garments long..."</span></span>

<span id="en-NIV-23924" ="text Matt-23-5"><span ="woj"></span></span><span id="en-NIV-23925" ="text Matt-23-6"><span ="woj"></span></span><span id="en-NIV-23926" ="text Matt-23-7"><span ="woj"></span></span>

The message of Jesus was to follow God's laws and to love one another... to demonstrate the Love of God.  He wanted His good news to go out to all people, spread and told by ordinary people to others as they would meet them.  He taught us simply to be good to one another... that is what fulfills the laws of God.

<span id="en-NIV-23909" ="text="" matt-22-36"=""><sup ="versenum"="">36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”</span>

<span id="en-NIV-23910" ="text="" matt-22-37"=""><sup ="versenum"="">37 Jesus replied: <span ="woj"="">“‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’</span></span> <span id="en-NIV-23911" ="text="" matt-22-38"=""><span ="woj"=""><sup ="versenum"="">38 This is the first and greatest commandment.</span></span> <span id="en-NIV-23912" ="text="" matt-22-39"=""><span ="woj"=""><sup ="versenum"="">39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’</span></span> <span id="en-NIV-23913" ="text="" matt-22-40"=""><span ="woj"=""><sup ="versenum"="">40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”I follow Jesus and His Word.Men make rules and build structures.Does God live in a building?  or in our hearts?[IMG]smileys/smiley27.gif" align="absmiddle" alt="Heart" /></span></span>


Caringheart,
I find you extremely confused and close to a breaking point. Please take care of yourself. Keep your focus and I will pray for you.
Hasan]]> Mon, 28 Jan 2013 14:59:56 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=173442#173442 From where did the trinity teaching come? : Originally posted by Rationa... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=173441#173441 Author: honeto
Subject: 12519
Posted: 28 January 2013 at 2:42pm

Originally posted by Rational



السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته
Originally posted by Caringheart

I have said before that I do not believe in religion.  Religion is a thing of man.
It's not the first time I hear this from a Christian. I just don't understand how you can be a Christian, believe in the Bible, wear the cross and at the same time, say you don't believe in religion and that it is a thing of man. What do you mean because this baffles me?


It is a trick they use, seeking to deceive others, but they only deceive themselves.
Hasan]]> Mon, 28 Jan 2013 14:42:01 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=173441#173441 From where did the trinity teaching come? : Originally posted by Caringheart &#034;The... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=173440#173440 Author: honeto
Subject: 12519
Posted: 28 January 2013 at 2:38pm

Originally posted by Caringheart


"The reality is that human mind is so innovative that it will find explanations for anything, that pleases him/her."and some minds are so closed they will staunchly stick to whatever has been told to them without investigation.




sounds familiar Caringheart?

Hasan]]> Mon, 28 Jan 2013 14:38:49 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=173440#173440 From where did the trinity teaching come? : Originally posted by Rat... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=173320#173320 Author: Caringheart
Subject: 12519
Posted: 25 January 2013 at 6:36am

Originally posted by Rational

السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته
Originally posted by Caringheart

I have said before that I do not believe in religion.  Religion is a thing of man.

It's not the first time I hear this from a Christian. I just don't understand how you can be a Christian, believe in the Bible, wear the cross and at the same time, say you don't believe in religion and that it is a thing of man. What do you mean because this baffles me?


I follow Jesus, and I do not believe Jesus was teaching religion.  In fact if anything, He taught against the organized religion of men.
I believe in the Bible because it is clearly true.
I also don't wear outward signs of my faith in my Lord.  My only outward sign of my faith is my own countenance.  Jesus criticized the pharisees for their outward show of piety, with their fancy dress, and their need to call attention to themselves.

5 “Everything they do is done for people to see: They make their phylacteries wide and the tassels on their garments long..."


The message of Jesus was to follow God's laws and to love one another... to demonstrate the Love of God.  He wanted His good news to go out to all people, spread and told by ordinary people to others as they would meet them.  He taught us simply to be good to one another... that is what fulfills the laws of God.

36 “Teacher, which is the greatest commandment in the Law?”

37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

I follow Jesus and His Word.
Men make rules and build structures.
Does God live in a building?  or in our hearts?
Heart


Edited by Caringheart - 25 January 2013 at 6:49am]]> Fri, 25 Jan 2013 06:36:47 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=173320#173320 From where did the trinity teaching come? : &#1575;&#1604;&#1587;&#1604;&#1575;&#1605;... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=173309#173309 Author: Rational
Subject: 12519
Posted: 24 January 2013 at 11:29pm

السلام عليكم ورحمة الله وبركاته

Originally posted by Caringheart

I have said before that I do not believe in religion.  Religion is a thing of man.

It's not the first time I hear this from a Christian. I just don't understand how you can be a Christian, believe in the Bible, wear the cross and at the same time, say you don't believe in religion and that it is a thing of man. What do you mean because this baffles me?


Edited by Rational - 24 January 2013 at 11:31pm]]> Thu, 24 Jan 2013 23:29:22 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=173309#173309 From where did the trinity teaching come? : Greetings Hasan,I&#039;m... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=173296#173296 Author: Caringheart
Subject: 12519
Posted: 24 January 2013 at 6:01pm

Greetings Hasan,

I'm sorry I don't have time to elaborate my thoughts properly, so I ask that you will forgive me if they are a bit disjointed, but I wanted to reply to you before I would forget to do so.  So if you can bear with me.

I have said before that I do not believe in religion.  Religion is a thing of man.  I believe in what God reveals to me... Spirit, Truth, and in His Word. 
I believe it is our duty... that God wants us to see past man and his limited thinking, and discern good forces, from evil forces.

Jesus said; "the only way to the Father is through the Son"
This I believe.  I believe in Jesus and I believe in His words.
However, that being said, I also believe that God has sent many teachers, to all peoples, to lead them to good and away from evil.    I do believe there are many who are on God's path, seeking Him, seeking good and not evil.  So I do not believe all people of one faith, i.e., 'religion', or another, are astray.  If they are following the messenger that God sent to them, if they are seeking good, then they are not astray.  I have seen God's ways in Mormons, in Hindus, in muslims, in Buddhists, yogi's, Christians, Jews... I don't think there is a single subset of humans that I would say I can not see some of God's ways in.
Now, when Jesus returns however, all will see... no matter what faith they have been following, that Jesus is the way to God.  Those who have been seeking God(the Father, the Creator, the Supreme Being).


The old testament reveals that God is going to "do a new thing".  It only somewhat reveals what this new thing will be.  The mystery of the new testament is hidden in the old.
But when Jesus comes it is revealed.

I can not deny Jesus, and it is so easy to see all Truth revealed in reading the old testament.  The things the old testament spoke of have come, and are coming, to pass.

This is from the book of 2 Samuel:
         "the word of the Lord came unto Nathan"
and he spoke to David these words:
12 And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.
13 He shall build an house for my name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom for ever.
14 I will be his father, and he shall be my son.
and again in Chronicles:
11 And it shall come to pass, when thy days be expired that thou must go to be with thy fathers, that I will raise up thy seed after thee, which shall be of thy sons; and I will establish his kingdom.
12 He shall build me an house, and I will establish his throne for ever.
13 I will be his father, and he shall be my son: and I will not take my mercy away from him, as I took it from him that was before thee:
14 But I will settle him in mine house and in my kingdom for ever: and his throne shall be established for evermore.
15 According to all these words, and according to all this vision, so did Nathan speak unto David.
This was the prophesied 'seed of David', whom Jesus was.
This is the mystery hidden in the old testament which was revealed in the new testament by Jesus' coming.

Then God said, "Let Us make man in Our image, according to Our likeness; and let them rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over the cattle and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creeps on the earth." (Genesis 1:26)

Then the LORD God said, "Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, lest he stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever"-- (Genesis 3:22)

Here is a good teaching on the subject if you really are interested;
http://www.godandscience.org/apologetics/triunity.html

Wishing you well,
CH

Blessed be God forever


Edited by Caringheart - 24 January 2013 at 6:19pm]]> Thu, 24 Jan 2013 18:01:24 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=173296#173296 From where did the trinity teaching come? : Carinheart, and the reality is... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=173277#173277 Author: honeto
Subject: 12519
Posted: 24 January 2013 at 12:01pm

Carinheart,
and the reality is that the same source you quoted from contradicts on many issues including the Trinity.
You and those like you claim that all three of the Trinity are equal. A little study of that claim in the Bible reveals that they are not. The OT is free from the concept of Trinity, and Jesus himself was a follower of the OT. It gets funnier and funnier. On top you claim that it is the truth!
Yet in other places you are saying things like that many ways (beliefs) lead us to God! I assume you mean to salvation? How come, from where do you take that?
Hasan
]]> Thu, 24 Jan 2013 12:01:57 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=173277#173277 From where did the trinity teaching come? : &#034;From where did the Trinity... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=173181#173181 Author: Caringheart
Subject: 12519
Posted: 22 January 2013 at 12:31pm

"From where did the Trinity teaching come?"

From the scriptures
from the words of Jesus
from the witness of the Apostle's who walked with Him and observed that He was more than Human
from the testimony of many who heard Him speak
from the witness of Paul who had an encounter with God on the way to Damascus

These are the very Scriptures that testify about Me, 40 yet you refuse to come to Me to have life.
43 I have come in my Father’s name, and you do not accept me; but if someone else comes in his own name, you will accept him. 
46 If you believed Moses, you would believe me, for he wrote about me. 47 But since you do not believe what he wrote, how are you going to believe what I say?”  (the words of Jesus)


31 “If I testify about myself, my testimony is not true.
32 There is another who testifies in my favor, and I know that his testimony about me is true.
36 “I have testimony weightier than that of John. For the works that the Father has given me to finish—the very works that I am doing—testify that the Father has sent me.  (the words of Jesus)


The new testament(mystery) is concealed in the old (the prophesy of Jesus to come)
and the old testament(mystery) is revealed in the new (the coming of Jesus reveals what was hidden in the old testament)


Edited by Caringheart - 22 January 2013 at 12:31pm]]> Tue, 22 Jan 2013 12:31:08 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=173181#173181 From where did the trinity teaching come? : &#034;The reality is that human... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=173180#173180 Author: Caringheart
Subject: 12519
Posted: 22 January 2013 at 12:23pm

"The reality is that human mind is so innovative that it will find explanations for anything, that pleases him/her."

and some minds are so closed they will staunchly stick to whatever has been told to them without investigation.



Edited by Caringheart - 22 January 2013 at 12:24pm]]> Tue, 22 Jan 2013 12:23:59 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=173180#173180 From where did the trinity teaching come? : Originally posted by honeto Originally... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=173106#173106 Author: Mahdi The Seeke
Subject: 12519
Posted: 21 January 2013 at 12:06pm

Originally posted by honeto

Originally posted by Salaam_Erin

Water ice and steam is heretical as Water has to solidify to be ice and become gas to be steam.  That's actually an analogy fora heretical form of Unitarianism called Sabellianism, in this case Modalism.  The Father becomes the Son becomes the Holy Spirit.  A better analogy is the Sun, which has a core, a visible photosphere which is what we see and the outer invisible coronasphere which is visible normally only in hydrogen-alpha light and at solar eclipses, the coronasphere being in uity with the solar wind and the Sun's magnetosphere.  But since the Sun is a finite object and God is infinite, the model breaks down, but it gets closer to what God is doing and is continually.  Since the Wisdom of God is a case of God being exalted by King Solomon and Wisdom refers to itself as the craftsman at God's side to Solomon, then Wisdom is God.  Wisdom is an attribute of God so powerful that Wisdom can create the Universe (And God reveals to Isaiah that God did so alone.)  Therefore Wisdom is a personal living projection- a hypostasis of God, our wisdom is only finite and is merely our good judgement.  In God's case it is a second point of consciousness.   I'm not starting a new religion.  Jesus is Wisdom, and teaches Himself to be so.  "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and "sinners".  But wisdom is proved right by her actions."  (Matthew 11:19)   It's interesting how Jesus preaches of the Son of Man and Wisdom in the same breath.  I'll get back to that in a moment.  With reference to the Queen of Sheba, Jesus says, "The Queen of the South will rise at the judgement with this generation and condemn it; for she came from the ends of the earth to listen to Solomon's wisdom, and now one greater than Solomon is here."  (Matthew 12:42)Jesus links Himself with Wisdom further using feminine imagery for Himself: "How often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing."  (Matthew 23:37)Jesus, on trial before Caiaphas, is put on oath by the High Priest.  "The high priest said to him, "I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God."  "Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied.  "But I say to all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."  Then the high priest tore his clothes and said, "He has spoken blasphemy!  Why do we need any more witnesses?"  (Matthew 26:63-65.)Compare this with Daniel 7:13-14.  "In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven.  He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence.  He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshipped him.  His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed."  Compare this with:"For unto us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders.  And he will be called Wonderful Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.  Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end.  He will reign on David's throne and voer his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and for ever." (Isaiah 9:6-7)The Son of Man, the Messiah, God and Wisdom are all interconnected.  Hence why John writes:"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."  (John 1:1)"My Father is always at his work to this day, and I too am working."  (John 5:17)"For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself.  And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man."  (John 5:26-27)"If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink.  Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, streams of living water will flow from within him."  (John 7:37-38)  This is a summary of those teachigns about Wisdom in Ecclesiasticus by Rabbi Jesus Ben Sirach, whom the Lord Jesus approved of in this instance.  (It doesn't canonise the book but certainly canonises the teaching given in that book on Wisdom and the Holy Spirit being like living water.)To quote from yourself, Abu:Interesting. Now you are saying that wisdom created the world alongside
God? In that case why don't you add wisdom to the Trinity and make it a
Quadrinity?No need, Jesus is Wisdom.  Wisdom and Word is what the term 'Son' symbolises.The Son of Man who Jesus claims to be, is not the only image of a Hypostatic mirror image of God, along with Wisdom.  Look at Exodus 23:20-22.  This is no ordinary angel God is discussing:  "See, I am sending an angel ahead of you to guard you along the way and to bring you to the place I have prepared.  Pay attention to him and listen to what he says.  Do not rebel against him; he will not forgive your rebellion, since my Name is in him." And don't forget, in Exodus 3 and 4 the Angel of the LORD speaks to Moses as the flame in the Burning Bush, and is clearly God Himself, and proclaims Himself to be I AM.  As does Jesus in John 8:58: "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" There is nothing new about any of this.  This is why Paul writes later, in AD 55, to the Corinthian church, "But to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God."  (1 Corinthians 1:24)Jesus proclaims Himself to be the Wisdom of God.  This is why He teaches, "Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father."  (John 14:9)That is why John says that the Word was in the Beginning, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.  That's why Paul says "He is the image of invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.  For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.  He is before all things, and in him all things hold together."    (Colossians 1:15-17)John writes, "Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made."  (John 1:3)So we see how the Son of Man and Wisdom of God concepts come together.  Paul and John are drawing from the revelation God gave to King Solomon in Proverbs 8.  Paul also draws from Daniel 7:14.  That is why Jesus says: "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me."  (Matthew 28:18)If you believe Jesus is a prophet, and see how the second messenger who proclaims the covenant is YHWH Himself, in Malachi 3, then you must bow the knee to Jesus Himself, to the glory of God the Father.The Father shall have the last word.  "This is my Son, whom I love, with whom I am well pleased.  Listen to Him!"(Matthew 17:5)         



Erin,
I am just amazed at how you used water , ice and steam to describe three persons God in your belief. It is quite entertaining and looks pityful at the same time.
You know that water is made of hydrogen and oxygen (H2O), does that adds up to your argument? It expands in its frozen state and shrinks when liquid.
Until 2006 there were 117 elements discovered by man, as of 2011 there were 119. You may all find all sorts of connections and explanations to describe who, God!

The reality is that human mind is so innovative that it will find explanations for anything, that pleases him/her.

But when we look at what God has told us about Himself, we find it amazingly clear. Whether you believe in the Bible, the Quran or even the Pagan religion of Hinduism surprisingly you will find unmistakably one common thing about God, God is One.

Those who think Jesus is God, need to read Jesus' word where he said: " my father and your father, my God and your God". Or those who say Jesus and God are equal in power to read their own book and listen to the words fo Jesus:" for my father is greater than I"
Those who think Holy spirit is God or equal to God for get that when you are equal or you are God, you are "not sent" as God do not follow anyone's command or order, God is not sent.
How can some close their eyes from what is so clearly written and to be taken seriously, yet they look the other way thinking that they are capable of describing God better assigning God, sons and daughters and mothers and fathers. It's like coming in light and then turning that light off thinking no one can see them to whatever they do or whatever they say, to their own loss? In fantasies of their mind, of steam, ice and water to describe God, who has always been One and described Himself as such as He knew humans are good to make up pretty bizarre innovations as they please, except those who believe, believe in absolute Oneness of God, as God has taught them Himself.
Most of what you wrote is word for word repetition of what I hear from people like you and sounds like a parrot repeating words without understanding what it is repeating. You say Jesus was the first creation. That seem to be only an invention. If this was true, Moses would have mentioned it big time, David would have mentioned it big time. The funny thing is that this claim of Jesus being the fist creation should have been know by all of God's prophets that came. The reality is that none have mentioned such a thing that God has a son his name is Jesus and he is with God since beginning. Jesus (pbuh) was God's creation, his servant, his beloved prophet to guide mankind.
Here is the First command God gave to believers of the old, now knows as the followers of the OT: "Thou shalt have no other gods before me."
There is no mention of God being a Trinity, no son (Jesus)is ever mentioned, God the father, God the Holy Ghost no mention of such trinity as we see followers of Jesus claim. In fact none of any God's prophets before mentioned it, does that not wake you guys up?

2:255 (Y. Ali) Allah. there is no god but He,-the Living, the Self-subsisting, Eternal. no slumber can seize Him nor sleep. His are all things in the heavens and on earth. Who is there can intercede in His presence except as He permitteth? He knoweth what (appeareth to His creatures as) before or after or behind them. nor shall they compass aught of His knowledge except as He willeth. His Throne doth extend over the heavens and the earth, and He feeleth no fatigue in guarding and preserving them for He is the Most High, the Supreme (in glory).
Hasan

Fantastic post.]]> Mon, 21 Jan 2013 12:06:30 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=173106#173106 From where did the trinity teaching come? : Originally posted by Salaam_ErinWater... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=170764#170764 Author: honeto
Subject: 12519
Posted: 27 November 2012 at 10:09am

Originally posted by Salaam_Erin

Water ice and steam is heretical as Water has to solidify to be ice and become gas to be steam.  That's actually an analogy fora heretical form of Unitarianism called Sabellianism, in this case Modalism.  The Father becomes the Son becomes the Holy Spirit.  A better analogy is the Sun, which has a core, a visible photosphere which is what we see and the outer invisible coronasphere which is visible normally only in hydrogen-alpha light and at solar eclipses, the coronasphere being in uity with the solar wind and the Sun's magnetosphere.  But since the Sun is a finite object and God is infinite, the model breaks down, but it gets closer to what God is doing and is continually.  Since the Wisdom of God is a case of God being exalted by King Solomon and Wisdom refers to itself as the craftsman at God's side to Solomon, then Wisdom is God.  Wisdom is an attribute of God so powerful that Wisdom can create the Universe (And God reveals to Isaiah that God did so alone.)  Therefore Wisdom is a personal living projection- a hypostasis of God, our wisdom is only finite and is merely our good judgement.  In God's case it is a second point of consciousness.   I'm not starting a new religion.  Jesus is Wisdom, and teaches Himself to be so.  "The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and "sinners".  But wisdom is proved right by her actions."  (Matthew 11:19)   It's interesting how Jesus preaches of the Son of Man and Wisdom in the same breath.  I'll get back to that in a moment.  With reference to the Queen of Sheba, Jesus says, "The Queen of the South will rise at the judgement with this generation and condemn it; for she came from the ends of the earth to listen to Solomon's wisdom, and now one greater than Solomon is here."  (Matthew 12:42)Jesus links Himself with Wisdom further using feminine imagery for Himself: "How often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing."  (Matthew 23:37)Jesus, on trial before Caiaphas, is put on oath by the High Priest.  "The high priest said to him, "I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God."  "Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied.  "But I say to all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."  Then the high priest tore his clothes and said, "He has spoken blasphemy!  Why do we need any more witnesses?"  (Matthew 26:63-65.)Compare this with Daniel 7:13-14.  "In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven.  He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence.  He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshipped him.  His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed."  Compare this with:"For unto us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders.  And he will be called Wonderful Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.  Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end.  He will reign on David's throne and voer his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and for ever." (Isaiah 9:6-7)The Son of Man, the Messiah, God and Wisdom are all interconnected.  Hence why John writes:"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."  (John 1:1)"My Father is always at his work to this day, and I too am working."  (John 5:17)"For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself.  And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man."  (John 5:26-27)"If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink.  Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, streams of living water will flow from within him."  (John 7:37-38)  This is a summary of those teachigns about Wisdom in Ecclesiasticus by Rabbi Jesus Ben Sirach, whom the Lord Jesus approved of in this instance.  (It doesn't canonise the book but certainly canonises the teaching given in that book on Wisdom and the Holy Spirit being like living water.)To quote from yourself, Abu:Interesting. Now you are saying that wisdom created the world alongside
God? In that case why don't you add wisdom to the Trinity and make it a
Quadrinity?No need, Jesus is Wisdom.  Wisdom and Word is what the term 'Son' symbolises.The Son of Man who Jesus claims to be, is not the only image of a Hypostatic mirror image of God, along with Wisdom.  Look at Exodus 23:20-22.  This is no ordinary angel God is discussing:  "See, I am sending an angel ahead of you to guard you along the way and to bring you to the place I have prepared.  Pay attention to him and listen to what he says.  Do not rebel against him; he will not forgive your rebellion, since my Name is in him." And don't forget, in Exodus 3 and 4 the Angel of the LORD speaks to Moses as the flame in the Burning Bush, and is clearly God Himself, and proclaims Himself to be I AM.  As does Jesus in John 8:58: "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!" There is nothing new about any of this.  This is why Paul writes later, in AD 55, to the Corinthian church, "But to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God."  (1 Corinthians 1:24)Jesus proclaims Himself to be the Wisdom of God.  This is why He teaches, "Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father."  (John 14:9)That is why John says that the Word was in the Beginning, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.  That's why Paul says "He is the image of invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.  For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.  He is before all things, and in him all things hold together."    (Colossians 1:15-17)John writes, "Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made."  (John 1:3)So we see how the Son of Man and Wisdom of God concepts come together.  Paul and John are drawing from the revelation God gave to King Solomon in Proverbs 8.  Paul also draws from Daniel 7:14.  That is why Jesus says: "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me."  (Matthew 28:18)If you believe Jesus is a prophet, and see how the second messenger who proclaims the covenant is YHWH Himself, in Malachi 3, then you must bow the knee to Jesus Himself, to the glory of God the Father.The Father shall have the last word.  "This is my Son, whom I love, with whom I am well pleased.  Listen to Him!"(Matthew 17:5)         



Erin,
I am just amazed at how you used water , ice and steam to describe three persons God in your belief. It is quite entertaining and looks pityful at the same time.
You know that water is made of hydrogen and oxygen (H2O), does that adds up to your argument? It expands in its frozen state and shrinks when liquid.
Until 2006 there were 117 elements discovered by man, as of 2011 there were 119. You may all find all sorts of connections and explanations to describe who, God!

The reality is that human mind is so innovative that it will find explanations for anything, that pleases him/her.

But when we look at what God has told us about Himself, we find it amazingly clear. Whether you believe in the Bible, the Quran or even the Pagan religion of Hinduism surprisingly you will find unmistakably one common thing about God, God is One.

Those who think Jesus is God, need to read Jesus' word where he said: " my father and your father, my God and your God". Or those who say Jesus and God are equal in power to read their own book and listen to the words fo Jesus:" for my father is greater than I"
Those who think Holy spirit is God or equal to God for get that when you are equal or you are God, you are "not sent" as God do not follow anyone's command or order, God is not sent.
How can some close their eyes from what is so clearly written and to be taken seriously, yet they look the other way thinking that they are capable of describing God better assigning God, sons and daughters and mothers and fathers. It's like coming in light and then turning that light off thinking no one can see them to whatever they do or whatever they say, to their own loss? In fantasies of their mind, of steam, ice and water to describe God, who has always been One and described Himself as such as He knew humans are good to make up pretty bizarre innovations as they please, except those who believe, believe in absolute Oneness of God, as God has taught them Himself.
Most of what you wrote is word for word repetition of what I hear from people like you and sounds like a parrot repeating words without understanding what it is repeating. You say Jesus was the first creation. That seem to be only an invention. If this was true, Moses would have mentioned it big time, David would have mentioned it big time. The funny thing is that this claim of Jesus being the fist creation should have been know by all of God's prophets that came. The reality is that none have mentioned such a thing that God has a son his name is Jesus and he is with God since beginning. Jesus (pbuh) was God's creation, his servant, his beloved prophet to guide mankind.
Here is the First command God gave to believers of the old, now knows as the followers of the OT: "Thou shalt have no other gods before me."
There is no mention of God being a Trinity, no son (Jesus)is ever mentioned, God the father, God the Holy Ghost no mention of such trinity as we see followers of Jesus claim. In fact none of any God's prophets before mentioned it, does that not wake you guys up?

2:255 (Y. Ali) Allah. there is no god but He,-the Living, the Self-subsisting, Eternal. no slumber can seize Him nor sleep. His are all things in the heavens and on earth. Who is there can intercede in His presence except as He permitteth? He knoweth what (appeareth to His creatures as) before or after or behind them. nor shall they compass aught of His knowledge except as He willeth. His Throne doth extend over the heavens and the earth, and He feeleth no fatigue in guarding and preserving them for He is the Most High, the Supreme (in glory).
Hasan


Edited by honeto - 27 November 2012 at 10:41am]]> Tue, 27 Nov 2012 10:09:30 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=170764#170764 From where did the trinity teaching come? : A very nice post indeed, but for... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=170742#170742 Author: Salaam_Erin
Subject: 12519
Posted: 27 November 2012 at 3:50am

A very nice post indeed, but for a person like me I don't know what is the real Gospel and what is added later by Trinitarians. Sorry but I can't trust all of it.

Then it is time for you to learn the textual history of the New Testament. I trust it because the key passages are undisputed, and any textual variations there is a way of ascertaining the original meaning. None of the doctrines are affected. John 1 is the same in the NIV and AKJV and in their Greek textual bases, for example. The Trinitarians added nothing. Arius, for example, misused Proverbs 8 from the Hebrew Bible to justify his Henotheistic teaching on the Father and Jesus being separate gods, a Big Uncreated God and a little created god who created the Universe on the orders of the Father. But Arius understood something about Trinitarians that Muslims do not grasp- that's why he accused the Trinitarians of being Unitarians.    ]]> Tue, 27 Nov 2012 03:50:21 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=170742#170742 From where did the trinity teaching come? : Hasan,It would be best if you... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=170728#170728 Author: Caringheart
Subject: 12519
Posted: 26 November 2012 at 7:29pm

Hasan,
It would be best if you did not comment unless you read the articles provided.  I always read or view anything that is presented to me.
Salaam,
CH
]]> Mon, 26 Nov 2012 19:29:27 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=170728#170728 From where did the trinity teaching come? : Originally posted by CaringheartBut... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=170718#170718 Author: honeto
Subject: 12519
Posted: 26 November 2012 at 3:36pm

Originally posted by Caringheart

But you can Abu.the best attested document in [ancient history]http://www.allaboutthejourney.org/bible-manuscripts.htmDramatically, when the Bible manuscripts are compared to other ancient writings, they stand alone as the best-preserved literary works of all antiquity. Remarkably, there are thousands of existing Old Testament manuscripts and fragments copied throughout the Middle East, Mediterranean and European regions that agree phenomenally with each other. 1 In addition, these texts substantially agree with the Septuagint version of the Old Testament, which was translated from Hebrew to Greek some time during the 3rd century BC. 2 The Dead Sea Scrolls, discovered in Israel in the 1940's and 50's, also provide astounding evidence for the reliability of the ancient transmission of the Jewish Scriptures (Old Testament) in the 1st, 2nd and 3rd centuries BC. 3The manuscript evidence for the "New Testament" is also dramatic, with nearly 25,000 ancient manuscripts discovered and archived so far, at least 5,600 of which are copies and fragments in the original Greek. 4 Some manuscript texts date to the early second and third centuries, with the time between the original autographs and our earliest existing fragment being a remarkably short 40-60 years. 5Interestingly, this manuscript evidence far surpasses the manuscript reliability of other ancient writings that we trust as authentic every day.Read more at the above provided link.Salaam,CH


CAringheart,
the problem remains. The word of God has to be treated as such. The present forms of Bibles show differences, numerous differences. The Catholic Bible, the King James, and so on all show signs of variations even in the number of books contained.
It might be true that there are fragments of ancient scripture found here and there, but not all are accepted as such, only those that favor one point of view. So there is evidence that support both sides in favor and against.
And it is a fact that all we have as the Bible today is not even in its original language, let alone in perfect form as God revealed it then.
You do not have a compilation in single volume from a thousand years ago identical to that you are using today.
That says a lot. And so many problems with the basic teachings.
Like you say Trinity, all three equal in it is proved otherwise from the same book. You say Jesus did not have a God, he is a God. The same book proves otherwise.
You say, sins are paid with Jesus' blood sacrifice, we see the book teaches otherwise. On top you claim that all your teachings are based in the same book, which I have shown to have proved otherwise everything you say you get from the same book!
How do you reconcile with those facts? I leave that to you and pray that you seek the truth and guidance from God.
Hasan


Edited by honeto - 26 November 2012 at 3:39pm]]> Mon, 26 Nov 2012 15:36:48 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=170718#170718 From where did the trinity teaching come? : But you can Abu.the best attested... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=170252#170252 Author: Caringheart
Subject: 12519
Posted: 17 November 2012 at 11:33am

But you can Abu.

the best attested document in [ancient history]
http://www.allaboutthejourney.org/bible-manuscripts.htm

Dramatically, when the Bible manuscripts are compared to other ancient writings, they stand alone as the best-preserved literary works of all antiquity. Remarkably, there are thousands of existing Old Testament manuscripts and fragments copied throughout the Middle East, Mediterranean and European regions that agree phenomenally with each other. 1 In addition, these texts substantially agree with the Septuagint version of the Old Testament, which was translated from Hebrew to Greek some time during the 3rd century BC. 2 The Dead Sea Scrolls, discovered in Israel in the 1940's and 50's, also provide astounding evidence for the reliability of the ancient transmission of the Jewish Scriptures (Old Testament) in the 1st, 2nd and 3rd centuries BC. 3

The manuscript evidence for the "New Testament" is also dramatic, with nearly 25,000 ancient manuscripts discovered and archived so far, at least 5,600 of which are copies and fragments in the original Greek. 4 Some manuscript texts date to the early second and third centuries, with the time between the original autographs and our earliest existing fragment being a remarkably short 40-60 years. 5

Interestingly, this manuscript evidence far surpasses the manuscript reliability of other ancient writings that we trust as authentic every day.
Read more at the above provided link.

Salaam,
CH
]]> Sat, 17 Nov 2012 11:33:08 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=170252#170252 From where did the trinity teaching come? : Originally posted by Salaam_ErinWater... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=170194#170194 Author: Abu Loren
Subject: 12519
Posted: 16 November 2012 at 2:30am

Originally posted by Salaam_Erin

Water ice and steam is heretical as Water has to solidify to be ice and become gas to be steam.  That's actually an analogy fora heretical form of Unitarianism called Sabellianism, in this case Modalism.  The Father becomes the Son becomes the Holy Spirit.  A better analogy is the Sun, which has a core, a visible photosphere which is what we see and the outer invisible coronasphere which is visible normally only in hydrogen-alpha light and at solar eclipses, the coronasphere being in uity with the solar wind and the Sun's magnetosphere.  But since the Sun is a finite object and God is infinite, the model breaks down, but it gets closer to what God is doing and is continually. 

Since the Wisdom of God is a case of God being exalted by King Solomon and Wisdom refers to itself as the craftsman at God's side to Solomon, then Wisdom is God. 

Wisdom is an attribute of God so powerful that Wisdom can create the Universe (And God reveals to Isaiah that God did so alone.)  Therefore Wisdom is a personal living projection- a hypostasis of God, our wisdom is only finite and is merely our good judgement.  In God's case it is a second point of consciousness.   I'm not starting a new religion.  Jesus is Wisdom, and teaches Himself to be so. 

"The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and "sinners".  But wisdom is proved right by her actions."  (Matthew 11:19)  

It's interesting how Jesus preaches of the Son of Man and Wisdom in the same breath.  I'll get back to that in a moment. 

With reference to the Queen of Sheba, Jesus says, "The Queen of the South will rise at the judgement with this generation and condemn it; for she came from the ends of the earth to listen to Solomon's wisdom, and now one greater than Solomon is here."  (Matthew 12:42)

Jesus links Himself with Wisdom further using feminine imagery for Himself: "How often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing."  (Matthew 23:37)

Jesus, on trial before Caiaphas, is put on oath by the High Priest.  "The high priest said to him, "I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God."  "Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied.  "But I say to all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."  Then the high priest tore his clothes and said, "He has spoken blasphemy!  Why do we need any more witnesses?"  (Matthew 26:63-65.)

Compare this with Daniel 7:13-14.  "In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven.  He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence.  He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshipped him.  His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed." 

Compare this with:

"For unto us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders.  And he will be called Wonderful Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.  Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end.  He will reign on David's throne and voer his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and for ever." (Isaiah 9:6-7)

The Son of Man, the Messiah, God and Wisdom are all interconnected.  Hence why John writes:

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."  (John 1:1)

"My Father is always at his work to this day, and I too am working."  (John 5:17)

"For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself.  And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man."  (John 5:26-27)

"If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink.  Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, streams of living water will flow from within him."  (John 7:37-38)  This is a summary of those teachigns about Wisdom in Ecclesiasticus by Rabbi Jesus Ben Sirach, whom the Lord Jesus approved of in this instance.  (It doesn't canonise the book but certainly canonises the teaching given in that book on Wisdom and the Holy Spirit being like living water.)

To quote from yourself, Abu:

Interesting. Now you are saying that wisdom created the world alongside God? In that case why don't you add wisdom to the Trinity and make it a Quadrinity?

No need, Jesus is Wisdom.  Wisdom and Word is what the term 'Son' symbolises.

The Son of Man who Jesus claims to be, is not the only image of a Hypostatic mirror image of God, along with Wisdom.  Look at Exodus 23:20-22.  This is no ordinary angel God is discussing: 

"See, I am sending an angel ahead of you to guard you along the way and to bring you to the place I have prepared.  Pay attention to him and listen to what he says.  Do not rebel against him; he will not forgive your rebellion, since my Name is in him."

And don't forget, in Exodus 3 and 4 the Angel of the LORD speaks to Moses as the flame in the Burning Bush, and is clearly God Himself, and proclaims Himself to be I AM.  As does Jesus in John 8:58: "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"

There is nothing new about any of this.  This is why Paul writes later, in AD 55, to the Corinthian church, "But to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God."  (1 Corinthians 1:24)

Jesus proclaims Himself to be the Wisdom of God.  This is why He teaches, "Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father."  (John 14:9)

That is why John says that the Word was in the Beginning, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.  That's why Paul says "He is the image of invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.  For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.  He is before all things, and in him all things hold together."    (Colossians 1:15-17)

John writes, "Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made."  (John 1:3)

So we see how the Son of Man and Wisdom of God concepts come together.  Paul and John are drawing from the revelation God gave to King Solomon in Proverbs 8.  Paul also draws from Daniel 7:14.  That is why Jesus says: "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me."  (Matthew 28:18)

If you believe Jesus is a prophet, and see how the second messenger who proclaims the covenant is YHWH Himself, in Malachi 3, then you must bow the knee to Jesus Himself, to the glory of God the Father.

The Father shall have the last word.  "This is my Son, whom I love, with whom I am well pleased.  Listen to Him!"(Matthew 17:5) 

       
 
A very nice post indeed, but for a person like me I don't know what is the real Gospel and what is added later by Trinitarians. Sorry but I can't trust all of it.
]]> Fri, 16 Nov 2012 02:30:33 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=170194#170194 From where did the trinity teaching come? : Water ice and steam is heretical... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=170161#170161 Author: Salaam_Erin
Subject: 12519
Posted: 15 November 2012 at 8:30am

Water ice and steam is heretical as Water has to solidify to be ice and become gas to be steam.  That's actually an analogy fora heretical form of Unitarianism called Sabellianism, in this case Modalism.  The Father becomes the Son becomes the Holy Spirit.  A better analogy is the Sun, which has a core, a visible photosphere which is what we see and the outer invisible coronasphere which is visible normally only in hydrogen-alpha light and at solar eclipses, the coronasphere being in uity with the solar wind and the Sun's magnetosphere.  But since the Sun is a finite object and God is infinite, the model breaks down, but it gets closer to what God is doing and is continually. 

Since the Wisdom of God is a case of God being exalted by King Solomon and Wisdom refers to itself as the craftsman at God's side to Solomon, then Wisdom is God. 

Wisdom is an attribute of God so powerful that Wisdom can create the Universe (And God reveals to Isaiah that God did so alone.)  Therefore Wisdom is a personal living projection- a hypostasis of God, our wisdom is only finite and is merely our good judgement.  In God's case it is a second point of consciousness.   I'm not starting a new religion.  Jesus is Wisdom, and teaches Himself to be so. 

"The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and "sinners".  But wisdom is proved right by her actions."  (Matthew 11:19)  

It's interesting how Jesus preaches of the Son of Man and Wisdom in the same breath.  I'll get back to that in a moment. 

With reference to the Queen of Sheba, Jesus says, "The Queen of the South will rise at the judgement with this generation and condemn it; for she came from the ends of the earth to listen to Solomon's wisdom, and now one greater than Solomon is here."  (Matthew 12:42)

Jesus links Himself with Wisdom further using feminine imagery for Himself: "How often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing."  (Matthew 23:37)

Jesus, on trial before Caiaphas, is put on oath by the High Priest.  "The high priest said to him, "I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God."  "Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied.  "But I say to all of you: In the future you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Mighty One and coming on the clouds of heaven."  Then the high priest tore his clothes and said, "He has spoken blasphemy!  Why do we need any more witnesses?"  (Matthew 26:63-65.)

Compare this with Daniel 7:13-14.  "In my vision at night I looked, and there before me was one like a son of man, coming with the clouds of heaven.  He approached the Ancient of Days and was led into his presence.  He was given authority, glory and sovereign power; all peoples, nations and men of every language worshipped him.  His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed." 

Compare this with:

"For unto us a child is born, to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders.  And he will be called Wonderful Counsellor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.  Of the increase of his government and peace there will be no end.  He will reign on David's throne and voer his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and for ever." (Isaiah 9:6-7)

The Son of Man, the Messiah, God and Wisdom are all interconnected.  Hence why John writes:

"In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."  (John 1:1)

"My Father is always at his work to this day, and I too am working."  (John 5:17)

"For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself.  And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man."  (John 5:26-27)

"If anyone is thirsty, let him come to me and drink.  Whoever believes in me, as the Scripture has said, streams of living water will flow from within him."  (John 7:37-38)  This is a summary of those teachigns about Wisdom in Ecclesiasticus by Rabbi Jesus Ben Sirach, whom the Lord Jesus approved of in this instance.  (It doesn't canonise the book but certainly canonises the teaching given in that book on Wisdom and the Holy Spirit being like living water.)

To quote from yourself, Abu:

Interesting. Now you are saying that wisdom created the world alongside God? In that case why don't you add wisdom to the Trinity and make it a Quadrinity?

No need, Jesus is Wisdom.  Wisdom and Word is what the term 'Son' symbolises.

The Son of Man who Jesus claims to be, is not the only image of a Hypostatic mirror image of God, along with Wisdom.  Look at Exodus 23:20-22.  This is no ordinary angel God is discussing: 

"See, I am sending an angel ahead of you to guard you along the way and to bring you to the place I have prepared.  Pay attention to him and listen to what he says.  Do not rebel against him; he will not forgive your rebellion, since my Name is in him."

And don't forget, in Exodus 3 and 4 the Angel of the LORD speaks to Moses as the flame in the Burning Bush, and is clearly God Himself, and proclaims Himself to be I AM.  As does Jesus in John 8:58: "I tell you the truth," Jesus answered, "before Abraham was born, I am!"

There is nothing new about any of this.  This is why Paul writes later, in AD 55, to the Corinthian church, "But to those whom God has called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God."  (1 Corinthians 1:24)

Jesus proclaims Himself to be the Wisdom of God.  This is why He teaches, "Anyone who has seen me has seen the Father."  (John 14:9)

That is why John says that the Word was in the Beginning, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.  That's why Paul says "He is the image of invisible God, the firstborn over all creation.  For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.  He is before all things, and in him all things hold together."    (Colossians 1:15-17)

John writes, "Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made."  (John 1:3)

So we see how the Son of Man and Wisdom of God concepts come together.  Paul and John are drawing from the revelation God gave to King Solomon in Proverbs 8.  Paul also draws from Daniel 7:14.  That is why Jesus says: "All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me."  (Matthew 28:18)

If you believe Jesus is a prophet, and see how the second messenger who proclaims the covenant is YHWH Himself, in Malachi 3, then you must bow the knee to Jesus Himself, to the glory of God the Father.

The Father shall have the last word.  "This is my Son, whom I love, with whom I am well pleased.  Listen to Him!"(Matthew 17:5) 

       
]]> Thu, 15 Nov 2012 08:30:20 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=170161#170161 From where did the trinity teaching come? : Originally posted by... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=169879#169879 Author: Abu Loren
Subject: 12519
Posted: 07 November 2012 at 8:49pm

Originally posted by Salaam_Erin

You are still ignoring the clear teaching in the Hebrew Bible, the Old Testament, that God is Hypostatic, not monadic.  This is something which is clearly taught in Proverbs 8.  As for John being 'doctored', there is not a shred of evidence for this assertion.  Produce me the scholars, produce me the actual manuscript evidence, because I have in my possession textual commentaries and critical apparati, easily available to the public, which help me to track down every reading for any part of John's Gospel.  Believe me, John 14-17 is authentic. 
The teaching of the Old Testament is clear to you because you have this Trinity concept playing around in your head. The water, ice and steam concept is appealing to you but not to me unfortunately.

If you are not aware Proverbs are just exaltations of God by Prophet Solomon (pbuh) like the exaltations of God by his Father David (pbuh) with the Psalms. You people like to read too much into these things.
If you are making a garbled and confused reference to the Story of the Woman Caught in Adultery, that is a floating mini Gospel in its own right, and of no relevance to the doctrine of the Trinity, which is not about 3 gods, but about a Hypostatic God, whose nerve centre (the 'Father') has a Wisdom so powerful that this Wisdom was able to interact with God's nerve centre and create the Universe, and also communicate to King Solomon about being the craftsman at God's side.  This does not make Wisdom the partner of God, but the self-expression of everything that God is.    
 
 
Interesting. Now you are saying that wisdom created the world alongside God? In that case why don't you add wisdom to the Trinity and make it a Quadrinity?
 
Wisdom is one of the attributes of God which He gave to human beings in varying amounts. Just like mercy. Don't read too much into it.
 
If you are not careful you will start a new religion with your ideas as fantastcial and fanciful as they are.


Edited by Abu Loren - 07 November 2012 at 8:54pm]]> Wed, 07 Nov 2012 20:49:41 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=169879#169879 From where did the trinity teaching come? : You are still ignoring the clear... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=169817#169817 Author: Salaam_Erin
Subject: 12519
Posted: 06 November 2012 at 5:04am

You are still ignoring the clear teaching in the Hebrew Bible, the Old Testament, that God is Hypostatic, not monadic.  This is something which is clearly taught in Proverbs 8.  As for John being 'doctored', there is not a shred of evidence for this assertion.  Produce me the scholars, produce me the actual manuscript evidence, because I have in my possession textual commentaries and critical apparati, easily available to the public, which help me to track down every reading for any part of John's Gospel.  Believe me, John 14-17 is authentic. 

If you are making a garbled and confused reference to the Story of the Woman Caught in Adultery, that is a floating mini Gospel in its own right, and of no relevance to the doctrine of the Trinity, which is not about 3 gods, but about a Hypostatic God, whose nerve centre (the 'Father') has a Wisdom so powerful that this Wisdom was able to interact with God's nerve centre and create the Universe, and also communicate to King Solomon about being the craftsman at God's side.  This does not make Wisdom the partner of God, but the self-expression of everything that God is.    ]]> Tue, 06 Nov 2012 05:04:22 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=169817#169817 From where did the trinity teaching come? : Originally posted by Salaam_ErinSo... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=169751#169751 Author: Abu Loren
Subject: 12519
Posted: 04 November 2012 at 10:36am

Originally posted by Salaam_Erin

So what about Proverbs 8? 
 
What about it? You are not seriously saying that Proverbs 8 is referring to Jesus (pbuh) and is a prophecy of him? If you are that is because you have this idea of the Trinity in your head, if you then take that out then you will know what Proverbs are all about.
 
With reference to the Gospel of John, modern scholars confirm that there are later additions that are not found in the earlier copies. So the logical conclusion is that most of John has been 'doctored'.
 
If you are a Trinitarian then there is no hope for you as you will not look at this with an open heart, you will always be leaning towards the Trinitarian doctrine.
]]> Sun, 04 Nov 2012 10:36:30 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=169751#169751 From where did the trinity teaching come? : So what about Proverbs 8? Have... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=169687#169687 Author: Salaam_Erin
Subject: 12519
Posted: 02 November 2012 at 9:13am

So what about Proverbs 8?  Have you even read through the stuff on Hypostasis and Jewish Wisdom Theology?  Also, to say "Jesus (pbuh) was a Jew according to Christians thus inhis own belief there was no such thing as a Trinity" shows a lack of knowledge of the full discussion Jesus makes in John 14-16.   As I said above, "ohn 14-16, a passage which Muslims like to think is about Jesus prophesying Muhammad, is in reality a key plank in the doctrine of the Trinity.   Compare John 14:16, 14:26, and John 16:7, and see that Jesus is teaching He and the Father will jointly send the Parakletos.  This Parakletos is invisible (John 14:17), He was alive in AD 33 (John 14:17).  His job is to do with the preservation of the Injeel (John 14:26).  The Parakletos is to bring glory to Jesus (John 16:14)  The Parakletos' job is centred around Jesus.  Finally, look at John 16:15.  Now there is a Trinitarian verse if ever there was one.  How could this be about Muhammad.  Why then should Muslims even consider this passage to be a prophecy about Muhammad?  There is nobody on this Earth, Christian or Muslim, who believes in a Trinity of Allah, Jesus and Muhammad.  Not one.  That would be absurd.  Let's slot in Muhammad in these references and see what we get.  The world cannot accept Muhammad, because it neither sees him nor knows him.  But you know him, for he lives in you and will be in you (as in Jesus' disciples in AD 33).  But Muhammad whom the Father will send in Jesus' name, will teach you of all things and will remind you of everything that Jesus has said to who?  His disciples in AD 33.  But I thought Muhammad's ministry started in AD 610.  If Jesus goes, he will send Muhammad to you.  Muhammad will give glory to Jesus by taking from what is Jesus' and giving it to Jesus' disciples in AD 33.  All that belongs to Allah is Jesus'.  That is why Jesus said that Muhammad will take from what is Jesus' and give it to Jesus' disciples.  By paraphrasing it, do you see the problem?  This is NOT about being disrespectful to Muhammad, not at all.  Rather it is to show that this passage is Trinitarian and so Muslims should not even begin to consider this passage as a prophecy about Admed by Jesus.  You will need to look elsewhere for that, especially as this is a Trinitarian passage, and John 16:15 is as Triniatarian (and 1st century) as it gets. "  Since the textual evidence shows this discussion has not been altered, and since Muslims use this to justify the view that Jesus prophesied Muhammad, dismissing it with a handwave is, well, just plain embarrassing.
]]> Fri, 02 Nov 2012 09:13:24 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=169687#169687 From where did the trinity teaching come? : We know from where the Trinity... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=169644#169644 Author: honeto
Subject: 12519
Posted: 01 November 2012 at 3:07pm

We know from where the Trinity teachings came from and when. The Trinity was never a part of Jewish teachings or the Law. And Jesus (pbuh) was a Jew according to Christians thus inhis own belief there was no such thing as a Trinity.
I think there is nothing more to it, even though some may like to write pages on the same, its worth just that many lines.
Hasan]]> Thu, 01 Nov 2012 15:07:17 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=169644#169644 From where did the trinity teaching come? : Hello. What a mass of confusion!... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=169553#169553 Author: Salaam_Erin
Subject: 12519
Posted: 30 October 2012 at 9:37am

Hello.  What a mass of confusion!  Ig one thing is confirmed here, is how God is greater than all of us, and He cannot be fully understood except by Himself.  But I will give as best I can my understanding ot the origins of the doctrine of the Trinity.  The Church Councils of the 4th century constitute the ending of the process of understanding and defining the doctrine.  but the doctrine was around from the 1st century itself.  If one is to believe the Bible, the first ever trinitarian statement was by Gabriel announcing to Mary her pregnancy as a virgin.  (Luke 1:29-37)  The Most High is obviously the Father.  The Holy Spirit is clearly defined as God here by Gabriel, as the Holy Spirit is who conceives the child when the Holy Spirit came upon Mary (not sexually, but focusing His power on her to activate her egg).  The Power of the Most High overshadowing Mary, that is Jesus before conception as a human, entering the egg.  But that's to do with the doctrine of the Incarnation of Jesus, that last detail, but the term Power of the Most High is more relevant.  Because Jesus is the ultimate revelation of God, there would not have been an explicit doctrine of the Trinity before.  However, there is the long forgotten (by Jews, who are largely Unitarian now) Jewish Wisdom Theology, in which God is revealed to be One, yes, but also within His singular nature, He is revealed to be Hypostatic, endowed with the power of personhood.  God's Wisdom is so powerful that it is literally, eternally, personified.  God's Wisdom can thin and speak for itself.  Wisdom is revealed speaking to King Solomon.  See Proverbs 8:22-36.  Incidentally, the best translation I have seen of this is from the Jewish Chorev Keter-Crown Bible.  Wisdom tells Solomon that Wisdom was the craftsman at God's side, and made the universe- yet God tells Isaiah that He alone created the Universe.  The answer then is that God and His Wisdom are the same thing, but different personae of the same thing.  Hence why God talks in the Royal We in Genesis.  but the verbs of what He says 'We' will do, are in the singular.  Yes, in Deuteronomy 6:4, God is One, but the Hebrew word is Echad, the same word to say that Adam and Eve were one flesh (Basar Echad) (Genesis 2:24) and to describe a bunch of grapes (Echad Eschcol) (Numbers 13:23).  The terms means a compound unity.  The Hebrew word for absolute oneness in the sense of Unitarianism and Tawheed is Yachid, the word Maimonides used for the Shema. 

