Islamis taking the so called modern world to task over many issues such as the issueof expansionist and domineering policies the issue of women the issue offomenting civil wars the issue of the proliferation of weapons of massdestruction including atomic and chemical and biological weapons and the issueof subverting public morality , global domineering system , promoting theculture of promiscuity and pursuit of sensual pleasures. This is an undeniablereality. There are of course several reasons for  hatred from Islam  in western countries  . There are clear reasons why it is hated byPalestinians and by the Lebanese and by Iraqis and by other Muslim nations .Onereason is that they are constantly affronting Islam and Muslims and Islamicvalues expressing support for those insulting Islam and trampling on the rightsof Muslim nations. Now what is the result of this hatred?

MahmudAhmadinejad President of the Islamic Republic of Iran before Session of theUnited Nations General Assembly

The League of Nations and, then, the United Nations were established with thepromise to bring about peace, security and the realization of human rights,which in fact meant a global management.
One can analyze the current governance of the world by examining three events:
First, the event of the 11 September 2001 which had affect the whole world foralmost a decade.
All of a sudden, the news of the attack on the twin towers was broadcast usingnumerous footages of the incident.
Almost all governments and known figures strongly condemned this incident.
But then a propaganda machine came into full force; it was implied that thewhole world was exposed to a huge danger, namely terrorism, and that the onlyway to save the world would be to deploy forces into Afghanistan.
Eventually Afghanistan, and shortly thereafter Iraq were occupied.
Please take note:
It was said that some three thousand people were killed on the 11 September forwhich we are all very saddened. Yet, up until now, in Afghanistan and Iraqhundreds of thousands of people have been killed, millions wounded anddisplaced and the conflict is still going on and expanding.
In identifying those responsible for the attack, there were three viewpoints.
1- That a very powerful and complex terrorist group, able to successfully crossall layers of the American intelligence and security, carried out the attack.
This is the main viewpoint advocated by American statesmen.
2- That some segments within the U.S. government orchestrated the attack toreverse the declining American economy and its grips on the Middle East inorder also to save the Zionist regime.
The majority of the American people as well as other nations and politiciansagree with this view.
3- It was carried out by a terrorist group but the American governmentsupported and took advantage of the situation. Apparently, this viewpoint hasfewer proponents.
The main evidence linking the incident was a few passports found in the hugevolume of rubble and a video of an individual whose place of domicile wasunknown but it was announced that he had been involved in oil deals with someAmerican officials. It was also covered up and said that due to the explosionand fire no trace of the suicide attackers was found.
There remain, however, a few questions to be answered:
1- Would it not have been sensible that first a thorough investigation shouldhave been conducted by independent groups to conclusively identify the elementsinvolved in the attack and then map out a rational plan to take measuresagainst them?
2- Assuming the viewpoint of the American government, is it rational to launcha classic war through widespread deployment of troops that led to the death ofhundreds of thousands of people to counter a terrorist group?
3- Was it not possible to act the way Iran countered the Riggi terrorist groupwho killed and wounded 400 innocent people in Iran. In the Iranian operation noinnocent person was hurt.
It is proposed that the United Nations set up an independent fact-finding groupfor the event of the 11 September so that in the future expressing views aboutit is not forbidden.

RegardingAfghanistan, presence of more than one hundred thousands of NATO militaryforces, have led to further insecurity in the region and this crisis hasfurther extended to Pakistan.
The security situation in Iraq also has not yet improved.
The sad story of Palestine occupation and displacement of millions ofPalestinians, who are living in the refugee camps at present, waiting to returnto their homeland, is still continuing.
Gaza was destroyed following an unjust imposed war. Many peoples were killedand others faced food and medical shortages. The neighboring countries arefacing Zionism regime’s repeated threats.

Salam,I think it is not relate totheir religion because Christians are humans like Muslems. every one hates fromkilling and terror .this subject is relate to their believes and theircondition of life or their education .when they live in a place full of lovehow can kill a human. this cruel behavior only can do by mental people thatcant decide about their way and select the best ways. sorry ,now we see thisbad condition in our dear Islamic country (Surya)their Muslems are in struggle.they want freedom but other countries prefer that they be in war amongthemselves .they cant see happiness of muslems .their other  plan is creating war among Shia and Sunni .Allof Muslems know that we are brother and we respect to our dear brothers .may bewe have some difference between together but this not mean that we are enemy. welike Allah, our dear prophet and we love way of Islam and our believes and areready for defence from them .we know good people that aren’t muslem but livegood and respect to our believes ,they are from other different religions .thanks.

come untill show that muslems are friend together and want the bests for themselves.be happy and luck every time.

Has anybody read 1984 by Orwell? The US propoganda machine has worked this feat.  Doublethink.  We now have all these people who say,  "Love your neighbor," and, "Go to war!," in the same sentence and they do not see a problem.  Its as if their minds have become partitioned. 

what the Christian West say regarding being peaceful and "civilized" and the reality of their actions is evident for all good people to see.

How many Christians civilians got killed in the west by Iraq's and Afghans before Iraq and Afghanistan were bombed and lost over 1 million civilians(UK Medical Lancet Report)?

How is it that openly Committed Christian leaders (Blair Bush, and the rest, Australia Europe) and Christian solders backed buy money and support from Officially Christian countries kill 1 million innocent civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan not be classed as Christian Terrorist when they kill civilians in an unjustified and immoral invasion. 

Is it Because solders who drop and fire bombs from such great distances somehow feel detached from there actions, and as they seldom see the death and destruction caused, they hold no responsibility nor dose those who gave them the order for the killing.

 Yet its the Muslims that are continually labeled with "Islamic Terrorists" by the west, when a handful of Muslims do something wrong, it seems this is a war on truth.

