Originally posted by Larry

Hasan,

   I'm confused
Larry

Originally posted by Larry

Hasan,

   I also wanted to address your question as to whether the Bible of a thousand years ago is word-for-word identical to the modern Bible?

   No, it isn't, word-for-word. Ancient writings in ancient languages cannot possibly be "word-for-word" the same because they ARE in different languages. So what do you compare them to?

   There are no actual ORIGINAL, physical remains of the Biblical text of the Bible, Old or New Testament, just as there are NO ORIGINAL COPIES OF THE QUR'AN. You base your beliefs on the work of a "committee" assembled to produce one, singular text for the Qur'an, Uthman's mushaf, at which time ANY variant copies of this Qur'an were ordered to be destroyed.

   This is not the way we deal with sacred writings in Judaism or Christianity. If we did do the same then there would be no reason AT ALL for any future research and study. The Old and New Testaments, as well as the Qur'an, were recorded in writing by people, divinely-inspired perhaps, but they are still people, and there is nothing about people which is holy or absolutely free of any error, only God is like that.

   The finding of the Dead Sea Scrolls opened new avenues of Biblical research and led to more exact translations. And Biblical research has been going on as long as the Old and New Testaments have existed, that is the basis OF Biblical research. New ancient writings continue to be found to this very day and these lead to new scholarship and translations that are more accurate then those of past centuries, the King James Bible is a good example of this.

   But, unlike in Islam, we do not see the PHYSICAL Bible as sacred in itself, it is not a holy thing in it's physical form, the holiness is in the content. Christians are used to writing notes and references onto the pages and margins of their Bibles in order to make certain concepts and points more clear or precise to them, it is not a DESECRATION of the Bible, the ideas, beliefs and teachings are the important thing, not the physical pages they are printed onto. But Muslims see their Qur'ans as holy in their physical form, which is why there is rioting throughout the Muslim world (by a small part of the population) whenever it is alleged that a Qur'an has been burned or otherwise "desecrated." This attitude toward the PHYSICAL Qur'an, could convincingly be argued is constituting shirk. Just as there are no "perfect" translations of the Qur'an into any language other than Arabic, translations will always differ from language to language. And, as I said, there is NO ORIGINAL ARABIC QUR'AN TO COMPARE TODAY'S QUR'AN WITH.

   So, if your belief is based on the idea that each and every word, IN ARABIC, is the same in all of today's Qur'ans as it has always been, then that is up to you. But if you argue that because of that "sameness" that that makes it "proof" that the Qur'an is true and perfect, then you need proof that all Qur'ans written prior to Uthman's mushaf, were true and perfect, but you have no such proof as there are NO pre-existing copies of the Qur'an in existence, they were all burned, every single one of them.

   With the exception of the "Kufan Codex" that is.

Larry

Originally posted by honeto

Larry,
so by writing a fairy tale I should assume you do not have a fourteen hundred year old (that will be from 600 AD)a copy of the Bible that is just like the one we have in circulation today!
That will confirm unless you say no there is one, and where.
If you have any questions please place them in appropriate threads, as always we will address them.
Hasan

Originally posted by honeto

Larry,
so by writing a fairy tale I should assume you do not have a fourteen hundred year old (that will be from 600 AD)a copy of the Bible that is just like the one we have in circulation today!
That will confirm unless you say no there is one, and where.
If you have any questions please place them in appropriate threads, as always we will address them.
Hasan

Originally posted by honeto



Larry,
so you admit your defeat as you fail to address my challenge to you rather you take the easy way by writing a story.
Let me repeat:
We have a Quran that is fourteen hundred years old copy, it is same in contents to those in circulation around the globe.
What I asked you and challenged you with was, can you make a similar claim for Bible. Do you have a copy of the Bible that is fourteen hundred years old and be same in contents to those in circulation around the world?
Where?
How it is that you claim so much, but cannot come up with such a simple answer to a simple question, even a fourth grader would even understand it after repeating this many times , can you?
I do not mean to offend you but let us see I will hold off my judgement about that till I see your answer, if you can do such a simple thing. Remember the answer is simple: "yes", there is and it is in such and such place, or "no" there is not a fourteen hundered year old Bible that is exactly like the one we have today!
Hasan

Originally posted by Larry



Hasan,

   If I had to base my faith on a book that was "standardized" by Uthman, using "Hafsah's
Codex" as his model, then returning the codex to Hafsah as he promised, intact and undamaged, and then Muslim "authorities" DELIBERATELY DESTROY this ORIGINAL Qur'an DECADES later, I would not feel very comfortable in my faith.
   I am still waiting to hear your "explanation" of WHY Hafsah's Codex, the ORIGINAL Qur'an, was deliberately destroyed by later Muslim "authorities after Uthman used it as his guide and returned it UNHARMED to Hafsah. After all, Hafsah was one of the "prophet's" many wives and guarded the codex jealously until her death.
   You can talk about what the "prophet" (an odd designation for someone who made absolutely NO actual "prophecies" at all, which by Biblical standards would be condemned as a "false prophet"), did or said all you want, it means nothing to me. You can quote the Qur'an a million times and it will still mean nothing to me.
   You have disrespect for my religion and I have even more disrespect for yours. So I guess that makes us even.
   I am tired of listening to the same nonsense from you about the "fact" that the Qur'an hasn't been altered in ANY way, which is absurd, since Uthman, But strangely enough, Ibn Masud and Ubayy B. Ka'ab's "Quran's" are not identical to Uthman's "mushaf." Ibn Masud's mushaf, the "Kufan Codex" still exists as does Ubayy B. Ka'ab's Qur'an that has two complete surahs, Surah Al-Khal and Surah Al-Afd, not found in the "official" version of the Qur'an.
   The words Islam, Muslim, Muhammad, Qur'an, etc. have no historical record or evidence that predates Muhammad's supposed "revelations" in the seventh century A.D. And that is a fact.
   Of the three "holy" books, the Old Testament, the New Testament and the Qur'an, it is only the Qur'an that has deep, repetitive and serious discrepancies and errors with both the Old and New Testaments. And all Muslims can say is that any part of the Old and New Testaments that they feel "support" the views of the Qur'an, is the "proof" of the truth of the Qur'an, and anything that disagrees with the Qur'an, which the Old and New Testaments do MANY times, is somehow "corrupted" by the very people who had those faiths long before Muhammad and his "revelations" came along. What a ridiculous argument that is, a rather "convenient" excuse for the discrepancies and errors of the Qur'an, wouldn't you say?
   I would simply compare and contrast the lives, teachings and actions of Jesus Christ and Muhammad to see who represents truth and holiness. Jesus Christ didn't rob peaceful Meccan caravans, Jesus Christ didn't acquiesce to the murders of 800 Quraysa Jews of Medina, Jesus Christ did not charge "protection money" from conquered nations, simply for them to continue in their own faiths, even though, supposedly, "There is no compulsion in religion, truth stands out clear from error." Jesus Christ didn't have multiple wives and concubines, specifically allowed to him by one of his "revelations," or marry a six year old Aisha, daughter of one of his "companions" and then consummate the marriage when she was nine years old, Jesus Christ did not have "revelations" from God Himself that dictated the amount of war booty and protection money that was to be paid to the "messenger" and his immediate family (the actual amount was 20%). Jesus Christ didn't refer to a blind man (Umayr Ibn Adi), who murdered a woman suckling her baby (Asma Bint Marwan) because she made fun of the "messenger" in poems, Umayr "basir" "the seeing" The "messenger" derisively said that "No two goats will butt together about her." Etc., etc., etc.
   If THIS is your idea of the perfect and "ideal" man, then you have much lower standards for that designation than Christians and Jews have.
   So, you can denigrate my faith all you want and insult me with snide remarks, go for it. I could really care less. I have read the entire Qur'an here on this site and I found it repetitive, verbose, incoherent at times, repeating the same message thousands of times (believe in Allah and the "messenger" and do whatever they "messenger" tells you to do or you will burn in hell forever). The Qur'an makes mistakes about people named in the Bible, confuses one person for another, events in the Bible are altered, locations are changed from Israel to Mecca (such as "Ibrahim and Ishmael" building the original Kaaba, even though Abraham never set foot in Arabia (when he would have been over 100 years old, no less), etc.
   I prefer the grandeur of the Bible, the historical accuracy of the Bible, the seamless way that the Old and New Testaments fit together, the truth of REAL Prophets and the fulfillment of their prophecies, The beauty of the Psalms, the beauty of the Song of Solomon, the EXTENSIVE and COMPLETE geneaologies (that never mention "Muhammad" at all), of the early Patriarchs, the histories in I-II Samuel, I-II Kings, Chronicles, etc., and the message and narrative that flows seamlessly through both the Old and New Testaments. The prophecy of the Messiah and it's fulfillment in Jesus Christ, God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit, in ONE, The "Holy Trinity." And, Jesus Christ makes it CRYSTAL CLEAR that He and God are ONE with the Holy Spirit.
   So, unless you have something NEW to say, I would suggest you keep it to yourself, because it has bored me to tears.

Larry

Originally posted by honeto

Larry,
stop playing du--,
Facts are facts, for fourteen hundred years the Quran has not been rewritten, altered, any part removed or added nor changed. That is a fact.
You cannot match that with any of your books you follow. That is a fact.
You say, that the Prophet (pbuh) has copied from your NT and OT books to make the Quran. If that was the case, it will show that in it, it does not. The Quran teaches us that Jesus was the Messiah, Jews do not believe that they called him names I do not want to repeat as they are disrespectful to him, while I respect and love Jesus (pbuh). NT according to you teaches Trinity. The Prophet (pbuh) taught that it is not true. There is not such thing as Trinity, it is an invention and offense to God, who is One, and Jesus and the Spirit are under His command and they serve Him, His creations.

So, in plain English you have no face with that truth in front of you to deny it.

On top, we have many many verses we have gone over thousands of times to show you that within your book there is a ton of inconsistencies. And that is a fact.
you have no place to hide with those facts shining in front of you, choice is yours!
Hasan

Originally posted by honeto



At this point you say you guess, well your guess is just that, a guess. And you are wrong again. Keep guessing, at least you will have hope with guessing.