Two interesting passages which point to God coming to Moses in more than one aspect are: Exodus 23:20-23 and Exodus 33:7-23 and read them carefully.

Also study the Angel of the LORD passages and even some of the ancient Rabbis had the concept of the Memra and the Shekinah.

The Shekinah was the glow of God's presence, which filled the Tabernacle on its consecration, and the same with Solomon's Temple.  Jesus is shown to be a Walking Shekinah according to the story of the Transfiguration. 

Some notes.  The name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit according to Matthew 28 is the same name. 

John 14-16, a passage which Muslims like to think is about Jesus prophesying Muhammad, is in reality a key plank in the doctrine of the Trinity.   Compare John 14:16, 14:26, and John 16:7, and see that Jesus is teaching He and the Father will jointly send the Parakletos.  This Parakletos is invisible (John 14:17), He was alive in AD 33 (John 14:17).  His job is to do with the preservation of the Injeel (John 14:26).  The Parakletos is to bring glory to Jesus (John 16:14)  The Parakletos' job is centred around Jesus.  Finally, look at John 16:15.  Now there is a Trinitarian verse if ever there was one.  How could this be about Muhammad.  Why then should Muslims even consider this passage to be a prophecy about Muhammad?  There is nobody on this Earth, Christian or Muslim, who believes in a Trinity of Allah, Jesus and Muhammad.  Not one.  That would be absurd.  Let's slot in Muhammad in these references and see what we get.  The world cannot accept Muhammad, because it neither sees him nor knows him.  But you know him, for he lives in you and will be in you (as in Jesus' disciples in AD 33).  But Muhammad whom the Father will send in Jesus' name, will teach you of all things and will remind you of everything that Jesus has said to who?  His disciples in AD 33.  But I thought Muhammad's ministry started in AD 610.  If Jesus goes, he will send Muhammad to you.  Muhammad will give glory to Jesus by taking from what is Jesus' and giving it to Jesus' disciples in AD 33.  All that belongs to Allah is Jesus'.  That is why Jesus said that Muhammad will take from what is Jesus' and give it to Jesus' disciples.  By paraphrasing it, do you see the problem?  This is NOT about being disrespectful to Muhammad, not at all.  Rather it is to show that this passage is Trinitarian and so Muslims should not even begin to consider this passage as a prophecy about Admed by Jesus.  You will need to look elsewhere for that, especially as this is a Trinitarian passage, and John 16:15 is as Triniatarian (and 1st century) as it gets. 

As for the word Trinity not being in the Bible, well, the term comes from Latin.  The New Testament was written in Greek.     

This actually provides a context for Jesus saying "the Father is greater than I."  (John 14:28)  He makes it clear that the Holy Spirit cannot be sent until He goes back to the Father for that reason.  He cannot ask the Father, until He goes to the Father as the Father is greater than He.  He cannot jointly send the Spirit until He goes to the Father because, again, teh Father is greater than He.  This is in spite of the fact that Jesus teaches that with the Parakletos living in the disciples the Father and Son will live in them too (John 14:23).  What is going on then?  Jesus says all that the Father has belongs to Him.  But the Father is greater than He?  The logical conclusion is that according to this passage the Father is greater than Jesus in position, as being on the Throne of Heaven as opposed to Jesus being a human on Earth.  Jesus therefore needs to return to the Father to be in equal status.  The implication is of a voluntary and temporary subordination of Jesus to the Father in time as a human, but of equality with the Father spiritually.  Therefore surely John 14-16 is a Trinitarian passage Muslims would be wise to avoid if they wish to use it to say that Jesus prophesied the coming of Muhammad.  They need to try somewhere else.  And another thing.  I've checked the critical apparati of the Greek New Testament and the textual commentaries, and this passage has not been changed.  Food for thought.         ]]> Tue, 30 Oct 2012 09:37:37 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=169553#169553 From where did the trinity teaching come? : Originally posted by Caringheart Originally... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=169125#169125 Author: honeto
Subject: 12519
Posted: 18 October 2012 at 3:09pm

Originally posted by Caringheart



Originally posted by honeto

Caringheart,
seems like a new idea, never mentioned in the entire Biblical history prior to this. None of the OT prophets nor their teachings ever mentioned that God consists of three persons equal in power as described by this new Christian idea about God. Any reference prior to the NT that can prove Trinity?
Hasan
Was there a Trinity before God decided to come to His people in the flesh... i.e.... as the Living Word... i.e., before the incarnation of Himself in the flesh, as a Son, i.e., before Jesus?


Caringheart,
I asked a question, should I wait first to get your answer or get my self tangled with a question?
Anyway, you ask " Was there a Trinity before God decided to come to His people in the flesh"
I will answer this question but I hope you to be decent enough to answer the question I ask, or be brave to say, no there is no reference before in none of the OT books!

God coming in flesh? you ask. In OT there is no mention or prophecy that says that God will come to the earth, in flesh, as a man.
And don't you guys say that Jesus was there with God before. If so, where is that mentioned in the OT? nowhere, right?
Further you make no sense when you say, "God decided to come in flesh" and then to say "as a son".
Please, answer the question and leave the things that don't make sense.
Hasan

Edited by honeto - 18 October 2012 at 3:11pm]]> Thu, 18 Oct 2012 15:09:56 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=169125#169125 From where did the trinity teaching come? : Originally posted by honetoCaringheart, seems... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=169092#169092 Author: Caringheart
Subject: 12519
Posted: 17 October 2012 at 4:47pm

Originally posted by honeto

Caringheart,
seems like a new idea, never mentioned in the entire Biblical history prior to this. None of the OT prophets nor their teachings ever mentioned that God consists of three persons equal in power as described by this new Christian idea about God. Any reference prior to the NT that can prove Trinity?
Hasan


Was there a Trinity before God decided to come to His people in the flesh... i.e.... as the Living Word... i.e., before the incarnation of Himself in the flesh, as a Son, i.e., before Jesus?


Edited by Caringheart - 17 October 2012 at 4:48pm]]> Wed, 17 Oct 2012 16:47:01 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=169092#169092 From where did the trinity teaching come? : Caringheart, seems like a new... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=169050#169050 Author: honeto
Subject: 12519
Posted: 15 October 2012 at 3:31pm

Caringheart,
seems like a new idea, never mentioned in the entire Biblical history prior to this. None of the OT prophets nor their teachings ever mentioned that God consists of three persons equal in power as described by this new Christian idea about God. Any reference prior to the NT that can prove Trinity?
Hasan

Edited by honeto - 15 October 2012 at 3:32pm]]> Mon, 15 Oct 2012 15:31:56 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=169050#169050 From where did the trinity teaching come? : Answering the question that is... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=168966#168966 Author: Caringheart
Subject: 12519
Posted: 13 October 2012 at 12:42pm

Answering the question that is the title of the thread;
Where does trinity teaching come from?

John, the beloved Apostle;
7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.
Jesus is that Word... the Word of God... He is the living Word. Smile]]> Sat, 13 Oct 2012 12:42:23 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=168966#168966 From where did the trinity teaching come? : Dougg, I agree we Muslims live... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=155844#155844 Author: honeto
Subject: 12519
Posted: 26 May 2011 at 10:32am

Dougg,
I agree we Muslims live a different life than you. We only worship God, God of Jesus. You worship Jesus along with his God. That is a very big difference. Worshipping God's creation is a grave sin and it is an unforgiveable sin, according to the Quran and the previous scriptures as well.
You repeat bits and pieces that only support the part you believe yet the same contradicts the very source you take it from, the Bible. For example the quote from it I presented above: " Unless you repent, you too will all  perish"
 
Hasan
 
]]> Thu, 26 May 2011 10:32:53 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=155844#155844 From where did the trinity teaching come? : Originally posted by honetoDougg, I... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=155718#155718 Author: Douggg
Subject: 12519
Posted: 21 May 2011 at 9:47pm

Originally posted by honeto

Dougg,
I showed you the facts and the truth about what we are discussing, you live by what you believe, I live by the truth.


When you quote from the bible, that quote unaltered is the truth.   It's Islam's interpretation where the problem is.   You, assuming that you are living as a muslim, are living the life that mohamed and the writers of the hadiths teach, which conflicts with the bible.


You said Jesus was to die to pay for sins of people as a preplan deal, and that it was needed because without it mankind could not be freed from sin and thus would have ended up in hell. I showed you that there is a verse, that kicks that idea and that verse contradicts you claim. Interestingly, it comes from your own source the Bible. This time I am quoting it as it appears word for word:
John 15: 22 "If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin; but now they have no excuse for their sin."


Okay, let's go with your NIV translation.   In context, Jesus was referring to the persecution that his disciples would undergo.   Because those persons who would be persecuting the disciples witnessed all the miracles Jesus did, so their sin of persecuting the disciples would be without excuse.

 18 “If the world hates you, keep in mind that it hated me first. 19 If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you. 20 Remember what I told you: ‘A servant is not greater than his master.’ If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also. If they obeyed my teaching, they will obey yours also. 21 They will treat you this way because of my name, for they do not know the one who sent me. 22 If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin; but now they have no excuse for their sin. 23 Whoever hates me hates my Father as well. 24 If I had not done among them the works no one else did, they would not be guilty of sin. As it is, they have seen, and yet they have hated both me and my Father. 25 But this is to fulfill what is written in their Law: ‘They hated me without reason.’


And it does not end there, Luke tells us a complete different story, he says: Luke 13:3
I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.
So according to him here, unless you repent, it will not work.
 
Only truth, and surrundering to the truth will avail us anything, rest will do us harm.
Hasan


No-one can come to Christ for salvation without a repentant heart.  

Luke 24:
46 And said unto them, Thus it is written, and thus it behooved Christ to suffer, and to rise from the dead the third day:

 47 And that repentance and remission of sins should be preached in his name among all nations, beginning at Jerusalem.






Edited by Douggg - 21 May 2011 at 9:49pm]]> Sat, 21 May 2011 21:47:21 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=155718#155718 From where did the trinity teaching come? : Dougg, I showed you the facts... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=155715#155715 Author: honeto
Subject: 12519
Posted: 21 May 2011 at 4:01pm

Dougg,
I showed you the facts and the truth about what we are discussing, you live by what you believe, I live by the truth.
You said Jesus was to die to pay for sins of people as a preplan deal, and that it was needed because without it mankind could not be freed from sin and thus would have ended up in hell. I showed you that there is a verse, that kicks that idea and that verse contradicts you claim. Interestingly, it comes from your own source the Bible. This time I am quoting it as it appears word for word:
John 15: 22 "If I had not come and spoken to them, they would not be guilty of sin; but now they have no excuse for their sin."
 
And it does not end there, Luke tells us a complete different story, he says: Luke 13:3
I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish.
So according to him here, unless you repent, it will not work.
 
Only truth, and surrundering to the truth will avail us anything, rest will do us harm.
Hasan
]]> Sat, 21 May 2011 16:01:41 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=155715#155715 From where did the trinity teaching come? : Originally posted by... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=155664#155664 Author: Douggg
Subject: 12519
Posted: 19 May 2011 at 9:33pm

Originally posted by Mansoor_ali


  My Response to Douggg

 Jesus is NOT the one who is and which was and is to come,take note:

 Revelation 1:2-5(NIV)

  who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. 3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.


Hi Mansoor,  Revelation 19:13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
***********************************
Mansoor:  Greetings and Doxology
4 John,

   To the seven churches in the province of Asia:

   Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits before his throne, 5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth. 

*************************************

(Doug)

Mansoor, that verse says the firstborn from the dead.   Mohamed said that Jesus didn't die.   So is verse 5 you quoted as "first born from the dead" true?   Or did Mohamed make up a falsehood about Jesus not having been crucified?

**********************************

Mansoor writes:  So as you could seefor yourself, the one who is and was and is to come is not Jesus.Lets break it down:

 John to the seven churches in the province of Asia:Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come.

 This is THE God talking not Jesus,because note now what Jesus says means he is not the one speaking:  

 5 and from Jesus Christ,


 AND FROM JESUS meaning that the first speaker was not Jesus or it would not say AND Jesus.The fact it says AND Jesus shows the one who said I was and is and to come was not Jesus!

 AND FROM JESUS,meaning Jesus is a different person than the one who said I was and is to come.  So this is crystal clear proof that the Revelation 1 is not Jesus since the speaker of Revelation 1 is the one who is,the one that was,and the one who will come and that my friend is not Jesus because there was a distinction made between the two. [/quote]

*******************************************

Doug replies:

Okay, here are the verses Revelation 1:17-18 to end this argument and disprove Islam.    Are you telling me God was dead (verse 18 )?   Prove that by the bible or Koran.   Jesus himself is clearly saying that he is God.    And verse 18 verifies that it is Jesus talking.  

 17And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last:

 18I am he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.




Edited by Douggg - 19 May 2011 at 10:01pm]]> Thu, 19 May 2011 21:33:58 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=155664#155664 From where did the trinity teaching come? : To Douggg.Hi Mansoor, did Mohamed... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=155660#155660 Author: Mansoor_ali
Subject: 12519
Posted: 19 May 2011 at 2:33pm


 To Douggg.

 Hi Mansoor, did Mohamed say with his own lips that he is "The Truth", "The Resurrection", the Alpha and Omega, the first and the last?    I don't think so.
I don't think Mohamed made any of those claims.    Nor do I think that others said those things about him.   Because those attributes are unique to God.   And Jesus with his own lips said those things about himself.    I quoted and provided the verses.

Your source Ali Ataie is making a strawman argument because the two attributes of kind and merciful are not the three attributes that I referred to.

 Allah says in the Surah 22 verse 7 that he is The Resurrecter.No where in the entire Quran Allah is called The Resurrection.It is a big difference Douggg.But Jesus said in the John 11 "I am the resurrection" Jesus didnot say that he is the resurrecter.He said I am the resurrection but didnot say I am the resurrecter.

 Regarding Alpha and Omega please visit:

 http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=150

 http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=151

 http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=153

 http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=155

 http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=156


 Now regarding Jesus saying I am The Truth.Context of verse doesnot prove that Jesus is God.The following article belongs to the Muslim-SA@acsu.buffalo.eduIslamic Student Organization:

 
 "In my Father's house are many mansions (dwelling places);if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a mansion (a dwelling place)for you."

The above statement is quite clear. It is in exact conformance to the teachings of theQur'an. In the Qur'an we are told how God sent messengers to all tribes and nations. Weare told that the basic message which was given to each of these tribes was the same:"Worship God alone and worship none else." Some of the secondary details of thisworship might differ from one tribe or nation to the next according to God's infinitewisdom and his knowledge of those people. It was made very clear to each prophet that hewas not to preach to anyone but his own people. It was further made clear to thismessenger's people that if they were to obey him that they would receive the reward ofGod. God would not hold them accountable for what any other tribe or nation did or did notdo. This would continue until God's last messenger, Muhammad (pbuh) would be sent to allmankind as the seal of the prophets.
This is exactly what Jesus is saying here. He said that in God's mansion there are "many"rooms. Jesus was sent to guide to only one of them. The countless other rooms werereserved for other tribes and nations if they would obey their messengers. However, Jesuswas telling his followers that they need not worry themselves about the other rooms.Anyone from among his people who wished to enter into the room which was reserved for themcould only do so if they followed Jesus and obeyed his command. So Jesus confirmed that hewas going to prepare "a" mansion and not "all" the mansions in"my Father's house".

Further, the verse clearly states that Jesus was the "WAY" to a mansion. Hedid not say that he is the "DESTINATION" which would be the case if he were God.What else would we expect a prophet of God to say except "I am the'way' to God's mercy"? That is his job. That is what a prophet does.It is why God chose him in the first place; in order to guide to the mercy of God.This is indeed confirmed in John 10:9 where Jesus tells us that he is "the door"to "the pasture." In other words, he is the "prophet" who guides hispeople to "heaven" (see also Jn. 12:44). Once again, this is the message ofIslam.
 

 

 

 
]]> Thu, 19 May 2011 14:33:48 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=155660#155660 From where did the trinity teaching come? : To DougggHi Mansoor, &#034;...and... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=155659#155659 Author: Mansoor_ali
Subject: 12519
Posted: 19 May 2011 at 1:53pm


 To Douggg

 Hi Mansoor, "...and from Jesus Christ" is verifying that he is the Almighty who is, who was, and who is to come.

 
 My Response to Douggg

 Jesus is NOT the one who is and which was and is to come,take note:

 Revelation 1:2-5(NIV)

  who testifies to everything he saw—that is, the word of God and the testimony of Jesus Christ. 3 Blessed is the one who reads aloud the words of this prophecy, and blessed are those who hear it and take to heart what is written in it, because the time is near.
Greetings and Doxology
 4 John,

   To the seven churches in the province of Asia:

   Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits before his throne, 5 and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth.


 So as you could seefor yourself, the one who is and was and is to come is not Jesus.Lets break it down:

 John to the seven churches in the province of Asia:Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come.

 This is THE God talking not Jesus,because note now what Jesus says means he is not the one speaking:

 5 and from Jesus Christ,


 AND FROM JESUS meaning that the first speaker was not Jesus or it would not say AND Jesus.The fact it says AND Jesus shows the one who said I was and is and to come was not Jesus!

 AND FROM JESUS,meaning Jesus is a different person than the one who said I was and is to come.So this is crystal clear proof that the Revelation 1 is not Jesus since the speaker of Revelation 1 is the one who is,the one that was,and the one who will come and that my friend is not Jesus because there was a distinction made between the two.


 



 




]]> Thu, 19 May 2011 13:53:29 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=155659#155659 From where did the trinity teaching come? : To AgnesDeiMansoor, you really... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=155657#155657 Author: Mansoor_ali
Subject: 12519
Posted: 19 May 2011 at 1:05pm


 To AgnesDei

 Mansoor, you really need to study the Bible with your eyes open.  YES, Jesus says many times that He is God.....He says they are "the same", "the Father and I ARE ONE."  You are trying to reinterpret these verses, but to do so is heresy.  Jesus Christ says HE IS THE FATHER (GOD), where he says 'we are one'.  Why do you try so hard NOT to believe this?  Are you calling Jesus a liar?  I hope not, my friend. 
 
Peace be with you,
Patty

 Response by brother Shabir Ally to John 10 verse 30:

 " John 10:30 is often quotedto show that Jesus is equal to God.  But when you read the verse in its context youwill find that the passage taken as a whole proves the opposite. People are often contentto quote the verse in isolation to show that Jesus said “I and the Father areone” and then the Jews picked up stones to stone him because they understood him tomean that he is claiming to be God.  It is only when you read the passage to see whatcomes before and after this verse that you will realise thatthe Jews misunderstood what Jesus was saying.  In fact, Jesus tried to explain whathe meant, and the explanation he gave is still in the Bible for everyone to see.  Itis surprising that so many people who say they love Jesus ignore his explanation andrepeat the mistake which was made by the enemies of Jesus…When Jesus said, “I and theFather are one” (chapter 10, verse 30) the Jews picked up stones to stone him (verse31).  Jesus could not understand their behaviour, becausehe had said nothing wrong.  So he asked them what he had done wrong to make them wantto stone him (verse 32).  They replied that Jesus had committed blasphemy since hewas only a man yet he claimed to be God (verse 33).  But it is clear from the Biblepassage above that Jesus did not claim to be God.  He only claimed to be the Christ(verse 25).  When did he say he was God?  They were deliberately misquotingJesus and putting words in his mouth which they will try to use later as false evidence against him so they could have an excuse to kill him. "
]]> Thu, 19 May 2011 13:05:29 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=155657#155657 From where did the trinity teaching come? : Originally posted by... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=155646#155646 Author: Douggg
Subject: 12519
Posted: 19 May 2011 at 3:40am

Originally posted by honeto

Dougg,
surely, one cover up leads to many exposures!
 
Also you are putting limits to God when you wrote:"God entered this world to save mankind from the penalty of sin which is eternal death"
 
What you are saying is that for the Almighty to forgive sins is a difficults tasks or it has some steps or prerequisites? You indeed fall into your limited thinking my friend.


Hasan, it is not me who is putting limits on God.  It is Islam. 

You are thinking it is a case of God forgiving sins. 

Yes, Jesus forgave people of their sins, such as the woman accused of adultery - before he was crucified.  

What you are not getting by the power of the cross is that God because of Christ Jesus dying on the cross,  erased our past.    My sins, never happened.     Jesus is the Lamb of God slain from the foundation of the world (Revelation 13:8 ) .   My sins were put in him before I was ever born.  

Unsaved persons, like muslims, will stand before God in their sins.    My sins, in my life here on earth never happened.   It is not just a case of forgiveness.   It is erasing those sins. 

You hard drive has every sin you ever committed recorded on it, waiting to be played back on the day of judgment.    My hard drive is blank.   My sins never happened. 

Knowing this, what can Mohamed do for you now!  Mohamed didn't understand it.  He never did.   He was deceived by Satan. 

Also, you forgot those words you hold holy and from God, where Jesus is quoted to have said: " if I had not come they would not have any sin"  What you are saying is in contradiction to what Jesus has been quoted to have said in the Bible.


Hasan, for some reason the posting program is not working correctly.   It doesn't want to show your text.    You had referred to " if I had not come they would not have any sin".

I don't know what translation you are using, but as you quoted it, it is a misrepresentation to what the text says.   Go to the kjv and reread that verse.  

If according to you Jesus has laid down his live willingly, why would these words be quoted to have come out of his mouth when on the cross according to the Bible: 
"oh my God, why have you forsaken me"


Jesus said those words because he who knew no sin, became our sin.    


Doug L.



Edited by Douggg - 19 May 2011 at 10:03pm]]> Thu, 19 May 2011 03:40:55 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=155646#155646 From where did the trinity teaching come? : Dougg, surely, one cover up... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=155629#155629 Author: honeto
Subject: 12519
Posted: 18 May 2011 at 3:10pm

Dougg,
surely, one cover up leads to many exposures!
 
Also you are putting limits to God when you wrote:
"God entered this world to save mankind from the penalty of sin which is eternal death"
 
What you are saying is that for the Almighty to forgive sins is a difficults tasks or it has some steps or prerequisites? You indeed fall into your limited thinking my friend. God is All Powerful and able to fully execute His will without any steps or need. GOD IS FREE OF ALL NEEDS. If God wants to forgive no scene or drama, or liek you say a lamb, no lamb is needed. For us to understand it is said, that its like "fbe" and it is.
 
Also, you forgot those words you hold holy and from God, where Jesus is quoted to have said: " if I had not come they would not have any sin"
What you are saying is in contradiction to what Jesus has been quoted to have said in the Bible.
If according to you Jesus has laid down his live willingly, why would these words be quoted to have come out of his mouth when on the cross according to the Bible: 
"oh my God, why have you forsaken me"
So all those quotes in the Bible suggest that those contradiction in the words of God are man's handywork, not to mention they contradict the belief tend you preach.
 
Peace,
Hasan
 


Edited by honeto - 18 May 2011 at 3:20pm]]> Wed, 18 May 2011 15:10:36 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=155629#155629 From where did the trinity teaching come? : Originally posted by honetoDougg,... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=155615#155615 Author: Douggg
Subject: 12519
Posted: 18 May 2011 at 4:54am

Originally posted by honeto

Dougg,
you admit and agree with me on the point that no one was expecting God to come on earth when they were expecting the Messiah. But then you repeat the sensless phrase again "God came on earth  to be with us? and to pay for us through killing himself? "


Hi Hasan,

God entered this world to save mankind from the penalty of sin which is eternal death.   "killing himself" is a misrepresentation.   Jesus laid down his life willingly.   A person is either in Christ or in their sins.    Muslims are in their sins because they reject God's way to wash those sins away.    

We are carefull when giving account in front of a lawyer or the law, but such a lose tongue in front of God (because you don't see the justice right away? and to say things like God is a man, who was born through a woman, ate, cried, served his God, died and so on.


You will never and have never heard a Christian say that Jesus became God, or that a man borne of a woman became God.     The person born into this world was God of all eternity before he entered this world.

Or like a Hindus' claim that God came in the form of his creatures, like an elephant or a monkey? I see no difference between you two. Both are uttering blasphemy for which you will held accountable one day for sure, unless you ask His forgiveness and never utter such a thing again.   Hasan


Man was created in the image of God, not the animals.    So how can God have an image?   Why?   What did God have in store?

Revelation 13:8 .....who names are not written in the book of life of the lamb slain from the foundation of the world.






Edited by Douggg - 18 May 2011 at 4:59am]]> Wed, 18 May 2011 04:54:16 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=155615#155615 From where did the trinity teaching come? : Dougg, you admit and agree with... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=155234#155234 Author: honeto
Subject: 12519
Posted: 09 May 2011 at 2:38pm

Dougg,
you admit and agree with me on the point that no one was expecting God to come on earth when they were expecting the Messiah. But then you repeat the sensless phrase again "God came on earth  to be with us? and to pay for us through killing himself? "
You will never make sense with that, because it is not true, and a baseless and untrue thing will never make sense. 
I agree that we cannot fully undersand or know God, God's love, and if I may add His Justice but that does not give us any right to say and utter anything about God that we like, while you agree with me that we have limits over knowledge. Also it is our obligation to think and weigh before we utter anything. We are carefull when giving account in front of a lawyer or the law, but such a lose tongue in front of God (because you don't see the justice right away? and to say things like God is a man, who was born through a woman, ate, cried, served his God, died and so on. Or like a Hindus' claim that God came in the form of his creatures, like an elephant or a monkey? I see no difference between you two. Both are uttering blasphemy for which you will held accountable one day for sure, unless you ask His forgiveness and never utter such a thing again.
Hasan


Edited by honeto - 09 May 2011 at 2:57pm]]> Mon, 09 May 2011 14:38:48 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=155234#155234 From where did the trinity teaching come? : Originally posted by Mansoor_aliResponse... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=155212#155212 Author: Douggg
Subject: 12519
Posted: 09 May 2011 at 6:28am

Originally posted by Mansoor_ali


Response by brother Ali Ataie:

 The Christian may inform you that Jesus claimed to be
"the truth," or al-Haqq in Arabic, which is one of the Divine attributes of God mentioned in the Qur’an. "He is using a divine attribute to refer to himself, an attribute found in your scripture," he will say. Inform him that the words Ra’uf and Rahim, mean Kind and Merciful respectively, are also attributed to God in the Qur’an. However, Allah reveals in Surah Tawbah, verse 128: "Now hath come unto you a Messenger from amongst yourselves: it grieves him that ye should perish: ardently anxious is he over you: to the Believers he is most kind and merciful" (Qur’an 9:128). The words Allah used to describe the character of his Beloved are Ra’uf and Rahim, two of the divine attributes! Does this make Muhammad God? Certainly not. He simply embodies many of the sacred attributes at a much smaller, human level. By the same token, we can say that Muhammad is Great, Noble, Generous, and Truth He is not, however, "The Creator," or "The Giver of Life and Death." These attributes are solely for God and nowhere does Jesus ever claim to be these things.(Source)


Hi Mansoor, did Mohamed say with his own lips that he is "The Truth", "The Resurrection", the Alpha and Omega, the first and the last?    I don't think so.
I don't think Mohamed made any of those claims.    Nor do I think that others said those things about him.   Because those attributes are unique to God.   And Jesus with his own lips said those things about himself.    I quoted and provided the verses.

Your source Ali Ataie is making a strawman argument because the two attributes of kind and merciful are not the three attributes that I referred to.

Doug L.

]]> Mon, 09 May 2011 06:28:02 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=155212#155212 From where did the trinity teaching come? : The Bible has a problem. It cannot... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=155176#155176 Author: islamispeace
Subject: 12519
Posted: 08 May 2011 at 2:52pm

The Bible has a problem.  It cannot make up its mind whether Jesus is God or not. Christians happily point to verses where Jesus supposedly says "I and the Father are one", but then when someone points out that Jesus also said "I am going to your God and my God", they dismiss it as irrelevant and say things like "well Jesus is both man and God and also his son".  For Muslims, this is the ultimate heresy.  It shows that the Bible is the work of multiple hands.  Jesus was not the liar.  The people who tried to speak in his name and created a new ideology were the liars. 
]]> Sun, 08 May 2011 14:52:57 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=155176#155176 From where did the trinity teaching come? : Originally posted by Mansoor_aliTo... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=155164#155164 Author: AgnesDei
Subject: 12519
Posted: 08 May 2011 at 7:19am

Originally posted by Mansoor_ali


 To Douggg

 Your god Allah has 99 names.   All equal.  Is your god's name "the Truth"?  Yes.   Jesus with his own mouth said I am the Truth....John 14:6

 Response by brother Ali Ataie:

 The Christian may inform you that Jesus claimed to be
"the truth," or al-Haqq in Arabic, which is one of the Divine attributes of God mentioned in the Qur’an. "He is using a divine attribute to refer to himself, an attribute found in your scripture," he will say. Inform him that the words Ra’uf and Rahim, mean Kind and Merciful respectively, are also attributed to God in the Qur’an. However, Allah reveals in Surah Tawbah, verse 128: "Now hath come unto you a Messenger from amongst yourselves: it grieves him that ye should perish: ardently anxious is he over you: to the Believers he is most kind and merciful" (Qur’an 9:128). The words Allah used to describe the character of his Beloved are Ra’uf and Rahim, two of the divine attributes! Does this make Muhammad God? Certainly not. He simply embodies many of the sacred attributes at a much smaller, human level. By the same token, we can say that Muhammad is Great, Noble, Generous, and Truth He is not, however, "The Creator," or "The Giver of Life and Death." These attributes are solely for God and nowhere does Jesus ever claim to be these things.(Source)
 
Mansoor, you really need to study the Bible with your eyes open.  YES, Jesus says many times that He is God.....He says they are "the same", "the Father and I ARE ONE."  You are trying to reinterpret these verses, but to do so is heresy.  Jesus Christ says HE IS THE FATHER (GOD), where he says 'we are one'.  Why do you try so hard NOT to believe this?  Are you calling Jesus a liar?  I hope not, my friend. 
 
Peace be with you,
Patty
]]> Sun, 08 May 2011 07:19:25 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=155164#155164 From where did the trinity teaching come? : To DougggYour god Allah has 99... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=155143#155143 Author: Mansoor_ali
Subject: 12519
Posted: 08 May 2011 at 2:00am


 To Douggg

 Your god Allah has 99 names.   All equal.  Is your god's name "the Truth"?  Yes.   Jesus with his own mouth said I am the Truth....John 14:6

 Response by brother Ali Ataie:

 The Christian may inform you that Jesus claimed to be
"the truth," or al-Haqq in Arabic, which is one of the Divine attributes of God mentioned in the Qur’an. "He is using a divine attribute to refer to himself, an attribute found in your scripture," he will say. Inform him that the words Ra’uf and Rahim, mean Kind and Merciful respectively, are also attributed to God in the Qur’an. However, Allah reveals in Surah Tawbah, verse 128: "Now hath come unto you a Messenger from amongst yourselves: it grieves him that ye should perish: ardently anxious is he over you: to the Believers he is most kind and merciful" (Qur’an 9:128). The words Allah used to describe the character of his Beloved are Ra’uf and Rahim, two of the divine attributes! Does this make Muhammad God? Certainly not. He simply embodies many of the sacred attributes at a much smaller, human level. By the same token, we can say that Muhammad is Great, Noble, Generous, and Truth He is not, however, "The Creator," or "The Giver of Life and Death." These attributes are solely for God and nowhere does Jesus ever claim to be these things.(Source)]]> Sun, 08 May 2011 02:00:43 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=155143#155143 From where did the trinity teaching come? : Originally posted by... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=155125#155125 Author: Douggg
Subject: 12519
Posted: 07 May 2011 at 1:09pm

Originally posted by Mansoor_ali


 To Douggg

 Hi Mansoor,  the Lord Jesus is the Lord God.   In all of those translations is this phrase: "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty".  

The phrase "who is to come" identifies the Lord God as Lord Jesus who will be returning to his world.   That's why I included from the end of Revelation, 22:20.  " Even so, come, Lord Jesus."

 20He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

 Read Revelation 1:4 and 5 carefully:

 Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits before his throne,and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth(NIV).

 You see the difference?The separation between “the one who was, is and is to come” and Christ can be clearly seen.The one “who is, and who was and who is to come” is God not Jesus Christ.

 Recommended:
 http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=150
 


Hi Mansoor, "...and from Jesus Christ" is verifying that he is the Almighty who is, who was, and who is to come.    Is Mohamed's god Allah "is to come"?
Jesus is coming.

Why didn't the disciples call Jesus or refer to Jesus as Jesus "Christ" during his ministry years?  Except here, Matt 16:13-17.  Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.   In the ot, God says He is the only Savior.

Yet, why did Jesus make such a point of referring to himself as the Son of Man, even when he returns to this earth in great glory?     It is because God became one of us, the Son of Man, that we may know Him forever, and in order to have that fellowship we have to be cleaned up washed from our sins and recreated, which Christians are looking forward to completion on the day of our resurrection, or if we are alive at the time, being changed in the twinkling of an eye.   For we cannot stand before him in our sins.

Muslims reject God's offer and think that 50% clean is good enough.    Who said in the gospels, "if thou be the Son of God..."?     Mohamed also says that God has no Sons.....so guess where that message came from?

Doug L.

 


Edited by Douggg - 07 May 2011 at 1:45pm]]> Sat, 07 May 2011 13:09:20 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=155125#155125 From where did the trinity teaching come? : Originally posted by honeto Originally... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=155124#155124 Author: Douggg
Subject: 12519
Posted: 07 May 2011 at 12:28pm

Originally posted by honeto

Originally posted by Douggg

Originally posted by Mansoor_ali


I think you didnot read NIV and NASB carefully.Let me quote Revelation 1:8

 I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.”(NIV)

 I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."(NASB)

 Now i am also quoting RSV:

 "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.

 "I am the Alpha and the Omega" this was a statement of God and not a statement of Prophet Jesus.

Hi Mansoor,  the Lord Jesus is the Lord God.   In all of those translations is this phrase: "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty".  

The phrase "who is to come" identifies the Lord God as Lord Jesus who will be returning to his world.   That's why I included from the end of Revelation, 22:20.  " Even so, come, Lord Jesus."

 20He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
 

Doug, 
 what you said above has problems:
1) Nowhere it says and no one was expecting God to come on earth. God existed and is and always is near to us to even know what is in our hearts.


Hi Hasan,

I agree that no-one was expecting God to enter this world as Jesus.   The Jews were expecting a messiah along the lines of king David.   In their understanding the main function of the messiah was to free them from control by the gentiles.   That's why when Jesus was crucified and buried, the disciples were despondent thinking all was lost.  

Satan, although he knew that Jesus was the Son of God, thought he had victory by preventing the Kingdom of God from being established on this earth by killing the King.

So, there is no evidence that anyone was expecting God to come. The Messiah is never meant to be God.


Not in their minds he wasn't expected to be God.   But God came to be the messiah - save us from our sins savior.

ex2) Anyone born through a woman certainly is not God.


No-one coming forth from a man is God.    One coming forth from God has to be God.   Jesus said he came forth from the Father. 

 Jesus said before Abraham was, I am.  

3) Anyone who is born, was nursed, cleaned, protected, and raised by a mother cannot be God.


Now you are making rules for God to obey? Shocked

4) The same Bible you quote has proved your claim as false when it states that Jesus has himself said: " I am going to my God and your God" or " my Father is Greater than I"
How do you dodge those powerful facts? It's never too late to correct one's self as long as you do it berfore you are unable to do so!



Man cannot fathom the unmeasurable love that God has for us.  God became one of us, so that we can eternally relate to Him.    Jesus calls himself the Son of Man all through the bible, yet His Father was not a man by his own account.

Doug L.

  


Edited by Douggg - 07 May 2011 at 1:46pm]]> Sat, 07 May 2011 12:28:02 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=155124#155124 From where did the trinity teaching come? : Originally posted by Mansoor_ali... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=155015#155015 Author: Mansoor_ali
Subject: 12519
Posted: 05 May 2011 at 10:14am

Originally posted by Mansoor_ali

  To Douggg

 John 11:25(NIV)

 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die;and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”

 I agree with this statement.He who believes in Jesus will live, by live itmeans you go to heaven, if you dont believe in Jesus you will die, by die itmeans going to hell. This applies to every prophet.Again Christ is not divine according to John 11:25.


Originally posted by Douggg

Seems to me that you are only believing part of that verse.  Do you believe that Jesus is the resurrection as he said?  Islam says that Allah is the resurrection.


Originally posted by islamispeace

Al-Ba'ith means "The Resurrector", not "The Resurrection". 

The Quran also says of Allah:

"Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;
Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;
He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;
And there is none like unto Him." (112:1-4)

None of this can apply to a mere mortal like Jesus (pbuh). 


 Good point by "islamispeace".

 Allah is called "The Resurrecter" in the Surah 22 verse 7.But no where in the entire Quran Allah is referred as "The Resurrection".And as far as my knowledge is concerned no where in the entire Bible Jesus said "I am the Resurrecter" but Jesus said in the John 11 verse "I am the resurrection" So there is a clear difference.

 But my question to Douggg:Why Jesus said "I am the resurrection"?Is he talking about his authority over death?Because we know Jesus raised Lazarus from a death.

 

 

 
]]> Thu, 05 May 2011 10:14:22 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=155015#155015 From where did the trinity teaching come? : To DougggHi Mansoor, the Lord... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=155007#155007 Author: Mansoor_ali
Subject: 12519
Posted: 05 May 2011 at 6:50am


 To Douggg

 Hi Mansoor,  the Lord Jesus is the Lord God.   In all of those translations is this phrase: "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty".  

The phrase "who is to come" identifies the Lord God as Lord Jesus who will be returning to his world.   That's why I included from the end of Revelation, 22:20.  " Even so, come, Lord Jesus."

 20He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

 Read Revelation 1:4 and 5 carefully:

 Grace and peace to you from him who is, and who was, and who is to come, and from the seven spirits before his throne,and from Jesus Christ, who is the faithful witness, the firstborn from the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth(NIV).

 You see the difference?The separation between “the one who was, is and is to come” and Christ can be clearly seen.The one “who is, and who was and who is to come” is God not Jesus Christ.

 Recommended:
 http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=150
 

 
]]> Thu, 05 May 2011 06:50:12 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=155007#155007 From where did the trinity teaching come? : Originally posted by Douggg Originally... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=154987#154987 Author: honeto
Subject: 12519
Posted: 04 May 2011 at 11:43am

Originally posted by Douggg

Originally posted by Mansoor_ali


I think you didnot read NIV and NASB carefully.Let me quote Revelation 1:8

 I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.”(NIV)

 I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."(NASB)

 Now i am also quoting RSV:

 "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.

 "I am the Alpha and the Omega" this was a statement of God and not a statement of Prophet Jesus.


Hi Mansoor,  the Lord Jesus is the Lord God.   In all of those translations is this phrase: "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty".  

The phrase "who is to come" identifies the Lord God as Lord Jesus who will be returning to his world.   That's why I included from the end of Revelation, 22:20.  " Even so, come, Lord Jesus."

 20He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
 

Doug, 
 what you said above has problems:
1) Nowhere it says and no one was expecting God to come on earth. God existed and is and always is near to us to even know what is in our hearts.
So, there is no evidence that anyone was expecting God to come. The Messiah is never meant to be God.
2) Anyone born through a woman certainly is not God.
3) Anyone who is born, was nursed, cleaned, protected, and raised by a mother cannot be God.
4) The same Bible you quote has proved your claim as false when it states that Jesus has himself said: " I am going to my God and your God" or " my Father is Greater than I"
How do you dodge those powerful facts? It's never too late to correct one's self as long as you do it berfore you are unable to do so!
Hasan


Edited by honeto - 04 May 2011 at 11:45am]]> Wed, 04 May 2011 11:43:12 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=154987#154987 From where did the trinity teaching come? : Originally posted by Douggg Originally... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=154768#154768 Author: islamispeace
Subject: 12519
Posted: 28 April 2011 at 3:14pm

Originally posted by Douggg

Originally posted by Mansoor_ali


 To Douggg

 John 11:25(NIV)

 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die;and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”

 I agree with this statement.He who believes in Jesus will live, by live itmeans you go to heaven, if you dont believe in Jesus you will die, by die itmeans going to hell. This applies to every prophet.Again Christ is not divine according to John 11:25.


Seems to me that you are only believing part of that verse.  Do you believe that Jesus is the resurrection as he said?  Islam says that Allah is the resurrection.


Al-Ba'ith means "The Resurrector", not "The Resurrection". 

The Quran also says of Allah:

"Say: He is Allah, the One and Only;
Allah, the Eternal, Absolute;
He begetteth not, nor is He begotten;
And there is none like unto Him." (112:1-4)

None of this can apply to a mere mortal like Jesus (pbuh). 
]]> Thu, 28 Apr 2011 15:14:10 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=154768#154768 From where did the trinity teaching come? : Originally posted by... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=154733#154733 Author: Douggg
Subject: 12519
Posted: 28 April 2011 at 12:31am

Originally posted by Mansoor_ali


 To Douggg

 John 11:25(NIV)

 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die;and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”

 I agree with this statement.He who believes in Jesus will live, by live itmeans you go to heaven, if you dont believe in Jesus you will die, by die itmeans going to hell. This applies to every prophet.Again Christ is not divine according to John 11:25.


Seems to me that you are only believing part of that verse.  Do you believe that Jesus is the resurrection as he said?  Islam says that Allah is the resurrection.
 

 


Edited by Douggg - 28 April 2011 at 12:43am]]> Thu, 28 Apr 2011 00:31:50 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=154733#154733 From where did the trinity teaching come? : Originally posted... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=154731#154731 Author: Douggg
Subject: 12519
Posted: 28 April 2011 at 12:23am

Originally posted by Mansoor_ali


I think you didnot read NIV and NASB carefully.Let me quote Revelation 1:8

 I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.”(NIV)

 I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."(NASB)

 Now i am also quoting RSV:

 "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.

 "I am the Alpha and the Omega" this was a statement of God and not a statement of Prophet Jesus.


Hi Mansoor,  the Lord Jesus is the Lord God.   In all of those translations is this phrase: "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty".  

The phrase "who is to come" identifies the Lord God as Lord Jesus who will be returning to his world.   That's why I included from the end of Revelation, 22:20.  " Even so, come, Lord Jesus."

 20He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
 



Edited by Douggg - 28 April 2011 at 12:34am]]> Thu, 28 Apr 2011 00:23:22 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=154731#154731 From where did the trinity teaching come? : To Douggg.You quoted two verses... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=154690#154690 Author: Mansoor_ali
Subject: 12519
Posted: 27 April 2011 at 12:22am


 To Douggg.

 You quoted two verses of John(John 14:6 and John 11:25) and one verse of Revelation(Revelation 1:11).Now i will talk about Gospel of John.I will put another picture of Gospel of John.

 The following is taken by Shabir Ally work which you can find here.

 
 Did Jesus say everything John says he said?

Consider the following sayings of Jesus found inJohn's Gospel alone:

John 14:9: "Whoever has seen me has seen the Father."

John 6:35: "And Jesus said unto them, I am thebread of life."

John 8:12: "I am the light of the world."

John 8:58: "Before Abraham was, I am."

John 10:7: "I am the door of the sheep."

John 11 :25: "I am the resurrection, and thelife."

John 14:6: "I am the way, the truth, and thelife."

John 15: 1 "I am thetrue vine."


Christian scholars tell usthat if Jesus had made all these fantastic claims abouthimself, the first three gospels would surely have recordedthem. Mark was written around 70 CE, followed byMatthew and Luke somewhere between 80-90 CE John,written around 100 CE, was the last of the four canonizedgospels. The Christian scholar James Dunn writes in his bookThe Evidence for Jesus: "If they were part of theoriginal words of Jesus himself, how could it be that only Johnpicked them up and none of the others? Call it scholarlyskepticism ifyou like, but I find it almost incredible that suchsayings should have been neglected had they been knownas a feature of Jesus'teaching. If the 'I am' hadbeen part of the original tradition, it is very hardindeed to explain why none ofthe other three evangelists madeuse of them." (p. 3 6)

 Similarly, the New AmericanBible tells us in its introduction, under theheading How to Read Your Bible:

"It is difficult to knowwhether the words or sayings attributed to Jesus arewritten exactly as he spoke them....The Church was so firmlyconvinced that ... Jesus ... taught through her, that sheexpressed her teaching in the form of Jesus' sayings." (St.Joseph Medium Size Edition, p.23)

What we have in John, then iswhat people were saying about Jesus at the time Johnwas written (about 70 years after Jesus was raised up).The writer of John simply expressed those ideas as ifJesus had said them. Rev.James Dunn says further inhis book that, almost certainly,the writer of the fourthgospel "was not concerned with the sort of questions whichtrouble some Christians today Did Jesus actually say this? Didhe use these precise words? and so on." (FheEvidence/or Jesus, p. 43)

Scholars have concluded thatthis gospel was originally written in a simple fonn. Butthis gospel was later on, as the New Jerusalem Bible says,"amplified and developed" in several stages during thesecond half of the first century." (p. 1742)

It says further: "It istoday freely accepted that the fourth Gospel underwent a complexdevelopment before it reached its final form."(p. 1742)

On a previous page, the sameBible says: "It would seem that we have only theend-stage of a slow process that has brought together not onlycomponent parts of different ages, but also corrections,additions and sometimes even more than one revision of thesame discourse." (p. 1739)

The New American Bible saysthat most scholars "have come to the conclusion thatthe inconsistencies were probably produced bysubsequent editing in which homogeneous materials wereadded to a shorter original."(New American Bible,RevisedNew Testament. p. 143)

 

]]> Wed, 27 Apr 2011 00:22:35 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=154690#154690 From where did the trinity teaching come? : To DougggJohn 11:25(NIV)Jesus... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=154686#154686 Author: Mansoor_ali
Subject: 12519
Posted: 26 April 2011 at 11:00pm


 To Douggg

 John 11:25(NIV)

 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die;and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”

 I agree with this statement.He who believes in Jesus will live, by live itmeans you go to heaven, if you dont believe in Jesus you will die, by die itmeans going to hell. This applies to every prophet.Again Christ is not divine according to John 11:25.

 

 
]]> Tue, 26 Apr 2011 23:00:00 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=154686#154686 From where did the trinity teaching come? : To Douggg.Hi Mansoor, I think... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=154682#154682 Author: Mansoor_ali
Subject: 12519
Posted: 26 April 2011 at 8:34pm


 To Douggg.

 Hi Mansoor, I think you meant your post to be addressed to me, not
Jack.

 I apologize.It is just a human error.

 No prophet says that he is the Truth, nor the Way, nor the Life.Who else in the bible says he is the Truth?

 Here is Dr.Zakir Naik Response to "I am the Way,the Truth and the Light"
 Click http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LEYFRMzGJPo

 You cited the NIV and the NASB as not having Alpha and Omega in Revelation 1:11.

 Please go to verse 1:8 in both the NIV and NASB.   The Alpha and Omega are in that verse, in the kjv, NIV, and NASB.

 8I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. (KJV)

 8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.” (NIV)

 8"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."

 20He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.

 I think you didnot read NIV and NASB carefully.Let me quote Revelation 1:8

 I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.”(NIV)

 I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."(NASB)

 Now i am also quoting RSV:

 "I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.

 "I am the Alpha and the Omega" this was a statement of God and not a statement of Prophet Jesus.

 Recommended:
 http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=Content&pa=showpage&pid=150

 

 

 
 

 

 

 

 

 
]]> Tue, 26 Apr 2011 20:34:27 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=154682#154682 From where did the trinity teaching come? : Originally posted by Douggg Originally... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=154679#154679 Author: honeto
Subject: 12519
Posted: 26 April 2011 at 7:26pm

Originally posted by Douggg

Originally posted by honeto

To Agnes,
I  think Mansoor is right when he says that you put words in Jesus' mouth and let me show how.
You claim Jesus is God. You cannot produce a single claim and clarification by Jesus himself where he said: " I am God" you cannot.


Your god Allah has 99 names.   All equal.  Is your god's name "the Truth"?  Yes.   Jesus with his own mouth said I am the Truth....John 14:6

Is your god's name "the First" and "the Last"?
Yes.   Jesus with his own mouth said I am the First and Last...Revelation 1:11

Is your god's name "the Resurrection"?   Yes.
Jesus with his own mouth said I am the Resurrection....John 11:25


Doug L
Doug,
now can you address and answer to what I wrote and if you are wondering what I mean. I am asking is there a single claim by Jesus in the Bible where he said: " I am your God, worship me" like God has said in the OT and in the Quran. I have shown you where he did say that " I am going to my God and your God" or that " my father is greater than I".
Hasan


Edited by honeto - 26 April 2011 at 7:27pm]]> Tue, 26 Apr 2011 19:26:19 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=154679#154679 From where did the trinity teaching come? : To AgnesYou are leaving out the... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=154678#154678 Author: Mansoor_ali
Subject: 12519
Posted: 26 April 2011 at 7:02pm


 To Agnes

 You are leaving out the sentence where Jesus also told Phillip, "the Father and I ARE ONE."

 "Jesus and the Father are One" they are one in purpose,will but not in essence.



 

 



]]> Tue, 26 Apr 2011 19:02:05 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=154678#154678 From where did the trinity teaching come? : Originally posted... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=154636#154636 Author: Douggg
Subject: 12519
Posted: 25 April 2011 at 11:04pm

Originally posted by Mansoor_ali


 To Jack

 Does John 14:6 prove divinity of Christ?

 Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.If you really know me, you will know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”

 The verse states that Jesus was the "WAY".What else would we expect a prophet of God to say except "I am the'way' to God's mercy"? That is his job. That is what a prophet does.It is why God chose him in the first place; in order to guide to the mercy of God.So John 14 verse 6 doesnot prove divinity of Christ.


Hi Mansoor, I think you meant your post to be addressed to me, not Jack.Smile

No prophet says that he is the Truth, nor the Way, nor the Life.  

Who else in the bible says he is the Truth?

*****************************************************
You cited the NIV and the NASB as not having Alpha and Omega in Revelation 1:11.

Please go to verse 1:8 in both the NIV and NASB.   The Alpha and Omega are in that verse, in the kjv, NIV, and NASB.

 8I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty. (KJV)

 8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.” (NIV)

 8"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, "who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty."

 20He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly. Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.


 
 
Now What About John 11:25?