When dose "following orders" take away the responsibility for an individuals actions, "democracies" have become a very convenient way for an individual not to think about what they are responsible for. Everyone is just following orders and the people at the very top make the excuse that, "this is what you the people of the country wanted because they voted for me".   

i would love to know how Christian's feel regarding the above as they are always advocating that The Bible teaches Love and Peace. Muslims living in the west never agree with killing Innocent civilians and we have marched and protested to show it. I have not come to know of any Christian groups marching against deaths in Iraq and Afghanistan, if there have been i would like to know. 

Christan's of the USA and the wold are being lead by the Jewish American Lobby.

a fact any American politician will tell you, one of the reasons of the Iraq invasion was to destroy Israels enemies, and in the eyes of The isreali Jews all Muslims are there enemies, so the USA dose its killing for them.

thats not to say that the USA holds a different views from the Israeli Jews its a convenient partnership for now.

Sorry, I made a mistake in spelling it; Aethist / Aethism.

Who doesnot believe in existance of God/creator. The church of Scientology in US also belongs to similar ideology.

the number is just something I have used for screennames in the past on other forums and messageboards, no real significance...

thank you

Well said Matt5058. Does this number signify anything? or just nothing.

Your opinion and actions definitely are in a very minority group in US. most of the people who have similar opinions are not doing enough. Bush would not have been ellected if the majority people felt the same.

I know US/Europe are secular states. Which respects all religion (orally) and in state legislation/policies violet all religion (gayrights, same sex marriage, abortions, social norms etc) it is more of eithistic. As of today, secularism is same as eithism.

So eithism is standing against all religions, not only Islam. They think they have christianity and others in control, so it is a battle for controlling Islam. Unfortunately as a muslim i understand my faith and the people of my faith quiet a lot, and i am sure that the situation with islam will never be same as others, it is too shalow to put it in line with socialism. Islam is deeper than one can imagine in the west.

I appreciate your belief and what you stand for.

I haven't read the whole thread but this is a response to the original poster.

Christian and non-Christian Americans, or at least a large portion of them, don't want to believe that our government and our leaders would engage in an immoral and unjust war. Many of them buy into the demonization of Islam and Islamic countries and actually believe we are keeping the United States safe and helping out the Iraqi people.

The Bush administration, aided by the media, has done a great job of turning Islam into the new communism in order to justify our massive defense budget, from which companies like Boeing, Lockheed Martin, Exxon, etc. gain billions and billions in profits. The lives of millions of Iraqis and Afghans mean nothing to the men who benefit from these wars.

As a former marine who spent time in Iraq and now someone who considers myself a humanitarian, I am very opposed to the war in Iraq and our foreign policy in general. I find it very hypocritical, in violation of human rights to a whole new extreme, and bordering on genocidal.

I never denied them! I accept them but you cannot use it to say that a country is offically such and such - christianity, i will use since you are stuck on that. 

Oscar go and use nationality statistics instead.

Originally posted by Sign*Reader

Originally posted by Angel

As for being classed as Christian terrorist it cannot simply because countries are not christian nor the west cannot be called that either, despite leaders being christian & majority of citizens may be christian.

And the highest medals given by these governments to their soldiers are likes of Victoria Crosses, Distinguished service Crosses
for Army, Air Force , Navy and Marines, Angel why would any Jew or Muslim would like to carry that over his heart and why a non christen establishment would go for the crosses?

Crosses were around for sometime before Christianity.

let go of the pc, well what about you  you're getting down to the nitty gritty about crosses

Thank you and to the other person who also mentioned about Barack. just couldn't remember at the time.

Angel

again i cant believe you are trying to justify that the USA is not a Christian country.

iv shown you the facts above and you still cant accept the truth.

answer me this if a Christian American lives in Saudi Arabia dose he become a Saudi and dose his religion just vanishes. 

also if i identify myself as a whale dose that make me one.

Has anyone ever claimed ever to be a terrorist? Does any criminal claims to be one? So what does matter is the actions.

What is europes religious identity? Secularism does not kill religious identity like socialism. And please stop carrying dual identity for convenience. When it's needed to be cristian you be in a minute and when it is inconvenient to face truth then use the other. But we all know what europe is !! don't we? I am not sure if anyone practices christianity there, but I judge europe from it's policies and actions beyond their borders.

I didn't know if other religions are able to dictate policies in the west. I have explained the religious issue with western government in one of my previous posts.

The joke of the day:

Anatolian

I AGREE A RIGHTEOUS CHRISTIAN IS BETTER THAN A BAD MUSLIM.

did i say that the middle east is christian? I stated by your logic that if america had a muslim leader then it would be a muslim country, AS you say that Bush is christian so america is christian.

The reason why there is labels for muslim terrorists is because the terrorists themselves IDENTIFY themselves as muslim and supposedly following islam. The west didn't conjure up that term as far as I know. I myself go by what the terrorists say who they are and i'm sure others do to.

Just because some countries seem by statistic polls show a large number in a particular religion doesn't make it that country offically such and such.

In south american countries there is many christians does that make south americans christians or countries offically christian.

I struggle with the question, what makes an amercian, what are the values or australian in my case. I can't answer it satisfactory because many things make up what is an australian or what is the australian values. What do I do with muslims (and those who convert to), athiests, jews, zoroastrains, aboriginals, buddhists WHO are born, raisesd, live here ?? Are they christian ? NO! Do I refer to them as christian? NO!

Those who say to muslims go home, well they are home!

Besides the UK/USA/Europe and here and anywhere else that may, tend to have similar things, so if I rattle off something of the same am i an european or amercian then. To be honest with you Australia is the same with Christianity dominating but it doesn't make it offically christian, I myself cannot see it that way because before Britian landed on the shores and colonised it with its so called criminals, the many aborignals were here first with their language and beliefs and the north and south aboriginee differred also.

Australia and USA & other western countries are multicultural now with many religions/beliefs. If you go by those statistic of nationality, i wonder what the dominating nationality is by your view/logic that is what that country is.

I guess Brazilians are portugues since they speak that language. Or spanish people are mexican since they too speak spanish.