************************************************
Hasan,

   If you understood English better, you would know that the use of the phrase, "I guess," is as a satirical response to your ridiculous statements and non-answers. When confronted with uncomfortable facts, you simply make a "statement", just like the one above, and refuse to answer. That is just another example of your endless evasions from having to explain the many "irregularities" in the Qur'an, especially when it is contrasted with the Old and New Testaments. But, as I have said before, you have every right to believe whatever you want, but just because you "believe" that the Qur'an is actually the "Third Testament" does not make it true. Between the Old and New Testaments and the Qur'an, the Qur'an is the only "book" that differs sharply and has manifold problems and discrepancies with both the Old and New Testaments. If you want to pretend that this "situation" occurs because the Old and New Testaments are "corrupted," then that is your problem, not mine. And, by the way, you accuse the Jews and Christians of "corrupting" their own holy texts. But, "corruption" is the only "excuse" that can be used by Muslims to "explain" the many problems and discrepancies of the Qur'an versus the Bible.
   As I have said before, Judaism and Christianity were existing hundreds, in some cases thousands, of years before Muhammad had his "revelations" that now deny the very same "sources" that he used from the Old and New Testaments.

Larry

Hasan

Originally posted by honeto

Kish,
if you are asking who was killed instead of Jesus? I do not know because we only know that they did not kill Jesus. So I will leave it there and not speculate. But Jesus was raised by God Almighty to Himself. They did not kill him. It may be in their plans, but God's plan was to save him, and God is the best of planners and the one who never fails to execute a plan.

************************************************
   So, I guess some unsuspecting innocent man was substituted for Jesus Christ by Allah so that Christ could be "raised" by God and "saved" from death by crucifixion? There are a number of ancient sources that reported that Jesus was crucified during the reign of Emperor Tiberius by Pontius Pilate, the Roman Governor of Judea. But the Qur'an is the only "source" that claims that this crucifixion of Jesus Christ did not occur. Just another example of the Qur'an having major difficulties when it attempts to insert it's own views and beliefs into the historical narrative.
**************************************************

As far as Jew killing him or the Romans, well the Romans were the rulers but those who framed him were the Jews. Just like today as they control the "Empire" and end up getting what they want through manipulation, they did the same then.

**************************************************
   Oh yes, I see now, it was the "Jews" who "controlled" the Roman Empire just as they "control" the earth today and get what they want by "manipulating" everyone else in the world? Sorry, Hasan, but your antisemitism is showing (even though you are hardly the first Muslim to have antisemitic attitudes). So, in your belief, Jews "framed" Jesus to the Romans, who then "crucified" a "substitute" Jesus, so that everyone would THINK that it really WAS Jesus who was crucified? This shows exactly why the Qur'an has to bend and twist to "fit" itself into an ancient known event, and then deny that the "event" ever even happened!
****************************************************


No I am not a hypocrite because I fear God's judgment nad cannot intentionally say something that is not true.
You will come up with your objections, but let us say just to prove my point. Even after the final compilation of the Quran, it has been fourteen hundred years. And it has never went through any rewriting.

****************************************************
   Well, Hasan, that is rather a "slick" interpretation of the events, isn't it? You say that AFTER THE FINAL COMPILATION OF THE QUR'AN, there were never any "rewritings" of the Qur'an.
   But it is exactly the fact that there WAS A "FINAL COMPILATION" of the Qur'an, after which ALL variant texts of the Qur'an were DESTROYED BY BURNING, that resulted in today's "unchanging" Qur'an.
   There are 66 books in the Bible and never have the Old or New Testaments EVER been destroyed, after a "final" compilation, so that all copies of the Bible are exactly alike, and this would "prove" the Bible's authenticity?
   There are no "pre-burning party" copies of the Qur'an extant, making the job of "proving" that the FINAL COMPILATION "Qur'an" is IDENTICAL to those "other" Qur'ans, that were detroyed by Muslim authorities, actually impossible.
   And the fact that Muslim "authorities" destroyed the ORIGINAL Qur'anic text, compiled within two years of Muhammad's death, "Hafsah's Codex," DECADES after Uthman's "compilation" (a "compilation" in which Uthman used the VERY SAME HAFSAH'S CODEX as the model and then returned this original Qur'an to Hafsah unharmed and complete) shows that there was something indeed that needed to be concealed by later Muslim "authorities," who needed to wait until after the death of Hafsah to destroy her "Qur'an" that she guarded so well while she was alive. Utter and complete nonsense!
***********************************************

In Christianity and Judaism you even don't have that? let alone to have something in its original language,
simple as that!

*************************************************
   You're right, Hasan, "we" Christians and Jews do not have a single "official" Old and New Testaments based on preceding "versions" of the Bible which were then deliberately destroyed by Christian and Jewish authorities.
   And, there are more than one ancient languages that were used by the Biblical writers who used Aramaic and ancient Greek in their works.
   But, the idea that the Qur'an, is WRITTEN IN IT'S ORIGINAL "PURE" ARABIC is simply not supportable by the evidence. Even though the Qur'an is supposedly "preserved on tablets in heaven," that has existed since the beginning of the world, the Qur'an contains many foreign words in Hebrew, Babylonian, Assyrian, Aramaic, Greek, Ethiopic, etc. And these words are not merely "words that don't exist in Arabic", they are actual foreign words within the text that do have Arabic equivalents. For such a "perfect" work from God Himself, the Qur'an, strangely, has many structural and linguistic errors within it's text.
************************************************

Fictions and fairy tales ad nauseum!

Larry

Hasan

Originally posted by kish

Why are Muslims like yourself afraid to answer the question if this is your belief? Was it Jesus or Judas on the cross (stake) that said these words?

Originally posted by honeto


Kish,
you got to be out of your mind with those assumptions of yours you call belief.
Jews tried to kill Jesus, they thought they have put him on the cross as they tried to challenge God that if he was the true Messiah, God will save him. In fact God did save him. God raised him up to Himself. What is so hard to understand about that?

****************************************

   And, Hasan, what I would like to "understand" is WHO is the person who Allah supposedly "substituted" for Jesus Christ when he "removed" Jesus Christ from the crucifixion "scene?" And, by the way, it was not the Jews who killed Christ, it was the Roman Governor of Judea, Pontius Pilate.

******************************************

Also, the Quran is the only book still in its original language the way it was revealed still with us today. In fourteen hundred years it has never been rewritten, changed or altered. Unfortunately, your book cannot claim, cannot even come 10% close to that. We don't have its original, you even don't know what was its original language or contents. It contradicts it's own contents. What could be more proof of it's alterations by man than that? unless you believe in fairy tales and fictions and you can keep dreaming, or keep telling yourself that if you have hope in deceiving yourself!

****************************************

   As usual, Hasan, you are a hypocrite of the highest order. Muslims DO NOT HAVE THE ORIGINAL QUR'AN EITHER. The "origin al" Qur'an, Hafsah's Codex, was deliberately destroyed by Muslim "authorities" DECADES after Uthman "standardized" the form of the Qur'an. Uthman used Hafsah's Codex in order to prepare "four perfect copies" and then returned the Codex to Hafsah unharmed and undamaged. Why would ANYONE decide to destroy their "origin al" holy text, compiled just two years after the death of Muhammad and kept in safety by HIS OWN WIFE?
   In Christianity and Judaism, we don't destroy ANY of our early texts or writings and we didn't have a "burning party" to accept one VERSION of our Old and New Testaments and destroy any other Biblical sources that would have discrepancies with the "Final Version" of our holy texts.
   If anyone believes in "faity tales and fictions" it is you, Hasan. In Judaism and Christianity God does NOT make "mistakes' EVER, becasuse He is God. But, the Qur'an has to have an "explanation" for it's many errors and discrepancies. This is shown in Qur'an 2:106;

   "None of Our revelations do We abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We SUBSTITUTE something BETTER or SIMILAR; knowest thou not that Allah hath power over all things?" Something "better" than previous DIVINE REVELATION? It is kind of like when Muhammad changed the direction of the "Qibla" from Jerusalem to Mecca. He had an "explanation" for that change of "revelation" with another REVELATION, convenient, was it not? The Qur'an announces that this momentous change was simply a "test" for Muslims. Another discrepancy in the Qur'an, and there are even more. The vastly changing ideas and commands from "God" to the Muslims as to how to deal with and see the "Peoples of the Book." In some "revelations" they are the same as Muslims in the eyes of God. But in others, Muslims are commanded not to make friends of them, that "they" weill never achieve heaven like Muslims, etc., etc., etc.

   Fairy tales and fictions, indeed!!

Larry

*****************************************

Hasan

Originally posted by honeto

Larry,
I agree we all have different understanding of things.
You can keep singing the doctrine of Trinity, but you cannot answer a simple question.
Did Moses knew/taught/believed in Trinity?
Can you answer that?
Hasan

Originally posted by Kish



Of course you will not answer because you have no answer as I have been saying all along. All you have is allegations and here-say. You assume because of your misguidance and what you have been told to believe but I do not blame you unless you fail to take responsibility for not knowing.

Furthermore, the Gospel does not teach God is part of a trinity and never have, nor do we. What people choose to believe and teach like yourself is your business. But what the Holy Scriptures teach is another.

You probably should look up the word Trinity and find out what it means and when it actually started before you start assuming again.

But at least try to answer my questions because when you don't it shows how much you really don't know and you just believe and follow what people tell you without finding out yourself.

With that being said, prey for help yourself first and then maybe you can help others.

But in order for your prayers to be heard they must be in the name of Jesus.

(John 14:6) Jesus said to him: “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.

Regarding the message of Muhammad . . .

(Revelation 22:18) “I am bearing witness to everyone that hears the words of the prophecy of this scroll: If anyone (Like Muhammad)makes an addition (Quran) to these things (Holy Scriptures), God will add to him the plagues that are written in this scroll (Revelation)

Kish
   

Originally posted by honeto

Kish,
I do not need to pay attention to those who reject God as one.

   All Christians believe in one God, so you're not "special" in that way.

I am safe that way.

   We Christians feel safe in our faith also.


God of Moses was One God.

I agree

God of David was One God.

I agree

God of Jesus was One God.

   I agree, but Jesus was not an ordinary person like Moses, David or Muhammad. Jesus Christ IS part of, and of the same substance as, God Himself. Hence the name Emmanuel "God with Us."


God of Mohammed (pbut)was One God.