 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”

 Brother Sami Zaatri rightly responded to John 11:25:

 I have no problem in Jesus saying whoever believes in himthough he dies, will still live and everyone who believes in him shall neverdie. Muslims will agree with that, Jesus is a prophet, and all prophets shouldbe believed in, and Jesus is no different. Indeed if you believe in Jesus as aprophet and the messiah, then of course when you die you shall still live, Godwill reward you with heaven, and if you believe in him you will also never diein the sense of being doomed to hell for eternity which is worse than death.Jesus goes further on proving the point that he is a prophet the messiah whenhe asks: do you believe this? The lady responds in the affirmative, as any truebeliever back then should. Every true believer back then must have believed inJesus because he was a prophet, and if you did not, then the wrath of God wouldbe upon you. 


Does  Sami Zaatri deny that one of Allah's 99 names is "the resurrection".  

Jesus said with his own mouth that he is the resurrection.... and the life.   What other person in the bible say that he is the resurrection?

 
So Christ is not divine according to John 14:6,Revelation 1:11 and John 11:25.


Jesus has the same "unique" names, spoken with his own mouth, as Islam claims for Allah.   Which no-one else says of themselves.   If muslims claim Allah is divine then they are faced with the dilemma that  Jesus is God as well, because those three names Jesus said with his own mouth can only apply to God. (1) the Resurrection (2) the Truth (3) the Alpha and the Omega.

Al-Ba^ith
  • The Reserrector, The Raiser (from death), The One who resurrects His slaves after death for reward and/or punishment.

    • Al-'Awwal
  • The First, The One whose Existence is without a beginning.
    • Al-'Akhir
  • The Last, The One whose Existence is without an end.
    • Al-Haqq
  • The Truth, The True, The One who truly exists.


    • Doug L.

     

     

     

     

     



    Edited by Douggg - 25 April 2011 at 11:21pm    ]]>     Mon, 25 Apr 2011 23:04:21 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=154636#154636     From where did the trinity teaching come? : Originally posted by Mansoor_aliTo... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=154540#154540 Author: AgnesDei
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 24 April 2011 at 1:13pm

    Originally posted by Mansoor_ali


     To Agnes

     Shabir Ally explains the John 14:9

     In John 14:9 Jesus (peace be upon him) is quoted as saying: “Whoever has seen me has seen the Father.”  This is often misunderstood to mean that Jesus is God.  But Jesus clearly said that no one has seen God at any time (John 5:37).  Those who say that Jesus is God, are disagreeing with what Jesus himself said.  If Jesus was God why would he say to the people looking at him that they never saw God?  And why would the author of the 1st Letter of John in the Bible, writing some seventy years after Jesus was taken up, say that no one had ever seen God (1John 4:12) although he knew that multitudes had already seen Jesus?  The meaning of John 14:9 is not that Jesus is God, but that by knowing Jesus, one gets to know God, since Jesus teaches about God.  This meaning is confirmed by John 1:18 where the writer says that no one had ever seen God, but Jesus had made God known to the people.  In the 17th Chapter of the same Gospel, Jesus declared that eternal life means knowing that the Father whom Jesus worshipped is the only true God and that Jesus is the Messiah who was sent by God.(Is Jesus God? The Bible Says No!)
     
    To Mansoor_ali:
     
    You are leaving out the sentence where Jesus also told Phillip, "the Father and I ARE ONE."  The Trinity is (once again) comprised of the Father, the Son (Jesus), and the Holy Ghost.  No one has seen the Father, as He is a spirit, but Jesus in His human form is one separate entitity of the Holy Trinity, which included God.  Mansoor......since you and all people of the Islamic faith do not believe in the Holy Trinity, this is all an effort in futility. The Trinity is a mystery....as many things are.  It requires faith.  "Faith which surpasses all understanding."  I hope one day you might find that faith.  God's Peace to you,
    AgnesDei
    ]]>     Sun, 24 Apr 2011 13:13:54 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=154540#154540     From where did the trinity teaching come? : To JackDoes John 14:6 prove divinity... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=154519#154519 Author: Mansoor_ali
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 24 April 2011 at 6:32am


     To Jack

     Does John 14:6 prove divinity of Christ?

     Jesus answered, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.If you really know me, you will know my Father as well. From now on, you do know him and have seen him.”

     The verse states that Jesus was the "WAY".What else would we expect a prophet of God to say except "I am the'way' to God's mercy"? That is his job. That is what a prophet does.It is why God chose him in the first place; in order to guide to the mercy of God.So John 14 verse 6 doesnot prove divinity of Christ.

         Does Revelation 1:11 prove divinity of Christ?

     I quote a verse from KJV:

     Saying, I am Alpha and Omega, the first and the last: and, What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia; unto Ephesus, and unto Smyrna, and unto Pergamos, and unto Thyatira, and unto Sardis, and unto Philadelphia, and unto Laodicea.

     Now i will quote same verse from NIV and NASB:

    “Write on a scroll what you see and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus, Smyrna, Pergamum, Thyatira, Sardis, Philadelphia and Laodicea.”(NIV)

     saying, "Write in a book what you see, and send it to the seven churches: to Ephesus and to Smyrna and to Pergamum and to hyatira and to Sardis and to Philadelphia and to Laodicea." (NASB)

     You see a difference?The titles Alpha and Omega     are not in NIV as well as NASB.Why?Because textual scholars agree that the phrase is an addition to the text, and thus versions like the NIV, NASB, etc., do not have the addition.

     Recommended:

      Arche of the Creation of God as Alpha and Omega?


     
     Now What About John 11:25?

     Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”

     Brother Sami Zaatri rightly responded to John 11:25:

     I have no problem in Jesus saying whoever believes in himthough he dies, will still live and everyone who believes in him shall neverdie. Muslims will agree with that, Jesus is a prophet, and all prophets shouldbe believed in, and Jesus is no different. Indeed if you believe in Jesus as aprophet and the messiah, then of course when you die you shall still live, Godwill reward you with heaven, and if you believe in him you will also never diein the sense of being doomed to hell for eternity which is worse than death.Jesus goes further on proving the point that he is a prophet the messiah whenhe asks: do you believe this? The lady responds in the affirmative, as any truebeliever back then should. Every true believer back then must have believed inJesus because he was a prophet, and if you did not, then the wrath of God wouldbe upon you.


     So Christ is not divine according to John 14:6,Revelation 1:11 and John 11:25.

     

     

     

     

     
    ]]>     Sun, 24 Apr 2011 06:32:24 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=154519#154519     From where did the trinity teaching come? : Originally posted by Mansoor_aliTo... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=154500#154500 Author: Douggg
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 23 April 2011 at 11:59pm

    Originally posted by Mansoor_ali


     To Douggg

     Your god Allah has 99 names.   All equal.  Is your god's name "the Truth"?  Yes.   Jesus with his own mouth said I am the Truth....John 14:6

    Is your god's name "the First" and "the Last"?
    Yes.   Jesus with his own mouth said I am the First and Last...Revelation 1:11

    Is your god's name "the Resurrection"?   Yes.
    Jesus with his own mouth said I am the Resurrection....John 11:25

     Quran describes various attributes of Allah Almighty.Among them are Ra'uf and Rahim meaning Kind and Merciful.In Surah 9:28,Prophet Muhammad is also described as     Ra'uf and Rahim so its mean Muhammad is also God?Ofcourse not.Prophet Muhammad is Ra'uf and Rahim in a limited sense unlike Allah.
    Same thing is applied to John 14:6,Revelation 1:11 and John 11:25 when you compare to Allah's attributes.


    Hi Mansoor, why would you even think that Mohamed was kind and merciful, I have no idea.   Did Mohamed say about himself, with his own mouth,
    that he was kind and merciful?   Anyway....

    Being kind and merciful attribute is not the same uniqueness as being "the resurrection", "the First and Last", and "the Truth".   No person can say those things about himself without meaning that he is saying that he is God.  

    What other person dares to say that he is "the resurrection", "the First and Last", and "the Truth" ?
    ]]>     Sat, 23 Apr 2011 23:59:40 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=154500#154500     From where did the trinity teaching come? : To AgnesShabir Ally explains the... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=154496#154496 Author: Mansoor_ali
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 23 April 2011 at 8:22pm


     To Agnes

     Shabir Ally explains the John 14:9

     In John 14:9 Jesus (peace beupon him) is quoted as saying: “Whoever has seen me has seen the Father.” This is often misunderstood to mean that Jesus is God.  But Jesus clearly saidthat no one has seen God at any time (John 5:37).  Those who say that Jesus is God, are disagreeing with what Jesus himself said.  If Jesus wasGod why would he say to the people looking at him that they never saw God?  And whywould the author of the 1st Letter of John in the Bible, writing some seventy years afterJesus was taken up, say that no one had ever seen God (1John 4:12) although he knew thatmultitudes had already seen Jesus?  The meaning of John 14:9 is not that Jesus isGod, but that by knowing Jesus, one gets to know God, since Jesus teaches about God. This meaning is confirmed by John 1:18 where the writer says that no one had everseen God, but Jesus had made God known to the people.  In the 17th Chapter of thesame Gospel, Jesus declared that eternal life means knowing that the Father whom Jesusworshipped is the only true God and that Jesus is the Messiah who was sent by God.(Is Jesus God? The Bible Says No!)]]>     Sat, 23 Apr 2011 20:22:16 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=154496#154496     From where did the trinity teaching come? : To DougggYour god Allah has 99... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=154495#154495 Author: Mansoor_ali
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 23 April 2011 at 7:57pm


     To Douggg

     Your god Allah has 99 names.   All equal.  Is your god's name "the Truth"?  Yes.   Jesus with his own mouth said I am the Truth....John 14:6

    Is your god's name "the First" and "the Last"?
    Yes.   Jesus with his own mouth said I am the First and Last...Revelation 1:11

    Is your god's name "the Resurrection"?   Yes.
    Jesus with his own mouth said I am the Resurrection....John 11:25

     Quran describes various attributes of Allah Almighty.Among them are Ra'uf and Rahim meaning Kind and Merciful.In Surah 9:28,Prophet Muhammad is also described as     Ra'uf and Rahim so its mean Muhammad is also God?Ofcourse not.Prophet Muhammad is Ra'uf and Rahim in a limited sense unlike Allah.
    Same thing is applied to John 14:6,Revelation 1:11 and John 11:25 when you compare to Allah's attributes.

     

     
    ]]>     Sat, 23 Apr 2011 19:57:13 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=154495#154495     From where did the trinity teaching come? : Originally posted by honetoTo... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=154408#154408 Author: AgnesDei
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 22 April 2011 at 5:32am

    Originally posted by honeto

    To Agnes,
    I  think Mansoor is right when he says that you put words in Jesus' mouth and let me show how.
    You claim Jesus is God. You cannot produce a single claim and clarification by Jesus himself where he said: " I am God" you cannot. To the contrary he has clearly said that he has a God.  We know that God does not have a God. Jesus has a God, when he said, I am going to...my God and your God (John 20:17)
    You say Jesus and God are equal or same. Now read this, and it is in complete contrast to your claim:
    "for the Father is greater than I" (John 14:28)
    Dont' let the truth affect you when accepting it expires, act now so you can benefit from it.
    Hasan
     
    There are many verses in the Gospel  (Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John) where Jesus states he is God.  Here is just one example which makes it perfectly clear that He is God, the Father:
     
    The Gospel of John 14:8 Philip said to him, “Lord, show us the Father, and it is enough for us.” 9 Jesus said to him, “Have I been with you so long, and you still do not know me, Philip? Whoever has seen me has seen the Father. How can you say, ‘Show us the Father’? 10 Do you not believe that I am in the Father and the Father is in me? The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own authority, but the Father who dwells in me does his works. 11 Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me, or else believe on account of the works themselves.

    This verse is crucial in Jesus shaped spirituality. It does not say that if we have seen Jesus we have an incomplete and inaccurate view of the Father. While there are obviously vast aspects of God that we can’t understand, all that we can understand about the Father is clearly seen in Jesus.

    Jesus is the Father’s revelation of himself. Not one revelation that needs dozens of other revelations in order to give an accurate picture, but “if you have seen me, you have seen the Father.”

    There are many other verses which I can post if you like, where Jesus tells that He is the Father/God.
     
    Please do not insult me by insinuating that I am putting words into the mouth of our beloved and precious Lord, Jesus Christ.  I do not insult you, and I deserve the same respect. 
     
    Peace be with you,
    AgnesDei
    ]]>     Fri, 22 Apr 2011 05:32:57 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=154408#154408     From where did the trinity teaching come? : Originally posted by honetoTo... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=154263#154263 Author: Douggg
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 20 April 2011 at 1:01am

    Originally posted by honeto

    To Agnes,
    I  think Mansoor is right when he says that you put words in Jesus' mouth and let me show how.
    You claim Jesus is God. You cannot produce a single claim and clarification by Jesus himself where he said: " I am God" you cannot.


    Your god Allah has 99 names.   All equal.  Is your god's name "the Truth"?  Yes.   Jesus with his own mouth said I am the Truth....John 14:6

    Is your god's name "the First" and "the Last"?
    Yes.   Jesus with his own mouth said I am the First and Last...Revelation 1:11

    Is your god's name "the Resurrection"?   Yes.
    Jesus with his own mouth said I am the Resurrection....John 11:25


    Doug L


    Edited by Douggg - 20 April 2011 at 1:04am    ]]>     Wed, 20 Apr 2011 01:01:53 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=154263#154263     From where did the trinity teaching come? : To Agnes, I think Mansoor is... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=154184#154184 Author: honeto
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 18 April 2011 at 2:15pm

    To Agnes,
    I  think Mansoor is right when he says that you put words in Jesus' mouth and let me show how.
    You claim Jesus is God. You cannot produce a single claim and clarification by Jesus himself where he said: " I am God" you cannot. To the contrary he has clearly said that he has a God.  We know that God does not have a God. Jesus has a God, when he said, I am going to...my God and your God (John 20:17)
    You say Jesus and God are equal or same. Now read this, and it is in complete contrast to your claim:
    "for the Father is greater than I" (John 14:28)
    Dont' let the truth affect you when accepting it expires, act now so you can benefit from it.
    Hasan


    Edited by honeto - 18 April 2011 at 2:20pm    ]]>     Mon, 18 Apr 2011 14:15:22 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=154184#154184     From where did the trinity teaching come? : To AgnesDei&#034;That all men... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=154150#154150 Author: Mansoor_ali
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 17 April 2011 at 6:22pm


     To AgnesDei

     "That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father"(John 5:23)
     
     How can you honour Jesus like the Father? Well here is a list of ways to honour Jesus as the Father:

    1- Believe in Jesus as a prophet and not a liar

    2- Help him

    3- Obey him

    So this is how you would obey Jesus as you honour the Father.

    You cannot honour Jesus by praying to him like you do with the Father, why? Well because Jesus himself taught you to pray to the Father and not to himself:

     Matthew 6:1-15

     1Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.

     2Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

     3But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:

     4That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.

     5And when thou prayest, thou shalt not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.

     6But thou, when thou prayest, enter into thy closet, and when thou hast shut thy door, pray to thy Father which is in secret; and thy Father which seeth in secret shall reward thee openly.

     7But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking.

     8Be not ye therefore like unto them: for your Father knoweth what things ye have need of, before ye ask him.

     9After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

     10Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

     11Give us this day our daily bread.

     12And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.

     13And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

     14For if ye forgive men their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you:

     15But if ye forgive not men their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses.

     So notice Jesus teaches men how to pray to the Father and so on, not to himself, therefore you cannot pray to Jesus in honour to him, because Jesus never asked for it, and the reason he never asked for it is because HE IS NOT GOD.

     Secondly, Jesus himself stated that the Father is greater than him(John 14:28)

     Jesus in John 14:28 states the Father is greater than him, so this also shows that you cannot honour Jesus as the Father, to do so would be a SIN. How can you honour a creation, a man who is lesser than God with God! How? This is a major sin to make this man Jesus equal with God when this man Jesus said the Father is GREATER THAN ME.

    As we have seen, this verse does not prove Jesus is God, not even close. When read in context it proves Jesus is not God but a prophet of God who is sent to the children of Israel and to make them believe in the one true God who sent him.

    ]]>     Sun, 17 Apr 2011 18:22:32 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=154150#154150     From where did the trinity teaching come? : To AgnesDeiThat all men should... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=154142#154142 Author: Mansoor_ali
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 17 April 2011 at 1:47pm


     To AgnesDei

     That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.(John 5:23)

         Notice Jesus says that if you do not honour him then you do not honour the Father. Now what does that mean?Any person who does not believe in a prophet of God disbelieves in God also, why? Because God is commanding you to believe in those prophets, and God is sending them revelations, to deny the prophet is to deny God.

         So therefore by honouring Jesus, you honour the Father, because you believe in Jesus, which means you believe God sent him with his doctrine, and in doing so this honours the Father. In fact let us continue quoting the verses:

         23That all men should honour the Son, even as they honour the Father. He that honoureth not the Son honoureth not the Father which hath sent him.

     24Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.

     Notice what Jesus is saying, he is saying the person who believes what he is saying, which is basically the doctrine of God, and believe in the ONE THAT SENT HIM will have everlasting life, which is heaven and they shall not be sent to eternal condemnation which is hell.

         This makes things even more clear now, to honour Jesus simply means believe in him, believe in him as a prophet, once you do this, you honour the Father since you believe the Father sent Jesus, and you believe in the doctrine of the Father, therefore you shall go to heaven!

     

     
    ]]>     Sun, 17 Apr 2011 13:47:56 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=154142#154142     From where did the trinity teaching come? : Originally posted by Mansoor_aliTo... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=153917#153917 Author: AgnesDei
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 13 April 2011 at 5:38am

    Originally posted by Mansoor_ali


     To AgnesDei

     Never did Jesus "admit" that he was ONLY a man.  However, if you study Christianity you will see that we believe that Jesus was both FULLY human and divine while he was here on earth.  

         No where Jesus claimed that he was both human and divine.You are putting your own words into the mouth of Jesus Christ.

    He told him to worship only the Lord thy God.....because that was who is was, and still is and always will be.   He did not say "worship ME only, because we are to worship the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, which are the 3 separate entities comprising the ONE eternal God.  Monsoor, Jesus is both the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

     No where Jesus said worship the Father,Son and Holy Spirit.Even in verse 10 of Matthew 4 Jesus didnot say "worship me" but he said "    Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’ Jesus here was clearly directing satan to GOD Almighty; a being other than Jesus. Jesus did not tell satan "worship me".

         "if you will bow down and worship me." It is crystal clear that satan knew Jesus as a Messenger from GOD Almighty, and not GOD Almighty Himself.  Otherwise, he wouldn't dare to tell his Creator that.

     
     
    My dear Mansoor,  I want to make one thing implicitly clear.....never would I attempt to put words into the mouth of Jesus Christ!  All I state comes from Him in the Holy Bible as it has been written over 2,000 years ago.  You say that you consider him at least one of the highest prophets, but if that is truly so, why would you not believe His words?  By not believing what He himself has said you are in essence calling Jesus a liar.
     
    Now, regarding the divinity and humanity of Jesus Christ, I offer you the following.  I hope this will help you see through the glass more clearly.
     

    The human nature of Jesus Christ

    "Against various forms of the heresy that denies Christ is true Man stand countless and clearest testimonies of the written and unwritten Word of God. The title that is characteristic of Jesus in the New Testament is Son of Man; it occurs some eighty times in the Gospels; it was His Own accustomed title for Himself. The phrase is Aramaic, and would seem to be an idiomatic way of saying "man". The life and death and resurrection of Christ would all be a lie were He not a man, and our Faith would be vain. (1 Corinthians 15:14). "For there is one God, and one mediator of God and men, the man Christ Jesus" (1 Timothy 2:5). Why, Christ even enumerates the parts of His Body. "See my hands and feet, that it is I myself; handle and see: for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as you see me to have" (Luke 24:39). St. Augustine says, in this matter: "If the Body of Christ was a fancy, then Christ erred; and if Christ erred, then He is not the Truth. But Christ is the Truth; hence His Body was not a fancy' (QQ. lxxxiii, q. 14; P.L., XL, 14). In regard to the human soul of Christ, the Scripture is equally clear. Only a human soul could have been sad and troubled. Christ says: "My soul is sorrowful even unto death" (Matthew 26:38). "Now is my soul troubled" (John 12:27). His obedience to the heavenly Father and to Mary and Joseph supposes a human soul (John 4:34; 5:30; 6:38; Luke 22:42). Finally Jesus was really born of Mary (Matthew 1:16), made of a woman (Galatians 4:4), after the angel had promised that He should be conceived of Mary (Luke 1:31); this woman is called the mother of Jesus (Matthew 1:18; 2:11; Luke 1:43; John 2:3); Christ is said to be really the seed of Abraham (Galatians 3:16), the son of David (Matthew 1:1), made of the seed of David according to the flesh (Romans 1:3), and the fruit of the loins of David (Acts 2:30). So clear is the testimony of Scripture to the perfect human nature of Jesus Christ, that the Fathers held it as a general principle that whatsoever the Word had not assumed was not healed, i.e., did not receive the effects of the Incarnation."

    Jesus most certainly tells us to honor/worship Him and the Father in the Gospel of John:
     
    "

    John 5:22-27 

    22 Moreover, the Father judges no one, but has entrusted all judgment to the Son, 23 that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. Whoever does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him.

       24 “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life. 25 Very truly I tell you, a time is coming and has now come when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God and those who hear will live. 26 For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself. 27 And he has given him authority to judge because he is the Son of Man. "

    • John 16:23-24, “And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you. Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full.”
    • John 14:13, “And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.”
    • John 15:16, “Ye have not chosen me, but I have chosen you, and ordained you, that ye should go and bring forth fruit, and that your fruit should remain: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you.
    • John 15:26-27, “But when the Comforter is come, whom I send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: And ye also shall bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.”
    • Acts 1:8, “But ye shall receive power after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judeaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.”

    Peace and Understanding,

    Agnes Dei
    ]]>     Wed, 13 Apr 2011 05:38:28 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=153917#153917     From where did the trinity teaching come? : To AgnesDeiNever did Jesus &#034;admit&#034;... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=153909#153909 Author: Mansoor_ali
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 13 April 2011 at 4:34am


     To AgnesDei

     Never did Jesus "admit" that he was ONLY a man.  However, if you study Christianity you will see that we believe that Jesus was both FULLY human and divine while he was here on earth.  

         No where Jesus claimed that he was both human and divine.You are putting your own words into the mouth of Jesus Christ.

    He told him to worship only the Lord thy God.....because that was who is was, and still is and always will be.   He did not say "worship ME only, because we are to worship the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, which are the 3 separate entities comprising the ONE eternal God.  Monsoor, Jesus is both the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

     No where Jesus said worship the Father,Son and Holy Spirit.Even in verse 10 of Matthew 4 Jesus didnot say "worship me" but he said "    Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’ Jesus here was clearly directing satan to GOD Almighty; a being other than Jesus. Jesus did not tell satan "worship me".

         "if you will bow downand worship me." It is crystal clear that satan knew Jesus as aMessenger from GOD Almighty, and not GOD Almighty Himself.  Otherwise, he wouldn'tdare to tell his Creator that.

     
    ]]>     Wed, 13 Apr 2011 04:34:31 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=153909#153909     From where did the trinity teaching come? : Posted by Hasan: &#034; Agnes, true,... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=153829#153829 Author: AgnesDei
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 10 April 2011 at 6:42pm

    Posted by Hasan:
     
    "
    Agnes,
    true, accroding to the Quran, Mary (may God bew pleased with her) was the a pure women, who God choose for a miracle virigin birth of a son, who was to be a prophet.
    Making her images and idols or of any living creature as a matter of fact is forbidden in Islam, and I see the same in OT. On top of that kneeling and asking in front of that creation of men and asking her favors is what else but idol worship. 
     
    Yes, we do ask each other to pray for us, but we do not ask anyone who is dead to pray for us, because they are human, and a human after death do not hear, only God Almighty can hear us, all the time. I know this practice of asking saints (on their graves) is a practice of a very small number of Muslims as well, but it is wrong. Like I said asking a dead person does not so anyone any good.
    Peace,
    Hasan"
     
    My dear Hasan,
     
    We do not worship idols.  It is a grave sin in the Catholic Church.  Their images are not to worship, but to remember them.  This is a real myth that we worship idols....not so.  We honor them for the Godly lives they led, and we strive to be more like them.  That's what the statues are about.  We do not believe the saints, including Mary, are spiritually dead.  They are dead to this life as we know it....but to die is to gain eternal life forever.  For this reason, we ask their help and intercession.
     
    Peace be with you,
    AgnesDei
    ]]>     Sun, 10 Apr 2011 18:42:20 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=153829#153829     From where did the trinity teaching come? : Originally posted by AgnesDei Originally... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=153826#153826 Author: honeto
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 10 April 2011 at 6:22pm

    Originally posted by AgnesDei

    Originally posted by honeto

    Originally posted by AgnesDei

    She is called the Mother of God because she is the mother of Jesus who is the Son, the 2nd person of the Holy Trinity.   GOD the father, Jesus the Son, and the Holy Spirit are 3 ENTITIES which combine to form ONE GOD.  She was chosen by God to be the mother of Jesus.  It is written in the Gospel of Luke.  Yes, you are correct, Hasan, I am a devout Roman Catholic.  I respect all people who are trying in their heart to follow God to the best of their ability. 

    In the end, when this life is over......that is when we'll see who was on the correct path and who was misguided.   Perhaps there are several paths which lead to the same destination, my friend.
     
    AgnesDei
     
     
    Hi Agnes,
    thanks for your input. I still feel I did not get reply to "why Mother of God" is not included while son and father is taught to be included in godhead?
     
    The Quran teaches us that when this life is over our chance to correct our path is over, you cannot reverse or go back to fix things when the reality of what you thought or did and of course that will depend on your belief, so it will be a primary question, what did you believe and why. That day you will not be able to put blame on anyone but yourself since the "buck stops with you" the individual.
    If by "paths" you mean beliefs, Islamic teachings say that only one way is accepted by God and that is: Submission to the Will of God, or Islam. If any submitt to anyone or anything else it will never be accepted and such person will recieve thier just recompense for doing so, those who deny God, God will deny them the bliss. By rejecting or by submitting to God and to no one else we do our part of chosing where we would like to end up. God is forgiving, who will forgive us our mistakes if we show that we have right intention and  we match up that intention with right pratice with the use of what God has given us. God has clearly stated that He will not forgive the sin of submission to anyone else beside Him or other than Him.
    So that's a very clear indication that there is only one way, and not many that lead to Him.
    Hasan
     
    We are taught the same thing, Hasan.  Once we die we cannot undo our sins.  We will pay for them.  The rejection of the Holy Spirit is the "unforgivable sin" in my belief. 
     
    Mary, the Mother of Jesus, hence, the Mother of God, is not a part of the triune Godhead because that is the way God wanted it to be.  She was chosen for a purpose......to bear His son, Jesus, the Christ.  Btw, we do not worship her or pray to her, as is commonly stated by non-Catholics.  We honor and adore her as the Mother of Jesus.  She was the purest of all women, and that was why God chose her to be his mother.  We ask her to pray for us and intercede for us to her Son.  Just the same as I might ask you to pray for me if I were in a terrible situation or if I was very ill.  Same thing.
     
    To sum up your original question, Mary was not chosen to share in the Trinity because God did not want her to.....He did not will it.  He chose her for other purposes.
     
    Be well, my friend,
    AgnesDei
     
    Agnes,
    true, accroding to the Quran, Mary (may God be pleased with her) was the a pure women, who God choose for a miracle virigin birth of a son, who was to be a prophet.
    Making her images and idols or of any living creature as a matter of fact is forbidden by God, both in Islam and in the Bible. I live in the Catholic heartland (not to mention my own wife comes from a Catholic background and I know a lot more than I write about Catholics) where people make altars in their homes with idols of stone or wood some of them are now made in China of plactic and other material as well.  They think these idols represent Mary, they kneel down in front of the statue and ask her favors. Is is anything else other than idol worship?
     
     
    Yes, we do ask each other to pray for us, but we do not ask anyone who is dead to pray for us, like I cannot ask my father (may God forgive him his mistakes and grant him Paradise) because he cannot hear me. So because he is a human and so was Mary, and a human after death do not hear, only God Almighty can hear us, all the time. I know this practice of asking saints (on their graves) is a practice of a very small number of Muslims as well, but it is wrong. Like I said asking a dead person does not do anyone any good, instead it is a form of disbelief and a sin.
    Peace,
    Hasan


    Edited by honeto - 10 April 2011 at 6:48pm    ]]>     Sun, 10 Apr 2011 18:22:35 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=153826#153826     From where did the trinity teaching come? : Originally posted by AgnesDei My... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=153808#153808 Author: IssaEl999
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 10 April 2011 at 8:20am

    Originally posted by AgnesDei

    My dear IssaEl,

    All of the statements you quote from Our Lord are correct.  He did say them.  It is quite easily understood if you read my scripture.  God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are ONE.  Three entities which comprise one God.  He was  speaking in the entity of God in those statements.  When Jesus cried out from the cross he was human.  Jesus was fully human in every way while he walked among us here one earth.  In the scripture where Jesus was being tempted by Satan, he rebuked him saying "thou shall not tempt the LORD THY GOD." 
     
    We just celebrated Saint Patrick's Day on the 17th.  St. Patrick of Ireland (I'm Irish too) used the shamrock to illustrate the Holy Trinity.  There are 3 leaves on the shamrock, yet it is one shamrock.  This is the same as the Trinity.  I know it is difficult for you to understand, and asking questions is good for us all.  It is a step toward learning and respecting the other person's faith.  It is a step toward peace. 
     
    On this Sunday may the God of us all bring you great peace and blessings!
     
     
    Al Injil ( The Evangel , Revelation In Arabic ) 22 Chapter Of The Prophet / Messiah Jesus 22 ; 18 - 19 [ Revealed 96 A.D. ]
    '' For Surely I Bear Witness To All Who Hear The Words Of This Prophecy In This Scroll , If Anyone Adds Unto These Things , So Allah Will Add Unto Him The Plagues Of The Things Written In This Book , And If Anyone Takes Away From The Words Of The Scroll Of This Prophecy , Allah Will Drop His Share From The Scroll Of Life And From The Holy City , And From What Is Written In This Scroll .
     
    Allah / Yahuwa has placed a Seal thereof , to protect this book from those glorly seekers who wish to Misguide The Unlearned . Allah chooses whom He wills to receive Divine Knowledge and Wisdom and Only He can decide when this Wisdom will be Disclosed .
     
    Al Qur'aan ( The Koran ) 114 Books Of Ahmad ( The Prophet / Apostle Muhammad ) 87 ; 269 [ Revealed 624 - 626 A.D. ]
    '' And He ( Allah ) Gives The ( Wisdom )The Know How To Whom He Pleases , And Whoever Is Given The ( Wisdom ) The Know How , Certainly Was Given A Lot Of Good Wealth , Success And Knowledge And None Will Remember , Except Those Who Have Brains ( Intellect ) .
     
     
    ]]>     Sun, 10 Apr 2011 08:20:18 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=153808#153808     From where did the trinity teaching come? : Originally posted by Mansoor_aliTo... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=153785#153785 Author: AgnesDei
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 09 April 2011 at 11:14am

    Originally posted by Mansoor_ali


     To AgnesDei

     My friend, in each of the verses you quoted from the Gospel of Matthew, Jesus is once again asserting that he and God are one.  It is seen especially in the 7th verse.  Where Satan is attempting to coerce Jesus into throwing himself down from the cliff, Jesus specifically says "Do not tempt the Lord thy God......meaning himself, as that is who Satan was tempting!

     
     Verse 4 says:

         Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.’[b]”

     Here Jesus clearly says that he is only a man.Jesus clearly admits his human nature in verse 4.How Jesus can be God after admitting his human nature in verse 4?Let us read further.Verse 8 and 9 say:

         8 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. 9 “All this I will give you,” he said, “if you will bow down and worship me.”

     Now if Jesus was God then how Satan could say to Jesus for worship him(Satan)?It clearly shows that even Satan knew that Jesus is not God but Christ,Messiah of God.Let's read verse 10:

     10 Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’[e]”

     If Jesus was God then why he didnot tell satan in these words "Worship me,and serve me only"?

         Jesus didnot say it.It further proves that Jesus is not God and     "thou shall not tempt 'the Lord thy God." is not referring to Jesus but Father.

     

     

     

     
     
    Never did Jesus "admit" that he was ONLY a man.  However, if you study Christianity you will see that we believe that Jesus was both FULLY human and divine while he was here on earth.   He told him to worship only the Lord thy God.....because that was who is was, and still is and always will be.   He did not say "worship ME only, because we are to worship the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, which are the 3 separate entities comprising the ONE eternal God.  Monsoor, Jesus is both the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
     
    Peace,
    Agnes Dei
    ]]>     Sat, 09 Apr 2011 11:14:25 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=153785#153785     From where did the trinity teaching come? : To AgnesDeiMy friend, in each... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=153776#153776 Author: Mansoor_ali
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 09 April 2011 at 8:20am


     To AgnesDei

     My friend, in each of the verses you quoted from the Gospel of Matthew, Jesus is once again asserting that he and God are one.  It is seen especially in the 7th verse.  Where Satan is attempting to coerce Jesus into throwing himself down from the cliff, Jesus specifically says "Do not tempt the Lord thy God......meaning himself, as that is who Satan was tempting!

     
     Verse 4 says:

         Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.’[b]”

     Here Jesus clearly says that he is only a man.Jesus clearly admits his human nature in verse 4.How Jesus can be God after admitting his human nature in verse 4?Let us read further.Verse 8 and 9 say:

         8 Again, the devil took him to a very high mountain and showed him all the kingdoms of the world and their splendor. 9 “All this I will give you,” he said, “if you will bow down and worship me.”

     Now if Jesus was God then how Satan could say to Jesus for worship him(Satan)?It clearly shows that even Satan knew that Jesus is not God but Christ,Messiah of God.Let's read verse 10:

     10 Jesus said to him, “Away from me, Satan! For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only.’[e]”

     If Jesus was God then why he didnot tell satan in these words "Worship me,and serve me only"?

         Jesus didnot say it.It further proves that Jesus is not God and     "thou shall not tempt 'the Lord thy God." is not referring to Jesus but Father.

     

     

     

     
    ]]>     Sat, 09 Apr 2011 08:20:38 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=153776#153776     From where did the trinity teaching come? : Originally posted by Mansoor_aliTo... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=153734#153734 Author: AgnesDei
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 08 April 2011 at 8:38am

    Originally posted by Mansoor_ali


     To AgnesDei

     Jesus was the one whom Satan was tempting.....this is why Jesus said "thou shall not tempt 'the Lord thy God.'  He was making it clear that Satan knew he (Jesus) is also "the Lord thy God."

     Let me quote Matthew 4:1-7

         1 Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted[a]2 After fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry. 3 by the devil. The tempter came to him and said, “If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread.”

     4 Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.’[b]”

     5 Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. 6 “If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written:

       “‘He will command his angels concerning you,
       and they will lift you up in their hands,
       so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’[c]”

     7 Jesus answered him, “It is also written: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’[d]”

     

     If you read verse 7 in context then you realize that it refers to Father not Jesus Christ.Keep in mind verse 6 when you read verse 7.


     Yes, a portion of a shamrock is still a shamrock, my friend.  It is not a rose, nor a potato.  If a baby is born without its arms.....it is still a baby.


     There are various problems with your analogy.For example:

     1.) Each leaf is only a part of the clover, any one leaf cannot be said to be the whole clover. With the Trinity each of the persons is not just a separate part of God, each person is fully God.

     2.) If one of the leaves were removed it would no longer be a Shamrock.

     3.) Shamrock can be divided into three parts but God cannot.

     

     


     
    My friend, in each of the verses you quoted from the Gospel of Matthew, Jesus is once again asserting that he and God are one.  It is seen especially in the 7th verse.  Where Satan is attempting to coerce Jesus into throwing himself down from the cliff, Jesus specifically says "Do not tempt the Lord thy God......meaning himself, as that is who Satan was tempting!
     
    I will have to say regarding the shamrock......under statement number one, your second sentence is exactly how the Holy Trinity is explained. 
     
    Peace be with you always,
    AgnesDei
    ]]>     Fri, 08 Apr 2011 08:38:28 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=153734#153734     From where did the trinity teaching come? : To AgnesDeiJesus was the one whom... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=153730#153730 Author: Mansoor_ali
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 08 April 2011 at 5:48am


     To AgnesDei

     Jesus was the one whom Satan was tempting.....this is why Jesus said "thou shall not tempt 'the Lord thy God.'  He was making it clear that Satan knew he (Jesus) is also "the Lord thy God."

     Let me quote Matthew 4:1-7

         1 Then Jesus was led by the Spirit into the wilderness to be tempted[a]2 After fasting forty days and forty nights, he was hungry. 3 by the devil. The tempter came to him and said, “If you are the Son of God, tell these stones to become bread.”

     4 Jesus answered, “It is written: ‘Man shall not live on bread alone, but on every word that comes from the mouth of God.’[b]”

     5 Then the devil took him to the holy city and had him stand on the highest point of the temple. 6 “If you are the Son of God,” he said, “throw yourself down. For it is written:

       “‘He will command his angels concerning you,
       and they will lift you up in their hands,
       so that you will not strike your foot against a stone.’[c]”

     7 Jesus answered him, “It is also written: ‘Do not put the Lord your God to the test.’[d]”

     

     If you read verse 7 in context then you realize that it refers to Father not Jesus Christ.Keep in mind verse 6 when you read verse 7.


     Yes, a portion of a shamrock is still a shamrock, my friend.  It is not a rose, nor a potato.  If a baby is born without its arms.....it is still a baby.


     There are various problems with your analogy.For example:

     1.) Each leaf is only a part of the clover, any one leaf cannotbe said to be the whole clover. With the Trinity each of the persons is notjust a separate part of God, each person is fully God.

     2.) If one of the leaves wereremoved it would no longer be a Shamrock.

     3.) Shamrock can be divided into three parts but God cannot.

     

     


    ]]>     Fri, 08 Apr 2011 05:48:28 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=153730#153730     From where did the trinity teaching come? : Originally posted by Mansoor_aliTo... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=153673#153673 Author: AgnesDei
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 07 April 2011 at 5:35am

    Originally posted by Mansoor_ali


     To AgnesDei

     Here is my previous response to your article:

     
     My dear IssaEl,

     All of the statements you quote from Our Lord are correct.  He did say them.  It is quite easily understood if you read my scripture.  God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are ONE.  Three entities which comprise one God.  He was  speaking in the entity of God in those statements.  When Jesus cried out from the cross he was human.  Jesus was fully human in every way while he walked among us here one earth.    In the scripture where Jesus was being tempted by Satan, he rebuked him saying "thou shall not tempt the LORD THY GOD."

     
         "thou shall not tempt the LORD THY GOD." If you read in context it refers to Father not Jesus Christ.


     We just celebrated Saint Patrick's Day on the 17th.  St. Patrick of Ireland (I'm Irish too) used the shamrock to illustrate the Holy Trinity.  There are 3 leaves on the shamrock, yet it is one shamrock.  This is the same as the Trinity.  I know it is difficult for you to understand, and asking questions is good for us all.  It is a step toward learning and respecting the other person's faith.  It is a step toward peace. 
     
    On this Sunday may the God of us all bring you great peace and blessings!


         The shamrock analogy is incorrect because it implies that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (the three leaves) are "parts" of God (the shamrock), and not fully God themselves (a single leaf is not the shamrock).

     

     
     
    Jesus was the one whom Satan was tempting.....this is why Jesus said "thou shall not tempt 'the Lord thy God.'  He was making it clear that Satan knew he (Jesus) is also "the Lord thy God."
     
    Yes, a portion of a shamrock is still a shamrock, my friend.  It is not a rose, nor a potato.  If a baby is born without its arms.....it is still a baby.
     
    Peace,
    AgnesDei
    ]]>     Thu, 07 Apr 2011 05:35:48 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=153673#153673     From where did the trinity teaching come? : To AgnesDeiHere is my previous... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=153668#153668 Author: Mansoor_ali
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 07 April 2011 at 5:05am


     To AgnesDei

     Here is my previous response to your article:

     
     My dear IssaEl,

     All of the statements you quote from Our Lord are correct.  He did say them.  It is quite easily understood if you read my scripture.  God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are ONE.  Three entities which comprise one God.  He was  speaking in the entity of God in those statements.  When Jesus cried out from the cross he was human.  Jesus was fully human in every way while he walked among us here one earth.    In the scripture where Jesus was being tempted by Satan, he rebuked him saying "thou shall not tempt the LORD THY GOD."

     
         "thou shall not tempt the LORD THY GOD." If you read in context it refers to Father not Jesus Christ.


     We just celebrated Saint Patrick's Day on the 17th.  St. Patrick of Ireland (I'm Irish too) used the shamrock to illustrate the Holy Trinity.  There are 3 leaves on the shamrock, yet it is one shamrock.  This is the same as the Trinity.  I know it is difficult for you to understand, and asking questions is good for us all.  It is a step toward learning and respecting the other person's faith.  It is a step toward peace. 
     
    On this Sunday may the God of us all bring you great peace and blessings!


         The shamrock analogy is incorrect because it implies that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (the three leaves) are "parts" of God (the shamrock), and not fully God themselves (a single leaf is not the shamrock).

     

     
    ]]>     Thu, 07 Apr 2011 05:05:18 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=153668#153668     From where did the trinity teaching come? : Originally... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=153631#153631 Author: Douggg
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 06 April 2011 at 9:10pm

    Originally posted by honeto

    Originally posted by Douggg

    Originally posted by honeto

    Dear

    Hi Hasan, before there was anything created, what existed other than God?


     
    Dear Doug,
    let AgnesDei answer the question or if you have an answer to what is being asked write it. As far as your question it is irrelvent to this topic but if you would like to discuss it just make a new topic and put it up there.
    Peace,
    Hasan


    Hi Hasan, okay.   I picked a bad entry point to the main subject title (from where did the trinity teaching come?)
     
    Separate from your question to AgnesDei, the trinity teaching is found in the new testament itself .

    Jesus said he was with the Father before the creation of the world.    Jesus also said no-one has seen the Father except the Son (Jesus).   Only God existed before creation.    Which meant the person Jesus - who was he?

    Prior to creation, there was no empty space with God taking up part of that empty space... because that would mean God is limited.   There was nothing but God, no empty space.   Space for the creation had to be defined within the presence of God.

    God is spirit (the third person of the trinity), therefore, in order to provide a physical place for creation, a boundary space within God as Spirit had to be established.   God, as someone creation could interact with, entered that defined spaced as the Lord, coming forth from the Father, who creation can perceive as the Lord of heaven. The Lord is who Adam and Eve knew in the garden of Eden.    The Lord is who's back Moses saw on Mt. Sinai.

    The nt says Jesus is the Lord from heaven.  When the Lord "came forth" from the Father into the space where creation would take place, which Jesus said he did come forth from the Father, that made him the Son of God  before anything was created.    The nt says of Jesus, God "sent" his Son into the world, which means that he was God's Son before entering the world.   (which is something no muslim or anti-trinitarian can get around)

    The Lord, Son of God (the Father), entered this world by being born of Mary.   Therefore, Catholics do have a basis for Mary being the mother of God, in a limited sense as Jesus was also the Son of man, by being the son of Mary, a human.    But she herself was not the Mother of God, meaning mother of the Lord of Heaven on the eternal scale, since she herself was a created being.

    Catholicism btw says that the Son emanated from the Father.    The kjv nt says "comes forth" which means the same thing. 

    Doug L.



    Edited by Douggg - 07 April 2011 at 3:29am    ]]> Wed, 06 Apr 2011 21:10:44 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=153631#153631 From where did the trinity teaching come? : Originally posted by honeto Originally... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=153617#153617 Author: AgnesDei
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 06 April 2011 at 2:06pm

    Originally posted by honeto

    Originally posted by AgnesDei

    She is called the Mother of God because she is the mother of Jesus who is the Son, the 2nd person of the Holy Trinity.   GOD the father, Jesus the Son, and the Holy Spirit are 3 ENTITIES which combine to form ONE GOD.  She was chosen by God to be the mother of Jesus.  It is written in the Gospel of Luke.  Yes, you are correct, Hasan, I am a devout Roman Catholic.  I respect all people who are trying in their heart to follow God to the best of their ability. 

    In the end, when this life is over......that is when we'll see who was on the correct path and who was misguided.   Perhaps there are several paths which lead to the same destination, my friend.
     
    AgnesDei
     
     
    Hi Agnes,
    thanks for your input. I still feel I did not get reply to "why Mother of God" is not included while son and father is taught to be included in godhead?
     
    The Quran teaches us that when this life is over our chance to correct our path is over, you cannot reverse or go back to fix things when the reality of what you thought or did and of course that will depend on your belief, so it will be a primary question, what did you believe and why. That day you will not be able to put blame on anyone but yourself since the "buck stops with you" the individual.
    If by "paths" you mean beliefs, Islamic teachings say that only one way is accepted by God and that is: Submission to the Will of God, or Islam. If any submitt to anyone or anything else it will never be accepted and such person will recieve thier just recompense for doing so, those who deny God, God will deny them the bliss. By rejecting or by submitting to God and to no one else we do our part of chosing where we would like to end up. God is forgiving, who will forgive us our mistakes if we show that we have right intention and  we match up that intention with right pratice with the use of what God has given us. God has clearly stated that He will not forgive the sin of submission to anyone else beside Him or other than Him.
    So that's a very clear indication that there is only one way, and not many that lead to Him.
    Hasan
     
    We are taught the same thing, Hasan.  Once we die we cannot undo our sins.  We will pay for them.  The rejection of the Holy Spirit is the "unforgivable sin" in my belief. 
     
    Mary, the Mother of Jesus, hence, the Mother of God, is not a part of the triune Godhead because that is the way God wanted it to be.  She was chosen for a purpose......to bear His son, Jesus, the Christ.  Btw, we do not worship her or pray to her, as is commonly stated by non-Catholics.  We honor and adore her as the Mother of Jesus.  She was the purest of all women, and that was why God chose her to be his mother.  We ask her to pray for us and intercede for us to her Son.  Just the same as I might ask you to pray for me if I were in a terrible situation or if I was very ill.  Same thing.
     
    To sum up your original question, Mary was not chosen to share in the Trinity because God did not want her to.....He did not will it.  He chose her for other purposes.
     
    Be well, my friend,
    AgnesDei


    Edited by AgnesDei - 06 April 2011 at 2:10pm    ]]>     Wed, 06 Apr 2011 14:06:33 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=153617#153617     From where did the trinity teaching come? : Originally posted by AgnesDei She... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=153616#153616 Author: honeto
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 06 April 2011 at 1:52pm

    Originally posted by AgnesDei

    She is called the Mother of God because she is the mother of Jesus who is the Son, the 2nd person of the Holy Trinity.   GOD the father, Jesus the Son, and the Holy Spirit are 3 ENTITIES which combine to form ONE GOD.  She was chosen by God to be the mother of Jesus.  It is written in the Gospel of Luke.  Yes, you are correct, Hasan, I am a devout Roman Catholic.  I respect all people who are trying in their heart to follow God to the best of their ability. 

    In the end, when this life is over......that is when we'll see who was on the correct path and who was misguided.   Perhaps there are several paths which lead to the same destination, my friend.
     
    Patty
     
    Hi Patty,
    thanks for your input. I still feel I did not get reply to "why Mother of God" is not included while son and father is taught to be included in godhead, in your belief?
     
    The Quran teaches us that when this life is over our chance to correct our path is over, you cannot reverse or go back to fix things when the reality of what you thought or did and of course that will depend on your belief, so it will be a primary question, what did you believe and why? That day you will not be able to put blame on anyone but yourself since the "buck stops with you" the individual.
    If by "paths" you mean beliefs, Islamic teachings say that only one way is accepted by God and that is: Submission to the Will of God, or Islam. If any submitt to anyone or anything else it will never be accepted and such person will recieve thier just recompense for doing so, those who deny God, God will deny them the bliss. By rejecting or by submitting to God and to no one else we do our part of chosing where we would like to end up. God is forgiving, who will forgive us our mistakes if we show that we have right intention and  we match up that intention with right pratice with the use of what God has given us. God has clearly stated that He will not forgive the sin of submission to anyone else beside Him or other than Him.
    So that's a very clear indication that there is only one way, and not many that lead to Him. Those who deny Him the right, as the only One to be worshiped and served by associating others as gods with Him, or those who make and carve images or idols of those who were created, and those who kneel down and adore them are the one who break His commands. Whether they do it because they found their forefathers doing so and not really know why they do it, or if they do it after the knowledge has come to them, they will be held accountable for thier such acts.
    May God guide the ones who are misguided.
    Hasan


    Edited by honeto - 06 April 2011 at 2:03pm    ]]>     Wed, 06 Apr 2011 13:52:49 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=153616#153616     From where did the trinity teaching come? : Originally posted by Douggg Originally... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=153615#153615 Author: honeto
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 06 April 2011 at 1:26pm

    Originally posted by Douggg

    Originally posted by honeto

    Dear AgnesDei,
    If I am not mistaken you are a Cahtolic? and I have a question for you and that is regarding Mary (may God be well pleased with her). In Catholism she is called "Mother of God". (may God forgive such blasphemy they utter in ignorence)
    Why is she not included along "God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost" even though she is regarded and said to be "Mother of the Lord" or "Mother of God"?? God the Father is included in Godhead, why is one who is regarded as Mother of God is excluded??
    I would like to know your personal view and understanding on that issue besides you Church's.
    May God guide those who are misguided, Ameen.
    Hasan


    Hi Hasan, before there was anything created, what existed other than God?


     
    Dear Doug,
    let AgnesDei answer the question or if you have an answer to what is being asked write it. As far as your question it is irrelvent to this topic but if you would like to discuss it just make a new topic and put it up there.
    Peace,
    Hasan


    Edited by honeto - 06 April 2011 at 1:27pm    ]]>     Wed, 06 Apr 2011 13:26:19 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=153615#153615     From where did the trinity teaching come? : I offer this in reference to the... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=153602#153602 Author: AgnesDei
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 06 April 2011 at 7:45am

    I offer this in reference to the two previous posts by Hasan and the latest by IssaEL999, concerning the Johannine Comma as it pertains to the Gospel of John 5:7, which is evidence of the Holy Trinity:
     

    On the Comma Johanneum

    Daniel J. Castellano (2002)

    The authenticity of the Johannine Comma has been hotly disputed, on account of it being the most explicit Scriptural witness to the doctrine of the Holy Trinity. Advocates of the Comma generally feel that its excision from Scripture would somehow undermine doctrine or the reliability of Scripture, and it must be admitted that many opponents of the Comma have fueled such misgivings by using it as an evidence that the Scriptures were deliberately corrupted for theological purposes. I intend to show that the theological weight of the Comma is greatly overrated, and that the dispute is therefore purely an academic one. Nonetheless, I will review the basic arguments and evidences surrounding the Comma, and attempt to account for its retention and omission by various denominations.