Western countries have separation of church and state so it cannot be identified offically of such and such religion despite many people identifying themselves with such and such.

Just imagine Australia being offically recognised as a Christian country what will that do with or for the aboriginals, they already suffered enough. At least the aborignals have the decency to refer others as white man/people. 

Originally posted by Angel

Originally posted by OSCAR

How is it that openly Committed Christian leaders (Blair Bush, and the rest, Australia Europe) and Christian solders backed buy money and support from Officially Christian countries kill 1 million innocent civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan not be classed as Christian Terrorist when they kill civilians in an unjustified and immoral invasion.

"Offically christian countries" ?? Where do you get that from? what are these christian countries? 

Elsewhere you mentioned, (i think it was you) "the christian west" - The West is not christian! Just as the East is not muslim!

As for being classed as Christian terrorist it cannot simply because countries are not christian nor the west cannot be called that either, despite leaders being christian & majority of citizens may be christian. If the USA has a muslim president (infact isn't Barack muslim - can't remember) I suppose then that the US will be considered a muslim country then
 

I have not come to know of any Christian groups marching against deaths in Iraq and Afghanistan, if there have been i would like to know. 

Where were you when the world, when many countries marched and protested against the war in iraq ? See you cannot tell who is christian and who is not, and you talk about countries and the west being christian, well by your view then the marches and protest then was christian! wake up don't tell us that you don't know of any christian groups marching

WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT THE AMERICAN PEOPLE SAY THEY ARE CHRISTIAN NOT ME.

WIKIPEDIA

The United States government does not audit Americans' religious beliefs.^[140] In a private survey conducted in 2001, 76.5% of American adults identified themselves as Christian, down from 86.4% in 1990. Protestant denominations accounted for 52%, while Roman Catholics, at 24.5%, were the largest individual denomination.^[141] A different study describes white evangelicals, 26.3% of the population, as the country's largest religious cohort;^[142] evangelicals of all races are estimated at 30–35%.^[143] The total reporting non-Christian religions in 2001 was 3.7%, up from 3.3% in 1990. The leading non-Christian faiths were Judaism (1.4%), Islam (0.5%), Buddhism (0.5%), Hinduism (0.4%), and Unitarian Universalism (0.3%). Between 1990 and 2001, the number of Muslims and Buddhists more than doubled. From 8.2% in 1990, 14.1% in 2001 described themselves as agnostic, atheist, or simply having no religion,^[141] still significantly less than in other postindustrial countries such as Britain (2005:44%) and Sweden (2001:69%, 2005:85%).^[144]

THE SAME APPLIES TO UK EUROPE AND AUSTRALIA,

 I CANT BELIEVE YOUR TRYING TO SAY THE USA PEOPLE AND THERE SOLDERS ARE SECULAR AND NOT CHRISTIAN, SECULAR IS NOT A RELIGION.

AND I'M NOT DEFENDING THE BEHAVIOR OF A HAND FULL OF EXTREMISTS WHO ARE POINTING THERE ANGER AT IRAQI CHRISTIANS

NO BARAKA IS A CHRISTIAN HE SAID FAMUSLY I WILL BOMB PAKISTAN IF THEY CANT GET RID OF THEIR EXTREAMISTS. 

By your logic the middle east is christians and the USA is muslim

"Offically christian countries" ?? Where do you get that from? what are these christian countries? 

Elsewhere you mentioned, (i think it was you) "the christian west" - The West is not christian! Just as the East is not muslim!

As for being classed as Christian terrorist it cannot simply because countries are not christian nor the west cannot be called that either, despite leaders being christian & majority of citizens may be christian. If the USA has a muslim president (infact isn't Barack muslim - can't remember) I suppose then that the US will be considered a muslim country then
 

Has europe proclaimed to be christian?

Are we talking about christians or the west here?

"you in the west" who do you mean by that statement, christians? or people in general which by the way will include all different religions, not just christians.

Actually I think Anatolian gave a good counter active response.

Then tell me why muslim extremists/fundamentalists are killing iraqi citizens christians and threaten them with their lives if they don't leave? Oh that's right they're not muslims because muslims don't kill oh well guess that can be said about christians who may kill and have killed in the past

Both religions claim to be the only truth & only way, so in truth both are intolerant of each other in some way, regardless of the tolerance going on and talks of unity.

You really need to separate what is christianity or who and what is just plain secularism and western. You cannot just go around and say in general christians are killing, because the question remains who is christian?

ANATOLIAN

LOOK AT THE FIGURES OVER THE LAST 10 YEARS CHRISTIANS HAVE KILLED UP TO I MILLION MUSLIM CIVILIANS THATS A FACT,I WOULD RATHER BE HARASSED THAN DEAD. HOW MANY CHRISTIANS HAVE DIED BY MUSLIM AGGRESSION IN THE LAST 10 YEARS.(MUSLIMS DEFENDING THERE INVADED COUNTRIES IS SELF DEFENSE)

YOU KEEP GIVING LONG AND IRRELEVANT SITUATIONS TO DISPROVE THE ABOVE, THE CHRISTIANS ARE JUST PLAYING LIP SERVICE TO THE IMMORALITY, NOTHING HAS CHANGED OR WILL CHANGE.

ISLAM AND THE QURAN RECOGNIZES AND ACCEPTS THAT CHRISTIANITY AND JUDAISM AND OTHER RELIGION CAME FROM GOD, THEREFORE THE VAST MAJORITY OF MUSLIMS COULD NEVER JUSTIFY A "CRUSADE" AGAINST CHRISTIANS. 

CHRISTIANITY OFFICIALLY DOSE NOT ACCEPTS THAT ISLAM IS FROM GOD THATS WHY CHRISTIANS ARE INTOLERANT REGARDLESS OF WHAT YOU SAY THE TRUTH IS IN YOUR ACTIONS. 