   I agree. But the God of Islam is NOT the same God that the Jews and Christians worship. Even though the Muslims hijacked large parts of Jewish and Christian belief and added their own "revelations" and then declared that Islam came BEFORE the Old and New Testaments, and that all Old Testament prophets and Patriarchs were not Jews but were, in fact, "actually" Muslims! And then the Muslims claimed that the Old and New Testaments were "corrupted" by the very people who followed these beliefs long before Islam came along.

   Very "convenient" beliefs for the Muslims I would say! How absurd!

Moses never claimed nor preached Trinity, did he?

   No, he did not.

David never claimed nor preached Trinity, did he?

   No, he did not.

How come Jesus could preach Trinity when he as following David and Moses, was he not a follower of the OT, whom you claim and call a Jew?

   Moses and David lived CENTURIES before the birth of Jesus Christ, so how would they know of the Trinity? And Jesus was not only a follower of the Old Testament, but the fulfiller of all prophecy in the Old Testament as the Messiah who was prophesied centuries before. Jesus was a Jew, His mother was a Jew, His stepfather was a Jew and his followers were all Jews. But Jesus brought the New Testament into being. The Old Testament was all about prophecy and the New Testament of Jesus Christ was all about fulfillment of those prophecies.

Mohammed (pbuh)never preached Trinity.

   Well, the last time I checked, Muhammad was NOT a Christian, so it is hardly likely that he would preach about the Trinity.

So, do I need to say anything else, I think not.
You have no answer to the above. You can never have. But what you write is mare denials and falsehood, and you yourself provide evidence against yourself.

   Well, that's your right to believe anything you want, just don't expect Christians to follow a "repackaged", seventh century pagan Arab religion as you do.

   The chief god of the Kaaba was Allah (or Hubal), or "Al-Ilah" (the deity) and one of the original 360 pagan idols in the Kaaba, the "Black Stone", was not destroyed by Muhammad with the rest of the pagan idols, but is built into the corner of the Kaaba itself and is highly venerated by Muslims to this day (the pagan Arab "black stone" idol becomes the "Right Hand of God in Islam), and they try to kiss or even just touch it with their hands or even a stick during the Hajj (I thought that was something that is called "shirk?") If Allah is ONE SUPREME AND ALL-POWERFUL GOD, SHARING NOTHING OF HIS HOLINESS WITH ANYTHING, ESPECIALLY A FORMER PAGAN IDOL) then why do the Muslims still venerate this former pagan idol? And it is strange that you NEVER address any of the questions posed to you concerning the life and actions of the "prophet" Muhammad when he was alive.

   And, we Christians find it difficult to understand what Qur'an 2:106 says;

   "None of Our revelations do we abrogate or cause to be forgotten, but We substitute something better or similar, Knowest thou not that Allah hath power over all things?"

   I would think that if Allah "hath power over all things" He would not need to change previous "revelations" from Himself to Muhammad. Why would it be necessary for Allah to "substitute something better or similar" for "divine" revelation to His own "prophet" Muhammad? In the Bible there is no similar statement that would permit God to "substitute something better or similar" than His original revelations. God does not need to "fix" errors in His divine wisdom because there are NO errors in anything coming directly from God to mankind. That is the difference between the God of Jews and Christians and the God of Islam.

May God guide you, now you passed the stage of effort, only prayers can help you. And I pray for you, your guidance toward the truth.

   Appreciate the prayers, but do not need them to know the "truth," the truth of Jesus Christ as the Son of God. God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit, the Holy Trinity (even though you do not understand the doctrine of the Trinity and see it as three separate "gods.")

   Oh, yeah, and you never did expalin why that the Qur'an, which is supposedly written "on tablets preserved" in heaven, and in pure Arabic, have foreign words in it's text? There are Greek words, Aramaic words, Assyrian words, Babylonians words and names, Ethiopic words, etc. And these are not in foreign translations of the Qur'an, these words are part of the original Arabic Qur'an as it is written today.

Larry

Hasan

Originally posted by kish

Why are Muslims like yourself afraid to answer the question if this is your belief?
Was it Jesus or Judas on the cross (stake) that said these words?

Originally posted by honeto



Kish,
please learn to read. I have answered all what you keep asking again, have you run out of objection so you keep repeating the same.

   "Repeating the same" points? Sounds like a perfect description of your "points", Hasan. You simply repeat your beliefs time and again expecting others to accept "your" beliefs and acknowledge that the Quran is truly the Word of God, which it is not.

The Bible quote I am using to show you is for you who only take Bible as authentic.

   So, the Biblical "quote" you make is taken from the Bible ONLY because Kish believes in that Bible? Another example of your "selective" use of Biblical quotes, if it supports Islam and the Quran it is accepted as absolute proof of the authenticity of Islam and the Qur'an, but, if the Bible CONTRADICTS what Islam and the Qur'an believe, which happens VERY OFTEN, then that Biblical text is simply dismissed as "corrupt."?

For me it is a man made version of what God revealed. It is no longer direct word of God, since it's original text do not exist. And what is left of it with us is only copy of a copy or part of a part and so on. Thus we cannot take it as a guide to govern our lives. Simple as that.

   Sorry, Hasan, but it is not "Simple as that" to reject the Bible, the Old and New Testaments correlate almost perfectly, the only text that has serious differences with both the Old and New Testaments is the Qur'an. And speaking of man-made, the Qur'an itself was edited and finalized into it's present form by Uthman, who used "Hafsah's Codex" as his guide in making four "perfect copies."

   This same codex was later burned by order of Muslim authorities.

   And, now we see that the "original text" of the Qur'an does not exist either. It was deliberately destroyed by Muslim authorities, even though Uthman used "Hafsah's Codex when he "standardized" the Qur'an and then returned the ORIGINAL Qur'an to Hafsah, unharmed. Very strange to see a religion destroy it's original holy text...that is, unless there was something to hide. But you can continue to claim that the only differences between Hafsah's Codex and Uthman's standardization, were vowel and diacritical markings. So I guess being a "copy of a copy" applies to the Qur'an as well.

   But, since the original Qur'an was deliberately destroyed by Muslims, there is nothing that can be proven either pro or con on the argument that the Qur'an as it exists today is the same Qur'an that was preserved in Hafsah's ORIGINAL Qur'an. Evidently there were no problems in Hafsah's Codex as this exact codex was used to compile the "true" Qur'an.

   So I guess this means that Muslims can accept and use the Qur'an, which is a copy of a copy, to govern your lives? Because if Uthman's standardization came straight from Uafsah's Codex, why would the original Qur'an need to be destroyed?

Since you still see it as a guide and believe it to be so, I would imagine you will be sincere in that! If you are, it is only going against your own argument in this case.
We saw that according to it, Jesus did indeed called God 'Allah'. And that is only to show those of you who deny that God is same as Allah. Not only Muslims serve and worship Allah, but according to you book even Jesus did. And we Muslims claim all of God's prophets did before.

   There are NO references in the Old and New Testaments that use the word "Allah." Unless, that is, if one were to try and "prove" that point by using word games or using the Qur'an as the source of that belief. Or by saying thast since the "Arabic Bible" uses the word "Allah" then all Bibles must say so, which they do not. The name "Allah" was applied to a pre-Islamic deity in the pagan Arab religion.

   You "Muslims" can CLAIM all of the prophets of God, that were first written of in the Old and New Testaments, but that does not mean that your claims and beliefs are true. Islam takes both the Old and New Testaments, extracts whatever you Muslims see as supporting Islam, and then discards anything in the Old and New Testaments that DO NOT support Islam and the Qur'an. Simple as that.

   The real truth is that the Old Testament and the New Testament were written thousands of years, in the case of the Old Testament, and hundreds of years, in the case of the New Testament, before Muhammad had his "revelations" and founded Islam. Only in Islam is it needed to explain why Islam, which claims to have "always" existed, even before the Old and New Testaments, was not in physical existence prior to the 7th century AD.

   And why, if the Qur'an was exactly the same as a "tablet preserved" in heaven, would Uthman need to rely on Zayd ibn Thabit's "version" to standardize the Qur'an? And why are there foreign words (Hebrew, Aramaic, Assyrian, Greek, Ethiopic, etc.) in the Qur'an which describes itself as written in "pure Arabic?"

   There are simply too many problems with the Qur'an for me to consider it as a direct "revelation" from God. If it truly came directly from God then there would be perfection in the Qur'an, which, as we know, is far from "perfect." Even it's very form and structure changes over the 23 years that Muhammad had his "revelations."

Larry
Hasan

Originally posted by honeto

We saw that according to it, Jesus did indeed called God 'Allah'.

Originally posted by Kish


You also do not say that your Prophet WAS put on the cross (stake) to die as the other prophets and scriptures say he would. Perhaps you forgot what the original topic was so here it is again Hasan and ice, was it Jesus that said and I quote you . . . Are you now agreeing that it was Jesus hanging there crying out "Eloh" or Allah and not an imposter like Judas which Muslims assume? It's either yes, no or you don't know. Read your own quote again, it sounds like you are agreeing after all since you are saying it was Jesus words, right? Or do you think it was Jesus words and Judas body?

Originally posted by honeto

Second, Muslims claim that God did not let the Jews kill Jesus (pbuh), we do not say that he was not put on the cross.
Those are two different things.

Originally posted by honeto

Jesus indeed cried to his Lord as "Allah" which is spelled in modern Bibles as "Eloh" with "i" which stands for "Oh" in Jesus'
native Aramaic.

Originally posted by honeto

Larry, Kish and the like,
you have only shown how small and limited your sight is otherwise you would have not said what you did. Rejoice for your lack of understanding and blinds you all have put over your sight. It only make you look like little ones.

   Your statement that "Larry, Kish and the like" should "rejoice" for our "lack of understanding.." Lack of understanding of what, Islam? I think I understand Islam enough to know that, in my opinion, not only is it a non-Abrahamic (Even though the Qur'an takes the name and personage of Abraham straight out of the Old Testament) religion, but not a legitimate religion at all.

First your Oops actually goes perfect for yourself, wonder how?

First, we are showing you a quote from your Bible, not because we need a proof, but you.

   Asd usual, when you or some other Muslims want to use the Bible to quote anything that you feel supports your religious beliefs or opinions, you seem to have a knowledge of which Biblical quotes are "uncorrupted", (and therefore useful) to you, but reject any Biblical passages that CONTRADICT the teachings of the Qur'an as "corrupted" text. A very "selective" form of belief I would say. I don't need to play such word games with my Bible.