    In most modern critical texts, which omit the Comma even as an alternate reading, 1 John 5:6-8 reads:

    6This is the one who came through water and blood, Jesus Christ, not by water alone, but by water and blood. The Spirit is the one that testifies, and the spirit is truth. 7So there are three that testify, 8the Spirit, the water, and the blood, and the three are one.

    Texts with the Comma would render verses 7 and 8: “There are three that testify in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Spirit, and these three are one, and three that testify on earth, the spirit, the water, and the blood, and these three are one.” This extended version was universally present in Tridentine Bibles, and remained in the Latin Vulgate until the Second Vatican Council.

    On purely intrinsic grounds, the Johannine Comma seems a bit out of place. The sixth verse identifies water and blood, followed by the Spirit, as witnesses, so it makes more sense to immediately mention the Spirit, the water and the blood as witnesses, rather than mention the Trinity. Also, verse 6 clearly refers to the Holy Spirit, or the Spirit of truth, in keeping with the usage of 1 John 4. It would be strange, therefore, for this Spirit to be considered an earthly witness as in the Comma’s version of verse 8, especially when He is also invoked as a heavenly witness. The short version has no mention of “earth,” since this distinction between earth and heaven is made necessary by the insertion of the Comma, whereas the excision of the Comma would not require the omission of the word “earth,” except to avoid the seeming contradiction of sense with verse 6. We further note that the Comma’s usage of “Holy Spirit” rather than simply “Spirit” is at odds with the rest of the Epistle. These observations do not positively exclude the Comma’s authenticity, but they definitely weaken the case that the Comma ought to be retained on account of its necessity to the text. One of the weightier aspects of this claim is the consideration that the Greek treiV, “three,” is in the masculine, when it ought to be conjugated in the neuter if it refers to three neuter objects: spirit, blood, and water. However, this irregular usage exists even in the Comma’s version, as well as elsewhere in the New Testament, so it is not a strong consideration. If we are going to quibble about Greek, we may note that in both versions the eighth verse uses the proposition eiV, which indicates that the three (earthly) witnesses are “into” or “towards” one, whereas the three heavenly witnesses are simply equated: they are one. Once again, this makes the Comma look like an awkward interpolation.

    Considering the Comma as an interpolated gloss, the interpolator no doubt affirmed an explicit Trinitarian doctrine, as evidenced by his omission of the proposition eiV. Yet if we were to regard it as part of the original text, we would surely be taking it out of context by using it as a proof of the Trinity, for the three heavenly witnesses are one primarily in the sense that the three earthly witnesses are one: they all testify to the same thing, that Jesus is the Son of the God, which is the main thrust of the passage. No one would use this passage to prove that the spirit, water, and blood are of one substance, so it would be dubious to hold the same of the heavenly witnesses. Since the Comma is not an effective proof of the consubstantial nature of the Trinity except to those who already believe the doctrine, no question of doctrine depends on the reading of this passage.

     
     
    ]]>     Wed, 06 Apr 2011 07:45:08 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=153602#153602     From where did the trinity teaching come? : Continue From Posted # 21 Verse7... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=153567#153567 Author: IssaEl999
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 05 April 2011 at 1:14pm

    Continue From  Posted # 21
    Verse7 For there are three that bear record in heaven , The father the word , and the Holy Ghost and these three are one .
    Commentary 5 ; 7 - 8 Should end with the word record The remander of Verse 7 And part of Verse 8 , Are Not In Any Ancient Greek Manuscript . Only In Later Latin Manuscripts .
    Now , They Say Verse 7 And Verse 8 Is Only Partially

    Genuine . There Are Even Some Greek Translation That Also Supports This Version , But That's Because They Were Translated From English Back Into Greek 1John 5 ; 7 Was Just Another Way To Confuse And Add Another False Sect And Belief . It Is One Of Those Things That Are Kept Quiet Because That Would Be The End Of Some People's Faith And That Is Something That People Who Promote Religion For A Profit Can't Afford To Do .
     
     
    ]]>     Tue, 05 Apr 2011 13:14:29 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=153567#153567     From where did the trinity teaching come? : Originally posted by AgnesDeiDeut.... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=153565#153565 Author: Mansoor_ali
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 05 April 2011 at 12:18pm

    Originally posted by AgnesDei

    Deut. vi. 4.--"Hear, O Israel The Lord our God is one Lord."--1 John v. 7 "There are three that bear record in heaven the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost and these three are one."
    I believe this is fairly easy to understand.  It says specifically that the Father, the Son (Word), and the Holy Ghost (Spirit) are ONE.   There are many things which are taken by faith.  In this life, we must have faith to fully believe any religion.  
    Hebrews 11:1 states "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."          Peace Be With You!     
     


     
     To AgnesDei

     1 John 5:7 “For there are three that bear witness in Heaven, the Father, and the word and the Holy Ghost, and these three are one”

     Check it out:The Controversy of I John 5:7 (Johannine Comma) By Mohd Elfie Nieshaem Juferi

     
     
    ]]>     Tue, 05 Apr 2011 12:18:39 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=153565#153565     From where did the trinity teaching come? : Originally posted by AgnesDeiMy... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=153562#153562 Author: Mansoor_ali
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 05 April 2011 at 11:21am

    Originally posted by AgnesDei

    My dear IssaEl,

    All of the statements you quote from Our Lord are correct.  He did say them.  It is quite easily understood if you read my scripture.  God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are ONE.  Three entities which comprise one God.  He was  speaking in the entity of God in those statements.  When Jesus cried out from the cross he was human.  Jesus was fully human in every way while he walked among us here one earth.  In the scripture where Jesus was being tempted by Satan, he rebuked him saying "thou shall not tempt the LORD THY GOD."


     To AgnesDei

     "thou shall not tempt the LORD THY GOD." If you read in context it refers to Father not Jesus Christ.

    Originally posted by AgnesDei

    We just celebrated Saint Patrick's Day on the 17th.  St. Patrick of Ireland (I'm Irish too) used the shamrock to illustrate the Holy Trinity.  There are 3 leaves on the shamrock, yet it is one shamrock.  This is the same as the Trinity.  I know it is difficult for you to understand, and asking questions is good for us all.  It is a step toward learning and respecting the other person's faith.  It is a step toward peace. 
     
    On this Sunday may the God of us all bring you great peace and blessings!


     The shamrock analogy is incorrect because it implies that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit (the three leaves) are "parts" of God (the shamrock), and not fully God themselves (a single leaf is not the shamrock).]]>     Tue, 05 Apr 2011 11:21:50 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=153562#153562     From where did the trinity teaching come? : Originally posted by honetoDear... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=153517#153517 Author: Douggg
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 04 April 2011 at 10:08pm

    Originally posted by honeto

    Dear AgnesDei,
    If I am not mistaken you are a Cahtolic? and I have a question for you and that is regarding Mary (may God be well pleased with her). In Catholism she is called "Mother of God". (may God forgive such blasphemy they utter in ignorence)
    Why is she not included along "God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost" even though she is regarded and said to be "Mother of the Lord" or "Mother of God"?? God the Father is included in Godhead, why is one who is regarded as Mother of God is excluded??
    I would like to know your personal view and understanding on that issue besides you Church's.
    May God guide those who are misguided, Ameen.
    Hasan


    Hi Hasan, before there was anything created, what existed other than God?


    ]]>     Mon, 04 Apr 2011 22:08:01 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=153517#153517     From where did the trinity teaching come? : Originally posted by AgnesDeiDeut.... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=153516#153516 Author: Douggg
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 04 April 2011 at 10:04pm

    Originally posted by AgnesDei

    Deut. vi. 4.--"Hear, O Israel The Lord our God is one Lord."--1 John v. 7 "There are three that bear record in heaven the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost and these three are one."
    I believe this is fairly easy to understand.  It says specifically that the Father, the Son (Word), and the Holy Ghost (Spirit) are ONE.   There are many things which are taken by faith.  In this life, we must have faith to fully believe any religion.  
    Hebrews 11:1 states "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."          Peace Be With You!     
     


    Hi AngesDei,  "It says specifically that the Father, the Son (Word), and the Holy Ghost (Spirit) are ONE."

    And.... 

    Revelation 19: 10And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.

     11And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

     12His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

     13And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

    ]]>     Mon, 04 Apr 2011 22:04:27 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=153516#153516     From where did the trinity teaching come? : Is Christiasnity Baded On Pagnism... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=153461#153461 Author: IssaEl999
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 03 April 2011 at 6:25am

    Is Christiasnity Baded On Pagnism ?

    Christians Will Say No . Howver , The Fact Is . Although Many Of Their Most ( Learnt Christian Scholars Have Wasted Much Time In Their Efforts To Explain The More Hazy Points Of Their Doctrine , Christianity Betrays It's Pagan  Origins By The Many Confusing And Contradictory Concepts , Which Christians ( Cling To , Often With No Overstanding Of Them ) . Some Of These Points Are ;
    ( 1 ) . There Are ( Three Gods In One ) The Father , The Son , And The Holy Ghost . These Three Make Up A Godhead That Is Crestor .
    ( 2 ) . The Roman Catholic Church Is '' ( Married To '' God '' ) .
    ( 3 ) . The Confession Of ( Sins To A Mortal ) .
    ( 4 ) . The Sabbath Or Day Of Rest Is ( On Sunday ) .
    ( 5 ) . The Son Of The Creator Was Crucified And Was Resurrected From A Physical Death To Save Lost Humanity .
    ( 6 ) . The Mother Of The Jesus Is Holy And Can Make Intercession For Them .
    ( 7 ) . The Holy Communion Or The Equivalent Of Partaking In The Body And Blood Of Jesus .
    ( 8 ) . The Return Of Jesus In The Last Days .
    ( 9 ) . The ( Birthday Of Jesus Is December 25 ) And Must Be ( Celebrated ) .
    ( 10 ) . The Practice Of ( Monasticism And Celebacy ) Among The Minister Of The Roman Church .     ]]>     Sun, 03 Apr 2011 06:25:24 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=153461#153461     From where did the trinity teaching come? : She is called the Mother of God... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=153437#153437 Author: AgnesDei
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 02 April 2011 at 6:40pm

    She is called the Mother of God because she is the mother of Jesus who is the Son, the 2nd person of the Holy Trinity.   GOD the father, Jesus the Son, and the Holy Spirit are 3 ENTITIES which combine to form ONE GOD.  She was chosen by God to be the mother of Jesus.  It is written in the Gospel of Luke.  Yes, you are correct, Hasan, I am a devout Roman Catholic.  I respect all people who are trying in their heart to follow God to the best of their ability. 

    In the end, when this life is over......that is when we'll see who was on the correct path and who was misguided.   Perhaps there are several paths which lead to the same destination, my friend.
     
    Patty
    ]]>     Sat, 02 Apr 2011 18:40:17 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=153437#153437     From where did the trinity teaching come? : Dear AgnesDei, If I am not mistaken... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=153435#153435 Author: honeto
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 02 April 2011 at 3:19pm

    Dear AgnesDei,
    If I am not mistaken you are a Cahtolic? and I have a question for you and that is regarding Mary (may God be well pleased with her). In Catholism she is called "Mother of God". (may God forgive such blasphemy they utter in ignorence)
    Why is she not included along "God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost" even though she is regarded and said to be "Mother of the Lord" or "Mother of God"?? God the Father is included in Godhead, why is one who is regarded as Mother of God is excluded??
    I would like to know your personal view and understanding on that issue besides you Church's.
    May God guide those who are misguided, Ameen.
    Hasan


    Edited by honeto - 02 April 2011 at 3:25pm    ]]>     Sat, 02 Apr 2011 15:19:13 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=153435#153435     From where did the trinity teaching come? : I respect your opinion, Hasan.... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=152834#152834 Author: AgnesDei
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 22 March 2011 at 6:03pm

    I respect your opinion, Hasan.  But I do not agree.  I don't know how many ways I can say that I believe in only ONE GOD, not three separate gods.  I used the example of St. Patrick and the Shamrock because it is a well known analogy.  You are correct when you say there is only one God, and I agree wholeheartedly, my friend.  We differ in our opinion after that because in my faith we also believe that God is comprised of 3 separate entities, which are known as the Holy Trinity.  One God, 3 entities. 
     
    Blessings and Peace to You,
    AgnesDei
    ]]>     Tue, 22 Mar 2011 18:03:31 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=152834#152834     From where did the trinity teaching come? : Originally posted by AgnesDei My... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=152824#152824 Author: honeto
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 22 March 2011 at 2:13pm

    Originally posted by AgnesDei

    My dear IssaEl,

    All of the statements you quote from Our Lord are correct.  He did say them.  It is quite easily understood if you read my scripture.  God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are ONE.  Three entities which comprise one God.  He was  speaking in the entity of God in those statements.  When Jesus cried out from the cross he was human.  Jesus was fully human in every way while he walked among us here one earth.  In the scripture where Jesus was being tempted by Satan, he rebuked him saying "thou shall not tempt the LORD THY GOD." 
     
    We just celebrated Saint Patrick's Day on the 17th.  St. Patrick of Ireland (I'm Irish too) used the shamrock to illustrate the Holy Trinity.  There are 3 leaves on the shamrock, yet it is one shamrock.  This is the same as the Trinity.  I know it is difficult for you to understand, and asking questions is good for us all.  It is a step toward learning and respecting the other person's faith.  It is a step toward peace. 
     
    On this Sunday may the God of us all bring you great peace and blessings!
    Dear Agnes,
    thanks for explaining your points. It seem that brother Issa has touched and responded with logic and truth, may The All Knowing reward him for his efforts of conveying the truth. 
    I see some things in your post that I  would like to touch. By the way there are many other types of leaves that have many sub leaves, and many that just one! So a Hindu can use one with multi segment leaf to describe there gods, and a Muslim likewise. Just to let you know we don't have any such thing. God is One, and that's it.
    Talking about Jesus (may God's peace be upon him) you said that he was a human when he cried out to God. I find it contradictory when you quoted and claim that these words have also come from Jesus: "thou shall not tempt the Lord your God" when answering the Devil.
    Those are opposing statements coming out of one person's mouth, or rather not properly transmittted by those who wrote them down? I remember in one place Jesus has clearly said, " I am returning to my God and your God". In all honesty and truth that's what only a humble servant of God can say.  We all know that God does not have a God or someone else to answer  or to return to.
    God in Islam is God, always and those who are His creations may be different in ranks depending but always stay as His creations. It is that clear as it sounds. There is a point upto where your logic is needed to be number one. At this point it is. Faith comes, once the logic has established a firm belief based on truth and nothing less.
    Peace,
     
    Hasan


    Edited by honeto - 22 March 2011 at 2:21pm    ]]>     Tue, 22 Mar 2011 14:13:31 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=152824#152824     From where did the trinity teaching come? : Continue From Posted: 16 ..... Original... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=152741#152741 Author: IssaEl999
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 21 March 2011 at 2:39am

    Continue From  Posted: 16 .....
    Original Verse And The Spirit Testifies That That Very Spirit Is The Truth
    Mistraslation This is he who came by water and blood , even Jesus Christ , not by water only , but water and blood , And theSpirit testifies that that very Spirt is the truth . And there are three to bear witness the Spirit and , the water and the blood ; and these three are one ,
    Now , When You Read 1 John 5 ; 7 In Your Standard Bible , You Will Read This ,

    1John 5 ; 7 For there are three that bear , Record in heaven , the father , the Word , and the holy ghost ; And these three are one . Do You See How The Verse Were Distorted ? They Are Both 1John 5 ; 7 , But They Don't Say The Same Thing ! That's Because In Your Standard Or Revised Edittion Bible , You Will Find The Original , Verse 5; 7 Has Been Actually Pushed Up To Merge With Verse 5; 6 . Now LQQk At 1John 5 ; 6 Below


    '' This is he that came by water and , Blood , even Jesus Christ ; not by Water only , but by water and Blood And It Is The Spirit That Beareth Witness Because The Spirit Is Truth '' ;...The Underlined Segment Is Really The Original 1John 5 ; 7 By Combining The Original Verse 5 ;6 And 5 ; 7 Together , This Left Verse 5 ; 7 Made It Conviently Free To

    Insert The False '' Trinity '' Verse . Just In Case You Think I Made This Up . Clarke's Commentary Also States That In The Very Early Bibles , This Verse Didn't Exist Clarke's Commentary Says This About 1John 5 ; 7 ;... '' But It Is Likely This Verse Is Not Genuine . It Is Wanting ( Missing ) In Every M .S . ( Manuscript ) Og This Epistle Written Before The Invention Of

    Printing . One Expecyed . The Condex Montfortii , In '' Trinity College , Dublin ; The Others Which Omit , This Verse Amount To One Hundred And Twelve . It Is Wanting ( Missing ) In Both The Syriac . All The Arabic , Ethiopic , The Coptic , Sahidic .Armenian , Slavonian , In A Word , In All The Ancient Versions . But The Vulgate And Even Of This Version Many Of The Most Ancient And Correct , MSS . Have It Not .. It Is

    Wanting ( Missing ) Also In All Ancient Greek Father , And In Most Even Of The Latin So What About Those Who Say A Portion Of The Quote Is True , Then There Are Those Scholars Who That Only Part Of This Quote Is Genuine Once Again , Let's Go Back To 1John 5 ; 7 In Your Standard Bible . , The Father , The Word , And The Holy Ghost , And These Three

    Are One > The Underlined Part Of This Quote Is The Part That Your So - Called Scholars Say Is Genuine . Some Bibles Are Equipped With Notes And Small Commentaries To Help You OverStand The Verses You Are Reading . If You Have Such A Bible . It Will Most Likely Say The Same Thing . For Instance , On Page 1776 In The Ryrie Study Bible It Says ;

    Verse7 For there are three that bear record in heaven , The father the word , and the Holy Ghost and these three are one .
    To Be Continue In Next Post <>>>>.
    ]]>     Mon, 21 Mar 2011 02:39:35 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=152741#152741     From where did the trinity teaching come? : Originally posted by AgnesDei My... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=152739#152739 Author: IssaEl999
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 21 March 2011 at 2:33am

    Originally posted by AgnesDei

    My dear IssaEl,

    All of the statements you quote from Our Lord are correct.  He did say them.  It is quite easily understood if you read my scripture.  God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are ONE.  Three entities which comprise one God.  He was  speaking in the entity of God in those statements.  When Jesus cried out from the cross he was human.  Jesus was fully human in every way while he walked among us here one earth.  In the scripture where Jesus was being tempted by Satan, he rebuked him saying "thou shall not tempt the LORD THY GOD." 
     
    We just celebrated Saint Patrick's Day on the 17th.  St. Patrick of Ireland (I'm Irish too) used the shamrock to illustrate the Holy Trinity.  There are 3 leaves on the shamrock, yet it is one shamrock.  This is the same as the Trinity.  I know it is difficult for you to understand, and asking questions is good for us all.  It is a step toward learning and respecting the other person's faith.  It is a step toward peace. 
     
    On this Sunday may the God of us all bring you great peace and blessings!
     
     
    AgnesDei ~ Peace And Blessings To You And Your Family Also . Overstand Something I Mean No Disrespect  To Your Or Your Belif's , We Just Disagree NoBigThing . In No Way Am I'm Here To Convert Anyone Here To My Way Of Seeing Things . Peace
    ]]>     Mon, 21 Mar 2011 02:33:46 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=152739#152739     From where did the trinity teaching come? : My dear IssaEl, All of the statements... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=152691#152691 Author: AgnesDei
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 20 March 2011 at 5:00am

    My dear IssaEl,

    All of the statements you quote from Our Lord are correct.  He did say them.  It is quite easily understood if you read my scripture.  God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit are ONE.  Three entities which comprise one God.  He was  speaking in the entity of God in those statements.  When Jesus cried out from the cross he was human.  Jesus was fully human in every way while he walked among us here one earth.  In the scripture where Jesus was being tempted by Satan, he rebuked him saying "thou shall not tempt the LORD THY GOD." 
     
    We just celebrated Saint Patrick's Day on the 17th.  St. Patrick of Ireland (I'm Irish too) used the shamrock to illustrate the Holy Trinity.  There are 3 leaves on the shamrock, yet it is one shamrock.  This is the same as the Trinity.  I know it is difficult for you to understand, and asking questions is good for us all.  It is a step toward learning and respecting the other person's faith.  It is a step toward peace. 
     
    On this Sunday may the God of us all bring you great peace and blessings!
    ]]>     Sun, 20 Mar 2011 05:00:00 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=152691#152691     From where did the trinity teaching come? : Originally posted by AgnesDeiDeut.... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=152586#152586 Author: IssaEl999
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 18 March 2011 at 8:36am

    Originally posted by AgnesDei

    Deut. vi. 4.--"Hear, O Israel The Lord our God is one Lord."--1 John v. 7 "There are three that bear record in heaven the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost and these three are one."
    I believe this is fairly easy to understand.  It says specifically that the Father, the Son (Word), and the Holy Ghost (Spirit) are ONE.   There are many things which are taken by faith.  In this life, we must have faith to fully believe any religion.  
    Hebrews 11:1 states "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."          Peace Be With You!     
     
     
     
    John 14 ; 2 >> In My Father House Are Many Mansions .>>> Jesus Said In My Father's House , He [ Didsn't Say In My House ] Would It Have Made Sense To Say In My House [ If He Was God ? ]

    Luke 2; 49 >> That I Must Be About My Father's Business '>> If Jesus Was God Why Did He Say I Must Be Of My Fathers Business , He Indicated . [ The Distinction Between Him And His Father .
    Mathew 4; 1 >>Then was Jesus led up of the spirit into the wilderness to be tempted of the devil << If Jesus was God how could the devil Possibly be able to tempt him without him knowing >> And What Could The Devil Possibly Offer The Creator Of Everything .
    Truth Is Truth And If It Was About His Father's Will Then Why Did Jesus SAy In Matthew 26; 38 >> If Be Possible Let This Cup Pass By Me ; Nevertheless Not As I Will , But As Thou Wilt ''
    Let Me Point Out A Few Points From Your Bible Stating That Jesus Couldn't Possibly Be God ..
    Mark 15 ; 34 >> Jesus cried out with a loud voice My God , My God Why have thou Forsaken Me . <<< If Jesus was God who could he be praying to if he is the only God , and to cry is a human Weakness
    ]]>     Fri, 18 Mar 2011 08:36:06 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=152586#152586     From where did the trinity teaching come? : Deut. vi. 4.--&#034;Hear, O Israel... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=152484#152484 Author: AgnesDei
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 17 March 2011 at 4:37am

    Deut. vi. 4.--"Hear, O Israel The Lord our God is one Lord."--1 John v. 7 "There are three that bear record in heaven the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost and these three are one."
    I believe this is fairly easy to understand.  It says specifically that the Father, the Son (Word), and the Holy Ghost (Spirit) are ONE.   There are many things which are taken by faith.  In this life, we must have faith to fully believe any religion.  
    Hebrews 11:1 states "Now faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen."          Peace Be With You!     
     
    ]]>     Thu, 17 Mar 2011 04:37:24 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=152484#152484     From where did the trinity teaching come? : ( Food For Though ) There... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=152441#152441 Author: IssaEl999
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 16 March 2011 at 11:43am

    ( Food For Though )
     
    There Is No Way To Have A Trinity Without First Separating Each Of The Three Things Indivdually To Declare Then A Trinity . By That I Mean , You Have To First Establish That There Is A Father One Thing And A Son Another Thing And A Holy Ghost The Thrid Thing , In order For These Things To Totally Mix And Become One Thing . They Would Have To Start Off Equal In Rank , Quantity . Space , Density , Authority , Or Existence . In Admitting That The Son Came From The Father , Time Make The Difference , The Father Would Have To Had Been First , Before The Son . This Would Make Them Unequal And Incapable Of Becoming A Balanced Triad . No It Did Not Mean That When It Said God The Father ,,, God The Son , And God The Holy Ghost = One God .. Because Three Cannot Go Into One .
    ]]>     Wed, 16 Mar 2011 11:43:56 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=152441#152441     From where did the trinity teaching come? : Originally posted by robin Where... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=152439#152439 Author: IssaEl999
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 16 March 2011 at 11:38am

    Originally posted by robin

    Where the trinity idea came from.

    a) "Was the idea of the Trinity - that One God exists in three Persons and One Substance - influenced by pre-Christian traditions? It is well known that the New testament offers no such doctrine, and there is no evidence the Jesus of Nazareth regarded himself as a member of the Trinity. The doctrine was developed during the first four Christian centuries, culminating in the Council of Constantinople in AD 381. . . . In Egypt the concept of trinity was of ancient origin, but it flourished especially in the second century AD and afterwards, when the mystery cult of Isis reached its acme of popularity in a Graeco-Egyptian framework which found adherents in many countries of the Roman empire. This religious amalgam exercised a potent influence on early Christian thinkers, particularly in Alexandria"

    b) "There is no clear evidence that the apostles of Jesus entertained that doctrine. Nor does he give his claim to be "Christ" or his participation in the godhead any such prominence as on feels would have been done had he considered it a matter of prime significance."

    c) "Professor Studer shows how early apocalyptic vision developed into sophisticated, philosophically orientated theology concerning the mystery of God, the world and humankind."

    d) "Christian thought, working with data of the NEW T ESTAMENT AND USING GREEK PHILOSOPHY AS ITS INSTRUMENT, CONSTRUCTED THE DOCTRINE OF TRINITY IN UNITY."

    e) "The Platonism and Stoic of the pagan philosophers of the Hellenistic Age was used by the early church Fathers of the Church as a welcome aid to the formulation of Christian doctrine ... "

    f) "Those wishing to see Jesus as god rather than man could rely on the Gospel according to St John. For this, despite its Hellenism, had concentrated in mystical and allegorical fashion on the divine nature of Jesus, seeing him not as a man but as a personified idea pp.206, 207)."

    g) "Now if, when it emerged, the Nicene dogma was inevitable, it was nonetheless new. . . . Equally, it marks a transition from things related to us as they are in themselves, from the relational concepts of God as supreme agent, Creator, Omnipotent Lord of all, to an ontological concept of the divine substance itself."

    h) "It may be that the Platonic contribution in this field [Plaestinian-bred Christian religion] has already been absorbed, and digested by the Christian Fathers, but Plato is perenninial."

    i) "Plato's Influence - "Although Plato did not hold a dominant place in the philosophy of the Hellenistic Age, he came to the that position in the early centres of the Christian era. Patristic theology took shape largely in the framework of platonic philosophy. Not only Christian thought but also some Jewish (notably Philo) and later Islamic philosophy owed much to him. Plato's emphasis on nonmaterial reality, a deathless soul distinct from the body, the idea of a cosmic religion (beauty of the celestial order), and a just society has been enormously influential."

    j) "The Apologists were in the direct line of decent of Christian tradition. With them began a process of accommodation, inevitable in the progress of the Church, between Christianity and the dominant philosophy, a process carried on with greater skill and knowledge by Alexandrian doctors of the third century and issuing finally in the fourth century in the comprehensive Faith of Nicaea and the Christianization of Hellenism rather that the "Hellenization of Christianity.""


    The above quotes from the following publications:-

    a) From the dust cover of the book 'Triads and Trinity' by John Gwyn Griffiths BA, DD (Wales), MA (Liverpool), D.Phil., D.Litt. (Oxon,) is Professor Emeritus of Classics and Egyptology at the University of Wales, Swansea
    b) H.G. Wells' book 'The Outline of History' p.52, 6l
    c) The back cover of Basil Studer's book 'Trinity and Incarnation'
    d)'Christian Doctrine' by J.S. Whale p.41
    e)'Greek and Roman Philosophy after Aristotle' by Jason L. Saunders Ed p.12
    f)'The Climax of Rome' by Michael Grant p.21l
    g)'The Way to Nicea' by Bernard Lonergan p.136
    h)'PLATO and the Christians' by Adam Fox Archdeacon of Westminster (1757) p.27
    i) 'Background if Early Christianity' 2nd Ed. by Everett Ferguson p.315
    j) 'The Greek Fathers' by James M. Campbell associate professor of Greek & Latin in the Catholic University America pp.23-24 and all being eminent scholars and or orthodox theologians

     
     Roman Catholic Inserted The Trinity ( Part-One )
    God The Father , Then You Have Humanity As His Children , And The Holy Ghost Are The AngelicBeings , You Are Useing 1John 5 ; 7 As If It Is Authentic When In Fact It Has Been Proven To Be A Distorted Scripture Nor Does It Exist In Any Of The Original Manuscripts I Don't Try To Discredit AnyThing

    Or AnyOne I Just State The Facts , And I Am Only Interested In The Facts . To Answer Your Question . When The Bible Was In Its Original Language Of Aramaic ( Hebrew ) Arabic And Galilean Arabic , The Verse 1John 5 ; 7 , That Has Become The Foundation For The 3 Beings In 1 Concept Called

    The Trinity DID NOT EXIST , It Also DID NOT EXIST IN GREEK , The Distortion With The Onset Of The Roman Catholic Church The Roman Catholic Inserted The Trinity Verse When They Translated The Bible From Greek To Latin I Purposely

    Said '' Inserted '' And Not '' Translated '' Because , As I've Already Said The Original Greek Did Not Have This Verse . HowEver , You Will Find Some Greek Translation Have Either The Whole Trinity Verse Or Only A Portion Of It , 1John 5; 7 Is Surround In Controversy Because There Are Two Versions

    Of This Verse Your Bibilical Scholars Say 1John 5; 7 . That Is Used In Most Bibles Today . Is Either Not The Origian Verse . Or They Say That Its Only Partially Genuine . There Have Been Many Arguments Between Scholars On This Subject When In Fact There Shouldn't Be Any Arguments Because The Original Aramaic And The Greek Manuscripts Don't Have This

    1John 5 ; 7 , In It . The Problem Is They Really Don't Want To Admit That The Trinity Really Has No Basis In The Teaching Of Yashua , Making The Trinitarian Churches And Any Other Sect That Believe In This 3 In 1 Concept Obsolete , FurtherMore , In The Ancient Eastern Manusripts By George M Lamsa Which Is A Bible That Is Translated From The Original Aramaic And Syriac Language On Page 1222 , In 1John 5 ; 7 , You Will See That The Orginal Verse Says This ;...

    More In Next Post <>>>
    ]]>     Wed, 16 Mar 2011 11:38:45 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=152439#152439     From where did the trinity teaching come? : Originally posted by Mansoor... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=132519#132519 Author: Moses
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 17 September 2009 at 7:17am

    Originally posted by Mansoor_ali

     

    وَإِذۡ قُلۡنَا لِلۡمَلَـٰٓٮِٕكَةِ ٱسۡجُدُواْ which means: And when We said unto the angels: Prostrate yourselves before Adam,

     

    Here is a response by a sheikh on this question:   

     

    Question :

      

     Why does the Quran use the term "we" in its ayats?

        Many non-believers believe that this may be in reference to Jesus?


    Answer :

      

     Praise be to Allaah.

     

      It is a feature of literary style in Arabic that a person may refer to himself by the pronoun nahnu (we) for respect or glorification. He may also use the word ana (I), indicating one person, or the third person huwa (he). All three styles are used in the Qur'an, where Allaah addresses the Arabs in their own tongue. (Fataawa al-Lajnah al-Daa'imah, 4/143).

     

    "Allaah, may He be glorified and exalted, sometimes refers to Himself in the singular, by name or by use of a pronoun, and sometimes by use of the plural, as in the phrase (interpretation of the meaning): ?Verily, We have given you a manifest victory" [al-Fath 48:1], and other similar phrases. But Allaah never refers to Himself by use of the dual, because the plural refers to the respect that He deserves, and may refer to His names and attributes, whereas the dual refers to a specific number (and nothing else), and He is far above that." (Al-?Aqeedah al-Tadmuriyyah by Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah, p. 75).

     

     These words, innaa ("Verily We") and nahnu ("We"), and other forms of the plural, may be used by one person speaking on behalf of a group, or they may be used by one person for purposes of respect or glorification, as is done by some monarchs when they issue statements or decrees in which they say "We have decided." etc. [This is known in English as "The Royal We" - Translator]. In such cases, only one person is speaking but the plural is used for respect. The One Who is more deserving of respect than any other is Allaah, may He be glorified and exalted, so when He says in the Qur'an innaa ("Verily We") and nahnu ("We"), it is for respect and glorification, not to indicate plurality of numbers.

     

    If an aayah of this type is causing confusion, it is essential to refer to the clear, unambiguous aayaat for clarification, and if a Christian, for example, insists on taking ayaat such as "Verily, We: it is We Who have sent down the Dhikr (i.e., the Qur'an)" [al-Hijr 15:9 - interpretation of the meaning] as proof of divine plurality, we may refute this claim by quoting such clear and unambiguous aayaat as (interpretation of the meanings): "And your god is One God, there is none who has the right to be worshipped but He, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful" [al-Baqarah 2:163] and "Say: He is Allaah, the One" [al-Ikhlaas 112:1] - and other aayaat which can only be interpreted in one way. Thus confusion will be dispelled for the one who is seeking the truth. Every time Allaah uses the plural to refer to Himself, it is based on the respect and honour that He deserves, and on the great number of His names and attributes, and on the great number of His troops and angels." (Reference: Al-?Aqeedah al-Tadmuriyyah by Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah, p. 109). And Allaah knows best.

       

    Islam Q&A

       

    Sheikh Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid (www.islam-qa.com)

      

    They have answered to people for centuries by this, because they won`t believe in trinity any way. But for someone who wants think about this: changing the dialogue methods for purposes of respect or glorification is not appropriate for God. He glorify himself always by explain his activities and good deeds, and then do not need to change the egos for this purpose. Actually in the time of revelation of Quran this was not usual and you can`t find textures with this method of self glorification in egos before Quran. On the other hand the purpose of using Arabic language was accuracy and delicacy of this language to explaining everything clearly. For this, usually religious people can`t believe this in their hearts, but in arguing with others, will be different! When Quran talks about the right hand of God, they say this is not real; God never can have a hand! And when Quran talks about believers in everything which has revealed before Muhammad, they say he was not mean it really!! When Quran say everybody who has been created, do not invite them into your heart (Daavah) or do not call them, they say this is not about our leaders, and definitely is not about our messenger! As if they are not created!!!

      يَوۡمَ ٱلۡقِيَـٰمَةِ وَٱلسَّمَـٰوَٲتُ مَطۡوِيَّـٰتُۢ بِيَمِينِهِۦ‌ۚ (39-67) ….on the Day of Resurrection, and the heavens are rolled in His right hand…

    وَٱلَّذِينَ يُؤۡمِنُونَ بِمَآ أُنزِلَ إِلَيۡكَ وَمَآ أُنزِلَ مِن قَبۡلِكَ(1-4)… And who believe in that which is revealed unto thee (Muhammad) and that which was revealed before thee…

    وَٱلَّذِينَ يَدۡعُونَ مِن دُونِ ٱللَّهِ لَا يَخۡلُقُونَ شَيۡـًٔ۬ا وَهُمۡ يُخۡلَقُونَ(16-20)… Those unto whom they cry below Allah created naught, but are themselves created. (20)

     Do you know what! They don`t believe that words of God has been changed, because they don`t know, when, who and in which of those words, only they are repeating what their leaders say! What a terrible deal, Quran says about such a people:

    أَفَمَن كَانَ عَلَىٰ بَيِّنَةٍ۬ مِّن رَّبِّهِۦ وَيَتۡلُوهُ شَاهِدٌ۬ مِّنۡهُ وَمِن قَبۡلِهِۦ كِتَـٰبُ مُوسَىٰٓ إِمَامً۬ا وَرَحۡمَةً‌ۚ أُوْلَـٰٓٮِٕكَ يُؤۡمِنُونَ بِهِۦ‌ۚ وَمَن يَكۡفُرۡ بِهِۦ مِنَ ٱلۡأَحۡزَابِ فَٱلنَّارُ مَوۡعِدُهُ ۥ‌ۚ فَلَا تَكُ فِى مِرۡيَةٍ۬ مِّنۡهُ‌ۚ إِنَّهُ ٱلۡحَقُّ مِن رَّبِّكَ وَلَـٰكِنَّ أَڪۡثَرَ ٱلنَّاسِ لَا يُؤۡمِنُونَ (١٧)

    Is he (to be counted equal with them) who relied on a clear proof from his Lord, and a witness from Him recited it, and before it was the Book of Moses, an example and a mercy? Such believe therein, and whoso disbelieved therein of the clans, the Fire is his appointed place. So be not thou in doubt concerning it. Lo! It is the Truth from thy Lord; but most of mankind believes not. (17)

     

    If you ask them, they will say: yes we believe!!! Not because they read that book and admitted all of the words of God, but because they afraid of anger of God! And when you tell them what do you believe that you say yes!!!! They will say nothing, everything God says in Quran! But it’s not truth, because Quran say believe in the Gospel of Jesus and book of Moses, but most of mankind believes not!

     

    After all these they can`t explain us the verses of Quran more than say “from our spirit ( مِن رُّوحِنَا) means “from our angel”!!!! As if God wish to twist us in his words, not reveale something!!!

     
     You may know the meaning of:”Iaqfor” means covering the truth, covering something that you can cover that! Covering the truth of a book that you know about that in Quran and you have access enough to read that book, don`t you afraid of this warning of Quran?!!!

    You may know the meaning of:”Iaqfor” means covering the truth, covering something that you can cover that! Covering the truth of a book that you know about that in Quran and you have access enough to read that book, don`t you afraid of this warning of Quran?!!!

    You see that Quran does not talking about the books of your leaders, Quran does not ask you to read their books their stories and their hadith es. only one thing ask you , believe in Quran and everything revealed before that, and you will not do this any way!! Are you cheating on yourself when say to yourself “I believe, but can`t read them!!" you would say I don`t believe because I can `t find that books!!!!

    But here, in Sydney??!!!!! You can`t find that?!! Or u don`t want to change your decision in following your leaders!!

     

     For this reason, they are going to the fire, in this world, fire of sins, fire of conscience, fire of fighting with each other, fire of anger and lust, fire of ignorance, and this will continue for them, up to the other world, when they will go into the fire of hell!



    Edited by Moses - 17 September 2009 at 7:39am    ]]>     Thu, 17 Sep 2009 07:17:55 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=132519#132519     From where did the trinity teaching come? : Originally posted by Mansoor_ali None... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=132507#132507 Author: Moses
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 16 September 2009 at 10:01pm

    Originally posted by Mansoor_ali

     

      None of God's prophets teach his people about the Trinity.

     

     O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger from Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His Messengers. Say not "Three": desist: It will be better for you: For Allah is One God: Glory be to Him: (Far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs. [Qur'an 4:171] 

     

     The above verse of the Quran 4:171, For Allah is One God,is enough to refute any form of trinity.

     

     Noble verse 5:73 says:

    "They do blaspheme who say: God is a third of three: for there is no god except One God........."

     No Mary, no Jesus, no Holy Spirit, no Hindu Trinity  

     

     

     Quran does not tell us about several Gods! Neither Bible!! This is only u that think about God as several, because Christian people does not say such a thing and you persist that they are talking about several Gods, then this is in your mind not Christians or other people!

    “None of prophets does not teach this” because this is not for teaching, this believes in God as he says himself. Somebody believes in God and ask himself about what is he, and somebody put all of their feet in a show that “I can say what is the God” because as if he is dead or too weak to talk about himself!

    In religions, the leaders tell us what is God. They tell us that messengers say this and say that and that they have found these things in some books that they trusted on the authors! And you may believe them also. Then you can find what God is!

    But there are somebody who wants think and use their knowledge as well, these people can be good if they don`t think too much and more than their leaders!!

    God is only one. From the first to the last he was alone. But why they can`t think about him? Because our knowledge is not enough for knowing him, He is above on all of things that we can think about them. Then, for knowing him, neither I nor my leaders can understand about him. There is only one way, he should introduce himself to us. If somebody agrees, may ask him to do this, but before that, should clean his mind from any thought about God. And this is exactly the thing that religious people can`t do. For this reason God is something just like a painting for religious people. They can`t find the answer to their questions about God, and their leaders don`t encourage them to look through the Holy book for this purpose. Because as they look, people are not worthy enough to talk about the words of God! Then ask them to study the leader`s books instead of cleaning their thoughts and ask God himself to introduce.

    As you see I am not talking only about Muslims, Catholics....or other religions. This is the problem of religion, because, religion is something that human made that not God.

    Everybody who can trust on Almighty God, without any doubt, will find him written in his words. But nobody can trust on him if he trusts on human.

    For believe that human changed the words of God, you must first trust on human who can do this! If you can believe that human is capable to change the words of God, you will lose yourself in the hands of other people that can explain this subject to you.

    But if you come back from this way , you can find the words are simple enough to understand and you don`t need anybody explain that for you! This is the miracle of words of God.  

     

    God is alone, but he can choose the way to work himself. He can use of his spirit which is not completely different, but is one action face of God himself. This is trinity. One God with 3 action face which we can find in his book after thinking in the presence of him and in his words in Holy Book, as he said himself.

     

     

     

     

     

    ]]>     Wed, 16 Sep 2009 22:01:47 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=132507#132507     From where did the trinity teaching come? : Originally posted by Moses Hi, God... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=132499#132499 Author: Mansoor_ali
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 16 September 2009 at 6:33pm

    Originally posted by Moses

     

     Hi,

    God revealed the trinity to all of his prophets, but in the right time!

     None of God's prophets teach his people about the Trinity.
     

     

    Originally posted by Moses

    You can find trinity in Quran as well.

     Yes.
     
     O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger from Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His Messengers. Say not "Three": desist: It will be better for you: For Allah is One God: Glory be to Him: (Far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs. [Qur'an 4:171] 
     
     The above verse of the Quran 4:171, For Allah is One God,is enough to refute any form of trinity.
     
     Noble verse 5:73 says:

    "They do blaspheme who say: God is a third of three: for there is no god except One God........."

     No Mary, no Jesus, no Holy Spirit, no Hindu Trinity(Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva), and no lies!  All forms of trinity or any plurality of GOD Almighty are false and lies!
     
     
    Originally posted by Moses

    If you are really wanting to know about that , you suppose to believe in everything which God revealed before Muhammad.
     
    As God says in the second chapter of Quran, this book will lead you if you are a person that God says , means about your pray, your deed, and about believe in everything had been revealed for prophets before Muhammad.
     
     Yes muslims believe in Torah,Injil,Zabur etc as Quran says:
     
     Say (O Muslims), 'We believe in God, and what has been revealed to thee, and what was revealed to Abraham, and Ishmael, and Isaac, and Jacob, and the tribes, and what was given to Moses, and Jesus, and the prophets from their Lord,- we will make no distinction between any of them,- and we are unto Him resigned. 3:84
     
     That is why we muslims believe in only the parts of the Bible that agree with the noble Quran.That parts that contradict the noble Quran are not the truth.
     
    Originally posted by Moses

    Knowing trinity in Quran is based on knowing trinity in Bible first.
     
     There is no Trinity in the Bible. 
     
    Originally posted by Moses

    Afterward, you may come back to verses of Quran and find consciences (ego) which God attributed to himself. These are signs, not very public! But completely right and these are signs for everybody who wants know the truth.In verses which God is describing himself, you see (mostly) egos are solitaire. And when God is talking about his acts and activities (mostly), is using plural egos.Example, وَإِذۡ قُلۡنَا لِلۡمَلَـٰٓٮِٕكَةِ ٱسۡجُدُواْ which means: And when We said unto the angels: Prostrate yourselves before Adam,
     

    Here is a response by a sheikh on this question:    

     

    Question :

       

     Why does the Quran use the term "we" in its ayats?

        Many non-believers believe that this may be in reference to Jesus?


    Answer :

       

     Praise be to Allaah.

      

      It is a feature of literary style in Arabic that a person may refer to himself by the pronoun nahnu (we) for respect or glorification. He may also use the word ana (I), indicating one person, or the third person huwa (he). All three styles are used in the Qur'an, where Allaah addresses the Arabs in their own tongue. (Fataawa al-Lajnah al-Daa'imah, 4/143).

     
    "Allaah, may He be glorified and exalted, sometimes refers to Himself in the singular, by name or by use of a pronoun, and sometimes by use of the plural, as in the phrase (interpretation of the meaning): ?Verily, We have given you a manifest victory" [al-Fath 48:1], and other similar phrases. But Allaah never refers to Himself by use of the dual, because the plural refers to the respect that He deserves, and may refer to His names and attributes, whereas the dual refers to a specific number (and nothing else), and He is far above that." (Al-?Aqeedah al-Tadmuriyyah by Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah, p. 75).
     
     These words, innaa ("Verily We") and nahnu ("We"), and other forms of the plural, may be used by one person speaking on behalf of a group, or they may be used by one person for purposes of respect or glorification, as is done by some monarchs when they issue statements or decrees in which they say "We have decided." etc. [This is known in English as "The Royal We" - Translator]. In such cases, only one person is speaking but the plural is used for respect. The One Who is more deserving of respect than any other is Allaah, may He be glorified and exalted, so when He says in the Qur'an innaa ("Verily We") and nahnu ("We"), it is for respect and glorification, not to indicate plurality of numbers.
     

    If an aayah of this type is causing confusion, it is essential to refer to the clear, unambiguous aayaat for clarification, and if a Christian, for example, insists on taking ayaat such as "Verily, We: it is We Who have sent down the Dhikr (i.e., the Qur'an)" [al-Hijr 15:9 - interpretation of the meaning] as proof of divine plurality, we may refute this claim by quoting such clear and unambiguous aayaat as (interpretation of the meanings): "And your god is One God, there is none who has the right to be worshipped but He, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful" [al-Baqarah 2:163] and "Say: He is Allaah, the One" [al-Ikhlaas 112:1] - and other aayaat which can only be interpreted in one way. Thus confusion will be dispelled for the one who is seeking the truth. Every time Allaah uses the plural to refer to Himself, it is based on the respect and honour that He deserves, and on the great number of His names and attributes, and on the great number of His troops and angels." (Reference: Al-?Aqeedah al-Tadmuriyyah by Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah, p. 109). And Allaah knows best.

       

    Islam Q&A

       

    Sheikh Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid (www.islam-qa.com)

       

     

    Originally posted by Moses

    And in some of verses:

    :……… إِذۡ قَالَ ٱللَّهُ يَـٰعِيسَىٰٓ إِنِّى مُتَوَفِّيكَ وَرَافِعُكَ إِلَىَّmeans: (And remember) when Allah said: O Jesus! Lo! I am gathering thee (making dead) and causing thee to ascend unto Me…….

     (١٢١) يَـٰبَنِىٓ إِسۡرَٲٓءِيلَ ٱذۡكُرُواْ نِعۡمَتِىَ ٱلَّتِىٓ أَنۡعَمۡتُ عَلَيۡكُمۡ وَأَنِّى فَضَّلۡتُكُمۡ عَلَى ٱلۡعَـٰلَمِينَ

    (121) O Children of Israel! Remember My favour wherewith I favoured you and how I preferred you to (all) creatures.

    Totally reading the verses of Quran show us that Allah seems to be something and his spirit can go somewhere and act as something. !

     

    For example about creation of Jesus you can see: فَأَرۡسَلۡنَآ إِلَيۡهَا رُوحَنَاin 19-16

    Or in 4-171:

    إِنَّمَا ٱلۡمَسِيحُ عِيسَى ٱبۡنُ مَرۡيَمَ رَسُولُ ٱللَّهِ وَڪَلِمَتُهُ ۥۤ أَلۡقَٮٰهَآ إِلَىٰ مَرۡيَمَ وَرُوحٌ۬ مِنۡهُ‌ۖ

    وَالَّتِي أَحْصَنَتْ فَرْجَهَا فَنَفَخْنَا فِيهَا مِن رُّوحِنَا وَجَعَلْنَاهَا وَابْنَهَا آيَةً لِّلْعَالَمِينَ (21:91)

    These are examples that show us Holy Spirit is coming down in world some times. And at the same time Allah is sending her, means, Allah do something by his Holy Spirit.

     Here is a response by a sheikh :
     
     

    Question

    Dear scholars, As-salamu `alaykum. Christians speak about the spirit as does the Qur’an. In Surat Al-Qadr it says angels and the Spirit came down with the permission of Allah. Are they the same? Please comment on this.

     
     
    The Spirit mentioned in the Qur’an refers to different persons. The Holy Spirit mentioned in the Qur’an refers to the Angel Jibreel sent by Allah to assist His chosen servants in their divinely ordained missions.

    The Christian concept of the Spirit is quite different from Islam. Many of them consider the Holy Spirit as Divine and a member of the Trinity. Some of them worship the Holy Sprit as God. This is not acceptable in Islam.

    In his response to your question, Dr. Muzammil H. Siddiqi, former president of the Islamic Society of North America, states:

    The Qur’an uses the word ruh about twenty-one times. It primarily means “spirit” which is a creation of Allah and its true nature is known to Him alone. Allah says, [They ask you concerning the spirit. Say, it is from the command of my Lord. And from the knowledge you are given only a little.) (Al-Israa’ 17: 85) Since the angels are spiritual beings, they are also called ruh. The angel Jibreel (Gabriel) - who is the Angel of revelation and used to bring revelation to Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon them both) is called in the Qur’an, Ar-Ruh (The Spirit, see Surat Maryam 19: 17), Ruh Al-Qudus (The Spirit of Sacredness or the Sacred Spirit, see Surat Al-Baqarah 2: 87; 253, Surat Al-Ma’idah 5: 110; Surat An-Nahl 16: 102) and Ar-Ruh Al-Amin (the Trustworthy Spirit, see Surat Ash-Shu`araa’ 26: 193).

    Jesus’ birth took place in a miraculous way. His mother Maryam (may peace be upon her) was a virgin. Allah sent the Angel Gabriel to her who gave her the good news that she will bear a child by the Command of Allah in a miraculous way. Then she conceived Jesus. This conception took place after the announcement of the Spirit - Gabriel –(peace and blessings be upon him). It is for this reason that Jesus is also called in the Qur’an Ruhun minhu (a Spirit from Him, see Surat An-Nisaa’ 4: 171). The Qur’an also came to the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) through the Angel Gabriel (peace and blessings be upon him). Thus the Qur’an is also called Ruhan min amrina (Ash-Shura 42: 52)

    In Surat Al-Qadr Almighty Allah mentioned the angels in general and then specifically spoke about Angel Gabriel in order to emphasize his position and importance. Since the night of Qadr is the night of the revelation of the Qur’an, Allah especially honors this night by sending His angels, and especially the Angel Gabriel, Ar-Ruh.