YOU KEEP GOING ON ABOUT HARASSMENT, TERRORISM LAWS IN THE WEST IS THE BIGGEST FORM OF ORGANIZED HARASSMENT CREATED FOR MUSLIMS, THE WEST HAS LEARNED ALOT FROM ISREAL.

Anatolian, thanks for such illustrious mail with a lots of anger and very less contents.

What are you trying to justify? Injustice on minorities are their in every country all over the world, name one where it is not. So does it justify, removing the palestinians from their homeland? killing people all over the world? Let the anti religious forces go back to their homes, world will be a better place in a day.

Then find peaceful ways of addressing the injustice issues in all countries. U will intrude and occupy my house and call me a terrorist !! that's ridiculous !! please don't talk nonsense.

There are more than 10 million coptic christians in the ME, bearing testimony that islam did allow them to practice their religion for 1400 years. We all know the histories of killing muslims and jews by the christians in all over europe. you in the west have started being civilized to allow the muslims practice religion in merely a century back. Thanks for learning at last. Probably you have manymore things to learn yet from these ancient civilizations, polish as you do, copyright as u r used to and sell it back to them in some civilized manner..... not in the uncivilized manner that you are doing at the moment in the name of civilization.

A true person of God regardless what Abrahamic faith they subscribe to do the right things and forbade the wrong things. As I was growing up when I read the passage of Jesus saying "turn the other cheek" I believe that the message was symbolic for not committing violent acts. However there is a difference with committing violent acts when someone wrongs you and self-defense. People obviously don't realize that we have a biological instinct in our bodies which is natural and animalistic to defend ourselves. Haven't you guys ever flinched when something almost hit you? The flinching is an instinct which is reactionary. Take it further haven't you seen people flinched throwing their arms in their air as if they're protecting their face? That is another instinct. Even people who are "brain dead" fight back.

So, why in the world would Jesus humans to not defend themselves in the midst of unjust actions against their person when God has given us these natural abilities? I believe that we all should do what is right and never committ violent acts. But what Tom was saying was naive. If my family was in danger and there was no possible way of reasoning with the intruder why would I endanger my life to be noble? It makes no sense. I know its off topic but I'm addressing Anatolian's comment.

Anatolian

I AGREE A RIGHTEOUS CHRISTIAN IS BETTER THAN A BAD MUSLIM.

BUT WHY ARE THE RIGHTEOUS CHRISTIANS OF THE WORLD SO QUITE ABOUT THE LOSS OF MUSLIM LIVES AT THE HANDS OF OFFICIALLY CHRISTIAN COUNTRY LIKE THE USA.

ARE YOU TRYING TO TELL ME THAT ACTUALITY THE VAST MAJORITY OF THE USA AND ITS LEADERS ARE NOT ACTUALLY CHRISTIAN, ITS ALL VERY CONFUSING.

009.007
YUSUFALI:How can there be a league, before Allah and His Messenger, with the Pagans, except those with whom ye made a treaty near the sacred Mosque?As long as these stand true to you, stand ye true to them: for Allah dothlove the righteous.
PICKTHAL:How can there be a treaty with Allah and with His messenger for the idolaters save those with whom ye made a treaty at the InviolablePlace of Worship? So long as they are true to you, be true to them. Lo!Allah loveth those who keep their duty.
SHAKIR:How can there be an agreement for the idolaters with Allah and with His Messenger; except those with whom you made anagreement at the Sacred Mosque? So as long as they are true toyou, be true to them; surely Allah loves those who are careful (oftheir duty).

009.008
YUSUFALI:How (can there be such a league), seeing that if they get an advantage over you, they respect not in you the ties either of kinship orof covenant? With (fair words from) their mouths they entice you, but theirhearts are averse from you; and most of them are rebellious and wicked.
PICKTHAL:How (can there be any treaty for the others) when, if they have the upper hand of you, they regard not pact nor honour in respect ofyou? They satisfy you with their mouths the while their hearts refuse. Andmost of them are wrongdoers.
SHAKIR:How (can it be)! while if they prevail against you, they would not pay regard in your case to ties of relationship, northose of covenant; they please you with their mouths while theirhearts do not consent; and most of them are transgressors.

009.009
YUSUFALI:The Signs of Allah have they sold for a miserable price, and (many) have they hindered from His way: evil indeed are the deeds they havedone.
PICKTHAL:They have purchased with the revelations of Allah a little gain, so they debar (men) from His way. Lo! evil is that which they arewont to do.
SHAKIR:They have taken a small price for the communications of Allah, so they turn away from His way; surely evil is it that theydo.

009.010
YUSUFALI:In a Believer they respect not the ties either of kinship or of covenant! It is they who have transgressed all bounds.
PICKTHAL:And they observe toward a believer neither pact nor honour. These are they who are transgressors.
SHAKIR:They do not pay regard to ties of relationship nor those of covenant in the case of a believer; and these are they who gobeyond the limits.

009.011
YUSUFALI:But (even so), if they repent, establish regular prayers, and practise regular charity,- they are your brethren in Faith: (thus) do Weexplain the Signs in detail, for those who understand.
PICKTHAL:But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then are they your brethren in religion. We detail Our revelations for apeople who have knowledge.
SHAKIR:But if they repent and keep up prayer and pay the poor-rate, they are your brethren in faith; and We make the communications clear for a people who know.

009.012
YUSUFALI:But if they violate their oaths after their covenant, and taunt you for your Faith,- fight ye the chiefs of Unfaith: for their oathsare nothing to them: that thus they may be restrained.
PICKTHAL:And if they break their pledges after their treaty (hath been made with you) and assail your religion, then fight the heads of disbelief- Lo! they have no binding oaths - in order that they may desist.
SHAKIR:And if they break their oaths after their agreement and (openly) revile your religion, then fight the leaders of unbelief-- surely their oaths are nothing-- so that they may desist.