And according to that, Jesus indeed cried to his Lord as "Allah" which is spelled in modern Bibles as "Eloh" with "i" which stands for "Oh" in Jesus' native Aramaic. If there were tape recorders at that time, his cries would be heard as you hear a Muslim calls upon God, "Allah".

   "According to that (my Bible), Jesus indeed cried to (H)is Lord as "Allah" which is spelled in modern Bibles as "Eloh with the "i" which stands for "Oh" in Jesus' native Aramaic. If there were "tape recorders" at that time, his cries could be heard as you hear a Muslim calls upon God, "Allah."

   My Bible says clearly:

   Matthew 27:46;

   "And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is, My God, My God, why have you forsaken Me?"

   According to you, it should be written "El" for God and "i" for "my." (Not quite "Allah" I would say)

   Mark 15:34-35;

   34. "And at the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice saying, Eloi, Eloi, lama sabachthani?" which is translated, "My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?"
   35. "Some of those who stood by, when they heard that, said, "Look, He is calling for Elijah!"

   So then I guess it should be written, "Elo, Elo,
(which, like "Allah" has two syllables, and includes the letter "L", which is as close as it comes to "Allah," this is your proof?) lama sabachthani?" according to your theory?

   But some the people that were there thought He was calling on "Elijah" which would support the Biblical text because "Eli" or "Eloi" was heard by "some" of the witnesses as "Eli(jah). In that case the "i" was thought by some to be part of Elijah's name, not a separate word meaning "My." I don't think that "Allah" would be thought of as the word that Jesus used by some of the eyewitnesses.

   But I suppose that you simply believe that "Eli" or "Eloi" sounds enough like "Al-lah" to prove that Jesus did call on "Allah" specifically? Yeah, right.

   It is amazing how far SOME Muslims will try and bend and distort Biblical text to support their beliefs.

Second, Muslims claim that God did not let the Jews kill Jesus (pbuh), we do not say that he was not put on the cross. Those are two different things.
So sorry to bust your bubble, again.

     Sorry but I don't see how my "bubble" was burst by you or someone else.

   Let's get this straight.

   You say, "Muslims claim that God did not let the Jews kill Jesus (pbuh), we DO NOT say that he WAS NOT put on the cross. Those are two different things."

   So, you are saying that Jesus WAS in fact put on the cross, but that He (God) did not let the Jews kill Jesus?" Did "Allah" exchange another person for Jesus while He (Jesus) was on the cross?

   And, by the way, WHO WAS THE PERSON THAT ALLAH SUBSTITUTED FOR JESUS SO THAT IT WOULD APPEAR THAT THEY CRUCIFIED JESUS?

On the subject of Allah or God, please start a separate thread and we will be glad to answer your question, this is not the thread for it.

   I have no intention of starting another thread on "Allah" or "God," because I do not believe that they are the same God. As I have said before, I do not believe that "Allah" is the same God as the God of the Jews and Christians. I believe that "Allah" is a deity that emerged out of the pre-Islamic Arabic pagan religious traditions and that the Qur'an was later "grafted" by Muhammad's "revelations" onto already existing religious texts, the Old and New Testaments.

   So, what would be the point in a new thread? Just another endless argument that changes no one's minds.

Larry, do you not read this thread deals with Jesus and if he was crucified. So if you want to talk about God, Allah, Dios being same, it will not be appropriate to discuss it here on this thread, just start a new thread with the topic you have in mind. Trust me we have the answers for you.

   "Trust me we have the answers for you!"

   Answers from where, the Qur'an? Why on earth would I ever believe anything that comes out of the Qur'an?

   I would rather read the main two "sources" of the Qur'an, the Old and New Testaments, whose teachings, stories and persons, were, "borrowed" wholesale for inclusion into the "new" book, the Qur'an.

Larry

Hasan

Originally posted by honeto



Larry, Kish and the like,
you have only shown how small and limited your sight is otherwise you would have not said what you did. Rejoice for your lack of understanding and blinds you all have put over your sight. It only make you look like little ones.
First your Oops actually goes perfect for yourself, wonder how?
First, we are showing you a quote from your Bible, not because we need a proof, but you. And according to that, Jesus indeed cried to his Lord as "Allah" which is spelled in modern Bibles as "Eloh" with "i" which stands for "Oh" in Jesus' native Aramaic. If there were tape recorders at that time, his cries would be heard as you hear a Muslim calls upon God, "Allah".
Second, Muslims claim that God did not let the Jews kill Jesus (pbuh), we do not say that he was not put on the cross. Those are two different things.
So sorry to bust your bubble, again.
On the subject of Allah or God, please start a separate thread and we will be glad to answer your question, this is not the thread for it.
Hasan

Originally posted by honeto



Larry, Kish and the like,
you have only shown how small and limited your sight is otherwise you would have not said what you did. Rejoice for your lack of understanding and blinds you all have put over your sight. It only make you look like little ones.

Yeah, yeah, same old thing.


First your Oops actually goes perfect for yourself, wonder how?

Yes, I do.


First, we are showing you a quote from your Bible, not because we need a proof, but you. And according to that, Jesus indeed cried to his Lord as "Allah" which is spelled in modern Bibles as "Eloh" with "i" which stands for "Oh" in Jesus' native Aramaic. If there were tape recorders at that time, his cries would be heard as you hear a Muslim calls upon God, "Allah".
Second, Muslims claim that God did not let the Jews kill Jesus (pbuh), we do not say that he was not put on the cross. Those are two different things.

   Oh, I see, Allah "allowed" Jesus Christ to be "put on the cross" but that He didn't die from being crucified? Did Allah magically, after allowing his "prophet" Jesus to be nailed to a cross, suddenly comes to His aid and removes him from the cross? How exactly was this "feat" accomplished, according to Muslims? And, who was the person that was supposedly "substituted" for Jesus on the cross? And, by the way, the Jews did not kill Jesus, Roman troops did.


So sorry to bust your bubble, again.

   You didn't "bust" my bubble, you admitted that Jesus was nailed to the cross, but provide no "explanation" for how Jesus got off of that cross. This is typical of the convolutions in your belief that you have to indulge in to maintain "your" version of what happened to Jesus on the cross. The Qur'an has no answer to this specific point of what happened to Jesus on the day that He was crucified, it just maintains that Jesus was not crucified.


On the subject of Allah or God, please start a separate thread and we will be glad to answer your question, this is not the thread for it.
Hasan

Originally posted by kish

If the God of Jesus and of Abraham, Isaac andJacob is the same as Muhammad’s god you should not have a hard time showing andproving to everyone with historical and archeological references and evidence NOTWITH LINKS when the earliest use of that name was dated, by whom and where? If Allahis truly the name of the God of Moses and the Prophets this should be your easiest TASK!!!

Originally posted by honeto



Larry, Kish and the like,
you have only shown how small and limited your sight is otherwise you would have not said what you did. Rejoice for your lack of understanding and blinds you all have put over your sight. It only make you look like little ones.
First your Oops actually goes perfect for yourself, wonder how?
First, we are showing you a quote from your Bible, not because we need a proof, but you. And according to that, Jesus indeed cried to his Lord as "Allah" which is spelled in modern Bibles as "Eloh" with "i" which stands for "Oh" in Jesus' native Aramaic. If there were tape recorders at that time, his cries would be heard as you hear a Muslim calls upon God, "Allah".
Second, Muslims claim that God did not let the Jews kill Jesus (pbuh), we do not say that he was not put on the cross. Those are two different things.
So sorry to bust your bubble, again.
On the subject of Allah or God, please start a separate thread and we will be glad to answer your question, this is not the thread for it.
Hasan