    The Christian concept of the Spirit is quite different from Islam. Many of them believe in the Holy Spirit, but they consider the Holy Spirit as Divine and a member of the Trinity. Some of them worship the Holy Sprit as God. This is not acceptable in Islam. We respect the angels and especially the Angel Gabriel (peace and blessings be upon all of them) but we do not consider them divine or sons or daughters of God, as Christians and ancient Arabs (before accepting Islam) used to believe. According to Islam, the angels are Allah’s servants and they follow His Command. (Al-Anbiyaa’ 21: 26-29)     
    Originally posted by Moses

    But when this issue come to the son, talking about the subject in Quran is not the will of God. May be because of avoid more confusion of human mind. (The subject is interesting for me as well and if someone interested may be shared more).If you admit this one we can continue about Jesus talks about sin to Holy Spirit.
     
    ]]>     Wed, 16 Sep 2009 18:33:28 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=132499#132499     From where did the trinity teaching come? : &#034;You can find trinity... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=132497#132497 Author: Shasta'sAunt
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 16 September 2009 at 5:27pm

    "You can find trinity in Quran as well."

    You are absolutely correct:
     
    They do blaspheme who say: Allah is one of three in a Trinity: for there is no god except One Allah. If they desist not from their word (of blasphemy), verily a grievous penalty will befall the blasphemers among them. (5:73)
     

    O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: Nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger of Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His messengers. Say not "Trinity" : desist: it will be better for you: for Allah is one Allah: Glory be to Him: (far exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs. (4:171)

    "Knowing trinity in Quran is based on knowing trinity in Bible first."
     
    You have this backwards. Muslims can only accept Biblical scriptures if they are verified by The Quran, not the other way around.
     
    "These are signs, not very public! But completely right and these are signs for everybody who wants know the truth."
     
    God isn't keeping secrets or hiding things from us in The Quran, it is very clear in it's meaning:
     
    6:114 (Y. Ali) Say: "Shall I seek for judge other than Allah. - when He it is Who hath sent unto you the Book, explained in detail." They know full well, to whom We have given the Book, that it hath been sent down from thy Lord in truth. Never be then of those who doubt.
     
    16:89 (Y. Ali) One day We shall raise from all Peoples a witness against them, from amongst themselves: and We shall bring thee as a witness against these (thy people): and We have sent down to thee the Book explaining all things, a Guide, a Mercy, and Glad Tidings to Muslims.
     
    17:89 (Y. Ali) And We have explained to man, in this Qur'an, every kind of similitude: yet the greater part of men refuse (to receive it) except with ingratitude
     
    18:54 (Y. Ali) We have explained in detail in this Qur'an, for the benefit of mankind, every kind of similitude: but man is, in most things, contentious.
     
    ]]>     Wed, 16 Sep 2009 17:27:41 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=132497#132497     From where did the trinity teaching come? : Originally posted by Moses Hi, God... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=132496#132496 Author: Mansoor_ali
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 16 September 2009 at 5:23pm

    Originally posted by Moses

     

     Hi,

    God revealed the trinity to all of his prophets, but in the right time!

     None of God's prophets teach his people about the Trinity.
     
     
    Originally posted by Moses

    You can find trinity in Quran as well.
     
     Yes.
     
     O People of the Book! Commit no excesses in your religion: nor say of Allah aught but the truth. Christ Jesus the son of Mary was (no more than) a messenger from Allah, and His Word, which He bestowed on Mary, and a spirit proceeding from Him: so believe in Allah and His Messengers. Say not "Three": desist: It will be better for you: For Allah is One God: Glory be to Him: (Far Exalted is He) above having a son. To Him belong all things in the heavens and on earth. And enough is Allah as a Disposer of affairs. [Qur'an 4:171] 
     
     The above verse of the Quran 4:171, For Allah is One God,is enough to refute any form of trinity.
     
     Noble verse 5:73 says:

    "They do blaspheme who say: God is a third of three: for there is no god except One God........."

     No Mary, no Jesus, no Holy Spirit, no Hindu Trinity  
     
     
     
     

    If you are really wanting to know about that , you suppose to believe in everything which God revealed before Muhammad.

    As God says in the second chapter of Quran, this book will lead you if you are a person that God says , means about your pray, your deed, and about believe in everything had been revealed for prophets before Muhammad.

    Knowing trinity in Quran is based on knowing trinity in Bible first. Afterward, you may come back to verses of Quran and find consciences (ego) which God attributed to himself. These are signs, not very public! But completely right and these are signs for everybody who wants know the truth.

    In verses which God is describing himself, you see (mostly) egos are solitaire. And when God is talking about his acts and activities (mostly), is using plural egos.

    Example, وَإِذۡ قُلۡنَا لِلۡمَلَـٰٓٮِٕكَةِ ٱسۡجُدُواْ which means: And when We said unto the angels: Prostrate yourselves before Adam,

    And in some of verses:

    :……… إِذۡ قَالَ ٱللَّهُ يَـٰعِيسَىٰٓ إِنِّى مُتَوَفِّيكَ وَرَافِعُكَ إِلَىَّmeans: (And remember) when Allah said: O Jesus! Lo! I am gathering thee (making dead) and causing thee to ascend unto Me…….

     (١٢١) يَـٰبَنِىٓ إِسۡرَٲٓءِيلَ ٱذۡكُرُواْ نِعۡمَتِىَ ٱلَّتِىٓ أَنۡعَمۡتُ عَلَيۡكُمۡ وَأَنِّى فَضَّلۡتُكُمۡ عَلَى ٱلۡعَـٰلَمِينَ

    (121) O Children of Israel! Remember My favour wherewith I favoured you and how I preferred you to (all) creatures.

    Totally reading the verses of Quran show us that Allah seems to be something and his spirit can go somewhere and act as something. !

     

    For example about creation of Jesus you can see: فَأَرۡسَلۡنَآ إِلَيۡهَا رُوحَنَاin 19-16

    Or in 4-171:

    إِنَّمَا ٱلۡمَسِيحُ عِيسَى ٱبۡنُ مَرۡيَمَ رَسُولُ ٱللَّهِ وَڪَلِمَتُهُ ۥۤ أَلۡقَٮٰهَآ إِلَىٰ مَرۡيَمَ وَرُوحٌ۬ مِنۡهُ‌ۖ

    وَالَّتِي أَحْصَنَتْ فَرْجَهَا فَنَفَخْنَا فِيهَا مِن رُّوحِنَا وَجَعَلْنَاهَا وَابْنَهَا آيَةً لِّلْعَالَمِينَ (21:91)

    These are examples that show us Holy Spirit is coming down in world some times. And at the same time Allah is sending her, means, Allah do something by his Holy Spirit.

    But when this issue come to the son, talking about the subject in Quran is not the will of God. May be because of avoid more confusion of human mind. (The subject is interesting for me as well and if someone interested may be shared more)

     

    If you admit this one we can continue about Jesus talks about sin to Holy Spirit.

     

     

    [/QUOTE] ]]>     Wed, 16 Sep 2009 17:23:24 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=132496#132496     From where did the trinity teaching come? : Originally posted by Nazarenesalaam... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=132452#132452 Author: Moses
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 16 September 2009 at 8:05am

    Originally posted by Nazarene

    salaam

     

    Question: if the trinity is real it would have exsited from the begining correct. so why didn't god reveal this to abraham. or any other of the prophets in the bible from the past? there's no mention of a trinity from the warners of old.

     

    Question: if there is a trinity why didn't jesus include this in his teachings? he was part of it right?

     

    Question: if there is a trinity why did jesus refer to those involved in the trinity as seperate? jesus states :

     

    IF YOU SIN AGAINST THE FATHER YOU CAN BE FORGIVEN.

    IF YOU SIN AGAINST THE SON YOU CAN BE FORGIVEN.

    IF SIN AGAINST THE HOLY SPIRIT YOU WILL NEVER BE FORGIVEN, IN THIS WORLD OR THE NEXT.

     

    SEEMS JESUS THOUGHT THEY WERE SEPERATE BEINGS.

    IF NOT HOW CAN ONE SIN AGAINST ONE AND BE FORGIVEN AND NOT THE OTHER.

    leland

     

     Hi,

    God revealed the trinity to all of his prophets, but in the right time!

    You can find trinity in Quran as well.

    If you are really wanting to know about that , you suppose to believe in everything which God revealed before Muhammad.

    As God says in the second chapter of Quran, this book will lead you if you are a person that God says , means about your pray, your deed, and about believe in everything had been revealed for prophets before Muhammad.

    Knowing trinity in Quran is based on knowing trinity in Bible first. Afterward, you may come back to verses of Quran and find consciences (ego) which God attributed to himself. These are signs, not very public! But completely right and these are signs for everybody who wants know the truth.

    In verses which God is describing himself, you see (mostly) egos are solitaire. And when God is talking about his acts and activities (mostly), is using plural egos.

    Example, وَإِذۡ قُلۡنَا لِلۡمَلَـٰٓٮِٕكَةِ ٱسۡجُدُواْ which means: And when We said unto the angels: Prostrate yourselves before Adam,

    And in some of verses:

    :……… إِذۡ قَالَ ٱللَّهُ يَـٰعِيسَىٰٓ إِنِّى مُتَوَفِّيكَ وَرَافِعُكَ إِلَىَّmeans: (And remember) when Allah said: O Jesus! Lo! I am gathering thee (making dead) and causing thee to ascend unto Me…….

     (١٢١) يَـٰبَنِىٓ إِسۡرَٲٓءِيلَ ٱذۡكُرُواْ نِعۡمَتِىَ ٱلَّتِىٓ أَنۡعَمۡتُ عَلَيۡكُمۡ وَأَنِّى فَضَّلۡتُكُمۡ عَلَى ٱلۡعَـٰلَمِينَ

    (121) O Children of Israel! Remember My favour wherewith I favoured you and how I preferred you to (all) creatures.

    Totally reading the verses of Quran show us that Allah seems to be something and his spirit can go somewhere and act as something. !

     

    For example about creation of Jesus you can see: فَأَرۡسَلۡنَآ إِلَيۡهَا رُوحَنَاin 19-16

    Or in 4-171:

    إِنَّمَا ٱلۡمَسِيحُ عِيسَى ٱبۡنُ مَرۡيَمَ رَسُولُ ٱللَّهِ وَڪَلِمَتُهُ ۥۤ أَلۡقَٮٰهَآ إِلَىٰ مَرۡيَمَ وَرُوحٌ۬ مِنۡهُ‌ۖ

    وَالَّتِي أَحْصَنَتْ فَرْجَهَا فَنَفَخْنَا فِيهَا مِن رُّوحِنَا وَجَعَلْنَاهَا وَابْنَهَا آيَةً لِّلْعَالَمِينَ (21:91)

    These are examples that show us Holy Spirit is coming down in world some times. And at the same time Allah is sending her, means, Allah do something by his Holy Spirit.

    But when this issue come to the son, talking about the subject in Quran is not the will of God. May be because of avoid more confusion of human mind. (The subject is interesting for me as well and if someone interested may be shared more)

     

    If you admit this one we can continue about Jesus talks about sin to Holy Spirit.

     

     

    ]]>     Wed, 16 Sep 2009 08:05:46 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=132452#132452     From where did the trinity teaching come? : Topic: From where did the trinity... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=132300#132300 Author: Shibboleth
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 12 September 2009 at 6:11pm

    Topic: From where did the trinity teaching come?

    Not from the early Christians in Jesus' day that's for sure. Ask Emperor Constantine.  The word 'trinity' by the way is not even in the Bible.


    ]]>     Sat, 12 Sep 2009 18:11:19 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=132300#132300     From where did the trinity teaching come? : Originally posted by Nazarene Originally... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=129524#129524 Author: martha
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 19 July 2009 at 8:18pm

    Originally posted by Nazarene

    Originally posted by martha

    http://newsroom.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/eng/background-information/the-godhead

    This might be of interest
     
    God the Father :Mormons believe He has a human-like body but is immortal and perfected.
     
    this difies comandment # 2 any image or likeness.
    Genesis 1 :26 ¶ And God said, Let aus bmake cman in our dimage, after our elikeness: and let them have fdominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
      27 So God created man in his own aimage, in the image of God created he him; male and bfemale created he them
     
    The Ten Commandments came from God, given to Moses. It is refering to man-made images, much in the same way the Prophet Muhammed (pbuH) warned the people the same. As muslims we believe that Allah is immortal and perfected.
    Jesus Christ :Every prayer in the home and every sermon in a chapel closes in the name of Jesus Christ.
     
    the created can not be above the creator. the lesser and cannot be above the greater. this is in the bible
    Hebrews 7:7
    And without doubt the lesser person is blessed by the greater.
     Yes this is correct. DOn't get confused with this but closing the prayer in the name of Jesus is because Jesus is considered the mediator between humans and GOd.
    (John 14:13
     And whatsoever ye shall aask in my bname, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.)
     
    This is no way means that Jesus is above the Creator.
    Holy Ghost :the Holy Ghost is a personage of spirit,
     
    a creation of god thus subject to him.
     
    Yes this is correct. The bible teaches the same as the qu'ran. THe Holy Spirit works for God, so is not GOd. I was previously giving an example that some Christians believe in the Trinity..3 in 1. YOu will see that the Mormons do not believe this.
     

    "Say, the Holy Spirit has brought the Revelation from thy Lord in Truth, in order to strengthen those who believe, and as a Guide and Glad Tidings to Muslims.  (The Noble Quran, 16:102)"

    leland
    ]]>     Sun, 19 Jul 2009 20:18:33 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=129524#129524     From where did the trinity teaching come? : Originally posted by martha ... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=129509#129509 Author: Nazarene
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 19 July 2009 at 2:49pm

    Originally posted by martha

    http://newsroom.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/eng/background-information/the-godhead

    This might be of interest
     
    God the Father :Mormons believe He has a human-like body but is immortal and perfected.
     
    this difies comandment # 2 any image or likeness.
     
    Jesus Christ :Every prayer in the home and every sermon in a chapel closes in the name of Jesus Christ.
     
    the created can not be above the creator. the lesser and cannot be above the greater. this is in the bible
    Hebrews 7:7
    And without doubt the lesser person is blessed by the greater.
     
    Holy Ghost :the Holy Ghost is a personage of spirit,
     
    a creation of god thus subject to him.
     
    leland
    ]]>     Sun, 19 Jul 2009 14:49:26 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=129509#129509     From where did the trinity teaching come? : http://newsroom.lds.org/ldsnew... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=129502#129502 Author: martha
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 19 July 2009 at 11:36am

    http://newsroom.lds.org/ldsnewsroom/eng/background-information/the-godhead

    This might be of interest
    ]]>     Sun, 19 Jul 2009 11:36:03 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=129502#129502     From where did the trinity teaching come? : Originally posted by Nazarenesalaam... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=129501#129501 Author: martha
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 19 July 2009 at 11:29am

    Originally posted by Nazarene

    salaam
      
     
    Question: if there is a trinity why did jesus refer to those involved in the trinity as seperate? jesus states :
     
    IF YOU SIN AGAINST THE FATHER YOU CAN BE FORGIVEN.
    IF YOU SIN AGAINST THE SON YOU CAN BE FORGIVEN.
    IF SIN AGAINST THE HOLY SPIRIT YOU WILL NEVER BE FORGIVEN, IN THIS WORLD OR THE NEXT.
     
    SEEMS JESUS THOUGHT THEY WERE SEPERATE BEINGS.
    IF NOT HOW CAN ONE SIN AGAINST ONE AND BE FORGIVEN AND NOT THE OTHER.
    leland
     
    The trinity actually means 3 in 1. By that it means there is GOd the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Ghost(Spirit) So they are separate, and of course Jesus knew that. THe trinity however all work together for the same cause.  Hence why it is called 3 in 1. Some Christians actually get confused over this too.
    ]]>     Sun, 19 Jul 2009 11:29:54 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=129501#129501     From where did the trinity teaching come? : salaam Question: if the trinity... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=129495#129495 Author: Nazarene
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 19 July 2009 at 10:29am

    salaam
     
    Question: if the trinity is real it would have exsited from the begining correct. so why didn't god reveal this to abraham. or any other of the prophets in the bible from the past? there's no mention of a trinity from the warners of old.
     
    Question: if there is a trinity why didn't jesus include this in his teachings? he was part of it right?
     
    Question: if there is a trinity why did jesus refer to those involved in the trinity as seperate? jesus states :
     
    IF YOU SIN AGAINST THE FATHER YOU CAN BE FORGIVEN.
    IF YOU SIN AGAINST THE SON YOU CAN BE FORGIVEN.
    IF SIN AGAINST THE HOLY SPIRIT YOU WILL NEVER BE FORGIVEN, IN THIS WORLD OR THE NEXT.
     
    SEEMS JESUS THOUGHT THEY WERE SEPERATE BEINGS.
    IF NOT HOW CAN ONE SIN AGAINST ONE AND BE FORGIVEN AND NOT THE OTHER.
    leland
    ]]>     Sun, 19 Jul 2009 10:29:55 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=129495#129495     From where did the trinity teaching come? : Originally posted by PattyaMainerRobin,... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=125470#125470 Author: robin
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 23 April 2009 at 8:25am

    Originally posted by PattyaMainer

    Robin, you know full well that Protestant and Catholic Christians believe only in ONE GOD.  You  are guilty of attempting to spread falsehoods against all our churches.  We believe in the three separate entities who join together to form the triune Godhead.......just one God!  You KNOW this, but you refuse to accept it.  You need much more study of Christian religions.   You either do not understand what Christians believe, or you are deliberately twisting our beliefs.  It's amazing that you have all the answers when your "church" has not even been in existance for 200 years.
     
    Tell the truth, Robin.
     
     
    1God the Father - first person
    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
     
    2
    God the Son is the second person of the Trinity
     
    3
    Yfaith: Home > Faith > God > God the Holy Spirit [Third person]
     
     
    God the Son = 1 God
    God the Holy Spirit = 1 God
    God the Father = 1 God
     
    TOTAL = Three Gods - Three pesons
     
    Herein is The Truth.
     
     
    There is no such thing as a "Godhead":-
     
    At Acts 17:29, Paul, when in Athens, showed that it is illogical for humans to imagine that "the Divine Being [to thei´on, form of thei´os] is like gold or silver or stone." Many translators here use terms such as "the Godhead," "the Deity," or "the divinity" (KJ, AS, Dy, ED, JB, RS), while E. J. Goodspeed’s translation says "the divine nature." According to The International Standard Bible Encyclopedia, the expression to thei´on "is derived from the adjective theíos, meaning ‘pertaining to God,’ ‘divine.’" (Edited by G. Bromiley, 1979, Vol. 1, p. 913) Liddell and Scott’s Greek-English Lexicon gives as the meaning "the Divinity." (Revised by H. Jones, Oxford, 1968, pp. 787, 788) So the phrase to thei´on can be understood to refer to a person or to a quality. Obviously, then, the context must guide the translator in his choice of words. Here at Acts 17:29, the context clearly shows that the person of God is being described, and so the expression is appropriately rendered "Divine Being" in the New World Translation.—Compare NIV.
     
     
    At Romans 1:20 the apostle refers to the undeniable visible evidence of God’s "invisible qualities," particularly his "eternal power and Godship [Thei·o´tes]." Other translations read "Godhead" or "deity" (KJ, NE, RS, JB), conveying to many the idea of personality, the state of being a person. However, according to Liddell and Scott’s Greek-English Lexicon, the Greek word thei·o´tes means "divine nature, divinity." (P. 788) So there is a basis for rendering thei·o´tes as referring to the quality of being a god, not the person of God, and this is supported by the context. The apostle is discussing things that are discernible in the physical creation. For example, while the creation does not reveal the name of God, it does give evidence of his "eternal power"—needed to create and sustain the universe. The physical creation also displays his "Godship," the fact that the Creator truly is God and is worthy of our worship.

    Then, at Colossians 2:9 the apostle Paul says that in Christ "all the fullness of the divine quality [form of the·o´tes] dwells bodily." Here, again, some translations read "Godhead" or "deity," which Trinitarians interpret to mean that God personally dwells in Christ. (KJ, NE, RS, NAB) However, Liddell and Scott’s Greek-English Lexicon defines the·o´tes in basically the same way it does thei·o´tes, as meaning "divinity, divine nature." (P. 792) The Syriac Peshitta and the Latin Vulgate render this word as "divinity." Thus, here too, there is a solid basis for rendering thei·o´tes as referring to quality, not personality.

    Christians do not teach or believe in a trinity!


    Edited by robin - 24 April 2009 at 1:17am    ]]>     Thu, 23 Apr 2009 08:25:37 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=125470#125470     From where did the trinity teaching come? : Originally posted by honeto Originally... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=125116#125116 Author: PattyaMainer
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 15 April 2009 at 4:18am

    Originally posted by honeto

    Originally posted by PattyaMainer

    Robin, you post such rude, corrupt information I don't understand (well actually I do understand) why no devout Christian, Jew, or Muslim would give your fanatical and derogatory posts a second glance.  I make it a practice to avoid "junk" such as this like the plague.  I wish you peace, guidance and wisdom, as well as understanding.  The JW have done a great job brainwashing you.

    Patty

     
    Patty,
    peace, knowledge wisdom and guidance does not come easy, I agree. Nor any can ever reach a stage where they do not need them anymore. But it is through this forum that we learn not just about other's beliefs, but about our own belief as well.
    Hasan
     
    I agree with you on the need for learning Hasan, IN A RESPECTFUL MANNER.  But there are two people here who are very rude and disrespectful in their feeble efforts to maintain any sort of mature dialogue.  This is not good for any website, and especially for this one.
     
    Peace,
    Patty
    ]]> Wed, 15 Apr 2009 04:18:03 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=125116#125116 From where did the trinity teaching come? : Robin, you know full well that... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=125115#125115 Author: PattyaMainer
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 15 April 2009 at 4:15am

    Robin, you know full well that Protestant and Catholic Christians believe only in ONE GOD.  You  are guilty of attempting to spread falsehoods against all our churches.  We believe in the three separate entities who join together to form the triune Godhead.......just one God!  You KNOW this, but you refuse to accept it.  You need much more study of Christian religions.   You either do not understand what Christians believe, or you are deliberately twisting our beliefs.  It's amazing that you have all the answers when your "church" has not even been in existance for 200 years.
     
    Tell the truth, Robin.
    ]]>     Wed, 15 Apr 2009 04:15:32 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=125115#125115     From where did the trinity teaching come? : Originally posted by PattyaMainer Robin,... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=125082#125082 Author: honeto
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 14 April 2009 at 11:48am

    Originally posted by PattyaMainer

    Robin, you post such rude, corrupt information I don't understand (well actually I do understand) why no devout Christian, Jew, or Muslim would give your fanatical and derogatory posts a second glance.  I make it a practice to avoid "junk" such as this like the plague.  I wish you peace, guidance and wisdom, as well as understanding.  The JW have done a great job brainwashing you.

    Patty

     
    Patty,
    peace, knowledge wisdom and guidance does not come easy, I agree. Nor any can ever reach a stage where they do not need them anymore. But it is through this forum that we learn not just about other's beliefs, but about our own belief as well.
    Hasan
    ]]>     Tue, 14 Apr 2009 11:48:28 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=125082#125082     From where did the trinity teaching come? : Originally posted by PattyaMainer Robin,... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=125080#125080 Author: robin
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 14 April 2009 at 11:02am

    Originally posted by PattyaMainer

    Robin, you post such rude, corrupt information I don't understand (well actually I do understand) why no devout Christian, Jew, or Muslim would give your fanatical and derogatory posts a second glance.  I make it a practice to avoid "junk" such as this like the plague.  I wish you peace, guidance and wisdom, as well as understanding.  The JW have done a great job brainwashing you.

    Patty

    I just believe what The Bible says on this matter. I see you do not!

     

    GOD IS "ONE," NOT THREE!

     



    Edited by robin - 14 April 2009 at 11:04am    ]]>     Tue, 14 Apr 2009 11:02:58 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=125080#125080     From where did the trinity teaching come? : Robin, you post such rude, corrupt... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=124950#124950 Author: PattyaMainer
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 12 April 2009 at 5:35am

    Robin, you post such rude, corrupt information I don't understand (well actually I do understand) why no devout Christian, Jew, or Muslim would give your fanatical and derogatory posts a second glance.  I make it a practice to avoid "junk" such as this like the plague.  I wish you peace, guidance and wisdom, as well as understanding.  The JW have done a great job brainwashing you.

    Patty



    Edited by PattyaMainer - 12 April 2009 at 5:37am    ]]>     Sun, 12 Apr 2009 05:35:44 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=124950#124950     From where did the trinity teaching come? : Originally posted by Mansoor_ali Answering... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=124886#124886 Author: robin
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 11 April 2009 at 7:37am

    Originally posted by Mansoor_ali


     

    Answering John 1:1

     The biggest trinitarian-lie in mistranslation!

    Exposing the false trinity - A youtube channel by brother Brahim.  

    The Trinity Audio Debate!

    (click here)

    Listen to brother Sami Zaatari destroy Sam Shamoun's arguments!

    WARNING!!  Sam Shamoun kept throwing foul insults!  Viewer's discretion is advised.

    Another Trinity Audio Debate!

    (click here)

    Listen to brother Sami Zaatari debate a Christian preacher!

    Debate review with Christian preacher: preacher goes mad!   Warning the preacher gave many foul insults!

    The Shamoun-Winn Trinity Debate!

    See how the two trinitarian-stooges proved that trinity is no more than a big lie!

    The early Christians rejected Trinity.   Early Christians had major problems and disagreements about who truly Jesus was and whether or not he got crucified or not.

    Jesus had no Divine Will according to the New Testament. How could he be our Creator?

    Answering Trinity- A full proof from the Bible that Jesus is not GOD.

    The Hidden Truth: Trinity.

     
     
    So it is well established that Jesus etc. worshiped only ONE God; who was this God according to the Prophet Jesus?
     

    GOD’S NAME MADE KNOWN!

    ENGLISH STANDARD VERSION

    [YHWH] = added for understanding.

     

    God the father Said:

    Exo. 9:13, 16  “Then the LORD (Heb. YHWH)  said to Moses … 16  But for this purpose I have raised you up, to show you my power, so that my name may be proclaimed in all the earth.”

     

    Rom 9:17  “For the Scripture says to Pharaoh, "For this very purpose I have raised you up, that I might show my power in you, and that my name [YHWH] might be proclaimed in all the earth."

     

    Ezk. 36:23  “And I will vindicate the holiness of my great name, which has been profaned among the nations, and which you have profaned among them. And the nations will know that I am the LORD (Heb. YHWH), declares the Lord GOD (YHWH), when through you I vindicate my holiness before their eyes.”

     

    Ezk. 39:7  "And my holy name I will make known in the midst of my people Israel, and I will not let my holy name be profaned anymore.  And the nations shall know that I am the LORD (Heb. YHWH), the Holy One in Israel.”

     

    Mal 1:11  “For from the rising of the sun to its setting my name will be great among the nations, and in every place incense will be offered to my name, and a pure offering. For my name will be great among the nations, says the LORD (Heb. YHWH) of hosts.”

     

    Mal 1:14  “Cursed be the cheat who has a male in his flock, and vows it, and yet sacrifices to the Lord (Heb. YHWH) what is blemished. For I am a great King, says the LORD (Heb. YHWH) of hosts, and my name will be feared among the nations.”

     

    Jesus said:-

    John 17:6  "I have manifested* your name [YHWH]  to the people whom you gave me out of the world. …”  

    *“manifest  —adj. clear or obvious to the eye or mind. —v. 1 show (a quality or feeling) by one's acts etc. 2 show plainly to the eye or mind. 3 be evidence of; prove. 4 refl. (of a thing) reveal itself. 5 (of a ghost) appear. —n. cargo or passenger list.  manifestation n. manifestly adv. [Latin manifestus]”-Oxford Dictionary

     

    John 17:11-12  “… Holy Father, keep them in your name [YHWH], which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are one.   12  While I was with them, I kept them in your name [YHWH], which you have given me. I have guarded them, and not one of them has been lost except the son of destruction, that the Scripture might be fulfilled.”

     

    John 17:26  “I made known* to them your name [YHWH], and I will continue to make it known, that the love with which you have loved me may be in them, and I in them."

     

    John 12:28  Father, glorify your name [YHWH]."

    The Father then said.  “Then a voice came from heaven: "I have glorified it [YHWH], and I will glorify it [YHWH] again."”

     

    “Strong's Gk. No. 2424 Iesous {ee-ay-sooce'}  of Hebrew origin 03091; TDNT - 3:284,360; n pr m.  AV - Jesus 972, Jesus (Joshua) 2, Jesus (Justus) 1; 975 Jesus = "Jehovah is salvation" …”

     

    "Jehovah  ...  the Lord God.  XVI   (Tindale, Exod. vi 3, 1530).  alt. of the sacred Tetragrammaton vuvh JHVH of the Hebrews, the ineffable name of the Almighty, produced by the insertion of the vowel - points repr. the vowels ' (a), o, a of Adonai as a direction to substitute this for the ineffable name (as is done by Jerome in Exod. vi 3). It is held that the orig. name was Jahve(h), Yahwe(h)."-The Oxford Dictionary of English Etymology.'

     

    Where the phrase "in the name of The LORD (Heb. YHWH. Latin JHVH)" (O.T.) appears in the King James Version (& others) of the Bible (See Psalm 83:18).

     

                                    O.T.

    Duet 18:5; 18:7; 18:22; 21:5

    1 Sam 17:45; 20:42

    2 Sam 6:18

    1 Kings 18:32; 22:16

    2 Kings 2:24

    1 Chron 16:2; 21:19

    2 Chron 18:15; 33:18

    Ps 118:10; 118:11; 118:12; 118:26; 124:8; 129:8

    Isa 50:10

    Jer 11:21; 26:9; 26:16; 26:20;  44:16

    Mic 4:5:    

    Zeph 3:12;   
    Zec 13:3

     

    The questions are:

     
    1. What is "the name of the Lord" in the O.T. and then in the N.T.?
     
    2. WHY HAS That "name" been LEFT OUT OF THE SCRIPTURES?

     

    E.S.V. Deut. 12:32

    "Everything that I command you, you shall be careful to do.  You shall not add to it or take from it.”

     

    E.S.V. Rev 22:18-19

    “I WARN everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book (Gk. “bibiou”): if anyone adds to them, God will add to him the plagues described in this book (Gk. “biblio”),  and if anyone takes away from the words of the book (Gk.”bibliou”)of this prophecy, God will take away his share in the tree of life and in the holy city, which are described in this book (Gk. “biblio”).”


    Edited by robin - 11 April 2009 at 7:41am    ]]>     Sat, 11 Apr 2009 07:37:42 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=124886#124886     From where did the trinity teaching come? : Answering John 1:1 ... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=124376#124376 Author: Mansoor_ali
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 01 April 2009 at 11:43pm


     

    AnsweringJohn 1:1

     The biggest trinitarian-lie in mistranslation!

    Exposing the false trinity - A youtube channel by brother Brahim.  

    The Trinity Audio Debate!

    (click here)

    Listen to brother Sami Zaatari destroy Sam Shamoun's arguments!

    WARNING!!  Sam Shamoun kept throwing foul insults!  Viewer's discretion is advised.

    Another Trinity Audio Debate!

    (click here)

    Listen to brother Sami Zaatari debate a Christian preacher!

    Debate review with Christian preacher: preacher goes mad!   Warning the preacher gave many foul insults!

    The Shamoun-Winn Trinity Debate!

    See how the two trinitarian-stooges proved that trinity is no more than a big lie!

    The early Christians rejected Trinity.   Early Christians had major problems and disagreements about who truly Jesus was and whether or not he got crucified or not.

    Jesus had no Divine Will according to the New Testament. How could he be our Creator?

    Answering Trinity- A full proof from the Bible that Jesus is not GOD.

    The Hidden Truth: Trinity.

     
    ]]>     Wed, 01 Apr 2009 23:43:44 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=124376#124376     From where did the trinity teaching come? : The dogma of the Trinity The... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=124329#124329 Author: PattyaMainer
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 01 April 2009 at 4:22am

    The dogma of the Trinity

    The Trinity is the term employed to signify the central doctrine of the Christian religion -- the truth that in the unity of the Godhead there are Three Persons, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, these Three Persons being truly distinct one from another.

    Thus, in the words of the Athanasian Creed: "the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God, and yet there are not three Gods but one God." In this Trinity of Persons the Son is begotten of the Father by an eternal generation, and the Holy Spirit proceeds by an eternal procession from the Father and the Son. Yet, notwithstanding this difference as to origin, the Persons are co-eternal and co-equal: all alike are uncreated and omnipotent. This, the Church teaches, is the revelation regarding God's nature which Jesus Christ, the Son of God, came upon earth to deliver to the world: and which she proposes to man as the foundation of her whole dogmatic system.

    In Scripture there is as yet no single term by which the Three Divine Persons are denoted together. The word trias (of which the Latin trinitas is a translation) is first found in Theophilus of Antioch about A.D. 180. He speaks of "the Trinity of God [the Father], His Word and His Wisdom (To Autolycus II.15). The term may, of course, have been in use before his time. Afterwards it appears in its Latin form of trinitas in Tertullian (On Pudicity 21). In the next century the word is in general use. It is found in many passages of Origen ("In Ps. xvii", 15). The first creed in which it appears is that of Origen's pupil, Gregory Thaumaturgus. In his Ekthesis tes pisteos composed between 260 and 270, he writes:

    There is therefore nothing created, nothing subject to another in the Trinity: nor is there anything that has been added as though it once had not existed, but had entered afterwards: therefore the Father has never been without the Son, nor the Son without the Spirit: and this same Trinity is immutable and unalterable forever (P.G., X, 986).

    It is manifest that a dogma so mysterious presupposes a Divine revelation. When the fact of revelation, understood in its full sense as the speech of God to man, is no longer admitted, the rejection of the doctrine follows as a necessary consequence. For this reason it has no place in the Liberal Protestantism of today. The writers of this school contend that the doctrine of the Trinity, as professed by the Church, is not contained in the New Testament, but that it was first formulated in the second century and received final approbation in the fourth, as the result of the Arian and Macedonian controversies. In view of this assertion it is necessary to consider in some detail the evidence afforded by Holy Scripture. Attempts have been made recently to apply the more extreme theories of comparative religion to the doctrine of the Trinity, and to account for it by an imaginary law of nature compelling men to group the objects of their worship in threes. It seems needless to give more than a reference to these extravagant views, which serious thinkers of every school reject as destitute of foundation.

    Proof of doctrine from Scripture

    New Testament

    The evidence from the Gospels culminates in the baptismal commission of Matthew 28:20. It is manifest from the narratives of the Evangelists that Christ only made the great truth known to the Twelve step by step.

    First He taught them to recognize in Himself the Eternal Son of God. When His ministry was drawing to a close, He promised that the Father would send another Divine Person, the Holy Spirit, in His place. Finally after His resurrection, He revealed the doctrine in explicit terms, bidding them "go and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost" (Matthew 28:18). The force of this passage is decisive. That "the Father" and "the Son" are distinct Persons follows from the terms themselves, which are mutually exclusive. The mention of the Holy Spirit in the same series, the names being connected one with the other by the conjunctions "and . . . and" is evidence that we have here a Third Person co-ordinate with the Father and the Son, and excludes altogether the supposition that the Apostles understood the Holy Spirit not as a distinct Person, but as God viewed in His action on creatures.

    The phrase "in the name" (eis to onoma) affirms alike the Godhead of the Persons and their unity of nature. Among the Jews and in the Apostolic Church the Divine name was representative of God. He who had a right to use it was invested with vast authority: for he wielded the supernatural powers of Him whose name he employed. It is incredible that the phrase "in the name" should be here employed, were not all the Persons mentioned equally Divine. Moreover, the use of the singular, "name," and not the plural, shows that these Three Persons are that One Omnipotent God in whom the Apostles believed. Indeed the unity of God is so fundamental a tenet alike of the Hebrew and of the Christian religion, and is affirmed in such countless passages of the Old and New Testaments, that any explanation inconsistent with this doctrine would be altogether inadmissible.

    The supernatural appearance at the baptism of Christ is often cited as an explicit revelation of Trinitarian doctrine, given at the very commencement of the Ministry. This, it seems to us, is a mistake. The Evangelists, it is true, see in it a manifestation of the Three Divine Persons. Yet, apart from Christ's subsequent teaching, the dogmatic meaning of the scene would hardly have been understood. Moreover, the Gospel narratives appear to signify that none but Christ and the Baptist were privileged to see the Mystic Dove, and hear the words attesting the Divine sonship of the Messias.

    Besides these passages there are many others in the Gospels which refer to one or other of the Three Persons in particular and clearly express the separate personality and Divinity of each. In regard to the First Person it will not be necessary to give special citations: those which declare that Jesus Christ is God the Son, affirm thereby also the separate personality of the Father. The Divinity of Christ is amply attested not merely by St. John, but by the Synoptists. As this point is treated elsewhere (see JESUS CHRIST), it will be sufficient here to enumerate a few of the more important messages from the Synoptists, in which Christ bears witness to His Divine Nature.

    St. John's testimony is yet more explicit than that of the Synoptists. He expressly asserts that the very purpose of his Gospel is to establish the Divinity of Jesus Christ (John 20:31). In the prologue he identifies Him with the Word, the only-begotten of the Father, Who from all eternity exists with God, Who is God (John 1:1-18). The immanence of the Son in the Father and of the Father in the Son is declared in Christ's words to St. Philip: "Do you not believe, that I am in the Father, and the Father in Me?" (14:10), and in other passages no less explicit (14:7; 16:15; 17:21). The oneness of Their power and Their action is affirmed: "Whatever he [the Father] does, the Son also does in like manner" (5:19, cf. 10:38); and to the Son no less than to the Father belongs the Divine attribute of conferring life on whom He will (5:21). In 10:29, Christ expressly teaches His unity of essence with the Father: "That which my Father hath given me, is greater than all . . . I and the Father are one." The words, "That which my Father hath given me," can, having regard to the context, have no other meaning than the Divine Name, possessed in its fullness by the Son as by the Father.

    Rationalist critics lay great stress upon the text: "The Father is greater than I" (14:28). They argue that this suffices to establish that the author of the Gospel held subordinationist views, and they expound in this sense certain texts in which the Son declares His dependence on the Father (5:19; 8:28). In point of fact the doctrine of the Incarnation involves that, in regard of His Human Nature, the Son should be less than the Father. No argument against Catholic doctrine can, therefore, be drawn from this text. So too, the passages referring to the dependence of the Son upon the Father do but express what is essential to Trinitarian dogma, namely, that the Father is the supreme source from Whom the Divine Nature and perfections flow to the Son. (On the essential difference between St. John's doctrine as to the Person of Christ and the Logos doctrine of the Alexandrine Philo, to which many Rationalists have attempted to trace it, see LOGOS.)

    In regard to the Third Person of the Blessed Trinity, the passages which can be cited from the Synoptists as attesting His distinct personality are few. The words of Gabriel (Luke 1:35), having regard to the use of the term, "the Spirit," in the Old Testament, to signify God as operative in His creatures, can hardly be said to contain a definite revelation of the doctrine. For the same reason it is dubious whether Christ's warning to the Pharisees as regards blasphemy against the Holy Spirit (Matthew 12:31) can be brought forward as proof. But in Luke 12:12, "The Holy Ghost shall teach you in the same hour what you must say" (Matthew 10:20, and Luke 24:49), His personality is clearly implied. These passages, taken in connection with Matthew 28:19, postulate the existence of such teaching as we find in the discourses in the Cenacle reported by St. John (14, 15, 16). We have in these chapters the necessary preparation for the baptismal commission. In them the Apostles are instructed not only as the personality of the Spirit, but as to His office towards the Church. His work is to teach whatsoever He shall hear (16:13) to bring back their minds the teaching of Christ (14:26), to convince the world of sin (16:8). It is evident that, were the Spirit not a Person, Christ could not have spoken of His presence with the Apostles as comparable to His own presence with them (14:16). Again, were He not a Divine Person it could not have been expedient for the Apostles that Christ should leave them, and the Paraclete take His place (16:7). Moreover, notwithstanding the neuter form of the word (pneuma), the pronoun used in His regard is the masculine ekeinos. The distinction of the Holy Spirit from the Father and from the Son is involved in the express statements that He proceeds from the Father and is sent by the Son (15:26; cf. 14:16, 14:26). Nevertheless, He is one with Them: His presence with the Disciples is at the same time the presence of the Son (14:17-18), while the presence of the Son is the presence of the Father (14:23).

    In the remaining New Testament writings numerous passages attest how clear and definite was the belief of the Apostolic Church in the three Divine Persons. In certain texts the coordination of Father, Son, and Spirit leaves no possible doubt as to the meaning of the writer. Thus in 2 Corinthians 13:13, St. Paul writes: "The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, and the charity of God, and the communication of the Holy Ghost be with you all." Here the construction shows that the Apostle is speaking of three distinct Persons. Moreover, since the names God and Holy Ghost are alike Divine names, it follows that Jesus Christ is also regarded as a Divine Person. So also, in 1 Corinthians 12:4-11: "There are diversities of graces, but the same Spirit; and there are diversities of ministries, but the same Lord: and there are diversities of operations, but the same God, who worketh all [of them] in all [persons]." (Cf. also Ephesians 4:4-6; 1 Peter 1:2-3)

    But apart from passages such as these, where there is express mention of the Three Persons, the teaching of the New Testament regarding Christ and the Holy Spirit is free from all ambiguity. In regard to Christ, the Apostles employ modes of speech which, to men brought up in the Hebrew faith, necessarily signified belief in His Divinity. Such, for instance, is the use of the Doxology in reference to Him. The Doxology, "To Him be glory for ever and ever" (cf. 1 Chronicles 16:38; 29:11; Psalm 103:31; 28:2), is an expression of praise offered to God alone. In the New Testament we find it addressed not alone to God the Father, but to Jesus Christ (2 Timothy 4:18; 2 Peter 3:18; Revelation 1:6; Hebrews 13:20-21), and to God the Father and Christ in conjunction (Revelations 5:13, 7:10).

    Not less convincing is the use of the title Lord (Kyrios). This term represents the Hebrew Adonai, just as God (Theos) represents Elohim. The two are equally Divine names (cf. 1 Corinthians 8:4). In the Apostolic writings Theos may almost be said to be treated as a proper name of God the Father, and Kyrios of the Son (see, for example, 1 Corinthians 12:5-6); in only a few passages do we find Kyrios used of the Father (1 Corinthians 3:5; 7:17) or Theos of Christ. The Apostles from time to time apply to Christ passages of the Old Testament in which Kyrios is used, for example, 1 Corinthians 10:9 (Numbers 21:7), Hebrews 1:10-12 (Psalm 101:26-28); and they use such expressions as "the fear of the Lord" (Acts 9:31; 2 Corinthians 5:11; Ephesians 5:21), "call upon the name of the Lord," indifferently of God the Father and of Christ (Acts 2:21; 9:14; Romans 10:13). The profession that "Jesus is the Lord" (Kyrion Iesoun, Romans 10:9; Kyrios Iesous, 1 Corinthians 12:3) is the acknowledgment of Jesus as Jahweh. The texts in which St. Paul affirms that in Christ dwells the plenitude of the Godhead (Colossians 2:9), that before His Incarnation He possessed the essential nature of God (Philippians 2:6), that He "is over all things, God blessed for ever" (Romans 9:5) tell us nothing that is not implied in many other passages of his Epistles.

    The doctrine as to the Holy Spirit is equally clear. That His distinct personality was fully recognized is shown by many passages. Thus He reveals His commands to the Church's ministers: "As they were ministering to the Lord and fasting, the Holy Ghost said to them: Separate me Saul and Barnabas . . ." (Acts 13:2). He directs the missionary journey of the Apostles: "They attempted to go into Bithynia, and the Spirit of Jesus suffered them not" (Acts 16:7; cf. Acts 5:3; 15:28; Romans 15:30). Divine attributes are affirmed of Him.

    To sum up: the various elements of the Trinitarian doctrine are all expressly taught in the New Testament. The Divinity of the Three Persons is asserted or implied in passages too numerous to count. The unity of essence is not merely postulated by the strict monotheism of men nurtured in the religion of Israel, to whom "subordinate deities" would have been unthinkable; but it is, as we have seen, involved in the baptismal commission of Matthew 28:19, and, in regard to the Father and the Son, expressly asserted in John 10:38. That the Persons are co-eternal and coequal is a mere corollary from this. In regard to the Divine processions, the doctrine of the first procession is contained in the very terms Father and Son: the procession of the Holy Spirit from the Father and Son is taught in the discourse of the Lord reported by St. John (14-17) (see HOLY GHOST).

    Old Testament

    The early Fathers were persuaded that indications of the doctrine of the Trinity must exist in the Old Testament and they found such indications in not a few passages. Many of them not merely believed that the Prophets had testified of it, they held that it had been made known even to the Patriarchs. They regarded it as certain that the Divine messenger of Genesis 16:7, 16:18, 21:17, 31:11; Exodus 3:2, was God the Son; for reasons to be mentioned below (III. B.) they considered it evident that God the Father could not have thus manifested Himself (cf. Justin, Dialogue with Trypho 60; Irenaeus, Against Heresies IV.20.7-11; Tertullian, Against Praxeas 15-16; Theophilus, To Autolycus II.22; Novatian, On the Trinity 18, 25, etc.). They held that, when the inspired writers speak of "the Spirit of the Lord", the reference was to the Third Person of the Trinity; and one or two (Irenaeus, Against Heresies II.30.9; Theophilus, To Autolycus II.15; Hippolytus, Against Noetus 10) interpret the hypostatic Wisdom of the Sapiential books, not, with St. Paul, of the Son (Hebrews 1:3; cf. Wisdom 7:25-26), but of the Holy Spirit. But in others of the Fathers is found what would appear to be the sounder view, that no distinct intimation of the doctrine was given under the Old Covenant. (Cf. Gregory Nazianzen, Fifth Theological Oration 31; Epiphanius, "Ancor." 73, "Haer.", 74; Basil, Against Eunomius II.22; Cyril of Alexandria, "In Joan.", xii, 20.)

    Some of these, however, admitted that a knowledge of the mystery was granted to the Prophets and saints of the Old Dispensation (Epiphanius, "Haer.", viii, 5; Cyril of Alexandria, "Con. Julian., " I). It may be readily conceded that the way is prepared for the revelation in some of the prophecies. The names Emmanuel (Isaiah 7:14) and God the Mighty (Isaiah 9:6) affirmed of the Messias make mention of the Divine Nature of the promised deliverer. Yet it seems that the Gospel revelation was needed to render the full meaning of the passages clear. Even these exalted titles did not lead the Jews to recognize that the Saviour to come was to be none other than God Himself. The Septuagint translators do not even venture to render the words God the Mighty literally, but give us, in their place, "the angel of great counsel."

    A still higher stage of preparation is found in the doctrine of the Sapiential books regarding the Divine Wisdom. In Proverbs 8, Wisdom appears personified, and in a manner which suggests that the sacred author was not employing a mere metaphor, but had before his mind a real person (cf. verses 22, 23). Similar teaching occurs in Ecclesiasticus 24, in a discourse which Wisdom is declared to utter in "the assembly of the Most High", i.e. in the presence of the angels. This phrase certainly supposes Wisdom to be conceived as person. The nature of the personality is left obscure; but we are told that the whole earth is Wisdom's Kingdom, that she finds her delight in all the works of God, but that Israel is in a special manner her portion and her inheritance (Ecclesiasticus 24:8-13).

    In the Book of the Wisdom of Solomon we find a still further advance. Here Wisdom is clearly distinguished from Jehovah: "She is . . . a certain pure emanation of the glory of the almighty God. . .the brightness of eternal light, and the unspotted mirror of God's majesty, and the image of his goodness" (Wisdom 7:25-26. Cf. Hebrews 1:3). She is, moreover, described as "the worker of all things" (panton technitis, 7:21), an expression indicating that the creation is in some manner attributable to her. Yet in later Judaism this exalted doctrine suffered eclipse, and seems to have passed into oblivion. Nor indeed can it be said that the passage, even though it manifests some knowledge of a second personality in the Godhead, constitutes a revelation of the Trinity. For nowhere in the Old Testament do we find any clear indication of a Third Person. Mention is often made of the Spirit of the Lord, but there is nothing to show that the Spirit was viewed as distinct from Jahweh Himself. The term is always employed to signify God considered in His working, whether in the universe or in the soul of man. The matter seems to be correctly summed up by Epiphanius, when he says: "The One Godhead is above all declared by Moses, and the twofold personality (of Father and Son) is strenuously asserted by the Prophets. The Trinity is made known by the Gospel" ("Haer.", lxxiv).

    ]]>     Wed, 01 Apr 2009 04:22:14 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=124329#124329     From where did the trinity teaching come? : assalam alaikum this is from... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=124328#124328 Author: Nazarene
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 01 April 2009 at 3:54am

    assalam alaikum
     
    this is from encata online 

    Trinity (theology), in Christian theology, doctrine that God exists as three persons—Father, Son, and Holy Spirit—who are united in one substance or being. The doctrine is not taught explicitly in the New Testament, where the word God almost invariably refers to the Father; but already Jesus Christ, the Son, is seen as standing in a unique relation to the Father, while the Holy Spirit is also emerging as a distinct divine person.

    The term trinitas was first used in the 2nd century, by the Latin theologian Tertullian, but the concept was developed in the course of the debates on the nature of Christ (see Christology). In the 4th century, the doctrine was finally formulated; using terminology still employed by Christian theologians, the doctrine taught the coequality of the persons of the Godhead. In the West, the 4th-century theologian St. Augustine's influential work De Trinitate (On the Trinity, 400-16) compared the three-in-oneness of God with analogous structures in the human mind and suggested that the Holy Spirit may be understood as the mutual love between Father and Son (although this second point seems difficult to reconcile with the belief that the Spirit is a distinct, coequal member of the Trinity). The stress on equality, however, was never understood as detracting from a certain primacy of the Father—from whom the other two persons derive, even if they do so eternally. For an adequate understanding of the trinitarian conception of God, the distinctions among the persons of the Trinity must not become so sharp that there seems to be a plurality of gods, nor may these distinctions be swallowed up in an undifferentiated monism.