009.013
YUSUFALI:Will ye not fight people who violated their oaths, plotted to expel the Messenger, and took the aggressive by being the first (to assault)you? Do ye fear them? Nay, it is Allah Whom ye should more justly fear, if yebelieve!
PICKTHAL:Will ye not fight a folk who broke their solemn pledges, and purposed to drive out the messenger and did attack you first? What! Fear yethem? Now Allah hath more right that ye should fear Him, if ye arebelievers
SHAKIR:What! will you not fight a people who broke their oaths and aimed at the expulsion of the Messenger, and they attackedyou first; do you fear them? But Allah is most deserving that youshould fear Him, if you are believers.

009.014
YUSUFALI:Fight them, and Allah will punish them by your hands, cover them with shame, help you (to victory) over them, heal the breasts ofBelievers,
PICKTHAL:Fight them! Allah will chastise them at your hands, and He will lay them low and give you victory over them, and He will heal thebreasts of folk who are believers.
SHAKIR:Fight them, Allah will punish them by your hands and bring them to disgrace, and assist you against them and heal thehearts of a believing people.

009.015
YUSUFALI:And still the indignation of their hearts. For Allah will turn (in mercy) to whom He will; and Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise.
PICKTHAL:And He will remove the anger of their hearts. Allah relenteth toward whom He will. Allah is Knower, Wise.
SHAKIR:And remove the rage of their hearts; and Allah turns (mercifully) to whom He pleases, and Allah is Knowing, Wise.

Clearly they are talking about fighting those that made peace treaties and then broke them. 

I like to agree with Tom.

Israfil: I know many Christians who are "God fearing" but would take a persons life in a second if their life was in danger.

That is for self defense which is acceptable in Islam, but as tom said, if a christian is truly god fearing he even can't do that. "If someone slaps you on one cheek, offer him the other" is the teaching of bible. neither Islam nor christianity advocates anarchy and killings without permitted resons.

So who are making all these troubles? they are truly not believers.... so religion is the solution to all these problems, but the policy makers seem to look for it somewhere else.....

i didn't say the Wests leaders are Christians, I'M ONLY QUOTING WHAT THEY HAVE SAID.

SEPARATION OF NOTHING, CHRISTIANS ARE HIDING BEHIND DEMOCRACY TO COMMIT IMMORAL ACTS AROUND THE WORLD

Anatolia get yourself the truth

Tom123:

 "A Christian who is faithful to the Gospel would never attack or seek to harm anyone, even if in self-defence, and would instead pray for their enemies and work for peace."

That is the lamest and most wrongful answer you have said. I know many Christians who are "God fearing" but would take a persons life in a second if their life was in danger. Tom123 no offense because I don't know you in real life but you must be two things: 1) A wimp or 2) totally blind by ignorance. I remember in a previous thread I asked you would you be willing to take someones life to defend your family and you said you'd try to reason with someone or something along those lines. Although your answer is quite noble I still believe judging by your posts that your neo-altruist Christian thinking is not logical.

A Christian regardless whether he or she is quite religious/spiritual is still capable of committing evil and good, and murder people whether with evil or good (for defense) intent.

*Note: Tom you seem to be very good human being with a good heart and I admire your passion for good will. Perhaps I have a different perpspective on the issue of defense since I obviously grew up differently than you. I too cherish the life of others even if they are scum like terrorist however I believe as humans since we are instinctively selfish about our own life, should consider defending ourselves when our lives and the lives of our family is in danger. It is a misinterpretation to say Christians are taught to lay down their lives for their enemies. That is misinformation, not Christian. If anything if you are ignorant of what you say perhaps you are tappig into the selfishness of what you'll receive after death than the logic in this life.

In answer to your question "who is the terrorist- Muslim or Christian?", how about a third option- neither???

   A Muslim who is faithful to Islam would never attack someone unless if in self-defence and in war s/he would never murder civilians.

   A Christian who is faithful to the Gospel would never attack or seek to harm anyone, even if in self-defence, and would instead pray for their enemies and work for peace.

   The Bushes and bin Ladens are using religion to justify terrorism, imperialism, occupation and other forms of murder. Neither Christianity or Islam allow for the crimes they commit.

   Cristo Vive!

      - Tomasz

Anatolian

Prophet has fought wars, but you must know that, in all the occassions, he was under attack from the enemy. The attack prophet did finally on Mecca to capture it, as the non believers broke the treaty, was won without any fight.

Have the christians fought any less in europe? invading and colonizing all of the world? your logic of prophet fighting war is poor.

It is true that the church and state is seperate in europe and America, that only has liberated the state in making laws which are against bible. Have no way stopped the christians running the state to think anti Islamic in their christian minds. Establishment of Israel and the entire world politics is anti islamic world, which is of christian minds.

That's why a secular George bush calls for 'crusade' before attacking Iraq and still angelicals are one of the deciding factors in US election, N time theologists still influence US politics, Jewish lobbies are sitting officially in the Capitol hill to influence policies, .................. church and state might have been seperated, majority of the western population might be a christian by name, but the anti islamic policies of the political west hasn't stopped.

So it is ok to call them christians if you look from the other side. Knowledge may have two sides of it, and it depends on which side you are to look foolish or to look Lieish !!!

Though they may not be true christians, if they would understand and follow bible, these problems wouldnot have arisen.

murder is murder whether from a unjustified immoral war or from a crazed suicide bomber.

but according to the Christian west when they murder its got nothing to do with being a Christian, but if a Muslim dose something wrong then his religion must be wrong.

just because they don't say "in the name of Christ" before they commit murder dose not mean they are not beliving christians.    

Dear Israfil, please go back to the definitions of fanaticism and then weigh my words, please don't use rhetorics without understanding. 

Sign*Reader,

Thanks for your explanation. But I will try next time to use google. Was feeling pretty tired when I posted. No excuse I know

Yes I know who Dr Iqbal is.