Originally posted by Kish

<!--[if gte mso 9]><>
<o:OfficeSettings>
<o:RelyOnVML/>
<o:AllowPNG/>
</o:OfficeSettings>
</><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><>
<w:Word>
<w:View>Normal</w:View>
<w:Zoom>0</w:Zoom>
<w:TrackMoves/>
<w:Trackatting/>
<w:PunctuationKerning/>
<w:ValidateAgainstSchemas/>
<w:SaveIfInvalid>false</w:SaveIfInvalid>
<w:IgnoreMixedContent>false</w:IgnoreMixedContent>
<w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>false</w:AlwaysShowPlaceholderText>
<w:DonotPromoteQF/>
<w:LidThemeOther>EN-US</w:LidThemeOther>
<w:LidThemeAsian>X-NONE</w:LidThemeAsian>
<w:LidThemeComplex>X-NONE</w:LidThemeComplex>
<w:Compatibility>
   <w:BreakWrappedTables/>
   <w:SnapToGridInCell/>
   <w:WrapTextWithPunct/>
   <w:UseAsianBreakRules/>
   <w:DontGrowAutofit/>
   <w:SplitPgBreakAndark/>
   <w:DontVertAlignCellWithSp/>
   <w:DontBreakConstrainedForcedTables/>
   <w:DontVertAlignInTxbx/>
   <w:Word11KerningPairs/>
   <w:CachedColBalance/>
</w:Compatibility>
<m:mathPr>
   <m:mathFont m:val="Cambria Math"/>
   <m:brkBin m:val="before"/>
   <m:brkBinSub m:val="--"/>
   <m:smallFrac m:val="off"/>
   <m:dispDef/>
   <m:lMargin m:val="0"/>
   <m:rMargin m:val="0"/>
   <m:defJc m:val="centerGroup"/>
   <m:wrapIndent m:val="1440"/>
   <m:intLim m:val="subSup"/>
   <m:naryLim m:val="undOvr"/>
</m:mathPr></w:Word>
</><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 9]><>
<w:LatentStyles DefLockedState="false" DefUnhideWhenUsed="true"
DefSemi="true" DefQat="false" DefPriority="99"
LatentStyleCount="267">
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="0" Semi="false"
   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Qat="true" Name="Normal"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="9" Semi="false"
   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Qat="true" Name="ing 1"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="9" Qat="true" Name="ing 2"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="9" Qat="true" Name="ing 3"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="9" Qat="true" Name="ing 4"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="9" Qat="true" Name="ing 5"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="9" Qat="true" Name="ing 6"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="9" Qat="true" Name="ing 7"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="9" Qat="true" Name="ing 8"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="9" Qat="true" Name="ing 9"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="39" Name="toc 1"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="39" Name="toc 2"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="39" Name="toc 3"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="39" Name="toc 4"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="39" Name="toc 5"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="39" Name="toc 6"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="39" Name="toc 7"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="39" Name="toc 8"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="39" Name="toc 9"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="35" Qat="true" Name="caption"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="10" Semi="false"
   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Qat="true" Name="Title"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="1" Name="Default Paragraph Font"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="11" Semi="false"
   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Qat="true" Name="Subtitle"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="22" Semi="false"
   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Qat="true" Name="Strong"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="20" Semi="false"
   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Qat="true" Name="Emphasis"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="59" Semi="false"
   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Table Grid"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Placeholder Text"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="1" Semi="false"
   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Qat="true" Name="No Spacing"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="60" Semi="false"
   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Light Shading"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="61" Semi="false"
   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Light List"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="62" Semi="false"
   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Light Grid"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="63" Semi="false"
   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Shading 1"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="64" Semi="false"
   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Shading 2"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="65" Semi="false"
   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium List 1"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="66" Semi="false"
   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium List 2"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="67" Semi="false"
   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Grid 1"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="68" Semi="false"
   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Grid 2"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="69" Semi="false"
   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Grid 3"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="70" Semi="false"
   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Dark List"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="71" Semi="false"
   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Colorful Shading"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="72" Semi="false"
   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Colorful List"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="73" Semi="false"
   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Colorful Grid"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="60" Semi="false"
   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Light Shading Accent 1"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="61" Semi="false"
   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Light List Accent 1"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="62" Semi="false"
   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Light Grid Accent 1"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="63" Semi="false"
   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Shading 1 Accent 1"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="64" Semi="false"
   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Shading 2 Accent 1"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="65" Semi="false"
   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium List 1 Accent 1"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Revision"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="34" Semi="false"
   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Qat="true" Name="List Paragraph"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="29" Semi="false"
   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Qat="true" Name="Quote"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="30" Semi="false"
   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Qat="true" Name="Intense Quote"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="66" Semi="false"
   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium List 2 Accent 1"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="67" Semi="false"
   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Grid 1 Accent 1"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="68" Semi="false"
   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Grid 2 Accent 1"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="69" Semi="false"
   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Grid 3 Accent 1"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="70" Semi="false"
   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Dark List Accent 1"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="71" Semi="false"
   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Colorful Shading Accent 1"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="72" Semi="false"
   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Colorful List Accent 1"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="73" Semi="false"
   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Colorful Grid Accent 1"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="60" Semi="false"
   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Light Shading Accent 2"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="61" Semi="false"
   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Light List Accent 2"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="62" Semi="false"
   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Light Grid Accent 2"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="63" Semi="false"
   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Shading 1 Accent 2"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="64" Semi="false"
   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Shading 2 Accent 2"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="65" Semi="false"
   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium List 1 Accent 2"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="66" Semi="false"
   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium List 2 Accent 2"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="67" Semi="false"
   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Grid 1 Accent 2"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="68" Semi="false"
   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Grid 2 Accent 2"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="69" Semi="false"
   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Grid 3 Accent 2"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="70" Semi="false"
   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Dark List Accent 2"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="71" Semi="false"
   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Colorful Shading Accent 2"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="72" Semi="false"
   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Colorful List Accent 2"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="73" Semi="false"
   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Colorful Grid Accent 2"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="60" Semi="false"
   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Light Shading Accent 3"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="61" Semi="false"
   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Light List Accent 3"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="62" Semi="false"
   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Light Grid Accent 3"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="63" Semi="false"
   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Shading 1 Accent 3"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="64" Semi="false"
   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Shading 2 Accent 3"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="65" Semi="false"
   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium List 1 Accent 3"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="66" Semi="false"
   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium List 2 Accent 3"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="67" Semi="false"
   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Grid 1 Accent 3"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="68" Semi="false"
   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Grid 2 Accent 3"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="69" Semi="false"
   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Grid 3 Accent 3"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="70" Semi="false"
   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Dark List Accent 3"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="71" Semi="false"
   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Colorful Shading Accent 3"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="72" Semi="false"
   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Colorful List Accent 3"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="73" Semi="false"
   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Colorful Grid Accent 3"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="60" Semi="false"
   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Light Shading Accent 4"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="61" Semi="false"
   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Light List Accent 4"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="62" Semi="false"
   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Light Grid Accent 4"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="63" Semi="false"
   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Shading 1 Accent 4"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="64" Semi="false"
   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Shading 2 Accent 4"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="65" Semi="false"
   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium List 1 Accent 4"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="66" Semi="false"
   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium List 2 Accent 4"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="67" Semi="false"
   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Grid 1 Accent 4"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="68" Semi="false"
   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Grid 2 Accent 4"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="69" Semi="false"
   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Grid 3 Accent 4"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="70" Semi="false"
   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Dark List Accent 4"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="71" Semi="false"
   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Colorful Shading Accent 4"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="72" Semi="false"
   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Colorful List Accent 4"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="73" Semi="false"
   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Colorful Grid Accent 4"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="60" Semi="false"
   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Light Shading Accent 5"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="61" Semi="false"
   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Light List Accent 5"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="62" Semi="false"
   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Light Grid Accent 5"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="63" Semi="false"
   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Shading 1 Accent 5"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="64" Semi="false"
   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Shading 2 Accent 5"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="65" Semi="false"
   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium List 1 Accent 5"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="66" Semi="false"
   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium List 2 Accent 5"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="67" Semi="false"
   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Grid 1 Accent 5"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="68" Semi="false"
   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Grid 2 Accent 5"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="69" Semi="false"
   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Grid 3 Accent 5"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="70" Semi="false"
   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Dark List Accent 5"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="71" Semi="false"
   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Colorful Shading Accent 5"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="72" Semi="false"
   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Colorful List Accent 5"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="73" Semi="false"
   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Colorful Grid Accent 5"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="60" Semi="false"
   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Light Shading Accent 6"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="61" Semi="false"
   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Light List Accent 6"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="62" Semi="false"
   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Light Grid Accent 6"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="63" Semi="false"
   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Shading 1 Accent 6"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="64" Semi="false"
   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Shading 2 Accent 6"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="65" Semi="false"
   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium List 1 Accent 6"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="66" Semi="false"
   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium List 2 Accent 6"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="67" Semi="false"
   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Grid 1 Accent 6"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="68" Semi="false"
   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Grid 2 Accent 6"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="69" Semi="false"
   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Medium Grid 3 Accent 6"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="70" Semi="false"
   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Dark List Accent 6"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="71" Semi="false"
   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Colorful Shading Accent 6"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="72" Semi="false"
   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Colorful List Accent 6"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="73" Semi="false"
   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Name="Colorful Grid Accent 6"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="19" Semi="false"
   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Qat="true" Name="Subtle Emphasis"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="21" Semi="false"
   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Qat="true" Name="Intense Emphasis"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="31" Semi="false"
   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Qat="true" Name="Subtle Reference"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="32" Semi="false"
   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Qat="true" Name="Intense Reference"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="33" Semi="false"
   UnhideWhenUsed="false" Qat="true" Name="Book Title"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="37" Name="Bibliography"/>
<w:LsdException Locked="false" Priority="39" Qat="true" Name="TOC ing"/>
</w:LatentStyles>
</><![endif]--><!--[if gte mso 10]>
<>
/* Style Definitions */
table.MsoNormalTable
     {mso-style-name:"Table Normal";
     mso-tstyle-rowband-size:0;
     mso-tstyle-colband-size:0;
     mso-style-noshow:yes;
     mso-style-priority:99;
     mso-style-qformat:yes;
     mso-style-parent:"";
     mso-padding-alt:0in 5.4pt 0in 5.4pt;
     mso-para-margin-top:0in;
     mso-para-margin-right:0in;
     mso-para-margin-bottom:10.0pt;
     mso-para-margin-left:0in;
     line-height:115%;
     mso-pagination:widow-orphan;
     font-size:11.0pt;
     font-family:"Calibri","sans-serif";
     mso-ascii-font-family:Calibri;
     mso-ascii-theme-font:minor-latin;
     mso-fareast-font-family:"Times New Roman";
     mso-fareast-theme-font:minor-fareast;
     mso-hansi-font-family:Calibri;
     mso-hansi-theme-font:minor-latin;}

<![endif]-->

<p ="Msonormal">

<p ="Msonormal">Larry, this last paragraph put the “icing on the cake.” You
used simple logic and skill, a person reading it has to think openly and
honestly about it. If Muslims teach an imposter was crucified in the place of
Jesus and Muslims don’t even all agree with that, why would any Muslim now
agree that Jesus here was calling on Allah?

<p ="Msonormal">I seriously believe you have backed them into a corner.

<p ="Msonormal">Here are my two questions:

<p ="Msonormal">1) Is God, Lord or Allah (The God) really a name or is it only
a title?

<p ="Msonormal">2) If the God of Jesus and of Abraham, Isaac and
Jacob is the same as Muhammad’s god you should not have a hard time showing and
proving to everyone with historical and archeological references and evidence NOT
WITH LINKS when the earliest use of that name was dated, by whom and where? If Allah
is truly the name of the God of Moses and the Prophets this should be your easiest TASK!!! If
not, you have a lot of explaining to do!!!<span style="font-size:12.0pt;
line-height:115%;font-family:"Arial","sans-serif""></span>

<p ="Msonormal"><span style="mso-bidi-font-family:Arial">Wow Larry, this
just got real! Hopefully they will answer and not try to change topics. </span>

Originally posted by larry

And, by the way, I was very surprised that youacknowledged, ("what came out of Jesus' mouth as a cry was Allah Allahwhen He cried Eloi Eloi...") that Jesus Christ was in a position to"cry aloud" to God "My God, My God, why have you forsakenme?" Jesus said these words on the cross during His crucifixion. I thoughtthat Islam taught that Jesus was NEVER crucified in the first place?

   Oops!

Originally posted by Larry

Hasan,

   I can't believe that you are still using this argument.

   If Jesus was truly calling upon "Allah" then he would have called on "Allah" not "Eloi." Eloi is Aramaic (My God), not Arabic (God), and to suggest they are the same because they "sound alike" is the shoddiest form of scholarship.