    The doctrine of the Trinity may be understood on different levels. On one level, it is a means of construing the word God in Christian discourse. God is not a uniquely Christian word, and it needs specific definition in Christian theology. This need for a specifically Christian definition is already apparent in the New Testament, where Paul says, “there are many 'gods' and many 'lords'—yet for us there is one God, the Father ..., and one Lord, Jesus Christ” (1 Corinthians 8:5-6). These words constitute the beginning of a process of clarification and definition, of which the end product is the doctrine of the Trinity. At another level, the doctrine may be seen as a transcript of Christian experience: The God of the Hebrew tradition had become known in a new way, first in the person of Christ, and then in the Spirit that moved in the church. On a third, speculative level of understanding, the doctrine reveals the dynamism of the Christian conception of God—involving notions of a source, a coming forth, and a return (primordial, expressive, and unitive Being). In this sense, the Christian doctrine has parallels both in philosophy (the 19th-century German philosopher Georg Wilhelm Friedrich Hegel's Absolute) and in other religions (the Trimurti of Hinduism).

        

    Trimurti, in Hinduism, the divine trinity of the great gods Brahma, Shiva, and Vishnu. Brahma is seen as the originator of the cosmos, Vishnu as its preserver, and Shiva as its destroyer.

    peace
    leland
    ]]>     Wed, 01 Apr 2009 03:54:12 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=124328#124328     From where did the trinity teaching come? : Everybody has heard of osiris... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=122733#122733 Author: owen.grandison
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 07 March 2009 at 6:55am

    Everybody has heard of osiris and horus, which is the greek terminology of the correct name Asaru and Haru.  They both sit in the seat of Re which is similar to the seat of Anu.  Asaru is the right eye and his son Haru is the left eye, now Asaru was the most high until his son becomes old and wise enough to sit in that position that his father was in so the Haru becomes the most high.  You see you must always remember that the seat of Re is just that, a seat so somebody who is ready can occupy that position, just like for example the presidency of the U.S.A.

    Asaru and Haru are not from this planet Asar and Haru are from Sirius but they incarnated here on earth and became the highest beings on Ptah (earth) they were the terrestrial representation of Re (Anu) so they decided to teach the Ptahites who are Tamareans (Ancient Africans) Tamare is an older name of Egypt.  Since they were teaching the Ptahites they created the earthly Order of Re, so basically they were representing Anu (the heavenly one) but the ancient tamareans say Re.  Remember Anu also is a title and a seat the Anu we are talking about now is the ninth Anu.

    So Asaru and Haru brought that practice down to earth and created the order so the Ptahites could gain and grow more knowledge by living in the image and likeness of Re (Anu).  The people that was in the order were also known as the people of the sun, because the sun is the all seeing eye it sees all dimensions and Asaru represents the all seeing eye because he created that order on earth and he realised that the sun is the life giver.  Everything natural grows towards the sun; the sun is the source of all life.

    Pygmies are Ptahites Pygmy is a teerm given to the Ptahites by the Europeans because they wer short, Pigmy is a mocking term.  Ptah is another name for earth.  So because Asaru and Haru taught and became close to them they were also known as Ptahites, because they were ruling Ptah, which means earth, and they became known as Ptahite kings.

    Osiris comes from the Sirius Star Copnstellation you can see it in the Greek terminology of the correct name Asaru.  Now it has become common knowledge (i hope) that the jesus story comes from out of Egypt.  Look at this simple example below:

    Asaru   HEAVENLY FATHER

    Haru     THE SON

    Aset     THE MOTHER

    Khonsu  THE HOLY GHOST

    THIS IS TAKING YOU BACK TO EGYPT THE ORIGINAL QUADITY, AND THE CHURCHES ONLY RESPECT THE TRINITY NOT GIVING REVERENCE TO THE WOMAN, JESUS HAS TOM COME THROUGH A WOMAN IN ORDER TO COMPLETE HIS MISSION.


    ]]>     Sat, 07 Mar 2009 06:55:16 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=122733#122733     From where did the trinity teaching come? : Originally posted by myahya Mary... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=121518#121518 Author: robin
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 12 February 2009 at 1:40am

    Originally posted by myahya

    Mary was from the tribe of Aaron, that is why she was called thus. I believe Biblically this is also correct, therefore making it pretty much impossible for Jesus to be the seed of David. But I digress....

    This may be why her society called her so. Of course there must have been a reason for it. I have also read that Bani Israel used to make a form of connection between a person and one of thier prophets at the time of calling the name of that person to show and highlight thier respect (that they already had)  towards that person. But regardless of its reason, I wanted to point out that it can never show there is a time mistake or error in Quran.
     

    Mary was of the tribe of Judah and a descendant of David. Hence it could be said of her son Jesus that he "sprang from the seed of David according to the flesh." (Rom. 1:3) Through his adoptive father Joseph, a descendant of David, Jesus had a legal right to David’s throne, and through his mother, as the "offspring," "seed," and "root" of David, he held the natural hereditary right to "the throne of David his father."—READ Matthew. 1:1-16; Luke 1:32



    Edited by robin - 12 February 2009 at 1:40am    ]]>     Thu, 12 Feb 2009 01:40:16 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=121518#121518     From where did the trinity teaching come? : Mary was from the tribe of Aaron,... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=121280#121280 Author: myahya
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 06 February 2009 at 11:09pm

    Mary was from the tribe of Aaron, that is why she was called thus. I believe Biblically this is also correct, therefore making it pretty much impossible for Jesus to be the seed of David. But I digress....

    This may be why her society called her so. Of course there must have been a reason for it. I have also read that Bani Israel used to make a form of connection between a person and one of thier prophets at the time of calling the name of that person to show and highlight thier respect (that they already had)  towards that person. But regardless of its reason, I wanted to point out that it can never show there is a time mistake or error in Quran.
    ]]>     Fri, 06 Feb 2009 23:09:08 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=121280#121280     From where did the trinity teaching come? : Originally posted by OneWaymyahya... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=121230#121230 Author: Honzo
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 05 February 2009 at 9:44pm

    Originally posted by OneWay

    myahya
     
     
    You beleive the Koran to be 100% accurate.
     
              The Koran claims that it was written by the perfect, immutable God who created the universe and knows all things.  On the contrary, the Koran has a number of historical, theological, and other errors that contradict reality.  

     

     In the Koran, Abraham lived in a land ruled by King Nimrod.  In the story (Sura 21:58-69), Abraham destroys the idols of his people, and as a result, is thrown into a fire by Nimrod.  However, Nimrod (Sargon I?) was the great grandson of Noah and the founder of the cities of Babylon and Nineveh (Genesis 10:8-11), but Abraham was nine generations separated from Noah (Genesis 11:10-27) and came from Ur of the Chaldees.  How could Nimrod (a man who had been dead for many years) throw Abraham (a man who had not even been born yet) into a fire?!  Ofcourse, the error stems from the fact that Muhammad got this story froma Jewish legend (i.e. Midrash Rabbah) rather than a revelation from God.

     


     Difference between the Quran and Bible only prove Islam's truthfulness and divinity:
     

     
    Originally posted by OneWay

     
     Abraham and the Ka’bah

     

                According to the Koran, Abraham and his son Ishmael were the ones who built the Ka’bah in Mecca (Sura 2:127).  However, this contradicts all the history books known to man:

     

    “…thereis no historical evidence for the assertion that Abraham or Ishmael wasever in Mecca, and if there had been such a tradition it would have tobe explained how all memory of the Old Semitic name Ishmael (which wasnot in its true Arabian form in Arabian inscriptions and writtencorrectly with an initial consonant Y) came to be lost.  The form in the Quran is taken either from Greek or Syriac sources.”

    -Alfred Guillaume, Islam (Baltimore: Penguin Books Inc., 1956), pp.61-62..

     

      Ka'bah as a place of worship in the history:
     
      Ka'bah in the Bible:
     
    Originally posted by OneWay

    The name of Abraham's father was not Azar, as the Koran states in     Sura 6:74, but Terah (Genesis 11:26). The Koran further teaches that Pharaoh's wife adopted Moses (Sura 28:8,9), whereas Moses himself said he was adopted by Pharaoh's daughter (Exodus 2:5-10)
     
     
     Difference between the Quran and Bible only prove Islam's truthfulness and divinity:
     
    Originally posted by OneWay

    In several places the Koran associates Haman with a Pharaoh of     Moses' time (Sura 28:6-7, 38; 40:24, 36), but from the Bible book of Esther (3:1-10), we know that Haman was a servant of Ahasuerus I, the 5th century BC Medo-Persian king (known to us all as Xerxes) who lost the battle of Marathon. So Haman was really born a thousand years afterMoses!
     
     
     Isthe Qur'anic account of Haman appropriated from the Hebrew Bible andJewish mythology? A critical examination of the Biblical accountcoupled with an investigation into the ancient Egyptian historicalrecords, paying special attention to the hieroglyphic evidence,concludes with a re-evaluation against Orientalist suppositions infavour of the Qur'an.
     
    Originally posted by OneWay

    InSura 20:85-88, 95, we are told that it was a Samaritan that deceivedthe Israelites into making the golden calf after the exodus out of Egypt.  However, there was no such thing as a Samaritan until the city of Samariawas founded several centuries after the events in Exodus, and theseparate people called Samaritans (the implied definition in the Koran)did not exist until even later when Assyria invaded the Northern Kingdom.  This is yet another embarrassing time compression found in the Koran.
     
     
     Who are theSamaritans and what does recent historical analyses and scientificinvestigation into their origins tell us about their role in ancienthistory? Is the Qur'anic mention of al-Samiri (sometimestranslated as "the Samaritan") during the time of Moses consistent withmodern investigations into the ancestral origins of the Samaritan sect?A critical discussion of the evidence provided by II Kings 17 in lightof the extant archaeological evidence calls into question the veracityof the biblical account.
     
    Originally posted by OneWay

    In Sura 19:7 we read:

     “(It was said unto him): O Zachariah!  Lo! We bring thee tidings of a son whose name is John; we have given the same name to none before (him).”

                -Sura 19:7

     

    Thistranslation (by an orthodox Muslim) and other translations quiteclearly state that there was no one named John before John the Baptist. In reality, this claim is absolutely silly!  There were Johns long before John the Baptist (see 2 Kings 25:23, 1 Chronicles 3:15, 24, 6:9, 10, Ezra 8:12, King John Hyrcanus, John the Essene, John Maccabeus, etc.).  ModernMuslims have seen the obvious historical error, and so they have triedto say that the Arabic text doesn’t actually say what it says.




      
     
     
    Originally posted by OneWay

    In Sura 19:28, Mary, the mother of Jesus, is said to be the sister of Aaron and Moses and the daughter of Amram (Sura 66:12).  However, Jesus was not born for another 1400 years after Moses!  It is clear that Muhammad confused Miriam, the sister of Moses, with Mary the mother of Jesus and wife of Joseph.
     
     
      
    Originally posted by OneWay

    Whydid Mohammed mistakenly think  that Mary was the third member of theChristian trinity.  The third member is The Holy Spirit, not Marry.
     
     
     
    Originally posted by OneWay

    (The Dead Sea Scrolls contradict the theory the old Testament has been changed)
     
     OneWay point outs “Errors” from the Quran but haven’t even solved 20% of the errors found in the Bible at www.1001errors.com.


    -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    Excellent Response
    ]]>     Thu, 05 Feb 2009 21:44:20 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=121230#121230     From where did the trinity teaching come? : &#034;In Sura 19:28, Mary, the... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=121212#121212 Author: Shasta'sAunt
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 05 February 2009 at 6:05pm

    "In Sura 19:28, Mary, the mother of Jesus, is said to be the sister of Aaron and Moses and the daughter of Amram (Sura 66:12).  However, Jesus was not born for another 1400 years after Moses!  It is clear that Muhammad confused Miriam, the sister of Moses, with Mary the mother of Jesus and wife of Joseph.  It is not mentioned in
     
    the Quran that Mary is the sister of Moses (as) not even Haroon (as). Thus, do not add anything to the Quran please. In Quran the verse says that her society called her “O, Sister of Haroon”. This is the way her society called her at that moment and the Quran is reporting it. It does not prove the Quran stating that Mary must have been the sister of the prophet Haroon (as), does it?"
     
    Mary was from the tribe of Aaron, that is why she was called thus. I believe Biblically this is also correct, therefore making it pretty much impossible for Jesus to be the seed of David. But I digress....


    Edited by Shasta'sAunt - 05 February 2009 at 6:09pm    ]]>     Thu, 05 Feb 2009 18:05:34 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=121212#121212     From where did the trinity teaching come? : I have read from a Jewish theologian... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=121100#121100 Author: Hayfa
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 03 February 2009 at 9:55am

    I have read from a Jewish theologian that the reason Jews rejected Jesus as the Messiah is that when the Messiah comes "Peace shall reign on earth." And that did not happen.
     
    Jesus came to correct the people who had gone astray. Of course some rejected this message because who wants to be told they are doing wrong.. lol
     
    Jewish folks, like Muslim folk, reject that Jesus was the "son of God" that is so ingrained in Christianity these days.  But at the time the coming of the Messiah shall signal many things and did not happen.  Then some rejected cause they did not "like the message" of being told to clean up their acts..lol
     
    Nur, Are you getting the words "prophet" and "messiah" mixed up? Heck I get all this stuff mixed up.. lol.. I have never heard Prophet Mohammed be called a Messiah before your post.
       


    Edited by Hayfa - 05 February 2009 at 7:32pm    ]]>     Tue, 03 Feb 2009 09:55:31 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=121100#121100     From where did the trinity teaching come? : OneWay:You beleive... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=121096#121096 Author: myahya
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 03 February 2009 at 8:35am

    OneWay:

    You beleive theKoran to be 100% accurate.

    I believe so.

    The Koran claimsthat it was written by the perfect, immutable God who created the universe andknows all things. 

    Without a doubt.

     In theKoran, Abraham lived in a land ruled by King Nimrod.  In the story (Sura 21:58-69), Abraham destroys the idols of his people, and as aresult, is thrown into a fire by Nimrod.  However, Nimrod (Sargon I?) wasthe great grandson of Noah and the founder of the cities of Babylon and Nineveh (Genesis 10:8-11), butAbraham was nine generations separated from Noah (Genesis 11:10-27) and came from Ur of the Chaldees. How could Nimrod (a man who had been dead for many years) throw Abraham (a manwho had not even been born yet) into a fire?!  Of course, the error stemsfrom the fact that Muhammad got this story from a Jewish legend (i.e. MidrashRabbah) rather than a revelation from God. 

    First of all, there is nosuch a name (Nimrod) in Quran. Second, let us assume that the name of the kingof Abraham’s time be Nimrod. How do you say this must be the grandson of Noah?

    Abraham and theKa’bah

               According to the Koran, Abraham and his son Ishmael were the ones who built theKa’bah in Mecca (Sura 2:127).  However, thiscontradicts all the history books known to man:

    “…there is nohistorical evidence for the assertion that Abraham or Ishmael was ever inMecca, and if there had been such a tradition it would have to be explained howall memory of the Old Semitic name Ishmael (which was not in its true Arabianform in Arabian inscriptions and written correctly with an initial consonant Y)came to be lost.  The form in the Quran is taken either from Greek orSyriac sources.”

    -AlfredGuillaume, Islam (Baltimore: Penguin Books Inc., 1956), pp.61-62.

    What you brought did notprove that Abraham and Ishmael were never been to Mecca, did it?

    The name ofAbraham's father was not Azar, as the Koran states in Sura 6:74, but Terah(Genesis 11:26).

    How do you know that Quranmeant that Azar was Abraham’s biological father? On the other hand, in Quransometimes the word “Ab” is also used for uncle. It is not always used for thefather.

    The Koranfurther teaches that Pharaoh's wife adopted Moses (Sura 28:8,9), whereas Moseshimself said he was adopted by Pharaoh's daughter (Exodus 2:5-10).

    Quran says that Pharaoh'sfamily took Moses (as) from water and his wife told him to not kill Moses (as)and adopt him as their child. What Quran says makes sense because Pharaohused to kill every male infant and nothing would change his mind unless at least Pharaoh(himself) could benefit from it. He wouldn’t leave the baby alive only becausehis daughter wanted so. His wife, however, was the only one who could effectivelyinfluence Pharaoh from one side (because of being his wife) and convincePharaoh to adopt the child for himself and stop killing him from the other side.

    In severalplaces the Koran associates Haman with a Pharaoh of Moses' time (Sura 28:6-7,38; 40:24, 36), but from the Bible book of Esther (3:1-10), we know that Hamanwas a servant of Ahasuerus I, the 5th century BC Medo-Persian king (known to usall as Xerxes) who lost the battle of Marathon. So Haman was really born athousand years afterMoses!

    How do you know the nameHaman mentioned in the Quran is the same person mentioned in the Old Testament?  

    In Sura20:85-88, 95, we are told that it was a Samaritan that deceived the Israelitesinto making the golden calf after the exodus out of<st1:country-region>Egypt</st1:country-region>.  However,there was no such thing as a Samaritan until the city of Samaria was founded severalcenturies after the events in Exodus, and the separate people called Samaritans(the implied definition in the Koran) did not exist until even later when Assyria invaded the Northern Kingdom.  This is yetanother embarrassing time compression found in the Koran.

    What a superficial judgment. In the Quran it is written that the name of the person was Samiri. Wheredoes it say he was Samaritan? This was the name and does not prove that theperson must have been Samaritan. In fact he was among the same society (BaniIsrael).

    Let me tell you what isembarrassing. In the Old Testament it is written that Haroon (as) was the onewho made the Golden Calf for them, while we know that he was a prophet. What aridiculous shameful accusation against the prophet of God it is. Even this single nonsensical accusation against a prophet isenough to convince me that the Old Testament is corrupted. Even if it ismentioned in the Dead Sea Scrolls. If Dead Sea Scrolls are claming the same on this issue, besure that they are all corrupted as well. Such a corruption falls in the sameline of attempts in history to degrade the prophets.

      InSura 19:7 we read:

     “(It wassaid unto him): O Zachariah!  Lo! We bring thee tidings of a son whosename is John; we have given the same name to none before (him).”

               -Sura 19:7

     Thistranslation (by an orthodox Muslim) and other translations quite clearly statethat there was no one named John before John the Baptist. In reality, thisclaim is absolutely silly!  There were Johns long before John the Baptist(see 2 Kings 25:23, 1 Chronicles 3:15, 24, 6:9, 10, Ezra 8:12, King John Hyrcanus, John the Essene, John Maccabeus,etc.).  Modern Muslims have seen the obvious historical error, and so theyhave tried to say that the Arabic text doesn’t actually say what it says. 

    The son of Zachariah wasnamed “Yahya” and the Quran says that there was no one named “Yahya” before.The silly thing is that someone has changed/translated the name “Yahya” to“John the Baptist” and then we see arguments that there had been the name "John" before theson of Zachariah. May be there had been “John” or “Yochanan” or any name beforethe son of Zachariah. But the name “Yahya” never was on any individual beforehim.

     In Sura19:28, Mary, the mother of Jesus, is said to be the sister of Aaron and Mosesand the daughter of Amram (Sura 66:12).  However, Jesus was not born foranother 1400 years after Moses!  It is clear that Muhammad confusedMiriam, the sister of Moses, with Mary the mother of Jesus and wife ofJoseph. 

    It isnot mentioned in the Quran that Mary is the sister of Moses (as) not evenHaroon (as). Thus, do not add anything to the Quran please. In Quran the verse saysthat her society called her “O, Sister of Haroon”. This is the way her societycalled her at that moment and the Quran is reporting it. It does not prove theQuran stating that Mary must have been the sister of the prophet Haroon (as),does it?

    Edited by myahya - 03 February 2009 at 8:42am    ]]>     Tue, 03 Feb 2009 08:35:36 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=121096#121096     From where did the trinity teaching come? : Originally posted by OneWaymyahya... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=120763#120763 Author: Mansoor_ali
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 29 January 2009 at 2:28pm

    Originally posted by OneWay

    myahya
     
     
    You beleive the Koran to be 100% accurate.
     
              The Koran claims that it was written by the perfect, immutable God who created the universe and knows all things.  On the contrary, the Koran has a number of historical, theological, and other errors that contradict reality.  

     

     In the Koran, Abraham lived in a land ruled by King Nimrod.  In the story (Sura 21:58-69), Abraham destroys the idols of his people, and as a result, is thrown into a fire by Nimrod.  However, Nimrod (Sargon I?) was the great grandson of Noah and the founder of the cities of Babylon and Nineveh (Genesis 10:8-11), but Abraham was nine generations separated from Noah (Genesis 11:10-27) and came from Ur of the Chaldees.  How could Nimrod (a man who had been dead for many years) throw Abraham (a man who had not even been born yet) into a fire?!  Of course, the error stems from the fact that Muhammad got this story from a Jewish legend (i.e. Midrash Rabbah) rather than a revelation from God.

     
     Difference between the Quran and Bible only prove Islam's truthfulness and divinity:
     

     
    Originally posted by OneWay

     
     Abraham and the Ka’bah

     

                According to the Koran, Abraham and his son Ishmael were the ones who built the Ka’bah in Mecca (Sura 2:127).  However, this contradicts all the history books known to man:

     

    “…there is no historical evidence for the assertion that Abraham or Ishmael was ever in Mecca, and if there had been such a tradition it would have to be explained how all memory of the Old Semitic name Ishmael (which was not in its true Arabian form in Arabian inscriptions and written correctly with an initial consonant Y) came to be lost.  The form in the Quran is taken either from Greek or Syriac sources.”

    -Alfred Guillaume, Islam (Baltimore: Penguin Books Inc., 1956), pp.61-62..

     
      Ka'bah as a place of worship in the history:
     
      Ka'bah in the Bible:
     
    Originally posted by OneWay

    The name of Abraham's father was not Azar, as the Koran states in     Sura 6:74, but Terah (Genesis 11:26). The Koran further teaches that Pharaoh's wife adopted Moses (Sura 28:8,9), whereas Moses himself said he was adopted by Pharaoh's daughter (Exodus 2:5-10)
     
     
     Difference between the Quran and Bible only prove Islam's truthfulness and divinity:
     
    Originally posted by OneWay

    In several places the Koran associates Haman with a Pharaoh of     Moses' time (Sura 28:6-7, 38; 40:24, 36), but from the Bible book of Esther (3:1-10), we know that Haman was a servant of Ahasuerus I, the 5th century BC Medo-Persian king (known to us all as Xerxes) who lost the battle of Marathon. So Haman was really born a thousand years afterMoses!
     
     
     Is the Qur'anic account of Haman appropriated from the Hebrew Bible and Jewish mythology? A critical examination of the Biblical account coupled with an investigation into the ancient Egyptian historical records, paying special attention to the hieroglyphic evidence, concludes with a re-evaluation against Orientalist suppositions in favour of the Qur'an.
     
    Originally posted by OneWay

    In Sura 20:85-88, 95, we are told that it was a Samaritan that deceived the Israelites into making the golden calf after the exodus out of Egypt.  However, there was no such thing as a Samaritan until the city of Samaria was founded several centuries after the events in Exodus, and the separate people called Samaritans (the implied definition in the Koran) did not exist until even later when Assyria invaded the Northern Kingdom.  This is yet another embarrassing time compression found in the Koran.
     
     
     Who are the Samaritans and what does recent historical analyses and scientific investigation into their origins tell us about their role in ancient history? Is the Qur'anic mention of al-Samiri (sometimes translated as "the Samaritan") during the time of Moses consistent with modern investigations into the ancestral origins of the Samaritan sect? A critical discussion of the evidence provided by II Kings 17 in light of the extant archaeological evidence calls into question the veracity of the biblical account.
     
    Originally posted by OneWay

    In Sura 19:7 we read:

     “(It was said unto him): O Zachariah!  Lo! We bring thee tidings of a son whose name is John; we have given the same name to none before (him).”

                -Sura 19:7

     

    This translation (by an orthodox Muslim) and other translations quite clearly state that there was no one named John before John the Baptist. In reality, this claim is absolutely silly!  There were Johns long before John the Baptist (see 2 Kings 25:23, 1 Chronicles 3:15, 24, 6:9, 10, Ezra 8:12, King John Hyrcanus, John the Essene, John Maccabeus, etc.).  Modern Muslims have seen the obvious historical error, and so they have tried to say that the Arabic text doesn’t actually say what it says.

      

     
     
    Originally posted by OneWay

    In Sura 19:28, Mary, the mother of Jesus, is said to be the sister of Aaron and Moses and the daughter of Amram (Sura 66:12).  However, Jesus was not born for another 1400 years after Moses!  It is clear that Muhammad confused Miriam, the sister of Moses, with Mary the mother of Jesus and wife of Joseph.
     
     
      
    Originally posted by OneWay

    Why did Mohammed mistakenly think  that Mary was the third member of the Christian trinity.  The third member is The Holy Spirit, not Marry.
     
     
     
    Originally posted by OneWay

    (The Dead Sea Scrolls contradict the theory the old Testament has been changed)
     
     OneWay point outs “Errors” from the Quran but haven’t even solved 20% of the errors found in the Bible at www.1001errors.com.
     
    ]]>     Thu, 29 Jan 2009 14:28:40 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=120763#120763     From where did the trinity teaching come? : Originally posted by OneWay The... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=120762#120762 Author: Mansoor_ali
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 29 January 2009 at 1:44pm

    Originally posted by OneWay

     
     
    The Bible dosn't mention the word bible.  Does the Koran mention the word Koran?
     
     Yes it does.Read section Etymology and meaning under wikipedia.
     
    Originally posted by OneWay

    The bible says Jesus is God, The Holy spirit is God, and God the Father is God, but there is only One God. 
     
    Therefore we can not comprehend God. 
     
    John 1:1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    John 1:2  He was in the beginning with God.
    John 1:3  All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
    John 1:14  And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.
     
     Bible doesnot say that.Here is response to John 1:1
     
    Originally posted by OneWay

    John 15:26  "When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me,
     
     Luke 12:11  "When they bring you before the synagogues and the rulers and the authorities, do not worry about how or what you are to speak in your defense, or what you are to say;
    Luke 12:12  for the Holy Spirit will teach you in that very hour what you ought to say."
     
     These verses are talking about Prophet Muhammad.Here is detailed response:
     http://www.answering-christianity.com/predict.htm

    Originally posted by OneWay

    According to the bible God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit all have the same attributes.  Thus the term Trinity.  You dont have to accept the word trinity, you have to except what the bible says about God!
     
     The ecumenical councils of Church, and how Jesus was made part of the trinity.   Read what happened in the first 7 council.  Many Christians do not know about the important facts in this article.
    ]]>     Thu, 29 Jan 2009 13:44:39 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=120762#120762     From where did the trinity teaching come? : myahya You beleive the Koran... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=120686#120686 Author: OneWay
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 28 January 2009 at 10:43am

    myahya
     
     
    You beleive the Koran to be 100% accurate.
     
              The Koran claims that it was written by the perfect, immutable God who created the universe and knows all things.  On the contrary, the Koran has a number of historical, theological, and other errors that contradict reality.  

     

     In the Koran, Abraham lived in a land ruled by King Nimrod.  In the story (Sura 21:58-69), Abraham destroys the idols of his people, and as a result, is thrown into a fire by Nimrod.  However, Nimrod (Sargon I?) was the great grandson of Noah and the founder of the cities of Babylon and Nineveh (Genesis 10:8-11), but Abraham was nine generations separated from Noah (Genesis 11:10-27) and came from Ur of the Chaldees.  How could Nimrod (a man who had been dead for many years) throw Abraham (a man who had not even been born yet) into a fire?!  Of course, the error stems from the fact that Muhammad got this story from a Jewish legend (i.e. Midrash Rabbah) rather than a revelation from God. 

     

     

    Abraham and the Ka’bah

     

                According to the Koran, Abraham and his son Ishmael were the ones who built the Ka’bah in Mecca (Sura 2:127).  However, this contradicts all the history books known to man:

     

    “…there is no historical evidence for the assertion that Abraham or Ishmael was ever in Mecca, and if there had been such a tradition it would have to be explained how all memory of the Old Semitic name Ishmael (which was not in its true Arabian form in Arabian inscriptions and written correctly with an initial consonant Y) came to be lost.  The form in the Quran is taken either from Greek or Syriac sources.”

    -Alfred Guillaume, Islam (Baltimore: Penguin Books Inc., 1956), pp.61-62.

     
    The name of Abraham's father was not Azar, as the Koran states in Sura 6:74, but Terah (Genesis 11:26). The Koran further teaches that Pharaoh's wife adopted Moses (Sura 28:8,9), whereas Moses himself said he was adopted by Pharaoh's daughter (Exodus 2:5-10).
     
    In several places the Koran associates Haman with a Pharaoh of Moses' time (Sura 28:6-7, 38; 40:24, 36), but from the Bible book of Esther (3:1-10), we know that Haman was a servant of Ahasuerus I, the 5th century BC Medo-Persian king (known to us all as Xerxes) who lost the battle of Marathon. So Haman was really born a thousand years afterMoses!
     
     
    In Sura 20:85-88, 95, we are told that it was a Samaritan that deceived the Israelites into making the golden calf after the exodus out of Egypt.  However, there was no such thing as a Samaritan until the city of Samaria was founded several centuries after the events in Exodus, and the separate people called Samaritans (the implied definition in the Koran) did not exist until even later when Assyria invaded the Northern Kingdom.  This is yet another embarrassing time compression found in the Koran.
     
      In Sura 19:7 we read:

     “(It was said unto him): O Zachariah!  Lo! We bring thee tidings of a son whose name is John; we have given the same name to none before (him).”

                -Sura 19:7

     

    This translation (by an orthodox Muslim) and other translations quite clearly state that there was no one named John before John the Baptist. In reality, this claim is absolutely silly!  There were Johns long before John the Baptist (see 2 Kings 25:23, 1 Chronicles 3:15, 24, 6:9, 10, Ezra 8:12, King John Hyrcanus, John the Essene, John Maccabeus, etc.).  Modern Muslims have seen the obvious historical error, and so they have tried to say that the Arabic text doesn’t actually say what it says. 

     
     In Sura 19:28, Mary, the mother of Jesus, is said to be the sister of Aaron and Moses and the daughter of Amram (Sura 66:12).  However, Jesus was not born for another 1400 years after Moses!  It is clear that Muhammad confused Miriam, the sister of Moses, with Mary the mother of Jesus and wife of Joseph. 
     
    Why did Mohammed mistakenly think  that Mary was the third member of the Christian trinity.  The third member is The Holy Spirit, not Marry.
     
    (The Dead Sea Scrolls contradict the theory the old Testament has been changed)
    ]]>     Wed, 28 Jan 2009 10:43:08 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=120686#120686     From where did the trinity teaching come? : The Bible dosn&#039;t mention... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=120679#120679 Author: OneWay
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 28 January 2009 at 8:47am

     
     
    The Bible dosn't mention the word bible.  Does the Koran mention the word Koran?
     
    The bible says Jesus is God, The Holy spirit is God, and God the Father is God, but there is only One God. 
     
    Therefore we can not comprehend God. 
     
    John 1:1  In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
    John 1:2  He was in the beginning with God.
    John 1:3  All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being.
    John 1:14  And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we saw His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth.
     
    John 15:26  "When the Helper comes, whom I will send to you from the Father, that is the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify about Me,
     
    Luke 12:11  "When they bring you before the synagogues and the rulers and the authorities, do not worry about how or what you are to speak in your defense, or what you are to say;
    Luke 12:12  for the Holy Spirit will teach you in that very hour what you ought to say."

    According to the bible God the Father, God the Son, and God the Holy Spirit all have the same attributes.  Thus the term Trinity.  You dont have to accept the word trinity, you have to except what the bible says about God!
     


    Edited by OneWay - 28 January 2009 at 8:57am    ]]>     Wed, 28 Jan 2009 08:47:58 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=120679#120679     From where did the trinity teaching come? : Patty, That goes very much into... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=116787#116787 Author: Angela
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 04 December 2008 at 2:24pm

    Patty,

    That goes very much into the Milk before Meat Category.

    This thread is about the Trinity...which of course we do not believe in.

    It is very much boiled down to this... we are to only concern ourselves with what pertains to our Eternal Salvation.

    God, the Father, Heavenly Father, Allah, YHWH, Elohim, is the God of this World. No one else matters, no one else can be worshipped.

    If you want references.... You can look here.]]>     Thu, 04 Dec 2008 14:24:28 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=116787#116787     From where did the trinity teaching come? : Angela: I do not believe... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=116739#116739 Author: myahya
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 04 December 2008 at 2:14am

    Angela: I do not believe the infallibility of Prophets. Its not in my beliefsystem.

    I did not talk about infallibility of Prophets inmy last post. Regardless of infallibility of Mohammad s.a.w.a. or otherprophets, he is the last prophet as stated by Quran. Hence, any claim ofnew prophethood after him is not the truth.

    Edited by myahya - 04 December 2008 at 2:15am    ]]>     Thu, 04 Dec 2008 02:14:31 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=116739#116739     From where did the trinity teaching come? : Originally posted by AngelaAnd... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=116591#116591 Author: PattyaMainer
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 02 December 2008 at 2:00pm

    Originally posted by Angela

    And that is you belief and I respect it. I do not believe the infallibility of Prophets. Its not in my belief system. I was just answering a question by Nur.

    I would never expect a believing Muslim to suddenly change their mind about Muhammed (pbuh) being the Last Prophet.
     
    Angela,
     
    I totally respect your belief system too, as I do everyone here.  I have read that this is how you view "God", whom Mormons refer to as "Heavenly Father."  Can you elaborate and explain if this is your belief as a devout Mormon.  Thank you!
     

    MORMON HENOTHEISM

    Mormon theology belongs to the third category, the particular subset of polytheism called henotheism, while authentic Christian theology (like Judaism) is monotheistic. Mormons generally despise being called polytheists or henotheists, and claim to be monotheists on the grounds that they worship only one god ("Heavenly Father") and condemn the worship of other gods (in this world). But make no mistake, Mormons do believe in "plural gods" (just as they prefer the term "plural marriage" to "polygamy," Mormons prefer the term "plural gods" to "polytheism").

    The god Mormons worship with adoration is usually called "Heavenly Father," their version of God the Father. "Heavenly Father" is, according to Mormon theology, the maker and supreme god of this world (not to be confused with the way the term is used in 2Cor. 4:3-4). Other worlds have their own supreme gods, each worshipped with adoration by the faithful people of his own world. Moreover, the supreme god of each world is believed to have once been a human man in some other world, who worshipped his own "Heavenly Father" (and so on in infinite regress). It would be impossible to number the gods Mormons believe may exist in various worlds: "there is an infinite number of holy personages, drawn from worlds without number, who have passed on to exaltation and are thus gods" (Bruce McConkie, Mormon Doctrine, "Plurality of Gods").

    Recall the limitations of polytheists' gods mentioned above. They are usually composed of and limited by natural things like time, matter, and space, and are not therefore -properly speaking- "supernatural." This is certainly true of the gods Mormons believe in ("Heavenly Father," his superiors, peers, and subordinates). For example, Mormons believe that "Heavenly Father" has a resurrected material body, i.e. that he is at least partially composed of matter that existed before him. This further requires spatial limitation, for although Mormons profess that his influence is far-reaching, they believe he can only be in one place at one time. The world "Heavenly Father" has made was not created by his word from nothing, but organized out of pre-existing material (like a carpenter makes a chair out of wood). When Mormons use words like "eternal," "almighty," and "creator" to describe God, they do not mean the same thing Jews, Christians, and Muslims mean by those words.

    ]]>     Tue, 02 Dec 2008 14:00:15 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=116591#116591     From where did the trinity teaching come? : And that is you belief and I respect... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=116589#116589 Author: Angela
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 02 December 2008 at 1:03pm

    And that is you belief and I respect it. I do not believe the infallibility of Prophets. Its not in my belief system. I was just answering a question by Nur.

    I would never expect a believing Muslim to suddenly change their mind about Muhammed (pbuh) being the Last Prophet. ]]>     Tue, 02 Dec 2008 13:03:59 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=116589#116589     From where did the trinity teaching come? : &lt;&gt; /* Style... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=116586#116586 Author: myahya
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 02 December 2008 at 12:20pm




    Edited by myahya - 02 December 2008 at 12:25pm    ]]>     Tue, 02 Dec 2008 12:20:15 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=116586#116586     From where did the trinity teaching come? : The word messiah is very specific...... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=116572#116572 Author: Angela
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 02 December 2008 at 6:07am

    The word messiah is very specific...  It means the annointed one.

    The Messiah must fulfill certain criteria.

    He must be a direct descendant of King David.  (Dawood)

    He must be born of a virgin. (Isaiah 7:14)

    He must be of the Tribe of Judah.  (His mother must be Jewish. Genesis 49:10)

    Now, the Jews make this specific to these..

    1.   Mustbe a member of the tribe of Judah (Genesis 49:10)

    2.   Mustbe a direct descendent of both King David and King Solomon (l Chronicles 17:11; Psalm 89:29-38; Jeremiah   33:17; ll Samuel7:12-16; l Chronicles 22:10 and ll Chronicles 7:18)

    3.   Mustgather the Jewish people from exile and return them to Israel (Isaiah 27:12-13 & 11:12)

    4.   Mustrebuild the Jewish Temple (the 3rd Temple) (Micah 4:1)

    5.  Must bring in “world peace” (Isaiah 2:4; 11:6 & Micah 4:3)

               6.   Mustinfluence the entire world to acknowledge and serve the One God of
                            Israel     (Isaiah 11:9; Isaiah 40:5; andZephaniah 3:9)


    There is a very big difference between Christian belief and Jewish belief as to the Messiah.

    According to the Jews, Jesus does not meet the requirements for Messiah.  Messiah and Prophet are two different statuses in Judaism.

    Islam and Christianity acknowledge two facts about Jesus that the Jews do not. 

    1. He was born of a Virgin.
    2. He was the Messiah.

    This is according to the Quran and the New Testament of the Bible.

    Prophethood is a completely different calling.  Not to diminish the Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) in any way.

    I would like to state for Nur's sake that I hope she does not think that I have anything but love and respect for the Prophet Muhammed (pbuh)

    The people of the Middle East in the 7th Century were lost and divided.  Christians were fractured and fighting for the soul of Christ's followers.  The Jews were in diaspora and unable to return home and rebuild their temple.  The Pagans were wicked and lost, worshiping clay statues and sacrificing their daughters.

    Muhammed (pbuh) was sent to bring his people back to God.  To bring them away from their pagan ways and to act as a moral and spiritual anchorhead of which they could learn and copy.

    However, his job was not to combat the Dajjal, gather the lost tribes of Israel and rebuild the 3rd Temple.  That has yet to be done.  Jesus will return by the word of God in both the Bible and the words of Muhammed (pbuh).  If I remember its in the Hadith he prophesizes the return of Christ and not in the Quran itself. 

    One can ignore the Trinitarian teachings (which I personally do not believe) when looking at Jesus's status as the Messiah.  Its right there, black and white.... 

    If you are Muslim, you believe the Quran to be perfect and infallible.  Thus, the argument should really end with Ayah 3:45.
    ]]>     Tue, 02 Dec 2008 06:07:10 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=116572#116572     From where did the trinity teaching come? : Originally posted by Nur_Ilahi Originally... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=116523#116523 Author: honeto
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 01 December 2008 at 3:41pm

    Originally posted by Nur_Ilahi

    Originally posted by Angela

    However,

    Muhammed (pbuh) did not claim to be the Messiah and actually recognized Jesus as the Messiah and that he would return.

    Its not that Jesus is not the Messiah. Its how people interpret the prophecy of the Messiah (or Annointed one).

    The interpretations as to the purpose that Jesus played and who he was brought to vary. No matter which of the two faiths you believe, he was sent to be a messanger to the Jews. They rejected him and persecuted him, not heading his message. This is that beautiful thing that Muslims and Christians have in common. We both recognize the message and grace of Jesus.

    My own faith rejects the Trinity. However, we still recognize him as the Son of God. But, prophet, son of god or not... he is the Messiah... He will return...
     
    The Messiah was the Last Prophet sent by Allah as a perfect example of a human being. In him - Muhammad Rasulullah, we can find all the best quality of a man, that even Jesus cannot excel.
     
    Indeed Jesus will return, that we both concede. However whether he return as a Jew or as a Christian or as a Muslim, only time will tell.
     
    His coming to this world again, will be the point of reunion for all the Abrahamic faiths. The return of Isa alaihissalam will lead us all to worship the One Creator of The whole Universe, that created all faiths including you and me.
     
    Salam.
     
     
    Brother Nur,
    that's a new one for me to hear that our Prophet (pbuh) being refered as the Messiah!!
    I have never heard of this, is there anything to support that?
    However, in my understanding messiah is just another word to describe a prophet or a messanger or a guide God sent. I think all the prophets were 'appointed' and were the messiahs for their people as they healed their hearts and souls, or not?
     
    Hasan
    ]]> Mon, 01 Dec 2008 15:41:26 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=116523#116523 From where did the trinity teaching come? : Originally posted by Nur_Ilahi Perhaps... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=116487#116487 Author: Angela
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 01 December 2008 at 3:18am

    Originally posted by Nur_Ilahi

     
    Perhaps you can enlighten us Angela.


    1. Both were visited by an angel.  (The Angels were witnesses by their companions.)
    2. Both were given visions.
    3. Both were told that the true religion had been lost.
    4. Both were to restore the one true religion.
    5. Both revealed a book by the hand of God.  (While the Quran is a direct narrative, the Book of Mormon was written by previous Prophets, preserved by God and translated by the power of God through Joseph.  The Book of Moses was a direct revelation as were the Doctrine and Covenants.  Given all things, Joseph brough forth 4 books.)
    6. Both had minimal education or were illiterate.  (Muhammed ~pbuh~ was illiterate, Joseph had the equivalent of a 3rd grade education.)
    7. Both claimed the Bible was altered and corrupted and unreliable.
    8. Both were persecuted.  (Joseph sealed his revelations with his blood.)
    9. Both were good fathers and husbands.  (Both had children die and both were adoptive parents.)
    10. Both were kind, generous, hard working and humble.  (There are many tales for both of these men helping members of their community and giving selflessly to the more unfortunate.)
    11. Both were businessmen.
    12. Both had a strong wife who was one of their first believers and their strength.
    13. Both performed miracles by the power of God.  (Joseph healed the sick and raised a man from the dead (Brother Fordham).  Muhammed ~pbuh~ split the moon)
    14. Both were visited or saw Prophets from the past.  (For Joseph, a few of these manifestations were witnessed)
    15. Both banned the imbibing of wine and intoxicants, established strict dietary laws and restored a focus on chastity and marriage.
    16. Both were forced to flee their homes due to their beliefs and lead followers in battle against persecutors.
    17.  Both have claim of previous prophecies foretelling their arrival.


    There are more similarities when I break it down further.

    Both men were seen playing with children often and working hard on their neighbors homes and land, etc.   But these are the major ones I could think of...
    ]]>     Mon, 01 Dec 2008 03:18:41 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=116487#116487     From where did the trinity teaching come? : Originally posted by Nur_Ilahi The... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=116486#116486 Author: Angela
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 01 December 2008 at 3:02am

    Originally posted by Nur_Ilahi

     
    The Messiah was the Last Prophet sent by Allah as a perfect example of a human being. In him - Muhammad Rasulullah, we can find all the best quality of a man, that even Jesus cannot excel.
     
    Indeed Jesus will return, that we both concede. However whether he return as a Jew or as a Christian or as a Muslim, only time will tell.
     
    His coming to this world again, will be the point of reunion for all the Abrahamic faiths. The return of Isa alaihissalam will lead us all to worship the One Creator of The whole Universe, that created all faiths including you and me.
     
    Salam.


    You know, I looked for this and looked for this and only found Sunni websites that said that the Messiah is Jesus and not Muhammed.

    Such as

    http://www.islam.tc/prophecies/jesus.html
    http://www.islam-101.org/
    http://islam.thetruecall.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=23

    The Messiah will return, thus the Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) is not the Messiah.  Given Muslim belief, the Prophet Muhammed (pbuh)'s task is complete.  He said so himself in his last sermon.  That is why Muslims believe no further Prophets will be sent.  However, Jesus Christ is not finished.  In the last days, he must return and do battle with the Anti-Christ.  Therefore, he is the Messiah and not the Last Prophet.

    I have found this on many many many Muslim websites written by Muslim Scholars.

    Even your Quran contradicts you Nur....perhaps you need to study harder.

    003.045
    YUSUFALI:Behold! the angels said: "O Mary! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a Word from Him: his name will be Christ Jesus, the son of Mary, held inhonour in this world and the Hereafter and of (the company of) thosenearest to Allah;
    PICKTHAL:(And remember) when the angels said: O Mary! Lo! Allah giveth thee glad tidings of a word from him, whose name is the Messiah, Jesus, sonof Mary, illustrious in the world and the Hereafter, and one of thosebrought near (unto Allah).
    SHAKIR:When the angels said: O Marium, surely Allah gives you good news with a Word from Him (of one) whose name is the '. Messiah, Isa son of Marium, worthy of regard in this world and the hereafter and of those who are made near (to Allah).

    إِذْقَالَتِ الْمَلآئِكَةُ يَا مَرْيَمُ إِنَّ اللّهَ يُبَشِّرُكِ بِكَلِمَةٍمِّنْهُ اسْمُهُ الْمَسِيحُ عِيسَى ابْنُ مَرْيَمَ وَجِيهًا فِيالدُّنْيَا وَالآخِرَةِ وَمِنَ الْمُقَرَّبِينَ (3:45)
    ]]>     Mon, 01 Dec 2008 03:02:56 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=116486#116486     From where did the trinity teaching come? : Originally posted by Angela I... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=116361#116361 Author: Nur_Ilahi
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 28 November 2008 at 10:49pm

    Originally posted by Angela

    I doubt there is a man that can ever be like him.


    You would be surprised about the similarities between Muhammed (pbuh) and Brother Joseph. [/QUOTE]
     
    Perhaps you can enlighten us Angela.
    ]]>     Fri, 28 Nov 2008 22:49:09 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=116361#116361     From where did the trinity teaching come? : Originally posted by AngelaHowever,... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=116360#116360 Author: Nur_Ilahi
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 28 November 2008 at 10:47pm

    Originally posted by Angela

    However,

    Muhammed (pbuh) did not claim to be the Messiah and actually recognized Jesus as the Messiah and that he would return.

    Its not that Jesus is not the Messiah. Its how people interpret the prophecy of the Messiah (or Annointed one).

    The interpretations as to the purpose that Jesus played and who he was brought to vary. No matter which of the two faiths you believe, he was sent to be a messanger to the Jews. They rejected him and persecuted him, not heading his message. This is that beautiful thing that Muslims and Christians have in common. We both recognize the message and grace of Jesus.

    My own faith rejects the Trinity. However, we still recognize him as the Son of God. But, prophet, son of god or not... he is the Messiah... He will return...
     
    The Messiah was the Last Prophet sent by Allah as a perfect example of a human being. In him - Muhammad Rasulullah, we can find all the best quality of a man, that even Jesus cannot excel.
     
    Indeed Jesus will return, that we both concede. However whether he return as a Jew or as a Christian or as a Muslim, only time will tell.
     
    His coming to this world again, will be the point of reunion for all the Abrahamic faiths. The return of Isa alaihissalam will lead us all to worship the One Creator of The whole Universe, that created all faiths including you and me.
     
    Salam.
    ]]>     Fri, 28 Nov 2008 22:47:18 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=116360#116360     From where did the trinity teaching come? : Originally posted by PattyaMainer Originally... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=116185#116185 Author: honeto
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 26 November 2008 at 5:37pm

    Originally posted by PattyaMainer

    Originally posted by honeto

    Patty,

    one question for you, were the Jews or the people of the OT were expecting a Messiah to come or were they expecting God to come on earth? And if they were expecting God to come on earth can you referance it please.
    I want to know what is your understanding, as I know the asnwer of many of them.
     
    By the way 30 years is a lot of gap when it is a matter of word for word.
     
    Hasan
     
    Oh, Hasan, Josephus was alive before the Crucifixion....what I meant was he did not write about it until 30 years later.  He was most certainly alive at the time of Jesus though.
     
    I have known many Jews (and Muslims).  The Jewish people of the OT were told a Messiah would come to redeem them, to save them from their sins.  They were not expecting God to come down from Heaven.  They are still looking for the Messiah....the Chosen One.   Except for the Jews who have converted to Christianity that is.
     
    Patty
     
    Thanks Patty,
    for clearing the facts that a Messiah was expected, not God.
    And we, in Islam believe that too, that Jesus son of virgin Mary was the Messiah, and not God. Those we now call Jews reject him as such. For us, in Islam he is what he truly was, the Messiah, a prophet and servent of God.
    The Blessed Quran 61:6
    "And remember, Jesus, the son of Mary, said: "O Children of Israel! I am the messenger of Allah (sent) to you, confirming the Law (which came) before me, and giving Glad Tidings of a Messenger to come after me, whose name shall be Ahmad." But when he came to them with Clear Signs, they said, "this is evident sorcery!"
     
     
    Hasan
    ]]>     Wed, 26 Nov 2008 17:37:21 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=116185#116185     From where did the trinity teaching come? : Originally posted by AngelaHowever,... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=116181#116181 Author: PattyaMainer
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 26 November 2008 at 3:15pm

    Originally posted by Angela

    However,

    Muhammed (pbuh) did not claim to be the Messiah and actually recognized Jesus as the Messiah and that he would return.

    Its not that Jesus is not the Messiah. Its how people interpret the prophecy of the Messiah (or Annointed one).

    The interpretations as to the purpose that Jesus played and who he was brought to vary. No matter which of the two faiths you believe, he was sent to be a messanger to the Jews. They rejected him and persecuted him, not heading his message. This is that beautiful thing that Muslims and Christians have in common. We both recognize the message and grace of Jesus.

    My own faith rejects the Trinity. However, we still recognize him as the Son of God. But, prophet, son of god or not... he is the Messiah... He will return...
     
    There are many verses in the OT where the Jews describe the Messiah as Jesus, and did believe it was he.  Many Jews became Christians.  Right now I am just too weary to discuss or post the verses.....verses from the Jewish books as well.  Tomorrow is Thanksgiving and I am very busy.
     
    More later.
     
    Patty
    ]]>     Wed, 26 Nov 2008 15:15:27 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=116181#116181     From where did the trinity teaching come? : Originally posted by AngelaHowever,... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=116167#116167 Author: Mansoor_ali
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 26 November 2008 at 11:39am

    Originally posted by Angela

    However,

    Muhammed (pbuh) did not claim to be the Messiah and actually recognized Jesus as the Messiah and that he would return.

    Its not that Jesus is not the Messiah. Its how people interpret the prophecy of the Messiah (or Annointed one).