Thanks again

The fall of Masada

    During the springof 71, Titus set sail for Rome. Anew military governor was then appointed from Rome,Lucilius Bassus, whose assigned task was to undertake the"mopping-up" operations in Judaea. He used XFretensis to oppose the few remaining fortresses that still resisted. Bassustook Herodium, and then crossed the Jordanto capture the fortress of Machaerus on the shore of the Dead Sea.Due to illness, Bassus did not live to complete his mission. Lucius FlaviusSilva replaced him, and moved against the last Jewish stronghold, Masada,in the autumn of 72. He used Legio X, auxiliary troops, and thousands of Jewishprisoners, for a total of 10,000 soldiers. After his orders for surrender wererejected, Silva established several base camps and circumvallated the fortress.According to Josephus, when the Romans finally broke through the walls of thiscitadel in 73, they discovered that the 967 defenders had preferred death, thanto be tortured by the Romans. Since suicide was not allowed by the Jewishreligion, they killed each other till the last man, who was the only one whohad to commit suicide.

Perhaps attacking soldiers is within reason if they are in your country, but how does one justify them blowing themselves up in a market full of civilians in the name of Allah?  I have yet to figure this one out.

I just think its a cowardly way of taking the law into your own hands. So, will there come a time then when an army of Islam invades the world in full view of everyone? This is a serious question now, cos I dont know.

Actually, I dont know the story of Masada. Please tell me. I'm not being flipant, I seriously want to know.

Salaams brother.

nu001, is this your version of James Bond 007? Are you a secret agent who has knowledge that we dont have?

If so , then please explain the role of the suicide bomber that kills at random? How is this self defence? We know that the western leaders wage wars because of greed and so on. But until the muslimfanatics understand Islam and the Quran correctly the needless cowardly bomber will continue to destroy lives.

Your comments are the words of a religious fanatic [of course I'm not saying you are]

It is the christians who are waging all the wars. in the last century and this century including Iraq and Afghanistan. I would be happy if the christians did it under christianity, rathar they are doing it for money, power etc materialistic gains. On the other hand the muslims who are fighting these christians are doing it in self defence in the name of religion.

The religion who have largest practicing followers is Islam. So it will always look like this, as most of the muslims will not abandon religion as others did. If the christians would follow the religion of bible most of these wars wouldn't have happened.

Israfil, I am not a hostile person, so sorry you felt this. All of us get on our soap box from time to time, you included brother. I guess it was my turn to be something other than the 'pobre martha' that whisper has decided I am. So allow me this occasionally.

There will always be tyrants. We will never stop that.

Hitler, had he succeeded in his quest to ultimately control the whole world, would have made it virtually impossible for us to have any kind of freedom.  Sadam received the punishment he also deserved .

Oscar pointed out that Blair, before he was a Catholic, asked God for guidance before starting the war. We only have Blairs word for that. And Blair didnt say what Gods/Allahs reply was. Is he saving that to put in his updated memoirs? And why do we think Blair will listen to God when he didnt listen to the British people who told him not to invade Iraq? Blair, who was voted into office by the people,ultimately failed the people, and as such he failed God. Harsh words maybe.

the vast majority of Muslims do not blame the average Christian in the street for what other Christians have done or are doing.

however ask Muslims living in the west how they and there religion has been demonised when Muslims do wrong, George bush and the "Civilized world"

you say that those Muslims did it in the name of Islam, but Tony Blair now a Catholic convert said that he asked for Gods guidance before be started the war.

whats the difference

Our country is not run by the bible, or at least it is not supposed to be. Religion and politics should and are supposed to be separated. Hopefully after Bush leaves office we will get back to this thinking but I'm not holding my breath.

As far as the civilians go, we don't target them on purpose. I know many here don't believe that but it is the truth. On the other hand, Muslims routinely target areas with lots of civilians to inflict as much damage and death as they can. We on the other hand actually limit our use. That is why we can blow up a building and leave the one next to it standing. Now of course we will never be able to prevent all of them but we do try. I know some people talk about us dropping a bomb on wedding parties and such but come on, when you fire weapons at a wedding in the middle of a war zone you should count on a chance of being fired back on. On the other hand, how many times do we hear about a bomb going on in a packed market and then another one just as the emergency help starts to arrive? There is no other purpose other than to kill civilians and that is done by people who like to scream "In the name of Allah" just before they pull the trigger. Also, these statistics of civilian deaths, are they listed out as to who killed them? Were they killed by sectarian violence, were they in the same building as someone who was shooting at our troops? All of this needs to be considered in my opinion. I know if America didn't invade Afghanistan or Iraq then the number would be a lot lower because the Taliban and Hussan didn't kill this many this fast but not all of the civilian deaths were caused by American bullets.

Martha, calm down it was only a question...... Why are you so hostile?

The fact that you believe wars are not started on the religious factor is your belief which I respect. However with me, I believe wars are started by many variables and I believe beliefs whether religious or not, are one of them. You ask how can Saddam pray five times a day and persecute his people? Again, how do we know he prays five times a day? Does television implicates these facts? Books? But for argument's sake let us assume that he did pray five times a day. Most vile leaders in their mind have  a totally different conscious than other humans. In their mind, their lack of conscious in turn distorts the outside world and they believe as if what they do is the right thing when unanimously their actions are considered wrong by the world.

Hitler had an idea of a pure race and would exterminate other humans for this idea and in his mind he thought this was the right plan. Many fanatics regardless of religion use this tatic to control the ignorant masses.

Oscar you asked me:-

was it not the same Christians that were responsible for blowing them up, and then you want to show the Muslims how compassionate you are for helping them.

the logic some people use is crazy.

 Oscar, yes it is the same Christians that were responsible, that then helped the innocent mend their lives. It is not the fault of the innocent that their countries leaders are corrupt and bad. It is logical to help the ones that suffer then isnt it?  Or would you suggest otherwise?