   Is the "Iranian" (Persian) form of Allah "Elohe" in the Persian translation of the Qur'an from Arabic (since they are not the same language)?

   Then you say, "Just say it loud and tell me is it closer to or "sounds like:" 1-Yahweh, 2. Adonai, 3. Allah-Ella.

   What it most "sounds like" to me is the ARABIC "Al-Ilah" (the god, or the deity). "Allah" is actually a pre-Islamic word for a deity, both Muhammad's father and uncle had "Allah" as part of their names (long before Muhammad had his "revelations"). This is one of the reasons that I dispute that "Allah" is actually the same God as that of the Jews and Christians.

   It would not sound like "Adonai" (meaning "Lord" in Aramaic, the language of Jesus Christ) because the word is used IN PLACE OF God's true name "YHWH" because it is not permitted for Jews to use God's actual name. Jews also refer to God alternately as "Shaddai" the Almighty."

   "YHWH" sounds nothing like "Allah."

   And what name is "Allah-Ellah?" What does "Ellah" mean and what language is it?

   And is "Allah" the SPECIFIC name of God or is any word sounding like it actually referring to the true name of God Himself?

Larry

Originally posted by Larry

Hasan,

   Oh, I see, if a word is "similar" to Allah it must mean Allah? Or "Allah with an ACCENT." Do you base your faith on such flimsy and silly incorrect comparisons? "Eloi," (derived from the Hebrew "El),"("My God", not just "God") becomes "Allah?" So I guess the name "Allah" is not a specific and singular name, any word meaning "God" (or something similar) that sounds anything like "Allah" becomes Allah? In that case the Arabic "Al-Ilah" or "the god", or "the deity" in pagan Arabia, must also refer to Allah since it is almost identical, even more so than "Eloi."

   "Allah" may mean "God" in Arabic but the name "Allah" is not found ANYWHERE in the Bible. Even Scofield removed his incorrect reference to the word "Alah" because it was nonsense, it was a description of an action ("to swear, to bind oneself as an oath, so implying truthfulness"), not a proper name.

   God's name, or Tetragrammaton, in the Bible is written YHWH, from the Semitic root that means "to be," (sometimes written YHVH) and usually transliterated as "IAUE" or "Yahweh". But Jews never use, read aloud or say the name "YHWH" because it is not permitted to speak God's true name because of it's holiness. Even when Jews write the the English word "God" they write it as "G-d" out of respect. Whenever the word "YHWH" appears in the Torah, or Old Testament, a substitute word such as "Adonai"(Lord) is used when reading the Torah aloud.

Larry

Originally posted by Larry

Hasan,

   Oh, I see, if a word is "similar" to Allah it must mean Allah? Or "Allah with an ACCENT." Do you base your faith on such flimsy and silly incorrect comparisons? "Eloi," (derived from the Hebrew "El),"("My God", not just "God") becomes "Allah?" So I guess the name "Allah" is not a specific and singular name, any word meaning "God" (or something similar) that sounds anything like "Allah" becomes Allah? In that case the Arabic "Al-Ilah" or "the god", or "the deity" in pagan Arabia, must also refer to Allah since it is almost identical, even more so than "Eloi."

   "Allah" may mean "God" in Arabic but the name "Allah" is not found ANYWHERE in the Bible. Even Scofield removed his incorrect reference to the word "Alah" because it was nonsense, it was a description of an action ("to swear, to bind oneself as an oath, so implying truthfulness"), not a proper name.

   God's name, or Tetragrammaton, in the Bible is written YHWH, from the Semitic root that means "to be," (sometimes written YHVH) and usually transliterated as "IAUE" or "Yahweh". But Jews never use, read aloud or say the name "YHWH" because it is not permitted to speak God's true name because of it's holiness. Even when Jews write the the English word "God" they write it as "G-d" out of respect. Whenever the word "YHWH" appears in the Torah, or Old Testament, a substitute word such as "Adonai"(Lord) is used when reading the Torah aloud.

Larry

Originally posted by Larry

iec786,

   I don't suppose you noticed that the "Scofield Bible" depicted is NOT the Old Testament. It is Scofield's commentary on Genesis, not the actual book, which you can see if you take the time to READ it.

   And the most ridiculous thing about your "claim" concerning the "Scofield Bible" is that it says, in clear black and white, that "in the latest Scofield "version" the word "Allah" is now OMITTED (which means it was REMOVED from the text).

    In the illustration the word listed is "Alah" meaning "to swear, to bind oneself as an oath, so implying truthfulness", etc. Not the name of GOD.

   So, your claim that the "Scofield Bible" contains the word "Allah" is simply nonsense, and your claim is further rejected because that "word" (Alah) is no longer even IN the "Scofield Bible."

   If you are going to make a claim about something you should read it first before saying things that make you look uneducated and lacking in discernment.

   Is this kind of tortured reasoning your "proof" that you use to "prove" that "Allah" is in the Bible?

   If the "proof" of my religion depended on such flimsy and absurd reasoning I think I would look for a new religion, but thankfully, I do not need to do so.

Larry

   

   

Originally posted by Larry

Hasan,

   You ask me to "prove me wrong?" in your statements concerning Jesus Christ. Prove you wrong with WHAT? I can easily "prove" you wrong using the Holy Bible. All Christians believe in ONE GOD, even if YOU do not understand the nature of the Holy Trinity.According to the King James version the authors say that you must omit the verse i john 5:7/8 because they are nowhere to be found in the Manuscripts. Christians also believe that salvation comes through this belief in one God, in Jesus Christ's sacrifice to provide salvation for all who believe in Him.New International Version (©1984)
But I tell you that men will have to give account on the day of judgment for every careless word they have spoken. no free salvation. Every question you have ever asked is answered clearly and unambiguously in the Holy Bible, despite your literalistic and naive "understanding" of what the Bible really says.The problem is you never quote the Bible.

   But, since you do not believe what the Bible says, or condemn it as "corrupted text", your only reference to refute these beliefs is the Qur'an. You assume that anyone who is a true believer in God is exclusively Muslim, and in that belief you are wrong. I have read the entire Qur'an and am singularly unimpressed with it. It reiterates time after time, over and over, the same message, that there is no God but Allah, that Muhammad is the true and "final" messenger of God and that Muslims need to obey both God and the "Prophet", and if they don't, including Jews and Christians, the "people of the book", or Muslims who leave the faith, then they should be killed.Quote your Bible man stop babling man.APOSTASY : ". . . neither shall thine eye pity him (the apostate),
neither shalt thou spare him, neither shalt thou conceal him:
"But thou shalt SURELY KILL HIM: thine hand shall be first
upon him TO PUT HIM TO DEATH . . ." DEUTRONOMY 13:8,9

   In Christianity and Judaism there is no "death penalty" for those who, for whatever reason, leave the Christian or Jewish faiths. We believe that everyone has the right to believe what they want, even if it means rejecting Christianity or Judaism. That is between them and God, and God does not need our "help" in dealing with "non-believers."lol here explain.APOSTASY : ". . . neither shall thine eye pity him (the apostate),
neither shalt thou spare him, neither shalt thou conceal him:
"But thou shalt SURELY KILL HIM: thine hand shall be first
upon him TO PUT HIM TO DEATH . . ." DEUTRONOMY 13:8,9

   That is it for the Qur'an. As I have said before, this "Prophet" of yours, according to my reading of the Qur'an, is not a prophet at all, he made NO specific prophecies that were fulfilled in his "revealed" Qur'an. That is the Biblical standard for a true prophet and Muhammad fails on that account and can hardly be considered the "seal of the prophets." In the Old Testament, Muhammad would have been stoned as a false prophet for this very reason.Your statement has no substance all you are spewing is verbal garbage.

   Muhammad ordered, or aquiesced to, the deaths of eight hundred innocent Jewish men and boys in Medinah,more garbage proof it. the killing of a woman by tearing her in two by having her legs tied to two camels,proof it. personally robbed caravans of their money and goods,you are talking of the bible here lol ordered the murder of his political rivals, extorted "protection" money, Jizyah, from non-Muslims to maintain their own religionsIf that was the case all you Bible thumpers would not be alive today., even though the Qur'an says that there is "no compulsion in religion." Muhammad "revealed" in the Quran that he, personally as the "Messenger" was due 20% of all monies collected in this and other ways (and added that his "immediate" family have "security" and be protected, and also receive payment from these funds). Muhammad married a six year old girl, Aisha, and "consummated" the marriage with her when she was only nine years old.I think you are smoking weed boy.

   Every single detail of the "Hajj", from the wearing of two pieces of seamless white cloth, running between the two hills, stoning the devil, praying on the Plain of Arafat, venerating the "black stone" (a pagan idol from the Kaaba) by touching or kissing it, circling the Kaaba a certain number of times, etc. are all PRE-ISLAMIC religious practices and beliefs of the pagan Arabs. These beliefs and actions were retained by Muhammad, who then added a veneer of Judaism and Christianity to give Islam "legitimacy" in the eyes of Muslims.I told you i think you smoking something.

   Even the "Qibla", originally "revealed" to Muhammad as Jerusalem, was later "revealed" to change to Muhammad's home town of Mecca (this was after the Jews and Christians rejected Islam) and a convenient "revelation" sought to explain this abrupt change in revealed "truth" by saying it was some kind of "test" of Muslims. There are a number of these changed "revelations" in the Qur'an. There is even a surah that allows for the "changing" or "substitution" (to something "better or similar") of one "revelation" to another. There are no Biblical statements by God that His true revelations can be altered or changed by later "revisions." This was supposedly "revealed" to Muhammad as a way to explain the many differences between the Bible and the Qur'an and also to explain contradictions within the Qur'an itself, especially in the case of how the "People of the Book" are to be seen and treated.Not people of a corrupted book full of s@x

   And Muslims believe that Allah is the same God as that of the Jews and Christians, but Jews and Christians have always believed that Allah is a falsego and look at your Arabic Bible and you will see that the name for god IS ALLAH.BUT we know you are an islamaphobe so., pagan ancient Arabic deity (worshipped by pagan Arabs and by Muhammad's clan, the Quryash),He was known as al-Amien the truthfull. and rejected his worship as idolatry (as is the veneration of the "black stone." There were quite a few "meteorite cults" in the ancient world, especially in the worship of the goddess Artemis at Ephesus, described in the Bible). Even the symbol of the crescent moon used everywhere in the ancient pagan world as a symbol of the ancient moon god, along with using the lunar calendar. Even the name "Allah" is pre-Islamic.So the Jews also use the luner calender only the Christians are sun worshipers.