    The interpretations as to the purpose that Jesus played and who he was brought to vary. No matter which of the two faiths you believe, he was sent to be a messanger to the Jews. They rejected him and persecuted him, not heading his message. This is that beautiful thing that Muslims and Christians have in common. We both recognize the message and grace of Jesus.

    My own faith rejects the Trinity. However, we still recognize him as the Son of God. But, prophet, son of god or not... he is the Messiah... He will return...
     
     Then you must follow Muhammad(The last Prophet) because he is prophecised by Jesus Christ himself.
     
     The Bible's Last Prophet
     
     
    ]]>     Wed, 26 Nov 2008 11:39:25 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=116167#116167     From where did the trinity teaching come? : Originally posted by Nur_Ila... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=116166#116166 Author: Angela
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 26 November 2008 at 11:03am

    Originally posted by Nur_Ilahi

    Salallahualaihiwassalam.
     

    He was a great man with all the qualities of a leader.

    A loving husband, a devoted father, a doting grandfather, a good neighbour, a trustworthy friend, a wise teacher, a just judge, a humble and pious servant of God, a wonderful stateman, a brave warrior and many other traits of a human being.

     

    I doubt there is a man that can ever be like him.


    You would be surprised about the similarities between Muhammed (pbuh) and Brother Joseph. ]]>     Wed, 26 Nov 2008 11:03:57 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=116166#116166     From where did the trinity teaching come? : However, Muhammed (pbuh) did... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=116165#116165 Author: Angela
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 26 November 2008 at 11:02am

    However,

    Muhammed (pbuh) did not claim to be the Messiah and actually recognized Jesus as the Messiah and that he would return.

    Its not that Jesus is not the Messiah. Its how people interpret the prophecy of the Messiah (or Annointed one).

    The interpretations as to the purpose that Jesus played and who he was brought to vary. No matter which of the two faiths you believe, he was sent to be a messanger to the Jews. They rejected him and persecuted him, not heading his message. This is that beautiful thing that Muslims and Christians have in common. We both recognize the message and grace of Jesus.

    My own faith rejects the Trinity. However, we still recognize him as the Son of God. But, prophet, son of god or not... he is the Messiah... He will return...]]>     Wed, 26 Nov 2008 11:02:19 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=116165#116165     From where did the trinity teaching come? : Originally posted by AngelaActually... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=116142#116142 Author: Nur_Ilahi
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 26 November 2008 at 4:42am

    Originally posted by Angela

    Actually Patty,

    The Jewish interpretation of the Messianic Prophecies is that he will be a military leader who will free them from Oppression. It is Christianity that added the redemption from sin.

    Here is a quote from a Jewish Website....

    The Tanakh gives several specifications as to who the messiah will be. He will be a descendent of King David (2 Samuel 7:12-13; Jeremiah 23:5), observant of Jewish law (Isaiah 11:2-5), a righteous judge (Jeremiah 33:15), and a great military leader.

     
    The only person that suited the above description was MUHAMMAD Salallahualaihiwassalam.
     
    He was a great man with all the qualities of a leader.
    A loving husband, a devoted father, a doting grandfather, a good neighbour, a trustworthy friend, a wise teacher, a just judge, a humble and pious servant of God, a wonderful stateman, a brave warrior and many other traits of a human being.
     
    I doubt there is a man that can ever be like him.
    ]]>     Wed, 26 Nov 2008 04:42:27 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=116142#116142     From where did the trinity teaching come? : Actually Patty, The Jewish interpretation... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=116097#116097 Author: Angela
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 25 November 2008 at 11:30am

    Actually Patty,

    The Jewish interpretation of the Messianic Prophecies is that he will be a military leader who will free them from Oppression. It is Christianity that added the redemption from sin.

    Here is a quote from a Jewish Website....

    The Tanakh gives several specifications as to who the messiah will be. He will be a descendent of King David (2 Samuel 7:12-13; Jeremiah 23:5), observant of Jewish law (Isaiah 11:2-5), a righteous judge (Jeremiah 33:15), and a great military leader.

    ]]>     Tue, 25 Nov 2008 11:30:29 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=116097#116097     From where did the trinity teaching come? : Originally posted by honeto Patty, one... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=116020#116020 Author: PattyaMainer
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 24 November 2008 at 12:54pm

    Originally posted by honeto

    Patty,

    one question for you, were the Jews or the people of the OT were expecting a Messiah to come or were they expecting God to come on earth? And if they were expecting God to come on earth can you referance it please.
    I want to know what is your understanding, as I know the asnwer of many of them.
     
    By the way 30 years is a lot of gap when it is a matter of word for word.
     
    Hasan
     
    Oh, Hasan, Josephus was alive before the Crucifixion....what I meant was he did not write about it until 30 years later.  He was most certainly alive at the time of Jesus though.
     
    I have known many Jews (and Muslims).  The Jewish people of the OT were told a Messiah would come to redeem them, to save them from their sins.  They were not expecting God to come down from Heaven.  They are still looking for the Messiah....the Chosen One.   Except for the Jews who have converted to Christianity that is.
     
    Patty
    ]]>     Mon, 24 Nov 2008 12:54:00 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=116020#116020     From where did the trinity teaching come? : Patty, one question for you,... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=116018#116018 Author: honeto
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 24 November 2008 at 12:43pm

    Patty,

    one question for you, were the Jews or the people of the OT were expecting a Messiah to come or were they expecting God to come on earth? And if they were expecting God to come on earth can you referance it please.
    I want to know what is your understanding, as I know the asnwer of many of them.
     
    By the way 30 years is a lot of gap when it is a matter of word for word.
     
    Hasan


    Edited by honeto - 24 November 2008 at 12:43pm    ]]>     Mon, 24 Nov 2008 12:43:04 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=116018#116018     From where did the trinity teaching come? : Originally posted by PattyaMainer Originally... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=115954#115954 Author: PattyaMainer
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 23 November 2008 at 6:27pm

    Originally posted by PattyaMainer

    Originally posted by honeto

    Patty,
    thanks for your effort to clear things up. I have very basic funtamental difference of view on trinity.
    I do not believe Christ himself taught Trinity. As it is absent from any previous prophets' teachings and beliefs. I have asked this question to present form of those who Jesus is said to be, a jew. All previous scriptures lack this very important point or part about God claimed by Christians?
    God does not change in Godhead. God was and is One,  and that's what seams to be universal teachings of all the previous scriptures. This doctrine in my humble opinion if, can only be derived from NT which by the way due to its not so authentic history is I am reluctant to rely upon. It proves to be a new doctrine in terms of describing God, thus I completely disagree with it.
     
    In your description above: Jesus Christ the man you say is inferior to God. Isn't it the human form that is given the name Jesus Chirst to begin with. In other words you are saying that out of three parts of God in Godhead, one is called God, the other Jesus Christ, and the third, the Holy Ghost?
     
    Also, are you saying that Jesus Christ was not God when he was walking upon this earth according to your belief? I want to get this clear from you Patty before I procede. 
     
    Hasan
     
    My Dear Hasan,
     
    I will answer you tomorrow as best I can.  It is now midnight here in Maine, and I cannot hold my eyes open any longer.  I just don't want you to think I am avoiding the question.  Okay?  See you tomorrow.
     
    God bless,
    Patty
     

    Trinity: Webster’s dictionary gives the following definition of trinity: “The union of three divine persons (or hypostases), the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, in one divinity, so that all the three are one God as to substance, but three Persons (or hypostases as to individuality).” Synonyms sometimes used are triunity, trine, triality. The term “trinity” is formed from “tri,” three, and “nity,” unity. Triunity is a better term than “trinity” because it better expresses the idea of three in one. God is three in one. Hypostases is the plural of hypostasis which means “the substance, the underlying reality, or essence.”

    The doctrine of the trinity is truly beyond human comprehension or the limits of our finite minds, but it is nevertheless a vital truth of the Bible. It is a doctrine that is closely connected to other key doctrines like the deity of Christ and the Holy Spirit. In fact, our salvation is rooted in the mysterious nature of the Godhead who coexists as three distinct Persons all of whom are involved in our salvation in all its aspects, past, present, and future. It encompasses everything we know and practice as Christians—our sanctification, our fellowship, our prayer life, our Bible study, or our corporate worship. That this is true and a precious truth for us to rest in is evident in Paul’s closing benediction in 2 Corinthians 13:14 and in Peter’s salutation and doxology in 1 Peter 1:1-5.

    2 Cor. 13:14. The grace of the Lord Jesus Christ, and the love of God, and the fellowship of the Holy Spirit, be with you all.

    1 Peter 1:1-5. Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen 2 according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, by the sanctifying work of the Spirit, that you may obey Jesus Christ and be sprinkled with His blood: May grace and peace be yours in fullest measure. 3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 4 to obtain an inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled and will not fade away, reserved in heaven for you, 5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

    In I John there is this statement:
     
    In Heaven there are three who bear record, God the Father, The Word, the Holy Spirit, AND THESE THREE ARE ONE.
     
    Hasan, I am sure you have heard/read this before, but when St. Phillip asked Jesus to show him the Father, Jesus turned to him and said, Phillip, as much as you know me and still you have to ask....you have seen me, you have also seen the Father.....and Jesus also said, "the Father and I are ONE."  I am paraphrasing here.
     
    So it boils down to a matter of faith and belief....belief in the Holy Bible.  I have studied the Latin Vulgate and it specifically states much about the trinity.  No "trinity" the word is not used....but the meaning is there.  As you are most likely aware the Latin Vulgate is the earliest bible.  I have studied, and am a personal friend of a Jesuit priest who is a biblical scholar.  He has written books on Flavius Josephus and the Jewish Antiquities.  Josephus wrote about Jesus' crucifixion just 30 years after Jesus' death.  Although Josephus was a Jew, he believed (or so he stated) that Jesus was the messiah.
     
    I hope this is some help to you, or at least food for thought.  Please know that I believe with all my heart that all people who steadfastly and wholeheartedly attempt to do God's will shall one day see Him face to face in heaven.....the beatific vision.  You will surely be one of those, Hasan.
     
    God Bless,
    Patty
    ]]>     Sun, 23 Nov 2008 18:27:27 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=115954#115954     From where did the trinity teaching come? : Originally posted by honetoPatty,... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=115936#115936 Author: robin
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 23 November 2008 at 10:00am

    Originally posted by honeto

    Patty,
    I have very basic funtamental difference of view on trinity.
    I do not believe Christ himself taught Trinity. As it is absent from any previous prophets' teachings and beliefs. I have asked this question to present form of those who Jesus is said to be, a jew. All previous scriptures lack this very important point or part about God claimed by Christians?
    God does not change in Godhead. God was and is One,  and that's what seams to be universal teachings of all the previous scriptures. This doctrine in my humble opinion if, can only be derived from NT which by the way due to its not so authentic history is I am reluctant to rely upon. It proves to be a new doctrine in terms of describing God, thus I completely disagree with it.
     
    Hasan
     
    I know we differ in many thinks Hasan, but you are dead right in the above and you say just as The bible teaches.  The Bible disagrees with it as well!
     
    Deuteronomy 6:4
    "Listen, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah.
     
    Jesus never taught anything than what is above; "God is one"!


    Edited by robin - 23 November 2008 at 10:02am    ]]>     Sun, 23 Nov 2008 10:00:11 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=115936#115936     From where did the trinity teaching come? : Originally posted by honetoPatty,... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=115902#115902 Author: PattyaMainer
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 22 November 2008 at 9:03pm

    Originally posted by honeto

    Patty,
    thanks for your effort to clear things up. I have very basic funtamental difference of view on trinity.
    I do not believe Christ himself taught Trinity. As it is absent from any previous prophets' teachings and beliefs. I have asked this question to present form of those who Jesus is said to be, a jew. All previous scriptures lack this very important point or part about God claimed by Christians?
    God does not change in Godhead. God was and is One,  and that's what seams to be universal teachings of all the previous scriptures. This doctrine in my humble opinion if, can only be derived from NT which by the way due to its not so authentic history is I am reluctant to rely upon. It proves to be a new doctrine in terms of describing God, thus I completely disagree with it.
     
    In your description above: Jesus Christ the man you say is inferior to God. Isn't it the human form that is given the name Jesus Chirst to begin with. In other words you are saying that out of three parts of God in Godhead, one is called God, the other Jesus Christ, and the third, the Holy Ghost?
     
    Also, are you saying that Jesus Christ was not God when he was walking upon this earth according to your belief? I want to get this clear from you Patty before I procede. 
     
    Hasan
     
    My Dear Hasan,
     
    I will answer you tomorrow as best I can.  It is now midnight here in Maine, and I cannot hold my eyes open any longer.  I just don't want you to think I am avoiding the question.  Okay?  See you tomorrow.
     
    God bless,
    Patty
    ]]>     Sat, 22 Nov 2008 21:03:21 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=115902#115902     From where did the trinity teaching come? : Patty, thanks for your effort... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=115896#115896 Author: honeto
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 22 November 2008 at 6:50pm

    Patty,
    thanks for your effort to clear things up. I have very basic funtamental difference of view on trinity.
    I do not believe Christ himself taught Trinity. As it is absent from any previous prophets' teachings and beliefs. I have asked this question to present form of those who Jesus is said to be, a jew. All previous scriptures lack this very important point or part about God claimed by Christians?
    God does not change in Godhead. God was and is One,  and that's what seams to be universal teachings of all the previous scriptures. This doctrine in my humble opinion if, can only be derived from NT which by the way due to its not so authentic history is I am reluctant to rely upon. It proves to be a new doctrine in terms of describing God, thus I completely disagree with it.
     
    In your description above: Jesus Christ the man you say is inferior to God. Isn't it the human form that is given the name Jesus Chirst to begin with. In other words you are saying that out of three parts of God in Godhead, one is called God, the other Jesus Christ, and the third, the Holy Ghost?
     
    Also, are you saying that Jesus Christ was not God when he was walking upon this earth according to your belief? I want to get this clear from you Patty before I procede. 
     
    Hasan


    Edited by honeto - 22 November 2008 at 6:54pm    ]]>     Sat, 22 Nov 2008 18:50:23 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=115896#115896     From where did the trinity teaching come? : Originally posted by honeto Originally... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=115810#115810 Author: PattyaMainer
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 21 November 2008 at 6:17am

    Originally posted by honeto

    Originally posted by PattyaMainer

    Robin, your "bible" quotes are from JW scripts going back only 100-150 years.  Hardly worth noting.  Thanks, but I'll stay with the longstanding, scholarly, historically correct bibles from the days shortly after Our Lord walked this earth. 
     

    Is Christ God?



    1. "Christ is God’s Son and is inferior to him." Given in support of this position are these verses: "And lo, a voice from heaven, saying, ‘This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased’" (Matt. 3:17). "I proceeded and came forth from God" (John 8:42). "If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I" (John 14:28). "I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God" (John 20:17). "The head of every man is Christ, the head of a woman is her husband, and the head of Christ is God" (1 Cor. 11:3). "When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things under him, that God may be everything to every one" (1 Cor. 15:28).

    At first glance these citations seem imposing. It does seem that Christ is inferior to God the Father in some sense. But the New Testament also has verses which clearly show Christ and the Father to be equals. For example, there is John 10:30: "I and the Father are one." Or, "He who has seen me has seen the Father" (John 14:9). Or, "All that the Father has is mine" (John 16:15). Or, "The Jews sought all the more to kill him, because he not only broke the Sabbath but also called God his Father, making himself equal with God" (John 5:18). Or, "[Jesus], though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped" (Phil. 2:6). These seem to contradict the other verses.

    How do we make sense of all this? By keeping in mind that Jesus is both God and man. Some verses, such as these last five, refer exclusively to his Godhead. Others refer to his humanity. So far as he is God, Jesus is equal to the Father. Christ’s human nature, though, is created and is therefore inferior to the Father. But to focus on this aspect of Christ to the exclusion of his divine nature is a gross misunderstanding of who and what the Bible says Jesus Christ is. Other verses cited by the Witnesses, such as Matthew 3:17, show merely that Christ is God’s Son, not that he is inferior (in fact, John 5:18 shows that being God’s Son is being equal to God).

    http://www.catholic.com/library/distinctive_beliefs_of_jehovahs.asp
     
    Have a good day,
    Patty
     
    Patty,
    your explaination of Christian doctrine is a classical example of confused and opposite statments.
     
    At first you do admit Christ being inferior to God (you call the Father) when you say and quote, "for the Father is greater than I (John 14:28)."
    In a classic flip at the end you say,"not that he is inferior (in fact, John 5:18 shows that being God’s Son is being equal to God). "
    A Christian phenomenon only themselves can understand and believe, and a Christian dilema only we Muslims can see.
     
    I hope you see what I mean, and not take it as an offence. You cannot be equal, if you are inferior or someone is greater than you!
     
    See the thing is that one cannot go to far with "God having a son" before we get tangled into other objections beside the one above.
    This again is for understanding and no offence is meant:
    cow is born to cow,  duck is born to duck, cat is born to  cat, if we assume for a second (God to have an off spring) God is born to God!
    So, yes if cat and (son) cat is same, then God and son God is same.
     
    I would like to hear what yuo have to say.
    Hasan
     
    Hello Hasan,
     
    I do not take offence from you, not ever. I must say I am somewhat puzzled as to why you care what I believe or what I have to say......since you obviously disagree so heartily with my beliefs. lolol
     
    That being said, I will try again to explain my Catholic Christian point of view.
     
    You need to read this very carefully:
     
    "So far as he is God, Jesus is equal to the Father. Christ’s human nature, though, is created and is therefore inferior to the Father."
     
    Okay, so what does this mean?  It refers to God the Father sending Jesus as His son to earth in human form, and it is his human form that is inferior to God the father.  Not Jesus Christ Himself, but the human form he took on while he ministered to the multitudes while he was on earth for some 33 years. 
     
    Hasan, it takes a LOT of study of the Scriptures and the Holy Gospels to find the truth....to finally see it and embrace it.  I am so inept at trying to show this to you.  But more than anything it takes great faith to know that our precious God loves us and knows we are struggling to do His will in our lives.  He will help us,  if we allow him, to see the Truth.  I have great faith, if nothing else, that He loves even me (and I know I am not worthy of it because I have sinned greatly in my life).  What I love about God is that, unlike people, He not only forgives our sins...he also forgets them. 
     
    I hope this explains that one aspect of the Holy Trinity.  We have a little hymn we sing and I love the one line which goes,
     
    "praise the Holy Trinity, UNIDIVIDED UNITY,......
     
    Peace to you, Hasan,
    Patty
    ]]>     Fri, 21 Nov 2008 06:17:54 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=115810#115810     From where did the trinity teaching come? : hey everyone, I know I dropped... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=115784#115784 Author: thomasd
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 20 November 2008 at 6:23pm

    hey everyone, I know I dropped out of this discussion  a while back, but I finally managed to find what are likely the roots of the belief in the trinity, and its definitely from the Jewish religion, not pagan or greek as some in this thread have claimed.

    this page: http://www.layevangelism.com/qreference/chapter10e.htm

    has a lot of discussion and references. (don't mind the atrocious color scheme!)
    ]]>     Thu, 20 Nov 2008 18:23:14 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=115784#115784     From where did the trinity teaching come? : Originally posted by PattyaMainerRobin,... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=114469#114469 Author: honeto
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 28 October 2008 at 5:12pm

    Originally posted by PattyaMainer

    Robin, your "bible" quotes are from JW scripts going back only 100-150 years.  Hardly worth noting.  Thanks, but I'll stay with the longstanding, scholarly, historically correct bibles from the days shortly after Our Lord walked this earth. 
     

    Is Christ God?



    1. "Christ is God’s Son and is inferior to him." Given in support of this position are these verses: "And lo, a voice from heaven, saying, ‘This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased’" (Matt. 3:17). "I proceeded and came forth from God" (John 8:42). "If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I" (John 14:28). "I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God" (John 20:17). "The head of every man is Christ, the head of a woman is her husband, and the head of Christ is God" (1 Cor. 11:3). "When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things under him, that God may be everything to every one" (1 Cor. 15:28).

    At first glance these citations seem imposing. It does seem that Christ is inferior to God the Father in some sense. But the New Testament also has verses which clearly show Christ and the Father to be equals. For example, there is John 10:30: "I and the Father are one." Or, "He who has seen me has seen the Father" (John 14:9). Or, "All that the Father has is mine" (John 16:15). Or, "The Jews sought all the more to kill him, because he not only broke the Sabbath but also called God his Father, making himself equal with God" (John 5:18). Or, "[Jesus], though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped" (Phil. 2:6). These seem to contradict the other verses.

    How do we make sense of all this? By keeping in mind that Jesus is both God and man. Some verses, such as these last five, refer exclusively to his Godhead. Others refer to his humanity. So far as he is God, Jesus is equal to the Father. Christ’s human nature, though, is created and is therefore inferior to the Father. But to focus on this aspect of Christ to the exclusion of his divine nature is a gross misunderstanding of who and what the Bible says Jesus Christ is. Other verses cited by the Witnesses, such as Matthew 3:17, show merely that Christ is God’s Son, not that he is inferior (in fact, John 5:18 shows that being God’s Son is being equal to God).

    http://www.catholic.com/library/distinctive_beliefs_of_jehovahs.asp
     
    Have a good day,
    Patty
     
    Patty,
    your explaination of Christian doctrine is a classical example of confused and opposite statments.
     
    At first you do admit Christ being inferior to God (you call the Father) when you say and quote, "for the Father is greater than I (John 14:28)."
    In a classic flip at the end you say,"not that he is inferior (in fact, John 5:18 shows that being God’s Son is being equal to God). "
    A Christian phenomenon only themselves can understand and believe, and a Christian dilema only we Muslims can see.
     
    I hope you see what I mean, and not take it as an offence. You cannot be equal, if you are inferior or someone is greater than you!
     
    See the thing is that one cannot go to far with "God having a son" before we get tangled into other objections beside the one above.
    This again is for understanding and no offence is meant:
    cow is born to cow,  duck is born to duck, cat is born to  cat, if we assume for a second (God to have an off spring) God is born to God!
    So, yes if cat and (son) cat is same, then God and son God is same.
     
    I would like to hear what yuo have to say.
    Hasan


    Edited by honeto - 28 October 2008 at 5:30pm    ]]>     Tue, 28 Oct 2008 17:12:32 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=114469#114469     From where did the trinity teaching come? : Originally posted by PattyaMainerRobin,... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=114239#114239 Author: robin
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 25 October 2008 at 7:42am

    Originally posted by PattyaMainer

    Robin, your "bible" quotes are from JW scripts going back only 100-150 years.  Hardly worth noting.  Thanks, but I'll stay with the longstanding, scholarly, historically correct bibles from the days shortly after Our Lord walked this earth. 
     

    Is Christ God?



    1. "Christ is God’s Son and is inferior to him." Given in support of this position are these verses: "And lo, a voice from heaven, saying, ‘This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased’" (Matt. 3:17). "I proceeded and came forth from God" (John 8:42). "If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I" (John 14:28). "I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God" (John 20:17). "The head of every man is Christ, the head of a woman is her husband, and the head of Christ is God" (1 Cor. 11:3). "When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things under him, that God may be everything to every one" (1 Cor. 15:28).

    At first glance these citations seem imposing. It does seem that Christ is inferior to God the Father in some sense. But the New Testament also has verses which clearly show Christ and the Father to be equals. For example, there is John 10:30: "I and the Father are one." Or, "He who has seen me has seen the Father" (John 14:9). Or, "All that the Father has is mine" (John 16:15). Or, "The Jews sought all the more to kill him, because he not only broke the Sabbath but also called God his Father, making himself equal with God" (John 5:18). Or, "[Jesus], though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped" (Phil. 2:6). These seem to contradict the other verses.

    How do we make sense of all this? By keeping in mind that Jesus is both God and man. Some verses, such as these last five, refer exclusively to his Godhead. Others refer to his humanity. So far as he is God, Jesus is equal to the Father. Christ’s human nature, though, is created and is therefore inferior to the Father. But to focus on this aspect of Christ to the exclusion of his divine nature is a gross misunderstanding of who and what the Bible says Jesus Christ is. Other verses cited by the Witnesses, such as Matthew 3:17, show merely that Christ is God’s Son, not that he is inferior (in fact, John 5:18 shows that being God’s Son is being equal to God).

    http://www.catholic.com/library/distinctive_beliefs_of_jehovahs.asp
     
    Have a good day,
    Patty
     

    “ONE” thing, as in harmony or unity, or person as one being?

     

    John 10:30 . . .I and the Father are one.”

     

    Example of the followers of Jesus being “one” with him and the God.

     

    John 17:20-26 . . .“I make request, not concerning these only, but also concerning those putting faith in me through their word; 21 in order that they may all be one, just as you, Father, are in union with me and I am in union with you, that they also may be in union with us, in order that the world may believe that you sent me forth. 22 Also, I have given them the glory that you have given me, in order that they may be one just as we are one. 23 I in union with them and you in union with me, in order that they may be perfected into one, that the world may have the knowledge that you sent me forth and that you loved them just as you loved me. 24 Father, as to what you have given me, I wish that, where I am, they also may be with me, in order to behold my glory that you have given me, because you loved me before the founding of the world. 25 Righteous Father, the world has, indeed, not come to know you; but I have come to know you, and these have come to know that you sent me forth. 26 And I have made your name known to them and will make it known, in order that the love with which you loved me may be in them and I in union with them.”

     

    1 John 1:3    that which we have seen and heard we are reporting also to YOU, that YOU too may be having a sharing with us. Furthermore, this sharing of ours is with the Father and with his Son Jesus Christ.

     

    1 John 3:24   Moreover, he who observes his commandments remains in union with him, and he in union with such one; and by this we gain the knowledge that he is remaining in union with us, owing to the spirit which he gave us.

     

     

    In the above we see that “one” refers to a unity and not as suggested by some as one person as not only are Jesus and Jehovah said to be “one” but also Jesus disciples are INCLUDED in that “one” as John 17:20 say “those putting faith in me” so the oneness spoken of included all Jesus faithful followers and not just him and his Father.

     

    ]]>     Sat, 25 Oct 2008 07:42:12 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=114239#114239     From where did the trinity teaching come? : Response to PattyaMainerPattyaMainer... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=112657#112657 Author: Mansoor_ali
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 01 October 2008 at 2:59pm


     Response to PattyaMainer

     PattyaMainer said:
     ...But the New Testament also has verses which clearly show Christ and theFather to be equals. For example, there is John 10:30: "I and theFather are one."

     My Response:
     John 10:30 does not prove any divinity of Christ.Here is response by your own christian brothers.

     PattyaMainer said:
     Or, "He who has seen me has seen the Father" (John 14:9)

     My Response:
     Here is response by brother Shabir Ally regarding John 14:9

     In John 14:9 Jesus (peace beupon him) is quoted as saying: “Whoever has seen me has seen the Father.” This is often misunderstood to mean that Jesus is God.  But Jesus clearly saidthat no one has seen God at any time (John 5:37).  Those who say that Jesus is God, are disagreeing with what Jesus himself said.  If Jesus wasGod why would he say to the people looking at him that they never saw God?  And whywould the author of the 1st Letter of John in the Bible, writing some seventy years afterJesus was taken up, say that no one had ever seen God (1John 4:12) although he knew thatmultitudes had already seen Jesus?  The meaning of John 14:9 is not that Jesus isGod, but that by knowing Jesus, one gets to know God, since Jesus teaches about God. This meaning is confirmed by John 1:18 where the writer says that no one had everseen God, but Jesus had made God known to the people.  In the 17th Chapter of thesame Gospel, Jesus declared that eternal life means knowing that the Father whom Jesusworshipped is the only true God and that Jesus is the Messiah who was sent by God. (Is Jesus God? The Bible Says No!)

         PattyaMainer said:
     Or, "All that the Father has is mine" (John 16:15).

     My Response:
     It simply proves that Jesus was GIVEN power and authority,he did not own it.

     As we all know, God isall-powerful and is independent, he needs no help from anybody. However so thisis not the case with Jesus, unlike God, Jesus needs help from God, unlike God,Jesus does not own any power or
    any authority, rather it is given to him fromGod.

    Jhn 13:3  Jesus knowing that theFather had given all things into his hands, and that he was come from God,and went to God;

    John 17:6-8: 6 I have manifested thy nameunto the men which thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest themme; andthey have kept thy word. 7 Now they have known that ALL THINGS whatsoever thou hast given meare of thee. 8 For I have given unto them the words which thou gavest me; and they have received them, and have knownsurely that I came out from thee, and they have believed that thou didst sendme

    So as we can see,Jesus GIVEN everything he had! This all included miracle, doctrine etc.Basically Jesus did not do anything of his own, he never performed a miracle byhis own power, he was given the miracle. He nevertaught anything of his own, rather he was taught byGod and spoke what God told him to speak.

    Jhn 7:16 Jesus answered them, and said, My doctrine is not mine, but his that sentme

    Jhn 12:49  For I have not spokenof myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment,what I should say, and what I should speak.

    Jhn 8:26  I have many things to say andto judge of you: but he that sent me is true; and I speak to theworld those things which I have heard of him.

    Jhn 14:24  He that lovethme not keepeth not my sayings: and the wordwhich ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

    So everything Jesushad was from God, from the Gospel to his miracles. Godneeds no one to give him power, God needs no one to tell him what to do, therefore Jesus is not God.

     PattyaMainer said:
     Or, "The Jews sought all the more to kill him, becausehe not only broke the Sabbath but also called God his Father, making himselfequal with God" (John 5:18).

     My Response:
     Already addressed here.

     PattyaMainer said:
     Or, "[Jesus], though he was in the form of God, did notcount equality with God a thing to be grasped" (Phil. 2:6).

     My Response:
     Same click here and see the response.

     PattyaMainer said:

      These seem to contradict the other verses.

     How do we make sense of all this? By keeping in mind that Jesus is both God andman. Some verses, such as these last five, refer exclusively to his Godhead.Others refer to his humanity. So far as he is God, Jesus is equal to theFather. Christ’s human nature, though, is created and is therefore inferior tothe Father. But to focus on this aspect of Christ to the exclusion of hisdivine nature is a gross misunderstanding of who and what the Bible says JesusChrist is.

     My Response:

     Here is my CHALLENGE to you:
     Can you bring me the verse where Jesus claims to have dual natures i.e. fully man and fully God?

     PattyaMainer said:

     Other verses cited by the Witnesses, such as Matthew 3:17,show merely that Christ is God’s Son, not that he is inferior (in fact, John 5:18 shows that being God’s Son is being equalto God).

     My Response:

     Matthew 3 (King James Version)

    17And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This ismy beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

    THE MEANING OF THE SON OF GOD

     Taken from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Son%5Fof%5FGod

     In the Tanakh

    In the Tanakh,the phrase "sons of god" has multiple meanings:

    • The Hebrew phrase Benei Elohim, often translated as "The Sons of God", describes angels, demigods or immensely powerful human beings. See Genesis 6:2-4. Many Bible scholars believe that this is a reference to pre-Biblical near-eastern mythology.
    • It is used to denote a human judge or ruler (Ps. lxxxii. 6, "children of the Most High"; in many passages "gods" and "judges" seem to be equations); and to the real or ideal king over Israel (II Sam. vii. 14, with reference to David and his dynasty; comp. Ps. lxxxix. 27, 28).
    • The phrases "sons of God" and "children of God" are applied to Israel as a people (comp. Ex. iv. 22 and Hos. xi. 1), the Jewish people, and also to all members of the human race.

    In the Tanakh theterm does not connote any form of physical descent from, or essential unity with, God. TheHebrew idiom conveys an expression of godlikeness (see Godliness).

    In Judaismthe term "son of God" is rarely used in the sense of "messiah."

    Takenfrom http://www.m-w.com/cgi-bin/dictionary?book=Dictionary&va=son+of+God

     son of God

    One entry found for son of God.

    <> < name="hdwd" value="son of God" ="">< name="listword" value="son of God" ="">< name="book" value="Dictionary" ="">
    Main Entry: son of God
    1 often capitalized S : a superhuman or divine being (as an angel)
    2 capitalized S : MESSIAH 1
    3 : a person established in the love of God by divine promise

    So note, the term son of Goddoes not mean God. As you can see, Jews had already been using this term, andthey never took it to mean God now did they?

    Secondly, Jesus was sent tothese very same Jews, so hence when Jesus called himself the son of God, he wasdefintly referring to the same definition the Jewshad, which is that the son of God does not mean God, and that it just meanssomeone special or someone in power.


     

     


     



     

     



     
     
     

     
     

    ]]>     Wed, 01 Oct 2008 14:59:47 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=112657#112657     From where did the trinity teaching come? : Robin, your &#034;bible&#034;... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=112535#112535 Author: PattyaMainer
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 29 September 2008 at 3:58pm

    Robin, your "bible" quotes are from JW scripts going back only 100-150 years.  Hardly worth noting.  Thanks, but I'll stay with the longstanding, scholarly, historically correct bibles from the days shortly after Our Lord walked this earth. 
     

    Is Christ God?



    1. "Christ is God’s Son and is inferior to him." Given in support of this position are these verses: "And lo, a voice from heaven, saying, ‘This is my beloved Son, with whom I am well pleased’" (Matt. 3:17). "I proceeded and came forth from God" (John 8:42). "If you loved me, you would have rejoiced, because I go to the Father; for the Father is greater than I" (John 14:28). "I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God" (John 20:17). "The head of every man is Christ, the head of a woman is her husband, and the head of Christ is God" (1 Cor. 11:3). "When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things under him, that God may be everything to every one" (1 Cor. 15:28).

    At first glance these citations seem imposing. It does seem that Christ is inferior to God the Father in some sense. But the New Testament also has verses which clearly show Christ and the Father to be equals. For example, there is John 10:30: "I and the Father are one." Or, "He who has seen me has seen the Father" (John 14:9). Or, "All that the Father has is mine" (John 16:15). Or, "The Jews sought all the more to kill him, because he not only broke the Sabbath but also called God his Father, making himself equal with God" (John 5:18). Or, "[Jesus], though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped" (Phil. 2:6). These seem to contradict the other verses.

    How do we make sense of all this? By keeping in mind that Jesus is both God and man. Some verses, such as these last five, refer exclusively to his Godhead. Others refer to his humanity. So far as he is God, Jesus is equal to the Father. Christ’s human nature, though, is created and is therefore inferior to the Father. But to focus on this aspect of Christ to the exclusion of his divine nature is a gross misunderstanding of who and what the Bible says Jesus Christ is. Other verses cited by the Witnesses, such as Matthew 3:17, show merely that Christ is God’s Son, not that he is inferior (in fact, John 5:18 shows that being God’s Son is being equal to God).

    http://www.catholic.com/library/distinctive_beliefs_of_jehovahs.asp
     
    Have a good day,
    Patty
    ]]>     Mon, 29 Sep 2008 15:58:14 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=112535#112535     From where did the trinity teaching come? : Originally posted by PattyaMainer Originally... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=112342#112342 Author: robin
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 26 September 2008 at 2:29pm

    Originally posted by PattyaMainer

    Originally posted by robin

    [QUOTE=minuteman] 
     robin, you have again a long winding lecture about Jesus is God or not. In the end you have said:
     
     

    So we can ask again, who is Jesus talking about, as it cannot be himself"  He is talking about Almighty God, thus Jesus cannot be Almighty God!

     Do we understand that Jesus is not God or Jesus is not Almighty God. What is the opinion (short reply) of the YW's (Ya Huwa's witnesses). As you know, there is only one God. We cannot have an Almighty God and a less mighty God.

    John Ch. 1:1-2 talks of Jesus in his heavenly postion next the God Almighty Jehovah and he is called:-
     
    John 1:1-2
    In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.
     
    A subordinate divine (heavenly) being next to the Almighty God!
     
    "A" God, Robin?????  Absolutely incorrect in all Bibles, except perhaps whatever you're reading from!!
     
    Here is what the true Bibles say:
     
     [Quote]
     
     
    Yes "a god" NOT "The God" or The Almighty!
     

    The following is a list of variant translations of John 1:1:

    Interlineary Word for Word English Translation-Emphatic Diaglott, "In a beginning was the Word, and the Word was with the God, and a god was the Word."

    Edward Harwood, H KAINH DIAQHKH. The New Testament, collated with the most approved manuscripts; with select notes in English, critical and explanatory, and references to those authors who have best illustrated the sacred writings. To which are added, a Catalogue of the principal Editions of the Greek Testament; and a List of the most esteemed Commentators and critics. London, 1776, 2 vols; 2nd ed. 1784, 2 vols. 1768, "and was himself a divine person"

    Newcome, 1808, "and the word was a god"

    Crellius,as quoted in The New Testament in an Improved Version "the Word was God's"

    La Bible du Centenaire, L’Evangile selon Jean, by Maurice Goguel,1928: "and the Word was a divine being."

    John Samuel Thompson, The Montessoran; or The Gospel History According to the Four Evangelists, Baltimore; published by the translator, 1829, "the Logos was a god

    Goodspeed's An American Translation, 1939, "the Word was divine

    Revised Version-Improved and Corrected, "the word was a god."

    Prof. Felix Just, S.J. - Loyola Marymount University, "and god[-ly/-like] was the Word."

    The Four Gospels—A New Translation, by Professor Charles Cutler Torrey, Second Edition, 1947, "the Word was god

    New English Bible, 1961, "what God was,the Word was"

    Moffatt's The Bible, 1972, "the Logos was divine"

    International English Bible-Extreme New Testament, 2001, "the Word was God*[ftn. or Deity, Divine, which is a better translation, because the Greek definite article is not present before this Greek word]

    Reijnier Rooleeuw, M.D. -The New Testament of Our Lord Jesus Christ, translated from the Greek, 1694, "and the Word was a god"

    Simple English Bible, "and the Message was Deity"

    Hermann Heinfetter, A Literal Translation of the New Testament,1863, [A]s a god the Command was"

    Abner Kneeland-The New Testament in Greek and English, 1822, "The Word was a God" Robert Young, LL.D. (Concise Commentary on the Holy Bible [Grand Rapids: Baker, n.d.], 54). 1885, "[A]nd a God (i.e. a Divine Being) was the Word"

    Belsham N.T. 1809 "the Word was a god"

    Leicester Ambrose, The Final Theology, Volume 1, New York, New York; M.B. Sawyer and Company, 1879, "And the logos was a god"

    Charles A.L. Totten, The Gospel of History, 1900, "the Word was Deistic [=The Word was Godly]

    J.N. Jannaris, Zeitschrift fur die Newtestameutlich Wissencraft, (German periodical) 1901, [A]nd was a god"

    International Bible Translators N.T. 1981 "In the beginning there was the Message. The Message was with God. The Message was deity."

    Samuel Clarke, M.A., D.D., rector of St. James, Westminster, A Paraphrase on the Gospel of John, London "[A] Divine Person."

    Joseph Priestley, LL.D., F.R.S. (in A Familiar Illustration of Certain Passages of Scripture Relating to The Power of Man to do the Will of God, Original Sin, Election and Reprobation, The Divinity of Christ; And, Atonement for Sin by the Death of Christ [Philadelphia: Thomas Dobson, 1794], 37). "a God"

    Lant Carpenter, LL.D (in Unitarianism in the Gospels [London: C. Stower, 1809], 156). "a God"

    Andrews Norton, D.D. (in A Statement of Reasons For Not Believing the Doctrines of Trinitarians [Cambridge: Brown, Shattuck, and Company, 1833], 74). "a god"

    Paul Wernle, Professor Extraordinary of Modern Church History at the University of Basil (in The Beginnings of Christianity, vol. 1, The Rise of Religion [1903], 16). "a God" "At the beginning of Creation, there dwelt with God a mighty spirit, the Marshal, who produced all things in their order."

    21st Century NT Free "and the [Marshal] [Word] was a god." 21st Century Literal

    George William Horner, The Coptic Version of the New Testament, 1911, [A]nd (a) God was the word"

    Ernest Findlay Scott, The Literature of the New Testament, New York, Columbia University Press, 1932, "[A]nd the Word was of divine nature"

    James L. Tomanec, The New Testament of our Lord and Savior Jesus Anointed, 1958, [T]he Word was a God"

    Philip Harner, JBL, Vol. 92, 1974, "The Word had the same nature as God"

    Maximilian Zerwich S.J./Mary Grosvenor, 1974, "The Word was divine"

    Siegfried Schulz, Das Evangelium nach Johannes, 1975, "And a god (or, of a divine kind) was the Word"

    Translator's NT, 1973, "The Word was with God and shared his nature ...with footnote, "There is a distinction in the Greek here between 'with God' and 'God.' In the forst instance, the article is used and this makes the reference specific. In the second instance there is not article, and it is difficult to believe that the omission is not significant. In effect it gives an adjectival quality to the second use of Theos (God) so that the phrae means 'The Word was divine'."

    William Barclay's The New Testament, 1976, "the nature of the Word was the same as the nature of God"

    Johannes Schneider, Das Evangelium nach Johannes, 1978, "and godlike sort was the Logos

    Schonfield's The Original New Testament, 1985, "the Word was divine

    Revised English Bible, 1989, "what God was, the Word was

    Scholar's Version-The Five Gospels, 1993, "The Divine word and wisdom was there with God, and it was what God was

    J. Madsen, New Testament A Rendering , 1994, "the Word was a divine Being"

    Jurgen Becker, Das Evangelium nach Johannes, 1979, "a God/god was the Logos/logos"

    Curt Stage, The New Testament, 1907, "The Word/word was itself a divine Being/being."

    Bohmer, 1910, "It was strongly linked to God, yes itself divine Being/being"

    Das Neue Testament, by Ludwig Thimme, 1919, "God of Kind/kind was the Word/word"

    Baumgarten et al, 1920, "God (of Kind/kind) was the Logos/logos"

    Holzmann, 1926, "ein Gott war der Gedanke" [a God/god was the Thought/thought]

    Friedriche Rittelmeyer, 1938, "itself a God/god was the Word/word"

    Lyder Brun (Norw. professor of NT theology), 1945, "the Word was of divine kind"

    Fredrich Pfaefflin, The New Testament, 1949, "was of divine Kind/kind"

    Albrecht, 1957, "godlike Being/being had the Word/word"

    Smit, 1960, "the word of the world was a divine being"

    Menge, 1961, "God(=godlike Being/being) was the Word/word"

    Haenchen, 1980, "God (of Kind/kind) was the Logos/logos" [as mentioned in William Loader's The Christology of the Fourth Gospel, p. 155 cf. p.260]

    Die Bibel in heutigem Deutsch, 1982, "He was with God and in all like God"

    Haenchen (tr. By R. Funk), 1984, "divine (of the category divinity)was the Logos"

    Johannes Schulz, 1987, "a God/god (or: God/god of Kind/kind) was the Word/word." [As mentioned in William Loader's The Christology of the Fourth Gospel, p. 155 cf. p.260]

    William Temple, Archbishop of York, Readings in St. John's Gospel, London, Macmillan & Co.,1933, "And the Word was divine."

    John Crellius, Latin form of German, The 2 Books of John Crellius Fancus, Touching One God the Father, 1631, "The Word of Speech was a God"

    Greek Orthodox /Arabic Calendar, incorporating portions of the 4 Gospels, Greek Orthodox Patriarchy or Beirut, May, 1983, "the word was with Allah[God] and the word was a god"

    Ervin Edward Stringfellow (Prof. of NT Language and Literature/Drake University, 1943, "And the Word was Divine"

    Robert Harvey, D.D., Professor of New Testament Language and Literature, Westminster College, Cambridge, in The Historic Jesus in the New Testament, London, Student Movement Christian Press1931 "and the Logos was divine (a divine being)"

    Jesuit John L. McKenzie, 1965, wrote in his Dictionary of the Bible: "Jn 1:1 should rigorously be translated . . . 'the word was a divine being.'

    Dymond, E.C. New Testament, 1962 (original manuscript) "In the beginning was the creative purpose of God. It was with God and was fully expressive of God [just as wisdom was with God before creation]."

    Buzzard/Hunting "In the beginning of God’s creative effort, even before he created the heavenly bodies and the earth, the mental power to reason logically already existed, and the Wisdom produced by it was known only to God, for the Wisdom was God’s Wisdom" (Pro. 8:22-30)

    Barclay, W. The Daily Study Bible- The Gospel of John vol.1 "III. [Revised Edition ISBN 0-664-21304-9: Finally John says that "The Word was God". There is no doubt that this is a difficult saying for us to understand, and it is difficult because greek, in which John wrote, had a different way of saying things from the way in which english speaks. When the greek uses a noun it almost always uses the definite article with it. The greek for God is ‘theos’, and the definite article is ‘ho’. When greek speaks about God it does not simply say ‘theos’; it says ‘ho theos’. Now, when greek does not use the definite article with a noun that noun becomes much more like an adjective; it describes the character, the quality of the person. John did not say that the Word was ‘ho theos’; that would have been to say that the Word was identical with God; he says that the Word was ‘theos’- without the definite article- which means that the Word was, as we might say, of the very same character and quality and essence and being as God. When John said ‘The Word was God’ he was not saying that Jesus is identical with God, he was saying that Jesus is so perfectly the same as God in mind, in heart, in being that in Jesus we perfectly see what God is like"



    Edited by robin - 26 September 2008 at 2:32pm    ]]>     Fri, 26 Sep 2008 14:29:12 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=112342#112342     From where did the trinity teaching come? : Response to PattyaMainerOthers... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=112312#112312 Author: Mansoor_ali
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 26 September 2008 at 8:57am


     Response to PattyaMainer

     Others might disagree with you PattyaMainer regarding John 1:1

    http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=61(Part 1)

    http://www.biblicalunitarian.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=247(Part 2)

     


     
      ]]>     Fri, 26 Sep 2008 08:57:35 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=112312#112312     From where did the trinity teaching come? : Originally posted by robin Originally... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=111815#111815 Author: PattyaMainer
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 18 September 2008 at 5:10am

    Originally posted by robin

    Originally posted by minuteman

     
     robin, you have again a long winding lecture about Jesus is God or not. In the end you have said:
     
     

    So we can ask again, who is Jesus talking about, as it cannot be himself"  He is talking about Almighty God, thus Jesus cannot be Almighty God!

     Do we understand that Jesus is not God or Jesus is not Almighty God. What is the opinion (short reply) of the YW's (Ya Huwa's witnesses). As you know, there is only one God. We cannot have an Almighty God and a less mighty God.

    John Ch. 1:1-2 talks of Jesus in his heavenly postion next the God Almighty Jehovah and he is called:-
     
    John 1:1-2
    In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.
     
    A subordinate divine (heavenly) being next to the Almighty God!
     
    "A" God, Robin?????  Absolutely incorrect in all Bibles, except perhaps whatever you're reading from!!
     
    Here is what the true Bibles say:
     
     

    New American Standard Bible (©1995)
    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
    In the beginning the Word already existed. The Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    King James Bible
    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    American King James Version
    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    American Standard Version
    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    Bible in Basic English
    From the first he was the Word, and the Word was in relation with God and was God.

    Douay-Rheims Bible
    IN the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    Darby Bible Translation
    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    English Revised Version
    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    Webster's Bible Translation
    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    Weymouth New Testament
    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    World English Bible
    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    Young's Literal Translation
    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God;

    Geneva Study Bible

    In {1} the {a} beginning {b} was {c} the Word, and the Word was {d} with God, and the {e} Word was God.

    (1) The Son of God is of one and the selfsame eternity or everlastingness, and of one and the selfsame essence or nature with the Father.

    (a) From the beginning, as the evangelist says in 1Jo 1:1; it is as though he said that the Word did not begin to have his being when God began to make all that was made: for the Word was even then when all things that were made began to be made, and therefore he was before the beginning of all things.

    (b) Had his being.

    (c) This word the points out to us a peculiar and choice thing above all others, and puts a difference between this Word, which is the Son of God, and the laws of God, which are also called the word of God.

    (d) This word with points out that there is a distinction of persons here.

    (e) This word Word is the first in order in the sentence, and is the subject of the sentence, and this word God is the latter in order, and is the predicate of the sentence.

    People's New Testament

    1:1-3 The Beginning of Christ's Ministry

    SUMMARY OF JOHN 1:

    The Word Made Flesh. The Witness of John. John's Disciples Pointed to Christ. The Lord Calls His First Disciples. An Israelite Indeed.

    In the beginning was the Word, etc. The first fourteen verses are introductory. In order to set at rest all controversy the Divine nature of Jesus, John glances, in the first three verses, back to the beginning, recorded in Genesis, and affirms: (1) That he who was afterwards manifest as the Christ existed before creation began; (2) that he was present with God; (3) that he was divine; (4) that he was the Word; (5) that by or through him were all things made that were made (Joh 1:3). The first chapter of Genesis helps us to understand its meaning. God said, Let there be light (Ge 1:3), Let there be a firmament (Ge 1:6), Let the earth bring forth (Ge 1:11), etc. and it was done. God exhibits his creative power through the Word, and manifests his will through the Word. There are mysteries belonging to the divine nature and to the relation between the Son and the Father that we have to wait for eternity to solve. They are too deep for human solution, but this is clear: that God creates and speaks to man through the Word. As we clothe our thoughts in words, so God reveals his will by the Word, and when the Word is clothed in flesh, as the Teacher of men, we recognize it as Jesus Christ.

    Patty

     

     
    ]]>     Thu, 18 Sep 2008 05:10:45 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=111815#111815     From where did the trinity teaching come? : Originally posted by minuteman... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=111734#111734 Author: robin
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 17 September 2008 at 9:49am

    Originally posted by minuteman

     
     robin, you have again a long winding lecture about Jesus is God or not. In the end you have said:
     
     

    So we can ask again, who is Jesus talking about, as it cannot be himself"  He is talking about Almighty God, thus Jesus cannot be Almighty God!

     Do we understand that Jesus is not God or Jesus is not Almighty God. What is the opinion (short reply) of the YW's (Ya Huwa's witnesses). As you know, there is only one God. We cannot have an Almighty God and a less mighty God.

    John Ch. 1:1-2 talks of Jesus in his heavenly postion next the God Almighty Jehovah and he is called:-
     
    John 1:1-2
    In [the] beginning the Word was, and the Word was with God, and the Word was a god.
     
    A subordinate divine (heavenly) being next to the Almighty God!
     
     
    ]]>     Wed, 17 Sep 2008 09:49:02 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=111734#111734     From where did the trinity teaching come? : Originally posted by Nazarene Originally... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=111733#111733 Author: robin
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 17 September 2008 at 9:41am

    Originally posted by Nazarene

    Originally posted by robin

     i guess there's a little pagen in all of us right!! stop the killing.
     