Israfil, if you read my words correctly:-

I think the point Anatolian was trying to convey is that wars such as Iraq are not based on religion ie Christianity

What is your question exactly, do you want me to answer for Anatolians' view or mine? My view is obvious. I dont believe that wars started by Christians are done so for the sake of CHristianity. How do I know? No more than you know the answer, brother. None of us know the intentions in the hearts of others. We can only go by the facts that face us. You should know by now that I am muslim. I am not defending Christianity, but I will defend any person of any faith if they deserve it. That is my right to do so. It is personal to me. My choice.

But many muslims have much to answer for too. Dont neglect this in your attack on CHristianity. I will insult no religion, I have said this time over. It serves no purpose other than giving us all something to have a chat about. We must look at all angles to be able to understand what makes people 'tick'. One thing that sticks in my mind is how can Sadam Hussein offer five times a day prayer and then persecute his people. Where is the logic in that? Do I defend this type of person? Of course I do not. But let me make it clear, to everyone. I am not disrespecting Islam just because I dont respect the man. So dont try to even point this out to me. My question to you then is why should I try to be a good muslim? Does not me being a follower of Islam put me in the same league as Sadam? No, of course it doesnt. It is no different to  Christian people trying to do good when leaders such as Bush, Blair and Mush do idiotic acts. Never match the religion to a persons deeds. It is totally illogical.

Anatolian you said:

"Israfil, I completly agree with you and that humanities brutality surpasses
religion. But we do not see any brutality within Christianity these days as we
see in Islam."

If you agree with me completely this comment above would be unnecessary. "We" don't see anything that implicates Islam as a brutal religion, but if we can find anything that would implicate the culprit, we would see that those who take religion excessively as oppose to the general populace are at high risk becoming fanatical. I feel like I'm repeating myself.

Martha you said:

I think the point Anatolian was trying to convey is that wars such as Iraq are not based on religion ie Christianity

How do you know?

From face value it may not look that way but you never know.

was it not the same Christians that were responsible for blowing them up, and then you want to show the Muslims how compassionate you are for helping them.

the logic some people use is crazy

But in Islam you are not to ask "complicated" answers to an Imam or he will call you a heretic or if he is polite he will just say leave it to Allah for it's too complicated we are only his slaves.

Oh now come on.. this is not accurate. You have to know about levels of knowledge. The basic idea of Islam is easy (Belief in One God, Prohets, Angels etc.) and then it takes a lifetime of learning and knowledge, practice to gain a deeper understanding of Islam.  And an Iman is not a scholar.

I also have never been told by people that something is too complicated. The vast majority of Muslims if they do not know the answer will help you find it or ask someone they know.

And 2nd of all, there are many, many Catholics, Christians etc, when really pushed for an explanation of the trinity say" you just have to believe."  And besides, the average Catholic does not have the depth of knowledge to debate using Biblical or Quranic sources.

And most of us have never said you are a heretic  

 I think the point Anatolian was trying to convey is that wars such as Iraq are not based on religion ie Christianity.

They were done for the sake of some other cause. The leaders might declare they are Christians, and  try to establish peace in foreign lands by killing innocent civilians. Regardless of any ones beliefs, we all know that the innocent suffer. But these wars are based on politics, greed and selfishness, not religion. Regardless, their acts obviously are accountable for in front of God, but often unanswered for in this life.

He is suggesting that there are muslims who kill purely for the sake of the religion Islam. They are often, though not always, random attacks  against all peoples of all religions,including its own. It is this that Christians cannot understand. How can they believe that Islam is a religion of peace ? Britains will remember the tube bombings for example. It was planned to cause as much  chaos and loss of life as possible, by  young muslim fanatics, that did it for the cause of Islam. Several innocent muslims died in the bombings too.

 One final comment regarding the innocent of Iraq that lost limbs and needed surgery. It is invariably the Christians who paid and made it possible for them to have prosthetic limbs and counselling and  money is given in its millions to repair damage done to all war riddled countries. 

again as i have written previously one criminal action is enough for you to make insinuations about Islam.

you conveniently forget the religion of those like you who say we Christians are peace loving, and then drop bombs and blow of the arms and legs of kids in Iraq remember Khalid, who came to UK for surgery after his entire family were killed he was on Fox news there are thousands more like him.

Anatolian answer me one simple question in the last 10 years what was the religion of the people who killed the most civilians in the world, dont forget Rwanda and Bosnia in your calculations.

The question of this thread is misleading:

Whose the Terrorist Muslim or Christian?

 The above question no offense is not well written out because either the author did not properly think of the correct title or is not proficient in the english language (no offense). "Whose the terrorist Muslim or Christian?" Implies implicating a person. However judging from the responses I understand what the author is trying to get at. In my opinion terrorism is not defined by religion but rather is one of many possible motivating factors. Of course historically many warriors in the medieval times have used religion as a guide to conquer new lands and some used religion to take them back.

Religion, much like things we eat are only dangerous when done in excessive fashion. When one tries to force religion on another autonomous human being then it becomes VERY dangerous. Should we ponder the question on who is the most dangerous of the two Muslim or Christian? I'd say neither because they are equally capable of committing the same horrific crimes regardless of doctrine. There have been many crimes (both in the media and not) done in the name of Christianity and many crimes done in the name of Islam. I don't think looking at personal experiences including news paper clips and news reports account for truth they are basically perspectives on the issue.

Anatolian

hi im not sure there is a question in your reply but i will give you a basic answer,  Islam is simple logical and practical as you have experieced by not eating pork, we don't eat pork because of any irrational fears or belifes its simply you are what you eat. if the pig eats rubbish and you eat the pig you have eaten rubbish, the pig itself is a marvelous creature created by God to recycle harmful organic matter.

if you agree Muslims are right about pork, in time you will realize they were right about everything else in the Quran.  

Anatolian,

You have raised some good points with your above message.

I also never thought Hitler was Christian and I have always been  of the opinion that he persecuted the Jews because of their wealth. Hitler despised anyone that just didnt fit in with his views. Which pretty much included everyone. He hated the blacks, muslims, asians,Christians and so on. He was pure evil. Just being alive threatened him.