   This is only a short list of things believed by Muslims, acts done or ordered by Muhammad, or "revealed" by his "revelations" in the Qur'an and in his biographies. If this is your idea of the "superior" or "perfect" man who was blessed by God for his actions, then that is up to you. Your Bible has no author.you believe in a book with no author only the Paul the lire.PAUL : On his own admittance being cunning, used deceit:
   "But be it so, I did not burden you: nevertheless, being crafty, I
CAUGHT YOU WITH GUILE." 2 CORINTHIANS 12:16

   Simply comparing the life stories of Jesus Christ and Muhammad, shows clearly who represents God's truth and salvation and who does not. I can understand why certain Muslims seem to be somewhat insecure in their religion, if Muhammad is the standard by which their lives are to be lived and judged and be reflective of God's own peace and salvation.

   "Prove you wrong?" I don't need to prove anything, the real "truth" is there for anyone with eyes to see. And I am sure that you will avoid addressing any of the points I have made in this article, as per your usual modus operandi.you tried your best but it was not good enough.Sam shamoun and his ilk have tried it many times and they ran with their tails between their legs just like you.

Larry

P.S. I am not making these statements or stating my beliefs in order to insult you personally, but I am making a definitive statement about my own personal beliefs. Just as you do with your beliefs in Islam. that is your problem not ours.

    

     

Originally posted by honeto



Caringheart,
it is a shame when people make a claim, but are unable to stand by and prove it. When they have to prove it, they turn mystical and poetic, really funny indeed.
Hasan

Originally posted by Caringheart

"The aim of argument, or of discussion, should be not victory, but progress" [Joseph Joubert Pensées]~Be thou my wisdom, be thou my true word,Be thou ever with me, and I with thee Lord;Be thou my great Father, and I thy true son;Be thou in me dwelling, and I with thee one. ~

Originally posted by Caringheart



Hasan,

I am curious why you keep beating this dead horse?

You do not understand Holy Spirit, why do you not just leave it at that?

Salaam,
Caringheart

Originally posted by honeto

Larry,
You seem to have your agenda. I just wanted the truth to be known of what we are talking about here, another comforter (not holy spirit). And that is who Jesus is talking about when he says that he will ask the father to send another comforter, the one you know not.
I have given the proofs through quotes. According to the Bible, Jesus and those around him knew holy spirit, thus it cannot be the holy spirit. Also when he says "another", it cannot be the same (holy spirit).
Can you address that rather than making unsuccessful attempts to distract. Or simply you realized that truth is not the way for you so you cover it up. You really believe that's how you will have any benefit?
Hasan

Originally posted by honeto

Caringheart,

Originally posted by iec786



... you will agree without any persuasion that the coming Comforter was
to be a man and not a ghost.

Originally posted by honeto

[QUOTE=Caringheart]

I will once more break down the verses I posted:
You say it was about holy spirit while Jesus is quoted here to have said: "I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another comforter".
in verse 17 it says: "but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you". This completely shows the truth of the matter.
How it is that something that already dwells with them according to one verse can be same comforter " "to give you another comforter" ?

Hasan

Originally posted by Caringheart





Caringheart,
I agree it takes effort to understand any Holy Book. Same times we should not overlook the face value of words or verses just because they don't serve our purpose so we try to look hidden meanings or just interpret them the way we like them to mean, and you call it "translation", it is your interpretation. What I posted was traslation as it appears in the Bible.

I will once more break down the verses I posted:
You say it was about holy spirit while Jesus is quoted here to have said: "I will pray the Father, and He shall give you another comforter".
in verse 17 it says: "but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you". This completely shows the truth of the matter.
How it is that something that already dwells with them according to one verse can be same comforter " "to give you another comforter" ?

Hasan

Edited by honeto - 12 July 2012 at 1:28pm]]> Thu, 12 Jul 2012 13:17:18 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12336&PID=165367#165367 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12336&PID=165323#165323 Author: iec786
Subject: 12336
Posted: 10 July 2012 at 11:27pm

Originally posted by Caringheart

Originally posted by iec786


Insult????? no i did not insult you.If you feel i have then i apologize.Please accept my humble apologies.

This spirit you speak of Jesus said he will show you into all truth.Jesus said I have many things to say to you but ye cannot bear them now,howbeit if i go i will send him and he will show you.

My question to you is Show me just one new thing that this Holy Goast has shown you in 2000 years that Jesus did not teach you?just one Jesus said many i am asking for only one.

Greetings Ismail,The insult was in telling me that I do  not know my Bible and that I know nothing of Islam. (In case you do not understand how it is that I felt insulted.)However apology has been accepted.  Forgiveness is easy. [IMG]smileys/smiley1.gif" align="absmiddle" alt="Smile" />Regarding your question;The Holy Spirit came to the Apostles(at Pentacost) and showed them the Truth of Jesus and the resurrection.  Jesus knew they could not bear to hear of what He was facing and how He would be put to death, but assured them that they would come to know and understand all, and they did.   It is why they again went out to preach the message of Jesus.   The Holy Spirit shows me Truth every day in my life.The Holy Spirit has convicted me when I have made idols of my children, putting them before God.It has convicted me of my anger when I 'turned not away wrath with a gentle word, but rather my tongue cut like a knife'.  When I am 'too quick to speak and too slow to listen'.  The Holy Spirit lets me know God is with me and that He forgives... that the One who 'made me in the womb' understands me, my weaknesses, and my faults, and is pleased simply that I listen to the Spirit with the purpose of correcting these faults... putting God first and accepting His will in all things.  This is the Holy Spirit that lives within me.  It is the Spirit that guides us into all Truth... that convicts us in our hearts of right and wrong, good and evil, and leads us to God's way.  This Spirit does not live in me if I do not keep God's word in my heart, 'renewing my mind with His Word daily'.[IMG]smileys/smiley27.gif" align="absmiddle" alt="Heart" />

Hi Caringheart,
All these good things that is happening to you is not what the comforter was to come and give you.I will read this verse again and try to explain.

If I take the liberty of quoting the prophecy under discussion, with an emphasis on
the pronouns, you will agree without any persuasion that the coming Comforter was
to be a man and not a ghost.

Howbeit when He, the Spirit of Truth, is come, He will
guide you into all truth:
for He shall not speak of Himself; but whatsoever He
shall hear, that shall He speak: and He will show you
things to come.

Please count the number of HE's in the above verse. There are SEVEN! Seven
masculine pronouns in a single verse! There is not another verse in the 66 books of
the Protestant Bible or in the 73 Books of the Catholic Bible with seven masculine
pronouns, or seven feminine pronouns, or with seven neuter genders. You will agree
that so many masculine pronouns in one verse ill befits a Ghost, holy or not! NINE MASCULINE PRONOUNS.He shall show you all truth.The name of the Prophet Muhammad was Al-Amien the truthful. ]]> Tue, 10 Jul 2012 23:27:24 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12336&PID=165323#165323 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12336&PID=165282#165282 Author: Caringheart
Subject: 12336
Posted: 09 July 2012 at 9:33pm

Originally posted by iec786



Insult????? no i did not insult you.If you feel i have then i apologize.Please accept my humble apologies.

This spirit you speak of Jesus said he will show you into all truth.Jesus said I have many things to say to you but ye cannot bear them now,howbeit if i go i will send him and he will show you.

My question to you is Show me just one new thing that this Holy Goast has shown you in 2000 years that Jesus did not teach you?just one Jesus said many i am asking for only one.

Greetings Ismail,
The insult was in telling me that I do  not know my Bible and that I know nothing of Islam. (In case you do not understand how it is that I felt insulted.)
However apology has been accepted.  Forgiveness is easy.

Regarding your question;
The Holy Spirit came to the Apostles(at Pentacost) and showed them the Truth of Jesus and the resurrection.  Jesus knew they could not bear to hear of what He was facing and how He would be put to death, but assured them that they would come to know and understand all, and they did.   It is why they again went out to preach the message of Jesus.  
The Holy Spirit shows me Truth every day in my life.

The Holy Spirit has convicted me when I have made idols of my children, putting them before God.
It has convicted me of my anger when I 'turned not away wrath with a gentle word, but rather my tongue cut like a knife'.  When I am 'too quick to speak and too slow to listen'.  The Holy Spirit lets me know God is with me and that He forgives... that the One who 'made me in the womb' understands me, my weaknesses, and my faults, and is pleased simply that I listen to the Spirit with the purpose of correcting these faults... putting God first and accepting His will in all things.  This is the Holy Spirit that lives within me.  It is the Spirit that guides us into all Truth... that convicts us in our hearts of right and wrong, good and evil, and leads us to God's way.  This Spirit does not live in me if I do not keep God's word in my heart, 'renewing my mind with His Word daily'.

]]> Mon, 09 Jul 2012 21:33:39 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12336&PID=165282#165282 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12336&PID=165193#165193 Author: iec786
Subject: 12336
Posted: 06 July 2012 at 2:18pm

Originally posted by Caringheart

Originally posted by iec786

It may not have been possible for Muhammad to understand these things correctly,
Why not?.Did the prophet Jesus not say i will sent him unto you he will guide you into all truth and he shell glorify me????? I would like to pose one question to you?show me one person that came after Jesus from God to glorify Jesus????just one.

as he only thought in human terms, and so he taught incorrectly to the Arab people according to his own translation.

My thoughts.

You are correct your thoughts.The problem with you is that you do not know your Bible and you certainly have no idea of what Islam is.If you really want to know pleas feel free to ask but the attitude that you have will get you nowhere.

Jesus said to those who believe in Him, He would send a comforter, the Holy Spirit.  Those who know Jesus, know what it is to receive the Holy Spirit, and to have God with them.  I know personally for He has been my only comfort through terrible times.  I believe this was something Muhammad could not understand, what this means to receive a spirit... the Spirit of God which becomes part of oneself.  The Holy Spirit, through the Word, has been, and is, my guide.  The Word lives in me.  This is not a message all can receive... only those who have received the Spirit will understand and know Truth, know God in a personal way.If I understand correctly Muslims believe this comforter was human.  They believe he was Muhammad.Again you feel the need to insult me by saying what I know and do not know(according to your thoughts, your opinion) when I share my thoughts which have come after much study.May God bring all into lightSalaam

Insult????? no i did not insult you.If you feel i have then i apologize.Please accept my humble apologies.