    NO.   One is for God and not pagan or a little bit pagan and totaly rejected by God!
    [/QUOTE] are blood sacrifices a polution of demonic doctrines or not? i don't understand your reply above [/QUOTE]
     
    Today there is no need for blood sacrifices.
     
    Satan & his Demons have always copied true religion, as the cannot produce anything new or clean!
    ]]>     Wed, 17 Sep 2008 09:41:38 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=111733#111733     From where did the trinity teaching come? : Originally posted by robin ... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=111649#111649 Author: Nazarene
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 16 September 2008 at 3:42pm

    Originally posted by robin

     i guess there's a little pagen in all of us right!! stop the killing.[/QUOTE]
     
    NO.   One is for God and not pagan or a little bit pagan and totaly rejected by God!
    [/QUOTE] are blood sacrifices a polution of demonic doctrines or not? i don't understand your reply above

    Edited by Nazarene - 16 September 2008 at 3:42pm    ]]>     Tue, 16 Sep 2008 15:42:25 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=111649#111649     From where did the trinity teaching come? : Originally posted by honetoPatty,... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=111645#111645 Author: PattyaMainer
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 16 September 2008 at 2:11pm

    Originally posted by honeto

    Patty,
    I am still waiting your response to Jesus' admittance of God (Father) being greater than him while you  believe the three are equal in power.
    Hasan
     
    Sorry for the delay, honeto.  I don't always have the ability to access this site.  Here is my answer for which you have been waiting:
     
    JOH 10:24 The Jews therefore gathered around Him, and were saying to Him, "How long will You keep us in suspense? If You are the Christ, tell us plainly."
    JOH 10:25 Jesus answered them, "I told you, and you do not believe; the works that I do in My Father's name, these bear witness of Me.
    JOH 10:26 "But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep.
    JOH 10:27 "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me;
    JOH 10:28 and I give eternal life to them, and they shall never perish; and no one shall snatch them out of My hand.
    JOH 10:29 "My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand.
    JOH 10:30 "I and the Father are one."

    I hope this answers your question somewhat.  Have a beautiful day!

    God's Peace,

    Patty
     
     
     
     


    Edited by PattyaMainer - 16 September 2008 at 2:12pm    ]]>     Tue, 16 Sep 2008 14:11:50 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=111645#111645     From where did the trinity teaching come? : i guess there&#039;s a little... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=111589#111589 Author: robin
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 16 September 2008 at 12:59am

    [/QUOTE]
     i guess there's a little pagen in all of us right!! stop the killing.[/QUOTE]
     
    NO.   One is for God and not pagan or a little bit pagan and totaly rejected by God!


    Edited by robin - 16 September 2008 at 1:00am    ]]>     Tue, 16 Sep 2008 00:59:44 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=111589#111589     From where did the trinity teaching come? : Originally posted by robin Originally... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=111552#111552 Author: Nazarene
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 15 September 2008 at 4:23pm

    Originally posted by robin

    Originally posted by Nazarene

    this was'nt posted as a history lesson. simply a teaching of jesus. robin you seem to have great knowledge. please don't get lost within yourself.  jesus has another teaching that's not from egypt but buddist ( tibet.)
     
       he who knows eveything but dose not know himself knows nothing.
     
    your right though. there wes a conection between jesus' people the essenes and egypt. a group lived there. thats where joseph and mary sought safety with the brothers and sisters there. also there was a town in northeast egypt named "Babylon" at the time of christ. this could clairify the verse 1 peter 5:13 - " She who is in Babylon, chosen together with you, sends her greetings". 
     
     
    peace.
     
     
    The point is that the trinity is not of Biblical, it is pagan, and is thus a polution of demonic doctrines of Biblical teaching as God Is One!
    so is the sacrificing of animals ( blood sacrifice  a polution of demonic doctrines) . yet thousands are sacrificed each year the ( Eid Al-Adhha) i guess there's a little pagen in all of us right!! stop the killing. sacrifice more of the wealth you have gained to give to the poor. honor abraham with life! not death. honor the life spared by god with life!!

    Edited by Nazarene - 15 September 2008 at 4:29pm    ]]>     Mon, 15 Sep 2008 16:23:36 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=111552#111552     From where did the trinity teaching come? : Patty, I am still waiting your... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=111548#111548 Author: honeto
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 15 September 2008 at 2:02pm

    Patty,
    I am still waiting your response to Jesus' admittance of God (Father) being greater than him while you  believe the three are equal in power.
    Hasan
    ]]>     Mon, 15 Sep 2008 14:02:20 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=111548#111548     From where did the trinity teaching come? : Originally posted by Nazarenethis... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=111533#111533 Author: robin
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 15 September 2008 at 10:06am

    Originally posted by Nazarene

    this was'nt posted as a history lesson. simply a teaching of jesus. robin you seem to have great knowledge. please don't get lost within yourself.  jesus has another teaching that's not from egypt but buddist ( tibet.)
     
       he who knows eveything but dose not know himself knows nothing.
     
    your right though. there wes a conection between jesus' people the essenes and egypt. a group lived there. thats where joseph and mary sought safety with the brothers and sisters there. also there was a town in northeast egypt named "Babylon" at the time of christ. this could clairify the verse 1 peter 5:13 - " She who is in Babylon, chosen together with you, sends her greetings". 
     
     
    peace.
     
     
    The point is that the trinity is not of Biblical, it is pagan, and is thus a polution of demonic doctrines of Biblical teaching as God Is One!
    ]]>     Mon, 15 Sep 2008 10:06:10 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=111533#111533     From where did the trinity teaching come? : Originally posted by robin Originally... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=111417#111417 Author: Nazarene
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 13 September 2008 at 6:26pm

    Originally posted by robin

    Originally posted by Nazarene

    the trinity explaind by jesus

    Lection LXVI

                 Iesus Again Teacheth His Disciples
                 Concerning The Nature Of God
                          The Two In One

        1. AGAIN Jesus taught them saying, God hath raised up witnesses to the truth in every nation and every age, that all might know the will of the Eternal and do it, and after that, enter into the kingdom, to be rulers and workers with the Eternal,


        2. God is Power, Love and Wisdom, and these three are One. God is Truth, Goodness and Beauty, and these three are One.

        3. God is Justice, Knowledge and Purity, and these three are One. God is Splendour, Compassion and Holiness, and these three are One.

        4. And these four Trinities are One in the hidden Deity, the Perfect, the Infinite, the Onely.

        5. Likewise in every man who is perfected, there are three persons, that of the son, that of the spouse. and that of the father, and these three are one.

        6. So in every woman who is Perfected are there three persons, that of the daughter, that of the bride, and that of the mother and these three are one; and the man and the woman are one, even as God is One

        7. Thus it is with God the Father-Mother, in Whom is neither male nor female and in Whom is both, and each is threefold,  and all are One in the hidden Unity.

        8. Marvel not at this, for as it is above so it is below, and as it is below so it is above, and that which is on earth is so, because it is so in Heaven.

        9. Again I say unto you, I and My Bride are one, even as Maria Magdalena, whom I have chosen and sanctified unto Myself as a type, is one with Me; I and My Church are One. And the Church is the elect of humanity for the salvation of all.

        10. The Church of the first born is the Maria of God. Thus saith the Eternal, She is My Mother and she hath ever conceived Me, and brought Me forth as Her Son in every age and clime. She is My Bride, ever one in Holy Union with Me her Spouse. She is My Daughter, for she hath ever issued and proceeded from Me her Father, rejoicing in Me.

        11. And these two Trinities are One in the Eternal, and are strewn forth in each man and woman who are made perfect, ever being born of God, and rejoicing in light, ever being lifted up and made one with God, ever conceiving and bringing forth God for the salvation of the many.
     
        12. This is the Mystery of the Trinity in Humanity, and moreover in every individual child of man must be accomplished the mystery of God, ever witnessing to the light, suffering for the truth, ascending into Heaven, and sending forth the Spirit of Truth And this is the path of salvation, for the kingdom of God is within.

        13. And one said unto him, Master, when shall the kingdom come? And he answered and said, When that which is without shall be as that which is within, and that which is within shall be as that which is without, and, the male with the female, neither male nor female, but the two in One. They who have ears to hear let them hear
                             there's so much to tell,so much to talk about.
                             all my love ,leland
     
     
    TO ANCIENT PAGAN EGYPT (WHOM GOD HATED) FOR THE TRINITY OF THE CHURCHIES!
     

    Sir E. A. Wallis Budge further goes on to say the following about the Egyptian god Thoth and how it parallels Plato's Logos which was later absorbed into the Churches doctrines as Plato received his ideas via the Egyptians:-

    "We are now able to sum up the attributes ascribed to Thoth, and to consider how he employed them in connection with the dead. In first place, he was held to be both the heart and the tongue of Ra, that is to say, he was the reason and the mental powers of the god, and also the means by which t their will was translated into speech ; from one aspect he was speech itself, and in later times he may well have represented, as Dr. Birch said, the logoV of Plato. In every legend in which Thoth takes a prominent part we see that it is he who speaks the word that results in the wishes of Ra being carried into effect, and it is evident that when he had once given the word of commend that command could not fail to be carried out by one means or the other."-'The gods of the Egyptians' by E.A. Wallis Budge Vol. 1 p.407

    parallel to the above they conceived the nature of the "One Great God" is via the trinity concept as note in the book 'Before Philosophy' by H. Frankfort, Mrs. H. Frankfort, J.A. Wilson, T. Jacobsen page 75:-

    "The fluidity of Egyptian concepts and the tendency to synthesize divergent elements have led some Egyptologists to believe that Egyptians were really monotheistic, that all gods were subsumed into a single god. In a moment we shall present a text that would seem to be a prime document for this thesis of essential monotheism, but we wish to preface it by insisting that it is not a matter of a single god but of single nature of observed phenomena in the universe, with the clear possibility of exchange and substitution. With relation to gods and men the Egyptians were monophysites : many men and many gods, but all ultimately one nature.

    The text that we mentioned presents an Egyptian trinity : the three gods who were supremely important at one period of history all taken up into a single divinity. The purpose was to enlarge the god Amon by incorporating the other two gods into his being. 'All gods are three - Amon, Re, and Ptah - and they have no second'. Amon in the name of this single being, Re in his head, and Ptah in his body. 'Only he is : Amon and Re (and Ptah), togther three.' [Leyden Amon Hymn, 4:21-26.] Three gods are one, and yet the Egyptians elsewhere insists on the separate identity of each of the three."

    Further to quote renowned Egyptian Archaeologist Sir W. M. Flinders Pertie:-

    *"God is not Mind, or spirit or Light, but is the cause of Mind, Spirit, and Light No other so-called gods or daimons can be in any measure Good, but God only can be Good, as He is the same as Good. God also is the universal Father as Creator. . . . The gods were seen as stars. . . . As Kosmos is the Second God, so Man is the third living thing after the image of the Kosmos. He has feelings with the Second God, and a conception of the First God. Kosmos is by God and in God. Man is by Kosmos and in Kosmos. In none of these is Logos personified, nor Wisdom mentioned. . . . It seems probable that such works belng to 450-350 B.C., as they have none of the marks of later thought.

    **We now enter on the next stage, in the Corp. Herm [Corpus Hermeticum], xiii, v, xiv, and i, where these writings introduce the personification of the Divine Logos, but not that of Divine Wisdom Thus it appears that the Logos literature precedes the Wisdom literature, in which the Logos is also found We will first notice the development of doctrine in these works . . . One of the earliest of this class must be "About the Universal Mind" (Corp. Herm., xiii) . . . it must be earlier than 332 B.C. . . . "Unto this Logos, son, thy adoration and thy worship pay."

    The Logos also begins to appear in "The Cup" or rather "Font" (Corp. Herm., v). "With Logos (reason) not with hands did the Demiourgos make the universal Kosmos," "Man did excel by reason of the Logos," "Logos indeed among all men He hath distributed."

    "The Secret Sermon" (Corp. Herm., xiv) seems to be of the same date [300 B.C.] or rather later. The Logos is a higher principle apparently, as we read "Rejoice, O Son, for by the Power of God thou art being purified for articulation of the Logos. Gnosis of God hath come to us." "Thy Logos sings through me thy praises." "Send thou oblation . . . acceptable to God . . . but add my son too 'through the Logos.' " The Logos seems in this Sermon to be the divine principle. Here we find a development of the doctrine of Conversion; it is no longer being baptized in the Divine Mind, but it is "the tradition of Re-birth"; . . . "How is the author of Re-birth? The Son of God, the One Man, by God's will." . . . At first sight this might be put down as Christian in source; but we have already seen in the Perfect Sermon, which can only be put to 340 B.C. "The Lord and Maker of all . . . from himself made the Second God, the Visible . . . whom he loved as his Son," and the Logos doctrine is far less developed than in Philon.

    These allusions naturally bring next to this the "Shepherd of Men" or Poimandres, the best known Hermetic work (Corp. Herm., i) In that the Logos doctrine is further developed. In the Creation "a Holy Logos descends on that Nature, and upward to the light from Moist, Nature leaped pure fire" ; "Earth and water no one could discern, yet were they moved to hear by reason of the Logos pervading them" ; "The Logos that appeared from Mind is Son of God". . . Here the Logos holds the place afterwards taken by Wisdom or the Spirit. "Holy art Thou who didst by Logos make to consist the things that are"

    Advanced as these statements may be, they scarcely reach the level of Philon, in such terms as the Son of God, the One Man, the Logos ; and as Philon thus decisively cuts them off from being necessarily of Christian origin, we need not hesitate at their being two or three centuries earlier . . .

    Having now traced the growth of post-Alexandrine documents, we will turn back to summarise the general ideas and beliefs which we find in them, before proceeding to the later developments.

    The treatise on "The Universal Mind" (Corp. Herm.,xiii) deals with several problems, which we here divide in to separate paragraphs.

    Logos is only used by Man, animals have mere voice. logos is in Mind, and Mind in is God ; Mind also is in Soul, Soul in Form, and Form in Body, The other series of cosmic nature is God, in Mind, in Soul, in Air, in Matter. Kosmos continue for ever, and therefore it must Needs be a God ; it is filled full of Life, and is a Mighty God, image of the mightier God.

    The Hymn of Re-birth is to be said in open air, facing south-west at sunset, and facing east at sun-rise. The earth is called on to open, every bolt of the abyss to be drawn (the Egyptian view of the twelve gates of the underworld) and heaven is to open. The praises of the Creator is to be sung by man, by nature, and by all the inner powers of man, The Logos sings through man and praise for God's indwelling. God's Mind shepherds the Logos in Man. The doctrine of the re-birth is to be secret or esoteric.

    God the Mind--being light and fire, male and female--brought forth another Mind, God formed of fire and sprit. The second God formed seven rulers of the Kosmos, whose rule is fate.

    God the Mind then brought forth heavenly Man, coequal with himself, and thus parallel to the Second God. God loved Man and gave him all his qualities. Man then saw the creations of his Brother the Second God, and they loved Man.

    The Hermetic books as a whole seem to hang together, and to belong to one general period, 500-200 B.C., while the Logos only begins to appear in the latter, and Wisdom never appears."-Personal Religion in Egypt Before Christianity by W. M. Flinders Pertie Ch. V. The Undated Hermetic Writings pp.*87, **91 -102

    "Now we come to the attitude of Philon*, which was by no means a product of his own mind, when he wrote about A.D. 40, but was the statement of a body of thought that had been growing up ever since the mixture of Greek and Jewish ideas. His views were necessarily based upon his national scripture; but, as far as he could, he accepted Greek philosophy. His attitude is best seen by the fact that some of his writings were for Jews who accepted their scripture, and other writings for Greeks who ignored the Jewish scriptures. His position was that of the Egypto-Greek theo-cosm-sophy adopted so far as was practicable compatible with Jewish scripture. His view was that God was incomprehensible, and that man can only recognise his existence, but not know of his personal being. . . in this we see the old Egyptian idea . . . "The Logos in God's likeness by whom the whole Kosmos was fashioned." . . . The Logos is called Dominion, and Name of God, and Reason, and Man-after-his-Likness, and Seeing Israel." . . . Thus far was the way prepared for later developments of doctrine and idea in Christianity."-Personal Religion in Egypt Before Christianity by W.M. Flinders Pertie Ch. V. The Undated Hermetic Writings pp.103-106

    *Philo the Helenised Jewish Philosopher

    this was'nt posted as a history lesson. simply a teaching of jesus. robin you seem to have great knowledge. please don't get lost within yourself.  jesus has another teaching that's not from egypt but buddist ( tibet.)
     
       he who knows eveything but dose not know himself knows nothing.
     
    your right though. there wes a conection between jesus' people the essenes and egypt. a group lived there. thats where joseph and mary sought safety with the brothers and sisters there. also there was a town in northeast egypt named "Babylon" at the time of christ. this could clairify the verse 1 peter 5:13 - " She who is in Babylon, chosen together with you, sends her greetings". 
     
     
    peace.
     
    ]]>     Sat, 13 Sep 2008 18:26:47 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=111417#111417     From where did the trinity teaching come? : Originally posted by Nazarene the... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=111351#111351 Author: robin
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 12 September 2008 at 12:52am

    Originally posted by Nazarene

    the trinity explaind by jesus

    Lection LXVI

                 Iesus Again Teacheth His Disciples
                 Concerning The Nature Of God
                          The Two In One

        1. AGAIN Jesus taught them saying, God hath raised up witnesses to the truth in every nation and every age, that all might know the will of the Eternal and do it, and after that, enter into the kingdom, to be rulers and workers with the Eternal,


        2. God is Power, Love and Wisdom, and these three are One. God is Truth, Goodness and Beauty, and these three are One.

        3. God is Justice, Knowledge and Purity, and these three are One. God is Splendour, Compassion and Holiness, and these three are One.

        4. And these four Trinities are One in the hidden Deity, the Perfect, the Infinite, the Onely.

        5. Likewise in every man who is perfected, there are three persons, that of the son, that of the spouse. and that of the father, and these three are one.

        6. So in every woman who is Perfected are there three persons, that of the daughter, that of the bride, and that of the mother and these three are one; and the man and the woman are one, even as God is One

        7. Thus it is with God the Father-Mother, in Whom is neither male nor female and in Whom is both, and each is threefold,  and all are One in the hidden Unity.

        8. Marvel not at this, for as it is above so it is below, and as it is below so it is above, and that which is on earth is so, because it is so in Heaven.

        9. Again I say unto you, I and My Bride are one, even as Maria Magdalena, whom I have chosen and sanctified unto Myself as a type, is one with Me; I and My Church are One. And the Church is the elect of humanity for the salvation of all.

        10. The Church of the first born is the Maria of God. Thus saith the Eternal, She is My Mother and she hath ever conceived Me, and brought Me forth as Her Son in every age and clime. She is My Bride, ever one in Holy Union with Me her Spouse. She is My Daughter, for she hath ever issued and proceeded from Me her Father, rejoicing in Me.

        11. And these two Trinities are One in the Eternal, and are strewn forth in each man and woman who are made perfect, ever being born of God, and rejoicing in light, ever being lifted up and made one with God, ever conceiving and bringing forth God for the salvation of the many.
     
        12. This is the Mystery of the Trinity in Humanity, and moreover in every individual child of man must be accomplished the mystery of God, ever witnessing to the light, suffering for the truth, ascending into Heaven, and sending forth the Spirit of Truth And this is the path of salvation, for the kingdom of God is within.

        13. And one said unto him, Master, when shall the kingdom come? And he answered and said, When that which is without shall be as that which is within, and that which is within shall be as that which is without, and, the male with the female, neither male nor female, but the two in One. They who have ears to hear let them hear
                             there's so much to tell,so much to talk about.
                             all my love ,leland
     
     
    TO ANCIENT PAGAN EGYPT (WHOM GOD HATED) FOR THE TRINITY OF THE CHURCHIES!
     

    Sir E. A. Wallis Budge further goes on to say the following about the Egyptian god Thoth and how it parallels Plato's Logos which was later absorbed into the Churches doctrines as Plato received his ideas via the Egyptians:-

    "We are now able to sum up the attributes ascribed to Thoth, and to consider how he employed them in connection with the dead. In first place, he was held to be both the heart and the tongue of Ra, that is to say, he was the reason and the mental powers of the god, and also the means by which t their will was translated into speech ; from one aspect he was speech itself, and in later times he may well have represented, as Dr. Birch said, the logoV of Plato. In every legend in which Thoth takes a prominent part we see that it is he who speaks the word that results in the wishes of Ra being carried into effect, and it is evident that when he had once given the word of commend that command could not fail to be carried out by one means or the other."-'The gods of the Egyptians' by E.A. Wallis Budge Vol. 1 p.407

    parallel to the above they conceived the nature of the "One Great God" is via the trinity concept as note in the book 'Before Philosophy' by H. Frankfort, Mrs. H. Frankfort, J.A. Wilson, T. Jacobsen page 75:-

    "The fluidity of Egyptian concepts and the tendency to synthesize divergent elements have led some Egyptologists to believe that Egyptians were really monotheistic, that all gods were subsumed into a single god. In a moment we shall present a text that would seem to be a prime document for this thesis of essential monotheism, but we wish to preface it by insisting that it is not a matter of a single god but of single nature of observed phenomena in the universe, with the clear possibility of exchange and substitution. With relation to gods and men the Egyptians were monophysites : many men and many gods, but all ultimately one nature.

    The text that we mentioned presents an Egyptian trinity : the three gods who were supremely important at one period of history all taken up into a single divinity. The purpose was to enlarge the god Amon by incorporating the other two gods into his being. 'All gods are three - Amon, Re, and Ptah - and they have no second'. Amon in the name of this single being, Re in his head, and Ptah in his body. 'Only he is : Amon and Re (and Ptah), togther three.' [Leyden Amon Hymn, 4:21-26.] Three gods are one, and yet the Egyptians elsewhere insists on the separate identity of each of the three."

    Further to quote renowned Egyptian Archaeologist Sir W. M. Flinders Pertie:-

    *"God is not Mind, or spirit or Light, but is the cause of Mind, Spirit, and Light No other so-called gods or daimons can be in any measure Good, but God only can be Good, as He is the same as Good. God also is the universal Father as Creator. . . . The gods were seen as stars. . . . As Kosmos is the Second God, so Man is the third living thing after the image of the Kosmos. He has feelings with the Second God, and a conception of the First God. Kosmos is by God and in God. Man is by Kosmos and in Kosmos. In none of these is Logos personified, nor Wisdom mentioned. . . . It seems probable that such works belng to 450-350 B.C., as they have none of the marks of later thought.

    **We now enter on the next stage, in the Corp. Herm [Corpus Hermeticum], xiii, v, xiv, and i, where these writings introduce the personification of the Divine Logos, but not that of Divine Wisdom Thus it appears that the Logos literature precedes the Wisdom literature, in which the Logos is also found We will first notice the development of doctrine in these works . . . One of the earliest of this class must be "About the Universal Mind" (Corp. Herm., xiii) . . . it must be earlier than 332 B.C. . . . "Unto this Logos, son, thy adoration and thy worship pay."

    The Logos also begins to appear in "The Cup" or rather "Font" (Corp. Herm., v). "With Logos (reason) not with hands did the Demiourgos make the universal Kosmos," "Man did excel by reason of the Logos," "Logos indeed among all men He hath distributed."

    "The Secret Sermon" (Corp. Herm., xiv) seems to be of the same date [300 B.C.] or rather later. The Logos is a higher principle apparently, as we read "Rejoice, O Son, for by the Power of God thou art being purified for articulation of the Logos. Gnosis of God hath come to us." "Thy Logos sings through me thy praises." "Send thou oblation . . . acceptable to God . . . but add my son too 'through the Logos.' " The Logos seems in this Sermon to be the divine principle. Here we find a development of the doctrine of Conversion; it is no longer being baptized in the Divine Mind, but it is "the tradition of Re-birth"; . . . "How is the author of Re-birth? The Son of God, the One Man, by God's will." . . . At first sight this might be put down as Christian in source; but we have already seen in the Perfect Sermon, which can only be put to 340 B.C. "The Lord and Maker of all . . . from himself made the Second God, the Visible . . . whom he loved as his Son," and the Logos doctrine is far less developed than in Philon.

    These allusions naturally bring next to this the "Shepherd of Men" or Poimandres, the best known Hermetic work (Corp. Herm., i) In that the Logos doctrine is further developed. In the Creation "a Holy Logos descends on that Nature, and upward to the light from Moist, Nature leaped pure fire" ; "Earth and water no one could discern, yet were they moved to hear by reason of the Logos pervading them" ; "The Logos that appeared from Mind is Son of God". . . Here the Logos holds the place afterwards taken by Wisdom or the Spirit. "Holy art Thou who didst by Logos make to consist the things that are"

    Advanced as these statements may be, they scarcely reach the level of Philon, in such terms as the Son of God, the One Man, the Logos ; and as Philon thus decisively cuts them off from being necessarily of Christian origin, we need not hesitate at their being two or three centuries earlier . . .

    Having now traced the growth of post-Alexandrine documents, we will turn back to summarise the general ideas and beliefs which we find in them, before proceeding to the later developments.

    The treatise on "The Universal Mind" (Corp. Herm.,xiii) deals with several problems, which we here divide in to separate paragraphs.

    Logos is only used by Man, animals have mere voice. logos is in Mind, and Mind in is God ; Mind also is in Soul, Soul in Form, and Form in Body, The other series of cosmic nature is God, in Mind, in Soul, in Air, in Matter. Kosmos continue for ever, and therefore it must Needs be a God ; it is filled full of Life, and is a Mighty God, image of the mightier God.

    The Hymn of Re-birth is to be said in open air, facing south-west at sunset, and facing east at sun-rise. The earth is called on to open, every bolt of the abyss to be drawn (the Egyptian view of the twelve gates of the underworld) and heaven is to open. The praises of the Creator is to be sung by man, by nature, and by all the inner powers of man, The Logos sings through man and praise for God's indwelling. God's Mind shepherds the Logos in Man. The doctrine of the re-birth is to be secret or esoteric.

    God the Mind--being light and fire, male and female--brought forth another Mind, God formed of fire and sprit. The second God formed seven rulers of the Kosmos, whose rule is fate.

    God the Mind then brought forth heavenly Man, coequal with himself, and thus parallel to the Second God. God loved Man and gave him all his qualities. Man then saw the creations of his Brother the Second God, and they loved Man.

    The Hermetic books as a whole seem to hang together, and to belong to one general period, 500-200 B.C., while the Logos only begins to appear in the latter, and Wisdom never appears."-Personal Religion in Egypt Before Christianity by W. M. Flinders Pertie Ch. V. The Undated Hermetic Writings pp.*87, **91 -102

    "Now we come to the attitude of Philon*, which was by no means a product of his own mind, when he wrote about A.D. 40, but was the statement of a body of thought that had been growing up ever since the mixture of Greek and Jewish ideas. His views were necessarily based upon his national scripture; but, as far as he could, he accepted Greek philosophy. His attitude is best seen by the fact that some of his writings were for Jews who accepted their scripture, and other writings for Greeks who ignored the Jewish scriptures. His position was that of the Egypto-Greek theo-cosm-sophy adopted so far as was practicable compatible with Jewish scripture. His view was that God was incomprehensible, and that man can only recognise his existence, but not know of his personal being. . . in this we see the old Egyptian idea . . . "The Logos in God's likeness by whom the whole Kosmos was fashioned." . . . The Logos is called Dominion, and Name of God, and Reason, and Man-after-his-Likness, and Seeing Israel." . . . Thus far was the way prepared for later developments of doctrine and idea in Christianity."-Personal Religion in Egypt Before Christianity by W.M. Flinders Pertie Ch. V. The Undated Hermetic Writings pp.103-106

    *Philo the Helenised Jewish Philosopher

    ]]>     Fri, 12 Sep 2008 00:52:25 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=111351#111351     From where did the trinity teaching come? : Originally posted by PattyaMainer Originally... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=111350#111350 Author: robin
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 12 September 2008 at 12:43am

    Originally posted by PattyaMainer

    Originally posted by minuteman

     
     robin, you have again a long winding lecture about Jesus is God or not. In the end you have said:
     
     

    So we can ask again, who is Jesus talking about, as it cannot be himself"  He is talking about Almighty God, thus Jesus cannot be Almighty God!

     Do we understand that Jesus is not God or Jesus is not Almighty God. What is the opinion (short reply) of the YW's (Ya Huwa's witnesses). As you know, there is only one God. We cannot have an Almighty God and a less mighty God.

     

     
    I can repeat this only one more time.  The Trinity is composed of God the Father, Jesus the Son, and the Holy Spirit....and THESE THREE ARE ONE.  They are three in one.  They have three different and separate entities, but are combined to form ONE trinity.  I could ramble about ice, water, frost, etc., but I will let this topic go by saying you either have faith to believe what is said in the Bible...in the Holy Gospels, or you don't.  I cannot force you to believe or to understand.  It takes great faith, as do many verses in many Bibles.   It takes a great understanding of the history of that day when Jesus walked the earth, and I am woefully inept at explaining this to anyone.  I know what I have thoroughly studied, prayed over, and accept as truth.  Each religion on earth I have studied, but the Lord our Christ has touched me deeply, and I have no doubt that His word is the correct one.  I wanted to deny it, because it takes so much faith and discipline to lead a devout Christian/Catholic life, but in my heart I simply could not turn my back on what I have found to be the words of God.  I wish you all peace in the religion of your choice.  You are all in my heart and in my prayers.
     
    God's Peace Always,
    Patty
     
    THE BIBLE SAY NOT TO THE ABOVE!
     
    Jesus, The Son, is subordinate to God The Father thus he cannot be part of any trinity as in the trinity they are all equal in power (see A) which the bible does not teach (see B):-
     
     

    A     The Doctrine of the Trinity (or Bitarian ideas) has been called 'the central teaching of the church' and being as it appears as Article 1 in the "Articles of Religion" for the Church of England in their book of 'Common Prayer' this seems to be true, it reads as follows:-

    "1. Of Faith in the Holy Trinity.

    There is but one living and true God, everlasting, without body, parts, or passion; of infinite power, wisdom, and goodness; the Maker, and Preserver of all things both visible and invisible. And in unity of this Godhead there be three Persons of one substance, power, and eternity; the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost."

     

    B   

    The one having power, or the  “supreme” one over Jesus Christ is Jehovah!

     

    N.W.T. 1 Corinthians 11:3   “But I want YOU to know that the head of every man is the Christ; in turn the head of a woman is the man; in turn the head of the Christ is God.

     

    Other rendering from e-Sword of 1 Cor. 11:3

     

    Good News Bible   “But I want you to understand that Christ is supreme over every man, the husband is supreme over his wife, and God is supreme over Christ.”

     

    G.N.T.-WH+  θελω2309 V-PAI-1S  δε1161 CONJ  υμας5209 P-2AP  ειδεναι1492 V-RAN  οτι3754 CONJ  παντος3956 A-GSM  ανδρος435 N-GSM  η3588 T-NSF  κεφαλη2776 N-NSF  ο3588 T-NSM  χριστος5547 N-NSM  εστιν2076 V-PXI-3S  κεφαλη2776 N-NSF  δε1161 CONJ  γυναικος1135 N-GSF  ο3588 T-NSM  ανηρ435 N-NSM  κεφαλη2776 N-NSF  δε1161 CONJ  του3588 T-GSM  χριστου5547 N-GSM  ο3588 T-NSM  θεος2316 N-NSM  

     

    God’s Word   “However, I want you to realize that Christ has authority over every man, a husband has authority over his wife, and God has authority over Christ.”

     

    Hebrew Name Version  But I would have you know that the head of every man is Messiah, and the head of the woman is the man, and the head of Messiah is God.

     

    K.J.V.+   “But1161 I would2309 have you5209 know,1492 that3754 the3588 head2776 of every3956 man435 is2076 Christ;5547 and1161 the head2776 of the woman1135 is the3588 man;435 and1161 the head2776 of Christ5547 is God.2316.”

     

    1912 Weymouth N.T.   “I would have you know, however, that of every man, Christ is the Head, that of a woman her husband is the Head, and that God is Christ's Head.”

     

    Contemporary English Version   “Now I want you to know that Christ is the head over all men, and a man is the head over a woman. But God is the head over Christ.”

     

     

    “HEAD”:-

    J. Strong’s Greek  #2776 kefalh  kephalē  kef-al-ay'  Probably from the primary word kaptw kaptō (in the sense of seizing); the head (as the part most readily taken hold of), literally or figuratively: - head.

    Thayer Definition:

    1) the head, both of men and often of animals. Since the loss of the head destroys life, this word is used in the phrases relating to capital and extreme punishment.

    2) metaphorically anything supreme, chief, prominent

    2a) of persons, master lord: of a husband in relation to his wife

    2b) of Christ: the Lord of the husband and of the Church

    2c) of things: the corner stone

    Part of Speech: noun feminine.   A Related Word by Thayer’s/Strong’s Number: from the primary kapto (in the sense of seizing).   Citing in TDNT: 3:673, 429

     
    Note from the ‘Peoples N.T.’ on e-Sword; 1 Cor 11:3:-

    “For I would have you to know, etc. The order of rank is that Christ is the center, with the Father above and man below him; and in the family the man is first and the woman second. That is nature's order.”

     

    Another example:-

    N.W.T. 1 Corinthians 15:24   Brackets added.

    "Next, the end, when he (Jesus) hands over the kingdom to his God* (Jehovah) and Father* (Jehovah), when he (Jesus) has brought to nothing all government and all authority and power. [*See John 20:17]

    25 For he (Jesus) must rule as king until (Jehovah) [God] has put all enemies under his (Jesus') feet.

    26 As the last enemy, death is to be brought to nothing.

    27 For (Jehovah) [God] “subjected all things under his (Jesus') feet.” But when he (Jehovah) says that ‘all things have been subjected,’ it is evident that it is with the exception of the one (Jehovah) who subjected all things to him (Jesus).

    28 But when all things will have been subjected to him (Jesus), then the Son (Jesus) himself will also subject himself (Jesus) to the One (Jehovah) who subjected all things to him (Jesus), that (Jehovah) God may be all things to everyone.”

     

     

     

    In other words, Jesus Christ does as he is told to do by his superior, Jehovah God!



    Edited by robin - 12 September 2008 at 12:44am    ]]>     Fri, 12 Sep 2008 00:43:03 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=111350#111350     From where did the trinity teaching come? : Originally posted by minuteman... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=111316#111316 Author: PattyaMainer
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 11 September 2008 at 11:56am

    Originally posted by minuteman

     
     robin, you have again a long winding lecture about Jesus is God or not. In the end you have said:
     
     

    So we can ask again, who is Jesus talking about, as it cannot be himself"  He is talking about Almighty God, thus Jesus cannot be Almighty God!

     Do we understand that Jesus is not God or Jesus is not Almighty God. What is the opinion (short reply) of the YW's (Ya Huwa's witnesses). As you know, there is only one God. We cannot have an Almighty God and a less mighty God.

     

     
    I can repeat this only one more time.  The Trinity is composed of God the Father, Jesus the Son, and the Holy Spirit....and THESE THREE ARE ONE.  They are three in one.  They have three different and separate entities, but are combined to form ONE trinity.  I could ramble about ice, water, frost, etc., but I will let this topic go by saying you either have faith to believe what is said in the Bible...in the Holy Gospels, or you don't.  I cannot force you to believe or to understand.  It takes great faith, as do many verses in many Bibles.   It takes a great understanding of the history of that day when Jesus walked the earth, and I am woefully inept at explaining this to anyone.  I know what I have thoroughly studied, prayed over, and accept as truth.  Each religion on earth I have studied, but the Lord our Christ has touched me deeply, and I have no doubt that His word is the correct one.  I wanted to deny it, because it takes so much faith and discipline to lead a devout Christian/Catholic life, but in my heart I simply could not turn my back on what I have found to be the words of God.  I wish you all peace in the religion of your choice.  You are all in my heart and in my prayers.
     
    God's Peace Always,
    Patty
    ]]>     Thu, 11 Sep 2008 11:56:37 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=111316#111316     From where did the trinity teaching come? : robin, you have again a long... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=111290#111290 Author: minuteman
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 10 September 2008 at 8:14pm

     
     robin, you have again a long winding lecture about Jesus is God or not. In the end you have said:
     
     

    So we can ask again, who is Jesus talking about, as it cannot be himself"  He is talking about Almighty God, thus Jesus cannot be Almighty God!

     Do we understand that Jesus is not God or Jesus is not Almighty God. What is the opinion (short reply) of the YW's (Ya Huwa's witnesses). As you know, there is only one God. We cannot have an Almighty God and a less mighty God.

     

    ]]>     Wed, 10 Sep 2008 20:14:35 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=111290#111290     From where did the trinity teaching come? : Originally posted by PattyaMainer Originally... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=111287#111287 Author: honeto
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 10 September 2008 at 5:54pm

    Originally posted by PattyaMainer

    Originally posted by honeto

    Originally posted by PattyaMainer

    I John 5:7-8 states the following:
    <FONT face="Trebuchet MS"> 

    <FONT face="Trebuchet MS" size=3>For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.8And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

     

    There are MANY other scriptures which also clearly state that Jesus, God, and the Holy Spirit are one and the same.....this is the triune Godhead.  No mention of the word trinity is mentioned in the Bible, however, it is quite clear of the intention and assertion of one God comprise of three completely separate entities. 

     

    Robin, you are trying to prove what Jehovah Witnesses believe...that Jesus is not God.  Even a good atheist knows you cannot prove a negative.  You should take a course in Quantam Physics. 

     

    God is God; therefore, He can do anything.  Even create a Trinity, which He did choose to do and which does exist.    (Oh ye of little faith...where is your faith, Robin?)  Obviously it is not in the writings of the Holy Gospels.

     

    God's Peace,

    Patty

     

    Hi Patty,

    you are right God can do anything.

    You said: "Even create a Trinity, which He did choose to do and which does exist. "

    Let me say this, what God creates is created, but God is not created. Thus the created (as you agree in this case) the Trinity, is not equal to the Creator, God Almighty even if we assume there is one.

     

    Regards,

    Hasan


    Yes, you are correct in stating that God can create anything...absolutely. That being said, He can also choose to make each separate entity of the Triune Godhead separate,yet still equal....that is exactly what He did. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are three in one, and each is equal to the other.

    God's Peace,
    PattyaMainer
     
     
    Patty,
    if we assume for a second that you are right about the three being equal, the following Bible quotes will prove us wrong, as Jesus, one of the three of the Triune Godhead according to your belief, is declaring otherwise:
    John 14:28......for the Father is greater than I.

     

    Hasan


    ]]>     Wed, 10 Sep 2008 17:54:17 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=111287#111287     From where did the trinity teaching come? : As it has been stated repeatedly... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=111283#111283 Author: PattyaMainer
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 10 September 2008 at 4:46pm

    As it has been stated repeatedly here, Robin, the Trinity is the "Triune Godhead", which means three separate entities but all are one which form the trinity.  You choose NOT to believe this.  It takes faith, which you do not seem to possess.
     
    However, I would like to hear your response as to how Jehovah Witnesses feel about Black people.  How your "chuch" teaches the Black race will become white, how being black is their punishment for the sins of Ham, how your "church" does not have high ranking Blacks within your religion partly because they do not believe Blacks are intelligent enough, etc. 
     
    Please.....now is your chance to explain this prejudice within the Jehovah Witness cult.  (I won't even begin to go into the hate mongering you have for the likes of me, a devout Roman Catholic...let's just get your response on your "church's" feelings and beliefs about the good Black folks for now). 
     
    Thanks for your response.
    Patty


    Edited by PattyaMainer - 10 September 2008 at 4:48pm    ]]>     Wed, 10 Sep 2008 16:46:41 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=111283#111283     From where did the trinity teaching come? : Originally posted by minuteman ... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=111273#111273 Author: robin
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 10 September 2008 at 1:16pm

    Originally posted by minuteman

     
     robin, you are quoting complicated sentenses, verses. Why don't you tell us if Jesus is God or not? Be short and smart, in plain words please.
     
     If you do not support Trinity (as I think you do not) then Jesus is not a God. Welcome now !
     
     
    It matters not what I say, but what the Bible says!!
     
    The above say God is "one" not two or three!
     

    “My God” said Jesus.

     

    To whom was Jesus calling to at:-

    Matthew 27:46

    “About the ninth hour Jesus called out with a loud voice, saying: "E´li, E´li, la´ma sa·bach·tha´ni?" that is, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?"”

    Which is literally rendered "this is the God of me, God of me."-'The NASB-NIV parallel N.T. in Gk. & Eng.' with Interlinear Translated by Alfred Marshall*

     

    Who is Jesus referring to at:-

     

    John 20:17

    “Jesus said to her: “Stop clinging to me. For I have not yet ascended to the Father. But be on your way to my brothers and say to them, ‘I am ascending to my Father (Literal Gk. “Father of me”^) and YOUR Father and to my God (Literal Gk. “God of me”^) and YOUR God.’”

    ^'The NASB-NIV parallel N.T. in Gk. & Eng.' with Interlinear Translated by Alfred Marshall

     

    “my  poss[essive]. pron[oun]. (attrib.) 1 of or belonging to me. 2 affectionate, patronizing, etc. form of address (my dear boy). 3 in expressions of surprise (my God!; oh my!). 4 colloq. indicating a close relative etc. of the speaker (my Johnny's ill again).  my Lady (or Lord) form of address to certain titled persons. [from *mine1] .”-Oxford Dictionary

     

    “god  n[oun]. 1 a (in many religions) superhuman being or spirit worshipped as having power over nature, human fortunes, etc. b image, idol, etc., symbolizing a god. 2 (God) (in Christian and other monotheistic religions) creator and ruler of the universe. 3 adored or greatly admired person. … .”-Oxford Dictionary

     
    Jesus must have been calling to the Almighty (the Father, his God, see John 20:17, “my God”, (Lit. Gk. "God of me" 'The NASB-NIV parallel N.T. in Gk. & Eng.' with Interliner Translated by Alfred Marshall) quoting from Ps 22:1 where King David was, showing that God is somone other than himself. No, Jesus cannot be Almighty God if he plainly says in the above texts that he himself has a God!
     
     
    We can also add to the above, the following words, where Jesus is speaking from an exulted heavenly postion:-

    Revelation 3:12-13

    "‘The one that conquers—I* will make him a pillar in the temple of my God**, and he will by no means go out [from it] anymore, and I* will write upon him the name*** of my God** and the name of the city of my God**, the new Jerusalem which descends out of heaven from my God**, and that new name of mine.  Let the one who has an ear hear what the spirit says to the congregations.’”

    *Jesus Christ

    **Which in litrealy rendered "the God of me."-'The NASB-NIV parallel N.T. in Gk. & Eng.' With Interliner Translated by Alfred Marshall
    ***Jehovah

     

    So we can ask again, who is Jesus talking about, as it cannot be himself"  He is talking about Almighty God, thus Jesus cannot be Almighty God!



    Edited by robin - 10 September 2008 at 1:19pm    ]]>     Wed, 10 Sep 2008 13:16:56 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=111273#111273     From where did the trinity teaching come? : robin, you are quoting complicated... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=111215#111215 Author: minuteman
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 09 September 2008 at 6:40am

     
     robin, you are quoting complicated sentenses, verses. Why don't you tell us if Jesus is God or not? Be short and smart, in plain words please.
     
     If you do not support Trinity (as I think you do not) then Jesus is not a God. Welcome now !
    ]]>     Tue, 09 Sep 2008 06:40:11 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=111215#111215     From where did the trinity teaching come? : What The Bible says as to God... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=111194#111194 Author: robin
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 08 September 2008 at 12:22pm

    What The Bible says as to God being ONE not three:-

     
    Deuteronomy 6:4-5
    "Listen, O Israel: Jehovah our God is one Jehovah. 5 And you must love Jehovah your God with all your heart and all your soul and all your vital force.
     
    Mark 12:29
    Jesus answered: "The first is, ‘Hear, O Israel, Jehovah our God is one Jehovah,
     
    1 Corinthians 8:6
    there is actually to us one God the Father, out of whom all things are, and we for him; and there is one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things are, and we through him.
     
     
    Ephesians 4:4-6
    One body there is, and one spirit, even as YOU were called in the one hope to which YOU were called; 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father . . .
    ]]>     Mon, 08 Sep 2008 12:22:10 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=111194#111194     From where did the trinity teaching come? : Originally posted by honeto Originally... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=111152#111152 Author: PattyaMainer
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 07 September 2008 at 3:23pm

    Originally posted by honeto

    Originally posted by PattyaMainer

    I John 5:7-8 states the following:
    <FONT face="Trebuchet MS"> 

    <FONT face="Trebuchet MS" size=3>For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.8And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.

     

    There are MANY other scriptures which also clearly state that Jesus, God, and the Holy Spirit are one and the same.....this is the triune Godhead.  No mention of the word trinity is mentioned in the Bible, however, it is quite clear of the intention and assertion of one God comprise of three completely separate entities. 

     

    Robin, you are trying to prove what Jehovah Witnesses believe...that Jesus is not God.  Even a good atheist knows you cannot prove a negative.  You should take a course in Quantam Physics. 

     

    God is God; therefore, He can do anything.  Even create a Trinity, which He did choose to do and which does exist.    (Oh ye of little faith...where is your faith, Robin?)  Obviously it is not in the writings of the Holy Gospels.

     

    God's Peace,

    Patty

     

    Hi Patty,

    you are right God can do anything.

    You said: "Even create a Trinity, which He did choose to do and which does exist. "

    Let me say this, what God creates is created, but God is not created. Thus the created (as you agree in this case) the Trinity, is not equal to the Creator, God Almighty even if we assume there is one.

     

    Regards,

    Hasan


    Yes, you are correct in stating that God can create anything...absolutely. That being said, He can also choose to make each separate entity of the Triune Godhead separate,yet still equal....that is exactly what He did. The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit are three in one, and each is equal to the other.

    God's Peace,
    PattyaMainer]]>     Sun, 07 Sep 2008 15:23:53 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=111152#111152     From where did the trinity teaching come? : the trinity explaind by... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=111132#111132 Author: Nazarene
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 07 September 2008 at 1:48am

    the trinity explaind by jesus

    Lection LXVI

                 Iesus Again Teacheth His Disciples
                 Concerning The Nature Of God
                          The Two In One

        1. AGAIN Jesus taught them saying, God hath raised up witnesses to the truth in every nation and every age, that all might know the will of the Eternal and do it, and after that, enter into the kingdom, to be rulers and workers with the Eternal,


        2. God is Power, Love and Wisdom, and these three are One. God is Truth, Goodness and Beauty, and these three are One.

        3. God is Justice, Knowledge and Purity, and these three are One. God is Splendour, Compassion and Holiness, and these three are One.

        4. And these four Trinities are One in the hidden Deity, the Perfect, the Infinite, the Onely.

        5. Likewise in every man who is perfected, there are three persons, that of the son, that of the spouse. and that of the father, and these three are one.

        6. So in every woman who is Perfected are there three persons, that of the daughter, that of the bride, and that of the mother and these three are one; and the man and the woman are one, even as God is One

        7. Thus it is with God the Father-Mother, in Whom is neither male nor female and in Whom is both, and each is threefold,  and all are One in the hidden Unity.

        8. Marvel not at this, for as it is above so it is below, and as it is below so it is above, and that which is on earth is so, because it is so in Heaven.

        9. Again I say unto you, I and My Bride are one, even as Maria Magdalena, whom I have chosen and sanctified unto Myself as a type, is one with Me; I and My Church are One. And the Church is the elect of humanity for the salvation of all.

        10. The Church of the first born is the Maria of God. Thus saith the Eternal, She is My Mother and she hath ever conceived Me, and brought Me forth as Her Son in every age and clime. She is My Bride, ever one in Holy Union with Me her Spouse. She is My Daughter, for she hath ever issued and proceeded from Me her Father, rejoicing in Me.

        11. And these two Trinities are One in the Eternal, and are strewn forth in each man and woman who are made perfect, ever being born of God, and rejoicing in light, ever being lifted up and made one with God, ever conceiving and bringing forth God for the salvation of the many.
     
        12. This is the Mystery of the Trinity in Humanity, and moreover in every individual child of man must be accomplished the mystery of God, ever witnessing to the light, suffering for the truth, ascending into Heaven, and sending forth the Spirit of Truth And this is the path of salvation, for the kingdom of God is within.

        13. And one said unto him, Master, when shall the kingdom come? And he answered and said, When that which is without shall be as that which is within, and that which is within shall be as that which is without, and, the male with the female, neither male nor female, but the two in One. They who have ears to hear let them hear
                             there's so much to tell,so much to talk about.
                             all my love ,leland


    Edited by Nazarene - 11 September 2008 at 6:44pm    ]]>     Sun, 07 Sep 2008 01:48:18 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=111132#111132     From where did the trinity teaching come? : Originally posted by PattyaMainerI... http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12519&PID=109568#109568 Author: robin
    Subject: 12519
    Posted: 07 August 2008 at 1:01am

    Originally posted by PattyaMainer

    I John 5:7-8 states the following:
     
    For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.8And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.
     
    There are MANY other scriptures which also clearly state that Jesus, God, and the Holy Spirit are one and the same.....this is the triune Godhead.  No mention of the word trinity is mentioned in the Bible, however, it is quite clear of the intention and assertion of one God comprise of three completely separate entities. 
     
    Robin, you are trying to prove what Jehovah Witnesses believe...that Jesus is not God.  Even a good atheist knows you cannot prove a negative.  You should take a course in Quantam Physics. 
     
    God is God; therefore, He can do anything.  Even create a Trinity, which He did choose to do and which does exist.    (Oh ye of little faith...where is your faith, Robin?)  Obviously it is not in the writings of the Holy Gospels.
     
    God's Peace,
    Patty
     
     

    Does 1 John 5:6-8 teach the Trinity doctrine?

     

    Please note the bold print and underlining in the following.   In the ‘King James Version’ of the Bible 1 John 5:6-8 reads thus:-

     

    “6 This is he that came by water and blood, even Jesus Christ; not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit that beareth witness, because the Spirit is truth.

    7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

    8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one.”

     

    The ‘Good News Bible’ at 1 John 5:6-8 reads thus:-

     

    “6 Jesus Christ is the one who came with the water of his baptism and the blood of his death. He came not only with the water, but with both the water and the blood. And the Spirit himself testifies that this is true, because the Spirit is truth.

    7 There are three witnesses:

    8 the Spirit, the water, and the blood; and all three give the same testimony.”

     

    The ‘New International Version’ at 1 John 5:6-8, excerpted from ‘Compton's Interactive Bible NIV’ reads thus:-

     

    “6 This is the one who came by water and blood--Jesus Christ. He did not come by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit who testifies, because the Spirit is the truth.

    7