Am I right in thinking that as a child Hitlers best friend was a Jew? Am sure it was in his biography. (no I didnt read it)

Greed is the basis behind  invasions. Religion does not play a part in politics at all, though we are supposed to believe this. If all religions acted as they should then there would be no wars.

As a Christian I never had to feel fear from anyone else. However, I have faced many obstacles since I became muslim. I recently told a forum friend of mine that I am no longer  free to outwardly practice Islam. And that is very sad, and unfair. Strangely enough, I told her just 3 days back that I feel in the same league as the Jews that hid in fear of Hitler. So your comments today have said the very same thing .....'I draw the line where it's innocent faithfull are
forced to live in fear and face persecution by there neighbors.' I dont feel I can fight anymore the obstacles that are constantly presented to me. I get it from muslims and CHristians alike. So I am a secret muslim. That is FACT. But my faith in Islam is ever strong. I enjoy reading about the Prophet Muhammed (pbuH). It keeps me going in a world that is full of trouble and contention. The Prophet kept his teachings simple, so others could understand. Much in the same way that Jesus taught in parables. I would have had a far better life had I been born into a muslim family. But that was not meant to be. But I feel very fortunate that I embraced Islam when I did.

I hope for the time when all religions can come together and calmly discuss. There are many good Christians and muslims in the world, but these are greatly outnumbered. I will refrain from saying what kind of people they are. It wouldnt be polite. 

I always look forward to any forum conversation that might produce good, intelligent and mature responses from all faiths. It is always good to learn 'good'

 Well said OSCAR.    And the post of Martha dated 21 December was excellent. Anatolian should try to see the King James version of the bible. I read that and enjoyed it very much. Of course my study was limited to the four gospels. Whatever I saw of Jesus, it was excellent and easy to understand, specially the chapters of Mathews.

 We can read the bible and fall in love with Jesus. But that is not all. We as Muslims are already in love with Jesus and his mother and all the prophets of Allah. We do not differentiate between any messenger of God, nor do we reject any of them. The message of all of them is LOVE. Quran is full of wisdom. It is the new or last testament.

If there is any decent question about Islam or some querry, I am also ready to explain even though i am not any religious head (maulvi). Anatolian is partly right in blaming ISLAM because some of the things that are mentioned by Anatolian are true. They are the bad practices of the ignorant Muslims and they are not any true part of Islam.

 My teacher in England told me once, "In India, Mulla says 'Don't do as I do. But do as I tell you.' " There was a good message for me about the bad habits of the Muslim religious leaders of India. I had made a mistake and I tried to justify it by the act/ practice of the teacher. He then warned me and told me the above words. That was a beautiful gentle way of teaching me.

Hi Anatolian

I'm not an imam, Islam encourages debate but insulting any religion is not debating, that said ask me what ever you want about Islam. 

one of the reasons Hitler and the Nazis gave to persecute the Jews was they killed Jesus

Hi Anatolian,

My time is short today, and am unable to answer all the things you have pointed out. But I will come back again on Monday to fully digest.

I'll briefly explain a couple of things. Yes I'm white British, and used the King James version of the Bible as a Christian. Have never read the Catholic version, maybe I should, and then maybe it'll be more fair to discuss the Bible truths?

It does seem to be the way that with Christianity you are free to ask as many questions as you care to ask. I searched many denominations. But thats a long story.

As with regards to Islam I wouldnt like to give a definate answer . I have to admit I dont understand a great deal that is discussed on IC or anywhere else. I do as much reading as I can, and mull it over in my mind. I have no doubt that many muslims cannot understand me. There are some very helpful muslims here however that try to explain in a simple manner. So I appreciate that. I also get het up from time to time, and try hard not to express here, as it wouldnt be the right thing to do. Mine is a complicated story on the whole. As I am on my own I have a lot of time to wonder about life and God/Allah. But I am more than satisfied to know that He is the same for me now as when I was a Christian. He doesnt change at all for me. He understands everything about me,and that is such a comfort.

I understand you well on your above comments

I'll return here on Monday. I wish you an enjoyable w/end.

[QUOTE=Anatolian]Who cares if it's not St. James version? Does it really matter? Will you sit
here and demonize this wonderfull message? What are you getting at?

most of the bible is Gods word as it says in the Quran, however even a very small change in Gods bible can have profound effect with meaning over the centuries.

as an example would you say Bush Blair and Hitler who all say they were believing Christians will go to heaven because Jesus paid for there sins.

or do you think bush and Blair did nothing wrong as Christians

I think what is confusing is the fact that the bible continually is being altered.

Anatolian, the bible verses you have written down for us are not of The Bible St James version. The one you have quoted from has been interpreted differently, and so can change the meaning of the original St James version. (The original version is also not complete and has many authors)Surely many Christians then are confused with so many versions circulating? Perhaps it is the cause for misunderstanding amongst Christian leaders/politicans? Oscar you said 'if the Christian west cant even see what they did was wrong what bible have they been reading. I dont know which version/s they were reading to be honest.

The Quran however, has never been altered. (Seekshidayath also pointed this out, as have others)It has only been translated into other languages so others can understand it. There is a big difference bewteen translation and alteration. Christians tell others to not read the Quran. Islam is an easy religion to understand. Christians seem to think that religion must be complicated as they have indeed made it so.

It sure seems that way, doesn't it?  I, for one, am deeply ashamed of the things my current president has done and continues to do in the name of religion.  Hopefully, our next president won't be another religious fanatic.

i am defiantly not demonizing Christianity, my question is very simple why are openly committed Christian leaders (bush Blair) and their majority Christian populations taken part in murder and to this day done nothing to stop Innocent Muslim civilians deaths, or admit their behavior was immoral according to the bible, or do they still think they were right to do so like in a recent TV interview with Blair.

if the Christian west cant even see what they did was wrong what bible have they been reading. is there a verse in the bible that says create lies about a another nation and there religion and then bomb them until they accept democracy