This spirit you speak of Jesus said he will show you into all truth.Jesus said I have many things to say to you but ye cannot bear them now,howbeit if i go i will send him and he will show you.

My question to you is Show me just one new thing that this Holy Goast has shown you in 2000 years that Jesus did not teach you?just one Jesus said many i am asking for only one.

Edited by iec786 - 07 July 2012 at 11:00pm]]> Fri, 06 Jul 2012 14:18:09 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12336&PID=165193#165193 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12336&PID=165144#165144 Author: Caringheart
Subject: 12336
Posted: 04 July 2012 at 10:45pm

Originally posted by honeto

Caringheart,
but the comforter Jesus (pbuh) spoke of cannot be the Holy Spirit. According to the Bible, Holy spirit had been with Jesus and many others already.
John 14:16 and 17 are interesting let us look at 17 first:
About the comforter it is said"...but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you." suggest that it is someone they already know like 'Holy Spirit'. But wait look at 16: " And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;"
Here it talks about "another" comforter. Holy Spirit which was already with them could not be "another" because supposedly it's same. Also note 16 for its words: "I will pray the Father" this is Jesus' words for those who believe in the Bible and need attention for those who see him as God, God does not pray to anyone.

Hasan

 

Here are just a few misunderstandings.  The Bible, like the Qur'an takes much to understand. 

"If you love Me you will keep My commands.  And I will ask the Father and He will give you another advocate to help you and be with you forever - the Spirit of truth.  The world can not accept Him because it neither sees Him nor knows Him.  But you know Him, because He lives with you, and will be in you.  I will not leave you as orphans; I will come to you.  Before long the world will not see Me anymore but you will see Me.  Because I live, you also will live.  On that day you will realize that I am in My Father, and you are in Me, and I am in you.  Whoever has My commands and keeps them is the one who loves Me.  the one who loves Me will be loved by My Father, and I too will love them and show Myself to them." - the words of Jesus

 

This is where translations help.

While He was with them, Jesus was their comfort.  He is letting them know that He is to be taken from them but that because they believe in Him, the Father will send another comforter to be with them... the Holy Spirit which is to remain and indwell with those who love God.  With those who love Him, because the fruit of that Love is that they will keep His commands.

 

and yes, God does not pray to anyone, but God as the Son, who is still in the flesh, prays to His Father which is still Spirit in heaven.

 

and I know this is not something you understand or accept.  Only God reveals Truth to those He chooses to reveal it to, and only God knows the Truth.

Until judgement day we must seek that Truth and earnestly pray to God that He will reveal it to us so that we do not find ourselves to be wrong on that day.

Blessings.

Edited by Caringheart - 04 July 2012 at 10:46pm]]> Wed, 04 Jul 2012 22:45:15 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12336&PID=165144#165144 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12336&PID=165135#165135 Author: honeto
Subject: 12336
Posted: 04 July 2012 at 4:27pm

Caringheart,
but the comforter Jesus (pbuh) spoke of cannot be the Holy Spirit. According to the Bible, Holy spirit had been with Jesus and many others already.
John 14:16 and 17 are interesting let us look at 17 first:
About the comforter it is said"...but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you." suggest that it is someone they already know like 'Holy Spirit'. But wait look at 16: " And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;"
Here it talks about "another" comforter. Holy Spirit which was already with them could not be "another" because supposedly it's same. Also note 16 for its words: "I will pray the Father" this is Jesus' words for those who believe in the Bible and need attention for those who see him as God, God does not pray to anyone.

Hasan

Edited by honeto - 04 July 2012 at 4:35pm]]> Wed, 04 Jul 2012 16:27:33 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12336&PID=165135#165135 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12336&PID=165083#165083 Author: Caringheart
Subject: 12336
Posted: 02 July 2012 at 9:33pm

Originally posted by iec786


It may not have been possible for Muhammad to understand these things correctly,
Why not?.Did the prophet Jesus not say i will sent him unto you he will guide you into all truth and he shell glorify me????? I would like to pose one question to you?show me one person that came after Jesus from God to glorify Jesus????just one.

as he only thought in human terms, and so he taught incorrectly to the Arab people according to his own translation.

My thoughts.

You are correct your thoughts.The problem with you is that you do not know your Bible and you certainly have no idea of what Islam is.If you really want to know pleas feel free to ask but the attitude that you have will get you nowhere.

Jesus said to those who believe in Him, He would send a comforter, the Holy Spirit.  Those who know Jesus, know what it is to receive the Holy Spirit, and to have God with them.  I know personally for He has been my only comfort through terrible times.  I believe this was something Muhammad could not understand, what this means to receive a spirit... the Spirit of God which becomes part of oneself.  The Holy Spirit, through the Word, has been, and is, my guide.  The Word lives in me.  This is not a message all can receive... only those who have received the Spirit will understand and know Truth, know God in a personal way.

If I understand correctly Muslims believe this comforter was human.  They believe he was Muhammad.

Again you feel the need to insult me by saying what I know and do not know(according to your thoughts, your opinion) when I share my thoughts which have come after much study.

May God bring all into light
Salaam
]]> Mon, 02 Jul 2012 21:33:33 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12336&PID=165083#165083 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12336&PID=165080#165080 Author: Caringheart
Subject: 12336
Posted: 02 July 2012 at 9:13pm

Originally posted by iec786

To believe in the qur'an you have to believe in Muhammad. What makes you believe in Muhammad?
Prophet Muhammad - The Most Influential Man in History
from the book by Michael Hart

The following is from Michael Hart's book and lists Prophet Muhammad as the most influential man in History. A Citadel Press Book, published by Carol Publishing Group
Ranking of the twenty from the list of 100:

Prophet Muhammad
Isaac Newton
Jesus Christ
Buddha
Confucius
St. Paul
Ts'ai Lun
Johann Gutenberg
Christopher Columbus
Albert Einstein
Karl Marx
Louis Pasteur
Galileo Galilei
Aristotle
Lenin
Moses
Charles Darwin
Shih Huang Ti
Augustus Caesar
Mao Tse-tung


What makes you think that maybe he just didn't understand clearly the Judeo-Christian ideology he was trying to teach and so taught it falsely?

what did your prophet say????ye shall know them by the fruits.In Islam you have the lowest cases of rape,the lowest alcohol consumption,the lowest gambling rate,the lowest divorce rate,the most charitable people in the world,the most god fearing people in the world,these are the fruits.Your problem is you have not read a single book on the Prophet Muhammad hence the ignorance.

Because he was influential... this does not make him sent by God... as evidenced by your own list  What makes you believe in him as prophet?

I have read about Muhammad... a lot... so I do not appreciate the insult.

I take exception to only one of the 'fruits' which you mention...

"the most charitable people in the world"

to their own kind only... and while you say they are charitable I not only have heard dissentions on the subject and discussions on the fact that Muslims do not give as they ought to do, I also can not agree that they are the most charitable... Christians tithe 10 percent of their income and in addition to that they give 'love offerings' for needy causes, and Americans are always the first and largest givers to humanitarian aid causes worldwide regardless of race or religion.


Edited by Caringheart - 02 July 2012 at 9:15pm]]> Mon, 02 Jul 2012 21:13:46 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12336&PID=165080#165080 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12336&PID=165008#165008 Author: iec786
Subject: 12336
Posted: 29 June 2012 at 12:23pm

Jesus is often referred to in the Judeo-Christian tradition as the Word...
no you are wrong.Jesus was known as masih translated Christ the son of Mary.

as one who was brought in the flesh...
The Jew's and the Muslims believe that he was the masih translated Christ and that he was born miraculously without any male intervention.

and He was raised up to God in the resurrection.
The Muslims say that he was raised up into heaven alive not dead as the Christians believe. The Muslims also believe he will be coming back to earth alive .

It may not have been possible for Muhammad to understand these things correctly,
Why not?.Did the prophet Jesus not say i will sent him unto you he will guide you into all truth and he shell glorify me????? I would like to pose one question to you?show me one person that came after Jesus from God to glorify Jesus????just one.

as he only thought in human terms, and so he taught incorrectly to the Arab people according to his own translation.

My thoughts.

You are correct your thoughts.The problem with you is that you do not know your Bible and you certainly have no idea of what Islam is.If you really want to know pleas feel free to ask but the attitude that you have will get you nowhere.]]> Fri, 29 Jun 2012 12:23:37 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12336&PID=165008#165008 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12336&PID=165007#165007 Author: iec786
Subject: 12336
Posted: 29 June 2012 at 12:09pm

To believe in the qur'an you have to believe in Muhammad. What makes you believe in Muhammad?
Prophet Muhammad - The Most Influential Man in History
from the book by Michael Hart

The following is from Michael Hart's book and lists Prophet Muhammad as the most influential man in History. A Citadel Press Book, published by Carol Publishing Group
Ranking of the twenty from the list of 100:

Prophet Muhammad
Isaac Newton
Jesus Christ
Buddha
Confucius
St. Paul
Ts'ai Lun
Johann Gutenberg
Christopher Columbus
Albert Einstein
Karl Marx
Louis Pasteur
Galileo Galilei
Aristotle
Lenin
Moses
Charles Darwin
Shih Huang Ti
Augustus Caesar
Mao Tse-tung


What makes you think that maybe he just didn't understand clearly the Judeo-Christian ideology he was trying to teach and so taught it falsely?

what did your prophet say????ye shall know them by the fruits.In Islam you have the lowest cases of rape,the lowest alcohol consumption,the lowest gambling rate,the lowest divorce rate,the most charitable people in the world,the most god fearing people in the world,these are the fruits.Your problem is you have not read a single book on the Prophet Muhammad hence the ignorance.]]> Fri, 29 Jun 2012 12:09:33 +0000 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12336&PID=165007#165007 http://www.IslamiCity.com/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=12336&PID=164957#164957 Author: Caringheart
Subject: 12336
Posted: 27 June 2012 at 7:43pm

Originally posted by honeto

for a Muslim, the Quran is the word of God, and thus is the authority.